Why Does KG Get a Pass For Minnesota?

[knickswin]

I know this comes up all the time here, and I'm not a KG hater by any means. I love his skill and his intelligence on the court, and prime KG would be one of my choices for best second option to put next to Carmelo.

But

How does this dude get a pass for winning TWO playoff series in TWELVE years in Minnesota? And honestly, it's not like the two teams he beat were world beaters. Rookie Carmelo + Andre Miller + scrubs and then the Kings after Webber was injured.

I am not saying there weren't good reasons for him losing some of those series. Most of the time his teams were less talented. That's fine. Very few players could overcome that. But I feel like at some point he has to be held accountable for this. At some point we have to distinguish between him and the players who were able to put their teams over the top. I consider Barkley and Dirk to be better than him because at certain points in their careers they put in some TRANSCENDENT performances in the playoffs. KG didn't really do that.

Let me slip some Carmelo homerism in here. Carmelo had a pretty similar career in Denver. He got out of the first round once (in fewer years though). Many people wouldn't even put Carmelo on a list of top 10 small forwards of all time, while many people would have put Garnett on a top 5 power forward list of all time before he even went to Boston. Some would even call him the best power forward of all time now and many say he's top 2-3. Makes no sense to me.

I remember that idiot Kelly Dwyer put him above Kobe on his top players of the 2000s list. I mean, come on.

[knickswin]

and please don't turn this into the 10th KG versus Dirk thread. I know I mentioned Dirk in my post, but I would rather focus mostly on KG.

[Kurosawa0]

Because his supporting cast in Minnesota makes LeBron's in Cleveland look like the 1960's Celtics.

[brisbaneman]

Because he's black, thats why.

[brisbaneman]

Because his supporting cast in Minnesota makes LeBron's in Cleveland look like the 1960's Celtics.

Nah not at all. And you can easily argue that that cast is what enabled him to post his monster stats.

[Yung D-Will]

Give kg Melo's 04 team and he goes to the finals.

[knickswin]

Give kg Melo's 04 team and he goes to the finals.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. Carmelo's 04 team was not very good. They had Andre Miller, Voshon Leonard, and 2nd year Nene as their best players after Carmelo. I don't understand why one would think that KG + that cast would get by the Lakers that year. The Timberwolves probably had a better team that year with Cassell, Sprewell as heady vets who were also capable scorers.

The only thing KG has proven in his career is that he can win a championship with a great supporting cast. He has never proven otherwise. Again, this isn't a BAD thing per se. Most players couldn't have done what he's done. But I don't understand why there's a perception that he's proven himself capable of dragging an average supporting cast to the finals let alone a championship. He has not.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

:facepalm

[Yung D-Will]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. Carmelo's 04 team was not very good. They had Andre Miller, Voshon Leonard, and 2nd year Nene as their best players after Carmelo. I don't understand why one would think that KG + that cast would get by the Lakers that year. The Timberwolves probably had a better team that year with Cassell, Sprewell as heady vets who were also capable scorers.

The only thing KG has proven in his career is that he can win a championship with a great supporting cast. He has never proven otherwise. Again, this isn't a BAD thing per se. Most players couldn't have done what he's done. But I don't understand why there's a perception that he's proven himself capable of dragging an average supporting cast to the finals let alone a championship. He has not.

Opps wrong team I think I was referring to 05/06. Anyhow I'm convinced if it wasn't for the late injuries the T-Wolves would have made it to the finals that year and beat the pistons but this is all speculation.

[Rake2204]

I guess the question would be: how did Kevin Garnett perform in the playoffs? I have to be honest and say I didn't always pay attention to exactly what KG was doing come playoff time. There were a lot of other teams I was thinking about instead. If KG was KG (which is to say, an all-time power forward doing nasty things) and his teams still lost, there's not a lot left he could have done.

Just looking at one year randomly, while understanding this won't represent his entire Minnesota tenure, the '01 Garnett averaged 21, 12, and 4 in a four game loss to San Antonio. In this one particular year, I don't see how he could be held personally accountable for not escaping the first round. KG's battling Tim Duncan and David Robinson inside. Who's picking up the slack for Minny? Well there's Terrell Brandon and 23 year old Wally Szczerbiak. But then that gives way to Anthony Peeler, Felipe Lopez, LaPhonso Ellis, and Dean Garrett. My apologies, but I don't think anyone's going to win much with a team like that.

Often, we'll hear the line "Well, the greats can put their teams on their back and carry them when needed". I find that oftentimes to be true, but only if the team is somewhat capable in the first place. Great players can't always just magically boost their scoring averages by 10 points per game come playoff time. There has to be weapons everywhere on that team to allow a player to operate. If I'm San Antonio in '01, why would I concentrate on anyone else besides KG? Is 26% shooting Anthony Peeler going to spread the floor?

Again, 2001 is just a sample and I'm not suggesting this story duplicates itself every year KG went down in round 1. However, I don't find it to be a coincidence that KG began experiencing playoff success once a real-deal team began coming together up there. Unfortunately, the real players Minny acquired happened to be in their early to mid 30's, which led to a very, very short window for success. I always got the feeling Kevin Garnett did everything he possibly could to succeed for that team. This doesn't mean he always played awesomely in the playoffs. Rather, I just feel the losses had more to do with his team than it did with him personally.

[BankShot]

Because of illegal contract negotiations with Joe Smith, the NBA revoked 5 first round draft picks, which should have been the surrounding cast to grow with Kevin Garnett

[knickswin]

Opps wrong team I think I was referring to 05/06. Anyhow I'm convinced if it wasn't for the late injuries the T-Wolves would have made it to the finals that year and beat the pistons but this is all speculation.
I believe the 06 Nuggets were even worse. They started some very bad players (I can't even remember their names--they were total scrubs) because of the injuries to Martin, Camby, and Nene.

[Kblaze8855]

Because people have common sense.

[Fatal9]

Have you actually um, looked at the teams he was facing in the first round?

'99 - Duncan/D-Rob championship Spurs team
'00 - 59 win Blazers team that was a quarter away from a championship
'01 - 58 win Spurs team
'02 - 57 win loaded Mavs team with Dirk/Nash/Finley/NVE
'03 - Shaq/Kobe's Lakers who were coming off three straight championships (and it looked like he was gonna upset them for a bit)


You want to let me know how many guys with the rosters KG had are upsetting those teams? All of them were championship quality teams. It's not like it was his fault for getting them a lower seed either. He was leading rosters to 50+ wins when they had no business winning that much, but in the West at the time, winning 50 games might mean a first round matchup with Kobe and Shaq's Laker teams, or Duncan's Spurs or the Mavs.

If you want to see KG's amazing value to his teams, look at his +/- over the years. Take 2003 for example, with KG out/on the bench Wolves were -17.1 points worse. Compare it to other stars at the time: Duncan (-6.2), Dirk (-6.5), Shaq (-5.2) and even someone like T-Mac who played on a terrible team himself (-8.9)...you just wonder how such a difference is even possible. And this is trend you see all decade...his teams are just epically bad without him on the floor. And you can thank the Minny management for making bad moves, forfeiting draft picks from the Joe Smith scandal then the breakup of the '04 core immediately the year after (though that's more Cassell and Spre's fault for getting so greedy).

KG gets a pass because he overachieved at least till like '05 with what he was given in Minny. The one year he did have legit help, he got them #1 seed in a loaded conference and took them to the conference finals where unfortunately the second best player on the Timberwolves (Cassell) got injured. And now people are going to revise history and act like he underachieved...expected, the farther you go away from those years the more details people forget.

[Yung D-Will]

I believe the 06 Nuggets were even worse. They started some very bad players (I can't even remember their names--they were total scrubs) because of the injuries to Martin, Camby, and Nene.

**** lmaooo I'm thinking of a team but I think I'm saying the wrong one, Brb basketball reference

[DaPerceive]

Because people can't accept the fact that KG was never a great #1 option nor a great playoff performer. Garnett and his impact is dependent on his teammates and schemes which is why he never had the capability of carrying a team. You can replace KG with many other all-time greats and they could have at the very least taken them past the 1st round. I am not denying that Garnett's teams were poor because they were, but lets not act like KG himself had nothing to do with it either.

There aren't many players that are better with playing and adapting playing with great teammates and that is an underrated feature. People act like being a 2nd or 3rd option in the NBA is the same as being a 2nd or 3rd option WR in the NFL which is the furthest thing from the truth.

[Kurosawa0]

Nah not at all. And you can easily argue that that cast is what enabled him to post his monster stats.

Yes, you're right. It's ridiculous that KG couldn't win a ring with Ricky Davis and Marko Jaric.

[Rake2204]

But I don't understand why there's a perception that he's proven himself capable of dragging an average supporting cast to the finals let alone a championship. He has not.
I'm torn on this thought. In the case of some greats, there is much potential satisfaction to be had in watching them carry a team of misfits to the cusp of an NBA championship. To be truthful, that's a big part of what I enjoyed about LeBron James in Cleveland. Hometown guy seemingly saying, "This is my team, and now we're going defeat anyone who comes before us." It's a mix of underdog and overdog. Stars going into beast mode and succeeding is entertaining.

However, on the other hand, I'm not super big on proving an ability to drag a horrible team toward success. It's cool, but I don't think every great player has to succeed in such a venture in order to be called great. I feel like it's saying Dale Earnhardt wasn't a great race car driver because he never won Daytona while crossing the finish line with two blown tires. I never had this perception of Garnett carrying an average supporting cast to the NBA Finals because it never happened. But I don't find fault in that.

[knickswin]

I'm torn on this thought. In the case of some greats, there is much potential satisfaction to be had in watching them carry a team of misfits to the cusp of an NBA championship. To be truthful, that's a big part of what I enjoyed about LeBron James in Cleveland. Hometown guy seemingly saying, "This is my team, and now we're going defeat anyone who comes before us." It's a mix of underdog and overdog. Stars going into beast mode and succeeding is entertaining.

However, on the other hand, I'm not super big on proving an ability to drag a horrible team toward success. It's cool, but I don't think every great player has to succeed in such a venture in order to be called great. I feel like it's saying Dale Earnhardt wasn't a great race car driver because he never won Daytona while crossing the finish line with two blown tires. I never had this perception of Garnett carrying an average supporting cast to the NBA Finals because it never happened. But I don't find fault in that.

No, no. I understand. I don't really care about a player's ability to drag an average team to a championships. It is incredible when players do that and I regard the three guys I've witnessed do that very highly (Duncan, Keem, and Dirk), but it isn't the end-all be-all gauge for me. The ability to be a cog in a championship level team is also very important to me.

What I'm saying is, I don't understand why people act like KG would have done that. There's no proof for this. He had some mediocre-average supporting casts and he usually lost in the first round with them.

[Rake2204]

No, no. I understand. I don't really care about a player's ability to drag an average team to a championships. It is incredible when players do that and I regard the three guys I've witnessed do that very highly (Duncan, Keem, and Dirk), but it isn't the end-all be-all gauge for me. The ability to be a cog in a championship level team is also very important to me.

What I'm saying is, I don't understand why people act like KG would have done that. There's no proof for this. He had some mediocre-average supporting casts and he usually lost in the first round with them.
Oh word. We're on the same wavelength then.

[knickswin]

Because people have common sense.

I'm not sure if it's common sense though. Judging him on what he DID rather than what he COULD HAVE or WOULD HAVE or SHOULD HAVE done seems like common sense to me.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I will say that KG's performances often left me questioning if he could win in the playoffs. They usually seemed a bit below his standard except for '03 and '04. When it comes to '03 and '04, I think it was primarily because of casts. His '03 cast wasn't very good, but KG was playing extremely well, even in the playoffs vs the Lakers.

He had the cast to do it in 2004, but Cassell's injury pretty much killed their chances. He did all he could in 2004 and still gave the Lakers a good fight in the WCF.

Missing the playoffs 3 consecutive years for a player of his caliber does seem bad, but those post-'04 Wolves teams were really bad. KG made a big jump around 2000, and that was one of the years he had more help(at the very least due to Terrell Brandon who was one of the best point guards in the game), but they went up against a much better Portland team in the first round. That pretty much sums up '00-'04 when his casts were decent, they always went up against better/more talented teams such as the Spurs in '01, Mavs in '02 and Lakers in '03 and '04. Even in '99, when KG wasn't really in his prime yet, he got to the playoffs, but had to face the champion Spurs in the first round.

For the most part he had his prime wasted, but despite being arguably the most versatile big man I've seen and among the most talented, I also think that KG's game was harder to build around than Duncan or Hakeem for example.

[knickswin]

I mean, maybe if all or most of KG's playoff series were Lebron-versus-the-Magic-in-2009 types where he's putting forth a superhuman effort and his team still loses I could kind of understand. That's not the case though. 20/10ish series are very good, not great. Maybe there's a case for his 2003 series against the Lakers kind of being like that, but they lost in 6 and KG put forth a kind of lame effort in game 6.

[ihatetimthomas]

Because of illegal contract negotiations with Joe Smith, the NBA revoked 5 first round draft picks, which should have been the surrounding cast to grow with Kevin Garnett

People fail to realize this happened. It was actually reduced to 3 first round picks but still, it hurt the WOlves because its not like they had outstanding records so you would think at least one of those guys could have been something for them

[Fatal9]

Let me slip some Carmelo homerism in here. Carmelo had a pretty similar career in Denver. He got out of the first round once (in fewer years though). Many people wouldn't even put Carmelo on a list of top 10 small forwards of all time, while many people would have put Garnett on a top 5 power forward list of all time before he even went to Boston. Some would even call him the best power forward of all time now and many say he's top 2-3. Makes no sense to me.
:facepalm

[NugzHeat3]

:facepalm
I lol'd when I read how "KG would be one of the best second options next to Melo" in the OP.

[knickswin]

I lol'd when I read how "KG would be one of the best second options next to Melo" in the OP.

I mean, KG was the second option to Paul Pierce in Boston, so why is it ridiculous to say he'd be the second scoring option to Carmelo? I don't think it's at all homerish to say that Carmelo is the better scorer. I guess depending on what you value you could make a good case that KG is the better player, though.

[DMV2]

Because of illegal contract negotiations with Joe Smith, the NBA revoked 5 first round draft picks, which should have been the surrounding cast to grow with Kevin Garnett
Was coming in to post Joe Smith... :cheers:

And look at how far they got when Cassell and Spree came in but that didn't last long.

[knickswin]

:facepalm

I am not saying Carmelo > KG. That is not the point. I am saying, I don't understand why it is acceptable to call KG a top 2 power forward of all time while I would be laughed at if I were to call Carmelo a top 10 small forward. There is not a substantial difference between their accomplishments at similar points in their careers.

[Brunch@Five]

Let's see how often KG was the best player in a first round series he lost and what he did in the last game (I admittedly am biased, highlighting his shortcomings. Feel free to do otherwise):

1997: loses in 3 games vs Houston (Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler). Arguably not the best player on his team that series (Marbury). Only 20 years old.

1998: loses in 5 games vs Seattle (Payton/Baker/Schrempf) after being uo 2-1. Payton played better. 7/4/3 with 10 TOs on 3/11 shooting in the decisive game 5. :wtf:

1999: loses in 4 games vs SA (Duncan/DRob). Clearly outplayed by Duncan; Terell Brandon has a pretty good series as his sidekick, averaging 19/8/7. Shoots .300 in game 4 to lose the series (though he had 16 boards and 6 assists).

2000: loses in 4 vs Portland (Sheed, Pippen). Arguably the best player; Portland was known for their team efforts and not having a single star though. Brandon again played exceptionally (20/6/8). KG shoots .250 in game 4 to lose the series.

2001: loses in 4 vs SA. Outplayed by Duncan. His teammates don't step up, has a decent game 4 (19/15/5) but only takes 13 shots (1 more than Wally and Peeler, Brandon takes 17) in 45 minutes.

2002: loses in 3 vs Dallas (Dirk, Fin, Nash). Duel with Dirk, who puts up 33/16 against his 24/19. Lets Dirk erupt for 39/17 in the decisive game 3. Both Billups and Wally have a good series.

2003: loses in 6 vs LA after being up 2-1. Has a great series (27/16/5) and very little help to come up short vs a Laker team with Kobe/Shaq. Shot under .500 the last 4 games, only had 18 on 9/21 in game 6.

2004: first time going past round 1, stopped by the Lakers in 6 in the conference finals after Cassell went down. Ultimately lose game 6 due to Kareem Rushs one good game of his career (hits 6/7 threes)


What do we take from this? Garnett had his fair share of games he choked in. Before 2002, he never put up a great fight in a loss. Couldn't stop top PFs like Duncan and Dirk from getting theirs, despite being hailed for his D. Had his problems putting his team over the top offensively. He didn't step his game up significantly in the playoffs his first 4 or 5 years. He essentially had 4 good playoff runs, and in two of those he still didn't get past the first round. He deserves major props for his WCF run with Minny and the title he won with Boston. Other than that, his playoff resum

[PrimeJohnnyDepp]

I know this comes up all the time here, and I'm not a KG hater by any means. I love his skill and his intelligence on the court, and prime KG would be one of my choices for best second option to put next to Carmelo.



I don't care what stupid people do, i just troll. But Carmelo is not a first option to ****ing prime KG.

[knickswin]

I don't care what stupid people do, i just troll. But Carmelo is not a first option to ****ing prime KG.

As a scoring option, Carmelo is better. I don't think it's even debatable.

[Pointguard]

Because people can't accept the fact that KG was never a great #1 option nor a great playoff performer. Garnett and his impact is dependent on his teammates and schemes which is why he never had the capability of carrying a team.


KG averaged 25ppg 16reb and 5assist over 27 playoff games over three years. While playing every position. Who are we comparing him too???

Maybe yall will name me the other player that lead their team in ppg, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, blocks, assists, steals while being the best offensive, best defensive player, best player at usually three positions, leader, energy man, best in efficiency, minutes played, +/-. I know there is nobody in the history of the game that pulled that off. And he put the team on his back and carried them with a great game seven in that run. And yall question him as a #1 and a performer.

I can also vouch that he played every position except shooting guard offensively. And he guarded every position defensively. All at very high levels. And we are comparing him to Dirk and Barkley who are only points and rebound guys and who only have a comparative run in those categories and are far behind in almost all the other categories? Guys who can't be mentioned in the same breadth as KG in blocks, defense, assist, and versatility.

Do yall come on the boards and forget how the game works. Half of the time on the court KG is usually the best player on the court because of his defense. He had the best combination of rebounds, point and assist of any player at that time. He was the most productive player around. Nobody was going to win with those guys in Minny. They had bad management, bad coaching (at least for their team), bad players, and were playing against great organizations, with superior coaches and players. KG is supposed to bypass all of that?

[Kevin_Gamble]

How does he get a pass? That's all people talked about, how he couldn't get out of the first round.

[DevilsAssassin]

:facepalm
:facepalm :facepalm

[knickswin]

Maybe this summarizes my point well: the best you could say about KG is he lost to the teams he was supposed to lose to and sometimes beat the teams he was supposed to beat.

Again, nothing wrong with this. But there are other players who did more than that. The guys who beat more talented or equally talented teams.

[ShaqAttack3234]

KG averaged 25ppg 16reb and 5assist over 27 playoff games over three years. While playing every position. Who are we comparing him too???

Maybe yall will name me the other player that lead their team in ppg, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, blocks, assists, steals while being the best offensive, best defensive player, best player at usually three positions, leader, energy man, best in efficiency, minutes played, +/-. I know there is nobody in the history of the game that pulled that off. And he put the team on his back and carried them with a great game seven in that run. And yall question him as a #1 and a performer.

I can also vouch that he played every position except shooting guard offensively. And he guarded every position defensively. All at very high levels. And we are comparing him to Dirk and Barkley who are only points and rebound guys and who only have a comparative run in those categories and are far behind in almost all the other categories? Guys who can't be mentioned in the same breadth as KG in blocks, defense, assist, and versatility.

I get what you're saying, but as far as Barkley. He actually was comparable to KG as far as assists. He had seasons of 5.1, 4.9, 4.7 and two of 4.2. Averaged 3.9 for his career.

KG was a much better defender than Barkley, but it's also true that KG can't be mentioned in the same breath as Barkley as a scorer or overall offensive force. And I value that a lot. It made Barkley a more unstoppable player and a guy I'd rather have in the playoffs, despite his flaws defensively. Though most who watched both would agree that Barkley was also a better rebounder despite the stats having them equal.

As far as Dirk vs KG, well, the only area they're comparable in is scoring, and I do rank KG over Dirk, but Dirk being a superior go to guy and scorer probably does have something to do with Dirk's superior team success, as well as him of course having better teams than KG did before going to Boston. But while the early 00's Mavs were loaded with offensive talent, the '06 and '11 Mavs were contenders primarily due to Dirk's great offensive ability. I think that shows that some underestimate how important being a legit first option scorer is.

[Fatal9]

Though most who watched both would agree that Barkley was also a better rebounder despite the stats having them equal.
Depends on what end. Barkley much better offensive rebounder. There are times during his prime years where I wonder why he doesn't exert the same effort on the defensive boards (or defense overall)...drb% floated around 20% in his prime which isn't that impressive (amaresque). KG much better defensive rebounder, he usually didn't get in position to get offensive rebounds like Barkley, partly because of where he played on offense.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Depends on what end. Barkley much better offensive rebounder. There are times during his prime years where I wonder he doesn't exert the same effort on the defensive boards...drb% floated around 20% in his prime which isn't that impressive (amaresque). KG much better defensive rebounder, he usually didn't get in position to get offensive rebounds like Barkley, partly because of where he played on offense.

Yeah, but more defensive rebounds go uncontested, though that's true that KG shooting more fadeaways and 18-20 footers while Barkley attacked the basket more and went to more power moves closer to the basket had something to do with that. Barkley's rebounding looked more impressive to me, part of that has to do with height, but he also seemed to get more tough, contested rebounds.

[Fatal9]

I consider Barkley and Dirk to be better than him because at certain points in their careers they put in some TRANSCENDENT performances in the playoffs. KG didn't really do that.
I hope you realize that Barkley spent his Sixers career mainly playing and losing to teams much worse than the ones KG faced (is KG all of a sudden a better player if he plays in the East and gets to face 40 win teams instead of championship level teams?), sometimes in the first round (provided they made the playoffs) and then spent his Suns career losing to teams his teams were supposed to beat. You're getting on KG for beating "only" the Kings in '04...okay. So how many teams did Barkley beat in his entire Sixers/Suns career that won more than 50 games? ONE. And that was the '93 Sonics which weren't as good as those Kings teams (were too out of control/unstructured...could win and lose to anyone). So why are you not giving Barkley the same treatment...instead he is "trancendent".

Dirk probably has had a better playoff career now than both of them, but he spent an entire decade having much more help than KG and losing to the teams on the same level as the ones KG lost to (Duncan's Spurs, Kings...yea, the same Kings team that Dirk had trouble advancing against but you dismiss as being not that great for some reason when KG beats them), only difference being he generally got to face those type of teams in the later rounds. Unless of course you think Dirk on KG's Wolves teams is leading them to better records...which would mean leading them to 50 or more wins with half the offensive talent he was surrounded with on the Mavs. So either losing to those teams...or teams he had no reason for losing to (Warriors, Heat). It took 11 years after putting Dirk together with everything from all-star PGs to all-star SGs to all-star SFs, to some of the deepest rosters in the league, to finally get to what we have now (a team basically custom built to complement his game and makeup for all the things he can't provide).

And while it may come across as I dislike Dirk/Barkley in this post, I don't...generally rank them much higher than most people (top 15 usually for Barkley, top 20 for Dirk). OP just needs some perspective.

[kumquat]

Have you actually um, looked at the teams he was facing in the first round?

'99 - Duncan/D-Rob championship Spurs team
'00 - 59 win Blazers team that was a quarter away from a championship
'01 - 58 win Spurs team
'02 - 57 win loaded Mavs team with Dirk/Nash/Finley/NVE
'03 - Shaq/Kobe's Lakers who were coming off three straight championships (and it looked like he was gonna upset them for a bit)


After looking at that list, i'm not surprised he didn't get out of the first round. That's a few of the most stacked teams of all time.

[Pointguard]

I get what you're saying, but as far as Barkley. He actually was comparable to KG as far as assists. He had seasons of 5.1, 4.9, 4.7 and two of 4.2. Averaged 3.9 for his career.

Comparable, not the same level, tho. 6, 5.7, 5.2, 5, 5 rebs for KG. One more assist per game at that position is big: like 2 per game if they were pg.


KG was a much better defender than Barkley, but it's also true that KG can't be mentioned in the same breath as Barkley as a scorer or overall offensive force. And I value that a lot. It made Barkley a more unstoppable player and a guy I'd rather have in the playoffs, despite his flaws defensively. Though most who watched both would agree that Barkley was also a better rebounder despite the stats having them equal.
To me, KG was a better rebounder because he wasn't moody, and we know if KG dedicated himself to rebounding, like Barkley did, the distance would have been greater than already was. Barkley wasn't playing defense either. Barkley looked dominant rebounding because it was rare to see him use his energy outside of scoring and made his rebounds look dynamic. :lol KG was leading his team in nearly output category and still averaged more than Barkley who dedicated himself to only two things. As I mention many times before here, KG was frequently out of position (sometimes guarding, SF and even SG or just doing doing hardcore help defense) and he still lead the league in boards.

Out of Barkley, KG and Dirk which is the only player to crack top three in the scoring race? And he did it while leading the league in rebounds, win share and PER. Already you know who it is by description. I didn't have to say he lead all forwards in assist or that he was first team all defense and lead his team in blocks, FG%, FTA steals and not TO's. I have no question in my mind on a team where his responsibilities were a more shared reality, I think his scoring goes up a notch. And that puts him in the Barkley and Dirk tier, who never were top of the heap scorers like KG was as a rebounder and defender and passer in the front court.


As far as Dirk vs KG, well, the only area they're comparable in is scoring, and I do rank KG over Dirk, but Dirk being a superior go to guy and scorer probably does have something to do with Dirk's superior team success, as well as him of course having better teams than KG did before going to Boston. But while the early 00's Mavs were loaded with offensive talent, the '06 and '11 Mavs were contenders primarily due to Dirk's great offensive ability. I think that shows that some underestimate how important being a legit first option scorer is.

Really, you think its more important than great defense, rebounding and scoring?

I give Dirk plenty of credit for what he accomplished those years. Stellar, in fact. KG had a bad organization, bad GM, bad coach for his abilities, not much talent, badly constructed teams and was playing against teams that were rank in those categories straight across the board. Historically you need those factors as above all else. And every championship had at least two of the categories without exception. A great majority had all five.

I gurantee you that if a team had to have Dirk or Barkley as their team leader in seven categories (blocks, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, points, FTA, steals, PER) and top 2 or 3 in assist while being the top defender - like KG was doing for five years, they would be last place teams every year without fail.

[knickswin]

and please don't turn this into the 10th KG versus Dirk thread. I know I mentioned Dirk in my post, but I would rather focus mostly on KG.

hmmm, good idea

[305Baller]

Kevin McHale did not get a pass.

[brisbaneman]

Yes, you're right. It's ridiculous that KG couldn't win a ring with Ricky Davis and Marko Jaric.

I never said his cast was good. I said that it helped him to put up stats since every open rebound went to him and his assists went up since he never had a dominant PG like Dirk has had in his career.

If he played alongside a guy like Perkins he would average around 8-10 rebs/game much like he does in Boston, although it's more like 7-8 in Boston if I recall.

[ballup]

I never said his cast was good. I said that it helped him to put up stats since every open rebound went to him and his assists went up since he never had a dominant PG like Dirk has had in his career.

If he played alongside a guy like Perkins he would average around 8-10 rebs/game much like he does in Boston, although it's more like 7-8 in Boston if I recall.
Same can be said of many players and their career high in stats. Dwight Howard has had such high rebounding numbers because the next best rebounder on his team are either 3s forced to be 4s, undersized 4s, or his backups.

[magnax1]

As far as Dirk vs KG, well, the only area they're comparable in is scoring, and I do rank KG over Dirk, but Dirk being a superior go to guy and scorer probably does have something to do with Dirk's superior team success, as well as him of course having better teams than KG did before going to Boston. But while the early 00's Mavs were loaded with offensive talent, the '06 and '11 Mavs were contenders primarily due to Dirk's great offensive ability. I think that shows that some underestimate how important being a legit first option scorer is.
If that was true I think you'd see a lot more guys who are scorers and can't do much else winning championships. Actually, the only scorer like that who's won is Dirk. Most every star that wins a championship can do multiple things as well as almost anyone at his position. Just from looking at past examples, I think it's quite apparent that being able to impact the game in multiple ways is as important as being a great scorer.

[Smoke117]

Because people have common sense.

The Voice of reason. KG didn't have shit put around him for the majority of his stay in Minnesota and a lot of it goes to Kevin Mchale and his under handed heals ****ing them over and losing them all those first picks. Either way Minnesota KG was never given the support he deserved, period.

[Myth]

Why is Carmelo being compared to KG in this thread? KG was ridiculously diverse in his prime. Melo is a great scorer and is decent at a couple other things. The 2 don't compare.

[knickswin]

Why is Carmelo being compared to KG in this thread? KG was ridiculously diverse in his prime. Melo is a great scorer and is decent at a couple other things. The 2 don't compare.

I'm not comparing them as players. It's too early in Carmelo's career to do that now and they're such different players it probably will never be a satisfying discussion.

I am just making the point that their early career success levels are very similar, but KG is a consensus top 5 power forward of all time (and I don't dispute that; he's at worst 6th in my book) and in some people's books as high as the third or second or even best PF of all time, while most people don't include Carmelo in even their list of top 10 small forwards. I just don't get what KG did to let him be considered great despite his failures while other players aren't given that luxury.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Comparable, not the same level, tho. 6, 5.7, 5.2, 5, 5 rebs for KG. One more assist per game at that position is big: like 2 per game if they were pg.

Yeah, KG's assist numbers were better, but my point was only that they were comparable after you said couldn't be mentioned in the same breath. Not that assist numbers prove who was the better passer either way, though I wouldn't argue with someone calling KG better in that area.


Out of Barkley, KG and Dirk which is the only player to crack top three in the scoring race? And he did it while leading the league in rebounds, win share and PER. Already you know who it is by description. I didn't have to say he lead all forwards in assist or that he was first team all defense and lead his team in blocks, FG%, FTA steals and not TO's. I have no question in my mind on a team where his responsibilities were a more shared reality, I think his scoring goes up a notch. And that puts him in the Barkley and Dirk tier, who never were top of the heap scorers like KG was as a rebounder and defender and passer in the front court.

Well, being top 3 in scoring in '04 had a lot to do with it being a strange year. KG only finished top 10 two other times and he was 9th and 10th in those years. In '04, you had Shaq and Kobe sharing the ball with Malone and Payton, Kobe not being healthy until the second half due to offseason knee surgery, Shaq declining as well as Allen Iverson not playing enough games to qualify for the scoring title. Those 3 had regularly been among the top 5 scorers. So it was an odd year in that regard as evidenced by Peja Stojakovic finishing 2nd in scoring when he had never finished top 10 in any other year.

As far as win shares and PER, well, no offense, but as soon as I start seeing arguments like that, I start tuning the numbers out. PER isn't that bad, just pretty useless and subjective to me, while win shares is a really bad stat, imo.

Barkley may have never finished top 3 in scoring, but he was top 5 three times, and regularly finishing much higher than KG in other years and top 10 every season from '88-'95 while being much more efficient most of those years, even relative to the league.

And in '91, he was averaging around 30 up until midseason and challenging Jordan for the scoring title. But injuries lowered his numbers to 28 per game.

I'm not sure about KG's scoring going up a notch. He had the potential to be better than he was, but he relied too much on the fadeaway, tried to play too much like a perimeter player and didn't attack the basket enough to truly reach his potential as a scorer, imo. That's not to say that he wasn't a good scorer, just not as good as Dirk or Barkley in that regard.


Really, you think its more important than great defense, rebounding and scoring?

It depends. With Barkley you get the rebounding as well as the much more dominant scoring than KG, but without anywhere near the defense. But KG's defense is tough to evaluate in terms of impact because he wasn't as much of an anchor as shot blocking centers like Hakeem/Robinson who were almost guarantees that you'd have a good defensive team. Maybe Duncan as well(though he always had a really good defensive system and defensive teammates) and to a lesser extent, Ben Wallace, Dwight ect.


I give Dirk plenty of credit for what he accomplished those years. Stellar, in fact. KG had a bad organization, bad GM, bad coach for his abilities, not much talent, badly constructed teams and was playing against teams that were rank in those categories straight across the board. Historically you need those factors as above all else. And every championship had at least two of the categories without exception. A great majority had all five.

I agree with you that KG didn't really have much of a chance to win titles in his prime, though the same could be said for prime Barkley outside of '93. I think they're similar in that regard.


I gurantee you that if a team had to have Dirk or Barkley as their team leader in seven categories (blocks, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, points, FTA, steals, PER) and top 2 or 3 in assist while being the top defender - like KG was doing for five years, they would be last place teams every year without fail.

Well, they all had different skill sets, and I agree that they couldn't have done everything that KG did, neither could have helped transform Boston into a dominant defensive team either. But I watched KG for a long time and I never saw him consistently show the scoring ability that Dirk or especially Barkley did, so it's not like KG gives you everything that they did.

Dirk is the most one-dimensional out of the 3, and I rank him below the other 2. With Barkley vs KG, it's pretty much Barkley's considerable offensive advantage vs KG's considerable advantage defensively. Depends on what you value more.


If that was true I think you'd see a lot more guys who are scorers and can't do much else winning championships. Actually, the only scorer like that who's won is Dirk. Most every star that wins a championship can do multiple things as well as almost anyone at his position. Just from looking at past examples, I think it's quite apparent that being able to impact the game in multiple ways is as important as being a great scorer.

Yeah, though what you also get with Dirk's scoring(and a lot of great scorers in general) is that they make the game easier on teammates, provided they aren't a ball stopper or chucker, and Dirk is neither.

It's true that most number 1 options on championship teams are more well rounded than Dirk, but most are also better scorers than KG. KG did win one as the best player on his own team(though Pierce was more of the first option), though I also think that KG was capable of winning as the first option offensively for what it's worth. Just pointing out that while most players who win titles as the man are more well rounded than Dirk, most are also better scorers than KG.

[Myth]

I'm not comparing them as players. It's too early in Carmelo's career to do that now and they're such different players it probably will never be a satisfying discussion.

I am just making the point that their early career success levels are very similar, but KG is a consensus top 5 power forward of all time (and I don't dispute that; he's at worst 6th in my book) and in some people's books as high as the third or second or even best PF of all time, while most people don't include Carmelo in even their list of top 10 small forwards. I just don't get what KG did to let him be considered great despite his failures while other players aren't given that luxury.

Their team success was comparable, but just looking at individual success: KG >> Melo (because of his versatility). KG was viewed as a top 5 PF because he could score, rebound, and defend on elite levels. Melo is often not included in the top 10 of some because scoring is the only elite thing about him.

[greensborohill]

KG is John Stockton, he's a top 5 all-time 2nd fiddle (in his case, in regards to scoring, in Stockton's case in regards to facilitation). He can be your best overall player, but if he has to be your #1 scoring option don't expect any titles.

This is why I would not build a team around KG b/c it is more difficult to get a #1 scoring option to couple with him (Pierce) then it would be to find defensive minded players to fill roles.

[ballup]

KG is John Stockton, he's a top 5 all-time 2nd fiddle (in his case, in regards to scoring, in Stockton's case in regards to facilitation). He can be your best overall player, but if he has to be your #1 scoring option don't expect any titles.

This is why I would not build a team around KG b/c it is more difficult to get a #1 scoring option to couple with him (Pierce) then it would be to find defensive minded players to fill roles.
Finding someone like KG is much harder than finding someone like Pierce.

[Bigsmoke]

Have you actually um, looked at the teams he was facing in the first round?

'99 - Duncan/D-Rob championship Spurs team
'00 - 59 win Blazers team that was a quarter away from a championship
'01 - 58 win Spurs team
'02 - 57 win loaded Mavs team with Dirk/Nash/Finley/NVE
'03 - Shaq/Kobe's Lakers who were coming off three straight championships (and it looked like he was gonna upset them for a bit)


You want to let me know how many guys with the rosters KG had are upsetting those teams? All of them were championship quality teams. It's not like it was his fault for getting them a lower seed either. He was leading rosters to 50+ wins when they had no business winning that much, but in the West at the time, winning 50 games might mean a first round matchup with Kobe and Shaq's Laker teams, or Duncan's Spurs or the Mavs.

If you want to see KG's amazing value to his teams, look at his +/- over the years. Take 2003 for example, with KG out/on the bench Wolves were -17.1 points worse. Compare it to other stars at the time: Duncan (-6.2), Dirk (-6.5), Shaq (-5.2) and even someone like T-Mac who played on a terrible team himself (-8.9)...you just wonder how such a difference is even possible. And this is trend you see all decade...his teams are just epically bad without him on the floor. And you can thank the Minny management for making bad moves, forfeiting draft picks from the Joe Smith scandal then the breakup of the '04 core immediately the year after (though that's more Cassell and Spre's fault for getting so greedy).

KG gets a pass because he overachieved at least till like '05 with what he was given in Minny. The one year he did have legit help, he got them #1 seed in a loaded conference and took them to the conference finals where unfortunately the second best player on the Timberwolves (Cassell) got injured. And now people are going to revise history and act like he underachieved...expected, the farther you go away from those years the more details people forget.

You have to blame KG a little bit for getting all that money

$28,000,000? :hammerhead:

[rmt]

You have to blame KG a little bit for getting all that money

$28,000,000? :hammerhead:

He made his choice - money over a better chance to win. People can claim loyalty all they want but he signed with MIN 3 times - the second time one can see with but the third? What's that - stupidity (can't see incompetent FO) or greed? I don't see KG as stupid.

Please note that I don't blame a player for making all he can as a career is very limited and anything can happen. But he made a ton on his second contract and you can't have everything - something's got to give including money to surround a franchise player with good role players. In the end, it affects his legacy (didn't win in his prime years).

[Fatal9]

KG was the scoring leader on the Celtics in the '08 playoffs...and would have led them in regular season if he didn't play less minutes than Pierce.

and KG doesn't really have trouble creating his own shot, he has go to moves, the baseline shake and fade he had was pretty effective and unblockable (doesn't get same release height on it anymore). KG was a way better scorer than people are selling him as in these threads lately. His problem was not ability, he was too unselfish. If he plays the same exact way but with more talented teammates (*cough* like the Mavs *cough*), we're lauding him for playing the way he did. lol @ the thought that KG is difficult to built around, get him ONE all-star caliber perimeter player and a defensive minded coach and you've got yourself a contender. It's the reason why it's amazing to see Minny screw up the way they did because you really don't need THAT much to build a contending team around KG. Even in '04...how many guys are getting you a #1 seed with Cassell (very good) and a 33 year old Sprewel (replaceable chucker by that point)? Outside of that the team depth consisted of Olowokandi/Hoidberg/Hudson/Hassell/Madsen. Explain to me which power forwards other than Duncan are doing more with what he was given, and which one of his rosters they are leading to championships.

It's a shame that this sort of a narrative has taken a hold of his career and ignores everything else he did on the court.

[Ikill]

I don't care what stupid people do, i just troll. But Carmelo is not a first option to ****ing prime KG.
Yes he would be. Carmelo is easily the better scorer

[Carbine]

He gets a pass because nobody in their right mind thought he had the type of roster around him to even make it out of the second round, let alone win a title.

The biggest beef I have with Garnett in Minnesota is him missing the playoffs three straight years during his prime years. He should not get a pass for that.

[Fatal9]

Melo would also put up higher scoring averages if he played on a team with Walton, Duncan, Russell, Magic, every Pistons team that has won a championship and so on. Point is? And he might score more than KG but he wouldn't be a better offensive player (KG would be first option in the sense that the ball would go through him more).

[NugzHeat3]

I don't think KG has trouble creating his own shot either. I think its part unselfishness as well as the fact that he doesn't have the right body type (mainly strength and frame) for a dominant back to basket game.

He doesn't quite seal his man and establish position as deep as Duncan for example. I'd say that's why he plays further from the rim, is more of a jumpshooter and operates more in the high post.

[Smoke117]

KG was the scoring leader on the Celtics in the '08 playoffs...and would have led them in regular season if he didn't play less minutes than Pierce.

and KG doesn't really have trouble creating his own shot, he has go to moves, the baseline shake and fade he had was pretty effective and unblockable (doesn't get same release height on it anymore). KG was a way better scorer than people are selling him as in these threads lately. His problem was not ability, he was too unselfish. If he plays the same exact way but with more talented teammates (*cough* like the Mavs *cough*), we're lauding him for playing the way he did. lol @ the thought that KG is difficult to built around, get him ONE all-star caliber perimeter player and a defensive minded coach and you've got yourself a contender. It's the reason why it's amazing to see Minny screw up the way they did because you really don't need THAT much to build a contending team around KG. Even in '04...how many guys are getting you a #1 seed with Cassell (very good) and a 33 year old Sprewel (replaceable chucker by that point)? Outside of that the team depth consisted of Olowokandi/Hoidberg/Hudson/Hassell/Madsen. Explain to me which power forwards other than Duncan are doing more with what he was given, and which one of his rosters they are leading to championships.

It's a shame that this sort of a narrative has taken a hold of his career and ignores everything else he did on the court.

Eh, KG was immensely HOT in the 08 playoffs but his turn around has always been hot and cold. He's clearly worked on his game, but comparing his turn around to say Rasheed Wallace...you can clearly tell the difference in how effortless it is for Sheed and now natural his shot is compared to KG's. I really don't think he was ever a great first option. He probably really should never be a first option prime or not, but in his more athletic years he was a lot more dangerous, but his bread and butter was that turn around and he could be incredibly streaky with it. During that series vs the Pistons, Rasheed Wallace (who was still probably the best one on one defensive player in the post even at 33 at that time) played great defense on him, but the turn around was just on that entire series and he tore the Pistons up. Again though...that's not always the case, that turn around is streaky as hell...he just happened to have it going in the playoffs in 08 thank god.

[Ikill]

Melo would also put up higher scoring averages if he played on a team with Walton, Duncan, Russell, Magic, every Pistons team that has won a championship and so on. Point is? And he might score more than KG but he wouldn't be a better offensive player (KG would be first option in the sense that the ball would go through him more).
:wtf: Why would the offence run through KG makes no sense

[Pointguard]

Well, being top 3 in scoring in '04 had a lot to do with it being a strange year. KG only finished top 10 two other times and he was 9th and 10th in those years. In '04, you had Shaq and Kobe sharing the ball with Malone and Payton, Kobe not being healthy until the second half due to offseason knee surgery, Shaq declining as well as Allen Iverson not playing enough games to qualify for the scoring title. Those 3 had regularly been among the top 5 scorers. So it was an odd year in that regard as evidenced by Peja Stojakovic finishing 2nd in scoring when he had never finished top 10 in any other year.
Last year wasn't a strange year??? Its not so much what KG did as much as Dirk and Barkley didn't do. Dirk had a top five career scoring year the previous year '03 the year before. To say there is a lot of separation in scoring isn't so. Dirk and Barkley were never elite scorers to me. Neither were like Durant the past two years.


As far as win shares and PER, well, no offense, but as soon as I start seeing arguments like that, I start tuning the numbers out. PER isn't that bad, just pretty useless and subjective to me, while win shares is a really bad stat, imo.
I think you tuned the numbers out because you don't have an angle. I mentioned like 10 points of production... if you are stuck on two it's because ??? I mentioned it because it shows the vastness, pervasiveness and thoroughness of his play. To neglect 10 points because you dislike 2 isn’t going to get us any where.


I'm not sure about KG's scoring going up a notch. He had the potential to be better than he was, but he relied too much on the fadeaway, tried to play too much like a perimeter player and didn't attack the basket enough to truly reach his potential as a scorer, imo. That's not to say that he wasn't a good scorer, just not as good as Dirk or Barkley in that regard.
I don't know how you can discount him tho? KG is the only 7 footer that you can come with 7 or eight data points to lead the team with and he could do it. Priorities and lack of structure didn't demand that he channel as much energy into scoring. With more structure, focus and emphasis on scoring on the blocks, KG would have to go up one notch. KG was one of the games best learners. He came in raw and without college to help him out. Within six years he was the most versatile 7 footer ever.


It depends. With Barkley you get the rebounding as well as the much more dominant scoring than KG, but without anywhere near the defense. But KG's defense is tough to evaluate in terms of impact because he wasn't as much of an anchor as shot blocking centers like Hakeem/Robinson who were almost guarantees that you'd have a good defensive team. Maybe Duncan as well(though he always had a really good defensive system and defensive teammates) and to a lesser extent, Ben Wallace, Dwight ect.

KG played defense with his feet which made him a bit different. KG, under Thibes was more of a defensive anchor than any center I ever seen. KG was in the back calling every shift and players rarely penetrated into the lane. Kobe, had a habit of dunking on Duncan, but rarely got to the rim in the half court sets against Boston. Defense at the rim is a considered a breakdown. If KG had defensive players that moved their feet well, his defense, because of his communication, would be better than the guys you mentioned. In most of the other situations they would be better than KG. Communication, or knowing where your players are is the highest level of defense in all major sports. No exception here.

[RRR3]

KG was the scoring leader on the Celtics in the '08 playoffs...and would have led them in regular season if he didn't play less minutes than Pierce.

and KG doesn't really have trouble creating his own shot, he has go to moves, the baseline shake and fade he had was pretty effective and unblockable (doesn't get same release height on it anymore). KG was a way better scorer than people are selling him as in these threads lately. His problem was not ability, he was too unselfish. If he plays the same exact way but with more talented teammates (*cough* like the Mavs *cough*), we're lauding him for playing the way he did. lol @ the thought that KG is difficult to built around, get him ONE all-star caliber perimeter player and a defensive minded coach and you've got yourself a contender. It's the reason why it's amazing to see Minny screw up the way they did because you really don't need THAT much to build a contending team around KG. Even in '04...how many guys are getting you a #1 seed with Cassell (very good) and a 33 year old Sprewel (replaceable chucker by that point)? Outside of that the team depth consisted of Olowokandi/Hoidberg/Hudson/Hassell/Madsen. Explain to me which power forwards other than Duncan are doing more with what he was given, and which one of his rosters they are leading to championships.

It's a shame that this sort of a narrative has taken a hold of his career and ignores everything else he did on the court.

:applause: :applause: :applause: (repped)

[Pointguard]

Yeah, though what you also get with Dirk's scoring(and a lot of great scorers in general) is that they make the game easier on teammates, provided they aren't a ball stopper or chucker, and Dirk is neither.

It's true that most number 1 options on championship teams are more well rounded than Dirk, but most are also better scorers than KG. KG did win one as the best player on his own team(though Pierce was more of the first option), though I also think that KG was capable of winning as the first option offensively for what it's worth. Just pointing out that while most players who win titles as the man are more well rounded than Dirk, most are also better scorers than KG.
The most impressive winner post Jordan era was TD. And he's just like KG, in fact you couldn't tell who is who if I just gave you stats until you said block or assist - otherwise they were very similar. TD's team, organization, coach and team design was always much better than Minny.

Both TD and KG could have scored more but they didn't push the issue and definitely were a notch away from being Barkley and Dirk type scorers.

[ballup]

:wtf: Why would the offence run through KG makes no sense
Why not? Big men are very viable options as the focal point on offense. With KG's range and passing, it's not so far fetched as you might think it would be.

[knickswin]

Melo would also put up higher scoring averages if he played on a team with Walton, Duncan, Russell, Magic, every Pistons team that has won a championship and so on. Point is? And he might score more than KG but he wouldn't be a better offensive player (KG would be first option in the sense that the ball would go through him more).

Why would the ball go through KG? The ball went through Shaq and Duncan and those other centers (except Russell, he wasn't even a good scorer) because they played very close to the basket. A fade-away from KG is not the same as that. I am not saying KG would never be a high post facilitator or something like that, but him shooting a fade-away from outside the mid or high post would not be the team's first option on offense.

[RRR3]

Why would the ball go through KG? The ball went through Shaq and Duncan and those other centers (except Russell, he wasn't even a good scorer) because they played very close to the basket. A fade-away from KG is not the same as that. I am not saying KG would never be a high post facilitator or something like that, but him shooting a fade-away from outside the mid or high post would not be the team's first option on offense.

Because no one wants Melo to run the offense? :lol

[vinsanity2756]

Why would the ball go through KG? The ball went through Shaq and Duncan and those other centers (except Russell, he wasn't even a good scorer) because they played very close to the basket. A fade-away from KG is not the same as that. I am not saying KG would never be a high post facilitator or something like that, but him shooting a fade-away from outside the mid or high post would not be the team's first option on offense.
he can do more than shoot fade-aways man come on. he can drive and finish around the basket with a baby hook for example.

[knickswin]

I am probably underselling KG's offensive versatility short a bit here, but the point is that he really doesn't have a strong enough big man game to warrant being the first option to a superior scorer like Carmelo. Again, I'm not saying KG wouldn't be given some play making duties or never touch the ball or anything like that. I'm just saying that the first thing we'd look for coming down the floor would not be to iso KG in the mid post.

[knickswin]

Because no one wants Melo to run the offense? :lol

They would probably share play making duties to some extent just like Pierce, Rondo, and Garnett do in Boston.

[Brunch@Five]

first options turn up their offensive play during the playoffs. KG didnt do that most of the time. Had some huge choke jobs offensively early in his career. Offensive outings like Dirk had against the Heat in 2006 in the finals were the norm for him. KG clearly needed another go-to scorer besides him.

[RRR3]

first options turn up their offensive play during the playoffs. KG didnt do that most of the time. Had some huge choke jobs offensively early in his career. Offensive outings like Dirk had against the Heat in 2006 in the finals were the norm for him. KG clearly needed another go-to scorer besides him.
Age 22-31 Postseason
KG: 22.3/12.7/4.5/1.4/1.6 on .469/.302/.774
TD: 23.6/13.0/3.6/0.7/2.7 on .499/.148/.692

Career Regular Season
KG: 19.5/10.7/4.1/1.3/1.5 with a 23.4 PER on .498/.282/.788
TD: 20.6/11.4/3.1/0.7/2.3 with a 24.8 PER on .508/.182/.688

Career Postseason
KG: 19.6/11.1/3.8/1.3/1.4 with a 21.7 PER on .472/.298/.782
TD: 22.7/12.4/3.4/0.7/2.6 with a 25.4 PER on .502/.167/.678

Career Head-to-Head Regular Season
KG: 20.7/11.2/4.2/1.5/2.0 on .458/.389/.777
TD: 20.1/12.1/3.3/0.5/1.9 on .464/.000/.630

Career Head-to-Head Postseason
KG: 21.4/12.0/4.0/1.4/1.8 on .453/.000/.797
TD: 20.6/11.9/3.4/0.9/2.5 on .463/.000/.696

[Fatal9]

:wtf: Why would the offence run through KG makes no sense
Because KG makes better decisions with the ball, operates like a point forward, used to face up and make plays or direct the ball from the high post, can score from any spot on the floor. Melo being a streakier scorer who averages couple more points a game doesn't mean that the offense would run through him more (if so, it would be an awful strategy). And besides, this is a shitty argument. Melo would put up a higher scoring average if he played with guys like Duncan, Walton, Magic etc etc, doesn't mean he is as valuable as them offensively or a "first option" over them.

[Ikill]

Why not? Big men are very viable options as the focal point on offense. With KG's range and passing, it's not so far fetched as you might think it would be.
Melo is the better slasher and post player so he's more like a big man on offence than KG

[Brunch@Five]

Age 22-31 Postseason
KG: 22.3/12.7/4.5/1.4/1.6 on .469/.302/.774
TD: 23.6/13.0/3.6/0.7/2.7 on .499/.148/.692

Career Regular Season
KG: 19.5/10.7/4.1/1.3/1.5 with a 23.4 PER on .498/.282/.788
TD: 20.6/11.4/3.1/0.7/2.3 with a 24.8 PER on .508/.182/.688

Career Postseason
KG: 19.6/11.1/3.8/1.3/1.4 with a 21.7 PER on .472/.298/.782
TD: 22.7/12.4/3.4/0.7/2.6 with a 25.4 PER on .502/.167/.678

Career Head-to-Head Regular Season
KG: 20.7/11.2/4.2/1.5/2.0 on .458/.389/.777
TD: 20.1/12.1/3.3/0.5/1.9 on .464/.000/.630

Career Head-to-Head Postseason
KG: 21.4/12.0/4.0/1.4/1.8 on .453/.000/.797
TD: 20.6/11.9/3.4/0.9/2.5 on .463/.000/.696

KG rarely put his team on his back offensively, Duncan did so quite often. This isn't even debatable.

[knickswin]

I dunno, maybe we've been watching different players, but to me Carmelo is the first option and it's really not even close.

Like I said, KG is not like those traditional big men. Carmelo has a better back to the basket game than KG does.

Why would you try to isolate KG in the mid post over Carmelo in the low block? Or even Carmelo in the high post or mid post. Carmelo's much more likely to drive the ball to the basket from those points than KG is who will likely take a jumper.

Like I said, there are plenty of possessions to go around and I am sure KG's play making abilities from the high post would be used to some effect. Although, I have no idea why you would use KG as a perimeter play maker over Carmelo who has the stronger perimeter game and superior dribbling skills.

[Pointguard]

Age 22-31 Postseason
KG: 22.3/12.7/4.5/1.4/1.6 on .469/.302/.774
TD: 23.6/13.0/3.6/0.7/2.7 on .499/.148/.692

Career Regular Season
KG: 19.5/10.7/4.1/1.3/1.5 with a 23.4 PER on .498/.282/.788
TD: 20.6/11.4/3.1/0.7/2.3 with a 24.8 PER on .508/.182/.688

Career Postseason
KG: 19.6/11.1/3.8/1.3/1.4 with a 21.7 PER on .472/.298/.782
TD: 22.7/12.4/3.4/0.7/2.6 with a 25.4 PER on .502/.167/.678

Career Head-to-Head Regular Season
KG: 20.7/11.2/4.2/1.5/2.0 on .458/.389/.777
TD: 20.1/12.1/3.3/0.5/1.9 on .464/.000/.630

Career Head-to-Head Postseason
KG: 21.4/12.0/4.0/1.4/1.8 on .453/.000/.797
TD: 20.6/11.9/3.4/0.9/2.5 on .463/.000/.696

Repped - well soon enough. KG had a bigger lead in their prime in the H2H matchups as coaches allowed KG to play Duncan straight up. So he even blocked more shots than Duncan as well in their prime H2H match ups. But they were incredibly similar players in terms of production for that five year stretch. Duncan was just freaky in getting his team to win tho.

[Ikill]

Melo is the better slasher and post player so he's more like a big man on offence than KG
:roll: I got negged for this "Stay in school you dumbazz u don't no shit you ****ing retarded child Hope KG rapes your mother n ur sister" man is mad as ****

[Ikill]

Is Melo not the better slasher and post player

[Ikill]

Boy what the **** did I tell u? And stop crying when I negg ur azz u ***** ... U ducking dumbazz have u even watch prime KG play? Nobody on this forum respect u we are some grown azz ****** u are a 1 year old child compare to us

:roll:

[ballup]

Melo is the better slasher and post player so he's more like a big man on offence than KG
It doesn't mean you give the ball to Melo first thing after you cross half court. So are you saying that the strategy would be to hand it to Carmelo and see if he can make a move?

Yes, he's the better scorer, but KG is a much better decision maker. Plus the ball moves around the court more smoothly in his hands then Melo's.

[Ikill]

It doesn't mean you give the ball to Melo first thing after you cross half court. So are you saying that the strategy would be to hand it to Carmelo and see if he can make a move?

Yes, he's the better scorer, but KG is a much better decision maker. Plus the ball moves around the court more smoothly in his hands then Melo's.
Melo would be the first option the offence should be built around his dominant scoring. And i guess KG would run the offence but isn't that the pgs job im kinda of confused right now

[JellyBean]

Have you actually um, looked at the teams he was facing in the first round?

'99 - Duncan/D-Rob championship Spurs team
'00 - 59 win Blazers team that was a quarter away from a championship
'01 - 58 win Spurs team
'02 - 57 win loaded Mavs team with Dirk/Nash/Finley/NVE
'03 - Shaq/Kobe's Lakers who were coming off three straight championships (and it looked like he was gonna upset them for a bit)


You want to let me know how many guys with the rosters KG had are upsetting those teams? All of them were championship quality teams. It's not like it was his fault for getting them a lower seed either. He was leading rosters to 50+ wins when they had no business winning that much, but in the West at the time, winning 50 games might mean a first round matchup with Kobe and Shaq's Laker teams, or Duncan's Spurs or the Mavs.

If you want to see KG's amazing value to his teams, look at his +/- over the years. Take 2003 for example, with KG out/on the bench Wolves were -17.1 points worse. Compare it to other stars at the time: Duncan (-6.2), Dirk (-6.5), Shaq (-5.2) and even someone like T-Mac who played on a terrible team himself (-8.9)...you just wonder how such a difference is even possible. And this is trend you see all decade...his teams are just epically bad without him on the floor. And you can thank the Minny management for making bad moves, forfeiting draft picks from the Joe Smith scandal then the breakup of the '04 core immediately the year after (though that's more Cassell and Spre's fault for getting so greedy).

KG gets a pass because he overachieved at least till like '05 with what he was given in Minny. The one year he did have legit help, he got them #1 seed in a loaded conference and took them to the conference finals where unfortunately the second best player on the Timberwolves (Cassell) got injured. And now people are going to revise history and act like he underachieved...expected, the farther you go away from those years the more details people forget.

Thank you. :applause: KG was handed a dirty hand, but he made the best of that hand. The owners and GM here in Minnesota never really got help for KG because of bad deals. KG did well with what he had around him.

[ballup]

Melo would be the first option the offence should be built around his dominant scoring. And i guess KG would run the offence but isn't that the pgs job im kinda of confused right now
Aside from getting a sharp shooting guard, you really can't build an offense around Melo cause his overall offensive game is too good. You would have to build an offense off of the other guys on the floor with him.

I only listed that example as to how KG could be the first option.

[Burgz]

Great topic.

Honestly, for me his active playing style in Minnesota leads me to believe that he was a generally hungry and motivated player. Basketball is a team game, and I'd hate to attribute the success of the team on just one guy.

Maybe, the Wolves were talented enough to win it all in '03 or '04 but honestly, it is very hard to deal in hypothetical situations like these and truly be confident.

Regardless, I always judge a player by his actions on the court and he was one of the greats in that regard.

[magnax1]

If there was one obvious flaw with KG's game, it wasn't being to passive as a scorer overall, but settling for long range shots to often. He didn't always seem to want to get inside and score, and when he did get inside he never tried to get any fouls. I don't see the whole he was to passive of a scorer thing, because he was honestly much better in the role of distributor then the role of a 25+ ppg scorer. Not that he wasn't capable of either.

[SyRyanYang]

Have you actually um, looked at the teams he was facing in the first round?

'99 - Duncan/D-Rob championship Spurs team
'00 - 59 win Blazers team that was a quarter away from a championship
'01 - 58 win Spurs team
'02 - 57 win loaded Mavs team with Dirk/Nash/Finley/NVE
'03 - Shaq/Kobe's Lakers who were coming off three straight championships (and it looked like he was gonna upset them for a bit)


You want to let me know how many guys with the rosters KG had are upsetting those teams? All of them were championship quality teams. It's not like it was his fault for getting them a lower seed either. He was leading rosters to 50+ wins when they had no business winning that much, but in the West at the time, winning 50 games might mean a first round matchup with Kobe and Shaq's Laker teams, or Duncan's Spurs or the Mavs.

If you want to see KG's amazing value to his teams, look at his +/- over the years. Take 2003 for example, with KG out/on the bench Wolves were -17.1 points worse. Compare it to other stars at the time: Duncan (-6.2), Dirk (-6.5), Shaq (-5.2) and even someone like T-Mac who played on a terrible team himself (-8.9)...you just wonder how such a difference is even possible. And this is trend you see all decade...his teams are just epically bad without him on the floor. And you can thank the Minny management for making bad moves, forfeiting draft picks from the Joe Smith scandal then the breakup of the '04 core immediately the year after (though that's more Cassell and Spre's fault for getting so greedy).

KG gets a pass because he overachieved at least till like '05 with what he was given in Minny. The one year he did have legit help, he got them #1 seed in a loaded conference and took them to the conference finals where unfortunately the second best player on the Timberwolves (Cassell) got injured. And now people are going to revise history and act like he underachieved...expected, the farther you go away from those years the more details people forget.

well said

[Pointguard]

Have you actually um, looked at the teams he was facing in the first round?

'99 - Duncan/D-Rob championship Spurs team
'00 - 59 win Blazers team that was a quarter away from a championship
'01 - 58 win Spurs team
'02 - 57 win loaded Mavs team with Dirk/Nash/Finley/NVE
'03 - Shaq/Kobe's Lakers who were coming off three straight championships (and it looked like he was gonna upset them for a bit)


You want to let me know how many guys with the rosters KG had are upsetting those teams? All of them were championship quality teams. It's not like it was his fault for getting them a lower seed either. He was leading rosters to 50+ wins when they had no business winning that much, but in the West at the time, winning 50 games might mean a first round matchup with Kobe and Shaq's Laker teams, or Duncan's Spurs or the Mavs.

If you want to see KG's amazing value to his teams, look at his +/- over the years. Take 2003 for example, with KG out/on the bench Wolves were -17.1 points worse. Compare it to other stars at the time: Duncan (-6.2), Dirk (-6.5), Shaq (-5.2) and even someone like T-Mac who played on a terrible team himself (-8.9)...you just wonder how such a difference is even possible. And this is trend you see all decade...his teams are just epically bad without him on the floor. And you can thank the Minny management for making bad moves, forfeiting draft picks from the Joe Smith scandal then the breakup of the '04 core immediately the year after (though that's more Cassell and Spre's fault for getting so greedy).

KG gets a pass because he overachieved at least till like '05 with what he was given in Minny. The one year he did have legit help, he got them #1 seed in a loaded conference and took them to the conference finals where unfortunately the second best player on the Timberwolves (Cassell) got injured. And now people are going to revise history and act like he underachieved...expected, the farther you go away from those years the more details people forget.
And KG played hard every moment on the floor on both ends. He gave you what he had with all the energy in him. That alone, breaks a tie breaker. Barkley was pretty bad after he got his quota of rebounds and didn't push himself in the game otherwise. Dirk always could have rebounded more and could have applied himself more on defense.

On the offensive tip KG sets picks better, can seamlessly move into other positions, gets more assist, is always more active, will inspire other players with his energy. And these factors are alive in every possession - I think Dirk's impact was alive on every possession too, not Barkley tho. Even with them hitting more clutch shots, I'm not willing to say they got a lot of separation on the offensive end - not if you watch every possession and clue in to every detail. Barkley looked like high impact but some of that is relative to his style. With their scoring only being a tier apart, the other factors definitely close the gap.

[DMAVS41]

And KG played hard every moment on the floor on both ends. He gave you what he had with all the energy in him. That alone, breaks a tie breaker. Barkley was pretty bad after he got his quota of rebounds and didn't push himself in the game otherwise. Dirk always could have rebounded more and could have applied himself more on defense.

On the offensive tip KG sets picks better, can seamlessly move into other positions, gets more assist, is always more active, will inspire other players with his energy. And these factors are alive in every possession - I think Dirk's impact was alive on every possession too, not Barkley tho. Even with them hitting more clutch shots, I'm not willing to say they got a lot of separation on the offensive end - not if you watch every possession and clue in to every detail. Barkley looked like high impact but some of that is relative to his style. With their scoring only being a tier apart, the other factors definitely close the gap.


The bold is where stats can really mess with you. Both Dirk and Barkley had a pretty big edge in terms of offensive value in my opinion. Dirk specifically has a ton of value just for being out on the court without the ball in his hands. Barkley as well. I just don't see the same value in KG's offense....it was certainly good, but probably not to the level you are giving him credit for.

Once again, Barkley vs KG vs Dirk is definitely debatable....and because of that, we know that Dirk and Barkley had pretty big edges in some aspect of offense. KG was literally twice the defender those two players were. So in order for it be close overall (which it very much is).....something barkley and dirk did had to be of extreme importance.

[MiseryCityTexas]

things woulda been hella different in the late 90s/early 2000s play-offs in minnesota if marbury would have stayed. everyone was calling marbury and garnett the hood version of stockton and malone when they played together. but we all know marbury became a greedy bastard just like cassel and sprewell years later. how ironic? seemed like every quality supporting cast garnett had, always became money hungry male goldigging divas later. sounds like garnett's teammates wanted the same amount of money garnett was getting and were prolly jealous of how much money he was making. Garnett was stuck carrying the whole t wolves franchise on his back by himself for most of the early 2000s after marbury was traded, and terrell brandon's career ended early. im pretty sure the t wolves prolly would have had alot more play-off success in the late 90s/early 2000s if Marbury would have stayed, and the joe smith thing would have never happened.

[Rooster]

things woulda been hella different in the late 90s/early 2000s play-offs in minnesota if marbury would have stayed. everyone was calling marbury and garnett the hood version of stockton and malone when they played together. but we all know marbury became a greedy bastard just like cassel and sprewell years later. how ironic? seemed like every quality supporting cast garnett had, always became money hungry male goldigging divas later. sounds like garnett's teammates wanted the same amount of money garnett was getting and were prolly jealous of how much money he was making. Garnett was stuck carrying the whole t wolves franchise on his back by himself for most of the early 2000s after marbury was traded, and terrell brandon's career ended early. im pretty sure the t wolves prolly would have had alot more play-off success in the late 90s/early 2000s if Marbury would have stayed, and the joe smith thing would have never happened.

No one wanted to stay in Minnesota so he was stuck with Wally.

[Pointguard]

The bold is where stats can really mess with you. Both Dirk and Barkley had a pretty big edge in terms of offensive value in my opinion. Dirk specifically has a ton of value just for being out on the court without the ball in his hands. Barkley as well. I just don't see the same value in KG's offense....it was certainly good, but probably not to the level you are giving him credit for.

Once again, Barkley vs KG vs Dirk is definitely debatable....and because of that, we know that Dirk and Barkley had pretty big edges in some aspect of offense. KG was literally twice the defender those two players were. So in order for it be close overall (which it very much is).....something barkley and dirk did had to be of extreme importance.

Well I see Dirk's value in terms of wins and vitality of players on the offense. I have problem with Barkley getting that edge tho. I liked Barkley's play until he played with Dream and he thought he was the man and totally abandoned team play. Then I wondered if he was doing this all along in his career. It definitely left a bad taste... but I might be too judgemental here.

Scoring wise I don't have Dirk on Duran't's level of scoring at any point in his career. Only Lebron, prime Kobe, Wade, with best Mello being the bridge or gap to the next tier. Dirk was always in that second tier to me with Amare, Danny Granger, Kevin Martin, Michael Redd. Monta Ellis group. That second tier is usually between 26ppg and 22ppg or usually around 5 thru 12 in scoring - Guys that didn't really push the issue but had a knack for scoring. I usually would find KG and Duncan at the bottom of the second tier group but consistently in it. Dirk might have cracked the top tier once as Barkley did.

I detailed the things KG should be getting more attention for in total offense. Maybe you can tell me where I am giving KG too much credit for:

Being in the same tier and being a superior passer definitely lessens the gap. Movement on offense creating flow and setting picks, lessens the gap. His intensity and alertness definitely kept players alive and more active (Nestorovic who couldn't play as well the rest of his career or with Duncan and Wally who just didn't have it when after left Minny are examples of players loosing alertness and lack of stimulation on offense). Offense isn't all about scoring and these things are constantly affecting the offense and always do add up. If you watch KG he is a study of motion and action. Barkley would take a lot of lunch breaks.