The 80's Larry Bird GOAT Conversation

[jlip]

June 4, 1985 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HTxWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tekDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6051,1310355&dq=larry+bird+greatest+player+all+time&hl=en)

[I]Larry Bird, the Boston Celtics

[32Dayz]

Bird was an underrated athlete 2.

Just watched some old highlights of him and he threw down some mean dunks even a crazy reverse hanging jam.

People think we was this nonathletic slob but that's not true at all.

[305Baller]

Bird may be the most skilled player of all-time.

[Kblaze8855]

It didnt even take that long. Most of those are mid to late 80s. Look at this:


http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8673/birdfe.jpg

Jerry Sloan had him as the GOAT in 1980.

[305Baller]

It didnt even take that long. Most of those are mid to late 80s. Look at this:


http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8673/birdfe.jpg

Jerry Sloan had him as the GOAT in 1980.

Did they really have to highlight "greatest"? It wasn't even being used in the right sentence.

[Kblaze8855]

That was me. I had lost the article a while back and it took a moment to find it. I had it saved for a thing I was gonna do eventually.

And it was actually 1981 not 1981. but it was still before he had a ring.

[305Baller]

That was me. I had lost the article a while back and it took a moment to find it. I had it saved for a thing I was gonna do eventually.

And it was actually 1981 not 1981. but it was still before he had a ring.

Those are odd highlighting choices.

[Kblaze8855]

Just key words I needed to find the article. I new the timeframe to use. The words just narrowed it down. google highlighted them.

[pauk]

my favorite player of all time :bowdown:

one thing is for sure tho... dunno about GOAT... but Bird > Magic

i think Bird might have been the most complete/skilled player of all time.... if only his defense was better...

[Bernie Nips]

People like to forget how good Bird was and how highly rated he was... Anyone who even thinks about dropping him out of top 5 is just using revisionist history. Only one player since Bird deserves to be top 5 and that's Jordan. So when people change it around and drop Bird out for older players.. It makes no sense. At the time he was considered the best. That's all that matters.

[pauk]

He could shoot with the best
He could score with the best
He could pass with the best
He could Rebound with the best
He could be clutch with the best

There is only one other player in nba history u could say that about... And that is Oscar robertson ... Think about this for a sec

[jlip]

my favorite player of all time :bowdown:

one thing is for sure tho... dunno about GOAT... but Bird > Magic

i think Bird might have been the most complete/skilled player of all time.... if only his defense was better...

He did actually have a 3 all defensive team selections. Also this quote from the OP speaks favorably of his defense.
[I]
"The NBA

[KevinNYC]

I think it took Red Auerbach 5 mins before he said this kid is going to be one of the all time greats, the first time he saw Bird play.

There some video where Dr. J. calls him a basketball genius and he was. It was what made him so much fun to watch for me. James Worthy used to talk about how mentally exhausted he got covering Bird. At the height of his game, you could tell that he got bored with how easy it was and needed to come up with challenges. Remember that famous Jordan dunk where he changed it at the last second into a scoop layup (in the finals I believe)? That was the same thing, just seeing if he could do it.

He was not a lockdown one-on-one defensive player, but he always had an impact on D. From 1981-86 he just seemed to be everywhere on the court. Always in the right spot. Always where the ball was going.

[bizil]

At the time, Bird clearly had a case for the GOAT. Fundamentals wise, Bird could be the GOAT. However once MJ came along, you had a guy pound for pound better than even Bird fundamentals wise. Other than deeper consistent range on his shot, what could Bird do better than MJ clearly pound for pound? Passing wise, u can say Larry is better than MJ. But not by much cause MJ was a brilliant passer as well. MJ's midrange game is arguably the greatest of all time. Throw in freakish athletic ability and top 5 ever perimeter defensive skills, MJ in the end is the GOAT. Bird however along with MJ, Magic, and Kobe are the premier perimeter players of all time.

As far as Magic vs. Bird, I've always felt it could go either way. Magic had PG type handles flat out. Which made Magic an even dangerous passer over Bird. Even though Bird had similar type vision. Magic was an excellent rebounder, but Bird played primarily SF and many minutes at PF. So he was closer to the hoop for boards. But I will give Bird the edge in the regard. Scoring wise I will give Bird the edge. Even though Magic could put the foot on the gas and score as good as anybody damn near when needed. Defensive wise, neither was great man to man. But both were very good team defenders.

The thing about Magic is, he stayed healthy longer and improved his scoring prowess as time went on. When he had to bow out early in '91, he was as dangerous as ever, even though he wasn't quite as athletic. He was still a top 2-3 player in the L at 32 years of age. Bird on the other hand got hit hard with injuries around the same time and clearly wasn't the same. MJ though i would take over both clearly. Bird and Magic is always an arguable debate.

[greymatter]

If he were to have had 15-16 back injury free seasons, he'd still be in the conversation as GOAT.

[greymatter]

Passing wise, u can say Larry is better than MJ. But not by much cause MJ was a brilliant passer as well.

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.


MJ though i would take over both clearly. Bird and Magic is always an arguable debate.

Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

[bizil]

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.



Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.


Are u sure that Bird was LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than MJ passing the pill? When MJ had PG type handles and pace in his game. Something Bird never had! I'm talking the evolution of MJ and not when MJ first came in the L.

What do u mean VASTLY superior in terms of building around a team. And how much they elevate their teammates? Bird and Magic played around multiple HOFers in their prime! MJ just had Pippen and Rodman. Rodman was a non factor on offense to begin with. Give MJ the greatest frontline of all time. Or give MJ arguably the greatest center of all time. And studs like Worthy and McAdoo. Or underrated guys like Wilkes, Nixon, and Scott. MJ NEVER had the wealth of talent Bird and Magic played with.

MJ is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time on top of it. U could NEVER put Bird or Magic on island to guard guys like Drexler, Wilkins, King, English, etc. MJ, Coop, and Pip u could. MJ elevated the Bulls so much it wasnt funny. Actually man for man, the Bulls had one of the weaker casts to win an NBA title. They did cause u have MJ and Pip that could do ANYTHING on the court. And were freakish athletes on top of it. As good as Bird and Magic were, the couldn't do EVERYTHING on the court. MJ, Pip, and to an extent Drexler paved the way for freakish athletes who had damn near if not just as much all around ability as the Magics, Birds, Hondos, and Barrys. It then led to the Kobes, Brons, Hills, Penny, TMacs, and Wades. Imagine a combo of a Big O, Havlicek, or Barry with the freakish athletic ability of a Dr. J, Hawkins, or Baylor. That's what u got with an MJ. If u think Magic or Bird elevated teammates better than okay. But to say vastly or clearly u are sadly mistaken. MJ was such a freak it seems the all around aspects get slept on. As Kenny Smith says, MJ was the first freak athlete that had FLAWLESS fundamentals. That's why his ranking on the video games is so high. LMBAO!

[bizil]

If he were to have had 15-16 back injury free seasons, he'd still be in the conversation as GOAT.

Bird is a top 5-6 GOAT of all time! And the GOAT SF of all time! I mean damn it's not much more he can do! Sure if he had those many seasons, peak value wise would he be considered better than MJ? Would Boston have won anymore rings? Maybe. But the Bulls had such a machine that I don't see the Celtics ****ing with that at that point. If anything a healthy Bird AND Lenny Bias could have put LB in the convo. Bias and Bird would have been devastating. Mchale and Parish aged pretty good. A squad with Bird, Bias, McHale, Parish, Fox, X Man, Douglas, etc. in the early 90's. would have beat the Hornets in that round. From there in a given season they could have beat the Bulls at time. Bias could have taken up the slack for Bird scoring wise when LB's back went out. And in theory, Bird wouldn't have had to bust his ass as much with a guy with Bias. U could have went Bias at SF and Bird at PF. Or at times Bias at SG and Bird at SF. Bias would have been a perennial All Star u could build around.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Yes, Bird was leaps and bounds a better passer than Jordan. Jordan was an excellent passer when he decided to pass later in his career. Bird was a God at passing from the first day of his career to the last. Magic and Bird are basically equally great in my mind although Magic got the upper hand on Bird all but once. The Lakers threw away 2 games in the 84 series and still had a chance to win it in 7. It really could have been Magic-4, Bird-0. I love Bird.......I prefer Magic.

You can't appreciate how good Bird was unless you saw him play in his prime. There's a reason his name is Larry Legend.

[Micku]

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.



Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

Well...to be fair, Magic did have Kareem, Wilkes, and Nixon. Kareem being MVP and the best center in the league. What Magic did was just spark them and he was just what they needed. And the Lakers did have Cooper in Magic's rookie year too. Obviously Cooper became better and better with the defensive end and became one of the best perimeter defenders. But he wasn't so bad in Magic's first year. But Magic had a fantastic rookie year and his impact was great and felt, but he did have more talent on his team than Jordan did in his rookie year.

Bird was impressive of what he did with the Celtics. He was the man from the beginning. While Bird did have Tiny and Maxwell, I don't think there was any real difference in the season where they had 29 wins. Bird's impact on the Celtics was great in one of the best improvements on a team. They didn't get Mchale or Parish until the following year when they won. But Mchale was a rookie then. Dennis Johnson came later.

I think Magic and Bird are better team players too. Jordan was criticize for being a one man show in the beginning of his career. It would've been nice to see what could Jordan do with the 1986 Bulls team with Woolridge, Gervin and Oakley in the lineup, but Jordan was injured.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.


Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players. When you have good players, adding a GREAT player can make more of a difference.


Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

lol @ this hyperbole. :oldlol: "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

[Psileas]

At the time, Bird clearly had a case for the GOAT. Fundamentals wise, Bird could be the GOAT. However once MJ came along, you had a guy pound for pound better than even Bird fundamentals wise. Other than deeper consistent range on his shot, what could Bird do better than MJ clearly pound for pound? Passing wise, u can say Larry is better than MJ. But not by much cause MJ was a brilliant passer as well. MJ's midrange game is arguably the greatest of all time. Throw in freakish athletic ability and top 5 ever perimeter defensive skills, MJ in the end is the GOAT. Bird however along with MJ, Magic, and Kobe are the premier perimeter players of all time.

What are "pound for pound" fundamentals supposed to mean in basketball, exactly? This isn't weightlifting or boxing. Hell, passing and weight have a negative correlation, shooting range and weight the same, stealing and weight the same and there's no reason to believe that scoring and weight have any meaningful positive correlation, either, if they even do. How about "inch of vertical for inch of vertical" fundamentals? It's not more flawed a method. Going by "pound for pound", Chris Paul is a strong GOAT candidate and so was John Stockton.

Having said that, I don't see much value in Bird's strong GOAT candidacy in the mid-80's, apart from just comparing his peak to the other GOATs' ones, which is valid. Partially this happened due to people anticipating that he might continue at the same clip and amass even more rings and MVP's, which didn't happen. And you're definitely not convincing me that the fact he was white was completely irrelevant, either.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.



That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players. When you have good players, adding a GREAT player can make more of a difference.



lol @ this hyperbole. :oldlol: "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

Like most of the posts in this place it's just your opinion, and stop using the word hyperbole. Use it once and you're good. Use it twice or more and you're a douche.

P.S. My posts at ISH are vastly better than yours by leaps and bounds.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Like most of the posts in this place it's just your opinion, and stop using the word hyperbole. Use it once and you're good. Use it twice or more and you're a douche.

P.S. My posts at ISH are vastly better than yours by leaps and bounds.

If you insist. But you're kidding yourself if you think that rookie Jordan wouldn't have won a title on the 1980 Lakers playing next to KAJ at his peak.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

If you insist. But you're kidding yourself if you think that rookie Jordan wouldn't have won a title on the 1980 Lakers playing next to KAJ at his peak.

Duly noted. Is rookie Jordan puting up 42/15/7 in the close-out game minus Jabbar? Doubtful.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Duly noted. Is rookie Jordan puting up 42/15/7 in the close-out game minus Jabbar? Doubtful.

Uhh, why not? Jordan was a better playoff player than Magic, and a better player overall. Maybe not 42/15/7, but 45+/12/7-8 ast is not out of the question. Regardless of what he does in game 6, again, you're kidding yourself if you don't believe that MJ would have won a title in 1980 with the Lakers.

[Duncan21formvp]

Duly noted. Is rookie Jordan puting up 42/15/7 in the close-out game minus Jabbar? Doubtful.
Jamal Wilkes put up 37 pts and 10 rebounds in that same game.

[colts19]

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.



That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players. When you have good players, adding a GREAT player can make more of a difference.



lol @ this hyperbole. :oldlol: "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

The fact remains that MJ would have won a title on the 1980 Lakers. Deal with it.

Magic and Bird were also nowhere close to Jordan as scorers or defensive players. So that evens out.

[Kblaze8855]

Jordan is a far better defender than Bird. He isnt a far better scorer. He scored more points. Which is a very different thing. Bird is a better passer by a lot more than Jordan is a better scorer. Case could very very easily be made that they are roughly equal scorers. The difference is numbers which have a lot to do with situation. No case can be made that they are even on the same plane as passers and that isnt a numbers thing. Bird never averaged the 8 assists Jordan did. But its just...not close.

[Da_Realist]

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

Here's something posted by ISH's Bush4Ever regarding that turnaround


-- Simple.

Because the talent on the early bulls team relative to the league was extremely low.

You cited Larry Bird's turnaround in a previous post. However, Bird wasn't the only cause.

1. They got rid of malcontent Bob Macadoo.
2. They picked up a real coach in Bill Fitch, which ushered in a whole new attitude (if you don't know the Sidney Wicks story, it's a good one...google it)
3. They picked up a real coach, which allowed Dave Cowens to get back to full time playing duties
4. They picked up ML Carr, who at the time was an extremely good defensive player (led the league in steals).
5. They had a newly healthy Nate Archibald, who played a good chunk of the 1979 year injured.

There are more things going on than simply adding a player (usually).

[Duncan21formvp]

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

Bird lost 7 series with HCA, the most of any all time great and never won any series without it. In fact he got swept with HCA in 1983 to the Bucks a team that hadn't won anything. Lost game 7 at home to the Sixers before Moses Malone even came.

[Kblaze8855]

When you win 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, and 57 games(before getting hurt and the team only manages 42)...you are pretty much always gonna have HCA. Losing with it just means you dont make every finals or win every title. When you have to manufacture weak criticisms like that it says more about how great the subject is than anything.

[AlphaWolf24]

When you win 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, and 57 games(before getting hurt and the team only manages 42)...you are pretty much always gonna have HCA. Losing with it just means you dont make every finals or win every title. When you have to manufacture weak criticisms like that it says more about how great the subject is than anything.


from yo keyboard straight to the haterz ears....:applause:

[Duncan21formvp]

When you win 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, and 57 games(before getting hurt and the team only manages 42)...you are pretty much always gonna have HCA. Losing with it just means you dont make every finals or win every title. When you have to manufacture weak criticisms like that it says more about how great the subject is than anything.

And when you have HCA you are supposed to win that series as well especially against teams that are less proven than you are. Some of those you can excuse like 1985 vs the Lakers, but 1983 vs the Bucks, 1982 vs the Sixers are not excusable. Nor is 1990 vs the Knicks.

Here are the top 10 with HCA


vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Jordan: 14-0 (100%)/ 10-0 (100%)
Jabbar: 11-3 (79%)/ 23-2 (92%)
Russell: 10-0 (100%)/ 12-1 (92%)* missed most of series lost
Wilt: 4-3 (57%)/ 9-2 (82%)
Magic: 9-2 (82%)/ 20-1 (95%)
Bird: 10-6 (63%)/ 14-1 (93%)
Kobe: 18-2 (90%) / 6-0 (100%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/ 5-2 (71%)
Shaq: 11-3 (79%)/ 13-2 (87%)
Duncan: 13-4 (76%)/ 8-1 (100%)

[Kblaze8855]

Excusable? Its sports. Losing will happen. When you have the best record in the conference or entire NBA many many years you will lose with HCA at times. He won 3 rings. He has nothing more to prove. 30 years later you are calling it inexcusable to lose to a 58 win team with 4 all stars making its 3rd of 4 finals trips...in a 7 game series...having lost one game by a single shot.... because you had HCA?

Really...

Who gives a ****?

Just scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to hate on.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He scored more points. Which is a very different thing. Bird is a better passer by a lot more than Jordan is a better scorer. Case could very very easily be made that they are roughly equal scorers.

No, such a case can't be made. And I say that as someone who believes that Bird is a top 5-6 scorer all time. Jordan had significantly higher volume AND efficiency, and maintained peak scoring for far longer. If Brd was MORE efficient than MJ at lower volume, you might be able to say that, but that's not the case. Jordan was averaging 4-7 more ppg in his 4 best scoring seasons on better efficiency than Bird. That's a significant difference, and one that can't be explained away by saying "if Bird took more shots he would have scored the same amount of points." Yes, Bird likely could have averaged 32-34 ppg if he wanted to and took more shots, but not at the 53-54% FG/60-61% TS efficiency that Jordan did. Therein lies the difference. A 4-7 ppg difference on equal/better efficiency is a BIG deal at the high end of ppg.

Jordan was also a far superior playoff scorer.

[305Baller]

Bird is a great player, best skills of all-time maybe.

But Jordan's dogged determination and smooth mid-range and slasher game wins overall... why? 6 titles.

[eliteballer]

Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well.

Jordan gonna play center? Not to mention he was 2 years older as a rookie.

and lets be honest about Bird. Great, great player, top 5 and as good as everyone says is.

BUT

All that talk in the early to mid 80's has A LOT to do with east coast media hype and being the "great white hope"

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan gonna play center? Not to mention he was 2 years older as a rookie.

No you idiot, he wouldn't have to "play center" to win a title on the 1980 Lakers. He would win a title on the 1980 Lakers playing with the BEST player in the league in KAJ along with tons of other talent. Give me a break. :oldlol:

Jordan was also 1.5 years older than Magic as a rookie, not 2 years (20 years and 3 months versus 21 years and 9 months).

[eliteballer]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

[Kblaze8855]

No, such a case can't be made. And I say that as someone who believes that Bird is a top 5-6 scorer all time. Jordan had significantly higher volume AND efficiency, and maintained peak scoring for far longer. If Brd was MORE efficient than MJ at lower volume, you might be able to say that, but that's not the case. Jordan was averaging 4-7 more ppg in his 4 best scoring seasons on better efficiency than Bird. That's a significant difference, and one that can't be explained away by saying "if Bird took more shots he would have scored the same amount of points." Yes, Bird likely could have averaged 32-34 ppg if he wanted to and took more shots, but not at the 53-54% FG/60-61% TS efficiency that Jordan did. Therein lies the difference. A 4-7 ppg difference on equal/better efficiency is a BIG deal at the high end of ppg.

Jordan was also a far superior playoff scorer.



Well what else would you say? You dont care about thinking past any number that makes Jordan look good because thats pretty much your only purpose. you have been doing this shit for 7 or 8 years.

The "Yea he could shoot more to score more but he wouldnt shoot as well" case is the obvious one to make...but not to someone like me who doesnt need to see their numbers to judge them....because I sat there and saw it live. At times live in person.

For players on their level the numbers are pretty much what they decide to make them. I dont care any more that Bird scored 21-25 a game some years than I care that Jordan didnt score over 35 after the 80s even though he was just as good a scorer or better. It means NOTHING to me. At all.


If you look at how Bird(and Jordan) scored it should be clear that they could shoot more...and shoot a better percentage because of it. The Bird I remember was pretty much chilling taking shots as they came and going long stretches without actually setting out to create his own shot to score in a real isolation situation. If he just set out to get and make a shot...not to run offense and get guys open and take long jumpers and all....if he just decided to go score...he could easily shoot more and shoot better.

Jordan was the same way. He shot better putting up 35 a game than he did putting up 30. And it wasnt as simple as defenses getting a little better(though they did). He played more team ball. If Jordan or Bird set out to just make a shot for themselves 15 times a game and take 10 more in the flow they probably shoot better on those 25 shots than if they play in the flow and take 20 shots.

It wasnt by chance Bird shot the highest percentages of his career when he shot the most. he shot 52 and 53% in his highest shot attempt seasons.

Attacking Bird scores at a better rate than passive "one of the guys" bird just like attacking jordan did.

If Bird knows his team needs him to go out and score his ass off he could easily score more...and he wouldnt be shooting worse to do it. More of his shots would be on the block, and triple threat jumpers, and going across the lane than the 19 footers and quick shots that lowered his percentages.

I dont believe bird was incapable of doing late 80s Jordan scoring numbers any more than i believe first 3 peat jordan couldnt score 35-37 a game like 80s jordan did.

But we cant really discuss that too deeply because you arent talking about ability to apply skills to scoring. you are talking about shit like true shooting percentages and such because thats what people argue with...because people for the most part dont know what they are talking about and numbers cant be debated.

It makes it...simple. but I dont do simple at the expense of what I can see.

And ive seen Bird play within the flow of the offense for 30 minutes then just as I thought we would win....stop...and go one on one 4-5 times in a row and make 3 shots and get fouled on another and make the FTs to beat us.

He...like most great scorers....could score much more and on high percentages if they chose to(or needed to) disregard their teammates.

Guys like Jordan...bird...even Kobe, AI, and Gervin...all of them could shoot better than they do/did...if they just set out to get themselves the best shot again and again.


But playing in an offense...especially an offense with other capable players....it limits your reason to do that. So more of your shots end up being less effective jumpers or quick moves that wont work at the rate that a guy like Bird...or Jordan..or....Pierce...or a lot of guys...can really score.

Guys like Bird dont shoot 48% because some guy can stop them over half the time. And Jordan didnt shoot what he shot in the 90s because only half the time(or less) could he make the shot were he just working into the best position to score and then shooting/attacking like he did in the 80s.

They shoot what they shoot as much because of their team and the offense as anything.

Birds great teammates kept defenses honest...at the same time they greatly limited his chances to really set out to just make basket after basket as he was more than capable of.

So in the end...I dont care what his numbers were.

Bird was one of the best/most crafty post players ive ever seen, one of the best midrange shooters ive ever seen, and couldnt be left open outside. Add to that an all time elite off hand, every move in the book from hooks, and floaters, and stepbacks to actually being able to make behind the basket jumpers....because he worked on them...and absurd body control in the air for his hops...

He was as good a scorer as ive ever seen. Period.

He wasnt better than Jordan. Nobody is better than Jordan. But ive seen nothing to suggest anyone is better than Bird either. Not as a scorer.

If Bird did the Dantley thing and just sought out ISOs and demanded the ball in his sweet spots to attack 30 times a night he would have been doing 30+ a game on 55+ shooting too.

Same for Jordan.

The numbers dont matter much to me for that reason. Its thinking like yours that has people saying shit like this:



I'll tell you what...how about TS% and eFG% then?

Speaking just in terms of offensive production...and either in PEAK or CAREER, who was a more EFFICIENT shooter and really, a BETTER SCORER?

Bird, or Adrian Dantley?

Dantley BLOWS Bird AWAY...



Yes Adrian Dantley WAS a better offensive player. The NUMBERS do not lie. Just because Bird had better range does not make him a better offensive player.


Im not the type who cares about such things.

I can explain quite simply without use of any numbers why MJ is a better scorer than say...Lebron. Who at times scores about as much as Jordan in the 90s.

I could not do that to explain why hes a better scorer than Bird. And if I tried I couldnt conclude its a major difference.

I just never saw it. I saw a major difference in numbers. But....

[BEAST Griffin]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

Kobe-esque shooting. I'm disappointed Michael.

[Duncan21formvp]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

With prime Sidney Moncrief the guy who already had 2 DPOY's on him as a rookie while Magic benefited from having a guy who won league mvp and who averaged 33 ppg/15 rpg and 5 bpg in the finals.
Not to mention had Jamal Wilkes who had 37 pts and 10 rebounds in that game 6 as well.

[Micku]

It's actually too bad that Bird had that back injury and the finger injury he had before his NBA career could start. It would be a interesting "what if" that stuff never happen to him. All of them happen off the court I believe.

It's nice to think Bird's could've been better than he actually was in his NBA career, but it's only a "what if" thing.

[eliteballer]

So what if wilkes had a big game? Jordan never won a title without Pippen and an all star PF

[eliteballer]

It's actually too bad that Bird had that back injury and the finger injury he had before his NBA career could start. It would be a interesting "what if" that stuff never happen to him. All of them happen off the court I believe.

It's nice to think Bird's could've been better than he actually was in his NBA career, but it's only a "what if" thing.

Bird's back injury happened in the 80's, the one plowing his moms driveway. Is there another?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

You're comparing playing on an uptempo team to a slow tempo team? Comparing playing with a good amount of talent compared to no talent? Comparing being defended by Monciref and Pressey to hardly being guarded at all (go watch the game)?

lol @ this delusional Laker stan thinking that Jordan doesn't win a title with the 1980 Lakers. You're out of your freaking mind. :oldlol:

[Micku]

Bird's back injury happened in the 80's, the one plowing his moms driveway. Is there another?

He also had a finger injury before he started his NBA career. I think he injured it by playing baseball or something like that. His finger was messed up his entire NBA career.

[eliteballer]

I know about the finger, I think it happened in college

[Micku]

I think that's about it of Bird's career ending injuries. He had a few injuries in his career, but nothing too major like those I think. It slowed him down. How much did it slow him down is something to argue I guess.

[Duncan21formvp]

So what if wilkes had a big game? Jordan never won a title without Pippen and an all star PF

Neither did Magic. In fact Magic played with guys who won league and finals mvp's. Only Pippen made the allstar team the years the Bulls won and even that he didn't make it in 1991 and 1998 (injured). So in reality MJ was the only player on the team who made the allstar team in 1991 and 1998. Only Hakeem rivals that where he was the only one who made the allstar team on the Rockets in 1994 and 1995. Obviously both had allstar caliber players, but they are the only two who have won multiple titles with no other player who literally made the allstar team on their team.

[Fatal9]

Here's something posted by ISH's Bush4Ever regarding that turnaround

-- Simple.

Because the talent on the early bulls team relative to the league was extremely low.

You cited Larry Bird's turnaround in a previous post. However, Bird wasn't the only cause.

1. They got rid of malcontent Bob Macadoo.
2. They picked up a real coach in Bill Fitch, which ushered in a whole new attitude (if you don't know the Sidney Wicks story, it's a good one...google it)
3. They picked up a real coach, which allowed Dave Cowens to get back to full time playing duties
4. They picked up ML Carr, who at the time was an extremely good defensive player (led the league in steals).
5. They had a newly healthy Nate Archibald, who played a good chunk of the 1979 year injured.

There are more things going on than simply adding a player (usually).

This is kind of like...trying to find every reason but to give credit to the player who was clearly behind the turnaround.

It wasn't like it was a freak year...they won 32 in '78 and then 29 in '79. Tiny played what 11 more games in '80 than he did in '79? And Bob McAdoo? They traded for him mid-season, they were a crappy team before he even got there. Teams add guys like ML Carr (24 mpg player off the bench for the Celtics) every season without seeing any sort of significant change in their wins and losses. There was more stability in the roster in '80 but that's a byproduct of the team winning and not feeling the need to make trade after trade.

The only legitimate point is the coaching change because that does have a huge impact in changing the culture and direction of a team. But the actual roster changes? Bird is the only significant change. I mean really, how many games is a team with Tiny/Maxwell/Cowens (Tiny and Cowens being past their primes...Cowens especially so) core winning that year? If they pulled off a .500 record they'd be the least talented .500 team in the league that year. Bird's style of play is the reason for their change from the selfish/loser basketball that defined the Celtics in the couple of years before he got there and what came after he joined the team.

[eliteballer]

Neither did Magic. In fact Magic played with guys who won league and finals mvp's. Only Pippen made the allstar team the years the Bulls won and even that he didn't make it in 1991 and 1998 (injured). So in reality MJ was the only player on the team who made the allstar team in 1991 and 1998. Only Hakeem rivals that where he was the only one who made the allstar team on the Rockets in 1994 and 1995. Obviously both had allstar caliber players, but they are the only two who have won multiple titles with no other player who literally made the allstar team on their team.

LMAO. Pippen Grant BJ all made the all star team in 94.

Kukoc 6th man of the yr, Harper 20/5/5 before joining the Bulls

[G-train]

Growing up in the 80s/90s, it was pretty much fact that the best 3 players ever were Jordan/Bird/Magic, with Magic/Bird in differing orders.
This was mainly because both players admitted that Jordan was better.

Not sure when KAJ/Bill/Wilt started getting thrown in their consistently.

[Duncan21formvp]

LMAO. Pippen Grant BJ all made the all star team in 94.

Kukoc 6th man of the yr, Harper 20/5/5 before joining the Bulls

Kareem won league mvp before ever playing with Magic, Worthy was the #1 pick and won finals mvp over Magic in 1988, Bob Mcadoo won league mvp as well and was on the Lakers, and Byron Scott led the team in scoring in 1988. AC Green also made the allstar team as did Norm Nixon and Jamal Wilkes.

So while Magic was on the Lakers, Kareem, Magic, Worthy, AC Green, Norm Nixon and Jamal Wilkes all made the allstar team on the Lakers and then they had a former MVP winner in Bob Mcadoo on the team as well.

[G-train]

Neither did Magic. In fact Magic played with guys who won league and finals mvp's. Only Pippen made the allstar team the years the Bulls won and even that he didn't make it in 1991 and 1998 (injured). So in reality MJ was the only player on the team who made the allstar team in 1991 and 1998. Only Hakeem rivals that where he was the only one who made the allstar team on the Rockets in 1994 and 1995. Obviously both had allstar caliber players, but they are the only two who have won multiple titles with no other player who literally made the allstar team on their team.

Dude you cant say he didnt win with an allstar in 98, when he was playing with one of the best 3's ever who didnt make the allstar team due to injury.
Comments like that discredit your whole post.

[Duncan21formvp]

Dude you cant say he didnt win with an allstar in 98, when he was playing with one of the best 3's ever who didnt make the allstar team due to injury.
Comments like that discredit your whole post.

I said he won being the only allstar on the team in 1998 which is true, I never said he didn't play with an allstar type player. I also mentioned Pippen was injured as well which also shows why he didn't make it. But the point that was being made was that he won multiple titles in 1991 and 1998 as the only player who literally made the allstar team on his team.

[Fatal9]

I said he won being the only allstar on the team in 1998 which is true, I never said he didn't play with an allstar type player. I also mentioned Pippen was injured as well which also shows why he didn't make it. But the point that was being made was that he won multiple titles in 1991 and 1998 as the only player who literally made the allstar team on his team.
Pippen was arguably the best SF in the game in '91 (I'd put him at like 2 or 3 though).

[Micku]

Pippen was arguably the best SF in the game in '91 (I'd put him at like 2 or 3 though).

In hindsight, maybe.

Probably not if you were living in that year tho. He had a lot of competition. You had Bernard King, who had a pretty good year, Wilkins, Worthy, Chris Mullin, and Larry Bird.

But like you said, it was arguable.

[Psileas]

I said he won being the only allstar on the team in 1998 which is true, I never said he didn't play with an allstar type player. I also mentioned Pippen was injured as well which also shows why he didn't make it. But the point that was being made was that he won multiple titles in 1991 and 1998 as the only player who literally made the allstar team on his team.

Playing at an All-Star level is more substantial than whether or not you played in the ASG. Do you (or anyone) consider Oscar Robertson's 1973 regular season as legendary for leading the Bucks to 60 wins, despite playing with only 1 (marginal) All-Star in Bobby Dantridge? Kareem missed the game, so he has to be left out...

[Round Mound]

Bird in terms of Making Others Better, is the Best Player Ever

Individually Magic, Jordan, Hakeem and Charles where Better but NO ONE could Make Teams Better than Bird

[jlauber]

Bird in terms of Making Others Better, is the Best Player Ever

Individually Magic, Jordan, Hakeem and Charles where Better but NO ONE could Make Teams Better than Bird

Magic took a team, withOUT Kareem, to the BEST RECORD in the league in '90, 63-19, which was second only to LA's 65-17 mark in '87 in the Kareem-Magic era. He also took that injury-riddled and aging roster to a 58-24 record in '91, and a trip to the Finals.

ROOKIE Magic also CARRIED the Lakers in game six of the '80 Finals, and withOUT Kareem, to a title-clinching win, with a 42-15-7 game.

The Lakers, even with LOADED rosters, and in the weak-70s, were never more than a good team. He IMMEDIATELY took them to a title in his first year, and by his third season, he was winning his second FMVP. Then, after Kareem retired, he was STILL leading them to 60 win seasons. BUT, when he retired, the Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to 43-39 and 39-43 records, or about the same record that they were at when he joined them.

[greymatter]

Are u sure that Bird was LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than MJ passing the pill?

Yes.


When MJ had PG type handles and pace in his game. Something Bird never had! I'm talking the evolution of MJ and not when MJ first came in the L.

Passing is about good court vision and knowing exactly where your teamate is or is going to be. Dribbling is irrelevant. Steve Francis had crazy handles too.



What do u mean VASTLY superior in terms of building around a team. And how much they elevate their teammates? Bird and Magic played around multiple HOFers in their prime!

With exception of Kareem, Bird and Magic made their teammates HOFers. Otherwise they would most likely have wound up a tier below as semi-regular allstars. MJs style of play simply doesn't make his teammates better like Magic, Bird, or Russell.



MJ just had Pippen and Rodman. Rodman was a non factor on offense to begin with. Give MJ the greatest frontline of all time. Or give MJ arguably the greatest center of all time. And studs like Worthy and McAdoo. Or underrated guys like Wilkes, Nixon, and Scott. MJ NEVER had the wealth of talent Bird and Magic played with.

Jordan needed teammates tailored to fit around him. Bird and Magic's style of play was more mutable and they knew exactly how to get the most out of their teammates. Sorry if you can't seem to grasp that. I never said that Bird or Magic were better individual players than MJ, but rather better teammates.


MJ is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time on top of it. U could NEVER put Bird or Magic on island to guard guys like Drexler, Wilkins, King, English, etc. MJ, Coop, and Pip u could. MJ elevated the Bulls so much it wasnt funny.

You fail to grasp the difference between elevating and carrying.


Actually man for man, the Bulls had one of the weaker casts to win an NBA title. They did cause u have MJ and Pip that could do ANYTHING on the court. And were freakish athletes on top of it. As good as Bird and Magic were, the couldn't do EVERYTHING on the court. MJ, Pip, and to an extent Drexler paved the way for freakish athletes who had damn near if not just as much all around ability as the Magics, Birds, Hondos, and Barrys. It then led to the Kobes, Brons, Hills, Penny, TMacs, and Wades. Imagine a combo of a Big O, Havlicek, or Barry with the freakish athletic ability of a Dr. J, Hawkins, or Baylor. That's what u got with an MJ. If u think Magic or Bird elevated teammates better than okay. But to say vastly or clearly u are sadly mistaken. MJ was such a freak it seems the all around aspects get slept on. As Kenny Smith says, MJ was the first freak athlete that had FLAWLESS fundamentals. That's why his ranking on the video games is so high. LMBAO!

Same as above. Carrying your teammates and elevating them are two very different things.

[greymatter]

Bird is a top 5-6 GOAT of all time! And the GOAT SF of all time! I mean damn it's not much more he can do! Sure if he had those many seasons, peak value wise would he be considered better than MJ? Would Boston have won anymore rings? Maybe. But the Bulls had such a machine that I don't see the Celtics ****ing with that at that point. If anything a healthy Bird AND Lenny Bias could have put LB in the convo. Bias and Bird would have been devastating. Mchale and Parish aged pretty good. A squad with Bird, Bias, McHale, Parish, Fox, X Man, Douglas, etc. in the early 90's. would have beat the Hornets in that round. From there in a given season they could have beat the Bulls at time. Bias could have taken up the slack for Bird scoring wise when LB's back went out. And in theory, Bird wouldn't have had to bust his ass as much with a guy with Bias. U could have went Bias at SF and Bird at PF. Or at times Bias at SG and Bird at SF. Bias would have been a perennial All Star u could build around.

Try learning how to comprehend what you read. I know where Bird is generally ranked. What I said is that were his career mostly healthy and he had a good 15-16 years longevity, he would likely have bene in the discussion between #1 and 2 all time with MJ.

[greymatter]

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.

Unlike Jordan, Bird was never at any time in his career the primary ball handler on his team. Bird and Magic both always knew where their teammates were or were going to be. They both had the ability to see plays develop before they happened, thus putting their IQs on a level way beyond Jordan's with regards to that aspect of the game. Jordan was a very good passer, but simply couldn't hold a candle to Magic or Bird.


That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players.

Merely having good players doesn't mean much if you can't get them to perform well together.





lol @ this hyperbole. :oldlol: "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

Your ass is as unremarkable as anything else you have said. Jordan wouldn't have won squat on that 1980 Lakers team because he simply never learned how to play the team game until Phil came along.

[colts19]

Yes.



Passing is about good court vision and knowing exactly where your teamate is or is going to be. Dribbling is irrelevant. Steve Francis had crazy handles too.



With exception of Kareem, Bird and Magic made their teammates HOFers. Otherwise they would most likely have wound up a tier below as semi-regular allstars. MJs style of play simply doesn't make his teammates better like Magic, Bird, or Russell.



Jordan needed teammates tailored to fit around him. Bird and Magic's style of play was more mutable and they knew exactly how to get the most out of their teammates. Sorry if you can't seem to grasp that. I never said that Bird or Magic were better individual players than MJ, but rather better teammates.



You fail to grasp the difference between elevating and carrying.



Same as above. Carrying your teammates and elevating them are two very different things.

Great Post. Thanks.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Jordan gonna play center?

Magic didn't really play center that game.


Well what else would you say? You dont care about thinking past any number that makes Jordan look good because thats pretty much your only purpose. you have been doing this shit for 7 or 8 years.

The "Yea he could shoot more to score more but he wouldnt shoot as well" case is the obvious one to make...but not to someone like me who doesnt need to see their numbers to judge them....because I sat there and saw it live. At times live in person.

For players on their level the numbers are pretty much what they decide to make them. I dont care any more that Bird scored 21-25 a game some years than I care that Jordan didnt score over 35 after the 80s even though he was just as good a scorer or better. It means NOTHING to me. At all.


If you look at how Bird(and Jordan) scored it should be clear that they could shoot more...and shoot a better percentage because of it. The Bird I remember was pretty much chilling taking shots as they came and going long stretches without actually setting out to create his own shot to score in a real isolation situation. If he just set out to get and make a shot...not to run offense and get guys open and take long jumpers and all....if he just decided to go score...he could easily shoot more and shoot better.

Jordan was the same way. He shot better putting up 35 a game than he did putting up 30. And it wasnt as simple as defenses getting a little better(though they did). He played more team ball. If Jordan or Bird set out to just make a shot for themselves 15 times a game and take 10 more in the flow they probably shoot better on those 25 shots than if they play in the flow and take 20 shots.

It wasnt by chance Bird shot the highest percentages of his career when he shot the most. he shot 52 and 53% in his highest shot attempt seasons.

Attacking Bird scores at a better rate than passive "one of the guys" bird just like attacking jordan did.

If Bird knows his team needs him to go out and score his ass off he could easily score more...and he wouldnt be shooting worse to do it. More of his shots would be on the block, and triple threat jumpers, and going across the lane than the 19 footers and quick shots that lowered his percentages.

I dont believe bird was incapable of doing late 80s Jordan scoring numbers any more than i believe first 3 peat jordan couldnt score 35-37 a game like 80s jordan did.

But we cant really discuss that too deeply because you arent talking about ability to apply skills to scoring. you are talking about shit like true shooting percentages and such because thats what people argue with...because people for the most part dont know what they are talking about and numbers cant be debated.

It makes it...simple. but I dont do simple at the expense of what I can see.

And ive seen Bird play within the flow of the offense for 30 minutes then just as I thought we would win....stop...and go one on one 4-5 times in a row and make 3 shots and get fouled on another and make the FTs to beat us.

He...like most great scorers....could score much more and on high percentages if they chose to(or needed to) disregard their teammates.

Guys like Jordan...bird...even Kobe, AI, and Gervin...all of them could shoot better than they do/did...if they just set out to get themselves the best shot again and again.


But playing in an offense...especially an offense with other capable players....it limits your reason to do that. So more of your shots end up being less effective jumpers or quick moves that wont work at the rate that a guy like Bird...or Jordan..or....Pierce...or a lot of guys...can really score.

Guys like Bird dont shoot 48% because some guy can stop them over half the time. And Jordan didnt shoot what he shot in the 90s because only half the time(or less) could he make the shot were he just working into the best position to score and then shooting/attacking like he did in the 80s.

They shoot what they shoot as much because of their team and the offense as anything.

Birds great teammates kept defenses honest...at the same time they greatly limited his chances to really set out to just make basket after basket as he was more than capable of.

So in the end...I dont care what his numbers were.

Bird was one of the best/most crafty post players ive ever seen, one of the best midrange shooters ive ever seen, and couldnt be left open outside. Add to that an all time elite off hand, every move in the book from hooks, and floaters, and stepbacks to actually being able to make behind the basket jumpers....because he worked on them...and absurd body control in the air for his hops...

He was as good a scorer as ive ever seen. Period.

He wasnt better than Jordan. Nobody is better than Jordan. But ive seen nothing to suggest anyone is better than Bird either. Not as a scorer.

If Bird did the Dantley thing and just sought out ISOs and demanded the ball in his sweet spots to attack 30 times a night he would have been doing 30+ a game on 55+ shooting too.

Same for Jordan.

The numbers dont matter much to me for that reason. Its thinking like yours that has people saying shit like this:








Im not the type who cares about such things.

I can explain quite simply without use of any numbers why MJ is a better scorer than say...Lebron. Who at times scores about as much as Jordan in the 90s.

I could not do that to explain why hes a better scorer than Bird. And if I tried I couldnt conclude its a major difference.

I just never saw it. I saw a major difference in numbers. But....

Great post, and I agree with the point you're making.

The Jordan example is a good one. I can say without a doubt in my mind that Jordan became a better scorer after '88 despite never having a more impressive scoring season statistically than '88. He was less ball dominant, though and his ability and skill set as a scorer was better than ever around '90 or '91.

There are a lot of examples. Kobe is another good one. Averages 29/6/6 on 47 FG%/59 TS% in the first half of '06-'07 and in the second half....37/6/5 on 46 FG%/57 TS%. Granted, he was recovering from knee surgery earlier, which was somewhat of a factor, but more important was his approach. He went off for those four consecutive 50 point games including 65 and 60 pretty much because he wanted to. Phil told him to shoot and that was the result.

2003 is another one. Kobe averages 27/8/7, 45 FG%/53 TS% over the first 42 games. Phil tells him to look for his shot more and makes him more of the first option and he responds with 33/6/5, 46 FG%/57 TS% over the last 40 games including the nine straight 40+ games and thirteen consecutive 35+ games.

Shaq averaged 30/14/4 on 57 FG%/58 TS% in the 2000 season, but over his last 20 games, he averaged 36/12/4 on 60 FG%/62 TS%.

You can pick pretty much any of Hakeem's 80's seasons as well.

1986- averages 24/12 on 53 FG%/56 TS%, but in 20 playoff games he was at 27/12 on 53 FG%/57 TS%
1987- averages 23/11 on 51 FG%/55 TS%, but averaged 29/11 on 62 FG%/66 TS% in 11 playoff games.
1988- averages 23/12 on 51 FG%/56 TS% in the regular season, but averaged 38/17 on 57 FG%/64 TS% in the first round vs Dallas.

But it's obviously not the best for the team for a player to just look for his points all the time and score as much as possible.

Though regarding Bird, he didn't necessarily just shoot his best in the seasons he took the most shots simply because he took more shots. He also got better and was probably a more capable scorer from '85-'88 than any other point. After losing to the Bucks in '83 he decided he was going to work harder in the offseason than before and the following offseason he focused more on his shooting than ever before which I believe plays a role in his scoring numbers being at their best from '88-'88 with '86 a little lower statistically due to his early season struggles with the back injury.

But I will also say that I think Jordan was a better scorer than Bird. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't influenced by the numbers at all, but his quickness and athleticism gives him the edge, imo. Bird was a better shooter, had as good of an off hand as anyone, but by the time Jordan had become an excellent shooter himself and a really polished skillset combined with the athleticism(early 90's), he was the greatest scorer ever, imo.

[Da_Realist]

Yes.



Passing is about good court vision and knowing exactly where your teamate is or is going to be. Dribbling is irrelevant. Steve Francis had crazy handles too.



With exception of Kareem, Bird and Magic made their teammates HOFers. Otherwise they would most likely have wound up a tier below as semi-regular allstars. MJs style of play simply doesn't make his teammates better like Magic, Bird, or Russell.



Jordan needed teammates tailored to fit around him. Bird and Magic's style of play was more mutable and they knew exactly how to get the most out of their teammates. Sorry if you can't seem to grasp that. I never said that Bird or Magic were better individual players than MJ, but rather better teammates.



You fail to grasp the difference between elevating and carrying.



Same as above. Carrying your teammates and elevating them are two very different things.

Gotta say...this was a great post, greymatter.

[Da_Realist]

Well what else would you say? You dont care about thinking past any number that makes Jordan look good because thats pretty much your only purpose. you have been doing this shit for 7 or 8 years.

The "Yea he could shoot more to score more but he wouldnt shoot as well" case is the obvious one to make...but not to someone like me who doesnt need to see their numbers to judge them....because I sat there and saw it live. At times live in person.

For players on their level the numbers are pretty much what they decide to make them. I dont care any more that Bird scored 21-25 a game some years than I care that Jordan didnt score over 35 after the 80s even though he was just as good a scorer or better. It means NOTHING to me. At all.


If you look at how Bird(and Jordan) scored it should be clear that they could shoot more...and shoot a better percentage because of it. The Bird I remember was pretty much chilling taking shots as they came and going long stretches without actually setting out to create his own shot to score in a real isolation situation. If he just set out to get and make a shot...not to run offense and get guys open and take long jumpers and all....if he just decided to go score...he could easily shoot more and shoot better.

Jordan was the same way. He shot better putting up 35 a game than he did putting up 30. And it wasnt as simple as defenses getting a little better(though they did). He played more team ball. If Jordan or Bird set out to just make a shot for themselves 15 times a game and take 10 more in the flow they probably shoot better on those 25 shots than if they play in the flow and take 20 shots.

It wasnt by chance Bird shot the highest percentages of his career when he shot the most. he shot 52 and 53% in his highest shot attempt seasons.

Attacking Bird scores at a better rate than passive "one of the guys" bird just like attacking jordan did.

If Bird knows his team needs him to go out and score his ass off he could easily score more...and he wouldnt be shooting worse to do it. More of his shots would be on the block, and triple threat jumpers, and going across the lane than the 19 footers and quick shots that lowered his percentages.

I dont believe bird was incapable of doing late 80s Jordan scoring numbers any more than i believe first 3 peat jordan couldnt score 35-37 a game like 80s jordan did.

But we cant really discuss that too deeply because you arent talking about ability to apply skills to scoring. you are talking about shit like true shooting percentages and such because thats what people argue with...because people for the most part dont know what they are talking about and numbers cant be debated.

It makes it...simple. but I dont do simple at the expense of what I can see.

And ive seen Bird play within the flow of the offense for 30 minutes then just as I thought we would win....stop...and go one on one 4-5 times in a row and make 3 shots and get fouled on another and make the FTs to beat us.

He...like most great scorers....could score much more and on high percentages if they chose to(or needed to) disregard their teammates.

Guys like Jordan...bird...even Kobe, AI, and Gervin...all of them could shoot better than they do/did...if they just set out to get themselves the best shot again and again.


But playing in an offense...especially an offense with other capable players....it limits your reason to do that. So more of your shots end up being less effective jumpers or quick moves that wont work at the rate that a guy like Bird...or Jordan..or....Pierce...or a lot of guys...can really score.

Guys like Bird dont shoot 48% because some guy can stop them over half the time. And Jordan didnt shoot what he shot in the 90s because only half the time(or less) could he make the shot were he just working into the best position to score and then shooting/attacking like he did in the 80s.

They shoot what they shoot as much because of their team and the offense as anything.

Birds great teammates kept defenses honest...at the same time they greatly limited his chances to really set out to just make basket after basket as he was more than capable of.

So in the end...I dont care what his numbers were.

Bird was one of the best/most crafty post players ive ever seen, one of the best midrange shooters ive ever seen, and couldnt be left open outside. Add to that an all time elite off hand, every move in the book from hooks, and floaters, and stepbacks to actually being able to make behind the basket jumpers....because he worked on them...and absurd body control in the air for his hops...

He was as good a scorer as ive ever seen. Period.

He wasnt better than Jordan. Nobody is better than Jordan. But ive seen nothing to suggest anyone is better than Bird either. Not as a scorer.

If Bird did the Dantley thing and just sought out ISOs and demanded the ball in his sweet spots to attack 30 times a night he would have been doing 30+ a game on 55+ shooting too.

Same for Jordan.

The numbers dont matter much to me for that reason. Its thinking like yours that has people saying shit like this:








Im not the type who cares about such things.

I can explain quite simply without use of any numbers why MJ is a better scorer than say...Lebron. Who at times scores about as much as Jordan in the 90s.

I could not do that to explain why hes a better scorer than Bird. And if I tried I couldnt conclude its a major difference.

I just never saw it. I saw a major difference in numbers. But....

As usual... great post.

[Kblaze8855]

And im 100% ok with the idea that Jordan is a better scorer than Bird. But to say a case cant even be made that they are roughly equal and defending it with those numbers just strikes me as something said by someone too into the numbers to see the game in front of them.

Its almost like the people claiming Mcgrady hurt his Orlando teams due to being a "chucker".

I just cant for the life of me figure out what makes people who watch the same game I do think all these numbers really show how good these people are.

There is so much evidence that guys on their level can...pretty much do what they feel like. You mentioned many. Bird has so many stories and games showing it too. Bird can just...get bored on a road trip and decide to murder a team left handed. So he drops 47/14/11 on the Blazers after telling his team hes gonna have fun with them. Same year Mchale and Walton and some others were not playing as hard as he thought they should. They lost to the Mavs in a game Bird had 50/11 and I think had a weak showing vs someone else. Walton(In Birds 50th birthday interview on NBA.com) said he came in and told them if they were not gonna play hard he would do all the scoring himself.

He goes out and shots like 10/11 in the first half(I think Walton said it was the first 20 minutes) with like 30 points just to prove he could...ends the game going 12/13 for 30 something because he stopped shooting once he had made his point. That month he averaged 31/9/7 on 56% shooting, 54% from 3, and 90+ from the line. And They won like 15 games in a row. He didnt shoot that well any other month that season. He shot worse, less times, and scored less.

Not like he just got worse when he was doing 19ppg the month after that or 24 a game on worse shooting in months before it.

If Bird played that 90s Isolation attacking style I wouldnt put it beyond him to drop 35 a game on 55% shooting. But why would he?

What would be his motivation? On those teams? He might do it to make a point...or...just to get the Celtics scoring record from a guy he had a friendly rivalry with(as whe nhe dropped 60 on the Hawks to beat Mchales 57).

But he wasnt just gonna go crazy on teams.

So I dont find his numbers that important regarding his scoring ability.

[Micku]

So I dont find his numbers that important regarding his scoring ability.

You could say that about a lot of NBA players, can't you? Like could Magic average more ppg if he sought out to? He could probably, but how much could he average over the course of nba season? And could he score 35+ ppg like Jordan could with that much efficiency with his level of consistency?

Same thing with Bird, but Bird showed that he could average 30 ppg in the regular season. But he never proved that he could keep it up like Jordan did the majority of his career. It's entirely his fault since injuries did overcame him.

I think numbers are important to find a indication of a person's scoring ability. But I do think that you would have to watch the games to see "he could score more, but choose not to" feel. That will never show up in the numbers. But I don't think you should ignore the numbers entirely.

A lot of great players have nights where they could score like mad, and they could score more if they wanted to, but they are not necessary a better or roughly equal scorer than Jordan because they probably cannot do that in a consistent basis. In the playoffs, the only time Jordan didn't average 30 ppg or above was in his rookie year. And the regular seasons speaks for itself. And Jordan for the most part was always efficient.

I think there are more players that you can say that are more comparable to Jordan's scoring ability than Bird even though Bird was a great scorer himself.

But it depends on your definition of being a great scorer. Is a scorer means putting up points, points with efficiency, having the skills to score everywhere on the floor, or everything above?

[bizil]

Try learning how to comprehend what you read. I know where Bird is generally ranked. What I said is that were his career mostly healthy and he had a good 15-16 years longevity, he would likely have bene in the discussion between #1 and 2 all time with MJ.

For one I know how to read hater! I was just stating my opinion and saying Bird is CLEARLY IN THE TOP 5 OR 6! So therefore, IT WASN'T MUCH MORE HE COULD DO TO GET TO #2! Cause the man is already seen as a top 5 player! Posters like u are sensitive like little girls! U wanna come on here and criticize people. Then get sensitive like a bitch when people state an opinion. And instead of making an opinion, u wanna make a personal attack. Kiss my black ass hater! That's why I stated it took more than health for him to get as high as #2. What was his cast gonna be like around him. When the Bulls really got going, would a healthy Bird be merely enough to **** with the Bulls? I doubted cause it wasn't the same Celtics as the mid 80's. THAT'S WHY I STATED LENNY BIAS ALIVE COULD HAVE BEEN THE PIECE TO GO WITH BIRD! And get him more rings. MJ has six rings. Magic has five rings. Kareem has six rings. Wilt is Goliath and an icon. For Bird to have pass those four CLEARLY, he would need some more rings to seal it. Bias could have helped him in that regard!

Bird with an aging Mchale and Parish wouldn't have been enough to beat the Bulls. Fox, X Man, and Sherman isnt the same as Ainge, Walton, and DJ. Put Lenny Bias with those teams starting in '86 and the Celtics could have maybe won 5 rings in the 80's. Then in the 90's maybe take a ring or two as well. Which would have got Bird 6 or 7 rings maybe. And THEN be in contention for top 2 of all time. It was more than health, Bird would need the cast to get in MJ's way. Bias would have been the guy to assist him in that regard.

[bizil]

Many people forget to two things about MJ. One is the evolution of the man in the all around sense. Two is the cast of teammates MJ had to play with. Trust me it's easier to pass to McHale, Parish, Ainge, DJ, and Walton. Those guys are very good to great players to begin with. DJ was an All NBA guard BEFORE he even go to the Celtics. It's the same with Magic. He had Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, Worthy, Scott, and McAdoo all around him during his career. MJ NEVER had that kind of talent around him. So MJ had to carry a bigger scoring load to being with. Put Bird on the Bulls in place of MJ. Bird would have been more focused on scoring than he was with Boston.

I've conceded Bird is a better passer than MJ. But I don't think leaps and bounds better. MJ's handle and pace was more similar to a PG. MJ is also along with West the premier passing SG of all time in my book. So if MJ can break a defense down better than Bird and drop dimes, that closes the gap. MJ is arguably the premier slasher of all time who was a freak athlete on top of it. So he could penetrate and drop off dimes in a fashion Bird could never do. For one MJ will put the ultimate fear in a D just by going to the hole anyway. So that makes it even better to drop dimes. So ya Bird is the better passer. But not leaps and bounds cause MJ could pass in a manner and fashion more similar to a PG in terms of breaking down a defense. So NO Bird is not LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than MJ passing the pill. I'm talking the evolution of MJ's game and not MJ in '84, '85, or '86. U can't just gloss over MJ's assist numbers. And to compare Francis to MJ in ANY WAY is ridiculous. Francis wasn't anywhere close to MJ in terms of passing. No knock on Steve cause he was a very good player. But MJ's IQ and passing ability gets criminally underrated!

[kizut1659]

Obviously in the top 10 all-time but no case for GOAT. Among other things, while Bird was obviously a good passer, people are overrating him in that regard. 6 assists per game are good but he was no Magic. If anything, I think Bird could have passed a bit MORE given the presence of McHale, who shot 55%+ from the floor.

Also, just like people are criticizing Kobe's finals performances, Bird's finals performances also need to be taken into account.

1981-15/15/7 on 42%
1984-27/14/3.6 on 48%
1985- 24/9/5 on 44%
1986- 24/9+/9+ on 48%
1987 24/10/5.5 on 44%

Bird thus only had truly good finals in 1984 and 1986 - and 1986 was against the Houston team that was not ready for prime time.

Bird's relatively poor defense and lack of longevity likewise cannot be ignored.

[kizut1659]

Bird in terms of Making Others Better, is the Best Player Ever

Individually Magic, Jordan, Hakeem and Charles where Better but NO ONE could Make Teams Better than Bird

Bulshit - 6 assists per game is nothing special. I say that he should have passed more if anything given the presence of McHale and Parish - both very efficient scorers.

[upside24]

For me Bird has to be able to dominate in any era to be considered the goat and I don't think he would have as great an effect in today's game. Bird is obviously a fantastic player, but there are much better athletes at the 3 spot today and he would probably have to be a 4. He would be a tweener because of his average athleticism and I'm not sure he could defend stronger 4s.

[ThaRegul8r]

Bird is obviously a fantastic player, but there are much better athletes at the 3 spot today

There were much better athletes at the 3 spot when he actually played.

What's your point?

[Coffee Black]

Obviously in the top 10 all-time but no case for GOAT. Among other things, while Bird was obviously a good passer, people are overrating him in that regard. 6 assists per game are good but he was no Magic. If anything, I think Bird could have passed a bit MORE given the presence of McHale, who shot 55%+ from the floor.

Also, just like people are criticizing Kobe's finals performances, Bird's finals performances also need to be taken into account.

1981-15/15/7 on 42%
1984-27/14/3.6 on 48%
1985- 24/9/5 on 44%
1986- 24/9+/9+ on 48%
1987 24/10/5.5 on 44%

Bird thus only had truly good finals in 1984 and 1986 - and 1986 was against the Houston team that was not ready for prime time.

Bird's relatively poor defense and lack of longevity likewise cannot be ignored.

It sounds like you've never seen Bird play, not even in NBA Hardwood Classics programming.

[bizil]

Yes.



Passing is about good court vision and knowing exactly where your teamate is or is going to be. Dribbling is irrelevant. Steve Francis had crazy handles too.



With exception of Kareem, Bird and Magic made their teammates HOFers. Otherwise they would most likely have wound up a tier below as semi-regular allstars. MJs style of play simply doesn't make his teammates better like Magic, Bird, or Russell.



Jordan needed teammates tailored to fit around him. Bird and Magic's style of play was more mutable and they knew exactly how to get the most out of their teammates. Sorry if you can't seem to grasp that. I never said that Bird or Magic were better individual players than MJ, but rather better teammates.



You fail to grasp the difference between elevating and carrying.



Same as above. Carrying your teammates and elevating them are two very different things.

How dare u say dribbling is irrelevant! That is ludricrious! Especially for guys who are PG's like Magic, Stock,Nash, Kidd, Cousy, etc. Dribbling puts the D back on its feet. It collapses the D. It keeps the D guessing. For u to say dribbling is irrelveant is more laughable than my favorite Sanford and Son episode. They didn't put a 6'9 PG like Magic at PG because he just merely had good vision. It was because he was an excellent ball handler who ran the meanest fastbreak of all time. Have u ever heard of SHOWTIME! Same with others who ran great fastbreaks in Stock, Isiah, Nash, etc. Bird could never break down a defense the way MJ in the half court with handles. And MJ was an excellent passer as well. So in that sense MJ was a better passer than Bird flat out. If anything Bird was better from a stationery position. Or off an offensive rebound. Or off a curl and making a quick decision. A huge part of being a great passer for perimeter players is what u do off the dribble penetrating a defense. Not saying its the be all end all, but's it's damn essential.

Once again u keep glossing over the fact Bird played with multiple HOFer. And formed the greatest frontline of all time. McHale and Parish would have been All Stars without Bird. Sure Bird enhanced them. But McHale enhanced Bird too cause McHale at 6'10 or 6'11 checked the Nique's, Dr. J's, Kings, etc. while Bird checked the PF's.

[Round Mound]

Bulshit - 6 assists per game is nothing special. I say that he should have passed more if anything given the presence of McHale and Parish - both very efficient scorers.

Are you trying to tell me that Jordan was a Better or as Good Passer as Bird? :roll: :facepalm Please...not even close. Bird was the Best Passing Forward Ever. Assist don`t tell the story either

Bird made McHale and Parish much better than they actually where.

Jordan made no one Better because he wasn`t a Multi Positional Skilled Player like for example Bird, Magic, Chalres, Hakeen and Pippen was.

Its a fact that when MJ left the Bulls still won 55 games (2 less than the year before) and Pippen made everyone raise his FG% including himself. He finished Top 10 in DRT again and Top 4 in PER.

Bird left and look at what happened to the Celtics even with Growing Star Lewis.

Jordan was Better than Bird but he wasn`t close to as Good Passer, Creator, Rebounder, Did Not Have The Vision and Wasn`t a Multi Positional dude like Bird was and Post D that Bird had (Bird had seasons when he was Top 2 in DRT and Top 10 a couple of times he Lead the League in Play-Off DRT early in the 80s too).

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan made no one Better

This is ****ing ridiculous. :oldlol:

[KevinNYC]

Bird lost 7 series with HCA, the most of any all time great and never won any series without it. In fact he got swept with HCA in 1983 to the Bucks a team that hadn't won anything. Lost game 7 at home to the Sixers before Moses Malone even came.

The Bucks hadn't won anything, but they were better than the Lakers that year and the only team to give Philly trouble in the playoffs. They were the second best team in the NBA that year. Bird has said the 83 Celtics just never got their chemistry right for whatever reason.

[Round Mound]

This is ****ing ridiculous. :oldlol:

- Explain to me why he has loosing records without Pippen and Grant
- Explain to me why he was not succesful untill Phil Jackson told him "Pippen would be the Creator and Set him Loose (Multipositional Player too)"
- Explain to me why in 1985-86 the Bulls still managed to the make it to the Play-Offs WITHOUT MJ?
- Explain to me why when Jordan Left for the 1993-94 season...ALL OF THE BULLS PLAYERS SHOT A HIGHER FG% and Pippen ranked 4th In PER? BJ, Grant and Pippen = All Stars?

Jordan was the Best Individual Player but Not even Close to the Best Team Player.

[bizil]

McHale and Parish would have been All Stars WITHOUT Bird. Sure Bird made them even better. But they did things to enhance Bird as well. Particularly on D cause McHale was usually checking the premier SF's. Go look at the tape with Bird vs. Nique. Nique guarded Bird. But McHale checked Nique most of that game. McHale had such a sick arsenal that he would have been HOF talent anywhere and anytime.

[bizil]

Those that say MJ wasn't a multi dimesional, multi faceted player are wrong. At 6'6 and 200-215 pounds, he could and did ANYTHING on a bball court. He could run PG, SG, and SF. He could also defend all three spots as well. Inside the three point line, he developed the sickest arsenal of all time for a perimeter player. But MJ could get hot from threeball range as well.

I don't see how anybody can say Bird and Magic enhanced their teammates WAY MORE than MJ did. And once again look at the talent Bird and Magic had to play with. Wilkes, Kareem,and Nixon were all sick BEFORE MAGIC SHOWED UP! But no doubt Magic enhanced them as well.

[KevinNYC]

He might do it to make a point...or...just to get the Celtics scoring record from a guy he had a friendly rivalry with(as whe nhe dropped 60 on the Hawks to beat Mchales 57).

So I dont find his numbers that important regarding his scoring ability.

Red Auerbach said statistics meant nothing when you evaluated what Bird brought to a game.

I too am of the opinion that if McHale set the Celtics scoring record with 64, Bird would have found a way to get 68. McHale had the record for about two weeks if I remember correctly.

Just looked it up

On March 12, just nine days after McHale scored 56, Larry Bird established a new Celtics' single-game scoring mark by pouring in 60 points versus the Atlanta Hawks.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

- Explain to me why he has loosing records without Pippen and Grant
- Explain to me why he was not succesful untill Phil Jackson told him "Pippen would be the Creator and Set him Loose (Multipositional Player too)"
- Explain to me why in 1985-86 the Bulls still managed to the make it to the Play-Offs WITHOUT MJ?
- Explain to me why when Jordan Left for the 1993-94 season...ALL OF THE BULLS PLAYERS SHOT A HIGHER FG% and Pippen ranked 4th In PER? BJ, Grant and Pippen = All Stars?

Jordan was the Best Individual Player but Not even Close to the Best Team Player.


Oh snap! Tell 'em!

Putting Jordan in the same passing and team player universe as Bird and Magic is absurd. Jordan was amazing but as time passes his legend is starting to obscure reality. Only in the second half of his career when Jackson came and installed the the triangle did Jordan become a good and willing passer that would make plays for others. At his best he was an excellent passer. Bird and Magic were Gods of passing and they didn't need some coach to come in and tell them to do it. They understood the value of passing in high school, college and the pros, regardless of the talent level of their teammates.

Jordan was a great scorer, very skilled player, great will to win, great work ethic, great defender, great winner(eventually). But let's not get carried away and start acting like he invented the league. No he wasn't the first player to dribble the ball between his legs and he wasn't the passer that Bird and Magic were.

not by LEAPS AND BOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ThaRegul8r]

Putting Jordan in the same passing and team player universe as Bird and Magic is absurd. Jordan was amazing but as time passes his legend is starting to obscure reality. Only in the second half of his career when Jackson came and installed the the triangle did Jordan become a good and willing passer that would make plays for others. At his best he was an excellent passer. Bird and Magic were Gods of passing and they didn't need some coach to come in and tell them to do it. They understood the value of passing in high school, college and the pros, regardless of the talent level of their teammates.

Jordan was a great scorer, very skilled player, great will to win, great work ethic, great defender, great winner(eventually). But let's not get carried away and start acting like he invented the league. No he wasn't the first player to dribble the ball between his legs and he wasn't the passer that Bird and Magic were.

not by LEAPS AND BOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

One problem is that since "most people" think Jordan is the GOAT, this also means that he had to be the best in every aspect pertaining to basketball. Therefore, there can't possibly be anyone who was better at anything basketball-related, because Jordan is the GOAT. (I see Kobe is in your avatar and user name, and hope that nothing I say regarding this matter will be seen as proof supporting any particular agenda. Perhaps this is unfounded, but I've seen too much over the years from posters with players' names in their handle and/or pictures in their avatar.)

[KevinNYC]

McHale and Parish would have been All Stars WITHOUT Bird. Sure Bird made them even better. But they did things to enhance Bird as well. Particularly on D cause McHale was usually checking the premier SF's. Go look at the tape with Bird vs. Nique. Nique guarded Bird. But McHale checked Nique most of that game. McHale had such a sick arsenal that he would have been HOF talent anywhere and anytime.

Who has said they wouldn't be All-Stars? The argument is they wouldn't have become Hall of Famers without Bird. I agree with that argument. Put them a good, but not elite team in the 80's like the Bucks and they wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I believe they both talked about how he helped their games, getting them spacing and delivering the ball, and not just passing it, but getting to them in the perfect spot and in perfect rhythm. Also career-wise Bird was always pushing McHale to get better. Bird feels he could have been even greater than he was.

I think Parish would have been forgotten if he played for another team. He was never one to toot his own horn and his game was very solid, but not flashy.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

One problem is that since "most people" think Jordan is the GOAT, this also means that he had to be the best in every aspect pertaining to basketball. Therefore, there can't possibly be anyone who was better at anything basketball-related, because Jordan is the GOAT. (I see Kobe is in your avatar and user name, and hope that nothing I say regarding this matter will be seen as proof supporting any particular agenda. Perhaps this is unfounded, but I've seen too much over the years from posters with players' names in their handle and/or pictures in their avatar.)

I'm not one of those people who are obsessed with proving that so and so is "better". I try to look at things as objectivley as I can. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Wilt, Jabbar, Lebron......these guys are all the best in the world. I appreciate all these guys for who they are and I realize that my personal "rankings" don't mean shit and are an utter waste of time.

[Asukal]

Jordan was the Best Individual Player but Not even Close to the Best Team Player.

I'd agree that Jordan is not a better passer or rebounder than Bird but....

Explain to me how Jordan averaged 8rpg 8apg playing point guard if he did not make his team mates better. This was before Phil came to Chicago and Pippen was still in his 2nd year. EXPLAIN TO ME! :confusedshrug:

[KevinNYC]

Originally Posted by Micku
It's actually too bad that Bird had that back injury and the finger injury he had before his NBA career could start. It would be a interesting "what if" that stuff never happen to him. All of them happen off the court I believe.

It's nice to think Bird's could've been better than he actually was in his NBA career, but it's only a "what if" thing.


Bird's back injury happened in the 80's, the one plowing his moms driveway. Is there another?


I think that's about it of Bird's career ending injuries. He had a few injuries in his career, but nothing too major like those I think. It slowed him down. How much did it slow him down is something to argue I guess.
The injury to the his index finger on his shooting hand was caused by a line drive in a softball game, hit by I believe his brother. It was after college right before he signed with the Celtics. And it threatened his contract. When the doctor has to see his finger, Bird showed him his left hand. Then Red Auerbach said he wanted to watch him shoot and Bird made a bunch of jumpers and Red said he was fine to sign.

The back injury was not from plowing his Mom's driveway, it was from shoveling gravel. This was in the offseason in 1985.

However, that was just the beginning of his back injuries, a back injury like that you keep reinjuring it and then it affects your whole mobility.

Also You're forgetting the time he snapped both Achilles tendons on the same play and missed an entire season because he needed surgery to remove bone spurs.

The woman who wrote When The Game was Ours, points out that Bird had a congenital back problem

Bird’s very first back injury was actually caused shoveling gravel in his back yard. He had put in a new basketball court at his home and he had asked his kid brother Eddie and some of his friends to spread the gravel around. When Eddie didn’t do it “Bird was so angry he said the heck with it I’ll do it myself and while he was shoveling gravel for the first time he felt extreme pain in his back.” MacMullan adds that Bird had “a congenital back problem” to begin with. “The canal that led the nerves through his spine was too small. He was going to end up with those back problems anyway but it was started in typical blue-collar lunch pail style with Bird shoveling his own gravel.” During the 1992 season, which he knew was going to be his last, Bird had to wear a fiberglass body brace much of the time he wasn’t playing. Off the court, he couldn’t drive more than ten feet, MacMullan said. “He’d have to get out of his car and stand up.” “He was having trouble practicing with the team and he didn’t feel like he was going to be able to be a contributor to the team. His back was shot. He was really in a bad way” and he was headed for major back surgery. When Bird had back fusion surgery and knew he could never play again, so that it was easy for him to stick with his decision to stay retired.

[Round Mound]

Oh snap! Tell 'em!

Putting Jordan in the same passing and team player universe as Bird and Magic is absurd. Jordan was amazing but as time passes his legend is starting to obscure reality. Only in the second half of his career when Jackson came and installed the the triangle did Jordan become a good and willing passer that would make plays for others. At his best he was an excellent passer. Bird and Magic were Gods of passing and they didn't need some coach to come in and tell them to do it. They understood the value of passing in high school, college and the pros, regardless of the talent level of their teammates.

Jordan was a great scorer, very skilled player, great will to win, great work ethic, great defender, great winner(eventually). But let's not get carried away and start acting like he invented the league. No he wasn't the first player to dribble the ball between his legs and he wasn't the passer that Bird and Magic were.

not by LEAPS AND BOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[B]Amen. :applause:

Magic and Bird are the Best Passers Ever Regarding for Tall Men.

The Best Creator and Timing Passer was John Stockton., then Magic.

Jordan is the Best Individual Player but later on developed Better Passing but it wasn`

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I'd agree that Jordan is not a better passer or rebounder than Bird but....

Explain to me how Jordan averaged 8rpg 8apg playing point guard if he did not make his team mates better. This was before Phil came to Chicago and Pippen was still in his 2nd year. EXPLAIN TO ME! :confusedshrug:

And the Bulls did what in the playoffs that year. They got schooled by Detroit with virtually the same roster that won it all in 1991. 8 and 8 are good stats for a guard no doubt, but stats don't tell the whole story. I would hope a player with the ball in his hands in every single possesion would be able to get 8 assist per game. Also, the evidence on Jordan with his teamates at that time is pretty damning. The things his teammates had to say about him weren't what I would call complimentary. He wasn't exactly lifting them up and nurturing their games. More like belittling and blamestorming.

[bizil]

I'd agree that Jordan is not a better passer or rebounder than Bird but....

Explain to me how Jordan averaged 8rpg 8apg playing point guard if he did not make his team mates better. This was before Phil came to Chicago and Pippen was still in his 2nd year. EXPLAIN TO ME! :confusedshrug:

Exactly right! I don't get how people can say Jordan didn't make his teammates better. Steve Kerr on NBA Open Court even said it took MJ a lil while to get that down. But the bottom line is he got that down. I wouldn't argue somebody saying Bird is a better passer and rebounder than MJ. But as far as boards, Bird was 6'9 230 pounds and played lots of PF. Jordan was as good a rebounder as u could be as a guard. In terms of passing, Bird was better, but not leaps and bounds better. Leaps and bounds means if Bird and Magic are a 10 at passing , then MJ is a 5 or 6. When in reality, MJ was an 8-9 in passing. Especially for a SG.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Exactly right! I don't get how people can say Jordan didn't make his teammates better. Steve Kerr on NBA Open Court even said it took MJ a lil while to get that down. But the bottom line is he got that down. I wouldn't argue somebody saying Bird is a better passer and rebounder than MJ. But as far as boards, Bird was 6'9 230 pounds and played lots of PF. Jordan was as good a rebounder as u could be as a guard. In terms of passing, Bird was better, but not leaps and bounds better. Leaps and bounds means if Bird and Magic are a 10 at passing , then MJ is a 5 or 6. When in reality, MJ was an 8-9 in passing. Especially for a SG.

MJ an 8 or 9? GTFO. In 1991 maybe he got to that 8 level only by finally realizing that when the entire oppsing team collapses on you it might be a good idea to kick it to the wide open guy under the basket. Not what I would call legendary playmaking.

[bizil]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Amen. :applause:

Magic and Bird are the Best Passers Ever Regarding for Tall Men.

The Best Creator and Timing Passer was John Stockton., then Magic.

Jordan is the Best Individual Player but later on developed Better Passing but it wasn`

[bizil]

MJ an 8 or 9? GTFO. In 1991 maybe he got to that 8 level only by finally realizing that when the entire oppsing team collapses on you it might be a good idea to kick it to the wide open guy under the basket. Not what I would call legendary playmaking.

MJ was clearly an 8 or 9 level passer in my book. And before 1991! U gotta look at that guys MJ played with in his career too. When MJ played on the Dream Team, he deferred alot. I believe he was the third leading scorer on team. He focused on being a defensive stopper and playmaking. So if MJ has the talent, he will adapt.

Secondly, I said AS TIME WENT ON MJ BECAME AN EXCELLENT PASSER. Wow the lack of respect the GOAT gets. He had the total package. MJ was closer to Bird's passing level than Bird was the MJ's defensive abilities! Ask experts in the know and they would tell u MJ was anywhere from an 8-9 out of 10 in passing ability. Bird, Magic, Nash, Stockton, Big O, Isiah, etc. would rank a 10. Damn u guys get mad sensitive on here. When from day one I said Bird was the better passer. But not LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than MJ. But enough to make the distinction. However, MJ IS BETTER THAN BIRD IN TERMS OF BREAKING DOWN A DEFENSE FINDING THE OPEN MAN! Which is an art in itself. MJ could do that as good as many PG's not named Stock, Magic, Isiah, etc. of his or any era.

[bizil]

Who has said they wouldn't be All-Stars? The argument is they wouldn't have become Hall of Famers without Bird. I agree with that argument. Put them a good, but not elite team in the 80's like the Bucks and they wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I believe they both talked about how he helped their games, getting them spacing and delivering the ball, and not just passing it, but getting to them in the perfect spot and in perfect rhythm. Also career-wise Bird was always pushing McHale to get better. Bird feels he could have been even greater than he was.

I think Parish would have been forgotten if he played for another team. He was never one to toot his own horn and his game was very solid, but not flashy.

I was that saying that in general. The HOF involves talent, solo accolades, numbers, team accolades, and longevity being great. In terms of talent, McHale was an HOF level talent. Parish maybe not. But McHale I feel could have been like Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Nique, etc. and make the HOF WITHOUT a ring. Parish I agree might not have made it without a ring or in a different situation.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

MJ was clearly an 8 or 9 level passer in my book. And before 1991! U gotta look at that guys MJ played with in his career too. When MJ played on the Dream Team, he deferred alot. I believe he was the third leading scorer on team. He focused on being a defensive stopper and playmaking. So if MJ has the talent, he will adapt.

Secondly, I said AS TIME WENT ON MJ BECAME AN EXCELLENT PASSER. Wow the lack of respect the GOAT gets. He had the total package. MJ was closer to Bird's passing level than Bird was the MJ's defensive abilities! Ask experts in the know and they would tell u MJ was anywhere from an 8-9 out of 10 in passing ability. Bird, Magic, Nash, Stockton, Big O, Isiah, etc. would rank a 10. Damn u guys get mad sensitive on here. When from day one I said Bird was the better passer. But not LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than MJ. But enough to make the distinction. However, MJ IS BETTER THAN BIRD IN TERMS OF BREAKING DOWN A DEFENSE FINDING THE OPEN MAN! Which is an art in itself. MJ could do that as good as many PG's not named Stock, Magic, Isiah, etc. of his or any era.

We'll agree to disagree. It's all a matter of opinion anyway.

[Kblaze8855]

Parish and Mchale were great players. But lets just be real...

Robert Parish was 27 when he became a Celtic. he was on the warriors for like 4 or 5 years.

Tell me one thing you heard about him on Golden State.

Anyone?

Robert didnt need Bird to play well. he was a beast well into his 30s and a quality player in his 40s long after Bird was gone. Im just saying...

Before he was a Celtic...the career he was having...he might be as remembered as Otis Thorpe.