Hall of Famer? Part 2: Tracy McGrady

[RRR3]

The second part of a 10-part series. As I said, will do a new one each day. Today's player is Tracy McGrady.
Part 1: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240203

http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2011/02/23/15/KINGSMAGIC.standalone.prod_affiliate.4.jpg

"Tracy McGrady is playing like Michael Jordan, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem all wrapped into one.......[I can say] with a straight face that this guy has a chance to be the greatest player of all time"-Bill Walton on McGrady when he was with the Magic

"Much of the game was so easy [for him]...He should be a Hall of Fame player. His talent was other-worldly. He was given a great leg up in the race against other players. He’s as close as I’ve ever seen to someone with a perfect body and a good mind.”-Jeff Van Gundy, McGrady's coach in Houston

"What scares me is that Tracy's probable for about 40 (points).
Questionable for 50. Probable for 40."
—Jeff Bzdelik

Regular Season Stats (bold indicates led NBA)
*Purple Indicates Raptors, Blue Indicates Magic, Red Indicates Rockets, Black Indicates Rockets/Knicks, Dark Blue Indicates Pistons
1997-98: (18 MPG) 7/4/2/1/1 on 45/34/71. 17.4 PER
1998-99: (49 games, 23 MPG) 9/6/2/1/1 on 44/23/73. 20.6 PER
1999-00: (31 MPG) 15/6/3/1/2 on 45/28/71. 20.0 PER
2000-01: 27/8/5/2/2 on 46/36/73. 24.9 PER
2001-02: 26/8/5/2/1 on 45/36/75. 25.1 PER
2002-03: 32/7/6/2/1 on 46/39/79. 30.3 PER
2003-04: 28/6/6/1/1 on 42/34/80. 25.3 PER
2004-05: 26/6/6/2/1 on 43/33/77. 22.9 PER
2005-06: (47 games) 24/7/5/1/1 on 41/31/75. 21.9 PER
2006-07: 25/5/7/1/1 on 43/33/71. 23.2 PER
2007-08: 22/5/6/1/1 on 42/29/68. 18.4 PER
2008-09: (35 games) 16/4/5/1/0 on 39/38/80. 16.3 PER
2009-10: (30 games, 22 MPG) 8/3/3/1/1 on 39/25/75. 12.2 PER
2010-11: (23 MPG) 8/4/4/1/1 on 44/34/70. 14.9 PER
Career Regular Season Stats: (34 MPG) 20/6/5/1/1 on 44/34/75. 22.4 PER

Playoff Stats
1999-00: 3 games, 17/7/3/1/1 on 39/29/88. 15.3 PER
2000-01: 4 games, 34/7/8/2/1 on 42/20/82. 26.8 PER
2001-02: 4 games, 31/6/6/1/2 on 46/31/74. 25.6 PER
2002-03: 7 games, 32/7/5/2/1 on 45/34/77. 27.0 PER
2004-05: 7 games, 31/7/7/2/1 on 46/37/82. 27.2 PER
2006-07: 7 games, 25/6/7/1/1 on 39/25/74. 21.2 PER
2007-08: 6 games, 27/8/7/2/1 on 43/21/62. 24.4 PER
Career Playoff Stats: 29/7/6/1/1 on 43/30/76. 24.7 PER

Awards and Accomplishments
7x All-Star (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007)
2000-01 NBA Most Improved Player
February 2001 Player of the Month
3x Eastern Conference Player of the Month (February 2002, November 2002, March 2003)
2x All-NBA (1st)
3x All-NBA (2nd)
2x All-NBA (3rd)
Finished 4th in MVP voting in both 2001-02 and 2002-03. Also had four other seasons with at least a top 8 finish in MVP voting.
Led NBA in Points per game in 2002-03 and 2003-04. Only 10 other players in NBA history (George Mikan, Neil Johnston, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bob McAdoo, George Gervin, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant) have won back-to-back scoring titles.
Ranked 7th in NBA in steals per game in 2004-05
Led NBA in PER in 2002-03. Finished in the top 3 three other times.
Is 46th in NBA History in PPG
Is 25th in NBA History in PER
Is 4th all time in PPG in NBA Playoffs history

Highlights
43 points against Pistons in 2003 Playoffs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTqK7Z8fejQ
Going head-to-head with Kobe Bryant (both had 38 points) in 2003. Three parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqXPfdTzAzc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-VOk3kSpI&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkrrAu3_Ejo&feature=related
Some great plays: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4ERnuOZ7LA
62 points vs. Wizards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvcBcQvPrCs
52 points in 3 quarters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVO1qegcbXY
And, of course, 13 points in 35 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfurCV1FDpM :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


Conclusion: I am sure you all know what my opinion of T-Mac is (he's my favorite player ever LOL), but even if I'm being unbiased I think he has a strong case to be a hall of famer. His career did not go as some would have hoped, due to injuries and perhaps a below average work ethic, but his peak is one of the greatest seasons ever for a perimeter player. That, coupled with his excellent prime, for me, should be enough to push him into the HOF (not first ballot, but eventually). I realize he did not have playoff success, but you cannot really blame him for the majority of those years if you look at how well he did and how awful his teammates were (in Orlando). In Houston, he and Yao were rarely healthy together, which is a damn shame. Anyways, your thoughts?

[Rnbizzle]

T-Mac should definitely make the HOF imo..

[RRR3]

Here's another video...T-Mac 46 points vs Pistons in 03 playoffs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx1IY5ZFAxw

The box score for this game should illustrate to some degree how bad his teammates were in Orlando: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200304230DET.html

[D-Wade316]

If you value his peak, then he definitely should enter the HOF. But if you value his entire career, disappointing one, then he isn't.

[Rnbizzle]

Are there ANY (retired) players currently not in the HOF who have had seasons as dominant as T-Mac's 03 season? I seriously doubt it.

[RRR3]

Are there ANY (retired) players currently not in the HOF who have had seasons as dominant as T-Mac's 03 season? I seriously doubt it.
Not to the best of my knowledge. To be honest, there are few perimeter players ever who have had seasons on that level.

[D-Wade316]

Are there ANY (retired) players currently not in the HOF who have had seasons as dominant as T-Mac's 03 season? I seriously doubt it.
Shaq:D

[Rnbizzle]

Shaq:D
:mad: :cheers:

[L.Kizzle]

Adrian Dantley, Bob Lanier are hall of famers. So is Mac. But Bernard King and Sidney Moncrief are not, so who knows.

[JMT]

Not a chance. Not even close. Laughable.

No MVP (never higher than 4th in voting). Couldn't guard a door with a machine gun. Next meaningful pass he throws will be his first (as much as he dominated the ball only one season of 6.0 assists or better).

Only thing going for him is two scoring titles, and those are EASILY offset by the fact that he couldn't even get a team out of the first round of the playoffs.

[Rnbizzle]

Not a chance. Not even close. Laughable.

No MVP (never higher than 4th in voting). Couldn't guard a door with a machine gun. Next meaningful pass he throws will be his first (as much as he dominated the ball only one season of 6.0 assists or better).

Only thing going for him is two scoring titles, and those are EASILY offset by the fact that he couldn't even get a team out of the first round of the playoffs.
http://i.imgur.com/chleJ.gif

[Jimmy2k8]

Not a chance. Not even close. Laughable.
No MVP (never higher than 4th in voting). Couldn't guard a door with a machine gun. Next meaningful pass he throws will be his first (as much as he dominated the ball only one season of 6.0 assists or better).
Only thing going for him is two scoring titles, and those are EASILY offset by the fact that he couldn't even get a team out of the first round of the playoffs.



http://www.secsportsfan.com/images/pistol-pete-maravich.jpg

[JMT]

http://i.imgur.com/chleJ.gif

And fools are gonna think Tracy McGrady deserves or ever makes the HOF.

[RRR3]

Not a chance. Not even close. Laughable.

No MVP (never higher than 4th in voting). Couldn't guard a door with a machine gun. Next meaningful pass he throws will be his first (as much as he dominated the ball only one season of 6.0 assists or better).

Only thing going for him is two scoring titles, and those are EASILY offset by the fact that he couldn't even get a team out of the first round of the playoffs.
Fail. :facepalm You can't honestly blame him for any of the Magic years, and he still played well in the playoffs for the Rockets. Bad circumstances and bad luck IMO. He deserved to be in the top 2 in MVP voting 02-03 IMO, and he was a MUCH better defender than you gave him credit for. And you're going to criticize him for not passing enough? On the Magic, at least who was he supposed to pass to? Drew Gooden? :roll:

[Rnbizzle]

And fools are gonna think Tracy McGrady deserves or ever makes the HOF.
Give me one player, who has dominated the game on the level Tracy McGrady has, who is not currently in the hall of fame.. Don't worry, I'll wait.

[JMT]

http://www.secsportsfan.com/images/pistol-pete-maravich.jpg

All Time leading scorer in college basketball history, along with easily matching McGrady's NBA accomplishments.

It's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.

[JMT]

Give me one player, who has dominated the game on the level Tracy McGrady has, who is not currently in the hall of fame.. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Dominated? Please explain.

How? With the ball in his hands as the offense stagnated? For one season?

And lets not base it all on PER or some other inane stat designed for those who don't understand the game by watching it. Lets pretend you can actually determine a "dominant" player by seeing one.

Don't worry. I'll wait.

[Rnbizzle]

Did you watch those games? Are we going to pretend he didn't win a whole bunch of those games for his teams? If I seriously have to explain to you, how T-Mac dominated the league in those years, I'm not gonna get into this with you any further, sorry..

[JMT]

Did you watch those games? Are we going to pretend he didn't win a whole bunch of those games for his teams? If I seriously have to explain to you, how T-Mac dominated the league in those years, I'm not gonna get into this with you any further, sorry..

One dimensional player who never made a teammate better and couldn't win anything outside the regular season.

To me, that's not a HOFer.

Guess we'll agree to disagree.

[rodman91]

20.8 ppg 5.8 rpg 4.6 apg regular season career.
29 ppg 7 rpg 6 apg playoffs career.

25-32 ppg 6-8 rpg and 5-6 apg in prime. (7-8 years)

7 time all star
2 scoring champion.
7 all team (2 first)

Belongs to hall of fame.

[Smoke117]

You keep asking these questions when it's so easy to get into the basketball hof that what is the point? Guys like Vince Carter and Tracy Mcgrady deserving or not will probably make it and it doesn't really mean anything. It's not exactly difficult to get into the basketball hof. Besides the locks that get in first year, there is always guys that probably shouldn't be in there that eventually make it on way later nominations or their 6th or 7th or whatever nomination.

[rodman91]

You keep asking these questions when it's so easy to get into the basketball hof that what is the point? Guys like Vince Carter and Tracy Mcgrady deserving or not will probably make it and it doesn't really anything. It's not exactly difficult to get into the basketball hof.

Carter & McGrady were superstars of 00's.It's still difficult for other borderline allstars.

Duncan,Kobe,Garnett,Iverson,Nash,Carter,McGrady,Al len,Pierce... not so much for a decade.

[HylianNightmare]

another one that could go either way, i don't think he'd make it

[JohnnySic]

Nope. His peak was too short, and he lacks playoff success.

[Legends66NBA7]

This is much easier to me (surprisingly little) than Vince.


T-Mac was much more dominant in his prime/peak. Yes, his playoff success will always be his Achilles heel, but let's look at his playoff numbers and elimination games closely:

2001- Team goes 43-39, didn't have HCA, were the underdogs, Grant Hill injured for the majority of the season, 2nd best player was Darrel Armstrong for the rest of the season. Got eliminated by the #1 ranked offensive team in the Milwaukee Bucks (who had Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, and Sam Cassell) that made the ECF and were 1 game away from playing in the Finals.

T-Mac P/O: 33.8ppg 6.5rpg 8.3apg 1.8spg 1.3bpg 2t/o 41.5%fg 20%3pt 81.6%ft

Elimination games:
Game 3

[97 bulls]

He had hall of fame talent. But unfortunately, it didn't translate due to injuries and bad luck.

[Legends66NBA7]

He had hall of fame talent. But unfortunately, it didn't translate due to injuries and bad luck.

+1.

[rodman91]

Nope. His peak was too short, and he lacks playoff success.
7-8 years isn't that short.

[32Dayz]

Are you joking?

Easily a HOF and there can be no debate.

He was the best overall SG from 00-05.

In that time frame he had 3-5 seasons of 32/6/6 in the playoffs on 55%+ TS before the sissy hand-check rules were put in place..

Just because his Career was relatively short due to injury's and he never had good talent on his team in those years doesn't mean he wasn't an absolutely amazing and GOAT level talent player.

Those 4-5/6 Years are more then good enough to get him into the Hall.

I have no doubt TMac + Shaq could have won just an easily as him and Kobe in the early 00's.

Not hating on Kobe just trying to make a point that TMac was arguably the best guard in the early 00's and the main reason he didn't have playoff success was due to him having poor teams not because he himself was poor as a player.

Also was the lead MVP vote getter at the Guard Position from 00-05.

[rodman91]

He was the best overall SG from 00-05.



You mean all around, right?

[32Dayz]

You mean all around, right?

Whats the difference?

I think he was the best SG in that time frame followed very closely by Kobe Bryant.

Kobe has the Team accolades but he also had the best player in the league at the time and a much better overall team.

I dont think that's a fair excuse to say Kobe > TMac.

[Noob Saibot]

Now with TMac this can go either way like hyliannightmare mentioned. Early in his Magic and Rockets days, he seemed to be a lock for the hall of fame, but injuries crippled him big time. Now with the Pistons if he can slowly get back to form and win a playoff round, then no doubt he would get my vote for the HOF.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Give me one player, who has dominated the game on the level Tracy McGrady has, who is not currently in the hall of fame.. Don't worry, I'll wait.

How do you dominate the game by never making it out of the first round? Don't worry, I'll wait.

[32Dayz]

How do you dominate the game by never making it out of the first round? Don't worry, I'll wait.

By having your 2nd and 3rd best players be Old Fat Decrepit Shawn Kemp and young Mike Miller?

It's a team game.

What did Kobe accomplish from 05-07 with TMac like Cast's?
Same thing TMac did.

[Kevin_Gamble]

By having your 2nd and 3rd best players be Old Fat Decrepit Shawn Kemp and young Mike Miller?

It's a team game.

What did Kobe accomplish from 05-07 with TMac like Cast's?
Same thing TMac did.

So many excuses. Kobe won several championships. Paul Pierce made it to conference finals with Toine, Walter McCarty and Rodney Rogers. VC made it to 2nd round with 50 year old Oakley playing 40 minutes per game.

[32Dayz]

So many excuses.
Kobe's Teams in which he was only the best player on 7 or 8 of them and on 2/5 Title Teams won several championships.

Fixed.

[senelcoolidge]

I don't think he should get in. He had some great years, but overall nope. Many peoples in the NBA have had great peak years, but overall were not great because of injuries or other issues.

[97 bulls]

By having your 2nd and 3rd best players be Old Fat Decrepit Shawn Kemp and young Mike Miller?

It's a team game.

What did Kobe accomplish from 05-07 with TMac like Cast's?
Same thing TMac did.
Honestly, its not a fair comparison. The east was terribly weak when tmac was on the magic. The west was incredibly strong during the same time frame.

Its why I feel a lot of you guys are overrating tmacs situation. It didn't take much to succeed in east at that time. Iverson led the sixers to the nba finals with a core of mutombo, eric snow and arron mckie. The magics best season,under tmacs leadership, won 44 games and were exited in the first round

Jason kidd led the nets to back to back finals with rookie richard jefferson and a raw kenyon martin.

[JMT]

Honestly, its not a fair comparison. The east was terribly weak when tmac was on the magic. The west was incredibly strong during the same time frame.

Its why I feel a lot of you guys are overrating tmacs situation. It didn't take much to succeed in east at that time. Iverson led the sixers to the nba finals with a core of mutombo, eric snow and arron mckie.

Jason kidd led the nets to back to back finals with rookie richard jefferson and a raw kenyon martin.

:applause:

[32Dayz]

Honestly, its not a fair comparison. The east was terribly weak when tmac was on the magic. The west was incredibly strong during the same time frame.

Its why I feel a lot of you guys are overrating tmacs situation. It didn't take much to succeed in east at that time. Iverson led the sixers to the nba finals with a core of mutombo, eric snow and arron mckie.

Jason kidd led the nets to back to back finals with rookie richard jefferson and a raw kenyon martin.

Thats a bad excuse..

Your underestimating just how bad those Orlando teams were.

Jason Kidd had a much better team around him then TMac did and its not even remotely close.

Young KMart was a beast and the core of him Jefferson and Kittles was so much better then what TMac had.

I understand your point but you cant assume others could have accomplished more with the same Casts just like you cant Assume Prime TMac couldn't have gotten to the first round and failed with the teams Kobe had from 05-07.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Thats a bad excuse..

Your underestimating just how bad those Orlando teams were.

Jason Kidd had a much better team around him then TMac did and its not even remotely close.

Young KMart was a beast and the core of him Jefferson and Kittles was so much better then what TMac had.

I understand your point but you cant assume others could have accomplished more with the same Casts just like you cant Assume Prime TMac couldn't have gotten to the first round and failed with the teams Kobe had from 05-07.

Jason Kidd went to the NBA FINALS twice in a row, with Richard ****ing Jefferson as your second best player. We are not asking for T-Mac to be as good as Jason Kidd. But if Tmac was a HOF caliber player who "dominated" the NBA, then you would expect he could have at least made it out of the first round.

[JMT]

I understand your point but you cant assume others could have accomplished more with the same Casts just like you cant Assume Prime TMac couldn't have gotten to the first round and failed with the teams Kobe had from 05-07.

But we don't have to assume anything. His teams were good enough to win in the regular season, but not good enough to win in the playoffs. Not just in Orlando; everywhere. Not win championships. Win a single series.

[32Dayz]

TMac for 3 or 4 years in that time period 00-05 was putting up 32/6/6 on 55%+TS with very low turnover rate in the playoffs.

Is it really his fault that those teams didn't advance?

Really? :facepalm

[JMT]

TMac for 3 or 4 years in that time period 00-05 was putting up 32/6/6 on 55%+TS with very low turnover rate in the playoffs.

Is it really his fault that those teams didn't advance?



Difference between a really good player who scored but did little else and a Hall of Fame caliber player.

There have been lots of really good, even great, scorers. Especially when you're talking about a period of just a few years. They don't all get in the Hall of Fame, and rightly so.

[Smoke117]

Like I've said before, Tracy is massively overrated as scorer beside that 03 season even aside from the back injury. in 01 and 02 when he was the man he was scoring 26.8pts on 22.4 shots and 25.6 shots 20.9 shots...there is nothing particularly impressive about that. I'm not discussing his all around game which was pretty damn good, but as a scorer you all have him massively overrated. After that 03 season in 04 he averaged 28.0ppg on 23.4 shots...again...not impressive. In 05...25.7 on 21.3. There is nothing special about that. It doesn't really get any better after that the following Rocket years. Just a high volume shooter for his points back injury or not. If he was so crippled by his back he shouldn't be shooting his team out of games then. That 03 season was literally the only season he ever had that he was efficient as a scorer at all. People need to stop over glorifying him because of that back injury.

[32Dayz]

Difference between a really good player who scored but did little else and a Hall of Fame caliber player.

There have been lots of really good, even great, scorers. Especially when you're talking about a period of a couple years. They don't all get in the Hall of Fame, and rightly so.

Scored but didnt do anything else?

He was an incredible passer, rebounder and all around player.

Incredibly skilled and had one of the highest BBIQ's ever.

He was a better all around player then any SG in the league during his Prime.

Where do you get this idea that he was one dimensional?

["Jesus"]

Is 4th all time in PPG in NBA Playoffs history


Really? I did not know this. For a guy that never made it past the first round, that is amazing. I hope he gets HoF, his success in the post season might ultimately hinder him from it.

Hopefully a solid team can pick him up, he can still make a valuable contribution off the bench.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Scored but didnt do anything else?

He was an incredible passer, rebounder and all around player.

Incredibly skilled and had one of the highest BBIQ's ever.

He was a better all around player then any SG in the league during his Prime.

Where do you get this idea that he was one dimensional?

Not an incredible passer. Also, for a good part of his career he was none-dimensional, seeing as how he spent a good portion of his career in a suit.

[32Dayz]

Not an incredible passer. Also, for a good part of his career he was none-dimensional, seeing as how he spent a good portion of his career in a suit.

So did Kobe :confusedshrug:
And that's a stupid point anyway.

And yes he was an incredible passer if you dont think he was then you need to go rewatch some TMac games.

[bizil]

Peak value T-Mac in my book is a top 6 SG of all time:

MJ
Kobe
T-Mac
Wade
West
Drexler

U can argue peak value wise that Mac is a top 3 SG of all time. All six of these guys are tremendous all around players in addition to being awesome, Batman scorers. It what separates them from other SG's like Miller, Monore, Gervin, Pete, Dumars, and AI. T-Mac was an awesome all around player with no weaknesses. And he was really around 6'10 with that package as well. So imagine a mix of Durant, Gervin, and Penny all in one. That's what u get in T-Mac.

In terms of HOF, he might get in down the road maybe. In the years he was healthy, he accumulated 6 or 7 tremendous HOF type seasons. He got two scoring titles, 7 All NBA teams, and 7 All Star games. Bernard King is getting Hall nominated and didn't accomplish what T Mac did. So T Mac should get a look. But if he gets in, I don't know. I think his cuz Vince has a better chance. As a player though, T Mac was a slam dunk, first ballot HOFer who changed the SG spot. There was never a guy 6'9 or 6'10 doin the shit Mac was doin at SG.

[bizil]

The Hall can be about numbers as well. So if Mac can somehow get to 20,000 points like Vince did through his injuries, that well increase his chances even more. Cause Mac at his best was considered a top 5 player in the L. In the all around sense, he was arguably the best player in the L along with Kobe and KG. When u were that great that will help. Mac is over 18,000 points right now. He's only 32 so he could still creep up on 20,000.

[RRR3]

I think both TMac and VC get stigmatized by a lot of people. Part of this is because they have both (unfairly IMO) been written off as "losers", and people ignore the context in which they played in. Sure, both had questionable work ethics at times, but they also both were on teams ranging from mediocore to awful in talent for most of their primes and both dealt with numerous injuries. Both are two of the absolute most gifted players to ever play in the NBA, and both (especially T-Mac) were amazing at their best.

[RRR3]

The Hall can be about numbers as well. So if Mac can somehow get to 20,000 points like Vince did through his injuries, that well increase his chances even more. Cause Mac at his best was considered a top 5 player in the L. In the all around sense, he was arguably the best player in the L along with Kobe and KG. When u were that great that will help. Mac is over 18,000 points right now. He's only 32 so he could still creep up on 20,000.
I think McGrady is at a point in his career where he can start ring chasing now. He should consider the Heat or the Bulls IMO.

[JMT]

I think both TMac and VC get stigmatized by a lot of people. Part of this is because they have both (unfairly IMO) been written off as "losers", and people ignore the context in which they played in. Sure, both had questionable work ethics at times, but they also both were on teams ranging from mediocore to awful in talent for most of their primes and both dealt with numerous injuries. Both are two of the absolute most gifted players to ever play in the NBA, and both (especially T-Mac) were amazing at their best.

When your star doesn't play up to his potential, the other guys rarely will. Star players lead by example. Neither did.

HOF is for not only stars, but the elite of stars. Guys whose supporters readily admit that they didn't exhibit strong work ethic and give maximum effort aren't elite.

[Kevin_Gamble]

What's funny is, these same people who think T-Mac is a dominant HOF-level scorer are the ones who say AI was a terrible shooter and a ball hog. Yet they shot pretty much the same FG%, except AI actually took his terrible teams somewhere outside of failure.

[JMT]

What's funny is, these same people who think T-Mac is a dominant HOF-level scorer are the ones who say AI was a terrible shooter and a ball hog. Yet they shot pretty much the same FG%, except AI actually took his terrible teams somewhere outside of failure.

:cheers:

[32Dayz]

What's funny is, these same people who think T-Mac is a dominant HOF-level scorer are the ones who say AI was a terrible shooter and a ball hog. Yet they shot pretty much the same FG%, except AI actually took his terrible teams somewhere outside of failure.

:wtf: @ Bolded

[Kevin_Gamble]

I think both TMac and VC get stigmatized by a lot of people. Part of this is because they have both (unfairly IMO) been written off as "losers", and people ignore the context in which they played in. Sure, both had questionable work ethics at times, but they also both were on teams ranging from mediocore to awful in talent for most of their primes and both dealt with numerous injuries. Both are two of the absolute most gifted players to ever play in the NBA, and both (especially T-Mac) were amazing at their best.

This is hardly true. People always make excuses for TMac, while accusing VC of being lazy or not having a heart and what not. Yet it's VC who's had the better career and actually led his team when it counted.

[32Dayz]

This is hardly true. People always make excuses for TMac, while accusing VC of being lazy or not having a heart and what not. Yet it's VC who's had the better career and actually led his team when it counted.

How is 32/6/6 on 55% TS with extremely low T/O Rate not leading your team?

Again your underestimating just how bad TMac's early 00 Teams were.

Vince or Kobe wouldn't have gotten them any further.

[97 bulls]

How is 32/6/6 on 55% TS with extremely low T/O Rate not leading your team?

Again your underestimating just how bad TMac's early 00 Teams were.

Vince or Kobe wouldn't have gotten them any further.
But what's the point? His teams didn't overachieve. The 01 sixers are probably a 47 win team at best if they played intodays east.

The nets won the east winning 52 games iin 03. Transplant those magic teams to the west and I'm sure they barely make 500 at best. More likely 38 wins

[32Dayz]

But what's the point? His teams didn't overachieve. The 01 sixers are probably a 47 win team at best if they played intodays east.

The nets won the east winning 52 games iin 03. Transplant those magic teams to the west and I'm sure they barely make 500 at best. More likely 38 wins

So?

Those Magic teams make Kobe's Mid 00 Team's look stacked.

What he accomplished with them was overachieving in my book.

[bizil]

I think McGrady is at a point in his career where he can start ring chasing now. He should consider the Heat or the Bulls IMO.

I agree with u! He would fit great with either squad. Mac scored 574 points this year with Detroit for an average of 8 points. If he did that for 3 to 4 more years he would hit 20,000 points. He's more than capable of doing that on a title contending team. T Mac's versatility and IQ would make him a great fit. And who knows, he might get healthier as time goes on like G Hill.

[kenny817]

http://i.imgur.com/chleJ.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Meticode]

He's borderline to me, but I personally lean towards no. He was an awesome player and I think if he played at a high level for another 2 or 3 years without the injuries holding him back or if he had a little more playoff success he would've been in. He just fell off too quickly with the injuries. It's unfortunate.

[DMV2]

I'm giving a no to T-Mac. The stigma of never advancing past the 1st Round hurts his resume, and his injuries definitely were a major blow.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: at some of these comments.

Tracy in his short prime before injuries('01-'05) was not only one of the game's great scorers who could beat you with the pull up jumper from any area, catch and shoot, drive, finish with a dunk or circus shot, create his own shot with his great ball handling skills. But he was also one of the best passing non-PGs in the game, rebounded well for his position and while he didn't do it consistently(probably due to his offensive load), he could shut down a variety of players, and often did in the playoffs. Just ask Dirk or Glenn Robinson.

As far as the first round thing. Look at his performances from '01-'05 in the playoffs. In Orlando, he always faced a team more talented than him and performed, whether it was the '01 Bucks who were loaded with offensive talent and T-Mac did his part averaging 34/7/8 with a cast of rookie Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong, Bo Outlaw and Pat Garrity vs Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Glenn Robinson and Tim Thomas.

He had the best chance in '02 with Jamal Mashburn injured for the Hornets, but he still had to win with Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, 36/37 year old Horace Grant, Monty Williams, injured Mike Miller, Troy Hudson and 39/40 year old Patrick Ewing. T-Mac averaged an efficient 31/6/6 in the series.

His cast in '03 was the biggest joke. Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie seasons, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, Jacque Vaughn, 300+ pound Shawn Kemp in his last season, Andrew DeClercq and Chris Whitney.

It's a miracle he took that trash heap to 7 games vs a good Piston team with a great defense. In game 2, he had 46 points and still lost by 11 despite shooting 62%. That's because the rest of the team scored 31 on 26% shooting.

T-Mac ended up averaging an efficient 32/7/5 vs a great defense. Was T-Mac's '03 Magic team any more overmatched than Kobe's Lakers vs the Suns without Amare in '06? Or Wade's Heat vs Atlanta in '09?

First decent team he had was '05 and he averaged an efficient 31/7/7 vs Dallas. His team wasn't even that good outside of a 3rd year foul prone Yao and Tracy completely outplayed Dirk in that series.

His actual level of play combined with 2 all-nba first teams and 2 scoring titles is enough for me.

And the all-nba first teams weren't cheap either. He got on the 2002 team listed as a forward in front of prime KG and on the '03 team as a guard in front of peak Kidd and prime Iverson.

He was in the discussion for best player in the game. Not just in his peak season of '03. But before his peak season, general managers/players voted T-Mac as the second best player behind only Shaq in 2002.

[JMT]

How is 32/6/6 on 55% TS with extremely low T/O Rate not leading your team?

Again your underestimating just how bad TMac's early 00 Teams were.

Vince or Kobe wouldn't have gotten them any further.

I've never seen "Other guys probably wouldn't have done any better playing with his teams" as a HOF criteria.

Facts are, we'll never know, those were his teams, and none of his teams ever won a single playoff series.

[32Dayz]

Well I judge players based on their Production/Intangibles and performances.

I do take team success into account also but I feel strongly enough that I can give TMac a pass based on how bad his teams were.

If he had better teams and still failed the same way I might hold that against him but not with the horrid trash of supporting Casts he had.

I dont think any of his teams failed to advance because of his play so it makes no sense to use that against him.

:applause:

[97 bulls]

So?

Those Magic teams make Kobe's Mid 00 Team's look stacked.

What he accomplished with them was overachieving in my book.
I'm not saying he had good teammates. What I'm saying is how that what the magic did be considered overacheving when they played in arguably the worst conference the nba has ever seen? Transplant those early 00s magic teams in any other era, and they're not even a 40 win team. How is that overachieving? They were a bad team playing in a terrible conference.

[32Dayz]

I'm not saying he had good teammates. What I'm saying is how that what the magic did be considered overacheving when they played in arguably the worst conference the nba has ever seen? Transplant those early 00s magic teams in any other era, and they're not even a 40 win team. How is that overachieving? They were a bad team playing in a terrible conference.

Because the conference was "stacked" in comparison to his team.

There is no difference between having a decent/good team in a conference full of stacked teams or having a absolutely horrid/decrepit team in a conference full of average/bad teams.

[97 bulls]

Well I judge players based on their Production/Intangibles and performances.

I do take team success into account also but I feel strongly enough that I can give TMac a pass based on how bad his teams were.

If he had better teams and still failed the same way I might hold that against him but not with the horrid trash of supporting Casts he had.

I dont think any of his teams failed to advance because of his play so it makes no sense to use that against him.

:applause:
But your trying to credit his playing on bad teams. Don't bring it up. I agree he had hall of fame talent. But what he did leading those magic teams weren't impressive at all.

[32Dayz]

But your trying to credit his playing on bad teams. Don't bring it up. I agree he had hall of fame talent. But what he did leading those magic teams weren't impressive at all.

Well that's your opinion not mine.

I think he did as good as he could have done with those teams.

Only SG I can imagine doing better is Jordan.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Well that's your opinion not mine.

I think he did as good as he could have done with those teams.

Only SG I can imagine doing better is Jordan.

Here's a little fact for you. All those teams in the East back in the days, they were all bad. But guys like AI, VC, and Pierce didn't consistently fail. Now, why were they so much better than TMac at winning basketball games if TMac was such a great and dominant basketball player?

[97 bulls]

Because the conference was "stacked" in comparison to his team.

There is no difference between having a decent/good team in a conference full of stacked teams or having a absolutely horrid/decrepit team in a conference full of average/bad teams.
Lol the east was not "stacked" during that time bro. Come on. Jason kidd led the nets to back to back nba finals appearances with richard jefferson as his 2nd best player. Just as a point of reference. The 97 bulls first round opponant was the 44 win washington bullets. They had chris webber, juwan howard, and rod strickland. That team would murder the nets.

[97 bulls]

Well that's your opinion not mine.

I think he did as good as he could have done with those teams.

Only SG I can imagine doing better is Jordan.
He probably did. But your trying to give him A+ credit for C work.

[kentatm]

I think both TMac and VC get stigmatized by a lot of people. Part of this is because they have both (unfairly IMO) been written off as "losers", and people ignore the context in which they played in. Sure, both had questionable work ethics at times, but they also both were on teams ranging from mediocore to awful in talent for most of their primes and both dealt with numerous injuries. Both are two of the absolute most gifted players to ever play in the NBA, and both (especially T-Mac) were amazing at their best.


how is it unfair to label them as losers when it was painfully obvious they both quit on multiple teams?

[rodman91]

how is it unfair to label them as losers when it was painfully obvious they both quit on multiple teams?

Most of the star players quit if their franchises can't bring good players around them.

[kentatm]

Most of the star players quit if their franchises can't bring good players around them.


thats bullshit

[32Dayz]

thats bullshit

I forgot what year it was.. 06 or 07 before they got Gasol Kobe was threatening to leave LA or force a trade if they didn't sign some good players.

So no.. that's not bullshit.

[RRR3]

Was just reading about how the Mavs-Rockets series in 05 iirc was fixed :eek: according to Donaghy. Don't know if that has any truth to it, but if it does, that means T-Mac could have been in the secound round :facepalm

[28renyoy]

McGrady was a garbage chucker who had 1 good year and was extremely overrated because of it. He, like Iverson, was beloved by people that dont understand the game and just enjoy flashy play.

[RRR3]

McGrady was a garbage chucker who had 1 good year and was extremely overrated because of it. He, like Iverson, was beloved by people that dont understand the game and just enjoy flashy play.
:facepalm Both Iverson and T-Mac were better than your gay lover Durant.

[kentatm]

I forgot what year it was.. 06 or 07 before they got Gasol Kobe was threatening to leave LA or force a trade if they didn't sign some good players.

So no.. that's not bullshit.


threatening to leave vs flat out quitting (ie not trying hard) and admitting it like TMac did in Orlando and VC did in Toronto as well as publicly announcing your season is over and you are getting surgery BEFORE you tell anyone on the team or any of the coaching staff like TMac in Houston is FAR different than telling your front office you are going to move on in free agency.


So yes, it IS straight up bullshit.




Was just reading about how the Mavs-Rockets series in 05 iirc was fixed :eek: according to Donaghy. Don't know if that has any truth to it, but if it does, that means T-Mac could have been in the secound round :facepalm


The thing with that series is fixing it in favor of the Mavs makes absolutely no sense when you look at some basic facts.

1. Cuban and Stern openly loath each other

2. Houston is about the same size media market wise as Dallas so its not a big vs small market debate

3. Yao/TMac were by FAR the bigger draw nationally and internationally ratings and star power wise.

Why would Stern go against his own personal and league wide business interests?

[32Dayz]

threatening to leave vs flat out quitting (ie not trying hard) and admitting it like TMac did in Orlando and VC did in Toronto as well as publicly announcing your season is over and you are getting surgery BEFORE you tell anyone on the team or any of the coaching staff like TMac in Houston is FAR different than telling your front office you are going to move on in free agency.


So yes, it IS straight up bullshit.

Thats bullshit.
TMac always gave it his all in Orlando and he never quit on the Rockets.

Your just making shit up now. :facepalm

VC may have said or done those things but not Tracy quit acting like they are the same person.

["Jesus"]

T-Mac is my favourite player of all time.

But search up "The Toronto Game" on Youtube. He pretty much quit on Houston. Yes he was going to go into surgery soon after that, but to say he didn't quit is ignorant.

[kentatm]

Thats bullshit.
TMac always gave it his all in Orlando and he never quit on the Rockets.

Your just making shit up now. :facepalm

VC may have said or done those things but not Tracy quit acting like they are the same person.


WRONG

TMac openly admitted when he was in Houston that he did not give it his all in Orlando.


ORLANDO -- This might not come as a newsflash to Magic fans who endured last year's dreadful 21-61 season, but former Orlando guard Tracy McGrady is admitting now that he didn't always play hard.

In a feature story in this week's Sports Illustrated, McGrady admitted that he was so defeated mentally by the losing that "some nights I did slack off" and also "I'm not going to sit here and say I played my hardest every night." McGrady said he did not trust his teammates on last season's team and that part of his motivation in leading the NBA in scoring was to protect his image as one of the league's elite players.

"Some nights I did slack off -- and I knew that was a terrible thing to do -- and I still was slacking off"

link (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=89404)
link (http://www.basketballforum.com/orlando-magic/134357-t-mac-admits-he-slacked-off.html)
link (http://www.clublakers.com/the-graveyard/mcgrady-slacked-off-didn-trust-teammates-t24747.html)


and sorry but he quit on the Rockets too.

Do you not remember when he announced he was getting season ending surgery and the Rockets organization, Rick Adleman and his teammates were pissed the hell off b/c he did not tell any of them before he made the announcement?

link (http://blog.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2009/02/tracy-mcgrady-announces-his-season-is-over-and-the-rockets-arent-happy/)

and its not like the Houston fans didn't notice he was giving up either

The Day T-Mac Lost The City of Houston (http://www.clutchfans.net/news/1545/the_day_t-mac_lost_houston/)

That is textbook quitting. He clearly wasn't trying and clearly didn't care.

[Dwade305]

Was just reading about how the Mavs-Rockets series in 05 iirc was fixed :eek: according to Donaghy. Don't know if that has any truth to it, but if it does, that means T-Mac could have been in the secound round :facepalm
Look at this shit:facepalm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va8EukbuAwU

[28renyoy]

:facepalm Both Iverson and T-Mac were better than your gay lover Durant.

which is why Durant won half as many playoffs series last year as Iverson/McGrady combined to win in 25 years

[kentatm]

Look at this shit:facepalm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va8EukbuAwU

:lol @ all of the crying in that series about moving picks when they are BLATANT moving picks.

I'm sorry, but it just does not make any kind of sense that Stern would want Dallas to beat Houston.

[HylianNightmare]

Now with TMac this can go either way like hyliannightmare mentioned. Early in his Magic and Rockets days, he seemed to be a lock for the hall of fame, but injuries crippled him big time. Now with the Pistons if he can slowly get back to form and win a playoff round, then no doubt he would get my vote for the HOF.


this, if he could come back and be a decent role player and get a couple more seasons in and make it into the playoffs i believe his chances would improve greatly

[knickswin]

I agree with the guys above. I think it's possible he still has it in him to join the Bulls or something like that and be the second best player on some good playoff runs.

[rodman91]

which is why Durant won half as many playoffs series last year as Iverson/McGrady combined to win in 25 years

Durant has superior cast compared to their prime years.Also Iverson made finals.