jordon without Pippen

[Mr. Bryant]

182-228 (.444)

108-138 (.439) with the Bulls

:applause:

[Yung D-Will]

Ok......

There's a reason why a lot of teams do bad without their second best player....

[Collie]

Yeah that "Jordon" guy sure sucks.

[RRR3]

Who's "Jordon"? :confusedshrug:

[rodman91]

Rookie Jordon without Pippen:
38-44
Made playoffs.

Prime Kobe without great big man:
28-38
Missed playoffs.

http://imnotatoy.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/hahajordan.gif

[Holy Random]

Jordon.... The best part is that it's not even a typo since a and o are on complete opposite sides of the keyboard.

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/joker.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

Ever notice how EVERY person who spells Jordan as "Jordon" is an MJ hater? EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

[d.bball.guy]

Jordon>Bryont

[Collie]

Rookie Jordon without Pippen:
http://imnotatoy.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/hahajordan.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Tha Catalyst]

Without a second option a superstar struggles more with more defensive attention than he already receives? What a shock.

[hammer2010]

Jordan w/o Pippen = Tony Allen w/o Shane Battier :lol

[Flagrant 2]

Rookie Jordon without Pippen:

Even Kobe Haters can't spell Jordan right. What has this world come to?

[AMISTILLILL]

Wasn't Jordon a character from the Superman comics?

[colts19]

Ok......

There's a reason why a lot of teams do bad without their second best player....

But somehow Pippen did good without his best player, who was replaced that year by a scrub. Yet they still had a winning record and only 2 less wins.

[guy]

But somehow Pippen did good without his best player, who was replaced that year by a scrub. Yet they still had a winning record and only 2 less wins.

I guess Pippen>Jordan then.

[Sakkreth]

Someone post LeBron's stats without D-Wade :D

[Kevin_Gamble]

182-228 (.444)

108-138 (.439) with the Bulls

:applause:

Yeah but you are talking about Jordan's Wizards "career" and the early Bulls. Someone already mentioned that Pippen took Jordan-less Bulls to a 55 win season. Jordan could've done the same, since the system and the role players were already in place.

[Bigsmoke]

does 1988 really count?

The Bulls won 50 games with Pippen coming off the bench averaging 8ppg. Thats basically an "MJ-Scottie" year to me.

[Dragonyeuw]

Yeah but you are talking about Jordan's Wizards "career" and the early Bulls. Someone already mentioned that Pippen took Jordan-less Bulls to a 55 win season. Jordan could've done the same, since the system and the role players were already in place.

Thank you for adding some sense to this. The 1994 team featured a prime Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and B.J Armstrong becoming all-star caliber players, a young but talented Kukoc, and as you said the system was in place.

It's in no way a comparable situation to a Rookie Jordan, who while individually talented did not know how to win at the NBA level at that point, playing alongside Orlando Woolridge and a bunch of no-name players that most on here probably never heard of. It's also a case of where the 1993 Bulls team, with Jordan, underachieved. This is a team that won 67 games the year before. And the 1994 team, without Jordan, effectively overachieved as everyone was hyped to prove their worth without him. And yes, Jordan's absence allowed other players to step up, notably the aforementioned Armstrong and Grant. And Pippen played out of his mind that year. People conveniently forget that the 1995 Bulls were a .500 team until Jordan returned, and they finished the season on a 13-4 run ( they lost Grant to Orlando that year).

[Dragonyeuw]

does 1988 really count?

The Bulls won 50 games with Pippen coming off the bench averaging 8ppg. Thats basically an "MJ-Scottie" year to me.

Which is about the closest you'll get to seeing 'Prime Jordan' playing without prime Pippen.

[Bigsmoke]

Which is about the closest you'll get to seeing 'Prime Jordan' playing without prime Pippen.

and how many scoring titles, MVPs, Finals MVPs, DPOYs, ect Pippen won through his entire career? "I honestly think Pippen should have won at least one DPOY award"

like.. watch the games and you'll see that Pippen needed MJ WAAAY more than vise versa

[Dragonyeuw]

and how many scoring titles, MVPs, Finals MVPs, DPOYs, ect Pippen won through his entire career? "I honestly think Pippen should have won at least one DPOY award"

like.. watch the games and you'll see that Pippen needed MJ WAAAY more than vise versa

I agree, though I would say that as far as the 3peats go, the 91-93 threepeat was a clear 1-2 relationship. The second threepeat was closer to 1a-1b....those 1 1/2/ seasons where Pippen played alone allowed his talents to be fully realized, and I think they fed off each other a bit better than the first 3peat. I think at that stage, Jordan considered Pippen closer to an equal as opposed to his #2.

[guy]

I agree, though I would say that as far as the 3peats go, the 91-93 threepeat was a clear 1-2 relationship. The second threepeat was closer to 1a-1b....those 1 1/2/ seasons where Pippen played alone allowed his talents to be fully realized, and I think they fed off each other a bit better than the first 3peat. I think at that stage, Jordan considered Pippen closer to an equal as opposed to his #2.

No definitely not. As great as Pippen was, it was always clearly a 1-2 relationship.

[imdaman99]

i figured even if jordan never had pippen... he would have gotten at least 2-3 rings. def no 3peat though.

[Smoke117]

No definitely not. As great as Pippen was, it was always clearly a 1-2 relationship.

As far as scoring, but after Jordan came back the team was more Pippen's than Jordan's. Jordan in general was always a lead by example guy while Pippen was the vocal leader and after the 94 and 95 seasons his leadership abilities really came out. Most of the players that played for the Bulls if asked will tell you that Pippen was the leader of the team. Jordan was the clear number 1 scoring option, no disputing that, but Pippen was more of the team leader definitely in that 2nd threepeat, so it really is a more a 1a/1b relationship.

[Dragonyeuw]

No definitely not. As great as Pippen was, it was always clearly a 1-2 relationship.

That's only if you value scoring and nothing else. If you look at the intangibles Pippen brought to the team in the 2nd 3peat, it was clearly a 1a-1b.

[Duncan21formvp]

That's only if you value scoring and nothing else. If you look at the intangibles Pippen brought to the team in the 2nd 3peat, it was clearly a 1a-1b.

No, not even close really. A 1a-1b means a guy is just as good and has just as good as chance to be MVP or win Finals MVP, that was not the case with Pippen. MJ finished 1st, 2nd, 1st on the 2nd 3 peat while Pippen's highest was 5th. He finished 5th, 11th and 10th. Not to mention Jordan led in the advanced stats by a great margin and in the league in them as well.

[Smoke117]

No, not even close really. A 1a-1b means a guy is just as good and has just as good as chance to be MVP or win Finals MVP, that was not the case with Pippen. MJ finished 1st, 2nd, 1st on the 2nd 3 peat while Pippen's highest was 5th. He finished 5th, 11th and 10th. Not to mention Jordan led in the advanced stats by a great margin and in the league in them as well.

You don't find that amazing in and of itself that he finished 5th in MVP voting in 1996 when he was playing alongside Jordan? Finishing 5th Pippen was the last player to finish with more than 200 points, finishing with 226pts. After that it falls to Gary Payton with 98. Above Pippen, are Hakeem with 238, Penny with 360, and Robinson with 574. I'd call that pretty impressive to be that high on the MVP list when you are playing next to Michael Jordan and considering Pippen's stats took a big hit as his various injuries were building up as the season went on because he was completely torching the league the first half of the season, just destroying. In December he was named player of the month averaging 25.5pts 7rebs 6ast 2.36spg 54%fg 48%3pt. Like I said, before his injuries started to build up he was completely destroying the league. It was far from a one man show with Michael Jordan and his "sidekick" even on the offensive side of things in 96. As others have said though, there are other things beyond scoring as Pippen was the clear leader of the team on the offense and defense and he improved as an alpha scorer from the first threepeat as he worked on his jump shot. Jordan could rest on the bench more in the 2nd threepeat and they didn't have to worry about losing leads as Pippen dominated.

[Dragonyeuw]

No, not even close really. A 1a-1b means a guy is just as good and has just as good as chance to be MVP or win Finals MVP, that was not the case with Pippen. MJ finished 1st, 2nd, 1st on the 2nd 3 peat while Pippen's highest was 5th. He finished 5th, 11th and 10th. Not to mention Jordan led in the advanced stats by a great margin and in the league in them as well.

That's your definition of it. Scottie Pippen, in the second 3peat, was as good an all-around player as Jordan. As dynamic an offensive force? Of course not, but he brought leadership and intangibles both on and off the court that transcended his in-game impact( which was tremendous). As stated earlier, many former Bulls have gone on record as saying Pippen was the calming influence in the locker-room, the on-court emotional leader, and the glue of the team. Not to mention that Pippen was the one who directed the triangle offense, not Jordan. That says more than #2 in the pecking order to me.

The under-appreciation of Scottie Pippen continues...

[Dragonyeuw]

You don't find that amazing in and of itself that he finished 5th in MVP voting in 1996 when he was playing alongside Jordan? Finishing 5th Pippen was the last player to finish with more than 200 points, finishing with 226pts. After that it falls to Gary Payton with 98. Above Pippen, are Hakeem with 238, Penny with 360, and Robinson with 574. I'd call that pretty impressive to be that high on the MVP list when you are playing next to Michael Jordan and considering Pippen's stats took a big hit as his various injuries were building up as the season went on because he was completely torching the league the first half of the season, just destroying. In December he was named player of the month averaging 25.5pts 7rebs 6ast 2.36spg 54%fg 48%3pt.

Thank you for raising this point, because it dawned on me earlier. Pippen was straight-up BALLING in 1995-96 before the injuries kicked in, to the point that he was a legit MVP candidate for much of that season. I also think Scottie was frontrunner for the 98 finals MVP before he messed up his back in Game 6.

[Duncan21formvp]

You don't find that amazing in and of itself that he finished 5th in MVP voting in 1996 when he was playing alongside Jordan? Finishing 5th Pippen was the last player to finish with more than 200 points, finishing with 226pts. After that it falls to Gary Payton with 98. Above Pippen, are Hakeem with 238, Penny with 360, and Robinson with 574. I'd call that pretty impressive to be that high on the MVP list when you are playing next to Michael Jordan and considering Pippen's stats took a big hit as his various injuries were building up as the season went on because he was completely torching the league the first half of the season, just destroying. In December he was named player of the month averaging 25.5pts 7rebs 6ast 2.36spg 54%fg 48%3pt. Like I said, before his injuries started to build up he was completely destroying the league. It was far from a one man show with Michael Jordan and his "sidekick" even on the offensive side of things in 96. As others have said though, there are other things beyond scoring as Pippen was the clear leader of the team on the offense and defense and he improved as an alpha scorer from the first threepeat as he worked on his jump shot. Jordan could rest on the bench more in the 2nd threepeat and they didn't have to worry about losing leads as Pippen dominated.

Bulls were 5-0 in 1996 without Pippen and in 1998 they were 24-11 without him having the #1 seed at the time when he was returning.

Him finishing 5th in the voting is more due to the Bulls overall record. The guy only finished 5th in MVP voting twice in his career. For someone to be a 1b type of player they should finish higher than that much more often. Was he there and helpful hell yes, but that doesn't mean he was a 1b.
Hell Mchale finished 4th in MVP voting in 1987 would you consider him a 1b to Bird's 1a? I sure as hell wouldn't. Dr J finished 5th in MVP voting in 1983 while Moses Malone was #1. In those cases those guys were much closer at least Dr J won MVP's in other years.

[Dragonyeuw]

Bulls were 5-0 in 1996 without Pippen and in 1998 they were 24-11 without him having the #1 seed at the time when he was returning.

Him finishing 5th in the voting is more due to the Bulls overall record. The guy only finished 5th in MVP voting twice in his career. For someone to be a 1b type of player they should finish higher than that much more often. Was he there and helpful hell yes, but that doesn't mean he was a 1b.
Hell Mchale finished 4th in MVP voting in 1987 would you consider him a 1b to Bird's 1a? I sure as hell wouldn't. Dr J finished 5th in MVP voting in 1983 while Moses Malone was #1. In those cases those guys were much closer at least Dr J won MVP's in other years.

Frankly it was impossible for Pippen to be voted much higher than 4th or 5th while on the same team as Jordan, seeing as the guys between him and MJ were the undisputed alphas on their squad( asides from Penny playing with Shaq). I don't think MVP voting, on its own, should be the deciding factor in how valuable Pippen was to the team. And, the fact that their teammates state Pippen was the locker-room and floor leader in the 2nd 3peat pretty much sums up how the Bulls felt about their roles on the team. Jordan himself acknowledged Pippen as more of a brother or equal in the 2nd 3peat, I recall the article from years ago but damned if I could find the quote now.

[Duncan21formvp]

Frankly it was impossible for Pippen to be voted much higher than 4th or 5th while on the same team as Jordan, seeing as the guys between him and MJ were the undisputed alphas on their squad( asides from Penny playing with Shaq). I don't think MVP voting, on its own, should be the deciding factor in how valuable Pippen was to the team. And, the fact that their teammates state Pippen was the locker-room and floor leader in the 2nd 3peat pretty much sums up how the Bulls felt about their roles on the team. Jordan himself acknowledged Pippen as more of a brother or equal in the 2nd 3peat, I recall the article from years ago but damned if I could find the quote now.

That's just more of high praise of a guy you are playing with. He even said after the 1997 title that it was hard to take the mvp himself, that he would keep the trophy and Pippen could get the car. No one is going to say yeah I'm wayyyy better than you and I'm the man on the team. That was already acknowledged and known.
Just difficult to say a guy who led in every advanced stat and won all the league and finals mvp's is only a 1a and his teammate who never led in any of the advanced stats nor won league or finals mvp's is a 1b. Not practical by any means.

Hell do you consider Stockton a 1b to Malone's 1a in 1997 or Drexler a 1b to Hakeem's 1a in 1995 or Oscar a 1b to Kareem's 1a in 1971 or Sam Jones a 1b to Russell's 1a in 1965?

[305Baller]

This is where Iverson has Jordan by the balls.
Iverson did it (finals) with no real No. 2.'

edit: iverson did not have to go through Boston or Detroit

[Duncan21formvp]

This is where Iverson has Jordan by the balls.
Iverson did it (finals) with no real No. 2.'

edit: iverson did not have to go through Boston or Detroit

Mutombo actually led the Sixers in the playoffs in total win shares by a considerable margin and was the defensive anchor. Not to mention was 2nd team all nba that year.

[Smoke117]

Bulls were 5-0 in 1996 without Pippen and in 1998 they were 24-11 without him having the #1 seed at the time when he was returning.

Him finishing 5th in the voting is more due to the Bulls overall record. The guy only finished 5th in MVP voting twice in his career. For someone to be a 1b type of player they should finish higher than that much more often. Was he there and helpful hell yes, but that doesn't mean he was a 1b.
Hell Mchale finished 4th in MVP voting in 1987 would you consider him a 1b to Bird's 1a? I sure as hell wouldn't. Dr J finished 5th in MVP voting in 1983 while Moses Malone was #1. In those cases those guys were much closer at least Dr J won MVP's in other years.

Also despite his various injuries which stunted his offense in the playoffs (he had an ankle sprain that made it difficult to drive...and as that was his main offensive weapon...him being a slasher and all it turned him primarily into a jump shooter),he still led the entire playoffs in drating and defensive win shares. That's leading defensive rating over CENTERS and everyone. I'd call that pretty alpha and 1b. He always turned his defense to a completely new level in the playoffs and even as beat as he was he was the most dominate defensive player in the ENTIRE playoffs.

[305Baller]

Mutombo actually led the Sixers in the playoffs in total win shares by a considerable margin and was the defensive anchor. Not to mention was 2nd team all nba that year.

so you are saying mutombo had as much impact as Pip?
Still, who else commanded a double team on offense?

[jlip]

Frankly it was impossible for Pippen to be voted much higher than 4th or 5th while on the same team as Jordan, seeing as the guys between him and MJ were the undisputed alphas on their squad( asides from Penny playing with Shaq). I don't think MVP voting, on its own, should be the deciding factor in how valuable Pippen was to the team. And, the fact that their teammates state Pippen was the locker-room and floor leader in the 2nd 3peat pretty much sums up how the Bulls felt about their roles on the team. Jordan himself acknowledged Pippen as more of a brother or equal in the 2nd 3peat, I recall the article from years ago but damned if I could find the quote now.

Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals."

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

[Duncan21formvp]

Also despite his various injuries which stunted his offense in the playoffs (he had ankle sprain that made it difficult to slash...and as that was his main offensive weapon he turned into a jump shooter), led the entire playoffs in drating and defensive win shares. That's over big men and EVERYONE. I'd call that pretty alpha and 1b. He also turned his defense to completely new level in the playoffs and even as beat as he was he was the most dominate player in the ENTIRE playoffs.

Naw by no means. He had a 3.0 Win shares in the playoffs and a .195 WS/PER 48 Minutes while MJ had a 4.7 Win shares and a .306 WS/PER 48 minutes.

No matter how much credit you want to give him he just wasn't a 1b. Unless you believe Drexler in 1995, Sam Jones in 1965, Kevin Mchale in 1986, Stockton in 1997 were 1b's as well as MJ had Pippen statistically more than all of them had there counterpart.

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals."

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

Repped!!

[Smoke117]

Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals."

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

Exactly. The reason why Pippen's stats don't look that good (see how 97's are better) overall is because various injuries were building up...ankle, wrist, knee, and he was getting battered and was starting to take it easier and easier out there, but if you watched the Bulls that season...Scottie was completely dominating the first 2/3rds of the season as I pointed out how he was voted POTM in December. I really don't see why it's so odd that it would be 1a/1b now...Pippen had proven himself to be a superstar player in 1994 and 1995 when he played without Jordan.

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals."

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm


Look at the date it is the end of January of 1996. There was still 3 months left in the regular season and then you had the playoffs.

[Dragonyeuw]

That's just more of high praise of a guy you are playing with. He even said after the 1997 title that it was hard to take the mvp himself, that he would keep the trophy and Pippen could get the car. No one is going to say yeah I'm wayyyy better than you and I'm the man on the team. That was already acknowledged and known.
Just difficult to say a guy who led in every advanced stat and won all the league and finals mvp's is only a 1a and his teammate who never led in any of the advanced stats nor won league or finals mvp's is a 1b. Not practical by any means.

Hell do you consider Stockton a 1b to Malone's 1a in 1997 or Drexler a 1b to Hakeem's 1a in 1995 or Oscar a 1b to Kareem's 1a in 1971 or Sam Jones a 1b to Russell's 1a in 1965?

Jordan never spoke like that in the prior 3peat regarding Pippen. Which I take to mean he acknowledged the value Pippen brought to the team in the 2nd 3peat, and how Pippen actually allowed Jordan to 'be Jordan' while shining in his own right. Again, you're looking at advanced stats and MVP rankings, and not the leadership and intangibles, which can't be measured. In any event, we'll agree to disagree, as we're viewing this from 2 different angles.

[Smoke117]

Naw by no means. He had a 3.0 Win shares in the playoffs and a .195 WS/PER 48 Minutes while MJ had a 4.7 Win shares and a .306 WS/PER 48 minutes.

No matter how much credit you want to give him he just wasn't a 1b. Unless you believe Drexler in 1995, Sam Jones in 1965, Kevin Mchale in 1986, Stockton in 1997 were 1b's as well as MJ had Pippen statistically more than all of them had there counterpart.

Are you not paying attention? I said defensively. He was beat the hell out of by the time the playoffs came, especially in that Sonics series. Offensively he couldn't even drive with his ankle sprain. I'm talking about defense and in their defensive win shares it is 1.7 Pippen (which led the entire playoffs for ANY player) to Jordans 1.3. Pippen then led the entire playoffs for ANY player in defensive rating with an 96. He was basically the best defensive player in the entire playoffs. That's some sidekick you have there MJ. He only goes out despite having about three different injuries and completely dominates the playoffs defensively.

[Dragonyeuw]

Look at the date it is the end of January of 1996. There was still 3 months left in the regular season and then you had the playoffs.

He got injured towards the end of the year. That still shows the kind of stature Pippen had around the league, and most importantly, to Jordan. Hell, in 1992 was MJ hyping Pippen like that? Pretty clear to me Jordan understood the kind of player that Pip had become at that point.

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan never spoke like that in the prior 3peat regarding Pippen. Which I take to mean he acknowledged the value Pippen brought to the team in the 2nd 3peat, and how Pippen actually allowed Jordan to 'be Jordan' while shining in his own right. Again, you're looking at advanced stats and MVP rankings, and not the leadership and intangibles, which can't be measured. In any event, we'll agree to disagree, as we're viewing this from 2 different angles.
I hear your point, I just think they got closer when they aged. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

The way I see it, you had two legit franchise player in jordan and pippen in 96-98. Now I don't know if pippen would've won the mvp in 96. But I definatly feel his injuries cost him the dpoy award. Along with the politics that tried to build a possible finals matchup between the mvp and scoring leader (jordan) vs the dpoy (payton).

[Dragonyeuw]

I hear your point, I just think they got closer when they aged. :cheers:

That, and on-court impact was closer as well from 96-98, compared to 91-93. You have to consider that as Jordan aged, Pippen's play allowed him to conserve energy to come through with his late-game heroics. It's those heroics that won Jordan the MVP votes, but doesn't give the proper credit to Pippen.

Jordan doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to heap praise for shits and giggles. If he was calling Pip the MVP back in 1996, I'd take it as more then 'he's my buddy, so I'll talk him up'.

[Dragonyeuw]

The way I see it, you had two legit franchise player in jordan and pippen in 96-98. Now I don't know if pippen would've won the mvp in 96. But I definatly feel his injuries cost him the dpoy award. Along with the politics that tried to build a possible finals matchup between the mvp and scoring leader (jordan) vs the dpoy (payton).

We're going back quite a while now, but I think Pippen was playing better in 1995-96 before getting injured, than in 1994 when he came 3rd in MVP voting. I think the presence of Jordan would have prevented him from winning MVP, but I don't think it's a stretch to say Pippen could and should have viably finished 3rd that year, had he been healthy all the way.

[rodman91]

Pippen has never been 1b when Jordan was on Bulls.That doesn't take anything away from his value though.

[Smoke117]

We're going back quite a while now, but I think Pippen was playing better in 1995-96 before getting injured, than in 1994 when he came 3rd in MVP voting. I think the presence of Jordan would have prevented him from winning MVP, but I don't think it's a stretch to say Pippen could and should have viably finished 3rd that year, had he been healthy all the way.

I don't know about that. Things were easier in 96 because they had a better team and also remember the 3pt line was shortened. It was the 93-94 season that he really started taking three pointers and when his jumper really started to become a weapon he could use more off the dribble, but he was playing better in 94 even before getting injured in 96(percentages aside). He was also completely more dominant defensively in 94, but he also had to do more as Jordan was gone. He had Rodman and Jordan and Harper there in 96. In 96 at least during the regular season he was put on the other teams best scorer a lot and wasn't needed to be "one man wrecking crew" as Phil once called him after that Finals game where the Bulls humiliated the Jazz. Meaning Pippen didn't have to be EVERYWHERE like he did in 94 and especially in 95. He was used more in a specific manner as a stopper in the regular season as he didn't have to be everywhere as a help defender anymore with Jordan, Rodman, and Harper (who was a really good defender himself) there now. In the playoffs though he went into 94/95 mode though as I've said how he led the playoffs in drating and defensive winshares. Either way, no, He was more dominant in 94 than in 96 even before the injuries and he had to do it with less help and as the number 1 target for a team to stop at ALL times.

It still pisses me off that Gary Payton won DPOY in 96 though. They keep giving it to perimeter players that never even deserve it over the big men and the one guy that actually did never got it when he should have...Scottie Pippen in 95. Frankly, David Robinson should have been DPOY in 96, but if you were going to give it a perimeter player, how do you give it to Gary Payton over Scottie Pippen? That's a joke as the playoffs showed.

[97 bulls]

Another thing people fail to realize as far as pippen, is how many games he played in from 91 to 98. He never really had legit rest. Especially when you consider he played in the 92 and 96 olympics.

I remember jordan having to be coaxed into playing for the dream team in 92 due to lack of rest for the nba season. All those games is what took its toll on pippens back

[OldSchoolBBall]

As far as scoring, but after Jordan came back the team was more Pippen's than Jordan's. Jordan in general was always a lead by example guy while Pippen was the vocal leader and after the 94 and 95 seasons his leadership abilities really came out. Most of the players that played for the Bulls if asked will tell you that Pippen was the leader of the team. Jordan was the clear number 1 scoring option, no disputing that, but Pippen was more of the team leader definitely in that 2nd threepeat, so it really is a more a 1a/1b relationship.

lulz @ these Pippen groupies. :oldlol:

If ever there was a CLEAR 1/2 relationship on a traditionally constructed team, it was Jordan and Pippen. Jordan's impact on games >>> Pippen's impact.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I also find it amusing that Pippen was apparently injured EVERY DAMN TIME he performed below expectations, in the playoffs and regular seasons. Honestly, I've heard Pippen groupies on here use the "he was injured" excuse for ALL THREE of the '96-'98 postseasons, for a portion of the 1996 season, for the 1993 season, and others. GTFOH with that noise. :oldlol: Dude wasn't injured that much at all.

[guy]

That's only if you value scoring and nothing else. If you look at the intangibles Pippen brought to the team in the 2nd 3peat, it was clearly a 1a-1b.

Cause all Jordan did was score and he didn't bring any intangibles? Is that what you're trying to say?

Jordan did pretty much everything Pippen did about just as well, but he added another 10 points and was clearly the one they leaned on most in clutch situations.

I don't see how anyone that watched them can really try to argue this.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen and 4 above average players versus Jordan and 4 above average players. How many playoff series does Pippen's team win against MJ's if they play 100 times? I'd say less than 5, if they even win ONE. That's no "1b" kids...

lmao @ dudes trying to act like Pippen's impact was comparable/equal/superior to Jordan's. Bullshit revisionist history up in here. Dig up all the quotes you want, but anyone who watched that team play knows the deal.

[guy]

The way I see it, you had two legit franchise player in jordan and pippen in 96-98. Now I don't know if pippen would've won the mvp in 96. But I definatly feel his injuries cost him the dpoy award. Along with the politics that tried to build a possible finals matchup between the mvp and scoring leader (jordan) vs the dpoy (payton).

The DPOY is decided well before the Finals.

[guy]

That, and on-court impact was closer as well from 96-98, compared to 91-93. You have to consider that as Jordan aged, Pippen's play allowed him to conserve energy to come through with his late-game heroics. It's those heroics that won Jordan the MVP votes, but doesn't give the proper credit to Pippen.

Jordan doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to heap praise for shits and giggles. If he was calling Pip the MVP back in 1996, I'd take it as more then 'he's my buddy, so I'll talk him up'.

He's actually done it plenty of times. As much of an egotistical narcissistic person he may be, back in the day especially in interviews he would show alot of humility at times. I remember in 88 when he won his first MVP, he said Drexler deserved it just as much. He also frequently deflected any GOAT talks saying something along the lines of "without these players before me, there would be no MJ, etc."

This idea that Jordan always talked himself up and didn't give credit to others is not true at all. I think thats a perception that grew cause of his HOF speech, but its wrong.

[BlackJoker23]

Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals."

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm
lmao clear as phucking day jordan was the sidekick. dude said it himself

[OldSchoolBBall]

lmao clear as phucking day jordan was the sidekick. dude said it himself

LMAO @ these deluded clowns. :oldlol: Jordan the sidekick? :roll:

I think Pippen might actually be more overrated than Kobe now. Kobe at least was the goods - a truly DOMINANT player. An alpha. Pippen was never an alpha. Never truly dominant. Terrific all-around player, but no matter how great of an all-around player one is, they'll never be in the same league as the MJ's, Bird's, Shaq's, and Magic's of the world who were truly dominant and could and would kill you in every way possible.

[Fatal9]

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/gallery/raremj/rare8.jpg

"chill out Mike, I'll guard him for you since you're getting lit the phuck up. just worry about scoring k?"

[SyRyanYang]

Yet people rank lebron higher than Pippen

[Dragonyeuw]

Cause all Jordan did was score and he didn't bring any intangibles? Is that what you're trying to say?



Since I didn't remotely come close to saying anything like that, I can't even be bothered to respond further.

[BEAST Griffin]

That's only if you value scoring and nothing else. If you look at the intangibles Pippen brought to the team in the 2nd 3peat, it was clearly a 1a-1b.

Jordan > Shaq

Kobe fans think Shaq/Kobe = 1a/1b

So if Jordan/Pippen = 1a/1b

Pippen >= Kobe ?

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan > Shaq

Kobe fans think Shaq/Kobe = 1a/1b

So if Jordan/Pippen = 1a/1b

Pippen >= Kobe ?

Yeah, something like that....

Jesus H. Christ.

[Dragonyeuw]

Pippen and 4 above average players versus Jordan and 4 above average players. How many playoff series does Pippen's team win against MJ's if they play 100 times? I'd say less than 5, if they even win ONE. That's no "1b" kids...

lmao @ dudes trying to act like Pippen's impact was comparable/equal/superior to Jordan's. Bullshit revisionist history up in here. Dig up all the quotes you want, but anyone who watched that team play knows the deal.

Yeah ok, Pippen's contributions were meaningless. Let's kill the thread now.

Seriously, I'd say it's more a case of people who watched the team play, understand how valuable Pippen actually was, not how 'inferior' he was to Jordan. I don't get the beating down of Pippen, just to prop up Jordan to godly heights. And I'm a huge Jordan fan, but the underrating of Pippen is ridiculous.

[OldSchoolBBall]

"chill out Mike, I'll guard him for you since you're getting lit the phuck up. just worry about scoring k?"

Pippen exclusively guarded SF's with 3 exceptions in the 10 years they played together. Grab a clue, troll.

[rodman91]

Yet people rank lebron higher than Pippen

Pippen said lebron might be goat. I can't blame whoever ranks him higher than him.

Lebron must be higher than Pippen.Already accomplished more as individual.Much better stats.Carried a weak team to finals.Pippen's rings can't be great argument against Lebron or anyother franchise player since pippen was sidekick in 6 rings.

And I love pippen.One of the greatest players ever.He could be franchise player in many teams.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yeah ok, Pippen's contributions were meaningless. Let's kill the thread now.

Seriously, I'd say it's more a case of people who watched the team play, understand how valuable Pippen actually was, not how 'inferior' he was to Jordan. I don't get the beating down of Pippen, just to prop up Jordan to godly heights. And I'm a huge Jordan fan, but the underrating of Pippen is ridiculous.

No one said his contributions were meaningless. They just weren't comparable or equal to Jordan's.

How many playoff series does a Pippen-led team win against a Jordan-led team assuming they play 100 series and have equal talent? 1? 5? If you're lucky.

[Dragonyeuw]

No one said his contributions were meaningless. They just weren't comparable or equal to Jordan's.

How many playoff series does a Pippen-led team win against a Jordan-led team assuming they play 100 series and have equal talent? 1? 5? If you're lucky.

Nor did I say it was equal to Jordan. I did say that the relationship was CLOSER to a 1a-1b in the 2nd threepeat, than it was in the first 3peat. And when I say that, I'm talking about Pippen's locker-room presence and on-court leadership, not specifically how much he impacted the game compared to Jordan.

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't know about that. Things were easier in 96 because they had a better team and also remember the 3pt line was shortened. It was the 93-94 season that he really started taking three pointers and when his jumper really started to become a weapon he could use more off the dribble, but he was playing better in 94 even before getting injured in 96(percentages aside). He was also completely more dominant defensively in 94, but he also had to do more as Jordan was gone. He had Rodman and Jordan and Harper there in 96. In 96 at least during the regular season he was put on the other teams best scorer a lot and wasn't needed to be "one man wrecking crew" as Phil once called him after that Finals game where the Bulls humiliated the Jazz. Meaning Pippen didn't have to be EVERYWHERE like he did in 94 and especially in 95. He was used more in a specific manner as a stopper in the regular season as he didn't have to be everywhere as a help defender anymore with Jordan, Rodman, and Harper (who was a really good defender himself) there now. In the playoffs though he went into 94/95 mode though as I've said how he led the playoffs in drating and defensive winshares. Either way, no, He was more dominant in 94 than in 96 even before the injuries and he had to do it with less help and as the number 1 target for a team to stop at ALL times.

It still pisses me off that Gary Payton won DPOY in 96 though. They keep giving it to perimeter players that never even deserve it over the big men and the one guy that actually did never got it when he should have...Scottie Pippen in 95. Frankly, David Robinson should have been DPOY in 96, but if you were going to give it a perimeter player, how do you give it to Gary Payton over Scottie Pippen? That's a joke as the playoffs showed.

Well, as I was saying, we're going back a while. Don't know, I just seem to remember being more impressed by him in 1996, but hey it's been 15 years.

[LBJFTW]

The phrase "The greatest one two punch since Jordan and Pippen." will never get old.

[NugzHeat3]

Pippen and 4 above average players versus Jordan and 4 above average players. How many playoff series does Pippen's team win against MJ's if they play 100 times? I'd say less than 5, if they even win ONE. That's no "1b" kids...

lmao @ dudes trying to act like Pippen's impact was comparable/equal/superior to Jordan's. Bullshit revisionist history up in here. Dig up all the quotes you want, but anyone who watched that team play knows the deal.
How is that revisionist history if its being backed up by the quotes at the time? Seems like you're contradicting yourself here.

Pippen also got 10% of the vote for the best player in the league in 1996 as opposed to Jordan's 68% meaning people did think he was better than Jordan. It also bears mentioning that its possible more than 10% thought Pippen was better than Jordan because we don't know who each voter voted as the second best player. So the other 22% that's missing, a good number of those guys may have ranked Pippen ahead of Jordan. 13% thought Hakeem as the best so those people may have ranked Pippen ahead of Jordan as well.

I personally think its ****ing stupid and would have told you the same thing back then but its not revisionist history to suggest Pippen was >= Jordan in 1996. The disparity in the voting would have been even closer if you took a poll mid-season when Pippen won POTM in December, was getting called MVP of the team in various interviews as well as by color commentators ect.

[97 bulls]

No one said his contributions were meaningless. They just weren't comparable or equal to Jordan's.

How many playoff series does a Pippen-led team win against a Jordan-led team assuming they play 100 series and have equal talent? 1? 5? If you're lucky.
How bout we look at what actually happened. Who had the better team? Jordan in 98 withouut pippen. Or pippen in 94 without jordan?

The 98 bulls 24-11 without pippen

Harper
Jordan
Scott Burrell (pippens replacement)
Rodman
Longley
Kukoc with 5 years of experience
Kerr

94 bulls 55-27 without jordan

Armstrong
Pete Myers (jordans replacement)
Pippen
Grant
Longley
Kukoc (as a rookie)
Kerr

Also consider that longley was a much better player in 98 as opposed to 94.

This is not to say pippen is on the same line as jordan. But his impact was a lot higher than what you want to give him credit for

[OldSchoolBBall]

How is that revisionist history if its being backed up by the quotes at the time? Seems like you're contradicting yourself here.


No one has ever thought that Pippen was a better player than Jordan at any point in their careers. Get real. "More valuable"? Maybe a few thought that - whatever the hell that means, and however they were conceiving of it.


Pippen also got 10% of the vote for the best player in the league in 1996 as opposed to Jordan's 68% meaning people did think he was better than Jordan. It also bears mentioning that its possible more than 10% thought Pippen was better than Jordan because we don't know who each voter voted as the second best player. So the other 22% that's missing, a good number of those guys may have ranked Pippen ahead of Jordan.

Where are you getting these numbers from? Point blank: if you asked ANY player "who was better, MJ or Pippen? in any full season they played together, not a single one would say Pippen. Point blank. And if they would, they're fools.

[barnett114]

Mr. Bryant is a dumbass.

Kobe stans stay failing.

[NugzHeat3]

No one has ever thought that Pippen was a better player than Jordan at any point in their careers. Get real. "More valuable"? Maybe a few thought that - whatever the hell that means, and however they were conceiving of it.



Where are you getting these numbers from? Point blank: if you asked ANY player "who was better, MJ or Pippen? in any full season they played together, not a single one would say Pippen. Point blank. And if they would, they're fools.


The verdict on Jordan: 'Simply the best' Rodman tops dirtiest, but he has company
[FINAL Edition]
USA TODAY (pre-1997 Fulltext) - McLean, Va.
Author: David DuPree
Date: Apr 22, 1996
Start Page: 10.E
Section: BONUS
Text Word Count: 643
Abstract (Document Summary)

Michael Jordan was the overwhelming choice as the best player in the NBA in USA TODAY's fifth annual survey of the league's coaches, players, trainers and general managers.

Jordan, the league's leading scorer and a heavy favorite to win his fourth most valuable player award, received 68% of the vote, far outdistancing Hakeem Olajuwon of the Houston Rockets, who had 13%. Jordan's Chicago Bulls teammate Scottie Pippen was third, garnering 10%.

Mitch Richmond of Sacramento was voted the most underrated player, Damon Stoudamire of Toronto was the top rookie and Atlanta's Lenny Wilkens was selected as the coach most people would like to play for.


You are the only one who needs to get real here.

This is a huge poll too given they are surveying coaches, players, trainers as well as GMs so its not like its a small sample size.

And like I said, its possible more than 10% thought he was better than Jordan because we don't know who these people voted as their second best player. Those 13% that voted Hakeem may have had Scottie ahead of Jordan.

Its not about whether they're right or not (its not really close to me) but it was discussed at the time.

Basically, you're the one who is engaging in revisionism which is funny because you're calling others out for doing so.

[guy]

Since I didn't remotely come close to saying anything like that, I can't even be bothered to respond further.

You said if all I value is scoring and nothing else. That implies all Jordan did was score and nothing else, tangible or intangible.



Nor did I say it was equal to Jordan. I did say that the relationship was CLOSER to a 1a-1b in the 2nd threepeat, than it was in the first 3peat. And when I say that, I'm talking about Pippen's locker-room presence and on-court leadership, not specifically how much he impacted the game compared to Jordan.

Well if you're just talking about leadership you can call Kobe and Fisher 1a/1b or Bird and DJ 1a/1b or Duncan and Ginobili 1a/1b. These topics about 1/2 or 1a/1b (which is stupid IMO anyway, cause distinguishing a from b clearly indicates a superiority just like 1/2) is usually about impact/greatness, and who the better player is. Leadership is also a factor in who the better player is. Taking everything into account, its clear that Jordan and Pippen were always 1/2.

[rodman91]

How bout we look at what actually happened. Who had the better team? Jordan in 98 withouut pippen. Or pippen in 94 without jordan?

The 98 bulls 24-11 without pippen

Harper
Jordan
Scott Burrell (pippens replacement)
Rodman
Longley
Kukoc with 5 years of experience
Kerr

94 bulls 55-27 without jordan

Armstrong
Pete Myers (jordans replacement)
Pippen
Grant
Longley
Kukoc (as a rookie)
Kerr

Also consider that longley was a much better player in 98 as opposed to 94.

This is not to say pippen is on the same line as jordan. But his impact was a lot higher than what you want to give him credit for

Jordan was 35 years old in 1998.Also he had injured index finger.
Pippen was 28 years old in 1994.

Jordan had more limited offensive teammates in 1998.Grant alone was better offensive player than Harper & Rodman combined. Grant & Armstrong were producing twice points Rodman & Harper combined.

Both good runs.. but i give edge Jordan because he was already injured 35 years old.Also 1994 Bulls was more balanced team than 1998 Bulls without Pippen.

But then again.. it's unfair for Pippen to comparing 82 games against 35 games.

[97 bulls]

Jordan was 35 years old in 1998.Also he had injured index finger.
Pippen was 28 years old in 1994.

Jordan had more limited offensive teammates in 1998.Grant alone was better offensive player than Harper & Rodman combined. Grant & Armstrong were producing twice points Rodman & Harper combined.

Both good runs.. but i give edge Jordan because he was already injured 35 years old.Also 1994 Bulls was more balanced team than 1998 Bulls without Pippen.

But then again.. it's unfair for Pippen to comparing 82 games against 35 games.
The offensive edge goes to the 94 bulls but the harper and rodman weree much better defensivly. And I can't eveen say that id give the offensive advantage to 94 cuz kukoc was a damn good offensive player with 5 years under his belt. Longley was also a much better offensive player with a few more years under his belt too. And rodman was not a bad offensive player. He just didn't shoot. And when he did, they were long jumpshots. There's no doubt in my mind that if rodman looked for his shot more, he'd been avg 10-12 ppg.

[Micku]

How bout we look at what actually happened. Who had the better team? Jordan in 98 withouut pippen. Or pippen in 94 without jordan?

The 98 bulls 24-11 without pippen

Harper
Jordan
Scott Burrell (pippens replacement)
Rodman
Longley
Kukoc with 5 years of experience
Kerr

94 bulls 55-27 without jordan

Armstrong
Pete Myers (jordans replacement)
Pippen
Grant
Longley
Kukoc (as a rookie)
Kerr

Also consider that longley was a much better player in 98 as opposed to 94.

This is not to say pippen is on the same line as jordan. But his impact was a lot higher than what you want to give him credit for

Well....in 1994, The Bulls record after 35 games was 24-11 with Pippen and Grant were in their prime/peak. It was same record as the 1998 Bulls team after 35 games.


In 1998, Jordan was 34/35 ish years old. Plus in 1998, all of them were struggling with injuries and old age as oppose to a much younger Bulls team in 1994.

While Pippen was an important person and factor of the Bulls team, the 1998 and 1994 were two different situations. Both were impressive tho in the regular season. In 1994, Pippen lead the team without their star player in Jordan. And in 1998, Jordan lead the team without Pippen and dealing with injuries/old age.

[ThemBombs]

182-228 (.444)

108-138 (.439) with the Bulls

:applause:
after seeing your username and avatar, i'd expect this kind of ****** thread from you.

Jordan>Kobe, Jordan always > Kobe, and Kobe is a fakkit. you hear that you pathetic bitchboy? a fakkit.
dumbass 12 year old. :roll:

[SpecialQue]

after seeing your username and avatar, i'd expect this kind of ****** thread from you.

Jordan>Kobe, Jordan always > Kobe, and Kobe is a fakkit. you hear that you pathetic bitchboy? a fakkit.
dumbass 12 year old. :roll:

It's this kind of insightful analysis that keeps me coming back to ISH!

Also, to keep it relevant, Jordan without Pippen = still a great player, even when he got old. Did he ever have a terrible year?

[Jacks3]

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/gallery/raremj/rare8.jpg

"chill out Mike, I'll guard him for you since you're getting lit the phuck up. just worry about scoring k?"
:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

You are the only one who needs to get real here.

This is a huge poll too given they are surveying coaches, players, trainers as well as GMs so its not like its a small sample size.

And like I said, its possible more than 10% thought he was better than Jordan because we don't know who these people voted as their second best player. Those 13% that voted Hakeem may have had Scottie ahead of Jordan.

Its not about whether they're right or not (its not really close to me) but it was discussed at the time.

Basically, you're the one who is engaging in revisionism which is funny because you're calling others out for doing so.
Loco getting ethered.:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Well....in 1994, The Bulls record after 35 games was 24-11 with Pippen and Grant were in their prime/peak. It was same record as the 1998 Bulls team after 35 games.


In 1998, Jordan was 34/35 ish years old. Plus in 1998, all of them were struggling with injuries and old age as oppose to a much younger Bulls team in 1994.

While Pippen was an important person and factor of the Bulls team, the 1998 and 1994 were two different situations. Both were impressive tho in the regular season. In 1994, Pippen lead the team without their star player in Jordan. And in 1998, Jordan lead the team without Pippen and dealing with injuries/old age.
I wouldn't factor age too much. Jordan was still the best player in the league, and producing at an incredbly high level. Rodman was arguably the best athlete, was still a great defender, and still the leagues best rebounder.

I do agree that the jordan injury played a factor though. But for the most part, the 98 bulls were flat out a better team than the 94 bulls. Minus jordan and pippen. Armstrong was a much better shooter than harper, but harper was far and away the better defender, slasher, and rebounder. And his three point shot improved. And he was probably more clutch than armstrong.

Kukoc was a much better player than he was in 94. Longley was better too. And scott burrell was better than pete myers.

[Micku]

I wouldn't factor age too much. Jordan was still the best player in the league, and producing at an incredbly high level. Rodman was arguably the best athlete, was still a great defender, and still the leagues best rebounder.

I do agree that the jordan injury played a factor though. But for the most part, the 98 bulls were flat out a better team than the 94 bulls. Minus jordan and pippen. Armstrong was a much better shooter than harper, but harper was far and away the better defender, slasher, and rebounder. And his three point shot improved. And he was probably more clutch than armstrong.

Kukoc was a much better player than he was in 94. Longley was better too. And scott burrell was better than pete myers.

I disagree on the age, because I think they had lost athleticism, they get tired too fast, wouldn't be able to run as much, and/or could be more prone injury prone due to age or mileage. Like Pippen at the age of 34/35 was not the same player as he was when he was 28, when he lead the Bulls without Jordan. Rodman was also a better consistent defender in the early and mid 90s.

The same goes with Jordan. Jordan was better at the age of 28 than he was at the age of 34/35ish. The Bulls were overall better in the 96 or 97 season. And Jordan and Pippen weren't the only one suffering from injuries. Luc Longley also had a knee injury that season too, and some small injuries to the other players. The media called them old (I think they were the oldest team in the league?) and tired. The roleplayers weren't not as they once were, and most of the guys best years were gone.

It was different than the 1994 team. Pippen/Grant were in their prime/peak. Grant was an all-star that year (Jordan was the only all-star in 1998), and they were younger than the 1998 Bulls. They were a pretty good team, they just missed a solid SG replacement from Jordan.

But not say that the 1994 had better roleplayers or vice versa, it was just a different situation. In 1998, the bulls were old missing their second best player. In 1994, the Bulls Pippen/Grant were in their prime missing their best player.

[guy]

You are the only one who needs to get real here.

This is a huge poll too given they are surveying coaches, players, trainers as well as GMs so its not like its a small sample size.

And like I said, its possible more than 10% thought he was better than Jordan because we don't know who these people voted as their second best player. Those 13% that voted Hakeem may have had Scottie ahead of Jordan.

Its not about whether they're right or not (its not really close to me) but it was discussed at the time.

Basically, you're the one who is engaging in revisionism which is funny because you're calling others out for doing so.

Wow. I have a hard time believing that 10% actually believed that without any bias. Thats pretty shocking to me. Even with that being the case, it wasn't a debate you ever heard back then. I remember there being talks of Hakeem vs. Jordan, I also remember there were talks on who was the leader of the Bulls since Jordan was gone for a long time, but I don't ever remember anyone debating who was the actual better player of the two.

[Smoke117]

"let Phil Jackson take it away: 'Our quarterback on defense was Scottie Pippen. ‘Go get him, Luc,’ he’d yell to center Luc Longley. ‘Bring some help.’ All I needed to do was whistle, and Scottie would know instinctively how our defense should react. On the occasions when I signaled a player toward the bench to ask why he suddenly changed his defensive position, the standard reply was: ‘Scottie sent me.’ Which is why, when I met Dr. Buss in Hawaii last May, Scottie was my first choice among the prospective free agents.' (excerpted from The Last Season)."

His greatest strength was his knowledge of how things worked on the defensive end of the floor,” he said. “Scottie was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page. When he wasn’t at the top of the key harassing a guard as a special assignment, he was on the backside of our defense talking his teammates through different situations, whether it was a double team, trap or some other important aspect. Because of that, he was very vital to the run that we made.” - Phil Jackson

"The other thing that I remember probably most about Scottie was a sequence which he had to direct the defense. Scottie was our voice on defense. He had, as you can tell, a tremendous voice. He has a deep resonating voice that could be heard on the court. And he also had the ability to talk to his teammates, and send them and direct them. But we had to trap Stockton when he got over half court, and try to get the ball out of his hands. And he had to come from the farthest place on the court to trap with either Steve Kerr if he was guarding Stockton, or Ronnie Harper if he was guarding Stockton, so we could get the ball out of his hands. And then he had to get back to the other side of the court once Stockton got the ball out of his hands. I can remember him calling and directing the team during those situations. Those are the things that made Scottie not only a great player, but also a great team leader that was so important to our basketball club…." - Phil Jackson

“Well, you know, Scottie was like the utility defender. Whoever we needed between one and three to defend against, we used Scottie. Although we had a variety of guys, Johnny Bach our assistant coach used to call him Doberman. Send the Dobermans out there to get him. He and Michael would go out there and attack a player on the defensive end of the court, which was always such a good asset for a basketball club to be aggressive defensively…" -Phil Jackson

What was that again Oldschoolbball...Scottie Pippen only guarded 3's but what three times? I Guess his coach is senile in his old age and you know more than him? Besides the fact that your statement was just plain idiotic as I'd seen Pippen defend 1-5 and I Know for a fact I'd seen him defend 1-4 plenty of times so you were talking out of your ass maybe so next time don't embarrass yourself with your stupid troll bullshit. You came into this thread with a whirlwind of crap flying out of your mouth. You need to swallow it back up, son.

“Well, one of the ways we got competitive action on the court was to put the [Jordan and Pippen] on different teams and let them elevate the game in practice a little bit. We would do that maybe once a month or twice a month just to get the competitive action on the court." - Phil Jackson

[97 bulls]

I disagree on the age, because I think they had lost athleticism, they get tired too fast, wouldn't be able to run as much, and/or could be more prone injury prone due to age or mileage. Like Pippen at the age of 34/35 was not the same player as he was when he was 28, when he lead the Bulls without Jordan. Rodman was also a better consistent defender in the early and mid 90s.

The same goes with Jordan. Jordan was better at the age of 28 than he was at the age of 34/35ish. The Bulls were overall better in the 96 or 97 season. And Jordan and Pippen weren't the only one suffering from injuries. Luc Longley also had a knee injury that season too, and some small injuries to the other players. The media called them old (I think they were the oldest team in the league?) and tired. The roleplayers weren't not as they once were, and most of the guys best years were gone.

It was different than the 1994 team. Pippen/Grant were in their prime/peak. Grant was an all-star that year (Jordan was the only all-star in 1998), and they were younger than the 1998 Bulls. They were a pretty good team, they just missed a solid SG replacement from Jordan.

But not say that the 1994 had better roleplayers or vice versa, it was just a different situation. In 1998, the bulls were old missing their second best player. In 1994, the Bulls Pippen/Grant were in their prime missing their best player.
They were the oldest team in the league. But age ain't nothing but a number. I don't feel jordan was that far off from where he was at 28. Did he lose athleticism? Sure. But not as drastic as you and others make it seem. The same goes for rodman. Rodman did an amazing job on karl malone in the nbs finals. And still led the league in rebounds. Pippen on the other hand, along with being 35 had a bad back. And its not just those three players. What about kukocs improvement over his rookie season in 94? What about harper? Randy brown was an amazing defender and added a dimension the 1st threepeat bulls didn't have. Jason caffey was an improvement from scott williams. Luc longley was considered a bust when he joined the bulls. He had evolved into a solid center. And bill cartwright was done by 94. So done that they went out and traded for longley. Who only played a in 20 games himself.

[Micku]

They were the oldest team in the league. But age ain't nothing but a number. I don't feel jordan was that far off from where he was at 28. Did he lose athleticism? Sure. But not as drastic as you and others make it seem. The same goes for rodman. Rodman did an amazing job on karl malone in the nbs finals. And still led the league in rebounds. Pippen on the other hand, along with being 35 had a bad back. And its not just those three players. What about kukocs improvement over his rookie season in 94? What about harper? Randy brown was an amazing defender and added a dimension the 1st threepeat bulls didn't have. Jason caffey was an improvement from scott williams. Luc longley was considered a bust when he joined the bulls. He had evolved into a solid center. And bill cartwright was done by 94. So done that they went out and traded for longley. Who only played a in 20 games himself.

Age does matters. You can see that Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan, Iverson, Shaq, and others. Look at every star player who is 35ish, they are slower, not as explosive, not enough stamina, more injury prone, and just not the player as they used to be. Injuries or not. Some players don't even play at that age. It's very rare when a player is at their peak at 34/35ish. While age matters, it doesn't mean that they aren't good players. I suppose we'll agree to disagree on that.

Jordan and the others in 1998 was still good enough to have a solid record without Pippen. The same record in 35 games as Pippen had in 1994 without Jordan. The 1998 Bulls team dealt with injuries. Longley had knee problems, Rodman didn't start for a bit, Jordan had his injury, Kukoc was out for a game or two when Pippen was out. Kukoc had to mold himself back into the game, and the rest of the 1998 roster played like crap in the beginning. At least they didn't play like the did in the previous two seasons. The media criticize them for that, along with being old, tired, and not as crisp as they used to be.

In comparison to the 1994, where that team had two all-stars (1998 only had one), a peak Pippen and a prime Grant, and a younger team. You had Armstrong, and they added a few more pieces in Kukoc, Kerr, Longley. Kukoc and Longley would get better as the years pass.

My whole point is that they were two different teams and two different situations. But, a Jordan lead Bulls team did receive the same record as the 1994 Bulls after 35 games without Pippen in 1998.

[Dragonyeuw]

You said if all I value is scoring and nothing else. That implies all Jordan did was score and nothing else, tangible or intangible.



Well if you're just talking about leadership you can call Kobe and Fisher 1a/1b or Bird and DJ 1a/1b or Duncan and Ginobili 1a/1b. These topics about 1/2 or 1a/1b (which is stupid IMO anyway, cause distinguishing a from b clearly indicates a superiority just like 1/2) is usually about impact/greatness, and who the better player is. Leadership is also a factor in who the better player is. Taking everything into account, its clear that Jordan and Pippen were always 1/2.

No it doesn't imply that at all. Asides from scoring, what other phase of the game was there any dramatic difference? Rebounding? Defense? Passing? Pretty much on par in terms of game impact. I never said Jordan did nothing but score, that's what you choose to take from my statement.

And no, I'm not JUST talking about leadership. But, It's obvious from Phil's own mouth that Scottie was the glue on defense, directing the team, as well as initiating the triangle. Aside from taking a secondary scoring role, Pippen took the on court lead in many instances. And again, his skills/abilities sans scoring are basically on par, and then you throw on top of that everything I said above. You guys look at it strictly from the standpoint of who's the 'better' player. I'm looking at several elements ie role, on court performance, leadership. All I've ever said is that Jordan and Pippen had closer to a 1a & 1b dynamic from 96-98, compared to 91-93. As this is all subjective opinion, I'm not expanding much more energy justifying my view.

[guy]

No it doesn't imply that at all. Asides from scoring, what other phase of the game was there any dramatic difference? Rebounding? Defense? Passing? Pretty much on par in terms of game impact. I never said Jordan did nothing but score, that's what you choose to take from my statement.

Okay, if there isn't a dramatic difference in anything except for one huge part of the game, scoring in this case, then I don't see how its not clear as day who was #1 and the most important player on that team.



And no, I'm not JUST talking about leadership. But, It's obvious from Phil's own mouth that Scottie was the glue on defense, directing the team, as well as initiating the triangle. Aside from taking a secondary scoring role, Pippen took the on court lead in many instances. And again, his skills/abilities sans scoring are basically on par, and then you throw on top of that everything I said above. You guys look at it strictly from the standpoint of who's the 'better' player. I'm looking at several elements ie role, on court performance, leadership. All I've ever said is that Jordan and Pippen had closer to a 1a & 1b dynamic from 96-98, compared to 91-93. As this is all subjective opinion, I'm not expanding much more energy justifying my view.

You said you were talking about locker-room presence and on-court leadership. Thats leadership.

Sure it was CLOSER. Jordan was a better player that could take more of a load in the first 3-peat and Pippen was a better player that could take more of a load in the second 3-peat. But it was still clear as day who was the man on that team. Maybe there was an article here and there that suggested otherwise. But this was far from a Lebron/Wade type duo or even a Durant/Westbrook or Melo/Amare.

[OldSchoolBBall]

"
What was that again Oldschoolbball...Scottie Pippen only guarded 3's but what three times? I Guess his coach is senile in his old age and you know more than him? Besides the fact that your statement was just plain idiotic as I'd seen Pippen defend 1-5 and I Know for a fact I'd seen him defend 1-4 plenty of times so you were talking out of your ass maybe so next time don't embarrass yourself with your stupid troll bullshit. You came into this thread with a whirlwind of crap flying out of your mouth. You need to swallow it back up, son.

You know shit. Find me a SINGLE GAME during the years MJ was there when Pippen guarded anything other than the SF for an entire game save for these exceptions:

1) Magic (who had SF size anyway) in the 1991 Finals, whom he guarded ~50% of the time along with Jordan

2) 73 year old Mark Jackson in the 1998 playoffs.

3) Penny (again, who had SF size anyway at 6'7") in the 1996 ECF, whom he guarded ~70% of the time.

He also tried to guard Barkley briefly during the '91 playoffs when the Sixers were running Barkley at SF in the lineup. Didn't work out too well at all. He did some time (~10% of the series) on Drexler when MJ had to be switched onto Porter or Ainge when they were torching BJ/Paxson in the 1992 Finals.

Please - PLEASE - find me a single game besides this where Pippen guarded anything other than the opposing SF. Until then, please stfu and stop acting like you know what you're talking about just because you've read some bullshit quotes - I don't care who they're from. I've seen ~500 Bulls games and this is a FACT. Deal with reality.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't feel jordan was that far off from where he was at 28.

This is all you need to know about this dude. :oldlol: Jordan at 35 wasn't far off from where he was at 28? At age 28, he had arguably THE SINGLE BEST SEASON OF ALL TIME FOR ANY PLAYER. At age 35, there are at least 30 seasons by himself and other players that are better. Big difference. It's like saying Shaq was the same in 2000 and 2005 in Miami.

[Dragonyeuw]

Okay, if there isn't a dramatic difference in anything except for one huge part of the game, scoring in this case, then I don't see how its not clear as day who was #1 and the most important player on that team.



You said you were talking about locker-room presence and on-court leadership. Thats leadership.

Sure it was CLOSER. Jordan was a better player that could take more of a load in the first 3-peat and Pippen was a better player that could take more of a load in the second 3-peat. But it was still clear as day who was the man on that team. Maybe there was an article here and there that suggested otherwise. But this was far from a Lebron/Wade type duo or even a Durant/Westbrook or Melo/Amare.

Hence why I said 1A(Jordan) and 1B(Pippen) in the 2nd 3peat. Regardless of whether its 1A and 1B, or 1 and 2, in both circumstances Jordan is the man overall. Are you really going to invest this much time debating that one point, about how I subjectively choose to label the dynamics of their relationship to the team? Even from a scoring argument, yeah Jordan was the better scorer but a good case can be made that Pippen was the more impactful defender from 96-98. Doesn't that lessen, even slightly, the scoring advantage that Jordan holds? I mean, Jordan is 1 and Pippen is 2 on the offensive side of things. No debate on that. What about defensively? Pippen was 1 and Jordan 2 from 96-98? 1A and 1B? What about him being the on-court leader, in terms of being the glue defensively and directing the offense? None of that matters, just the fact that Jordan took the clear lead in scoring?

I said I wasn't SPECIFICALLY or ONLY talking about on-court impact, but did include other factors like Leadership, intangibles, yadda yadda. I've never said Pippen's impact= Jordan's strictly in terms of in-game impact. I've said that including other factors into the equation, that it was CLOSER to a 1a and 1b in the second 3peat, then the first one. That's what I said originally.....IT WAS CLOSER. That point was then taken, and a whole pile of hoopla came out of it. Honestly, it's not worth as much effort as you're putting into it. I say it was closer to 1A and 1B. You say it was 1 and 2. At the end of the day, who really gives a shit??

[Smoke117]

You know shit. Find me a SINGLE GAME during the years MJ was there when Pippen guarded anything other than the SF for an entire game save for these exceptions:

1) Magic (who had SF size anyway) in the 1991 Finals, whom he guarded ~50% of the time along with Jordan

2) 73 year old Mark Jackson in the 1998 playoffs.

3) Penny (again, who had SF size anyway at 6'7") in the 1996 ECF, whom he guarded ~70% of the time.

He also tried to guard Barkley briefly during the '91 playoffs when the Sixers were running Barkley at SF in the lineup. Didn't work out too well at all. He did some time (~10% of the series) on Drexler when MJ had to be switched onto Porter or Ainge when they were torching BJ/Paxson in the 1992 Finals.

Please - PLEASE - find me a single game besides this where Pippen guarded anything other than the opposing SF. Until then, please stfu and stop acting like you know what you're talking about just because you've read some bullshit quotes - I don't care who they're from. I've seen ~500 Bulls games and this is a FACT. Deal with reality.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

"Scottie Pippen scores 35 points and adds 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks vs. the Suns. His defense against Barkley was the key to the game. Barkley was taking advantage of the Bulls weak interior defense until Pippen started guarding him making a series of great defensive plays. As a result Pippen held Barkley without a score for nearly 2 qtrs and the Bulls took over the game."

You were saying? Let me help you with what you should be saying: I'm going to shut the **** up and stop talking about things I have no idea about. We are not a bunch of just Scottie Pippen fan boys over glorifying him. We actually know what we are talking about. You on the other hand obviously have pedestrian knowledge of him and his career, so why don't just go sit in the corner like a good little boy an keep your mouth shut for the duration of this thread? You don't LEAD THE ENTIRE LEAGUE IN DRATING FOR AN SEASON AS A SF just guarding sf's genius.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

"Scottie Pippen scores 35 points and adds 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks vs. the Suns. His defense against Barkley was the key to the game. Barkley was taking advantage of the Bulls weak interior defense until Pippen started guarding him making a series of great defensive plays. As a result Pippen held Barkley without a score for nearly 2 qtrs and the Bulls took over the game."

You were saying? Let me help you with what you should be saying: I'm going to shut the **** up and stop talking about things I have no idea about.

:applause:

[guy]

Hence why I said 1A(Jordan) and 1B(Pippen) in the 2nd 3peat. Regardless of whether its 1A and 1B, or 1 and 2, in both circumstances Jordan is the man overall. Are you really going to invest this much time debating that one point, about how I subjectively choose to label the dynamics of their relationship to the team? Even from a scoring argument, yeah Jordan was the better scorer but a good case can be made that Pippen was the more impactful defender from 96-98. Doesn't that lessen, even slightly, the scoring advantage that Jordan holds? I mean, Jordan is 1 and Pippen is 2 on the offensive side of things. No debate on that. What about defensively? Pippen was 1 and Jordan 2 from 96-98? 1A and 1B? What about him being the on-court leader, in terms of being the glue defensively and directing the offense? None of that matters, just the fact that Jordan took the clear lead in scoring?

Like you said, there was no dramatic difference in anything other then scoring. Thats including defense. Pippen was the better defender, but the difference wasn't that significant. And Pippen directing the offense wasn't that impactful. Its not like he was CP3 or Nash in that regard, which is another thing thats been overexaggerated over the years.



I said I wasn't SPECIFICALLY or ONLY talking about on-court impact, but did include other factors like Leadership, intangibles, yadda yadda. I've never said Pippen's impact= Jordan's strictly in terms of in-game impact. I've said that including other factors into the equation, that it was CLOSER to a 1a and 1b in the second 3peat, then the first one. That's what I said originally.....IT WAS CLOSER. That point was then taken, and a whole pile of hoopla came out of it. Honestly, it's not worth as much effort as you're putting into it. I say it was closer to 1A and 1B. You say it was 1 and 2. At the end of the day, who really gives a shit??

Leadership, intangibles all results in on-court impact. Everything that makes a player and his team great results in on-court impact. Yes, I think it was closer to 1A and 1B then it was in the first 3-peat, but it was still more of a 1 and 2 overall. Maybe you're not doing this, but 1A and 1B suggests that 1B actually has a case over 1A. Thats laughable to suggest in this case. I don't know what it is that made Pippen go from underrated to so overrated over the years. A big hoopla was made cause its an incredibly bizarre thing to suggest. Agree to disagree.

[NugzHeat3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

"Scottie Pippen scores 35 points and adds 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks vs. the Suns. His defense against Barkley was the key to the game. Barkley was taking advantage of the Bulls weak interior defense until Pippen started guarding him making a series of great defensive plays. As a result Pippen held Barkley without a score for nearly 2 qtrs and the Bulls took over the game."

You were saying? Let me help you with what you should be saying: I'm going to shut the **** up and stop talking about things I have no idea about. We are not a bunch of just Scottie Pippen fan boys over glorifying him. We actually know what we are talking about. You on the other hand obviously have pedestrian knowledge of him and his career, so why don't just go sit in the corner like a good little boy an keep your mouth shut for the duration of this thread? You don't LEAD THE ENTIRE LEAGUE IN DRATING FOR AN SEASON AS A SF just guarding sf's genius.
He is obviously talking about the time he spent playing with Jordan and I'm inclined to agree with him to be honest. This game is before Jordan announced his return.

For the most part, Pippen did guard as SFs as his primary man.

[LBJFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

"Scottie Pippen scores 35 points and adds 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks vs. the Suns. His defense against Barkley was the key to the game. Barkley was taking advantage of the Bulls weak interior defense until Pippen started guarding him making a series of great defensive plays. As a result Pippen held Barkley without a score for nearly 2 qtrs and the Bulls took over the game."

You were saying? Let me help you with what you should be saying: I'm going to shut the **** up and stop talking about things I have no idea about. We are not a bunch of just Scottie Pippen fan boys over glorifying him. We actually know what we are talking about. You on the other hand obviously have pedestrian knowledge of him and his career, so why don't just go sit in the corner like a good little boy an keep your mouth shut for the duration of this thread? You don't LEAD THE ENTIRE LEAGUE IN DRATING FOR AN SEASON AS A SF just guarding sf's genius.

http://www.freewebs.com/korngirl17/Owned-Connect4.jpg

[97 bulls]

Age does matters. You can see that Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan, Iverson, Shaq, and others. Look at every star player who is 35ish, they are slower, not as explosive, not enough stamina, more injury prone, and just not the player as they used to be. Injuries or not. Some players don't even play at that age. It's very rare when a player is at their peak at 34/35ish. While age matters, it doesn't mean that they aren't good players. I suppose we'll agree to disagree on that.

Jordan and the others in 1998 was still good enough to have a solid record without Pippen. The same record in 35 games as Pippen had in 1994 without Jordan. The 1998 Bulls team dealt with injuries. Longley had knee problems, Rodman didn't start for a bit, Jordan had his injury, Kukoc was out for a game or two when Pippen was out. Kukoc had to mold himself back into the game, and the rest of the 1998 roster played like crap in the beginning. At least they didn't play like the did in the previous two seasons. The media criticize them for that, along with being old, tired, and not as crisp as they used to be.

In comparison to the 1994, where that team had two all-stars (1998 only had one), a peak Pippen and a prime Grant, and a younger team. You had Armstrong, and they added a few more pieces in Kukoc, Kerr, Longley. Kukoc and Longley would get better as the years pass.

My whole point is that they were two different teams and two different situations. But, a Jordan lead Bulls team did receive the same record as the 1994 Bulls after 35 games without Pippen in 1998.
Age is an important factor in a general sense. But were not talking in general. Were talking about specific players. Jordan was stiill a damn good ball player at 40. And you must remember that jordan as far as seasons go was not your typical 34 year old. He missed two years due to retiring. He missed another year with that broken ankle. So his body didn't have the milage that a typical 34 year old would have.

The same goes for dennis rodman. He didn't start playing in the nba until he was 25. And even after that, he didn't see big minutes until around 89. So while he mayve been 35, he had the mileage of a 30 year old. Not to mention even at 33, phil jackson called him the greatest athlete he'd ever seen.

And its always seeemed funny to me that the all-star game is always looked upon as a non-factor when its mentioned that pippen won an all-star game mvp. But you pippen detractors love to try to use grant and armstrong making the all-star game against pippen. Which I find laughable since they never ever even came remotely close to returning to another one. Not to mention that while jordan didn't have an all-star, he did have another hall of famer on the team in rodman.

And let's be reasonable micku. If your gonna use injuries and starts and age to defend your point at least acknowledge the other side. Pippen and grant missed 10 and 12 games a piece in 94. Kukoc was trying to find his way and adjust to the nba game, seeing as how he came from europe. Longley wasn't a bull the whole season. They had to roll with bill cartwright. Who would retire the next season. And played in less games than longley did in 98. And he was 36. A legit 36 I might add. In fact, just at a glance, id say the core players on the 94 bulls misssed more games than the 98 bulls core players (minus pippen).

[97 bulls]

This is all you need to know about this dude. :oldlol: Jordan at 35 wasn't far off from where he was at 28? At age 28, he had arguably THE SINGLE BEST SEASON OF ALL TIME FOR ANY PLAYER. At age 35, there are at least 30 seasons by himself and other players that are better. Big difference. It's like saying Shaq was the same in 2000 and 2005 in Miami.
Lol think about what your saying. Out of every player that's ever played in the nba, season to season, of each player, there's roughly only 30 seasons that's better? That would still put jordans 98 mvp/championship season in the top 1%.

[Dragonyeuw]

but 1A and 1B suggests that 1B actually has a case over 1A. Thats laughable to suggest in this case.



No, it doesn't. It's only laughable that you draw that conclusion out of thin air( which falls in line with other incorrect conclusions you've drawn from prior posts). Nothing I've said IN ANY WAY hints that I believe Pippen has a case over Jordan. And if you're in any way confused on that, PIPPEN HAS NO CASE OVER JORDAN. Clear?




A big hoopla was made cause its an incredibly bizarre thing to suggest.



The hoopla is your hangup on what is ultimately a subjective term. 1A and 1b, or 1 and 2. As I already said, who really cares? The only person hung up on the terminology is you. As far as it being bizarre, considering the soundbites that were posted earlier in the thread, it doesn't seem THAT inconceivable that many people saw Pippen as having a 1b type of importance in the 2nd threepeat. It's not a bizarre notion in the least. The only thing that would be bizarre, is if I came out and said Pippen was the best player on the Bulls title teams. THAT's bizarre.




Agree to disagree.



Pretty much...nice that you came to a conclusion I reached 2 pages ago. I'll take the blame for continuing to respond.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You were saying? Let me help you with what you should be saying: I'm going to shut the **** up and stop talking about things I have no idea about. We are not a bunch of just Scottie Pippen fan boys over glorifying him. We actually know what we are talking about.

No, you dont. In fact, you cant even read:


Find me a SINGLE GAME during the years MJ was there

Don't think I didn't know about that game, btw. :oldlol: In fact, I knew it would be one you would point to.

AGAIN, Pippen exclusively guarded SF's with a few exceptions which I previously noted, in the 9 full seasons that he and MJ were on the Bulls together.

[Smoke117]

No, you dont. In fact, you cant even read:



Don't think I didn't know about that game, btw. :oldlol: In fact, I knew it would be one you would point to.

AGAIN, Pippen exclusively guarded SF's with a few exceptions which I previously noted, in the 9 full seasons that he and MJ were on the Bulls together.

I didn't catch that you are right but what does it matter whether Jordan was there or not. Pippen had the most dominant defensive seasons of any perimeter (pg to sf) player ever in 94 and especially 95 when Jordan and Grant (95) WEREN'T THERE, period. When he had to step it up, he stepped it up in a big way. Besides you don't even know what you are talking about. You talk as if Scottie just stood by the sf he was guarding waiting for him to get the ball. Scottie Pippen is maybe the greatest help defender of all time. He was always all over the court...that's kind of what made him so special in 94 and 95...not being stuck to ONE player. This nonsense of who you can guard one on one has always been overrated. (whether or not Pippen could guard 1-4 effectively as he could) Team defense matters the most and nobody EVER did that better on the perimeter than Scottie Pippen. There is a reason that Phil Jackson labeled him the "one man wrecking crew" after that beat down of the Jazz in game 3 of the 98 finals 96-54. I don't think Phil called him that because he was guarding Byron Russell so well.:facepalm It's because of how completely he disrupted their offense. I'm done arguing with a clown like you.

[Quizno]

Michol Jordon

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'm done arguing with a clown like you.

No, you're done arguing because you were wrong and have no evidence at all. Deal with reality.

[LBJFTW]

Michol Jordon

^
lol

/thread

[monkeypox]

FYI the Jordon thing is some old school troll meme.

[guy]

The hoopla is your hangup on what is ultimately a subjective term. 1A and 1b, or 1 and 2. As I already said, who really cares? The only person hung up on the terminology is you.


Its really not much a subjective term when about 99% of people use it to imply that one was arguably as great or greater then the other (in whatever category you look at - importance, ability, impact, etc.) The mere use of 1a/1b vs. just a simple 1/2 reflects that. Whatever the case, you believe what you want to believe and you've clarified yourself. I'm not going to continue arguing cause all we're arguing about is terminology like you said, but my point is that terminology is clearly misleading when its almost always used as a different meaning.

[97 bulls]

Hey Guy, het me ask you a question...

Was Scottie Pippen a franchise player?

[guy]

I read a lot of articles from that time period and I've seen a few call Pippen the best all around player in the league and the MVP of the team. Even guys like Danny Ainge who was doing color for TNT that season said he may have been the MVP.

That's a little understandable because Jordan was still getting in shape and Pippen was having a great year up till all the injuries piled up.

But you're right, I never saw anybody call him the best player flat-out so that was shocking to me as well.

Like I said, if its alot of players then I wouldn't be surprised if there was some bias to that. For example, I know MVP doesn't always mean best player, but back in the 80s and 90s it was alot closer to meaning that. And in the years Jordan and Pippen played together Pippen only got 1 first place vote and that was in 92, not any time during the 2nd three-peat. Those are from journalists that are alot more objective and unbias.

[BlueandGold]

Anyone who thinks the Pippen-Jordan relationship was 1a/1b obviously did not watch games from back then. Jordan was by the far not only the undisputed leader of that team but of the entire league. It was Jordan who won MVP and FMVP during the greatest season ever (72-10) and it was Jordan who lost the MVP race the following year to Malone by a mere margin of votes (one of the greatest MVP robberies of all time). It was Jordan who had won MVPs before Pippen even showed up in town and it was Jordan that Pippen looked to for guidance up until the point that Jordan left the league (the 2nd time).

And here's my last point: It was Jordan who always had the ball late and frankly whenever he wanted to because no one on that team or in the league knew to cross him.

[guy]

Hey Guy, het me ask you a question...

Was Scottie Pippen a franchise player?

Whats your definition of one? I think he was a guy that in his all-star years, 90-98, could lead average teams to the playoffs most years fluctuating around 45-55 wins with maybe a year or two lower or higher then that. I don't think he could've won a championship as the lead guy unless it was on a very balanced team like the Bad Boy Pistons, 04 Pistons, or 08 Celtics, not on the type where he would need to carry a huge load at times.

[Dragonyeuw]

Its really not much a subjective term when about 99% of people use it to imply that one was arguably as great or greater then the other (in whatever category you look at - importance, ability, impact, etc.) The mere use of 1a/1b vs. just a simple 1/2 reflects that. Whatever the case, you believe what you want to believe and you've clarified yourself. I'm not going to continue arguing cause all we're arguing about is terminology like you said, but my point is that terminology is clearly misleading when its almost always used as a different meaning.

Actually it is totally subjective what factors people use to judge what a 1A and a 1B is, versus a 1 and 2 scenario. You and I, for instance, have a different view on what it means in the context of this debate. I've already more than clarified what I mean by the 1a and 1b dynamic with Jordan-Pippen circa 2nd 3peat. I don't really care if that view differs from yours, or some '99%' of people who you claim see it your way. That number is totally baseless, by the way. What evidence do you have to back up that 99% of people use the term in the way you suggest? Actually don't answer that, because that will spawn another debate. I'm not really interested at this stage.

[jlip]

Anyone who thinks the Pippen-Jordan relationship was 1a/1b obviously did not watch games from back then. Jordan was by the far not only the undisputed leader of that team but of the entire league. It was Jordan who won MVP and FMVP during the greatest season ever (72-10) and it was Jordan who lost the MVP race the following year to Malone by a mere margin of votes (one of the greatest MVP robberies of all time). It was Jordan who had won MVPs before Pippen even showed up in town and it was Jordan that Pippen looked to for guidance up until the point that Jordan left the league (the 2nd time).

And here's my last point: It was Jordan who always had the ball late and frankly whenever he wanted to because no one on that team or in the league knew to cross him.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071609&postcount=80

[Smoke117]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071609&postcount=80

Exactly.

[97 bulls]

Whats your definition of one? I think he was a guy that in his all-star years, 90-98, could lead average teams to the playoffs most years fluctuating around 45-55 wins with maybe a year or two lower or higher then that. I don't think he could've won a championship as the lead guy unless it was on a very balanced team like the Bad Boy Pistons, 04 Pistons, or 08 Celtics, not on the type where he would need to carry a huge load at times.
By load id assume you mean offensive load. This is kind of ironic considering that no player has ever won an nba title and led the league in scoring in the same season aside from jordan.

This is why id say is what you would call a team where two players are 1A and 1B. In this sense "1" meaning franchise. And the "A" and "B" who was the better of the two. Even tier.

And I don't mean 1st "option". That's a term used to define who a teams main scorer is. Or who they run the offense through. And people like to use it to denote who the teams best player is.

But to answer your question, yes if you are the best player on a team capable of winning 50-55 wins then yes your a franchise player. And pippen was that. It doesn't mean he's better than jordan. Just capable of being a 1 player.

[barnett114]

These Kobe fantards are crazy.

[Micku]

Age is an important factor in a general sense. But were not talking in general. Were talking about specific players. Jordan was stiill a damn good ball player at 40. And you must remember that jordan as far as seasons go was not your typical 34 year old. He missed two years due to retiring. He missed another year with that broken ankle. So his body didn't have the milage that a typical 34 year old would have.

The same goes for dennis rodman. He didn't start playing in the nba until he was 25. And even after that, he didn't see big minutes until around 89. So while he mayve been 35, he had the mileage of a 30 year old. Not to mention even at 33, phil jackson called him the greatest athlete he'd ever seen.

And its always seeemed funny to me that the all-star game is always looked upon as a non-factor when its mentioned that pippen won an all-star game mvp. But you pippen detractors love to try to use grant and armstrong making the all-star game against pippen. Which I find laughable since they never ever even came remotely close to returning to another one. Not to mention that while jordan didn't have an all-star, he did have another hall of famer on the team in rodman.

And let's be reasonable micku. If your gonna use injuries and starts and age to defend your point at least acknowledge the other side. Pippen and grant missed 10 and 12 games a piece in 94. Kukoc was trying to find his way and adjust to the nba game, seeing as how he came from europe. Longley wasn't a bull the whole season. They had to roll with bill cartwright. Who would retire the next season. And played in less games than longley did in 98. And he was 36. A legit 36 I might add. In fact, just at a glance, id say the core players on the 94 bulls misssed more games than the 98 bulls core players (minus pippen).

Jordan was a great b-ball player through out his years. But Jordan at the age of 40 was not the same player when he was 35. Same thing with the 35 and 28. It's almost like saying Shaq at the age of 35 is the same player when he was 28, and that's not true. You can check the stats and you can look at interviews. In the interviews they will mention their age and what they could do when they were younger that they couldn't do now. And statistically Jordan had better years, and at the age of 35ish, he wasn't in his prime/peak. Jordan was quicker, possibly stronger, more explosive at the rim, and was a better playmaker in his late 20s as oppose when he was 35ish.

Don't get me wrong, Rodman was great still. But Rodman also seen better years. He was 37 years old that year, and while the best rebounder in the league, his defense wasn't as consistent as it was the previous years.

I'm not bashing Pippen or anything. I just don't deny that Grant basically peaked that year in his basketball career. He still had a pretty solid good years in Orlando, but in 1994 Grant stats were better than ever. Grant was a deserving All-Star and the 2nd all team defensive team. And you are wrong about Grant not coming close any other year. Grant had more votes to becoming an All-Star in 1995 when he was in the Orlando Magic than in 1994 when he was with the Bulls. Both Grant and Pippen started to become great players in 1992. They peaked in 1994.

And B.J. Armstrong was always pretty solid. He just had more of a green light to score since Jordan was out of the picture too. Almost all the Bulls had a green light to score and show off their stuff. Especially Pippen and Grant.

And I do acknowledge the other side. I acknowledge both sides. Pippen was probably the best SF in the 90s, and he was at his prime/peak in 1994 along with Grant and B.J. Armstrong. They obviously had newcomers and everything, and they didn't have a replacement for Jordan. If they had a solid SG, then they would totally kill. However in 1998, Jordan and the rest of his cast members were old and injured. As I have been saying through out this debate, they were two different situations. But, Jordan without Pippen in 1998 had the same record as Pippen did in 1994 when Pippen and Grant were in their prime/peak.

And the Hall of Fame argument is a bit fallacy in a way. For example, Shaq in Cleveland was a Hall of Famer, but he wasn't an all-star that specific year. An All-Star is how well are you playing right now as oppose to a Hall of Famer, which is how well you played in your NBA career. It's different.

Don't get me wrong tho, Rodman was still a stud in 1998. Best rebounder, and a pretty good defender. He just had better years, and he wasn't an All-Star that year.

[Micku]

And there was no such thing as Jordan 1a and Pippen 1b. Jordan was always the main guy in both threepeats and beyond.

Similar to how Larry Bird and Kevin Mchale were in the mid 80s. Kevin Mchale was great in his prime. But Larry Bird was the leader of the team.

Jordan and Pippen were just one of the best of the one and two combo.

[Smoke117]

And there was no such thing as Jordan 1a and Pippen 1b. Jordan was always the main guy in both threepeats and beyond.

Similar to how Larry Bird and Kevin Mchale were in the mid 80s. Kevin Mchale was great in his prime. But Larry Bird was the leader of the team.

Jordan and Pippen were just one of the best of the one and two combo.


Yeah but that wasn't really the case here. No one is disputing that jordan was the best player on the team, but Pippen was pretty much the undisputed leader especially during that 2nd threepeat. Phil Jackson, Jerry Buss, and pretty much all the former Bulls players have pretty much said so.

[Micku]

Yeah but that wasn't really the case here. No one is disputing that jordan was the best player on the team, but Pippen was pretty much the undisputed leader especially during that 2nd threepeat. Phil Jackson, Jerry Buss, and pretty much all the former Bulls players have pretty much said so.

The leadership thing was more like a Kareem/Magic feel I guess. Jordan would go off on them and hard on them on practice or on the floor, the alpha dog, while Pippen approach was different.

There are different types of leaders in the locker room. Like Oscar was the alpha dog of the 71 Bucks team, and he would go off on Kareem whenever he made a mistake, even though Kareem was the better player.

Magic/Kareem was similar. Magic was the showtime, and hardly anybody had a problem with Magic. Kareem was more hard on the Showtime Laker team. He was the captain.

Mourning and Shaq were the leaders of the Miami Heat team in 06. Wade was the best player. And etc, etc.

----

I did hear stories of how Jordan was hard on them. But I'm wondering how hard Larry Bird was on the Celtics. I only heard a couple of stories, but there might be a lot more.

[guy]

By load id assume you mean offensive load. This is kind of ironic considering that no player has ever won an nba title and led the league in scoring in the same season aside from jordan.

No not necessarily. Just load in general. And you're actually wrong about the last thing cause Kareem and Shaq have done it, and winning a scoring title doesn't mean you're the only player in the league with a huge scoring load so there's nothing ironic about it.



This is why id say is what you would call a team where two players are 1A and 1B. In this sense "1" meaning franchise. And the "A" and "B" who was the better of the two. Even tier.

Not sure how you came up with that. I don't understand how #1 doesn't denote best or most important. And Jordan and Pippen were never on an even tier.

[bond10]

Nor did I say it was equal to Jordan. I did say that the relationship was CLOSER to a 1a-1b in the 2nd threepeat, than it was in the first 3peat. And when I say that, I'm talking about Pippen's locker-room presence and on-court leadership, not specifically how much he impacted the game compared to Jordan.


Using that logic, Kobe and Fisher are 1a/1b

[Dragonyeuw]

Using that logic, Kobe and Fisher are 1a/1b

If you've followed my previous posts where I spoke more in-depth about the factors involved in reaching a 'close to 1a-1b dynamic', no the Kobe-Fisher analogy doesn't apply. And I'm not repeating those factors, because they were mentioned several times in earlier posts. What's funny is that the only thing I've said is it was CLOSER to a 1a-1b dynamic, not that it IS a 1a-1b dynamic, just CLOSER than it was in the first 3peat. Anyways, I'm not going around the bush again on this issue.

[bond10]

If you've followed my previous posts where I spoke more in-depth about the factors involved in reaching a 'close to 1a-1b dynamic', no the Kobe-Fisher analogy doesn't apply. What's funny is that the only thing I've said is it was CLOSER to a 1a-1b dynamic, not that it IS a 1a-1b dynamic, just CLOSER than it was in the first 3peat. And I'm not repeating those factors, because they were mentioned several times in earlier posts. Anyways, I'm not going around the bush again on this issue.

So...1/1.9999?

To Mr. Bryant + other Kobe agendas: if Pippen as good as Jordan was, doesn't that mean Pippen > Kobe ??? You guys literally shootin yoselves in the foot.

[Dragonyeuw]

So...1/1.9999?



It's a subjective term. Use whatever numbers or letters helps you sleep at night.

[32Dayz]

Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

The difference is clear and obvious.

[Smoke117]

Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

The difference is clear and obvious.

Frankly this thread has gone in a lot of different directions, but PER has never been really a good way to compare players as it overrates some things (scoring, percentages) and completely underrates other things. (defense) The fact that Scottie completely dominated the playoffs defensively in pretty much every playoff championship run is not going to show up in per. Anyway, we should just let this thread die now. Opinions have been made and are not going to be changed,but there is no doubt that the Bulls had two Super Stars during the 2nd threepeat and either one taken away during that threepeat and they aren't winning shit.

[Da_Realist]

Yeah but that wasn't really the case here. No one is disputing that jordan was the best player on the team, but Pippen was pretty much the undisputed leader especially during that 2nd threepeat. Phil Jackson, Jerry Buss, and pretty much all the former Bulls players have pretty much said so.

No, they didn't. They said Scottie was as much of a leader as Jordan. Jordan was the bad cop, but it was needed.

-- Michael ran the practices that kept everyone sharp (he called off practice when he felt the team needed a break and pushed for extra practice when he felt they were slacking off)

-- Organized a workout session in the mornings before practices (Breakfast Club) in his home with his trainer and chef where they could bond, work out and discuss game strategy without the coaches

-- Fought management for Pippen to get a better contract and to keep Jerry Krause off the team bus (players felt that Krause was taking advantage of player gossip during these rides by gathering personal information and using it against them in contract negotiations. It made players hesitant to open up and relax and kept team rides tense. Krause later admitted it.) Because of his stature on the team, only Jordan could have done this.

-- Lobbied hard for the team to keep Phil Jackson when he learned Jerry Krause wanted him gone after 1997. Jordan used his stature to keep the team together at least one more year.

-- Kept the team together when Pippen, sulking because of his contract situation, ended up missing 35 games in 1998 because he chose not to take care of his foot during the summer.

During the 1997 Finals, Pippen's foot gave him a great deal of pain, but he managed to play anyway. And yet when the season was over, he did not bother to have an operation on it, and the summer had passed. Most players usually avoided appointments with surgeons, no matter how benign the potential operation was said to be, but in this case, Pippen did not trust the Bulls or their doctors. As the season approached, Pippen, feeling powerless and singularly disrespected, chose the one way he could to get even: he did nothing about his foot. It was his way of sticking his finger in Krause's and Reinsdorf's eyes and a sign of how deep his anger was: He was willing to jeopardize both his health and his teammates chances.
Bad feeling and deeply rooted -- almost pathological -- distrust begat more bad feeling and more distrust. That summer, Pippen played in a couple of charity games sponsored by other players in the league, though his foot had neither been operated on nor cleared by the Bulls' doctors.
Because of his foot, a very angry Pippen was not ready when the season started...
Playing For Keeps
David Halberstam

And we now know he missed 35 games. By sticking it to the two Jerry's, he was also sticking it to his teammates and coaching staff. Somebody had to keep that team together during a time when Pippen actually threatened not to play another minute for the Chicago Bulls. The team did not know if Pippen would ever play with the team again until just before he suited up in January.

-- Set the example of playing hard, through injuries and personal squabbles, every night. No nights off. And they always knew they could lean on him when the rest of the team was having a bad night.

That team needed Jordan or they wouldn't have won anything but a few regular season games.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

The difference is clear and obvious.

What were the differences in Jordan and Pippen's PER averages from '91-93 and 96-98?

[32Dayz]

What were the differences in Jordan and Pippen's PER averages from '91-93 and 96-98?

Jordan (91-93) : 29.77
Jordan (96-98) : 27.3

Pippen (91-93) : 19.67
Pippen (96-98) : 19

Even if you think Pippen has overall better intangibals because of his defense and ignore the fact that Jordan was also a tremendous defender and had plenty of his own intangibles it cant possibly make up for such a massive difference in overall production.

Personally I find it hard to say Pippen had better intangibles then Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan (91-93) : 29.77
Jordan (96-98) : 27.3

Pippen (91-93) : 19.67
Pippen (96-98) : 19

:eek:

Thanks!

[97 bulls]

No not necessarily. Just load in general. And you're actually wrong about the last thing cause Kareem and Shaq have done it, and winning a scoring title doesn't mean you're the only player in the league with a huge scoring load so there's nothing ironic about it.



Not sure how you came up with that. I don't understand how #1 doesn't denote best or most important. And Jordan and Pippen were never on an even tier.
But that's the thing. I don't think anyone is arguing who was better between the two. Jordan was clearly better. But their respective contributions were on the same level. And both were number 1 type players. Similar to bron and wade, shaq and kobe, jabaar and robertson.

[32Dayz]

I don't think anyone is arguing who was better between the two. Jordan was clearly better. But their respective contributions were on the same level.

Hmm... not sure about that.

I feel its like.

Jordan + Shaq = 100/150
Kobe + Pippen = 50/150

[guy]

But that's the thing. I don't think anyone is arguing who was better between the two. Jordan was clearly better. But their respective contributions were on the same level. And both were number 1 type players. Similar to bron and wade, shaq and kobe, jabaar and robertson.

No. Not at all. Pippen didn't provide anything that Jordan didn't as well and anything he did better then Jordan was not a significant difference. On the other hand, Jordan was a significantly better scorer and clutch performer. There contributions were CLEARLY not on the same level. Saying that the difference between them was like Bron and Wade or even Shaq and Kobe is amazingly ridiculous.

[Smoke117]

Jordan (91-93) : 29.77
Jordan (96-98) : 27.3

Pippen (91-93) : 19.67
Pippen (96-98) : 19

Even if you think Pippen has overall better intangibals because of his defense and ignore the fact that Jordan was also a tremendous defender and had plenty of his own intangibles it cant possibly make up for such a massive difference in overall production.

Personally I find it hard to say Pippen had better intangibles then Jordan.

I'm not saying jordan wasn't a great defender but if we are going to use per than lets use drating. Pippen led the entire playoffs in 91 and 96 in drating. Over guys like Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson etc and he led the entire playoffs in defensive winshares in 91, 92, and 96, so while it's clear who was the man scoring wise it's pretty clear in the playoffs who was the one dominating on the defensive end. Acting like it's oh Pippen was just a bit better just plain isn't true not when Pippen is leading the playoffs in drating. That just means he is plain dominating and the best defensive player in the entire playoffs. It's a joke the way people think "oh you could just replace any 20ppg 2nd option with Scottie Pippen" and Michael Jordan would have won his championships. That is complete and utter bullshit. Scottie Pippen is not ranked typically in the 25-30 all time player range because he could score 20ppg, it's because he's the greatest defensive player EVER on the perimeter, the fact that he was basically a 6-7 PG and that he did everything you asked of him on the court. It makes it a lot easier for your team when you have a player who basically has every skill you can think of and has it at a high level.

[97 bulls]

No. Not at all. Pippen didn't provide anything that Jordan didn't as well and anything he did better then Jordan was not a significant difference. On the other hand, Jordan was a significantly better scorer and clutch performer.There contributions were CLEARLY not on the same level. Saying that the difference between them was like Bron and Wade or even Shaq and Kobe is amazingly ridiculous.
And here in lies your pov. Just come out and say scoring and clutch offense are the only thing that matters to you.

Pippen defensive versitlity and ability to run the offense as well as rebound and score puts his value pretty high. And he was every bit as clutch defensively as jordan was offensively.

[32Dayz]

@Smoke

I dont think the Bullz win without Pippen's contributions and infact I think Pippen made Jordan a better player the same way he did for him.

My point was I think Jordans contributions to those teams were much larger then Pippens but yeah they dont win without both of them.

[guy]

And here in lies your pov. Just come out and say scoring and clutch offense are the only thing that matters to you.

And here in lies your ignorance of my total point and you predictably trying to spin this into "YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT SCORING". Like I said, when it comes to everything there wasn't a significant difference between the two except in those two aspects and those are HUGE aspects that Jordan was significantly better at.

Put it like this. If everything is the same except Pippen was an equal scorer to Jordan but Jordan was also contributing alot more as a passer like lets say at Magic Johnson's level, I would say the same damn thing.



Pippen defensive versitlity and ability to run the offense as well as rebound and score puts his value pretty high.

Right. No one said it wasn't.



And he was every bit as clutch defensively as jordan was offensively.

No it wasn't. Jordan offensively is arguably the most clutch in the history of all of sports. And by the way, even if you were right, Jordan was just about every bit as clutch defensively as Pippen was so your point would be irrelevant anyway.

[guy]

2 questions I want to ask:

1. Since when did scoring get underrated? To the point that when you praise an elite scorer the response is "all you value is scoring"? Nevermind the fact that that isn't all I value, but the strong responses like that imply scoring isn't a huge part of the game.
2. Since when do we assume that the only thing all great scorers do is score? Especially the likes of one of the greatest all-around players ever, Michael Jordan? It seems like almost like a bad thing or at least not of any importance to some of you when a person averages 30 ppg because of your automatic perception of it.

Its almost like some of you try to diminish scoring cause you think it makes you look smarter or just to diminish or prop up certain players.

[97 bulls]

And here in lies your ignorance of my total point and you predictably trying to spin this into "YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT SCORING". Like I said, when it comes to everything there wasn't a significant difference between the two except in those two aspects and those are HUGE aspects that Jordan was significantly better at.

Put it like this. If everything is the same except Pippen was an equal scorer to Jordan but Jordan was also contributing alot more as a passer like lets say at Magic Johnson's level, I would say the same damn thing.



Right. No one said it wasn't.



No it wasn't. Jordan offensively is arguably the most clutch in the history of all of sports. And by the way, even if you were right, Jordan was just about every bit as clutch defensively as Pippen was so your point would be irrelevant anyway.
Jordan is regarded as the most clutch offensive player. But by the same token, if I needed a key stop at the end of a game, I'm picking pippen. And I'm not saying jordan couldn't or wasn't a great defender. It was a luxery both players provided for the each other. Jordan did the scoring (not saying he didn't defend) and pippen handled the larger defensive role. Along with scoring.

[guy]

Jordan is regarded as the most clutch offensive player. But by the same token, if I needed a key stop at the end of a game, I'm picking pippen. And I'm not saying jordan couldn't or wasn't a great defender. It was a luxery both players provided for the each other. Jordan did the scoring (not saying he didn't defend) and pippen handled the larger defensive role. Along with scoring.

The difference wasn't the same though. Maybe in a playoff series here and there, but not during the span of their careers together or in any large sample size.

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan is regarded as the most clutch offensive player. But by the same token, if I needed a key stop at the end of a game, I'm picking pippen. And I'm not saying jordan couldn't or wasn't a great defender. It was a luxery both players provided for the each other. Jordan did the scoring (not saying he didn't defend) and pippen handled the larger defensive role. Along with scoring.

Jordan proved he can make the clutch defensive play at the end of games as well. You can go take a look at the finals on that game 6 vs the Jazz stealing the ball from Malone. Pippen made the clutch play the year before diving on the ground in game 6 vs the Jazz kicking to Toni for the slam. They both were clutch on Defense, however MJ was clutch on offense while Pippen was not. 1997 for instance the Bulls with the chance to win back to back 70 games and MJ drives kicks it to Kerr who kicks it to a wide open Scottie and shoots a 3 that hits the other side of the backboard (didn't even hit rim). Bulls down 2-0 in 1994 and Pippen decides to sit out because the play wasn't designed for him and thus Toni hits the 3 to win it. If you are a clutch player on offense you would have plays designed for you at the end of the game and even when MJ wasn't there Phil decided to not even run the play thru Pippen.

[Smoke117]

Jordan proved he can make the clutch defensive play at the end of games as well. You can go take a look at the finals on that game 6 vs the Jazz stealing the ball from Malone. Pippen made the clutch play the year before diving on the ground in game 6 vs the Jazz kicking to Toni for the slam. They both were clutch on Defense, however MJ was clutch on offense while Pippen was not. 1997 for instance the Bulls with the chance to win back to back 70 games and MJ drives kicks it to Kerr who kicks it to a wide open Scottie and shoots a 3 that hits the other side of the backboard (didn't even hit rim). Bulls down 2-0 in 1994 and Pippen decides to sit out because the play wasn't designed for him and thus Toni hits the 3 to win it. If you are a clutch player on offense you would have plays designed for you at the end of the game and even when MJ wasn't there Phil decided to not even run the play thru Pippen.

Actually if you know anything about that, it wasn't even about designing the play for Kukoc and not for Pippen because of "clutchness". The previous possession for the bulls Pippen had made an amazingly clutch shot. The reason the play was written up for Kukoc and not Pippen was that Phil felt that they would be gunning for Pippen (obviously) and there was a better chance to get a good shot off if Pippen was used more as a decoy and inbounded the ball. (like to inbound the ball and than get it right back though he wasn't going to in this case obviously) Pippen obviously felt slighted in what he felt should be his chance to win the game for the team as he was the best player. People need to get over that anyway. One moment of selfishness in a player that was probably one of the most unselfish players ever and people can't seem to get over the one time he he made a bad judgement call and let his ego get the best of him.

[97 bulls]

2 questions I want to ask:

1. Since when did scoring get underrated? To the point that when you praise an elite scorer the response is "all you value is scoring"? Nevermind the fact that that isn't all I value, but the strong responses like that imply scoring isn't a huge part of the game.
I don't think there is anyone saying scoring isn't a large part of the game. Its just not the only part of the game. And to be honest, whenever comparisons come up, its almost always centered around who was better offensively.

2. Since when do we assume that the only thing all great scorers do is score? Especially the likes of one of the greatest all-around players ever, Michael Jordan? It seems like almost like a bad thing or at least not of any importance to some of you when a person averages 30 ppg because of your automatic perception of it.
Again, who's saying this? Especially not in jordans case. But I do feel you and others short change pippens role on those championship teams.

Its almost like some of you try to diminish scoring cause you think it makes you look smarter or just to diminish or prop up certain players.
I don't think its a matter of trying to diminish offense. But look at the course of history. We should applaude winning. Not offense. Wilt didn't win until he changed his role and concentrated on defense and allowed the offense to be more of a team effort. Russell wasn't a big time scorer.

The best scorer of the 70s was jabaar. How much did he win? And he had great teams.


I always think of what happens when a big time scorer has to focus more on the defensive side of the ball. Their offense always suffers. Remember kobe vs the nuggets? When he defended anthony. I think he scored 15 pts. Or lebron james last year vs dallas. Or wade in the ecf? When he had to defend rose, his offense went to hell.

People don't really understand the toll it takes to have to play defense at a high level.

What's more, in 95 pippen had the bulls on pace to win 44 games. Go back and compare
What kobe, barkley, wade, had on their mid 40 in teams and tell me who was more impressive. Even jordans bulls in 98.

A few months ago, a poster made a thread on the outcome of great defenses vs great offenses. The defense won more often than not.

And its not just defense. Players can be effective in different ways. Just because your a great scorer, does not mean your a great winner.

[inclinerator]

http://i41.tinypic.com/n6syts.png

[32Dayz]

inappropriate... my eyes.... :(

[97 bulls]

The difference wasn't the same though. Maybe in a playoff series here and there, but not during the span of their careers together or in any large sample size.
Really? Id say pippen had a did a great job on some huge defensive assignments.

His role in defending magic johnson in game 2 after jordan got into foul trouble. That was big cuz he literraly had johnson flustered. Eeven if you replaace pippen with a better scorer, I'm not sure the bulls win cuz now you're asking this guy to out offense magic johnson.

How bout 92 game 6? When jordan jus didn't have it and pippen took on drexler in the 4th quarter and forced him into 3 TOs and led the bulls back into the game.

How bout in 93 when the bulls played the hawks and pippen shut down dominique wilkins?

How bout what pippen did to the pacers in 98? He cut of the head of that offense in mark jackson.

Or when he led the bulls over utah in the biggest blowout in nab finals history?

These games were against hall of fame caliber players. And if translated, would amount to what would be considered 50 pts games.

And to be honest, I can't really think of a time that jordan had to step in for prime pippen defensively cuz he wasn't getting the job done. Pippen on the other hand did that for jordan as well as a few other bulls players. This is why I say the value of defense is minimalized.

[guy]

I don't think there is anyone saying scoring isn't a large part of the game. Its just not the only part of the game. And to be honest, whenever comparisons come up, its almost always centered around who was better offensively.

To some people. But to another group of people it seems they think a guy who's an elite scorer and that is by far his greatest strength is automatically worse or less important then someone who isn't.




Again, who's saying this? Especially not in jordans case. But I do feel you and others short change pippens role on those championship teams.

The way some people describe the 90s Bulls, younger people that never watched them might think all Jordan did was score and Pippen did everything else. They make it sound like Jordan was just a much better Allen Iverson/Gilbert Arenas/Carmelo Anthony type while Pippen was KG/Steve Nash/Shane Battier rolled into 1.




I don't think its a matter of trying to diminish offense. But look at the course of history. We should applaude winning. Not offense. Wilt didn't win until he changed his role and concentrated on defense and allowed the offense to be more of a team effort. Russell wasn't a big time scorer.

The best scorer of the 70s was jabaar. How much did he win? And he had great teams.

I always think of what happens when a big time scorer has to focus more on the defensive side of the ball. Their offense always suffers. Remember kobe vs the nuggets? When he defended anthony. I think he scored 15 pts. Or lebron james last year vs dallas. Or wade in the ecf? When he had to defend rose, his offense went to hell.

People don't really understand the toll it takes to have to play defense at a high level.

What's more, in 95 pippen had the bulls on pace to win 44 games. Go back and compare
What kobe, barkley, wade, had on their mid 40 in teams and tell me who was more impressive. Even jordans bulls in 98.

A few months ago, a poster made a thread on the outcome of great defenses vs great offenses. The defense won more often than not.

And its not just defense. Players can be effective in different ways. Just because your a great scorer, does not mean your a great winner.


Winning comes from BALANCE. Neither all offense teams and all defense teams win shit. Every great championship team that is lauded for their defense also had great scoring weapons, including a team like the 04 Pistons.

The reason why great individual offense players get more credit then great individual defense players is because they can have more impact on a game because defense is way more dependent on teammates. Players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Kobe, AI, Melo, Lebron have had way more games where they won singlehandledly carrying there offense then players like Pippen have won singlehandedly carrying a defense. And thats not a knock on Pippen. You can say the same thing about the defense of Jordan, Kobe, etc. Its why you can argue players that were brilliant offensively and arguably horrible defensively like someone like Magic is better then all-around players that played both sides of the ball like KG or Pippen.



Really? Id say pippen had a did a great job on some huge defensive assignments.

I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. The difference between Jordan and Pippen as a scorer is much greater then Pippen and Jordan as defenders. Hell, Jordan was very arguably a better defender in the first 3-peat. I mean seriously both Jordan and Pippen are arguably the two top perimeter defenders ever. On the other hand, Jordan is arguably the greatest scorer ever while Pippen isn't even close. Jordan's advantages far outweigh Pippen's advantages, and that led to him having a larger contribution.





How bout 92 game 6? When jordan jus didn't have it and pippen took on drexler in the 4th quarter and forced him into 3 TOs and led the bulls back into the game.

These games were against hall of fame caliber players. And if translated, would amount to what would be considered 50 pts games.

.

Good lord, you're reaching a new level of ridiculousness. So 3 TOs = 50 pts ? You know what the defensive equilavent of a 50 point scoring game is? If 1 individual player actually stopped 50 points in scoring opportunities from happening. Thats obviously hard as shit to quantify, but its pretty clear that thats incredibly unlikely. And none of your examples show that. This is why individual defense is not as impactful as individual offense like I said.

[97 bulls]

To some people. But to another group of people it seems they think a guy who's an elite scorer and that is by far his greatest strength is automatically worse or less important then someone who isn't.



The way some people describe the 90s Bulls, younger people that never watched them might think all Jordan did was score and Pippen did everything else. They make it sound like Jordan was just a much better Allen Iverson/Gilbert Arenas/Carmelo Anthony type while Pippen was KG/Steve Nash/Shane Battier rolled into 1.



Winning comes from BALANCE. Neither all offense teams and all defense teams win shit. Every great championship team that is lauded for their defense also had great scoring weapons, including a team like the 04 Pistons.

The reason why great individual offense players get more credit then great individual defense players is because they can have more impact on a game because defense is way more dependent on teammates. Players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Kobe, AI, Melo, Lebron have had way more games where they won singlehandledly carrying there offense then players like Pippen have won singlehandedly carrying a defense. And thats not a knock on Pippen. You can say the same thing about the defense of Jordan, Kobe, etc. Its why you can argue players that were brilliant offensively and arguably horrible defensively like someone like Magic is better then all-around players that played both sides of the ball like KG or Pippen.
This is where we disagree. While its true that defense is a team effort, so is offense. Case and point derrick rose. He's probably one of the most dynamic one on one scorers in the game. And will only get better. But as was seen in the ecf, if the opposition is keying in on him, the others players must step up. Without sufficient offensive support, a players impact no matter how great he is, will just amount to nothing more than a great statistical night. The funny thing is, your theory has been tested time after time. From wilt, to jordan. If you don't have competent offensive players to take pressure off each other, then you don't win. This is a tried and true formula for both offense and defense. If a center, no matter how great he is on defense, is always in foul trouble cuz the guys on the perimeter can't stay in front of their man, then his impact is gonnaa be minimal over the course of the season.



I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. The difference between Jordan and Pippen as a scorer is much greater then Pippen and Jordan as defenders. Hell, Jordan was very arguably a better defender in the first 3-peat. I mean seriously both Jordan and Pippen are arguably the two top perimeter defenders ever. On the other hand, Jordan is arguably the greatest scorer ever while Pippen isn't even close. Jordan's advantages far outweigh Pippen's advantages, and that led to him having a larger contribution.
But yet when the twon were put in similar situations, jordan in 98 without pippen and pippen in 94 without jordan, pippen faired better. Granted jordan was in the twilight of his career, but he was still playing at a high level. And take into consideration jordan had the better team.


Good lord, you're reaching a new level of ridiculousness. So 3 TOs = 50 pts ? You know what the defensive equilavent of a 50 point scoring game is? If 1 individual player actually stopped 50 points in scoring opportunities from happening. Thats obviously hard as shit to quantify, but its pretty clear that thats incredibly unlikely. And none of your examples show that. This is why individual defense is not as impactful as individual offense like I said.
Don't be so naive. You know I'm not implying that 3 TOs is tantamount to a 50 pt game. But it is similar to a player having a bad shooting night through 3 quarters, let say they're shooting 8 of 25. For 23 pts (factoring in a few threes and FTs). Then goes 6-6 in the 4th including some three and FTs. And finishes with 50. And let's be honest, that 4th quarter is all that will be talked about.

I'm also sick of hearing about individual offense and defense. Basketball is a team sport. And a great team is put together based on the players collective strengths. And how they compliment each other. Not one on one. That why coopers role was so big on defense, or paxson on offense. They both took a lot of pressure off of magic and jordan.

No player has ever won a championship by themselves offensively or defensively. So the individual defense/offense is nonsense. And thus really has no place in this conversation.

[Dragonyeuw]

But yet when the twon were put in similar situations, jordan in 98 without pippen and pippen in 94 without jordan, pippen faired better. Granted jordan was in the twilight of his career, but he was still playing at a high level. And take into consideration jordan had the better team

This raises an interesting 'what if' scenario: put 98 Jordan on the 94 Bulls( No Pippen) for a full season, and put 94 Pippen on the 98 Bulls, no Jordan for the 1st 35 games. Which team fares better? Which is not to say, 'who's the better player' individually, let me make that clear as things tend to be taken way out of context on this forum. Do the 98 bulls, with 94 Pippen and no Jordan, do better or worse than 24-11? What does 98 Jordan lead the 94 Bulls to, better or worse than a 55-27 record and conference semi-finals?

[Smoke117]

This raises an interesting 'what if' scenario: put 98 Jordan on the 94 Bulls( No Pippen) for a full season, and put 94 Pippen on the 98 Bulls, no Jordan for the 1st 35 games. Which team fares better? Which is not to say, 'who's the better player' individually, let me make that clear as things tend to be taken way out of context on this forum. Do the 98 bulls, with 94 Pippen and no Jordan, do better or worse than 24-11? What does 98 Jordan lead the 94 Bulls to, better or worse than a 55-27 record and conference semi-finals?

It should also be noted that Jordan, Pippen, and Grant played 80, 81, and 77 games in the 1993 season though Pippen did play through most of that 93 season on a severely sprained ankle. Pippen only played 72 games in 94 which the team went 4-6 and Grant only played 70 games in 94. I don't know the record there, but they were the obvious two best players, so basically the 94 Bulls probably would have had a BETTER record than the 93 Bulls with Jordan if Pippen had played 81 games like he did in 93 and Grant had played 77. Conversations would probably be a lot more interesting if in fact the Bulls ended up with a better record without Jordan there and frankly if not for Pippen missing 9 more games than he did in 93 they probably would have in fact had a better record. They only would have had to win three more, so I don't see that being much of a hurdle.

[barnett114]

That bitch Jacks3 went through his 34th account defending Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is regarded as the most clutch offensive player. But by the same token, if I needed a key stop at the end of a game, I'm picking pippen. And I'm not saying jordan couldn't or wasn't a great defender. It was a luxery both players provided for the each other. Jordan did the scoring (not saying he didn't defend) and pippen handled the larger defensive role. Along with scoring.

Thats funny, because most coaches, players, and observers would pick MJ for a stop at the end of a game over Pippen. Jordan at his peak was a better individual defender than Pippen. Period.

[OldSchoolBBall]

These Pippen fanatics are a JOKE. :oldlol: :roll:

[97 bulls]

Thats funny, because most coaches, players, and observers would pick MJ for a stop at the end of a game over Pippen. Jordan at his peak was a better individual defender than Pippen. Period.
Jordan at his peak and pippen at his? Wow that's tough. Even as man on man defenders. cuz pippen defended more positions.

Id still go with pippen. And I believe your referring to a survey that was done in the late 80s. If so that's not really a fair comparison. Since pippen was too green

[Micku]

The way some people describe the 90s Bulls, younger people that never watched them might think all Jordan did was score and Pippen did everything else. They make it sound like Jordan was just a much better Allen Iverson/Gilbert Arenas/Carmelo Anthony type while Pippen was KG/Steve Nash/Shane Battier rolled into 1.



Jordan in the early 90s basically did everything. He was a playmaker (he might've been the best passer of the team), he and Pippen were the Bulls best defenders (Jordan might've been a bit better in the early 90s) and obviously Jordan scored for the team. Jordan was almost the jack of all trades, but a better scorer than anybody else and more aggressive.

When Pippen came on his own, especially around 91 or 92 when he entered his prime I guess, it started to change and it gave some slack off of him.

In the 2nd peat of the Bulls, Pippen was the better playmaker and defender. Jordan wasn't the playmaker or defender like he was before, but still very good.

But yeah, Jordan in the early 90s was really really good at almost everything.

[Micku]

And here in lies your pov. Just come out and say scoring and clutch offense are the only thing that matters to you.

Pippen defensive versitlity and ability to run the offense as well as rebound and score puts his value pretty high. And he was every bit as clutch defensively as jordan was offensively.

Jordan was clutch defensively too. Jordan and Pippen might've been at equal sharing with the defense in the early 90s. Statistically and otherwise. In the 2nd peat it was a bit different. Jordan was very good defensively, but I would say Pippen was better.

[Legends66NBA7]

That bitch Jacks3 went through his 34th account defending Kobe.

Dude needs to get of the computer and go outside.

Which account was he this time ? :ohwell:

This is getting quiet comical and sad the more he goes back and forth on Real GM. Doesn't he get memo that they don't take him seriously...

[97 bulls]

Jordan in the early 90s basically did everything. He was a playmaker (he might've been the best passer of the team), he and Pippen were the Bulls best defenders (Jordan might've been a bit better in the early 90s) and obviously Jordan scored for the team. Jordan was almost the jack of all trades, but a better scorer than anybody else and more aggressive.

When Pippen came on his own, especially around 91 or 92 when he entered his prime I guess, it started to change and it gave some slack off of him.

In the 2nd peat of the Bulls, Pippen was the better playmaker and defender. Jordan wasn't the playmaker or defender like he was before, but still very good.

But yeah, Jordan in the early 90s was really really good at almost everything.
Jordan was great at everything. Even at 34/35. What happened was jordan saw pippen mature in 94 and 95 and thus realized he didn't have to shoulder the burden alone anymore.

But some people are mistaking this as an implication that pippen was as good as jordan. Jordan was the greatest ever.

[Micku]

Jordan was great at everything. Even at 34/35. What happened was jordan saw pippen mature in 94 and 95 and thus realized he didn't have to shoulder the burden alone anymore.

But some people are mistaking this as an implication that pippen was as good as jordan. Jordan was the greatest ever.

I agree! Well said.

I just think that Jordan was better in the early 90s.

[barnett114]

Dude needs to get of the computer and go outside.

Which account was he this time ? :ohwell:

This is getting quiet comical and sad the more he goes back and forth on Real GM. Doesn't he get memo that they don't take him seriously...

He was ewiz

[NugzHeat3]

Jordan is regarded as the most clutch offensive player. But by the same token, if I needed a key stop at the end of a game, I'm picking pippen. And I'm not saying jordan couldn't or wasn't a great defender. It was a luxery both players provided for the each other. Jordan did the scoring (not saying he didn't defend) and pippen handled the larger defensive role. Along with scoring.
Maybe for the second three-peat and even that's arguable though Pippen is clearly a better overall defender from 1996-1998. But in the first, it was Jordan all the way and to say otherwise is a bit of revisionism.

Even as late as 1998, Jordan had times where he actually switched on to Pippen's man in crunch time and shut him down for a possession or two. There's a game they played @ Chicago against Detroit where he switches on to Hill, forces him to a tough, off balance shot to force OT where they pull it out. Pippen was in foul trouble so they didn't risk having him out there. Jordan was in foul trouble too IIRC, they both were since Stackhouse and Hill were having good games.

But the first three peat, its Jordan all the way and most people around the league will tell you the same.


Who is the best perimeter defender?

Joe Dumars (Detroit), 5 votes

Dennis Rodman (Detroit), 5 votes

Michael Jordan (Chicago), 3 votes

Michael Cooper (Lakers), 4 votes

Derek Harper (Dallas), 3 votes

Fat Lever (Denver), 1 vote

Alvin Robertson (Milwaukee), 1 vote


^22 GM poll from April 1990. http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1990_700301


Jordan, who led the league in steals (2.83 a game) for the third time in his career, received more votes than anyone, with 51 out of a possible 52 points from the NBA coaches polled and was the only player named on all 26 ballots.
^It doesn't mean he was the best defensive player in the league. Centers obviously had it harder since there were a bunch of great defensive centers at the time and there's only two spots as opposed to four. They naturally impact the game more, anyway but as for perimeter players, I'd say he has as good of a case as anybody and this is from 1993. Only guy to be named on all ballots.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-05-12/sports/9305120183_1_horace-grant-scottie-and-michael-dennis-rodman

This is also just focusing on overall defense. When it comes to crunch time, or a one stop situation like how you said in your post, players went with Jordan.


''I thought Nick did as well as he possibly could against Michael,'' Magic coach Matt Guokas said. ''He had a strong game. But Michael is the best defensive player in the league when it comes to crunch time.''
1991. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-01-17/sports/9101170637_1_michael-jordan-anderson-jordan-hit


"There is nothing Michael can't do," said Doug Collins, who coached the Bulls for three seasons before his sudden dismissal last summer. Collins is now traveling the NBA as a color analyst for TNT cable network.

"I love Dennis Rodman (of Detroit), but Michael plays tougher defense than Dennis. If you polled the NBA guards and asked them to pick the one man they'd least like to have guard them in the last 24 seconds of a game, I'll bet most of them would pick Michael.

"And if you asked them to pick the one player they would least like to defend in the last 24 seconds, it would be Michael by a landslide.
April 1990.http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1990_699849/increase-in-criticism-irks-jordan.html

Sounds a little biased considering he coached him? Well, no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6r2v_lRIeU
^0:23 mark. Every single player from the players association picks Jordan as the guy they'd like defending in a last possession/one stop kind of situation. 1991.


[QUOTE]HOUSTON

[97 bulls]

Maybe for the second three-peat and even that's arguable though Pippen is clearly a better overall defender from 1996-1998. But in the first, it was Jordan all the way and to say otherwise is a bit of revisionism.

Even as late as 1998, Jordan had times where he actually switched on to Pippen's man in crunch time and shut him down for a possession or two. There's a game they played @ Chicago against Detroit where he switches on to Hill, forces him to a tough, off balance shot to force OT where they pull it out. Pippen was in foul trouble so they didn't risk having him out there. Jordan was in foul trouble too IIRC, they both were since Stackhouse and Hill were having good games.

But the first three peat, its Jordan all the way and most people around the league will tell you the same.



^22 GM poll from April 1990. http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1990_700301


^It doesn't mean he was the best defensive player in the league. Centers obviously had it harder since there were a bunch of great defensive centers at the time and there's only two spots as opposed to four. They naturally impact the game more, anyway but as for perimeter players, I'd say he has as good of a case as anybody and this is from 1993. Only guy to be named on all ballots.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-05-12/sports/9305120183_1_horace-grant-scottie-and-michael-dennis-rodman

This is also just focusing on overall defense. When it comes to crunch time, or a one stop situation like how you said in your post, players went with Jordan.


1991. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-01-17/sports/9101170637_1_michael-jordan-anderson-jordan-hit


April 1990.http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1990_699849/increase-in-criticism-irks-jordan.html

Sounds a little biased considering he coached him? Well, no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6r2v_lRIeU
^0:23 mark. Every single player from the players association picks Jordan as the guy they'd like defending in a last possession/one stop kind of situation. 1991.



http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-02-12/sports/8903050206_1_bulls-craig-hodges-bulls-offense-lenny-wilkens

This is something you can see in the games too. Not like these guys are all basing it on reputation.

I saw it in a Bulls vs Pistons game yesterday and Jordan actually switched on to Isiah on the last play of OT since he was torching Armstrong. Dumars ended up hitting the shot after Pippen fell trying to drawing an offensive foul IIRC.
I remember jordan being regarded as the best defender in the late 80s and early 90s. And pippen assuming it from the mid 90s on to the late 90s. And don't get me wrong, jordan was an amazing defender. I just think his role changed as pippen mature, not cuz he was no longer capable, but cuz he no longer had to. That's why the bulls were as dominant as they were in the mid to late 90s.

[97 bulls]

I agree! Well said.

I just think that Jordan was better in the early 90s.
In my opinion, he was a better athlete iin the early 90s. But he was a better basketball player during the second threepeat.

[tomtucker]

Yo, Fukk Michael Jordon.......!

[Da_Realist]

Maybe for the second three-peat and even that's arguable though Pippen is clearly a better overall defender from 1996-1998. But in the first, it was Jordan all the way and to say otherwise is a bit of revisionism.

Even as late as 1998, Jordan had times where he actually switched on to Pippen's man in crunch time and shut him down for a possession or two. There's a game they played @ Chicago against Detroit where he switches on to Hill, forces him to a tough, off balance shot to force OT where they pull it out. Pippen was in foul trouble so they didn't risk having him out there. Jordan was in foul trouble too IIRC, they both were since Stackhouse and Hill were having good games.

But the first three peat, its Jordan all the way and most people around the league will tell you the same.



^22 GM poll from April 1990. http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1990_700301


^It doesn't mean he was the best defensive player in the league. Centers obviously had it harder since there were a bunch of great defensive centers at the time and there's only two spots as opposed to four. They naturally impact the game more, anyway but as for perimeter players, I'd say he has as good of a case as anybody and this is from 1993. Only guy to be named on all ballots.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-05-12/sports/9305120183_1_horace-grant-scottie-and-michael-dennis-rodman

This is also just focusing on overall defense. When it comes to crunch time, or a one stop situation like how you said in your post, players went with Jordan.


1991. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-01-17/sports/9101170637_1_michael-jordan-anderson-jordan-hit


April 1990.http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1990_699849/increase-in-criticism-irks-jordan.html

Sounds a little biased considering he coached him? Well, no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6r2v_lRIeU
^0:23 mark. Every single player from the players association picks Jordan as the guy they'd like defending in a last possession/one stop kind of situation. 1991.



http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-02-12/sports/8903050206_1_bulls-craig-hodges-bulls-offense-lenny-wilkens

This is something you can see in the games too. Not like these guys are all basing it on reputation.

I saw it in a Bulls vs Pistons game yesterday and Jordan actually switched on to Isiah on the last play of OT since he was torching Armstrong. Dumars ended up hitting the shot after Pippen fell trying to drawing an offensive foul IIRC.

Great post. Tons of research there. Thanks for the links!

[Smoke117]

[AlphaWolf24]

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2124000/AlphaWolf-2124805_300_300.jpghttp://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2124000/AlphaWolf-2124805_300_300.jpghttp://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2124000/AlphaWolf-2124805_300_300.jpg

[32Dayz]

Kobe without Shaq/Gasol = Ringless inferior version of TMac.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Guys I think we've already established that AlphaWolf and Jacks are Jordan fans making fun of Kobe stans.

[32Dayz]

AlphaWolf maybe.. but I can feel the deep love Jacks has for Kobe.

[RRR3]

Guys I think we've already established that AlphaWolf and Jacks are Jordan fans making fun of Kobe stans.
You really think that they would spend so much time and effort defending and propping up Kobe just for shits and giggles? :confusedshrug:

[DJ Leon Smith]

AlphaWolf maybe.. but I can feel the deep love Jacks has for Kobe.

Nope even got Jeff to check IPs, they're Jordan stans (they have multiple accounts) who are pretending to be Kobe fans.

[RRR3]

Nope even got Jeff to check IPs, they're Jordan stans (they have multiple accounts) who are pretending to be Kobe fans.
Do you have a link to that or some sort of proof? Sorry, but I'll believe it when I see it lol.

[Legends66NBA7]

Nope even got Jeff to check IPs, they're Jordan stans (they have multiple accounts) who are pretending to be Kobe fans.

Well if you say so. I do agree with RRR3, but if that's the case, I am glad I never took them seriously to start with.

[Nevaeh]

Well if you say so. I do agree with RRR3, but if that's the case, I am glad I never took them seriously to start with.

Well, that actually makes sense when you think about it. There's no way in hell a dude who's pushing 40, like AlphaWolf has claimed to be, actually believes Kobe is better than Jordan, having watched them both play their entire careers.

[Smoke117]

Well, that actually makes sense when you think about it. There's no way in hell a dude who's pushing 40, like AlphaWolf has claimed to be, actually believes Kobe is better than Jordan, having watched them both play their entire careers.

If that guy AlphaWolf is pushing 40 than he must have done a lot of drugs because he is a complete idiot or just another example of the failure of the public school system.

[Legends66NBA7]

Well, that actually makes sense when you think about it. There's no way in hell a dude who's pushing 40, like AlphaWolf has claimed to be, actually believes Kobe is better than Jordan, having watched them both play their entire careers.

Pretty much what Smoke said:

http://scs.viceland.com/int/v12n4/htdocs/cut/1.jpg

http://www.bridgat.com/files/Available_MdmaCocaineWeedHeroin_and_Oxycontin.jpeg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Ecstacy_monogram.jpg

It's either all that he's on or he's the biggest homer we ever seen or just a fake. Can't go wrong with either statement really...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nope even got Jeff to check IPs, they're Jordan stans (they have multiple accounts) who are pretending to be Kobe fans.

Yeah, no...I call bullshit. Alphawolf has his own Youtube channel ('thebruceblitzchennel'--a knock off of Bruce blitz), with videos of his collection of shrines dedicated to his man crush, Kobe.

[NugzHeat3]

Well, that actually makes sense when you think about it. There's no way in hell a dude who's pushing 40, like AlphaWolf has claimed to be, actually believes Kobe is better than Jordan, having watched them both play their entire careers.
Mark Jackson.

[AlphaWolf24]

Nope even got Jeff to check IPs, they're Jordan stans (they have multiple accounts) who are pretending to be Kobe fans.


:roll: @ this fool...




I Love MJ just like all basketball fans....it's his stupid stans that make me go Hmmmm...



and yes Kobe>MJ




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