Will Kobe Bryant retire with the most all star, defensive team and all nba selections

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All-NBA Team Selections by Player

1. Kareem 15
1.. Kobe 15
2. Malone 14
2.. Shaq 14

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 14
2. Kobe 12
2. Garnett 12

All Star Selections

1. Kareem 19
2. Shaq 15
2. Kobe 15
2. Garnett 15
3. West 14
3. Jordan 14
3. Malone 14

UPDATED with 2012-2013 results

[ClutchBucketz]

All NBA almost surely, i'm not sure about defensive team he seems to get there partially on reputation these days and all stars he probably will seeing as he's always gonna get the fan vote and if he one year happens to fall out the coaches will likely pull a Tim Duncan and throw him in anyway.:hammerhead:

[32Dayz]

Kobe will get All-D 1st team until he is 50 years old.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Most All NBA Teams yes, the rest no

[32Dayz]

Most All NBA Teams yes, the rest no

How many more do you think he has in him?

2-3?

He'll probably get one this season.. and maybe the next 2.. trying to think who can take his place.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Do you guys really believe that the idea of a player getting partly by on his reputation began and ended with Kobe Bryant?

:roll:

It happens with every single legend in this game.

[32Dayz]

Do you guys really believe that the idea of a player getting partly by on his reputation began and ended with Kobe Bryant?

:roll:

It happens with every single legend in this game.

Cmon.. thats true to an extent but even you can admit the All-D award thing with him is ridiculous.

I probably wouldn't have given him any 1st Teams since 04 or so. (All-D) I am referring to.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Cmon.. thats true to an extent but even you can admit the All-D award thing with him is ridiculous.

I probably wouldn't have given him any 1st Teams since 04 or so.

What's ridiculous about it? I see a consistent bias towards stars players throughout its history. :confusedshrug:

[ClutchBucketz]

Do you guys really believe that the idea of a player getting partly by on his reputation began and ended with Kobe Bryant?

:roll:

It happens with every single legend in this game.

insecure much? never said he wasn't the first to get that treatment, just saying that reputation only lasts so long. There's no doubt that reputation has helped him the last couple of seasons so it becomes a question how much longer it'll last.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

insecure much? never said he wasn't the first to get that treatment, just saying that reputation only lasts so long. There's no doubt that reputation has helped him the last couple of seasons so it becomes a question how much longer it'll last.

Sorry that comment was really directed towards you, just the incessant whining about Kobe's all defensive team selections in general.

[StroShow4]

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11
2. Garnett 11
2. B Jones 11



Looking at his ridiculous amount of all-D selections in a historical context makes it even worse. :facepalm

[kidachi]

Kobe will get All-D 1st team until he is 50 years old.

:oldlol: Agreed

As long as Kobe is in the league. His name will be on the All-D team.

not even hatin. He's great and all but the All-D selections.. UGGGGH!

[Cali Syndicate]

What's ridiculous about it? I see a consistent bias towards stars players throughout its history. :confusedshrug:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

His reputation precedes him.

[DaPerceive]

I have a feeling Kobe will grossly overrated once he is retired for about 2-3 years. He is probably going to be considered top 5 and maybe even top 3 by that time.

Players are treated differently in ancient times than they are in current times.

Olajuwon was never considered a top 10 player back when he was playing and at the end of his career, now people have him in the top 10 easily and some people even have him in the top 5. I suspect something similar happening with Kobe. Kobe, right now is not considered to be a top 5 or top 3 player of all-time but he is probably going to be considered top 3-5 once he is retired for about 2-3 years. The "I miss you" factor is a pretty huge concept.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

His reputation precedes him.

Because "defensive RAPM" has been what every other all defensive team award winner in history was based on?

:oldlol:

[jlip]

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11
2. Garnett 11
2. B Jones 11


Kareem's all defensive team selections are very impressive given that there is only one center chosen by team unlike the two for guards and forwards.

[32Dayz]

I have a feeling Kobe will grossly overrated once he is retired for about 2-3 years. He is probably going to be considered top 5 and maybe even top 3 by that time.

Players are treated differently in ancient times than they are in current times.

Olajuwon was never considered a top 10 player back when he was playing and at the end of his career, now people have him in the top 10 easily and some people even have him in the top 5. I suspect something similar happening with Kobe. Kobe, right now is not considered to be a top 5 or top 3 player of all-time but he is probably going to be considered top 3-5 once he is retired for about 2-3 years. The "I miss you" factor is a pretty huge concept.

Fair enough.

I feel "very strongly" that the exact opposite will happen.

Once he has retired for awhile and people can actually examine his performance more thoroughly and compare them to past ATGreats he will drop in the rankings.

He will go from 9-12 to something like 10/11-15.

I dont know many people who aren't Stans who rank Kobe higher then 9th or 10th at this point.

[I.R.Beast]

All NBA almost surely, i'm not sure about defensive team he seems to get there partially on reputation these days and all stars he probably will seeing as he's always gonna get the fan vote and if he one year happens to fall out the coaches will likely pull a Tim Duncan and throw him in anyway.:hammerhead:

LL DEFENSIVE IS ALWAYS FILLED WITH PLAYERS THAT DONT BELONG.....TRUE DEFENSIVE PLAYERS ARE SUPOSED TO POPPULATE THESE ALL DEFENSIVE TEAMS...nOT kOBE NO lEBRON NOT ANY SUPERSTAR THAT DOESNT D UP ON EVERY POSSESION THEY WAY A ROLE PLAYER WOULD.

[DaPerceive]

Fair enough.

I feel "very strongly" that the exact opposite will happen.

Once he has retired for awhile and people can actually examine his performance more thoroughly and compare them to past ATGreats he will drop in the rankings.

He will go from 9-12 to something like 10/11-15.

I dont know many people who aren't Stans who rank Kobe higher then 9th or 10th at this point.
It's going to depend on who you are talking to. If you are talking about those RealGM stat losers who are probably obese as hell, have never played a sport in their lives, and just sit around their computer all day looking up stats then you're probably right. Then again most of those losers don't even think Kobe is top 10 a player of all-time right now so they're probably never going to be convinced. Statistics don't tell the whole story and that is a concept those losers don't understand and why those losers underrate Kobe.

Kobe is going to be top 10 at the very least when it is all said and done.

[G-Funk]

he woulve had 14 allstars if it waste for the last lock out

[pauk]

he wont get any more 1st All-defensive selections tho... he was lucky he even got it last year...

but he maybe will get some more 1st All-NBA selections unless Wade has to say something else...

All-Star selections i think he will get ALL until he retires... i dont care if he will average 5 ppg starting from today... he WILL get in there... considering All-Star is more like a popularity contest...

[Cali Syndicate]

:wtf:
Because "defensive RAPM" has been what every other all defensive team award winner in history was based on?

:oldlol:


http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/umdatz/def20apm0311.jpg

It's not but don't tell me this is all coincidence.

My earlier statement still stands.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:wtf:


http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/umdatz/def20apm0311.jpg

It's not but don't tell me this is all coincidence.

My earlier statement still stands.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are calling into question the merit of Kobe's all defensive team awards by citing a statistic that is so widely valued that there is zero evidence that it has been used to influence a single all defensive team vote in history.

:facepalm

[Cali Syndicate]

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are calling into question the merit of Kobe's all defensive team awards by citing a statistic that is so widely valued that there is zero evidence that it has been used to influence a single all defensive team vote in history.

:facepalm

Actually there isn't any formula or statistic that falls into place when voting all defensive players. Coaches vote based on their opinions...

The stat provided above is only to shows the disparity, of THAT specific stat, between the players regarded as the top defensive players of the decade. And statistics in any aspect are similarly as "widely valued," so what's the point of even looking at statistics if that's the case?

Answer this - Do you honestly believe Kobe deserved a first all defensive team bid last season?

If yes, then no point continuing...everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's it.

If no, then you're agreeing his bid was sold through his reputation which was my entire point.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Actually there isn't any formula or statistic that falls into place when voting all defensive players. Coaches vote based on their opinions...

The stat provided above is only to shows the disparity, of THAT specific stat, between the players regarded as the top defensive players of the decade. And statistics in any aspect are similarly as "widely valued," so what's the point of even looking at statistics if that's the case?

Answer this - Do you honestly believe Kobe deserved a first all defensive team bid last season?

If yes, then no point continuing...everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's it.

If no, then you're agreeing his bid was sold through his reputation which was my entire point.

Given the history of the award and how it is given out I have yet to hear a compelling reason why Kobe shouldn't have gotten it. They dont hand the award to five scrubs who wouldnt be in the league if it wasnt for their defense which is what the "stat" guys appear to think should happen.

Do other players past and present especially high on the all defensive team list not have a reputation? Did it not exist for Jordan? Does it not exist for Duncan? Did it not exist for Kareem? Why do people act as if a reputation bias started with Kobe?

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many more do you think he has in him?

2-3?

He'll probably get one this season.. and maybe the next 2.. trying to think who can take his place.

3 if he plays 3 more years (he probably will)

[InspiredLebowski]

Y'know what's crazy about All-NBA teams and all that now? They can dictate how much a player's next contract is. The media can literally make a guys millions of extra dollars.

[Cali Syndicate]

Given the history of the award and how it is given out I have yet to hear a compelling reason why Kobe shouldn't have gotten it. They dont hand the award to five scrubs who wouldnt be in the league if it wasnt for their defense which is what the "stat" guys appear to think should happen.

Do other players past and present especially high on the all defensive team list not have a reputation? Did it not exist for Jordan? Does it not exist for Duncan? Did it not exist for Kareem? Why do people act as if a reputation bias started with Kobe?

Duncan hasn't had a defensive first team selection since 08 so no he doesn't get it based on reputation. Jordan into his mid 30's was still arguably one of the best defensive guards in the league. Kobe on the other hand is still getting first team bids even though Tony Allen and Iguoldala were far better defenders than Kobe last season. It's a shame Kobe gets first team bids yet Wade doesn't even get acknowledged.

And defensive bids are based on defense. If a player is a lock down defender, he deserves it regardless if he's a one dimensional "scrub." Kobe is still getting all NBA bids which is fine, he's still easily one of the best at his position. Although, Wade should have been all NBA over Kobe last season, but at least it's debatable. Defensively can't say the same.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Duncan hasn't had a defensive first team selection since 08 so no he doesn't get it based on reputation. Jordan into his mid 30's was still arguably one of the best defensive guards in the league. Kobe on the other hand is still getting first team bids even though Tony Allen and Iguoldala were far better defenders than Kobe last season. It's a shame Kobe gets first team bids yet Wade doesn't even get acknowledged.

And defensive bids are based on defense. If a player is a lock down defender, he deserves it regardless if he's a one dimensional "scrub." Kobe is still getting all NBA bids which is fine, he's still easily one of the best at his position. Although, Wade should have been all NBA over Kobe last season, but at least it's debatable. Defensively can't say the same.

Iguoldala is primarly a small forward, Tony Allen is a 20 min per game player :confusedshrug:

Wade is a far better defender based on what? You? Why does your opinion trump that of 30+ coaches? Let me guess you are a big believer in some obscure defensive stats that nobody in the real NBA actually cares about yet simultaneously ignore opposing PER as a defensive stat because it doesnt fit the poor Wade agenda.

[DJ Leon Smith]

How good was Kobe's D in the 2008 NBA Finals when he shut down Ray Allen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPC8ojduiA

BTW you can reply now with your "BUT HE MAINLY GUARDED RONDO!" argument. Which is true. Because of course you want your all-defensive first teamer guarding an inexperienced PG who can't shoot rather than the veteran SG lighting up your team.

Kobe's D is overrated. Laker fans know this. Even Kobe fans know this. Stanleys on the other hand, no.

[christian1923]

How good was Kobe's D in the 2008 NBA Finals when he shut down Ray Allen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPC8ojduiA

BTW you can reply now with your "BUT HE MAINLY GUARDED RONDO!" argument. Which is true. Because of course you want your all-defensive first teamer guarding an inexperienced PG who can't shoot rather than the veteran SG lighting up your team.

Kobe's D is overrated. Laker fans know this. Even Kobe fans know this. Stanleys on the other hand, no.

Why would you make your best offensive player tire himself out by chaseing around ray allen?

[D-Wade316]

Who cares. His All-defensive 1st teams from 04-11 were completely undeserving.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Because he's meant to be the best defensive player at his position - going by these all-defensive team selections - and you'd think that would give the team the best chance to win rather than "guarding" a young point guard who can't shoot.

Especially in the NBA Finals, where there is no tomorrow and you're meant to leave everything on the floor*.

* LeBron excluded of course.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How good was Kobe's D in the 2008 NBA Finals when he shut down Ray Allen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPC8ojduiA

BTW you can reply now with your "BUT HE MAINLY GUARDED RONDO!" argument. Which is true. Because of course you want your all-defensive first teamer guarding an inexperienced PG who can't shoot rather than the veteran SG lighting up your team.

Kobe's D is overrated. Laker fans know this. Even Kobe fans know this. Stanleys on the other hand, no.

Kobe's defense against a player who he was not assigned to guard in the 2008 NBA finals is completely irrelevant to the regular season accomplishment known as the all defensive team award.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Kobe's defense against a player who he was not assigned to guard in the 2008 NBA finals is completely irrelevant to the regular season accomplishment known as the all defensive team award.

That sounds dangerously close to the excuses LeBron fans used after the most recent NBA Finals. Tread carefully my friend.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That sounds dangerously close to the excuses LeBron fans used after the most recent NBA Finals. Tread carefully my friend.

:wtf:

What relevance is how he played in the finals three years ago to a regular season defense award?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:wtf:


http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/umdatz/def20apm0311.jpg

It's not but don't tell me this is all coincidence.

My earlier statement still stands.

This list still cracks me up. Kobe didn't win any all defensive team awards over all of those centers and forwards. Why is he being compared to them?

[Odinn]

Duncan deserved All-Defensive 2nd Team in 2010-11 season.
And Kobe did not deserve All-Defensive 1st and All-NBA 1st teams in 2010-11 season.

All-Defensive teams much more subjective than All-NBA teams. The last season which Kobe paid some attention to defense was 2007-08 season and later then he kept getting All-D 1st team honors.

[BEAST Griffin]

Kobe Bryant's defense has been average for a while now. And last season it was complete garbage and part of the reason the Mavericks lit them up.

[Cali Syndicate]

Iguoldala is primarly a small forward, Tony Allen is a 20 min per game player :confusedshrug:

Wade is a far better defender based on what? You? Why does your opinion trump that of 30+ coaches? Let me guess you are a big believer in some obscure defensive stats that nobody in the real NBA actually cares about yet simultaneously ignore opposing PER as a defensive stat because it doesnt fit the poor Wade agenda.

What does it matter if Igouldala plays SF? I mean they don't give each selection based on position. How does Lebron and Gerald Wallace, both SF's make the first team in 09? Or how does only one guard, Kobe, make first team in 08?

The fact that Allen did only play 20mpg is a good reason but if that's the case, might as well not given him any selection period. However Igouldala was just as strong a defender last season and had the minutes so....:confusedshrug:

It's also funny Allen came in fourth for DPOY votes despite his minutes played. But what do any of those media panel guys know right? Cause none of them are obviously coaches. Or why would anyone listen to an analyst over someone like Barkley right? I mean Barkley at least played the game therefore must know more than those who never played right? Or hey what's the point of even starting threads on these boards? I mean what do we know? I mean if watching the game as an avid fan holds no weight, what's the point right?

And I didn't say Wade was a far better defender. I said it doesn't make sense that Wade doesn't even turn heads while Kobe is still getting the nod as an elite defender when it's obvious he's not.

[Cali Syndicate]

This list still cracks me up. Kobe didn't win any all defensive team awards over all of those centers and forwards. Why is he being compared to them?

All you see are centers and forwards on that list? Makes me wonder what you see when you're actually watching games.

[Fiasco]

Y'know what's crazy about All-NBA teams and all that now? They can dictate how much a player's next contract is. The media can literally make a guys millions of extra dollars.

That's only true to an extent. The actual provision says a player needs to have 6 or less years of experience in order to be eligible for the 30% max contract.

Basically, you'd need to be pretty young.. and besides, how many players under 25 have won at least 1 MVP, been voting into the All-Star game as a starter at least twice, or made an All-NBA team 2 times in the last five years or so?

[YAWN]

Fair enough.

I feel "very strongly" that the exact opposite will happen.

Once he has retired for awhile and people can actually examine his performance more thoroughly and compare them to past ATGreats he will drop in the rankings.

He will go from 9-12 to something like 10/11-15.

I dont know many people who aren't Stans who rank Kobe higher then 9th or 10th at this point.

When people 15 years from now are looking back at Kobes ranking, they will see and base their argument off something like this...

6x NBA Champion
3x Finals MVP
1x League MVP
15x All NBA
13x All D
16x all-star

We see it today when the kids on this site discuss the players that most never saw play.. His resume is on par with other consensus top 5'ers like:

3x NBA Champion
2x Finals MVP
3x League MVP
10x All NBA
3x All D
12x All Star

or the guy with:

5x NBA Champion
3x Finals MVP
3x League MVP
10x All NBA
0x All D
12x All Star

[kumquat]

Kobe getting on more than a couple of all defensive teams is a joke. A guy like Wesley Matthews plays better defence than Kobe.

[bizil]

Kobe has more in the tank than many people think. He's only 33, which in most cases means u can be at worst backend prime. Look at Kareem, MJ, Dr. J, West, etc. Now I realize Kobe has more tread cause he came in the L from HS. But evolution dictates better conditioning, weights, etc. So I can see Kobe still accomplishing so much more if he chooses to play until 38-40 years old. MJ at 40 was a top 5 SF in the L at 40 years of age. Was he MJ of old, no. But all around, he was still awesome. And still clutch. He just would wear down quicker. And he was in teacher mode so he actually took a backseat as an executive on the floor. Getting 20 points, 4 dimes, and six boards in any season is All Star caliber. Let alone at age 40.

[ThaRegul8r]

Kareem's all defensive team selections are very impressive given that there is only one center chosen by team unlike the two for guards and forwards.

The very first All Defensive First Team ever had two centers, Russell and Thurmond.

[RRR3]

OP is becoming one of the worst posters on ISH. If he sucks kobes balls any harder his lips will turn blue. Kobe hasn't been a good defender in years. :facepalm

[Vienceslav]

He will probably get these records ,but players like James and Durant will take them from him.
Records are there to be broken,plain and simple.

[knightfall88]

Wade has a legitimate claim to Kobe's awards but the people who vote on this simply won't consider Wade over Kobe when Wade is a sidekick.

[D-Wade316]

OP is becoming one of the worst posters on ISH. If he sucks kobes balls any harder his lips will turn blue. Kobe hasn't been a good defender in years. :facepalm
He already is. The guy even said that if MJ said Kobe is the GOAT, then he'd take it literally.:facepalm

[Sakkreth]

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11
2. Garnett 11
2. B Jones 11


WTF is this... :roll:
:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Duncan deserved All-Defensive 2nd Team in 2010-11 season.
And Kobe did not deserve All-Defensive 1st and All-NBA 1st teams in 2010-11 season.

All-Defensive teams much more subjective than All-NBA teams. The last season which Kobe paid some attention to defense was 2007-08 season and later then he kept getting All-D 1st team honors.

Why did Duncan deserve it over Bogut?

[Qdouble]

Olajuwon was never considered a top 10 player back when he was playing and at the end of his career

During his career, very underrated. After the championships, he was put right around 5-10, and at the time, I think it was justified, because Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe were just establishing their careers. Now, I think Hakeem has been a bit overrated thanks to YouTube, but since I'm a fan of all the centers, I'm cool with it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What does it matter if Igouldala plays SF? I mean they don't give each selection based on position. How does Lebron and Gerald Wallace, both SF's make the first team in 09? Or how does only one guard, Kobe, make first team in 08?

The fact that Allen did only play 20mpg is a good reason but if that's the case, might as well not given him any selection period. However Igouldala was just as strong a defender last season and had the minutes so....:confusedshrug:

It's also funny Allen came in fourth for DPOY votes despite his minutes played. But what do any of those media panel guys know right? Cause none of them are obviously coaches. Or why would anyone listen to an analyst over someone like Barkley right? I mean Barkley at least played the game therefore must know more than those who never played right? Or hey what's the point of even starting threads on these boards? I mean what do we know? I mean if watching the game as an avid fan holds no weight, what's the point right?

And I didn't say Wade was a far better defender. I said it doesn't make sense that Wade doesn't even turn heads while Kobe is still getting the nod as an elite defender when it's obvious he's not.

Individual voters generally vote for 2 guards, 2 forwards and a center. From there the top vote 5 vote receivers make the team. Otherwise the entire team would be made up of big men every year. Kobe vs AI isn't a decision being made by the voters.

You are right it doesnt make sense. If voters are simply mesmerized by Kobe's star power and vote for him because of it then we should see the same thing happening for Wade. Maybe its time to come up with a new theory?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All you see are centers and forwards on that list? Makes me wonder what you see when you're actually watching games.

Let's start with the very first section and count the reason why its moronic to cite it to mean Kobe did not deserve the all defensive team awards

03-09

Rondo 1.8
Hinrich 1.7
Wade 1.0
Kidd 0.5
Kobe -0.6

- Only 4 guys listed are actually compared to Kobe head to head
- Rondo didn't start until 06, he played under 30 mins a game 06-08 and made the all defensive team in 09
-Kirk Hinrich is the type of non superstar player that has always been ignored in the defensive team voting since its inception. You basically need to be a defensive stopper on a championship team or a superstar to get recognition.
- Wade started less than 57 games for 3 seasons through 03-09 and made the all defensive team twice.
-Kobe didn't make the all defensive team in 05 and the Lakers had statistically the worst defense in the league that year. It's entirely possible that his entire negative stat could be attributed to 05 when he was not even selected.
- Kidd made the all defensive team 5 times in that span and missed a good chunk of games for a couple of seasons.
- Most importantly the difference between all of them is not even significant in the first place which is why the OP erroneously included a bunch of big men and forwards in the table.

[Rojogaqu11]

So much nonsense about Kobe's defensive ability.
Kobe may or may not be the same elite defender to the fans. But this isn't really the issue because the question should be, what constitute a great defender at the guard position according to the coaches? and do they find that in Kobe Bryant more than in others?

We as fans may be too obsessed in this or that statistic, that may or may not be valid or consistent, or we focus on the selected highlights, the hype from sports channels, the players personal character, etc. when sometimes we don't even watch every team or every player and every game of each of them to make a proper comparison.

I think that the truth lies in the middle, and while many believe that Kobe is not the defender he once was, maybe the coaches see things that we don't from our perspective.

[The Iron Fist]

So, coaches, who actually get paid to run the game, vote who gets to be on the defensive team,

and these ish stat geeks disagree?

lol

[AlphaWolf24]

So, coaches, who actually get paid to run the game, vote who gets to be on the defensive team,

and these ish stat geeks disagree?

lol


Magic , Shaq and Logo - "Kobe is the Greatest Laker of alltime"


Ish trolls - "Kobe barely top 10 alltime"


TROLOLOLOLOL:roll:

[DJ Leon Smith]

So, coaches, who actually get paid to run the game, vote who gets to be on the defensive team,

and these ish stat geeks disagree?

lol

Yes, we should all agree with coaches 100 percent.

So we agree with Phil Jackson putting Kobe on Rondo instead of Ray Allen in the NBA Finals - a series that the Lakers eventually lost. Because it makes perfect sense to put the NBA's best SG defender - based on all-defensive teams - on a PG who can't shoot instead of a SG who helped lead the Lakers' opposition to a NBA title, including several key plays in a 24-point first half comeback on the road.

Thank you for backing me up, much appreciated. Glad to see you're a Laker fan and not a Kobe fan. There needs to be more posters like you on ISH.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Magic , Shaq and Logo - "Kobe is the Greatest Laker of alltime"

Shaq - "Rondo is better than Chris Paul".

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000749605/polls_ellis_2425_559939_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

[AlphaWolf24]

Yes, we should all agree with coaches 100 percent.

So we agree with Phil Jackson putting Kobe on Rondo instead of Ray Allen in the NBA Finals - a series that the Lakers eventually lost. Because it makes perfect sense to put the NBA's best SG defender - based on all-defensive teams - on a PG who can't shoot instead of a SG who helped lead the Lakers' opposition to a NBA title, including several key plays in a 24-point first half comeback on the road.

Thank you for backing me up, much appreciated. Glad to see you're a Laker fan and not a Kobe fan. There needs to be more posters like you on ISH.


what about the other 13 NBA Finals??

[Vertical-24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps&feature=related

^^ Wish we seen some more of this Kobe. Probably will never see him focus on defense like that anymore. Perfect stance, entertaining lockdowns and great steals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yes, we should all agree with coaches 100 percent.

So we agree with Phil Jackson putting Kobe on Rondo instead of Ray Allen in the NBA Finals - a series that the Lakers eventually lost. Because it makes perfect sense to put the NBA's best SG defender - based on all-defensive teams - on a PG who can't shoot instead of a SG who helped lead the Lakers' opposition to a NBA title, including several key plays in a 24-point first half comeback on the road.

Thank you for backing me up, much appreciated. Glad to see you're a Laker fan and not a Kobe fan. There needs to be more posters like you on ISH.

Jesus christ I tried to ignore your idiocy since its irrelevant even if it is true but are you aware that there are two sides of a game and you can't have your primary scoring option chasing a dude around over screens all game and expect him to be able to have the necessary sustained energy to score against one of the greatest defenses of all time? You don't understand the strategy behind having a non vital part of the offense doing that instead?

[The Iron Fist]

Yes, we should all agree with coaches 100 percent.

So we agree with Phil Jackson putting Kobe on Rondo instead of Ray Allen in the NBA Finals - a series that the Lakers eventually lost. Because it makes perfect sense to put the NBA's best SG defender - based on all-defensive teams - on a PG who can't shoot instead of a SG who helped lead the Lakers' opposition to a NBA title, including several key plays in a 24-point first half comeback on the road.

Thank you for backing me up, much appreciated. Glad to see you're a Laker fan and not a Kobe fan. There needs to be more posters like you on ISH.


lol, the Lakers didn't lose because they put Kobe on Rondo, they lost because of the discrepancy in talent. Vlad Rad as a starter? Bynum and Ariza both limited because of injuries. Leon Powe getting more freethrows than the entire team.

At least act like you watched the series.

[Odinn]

Why did Duncan deserve it over Bogut?
Defensively; Duncan did better than Chandler and Noah in 2010-11 regular season and was as good as KG.

Wade played clearly more and better D than Kobe in 2010-11 seasons and yet Wade didn't get All-D honor, Kobe selected to All-D 1st team.

Kobe wasn't a great defender that his number of All-D selections suggest and didn't play D after 2007-08 season.

Deal with it.:blah

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Defensively; Duncan did better than Chandler and Noah in 2010-11 regular season and was as good as KG.

Wade played clearly more and better D than Kobe in 2010-11 seasons and yet Wade didn't get All-D honor, Kobe selected to All-D 1st team.

Kobe wasn't a great defender that his number of All-D selections suggest and didn't play D after 2007-08 season.

Deal with it.:blah

Chandler, Noah and Garnett are not Bogut :wtf:

"Wade played clearly more and better D"- this is false.

[Odinn]

Chandler, Noah and Garnett are not Bogut :wtf:

"Wade played clearly more and better D"- this is false.
I think Bogut, Wade and Duncan should be awarded with All-D selections last season.

And no. Just you, Kobe-stans say that is false...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I think Bogut, Wade and Duncan should be awarded with All-D selections last season.

And no. Just you, Kobe-stans say that is false...

Me, Kobe stans, common sense and a panel of NBA coaches.

If Wade was clearly and undeniably the better defender then he would have been recognized. He isn't some lowly role player. :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Me, Kobe stans, common sense and a panel of NBA coaches.

If Wade was clearly and undeniably the better defender then he would have been recognized. He isn't some lowly role player. :confusedshrug:
Kobe was an awful defender last year. :facepalm There's a reason he often guards the worst offensive player on the floor these days. :banghead: You ARE a Kobe stan, and Kobe stans and common sense go together like Fire and oil.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe was an awful defender last year. :facepalm There's a reason he often guards the worst offensive player on the floor these days. :banghead: You ARE a Kobe stan, and Kobe stans and common sense go together like Fire and oil.

:oldlol:

Go start a fire and throw some oil on it and I hope you are engulfed with some of that common sense.

The reason is named Ron Artest who if not to defend serves no purpose in suiting up.

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

Go start a fire and throw some oil on it and I hope you are engulfed with some of that common sense.

The reason is named Ron Artest who if not to defend serves no purpose in suiting up.
Is the other reason Derek Fisher? :roll: Plus, I thought Kobe was some defensive wizard? Surely he's better than Artest who hasn't made the all-important all-defensive team since 2009. So why does Artest still take the tough matchups while Kobe is left roaming the passing lanes? :roll:

[BEAST Griffin]

Is the other reason Derek Fisher? :roll: Plus, I thought Kobe was some defensive wizard? Surely he's better than Artest who hasn't made the all-important all-defensive team since 2009. So why does Artest still take the tough matchups while Kobe is left roaming the passing lanes? :roll:

:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Is the other reason Derek Fisher? :roll: Plus, I thought Kobe was some defensive wizard? Surely he's better than Artest who hasn't made the all-important all-defensive team since 2009. So why does Artest still take the tough matchups while Kobe is left roaming the passing lanes? :roll:

It's pretty simple. Kobe is a two way player whose offensive efforts are relied upon every game. Artest is a one way player who serves no purpose other than to defend. As a forward he doesn't compete with Kobe for all defensive team votes. It's just like Chris Paul (3 times all defensive team selection) doesn't guard Kobe when they face eachother. :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

It's pretty simple. Kobe is a two way player whose offensive efforts are relied upon every game. Artest is a one way player who serves no purpose other than to defend. As a forward he doesn't compete with Kobe for all defensive team votes. It's just like Chris Paul (3 times all defensive team selection) doesn't guard Kobe when they face eachother. :confusedshrug:

You mean Chris Paul doesn't guard someone half a foot taller than him and 50 pounds heavier than him?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Shocking!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You mean Chris Paul doesn't guard someone half a foot taller than him and 50 pounds heavier than him?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Shocking!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Its a tough matchup. He's an perennial all defensive team selection apparently that means he should take it. Or is he too busy guarding Fisher? :oldlol:

Sorry I forgot these are the special rules that apply only to Kobe's all defensive team awards.

[Dave3]

Its a tough matchup. He's an perennial all defensive team selection apparently that means he should take it. Or is he too busy guarding Fisher? :oldlol:

Sorry I forgot these are the special rules that apply only to Kobe's all defensive team awards.
Isn't there some common sense that says something like, it's possible/easier for a 6'6 guy to guard a 6'4 guy than it is for a 6'0 guy to guard a 6'6 guy? Just curious that's all.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Isn't there some common sense that says something like, it's possible/easier for a 6'6 guy to guard a 6'4 guy than it is for a 6'0 guy to guard a 6'6 guy? Just curious that's all.

Only if you are looking at height. Quickness plays a role as well. :confusedshrug:

According to NBA.com Lebron James has 45 pounds and 2 inches on Kobe Bryant while Kobe Bryant has 6 inches and 30 pounds on Chris Paul.

[32Dayz]

Point is Kobe has not deserved a single All-D 1st Team selection from 04-11.

Maybe in 99,00 and 01/02 he gets them.

So 3-5 Teams at most.

[The Iron Fist]

Point is Kobe has not deserved a single All-D 1st Team selection from 04-11.

Maybe in 99,00 and 01/02 he gets them.

So 3-5 Teams at most.
Yet, men that actually coach in the league,

think so.

[32Dayz]

Yet, men that actually coach in the league,

think so.

Well they are wrong, his defense has been mediocre to plain awful from 08-11 and from 04-05 he was out of shape and injured and in 06, 07 he only played offense.

I remember LA management publicly dissing Kobe's defense late in the 06 Regular Season.

[Dave3]

Only if you are looking at height. Quickness plays a role as well. :confusedshrug:
Shouldn't a 1st team all defender shooting guard have the quickness to guard a point guard?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Shouldn't a 1st team all defender shooting guard have the quickness to guard a point guard?

Shouldn't a 1st team defense all defender point guard have the size to guard a shooting guard?

[BallsOut]

Shouldn't a 1st team all defender shooting guard have the quickness to guard a point guard?

Off the top of my head, I recall when Kobe locked up Westbrook in the playoffs a few seasons ago.

[Dave3]

Only if you are looking at height. Quickness plays a role as well. :confusedshrug:

According to NBA.com Lebron James has 45 pounds and 2 inches on Kobe Bryant while Kobe Bryant has 6 inches and 30 pounds on Chris Paul.
And Kobe hasn't guarded LeBron since LeBron was a sophomore, and even that was for a few rare possessions. And how does that relate to anything. The initial argument was about guarding a smaller player, not bigger. No one expects Paul to guard Kobe like you wouldn't expect Kobe to guard LeBron. Though the weight difference between LeBron and Kobe should not be a big deal considering all of you Kobe fans seem convinced LeBron has no post game to use his size with...

Now all of a sudden there's an important weight difference? Pick a side.

[Dave3]

Shouldn't a 1st team defense all defender point guard have the size to guard a shooting guard?
Um, no lol. Guarding a smaller position is easier than guarding a bigger position...

That's why you see bigger players like Artest or LeBron guard smaller guys sometimes like Brandon Roy or Derrick Rose, whereas you never see the latter guard the former. What kind of questions are these?

[The Iron Fist]

Well they are wrong, his defense has been mediocre to plain awful from 08-11 and from 04-05 he was out of shape and injured and in 06, 07 he only played offense.

I remember LA management publicly dissing Kobe's defense late in the 06 Regular Season.


NBA Coaches - professionals

32lonelydayz - armchair towel boy


Who should we really believe?

[32Dayz]

The Iron Fist : Kobe's personal Ball Sucker.

:lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And Kobe hasn't guarded LeBron since LeBron was a sophomore, and even that was for a few rare possessions. And how does that relate to anything. The initial argument was about guarding a smaller player, not bigger. No one expects Paul to guard Kobe like you wouldn't expect Kobe to guard LeBron. Though the weight difference between LeBron and Kobe should not be a big deal considering all of you Kobe fans seem convinced LeBron has no post game to use his size with...

Now all of a sudden there's an important weight difference? Pick a side.

Actually the criticism was Kobe doesn't always take the toughest matchup, nothing about size.

[Dave3]

Off the top of my head, I recall when Kobe locked up Westbrook in the playoffs a few seasons ago.
The 16 ppg on 42% Westbrook...who looked a lot better than he was because Fisher was the one guarding him. Not to mention that Kobe hardly "locked him up." He did do a better job than Fisher for sure, but it's not like he was guarding him consistently. He guarded him for 2 of the 6 games, and for a minority of them.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Um, no lol. Guarding a smaller position is easier than guarding a bigger position...

That's why you see bigger players like Artest or LeBron guard smaller guys sometimes like Brandon Roy or Derrick Rose, whereas you never see the latter guard the former. What kind of questions are these?

Gary Payton didn't guard Michael Jordan?

Maybe you should tell him...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efMs8e20c7s

[Dave3]

Actually the criticism was Kobe doesn't always take the toughest matchup, nothing about size.
He doesn't always take the toughest match up within reason

The bold probably wasn't typed because it was implied, but I guess I'll make it explicit. Guarding a 6'4 Rondo is within reason for Kobe to guard, since he's a first team all defender shooting guard, who should have the quickness to guard point guards. Guarding a 6'8 LeBron should also technically be within reason since LeBron doesn't use his size nor does he go in the post according to you Kobe fans, but we'll say for the sake of this argument it's not in this case.

See the difference?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He doesn't always take the toughest match up within reason

The bold probably wasn't typed because it was implied, but I guess I'll make it explicit. Guarding a 6'4 Rondo is within reason for Kobe to guard, since he's a first team all defender shooting guard, who should have the quickness to guard point guards. Guarding a 6'8 LeBron should also technically be within reason since LeBron doesn't use his size nor does he go in the post according to you Kobe fans, but we'll say for the sake of this argument it's not in this case.

See the difference?

Its not really within reason given the context of the Lakers lineup. What purpose does Artest serve if not to guard LeBron? Why is he out there?

and Kobe did guard Rondo in the 2010 NBA Finals :confusedshrug:

[Dave3]

Gary Payton didn't guard Michael Jordan?

Maybe you should tell him...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efMs8e20c7s
Obviously there are very few exceptions. Dumars also guarded Jordan even though he was smaller. Both those guys would be All NBA first team defense over Chris Paul if they played right now.

Gary Payton was also a much better defensive player and much closer to Jordan's size (6'4 and a very strong 180), with a 2 inch and 15 pound disadvantage against Jordan. Hardly comparable to a 6 inch 30 pound difference no? 2 inches and 15 pounds is the kind of variation you'd see among players of the same position. Hell, it's probably the same average disadvantage most small forwards have against LeBron.

[BallsOut]

The 16 ppg on 42% Westbrook...who looked a lot better than he was because Fisher was the one guarding him. Not to mention that Kobe hardly "locked him up." He did do a better job than Fisher for sure, but it's not like he was guarding him consistently. He guarded him for 2 of the 6 games, and for a minority of them.

Same thing could be said about Lebron with Rose in the 2011 ECF.

[BlackJoker23]

All-NBA Team Selections by Player

1. Kareem 15
2. Malone 14
3. Shaq 14
4. Kobe 13
4. Duncan 13

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11
2. Garnett 11
2. B Jones 11

All Star Selections

1. Kareem 19
2. Shaq 15
3. Garnett 14
3. West 14
3. Jordan 14
3. Malone 14
7. Kobe 13
7. Wilt 13
7. Cousy 13
7. Duncan 13
7. Havlicek 13
7. M Malone 13
:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[Dave3]

Same thing could be said about Lebron with Rose in the 2011 ECF.
No. For one, Westbrook was 16 ppg on 42% during the season. Not close to a 25 ppg 45% MVP...

Secondly, Rose was a quicker player than Westbrook.

Thirdly, LeBron is a 260 small forward, with a much bigger gap in weight, and so it should be harder for him to stay in front of a quicker point guard than it is for a 205 shooting guard.

Lastly, LeBron guarded Rose for more of the games, and held him to a lower percentage. I'm sure you've heard multiple times about how Rose's FG% was 9.8% against LeBron in the 4th.

His overall stats for the series on 23 ppg (-2) 35% (-10) in the series, whereas Westbrook was 21 (+5) on 47% (+5).

It's a similar situation, but there are pretty big distinctions.

[Dave3]

Its not really within reason given the context of the Lakers lineup. What purpose does Artest serve if not to guard LeBron? Why is he out there?

and Kobe did guard Rondo in the 2010 NBA Finals :confusedshrug:
I already said in this argument we'll say he shouldn't guard LeBron, though by your logic he should be able to.

And I know Kobe guarded Rondo for a few possessions in the finals. You were the one comparing the situation to Chris Paul guarding Kobe, which is ludicrous.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why was LeBron guarding Rose? I thought this entire conversation started because poor Dwayne Wade deserved the nod defensively over Kobe because Kobe doesn't take the toughest assignment all of the time. Why wasn't Wade taking that assignment? How can Wade and Lebron both be all defensive team worthy if its impossible for them to take the toughest assignment every game? How did Pippen and Jordan fool everyone into forgetting about this requirement and stack defensive team awards anyway?

[Dave3]

Why was LeBron guarding Rose? I thought this entire conversation started because poor Dwayne Wade deserved the nod defensively over Kobe because Kobe doesn't take the toughest assignment all of the time. Why wasn't Wade taking that assignment? How can Wade and Lebron both be all defensive team worthy if its impossible for them to take the toughest assignment every game? How did Pippen and Jordan fool everyone into forgetting about this requirement and stack defensive team awards anyway?
Because LeBron is a better defender, which is why he's first team all defense. Artest hasn't been All NBA Defense since coming to the Lakers while Kobe has, despite Artest taking all of the tougher match ups. The argument isn't that Kobe doesn't take every single tough match up. It's that he takes so few of them. Kobe's hidden defensively more than Wade is, that's what the argument was. Do you disagree with that?

Remember December 2009 when Kobe hit that gamewinner off the backboard? The entire second half, Wade was on Kobe, while Kobe wasn't on Wade except for a few possessions. That's what people are talking about.

[32Dayz]

I dont care as much about matchups as much as I care about ability and effort/consistency.

Thats why I think Wade > Kobe as a defender basically since his rookie year till now.

Wade imo has had more defensive ability since basically his rookie year and is more consistent and puts in more effort on that end.

Kobe in his young years was a slightly better M2M defender then Wade due to his size but Wade is 1000x better as a help/weakside defender.

Since 04 on its clear Wade/Lebron have been better defensively.

[RRR3]

Since Kobe fans think that people in the "inner cirlce of the NBA" (coaches, gms, trainers, ex-players, etc., etc.) know everything and are never wrong (at least when it suits their agendas), I think the following excerpt from a certain coach's book should be considered...

"Kobe's defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league's all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn't played sound, fundamental defense. Mesmerized by the ball, he's gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn't keep his feet on the ground."

Guess who wrote this? PHIL JACKSON, Kobe's coach for the majority of his career. Guess when he wrote it? After the 2004 season. Phil Jackson, Kobe's coach, was saying Kobe no longer deserved these awards back in ****ing 2004!! :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because LeBron is a better defender, which is why he's first team all defense. Artest hasn't been All NBA Defense since coming to the Lakers while Kobe has, despite Artest taking all of the tougher match ups. The argument isn't that Kobe doesn't take every single tough match up. It's that he takes so few of them. Kobe's hidden defensively more than Wade is, that's what the argument was. Do you disagree with that?

Remember December 2009 when Kobe hit that gamewinner off the backboard? The entire second half, Wade was on Kobe, while Kobe wasn't on Wade except for a few possessions. That's what people are talking about.

I don't think either are "hidden". Its a misnomer. They are both relied upon offensively for their clubs and not utilizing a teammate who sole value in the NBA is defensive would be insane. I don't remember the details of that game but the way you describe doesn't make Wade some superhero for taking the tough assignment for only half the game. So who was the better defender between Pippen and Jordan and which one of them actually deserved their awards for taking the tough assignments?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Since Kobe fans think that people in the "inner cirlce of the NBA" (coaches, gms, trainers, ex-players, etc., etc.) know everything and are never wrong (at least when it suits their agendas), I think the following excerpt from a certain coach's book should be considered...

"Kobe's defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league's all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn't played sound, fundamental defense. Mesmerized by the ball, he's gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn't keep his feet on the ground."

Guess who wrote this? PHIL JACKSON, Kobe's coach for the majority of his career. Guess when he wrote it? After the 2004 season. Phil Jackson, Kobe's coach, was saying Kobe no longer deserved these awards back in ****ing 2004!! :facepalm

Good thing Wade doesn't do any of that :lol

[32Dayz]

Good thing Wade doesn't do any of that

Agreed. :cheers:

Wade rarely helps off his man in a way that is detrimental to the team or gives his own man an opportunity to score.

He normally plays solid lock down m2m defense especially in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

Good thing Wade doesn't do any of that :lol
Yep, keep avoiding the truth.

[BallsOut]

I dont care as much about matchups as much as I care about ability and effort/consistency.

Thats why I think Wade > Kobe as a defender basically since his rookie year till now.

Wade imo has had more defensive ability since basically his rookie year and is more consistent and puts in more effort on that end.

Kobe in his young years was a slightly better M2M defender then Wade due to his size but Wade is 1000x better as a help/weakside defender.

Since 04 on its clear Wade/Lebron have been better defensively.

That's laughable. Lebron's name didn't get into defensive conversations until 2008 when Mike Brown was coaching the Cavs. Quit trying to rewrite history.

[32Dayz]

That's laughable. Lebron's name didn't get into defensive conversations until 2008 when Mike Brown was coaching the Cavs. Quit trying to rewrite history.

Why?

Because you say he hasn't been a good defender?

He has improved defensively obviously as his career has progressed but I still stand by my point that he was the better defender in comparison to your boy over the majority of his career.

It appears that defensive ability comes down to hearsay nowadays. :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why?

Because you say he hasn't been a good defender?

He has improved defensively obviously as his career has progressed but I still stand by my point that he was the better defender in comparison to your boy over the majority of his career.

It appears that defensive ability comes down to hearsay nowadays. :facepalm

How about because he says he hasn't been a good defender?

"Everybody says they want to play defense. They say they want to make a defensive stand,'' James told me Wednesday. "But are you really going to go out there and take pride in your defense and guard your man one-on-one? It took me a few years to realize I wanted to be a really good defensive player, and I've kind of turned that corner to where I am today. ''

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/steve_aschburner/12/18/lebron.defense/index.html?eref=T1#ixzz1fcJ2tLIV

[32Dayz]

How about because he says he hasn't been a good defender?

"Everybody says they want to play defense. They say they want to make a defensive stand,'' James told me Wednesday. "But are you really going to go out there and take pride in your defense and guard your man one-on-one? It took me a few years to realize I wanted to be a really good defensive player, and I've kind of turned that corner to where I am today. ''

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/steve_aschburner/12/18/lebron.defense/index.html?eref=T1#ixzz1fcJ2tLIV

Thats pretty vague and doesn't really imply that he was a poor defender.

If anything he is saying he went from a good defensive player to a "really good" defensive player.

I certainly dont believe he was trying to imply he was a poor or even average defensive player with that comment.

[Nevaeh]

Thats pretty vague and doesn't really imply that he was a poor defender.

If anything he is saying he went from a good defensive player to a "really good" defensive player.

I certainly dont believe he was trying to imply he was a poor or even average defensive player with that comment.

Come on now 32Dayz. You already know that nobody on ISH plays the "Semantics" game like Yao Ming's Foot does. That dude can turn the brownness of the corners of toasted bread into an argument. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Come on now 32Dayz. You already know that nobody on ISH plays the "Semantics" game like Yao Ming's Foot does. That dude can turn the brownness of the corners of toasted bread into an argument. :oldlol:
Henceforth and forthwith, the lad formerly entitled "Yao Ming's foot" shall be rechristened "Kobe Bryant's Balls". So let it be written, so let it be done.

[Dave3]

I don't think either are "hidden". Its a misnomer. They are both relied upon offensively for their clubs and not utilizing a teammate who sole value in the NBA is defensive would be insane. I don't remember the details of that game but the way you describe doesn't make Wade some superhero for taking the tough assignment for only half the game. So who was the better defender between Pippen and Jordan and which one of them actually deserved their awards for taking the tough assignments?
I said hidden more. Not as in actually hidden, but in relation to Wade, Kobe is used less defensively. No one says don't utilize other defenders on the team, but like it's been argued again and again, Wade defends better offensive options more often. I never said he was a hero, but he definitely took more defensive pressure than Kobe in that game, which is the only point I need to make, since those are the two players being compared.

You're asking who is the better defender between Pippen and Jordan? Even Jordan fans would admit that it's Pippen...don't see how that helps your argument.

[Dave3]

I dont care as much about matchups as much as I care about ability and effort/consistency.

Thats why I think Wade > Kobe as a defender basically since his rookie year till now.

Wade imo has had more defensive ability since basically his rookie year and is more consistent and puts in more effort on that end.

Kobe in his young years was a slightly better M2M defender then Wade due to his size but Wade is 1000x better as a help/weakside defender.

Since 04 on its clear Wade/Lebron have been better defensively.
2004?? :wtf: :wtf:

Why are you and Yao's Foot on such opposite sides of the spectrum? He's arguing Kobe being more defensively valuable than Wade, and you're saying LeBron was better in '04? Why can none of you ever find a middle ground?

[32Dayz]

I am saying Kobe as a defender was inferior to Wade or Lebron from 04-11.

Kobe was 97-03 was his Defensive Prime (1st Team) years.

In 04 he was out of shape and in 05 he was injured.
In 06 and 07 he only cared about the 0ffensive end of the floor.
From 08-11 he was too slow to play lock down defense and didn't have the energy anymore to be a two way type player.

[Dave3]

I am saying Kobe as a defender was inferior to Wade or Lebron from 04-11.

Kobe was 97-03 was his Defensive Prime (1st Team) years.

In 04 he was out of shape and in 05 he was injured.
In 06 and 07 he only cared about the 0ffensive end of the floor.
From 08-11 he was too slow to play lock down defense and didn't have the energy anymore to be a two way type player.
I know what you're saying...it's wrong, that's the point. LeBron most certainly wasn't a better defender in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008. He did do some things well defensively, but Kobe was still better. You're seriously arguing rookie LeBron over '04 Kobe:facepalm

I don't know what to say to that...

[32Dayz]

I know what you're saying...it's wrong, that's the point. LeBron most certainly wasn't a better defender in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008. He did do some things well defensively, but Kobe was still better. You're seriously arguing rookie LeBron over '04 Kobe:facepalm

I don't know what to say to that...

I watched both of them and Lebron appeared to be the better defender to me.

Every Defensive statistic has Lebron over Kobe from his Rookie Season until 2011.

Why exactly is it wrong?

Kobe is just an extremely overrated defender, can you please offer me some solid evidence that Kobe was a better defender then Wade or Lebron those years other then just you or some random people saying he was?

I can say anything I want but without some factual examples it doesnt hold much weight.

I can say I watched both of them in some games over that time span and Lebron appeared to play better defense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I said hidden more. Not as in actually hidden, but in relation to Wade, Kobe is used less defensively. No one says don't utilize other defenders on the team, but like it's been argued again and again, Wade defends better offensive options more often. I never said he was a hero, but he definitely took more defensive pressure than Kobe in that game, which is the only point I need to make, since those are the two players being compared.

You're asking who is the better defender between Pippen and Jordan? Even Jordan fans would admit that it's Pippen...don't see how that helps your argument.

Pippen was the better defender. Pippen continuously took the tougher assignments. Yet Jordan won 9 all defensive team awards and nobody cared. Seems like all defensive team awards in the 21st century have been given out in a consistent manner as all defensive team awards in the 90s. :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Pippen was the better defender. Pippen continuously took the tougher assignments. Yet Jordan won 9 all defensive team awards and nobody cared. Seems like all defensive team awards in the 21st century have been given out in a consistent manner as all defensive team awards in the 90s. :confusedshrug:
Are you just playing dumb or are you actually this dense? :facepalm Jordan wasn't getting those awards "over" Pippen, they played different ****ING positions for Christs's sake. :banghead: I've also never heard any complaints about Jordan receiving his selections, by all accounts he is one of the best defender evers at his position.

[Dave3]

Pippen was the better defender. Pippen continuously took the tougher assignments. Yet Jordan won 9 all defensive team awards and nobody cared. Seems like all defensive team awards in the 21st century have been given out in a consistent manner as all defensive team awards in the 90s. :confusedshrug:
Because Jordan won those 9 while still playing defense at a higher level than Kobe has for his 10. Even when Pippen was there, MJ played elite defense, whereas Kobe hasn't as much. There's nowhere in my argument where I said having another elite defender disqualifies you from All NBA Defense.

Jordan just tried harder for longer periods of a game on the defensive end. That was the difference I'm pretty sure.

[Dave3]

I watched both of them and Lebron appeared to be the better defender to me.

Every Defensive statistic has Lebron over Kobe from his Rookie Season until 2011.

Why exactly is it wrong?

Kobe is just an extremely overrated defender, can you please offer me some solid evidence that Kobe was a better defender then Wade or Lebron those years other then just you or some random people saying he was?

I can say anything I want but without some factual examples it doesnt hold much weight.

I can say I watched both of them in some games over that time span and Lebron appeared to play better defense.
There's no such thing as evidence for defense other than watching. LeBron averaged more steals in 2006 than any other year, but still wasn't the defender he is now. He had a higher defensive rating in 2007 than he did in 2010 or 2011, but also wasn't as good a defender then. He also had both a block and steal % higher in 2008, despite being a better defender today.

How can you think stats show defense in any way shape or form? And that's great that you watched them, but so did I, and even as a non fan of Kobe, I can tell you his defense was better than LeBron's.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you just playing dumb or are you actually this dense? :facepalm Jordan wasn't getting those awards "over" Pippen, they played different ****ING positions for Christs's sake. :banghead: I've also never heard any complaints about Jordan receiving his selections, by all accounts he is one of the best defender evers at his position.

Kobe doesn't get his awards over Artest either. :confusedshrug:


Young Jordan was an exceptional ball defender and he was the very best player of his era at roaming the passing lanes.

There, it's out. He was a very good defender. I don't have any problems with his 1988 defensive player of the year award and his 6 first-team all defense awards up that point.

However, after that, he was a very overrated defender. He got old and lost a step and it showed. It happens to everybody, but Jordan's fans couldn't accept it. Let me give examples.

In 1995 and 96, Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway continued giving Jordan problems when they posted up on him. That is undertandable as they were bigger than Jordan. However, Jordan's lost a step on his quickness and in 1996, Pooh Richardson lit up Jordan...Pooh Richardson. Damon Stoudamire had his way with Jordan that year (Stoudamire's rookie season). While Stoudamire was very quick, Phil Jackson's answer to him spoke volumes about Jordan: Phil put Scottie Pippen on Stoudamire. Jordan was so slow that a 6'7" 225 lb FORWARD was Jackson's answer to a guard. Phil began opting to put Ron Harper on the other team's better offensive guard. Jordan fanatics claim this was "resting" Jordan for offense. No, this is called "rationalizing." Young Jordan guarded the other team's best guard AND lit up his opponents for 32+ PPG. Old Jordan simply could not guard the best guards any more (remember when he got caught in the switch with Allen Iverson the next year and how bad Iverson made him look?) .

What was truly sad was that Jordan continued making first team all-defense, but Ron Harper did not. Jordan wasn't even the best defensive guard on his own team any more. He didn't deserve those accolades.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm

[The Iron Fist]

Yep, keep avoiding the truth.
NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11


Yea, keep avoiding it.

[32Dayz]

NBA All-Defensive Selections are Meaningless and Worthless.

Yea, keep avoiding it.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[The Iron Fist]

:applause: :applause: :applause:
and yet, you're here for almost 10 pages crying about how he doesn't deserve what NBA coaches know he does.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11


Shaq, lol


The truth, keep avoiding it.

[RRR3]

Kobe doesn't get his awards over Artest either. :confusedshrug:



http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm
No he won them over Wade. :facepalm Stop pretending like you have an ounce of objectivity in you; just ****ing admit you are in love with Kobe and want to suck his dick, Jesus Christ. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[The Iron Fist]

No he won them over Wade. :facepalm Stop pretending like you have an ounce of objectivity in you; just ****ing admit you are in love with Kobe and want to suck his dick, Jesus Christ. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:roll: :roll:

Its absolutely amazing watching a complete stranger who you will never meet,

get you so riled up.


With as much time as you spend on here talking about how great Kobe isn't, you're missing out on soo much poosy in the real world.

[RRR3]

:roll: :roll:

Its absolutely amazing watching a complete stranger who you will never meet,

get you so riled up.


With as much time as you spend on here talking about how great Kobe isn't, you're missing out on soo much poosy in the real world.
Kobe is great. I have never denied it. I'll worry about "poosy" on my own time, thank you very much. Now run along and get back to gargling Kobe's semen or whatever you do in your spare time.

[32Dayz]

poosy

:lol

[RRR3]

:lol
The only ***** iron fist will ever get is from a cat.

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe is great. I have never denied it. I'll worry about "poosy" on my own time, thank you very much. Now run along and get back to gargling Kobe's semen or whatever you do in your spare time.
In my spare time, I come here to laugh at you clowns trying to downplay one of the greatest players of all time.

Its comical. The fact of the matter is, you're hurt, and you even displayed as much with this, :banghead: :banghead: .


I pretty much guarantee you've never felt the silky smoothness of a womans insides.

[RRR3]

In my spare time, I come here to laugh at you clowns trying to downplay one of the greatest players of all time.

Its comical. The fact of the matter is, you're hurt, and you even displayed as much with this, :banghead: :banghead: .


I pretty much guarantee you've never felt the silky smoothness of a womans insides.
I'm pretty sure I have kissed a girl who is better looking than anyone you've ever seen (then again, I'm biased towards her lol). :cheers:

[The Iron Fist]

The only ***** iron fist will ever get is from a cat.



Getting cat>>>>> better than crying about Kobe all day and night.


NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11


http://i.imgur.com/49nvR.gif

[The Iron Fist]

I'm pretty sure I have kissed a girl who is better looking than anyone you've ever seen (then again, I'm biased towards her lol). :cheers:


Your mother doesn't count.

[RRR3]

Your mother doesn't count.
I was talking about my ex-girlfriend, you ****. :facepalm

[The Iron Fist]

I was talking about my ex-girlfriend, you ****. :facepalm
Your sister doesn't count either then.


But at least you've admitted to being a virgin. Thats cool though, you're only 15.

[RRR3]

Getting cat>>>>> better than crying about Kobe all day and night.


NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11


http://i.imgur.com/49nvR.gif
So Kobe is the third best defender ever? is that what you're saying? :roll: Get out of here. You're a stupid Kobe stan who probably shits himself whenever Kobe scores a point. I'm done talking to you, believe whatever you want.

[The Iron Fist]

So Kobe is the third best defender ever? is that what you're saying? :roll: Get out of here. You're a stupid Kobe stan who probably shits himself whenever Kobe scores a point. I'm done talking to you, believe whatever you want.
This is what I said.


NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11

Nowhere did I imply, or even allude to him being the 3rd best defender ever.

I just posted, the facts. The facts, as they are, show him having 11 all defensive selections. No amount of crying from you or your buddy 32dayz, will change that.
http://i.imgur.com/49nvR.gif

[Legends66NBA7]

This thread took a bizarre twist for very childish reasons. Oh well..

*Takes back seat; sips coke quietly*

[Heavincent]

So let it be written, so let it be done.

I'm sent here by the chosen one.

[Shadynasty's]

http://i.imgur.com/49nvR.gif

lol 4gifs.com yanked the GIF I made?! :oldlol:

[The Iron Fist]

This thread took a bizarre twist very childish reasons.
It took a twist since the 1st page, for very childish reasons.

:rant KOBE DOESN'T DESERVE THOSE AWARDS:rant
:banghead: HE GETS THEM BECAUSE OF HIS NAME:banghead:

[ballsohard247]

This thread took a bizarre twist for very childish reasons. Oh well..

*Takes back seat; sips coke quietly*
Happens often. *Eats popcorn*

[The Iron Fist]

lol 4gifs.com yanked the GIF I made?! :oldlol:
Its a classic.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This is what I said.


NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kareem 11
2. Kobe 11

Nowhere did I imply, or even allude to him being the 3rd best defender ever.

I just posted, the facts. The facts, as they are, show him having 11 all defensive selections. No amount of crying from you or your buddy 32dayz, will change that.
http://i.imgur.com/49nvR.gif

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

Happens often. *Eats popcorn*

Meh. It's a Kobe thread. Sexual insults come by usually in them.

*Grabs some popcorn from ballsohard*

[DFish]

Is RRR3 seriously getting butthurt because someone is posting All-Defensive selection stats?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Couple more...

All Defensive 1st Team Selections

1. Kobe 9
1. Garnett 9
1. Payton 9
1. Jordan 9

All 1st team All NBA selections

1. Malone 11
2. Kareem 10
2. Baylor 10
2. Pettit 10
2. Jordan 10
2. Cousy 10
2. West 10
8. Kobe 9

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So if we assume Kobe has the same accolades as last year he will be

#1 undisputed 1st all nba defensive team winner of all time
#2 defensive team award winner of all time
tied for #2 all nba 1st team award winner of all time
tied for #2 all nba team awards winner of all time
tied for #3 all star award winner of all time

Another year...

#1 undisputed 1st all nba defensive team winner of all time
tied for #1 defensive team award winner of all time
tied for #1 all nba 1st team award winner of all time
tied for #1 all nba team awards winner of all time
tied for #2 all star award winner of all time

and a 3rd year of greatness

#1 undisputed 1st all nba defensive team winner of all time
#1 undisputed defensive team award winner of all time
#1 undisputed all nba 1st team award winner of all time
#1 undisputed all nba team awards winner of all time
#2 all star award winner of all time

[RRR3]

I'm sent here by the chosen one.

I'm creeping death! :rockon:

[NumberSix]

I expect Kobe to get 1st teams for at least 3-5 years after he retires.

[Cali Syndicate]

Individual voters generally vote for 2 guards, 2 forwards and a center. From there the top vote 5 vote receivers make the team. Otherwise the entire team would be made up of big men every year. Kobe vs AI isn't a decision being made by the voters.

You are right it doesnt make sense. If voters are simply mesmerized by Kobe's star power and vote for him because of it then we should see the same thing happening for Wade. Maybe its time to come up with a new theory?

Wade has never been the lock down defender Kobe used to be, so no we wouldn't be seeing the same for Wade.

[Cali Syndicate]

Let's start with the very first section and count the reason why its moronic to cite it to mean Kobe did not deserve the all defensive team awards

03-09

Rondo 1.8
Hinrich 1.7
Wade 1.0
Kidd 0.5
Kobe -0.6

- Only 4 guys listed are actually compared to Kobe head to head
- Rondo didn't start until 06, he played under 30 mins a game 06-08 and made the all defensive team in 09
-Kirk Hinrich is the type of non superstar player that has always been ignored in the defensive team voting since its inception. You basically need to be a defensive stopper on a championship team or a superstar to get recognition.
- Wade started less than 57 games for 3 seasons through 03-09 and made the all defensive team twice.
-Kobe didn't make the all defensive team in 05 and the Lakers had statistically the worst defense in the league that year. It's entirely possible that his entire negative stat could be attributed to 05 when he was not even selected.
- Kidd made the all defensive team 5 times in that span and missed a good chunk of games for a couple of seasons.
- Most importantly the difference between all of them is not even significant in the first place which is why the OP erroneously included a bunch of big men and forwards in the table.

Kobe didn't get a defensive team selection in 05 cause he gained a shitload of weight and didn't have the lateral quickness needed to be an elite and effective defender.

And read the article. Centers and PF's are there to justify his point. And quite convenient to disregard players like Artest, Lebron, Deng, Battier, Bowen, Kirelinko, Prince etc who are all perimeter defenders just like Kobe. But where are all their all NBA defensive selections? Answer is found in the bolded text that ironically you wrote.

And if we do use the list, Kidd has been consistently ahead of Kobe yet has less than half the first team bids Kobe has. Perhaps a few of those 1st team selections belong to Kidd?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe didn't get a defensive team selection in 05 cause he gained a shitload of weight and didn't have the lateral quickness needed to be an elite and effective defender.

And read the article. Centers and PF's are there to justify his point. And quite convenient to disregard players like Artest, Lebron, Deng, Battier, Bowen, Kirelinko, Prince etc who are all perimeter defenders just like Kobe. But where are all their all NBA defensive selections? Answer is found in the bolded text that ironically you wrote.

And if we do use the list, Kidd has been consistently ahead of Kobe yet has less than half the first team bids Kobe has. Perhaps a few of those 1st team selections belong to Kidd?

Artest, Lebron, Deng, Battier, Bowen, Kirelinko, Prince

SF, SF, SF, SF, SF, SF, SF, SF

:confusedshrug:

They are forwards. Kobe is a guard. If those awards were DPOY awards then he might have a point, but considering nobody voting for Kobe is putting him ahead of forwards and centers on that list I fail to see the relevance.

Perhaps if we assume the measure is a flawless representation of defense over the course of a season and the idiot didn't just average all of them together to make the number meaningless. There isn't any context to the numbers. Maybe Kidd had a great defensive season but Kobe got the nod because he played the entire season while Kidd missed 20 games.

Nobody thinks Kobe Bryant is as impactful of a defender as Kevin Garnett but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to have as many all defensive team selections as him. They are not in competition with each other for that award.

[Cali Syndicate]

Artest, Lebron, Deng, Battier, Bowen, Kirelinko, Prince

SF, SF, SF, SF, SF, SF, SF, SF

:confusedshrug:

They are forwards. Kobe is a guard. If those awards were DPOY awards then he might have a point, but considering nobody voting for Kobe is putting him ahead of forwards and centers on that list I fail to see the relevance.

Perhaps if we assume the measure is a flawless representation of defense over the course of a season and the idiot didn't just average all of them together to make the number meaningless. There isn't any context to the numbers. Maybe Kidd had a great defensive season but Kobe got the nod because he played the entire season while Kidd missed 20 games.

Nobody thinks Kobe Bryant is as impactful of a defender as Kevin Garnett but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to have as many all defensive team selections as him. They are not in competition with each other for that award.

Obviously an interior defender is gonna have a stronger impact on defense. This was why I brought up those SF's, because they still mainly guard around the wing/perimeter and the one's listed still showed to have more impact on defense than Kobe. I wasn't saying they were competing for any award.

Since 08 the Lakers have been hovering right around as the 5th best defensive team in the league, yet Engelmann's 07-11 RAPM average still shows Kobe's RAPM to be among the lowest not only for perimeter players but also for guards. RAPM, like any stat, can be misleading but the fact that Kobe has been on a relatively good defensive team the last 3 seasons, especially one with as good an interior defense as any in the NBA kinda puts the perspective that Kobe has been getting these nods based on his reputation.

I on the other hand, use this stat to justify my claim, not as reasoning. My reasoning comes from watching the game. And from watching the game, it's clear to me Kobe isn't as strong a defender as some other guards in the league.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Actually now that I think about it. Not even Jason Kidd is in competition for Kobe. Voters submit a PG-SG-SF-PF-C lineup which is why Kobe is one of the top vote getters every year. He's competing with other shooting guards. Who are the other star shooting guards the last decade?

Vince Carter?
Brandon Roy?
Joe Johnson?
Dwayne Wade?
Manu Ginobli?
Ray Allen?
Richard Hamilton?
Tracy Mcgrady?

Among those player only Ginobli and Wade can give a half motivated Kobe Bryant a run for his money defensively

From 06-08 Wade only played in 99 games

Manu Ginobli has averaged 1981 minutes of playing time in the regular season since 02... Kobe Bryant has averaged 2969 minutes of playing time in the regular season since 02

Kobe's only real competition is Wade and shockingly the voters gave Kobe the benefit of the doubt while he was stacking 3 finals appearances, 3 MVPs and 2 rings the previous 3 seasons while Wade was first round bait.

:confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

A motivated T-Mac was definitely on Kobe's level as a defender. Stuff it already. :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

A motivated T-Mac was definitely on Kobe's level as a defender. Stuff it already. :facepalm

:oldlol:

When was he ever motivated defensively?

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

When was he ever motivated defensively?
When he felt like it which wasn't often enough. He was still quite capable of being a great defender at times.

[Doranku]

A motivated T-Mac was definitely on Kobe's level as a defender. Stuff it already. :facepalm
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Big#50]

He deserved most of his All NBA selections. The All NBA D selections were and are a joke. I don't think he should have one. Not even the years he actually tried on defense. Harper, Shaw, Fox were better defenders than him during the three peat. Let alone being the best defender at sg in the league. LoL that is an insult to the role players and players that are actually playing great D. It is an insult to smart fans. The NBA just needs to market players like Kobe for the blind fanboys and casual fans. No blame on Kobe, blame the press and coaches, that are controlled by the money making machine.

[Vienceslav]

What

[DJ Leon Smith]

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]What

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 2011 All-D teams were weird. You had a guy like Andrew Bogut not making either team and he led the league in blocks, and was among the league leaders in rebounds and defensive stops (blocks + steals + charges drawn).

BTW when you do a search for "all nba defensive teams 2011" you get this link to the LA Times - http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kobe-bryant-named-to-nbas-all-defensive-team-for-ninth-time.html - which includes notable quoteables like:





Spin away, Kobe stans!

There is nothing to spin. Kobe's awards are a sign of his defensive dominance among other shooting guards. Not Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum. I don't understand why this is a hard concept to grasp. The only legitimate beef is that everyday role players don't get enough play in the voting process. I agree but that has been the case since the all defensive team was first created. All of the other legends of the game had the same superstar benefit when it comes to voting.

[RRR3]

There is nothing to spin. Kobe's awards are a sign of his defensive dominance among other shooting guards. Not Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum. I don't understand why this is a hard concept to grasp. The only legitimate beef is that everyday role players don't get enough play in the voting process. I agree but that has been the case since the all defensive team was first created. All of the other legends of the game had the same superstar benefit when it comes to voting.
"defensive dominance" :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Vienceslav]

The 2011 All-D teams were weird. You had a guy like Andrew Bogut not making either team and he led the league in blocks, and was among the league leaders in rebounds and defensive stops (blocks + steals + charges drawn).

BTW when you do a search for "all nba defensive teams 2011" you get this link to the LA Times - http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kobe-bryant-named-to-nbas-all-defensive-team-for-ninth-time.html - which includes notable quoteables like:





Spin away, Kobe stans!
I

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]I

[StateOfMind12]

A motivated T-Mac was definitely on Kobe's level as a defender. Stuff it already. :facepalm
:roll:


I expect Kobe to get 1st teams for at least 3-5 years after he retires.
5 is too much, I would say 2-3.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All-NBA Team Selections by Player

1. Kareem 15
2. Kobe 14
2. Malone 14
2.. Shaq 14

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kobe 12
2. Garnett 12

All Star Selections

1. Kareem 19
2. Shaq 15
3. Kobe 14
3. Garnett 14
3. West 14
3. Jordan 14
3. Malone 14

UPDATED with 2011-2012 results

[Punpun]

Watch out Duncan. And were All-NBA team already released ? Did I miss them ?

Edit : Kobe has 10 All-nba first team. More than ANYBODY else.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Watch out Duncan. And were All-NBA team already released ? Did I miss them ?

Edit : Kobe has 10 All-nba first team. More than ANYBODY else.

Thats only active players

All NBA 1st team selections by Player

1. Malone 11
2. Kobe 10
2. Kareem 10
2. Jordan 10
2. Cousy 10
2. West 10
2. Pettit 10
2. Baylor 10

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Please list the 33-yr olds who made first-team All NBA.
Also, please list the same for those who played their 16th NBA season.
TIA

[It's A VC3!!!]

His defensive team nominations are absurd and he shouldn't have been voted for that but it's insane how many all-star teams he's been on. He easily has two to three more in him putting him at second most according to the above few posts.

[konex]

it's insane how many all-star teams he's been on. He easily has two to three more in him putting him at second most according to the above few posts.

And the 99 ASG was cancelled so there were no selections

[Odinn]

Please list the 33-yr olds who made first-team All NBA.
Kareem, Shaq, Malone, Jordan, Erving, Havlicek, West. I believe you were expecting less.:lol



Also, please list the same for those who played their 16th NBA season.
I guess Kobe is the only one who made that but props to Kobe averaging 15 mpg in rookise season and 26 mpg in sophomore season.:cheers:
For instance; Kareem got his last 1st team in 85-86 season. He was 38. He was at his 17th season. At the end of 85-86 season, his career min was 51002.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kareem, Shaq, Malone, Jordan, Erving, Havlicek, West. I believe you were expecting less.:lol



I guess Kobe is the only one who made that but props to Kobe averaging 15 mpg in rookise season and 26 mpg in sophomore season.:cheers:
For instance; Kareem got his last 1st team in 85-86 season. He was 38. He was at his 17th season. At the end of 85-86 season, his career min was 51002.
Actually, I was expecting a lot more people who made it at age 33. Are you sure Gervin did not make it?
If Kareem did it in his 17th season, then why say Kobe is the only one?
You want to take another crack on it based on minutes played? Seems like it would make you feel better.

[AlphaWolf24]

All-NBA Team Selections by Player

1. Kareem 15
2. Kobe 14
2. Malone 14
2.. Shaq 14

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 13
2. Kobe 12
2. Garnett 12

All Star Selections

1. Kareem 19
2. Shaq 15
3. Kobe 14
3. Garnett 14
3. West 14
3. Jordan 14
3. Malone 14

UPDATED with 2011-2012 results


MJ should really have only 13.....techniccally no one voted for him in 2003

[Odinn]

Actually, I was expecting a lot more people who made it at age 33. Are you sure Gervin did not make it?
If Kareem did it in his 17th season, then why say Kobe is the only one?
You want to take another crack on it based on minutes played? Seems like it would make you feel better.
Kareem wasn't All-NBA 1st in 16th season. That's why I said Kobe is the only one.

When it comes to longevity, there is no certain criteria actually. It can be age, it can be minutes, it can be #th season. I do not like that 16th season argument. In his first 2 seasons he started 7 games out of 150 games. And his mpg was 21. Kobe played almost 42400 minutes and just 3160 of them = 2 season while he played more than 3160 minutes in 3 different seasons and averaged 38+ mpg in 11 seasons. That's why I do not find that 16th season words accurate. If he was a rookie like LeBron, that would be different.

[arifgokcen]

This year Mike brown going to lakers helped kobe a lot.Brown tends to ride his superstars a lot as we know from cavs days with lebron.He would have averaged around 24ppg with phil jackson.

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem, Shaq, Malone, Jordan, Erving, Havlicek, West. I believe you were expecting less.:lol



I guess Kobe is the only one who made that but props to Kobe averaging 15 mpg in rookise season and 26 mpg in sophomore season.:cheers:
For instance; Kareem got his last 1st team in 85-86 season. He was 38. He was at his 17th season. At the end of 85-86 season, his career min was 51002.
Based on what i read here, you'd think it would have been lots more with Kobe being so overrated and all.

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem wasn't All-NBA 1st in 16th season. That's why I said Kobe is the only one.

When it comes to longevity, there is no certain criteria actually. It can be age, it can be minutes, it can be #th season. I do not like that 16th season argument. In his first 2 seasons he started 7 games out of 150 games. And his mpg was 21. Kobe played almost 42400 minutes and just 3160 of them = 2 season while he played more than 3160 minutes in 3 different seasons and averaged 38+ mpg in 11 seasons. That's why I do not find that 16th season words accurate. If he was a rookie like LeBron, that would be different.
Based on your criteria, Kobes career averages just went up.

[Big#50]

He's popular. The league wanted Jordan part two. They thought they had it with Kobe, but he was failing bad leading his team anywhere. The league moved on to Wade. Gifted him a red carpet to the free throw line during the finals. The league thought they had the new Jordan part two. Then they realized Wade wasnt that guy. They gifted Kobe a great big man. Kobe was Jordan part two again.
Good Job, NBA.
Wade and Kobe belong nowhere near the All NBA Defensive Team. Specially Kobe. He deserved at least three. Wouldn't say first team nods, though.

[RazorBaLade]

He's popular. The league wanted Jordan part two. They thought they had it with Kobe, but he was failing bad leading his team anywhere. The league moved on to Wade. Gifted him a red carpet to the free throw line during the finals. The league thought they had the new Jordan part two. Then they realized Wade wasnt that guy. They gifted Kobe a great big man. Kobe was Jordan part two again.
Good Job, NBA.
Wade and Kobe belong nowhere near the All NBA Defensive Team. Specially Kobe. He deserved at least three. Wouldn't say first team nods, though.

traded marc gasol and the cap space they used ot sign zbo..

[Big#50]

traded marc gasol and the cap space they used ot sign zbo..
At the time. Everyone knew it was a gift. Gasol was the franchise player for his team. Led them to the playoffs. Was an all star who could get you 21/10.

[The Iron Fist]

He's popular. The league wanted Jordan part two. They thought they had it with Kobe, but he was failing bad leading his team anywhere. The league moved on to Wade. Gifted him a red carpet to the free throw line during the finals. The league thought they had the new Jordan part two. Then they realized Wade wasnt that guy. They gifted Kobe a great big man. Kobe was Jordan part two again.
Good Job, NBA.
Wade and Kobe belong nowhere near the All NBA Defensive Team. Specially Kobe. He deserved at least three. Wouldn't say first team nods, though.
Kobe led his team to titles faster than Jordan did. Get off his dick already. You didn't even see him play.

[RazorBaLade]

At the time. Everyone knew it was a gift. Gasol was the franchise player for his team. Led them to the playoffs. Was an all star who could get you 21/10.

I agree that it was a lopsided trade but I don't agree taking it as far as a gift/rig/etc. Gasol led that team to an 0-12 record in the playoffs. They wanted to rebuild and cap space and marc gasol was a good deal.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He's popular. The league wanted Jordan part two. They thought they had it with Kobe, but he was failing bad leading his team anywhere. The league moved on to Wade. Gifted him a red carpet to the free throw line during the finals. The league thought they had the new Jordan part two. Then they realized Wade wasnt that guy. They gifted Kobe a great big man. Kobe was Jordan part two again.
Good Job, NBA.
Wade and Kobe belong nowhere near the All NBA Defensive Team. Specially Kobe. He deserved at least three. Wouldn't say first team nods, though.

Seems legit...

2005 was Kobe's worst showing for the all defensive team as well as the all league team in the last 14 or so years.

Some would cite Kobe missing about 20 games due to injuries but it makes more sense that the NBA conspiracy think tank had decided to favor Wade briefly instead.

You Jordan mythologists are really smart for figuring that out.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Kobe led his team to titles faster than Jordan did. Get off his dick already. You didn't even see him play.

Really?

[The Iron Fist]

Really?
What benchmark do you want to use? The time he came into the league or when Shaq left?

[PJR]

Really?

There are no group of fans more deluded than the ones of Kobrick. Don't waste your time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All-NBA Team Selections by Player

1. Kareem 15
1.. Kobe 15
2. Malone 14
2.. Shaq 14
2. Duncan 14

NBA All-Defensive Selections by Player

1. Duncan 14
2. Kobe 12
2. Garnett 12

All Star Selections

1. Kareem 19
2. Shaq 15
2. Kobe 15
2. Garnett 15
3. West 14
3. Jordan 14
3. Malone 14
3. Duncan 14

UPDATED with 2012-2013 results

Duncan with a solid comeback season messing up Kobe's triple crown. :applause:

[Dro]

Kobe led his team to titles faster than Jordan did. Get off his dick already. You didn't even see him play.
:biggums:

[tazb]

These "awards" lost all credibility when Kobe was winning them undeservingly, so really, who cares?

[ispin69]

It will be officially a joke when Kobe makes the all defensive team and all star again this year. He might not even play the first half of the nba season and he'll still win it merely because of popularity and overhype. The same casual fans will probably still vote for him after he's retired because they wouldn't even know he retired yet much less name someone more deserving of that.

[gts]

It will be officially a joke when Kobe makes the all defensive team and all star again this year. He might not even play the first half of the nba season and he'll still win it merely because of popularity and overhype. The same casual fans will probably still vote for him after he's retired because they wouldn't even know he retired yet much less name someone more deserving of that.

All nba and all defense are voted in by the coaches

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shame about the following:

- James Jordan's death
- MJ's subsequent depression
- Following elementary baseball dreams
- Boredom of domination
- Jerry Krause breaking up a dynasty due to stinginess

Otherwise so many of these things, whether it's MVPs, all star teams, rings, Finals MVPs, scoring titles, all-time scoring leader would be so out of reach it isn't even funny.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Shame about the following:

- James Jordan's death
- MJ's subsequent depression
- Following elementary baseball dreams
- Boredom of domination
- Jerry Krause breaking up a dynasty due to stinginess

Otherwise so many of these things, whether it's MVPs, all star teams, rings, Finals MVPs, scoring titles, all-time scoring leader would be so out of reach it isn't even funny.

Jordan mythologists stay wanting bonus points for quitting on his teammates twice. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It will be officially a joke when Kobe makes the all defensive team and all star again this year. He might not even play the first half of the nba season and he'll still win it merely because of popularity and overhype. The same casual fans will probably still vote for him after he's retired because they wouldn't even know he retired yet much less name someone more deserving of that.

Kind of like when Jordan made it as the most inefficient chucker in the league (with the Wizards)?

or like when Magic made it while retired?

Kobe getting criticized for hypothetically getting awards in a way that other legends already did without complaint. :oldlol:

[zoom17]

Kind of like when Jordan made it as the most inefficient chucker in the league (with the Wizards)?

or like when Magic made it while retired?

Kobe getting criticized for hypothetically getting awards in a way that other legends already did without complaint. :oldlol:

:facepalm

[branslowski]

:facepalm

Why are you face palming when its true...Did you watch MJ with the Wizards?


I swear you new posters/alts are dumb as f*ck.

[ripthekik]

These "awards" lost all credibility when Kobe was winning them undeservingly, so really, who cares?
just like the ring losing credibility as lebron won them the last two years

[zoom17]

just like the ring losing credibility as lebron won them the last two years

To mad most people don't agree with you dumbass:rockon:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan mythologists
Correction, Jordan Realists

[riseagainst]

All nba and all defense are voted in by the coaches

:roll:

/ether

I love how people flip flop between the credibility of votings by coaches or the media. Whatever favors their agenda, they agree with them.