Jordan(91-93) vs. Shaq(00-02) [in NBA Finals]

[Odinn]

Jordan
vs. Lakers in 1991 Finals; 31.2/6.6/11.4/2.8/1.4 on 55.8 fg%
vs. Blazers in 1992 Finals; 35.8/4.8/6.5/1.7/0.3 on 52.6 fg%
vs. Suns in 1993 Finals; 41.0/8.5/6.3/1.7/0.7 on 50.8 fg%

Combined; 36.3ppg / 6.6rpg / 7.9apg / 2.0spg / 0.8bpg / 3.4tpg / 52.6fg% / 80.5ft%


Shaq
vs. Pacers in 2000 Finals; 38.0/16.7/2.3/1.0/2.7 on 61.1 fg%
vs. Sixers in 2001 Finals; 33.0/15.8/4.8/0.4/3.4 on 57.3 fg%
vs. Nets in 2002 Finals; 36.3/12.3/3.8/0.5/2.8 on 59.5 fg%

Combined; 35.9ppg / 15.2rpg / 3.5apg / 0.7spg / 2.9bpg / 3.1tpg / 59.5fg% / 50.6ft%



What do you think about them?

[Doranku]

I'd say Shaq's numbers are slightly more impressive, but Jordan's were against much better teams so I'd give Jordan the nod.

Both of their numbers are insane though, and to do them in three consecutive years while threepeating is just :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[32Dayz]

Two of the greatest Finalz performers ever.

I dont think opponents means much since Shaq beasted twice in the Finals against Hakeem and Mutombo two for the best defensive C's ever.

No one could stop Shaq from 00-02.

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.mynigeriandwarfgoats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nigerian-dwarf-goat-juliesjungle-2795-20090409-331.jpg

[jlauber]

I have long claimed Shaq's three-peat Finals as the most dominant Finals in NBA history.

I won't argue with those that give MJ an edge, though.

[PTB Fan]

http://www.mynigeriandwarfgoats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nigerian-dwarf-goat-juliesjungle-2795-20090409-331.jpg

:roll: :bowdown:

Repped

[PTB Fan]

I'm biased and i will say Shaq.

Yes, i'm a Shaq fan.

[Harison]

http://www.mynigeriandwarfgoats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nigerian-dwarf-goat-juliesjungle-2795-20090409-331.jpg
:applause:

[Sarcastic]

I'd say Shaq's numbers are slightly more impressive, but Jordan's were against much better teams so I'd give Jordan the nod.

Both of their numbers are insane though, and to do them in three consecutive years while threepeating is just :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

+1

[Odinn]

I'd say Shaq's numbers are slightly more impressive, but Jordan's were against much better teams so I'd give Jordan the nod.

Both of their numbers are insane though, and to do them in three consecutive years while threepeating is just :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Completely agree with the bolded part.:cheers:

But Shaq was pure domination.:bowdown:

[Duncan21formvp]

I think Jordan's was more impressive. Not only did he put up those stats but did so against the guys who finished #2, #2 and #1 in MVP voting those years with the last year being without having HCA. Not only that but he was able to set the playoff record in scoring for a finals.

I believe Jordan wins this because:

1. Had the higher PER in the season, playoffs and finals
2. Had the higher win shares in the season and playoffs

MJ in the season = 20.30 Win Shares. Shaq = 18.65
MJ in the season = 31.63 PER, Shaq = 30.65


MJ in the playoffs = 4.77 Win Share, Shaq = 4.67
MJ in the playoffs = 32.04 PER, Shaq = 30.45


MJ in the finals = 31.5 PER and Shaq = 31.1


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-7
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-8

[jlauber]

I think Jordan's was more impressive. Not only did he put up those stats but did so against the guys who finished #2, #2 and #1 in MVP voting those years with the last year being without having HCA. Not only that but he was able to set the playoff record in scoring for a finals.

I believe Jordan wins this because:

1. Had the higher PER in the season, playoffs and finals
2. Had the higher win shares in the season and playoffs

MJ in the season = 20.30 Win Shares. Shaq = 18.65
MJ in the season = 31.63 PER, Shaq = 30.65


MJ in the playoffs = 4.77 Win Share, Shaq = 4.67
MJ in the playoffs = 32.04 PER, Shaq = 30.45


MJ in the finals = 31.5 PER and Shaq = 31.1


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-7
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-8

Very close though.

[Duncan21formvp]

Very close though.
No doubt about it.

[32Dayz]

I love Jordan and I have him #1 on my GOAT list but I would take 00-02 Shaq over 91-93 Jordan.

Shaq was just so unstoppable those years. Some games he had specifically in 00 and 01 just made me shake my head.
Dude could literally drop 40/20/5/5 on any given night.

Not to mention he was playing legit DPOY Defense those years.

I dont think Jordan was more unstoppable 0ffensively or as impactful defensively as 00-02 Shaq.

Is that wrong of me to think?

I also dont think there was a player in the history of the game who was defended as heavily as 00-02 Shaq and Jordan even in those 3 years doesn't come close (in that aspect).

Jordan had his own unique intangibles which is why this was close but I just think Shaq was more "unstoppable"

You could double even triple team him and still if he wanted to he would score or draw the foul.

[rodman91]

Both Goat performers. I give edge to Jordan for these reasons.

1.Lakers,Blazers,Suns were better than Pacers,Sixers,Nets.

2.Except 35 years old Mutombo,those teams didn't have anybody against Shaq inside.It's easier for 7'1 330 pounds to get those numbers with high % than a guard.Still incredible though.

3.It's impressive statement from Jordan to put 11.4 apg against Magic.I like that :D

[OldSchoolBBall]

Very close. The two greatest performers in Finals history imo. I give Jordan's three-peat the edge because he did it against better competition (legends like Magic, Drexler, and Barkley vs. Jalen Rose, AI, and Kidd), had to exert himself defensively more in said Finals (guarding Magic and Drexler in consecutive Finals), and was also the go-to guy down the stretch of every game, whereas Kobe tended to be that guy for the Lakers. Statistically it's very close, but MJ's ability to close out games, greater ability to raise his game on command when needed, and intangibles make me give him the edge.

[32Dayz]

whereas Kobe tended to be that guy for the Lakers. Statistically it's very close, but MJ's ability to close out games, greater ability to raise his game on command when needed, and intangibles make me give him the edge.

No he wasn't, and he certainly wasn't ever "that guy" in the Finalz.
I see no evidence to say Jordan was better at raising his game on command.
Shaq raised his game for the entire playoffs "on command" and never lowered it especially in the Finalz where he played his best.
Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.

I dont think his competition was that much better when you put it in that sort of perspective.

H2H Shaq went against Mutombo and the #1 Defensive team in the Sixers.
H2H Shaq proved himself against Hakeem, DRob/Duncan, Mourning, Wallace Twins and on and on.
He was also defended with 2, 3 sometimes even 4 or 5 players.
Jordan was never defended as heavily as Shaq was those seasons.
I think using the opponents as a reason to say Jordan was better is silly because Shaq proved he could dominate against pretty much any opponent or any team.

[rodman91]

Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.


Magic was 31 years old.Finished that season as good as his career numbers. 20-13-7 season.

Drexler was only one years old older than Jordan. He had 25-7-7 season that year.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I see no evidence to say Jordan was better at raising his game on command.

If you think that Shaq could raise his game on command as easily or frequently as Jordan, you're crazy. Jordan would routinely score 15-20+ points in the 4th (and sometimes in the final 6-8 minutes) to pull out wins. Shaq was incredible, but MJ was better IN THAT RESPECT. Jordan's very POSITION allows him to be a more dynamic and unstoppable player late in games (to say nothing of his FT% edge).


Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.


Magic was 31 - hardly old. He also finished 2nd in MVP voting that year. Drexler was 29, had finished second in MVP voting, and had one of his top 2 seasons that year. Past his prime? No.


I dont think his competition was that much better when you put it in that sort of perspective.

Not only was Jordan's INDIVIDUAL comp better than what Shaq saw in the '00-'02 Finals -- Magic, Drexler, Majerle/KJ (these were the guys he primarily guarded during that three-peat) versus a last-legs Rik Smits at age 33 (he retired after that season), Mutombo, and McCullough -- but the quality of the Lakers/Blazers/Suns was WORLDS beyond the Pacers/Sixers/Nets. Night and day. So yeah, his competition was significantly better. Jordan beat legends and guarded legends. Shaq? Not so much.


He was also defended with 2, 3 sometimes even 4 or 5 players.
Jordan was never defended as heavily as Shaq was those seasons.
I think using the opponents as a reason to say Jordan was better is silly because Shaq proved he could dominate against pretty much any opponent or any team.

I never denied that Shaq could and did dominate most teams, but we have to look at what's in front of us. And if you think Jordan was never guarded that heavily, you should rewatch the 1991 Finals and pay special attention to how 3 players would collapse every time Jordan even attempted to come within 15-16 feet of the basket, and how the entire team watched him. That said, I wouldn't argue with the statement that Shaq was defended more heavily, but that's also offset by the fact that he never had to take a shot outside of 10 feet, making it easier to dominate.

[Fatal9]

lol @ Drexler in his best season being "past his prime". not sure if serious.

[32Dayz]

Fair enough I was wrong about the competition.

I knew Drexler was still good but I didnt think he was in his Prime and I said Charles was a very strong opponent.

Either way I stand by my opinion that Shaq has proved himself against the toughest opponents and when you consider how much defensive attention he had to deal with it wasnt any easier for him to Dominate then it was for Jordan.

Mutombo was the DPOY and one of the best defensive C's ever and Shaq reduced him to a skid mark.

[Odinn]

I think Jordan's was more impressive. Not only did he put up those stats but did so against the guys who finished #2, #2 and #1 in MVP voting those years with the last year being without having HCA. Not only that but he was able to set the playoff record in scoring for a finals.

I believe Jordan wins this because:

1. Had the higher PER in the season, playoffs and finals
2. Had the higher win shares in the season and playoffs

MJ in the season = 20.30 Win Shares. Shaq = 18.65
MJ in the season = 31.63 PER, Shaq = 30.65


MJ in the playoffs = 4.77 Win Share, Shaq = 4.67
MJ in the playoffs = 32.04 PER, Shaq = 30.45


MJ in the finals = 31.5 PER and Shaq = 31.1
You showed up again with some crap which called advanced stat?:roll:

PER claims Jordan's production in 1998 Finals was almost as good as in 1991 Finals, which wasn't.:facepalm

Lastly; in 2001 mvp race Shaq was 3rd and he defeated Allen Iverson&Tim Duncan which were top2 in that race. And same goes for 2002. Tim Duncan and Jason Kidd were ahead of Shaq in mvp race and Shaq defeated both of the top2, again.

You can say Jordan faced better competition in the finals but your first paragraph, again; :facepalm :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's really tough to choose. I might go with Jordan, but both sides have arguments.

Jordan did have to guard much tougher opponents and faced much better teams(though he had better overall casts outside of probably 2001 with how Shaq's cast was playing that run).

Shaq was doubled more, though and had less support in the 2000 finals than Jordan did in any of his due to how much the Lakers themselves relied on 2 players, the fact that 2000 Kobe wasn't quite as good as '91-'93 Pippen and that Kobe was injured essentially missing 2 games and not playing well outside of game 4.

Shaq also faced better defensive teams, particularly the '01 Sixers, but there is a difference between facing teams led by Magic, Drexler and Barkley 3 consecutive seasons(particularly Magic and Barkley) and Miller, Iverson and Kidd.

In the end, they ended up with similar statistical feats, but Jordan never faced a team anywhere near as overmatched as the '02 Nets in the finals. Part of it is personal preference I guess regarding perimeter players vs big men.



Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.

Why do you even bother commenting on this if you proved you have no idea what you're talking about? Drexler had his best season in '92 and Magic had at worst, his 5th best season in '91 and was a better, more complete player than when he won his first 3 rings, which is when he made a lot of his legacy.



If you think that Shaq could raise his game on command as easily or frequently as Jordan, you're crazy. Jordan would routinely score 15-20+ points in the 4th (and sometimes in the final 6-8 minutes) to pull out wins.

This is 100% true, though it is worth pointing out that Shaq averaged 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarters during the 2000 finals. Game 1 in particular impressed me as he turned a 6 point game to start the quarter to a 15 point game with 3 minutes remaining by scoring 12 points and creating quite a few shots during that time before sitting down after the game became a blowout.

Your point still stands, just pointing out that 11.5 ppg average for 4th quarters in a finals is pretty impressive for anyone, much less a center like Shaq.


versus a last-legs Rik Smits at age 33 (he retired after that season)

Actually, he primarily matched up with Dale Davis that series.

[32Dayz]

Why do you even bother commenting on this if you proved you have no idea what you're talking about? Drexler had his best season in '92 and Magic had at worst, his 5th best season in '91 and was a better, more complete player than when he won his first 3 rings, which is when he made a lot of his legacy.


Read the whole thread before jumping to conclusions.

I already admitted I made a mistake when I said that.

Anyway you made some good points in your last post so i'll leave it be.

[32Dayz]

Shaq averaged 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarters during the 2000 finals. Game 1 in particular impressed me as he turned a 6 point game to start the quarter to a 15 point game with 3 minutes remaining by scoring 12 points and creating quite a few shots during that time before sitting down after the game became a blowout.

Your point still stands, just pointing out that 11.5 ppg average for 4th quarters in a finals is pretty impressive for anyone, much less a center like Shaq.


Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3

[Lebron23]

Jordan and Shaq are the 2 greatest Finals performer ever. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[arifgokcen]

I haven't seen a player doubled tripled quadrupled as much as shaq.Even though i would pick jordan because of his ability to perform in crunch time,i think what shaq did is a lot more impressive.He consistently scored on at least two and a lot of time three players.

To understand how dominant shaq was during his prime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjyelpOQ0Z8

[Odinn]

Jordan and Shaq are the 2 greatest Finals performer ever. :applause: :applause: :applause:
Shaq's NBA Finals averages (6 appearances - 30 games);
28.8 ppg / 13.1 rpg / 3.4 apg / 2.1 bpg / 0.5 spg / 3.4 tpg
60.2% fg / 48.4% ft

Shaq's NBA Finals averages as a Laker (4 appearances - 20 games);
33.6 ppg / 14.1 rpg / 3.1 apg / 2.4 bpg / 0.6 spg / 3.1 tpg
60.2% fg / 50.3% ft


Jordan's NBA Finals averages (6 appearances - 35 games);
33.6 ppg / 6.0 rpg / 6.0 apg / 1.8 spg / 0.7 bpg / 2.8 tpg
48.1% fg / 80.6% ft

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan had comparable/superior production, but did it against much better teams, and did it to teams which had top 25 players on it (Magic, Barkley, Drexler); on top of that, he played sterling defense on legends in Magic and Drexler and exerted way more energy than Shaq on that end. He also obviously has the edge in terms of the ability to close out games and to raise his game on command. How would MJ's offensive numbers look if he wasn't guarding Magic or Drexler or being EVERYWHERE on defense in the 1991 finals?

Jordan in the 1991 Finals could have posted even better averages than he did - and it's already perhaps the greatest Finals series of all time. Think about that. Jordan played so under control that series, and didn't dominate the ball at all. Ditto for 1992, where he actually sat out for nearly 7 minutes of the first half during his first half 35-point barrage - dude could have had 43+ points that half easily.

Jordan has at least a slight edge over Shaq here.

[IGOTGAME]

Watching Shaq growing up, I didn't really find the majority of his finals performances impressive due to the competition. Imo, the teams he played against in the Finals were so weak that I judged him more so on how he played against San Antonio and Sacramento. The Finals were won in the Western Conference, playing the East was just a formality(there was really no point in watching some of Nets series)

[rhythmic]

Shaquille.
No disrespecting Jordan, but I feel like that stretch by Shaq is the greatest of any basketball player I have ever seen. He was getting it done so effortlessly. You also have to consider that Shaq had to share the ball with Kobe, another superstar who needed his light. More-so then Pippen did; both in usage rating & shot attempts. Of course Jordan was a hell of a lot more clutch so if someone picked him, I wouldn't argue with that decision.

Certainly a valid one to make.

[N0Skillz]

I'm giving it to Shaq


36/15/4/2 on 60%

[TheMan]

Jordan killed a long established NBA standard that you needed a dominant C to win a championship, he won six titles with Cartwright and Longley, based on that alone I give the edge to MJ.

I would also add that MJ and the Bulls destroyed Shaq and Penny's Magic team in 95-96 ECF 4-0, and basically ran off Shaq to the western conference. :D

Shaq was smart enough to realize he wasn't winning shiit in the EC.

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/z%20Shaquille%20Oneal/mjjamsovershaq.gif

[Bigsmoke]

41.0/8.5/6.3/1.7/0.7 on 50.8 fg%

Shaq cant **** with those numbers.

[Odinn]

41.0/8.5/6.3/1.7/0.7 on 50.8 fg%
Shaq cant **** with those numbers.


38.0/16.7/2.3/1.0/2.7 on 61.1 fg%

Was not that enough for you?:facepalm

[Whoah10115]

Jordan by far. And I'm not gonna sit here and hate too much on Shaq for things I think he got away with, but Jordan in a landslide. I take all of those teams he played over the teams Shaq played. And even with that in mind, Jordan was better. He simply did more. His performance against the Suns is his greatest ever.

[inclinerator]

shaq basically has everything on mj except the final 2 minutes of the game and fts

[Yao Ming's Foot]

By Defensive Rating...

Jordan

91 Lakers 105.0
92 Blazers 104.2
93 Suns 106. 7


Shaq

2000 Pacers 103.6
2001 76ers 98.9
2002 Nets 99.5

and people really cling to the myth that Jordan faced tougher teams?

:oldlol:

[bwink23]

I'd have to go with Shaq being more dominant, but i think the all-around performances go to Jordan.

[Whoah10115]

shaq basically has everything on mj except the final 2 minutes of the game and fts


And defense, and passing, and playmaking, and intangibles, and everything else.



It's not to disrespect Shaq, because there are plenty of respectable people giving valid opinions on him and even choosing him, but it's not even close. There's a reason Michael Jordan is the best player of all-time. I don't like Shaq, so I'll admit that now. But either way, Jordan was the better player in every regard and especially in the finals. Raw numbers won't tell the story.

[Odinn]

And defense, and passing, and playmaking, and intangibles, and everything else.



It's not to disrespect Shaq, because there are plenty of respectable people giving valid opinions on him and even choosing him, but it's not even close. There's a reason Michael Jordan is the best player of all-time. I don't like Shaq, so I'll admit that now. But either way, Jordan was the better player in every regard and especially in the finals. Raw numbers won't tell the story.
Just leave my thread.:facepalm

[Bigsmoke]

By Defensive Rating...

Jordan

91 Lakers 105.0
92 Blazers 104.2
93 Suns 106. 7


Shaq

2000 Pacers 103.6
2001 76ers 98.9
2002 Nets 99.5

and people really cling to the myth that Jordan faced tougher teams?

:oldlol:

lol all 3 of those teams were better than the Pacers, 76ers, and Nets. i dont even think the Nets would have made it out of the first round in 1993 :lol

The Nets did play great defense but nobody that could defend the paint.

[Odinn]

By Defensive Rating...

Jordan

91 Lakers 105.0
92 Blazers 104.2
93 Suns 106. 7


Shaq

2000 Pacers 103.6
2001 76ers 98.9
2002 Nets 99.5

and people really cling to the myth that Jordan faced tougher teams?

:oldlol:
2003 Nets DRtg: 98.1
1989 Pistons DRtg: 104.7

You Kobe-tard will always try to discredit Jordan. Right?..

[bwink23]

By Defensive Rating...

Jordan

91 Lakers 105.0
92 Blazers 104.2
93 Suns 106. 7


Shaq

2000 Pacers 103.6
2001 76ers 98.9
2002 Nets 99.5

and people really cling to the myth that Jordan faced tougher teams?

:oldlol:


Great offense beats great defense....you gonna tell me any of those teams were better offensively than the ones Jordan faced in the Finals ??

[jlip]

Shaq by a slight margin.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Shaq cant **** with those numbers.

Jordan's 1991 Finals was his best imo: 31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/56% FG/62% TS plus unbelievable defensive impact. I would put that right there with, or slightly above, Shaq's 38.0 pts/16.7 reb/2.3 ast/2.7 blk/61% FG/58% TS.

Shaq's 2001 (33/16/4+) and MJ's 1993 Finals (41/9/6+) are also roughly equivalent.

[Whoah10115]

Just leave my thread.:facepalm


Sorry buddy, Jordan is way ahead of Shaq.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Great offense beats great defense....you gonna tell me any of those teams were better offensively than the ones Jordan faced in the Finals ??

Aren't we comparing the offensive numbers of Shaq vs Jordan? Who cares about how good their opponents offense was? It doesn't have any impact on their offensive statistics. The only thing that matters is defense.

[bwink23]

Aren't we comparing the offensive numbers of Shaq vs Jordan? Who cares about how good their opponents offense was? It doesn't have any impact on their offensive statistics. The only thing that matters is defense.


Like i said, great offense beats great defense...your the one who brought up "defensive ratings." --- Isn't that the same Nets defense Jordan scored 2, 40+ point games against when he was with the Wizards ??

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Like i said, great offense beats great defense...your the one who brought up "defensive ratings." --- Isn't that the same Nets defense Jordan scored 2, 40+ point games against when he was with the Wizards ??

No he did it once, he also had a terrible game against them and an average one.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200202210WAS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200201160NJN.html

Shaq played against great defenses, Jordan against mediocre ones.

Shaq's numbers are more impressive.

[Nevaeh]

Great offense beats great defense....you gonna tell me any of those teams were better offensively than the ones Jordan faced in the Finals ??

That's an interesting point. What were the Offensive Ratings of opposing teams during Shaq and MJ's 3-peats?

[bwink23]

No he did it once, he also had a terrible game against them and an average one.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200202210WAS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200201160NJN.html

Shaq played against great defenses, Jordan against mediocre ones.

Shaq's numbers are more impressive.


No he did it TWICE...once in 2002 and the other in 2003....and he had another one against them in the preseason of 2001...but HEY, who's counting...:D


12-31-2001....Jordan 45 points vs. Nets.
2-21-2003....Jordan 43 points vs. Nets.

And a 41-point pre-season game as well.


43 points vs. Nets....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMU8fSwu5yo

45 points vs. Nets...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes

41 points vs. Nets...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bSZSwWqum8

This one is the preseason game.....just keeping the information RIGHT dude...:banghead:

[Odinn]

That's an interesting point. What were the Offensive Ratings of opposing teams during Shaq and MJ's 3-peats?
2000 Pacers;
RS; ORtg: 108.5 (led the L) - DRtg: 103.6 - Difference: 4.9
PO; ORtg: 109.7 (only 2nd to Lakers) - DRtg: 106.8 - Difference: 2.9

2001 Sixers;
RS; ORtg: 103.6 - DRtg: 98.9 - Difference: 4.7
PO; ORtg: 105.7 - DRtg: 105.8 - Difference: -0.1

2002 Nets;
RS; ORtg: 104.0 - DRtg: 99.5(led the L) - Difference: 4.5
PO; ORtg: 102.3 - DRtg: 102.3 - Difference: 0.0

---

1991 Lakers;
RS; ORtg: 112.1 - DRtg: 105.0 - Difference: 7.1
PO; ORtg: 111.7 - DRtg: 110.6 - Difference: 1.1

1992 Blazers;
RS; ORtg: 111.4 - DRtg: 104.2 - Difference: 7.2
PO; ORtg: 113.6 - DRtg: 110.1 - Difference: 3.5

1993 Suns;
RS; ORtg: 113.3(led the L) - DRtg: 106.7 - Difference: 6.6
PO; ORtg: 111.0 - DRtg: 110.2 - Difference: 0.8

---

In 2000 Pacers led the L in ORtg with 108.5 and in 1991 Lakers were 5th at ORtg with 112.1, also in 1992 Blazers were 7th at ORtg with 111.4...

[Nevaeh]

Thanks Odinn :cheers:

[bwink23]

2000 Pacers;
RS; ORtg: 108.5 (led the L) - DRtg: 103.6 - Difference: 4.9
PO; ORtg: 109.7 (only 2nd to Lakers) - DRtg: 106.8 - Difference: 2.9

2001 Sixers;
RS; ORtg: 103.6 - DRtg: 98.9 - Difference: 4.7
PO; ORtg: 105.7 - DRtg: 105.8 - Difference: -0.1

2002 Nets;
RS; ORtg: 104.0 - DRtg: 99.5(led the L) - Difference: 4.5
PO; ORtg: 102.3 - DRtg: 102.3 - Difference: 0.0

---

1991 Lakers;
RS; ORtg: 112.1 - DRtg: 105.0 - Difference: 7.1
PO; ORtg: 111.7 - DRtg: 110.6 - Difference: 1.1

1992 Blazers;
RS; ORtg: 111.4 - DRtg: 104.2 - Difference: 7.2
PO; ORtg: 113.6 - DRtg: 110.1 - Difference: 3.5

1993 Suns;
RS; ORtg: 113.3(led the L) - DRtg: 106.7 - Difference: 6.6
PO; ORtg: 111.0 - DRtg: 110.2 - Difference: 0.8

---

In 2000 Pacers led the L in ORtg with 108.5 and in 1991 Lakers were 5th at ORtg with 112.1, also in 1992 Blazers were 7th at ORtg with 111.4...


So basically the higher the Offensive/Defensive differential the BETTER, am correct about that right??


That being the case....

Pacers, Sixers, Nets differential in the playoffs = 2.9, -0.1, 0.

Lakers, Blazers, Suns = 1.1, 3.5, 0.8.


Pacers, Sixers, Nets differential regular season = 4.9, 4.7, 4.5.

Lakers, Blazers, Suns = 7.1, 7.2, 6.6.


I'd say Jordan's Bulls had better competition based on those numbers.

:applause: :applause:

[cteach111]

hmm, i dont think you need stats to know that the sixers and nets were a shoe-in for a curbstomping in the Finals. The Pacers were pretty good though.

[andgar923]

Free throws.

[Odinn]

hmm, i dont think you need stats to know that the sixers and nets were a shoe-in for a curbstomping in the Finals. The Pacers were pretty good though.
You're right. Jordan's competition was better than Shaq's one. But as for matchups, Shaq's matchups were not that worse than Jordan's matchups. Pacers froncourt was decent. Also Mutombo generally did pretty good job against Shaq, and in 2001 Finals Shaq absouletly destroyed him.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You're right. Jordan's competition was better than Shaq's one. But as for matchups, Shaq's matchups were not that worse than Jordan's matchups. Pacers froncourt was decent. Also Mutombo generally did pretty good job against Shaq, and in 2001 Finals Shaq absouletly destroyed him.

So going directly against prime Magic/Drexler and Majerle/KJ as your defensive assignments is the same as going against Perkins/Davis, Mutombo, and McCullough? No.

[Odinn]

So going directly against prime Magic/Drexler and Majerle/KJ as your defensive assignments is the same as going against Perkins/Davis, Mutombo, and McCullough? No.
I didn't say the same. Jordan's matchups was tougher than Shaq's matchups but;

Quality difference between 91-93 and 00-02 runner-up teams >>> Quailty difference between matchups..

[OldSchoolBBall]

I didn't say the same. Jordan's matchups was tougher than Shaq's matchups but;

Quality difference between 91-93 and 00-02 runner-up teams >>> Quailty difference between matchups..

It's true that the '91 Lakers/'92 Blazers/'93 Suns were better than the '00 Pacers/'01 Sixers/'02 Nets to a greater degree than Jordan's matchups were better than Shaq's matchups, but in both cases the difference is HUGE. It's not just that MJ's matchups were > than Shaq's, it's that they were >>> than Shaq's.

[Kobr]

Like i said, great offense beats great defense...your the one who brought up "defensive ratings." --- Isn't that the same Nets defense Jordan scored 2, 40+ point games against when he was with the Wizards ??

http://i.imgur.com/thqQv.jpg

[Whoah10115]

You're right. Jordan's competition was better than Shaq's one. But as for matchups, Shaq's matchups were not that worse than Jordan's matchups. Pacers froncourt was decent. Also Mutombo generally did pretty good job against Shaq, and in 2001 Finals Shaq absouletly destroyed him.


That's why that performance was his best...it helps that Dikembe, by then, could not doing anything on the offensive end. And with AI being by himself, he only had to fully worry about one side of the court. Remarkable performance, but Jordan is Jordan for a reason.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No he did it TWICE...once in 2002 and the other in 2003....and he had another one against them in the preseason of 2001...but HEY, who's counting...:D


12-31-2001....Jordan 45 points vs. Nets.
2-21-2003....Jordan 43 points vs. Nets.

And a 41-point pre-season game as well.


43 points vs. Nets....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMU8fSwu5yo

45 points vs. Nets...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes

41 points vs. Nets...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bSZSwWqum8

This one is the preseason game.....just keeping the information RIGHT dude...:banghead:

Shaq didn't face the Nets in the finals in 2003 or 2001. :confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Shaq didn't face the Nets in the finals in 2003 or 2001. :confusedshrug:


IRRELEVANT....the 41 and 45 point games against the Nets were in the SAME SEASON, the same year the Nets went to the Finals with the NBA's best defensive rating.

The other 43 point game was against the near SAME NETS TEAM that still had the NBA's best defensive rating and went to the NBA Finals....:rolleyes:

Keep trying.

[Da_Realist]

Free throws.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006090LAL.html

^^ :eek:

Shaq had a game where he missed 21 free throws and still put up 40 points and 24 rebounds. That's crazy.

[eliteballer]

So going directly against prime Magic/Drexler and Majerle/KJ as your defensive assignments is the same as going against Perkins/Davis, Mutombo, and McCullough? No.

LOL..........you're going to compare an injured Byron Scott, and arguably the worst defensive team to ever make the Finals in the Suns, to a DPOY in Mutombo? Lets not even talk about pace or era.....

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL..........you're going to compare an injured Byron Scott, and arguably the worst defensive team to ever make the Finals in the Suns, to a DPOY in Mutombo? Lets not even talk about pace or era.....

Right, troll. A 35 year old Jordan averaged 32/6/4/48% FG against the 1998 Pacers, which were a younger, better version of the 2000 Pacers that Shaq faced. What does 1991-1993 MJ do to the 2000 Pacers? 36/7/7/53% FG isn't out of the question.

[aj242]

LOL..........you're going to compare an injured Byron Scott, and arguably the worst defensive team to ever make the Finals in the Suns, to a DPOY in Mutombo? Lets not even talk about pace or era.....

I am going to go with Jordan & Shaq is my favorite player of all time. However Dale Davis was a credible & strong defender against any post player in the NBA at the time. Except for Shaq. I'm not sure Smits guarded Shaq 5 possesions.

It was a Davis/Perkins/double team thing the entire series & Shaq whored them!
He made Dale Davis a 6'10 265lb pound muscle man look a like child.

That really is my lasting image of that 2000 finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

IRRELEVANT....the 41 and 45 point games against the Nets were in the SAME SEASON, the same year the Nets went to the Finals with the NBA's best defensive rating.

The other 43 point game was against the near SAME NETS TEAM that still had the NBA's best defensive rating and went to the NBA Finals....:rolleyes:

Keep trying.

That's simply not true. Apparently you are counting the stats from some unlisted preseason game which is pretty hilarious on its face. The Nets played the Wizards four times. He played great one game, didn't play another, was ok and then terrible. :confusedshrug:

The next year he terrible in two games, ok in one and great in a fourth game. That all matters you can't cherry pick 2 games out of 8 and then add in some preseason game and pretend you are making a point. What about all of the other games?????

Shaq didn't just have a great game 25% of the time. He had 4 great games in a row.

[bwink23]

That's simply not true. Apparently you are counting the stats from some unlisted preseason game which is pretty hilarious on its face. The Nets played the Wizards four times. He played great one game, didn't play another, was ok and then terrible. :confusedshrug:

The next year he terrible in two games, ok in one and great in a fourth game. That all matters you can't cherry pick 2 games out of 8 and then add in some preseason game and pretend you are making a point. What about all of the other games?????

Shaq didn't just have a great game 25% of the time. He had 4 great games in a row.


There was nothing FALSE about anything i posted, the links are there as proof...point is, if an old, broke-ass Jordan can score 40+ 3 different times against them...their defensively abilities get a little tainted.

[Boston C's]

There was nothing FALSE about anything i posted, the links are there as proof...point is, if an old, broke-ass Jordan can score 40+ 3 different times against them...their defensively abilities get a little tainted.

lmao at that kobetard yao mings foot getting owned again

dont be mad that your boy kobe wont ever be as good as jordan :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There was nothing FALSE about anything i posted, the links are there as proof...point is, if an old, broke-ass Jordan can score 40+ 3 different times against them...their defensively abilities get a little tainted.

And when they hold him to

4 for 16
5 for 20
7 for 16
4 for 14
7 for 17

aka 32.5% in the other 5 games?

:oldlol:

[bwink23]

And when they hold him to

4 for 16
5 for 20
7 for 16
4 for 14
7 for 17

aka 32.5% in the other 5 games?

:oldlol:


IRRELEVANT....Jordan didn't shoot well vs. most teams...but he did score the most 40-point games he had during those seasons against the NETS...:sleeping

[Yao Ming's Foot]

IRRELEVANT....Jordan didn't shoot well vs. most teams...but he did score the most 40-point games he had during those seasons against the NETS...:sleeping

You would think Jordan has accomplished enough legitimate things in his career that people wouldn't have to prop up literally meaningless exhibition preseason games over 5 regular season games in a failed attempt to discredit Shaq.

:oldlol:

[bwink23]

You would think Jordan has accomplished enough legitimate things in his career that people wouldn't have to prop up literally meaningless exhibition preseason games over 5 regular season games in a failed attempt to discredit Shaq.

:oldlol:


You mean your failed attempt to discredit Jordan....Jordan's competition was better and put up a better fight than those Sixers and Nets teams destined to lose in a big way. GARBAGE

[juju151111]

LOL..........you're going to compare an injured Byron Scott, and arguably the worst defensive team to ever make the Finals in the Suns, to a DPOY in Mutombo? Lets not even talk about pace or era.....
MJ guarded Magic like 70% of the Lakers series you dumbass:facepalm

[juju151111]

And when they hold him to

4 for 16
5 for 20
7 for 16
4 for 14
7 for 17

aka 32.5% in the other 5 games?

:oldlol:
Didn't i already destroy your stupid defensive rating crap? You do realize that shit is flawed and a team in 03 being rated higher then the 96 bulls. I forgot what team it was but they wasnt even a defensive team. Lmao

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Two dominant players in God mode when it counted the most.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Didn't i already destroy your stupid defensive rating crap? You do realize that shit is flawed and a team in 03 being rated higher then the 96 bulls. I forgot what team it was but they wasnt even a defensive team. Lmao

How can you destroy defensive rating. Its simply a points per possesion stat. That's like saying I destroyed your points per game stat. Jordan played during an era of inflated era of offensive statistics. I'm sorry if this fact upsets you.

[lilojmayo]

Very close. The two greatest performers in Finals history imo. I give Jordan's three-peat the edge because he did it against better competition (legends like Magic, Drexler, and Barkley vs. Jalen Rose, AI, and Kidd), had to exert himself defensively more in said Finals (guarding Magic and Drexler in consecutive Finals), and was also the go-to guy down the stretch of every game, whereas Kobe tended to be that guy for the Lakers. Statistically it's very close, but MJ's ability to close out games, greater ability to raise his game on command when needed, and intangibles make me give him the edge.

lol its clearly Jordan numbers wise. and Jordan seperates himself when you look at who he faced. Jordan did this against good defenders also.

that Nets team may just have been the worst team since the merger to make it to the finals.

[eliteballer]

Stop being stupid. You cant understimate Shaq getting the opposing team especially the bigs in foul trouble AND anchoring the Lakers defense.

Lets not even talk about what he did against teams like the Blazers, Spurs, and Kings.

[NumberSix]

Stop being stupid. You cant understimate Shaq getting the opposing team especially the bigs in foul trouble AND anchoring the Lakers defense.

Lets not even talk about what he did against teams like the Blazers, Spurs, and Kings.
Dog, are you serious? Why would you start that fire?

[JtotheIzzo]

Jordan
vs. Lakers in 1991 Finals; 31.2/6.6/11.4/2.8/1.4 on 55.8 fg%
vs. Blazers in 1992 Finals; 35.8/4.8/6.5/1.7/0.3 on 52.6 fg%
vs. Suns in 1993 Finals; 41.0/8.5/6.3/1.7/0.7 on 50.8 fg%

Combined; 36.3ppg / 6.6rpg / 7.9apg / 2.0spg / 0.8bpg / 3.4tpg / 52.6fg% / 80.5ft%


Shaq
vs. Pacers in 2000 Finals; 38.0/16.7/2.3/1.0/2.7 on 61.1 fg%
vs. Sixers in 2001 Finals; 33.0/15.8/4.8/0.4/3.4 on 57.3 fg%
vs. Nets in 2002 Finals; 36.3/12.3/3.8/0.5/2.8 on 59.5 fg%

Combined; 35.9ppg / 15.2rpg / 3.5apg / 0.7spg / 2.9bpg / 3.1tpg / 59.5fg% / 50.6ft%



What do you think about them?

This particular Shaquille O'Neal was the most dominant player of the modern era. People who watched this, knew this. They changed the zone defense rule because of Shaq's dominance.


Dog, are you serious? Why would you start that fire?

Really?

41 and 17 in game 6
35 and 13 in game 7

[bwink23]

How can you destroy defensive rating. Its simply a points per possesion stat. That's like saying I destroyed your points per game stat. Jordan played during an era of inflated era of offensive statistics. I'm sorry if this fact upsets you.


Wrong, the 90's were no more inflated than the 2000's....1996 Bulls in an INFLATED ERA ??? Think again ass clown. The 80's were somewhat inflated due to the speed of the game...but the effective FG% in the 80's is very comparable to that of the 2000's. The biggest differences being less possessions and more 3-pointers.

Keep Trying.

[Odinn]

Stop being stupid. You cant understimate Shaq getting the opposing team especially the bigs in foul trouble AND anchoring the Lakers defense.

Lets not even talk about what he did against teams like the Blazers, Spurs, and Kings.
Spurs kinda irrelevant. 2000; Lakers and Spurs didn't even meet. 2001; only 15+ ppg Spur (alongside Duncan) Derek Anderson was injured and Kobe dominated / was the mvp of that series. 2002; DRob was injured and played only 74 minutes.

Shaq;
vs. Blazers in 2000 playoffs; 25.9/12.4/4.3/1.9 on 53.7%
vs. Kings in 2002 playoffs; 30.3/13.6/1.6/2.4 on 53.2%

[andgar923]

Again... why is this even an argument when one player a significantly lower ft%? :confusedshrug:

I'd understand if Shaq shot a respectable percentage, but he was a huge liability. And like Shaq, MJ used to put teams in foul pressure as well, but the only reason MJ didn't shoot as many fts was because he wasn't fouled on purpose on almost every possession at the end of games... YES that's how bad Shaq was.

If the game is close there's no question who I want (or any sane person) at the end of the game.

[La Frescobaldi]

greatest finals performances ever

West 69
Barry 75
Chamberlain 72
Shaq 01
DJ 79
Dr. J 83
Jordan 92
Chamberlain 67
Jordan 96

Bird Magic is probably in there and I can't figure it out out those top 5 are not in doubt.

Kareem 71 is not included whatsoever.

[97 bulls]

Jordans run was far more impressive. As has already been said, shaq had two marks against him. He was a terrible FT shooter. And even more, he didn't have to worry much about playing defense vs the terrible offensive centers he went up against during that threepeat. Mutombo? (an old mutombo) todd mcculough? The best center he played against was rik smits. And he was old too. Shaq exerted minimaal energy on defense. Where as jordan had to defend magic, drexler, marjle, and kevin johnsonn. All in their primes. As well as rebound, score, pass etc. And he was the bulls finisher.

[Odinn]

greatest finals performances ever

West 69
Barry 75
Chamberlain 72
Shaq 01
DJ 79
Dr. J 83
Jordan 92
Chamberlain 67
Jordan 96

Bird Magic is probably in there and I can't figure it out out those top 5 are not in doubt.

Kareem 71 is not included whatsoever.
Instead of Dr. J 77 or Moses Malone 83?

Just stfu and gtfo.