ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.hardcourtmayhem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/john-havlicek.jpg


John Havlicek

13 time NBA all star
8 time NBA champion
1974 finals MVP(award did not exist for 5 of his rings)
11 time all NBA(4 first 6 second)
8 time all defensive team(5 first 3 second)
Top 5 in MVP voting in two seasons
Top 5 in assists twice
Top 5 in ppg twice
Career 20/5/6 player with single season highs of 29/9/8

As for the quote...I posted for in his last vote so ill repost those. We all know who we are dealing with when we get this high anyway...



Two headlines you'll probably never read: "Pope Elopes" or "Hawlicek Chokes."



Quote: Jerry West told Sports Illustrated, "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody-teammates, fans, the press." Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."


Quote: "He epitomizes everything good," said Celtics general manager Red Auerbach in The New York Times. "If I had a son like John I'd be the happiest man in the world."



Quote: "On stamina alone, he'd be among the top players who ever played the game," longtime New York Knicks coach Red Holzman once said of John "Hondo" Havlicek. "It would've been fair to those who had to play him or those who had to coach against him if he had been blessed only with his inhuman endurance. God had to compound it by making him a good scorer, smart ballhandler and intelligent defensive player with quickness of mind, hands and feet."




http://www.verticaljumping.com/images/Lebron_James.jpg


7 time all star
2 time NBA MVP
7 time all NBA(5 first team)
3 time all defensive first team
Top 5 in MVP voting 6 years
Led NBA in scoring in 2008
Top 3 in scoring in 6 seasons
Career 28/7/7 player with season highs of 31/9/8


I think with Lebron the quote really isnt needed. We all know the story. There are legends who say hes as good as Jordan there are people who claim he isnt even a great player because of where he chose to play basketball. We have all heard all the discussion. Nothing really needs to be added by me on that one.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Havlicek. James' may exceed him in individual achievements one day but he hasn't yet and Hondo never failed the Celtics the way James just did in a Finals series.

[DMAVS41]

Easily Hondo at this point. Its laughable to rank Lebron over Dirk all time as well.

[Kblaze8855]

As is often the case it comes down to what you are looking for..."greater" or "better'.

Lebron has at 26...just listing awards and all nba teams and numbers and all...had a prety similar career to Barkley(extra MVP...same all nba first teams...extra finals...less all star games due to less seasons of course).

If we are talking about best...there is a better case to put up up several spots than there is to have him down this far.

If we are talking about greatness....the loose definition could easily be used to justify ranking Hondo higher.

[Rnbizzle]

Lebron James.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lebron

Some of his playoff performances have left me puzzled, but the reason they're talked about so much is because he's the type of player who rarely comes along. Should've won last year, but he's elevated some of those Cleveland teams to records they had absolutely no business approaching. He's become the most complete player in the game the last 3 years or so due to being one of the game's best scorers and passers while really stepping up his defense. His shooting hasn't been an issue to me since '08 either.

He's been arguably the best player in the game for the past 3 seasons, how many players can you say that about? List all of them and I'd be surprised if any aren't in the top 10-20 on most lists with the exception of some pre-shot clock era guys. To me, he was the clear best player in '09 and '10, and depending on how heavily I weigh one series, he'd be in 2011 as well.

He's really reached a level as a basketball player that extremely few have reached, and for his flaws, I can't rank him below a certain level. Those flaws come into play more for me when comparing players of comparable talent level. As great as Havlicek was(and I do think he was the best player on at least the '74 championship team as well as maybe the last championship or 2 he won with Russell), I don't think he was the player that Lebron is.

There's a reason why he's become one of the most significant figures in basketball history.

[Fatal9]

:facepalm

[9erEmpire]

I am going to have go with Hondo.

Hondo succeeded every way where Lebron hasn't done enough in his career.

[Carbine]

Havlichek.

Bron has failed too many times in his career in big spots. Even though he's a better player than Havlichek, he's not greater at this point.

[9erEmpire]

Also,

Hondo is considered one of the greatest players of all time in any position and suddenly people think Lebron is better than Hondo, when talking about position.

:facepalm

[Rowe]

LeBron James.

How many Hall of Famers did Hondo play with?

Laughable to place Hondo's team accomplishments on a dominant Celtics team pre-merger as what makes him a greater player than LeBron.

[9erEmpire]

LeBron James.

How many Hall of Famers did Hondo play with?

Laughable to place Hondo's team accomplishments on a dominant Celtics team pre-merger as what makes him a greater player than LeBron.

read post #10

:facepalm

[pegasus]

Definitely Hondo. Some of you guys are crazy.

[Kblaze8855]

I think I view failure differently than many. I say people fail with teams that should win. So id say he failed last year but never before that. When a team wins 60+ for no reason but you being there...they arent supposed to win it all. They were like the secodn worst team in the NBA last year before Andy and Mo went down. People talk up missing Big Z when they were on a 60+ win pace inthe month or so he was gone after being traded to the Wizards. They were no worse without Shaq either. There was exactly one impact player on that team and he is the sole reason worth discussion that they went from 60+ wins to worst in the NBA.

I wouldnt say Dirk would be a failure for losing last year. Or the year before that. Not teams that just...should win.

I find it funny that Reggie Miller didnt win...but they never really...should have won. Karl Malone....I never thought he would win to begin with. Sure as hell not in the finals. What is funny to me is the way he managed to fail.

Id say Lebron never lost to a team that his team flat out should have handled till the Mavs. The Celtics were just better than the cavs. Dwight no doubt had more help than Lebron while Lebron was playing well enough to have that post season thrown in with Jordans best without looking out of place.

That said...I wouldnt be upset at Hondo winning. Hondo might win 3 in a row.

[MiseryCityTexas]

overall talent = lebron

overall basketball achievements = hondo

[9erEmpire]

Quote: Jerry West told Sports Illustrated, "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody-teammates, fans, the press." Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."


Quote: "He epitomizes everything good," said Celtics general manager Red Auerbach in The New York Times. "If I had a son like John I'd be the happiest man in the world."



Quote: "On stamina alone, he'd be among the top players who ever played the game," longtime New York Knicks coach Red Holzman once said of John "Hondo" Havlicek. "It would've been fair to those who had to play him or those who had to coach against him if he had been blessed only with his inhuman endurance. God had to compound it by making him a good scorer, smart ballhandler and intelligent defensive player with quickness of mind, hands and feet."



To be one of the best in your sport, you have to be a good statesman or get praised from your peers like MJ, Kobe, Magic and others.

This alone, says Hondo over Lebron.

Not many players are kissing Lebron's @ss.

[Carbine]

I think I view failure differently than many. I say people fail with teams that should win. So id say he failed last year but never before that. When a team wins 60+ for no reason but you being there...they arent supposed to win it all. They were like the secodn worst team in the NBA last year before Andy and Mo went down. People talk up missing Big Z when they were on a 60+ win pace inthe month or so he was gone after being traded to the Wizards. They were no worse without Shaq either. There was exactly one impact player on that team and he is the sole reason worth discussion that they went from 60+ wins to worst in the NBA.

I wouldnt say Dirk would be a failure for losing last year. Or the year before that. Not teams that just...should win.

I find it funny that Reggie Miller didnt win...but they never really...should have won. Karl Malone....I never thought he would win to begin with. Sure as hell not in the finals. What is funny to me is the way he managed to fail.

Id say Lebron never lost to a team that his team flat out should have handled till the Mavs. The Celtics were just better than the cavs. Dwight no doubt had more help than Lebron while Lebron was playing well enough to have that post season thrown in with Jordans best without looking out of place.

That said...I wouldnt be upset at Hondo winning. Hondo might win 3 in a row.

I agree that not winning a title on the Cavs shouldn't be held against him really, but what you can't excuse is the fact he mailed it in against Boston, looked dis-interested in the Magic series elimination game, played pretty bad in the finals against the Spurs and everyone knows what happened in the finals this year. When you're the "chosen one," and then play like that in what is the biggest moments of the season....that's failing.

One thing to not be expected to win a title because of your supporting cast, it's another to play well below expectations and/or mail it in.

[Papaya Petee]

This LeBron James hatred is getting way out of hand.


LeBron and it's not even close.

[blablabla]

Lebron

[Kblaze8855]

Magic and many others have been calling Lebron the best in the NBA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXDR-P9uICQ

The decision to stop after the decision was an emotional one not a basketball playing ability one. He got hated on all year and after the finals of course it got worse. But a lot of people knew it wasnt really a question who the best player in the NBA was suddenly thought otherwise after an interview.

Emotion got involved and changed a lot of opinions.

[1987_Lakers]

LOL, Havlicek isn't even on the same level as LeBron as a player. Hondo might have more accomplishments, but LeBron is simply the better player.

[DMAVS41]

I think I view failure differently than many. I say people fail with teams that should win. So id say he failed last year but never before that. When a team wins 60+ for no reason but you being there...they arent supposed to win it all. They were like the secodn worst team in the NBA last year before Andy and Mo went down. People talk up missing Big Z when they were on a 60+ win pace inthe month or so he was gone after being traded to the Wizards. They were no worse without Shaq either. There was exactly one impact player on that team and he is the sole reason worth discussion that they went from 60+ wins to worst in the NBA.

I wouldnt say Dirk would be a failure for losing last year. Or the year before that. Not teams that just...should win.

I find it funny that Reggie Miller didnt win...but they never really...should have won. Karl Malone....I never thought he would win to begin with. Sure as hell not in the finals. What is funny to me is the way he managed to fail.

Id say Lebron never lost to a team that his team flat out should have handled till the Mavs. The Celtics were just better than the cavs. Dwight no doubt had more help than Lebron while Lebron was playing well enough to have that post season thrown in with Jordans best without looking out of place.

That said...I wouldnt be upset at Hondo winning. Hondo might win 3 in a row.

Not sure why it can't just be about how these players play...

Should Lebron have beaten the Spurs in 07? No....but he should have played better.

I've never understood why people want to rank individual players so much on whether the team wins/loses and then throw out how an individual played.

Makes no sense to me.

The reason Lebron shouldn't be ranked over Hondo (and a bunch of others at this point) is because his play simply hasn't been good enough for his teams to win at times. Outside of 09, Lebron has had some form of a poor stretch in the playoffs.

07...awful in the finals
08...awful in the first few games of the Celtics series
10....who knows why, but just awful in the pivotal game 5
11....worst finals performance by a superstar that i've ever seen

Its one thing to lose...nothing wrong with that...its now and always has been a team game...but losing while playing like crap in pivotal moments and games? That just doesn't cut it. And Lebron has his fair share of those moments already....

And he doesn't have a ring yet. He doesn't have a run from start to finish yet. Until he gets that, especially playing on the most talented (or close to it) in the league, he just can't rank higher than a lot of guys all time.

[Rooster]

Lebron until the last quarter.

[RRR3]

LeBron James He is just on another tier in terms of how good of a player he is. I'm sorry, but Havlicek wasn't "leading" the Celtics to most of those rings anyways, Bill Russell was for the most part.

[Sarcastic]

LeBron James

[Kblaze8855]

I agree that not winning a title on the Cavs shouldn't be held against him really, but what you can't excuse is the fact he mailed it in against Boston, looked dis-interested in the Magic series elimination game, played pretty bad in the finals against the Spurs and everyone knows what happened in the finals this year.

Looked disinterested? cant speak on that. And the Celtic thing? Anothero ne. People are going t osee what they wish. People said the same of of Kobe v the Suns and Jordan vs the Pistons when he had what I think was his worst playoff game ever(at least pre rings). Im not in anyones head.

Far as the spurs....

He did the exact opposite as he did vs the Heat. Going down he decided to go down shooing. He shot like 30-31 tomes vs the spurs when they went out. Cant really question his attempt to get them in the game.


When you're the "chosen one," and then play like that in what is the biggest moments of the season....that's failing.

For the most part...I find such things to be matters of emotion.



One thing to not be expected to win a title because of your supporting cast, it's another to play well below expectations and/or mail it in.

All thats really expected of great player by history is Ws. He never had a team worth expecting them out of until now. So im not terribly concerned. Ive seen better players than Lebron lose with more talent than hes had plenty of times. On the Heat he should get it done. If not...hating is justified.

[Miller for 3]

Hondo. More reliable in the clutch and a better passer and defender. Lebron is better at his prime, but he is a ball stopper and can't play any role other than ball pounder. hondo could be your spark off the bench, lockdown defender, point guard, go to scorer, etc. Lebron has always made his teammates worse and can't do anything without the ball in his hands for 15+ seconds every possession.

[Rnbizzle]

Hondo. More reliable in the clutch and a better passer and defender. Lebron is better at his prime, but he is a ball stopper and can't play any role other than ball pounder. hondo could be your spark off the bench, lockdown defender, point guard, go to scorer, etc. Lebron has always made his teammates worse and can't do anything without the ball in his hands for 15+ seconds every possession.
:facepalm Some of you guys.. the hatred against Lebron is getting retarded..

[Kblaze8855]

Ive seen no evidence in the games and highlights that Hondo is a better passer and he averaged less assists than Lebron at their peak numbers despite playing more minutes in a faster league. not that assists=passing. But I would like to hear the evidence to suggest Hondo is a better passer that isnt just some claim about Lebron being an overrated passer. Id like to hear what anyone has to put Hondo over him as a passer...that is actually based on something they can show or tell me about Hondo.

[Miller for 3]

:facepalm Some of you guys.. the hatred against Lebron is getting retarded..

Name a teammate who got better playing with Lebron other than Mo for one fluke year? Larry Hughes was a dominant two way wing, plays with Lebron becomes a scrub. Shaq was an 18-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Jamison was a 20-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Bosh was a 24-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Anthony Parker was a two time MVP and go to cltuch scorer for the Raptors, joins Lebron, scrub. Ben Wallace, Wally S, Hickson, Snow, etc. Lebron turned them all into spot up shooters and basically ruined their careers. Hondo was better at filling in what you need, Lebron is better at taking away from everyone else

[Rowe]

Also,

Hondo is considered one of the greatest players of all time in any position and suddenly people think Lebron is better than Hondo, when talking about position.

:facepalm

Because he won 8 Championships. How many players have done that in any sport? But many people tend to overrate those great Celtics teams when they dominated the NBA pre-merger. I believe Hondo only won 1 NBA Title post-merger.

No doubt he is a legend and great player but if we're ranking players All-Time, I feel that LeBron is above Hondo. LeBron is often put in a league of All-Time great wing players such as Jordan, Magic, Bird, & Oscar. We spend so much time arguing about his "legacy" because we know that Championships will define how we rank him All-Time with those great wing players. Talent-wise he is in their same class already in his career at 26. That is why LeBron gets the edge IMO.

We dont bring up Hondo with that group because simply LeBron is a far superior talent and more dominant player than Hondo was. Hondo's legacy hindges solely off of his great play on a Celtics dynasty. That earns a lot of respect, but that isnt putting him past LeBron in my book.

LeBron IMO already is the 2nd best SF in NBA history behind only Bird as far as an individual career/individual peak is considered. But his legacy as far as "greatness" is concerned will always be up for debate until he wins Championships.

[Rowe]

Name a teammate who got better playing with Lebron other than Mo for one fluke year? Larry Hughes was a dominant two way wing, plays with Lebron becomes a scrub. Shaq was an 18-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Jamison was a 20-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Bosh was a 24-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Anthony Parker was a two time MVP and go to cltuch scorer for the Raptors, joins Lebron, scrub. Ben Wallace, Wally S, Hickson, Snow, etc. Lebron turned them all into spot up shooters and basically ruined their careers. Hondo was better at filling in what you need, Lebron is better at taking away from everyone else
:facepalm

The hatred/retarded arguments against LeBron have finally reached an entirely new level.

I could stand it for the last 5 months since the NBA Finals debacle, but now people need to speak up and let others know they're going too far and losing a grasp on reality.

[RRR3]

Name a teammate who got better playing with Lebron other than Mo for one fluke year? Larry Hughes was a dominant two way wing, plays with Lebron becomes a scrub. Shaq was an 18-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Jamison was a 20-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Bosh was a 24-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Anthony Parker was a two time MVP and go to cltuch scorer for the Raptors, joins Lebron, scrub. Ben Wallace, Wally S, Hickson, Snow, etc. Lebron turned them all into spot up shooters and basically ruined their careers. Hondo was better at filling in what you need, Lebron is better at taking away from everyone else

Larry Hughes a "dominant two-way wing".... :roll:
Shaq played 23 MPG with LBJ. :facepalm Per 36 guess what his averages were?....19 and 10. :roll:
Anthony Parker was MVP in ****ing Euroleague get out of here. :roll: He was even worse w/o LBJ last year
Hickson is trash in general and played 11 and 21 MPG in his two years with LBJ
Snow is trash in general and played with the Cavs at the end of his career
Ben Wallace was past his prime and he played 1 and a half seasons w/ LBJ anyways. And since when is Ben Wallace known for his "shooting"? I didn't know him becoming a "spot up shooter" was reducing his offensive role, it'd actually be improving it :roll:
Jamison played less Minutes on the Cavs, his production was virtually the same except he suddenly began to suck at Free throws.


Obvious agenda is obvious.

[greensborohill]

Hondo

[pegasus]

Larry Hughes a "dominant two-way wing".... :roll:
Shaq played 23 MPG with LBJ. :facepalm Per 36 guess what his averages were?....19 and 10. :roll:
Anthony Parker was MVP in ****ing Euroleague get out of here. :roll: He was even worse w/o LBJ last year
Hickson is trash in general and played 11 and 21 MPG in his two years with LBJ
Snow is trash in general and played with the Cavs at the end of his career
Ben Wallace was past his prime and he played 1 and a half seasons w/ LBJ anyways. And since when is Ben Wallace known for his "shooting"? I didn't know him becoming a "spot up shooter" was reducing his offensive role, it'd actually be improving it :roll:
Jamison played less Minutes on the Cavs, his production was virtually the same except he suddenly began to suck at Free throws.


Obvious agenda is obvious.

So you're actually saying that Lebron makes his teammates better?:lol

[RRR3]

So you're actually saying that Lebron makes his teammates better?:lol
That is exactly what my post said. :rolleyes: I was mostly pointing out the stupidity of his post, and it really depends on the teammate, but the fact that most of his teammates like him a lot should say something. Some work better with LBJ than others. As for Bosh, it's not LBJ so much as it is LBJ AND Wade (two guys who are used to handling the ball the most on the team and scoring 25+ PPG).

[Rnbizzle]

Larry Hughes a "dominant two-way wing".... :roll:
Shaq played 23 MPG with LBJ. :facepalm Per 36 guess what his averages were?....19 and 10. :roll:
Anthony Parker was MVP in ****ing Euroleague get out of here. :roll: He was even worse w/o LBJ last year
Hickson is trash in general and played 11 and 21 MPG in his two years with LBJ
Snow is trash in general and played with the Cavs at the end of his career
Ben Wallace was past his prime and he played 1 and a half seasons w/ LBJ anyways. And since when is Ben Wallace known for his "shooting"? I didn't know him becoming a "spot up shooter" was reducing his offensive role, it'd actually be improving it :roll:
Jamison played less Minutes on the Cavs, his production was virtually the same except he suddenly began to suck at Free throws.


Obvious agenda is obvious.
Repped.

[Dave3]

Larry Hughes a "dominant two-way wing".... :roll:
Shaq played 23 MPG with LBJ. :facepalm Per 36 guess what his averages were?....19 and 10. :roll:
Anthony Parker was MVP in ****ing Euroleague get out of here. :roll: He was even worse w/o LBJ last year
Hickson is trash in general and played 11 and 21 MPG in his two years with LBJ
Snow is trash in general and played with the Cavs at the end of his career
Ben Wallace was past his prime and he played 1 and a half seasons w/ LBJ anyways. And since when is Ben Wallace known for his "shooting"? I didn't know him becoming a "spot up shooter" was reducing his offensive role, it'd actually be improving it :roll:
Jamison played less Minutes on the Cavs, his production was virtually the same except he suddenly began to suck at Free throws.

Obvious agenda is obvious.
How sad is it that you just had to explain all that? You just had to point out that Parkers MVPs were Euroleague...that's ridiculous.

A small point to add, all those players' stats went down because when they came onto the Cavs they played smaller roles. When you go from being a second or third option to being a third or fourth, your stats are going to do down, what do you expect geniuses? What? Bosh was somehow supposed to average 24/10 on a team with 2 other 26 ppg scorers? A 1st option becoming a 3rd option should somehow retain his ppg? I've never seen such blind hate as I have this summer for someone. And it's for someone these guys have never even met. You know for a fact if they ever met him in person they'd turn into huge fans...so weird...

[PTB Fan]

Hondo. He had a better career, achieved more, was more consistent, had a better longevity and was a tad bit more reliable in the clutch.

[RRR3]

How sad is it that you just had to explain all that? You just had to point out that Parkers MVPs were Euroleague...that's ridiculous.

A small point to add, all those players' stats went down because when they came onto the Cavs they played smaller roles. When you go from being a second or third option to being a third or fourth, your stats are going to do down, what do you expect geniuses? What? Bosh was somehow supposed to average 24/10 on a team with 2 other 26 ppg scorers? A 1st option becoming a 3rd option should somehow retain his ppg? I've never seen such blind hate as I have this summer for someone. And it's for someone these guys have never even met. You know for a fact if they ever met him in person they'd turn into huge fans...so weird...

Agreed with most of your post. However, if some of these guys like Pegasus met LBJ in person, they'd probably try to attack him or something. :facepalm

[FF1]

:facepalm

[pegasus]

Agreed with most of your post. However, if some of these guys like Pegasus met LBJ in person, they'd probably try to attack him or something. :facepalm

No, I would challenge him to a 1-on-1.:pimp:

[creepingdeath]

Since the last voting thread contained so much fail, I vote for Hondo. I'd normally put Lebron in front of him, but to rank Lebron yet another place lower than Dirk would be an even greater fail. So Hondo it is.

[pegasus]

Since the last voting thread contained so much fail, I vote for Hondo. I'd normally put Lebron in front of him, but to rank Lebron yet another place lower than Dirk would be an even greater fail. So Hondo it is.

I know. I cannot believe that he passed Dirk on the list. I didn't get to vote, so it's my fault, too, I guess.:(

I don't know what else Nowitzki would need to do to be ranked higher than Lebron. He ripped him a new one just this past summer.:confusedshrug:

[RobertdeMeijer]

These guys are so opposite...

I really like LeBron. He's such a tragic figure, for whatever reason. In my opinion, a much more interesting player. But if I had to choose between his or Havlicek's career, I would go for Hondo's.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Hondo

I honestly could care less of how much better individually and physically Lebron is. Until Lebron wins at least one championship and finals MVP, he has no strong case to be ranked in the all-times rankings over Havlichek.

[Kblaze8855]

I'd normally put Lebron in front of him, but to rank Lebron yet another place lower than Dirk would be an even greater fail. So Hondo it is.



Im thinking that a vote for someone you dont think should be ahead over how you feel about someone in past round probably shouldnt count at all. My first instinct was to count it for Lebron since he flat out said Lebron should be higher than Hondo...but I think that would be disputed to say the least.

How do I count a vote like that?

Is spite justification enough?

Im thinking all it would do if I dont count it is have other who vote for those reasons not say so....

So it would still happen. But to flat out say it....

How do I count that as a serious vote?

[creepingdeath]

Im thinking that a vote for someone you dont think should be ahead over how you feel about someone in past round probably shouldnt count at all. My first instinct was to count it for Lebron since he flat out said Lebron should be higher than Hondo...but I think that would be disputed to say the least.

How do I count a vote like that?

Is spite justification enough?
Don't act like others haven't done that in previous voting rounds or won't do that again. At least I'm honest about it. And no need to refer to me in third person.

[D.J.]

LeBron


He doesn't have the accomplishments, but he's on another level as an individual talent. He has multiple MVPs, took Cleveland to success they had no business even sniffing, and he's a once in a lifetime player. We've never seen someone of his size, build, strength, and athleticism for his size putting up 30/7/7 on 50% shooting. It's just never happened.

[Kblaze8855]

Don't act like others haven't done that in previous voting rounds or won't do that again. At least I'm honest about it. And no need to refer to me in third person.

I wrote it to see what others thought which is why I put it the way I did.

And ive not really noticed much of that. In the guards list a couple times but people arent that emotional about the forwards and centers till we get this high.

Who cares enough aboutJerry Lucas vs Pierce or Dolph Schayes and Paul Arizin to vote for someone they rank lower than someone else over emotional reasons tied to someone in the last round?

I started out saying id take any vote that was explained but....cmon. Be easier if you just lied about it.

I hope it doesnt come down to 1 vote either way so this wont matter.

[Jacks3]

Easily LeBron. Best player in basketball the last 3 yrs, and was top 2-3 in the years before that. Hondo doesn't have a run even close to that. Stop hating.

[Pointguard]

I try not to vote on people that I did not see their strong points in play, but I'm stunned that Hondo beat Dirk. I watched a good dozen games where Hondo played in and can't say he even got my attention more than a bench player would. So I going with Lebron. Who on play alone is top ten.

[Kblaze8855]

I try not to vote on people that I did not see their strong points in play, but I'm stunned that Hondo beat Dirk. I watched a good dozen games where Hondo played in and can't say he even got my attention more than a bench player would. So I going with Lebron. Who on play alone is top ten.

Im kinda wondering which games these would be. his 3 most televised games would be the game where Kareem hit the game winning hook in the 74 finals(Hondo had 36 to lead all scorers and a nice floater over Kareem to get the lead Kareem erased at the buzzer). The 69 finals game 7 where he had 26/9/5. And the 76 finals triple OT game where he didnt score much(probably 20 or so) but was all over the place in the big famous moments including hitting the shot that had the garden storm the court thinking it was over before Heard hit the turnaround to force a 3rd ot.

Im not saying you have to be impressed by him in those games. But it would be hard not to really have him get your attention in them. Im wondering what you could be watching of him where he doesnt stand out. 64 finals comes on now and then but he was young and not a superstar yet.

[L.Kizzle]

Hondicek

[Harison]

Career - Honda, player - LeBronx

[creepingdeath]

I wrote it to see what others thought which is why I put it the way I did.

And ive not really noticed much of that. In the guards list a couple times but people arent that emotional about the forwards and centers till we get this high.

Who cares enough aboutJerry Lucas vs Pierce or Dolph Schayes and Paul Arizin to vote for someone they rank lower than someone else over emotional reasons tied to someone in the last round?

I started out saying id take any vote that was explained but....cmon. Be easier if you just lied about it.

I hope it doesnt come down to 1 vote either way so this wont matter.
I didn't want to sound butthurt, cause I'm not; I merely think that such things are inherent to polls like this.

Meh, just go ahead, then, and count my vote for Lebron.

[bizil]

In terms of peak value I would say Bron. However career wise I think Hondo is still over Bron. However, I feel career wise Bron has done enough to be in the top 5-7 SFs of all time already. He's been in the L almost 10 years, is the face of the L, is a two time MVP, and revolutionized his position. These are similar traits that had Jordan very high up on the SG list very early in his career. It didn't really take MJ long at all to be considered the number two SG of all time. He passed Iceman, Pete, and Monroe damn quick. West was tougher to pass, but he passed West on the GOAT SG list before or right at 30 years of age. It's the same reason Shaq made the 50 greatest list early in his career. Some guys make such an impact in their first 5-8 years that they can make the top 6-7 GOAT at their position. Bron is one of those players. But in terms of career, Bron hasn't passed Hondo just yet.

It seems Bron and Bird are on a collision course for the GOAT SF. But u can't just skip over Dr. J. I combine ABA and NBA shit for Doc as a whole. When u combine the sum of Doc's career, GOAT wise he Doc still has a case for the GREATEST SF OF ALL TIME! Now peak value I think Bird has the edge. But career wise, Doc has 4 MVPs, 4 titles, has over 30,000 points, and had tremendous longevity being a great player. It seemed Doc got better at the technical aspects as his career went on as well.

[RRR3]

I didn't want to sound butthurt, cause I'm not; I merely think that such things are inherent to polls like this.

Meh, just go ahead, then, and count my vote for Lebron.

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/1ee18e6f1f35725f46898f5bbd273eb3.jpg

[creepingdeath]

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/1ee18e6f1f35725f46898f5bbd273eb3.jpg
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmqn5uKjar1qcb5fko1_250.gif

[Kblaze8855]

I didn't want to sound butthurt, cause I'm not; I merely think that such things are inherent to polls like this.

Meh, just go ahead, then, and count my vote for Lebron.


Nah. Last thing i want is more people claiming i decided the outcome by just counting votes from other people. Your vote is your vote. I just wish i didnt know its reasons

[creepingdeath]

Nah. Last thing i want is more people claiming i decided the outcome by just counting votes from other people. Your vote is your vote. I just wish i didnt know its reasons
Yet your reasoning was absolutely correct. I actually do believe Lebron is the better player and should be ranked in front of Havlicek, so go ahead and count it. Or don't count it at all. Hell, do whatever you want, but don't blame me afterwards.

[Doranku]

I'm going with LeBron James.

Hondo obviously accomplished more team accolades, but he played on a team with a top 5 GOAT - the best defensive player ever, and a myriad of other HoFers.

Was Hondo ever the best player in the league? Was he even close? He only has two top 5 MVP finishes in his career.. LeBron has two of the actual awards.

And when it comes to who was actually the better player, quite frankly it's LeBron in a landslide. Hondo was a great player, but is he leading that 2007 Cavs team past the Pistons and into the Finals? Is he dropping 35/9/7 over 15+ games in the playoffs on 51% shooting? Is he anywhere near the mismatch nightmare that LeBron presents game in and game out?

[RRR3]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmqn5uKjar1qcb5fko1_250.gif
:lol What is that gif from?

[Pointguard]

Im kinda wondering which games these would be. his 3 most televised games would be the game where Kareem hit the game winning hook in the 74 finals(Hondo had 36 to lead all scorers and a nice floater over Kareem to get the lead Kareem erased at the buzzer). The 69 finals game 7 where he had 26/9/5. And the 76 finals triple OT game where he didnt score much(probably 20 or so) but was all over the place in the big famous moments including hitting the shot that had the garden storm the court thinking it was over before Heard hit the turnaround to force a 3rd ot.

Im not saying you have to be impressed by him in those games. But it would be hard not to really have him get your attention in them. Im wondering what you could be watching of him where he doesnt stand out. 64 finals comes on now and then but he was young and not a superstar yet.

They were mid to late 60's games on reel to reel. I didn't see much of the 70's except the Knicks, McAdoo, Kareem and Moses, once again on reel to reel. They played the Celtics in some of those games, but I recall only Dave Cowens clearly, Jo, jo white and Halivchek a bit. These games were opportune games here and there, what I could get my hands on.

[Gotterdammerung]

Lebron.

No GM will pick Hondo over Lebron in a fantasy draft. :no:

This is a clear argument for who's the better player straight up. Switch them around -- I'd imagine LeBron learning at Bill Russell's tutelage and absolutely annihilate the league. Hondo in LeBron's place would be a Manu Ginobili type with more endurance, and probably better team chemistry, a scrappy mid-level playoff team, but not 60-plus wins or league MVP.

Yes, Hondo has had the greater career, but Lebron has been in the league only 8 years, so we're penalizing him for an incomplete resume against 16 year resume.

The reasons some people pick Hondo over Lebron are the ones I'd pick Dr. J over Lebron. This is getting troll-ish. :facepalm

[magnax1]

I can't be the only one who watches Havlicek and gets the feeling he was never as good as he was made out to be. Hell, he never seemed to be as good as his stats either. He seems to be one of those guys that gets raised higher then guys better then him just because he won a ton. I mean... he's ahead of Elgin Baylor. That's a bit crazy to me. I'd have to say the same about Lebron too. He just wasn't ever on Lebron's level.
lebron

[pauk]

before i start... remember that:

1. That John Havlicek was a SIDEKICK...
2. That Lebron was the best player in the NBA... a much more talented-dominant-significant player...
3. That Lebron was in Top 10 in MVP voting almost all of his seasons, except his rookie year.... with multiple #1 votes every season... where as Havlicek was not even close to 1....

LEBRON JAMES

2 x MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
17 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
2 x Best NBA Player awards


STATS:

17362 points @ 27.7 PPG (#3 all time)
4451 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
4364 assists @ 7.0 APG
1079 steals @ 1.7 SPG
532 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
40 total triple doubles

PER - 26.9 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)


NBA achievements

One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.

One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.

One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.

One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.

One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.

One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.

One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.

One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.

Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.

One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.

One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.

One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008–09 season).[4] Includes Dave Cowens (1977–78), Scottie Pippen (1994–95) and Kevin Garnett (2002–03).

1st player in NBA History to receive 2.5 million NBA All-Star votes on 3 separate occasions.
1st player in NBA History to score at least 40 points in the first road playoff game with 41 points at the Washington Wizards on April 28, 2006.
1st player in NBA History to lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks for two consecutive seasons (2008–2009, 2009–2010).
1st forward in NBA history to average more than 8.0 assists per game (2009–2010).
2nd place all-time for consecutive 20-point games to start a playoff career with 19.[5] Behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 27 consecutive games

Most consecutive points scored for a team in a playoff game with 25 straight points at the Detroit Pistons on May 31, 2007.[6]


Youngest player records

James owns numerous NBA "youngest player" records. He is the youngest to:

To be selected #1 overall draft pick (18 years of age).[1]
To be named NBA Rookie of the Year (19 years of age).[1]
To record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[1] Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.
To record a triple-double in the playoffs. (21 years, 113 days).[1] Recorded 32 points, 11 rebounds, and 11 assists on April 22, 2006 vs. Washington Wizards.
To score 30 points in a game (18 years, 334 days).[1] Recorded 33 points on November 29, 2003 vs. Memphis Grizzlies
To score 40 points in a game (19 years, 88 days).[1] Recorded 41 points on March 27, 2004 vs. New Jersey Nets.
To score 2,000 points in a season (2004–05).[1]
To average at least 30 points per game in the NBA.
To be awarded All-NBA honors (2004–05).[1]
To be named to the All-NBA first team (21 years, 138 days).[1]
To win an All-Star Game MVP (21 years, 55 days).[1]
To lead the league in All-Star voting (22 years, 26 days).[1]
To lead the team in PPG (19 years of age).[1]
To score 2,000 points in seven consecutive seasons (26 years of age).[1]
To reach:[1]
Every thousand point milestone from 1,000 points through 17,000 points

[Kovach]

Hondo

I honestly could care less of how much better individually and physically Lebron is. Until Lebron wins at least one championship and finals MVP, he has no strong case to be ranked in the all-times rankings over Havlichek.
+1

Hondo for me for this exact same reason. Modern day Elvin Hayes has no business being ranked above him.

[Kblaze8855]

The actual Elvin Hayes finished ahead of hondo in MVP voting 3 times when he was contending from 73-76.

[L.Kizzle]

This is an All-Time ranking not who has more talent.
Tracy McGrady has more talent than Hondo I bet ...

[Pointguard]

I can't be the only one who watches Havlicek and gets the feeling he was never as good as he was made out to be. Hell, he never seemed to be as good as his stats either.

Exactly, if you see random games, you just don't get it with him. Maybe you hear Hondo and you think car and all you see is a un-adventful human.

[Kovach]

The actual Elvin Hayes finished ahead of hondo in MVP voting 3 times when he was contending from 73-76.
Yes, he was one of the greatest regular season players of all time, who cares?

[Kblaze8855]

I just found it amusing that you said the modern Elvin shouldnt be over him when the players ranked the actual Elvin over him while hondo was winning his last couple rings.

[jlauber]

Once again, Hondo is probably the most difficult player to rank among the "greats" in any of these lists. He was never even considered the best forward in his career. Still, he was a major part of EIGHT titles, including two AFTER Russell. He had some brilliant post-seasons, too.

Personally, I would take Dirk over Hondo, and would same with Lebron. BUT, if you factor in CAREER's, Lebron comes up short. Why? Havlickek played 16 seasons, and Lebron, despite missing college, has only played half as long. His PEAK is clearly better, but to claim that he has had a better CAREER at this point is questionable.

And I agree with other's here...if Hondo beat out Dirk, then he has to beat out Lebron.

Hondo.

[Pointguard]

before i start... remember that:

1. That John Havlicek was a SIDEKICK...
2. That Lebron was the best player in the NBA... a much more talented-dominant-significant player...
3. That Lebron was in Top 10 in MVP voting almost all of his seasons, except his rookie year.... with multiple #1 votes every season... where as Havlicek was not even close to 1....

Yeah, this win thing has totally decimated people's critical thinking skills. Not only that but Hondo's team won when only when he was a sidekick. His best years were when they lost. The second Cowens stepped up and it became his team, they won again.

You can arguably be the best all around, most complete player ever in the game, regularly be among the league leaders in scoring and be first team all defense, 2 time MVP. Unless the 70's was a vastly superior era can any justification be said for Hondo being superior. No MVP's. Didn't even pull top rank at his position much less always being in elite company.

The second you say PLAYER or GREAT or TOP Player or PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT or DOMINATION are being measured, Hondo isn't in the same grade, and one could argue that he wasn't a top player (definitely not in the argument of being the best) or even among the greats of his time - and nearly devoid of domination. But team achievement, now Hondo's teammates got the spot on lock-down for him. Its getting really bad.

[Lebron23]

Lebron

Why did Hondo beat Dirk?

[Brunch@Five]

Havlicek for the same reasons that put him over Dirk.
Bron hasn't won anything yet

[knightfall88]

since your career is about achievements, Hondo and it's not even close.

[creepingdeath]

It seems kind of strange that the same people who were voting for Hondo in the other thread are now wondering why he's ahead of Dirk. :lol


:lol What is that gif from?
I think it was played in the AAC about a decade ago.

[Yung D-Will]

Wait wasn't Dirk like destroying Hondo in the other thread X=

[Pushxx]

Hondo.

LeBron will eventually be higher than #10, but as of right now, there's no way you can rank LeBron over Hondo.

Also, Hondo's intangibles elevate his status. He was clutch as hell.

[Kblaze8855]

I'll give this till around midnight.

[Human Error]

Lebron.

People you are nuts. At what point for how long Havlicek was considered as the best player in the world? He was not even the best player on the team. ISH is officially retarded if Havlicek beat Lebron.

[G-train]

Hondo is in the top 5 forwards ever.
Lebron will be when its all said and done, but not yet.

[G-train]

Lebron.

People you are nuts. At what point for how long Havlicek was considered as the best player in the world? He was not even the best player on the team. ISH is officially retarded if Havlicek beat Lebron.

Its a career ranking.

[RRR3]

Hondo is in the top 5 forwards ever.
Lebron will be when its all said and done, but not yet.

Top 5?
...
Bird
TD
Barkley
Karl Malone
KG
Barry
Petit
:confusedshrug:

[Human Error]

Its a career ranking.
back to back mvp and a number one player in the world for 4 straight years.

[G-train]

Top 5?
...
Bird
TD
Barkley
Karl Malone
KG
Barry
Petit
:confusedshrug:

Bird
Duncan
Havlicek
Erving
Baylor
Barkley
Pettit
Malone
Lebron
Garnett

Next.

[G-train]

Basketball is a team game. Played on offence and defence.
Basketball is about 'The Secret'.

Hondo personifed true basketball.
And I am a Lebron fan and defender on this site.

[G-train]

Easily Hondo at this point. Its laughable to rank Lebron over Dirk all time as well.

Its not laughable. Its debateable.

Big difference.

[Dbrog]

This is an All-Time ranking not who has more talent.
Tracy McGrady has more talent than Hondo I bet ...

This was basically what I thought at this matchup. Let me first say that if we were ranking the best ever players, I would pick Bron. However, that is not what this list is. People so far have tended to favor accomplishments over all else (not saying I agree with it...in fact I've been disagreeing since BKs matchups). However, it would literally make 0 sense for Bron to go here since T-Mac isn't even ranked (or is last or something) and dudes like King get beat out by Pierce. Not saying that this is a "wrong" way of ranking players since everyone has their own opinion but within the context of this list, I have to go with Hondo.

[Kblaze8855]

It went back and forth the whole way but I think Hondo is up by 2 right now not counting two people who I couldnt decide who they were voting for.

Counting them.....it may be tied.

[RRR3]

This was basically what I thought at this matchup. Let me first say that if we were ranking the best ever players, I would pick Bron. However, that is not what this list is. People so far have tended to favor accomplishments over all else (not saying I agree with it...in fact I've been disagreeing since BKs matchups). However, it would literally make 0 sense for Bron to go here since T-Mac isn't even ranked (or is last or something) and dudes like King get beat out by Pierce. Not saying that this is a "wrong" way of ranking players since everyone has their own opinion but within the context of this list, I have to go with Hondo.
T-Mac was in the guards part of the project.

[L.Kizzle]

T-Mac was in the guards part of the project.
And Ray Allen was like 5 spots in head of him ... is Ray more talented than Mac, hell naw.

[Dbrog]

T-Mac was in the guards part of the project.

:lol omg...it's all blurring together for me. *goes to get more pie*

[RRR3]

:lol omg...it's all blurring together for me. *goes to get more pie*
Must be all that tryptophane :lol

[D-Wade316]

Hondo

I honestly could care less of how much better individually and physically Lebron is. Until Lebron wins at least one championship and finals MVP, he has no strong case to be ranked in the all-times rankings over Havlichek.
:facepalm Ring = Team accomplishment

In what world is Hondo anywhere near close Lebron? None. Not even close.

[305Baller]

James would destroy Havlicek.

Of course Havlicek has the more complete career.

[JMT]

Havlicek

One-on-one? James would probably win. Of course, Hondo is pretty old now.

5-on-5? Havlicek is a better player and had a better NBA career.

[D-Wade316]

Havlicek

One-on-one? James would probably win. Of course, Hondo is pretty old now.

5-on-5? Havlicek is a better player and had a better NBA career.
How can you say that Havlicek is the better player when he wasn't even considered the best sf in his era?

Havlicek definitely has the better career, but it pales in comparison to Lebron's sheer talent.

[JMT]

How can you say that Havlicek is the better player when he wasn't even considered the best sf in his era?

Havlicek definitely has the better career, but it pales in comparison to Lebron's sheer talent.

I'd take several SF from previous eras over the best SF of this era (if that's what James is). Talent isn't everything. Stephon Marbury had amazing talent.

Havlicek was a consistent fixture in the Top 10 in both assists and scoring; a better and more willing passer; a more consistent defender; and a proven clutch player.

And, of course, there's winning. Posters on ISH want to use championships when they favor their argument and disregard them as team accomplishments when they don't.

[Kovach]

:facepalm Ring = Team accomplishment

Finals MVP is not.

[D-Wade316]

I'd take several SF from previous eras over the best SF of this era (if that's what James is). Talent isn't everything. Stephon Marbury had amazing talent.

Havlicek was a consistent fixture in the Top 10 in both assists and scoring; a better and more willing passer; a more consistent defender; and a proven clutch player.

And, of course, there's winning. Posters on ISH want to use championships when they favor their argument and disregard them as team accomplishments when they don't.
Then name them. Also provide your reasons why.

Talent isn't everything of course, but Lebron has sustained it for 8 years. Wouldn't that be enough to rank him over Hondo when he won more accolades, except titles, in a shorter period of time? And don't compare Marbury to Lebron. :facepalm There's no comparison between them.

Lebron was a top-4 player since his 04-05. Best defender at his position. Better rebounder. Top-4 in scoring since 04-05. LOL @ Hondo being the better passer. He may be a more willing passer, but he is no Lebron in running/facilitating the offense of his team.

Titles are important, of course. But I'll state it once again, Hondo's career pales in comparison to Lebron's peak and prime.

[L.Kizzle]

How can you say that Havlicek is the better player when he wasn't even considered the best sf in his era?

Havlicek definitely has the better career, but it pales in comparison to Lebron's sheer talent.
Blame that on the idiots who have Elgin Baylor 4 spots back.

[D-Wade316]

Blame that on the idiots who have Elgin Baylor 4 spots back.
Yeah. No way Hondo>Baylor. Just no.

[JMT]

Then name them. Also provide your reasons why.



Too easy.

Erving and Bird played in the same era. I'd take both over James. So would anyone that watched all of them play.

Baylor and Havlicek. Depends what position you list Oscar Robertson as playing.

There may be more from other eras, but those came immediately to mind and I've got a plate of leftovers waiting for me.

[D-Wade316]

Too easy.

Erving and Bird played in the same era. I'd take both over James. So would anyone that watched all of them play.

Baylor and Havlicek. Depends what position you list Oscar Robertson as playing.

There may be more from other eras, but those came immediately to mind and I've got a plate of leftovers waiting for me.
:no: Both are over Lebron, because they had illustrious careers and were considered the best of their time. Lebron has a decent chance surpassing both of them. Baylor? Maybe since he pioneered over-the-rim play. Hondo? Nope. I'd rather have Barry as my franchise player over Hondo.

[JMT]

:no: Both are over Lebron, because they had illustrious careers and were considered the best of their time. Lebron has a decent chance surpassing both of them. Baylor? Maybe since he pioneered over-the-rim play. Hondo? Nope. I'd rather have Barry as my franchise player over Hondo.

You wanted me to name multiple SF from the same era that I'd take over James. Did just that. Sorry it didn't make you happy.

Oh yeah, missed Barry. Thanks for the reminder. I'd take him as well.

Despite a selfish reputation, managed to elevate teammates and win championships.

Why is James the only guy immune from the "didn't win championships" argument? Hell, Wilt won two and it's used to bash him.

[D-Wade316]

You wanted me to name multiple SF from the same era that I'd take over James. Did just that. Sorry it didn't make you happy.

Oh yeah, missed Barry. Thanks for the reminder. I'd take him as well.

Despite a selfish reputation, managed to elevate teammates and win championships.

Why is James the only guy immune from the "didn't win championships" argument? Hell, Wilt won two and it's used to bash him.
No. In fact he is bashed, insulted for not winning a title.

There's nothing to discuss with you anymore. I'm out.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Is there any chance we'll continue doing this?

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron James.

I scoff at any other notion. Hondo came into the league and joined a team with 5 other HOFers. They won titles in a league that had NINE TEAMS. That team would have won titles with me instead of Hondo.

He came off the bench for a long period. You are seriously taking a 6th man over the best player in the league?

What did Hondo ever lead the league in? NOTHING. NOT EVEN CLOSE. EVER (Minutes a few times).

I join the legions that question how Hondo could have possibly beat Dirk.

[oolalaa]

John Havlicek.

Until lebron shows me that he can lead/co-lead a team to a championship, i cannot rank him over hondo.

[RobertdeMeijer]

The way I counted, Hondo has 20 votes, and LeBron 17

[n00bie]

LeBron James.

How many Hall of Famers did Hondo play with?

Laughable to place Hondo's team accomplishments on a dominant Celtics team pre-merger as what makes him a greater player than LeBron.

I guess you forgot who Lebron is currently playing with? :oldlol:

Hondo FTW.

[D-Wade316]

Is there any chance we'll continue doing this?
Probably no.

Majority of the posters here believe the list is fukked up.:confusedshrug:

[I.R.Beast]

Easily Hondo at this point. Its laughable to rank Lebron over Dirk all time as well.


Couldn't agree more. Hondo easily.

[I.R.Beast]

You wanted me to name multiple SF from the same era that I'd take over James. Did just that. Sorry it didn't make you happy.

Oh yeah, missed Barry. Thanks for the reminder. I'd take him as well.

Despite a selfish reputation, managed to elevate teammates and win championships.

Why is James the only guy immune from the "didn't win championships" argument? Hell, Wilt won two and it's used to bash him.

Because it's leBron, if he doesnt have it then it's not legit. Haven't you heard. LBJ can go down as the PER king tho.....thats good enough for his fans i suppose.

[Lebron23]

LeBron just need at least 1 Finals MVP. He's going to surpass Hondo. Same with Wade who needs at least 1 regular season MVP.

[I.R.Beast]

LeBron just need at least 1 Finals MVP. He's going to surpass Hondo. Same with Wade who needs at least 1 regular season MVP.

Wade dont need any Reg season MVP.... He's proven champ and Goes HAM in the palyoffs. FMVP > MVP