How far short of GOAT consideration is Shaq?

[west_tip]

What else would he need on his resume to have a legit GOAT case, ie. would 2 x more rings sufficed. Also, how high can Shaq be rated on a best case scenario type basis, giving him the benefit of all doubt?

Lastly, did Shaq overachieve, underachieve or did his career pan out more or less how it was supposed to?

[Richesly]

Who cares!? LOCKOUT IS OVER!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[west_tip]

Who cares!? LOCKOUT IS OVER!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:cheers:
:applause:
:bowdown:

[Shade8780]

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/dancing/tumblr_l7qse5wJZ31qaqggd.gif

[G.O.A.T]

Not far. His peak puts him in the conversation because at his best he is arguably as good as any player has ever been.

However he is not someone I consider for the top spot for the following reasons...

1) Wasted prime years. Being out of shape or not in harmony with his coaches/teammates cost him, that's not acceptable if a player of equal credentials/ability has set a higher standard as Jordan and Russell have for me. Both players took their teams as far as they could possibly go in every healthy full season they played.

2) Inconsistent dominance bourne out of worth ethic. Shaq could have had a five or so year run as the insanely dominant player he was for 2000 and most of 2001 but first immaturity and second lack of discipline squelched that chance. Again Russell and Jordan never let those flaws arise and deter them.

3) Hung on to long. This is a personal thing, but seeing 1989 Kareem or 1990whatever Moses or Toronto Raptor Hakeem is unsettling. Shaq post-Phoenix was a disaster. On occasion when a team dedicated their offense to his strengths he was efficient and effective, but otherwise he was a liability. That sucked. Russell and Jordan went out on top, even Wizard MJ was still a top 20-30 player in the league.

I love Shaq, I'll always take his side over Kobe and he may very well be the last GREAT center for a long, if not all-time. A player of his make-up would dominate in any era, physically he held a greater advantage over his peers than anyone in my opinion and only Wilt rivals him in that regard. I have often been tempted to rank him as high as fourth all-time, I struggle with him, Wilt and Kareem. He deserves to get the nod based on consistency during his peak, but those other guys were so much better for the rest of their primes and more importantly hold a defensive edge over Shaq that is more significant than any other distinction relevant to the conversation. At worst, Shaq is the ninth greatest player ever.

[iamgine]

In order to remove all doubt as GOAT, I think the following is what's missing in his career:

1. At least 2 rings against 90s competitions.
2. 65+ FT%.
3. Be a better leader and teammate.

[west_tip]

Thanks for that answer GOAT.

I see your point regarding Cavs/Celtics Shaq. In some regards it taints your memory of a player to see them as an old, washed up has been reduced to role player status.

[WillC]

I agree with GOAT.

However, I'm grateful that Shaq played a couple of extra years. It allowed me to see him play before he retired (I travelled to Boston from the UK to see Shaq's debut for the Celtics... which also happened to be LeBron's debut for the Heat, and I got to speak to the players in the locker room).

[Real Men Wear Green]

3 MVP awards. The way MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, etc piled them up you have to win a lot of them to truly be in the discussion. Also, I'm not sure about this but I don't think he has any full-season or career major records, which isn't that important but it sounds impressive when we say that MJ had the highest career ppg, Jabbar was the top career scorer, Chamberlain once averaged 50, etc.

[PTB Fan]

A case can be made for Shaq, but his case is hurt by lack of work ethic, laziness and wasted some years of his prime. Additionally, his latter years weren't really needed because he should have retired earlier IMO.

[kurt_rambis]

agreed with G.O.A.T. that he hung on too long. shaq's last 6 seasons did way more to hurt his legacy than help it, while by comparison kareem's last 6-7 years (even in his diminished role) helped solidify him as a top 5 player of all time

also, out of the 20 seasons he played, only in 7 of them did he manage to play at least 70 games. whether that was do to laziness of legitimate injury, who knows. but it definitely hurts his legacy

[Carbine]

3 MVP awards. The way MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, etc piled them up you have to win a lot of them to truly be in the discussion. Also, I'm not sure about this but I don't think he has any full-season or career major records, which isn't that important but it sounds impressive when we say that MJ had the highest career ppg, Jabbar was the top career scorer, Chamberlain once averaged 50, etc.

Terrible post. Don't listen to this nonsense.

[ILLsmak]

In order to remove all doubt as GOAT, I think the following is what's missing in his career:

1. At least 2 rings against 90s competitions.
2. 65+ FT%.
3. Be a better leader and teammate.

lol, I love these criteria; so random...

I don't think Shaq is the GOAT, but I think he's definitely a top player and I think that he could be considered for GOAT at the C position. Who is better than Shaq at the C? Maybe nobody. People were afraid to face Shaq, all of the contending teams picked up big bodies just to throw at Shaq.

People say Shaq needed a top tier SG to win, but he didn't. He only needed a team of role players that could consistently hit jumpers. If his team makes jumpers, he wins. That's why I hate when people compare players and say so and so won but so and so didn't. Well, the role players have to step up, too. Shaq got his team great shots it's just a lot of the time they didn't make them.

One more thing, everyone always talks about Shaq not being a good leader or teammate, but he's a 30 ppg big man in a low scoring era. All of the big men that he played with I'm sure thought he was a good teammate. It's just that there were all-star twos that didn't get along with him because they weren't used to being challenged by another player.

-Smak

[ThaRegul8r]

His peak puts him in the conversation because at his best he is arguably as good as any player has ever been.

If one creates two lists, one for peak and one for career as Bill James did for baseball, then Shaq would rank high on the former, but I'm still wrestling with where I would ultimately rank him career-wise.


However he is not someone I consider for the top spot for the following reasons...

1) Wasted prime years. Being out of shape or not in harmony with his coaches/teammates cost him, that's not acceptable if a player of equal credentials/ability has set a higher standard as Jordan and Russell have for me. Both players took their teams as far as they could possibly go in every healthy full season they played.

This is a big point for me. Just restricting talk to the center position, never in his life would Russell do anything which would result in the premature breakup of a dynasty. This is inexcusable to me. I penalize both him AND Kobe for this, and they both get docked in my all-time rankings because of it.

[QUOTE]Shaquille O'Neal and Lakers could have done so much more

Yes, O'Neal and Kobe Bryant teamed for three championships, but their differences, and Shaq's issues with owner Jerry Buss, cost them the ultimate glory.

The retirement announcement was made on a grainy video shot in his Orlando home and sent to the world through a social media service.

So typical of Shaquille O'Neal, it was cute, cutting edge

[ThaRegul8r]

2) Inconsistent dominance bourne out of worth ethic. Shaq could have had a five or so year run as the insanely dominant player he was for 2000 and most of 2001 but first immaturity and second lack of discipline squelched that chance. Again Russell and Jordan never let those flaws arise and deter them.


Off the Glass
Why isn't Shaq the most dominant O'Neal in the league?
Posted: Thursday March 11, 2004 8:19PM; Updated: Thursday March 11, 2004 8:19PM

A few years back, OTG engaged in a vigorous debate with SI.com's own Jennifer Cooper about the talent of a certain NBA giant named Shaquille O'Neal. Having watched the Daddy plow over helplessly outsized opponents in her SEC stomping grounds, Jennifer was of the opinion that O'Neal was little more than a bully, using his tremendous size advantage to seemingly score at will and control the paint.

Hogwash, said a young(er) OTG; no matter the size, a person must have some level of talent to understand how to use his bulk effectively. The league is littered with the memories of Mark Eaton or Gheorge Muresan, giants who played nice complementary roles but never displayed the game-changing ability of Shaq.

On the debate raged, over the course of days, weeks, months, years, neither one of us giving into the other's argument.

Ms. Cooper, can I change my answer?

Maybe change is too strong a word. Amend might be more appropriate. As dominant as everyone tells us Shaq is, there is something missing, that sense of wow. I'm not looking for a skywalking dunk or a behind-the-back pass. I'm talking about putting up the kind of statistics that create headlines: 40 points for five games in a row or 23-rebound nights, triple doubles in points, rebounds and blocks, things that Shaq just doesn't do.

True, Shaq did do those sorts of things when he came into the league, but OTG has always had the sense that the Daddy didn't have the drive to excel in hoops to his full, monstrous potential.

As the years have added up, Shaq has increasingly picked his spots as to when he wants to dominate. Recall last year when Shaq didn't opt for toe surgery until late in the offseason, guaranteeing him a late start to the regular season.

Or look at his numbers this year: 22 ppg (a career low) and 10.8 rpg. Heck, this season, on a pound-for-pound basis, Shaq isn't even the best O'Neal in the NBA.

Indiana's Jermaine has averaged 20.6 ppg, 10.3 rpg and 2.6 bpg carrying 98 fewer pounds and measuring three inches shorter. Sure, Shaq is hitting nearly 60 percent of his shots, compared to Jermaine's 43 percent, but shouldn't the league's most dominant player, a two-time Finals MVP, own more than one statistical category?

Heck, yes, he should, especially in a season in which injuries to Karl Malone and Kobe Bryant have left the Daddy with no more offensive options than he has had in the past. I understand Shaq tries to preserve himself for the postseason, but he plays on cruise control far too often, a habit that will leave the Lakers without home court in the playoffs' later rounds.

While O'Neal has always been a sometimes indifferent defender, his lack of focus has drifted toward his offensive game lately. How does someone of Shaq's size fail to score 20 points or pull down more than five boards against Jahidi White of the Suns? Samuel Dalembert may show signs of being a solid center for Philly but should a rookie be able to restrain Shaq to 17 points, eight rebounds and a single block? Do you catch my drift? Seventeen, eight and one are fine numbers but the Daddy is capable of so much more, it's a pity he doesn't do more.

By all accounts he cannot be guarded when he wants to get to the hoop. Far too many times, though, he is, and guarded out of relevance for long stretches of games. That's the reason I can write a column like this and be reasonably certain that children will not throw eggs at stately OTG Manor. That's the reason the Lakers need a one-shouldered Kobe Bryant to bail them out in the fourth quarter. And, finally, it's the reason I suspect I may finally have lost that old debate.

Stuff like this (among others) is why I have problems ranking him outside of his peak. It's why I'm ambivalent when it comes to Shaq, and why I haven't decided yet where he should rank on my list. I've been considering points various Shaq supporters have said and mulling it over, but I still haven't made up my mind.


At worst, Shaq is the ninth greatest player ever.

Agreed.

[32Dayz]

lol 9th..

The only players you can legitmately argue have a case over Shaq are.

Jordan, Kareem and maybe Magic/Wilt.

He is at worst the 5th greatest player ever.

How many players were as consistently Dominant and excellent in the playoffs year after year. I mean he was playing at a GOAT level in the playoffs in 94,95,96,98,00,01,02,03,04. and also in a few series b4 they were eliminated in 97.

Was still one of the better players in the league in 05 and 06 (he was the MVP of the 05 Regular Season)

was a 20/10 guy in 06 all the way up until the Finals where he took a backseat to Wade and was absolutely Dominant in the Chicago and Detroit series.

The only players who can even compare to Shaq in terms of such excellence year after year in the playoffs are Jordan and Kareem.

And Honestly Kareem didn't have his consistent or dominance and in the middle of his Prime actually failed to miss the playoffs. Shaq consistently led his teams to 50+ wins and when they lost he was still usually the best player in those series.

I'll post a thread soon detailing his play in the 90's.

As for rebounding he was always in the top 2-3 in the league in comparison to his peers. The idea that he could be called bad rebounder is retarded.

He is also #1 in playoff rebounds
(Total, 0ffensive and Defensive)

Has an absurd number of 20 rebound games in the regular season and playoffs.

[ThaRegul8r]

lol 9th..

He said "at worst." As in, the absolute worst Shaq can be ranked factoring all his flaws and shortcomings, is 9th.


The only players you can legitmately argue have a case over Shaq are Jordan, Kareem and maybe Magic/Wilt.

Magic is a definite, not a "maybe" for me. Arguably GOAT offensive player, mismatch problem, second only to Russell in leading his team to consistent success (9 Finals, 5 titles). He didn't do stupid crap to prematurely end a dynasty. Only an injury ruined his opportunity to threepeat, but that's how it goes. Russell's no question ahead, but people who only look at volume scoring and basketball-reference will never understand.

[DuMa]

4000 FTs

[rodman91]

"There is only one god and Pippen is his prophet."

:cheers:

[32Dayz]

As great as Magic was 0ffensively I think Shaq is the GOAT 0ffensive player.

He was one of if not the best ever in the way he impacted opposing defenses and his ability to make players around him better.

Also was a great defensive anchor which Magic was not.

I think Shaq had a better Prime then Magic and obviously better longevity. I rank him ahead of both Magic and Bird.

[ThaRegul8r]

As for rebounding he was always in the top 2-3 in the league in comparison to his peers. The idea that he could be called bad rebounder is retarded.

He is also #1 in playoff rebounds
(Total, 0ffensive and Defensive)

That's a lie. Russell is #1 in playoff rebounds. Shaq retired third behind Russell and Chamberlain. When I catch people lying in support of whatever player they're stanning/fanboying for, I have a tendency not to take anything they say seriously, since if people will lie once, they'll lie again when it suits their agenda.

[32Dayz]

It wasn't a lie.. it was mistake.
Still #1 for this Generation.

Why would I lie about something that can easily be looked up in 5 seconds? :facepalm

I respect you Lauber but dont be so sensitive.. I respect all players and I dont stan for anyone.

And he is #1 in 0ffensive rebounds although Wilt may have been better they just didnt track them back in the day.

[JMT]

Well, he's no better than the 4th center ever. Then there's Jordan to consider and Magic was pretty clearly a more impactful player.

So 6th at best, though I have him closer to the 9-11 slot.

Loved Shaq. Very entertaining, awe inspiring when at his best, and it was good to see a guy actually playing the center position in the NBA the way it was meant to be played.

Problem is, he was one of the very few. Played in a weak era of bigs throughout the majority of his career.

Never a great rebounder, especially considering the above. People here like to call him "the most dominant player" etc, but did he ever win a rebound title? Averaged just over 10 per game for his career, and didn't eclipse the 10 per gm mark since his first season in Miami.

An ok defender. Not a great shot blocker, and a liability defending the pick and roll through much of his career. Heavier he got the slower he got.

Which leads us to his lack of commitment to the game and conditioning. The last half dozen years...actually beginning the last two seasons in LA...he didn't work to stay in shape. Tried to use the regular season to get in shape for the playoffs in LA, which failed miserably. After that he barely made an effort as his hot dog neck turned into bratwurst.

Great interview. At his best a fantastic player. But not near the player the big 3 (Wilt, Russell, KAJ) were.

[32Dayz]

An ok defender. Not a great shot blocker

What a retard. :facepalm

The only Center who can be considered better then Shaq is Kareem.

The only Centers that have near his longevity are Duncan/Kareem and only Kareem is better in that sense.

Shaq has arguably the best Prime of any player ever and best 5 year stretch 98-02.

Shaq is the most unstoppable and effective 0ffensive player in league history.

The only Centers who were better defensively were Hakeem/ Russell.
I'd give Duncan a small edge also but they were pretty much equal in defensive impact when comparing Young and Prime years.

Shaq was one of the best shot blockers ever, best M2M Defenders ever from his position and at controlling the paint and protecting the rim.

He wasn't the best ever at PNR defense but he was certainly not poor at it in his Young and Prime years and it was not a liability of his.

Shaq is at "Worst" #5 on the GOAT list behind Jordan/Kareem/Wilt/Magic.
Personally I think he was better then Kareem at both ends of the floor and he was a far better rebounder.

Kareem has slightly better longevity and won more due to luck + supporting Casts but I do not think he was the better player.
Bill won alot but cmon as an individual player he isnt better then Shaq/Kareem/Wilt/Hakeem and should not be ranked ahead of them.

Jordan > Shaq > Kareem > Wilt and on we go..

[JMT]

Shaq is the most unstoppable and effective 0ffensive player in league history.



Ever hear of Wilt?

[305Baller]

What else would he need on his resume to have a legit GOAT case, ie. would 2 x more rings sufficed. Also, how high can Shaq be rated on a best case scenario type basis, giving him the benefit of all doubt?

Lastly, did Shaq overachieve, underachieve or did his career pan out more or less how it was supposed to?


Shaq underachived. He was THIS CLOSE to honing his game to GOAT status but his bad habits cost him time and his body slowed too quickly for him to get to the next level. Still 2nd best all-time center..

[32Dayz]

Ever hear of Wilt?

Shaq was a better 0ffensive player.

Adjusting for pace (which matters obviously) Shaq always scores on better or at worst equal volume in the playoffs on significantly better efficiency.

The 3 best Scorers/0ffensive players in NBA History are
Jordan/Kareem and Shaq.

Wilt is probably right after those guys but he is clearly behind them (imo).

[JMT]

Shaq was a better 0ffensive player.

Adjusting for pace (which matters obviously) Shaq always scores on better or at worst equal volume in the playoffs on significantly better efficiency.

The 3 best Scorers/0ffensive players in NBA History are Jordan/Kareem/Shaq.

You keep relying on that one stat on which you always hang your hat.

Your analysis of players shows pretty clearly that you need the help.

And grow up. Most others appear capable of having these discussions without calling people names. Nothing less impressive than an internet tough guy.

[32Dayz]

You keep relying on that one stat on which you always hang your hat.

Your analysis of players shows pretty clearly that you need the help.

ok so lets just ignore the amount of shots a player took, the pace of the game when he played and so many other factors because the only thing that matters is JMT's personal opinion.

Even though I have seen JMT post many times before and know he is personally biased against Oneal and dislikes him.

:applause:

[Pointguard]

It wasn't a lie.. it was mistake.
Still #1 for this Generation.

Why would I lie about something that can easily be looked up in 5 seconds? :facepalm

I respect you Lauber but dont be so sensitive.. I respect all players and I dont stan for anyone.

And he is #1 in 0ffensive rebounds although Wilt may have been better they just didnt track them back in the day.

You a funny dude. You know full well that isn't Jlauder.

[JMT]

ok so lets just ignore the amount of shots a player took, the pace of the game when he played and so many other factors because the only thing that matters is JMT's personal opinion.

Even though I have seen JMT post many times before and know he is personally biased against Oneal and dislikes him.

:applause:

Dislikes him? Only in comparison to better players. :applause:

[32Dayz]

You a funny dude. You know full well that isn't Jlauder.

Well whatever I got them mixed up.

Forgive me.

They are both the main Wilt fans of this forum.

[JMT]

Well whatever I got them mixed up.

Forgive me.

They are both the main Wilt fans of this forum.

It was inevitable that somebody that's followed the game for more than 10 years was going to show up sometime.

[32Dayz]

It was inevitable that somebody that's followed the game for more than 10 years was going to show up sometime.

I've been following the game since 94.

So that's... what 18 years?

[Pointguard]

Not far. His peak puts him in the conversation because at his best he is arguably as good as any player has ever been.

However he is not someone I consider for the top spot for the following reasons...

1) Wasted prime years. Being out of shape or not in harmony with his coaches/teammates cost him, that's not acceptable if a player of equal credentials/ability has set a higher standard as Jordan and Russell have for me. Both players took their teams as far as they could possibly go in every healthy full season they played.

2) Inconsistent dominance bourne out of worth ethic. Shaq could have had a five or so year run as the insanely dominant player he was for 2000 and most of 2001 but first immaturity and second lack of discipline squelched that chance. Again Russell and Jordan never let those flaws arise and deter them.

3) Hung on to long. This is a personal thing, but seeing 1989 Kareem or 1990whatever Moses or Toronto Raptor Hakeem is unsettling. Shaq post-Phoenix was a disaster. On occasion when a team dedicated their offense to his strengths he was efficient and effective, but otherwise he was a liability. That sucked. Russell and Jordan went out on top, even Wizard MJ was still a top 20-30 player in the league.

I love Shaq, I'll always take his side over Kobe and he may very well be the last GREAT center for a long, if not all-time. A player of his make-up would dominate in any era, physically he held a greater advantage over his peers than anyone in my opinion and only Wilt rivals him in that regard. I have often been tempted to rank him as high as fourth all-time, I struggle with him, Wilt and Kareem. He deserves to get the nod based on consistency during his peak, but those other guys were so much better for the rest of their primes and more importantly hold a defensive edge over Shaq that is more significant than any other distinction relevant to the conversation. At worst, Shaq is the ninth greatest player ever.
:cheers: This

[32Dayz]

#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

------------------------------------------------------------

#3.
Wilt Chamberlain : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31.3
Top 5 : 28.36
Top 7 : 27.59
Top 10 : 25.46
Top 13 : 22.8

------------------------------------------------------------

#5.
Kareem : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32.4
Top 5 : 27.4
Top 7 : 25.64
Top 10 : 25.42
Top 13 : 24.7
14th to 16th Season (3 Seasons) - 20.9
Last 2 Seasons : 12.85 (26.65 MPG)

:applause:

What is this BS about Kareem or Wilt or any other Center having a better or longer Prime???

[Pointguard]

I would say that he should have it so that his career didn't overlap with Jordan's. That would help too.

[JMT]

I've been following the game since 94.

So that's... what 18 years?

So you've seen all one of the players in this discussion. Great!

Your math is almost as good as your player analysis.

[32Dayz]

So you've seen all one of the players in this discussion. Great!

Not every NBA fan is 75 years old and has seen all the ATGreats.

I've watched all the video footage available publicly of Magic/Bird and the old time players.

I guess being 22 I am too young to be an NBA fan?

:facepalm

Your an idiot.

[JMT]

Not every NBA fan is 75 years old and has seen all the ATGreats.

I've watched all the video footage available publicly of Magic/Bird and the old time players.

I guess being 22 I am too young to be an NBA fan?



Nope, but it sure doesn't qualify you to speak as an expert on players that you never saw play.

Everybody's entitled to opinions. But when yours consists pretty much solely of one stat that you've hand selected...and is delivered complete with calling those who disagree "retard" and "idiot"...it pretty much diminishes the value of anything you've got to say.

Hell, at 22 you want to claim "following" the NBA as a four year old? You didn't even see Shaq's whole career.

[32Dayz]

Nope, but it sure doesn't qualify you to speak as an expert on players that you never saw play.

Everybody's entitled to opinions. But when yours consists pretty much solely of one stat that you've hand selected...and is delivered complete with calling those who disagree "retard" and "idiot"...it pretty much diminishes the value of anything you've got to say.

Hell, at 22 you want to claim "following" the NBA as a four year old? You didn't even see Shaq's whole career.

I've been following Shaq since 94, he has been my favorite player since then till now.

And I have made plenty of arguments outside of PER, your just biased and dont want to understand or accept them because you are already dead set in your hateful opinions of him.

Anyway I am done in this thread, I expressed my opinions have fun.

[JMT]

I've been following Shaq since 94, he has been my favorite player since then till now.

.

:roll: And since he's not my favorite, I'm biased?

Are you sure you're 22?

[ThaRegul8r]

I see this was edited in afterwards:


Why would I lie about something that can easily be looked up in 5 seconds? :facepalm

Conversely, why would you make a mistake about something that can easily be looked up in 5 seconds?

:confusedshrug:

In my experience, enthusiastic fans of certain players don't let facts get in the way, and frequently make assertions without verifying their validity. Since it is so easily looked up, there's really no excuse for it.



You a funny dude. You know full well that isn't Jlauder.

Well whatever I got them mixed up.

Forgive me.

They are both the main Wilt fans of this forum.

Yet another "mistake." I am not jlauber, as Pointguard already said, and I am not one of "the main Wilt fans of this forum." I am neither a "Wilt fan," nor a "Wilt hater/detractor." I find this dichotomy irritating, that one must either be a stan or a hater. One can't impartially discuss a player since impartial/unbiased/agendaless discussion occurs so infrequently here.

[32Dayz]

I am not one of "the main Wilt fans of this forum." I am neither a "Wilt fan"

I know who "you" are.

Dont feed me that obvious and "MASSIVE' lie.

:facepalm

You are a huge Wilt fan and have been for a very long time.

I am familiar with your posts on RealGM and other forums.

There is nothing wrong with that either so I dont see why you'd try to cover it up.

[ThaRegul8r]

I know who "you" are.

Dont feed me that obvious and "MASSIVE' lie.

:facepalm

You are a huge Wilt fan and have been for a very long time.

I am familiar with your posts on RealGM and other forums.

There is nothing wrong with that either so I dont see why you'd try to cover it up.

:confusedshrug:

I find it ironic, considering the fact that I have been lumped into the category of "Wilt haters" on this very board, and now I'm "a huge Wilt fan."

:oldlol:

Funny.

Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. As a long-time basketball fan and student of basketball history, I respect that. I have posted when certain things have been said because I dislike falsehoods being stated, but for the most part, there are people like jlauber and PHILA to address most things Wilt-related. I am neutral. I have spoken for Wilt on certain occasions, and I've also spoken against him on certain occasions. I have no particular agenda either way, I just call it as I see it. I am now certain though, that you aren't in fact "familiar with my posts on RealGM and other forums."

[OldSchoolBBall]

3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.

[ThaRegul8r]

3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.

Eh, for me it's more of an attitudinal adjustment than simply more accolades or more stats. If his attitude about certain things had been different, then everything else would have come along with it. If his attitude had been different, then he could have gotten more MVPs and more titles "as the #1 option." For me at least, he would have needed to change the underlying problem.

[tpols]

Eh, for me it's more of an attitudinal adjustment than simply more accolades or more stats. If his attitude about certain things had been different, then everything else would have come along with it. If his attitude had been different, then he could have gotten more MVPs and more titles "as the #1 option." For me at least, he would have needed to change the underlying problem.
Yea.. He's actually extremely lucky to have won as much as he didin the first place. 2000 and 2002 were pretty lucky. 2006 was very lucky. Although I guess you could say he could have won it in 03 and 04.

[Big164]

One ring and 2 points on his scoring Average.



He would have the extra ring if Kobe didnt ballhog in 2004.

He would easily have the 2 points(25.69 ppg) if he practiced more from the FT line.

[JMT]

:confusedshrug:

I find it ironic, considering the fact that I have been lumped into the category of "Wilt haters" on this very board, and now I'm "a huge Wilt fan."

:oldlol:

Funny.

Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. As a long-time basketball fan and student of basketball history, I respect that. I have posted when certain things have been said because I dislike falsehoods being stated, but for the most part, there are people like jlauber and PHILA to address most things Wilt-related. I am neutral. I have spoken for Wilt on certain occasions, and I've also spoken against him on certain occasions. I have no particular agenda either way, I just call it as I see it. I am now certain though, that you aren't in fact "familiar with my posts on RealGM and other forums."

Remember, Shaq's been his favorite player since he was 4 years old, cemented when he went to see Kazaam! at age 6...but everybody else is biased.

[Carbine]

3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.

What does MVP's have to do with anything for Shaq? Anyone who watched him play knows he deserves a few more MVP awards than what he currently has, which is one.

So him not having extra MVP awards doesn't impact his legacy at all. You can't let an award voted on by media determine your ability to be considered in the discussion for GOAT when they pretty clearly got it wrong with regards to Shaq.

[32Dayz]

Shaq as a playoff performer based on Production/Intangibles and Performances is easily the 2nd greatest player of all time after Jordan.

lol at people thinking he needs more titles to be the GOAT.

if not for the failure of his teammates in 95 and the sabotage of Kobe in 04 he'd have 6 Rings and 5FMVP's.

His resume speaks for itself at this point.

Outside of Jordan no one can touch him as a playoff performer and his Prime and best 5 year stretch and 7 year stretch and 10 and 13 year stretch in the playoffs are superior to everyone besides Jordan.

From 94-06 There has only been maybe 1-2 playoff series where they were eliminated and he wasn't the best player in the series. I am talking 97 and 99.

Shaq and Jordan are the two greatest players ever.


#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

The lowest Shaq should ever be ranked without looking like a fool is #5.

[Doctor Rivers]

Shaq and Jordan are the two greatest players ever.


This seals it

[32Dayz]

This seals it

Thanks Doc, you always know best. :cheers:

[G.O.A.T]

This was on the way to be a good thread, but we let 32 dayz ruin it. Please ignore him, he is obviously trying to troll/argue or is an idiot. Either way he should be ignored.

To further my way point of view, imagine Shaq with Kobe's work ethic and his own personality. Or imagine Shaq with MJ or Magic or Bird or Russell's approach...WOW!

[OldSchoolBBall]

What does MVP's have to do with anything for Shaq? Anyone who watched him play knows he deserves a few more MVP awards than what he currently has, which is one.

So him not having extra MVP awards doesn't impact his legacy at all. You can't let an award voted on by media determine your ability to be considered in the discussion for GOAT when they pretty clearly got it wrong with regards to Shaq.

Err, no. You can say that about many great players. Unfortunately, to be ranked highly on the GOAT list, you need several MVP's.

[32Dayz]

:rant

No lets ignore people like you who cant property appreciate the greatness of Shaqs Career because you think he should have been better then he was.

:facepalm

If you cant handle facts that isnt my problem.

Shaq is a GOAT candidate with his current career and at the very worst a top 5 goat player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not far. His peak puts him in the conversation because at his best he is arguably as good as any player has ever been.

However he is not someone I consider for the top spot for the following reasons...

1) Wasted prime years. Being out of shape or not in harmony with his coaches/teammates cost him, that's not acceptable if a player of equal credentials/ability has set a higher standard as Jordan and Russell have for me. Both players took their teams as far as they could possibly go in every healthy full season they played.

2) Inconsistent dominance bourne out of worth ethic. Shaq could have had a five or so year run as the insanely dominant player he was for 2000 and most of 2001 but first immaturity and second lack of discipline squelched that chance. Again Russell and Jordan never let those flaws arise and deter them.

3) Hung on to long. This is a personal thing, but seeing 1989 Kareem or 1990whatever Moses or Toronto Raptor Hakeem is unsettling. Shaq post-Phoenix was a disaster. On occasion when a team dedicated their offense to his strengths he was efficient and effective, but otherwise he was a liability. That sucked. Russell and Jordan went out on top, even Wizard MJ was still a top 20-30 player in the league.

I love Shaq, I'll always take his side over Kobe and he may very well be the last GREAT center for a long, if not all-time. A player of his make-up would dominate in any era, physically he held a greater advantage over his peers than anyone in my opinion and only Wilt rivals him in that regard. I have often been tempted to rank him as high as fourth all-time, I struggle with him, Wilt and Kareem. He deserves to get the nod based on consistency during his peak, but those other guys were so much better for the rest of their primes and more importantly hold a defensive edge over Shaq that is more significant than any other distinction relevant to the conversation. At worst, Shaq is the ninth greatest player ever.

Agree with pretty much everything here. I rank Shaq higher than most, but don't think he's a legit candidate for best ever. I consider there to be 3 players who I can see why people who know about them can rank them number 1 without bias. And this is of course accounting for different criterias, but the 3 players who I see with a case are Jordan, Kareem and Russell. Unless you're going purely by peak, then I don't see Shaq's case.

[Odinn]

If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;

His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18) / 16105 rebounds / 5248 asissts / 1025 steals / 2915 blocks / 2087 turnovers
26.4 ppg / 12.1 rpg / 4.0 apg / 1.0 spg / 2.9 bpg / 3.0 tpg / 0.562 fg% / 0.720 ft%

His playoff numbers;
4912 points / 2168 rebounds / 676 asissts / 161 steals / 393 blocks / 339 turnovers
27.3 ppg / 12.0 rpg / 3.8 apg / 1.2 spg / 2.8 bpg / 3.0 tpg / 0.541 fg% / 0.732 ft%

His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year

In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.

In 1985-86 season, Kareem was at Shaq's retirement age.

As for accomplishments; Kareem would have 4 rings, 2 as the man(clear cut) and 2 as the 1a or 1b and he would still have a case for goat. Shaq has 4 rings, 3 as the man. It's quite clos imo. But Shaq should have won more MVPs to be called GOAT. Kareem won 6 MVPs, Jordan and Russell 5, Wilt 4, Magic and Bird 3. Also he would have better numbers. At least; he had a very good chance to pass 30K points.

As for peaks; Shaq has a case for goat peak but Kareem and Jordan had greater peak than Shaq imo.

As for intangibles; Lack of intangibles... That was the Shaq's biggest problem.

[G.O.A.T]

As for peaks; Shaq has a case for goat peak but Kareem and Jordan had greater peak than Shaq imo.


I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on average teams and never even made it to the finals. Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. During Shaq's peak no one was on his level. There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.

[AI3Anthony]

I think it's so hard to call Shaq the GOAT or compare him to others. He was physically gifted with a 7 foot 300something pound body. He was LITERALLY unstoppable from a physical stand point, then he was also incredibly talented basketball/skill wise. I don't think you can compare him to, lets say Jordan, because thousands of basketball players have Michael Jordans athleticism, but very few have what makes Michael Jordan the best.. the work ethic, the understanding of the game, the clutch factor, the cockiness, the I will do anything to beat you mentality.

I'm not saying Shaq shouldnt be considered, but I think it is SO hard to compare him to others just based on the pure physical ability he was born with that made him so unstoppable.

[jlauber]

I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on average teams and never even made it to the finals. Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. During Shaq's peak no one was on his level. There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.

I actually agree with much of this. I am one of the few here who believes that Kareem's career has been over-rated on the forum. On the other hand, a PEAK Shaq was just overwhelming.

I also believe that a motivated Shaq could have been even more dominant, and for a longer period of time. There was really no excuse for him to have NEVER led the NBA in rebounding, especially when he pounded Mutombo in the Finals one year. To be an athletic 7-1, and 325+ lbs, he should have won SEVERAL rebounding titles. He was also a proven shot-blocker in the post-season (again, he had more blocks than Mutombo in that series), so he should have won at least a couple of shot-blocking titles.

Still, as big as he was, and with the weight he was carrying, he was a marvel. In his "three-peat", he had regular seasons of 40.0 mpg, 39.5 mpg, and a slight dropoff to 36.1 mpg. But, then in the post-season, he averaged 43.5 mpg, 42.3 mpg, and 40.8 mpg.

And the man played for 19 seasons. Granted, he was a shell in his 3-4 years, but for a huge chunk of his career, he was a top-5 player (and IMHO, he was the best player in the game from '98 thru '05.)

I personally have Shaq at #6 on my list (for whatever that is worth), and behind Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. And the more I study their careers, the more I am becoming inclined to give Shaq a slight nod over Kareem for the 5th spot. But for now, I'll keep Kareem at #5.

[OldSchoolBBall]

because thousands of basketball players have Michael Jordans athleticism

Err, try like 3-4 players tops in history at SG/SF. MAYBE. lol @ "thousands." :oldlol:

[Odinn]

I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on average teams and never even made it to the finals. Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. During Shaq's peak no one was on his level. There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.
Oh come on.

Also; like Shaq went to the finals with an average teams, supporting casts?:facepalm

Lastly you can't name an all-time great center which is in his prime during Shaq's championship years. What about that?

[32Dayz]

Oh come on.

Also; like Shaq went to the finals with an average teams, supporting casts?:facepalm

Lastly you can't name an all-time great center which is in his prime during Shaq's championship years. What about that?

Kareem went to the Finals with average teams?

3rd Year Shaq absolutely beasted against Prime Hakeem
29/12.5/6.3/2.5 60%FG

Kareem was

Shaq's 00 Cast was average certainly not one of the better all around Casts in the league that year.

Other Bigmen he destroyed.
DPOY Mutombo.
Wallace Twins.
Duncan + DRob.
Portland Defense...

Who did Kareem have in the 70's?
Willis Reed and Walton?

Shaq proved he could perform at the highest level against the best competition.

[Odinn]

Kareem went to the Finals with average teams?

3rd Year Shaq absolutely beasted against Prime Hakeem
29/12.5/6.3/2.5 60%FG

Other Bigmen he destroyed.
DPOY Mutombo.
Wallace Twins.
Duncan + DRob.
Portland Defense...

Who did Kareem have in the 70's?
Willis Reed and Walton?
You are not even worthed for a reply...

[32Dayz]

You are not even worthed for a reply...

Your average post's are not even worth reading they are so illogical.

Kareem played on some of the most stacked teams ever in LA and along side the greatest PG ever.

Dont think that helped him greatly?

Shaq played with a ballhog SG who although was also a GOAT player certainly didnt benefit him the way Magic did Kareem.

[Odinn]

3rd Year Shaq absolutely beasted against Prime Hakeem
29/12.5/6.3/2.5 60%FG
Look what you wrote and you're still trying. What can I say... Keep trolling.

[32Dayz]

Look what you wrote and you're still trying. What can I say... Keep trolling.

lol?

Guess your one of those Morons who think Hakeem "Dominated" or significantly outplayed Shaq that year.

It's a team game you dont blame a single player for success or failure especially not when that player is playing at a level few players in history have matched.

And you call me a troll.

:facepalm

[inclinerator]

he got 3 rings as the go to guy, if he had 4-5 as a alpha dawg he would be a goat contender + maybe 1 more mvp

[west_tip]

I actually agree with much of this. I am one of the few here who believes that Kareem's career has been over-rated on the forum. On the other hand, a PEAK Shaq was just overwhelming.

I also believe that a motivated Shaq could have been even more dominant, and for a longer period of time. There was really no excuse for him to have NEVER led the NBA in rebounding, especially when he pounded Mutombo in the Finals one year. To be an athletic 7-1, and 325+ lbs, he should have won SEVERAL rebounding titles. He was also a proven shot-blocker in the post-season (again, he had more blocks than Mutombo in that series), so he should have won at least a couple of shot-blocking titles.

Still, as big as he was, and with the weight he was carrying, he was a marvel. In his "three-peat", he had regular seasons of 40.0 mpg, 39.5 mpg, and a slight dropoff to 36.1 mpg. But, then in the post-season, he averaged 43.5 mpg, 42.3 mpg, and 40.8 mpg.

And the man played for 19 seasons. Granted, he was a shell in his 3-4 years, but for a huge chunk of his career, he was a top-5 player (and IMHO, he was the best player in the game from '98 thru '05.)

I personally have Shaq at #6 on my list (for whatever that is worth), and behind Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. And the more I study their careers, the more I am becoming inclined to give Shaq a slight nod over Kareem for the 5th spot. But for now, I'll keep Kareem at #5.

Good post. For the record jlauber who rounds out your top 10? 7 through 10 that is.

[G.O.A.T]

Oh come on.

Also; like Shaq went to the finals with an average teams, supporting casts?

Objectively Kareem's roster with the '78 Lakers is better than the '00 Lakers.

And besides that's not my point. I'm saying the circumstances of Kareem's career were such that during his best individual seasons he had the least talent around him.


Lastly you can't name an all-time great center which is in his prime during Shaq's championship years. What about that?

That's my point. The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

[AI3Anthony]

Err, try like 3-4 players tops in history at SG/SF. MAYBE. lol @ "thousands." :oldlol:

No. A lot of players and athletes around the world possess athleticism close to him. Jordans athleticism isn't what broke him apart from all the others. It was all the intangibles.

[Odinn]

That's my point. The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.
That's why said "oh come on".

Shaq didn't make that difference, it was already there.

I'm not trying to discredit Shaq. His peak was top5 at least and can be called arguably the best. But your this argument is invalid I think.

[G.O.A.T]

Shaq didn't make that difference, it was already there.

What do you mean? Without Shaq creating the gap, it's not there

[Odinn]

What do you mean? Without Shaq creating the gap, it's not there
The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

It's because of Kareem's peers were much better.

[32Dayz]

The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

It's because of Kareem's peers were much better.

Shaq had 2 GOAT Finalz performances against Prime Hakeem and DPOY Mutombo.

Regularly dominated against the Spurs duo of Duncan + DRob.

Dominated the Portland defense.

Destroyed the SAC Kings who had Divac.

Made a mockery out of B.Wallace.

owned Mourning/Ewing etc..

Shaq definitely faced better competition then Kareem and had far worse luck with supporting Casts.

Imagine if Shaq got to play on stacked teams like those showtime Lakers or the Big O or had Magic Johnson setting him up for easy baskets instead of Kobe who at times wouldn't even give him his touches due to selfishness/arrogance.

:facepalm

Who did Kareem have to face? Undersized unseld? Undersized Reed?
Bill Walton for 1 or 2 years? Grandpa Wilt with a broken knee?

Most of the C's Kareem faced were either old, undersized or injury prone.

Prime Shaq was a Tier or two above Prime Kareem.

Peak/Prime wise Jordan and Shaq are clearly the two best ever with maybe Wilt a close 3rd.

[BlackJoker23]

lol at 32gayz getting bitchslapped by everyone in this thread. gotdamn kid youre like the slut that just keeps coming back to get smacked around and jizzed on

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol at 32gayz getting bitchslapped by everyone in this thread. gotdamn kid youre like the slut that just keeps coming back to get smacked around and jizzed on

:roll:

[32Dayz]

:rant :rant :rant

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/Allume-Le-Cirque/Sig/Kobe-U-Mad.jpg

I piss all over you everytime we have a debate, I understand why you hate me. :lol

Not that you can really debate anything with a retarded Troll.

Nice to see Bigalow hopping on the Troll train and assuming his true form.
Must feel good to drop that "Im a real knowledgeable poster act".

[Doctor Rivers]

32gayz

lol nice one.

anyways, the fact that G.O.A.T is ignoring him is all you need to know

[32Dayz]

lol nice one. <--- :facepalm

The fact that G.O.A.T is ignoring him is all you need to know

Ask me how much I care?

:violin:

[BlackJoker23]

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/Allume-Le-Cirque/Sig/Kobe-U-Mad.jpg

I piss all over you everytime we have a debate, I understand why you hate me. :lol

Not that you can really debate anything with a retarded Troll.

Nice to see Bigalow hopping on the Troll train and assuming his true form.
Must feel good to drop that "Im a real knowledgeable poster act".
kid the only thing u piss on is urself. thats a mouthful of piss everyone sticks down ur throat. u seem to be very experienced in having d1ck stuffed down ur throat and deep throating for extended amounts of time. 32gayz, that username all makes sense now

[32Dayz]

kid the only thing u piss on is urself. thats a mouthful of piss everyone sticks down ur throat. u seem to be very experienced in having d1ck stuffed down ur throat and deep throating for extended amounts of time.

You talk about di**s and c** and cocks alot.
You've made it pretty clear whats on your mind most of the time.

:lol

Come out of the closet F*gJacker23.

[G.O.A.T]

The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

It's because of Kareem's peers were much better.

the first part (in bold) is a fact, the second part is an opinion, guess which one I put more stock in?

[AlphaWolf24]

lol at 32gayz getting bitchslapped by everyone in this thread. gotdamn kid youre like the slut that just keeps coming back to get smacked around and jizzed on

:roll: wait..he has "green bars"...:rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

lol at 32gayz getting bitchslapped by everyone in this thread. gotdamn kid youre like the slut that just keeps coming back to get smacked around and jizzed on
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Odinn]

the first part (in bold) is a fact, the second part is an opinion, guess which one I put more stock in?
You've got to be kidding me...

[32Dayz]

:roll: wait..he has "green bars"...:rolleyes:

Yea.. because the normal posters on ISH rep me for smart and insightful posts while the enormous legion of retarded lobotomized Kobe Stans constantly neg me and bitch over every post I make while shaking their fists with rage.

Do you think anyone respects you people outside of your sick group?? lmao

Especially you and Jacks3 you two are the leaders of the group basically.

:facepalm

[Doctor Rivers]

Out of curiosity, who else (besides 32dayz) here agrees that Shaq is the second GOAT player?

[32Dayz]

Out of curiosity, who else (besides 32dayz) here agrees that Shaq is the second GOAT player?

Dont ask that Doc.

People are too intrentched by judging players based on things like MVP's and Ring's (even though Shaq has 4 of those) instead of judging them based on Career Playoff Production/Intagibals and Performances.

If you judged players correctly based on the bolded area above then Shaq has a very strong case as GOAT or at the worst Top 1-3.

Most people just follow the masses and see he is usually ranked from 4-7 and just follow suit.

Plenty of publications have ranked him higher and some very well respected journalists and ESPN people have ranked him from 1-3 like I do (example : Elliot Kalb").