Kobe Lovers: Defend His 2004 NBA Finals

[HurricaneKid]

With Shaq still at his peak level Kobe asserted himself as player 1A) on the team. Shaq shot 63.1% for the series and was all but unguardable. Yet Kobe shot 29 more times, refusing to pass it to the insanely efficient Shaq despite shooting only 38.1% from the field including 4/23 from 3. He forced some of the most absurd shots ever attempted outside of a game of horse. It was arguably the most selfish athletic performance ever. In fact, feel free to name a more selfish performance in your defense.

Go Ahead. Defend your boy.

[Heavincent]

He had a bad series. What's there to defend :confusedshrug:

At least he has 5 rings to make up for it. Just saying.

[HurricaneKid]

He had a bad series. What's there to defend :confusedshrug:

At least he has 5 rings to make up for it. Just saying.

Having a bad series against a great defensive team is understandable. What wasn't understandable was his insistence that he was the team alpha despite all the data saying otherwise. If he had simply fed Shaq they win that series handily. Instead his performance indicated that he would rather lose as the alpha than win as the second option. It was this series that broke up a dynasty, broke Shaq as a player (well that and the following offseason when he was dumped), left two NBA greats who joined the team to be on a winner, without rings.

[Thorn]

Not a die-hard Kobe fan but I'll give it a shot.

1. The 04 Pistons defense was unbelievable. After the Sheed trade, they accomplished many defensive achievements - that five game stretch where they held their opponents to below 70, below 80, etc. I remember during the playoffs, teams scored more than 90 points on them in only a few games - Game 5 of the Nets series which went triple OT, Game 2 of the Finals which went OT, and Games 2 and 4 of the Bucks series. I'd be willing to bet that 04 Pistons defense would be able to hold down any star perimeter player - Wade, Lebron, whoever. On top of that, Ben and Sheed played good post defense on Shaq I believe they were adept at denying the entry pass - despite that, Shaq's performance was excellent. Prince's defense on Kobe was probably the second best all year save for Bruce Bowen's.

2. The Lakers were shorthanded. Robert Horry was gone. Malone was injured in the Minny series which left Rasheed covered by I think Slava. Malone's defense was very good on Duncan and Garnett in the previous 2 series and his D was sorely missed. I believe Rick Fox was also injured which left their bench thin. Devean George started in his place. Malone missed Game 5 completely and played 21 and 18 in Games 3 and 4 respectively.

3. Payton's defense on Billups was practically non-existant. He went off for 21/3/5 - doesn't sound like much but given the final scores of the games plus the defensive era (that 94-04 era which was probably the best defensive era so far), it was significant.

4. Kobe's circumstances were exhausting both physically and mentally. Given the rape trial hindering his capabilities, a finger injury, and playing heavy minutes against Houston (44 MPG), SAS (44), Minny (43) and Detroit (46) it's not hard to see that his play suffered as a result. Hell, I think that comes out to even more minutes than Lebron played last year because Kobe played 22 games while Lebron played 21.

5. Offensively, the Lakers were not as good as prior years outside of the Big Four and even Payton and Malone were shells of themselves. If Shaq wasn't playing well or he was being denied in the post or whatever, then it was up to Kobe to take a bailout shot or make something happen.

Overall...yeah, this was Kobe's worst Finals by far. But taking into account the Lakers' dysfunction, the elite defense of the Pistons, and Kobe's distractions off the court...it at least makes sense. He at least had a bright spot - Game 2's game tying three.

edit: added Malone's minutes played for Games 3-5

[KingBeasley08]

Cuz Shaq woulda been Finals MVP again and Kobe couldn't tolerate that

[32Dayz]

There is nothing to defend.

Kobe sabotaged the team and was the main reason they lost.

Its been a couple of years though so its time to move on I think.

Also what KingBeasley said.

[RRR3]

I'm no Kobe lover but he had a bad series that's all. Happens to a lot Of players.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Anybody who thinks simply giving Shaq the ball more considering he made less than 35% of his FTs in Game 3, 4 and 5 of that series would have led to a Lakers championship is delusional to the max.

It didn't do the calculations but I would bet Kobe was the 2nd most efficient Laker despite his horrible shooting. How many points do you expect Shaq to score if Kobe is shooting terrible and yet is still your the 2nd best second option?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_finals.html

[rodman91]

http://gyazo.com/e3185f81ac915109fa9f20ca704bce1c.png

[32Dayz]

Kobe was purposefully keeping the ball to himself and chucking to spite Shaq.

Shaq was destroying the Detroit Defense and yet Kobe continued to Chuck instead of feeding him in the post.

Shaq was shooting 50% from the Line and taking 10 FT's a game so thats 2-3ppg per game he is losing out on.
LMAO at trying to say that's the reason they lost. :lol

If Kobe had fed Shaq LA would have won, its pretty obvious.

Kobe's 2004 Finalz performance is by far the WOAT for a top 1-20 GOAT level player.

[BlackJoker23]

Not a die-hard Kobe fan but I'll give it a shot.

1. The 04 Pistons defense was unbelievable. After the Sheed trade, they accomplished many defensive achievements - that five game stretch where they held their opponents to below 70, below 80, etc. I remember during the playoffs, teams scored more than 90 points on them in only a few games - Game 5 of the Nets series which went triple OT, Game 2 of the Finals which went OT, and Games 2 and 4 of the Bucks series. I'd be willing to bet that 04 Pistons defense would be able to hold down any star perimeter player - Wade, Lebron, whoever. On top of that, Ben and Sheed played good post defense on Shaq I believe they were adept at denying the entry pass - despite that, Shaq's performance was excellent. Prince's defense on Kobe was probably the second best all year save for Bruce Bowen's.

2. The Lakers were shorthanded. Robert Horry was gone. Malone was injured in the Minny series which left Rasheed covered by I think Slava. Malone's defense was very good on Duncan and Garnett in the previous 2 series and his D was sorely missed. I believe Rick Fox was also injured which left their bench thin. Devean George started in his place.

3. Payton's defense on Billups was practically non-existant. He went off for 21/3/5 - doesn't sound like much but given the final scores of the games plus the defensive era (that 94-04 era which was probably the best defensive era so far), it was significant.

4. Kobe's circumstances were exhausting both physically and mentally. Given the rape trial hindering his capabilities, a finger injury, and playing heavy minutes against Houston (44 MPG), SAS (44), Minny (43) and Detroit (46) it's not hard to see that his play suffered as a result. Hell, I think that comes out to even more minutes than Lebron played last year because Kobe played 22 games while Lebron played 21.

5. Offensively, the Lakers were not as good as prior years outside of the Big Four and even Payton and Malone were shells of themselves. If Shaq wasn't playing well or he was being denied in the post or whatever, then it was up to Kobe to take a bailout shot or make something happen.

Overall...yeah, this was Kobe's worst Finals by far. But taking into account the Lakers' dysfunction, the elite defense of the Pistons, and Kobe's distractions off the court...it at least makes sense. He at least had a bright spot - Game 2's game tying three.
excellent post bro. kobe wasnt even that bad. just facing the goat defense.

[32Dayz]

excellent post bro. kobe wasnt even that bad. just facing the goat defense.

lol "GOAT Defense"

Shaq was making a mockery out of that defense.

If Kobe had fed Shaq more they would have won or at worst pushed it to 6, 7 games.

Kobe cost them that title with his selfishness and poor play, quit pushing revisionist history.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

lol "GOAT Defense"

Shaq was making a mockery out of that defense.

If Kobe had fed Shaq more they would have won or at worst pushed it to 6, 7 games.

Kobe cost them that title with his selfishness and poor play, quit pushing revisionist history.

How many points/shots would have Shaq had to average to ensure a Lakers playoff victory and has he ever had that amount of scoring production in any playoff series in history?

[32Dayz]

How many points/shots would have Shaq had to average to ensure a Lakers playoff victory and has he ever had that amount of scoring production in any playoff series in history?

He should have been taking 25-30 shots per game at a minimum.

[Blue&Orange]

He had a bad series. What's there to defend :confusedshrug:

At least he has 5 rings to make up for it. Just saying.
Playing with prime shaq and with a frontcourt of Gasol, Bynum and Odom in the probably weakest leagues in the history of the game, frontcourt-wise, and getting 5 rings, i could name you easily more than 10 players that would have done the same.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Playing with prime shaq and with a frontcourt of Gasol, Bynum and Odom in the probably weakest leagues in the history of the game, frontcourt-wise, and getting 5 rings, i could name you easily more than 10 players that would have done the same.

I can name you 10 bigs that would have won 3 rings playing alongside a 25/5/5 guy, and another playing alongside a 27/5/8 guy :confusedshrug:

[32Dayz]

I can name you 10 bigs that would have won 3 rings playing alongside a 25/5/5 guy, and another playing alongside a 27/5/8 guy :confusedshrug:

There are only two Bigmen/Centers in the history of the game who have produced anywhere near Shaq's level over 5, 7, 10 and 13 year periods in the playoffs.

Your talking Wilt, Kareem and Duncan.

B and R is correct in that you can probably easily find 5-10 guards who have produced at 00-02 Kobe's level or much higher.

Quick 3 :
Wade
Lebron
West

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He should have been taking 25-30 shots per game at a minimum.

Shaq attempting 25-30 shots in the playoffs


happened 7 times in 2000
happened 4 times in 2001
happened 3 times in 2002
happened 2 times in 2003
happened 0 times in 2004
happened 0 times in 2005
happened 0 times in 2006

:oldlol:

[32Dayz]

Shaq attempting 25-30 shots in the playoffs


happened 7 times in 2000
happened 4 times in 2001
happened 3 times in 2002
happened 2 times in 2003
happened 0 times in 2004
happened 0 times in 2005
happened 0 times in 2006

:oldlol:

Funny how as his shot attempts went down and Kobe's went up LA started to lose.

Just a coincidence I guess. :applause:

[BlackJoker23]

He should have been taking 25-30 shots per game at a minimum.
shaq was getting played on one on one fakkit. pistons focused on kobe because they knew it was his team. the first option, always was always will be.


goat

:bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Funny how as his shot attempts went down and Kobe's went up LA started to lose.

Just a coincidence I guess. :applause:

01 and 02 championships :confusedshrug:

[32Dayz]

shaq was getting played on one on one fakkit. pistons focused on kobe because they knew it was his team. the first option, always was always will be.


goat

:bowdown:

lol, Kobe did a great job leading "his team" :lol

Also learn to spell bruh.

[BlackJoker23]

lol, Kobe did a great job leading "his team" :lol

Also learn to spell bruh.
already know fakkit. i know the difference between your and you're to say the least

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

There are only two Bigmen/Centers in the history of the game who have produced anywhere near Shaq's level over 5, 7, 10 and 13 year periods in the playoffs.

Your talking Wilt, Kareem and Duncan.

B and R is correct in that you can probably easily find 5-10 guards who have produced at 00-02 Kobe's level or much higher.

Quick 3 :
Wade
Lebron
West

I didn't know LeBron was a guard :oldlol:

Besides, Kobe won with Gasol and Bynum playing on one leg. They seemed to do a good job replacing Shaq.

Duncan, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, hell even Howard. Kobe could win with them. Probably except for 2000 since that was Shaq's best year. All the other years he was putting up 1st option numbers already and having dominant playoff runs.

[32Dayz]

Wade
Lebron
TMac
Larry Bird
Drexler
West
Magic
Pierce
Iverson
Carter
Jordan
Oscar Robertson

[rodman91]

shaq was getting played on one on one fakkit. pistons focused on kobe because they knew it was his team. the first option, always was always will be.


goat

:bowdown:

http://www.hhweb.com/images/2002nbachamps/Shaq_MVP_3_In_A_Row_Composite_JPG_small.jpg

Find a photo of "Kobe MVP 3 in a row" and we discuss whose team it was

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wade
Lebron
TMac
Larry Bird
Drexler
West
Magic
Pierce
Iverson
Carter

oof :oldlol:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Wade
Lebron
TMac
Larry Bird
Drexler
West
Magic
Pierce
Iverson
Carter
Jordan

None of the bolded guys are guards. And Iverson and Carter? :roll:

[HurricaneKid]

But there is a huge difference between playing poorly and playing for yourself without regard to your team. He put himself in front of the team. Period. LBJ had a bad Finals. But he shot 48% and wasn't a detriment to his team.

[32Dayz]

None of the bolded guys are guards. And Iverson and Carter? :roll:

Carter is a "maybe" but Iverson yes and yes to the rest.

Carter in the very early 00's and when he first joined NJ would be good enough.

[Droid101]

"Shot attempts" doesn't take into account all the times Shaq got the ball, went up for a shot, and was wrapped up.

If you watch the series, the discrepancy between the amount of Kobe's shots, and the amount of Shaq's shots plus the times he was wrapped up while shooting (which doesn't go on the stat sheet as a shot attempt unless he makes it) is a lot closer than the Box Score shows.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

But there is a huge difference between playing poorly and playing for yourself without regard to your team. He put himself in front of the team. Period. LBJ had a bad Finals. But he shot 48% and wasn't a detriment to his team.

How was he not? He cost them the finals. :roll:

If he would have played even AVERAGE they would have won.

He saw Wade was gonna get FMVP so he decided to shut it down so they would lose. :oldlol:

[32Dayz]

"Shot attempts" doesn't take into account all the times Shaq got the ball, went up for a shot, and was wrapped up.

If you watch the series, the discrepancy between the amount of Kobe's shots, and the amount of Shaq's shots plus the times he was wrapped up while shooting (which doesn't go on the stat sheet as a shot attempt unless he makes it) is a lot closer than the Box Score shows.

Yea.. because that happens often. :rolleyes:

That rarely ever happens and 99% of the time when it does it will show up as a missed shot.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yea.. because that happens often. :rolleyes:

That rarely ever happens and 99% of the time when it does it will show up as a missed shot.

Where do you think the term hack a shaq comes from? :facepalm

[32Dayz]

Where do you think the term hack a shaq comes from? :facepalm

Hack-A-Shaq was a rarely used failing strategy that only worked on the rare night that Shaq shot especially bad from the line and the opponents purposely sent him to the line 15-30+ times.

That was not used in the 2004 series and Shaq shot well enough over the series 50% that he was only losing 2-3ppg due to FT's.

That isn't what he meant anyway.

[Droid101]

Yea.. because that happens often. :rolleyes:

That rarely ever happens and 99% of the time when it does it will show up as a missed shot.
So... you admit:

1) You don't watch the sport of basketball. Shaq got wrapped up constantly, especially when he backed his man down so low under the basket that it would be a guaranteed dunk. In fact, that happens when just about any center gets the ball in such a position.

2) You don't know the rules of basketball. If you are fouled in the act of shooting, if you miss the shot, it does not count as a missed shot attempt, and you get two (or three) free throws. If you make the shot attempt, it counts as a made shot, and you get one free throw.

[Thorn]

lol "GOAT Defense"

Shaq was making a mockery out of that defense.

If Kobe had fed Shaq more they would have won or at worst pushed it to 6, 7 games.

Kobe cost them that title with his selfishness and poor play, quit pushing revisionist history.

Well, the problem with getting Shaq the ball was that he had to deal with two elite post defenders in Ben and Sheed. Malone's injury essentially allowed Sheed to double Shaq constantly. You know how in the 00 WCF Portland had Pip, Sheed, and Sabonis all harassing Shaq forcing him to kick it out? It's sort of the same situation here. However, the only offensively capable person other than Shaq was Kobe, forcing him to take a bunch of bad shots. Didn't help that Payton averaged 4/3/4 or that the third highest scorer was Fisher who averaged 6 ppg. It's not as simple as saying Kobe should've gotten Shaq the ball especially when considering this Pistons team was probably the best defensively in the past decade.

[32Dayz]

So... you admit:

1) You don't watch the sport of basketball. Shaq got wrapped up constantly, especially when he backed his man down so low under the basket that it would be a guaranteed dunk.

2) You don't know the rules of basketball. If you are fouled in the act of shooting, if you miss the shot, it does not count as a missed shot attempt, and you get two (or three) free throws. If you make the shot attempt, it counts as a made shot, and you get one free throw.

Your an idiot.

I have watched every game from that series. Prime Shaq under the basket is a guaranteed Dunk which is why he shot close to 65% in the series.

Shaq does not expose the ball to his defender so its practically impossible for him to be "wrapped up" especially considering his size advantage over Ben and Rasheed Wallace.

The only thing they could do to stop him was to foul him period.

Dumbass :facepalm

[BlackJoker23]

Your an idiot.

irony is strong

[32Dayz]

irony is strong

Only for yourself. :lol

[pegasus]

But there is a huge difference between playing poorly and playing for yourself without regard to your team. He put himself in front of the team. Period. LBJ had a bad Finals. But he shot 48% and wasn't a detriment to his team.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

He was nothing but that.

Detroit played great defense and deserved the win that year. Kobe had a bad series, but wasn't the only reason why they lost. Last year, Lebron was the ONLY reason Miami lost. I still cannot believe that he couldn't even play like a decent fourth option.

[eliteballer]

Huh.......Shaq got outrebounded and blocked as many shots at Kobe.

Kobe was coming off knee and shoulder surgeries, and taking IV's during the playoffs. he wasn't 100%. He only took 22 shots a game in the series and was a team leader in assists:mad:

[Droid101]

Shaq does not expose the ball to his defender so its practically impossible for him to be "wrapped up" especially considering his size advantage over Ben and Rasheed Wallace.
So, once again, you prove you know nothing about basketball.

You don't have to expose the ball to be wrapped up. If Shaq caught an entry pass right under the basket, the defensive player would just do a bear hug on him to prevent the dunk.

If I wasn't at work, I'd post about 1,000,000 YouTube videos showing Shaq (or any other center) being wrapped up.

[32Dayz]

Huh.......Shaq only averaged 11rpg.

Kobe was coming off knee and shoulder surgeries, and taking IV's during the playoffs. he wasn't 100%. He only took 22 shots a game in the series and was a team leader in assists:mad:

:roll:

[32Dayz]

So, once again, you prove you know nothing about basketball.

You don't have to expose the ball to be wrapped up. If Shaq caught an entry pass right under the basket, the defensive player would just do a bear hug on him to prevent the dunk.

If I wasn't at work, I'd post about 1,000,000 YouTube videos showing Shaq (or any other center) being wrapped up.

Fouling someone is not "wrapping someone up"
its just giving up since you cant defend the player.
Since Shaq only took 10ft's a game and shot 50% he was only losing 2-3ppg from the line, hardly a severe detriment to his team or one of the reasons they lost.

[pegasus]

:roll:

I'm glad you finally looked in the mirror.

[32Dayz]

I'm glad you finally looked in the mirror.

Good one. :rolleyes:

[HurricaneKid]

How was he not? He cost them the finals. :roll:

If he would have played even AVERAGE they would have won.

He saw Wade was gonna get FMVP so he decided to shut it down so they would lose. :oldlol:

Again, there is a line between having a bad series and putting yourself in front of the team. Especially in the Finals.

LBJ wasn't as big as the moment and deferred too often. his crime is that he didn't face the moment which is what we ask of our sports stars. Kobe's crime was the opposite. His ego got the better of him and rather than play to win the game he played to be the alpha. I am still waiting the answer to the question in the OP. Show me a more selfish performance in sports in the past 10 years.

In my estimation Kobe's crime is far worse than LeBron's.

[KingBeasley08]

Kobe and Lebron were completely different. Lebron didn't take any shots and kept passing to Wade. Kobe ball-hogged and never gave it to Shaq

[32Dayz]

http://www.vibe.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/image-full-size/images/shaq-vs-kobe-8.jpg

[32Dayz]

Kobe and Lebron were completely different. Lebron didn't take any shots and kept passing to Wade. Kobe ball-hogged and never gave it to Shaq

Very True.

Lebron hurt the Heat with his lack of contributions.
Kobe hurt the Lakers with his contributions.

Kobe's performance was far worse since if he had deferred like Bron did LA would have done much better.

[HurricaneKid]

Huh.......Shaq got outrebounded and blocked as many shots at Kobe.

Kobe was coming off knee and shoulder surgeries, and taking IV's during the playoffs. he wasn't 100%. He only took 22 shots a game in the series and was a team leader in assists:mad:

We have a winner!!!

Here is the list of players in the last 10 Finals that have shot more than 22.6 shots/game (which is what Kobe did in this series)

Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade

Thats the list.

If you aren't well and someone on your team is shooting 63% to your 38% YOU PASS THEM THE BALL. You don't just shoot as much as anyone else in the past 10 years.

[monkeypox]

The real question is why Shaq, supposedly the most dominant player, couldn't take this team full of legends to the promise land. Lol, when they succeed it's always because of someone else, when they fail it's only his fault.

[32Dayz]

The real question is why Shaq, supposedly the most dominant player, couldn't take this team full of legends to the promise land. Lol, when they succeed it's always because of someone else, when they fail it's only his fault.

Shaq is a post player he isn't gonna dribble the ball upcourt himself, if one of his teammates decides to screw him over and keep the ball away from him he cant do anything to stop him.
Phil should have benched Kobe or told him to feed the post more.

http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/shaq-and-kobe.jpg

http://theinspirationroom.com/daily/print/2009/6/nba-kobe-shaq.jpg

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Very True.

Lebron hurt the Heat with his lack of contributions.
Kobe hurt the Lakers with his contributions.

Kobe's performance was far worse since if he had deferred like Bron did LA would have done much better.

Says who? There's no guarantee that 1 guy would have beaten the Pistons. You think Shaq is going to average 40+ ppg in that series?

Both finals were terrible. Kobe's and LeBron's. Who cares what it stemmed from? The result was the same. Both players' respective teams lost when they were expected to win.

Hell, show me more passiveness and shrinkage from a superstar in the finals in the last 10 years than LeBron in the 2011 finals. People are saying LeBron didn't take shots. He did. He just bricked them in the 4th quarter. Either that or he turned the ball over which is even worse than missing a shot.

[32Dayz]

Says who? There's no guarantee that 1 guy would have beaten the Pistons. You think Shaq is going to average 40+ ppg in that series?

Both finals were terrible. Kobe's and LeBron's. Who cares what it stemmed from? The result was the same. Both players' respective teams lost when they were expected to win.

Hell, show me more passiveness and shrinkage from a superstar in the finals in the last 10 years than LeBron in the 2011 finals.

I dont mean it as an insult to Kobe I just think LA would have done better if he had made more of an effort to feed the post.

Both performances were terrible.

Shaq was converting at an absurdly efficient rate and unless he started missing or getting shutdown Kobe really should have found a way to feed him more.

Especially since Kobe himself was having no luck scoring against the Detroit D.

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe was purposefully keeping the ball to himself and chucking to spite Shaq.

Shaq was destroying the Detroit Defense and yet Kobe continued to Chuck instead of feeding him in the post.

Shaq was shooting 50% from the Line and taking 10 FT's a game so thats 2-3ppg per game he is losing out on.
LMAO at trying to say that's the reason they lost. :lol

If Kobe had fed Shaq LA would have won, its pretty obvious.

Kobe's 2004 Finalz performance is by far the WOAT for a top 1-20 GOAT level player.

The Lakers tried to just feed it to Shaq in game 4 but Shaq got tired at the end.

[32Dayz]

The Lakers tried to just feed it to Shaq in game 4 but Shaq got tired at the end.

What... :wtf:

Shaq in Game 4 : 36/20/2 on 16-21 shooting 76%

Shaq absolutely "raped" the Pistons in G4.

Kobe went 8-25... with 2 assists

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I dont mean it as an insult to Kobe I just think LA would have done better if he had made more of an effort to feed the post.

Both performances were terrible.

Shaq was converting at an absurdly efficient rate and unless he started missing or getting shutdown Kobe really should have found a way to feed him more.

I understand what you are saying and I am telling you it's not as easy as that. 1 guy isn't going to beat a team. All that could've (miraculously) happened is that the Lakers lose in 6 instead of 5. Just because a guy's volume increases doesn't mean his efficiency won't take a hit.

[32Dayz]

Well we can agree then.

I dont say LA automatically wins if they feed Shaq more but I think they would have pushed the series to 6 or 7 games and they would have had a chance to win.

[Bigsmoke]

What... :wtf:

Shaq in Game 4 : 36/20/2 on 16-21 shooting 76%

Shaq absolutely "raped" the Pistons in G4.

Kobe went 8-25... with 2 assists

he had a dominated first half and then got tired towards the end.

[32Dayz]

he had a dominated first half and then got tired towards the end.

Shaq had 12 points in the 4th Quarter.
6 in the 3rd.

[monkeypox]

Shaq is a post player he isn't gonna dribble the ball upcourt himself, if one of his teammates decides to screw him over and keep the ball away from him he cant do anything to stop him.
Phil should have benched Kobe or told him to feed the post more.

[/IMG]

Lol, excuses excuses. It was Shaq's team and he failed. Yet all I hear is crying about how Phil should have done this and Kobe should have done that. You give Shaq a pass in a system designed around him because you think Kobe was playing keep away from Shaq. Hey he could have gotten put-backs off of rebounds right? Gotten more open for passes? Played off the ball? But no, it's all Kobe's fault somehow. Yes the team should have catered to him even MORE. THAT was the problem. Let him sit out more on company time while he eats hamburgers all day. Lol. History has shown that without Kobe he is unable to lead a team to a championship, regardless of how good a guard he gets paired up with.

Kobe on the other hand, on a team not built around him, where he has to sacrifice his style of play to defer to Shaq, it's somehow his fault when the team as a whole fails. Yeah he had a horrible series, but why is it always his fault when it was supposedly Shaq's team? You can't say that the 3-peat was all shaq then say the failure was all Kobe. Just admit that Kobe was 1b on the team so his failure was catastrophic for that championship run.

See? Either Kobe get's no credit for the first three rings, and the two failures were Shaq's fault. Or Kobe was way more than a 2nd banana and his poor showing against the Pistons sunk the team since he meant so much to them.

There's far more evidence of Shaq being an underachieving MDE candidate that rode to success on the backs of the some of the greatest guards in the game than there is that Kobe is just an all-star level guard that has rode the backs of Shaq and such legendary big men as Gasol and Bynum to championships. Kobe's impact > Gason + Bynum = Shaq had more help and a lesser share of his championships.

[32Dayz]

Just admit that Kobe was 1b on the team.

http://smallbiztrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/no1.jpg

Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

Also.
http://images.wikia.com/callofduty/images/2/20/Kobe-U-Mad.jpg

LOL @ Kobe sacrificing his game when he took by far the most Shot Attempts. Poor Poor Kobe :cry:

[HurricaneKid]

Says who? There's no guarantee that 1 guy would have beaten the Pistons. You think Shaq is going to average 40+ ppg in that series?

Both finals were terrible. Kobe's and LeBron's. Who cares what it stemmed from? The result was the same. Both players' respective teams lost when they were expected to win.

Hell, show me more passiveness and shrinkage from a superstar in the finals in the last 10 years than LeBron in the 2011 finals. People are saying LeBron didn't take shots. He did. He just bricked them in the 4th quarter. Either that or he turned the ball over which is even worse than missing a shot.

Here are the per game averages:

Kobe
8.3/22.6 (.381) .8/4.6 3pt (.174) 22.6ppg Reb 2.8, Asst 4.4, TO-3.6, St 1.8, 46.2mpg

LBJ
7.2/15 (.478) 1.5/4.7 3pt (.321) 17.8ppg, Reb 7.2, Asst 6.8, TO 4.0, St 1.7, 43.7mpg

LBJ didn't take over like he should have and was far too passive but he was literally one rebound away in the series from leading his team in Reb, Asst, stl while shooting 48% from the field. It was a disappointing series but deferring to a player who is faring so well in Wade isn't the end of the world.

Kobe had a dominant force at his disposal that he would look off before forcing a 26 ft fall away. In the closest two LA losses Shaq shot 13/16 and 16/21 from the field. Kobe shot 10/27 and 8/25. I mean how does that even happen? Stop pretending Detroit was doing such a great job on Shaq and that Kobe had to shoot. Detroit had no answer for Shaq except for to hope Kobe kept shooting.

[pegasus]

Lol, excuses excuses. It was Shaq's team and he failed. Yet all I hear is crying about how Phil should have done this and Kobe should have done that. You give Shaq a pass in a system designed around him because you think Kobe was playing keep away from Shaq. Hey he could have gotten put-backs off of rebounds right? Gotten more open for passes? Played off the ball? But no, it's all Kobe's fault somehow. Yes the team should have catered to him even MORE. THAT was the problem. Let him sit out more on company time while he eats hamburgers all day. Lol. History has shown that without Kobe he is unable to lead a team to a championship, regardless of how good a guard he gets paired up with.

Kobe on the other hand, on a team not built around him, where he has to sacrifice his style of play to defer to Shaq, it's somehow his fault when the team as a whole fails. Yeah he had a horrible series, but why is it always his fault when it was supposedly Shaq's team? You can't say that the 3-peat was all shaq then say the failure was all Kobe. Just admit that Kobe was 1b on the team so his failure was catastrophic for that championship run.

See? Either Kobe get's no credit for the first three rings, and the two failures were Shaq's fault. Or Kobe was way more than a 2nd banana and his poor showing against the Pistons sunk the team since he meant so much to them.

There's far more evidence of Shaq being an underachieving MDE candidate that rode to success on the backs of the some of the greatest guards in the game than there is that Kobe is just an all-star level guard that has rode the backs of Shaq and such legendary big men as Gasol and Bynum to championships. Kobe's impact > Gason + Bynum = Shaq had more help and a lesser share of his championships.

Great post!:applause:

Shaq was lucky to have been paired with the second greatest SG of all time and that whistle-magnet in 2006.

[32Dayz]

Great post!:applause:

Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

http://images.wikia.com/callofduty/images/2/20/Kobe-U-Mad.jpg

[HurricaneKid]

Shaq had 12 points in the 4th Quarter.
6 in the 3rd.

Exactly. He only had 18 of his 36 points in the second half.

[Jon_Koncak]

Shaq should play off the ball?Wtf thats the most ridiculous thing i've read.Like do what,come off screens and hit jumpers?:roll:

How is a huge center supposed to play off the ball in offense

[32Dayz]

Shaq should play off the ball?Wtf thats the most ridiculous thing i've read.Like do what,come off screens and hit jumpers?:roll:

How is a huge center supposed to play off the ball in offense

Shaq shoulda been draining 3's :roll:

[HurricaneKid]

Shaq shoulda been draining 3's :roll:

He probably could have gone 4/23...

[LBJ 23]

In my estimation Kobe's crime is far worse than LeBron's.


I don't know who's crime is worse but one thing I know is that if you play passively and you're not forcing anything, consequently you give more options and more space to work with to your teammates, to overshadow your lack of aggressivness and maybe they can step up and win the game for you.

If you are playing way to selfishly and forcing too many low percentage shots you don't give that option to anybody. You alone can not win a game playing like that, especially not in the Finals and your team is doomed to failure cuz your teammates don't even smell the ball enough to possibly overshadow your ''bad series''.

[HurricaneKid]

I don't know who's crime is worse but one thing I know is that if you play passively and you're not forcing anything, consequently you give more options and more space to work with to your teammates, to overshadow your lack of aggressivness and maybe they can step up and win the game for you.

If you are playing way to selfishly and forcing too many low percentage shots you don't give that option to anybody. You alone can not win a game playing like that, especially not in the Finals and your team is doomed to failure cuz your teammates don't even smell the ball enough to possibly overshadow your ''bad series''.

Kinda sounds like you do know. A look at your name and I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on the matter.

[madmax]

Lol, excuses excuses. It was Shaq's team and he failed. Yet all I hear is crying about how Phil should have done this and Kobe should have done that. You give Shaq a pass in a system designed around him because you think Kobe was playing keep away from Shaq. Hey he could have gotten put-backs off of rebounds right? Gotten more open for passes? Played off the ball? But no, it's all Kobe's fault somehow. Yes the team should have catered to him even MORE. THAT was the problem. Let him sit out more on company time while he eats hamburgers all day. Lol. History has shown that without Kobe he is unable to lead a team to a championship, regardless of how good a guard he gets paired up with.

Kobe on the other hand, on a team not built around him, where he has to sacrifice his style of play to defer to Shaq, it's somehow his fault when the team as a whole fails. Yeah he had a horrible series, but why is it always his fault when it was supposedly Shaq's team? You can't say that the 3-peat was all shaq then say the failure was all Kobe. Just admit that Kobe was 1b on the team so his failure was catastrophic for that championship run.

See? Either Kobe get's no credit for the first three rings, and the two failures were Shaq's fault. Or Kobe was way more than a 2nd banana and his poor showing against the Pistons sunk the team since he meant so much to them.

There's far more evidence of Shaq being an underachieving MDE candidate that rode to success on the backs of the some of the greatest guards in the game than there is that Kobe is just an all-star level guard that has rode the backs of Shaq and such legendary big men as Gasol and Bynum to championships. Kobe's impact > Gason + Bynum = Shaq had more help and a lesser share of his championships.

LMAO...what a bunch of horseshit:facepalm
No wonder Kobrick stans are worst of the kind...do you guys even believe the crap you are spouting?

[Legends66NBA7]

Nothing to defend about it.

[Rake2204]

The 2004 Finals remind me of when I try to use a dominant center in NBA 2K. I'll start the game by force-feeding him in the post and he'll often score or get fouled. But somehow, someway, through game flow or god knows what, I slowly stop going inside to my big. I can't explain it, it just happens. It seems like that's what happened with Shaq in the '04 series. As a Pistons fan, I learned quickly that it was okay to let Shaq get his early because I knew it wouldn't be sustained; either he'd wear out or just slowly get worked out of the offense. I don't know what happened.

[HurricaneKid]

Nothing to defend about it.

He took more shots per game than any other player except for one in the past 10 years while shooting a dismal 38%. He did this while freezing out his teammate who was shooting an epic 63% from the field. If you saw these games you would understand what I am talking about. To brazenly say there is nothing to apologize for is absurd.

[Rake2204]

He took more shots per game than any other player except for one in the past 10 years while shooting a dismal 38%. He did this while freezing out his teammate who was shooting an epic 63% from the field. If you saw these games you would understand what I am talking about. To brazenly say there is nothing to apologize for is absurd.
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying there's nothing to defend. Folks seem to acknowledge he played poorly and made mistakes. It happens to the best of us.

[MiseryCityTexas]

i remember jordan played like crap in that 96 finals against seattle also.

[Legends66NBA7]

He took more shots per game than any other player except for one in the past 10 years while shooting a dismal 38%. He did this while freezing out his teammate who was shooting an epic 63% from the field. If you saw these games you would understand what I am talking about. To brazenly say there is nothing to apologize for is absurd.

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm not on Kobe's side for this series. There is nothing to defend about Kobe in this series at all. That's all I am saying.

I am actually in the process of watching those 5 games in 2004 finals again, thanks for your concern.

[HurricaneKid]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm not one Kobe's side on this series. There is nothing to defend about Kobe in this series at all. That's all I am saying.

I am actually in the process of watching those 5 games in 2004 finals again, thanks for your concern.

In post 3 of the thread I said I could forgive a bad series against a good defensive team. What I couldn't accept is a young player who puts himself before the team and declared with his actions that its more important that he be the man than that they win.

Enjoy. Its akin to watching a small child throw a tantrum in the middle of a department store.

[eliteballer]

:facepalm ISHiot

The 2 biggest blowouts of that series were when Kobe took the least amount of shots. He missed so many easy shots in that series because he was gassed from carrying LA in the playoffs while being out of condition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkxOW8GsbvU

^The shots Kobe is making there are tougher than the ones he was missing in the Finals.

Shaq got gassed in the 2nd half of the games.

and the Lakers still fed him in the beginning of every game, but he got gassed because LA had no other scorers besides Kobe.

[Cali Syndicate]

i remember jordan played like crap in that 96 finals against seattle also.

I think the OP's point is that Kobe was taking away from Shaq's production. What you brought up has no relevance because in Jordan's case he was still the best player on the Bulls by far. It wasn't like Pippen was playing great either.

IMO, Kobe was definitely trying to be the man this time around. There was obvious animosity between the two players and Kobe just wanted to win so he could prove the naysayers wrong, that he was just as valuable. The funny part is, most fans already knew how vital he was to their success. He really didn't need to prove anything. The way I see it, if he would have just waited his turn and somehow Shaq and Phil stayed in LA, Kobe would have eventually won his MVP awards. Had that happened, who knows what kind of success they would have accomplished. We are talking about quite possibly the greatest duo ever. Too bad it didn't turn out that way. And watching those 04 finals, no one can say Kobe wasn't forcing shots because he was. And with a player like Shaq, even as out of shape as he was, was still a dominant force on the court and Kobe should have deferred when it was apparent his own wasn't cutting it. They needed some efficiency out there especially with everyone else playing like crap too.

And BTW the numbers Jordan put up in the 96 finals is similar to what Kobe has averaged in the finals for his entire career....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And BTW the numbers Jordan put up in the 96 finals is similar to what Kobe has averaged in the finals for his entire career....

As you would expect since the 96 sonics were about an average finals opponent defensively for Kobe :confusedshrug:

[SunsCaptain]

Its funny that people will come in here and say, "its a bad performance it happens to everyone" Then turn around and criticize LeBron who put up really good numbers despite his 4th quarter play. Something like 19/7/7 on 48%? I don't care who put those numbers up....those are solid numbers...

I enjoyed the heat losing I made fun of LeBron for a bit...But if you are still making fun of LeBron you are just trolling. The window has closed.

[PTB Fan]

You can't defend it.

Shaq was absolutely dominating the top defense and defender in the league with ease.. but Kobe played bad and he was the main reason why they lost.

[rodman91]

I think the OP's point is that Kobe was taking away from Shaq's production. What you brought up has no relevance because in Jordan's case he was still the best player on the Bulls by far. It wasn't like Pippen was playing great either.

IMO, Kobe was definitely trying to be the man this time around. There was obvious animosity between the two players and Kobe just wanted to win so he could prove the naysayers wrong, that he was just as valuable. The funny part is, most fans already knew how vital he was to their success. He really didn't need to prove anything. The way I see it, if he would have just waited his turn and somehow Shaq and Phil stayed in LA, Kobe would have eventually won his MVP awards. Had that happened, who knows what kind of success they would have accomplished. We are talking about quite possibly the greatest duo ever. Too bad it didn't turn out that way. And watching those 04 finals, no one can say Kobe wasn't forcing shots because he was. And with a player like Shaq, even as out of shape as he was, was still a dominant force on the court and Kobe should have deferred when it was apparent his own wasn't cutting it. They needed some efficiency out there especially with everyone else playing like crap too.

And BTW the numbers Jordan put up in the 96 finals is similar to what Kobe has averaged in the finals for his entire career....

http://www.profilebrand.com/funny-pictures/category/demotivational/110_chess-overkill.gif

:applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.profilebrand.com/funny-pictures/category/demotivational/110_chess-overkill.gif

:applause:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_liyzxyxTrD1qcygui.jpg

[NumberSix]

2) You don't know the rules of basketball. If you are fouled in the act of shooting, if you miss the shot, it does not count as a missed shot attempt
Yes, those are the CURRENT rules. That's a relatively new rule though. It just goes to show how amazing it is that Michael Jordan could average 54% even with fouled shot attempts counting as missed shots.

[chazzy]

Yes, those are the CURRENT rules. That's a relatively new rule though. It just goes to show how amazing it is that Michael Jordan could average 54% even with fouled shot attempts counting as missed shots.
That's not true

[HurricaneKid]

Yes, those are the CURRENT rules. That's a relatively new rule though. It just goes to show how amazing it is that Michael Jordan could average 54% even with fouled shot attempts counting as missed shots.

I'd call you an idiot but the idiots would be offended.

[LA_Showtime]

Well....

Lemme get back to you?

[madmax]

Yes, those are the CURRENT rules. That's a relatively new rule though. It just goes to show how amazing it is that Michael Jordan could average 54% even with fouled shot attempts counting as missed shots.

LOL...did you watch any of the 90's basketball?:lol

[32Dayz]

Shaq :

vs. Detroit in 04

Game 4 Finalz : 36points / 20rebounds .762% shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNwbSgKZuE

[NumberSix]

LOL...did you watch any of the 90's basketball?:lol
Yes.

[Jacks3]

1. The Lakers lost by a average margin of 15 PPG.
2. The rest of the team outside Shaq shot 33%. This was on wide-open shots, too.
3. He was playing one of the 5 best defenses ever, and perhaps the best defense ever after the Rasheed Wallace trade.
4. He wasn't close to 100% physically i.e having to take IV's at half-time every game.
5. The biggest blow-out loss by far came in the game where he only took 13 shots.
6. He was forced to spend extended time on both Rip and Billups as Payton and Fisher were both getting destroyed.

Overall, it was just a terrible situation. LeBron's 2011 performance was far worse...

[Micku]

I would have to rewatch the series again. Kobe just couldn't make it work. Took too many shots, and didn't convert. But everyone except for Shaq played pretty crappy. They probably should've given the ball to him more, but it might not matter anyway.

The Lakers were arrogant until the end. It was a huge sting to any Laker fan because the Lakers weren't even worried about the Pistons after they took out the Spurs and Timberwolves.

[D-Wade316]

There's nothing to defend. He played poorly in that series.

[Force]

Kobe was garbage that series and did not play with the team in mind. He forced too much. Prince locked him down and Kobe tried to shoot himself out of the bad streak of missing everything, but he couldn't.

[Force]

The shooting % rule changed sometime in the 80's. I don't remember exactly but I was young enough to be watching a lot of NBA at the time. It's true that if you got fouled and missed your shot attempt, that your official stats would be 0-1 from the field. "Continuation" was a major rule change in the league. Once it started everyone just threw the ball at the hoop or flailed their arms when they heard a whistle. Magic Johnson was incredible at this.