Who's Better? Part 1: Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[RRR3]

I know I've been doing a lot of these threads lately but they're fun :D. IDK how many of these I'll do (one a day, not sure for how long) but in this series I'm going to compare the greatest players of all time to one another. First up is MJ, widely considered the GOAT, vs. KAJ, who at least from my memory seems to be called the GOAT most often if MJ is not one's choice. Anyways....


http://archive.sltrib.com/images/2009/0927/flashandersen_0927~2.jpghttp://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/kareem52301.jpg


"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us....[Jordan is] the best ever."-Magic Johnson

[Kareem's skyhook is] the most awesome weapon in the history of the sport"-Pat Riley


Michael Jordan Regular Season Stats (bold indicates led NBA for seasons. Bold indicates all-time record for Career)
*Red Indicates Bulls, Blue Indicates Wizards
1984-85: 28/7/6/2/1 on 52/17 (9-52)/85. 25.8 PER
1985-86: (18 games, 25 MPG) 23/4/3/2/1 on 46/17 (3-18)/84. 27.5 PER
1986-87: 37/5/5/3/2 on 48/18 (12-66)/86. 29.8 PER
1987-88: 35/6/6/3/2 on 54/13 (7-53)/84. 31.7 PER
1988-89: 33/8/8/3/1 on 54/28/85. 31.1 PER
1989-90: 34/7/6/3/1 on 53/38/85. 31.2 PER
1990-91: 32/6/6/3/1 on 54/31/85. 31.6 PER
1991-92: 30/6/6/2/1 on 52/27/83. 27.7 PER
1992-93: 33/7/6/3/1 on 50/35/84. 29.7 PER
1994-95: (17 games) 27/7/5/2/1 on 41/50/80. 22.1 PER
1995-96: 30/6/4/2/1 on 50/43/83. 29.4 PER
1996-97: 30/6/4/2/1 on 49/37/83. 27.8 PER
1997-98: 29/6/4/2/1 on 47/24/78. 25.2 PER
2001-02: 23/6/5/1/0 on 42/19/79. 20.8 PER
2002-03: 20/6/4/2/1 on 45/29/82. 19.3 PER
Career Regular Season Stats: 30/6/5/2/1 on 50/33/84. 27.9 PER

Michael Jordan Playoff Stats
1984-85: 4 games, 29/6/9/3/1 on 44/13/83. 24.7 PER
1985-86: 3 games, 44/6/6/2/1 on 51/100 (1-1)/87. 30.1 PER
1986-87: 3 games, 36/7/6/2/2 on 42/40/90. 28.1 PER
1987-88: 10 games, 36/7/5/2/1 on 53/33 (1-3)/87. 28.4 PER
1988-89: 17 games, 35/7/8/2/1 on 51/29/80. 29.9 PER
1989-90: 16 games, 37/7/7/3/1 on 51/32/84. 31.6 PER
1990-91: 17 games, 31/6/8/2/1 on 52/39/85. 32.0 PER
1991-92: 22 games, 35/6/6/2/1 on 50/39/86. 27.2 PER
1992-93: 19 games, 35/7/6/2/1 on 48/39/81. 30.1 PER
1994-95: 10 games, 32/7/5/2/1 on 48/37/81. 24.8 PER
1995-96: 18 games, 31/5/4/2/0 on 46/40/82. 26.7 PER
1996-97: 19 games, 31/8/5/2/1 on 46/19/83. 27.1 PER
1997-98: 21 games, 32/5/4/2/1 on 46/30/81. 28.1 PER
Career Playoff Stats: 33/6/6/2/1 on 49/33/83. 28.6 PER

Awards and Accomplishments
14x All-Star
1984-85 NBA Rookie of the Year
1987-88 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
3x All-Star Game MVP
5x NBA MVP
6x NBA Finals MVP
Member of 6 championship teams including the 96 bulls who set a record by going 72-10
3x Rookie of the Month
16x Player of the Month
1984-85 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
10x All-NBA (1st)
1x All-NBA (2nd)
9x All-Defensive (1st)
Led NBA in Points per Game 10 times
10th in NBA in Assists Per Game in 1988-89
Led NBA in steals per game 3 times
Led NBA In PER 7 times
Number one in NBA history in Points Per Game
Number one in NBA history in PER
Number 3 in NBA history in Steals Per Game
Number in one in NBA Playoffs History in PPG
Number one in NBA playoffs History in PER
Number 6 in NBA Playoffs history in Steals per game
Led NBA Playoffs in PPG 10 times
Led NBA Playoffs in PER 6 times
Led NBA Playoffs in steals twice
2x NBA Slam Dunk Champion
NCAA Champion (1982)
2

[Bigsmoke]

do I even have to say it?

[Go Getter]

It's like asking how do you want to be obliterated the atom bomb or the hydrogen bomb.

[blablabla]

i love your threads they are just a bunch of stats you copy pasted from basketball reference/wikipedia without any actual information

to answer your question
mj and it's not even close

[Vienceslav]

You make the threads look very aesthetically pleasing by using the colors of the respective teams they played for highlighting the stats , i

[andthefoul]

@insidehoops: Brian Scalabrine unleashed 1.1 PPG of PAIN while playing for the Chicago Bulls last season

Now that this discussion has been settled, we can move on to the next one.

[RRR3]

i love your threads they are just a bunch of stats you copy pasted from basketball reference/wikipedia without any actual information

to answer your question
mj and it's not even close
What else do you want me to do? Just post links to B-ref? Believe it or not, this takes a fair amount of time, and I also include quotes (when I can find them), awards, highlights, and sometimes my opinion if I feel it is needed. I just have the stats etc as a guide, I don't expect them to significantly impact people's decisions. Secondly, while I agree that MJ is the GOAT, there are legitimate arguments people have made for Kareem. Kareem is the only person I could think of who I thought would get ANY votes against MJ, so that's a reason he's here.

[blablabla]

What else do you want me to do? Just post links to B-ref? Believe it or not, this takes a fair amount of time, and I also include quotes (when I can find them), awards, highlights, and sometimes my opinion if I feel it is needed. I just have the stats etc as a guide, I don't expect them to significantly impact people's decisions. Secondly, while I agree that MJ is the GOAT, there are legitimate arguments people have made for Kareem. Kareem is the only person I could think of who I thought would get ANY votes against MJ, so that's a reason he's here.
those stats are f*cking useless i mean come on PER
and they are really useless when you are comparing a center to a sg

why don't talk about the impact those players made on their teams how they compared to other players of their generation what they were known for etc.
more comments like the magic one on jordan your highlights are also very nice i'll give you credit for that
but those stats and accomplishments were posted a million times on ish and every basketball fan should know that jordan has 6rings and kareem 6mvps

[Smoke117]

i love your threads they are just a bunch of stats you copy pasted from basketball reference/wikipedia without any actual information

to answer your question
mj and it's not even close

Actually it is. If there is one other player that really does have a case for the GOAT it's Kareem Adbdul Jabbar. Who's better? I'd probably say Michael Jordan considering what he did and that he did it as a guard but if I was asked to draft one and build a franchise around him? I'd pick Kareem.

[RRR3]

those stats are f*cking useless i mean come on PER
and they are really useless when you are comparing a center to a sg

why don't talk about the impact those players made on their teams how they compared to other players of their generation what they were known for etc.
more comments like the magic one on jordan your highlights are also very nice i'll give you credit for that
but those stats and accomplishments were posted a million times on ish and every basketball fan should know that jordan has 6rings and kareem 6mvps
Again, it's just there to help people remember things if they aren't quite sure, for example, how many PPG Kareem had in 1972 or something like that. Impact is not a completely tangible thing (not necessarily, at least, it can be) so that may be up to certain posters to decide. I think most of us think MJ was the best player of his generation rather easily, and Kareem was the best player in the NBA for a large part of his career.

[Sarcastic]

Michael Jordan was better.

[blablabla]

Actually it is. If there is one other player that really does have a case for the GOAT it's Kareem Adbdul Jabbar. Who's better? I'd probably say Michael Jordan considering what he did and that he did it as a guard but if I was asked to draft one and build a franchise around him? I'd pick Kareem.
imo kareem is overrated he didn't win with the lakers until magic showed up
i'm not too impressed of his impact on teams
also magic,russell,wilt and even bird if he didn't have injuries > kareem

[97 bulls]

imo kareem is overrated he didn't win with the lakers until magic showed up
i'm not too impressed of his impact on teams
also magic,russell,wilt and even bird if he didn't have injuries > kareem
I agree that jordan is better. And should be ranked higher. But its close. Fortunately for jabaar, he gets full credit for all of his championships. If he were treated like others, he'd be ranked 6th-8th. And if he were penalized for his failures like others, he'd probably be ranked lower.

[Doctor Rivers]

It's like asking how do you want to be obliterated the atom bomb or the hydrogen bomb.

h-bomb is much more powerful. i'll take my chances with the atom bomb

[RRR3]

I agree that jordan is better. And should be ranked higher. But its close. Fortunately for jabaar, he gets full credit for all of his championships. If he were treated like others, he'd be ranked 6th-8th. And if he were penalized for his failures like others, he'd probably be ranked lower.
Say what?

[upside24]

MJ imo. KAJ couldn't win a championship without Oscar or Magic. I know Jordan didn't win without Pippen, but Scottie is no Oscar or Magic.

[97 bulls]

Say what?
Lol, the point I'm trying to make is that kareem is the only guy that doesn't have an asterisk next to his his championships in 87, 88 and 85 cuz he wasnt the best player on the team.

I guess the same holds true for magic.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

i'm not too impressed of his impact on teams


This kind of shit really shows how little some people at ISH understand basketball. This is the height of ignorance. So much so that is beyond a waste of time to actually refute it. Enjoy another thread of discrediting one player with a monster resume to lift another player up. Yawn.

[ThaRegul8r]

This kind of shit really shows how little some people at ISH understand basketball. This is the height of ignorance. So much so that is beyond a waste of time to actually refute it. Enjoy another thread of discrediting one player with a monster resume to lift another player up. Yawn.

Welcome to internet basketball message board discussions.

[bd001217]

Not only did Jordan not win a championship without Pippen, but he never played on a winning (.500+) team without Pippen.

All five of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen is 1 win and 9 losses.

GOAT? Don't make me laugh.

Jordan was supposed to be all-word defensively. The 1994 Bulls (without Jordan) gave up fewer points per game and held their opponents to a LOWER FG percentage than the 93 Bulls (with Jordan). You lose supposedly the best defensive player in the game and the team's defense IMPROVES? How does that happen?


Jabbar was better on every level... high school, college and the NBA.


The 93 Bulls win 57 games with Jordan. He retired, and the next year they won 55 games. You lose the GOAT and your win total drops by only TWO? Yeah, right. GOAT my butt.

[ballsohard247]

Not only did Jordan not win a championship without Pippen, but he never played on a winning (.500+) team without Pippen.

All five of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen is 1 win and 9 losses.

GOAT? Don't make me laugh.

Jordan was supposed to be all-word defensively. The 1994 Bulls (without Jordan) gave up fewer points per game and held their opponents to a LOWER FG percentage than the 93 Bulls (with Jordan). You lose supposedly the best defensive player in the game and the team's defense IMPROVES? How does that happen?


Jabbar was better on every level... high school, college and the NBA.
3 posts since 2008? Who are you really?

[La Frescobaldi]

These are cool an all but it's not a real comparison to me. I ain't putting Kareem at the 2 no matter how great his outside shooting was (and oh yeah, IT WAS).

And Jordan ain't gonna body centers and forwards in the paint. Strong as MJ was (and oh yeah, HE WAS), Barkley or Moses or McHale, or any good center really, would beat him down when it comes to position for rebounds over a entire game let alone a season.

But why would you even do that? Two different roles entirely.

To compare these two guys, one thing you could look at is, where do they rank at their own position?

I think not too many people will disagree that MJ has the 2 locked up. Jerry West or Kobe might be in a debate but whether they have a valid claim or not, that will usually get shouted down.


I won't ever rank Kareem above Chamberlain at the 5. Yeah Kareem got his licks in '71, '72 with his unstoppable offense.... but Chamberlain led the league in rebounds, defense, fg%, and undoubtedly blocked shots every year they played against each other. Wilt had the complete game at 5, Kareem did not and never did. Chamberlain as a Sixer? I saw those guys, and it ain't close. Not close whatsoever.

A lot of guys (not me but I would listen close) might make an argument for Moses over Kareem. Moses Malone in the ABA was some kind of crazy good. And there's a ton of guys that will argue for Hakeem and Shaq, and their points are totally valid. Some of my old hoops buddies will tell you Russell was better than Kareem

So here you got MJ with not really much competition for an all-time team starting job but Kareem if he makes the team at all, is on the bench.


But now if you are talking 1on1, make it take it top of the key? Yeah MJ got some dunks in on Kareem's help defense in games, but 1on1 25 year old Kareem when he had his legs, that man will beat MJ 999 times out of 999.

[Inception28]

The OP has 34.85 posts per day, :oldlol:

[Coffee Black]

It's close, but MJ is better.

[ThaRegul8r]

A lot of guys (not me but I would listen close) might make an argument for Moses over Kareem. Moses Malone in the ABA was some kind of crazy good.

Moses was "crazy good" in the ABA for his all of two seasons straight out of high school as a 19 and 20-year old?

[La Frescobaldi]

yes he was.

[ThaRegul8r]

Some of my old hoops buddies will tell you Russell was better than Kareem

You don't have to go with what some old hoops buddies said. Pat Riley and Kareem himself said it.

[La Frescobaldi]

I do, because when I saw Russell play he was past his best days. He was still a great center but like the speed you see on film of 62 all star game, he didn't have any of that when I saw him playing games. My older friends, who did see him in his glory years , they may put gloss on the past like we all do but they at least saw that athlete. Russell's great days to me is like talking about Jim Thorpe or something.

Russell imo struggled as player coach his first 2 seasons, and he was carried a lot in 68 & 69 by Havlicek and Sam Jones. That's no shame or knock on Russell whatsoever. His legs went a lot of miles in a short time when you figure things like 25+ exhibition games each year, and can you even imagine being player coach!!

[32Dayz]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Kareem

Jordan is better.

:pimp:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wait, Why isn't Brian Scalabrine in the conversation?

[DaHeezy]

This kind of shit really shows how little some people at ISH understand basketball. This is the height of ignorance. So much so that is beyond a waste of time to actually refute it. Enjoy another thread of discrediting one player with a monster resume to lift another player up. Yawn.

Agree. Especially when some says "it's not even close". Extremely close minded.

[RRR3]

Wait, Why isn't Brian Scalabrine in the conversation?
We're talking about humans, not Gods. It's unfair to include Scal, because there's nobody to compare him to.

[ThaRegul8r]

Russell imo struggled as player coach his first 2 seasons, and he was carried a lot in 68 & 69 by Havlicek and Sam Jones. That's no shame or knock on Russell whatsoever. His legs went a lot of miles in a short time when you figure things like 25+ exhibition games each year, and can you even imagine being player coach!!

Russell struggled his first season trying to balance coaching and playing

[Asukal]

Do we really have to compare? MJ is better. Kareem despite all his dominance couldn't win without another GOAT candidate. If Magic didn't come along, Kareem would have only one ring and Bird would be the GOAT. :roll:

[La Frescobaldi]

nah I don't go by points, why would you when a guy is a defensive specialist?

But I still stand by what I said about Sam and Hondo those last couple seasons. Russell was still great, but he didn't do ALL the intimidating on that 35% shooting. Sanders still played great D, and the Celtics perimeter defense was powerful.

Even in Sam's last year he was so underrated. It'd make you vomit to look at the papers and see him not even mentioned. All he had to do was guard guys like Logo, Oscar, Frazier, Jack Marin, Pearl......

[Duncan21formvp]

MJ , Russell and Kareem are top 3. I have MJ #1 because he has the accolades, titles, stats and productivity and won all his titles as the best in the league but Russ and Kareem are breathing on his neck.

[ThaRegul8r]

MJ , Russell and Kareem are top 3. I have MJ #1 because he has the accolades, titles, stats and productivity and won all his titles as the best in the league but Russ and Kareem are breathing on his neck.

You always say this, but then you make it abundantly clear that you don't actually think it's close.

[Duncan21formvp]

You always say this, but then you make it abundantly clear that you don't actually think it's close.

No it's close, but I make the case of why the other is ahead barely.

[Smoke117]

The OP has 34.85 posts per day, :oldlol:


So? He likes discussing basketball, what's wrong with that. Probably better than how you spend most of your time at the computer with your hand down your pants.

[ThaRegul8r]

MJ , Russell and Kareem are top 3. I have MJ #1 because he has the accolades, titles, stats and productivity and won all his titles as the best in the league but Russ and Kareem are breathing on his neck.

You always say this, but then you make it abundantly clear that you don't actually think it's close.

No it's close, but I make the case of why the other is ahead barely.

False. I've seen you shred both of the other two as most proponents of players do to potential challengers to whatever player they support, showing that you don't actually "they're breathing on his neck," but make the politically correct statement that it is, even though it's not what you actually believe (as your actions have demonstrated, which speak louder than words).

[ballsohard247]

So? He likes discussing basketball, what's wrong with that. Probably better than how you spend most of your time at the computer with your hand down your pants.
:applause:

[Asukal]

So? He likes discussing basketball, what's wrong with that. Probably better than how you spend most of your time at the computer with your hand down your pants.

repped :roll: :roll: :roll:

EDIT: LOL! I can't rep you anymore.

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem
6 rings
4 mvps in his first seven years, 6 total
3 straight NCAA titles with 3 straight Most Outstanding Player awards
3 straight NYC titles at Power Memorial


Dominated at every level, from the moment he stepped on the court. Impacted his teams in a much bigger way than Jordan did and won titles in two different eras.

[Asukal]

Dominated at every level, from the moment he stepped on the court. Impacted his teams in a much bigger way than Jordan did and won titles in two different eras.

Dominated every level except championship level. He won in 71 plus FMVP and never again until 80 despite being far away the best player in the league during that era. When Magic came he won 5 more titles, but only 1 fmvp during the showtime lakers era. What exactly did he do better than Jordan apart from being MVP king of the 70s?

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan

6x NBA Champion as the Undisputed Leader of his team
6x NBA Finals MVP
5x NBA Regular Season MVP
10x NBA Scoring Champion

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan also won a NCAA Championship and an Olympic Gold Medal in 1984 as an amateur player.

[The Iron Fist]

Dominated every level except championship level. He won in 71 plus FMVP and never again until 80 despite being far away the best player in the league during that era. When Magic came he won 5 more titles, but only 1 fmvp during the showtime lakers era. What exactly did he do better than Jordan apart from being MVP king of the 70s?

Score more points.


But winning the MVP four times in the first seven years of a career,

is dominating.

Kareem changed his teams the moment he got on the court for them.

Bucks, 27-55 before
56-26 his rookie season
2nd season, champion.

Lakers, 30-52 before
40-42 next
53-29 second.



Jordan
27-55 before
38-44 next
30-52 next
40-42


Took him 5 years to get a winning season. Kareem impacted his teams immediately.


When Pippen came, he went on a nice run with a great team. Then, didn't do shit again when Pippen left.

Kareem>Jordan.

Its ok to say it, because its true. Just because you didn't grow up watching products pitched by Kareem doesn't mean he wasn't an all time great player. Just because he didn't have ESPN showing his highlights in the 70s on a nightly basis doesn't mean he wasn't an all time great player.


Just means he came up in an era when basketball was rarely shown on a massive scale. Doesn't take anything away from his mastery of the game though.

But since you think Magic made him this great player in the 80s,

where are Magics titles minus Kareem?

[The Iron Fist]

Michael Jordan

6x NBA Champion as the Undisputed Leader of his team
6x NBA Finals MVP
5x NBA Regular Season MVP
10x NBA Scoring Champion
In that case,

11>6
Having the finals MVP award named after you> getting punished from the league for 2 years.

Bill Russell = GOAT?

[Lebron23]

In that case,

11>6
Having the finals MVP award named after you> getting punished from the league for 2 years.

Bill Russell = GOAT?


Russell was not a better individual player than Kareem and Jordan. Kareem and Jordan dominated on both ends of the floor.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

It's hilarious when people say "Kareem couldn't win without Oscar or Magic" but neglect the fact that Scottie Pippen also has 6 championship rings.

Sure, Scottie isn't close to Oscar or Magic in all time rankings. But at the time that MJ was winning his titles, Pippen was a bonafide star. One of the best players in the league. Can't forget guys like Grant or Rodman either.

It's stupid to punish guys for playing on good teams when no one wins without a great team. Also, you can't forget the fact that these players help make these teams great in the first place. Neither the Bulls nor Lakers are a dynasty without Jordan or Kareem respectively.

[Asukal]

Score more points.


But winning the MVP four times in the first seven years of a career,

is dominating.

Kareem changed his teams the moment he got on the court for them.

Bucks, 27-55 before
56-26 his rookie season
2nd season, champion.

Lakers, 30-52 before
40-42 next
53-29 second.



Jordan
27-55 before
38-44 next
30-52 next
40-42


Took him 5 years to get a winning season. Kareem impacted his teams immediately.


When Pippen came, he went on a nice run with a great team. Then, didn't do shit again when Pippen left.

Kareem>Jordan.

Its ok to say it, because its true. Just because you didn't grow up watching products pitched by Kareem doesn't mean he wasn't an all time great player. Just because he didn't have ESPN showing his highlights in the 70s on a nightly basis doesn't mean he wasn't an all time great player.


Just means he came up in an era when basketball was rarely shown on a massive scale. Doesn't take anything away from his mastery of the game though.

But since you think Magic made him this great player in the 80s,

where are Magics titles minus Kareem?

So now Kareem is a better scorer than Jordan. :facepalm

Furthermore, Magic has 3 FMVPs to Kareem's 1 during their runs. :rolleyes:

Both Kareem and Jordan needed help to win, I'm not arguing against that. What I'm pointing out is that when Jordan got his help in Pippen, he was still the undisputed leader and THE MAN during their runs while Kareem on the other hand got outplayed by his teammate Magic Johnson, another top 5 player. Also don't be so smug about him winning that 71 season, because if he never played for the Lakers with Magic he'd only have 1 ring. :hammerhead:

Don't go by things like because blah blah wasn't highlight highlight.... listen old man, I never said Kareem is not an all time great. I'm saying he is not better than Jordan. :rolleyes:

[ballsohard247]

It's hilarious when people say "Kareem couldn't win without Oscar or Magic" but neglect the fact that Scottie Pippen also has 6 championship rings.

Sure, Scottie isn't close to Oscar or Magic in all time rankings. But at the time that MJ was winning his titles, Pippen was a bonafide star. One of the best players in the league. Can't forget guys like Grant or Rodman either.

It's stupid to punish guys for playing on good teams when no one wins without a great team. Also, you can't forget the fact that these players help make these teams great in the first place. Neither the Bulls nor Lakers are a dynasty without Jordan or Kareem respectively.
I agree it is stupid to punish Kareem for his teams performance but when you bring up the GOAT subject, that is one of the main things people look at. Could he win. In Kareems case yes, he just needed two top 15 players of all time to do it (top 10 depending on what you think of Oscar.)

[Asukal]

I agree it is stupid to punish Kareem for his teams performance but when you bring up the GOAT subject, that is one of the main things people look at. Could he win. In Kareems case yes, he just needed two top 15 players of all time to do it (top 10 depending on what you think of Oscar.)

True and I agree 100%. The thing that work against Kareem when compared to Jordan is that he got outplayed by his teammate in the playoffs. This is why I can't put him over Jordan, he is still an all time top 5 player and I don't dispute that at all.

[DaHeezy]

It's hilarious when people say "Kareem couldn't win without Oscar or Magic" but neglect the fact that Scottie Pippen also has 6 championship rings.

Sure, Scottie isn't close to Oscar or Magic in all time rankings. But at the time that MJ was winning his titles, Pippen was a bonafide star. One of the best players in the league. Can't forget guys like Grant or Rodman either.

It's stupid to punish guys for playing on good teams when no one wins without a great team. Also, you can't forget the fact that these players help make these teams great in the first place. Neither the Bulls nor Lakers are a dynasty without Jordan or Kareem respectively.

Agreed 100%. People always talk like Jordan was an individual but judge everyone against him as a team (so and so needed him argument). What people also take away from guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt etc... is that they had rivalries with guys in or at the cusp of top five all-time.

[blablabla]

This kind of shit really shows how little some people at ISH understand basketball. This is the height of ignorance. So much so that is beyond a waste of time to actually refute it. Enjoy another thread of discrediting one player with a monster resume to lift another player up. Yawn.
so russell has a monster resume and u would still rank kaj over him
Kobe first 3 titles dont count cus he played with shaq lebrons wont count cus he played with wade and bosh
birds dont count cus he wasnt fmvp in his first
According to ish
well go **** yourself everybody else would get ass raped on here if he failed as many times as kareem

[jlauber]

Michael Jordan also won a NCAA Championship and an Olympic Gold Medal in 1984 as an amateur player.

Kareem was a THREE-time NCAA Tournament MVP. He won THREE straight NCAA titles. His team's went 88-2, and those two losses were by scores of 71-69, and 46-44. AND, he avenged that 71-69 loss with a 101-69 blowout win the NCAA semi's (in a game in which his Bruins led by 44 points at one point.)

Hell, had freshmen been allowed to play, he would likely have gone 4-4. His freshman team handily beat the defending champion, and #1 ranked (at the time) varsity Bruin team in a pre-season scrimmage.

As for getting a Gold Medal...had Kareem decided to play for the USA team in the Olympics, I can't see them playing any worse than they did without him, when they blew thru the tournament to a Gold Medal. Players like Hayes, Unseld, and Maravich didn't play, either.

Kareem's "amateur" career may very well have been the greatest ever. And really, only Russell could challenge it. Even the Walton teams failed in his last NCAA tournament.

[jlauber]

Wait, Why isn't Brian Scalabrine in the conversation?

The tragic thing about this comment, is that he probably honestly believes Scalabrine should be in the conversation.

[madmax]

Kareem
6 rings
4 mvps in his first seven years, 6 total
3 straight NCAA titles with 3 straight Most Outstanding Player awards
3 straight NYC titles at Power Memorial


Dominated at every level, from the moment he stepped on the court. Impacted his teams in a much bigger way than Jordan did and won titles in two different eras.

:applause: :applause: :bowdown:
Lew Alcindor - GOAT
case closed

[rodman91]

Jordan,easily.

After first championship, he won other year when he played for Bulls. Since 91 to 98.. he has 6 championship in 6 seasons. 100% success.He was clearly best player in the league in every year in those seasons.

Kareem on the other hand...He won 1-2 as main guy. He won an lost many times in Lakers. He wasn't best man on his team in those championships.At least arguable.

Jordan was meaning of winning.Since Russell noone dominated championships like him.People are using "i'm michael jordan of ...." in daily life to say best at what they do.

[dunksby]

KAJ is the only player who can be argued as GOAT over MJ, yes it is that close. MJ ball huggers will never admit it though so no use arguing with them. Kareem did not win a title on his own which is natural since you need a Championship TEAM to win a championship just like MJ managed to win those titles. At the end of the day it is really hard to choose one between the two as the GOAT, but I lean toward KAJ.

[Odinn]

Anyone who says "easily" or "it's not even close" is clear-cut unconscious.

I rank both of them as #1 in my goat list.

[Legends66NBA7]

For me, you can't go wrong with either player, though I would slightly edge this to Jordan.

Jordan, Kareem, and Russell IMO, are the only ones who can be considered #1 GOAT with their resumes. They are in the Top tier level.

[Round Mound]

Wilt > Kareem

[rodman91]

"By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time"

First sentence from Nba.com

[Soundwave]

Jordan > Kareem for the main reason that Jordan was the no.1 option and driving force for six NBA titles.

Kareem was the best player on maybe 2 of the titles the Lakers won, and even that might be stretching it.

No offence to Kareem either ... but this group ...

C- McAdoo/Average 7 Footer
PF- Rambis
SF- Worthy
SG- Jordan
PG- Magic

How many titles do you think they could win together? 6? 7? 8? Even 9 doesn't seem impossible (take *that* Boston). Ship out Cooper for another big and it's virtually an unbeatable team.

[D-Wade316]

Russell was not a better individual player than Kareem and Jordan. Kareem and Jordan dominated on both ends of the floor.
Kareem's Defense (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1056693)
Was Kareem a defensive anchor? (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1137945)

[Psileas]

Kareem's Defense (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1056693)
Was Kareem a defensive anchor? (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1137945)

If DWS is the argument, the Bulls did not get increbible numbers when Pippen did not hit his peak/Rodman wasn't there, either:

1985: 16.4
1987: 22.2
1988: 26.7
1989: 20.6
1990: 18.5

Also: 1970-77 Milwaukee's rankings in opponent PPG:

1970: 3rd
1971: 2nd
1972: 2nd
1973: 2nd
1974: 2nd
1975: 8th (Kareem missed 20 games)
1976: 12th (Kareem gone)
1977: 21st among 22 teams

1970-75 Milwaukee's rankings in opponent FG%:

1970: N/A, but definitely pretty high
1971: 1st
1972: 1st
1973: 1st
1974: 1st
1975: 2nd
1976: 3rd (this one remained high - Elmore Smith was a very good defender, as well, but look what follows)
1977: 21st among 22 teams (Elmore Smith regressed and traded to Cleveland)

[D-Wade316]

If DWS is the argument, the Bulls did not get increbible numbers when Pippen did not hit his peak/Rodman wasn't there, either:

1985: 16.4
1987: 22.2
1988: 26.7
1989: 20.6
1990: 18.5

Also: 1970-77 Milwaukee's rankings in opponent PPG:

1970: 3rd
1971: 2nd
1972: 2nd
1973: 2nd
1974: 2nd
1975: 8th (Kareem missed 20 games)
1976: 12th (Kareem gone)
1977: 21st among 22 teams

1970-75 Milwaukee's rankings in opponent FG%:

1970: N/A, but definitely pretty high
1971: 1st
1972: 1st
1973: 1st
1974: 1st
1975: 2nd
1976: 3rd (this one remained high - Elmore Smith was a very good defender, as well, but look what follows)
1977: 21st among 22 teams (Elmore Smith regressed and traded to Cleveland)
I'm in the process of rereading and analyzing the 2 links. Perhaps I can make my case for or against your opinion later.