Starting a Team - Larry Bird or Kobe Bryant

[Duncan21formvp]

Who do you take?

[Bernie Nips]

Larry Bird without thinking twice.

[Kensta]

Larry Legend

[32Dayz]

Larry Bird without thinking twice.

Same.

[Vertical-24]

Prime Kobe.

[mattvNJ]

Prime Kobe.
this

[Pushxx]

Larry Bird. No explanation needed.

[chips93]

bird

im not certain that hes a better player, but he can co-exist with other great players better than kobe can.

[Smoke117]

Larry Bird without thinking twice.

This.

[Collie]

Does this mean I get 23 year old Bird as a rookie, and his career plays out roughly the same, and 17-year old Kobe as well, etc?

If yes, I take Kobe for longevity. Bird only had roughly 10 elite years(79-90 minus 88-89), though his peak was definitely better.

If I get something like a fully healthy Bird as a 21 year old rookie, I'd take him.

[andgar923]

Larry Bird without thinking twice.

this

[G-Funk]

Kobe not just in prime but longevity

[scm5]

Does this mean I get 23 year old Bird as a rookie, and his career plays out roughly the same, and 17-year old Kobe as well, etc?

If yes, I take Kobe for longevity. Bird only had roughly 10 elite years(79-90 minus 88-89), though his peak was definitely better.

If I get something like a fully healthy Bird as a 21 year old rookie, I'd take him.


His peak better by what measure?

His PER (which compares his statistical production to the rest of the league that season) was never as high as Kobe's highest PER.

His stats were inflated during that time by the faster paced game.

His defense was never as good as Kobe's was.

I would choose Kobe because he's a proven winner. Even if he wasn't the primary option on the first championship teams, he was still a HUGE part of it.

Also, Kobe has won with two completely different teams. Not only won titles, but REPEATED, which is a rare thing in of itself. I don't know how much more of a proven winner you want.

On paper, in theory, Bird might be the better option. He produces nice stats. Seems to get along with his teammates. But Kobe is goddamn determined. I would put more faith in Kobe winning a championship than Bird.

[Deuce Bigalow]

depends on if my team needs scoring or a facilitator

[DuMa]

Larry easily.

[Collie]

His peak better by what measure?

His PER (which compares his statistical production to the rest of the league that season) was never as high as Kobe's highest PER.

His stats were inflated during that time by the faster paced game.

His defense was never as good as Kobe's was.

I would choose Kobe because he's a proven winner. Even if he wasn't the primary option on the first championship teams, he was still a HUGE part of it.

Also, Kobe has won with two completely different teams. Not only won titles, but REPEATED, which is a rare thing in of itself. I don't know how much more of a proven winner you want.

On paper, in theory, Bird might be the better option. He produces nice stats. Seems to get along with his teammates. But Kobe is goddamn determined. I would put more faith in Kobe winning a championship than Bird.

PER? I don't put any sort of measure into a stat that says Dwyane Wade had the best finals ever in 2006.

[vinvin01]

I actually think it depends on the team or the city. It looks quiet obvious that Kobe would have requested a trade if he was on a small market, whereas I think Bird would have been loyal to his team no matter the city.

When you think about it, Kobe is the perfect fit in LA, big time scorer, a bit of a diva, LA showtime. Bird was perfect for Boston, hard worker and big time hustle player.

[Jasper]

comparing a legend to Kobe ..

Dear larry -

Sorry for this thread where you were compared to another player ,

Forgive ISH

Kobe

[Go Getter]

Larry.

[bwink23]

Larry Bird if i want to build an actual team.

[Harison]

Larry Bird without thinking once.

Fixed.

[HYJ]

The man who is also been called " Legend"

[DevilsAssassin]

Mr.81

[Bigsmoke]

Bird

[Round Mound]

:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bird would give you both.

:oldlol:

Ya, but people act like Kobe was a better scorer than Bird.

[Legends66NBA7]

In b4 81 points. :lol

Oh they will be coming alright.

<---------------By the way bro... couldn't find a nostalgic one, so I'm waiting on B Low to make a Christmas dec for her.

[christian1923]

the guy with 5 championships

[Deuce Bigalow]

:oldlol:

Ya, but people act like Kobe was a better scorer than Bird.

:oldlol: he was, pretty easily

[christian1923]

yes, Bird is much better.

How is he MUCH better? :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: he was, pretty easily

You're a Kobe blow hard, so yeah, in your mind he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You're a Kobe blow hard, so yeah, in your mind he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

:oldlol: why u mad?
Larry was the better passer and rebounder, but Kobe was the better scorer, dont know why you're upset

[Doctor Rivers]

PER? I don't put any sort of measure into a stat that says Dwyane Wade had the best finals ever in 2006.

i do

[christian1923]

Better shooter, better intangibles, waaaaaaayyy better passer/rebounder, better bball iq, and he was quite capable of scoring a lot when asked to.

and kobes a better scorer and winner.. so i dont see how birdd is way better

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: why u mad?
Larry was the better passer and rebounder, but Kobe was the better scorer, dont know why you're upset

He wasn't the better scorer though, that's the thing. lulz at a sub~44% shooter in the postseason being a better scorer than Bird.

[christian1923]

Bird had three rings as the man. Kobe has two.

But he has 5 rings, and larry bird played on the eastern conference all star team. kobe woulda won more than 3 with those teams. BET THAT!

[Heavincent]

Bird had three rings as the man. Kobe has two.

Bird wouldn't be "the man" either if he played with prime Shaq. Just saying.

And in before 32dayz says that Pau Gasol was the best player on the 2010 Lakers even though he was a very clear B/second option.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'll go with Larry Bird.

[christian1923]

:facepalm

lol your just a kobe hater, every thread his name comes up, you stay trying to put him down. get over it son

[Deuce Bigalow]

He wasn't the better scorer though, that's the thing. lulz at a sub~44% shooter in the postseason being a better scorer than Bird.

1. Kobe doesnt shoot below 44% in the playoffs
2. Kobe takes way more 3 pointers than Bird

[32Dayz]

Prime Bird in the playoffs was putting up 27ppg on 60+% TS and this was way before the new sissy hand check rules were put into place to make it easier for perimeter players like Kobe to be efficient.

Kobe's Career TS% in the Playoffs before the new
Sissy Hand-Check rules = .516%

Bird was a much better scorer.

Like RRR said Bird was a team oriented player who could destroy teams with his passing and didn't need to score 30 a night to absolutely kill teams.

[christian1923]

Typical Kobe stan response. "YOURE JUST A HATER! WAAAAHHH! :cry: "

and you respond like a typical kobe hater.. lol thats why you get called a kobe hater

[Deuce Bigalow]

Best scoring playoff runs

Kobe
32.8 PPG on .561 TS%
32.1 PPG on .531 TS%
30.2 PPG on .567 TS%
30.1 PPG on .577 TS%
29.4 PPG on .555 TS%
29.2 PPG on .567 TS%

Bird
27.5 PPG on .607 TS%
27.0 PPG on .577 TS%
26.0 PPG on .536 TS%
25.9 PPG on .615 TS%
24.5 PPG on .538 TS%
24.4 PPG on .539 TS%

For scoring I give Kobe the edge

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1. Kobe doesnt shoot below 44% in the playoffs
2. Kobe takes way more 3 pointers than Bird

Different ERA, less 3PT. Kinda like the differences in physicality.

45%, Whoop dee f*cking doo. Point is he is far from being better and far from being 'unstoppable'. It's pathethic that this is even a comparison when you factor in Bird's playmaking duties on offense.

[32Dayz]

Decision Making, Passing, BBIQ are all part of scoring and Bird has an enormous edge over Kobe in all of those areas.

Kobe's Average Playoff TS% before the new hand-check rules
is .516%

He could have never sniffed Birds level of efficiency back then as evidenced by how he performed prior to 05.

Bird is the better scorer and its really not debatable.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Decision Making, Passing, BBIQ are all part of scoring and Bird has an enormous edge over Kobe in all of those areas.

Kobe's Average Playoff TS% before the new hand-check rules
is .516%

He could have never sniffed Birds level of efficiency back then as evidenced by how he performed prior to 05.

Bird is the better scorer and its really not debatable.

Get the **** out of here, no one cares

[Deuce Bigalow]

Different ERA, less 3PT. Kinda like the differences in physicality.

45%, Whoop dee f*cking doo. Point is he is far from being better and far from being 'unstoppable'. It's pathethic that this is even a comparison when you factor in Bird's playmaking duties on offense.

Overall, give it to Bird

Scoring, give me Kobe


Best scoring playoff runs

Kobe
32.8 PPG on .561 TS%
32.1 PPG on .531 TS%
30.2 PPG on .567 TS%
30.1 PPG on .577 TS%
29.4 PPG on .555 TS%
29.2 PPG on .567 TS%

Bird
27.5 PPG on .607 TS%
27.0 PPG on .577 TS%
26.0 PPG on .536 TS%
25.9 PPG on .615 TS%
24.5 PPG on .538 TS%
24.4 PPG on .539 TS%


How is Bird a better scorer?

Plus

5,280 Playoff points - 3rd alltime
81 30 point playoff games - 2nd alltime

[32Dayz]

Bigalow = :mad:

[Collie]

Kobe is a better scorer IMO, but don't forget that Bird also played with McHale, Parish, Tiny, DJ, Cornbread, Ainge and a number of guys who could score 20+ any given night. If he wasn't so unselfish and put his mind to it, Bird could have dropped 30ppg regularly (he actually had one season at 29.9ppg).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bird also played with McHale, Parish, Tiny, DJ, Cornbread, Ainge and a number of guys who could score 20+ any given night. If he wasn't so unselfish and put his mind to it, Bird could have dropped 30ppg regularly (he actually had one season at 29.9ppg).

Yep. As scorers, I fully believe Bird at his absolute best just gunning >>> Kobe

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bigalow = :mad:

A retard calling me mad, oh yeah I'm so mad

[32Dayz]

Yep. As scorers, I fully believe Bird at his absolute best just gunning >>> Kobe

Easily. :applause:

Kobe before the hand checking rules is barely above Iverson level efficiency in the playoffs.

Bird has 7 seasons far above Kobe's average Pre-05 Playoff TS% and 3 seasons close to 60% which Kobe cant touch even if you use his seasons after the Sissy-Rules were put into place.

Bird at his Peak is far better then Kobe ever was in pretty much all areas of the game outside of maybe Pure M2M Defense.

[32Dayz]

A retard calling me mad, oh yeah I'm so mad

Your response to that comment confirms it, thank you. :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is a better scorer IMO, but don't forget that Bird also played with McHale, Parish, Tiny, DJ, Cornbread, Ainge and a number of guys who could score 20+ any given night. If he wasn't so unselfish and put his mind to it, Bird could have dropped 30ppg regularly (he actually had one season at 29.9ppg).

I agree

but here is Kobe with Shaq in '01 Playoffs
29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 47 FG%
33.3 PPG, 7 RPG, 7 APG, 51 FG% in the Western Conference Finals
35 PPG, 9 RPG, 4.3 APG, 47 FG% in the Western Semi-Finals

great teammates or not, he still put up points

[32Dayz]

I agree

but here is Kobe with Shaq in '01 Playoffs
29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 47 FG%
33.3 PPG, 7 RPG, 7 APG, 51 FG% in the Western Conference Finals
35 PPG, 9 RPG, 4.3 APG, 47 FG% in the Western Semi-Finals

great teammates or not, he still put up points

"1" year doesn't make a players Career and its pretty easy to score when your rarely doubled and your playing with the best player in the league and the most heavily defended player of All-Time (Prime Shaq).

Spurs had to guard Kobe on single coverage with undersized PG Antonio Daniels.

Not surprised he torched them.
TMac or any other Elite Wing (probably) would have done the same.

[Collie]

I agree

but here is Kobe with Shaq in '01 Playoffs
29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 47 FG%
33.3 PPG, 7 RPG, 7 APG, 51 FG% in the Western Conference Finals
35 PPG, 9 RPG, 4.3 APG, 47 FG% in the Western Semi-Finals

great teammates or not, he still put up points


Well, he is one of the best scorers in NBA history after all.

[32Dayz]

Well, he is one of the best scorers in NBA history after all.

True. :cheers:

Definitely in the 5-15 Range when it comes to GOAT Scorers.

Ahead of bird though? I will say firmly No.

But its probably not a "completely" unreasonable debate.

[Deuce Bigalow]

True. :cheers:

Definitely in the 5-15 Range when it comes to GOAT Scorers.

Ahead of bird though? I will say firmly No.

But its probably not a "completely" unreasonable debate.

I love seeing a retard's list, so what is your best scorer's list alltime?

[Legends66NBA7]

Typical Kobe stan response. "YOURE JUST A HATER! WAAAAHHH! :cry: "

How are you a hater ? Never understand some people.

[Duncan21formvp]

and it aint even close

How is it not close?

[Legends66NBA7]

How is it not close?

Under cover Kobe homer, that's why.

[Duncan21formvp]

Under cover Kobe homer, that's why.
Oh!!!:ohwell:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'll take the guy who won 5 rings with just one other HOFer than the guy that needed 3-5 HOF teammates to win 3

:confusedshrug:

[Duckie MAN]

I'll take the guy who won 5 rings with just one other HOFer than the guy that needed 3-5 HOF teammates to win 3

:confusedshrug:

prime shaq = 3 HOF

[west_tip]

Bird.

I like Kobe, so no knock on him but I just prefer Birds all round game. Bird was a well rounded ball player who could win/influence a game multiple different ways.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

prime shaq = 3 HOF

And how many is Pau Gasol worth :oldlol:

[32Dayz]

And how many is Pau Gasol worth :oldlol:

1.5

[I.R.Beast]

80s statistics are as inflated as inflated can be. Everyone seemingly shot 50%, and the league average in points was 112+ points. Even bottom feeding teams were dropping 110 points a game. Where was the defense?.....


I'd take Kobe over Bird any day and twice on sundays.

[Jacks3]

His peak better by what measure?

His PER (which compares his statistical production to the rest of the league that season) was never as high as Kobe's highest PER.

His stats were inflated during that time by the faster paced game.

His defense was never as good as Kobe's was.

I would choose Kobe because he's a proven winner. Even if he wasn't the primary option on the first championship teams, he was still a HUGE part of it.

Also, Kobe has won with two completely different teams. Not only won titles, but REPEATED, which is a rare thing in of itself. I don't know how much more of a proven winner you want.

On paper, in theory, Bird might be the better option. He produces nice stats. Seems to get along with his teammates. But Kobe is goddamn determined. I would put more faith in Kobe winning a championship than Bird.
This. Kobe is just as efficient,a better scorer, better defender,and way more athletic. Plus, better longevity. Not even close.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So even using those absurd HOF equivalency numbers Kobe won 5 rings with less than 3 HOF teammates while Bird needed 3-5 to win only 3 :oldlol:

[DevilsAssassin]

This. Kobe is just as efficient,a better scorer, better defender,and way more athletic. Plus, better longevity. Not even close.

:bowdown:

Larry Bird in this era = Mike Dunvley

[Jacks3]

Defense in the 80's was just laughably bad. Watch Game 1 of the 87 Finals.

Shit is ****ing disgusting. :oldlol:

[I.R.Beast]

:bowdown:

Larry Bird in this era = Mike Dunvley

Lol....wow...no respect.

[ieballer3]

Defense in the 80's was just laughably bad. Watch Game 1 of the 87 Finals.

Shit is ****ing disgusting. :oldlol:

lol, pretty much...

kobe would've shat all over the league. just watch for how many wide open jumpers are taken compared to a modern game, it's f'n ridiculous.

[Jacks3]

lol, pretty much...

kobe would've shat all over the league. just watch for how many wide open jumpers are taken compared to a modern game, it's f'n ridiculous.
Agreed. Watch how awful the defense is in this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFaz9j8ayzU

Look at how many WIDE-OPEN jumpers Bird is getting. It's laughable.

Put prime Kobe in the 80's and he'd do 34-36/6-7/5-7/2+/57-58% TS no problem.

[rodman91]

http://creaturesfeatures.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/larrybird.jpg

[Lebron23]

Kobe might surpass Bird because of his longetivity, but Peak Bird was the better player.

[Meticode]

Starting a Team - Larry Bird or Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird is one of the best definitions of a team player. Him and Magic help saved the NBA in the 80s in a decline after the ABA merger and Bird wasn't afraid to give up the ball for a better shot. Bird made other players better just by his passing ability and being able to see the game out before it would happen.

It's Bird without a doubt. His basketball IQ was off the charts as well as his 110% effort for every game he ever played, which made up and surpassed him past a lot of great players who had a ton more athleticism than him.

[ballsohard247]

Larry Bird is one of the best definitions of a team player. Him and Magic help saved the NBA in the 80s in a decline after the ABA merger and Bird wasn't afraid to give up the ball for a better shot. Bird made other players better just by his passing ability and being able to see the game out before it would happen.

It's Bird without a doubt. His basketball IQ was off the charts as well as his 110% effort for every game he ever played, which made up and surpassed him past a lot of great players who had a ton more athleticism than him.
But Bird couldn't 360 dunk or cross someone up so clearly Kobe is better.:rolleyes:

[Bernie Nips]

Just out of curiosity, how many times did Bird miss the playoffs?

[bdreason]

Larry Bird.

[Legends66NBA7]

Just out of curiosity, how many times did Bird miss the playoffs?

He never missed the playoffs in 12 healthy seasons (although his last season, he only played in 45 games).

The one season he played only 6 games, the Celtics went 40-36 without him, compared to their previous record of 57-25 (55-21 with Bird in the lineup).

[Durant35]

I pick Larry Bird when I am starting a team. Bird is the Ultimate team player.

[D-Wade316]

Neither.

Both played significantly worse in the playoffs, more so Bird. While Bird has the higher FG% in the playoffs, his game just doesn't translate well in the playoffs. I'd take Kobe over him in terms of scoring. I'd take Bird when it come to facilitating and enough scoring. Overall I'd take Bird since he's a better teammate than Kobe. It's close though.

I'd take Duncan, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, Wade, Lebron, MJ, Kareem, Magic, West, Erving, Baylor, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt over Bird and Kobe. Their game translates better in the post-season where the biggest games happen.

[alenleomessi]

i would probably pick bird over anyone not named jordan, kareem or shaq

[necya]

Larry Bird of course.
anyone who have seen both will take Bird without hesitation.
the other ? regular trolls who deserve the ignore list.

[KingOfTheJokes]

Definitely Bird, with Larry you can win now. With Kobe you have to wait until you find him an elite big to play with.

[ShaqAttack3234]

If you compare '01-'10 Kobe and '80-'88 Bird, then that is an extra year for Kobe. Bird had injuries during the '83 and '85 playoffs while Kobe's '04 season was affected by injuries/off the court problems and '05 was affected by injuries. So a slight longevity and durability edge to Kobe.

Kobe was still one of the best players in the league last season, but I'm not sure he was top 5 last season. Bird had a good comeback year in '90 and played really well as the season went on, but his prime really ended in '88. Still made a big impact in '91 before injuries, Boston started off 26-5, but his body just couldn't hold up anymore.

Based on how they developed, you'd have to wait until Kobe's 5th season until he was elite, while Larry was elite as rookie. But 5th year Kobe was actually younger than Bird. Bird was ready to lead a team right away as his team went from 29-53 to 61-21 in his rookie year and won a title the following season.

As far as young Kobe, I do have questions about how far he's going to take a team since he did look for recognition and have a focus on individual achievements to some extent. So leadership and intangibles edge goes to Bird.

Skills are hard to compare. I'll take Kobe as a scorer, or volume scorer, especially with the ball. But Bird was the better passer, off the ball player and rebounder. 3peat Kobe and 2008 Kobe hold a clear advantage defensively, though his best defensive season(2000) came before he was truly an elite player. During a lot of his prime, I don't think the impact was consistent enough defensively, to give him a considerable edge, particularly since Bird was a very good team defender.

I'll take Bird.


Best scoring playoff runs

Kobe
32.8 PPG on .561 TS%
32.1 PPG on .531 TS%
30.2 PPG on .567 TS%
30.1 PPG on .577 TS%
29.4 PPG on .555 TS%
29.2 PPG on .567 TS%

Bird
27.5 PPG on .607 TS%
27.0 PPG on .577 TS%
26.0 PPG on .536 TS%
25.9 PPG on .615 TS%
24.5 PPG on .538 TS%
24.4 PPG on .539 TS%

For scoring I give Kobe the edge

I do agree with Kobe being the better scorer, certainly the better volume scorer, but the ones in bold are single series and shouldn't be compared to playoff runs to the conference finals or finals.

If you give Kobe the ball and ask him to score 40-50 points, he's more capable than Bird, imo. But Bird was also a better off the ball player and that is advantage in terms of fitting in with a lot of talent. One of the reasons why I don't see Lebron passing Bird on my list.

[brownmamba00]

Probably Bird. But it's close

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Definitely Bird, with Larry you can win now. With Kobe you have to wait until you find him an elite big to play with.

:oldlol:

Which season was it that Larry Bird won anything without an elite big man?

[Jacks3]

Yeah, Pau GaSoft was so elite without Bryant:

Look at his epicness before joining LA:
0 MVP votes
0 All-NBA Teams
1 All-Star appearance
Not even regarded as top 5 at his own position.
Not even regarded as a top 15 player.
Swept in PS three straight seasons
Food for though: Gasol with/without net (team efficiency differential) in Mermhis:
2005 -1.4 (!), 26 games missed
2007 -1.6 (!), 23 games missed



Gasol's RAPM:
2002 -0.3 (221st place)
2003 -0.8 (250th)
2004 -0.2 (150th)
2005 +0.2 (137th)
2006 +1.1 (83rd)
2007 -1.3 (313rd)


So again - before LA his not even top100 during those seasons ;]

2005: 50% W-L% with Gasol, 65.4% without Gasol (26 games missed)
2007: 28.8% with, 21.7% without (23)
2008: 25.6% with, 27.9% without (43)

So it's not a fluke, season after season, large sample in every case and Memhis without Gasol was doing as good as with him.

look at his team record with and without him when he missed an extended stretch in 2005:

With Gasol: 28-28
Without Gasol: 17-9

So "elite" indeed. :oldlol:

[Disaprine]

:roll:

Ive been out of this site for about 5 months and its great to see insidehoops hasn't changed at all. :applause:

[I.R.Beast]

Neither.

Both played significantly worse in the playoffs, more so Bird. While Bird has the higher FG% in the playoffs, his game just doesn't translate well in the playoffs. I'd take Kobe over him in terms of scoring. I'd take Bird when it come to facilitating and enough scoring. Overall I'd take Bird since he's a better teammate than Kobe. It's close though.

I'd take Duncan, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, Wade, Lebron, MJ, Kareem, Magic, West, Erving, Baylor, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt over Bird and Kobe. Their game translates better in the post-season where the biggest games happen.

Kobe's game doesnt translate well to the post season?....really?....where have you been the previous decade?

[I.R.Beast]

Yeah, Pau GaSoft was so elite without Bryant:

Look at his epicness before joining LA:
0 MVP votes
0 All-NBA Teams
1 All-Star appearance
Not even regarded as top 5 at his own position.
Not even regarded as a top 15 player.
Swept in PS three straight seasons
Food for though: Gasol with/without net (team efficiency differential) in Mermhis:
2005 -1.4 (!), 26 games missed
2007 -1.6 (!), 23 games missed



Gasol's RAPM:
2002 -0.3 (221st place)
2003 -0.8 (250th)
2004 -0.2 (150th)
2005 +0.2 (137th)
2006 +1.1 (83rd)
2007 -1.3 (313rd)


So again - before LA his not even top100 during those seasons ;]

2005: 50% W-L% with Gasol, 65.4% without Gasol (26 games missed)
2007: 28.8% with, 21.7% without (23)
2008: 25.6% with, 27.9% without (43)

So it's not a fluke, season after season, large sample in every case and Memhis without Gasol was doing as good as with him.

look at his team record with and without him when he missed an extended stretch in 2005:

With Gasol: 28-28
Without Gasol: 17-9

So "elite" indeed. :oldlol:

Gasol was a damn good player in memphis, but your right, people found it necessary associate the word "elite" with Pau gasol in an attempt to diminish anything Kobe achieved after LA aquired gasol. The truth is that even on grizzlies teams that were good and bad Gasol Never averaged more than 21 points, and only has 2 seasons at or slightly above 20 points. Pau Gasol is consistently hovering around 17-19 points a game.

Pau is a clear cut 2nd option and an excellent 1 at that.

[Doranku]

Neither.

Both played significantly worse in the playoffs, more so Bird. While Bird has the higher FG% in the playoffs, his game just doesn't translate well in the playoffs. I'd take Kobe over him in terms of scoring. I'd take Bird when it come to facilitating and enough scoring. Overall I'd take Bird since he's a better teammate than Kobe. It's close though.

I'd take Duncan, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, Wade, Lebron, MJ, Kareem, Magic, West, Erving, Baylor, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt over Bird and Kobe. Their game translates better in the post-season where the biggest games happen.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[D-Wade316]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Lets see.

Wade - 11 Finals, 11 Boston, 10 Boston, 06 Finals, 06 Pistons, 05 Wizards, 05 Pistons, 04 Pacers

Lebron - 11 Bulls, 11 Celtics, 09 Magic, 08 Celtic

Elgin - 61pts in the Finals, 33.4ppg in 60, 38.1ppg in 61, 38.6ppg in 62, 32.6ppg in 63

Erving - 33.3ppg in 72 as a rookie :eek:, 2 undeniably better Finals performance than any of Kobe's

Oscar - 28.8ppg, 11.0rpg, 11.0apg in 62 as a sophomore :eek:, 31.8ppg, 13.0rpg, 9.0apg in 63



:pimp:

[greymatter]

Bird, not even close.

Better at almost every facet of the game. Far greater on all the intangibles: team leader, IQ, elevating teammates, carrying them, etc. If he had payed someone to pave his mother's driveway and Mchale hadn't broken his foot, the Pistons wouldn't have even come close to sniffing a title in the late 80s.

[Doranku]

Lets see.

Wade - 11 Finals, 11 Boston, 10 Boston, 06 Finals, 06 Pistons, 05 Wizards, 05 Pistons, 04 Pacers

Lebron - 11 Bulls, 11 Celtics, 09 Magic, 08 Celtic

Elgin - 61pts in the Finals, 33.4ppg in 60, 38.1ppg in 61, 38.6ppg in 62, 32.6ppg in 63

Erving - 33.3ppg in 72 as a rookie :eek:, 2 undeniably better Finals performance than any of Kobe's

Oscar - 28.8ppg, 11.0rpg, 11.0apg in 62 as a sophomore :eek:, 31.8ppg, 13.0rpg, 9.0apg in 63



:pimp:

Stopped reading at the bold. I've never seen ANYONE argue LeBron's '08 series in his favor.

Dude shot like 25% through the first 5 games. :facepalm

[I.R.Beast]

Stopped reading at the bold. I've never seen ANYONE argue LeBron's '08 series in his favor.

Dude shot like 25% through the first 5 games. :facepalm

BUH BUH BUUH BUH het got a triple double!!!!!

[pauk]

u serious? Bird ofcourse

[I.R.Beast]

that bulls heat series last year is such an overrated series for LEbron

he played 45 minutes a game shot an entire 7% lower than his season average, and average almost 4 TOs a game. Despite Rose shooting 35% for the series the heat needed to make NBA history to win the series. which is;


becoming the first team to be outrebounded, outshot in 2FG% and 3FG%, and still win the series and why?....because of a 2:1 freethrow advantage.

That series was horrible, miami's offense was horrendous in that series, poor ball movement, poor execution. he was much better in the Celtics 2011 series than in the bulls series.

[AlphaWolf24]

Neither.

Both played significantly worse in the playoffs, more so Bird. While Bird has the higher FG% in the playoffs, his game just doesn't translate well in the playoffs. I'd take Kobe over him in terms of scoring. I'd take Bird when it come to facilitating and enough scoring. Overall I'd take Bird since he's a better teammate than Kobe. It's close though.

I'd take Duncan, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, Wade, Lebron, MJ, Kareem, Magic, West, Erving, Baylor, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt over Bird and Kobe. Their game translates better in the post-season where the biggest games happen.


:roll: @ this fool..

http://daveharbin.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/kobe-bryant-right-struggles-with-the-riches-after-the-los-angeles-lakers-won-the-nba-championship-with-bryant-also-being-named-finals-most-valuable-player.jpeg


Guess you missed out on all those years when Kobe was droppin 33PPG 7REB 7AST on the Spurs and sending Tim Duncan back to swimming lessons...



Kobe Bryant is a better player then Bird , Kobe Bryant is a greater Champion then Bird...Kobe Bryant has already had a greater career then Bird...


heck....Bird came into the NBA at 22 years old.....Kobe already had a 3peat under his belt at 22...


anyobne who would take Bird over Kobe is 100 and 50% biased and just UMAD...

Larry was a great great player for 8 years.....but Kobe has been much better for much longer...


Kobe>Bird and it really aint even close.

[D-Wade316]

:roll: @ this fool..

http://daveharbin.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/kobe-bryant-right-struggles-with-the-riches-after-the-los-angeles-lakers-won-the-nba-championship-with-bryant-also-being-named-finals-most-valuable-player.jpeg


Guess you missed out on all those years when Kobe was droppin 33PPG 7REB 7AST on the Spurs and sending Tim Duncan back to swimming lessons...



Kobe Bryant is a better player then Bird , Kobe Bryant is a greater Champion then Bird...Kobe Bryant has already had a greater career then Bird...


heck....Bird came into the NBA at 22 years old.....Kobe already had a 3peat under his belt at 22...


anyobne who would take Bird over Kobe is 100 and 50% biased and just UMAD...

Larry was a great great player for 8 years.....but Kobe has been much better for much longer...


Kobe>Bird and it really aint even close.
Where's the "Next"? :lol :roll: :oldlol:

[greymatter]

that bulls heat series last year is such an overrated series for LEbron

he played 45 minutes a game shot an entire 7% lower than his season average, and average almost 4 TOs a game. Despite Rose shooting 35% for the series the heat needed to make NBA history to win the series. which is;


becoming the first team to be outrebounded, outshot in 2FG% and 3FG%, and still win the series and why?....because of a 2:1 freethrow advantage.


Overall FG%

Game 1: Heat 32-68 Bulls 38-87
Game 2: Heat 32-68 Bulls 28-82
Game 3: Heat 34-67 Bulls 32-77
Game 4: Heat 32-75 Bulls 35-87
Game 5: Heat 26-66 Bulls 29-81
Heat: 45.3%, Bulls 39.1%

3pt FG%

Game 1: Heat 3-8 Bulls 10-21
Game 2: Heat 3-13 Bulls 3-20
Game 3: Heat 3-9 Bulls 5-12
Game 4: Heat 5-13 Bulls 6-24
Game 5: Heat 6-15 Bulls 7-22
Heat 34.5%, Bulls 31.3%

Make stuff up much?

[D-Wade316]

Overall FG%

Game 1: Heat 32-68 Bulls 38-87
Game 2: Heat 32-68 Bulls 28-82
Game 3: Heat 34-67 Bulls 32-77
Game 4: Heat 32-75 Bulls 35-87
Game 5: Heat 26-66 Bulls 29-81
Heat: 45.3%, Bulls 39.1%

3pt FG%

Game 1: Heat 3-8 Bulls 10-21
Game 2: Heat 3-13 Bulls 3-20
Game 3: Heat 3-9 Bulls 5-12
Game 4: Heat 5-13 Bulls 6-24
Game 5: Heat 6-15 Bulls 7-22
Heat 34.5%, Bulls 31.3%

Make stuff up much?
Dang! Even with the huge disparity in fgas the Heat still won, easily.

[Duncan21formvp]

Both Bird and Kobe went to franchises that were used to winning. Celtics had 13 titles before Bird played with them and had been in 14 finals. Lakers had 11 titles before Kobe came and been in 24 finals.
So let's say both went to franchises with 0 titles and 0 finals appearances who is more capable of leading a franchise to titles that never won before?

[KevinNYC]

Does this mean I get 23 year old Bird as a rookie, and his career plays out roughly the same, and 17-year old Kobe as well, etc?

If yes, I take Kobe for longevity. Bird only had roughly 10 elite years(79-90 minus 88-89), though his peak was definitely better.

If I get something like a fully healthy Bird as a 21 year old rookie, I'd take him.

If we are starting a team, now that means that Bird would be able to take advantage of all the advances in training which means he would last longer.....Of course, you would have to convince him that millionaires don't have redo their own driveway and can just hire someone....which is how he suffered his first back injury....but he was brought up poor and didn't see the reason people would pay someone else to do that.

Bird also made his teammates excited to play with him from day 1. Cedric Maxwell was a big doubter of Bird and thought he was overhyped, but after one preseason, he recognized that Bird made the game easier for him. Kobe doesn't bring that to a team and has to spend a lot of time maturing.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If we are starting a team, now that means that Bird would be able to take advantage of all the advances in training which means he would last longer.....Of course, you would have to convince him that millionaires don't have redo their own driveway and can just hire someone....which is how he suffered his first back injury....but he was brought up poor and didn't see the reason people would pay someone else to do that.

Bird also made his teammates excited to play with him from day 1. Cedric Maxwell was a big doubter of Bird and thought he was overhyped, but after one preseason, he recognized that Bird made the game easier for him. Kobe doesn't bring that to a team and has to spend a lot of time maturing.

Bird age on Day 1 23
Kobe's age on Day 1 18

:facepalm

[KevinNYC]

I didn't mean Bird would last longer than Kobe, I meant 21st century Bird would last longer than 80's Bird...and his prime would probably be significantly extended.

Also Bird turned 23 that season, but was nearly 23 on day 1

[KevinNYC]

Also for those saying Bird's game didn't translate to playoffs, Bird's Career playoff averages including post injury years are

23.8p
10.3r
6.5a
1.8s
.9b

[KevinNYC]

for what it's worth, Bird has said that Kobe is his favorite current player.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I didn't mean Bird would last longer than Kobe, I meant 21st century Bird would last longer than 80's Bird...and his prime would probably be significantly extended.

Also Bird turned 23 that season, but was nearly 23 on day 1

That's not what I'm referring to. You cite Larry Bird's advanced maturity on Day 1 over Kobe as a benefit. He was a full grown man. Kobe was 18 years old. What do you expect? Do you think 18 year old Larry Bird was as mature as 23 year old Larry Bird?

[KevinNYC]

That's not what I'm referring to. You cite Larry Bird's advanced maturity on Day 1 over Kobe as a benefit. He was a full grown man. Kobe was 18 years old. What do you expect? Do you think 18 year old Larry Bird was as mature as 23 year old Larry Bird?

Wouldn't that be a factor when you started a team?

What I was referring to in terms of Kobe's maturity is really their approaches to the game. Both are super-hard workers and dedicated to developing their game
However, Bird loves the team game and was known since high school as a guy who was adept at getting every one involved. Kobe for most of his career was known as a guy who wanted the spotlight and would do team-chemistry things like screaming at another player who took a shot that Kobe thought should be his.

I just think it would be harder to build around Kobe.

[jlip]

Wouldn't that be a factor when you started a team?

What I was referring to in terms of Kobe's maturity is really their approaches to the game. Both are super-hard workers and dedicated to developing their game
However, Bird loves the team game and was known since high school as a guy who was adept at getting every one involved. Kobe for most of his career was known as a guy who wanted the spotlight and would do team-chemistry things like screaming at another player who took a shot that Kobe thought should be his.

I just think it would be harder to build around Kobe.

This is what I would say also. It actually has less to do with who is even the better player. It's more about the styles and approaches. Bird's game is much more inherently team oriented and it would be easier to plug in didn't types of pieces around him. Kobe's game would require a more specific setof pieces to compliment him.

[colts19]

That's not what I'm referring to. You cite Larry Bird's advanced maturity on Day 1 over Kobe as a benefit. He was a full grown man. Kobe was 18 years old. What do you expect? Do you think 18 year old Larry Bird was as mature as 23 year old Larry Bird?

Had Larry gone to the NBA when he was 18, he would have been a much better player than Kobe at 18. I saw him play when he was sitting out a year while waiting to start at ISU and said from the first practice I saw him he was the best forward I ever saw.

He could have been a top 20 player (probably higher) at 18 years old in the NBA.