Wilt Chamberlain's 1961-1962 Game-by-Game stats

[D-Wade316]

Page 4 - http://web.archive.org/web/20101202150757/http://www.nba.com/sixers/media/pollack_statistical_guide_2010.pdf

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7393/wiltchamberlain.png

[magnax1]

Nice find.

[Kblaze8855]

12/31? 13/38? 53 shots and 15fts to score 51 points? For a guy who the league couldnt stand up to? As ive said before....Wilt should have likely been a lot more physical. Cant be going 13/38 or 12/31with his physical advantages. Comes a point you have to put aside perception of you and just bang on someone.

[D-Wade316]

Nice find.
Thanks. Was reading some of the posts in APBRmetric then unexpectedly found a link leading to Wilt's 1961-1962 campaign.

[D-Wade316]

12/31? 13/38? 53 shots and 15fts to score 51 points? For a guy who the league couldnt stand up to? As ive said before....Wilt should have likely been a lot more physical. Cant be going 13/38 or 12/31with his physical advantages. Comes a point you have to put aside perception of you and just bang on someone.
Someone would have shot him dead.

[DevilsAssassin]

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2963000/AlphaWolf-2963314_1611_930.jpg

[Lebron23]

Nice statsline.

[magnax1]

12/31? 13/38? 53 shots and 15fts to score 51 points? For a guy who the league couldnt stand up to? As ive said before....Wilt should have likely been a lot more physical. Cant be going 13/38 or 12/31with his physical advantages. Comes a point you have to put aside perception of you and just bang on someone.
Well he did nearly lead the league in FG%. It's not really fair to pick out a couple games, as everyone tends to have some bad ones.
His stats vs Boston look pretty awful though (at least comparatively)

[32Dayz]

Damn... he must have taken 3500+ shots that season.

Impressive stamina if anything.

Would really like to be able watch some games from that season to see the level of effort he put in on the defensive end also.
(Find it a bit odd how few fouls he averaged)

If he really shot that much while also being good defensively I'd be very impressed.

[Kblaze8855]

Well he did nearly lead the league in FG%. It's not really fair to pick out a couple games, as everyone tends to have some bad ones.
His stats vs Boston look pretty awful though (at least comparatively)

If I remember correctly he shot like 50% that year. Considering his 27 rebounds a game...how much of it had to be quick rebounds and putbacks? we see a lot of that in every game he plays.

Minus his gimme layups/dunks which were no doubt substantial....for him to shoot as low as 50%...he had to be shooting in the 40s if not 30s on shots he just set out to create.

That is hard to accept s the best he could possibly perform. Too many times ive seen him just get up for a posession or two and blow by guys for dunks or power over a guy for a layup. Then go back to fingerrolls and such. And this is later in his career before he stopped shooting jumpers.

He had to be throwing up some garbage(relative to what he could get) to possibly make only half his shots when hes probably getting 10 offensive rebounds a night and 4-5 dunks off them.

[D-Wade316]

If I remember correctly he shot like 50% that year. Considering his 27 rebounds a game...how much of it had to be quick rebounds and putbacks? we see a lot of that in every game he plays.

Minus his gimme layups/dunks which were no doubt substantial....for him to shoot as low as 50%...he had to be shooting in the 40s if not 30s on shots he just set out to create.

That is hard to accept s the best he could possibly perform. Too many times ive seen him just get up for a posession or two and blow by guys for dunks or power over a guy for a layup. Then go back to fingerrolls and such. And this is later in his career before he stopped shooting jumpers.

He had to be throwing up some garbage(relative to what he could get) to possibly make only half his shots when hes probably getting 10 offensive rebounds a night and 4-5 dunks off them.
Yeah. Shot selection during that era was horrible. He did improve on that as his career continued.

[magnax1]

If I remember correctly he shot like 50% that year. Considering his 27 rebounds a game...how much of it had to be quick rebounds and putbacks? we see a lot of that in every game he plays.

Minus his gimme layups/dunks which were no doubt substantial....for him to shoot as low as 50%...he had to be shooting in the 40s if not 30s on shots he just set out to create.

That is hard to accept s the best he could possibly perform. Too many times ive seen him just get up for a posession or two and blow by guys for dunks or power over a guy for a layup. Then go back to fingerrolls and such. And this is later in his career before he stopped shooting jumpers.

He had to be throwing up some garbage(relative to what he could get) to possibly make only half his shots when hes probably getting 10 offensive rebounds a night and 4-5 dunks off them.
I get what you're saying, but he nearly lead the league in FG%. What more do you want? I agree, he probably could've taken a few less shots and worked for different shots and raised his FG%, but really if you take away those easy shots under the basket, or put backs for almost any superstar ever, and their FG% would probably be hovering around the low 40s high 30s too.

[32Dayz]

Thats one of my biggest issues with Wilt and why I find it hard to say just how skilled/fluid/smooth he was as a Post-Scorer.

To have that big of a size/height/length advantage and regularly be shooting such bad %'s just baffles me.

[D-Wade316]

During that year, the entire league shot 42.6fg%. Bellamy lead the league in fg% at 51.9%. 50.5% at that time is very impressive.

[alanLA92]

That's Domination. :pimp: :bowdown:

[32Dayz]

During that year, the entire league shot 42.6fg%. Bellamy lead the league in fg% at 51.9%. 50.5% at that time is very impressive.

Dominant Big's tend to shoot a stable % even with league fluctuations.

He was able to shoot a much higher % later in his Career when he curtailed his shot attempts.

I see no reason he shouldn't have been shooting at worst 55%+ from the field during those years.

[D-Wade316]

Dominant Big's tend to shoot a stable % even with league fluctuations.

He was able to shoot a much higher % later in his Career when he curtailed his shot attempts.

I see no reason he shouldn't have been shooting at worst 55%+ from the field during those years.
Not really. George Mikan, the first dominant big, shot 41.6% in his career. We know the fact that if he played today, he'll shot higher than his career fg%. The 50s and 60s are incomparably different compared to other eras. Big men are no exception.

[32Dayz]

Yea.. but please explain to me what was stopping him from shooting a higher %?

It's not like defenses back then were better or more advanced then today's generation (opposite in my opinion) and with the size advantage he had he should have been much more efficient.

I respect your opinion bro but I disagree.

A man with his size advantage/athletic advantage and apparently "high quality" post skills shouldn't be held to such low %'s consistently imo.

Thats not a diss on Wilt either its just my opinion.

Maybe I am wrong and it was simply the style/pace of play that contributed to his lower %'s but its hard to say without video.

[julizaver]

I remember that Wilt considered his last game against Chicago Packers as his best of the year. I found an article about how observers count more than 20 blocks of Wilt in that game. According to his coach it was more than 20.
That's why I was wondering if this is the game, which Harvey Pollack mentioned of Wilt having 25 blocks. It is not clear however, because I have the impression that Wilt do this while in Sixers uniform. Also in that season Wilt blocked the first nine shot attempts of Walt Bellamy (holding him to 14 points) in their first meeting.

[D-Wade316]

Yea.. but please explain to me what was stopping him from shooting a higher %?

It's not like defenses back then were better or more advanced then today's generation (opposite in my opinion) and with the size advantage he had he should have been much more efficient.

I respect your opinion bro but I disagree.

A man with his size advantage/athletic advantage and apparently "high quality" post skills shouldn't be held to such low %'s consistently imo.

Thats not a diss on Wilt either its just my opinion.

Maybe I am wrong and it was simply the style/pace of play that contributed to his lower %'s but its hard to say without video.
Shot selection. The league as a whole shot poorly as well.

[Pointguard]

If I remember correctly he shot like 50% that year. Considering his 27 rebounds a game...how much of it had to be quick rebounds and putbacks? we see a lot of that in every game he plays.

Minus his gimme layups/dunks which were no doubt substantial....for him to shoot as low as 50%...he had to be shooting in the 40s if not 30s on shots he just set out to create.

That is hard to accept s the best he could possibly perform. Too many times ive seen him just get up for a posession or two and blow by guys for dunks or power over a guy for a layup. Then go back to fingerrolls and such. And this is later in his career before he stopped shooting jumpers.

He had to be throwing up some garbage(relative to what he could get) to possibly make only half his shots when hes probably getting 10 offensive rebounds a night and 4-5 dunks off them.

Wilt scored practically 40% more, per game, than the next player that year. Such separation does not exist in professional sports. Shaq was one of the most dominate players in the game and several players were superior scorers to him in his prime. And Shaq was primarily a scorer. He wasn't the top rebounder (he was getting half the rebounds Wilt was getting) and he wasn't blocking shots like Wilt either (he was probably getting like a third of what Wilt was getting but we don't know this). Jordan was the greatest scorer we seen, and was getting about half that percentage when he tried his hardest. And, btw, Jordan had off nights when he got that 37ppg too.

Was Wilt supposed to be perfect? Like you wouldn't question him if he worked 60ppg and 32 rebounds per game. When does it stop? Maybe you will name me the other players that have the energy to shoot as much as he did and maintain 50 percent and proved they could get 25 rebounds per game, much less 27? Heck show me the player that could do either. Jordan scored 69 points in a game and said Wilt's scoring record is safe - he was referencing the exhaustion factor.

If you put the points and rebounds together as units, Wilt would have a 25% increase on the next great center. Blocks would add to an outrageous separation from the other greatest in the sport. What Wilt averaged for 7 years of 550 games would be on par with best all around game from Shaq, Kareem, Akeem, Moses and Robinson in their careers.

You think Wilt shouldn't have taken short cuts here and there? After all, 80 games at a level nobody could approach for 2 games should account for something? I wonder if a player outside of Wilt ever got 50 and 27 in a game.
But hey, look out for that 13/38 game!!!

[Pointguard]

Yea.. but please explain to me what was stopping him from shooting a higher %?

It's not like defenses back then were better or more advanced then today's generation (opposite in my opinion) and with the size advantage he had he should have been much more efficient.

I respect your opinion bro but I disagree.

A man with his size advantage/athletic advantage and apparently "high quality" post skills shouldn't be held to such low %'s consistently imo.

Thats not a diss on Wilt either its just my opinion.

Maybe I am wrong and it was simply the style/pace of play that contributed to his lower %'s but its hard to say without video.

He usually lead the league in FG% and breaking records with it as well. Fouling, cold arenas, bald balls, hot arenas, no practice time, all affect your shooting percentage. That's not factoring attrition, getting tired and lack of shooters.

[32Dayz]

Wilt scored practically 40% more, per game, than the next player that year. Such separation does not exist in professional sports. Shaq was one of the most dominate players in the game and several players were superior scorers to him in his prime. And Shaq was primarily a scorer. He wasn't the top rebounder (he was getting half the rebounds Wilt was getting) and he wasn't blocking shots like Wilt either (he was probably getting like a third of what Wilt was getting but we don't know this). Jordan was the greatest scorer we seen, and was getting about half that percentage when he tried his hardest. And, btw, Jordan had off nights when he got that 37ppg too.

Was Wilt supposed to be perfect? Like you wouldn't question him if he worked 60ppg and 32 rebounds per game. When does it stop? Maybe you will name me the other players that have the energy to shoot as much as he did and maintain 50 percent and proved they could get 25 rebounds per game, much less 27? Heck show me the player that could do either. Jordan scored 69 points in a game and said Wilt's scoring record is safe - he was referencing the exhaustion factor.

If you put the points and rebounds together as units, Wilt would have a 25% increase on the next great center. Blocks would add to an outrageous separation from the other greatest in the sport. What Wilt averaged for 7 years of 550 games would be on par with best all around game from Shaq, Kareem, Akeem, Moses and Robinson in their careers.

You think Wilt shouldn't have taken short cuts here and there? After all, 80 games at a level nobody could approach for 2 games should account for something? I wonder if a player outside of Wilt ever got 50 and 27 in a game.
But hey, look out for that 13/38 game!!!

Terrible post.

Shaq is one of the 3 best scorers of all time and the 2nd best of this generation after Jordan.
He was always one of the Top 1-3 Rebounders in the game during the majority of his Career and is #3 All-Time when it comes to Playoff Rebounds and #1 All-Time in Playoff 0ffensive-Rebounds also is #3 in Playoff Blocked Shots.

The pace and level of play was different back then I highly doubt Wilt was a much better defender then Shaq certainly not if your referring to simple M2M Defense or shot blocking/protecting the paint/rim.

You think Wilt is a better scorer then Shaq or Jordan?
Very few people share your views or opinions.

Outside of maybe 1-3 Years Wilt never approached Shaqs level of 0ffensive dominance/production in the playoffs and that's with a much bigger size advantage then Shaq had and facing in general smaller defenders and facing far less double/triple teams.

Bolded part is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Prime/Peak Shaq was the greatest scorer in the history of the game with only Jordan and "maybe" Prime Kareem being in that same Tier

You seem to think the Game/Level of competition was the same back then.

It wasn't.

Give Shaq/Jordan or Kareem 40-50 FGA's every night and they will easily be scoring in the 50+ range.

Put Shaq or Kareem or Duncan in a game with 150+ possessions and with a league shooting such low %'s and they also will be close to or above the 20 rebounds per game mark.

If you can really just ignore all that and just say Wilt 50+ points 20+ rebounds was by far the greatest basketball player and Kareem, Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Jordan were literally scrubs compared to him then your simply an idiot.

Wilt is the GOAT scorer of his generation and one of the best ever but All-Time he doesn't crack the top 3
(Jordan, Kareem, Shaq).

Wilt might be the GOAT Rebounder but its impossible to say (its best to just say he is one of the best ever).
(I personally dont mind calling him the best ever in this regard)

Wilt is a GOAT player (in my Top 4-5) but your making him out to be some god and are overrating him.

[Pointguard]

Terrible post.
Shaq is one of the 3 best scorers of all time and the 2nd best of this generation after Jordan.
He was always one of the Top 1-3 Rebounders in the game during the majority of his Career and is #3 All-Time when it comes to Playoff Rebounds and #1 All-Time in Playoff 0ffensive-Rebounds also is #3 in Playoff Blocked Shots.
:lol You are comparing him to Wilt, clown. Allen Iverson was the best scorer after Jordan left and during Shaq's best years. Wilt had a 20 ppg lead on the next scorer (Shaq might have gotten a tenth of that one year) and a 3 or 4 rebound lead on the next rebounder. Shaq never lead the league in both and never lead the league in rebounding. Rodman six inches smaller practically a 100 lbs lighter was getting 4 or 5 rebounds per game more than Shaq for five years straight.



The pace and level of play was different back then I highly doubt Wilt was a much better defender then Shaq certainly not if your referring to simple M2M Defense or shot blocking/protecting the paint/rim.

WOW! What are you doing? Reciting lines from a bimbo convention?



You think Wilt is a better scorer then Shaq or Jordan?
Very few people share your views or opinions.

Over the course of a season, or the course of seven seasons, (take your pick) Wilt maintained a level... untouchable.



Outside of maybe 1-3 Years Wilt never approached Shaqs level of 0ffensive dominance/production in the playoffs and that's with a much bigger size advantage then Shaq had and facing in general smaller defenders and facing far less double/triple teams.
Sorry, Shaq never got much separation from other scorers, despite being in one of the weakest eras of scorers. All things are relative and Shaq didn't get separation.


Bolded part is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Prime/Peak Shaq was the greatest scorer in the history of the game with only Jordan and "maybe" Prime Kareem being in that same Tier
:roll: :roll: :roll: Wow, Bimbo Coles, has spoken. Want to compare scoring titles, scoring records, season records, game records? Please pick a weapon. Its the dumbest thing you heard because you live in a reverse universe.


You seem to think the Game/Level of competition was the same back then.

It wasn't.

Give Shaq/Jordan or Kareem 40-50 FGA's every night and they will easily be scoring in the 50+ range.
Jordan is the energizer bunny of the modern era. He said Wilt's scoring record is safe because he was exhausted after scoring 69 points in one game. Only Jordan has the energy to imagine 40ppg much less 50ppg. Shaq would break down from his own weight. Kareem just didn't have the energy point blank.

The best defense for a center are men of strong will and determination to play the post - if the first defender is weak willed the defense is weak. Back then, men were way more determined, proud and of strong will than they are now - ask your father or grand father. They were allowed to get away with much more back then as well. They fouled Wilt like crazy and they did double him and play him as a team back then as well.



Put Shaq or Kareem or Duncan in a game with 150+ possessions and with a league shooting such low %'s and they also will be close to or above the 20 rebounds per game mark.

If you can really just ignore all that and just say Wilt 50+ points 20+ rebounds was by far the greatest basketball player and Kareem, Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Jordan were literally scrubs compared to him then your simply an idiot.

Study physics and get back at me. You can't go to the moon without fuel. The feat Wilt did is so far beyond your comprehension you're not understanding simple basics. Shaq and Kareem don't have more rebound titles because they didn't have the energy to go after more rebounds. Its that simple. They could never score 40ppg because they didn't have the energy or endurance. You must have energy reserves or it can't be done.

Sorry to break it to you but its a battery problem. Its not the toy itself. Get a Duracell this Holiday season and you'll notice a difference.



Wilt is a GOAT player (in my Top 4-5) but your making him out to be some god and are overrating him.

Re-read the post. I didn't hype him once in that post. I asked questions and demonstrated the differences.

[L.Kizzle]

Hey guys, check out all the back-2-back-2-back games he played. I also founf a 5 games in 5 nights run in their ... stop crying.

[jlauber]

If I remember correctly he shot like 50% that year. Considering his 27 rebounds a game...how much of it had to be quick rebounds and putbacks? we see a lot of that in every game he plays.

Minus his gimme layups/dunks which were no doubt substantial....for him to shoot as low as 50%...he had to be shooting in the 40s if not 30s on shots he just set out to create.

That is hard to accept s the best he could possibly perform. Too many times ive seen him just get up for a posession or two and blow by guys for dunks or power over a guy for a layup. Then go back to fingerrolls and such. And this is later in his career before he stopped shooting jumpers.

He had to be throwing up some garbage(relative to what he could get) to possibly make only half his shots when hes probably getting 10 offensive rebounds a night and 4-5 dunks off them.


Chamberlain was SWARMED and BRUTALIZED that season. Do you honestly believe that opposing teams just LET Wilt shoot????

[QUOTE]What kind of defenses did Wilt face in his NBA career?

http://biography.jrank.org/pages/233...lain-Wilt.html


Quote:
Several of the rules of college basketball had to be changed as a result of Chamberlain's talents, which simply dwarfed those of previous players. Opposing players double-and triple-teamed him and played a slowed-down game rather than attempt to confront Chamberlain's offensive skills head-on. These techniques helped the University of North Carolina defeat Kansas 54-53 in triple overtime in the 1957 championship game.

Such tactics also frustrated the rapidly developing Chamberlain, who startled the basketball world by turning professional rather than returning to Kansas for his senior year. NBA rules forbade him from joining the league until the year in which he would have graduated from college, so Chamberlain played for the razzle-dazzle touring professional team the Harlem Globetrotters during the 1958-59 season. He joined the Philadelphia Warriors in 1959, having already collected a large bonus for signing.

Individual Triumphs in NBA
Chamberlain was an NBA star from the beginning, leading the league in scoring and rebounding, and taking home honors not only for Rookie of the Year but also for Most Valuable Player. Frustrated by defensive tactics similar to those he had faced in college, and by what he considered biased officiating, he threatened to leave the league and return to the Globetrotters in 1960. But he did not follow through on his threat, and soon learned to outmaneuver his tormentors through sheer size, speed, and skill.






http://www.nba.com/home/history/lege...ain/index.html


Quote:
In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."





http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...940232,00.html


Quote:
He stood there, just to the right of the basket, a placid. 7-ft. 1 1/16-in, giant watching impassively as his teammates maneuvered the ball in backcourt. The New York Knickerbockers tried to box him in; they clutched at his jersey, leaned against his chest, stepped on his toes. Then Wilt Chamberlain came alive. With the aplomb of a cop palming an apple, he reached out one massive hand and plucked the basketball out of the air. Spinning violently, he ripped clear of the elbowing surge, took a step toward the basket and jumped. For an instant, he seemed suspended in midair, his head on a level with the 10-ft.-high basket. Slowly, gently, the ball dribbled off his fingertips, through the net, and the San Francisco Warriors went on to a 142-134 victory. New York Coach Ed Donovan sadly shook his head. "He's phenomenal." he sighed. "How does anyone stop Wilt Chamberlain?"




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...940232,00.html


Quote:
Most basketball stars have one great talent: Russell's is defense, Elgin Baylor's is shooting, Bob Cousy's is setting up plays and passing. Chamberlain does almost everything, better than anyone else. He is the pros' fiercest rebounder, and his shooting repertory includes such inimitable specialties as the "Dipper Dunk" (in which he simply stretches up and lays the ball in the basket), the "Stuff Shot" (in which he jumps up and rams the ball through the net from above), and the "Fadeaway Jump"

[jlauber]

This...

[QUOTE]Continuing...

http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-...mmy-4000-words


Quote:
At 7

[jlauber]

Yea.. but please explain to me what was stopping him from shooting a higher %?

It's not like defenses back then were better or more advanced then today's generation (opposite in my opinion) and with the size advantage he had he should have been much more efficient.

I respect your opinion bro but I disagree.

A man with his size advantage/athletic advantage and apparently "high quality" post skills shouldn't be held to such low %'s consistently imo.

Thats not a diss on Wilt either its just my opinion.

Maybe I am wrong and it was simply the style/pace of play that contributed to his lower %'s but its hard to say without video.


Defenses may not have been as sophisticated back then, but there was NO DOUBT that Wilt took a POUNDING from opposing teams. He was SWARMED, and BRUTALIZED. Just read my above posts. NO other player in NBA HISTORY ever had to deal with what Wilt did.

And, I find it laughable that posters point to Wilt's "low efficiency." How about his '62-63 season, then, when he scored 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting, in a league that shot .441? In Hakeem's highest scoring season, when he averaged 27.8 ppg, he shot .517 (in a league that shot .466.) In Robinson's highest scoring season, when he averaged 29.2 ppg, he shot .507, (in a league that shot .466.)

Wilt also averaged 33.5 ppg, on .540 shooting (in a league that shot .433) in 65-66. And, BTW, he also led the league in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and even handed out 5.2 apg. Oh, and he LED his team to the BEST RECORD in the league. Incidently, EVERY one of those stats exceeded Hakeem's BEST single season marks.

Of course, Wilt also had a 24.1 ppg season, on a staggering .683 FG%, in a league that shot .441 (or an outrageous .244 above the league average.) And, again, in the process, he LED the league in rebounding, at 24.2 rpg, as well as finishing THIRD in assists, at 7.8 apg. Oh, and BTW, he LED that team to a 68-13 record, and an overwhelming title.

You want pure efficiency? How about his LAST season, when he set the all-time record of .727, in a league that shot .456, or a LIGHT YEARS record differential of .271.

Most posters here don't realize that when Wilt came into the league, he was shooting a ton of shots from the outside. To shoot .506, .510, .524, and .540, while taking a considerable amount of OUTSIDE shots was a testament to his EFFICIENCY.

BTW, one can only wonder what kind of numbers Wilt would have put up in his 69-70 season, had he not shredded his knee in game nine of that season. He was leading the league at 32.2 ppg, and on 60% shooting (as well as 20 rpg), when he went down. In those nine games, he scored 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43. He also POUNDED Kareem with a 25-25 game, and on 9-14 shooting (while holding Kareem to 23 points and on 9-21 shooting, and outrebounding him, 25-20.) He had a 37 point game against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle, a 38 point game against reigning MVP Wes Unseld, and a 42 point game against Bob Rule, who was a star in the league at the time.

[Brunch@Five]

only 8 games with fewer than 30 FGAs. Astonishing.

[Kblaze8855]

Wilt scored practically 40% more, per game, than the next player that year. Such separation does not exist in professional sports.

And? Its not like its really a totally unheard of rate of scoring. Jordan peaked at over 44ppg spread over the minutes Wilt played that season. And he was a worse scorer when he did it than he was when he scored less in the early 90s. And im sure wilt polished his scoring as well even though he scored less later. he wasnt just incapable. So why am I worried about the number? The numbers on it are suggestive but thats about it. That 50ppg season is a combo of insane attempts, a coach request to score 50 a night even if it meant playing every minute when up or down any margin(you dont think they ever won or lost a blowout? He played every minute anyway), and of course...talent.

But all things considered its not that major. Wilt himself didnt consider it his best basketball. I mean really....if they told Oscar Robertson to take 39 shots...then 45...and 36...and 55...and 42...and 63...he would have been doing epic numbers himself(not that he didnt anyway). IT was just an odd situation. He didnt do that off just being more capable than anyone. He did it off being the only player ever asked to do it and played every minute for the express purpose of scoring a lot no matter how the game is going.

When you think about it....it was almost disrespectful.


Shaq was one of the most dominate players in the game and several players were superior scorers to him in his prime.

Several players scored more than Wilt in his prime too. He was never better than in Philly. His Warrior days were just....something else. Not the best basketball he could play. Just...a strange situation.


And Shaq was primarily a scorer. He wasn't the top rebounder (he was getting half the rebounds Wilt was getting)

By percentage of rebounds available...Shaq as a rookie got the equal of over 23 a game on Wilts 62 team. And thats in more than 10 fewer minutes per game.


and he wasn't blocking shots like Wilt either (he was probably getting like a third of what Wilt was getting but we don't know this).

Im not that worried about blocked shot numbers. If we put a 7'1'' 290 pound rookie Shaq(he was 283 pretty much off his natural build in school...before he was just musclebound) with his 7'8'' wingspan and athletic ability into the 60s hes gonna have some absurd blocked shot numbers too. Not sure it matters.


Jordan was the greatest scorer we seen, and was getting about half that percentage when he tried his hardest. And, btw, Jordan had off nights when he got that 37ppg too.

Everyone has off nights. But to miss 25 or so shots with those physical advantages is hard to do if you are setting out to get and make the easiest shots.


Was Wilt supposed to be perfect? Like you wouldn't question him if he worked 60ppg and 32 rebounds per game. When does it stop? Maybe you will name me the other players that have the energy to shoot as much as he did and maintain 50 percent and proved they could get 25 rebounds per game, much less 27? Heck show me the player that could do either. Jordan scored 69 points in a game and said Wilt's scoring record is safe - he was referencing the exhaustion factor.

**** outta here. Ive never hated on wilt or questioned his ability. Ive defended wilt here more than probably anyone ever. I was probably making a better case in his defense 10 years ago on here than you are now.

But fact is....and he would tell you himself...he did not set out to get the best shots. He wanted to prove he was skilled. he didnt want to play physical. He hadted the perception of him as just bigger and stronger than everyone else so he would fadeaway vs guys he could go by. He was so osessed with big guys not looking like unskilled giants he wrote in his book a view from above that he would let opposing 7 footers dribble when he could steal it.....just so they...and by association he...wouldnt look bad.

Im talking about his approach to the game. I knew everything about his numbers when I was 7.


If you put the points and rebounds together as units, Wilt would have a 25% increase on the next great center. Blocks would add to an outrageous separation from the other greatest in the sport. What Wilt averaged for 7 years of 550 games would be on par with best all around game from Shaq, Kareem, Akeem, Moses and Robinson in their careers.

You think Wilt shouldn't have taken short cuts here and there? After all, 80 games at a level nobody could approach for 2 games should account for something? I wonder if a player outside of Wilt ever got 50 and 27 in a game.
But hey, look out for that 13/38 game!!!

A short cut to rest and holding back due to a mental issue with being too dominant in the eyes of fans he wanted respect from...different things.

And you wonder if anyone did 50/27 in a game/ And you are telling me about the 60s?

I know just off the top of my head that Baylor had like 65/30 in the same game Wilt had 78/40 in this season. And the 78 Wilt scored broke Baylors own NBA record of 71. And the 60/30 wasnt even Baylors only 60/20 game. He had 61 and 20+ rebounds in the finals vs Boston. It was the playoff scoring record pre MJ.

Back in those days when a game might provide 140 missed shots a great player could go grab 30+ of them and not even be news worthy.

If sure you could look at Baylor, Pettit, Oscar, Russell, or Walt Bellamys game logs from 1962 it would be pretty crazy too.

Nobody is just....as good as the numbers being put up back then. And while they had great stamina to put them up...im not gonna just assume Elgin Baylor is more well conditioned than Jordan, Iverson, Lebron, KG, and Davd Robinson types.

The game simply changed. A lot.

[jlauber]

I remember that Wilt considered his last game against Chicago Packers as his best of the year. I found an article about how observers count more than 20 blocks of Wilt in that game. According to his coach it was more than 20.
That's why I was wondering if this is the game, which Harvey Pollack mentioned of Wilt having 25 blocks. It is not clear however, because I have the impression that Wilt do this while in Sixers uniform. Also in that season Wilt blocked the first nine shot attempts of Walt Bellamy (holding him to 14 points) in their first meeting.

Great post. I have always admired your posting, BTW. You are one of a handful of posters here who actually has RESEARCHED Chamberlain's career.

Incidently, while Russell did a decent job of limiting Wilt's production throughout their careers, Wilt STILL had MANY HUGE games against him. He had ENTIRE SEASONS, including the playoffs, of 36.8 and 29.1 rpg, covering 18 games in his ROOKIE season. Incidently, in ten of those regular season H2H games (we don't have the 11th game), Chamberlain shot .465 against Russell (and a career low .461 overall), while Russell shot .398 against Wilt (in a his career best season of .467.)

In his 60-61 season, Chamberlain averaged 35.5 ppg, and 31.4 rpg in 13 H2H games against Russell (imagine that... a 36-31 SEASON!) In his historic 61-62 season, and including the playoffs, covering 17 H2H games, Chamberlain averaged 37.2 ppg and 28.1 rpg, and on a combined .469 FG% (in a league that shot .426.) BTW, in the playoffs, Wilt held Russell to .420 shooting. In his 62-63 season, and covering nine H2H games, Wilt averaged 38.1 ppg (to Russell's 14.6 ppg), while outrebounding Russell, per game, 28.9 rpg to Russell's 27.8 rpg.

In their 63-64 seasons, including the playoffs, Wilt averaged 31.6 ppg and 29.4 rpg against Russell. In their five H2H games in the Finals, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to Russell's 11.2 ppg, and outrebounded Russell, per game, 27.6 rpg to Russell's 25.2 rpg. Wilt also shot .517 against Russell in that series, and while we don't have Russell's FG% from that series, he shot .356 overall in that post-season, and five of his ten post-season games were against Wilt.

In the 64-65 season, covering their 18 H2H games (including the post-season), Wilt averaged 27.2 ppg and 28.4 rpg ( to Russell's 13.8 ppg and 23.9 rpg.) Interesting too, was their seven playoff games that season. Wilt took his rag-tag 40-40 Sixer team to a game seven, one point loss against Russell's 62-18 Celtics. In that series, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg, and outrebounded Russell, by a 31.6 rpg to 25.3 rpg margin, per game. I don't have Wilt's FG% in those seven games (although in game seven he shot 12-15 from the field), but Russell shot .451 against Wilt (BTW, Russell would go on to average 18 ppg, 29 rpg, and shoot .702 against the Lakers in the Finals.)

In the 65-66 season, in their 15 H2H games, and including the playoffs, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 26.3 ppg to 11.7 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 28.5 rpg to 22.4 rpg. In their five playoff H2H's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 28.0 ppg to 14.0 ppg, and out rebounded Russell, per game, 30.2 rpg to 26.2 rpg. I don't have Russell's FG% in that series, but Chamberlain shot .509 against him.

In the 66-67 season, covering 14 H2H games against Russell, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 20.8 ppg to 11.9 ppg, and outrebounded Russell, per game, 28.6 rpg to Russell's 21.9 rpg. During the regular season, covering nine H2H games, Wilt averaged 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .549 against Russell. Then, in their five H2H's in the ECF's, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, by a staggering 32.0 rpg top 23.4 rpg; he outassisted Russell, per game, 10.0 apg, to 6.0 apg; and he outshot Russell by an astonishing .556 to .358 margin.

Chamberlain had four regular seasons of 38 ppg, 38 ppg, 38 ppg 36 ppg against Russell. Overall, Chamberlain had 24 games of 40+ points against Russell, including FIVE of 50+, and a high game of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) He also had a 7-1 edge in 40+ rebound games (and Russell's one game was an even 40) with a high game of 55 (while outrebounding Russell, 55-19), and a playoff record of 41 (outrebounding Russell, 41-29.) Even more remarkable, was the fact that Wilt held a 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound H2H's.

[jlauber]

Hey guys, check out all the back-2-back-2-back games he played. I also founf a 5 games in 5 nights run in their ... stop crying.

Wilt played in a TON of B2B's that season, including one stretch of SIX three-in-a-rows, another three separate stretches of FOUR-in-a-rows, and that incredible separate streak of FIVE games in FIVE nights (and NONE of them were home B2B's either.)

He played all but EIGHT MINUTES of the ENTIRE season.

And not only did he play nearly every minute of that season, he played in a league that did not uniform balls; that had cold and even breezy venues; and with far inferior traveling and medical conditions that exist in today's NBA.

There was a reason that FG%'s were lower in the early 60's...and the above pretty much covers it. When players like West are shooting .419 and .445; Baylor at .401; and Havlicek at .399...that gives you an idea of the CONDITIONS of that time.

[jlauber]

And? Its not like its really a totally unheard of rate of scoring. Jordan peaked at over 44ppg spread over the minutes Wilt played that season. And he was a worse scorer when he did it than he was when he scored less in the early 90s. And im sure wilt polished his scoring as well even though he scored less later. he wasnt just incapable. So why am I worried about the number? The numbers on it are suggestive but thats about it. That 50ppg season is a combo of insane attempts, a coach request to score 50 a night even if it meant playing every minute when up or down any margin(you dont think they ever won or lost a blowout? He played every minute anyway), and of course...talent.

But all things considered its not that major. Wilt himself didnt consider it his best basketball. I mean really....if they told Oscar Robertson to take 39 shots...then 45...and 36...and 55...and 42...and 63...he would have been doing epic numbers himself(not that he didnt anyway). IT was just an odd situation. He didnt do that off just being more capable than anyone. He did it off being the only player ever asked to do it and played every minute for the express purpose of scoring a lot no matter how the game is going.

When you think about it....it was almost disrespectful.



Several players scored more than Wilt in his prime too. He was never better than in Philly. His Warrior days were just....something else. Not the best basketball he could play. Just...a strange situation.



By percentage of rebounds available...Shaq as a rookie got the equal of over 23 a game on Wilts 62 team. And thats in more than 10 fewer minutes per game.



Im not that worried about blocked shot numbers. If we put a 7'1'' 290 pound rookie Shaq(he was 283 pretty much off his natural build in school...before he was just musclebound) with his 7'8'' wingspan and athletic ability into the 60s hes gonna have some absurd blocked shot numbers too. Not sure it matters.



Everyone has off nights. But to miss 25 or so shots with those physical advantages is hard to do if you are setting out to get and make the easiest shots.



**** outta here. Ive never hated on wilt or questioned his ability. Ive defended wilt here more than probably anyone ever. I was probably making a better case in his defense 10 years ago on here than you are now.

But fact is....and he would tell you himself...he did not set out to get the best shots. He wanted to prove he was skilled. he didnt want to play physical. He hadted the perception of him as just bigger and stronger than everyone else so he would fadeaway vs guys he could go by. He was so osessed with big guys not looking like unskilled giants he wrote in his book a view from above that he would let opposing 7 footers dribble when he could steal it.....just so they...and by association he...wouldnt look bad.

Im talking about his approach to the game. I knew everything about his numbers when I was 7.



A short cut to rest and holding back due to a mental issue with being too dominant in the eyes of fans he wanted respect from...different things.

And you wonder if anyone did 50/27 in a game/ And you are telling me about the 60s?

I know just off the top of my head that Baylor had like 65/30 in the same game Wilt had 78/40 in this season. And the 78 Wilt scored broke Baylors own NBA record of 71. And the 60/30 wasnt even Baylors only 60/20 game. He had 61 and 20+ rebounds in the finals vs Boston. It was the playoff scoring record pre MJ.

Back in those days when a game might provide 140 missed shots a great player could go grab 30+ of them and not even be news worthy.

If sure you could look at Baylor, Pettit, Oscar, Russell, or Walt Bellamys game logs from 1962 it would be pretty crazy too.

Nobody is just....as good as the numbers being put up back then. And while they had great stamina to put them up...im not gonna just assume Elgin Baylor is more well conditioned than Jordan, Iverson, Lebron, KG, and Davd Robinson types.

The game simply changed. A lot.


There have been 131 30-30 games in NBA HISTORY. The entire NBA COMBINED, in it's entire HISTORY, has 28. Wilt had 103. By the way, Kareem played four seasons in the same NBA with Wilt. Late in Wilt's career, in his 71-72, Chamberlain hung TWO 30-30 games (including a 31-32 game against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier.) Which is interesting, because Kareem played 20 seasons, and only had ONE 30-30 game in his ENTIRE CAREER.

How about 40-30 games? The ENTIRE NBA, in it's entire HISTORY, has SIX...COMBINED. How about Wilt? 55 (and 17 just against Russell alone.)

How about 50-30 games? Wilt had 22 (as well as 50-35 game against Russell in the '60 ECF's)...the rest of the ENTIRE NBA, 2...COMBINED!

60-30 games? The rest of the NBA...two...COMBINED. Wilt? SEVEN by himself.

40-40 games? Wilt with EIGHT (including a 44-42 game against Russell)...and the rest of the NBA? ZERO.

50-40 games? Chamberlain with FOUR...and you guess it, the rest of the NBA...ZERO.

How about 50 point games? Wilt with 122, and his nearest competitor, MJ, with 39.

How about 60+ point games. The rest of the NBA, in it's entire history...30. Wilt? 32 (including three of the four highest FG%'s games...and THE highest game of 29-35 or .829.) And he also had a 62 point game against Russell, and on 27-45 shooting. And he had THREE 60+ point games just against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy.

How about 70+ point games. The rest of the NBA, combined...FOUR. Chamberlain? SIX, including a 73-36 game against HOFer Bellamy.

40+ rebound games? Chamberlain with 15...the rest of the NBA combined... 13. Included in those games were a game in which Wilt outrebounded Russell, 55-19, and a playoff game in which he outrebounded Russell, 41-29.

"Perfect games?" Chamberlain has the THREE highest in NBA history (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18). BTW, Wilt also holds the record of 35 straight made FGAs.

How about a 20-20-20 game? Yep, ONLY Wilt, (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists.) Hell, Wilt even had a 53 point, 32 rebound, 14 assist game (and on 24-29 shooting from the field.) He also had a 24-32-13-12 (on 9-13 shooting) against Russell in the '67 ECF's.

[Kblaze8855]

Feel free to give me new information any time now. I have zero interest in your notepad copy/paste posts you make 8 times a week. You have been making them for a year or two with very little changes. Am I really to read it again...ignore that it contains no information I have not had for years before you got here...and respond to it as if you arent just gonna go back into your prewritten list of irrelevant trivia to repost as if you are talking to someone who needs to be taught anything by you?

[millwad]

And? Its not like its really a totally unheard of rate of scoring. Jordan peaked at over 44ppg spread over the minutes Wilt played that season. And he was a worse scorer when he did it than he was when he scored less in the early 90s. And im sure wilt polished his scoring as well even though he scored less later. he wasnt just incapable. So why am I worried about the number? The numbers on it are suggestive but thats about it. That 50ppg season is a combo of insane attempts, a coach request to score 50 a night even if it meant playing every minute when up or down any margin(you dont think they ever won or lost a blowout? He played every minute anyway), and of course...talent.

But all things considered its not that major. Wilt himself didnt consider it his best basketball. I mean really....if they told Oscar Robertson to take 39 shots...then 45...and 36...and 55...and 42...and 63...he would have been doing epic numbers himself(not that he didnt anyway). IT was just an odd situation. He didnt do that off just being more capable than anyone. He did it off being the only player ever asked to do it and played every minute for the express purpose of scoring a lot no matter how the game is going.

When you think about it....it was almost disrespectful.



Several players scored more than Wilt in his prime too. He was never better than in Philly. His Warrior days were just....something else. Not the best basketball he could play. Just...a strange situation.



By percentage of rebounds available...Shaq as a rookie got the equal of over 23 a game on Wilts 62 team. And thats in more than 10 fewer minutes per game.



Im not that worried about blocked shot numbers. If we put a 7'1'' 290 pound rookie Shaq(he was 283 pretty much off his natural build in school...before he was just musclebound) with his 7'8'' wingspan and athletic ability into the 60s hes gonna have some absurd blocked shot numbers too. Not sure it matters.



Everyone has off nights. But to miss 25 or so shots with those physical advantages is hard to do if you are setting out to get and make the easiest shots.



**** outta here. Ive never hated on wilt or questioned his ability. Ive defended wilt here more than probably anyone ever. I was probably making a better case in his defense 10 years ago on here than you are now.

But fact is....and he would tell you himself...he did not set out to get the best shots. He wanted to prove he was skilled. he didnt want to play physical. He hadted the perception of him as just bigger and stronger than everyone else so he would fadeaway vs guys he could go by. He was so osessed with big guys not looking like unskilled giants he wrote in his book a view from above that he would let opposing 7 footers dribble when he could steal it.....just so they...and by association he...wouldnt look bad.

Im talking about his approach to the game. I knew everything about his numbers when I was 7.



A short cut to rest and holding back due to a mental issue with being too dominant in the eyes of fans he wanted respect from...different things.

And you wonder if anyone did 50/27 in a game/ And you are telling me about the 60s?

I know just off the top of my head that Baylor had like 65/30 in the same game Wilt had 78/40 in this season. And the 78 Wilt scored broke Baylors own NBA record of 71. And the 60/30 wasnt even Baylors only 60/20 game. He had 61 and 20+ rebounds in the finals vs Boston. It was the playoff scoring record pre MJ.

Back in those days when a game might provide 140 missed shots a great player could go grab 30+ of them and not even be news worthy.

If sure you could look at Baylor, Pettit, Oscar, Russell, or Walt Bellamys game logs from 1962 it would be pretty crazy too.

Nobody is just....as good as the numbers being put up back then. And while they had great stamina to put them up...im not gonna just assume Elgin Baylor is more well conditioned than Jordan, Iverson, Lebron, KG, and Davd Robinson types.

The game simply changed. A lot.

Excellent post.

[jlauber]

Feel free to give me new information any time now. I have zero interest in your notepad copy/paste posts you make 8 times a week. You have been making them for a year or two with very little changes. Am I really to read it again...ignore that it contains no information I have not had for years before you got here...and respond to it as if you arent just gonna go back into your prewritten list of irrelevant trivia to repost as if you are talking to someone who needs to be taught anything by you?

Merely REFUTING your pointless arguments.

Wilt DOMINATED his peers like no one else in NBA history.

You continually bring up the "inflated 60's", which, in reality were SLIGHTLY higher than even TODAY's NBA. In Wilt's '62 season, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Last year the NBA averaged 99.6 ppg. In MJ's highest scoring season, it was 109.9 ppg (in a league that shot .480 ...compared to Wilt's .426 season in '62.)

Yes, the rebounding numbers of the early 60's were "inflated." Today's NBA is at about 70% of Wilt's '61 season. So, using simple math, Wilt would be at around 18 rpg in TODAY's NBA.

But, let's forget about the total numbers, and let's examine the DOMINATION instead. Wilt won ELEVEN rebounding titles in his 14 seasons (and he would surely have won it in '70 had he not been injured early on.)

He won two rebounding titles by margins of +3.2 rpg, +3.3 rpg, and even +4.8 rpg over his nearest competitor's.

How about this? Bill Russell is widely regarded as the second greatest rebounder of all-time. And yet, Wilt outrebounded him by a 92-42-8 margin in their 142 H2H games. He outrebounded Russell by an eye-popping FIVE rpg over the course of their ENTIRE H2H career (28.7 to 23.7 rpg.)

He outrebounded Russell, H2H, in EVERY one of their TEN seasons in the league together. He outrebounded Russell in ALL EIGHT of their H2H post-seasons. He had ENTIRE SEASONS in which he just CRUSHED Russell by as much as FIVE per game. ENTIRE POST-SEASONS where he outrebounded Russell by as much as NINE rpg.

Single games against Russell? I have already mentioned the game in which he outrebounded him by an incredible 55-19 margin (I have often wondered what Chamberlain's Rebound PERCENTAGE was in that game!) And how about just these three games alone, in the '67 ECF's, and against Russell? In game one he outrebounded Russell, 32-15, AND, those 32 rebounds came in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 120 available rebounds (27%.) In the clinching game five win, Wilt overwhelmed Russell by a 36-21 margin, and those 36 rebounds came in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 128 rebounds (28%.) Then, in game three, Wilt outrebounded Russell, with a playoff record, 41-29, in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 134 available rebounds...or 30% of them!

How about these H2H rebounding games against Russell?

35-13 (in a game in which Wilt outscored Russell, 45-15.)
43-29 (in a game in which Wilt outscored Russell, 44-15.)
55-19 (in a game in which he outscored Russell, 34-18.)
38-20 (Wilt also outscored Russell in that game, 34-17.)
37-20 (In a playoff game in which he outscored Russell, 42-9.)
38-19 (In a Finals game in which he outscored Russell, 27-8.)
43-26 (In a game in which he outscored Russell, 27-13.)
39-16 (outscoring Russell in the process, 30-12.)
40-17 (outscoring Russell, 31-11.)
42-25 (outscoring Russell, 37-14.)
36-20 (with a 27-13 scoring margin.)
30-20 (with a 32-8 scoring edge.)
32-18 (outscoring Russell 25-13.)
31-19
32-14 ( and a 24-11 scoring edge.)
32-15 (playoff game in which he outscored Russell, 24-20.)
41-29 (playoff game in which he outscored Russell, 20-10.)
36-21 (clinching playoff game win and with a 29-4 scoring edge.)

Four straight games in the 67-68 season in which he outrebounded Russell by these margins:

27-16, 33-19, 23-12, and 27-8 (outscoring Russell, 31-3 in the process.)

And, in the 68-69 season (Russell's final season) Wilt had one regular season game in which he outrebounded Russell, 42-18, and a Finals game in which he outrebounded Russell, 31-13.


We all KNOW by now that Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-season series (EIGHT against Russell, FOUR against Lucas, THREE against Reed, THREE against Thurmond, TWO against Kareem, TWO against Bellamy, and one against Embry...ALL in the HOF...and THREE against Kerr, and another TWO against Beaty...BOTH multiple season All-Stars.)

He pounded Thurmond by margins of 28.5 to 26.7; 23.5 to 19.5; and 23.6 to 17.2; as well as outshooting Nate in those three series by margins of .560 to .343, .500 to .392, and .550 to .398.

I could go on, but as you can CLEARLY see, Chamberlain MURDERED his peers in the rebounding department

Scoring? Chamberlain had 24 games of 40+ points against Russell, with FIVE of 50+, and even a 62 point game. He also had an entire season of 40 ppg against HOFer Willis Reed, as well as THREE games of 50+ and a HIGH of 58. He had an entire season of 55 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, as well as THREE games of 60+ (and a HIGH game of 73 to go along with his 36 rebounds.) Hell, he had multiple 30+ games against Thurmond in there dozen or so games in Wilt's "scoring" prime (as well as a 30 point game in the '67 season, in which Wilt dumped 24 second half points on Nate.) Included in those games, was a game in which he outscored Nate, 45-13...which is undoubtably the most points Thurmond ever allowed in a game. And keep in mind that Kareem faced Thurmond in 50+ H2H games, and his HIGH game was only 34. Not only that, but Wilt had nearly as many 30+ point games against Thurmond in those handful of games in his "scoring prime" as Kareem did in his 50+ H2H games against Nate.

[Kblaze8855]

3 things...

1. Caps lock doesnt really apply emphasis when you use it every 6th word.

2. You refute nothing by giving me facts which are irrelevant. Telling me wilt got a lot of rebounds or more than others...as if it has anything to do with anything or as if I said he didnt. Or that he scored a lot...in topic listing the highest scoring season in basketball history. When this issue is how little I care what his numbers are compared to what he was doing to attain them...his numbers have no ability to make a point. but you dont know anything else. So you really have nothing to add at all.

3. I am not an uninformed 17 year old reading Wilts numbers and being floored.

I know everything that you have ever shown on the matter. You have nothing to add that I have any interest in because im not convinced you actually know anything abut the subject I dont. Not like Wilts 62 season was nationally televised. I know basketball fans old enough to have watched it in their 20s and even they only remember radio and a few playoff games.

You have no information for me at all. You have nothing but numbers, googled opinions of others which ive already read that you repost daily, and an infatuation that you suddenly developed for Wilt after you hated on 60s players a year or two earlier.

For these 3 reasons I have no reason to speak to you again on the matter.

I'll check back on you in a few months to see if you have updated your notepad file with new 3rd hand facts that likely wont be reelvant to the matter being discussed at the time.

[jlauber]

2 things...

1. Caps lock doesnt really apply emphasis when you use it every 6th word.

2. You refute nothing by giving me facts which are irrelevant. Telling me wilt got a lot of rebounds or more than others...as if it has anything to do with anything or as if I said he didnt. Or that he scored a lot...in topic listing the highest scoring season in basketball history. When this issue is how little I care what his numbers are compared to what he was doing to attain them...his numbers have no ability to make a point. but you dont know anything else. So you really have nothing to add at all.

How about this?

CHAMBERLAIN AVERAGED 50.4 PPG THAT SEASON, AND HIS NEAREST FULL TIME COMPETITOR WAS AT 31.6 PPG...OR A +18.8 SCORING MARGIN. HE FOLLOWED THAT UP WITH A 44.8 PPG SEASON, IN WHICH HIS NEAREST COMPETITOR WAS AT 34.0 PPG...OR A +10.8 SCORING MARGIN.

GIVE ME A LIST OF THE OTHER SCORING LEADERS WHO HAD A HIGHER MARGIN.

[Pointguard]

And? Its not like its really a totally unheard of rate of scoring. Jordan peaked at over 44ppg spread over the minutes Wilt played that season. And he was a worse scorer when he did it than he was when he scored less in the early 90s. And im sure wilt polished his scoring as well even though he scored less later. he wasnt just incapable. So why am I worried about the number? The numbers on it are suggestive but thats about it. That 50ppg season is a combo of insane attempts, a coach request to score 50 a night even if it meant playing every minute when up or down any margin(you dont think they ever won or lost a blowout? He played every minute anyway), and of course...talent.

You missed the two most important aspects there K. Endurance and Will Power. Talent never seems to surpass 35ppg. At 31ppg great scorers seem to level off consistently for 50 years. Once a player averaged more than that you see other qualities involved. The pace of the game helped Wilt.



IT was just an odd situation. He didnt do that off just being more capable than anyone. He did it off being the only player ever asked to do it and played every minute for the express purpose of scoring a lot no matter how the game is going.

This is the weirdest thing I find about the whole Wilt thing. Wilt's activity level doesn't even get credit. In a much faster paced game he was relentless, and went after all he could. He was like Moses Malone but more skilled. Big men rarely go all out and hustle like that. KG, Moses and Wilt rarely get play for being flat just better effort players. Rodman went after every rebound because he was robust with energy and had the endurance to do so.



By percentage of rebounds available...Shaq as a rookie got the equal of over 23 a game on Wilts 62 team. And thats in more than 10 fewer minutes per game.

It doesn't transfer like that. To get 27 rebounds and shoot 30 times it automatically means you jumped at least 70 times a game. I can't say that every center is down for that, or really could. Shaq was never the hungriest player for rebounds when he played, and never showed a supreme level with his peers. You need great energy to be 4 rebounds above the next player. Nature shows that the greats in the game have a common threshold: 31ppg and 15 rebs are the territory of those coming with extra effort.


Im not that worried about blocked shot numbers. If we put a 7'1'' 290 pound rookie Shaq(he was 283 pretty much off his natural build in school...before he was just musclebound) with his 7'8'' wingspan and athletic ability into the 60s hes gonna have some absurd blocked shot numbers too. Not sure it matters.
Once again it doesn't transfer that easy. They didn't stretch back then. No way could Shaq last jumping 70/80 times a game. Young Shaq was a marvel of an athlete but he wasn't the iron man Wilt was by any measure of the stick. I think he was just a little below average in durability in his younger years. Most of the time the games in Wilt's day were played in extra cold arenas that are like unheated college gyms today.



Everyone has off nights. But to miss 25 or so shots with those physical advantages is hard to do if you are setting out to get and make the easiest shots.
Super highs guarantee a low when you are doing something so far above any previous example. Human nature.




**** outta here. Ive never hated on wilt or questioned his ability. Ive defended wilt here more than probably anyone ever. I was probably making a better case in his defense 10 years ago on here than you are now.

K, if I show you the most phenomenal feat in the sport, and you look for the flaw in one game out of 80, you can't pretend like you playing a fair hand. Or that I'm coming at you unjustly because I call you out on it. You know this has been your calling card as of late... I don't know your past of three years ago. I respect your work and contribution, for sure, and give you props appropriately. We differ here.



But fact is....and he would tell you himself...he did not set out to get the best shots. He wanted to prove he was skilled. he didnt want to play physical. He hadted the perception of him as just bigger and stronger than everyone else so he would fadeaway vs guys he could go by. He was so osessed with big guys not looking like unskilled giants he wrote in his book a view from above that he would let opposing 7 footers dribble when he could steal it.....just so they...and by association he...wouldnt look bad.

Im talking about his approach to the game. I knew everything about his numbers when I was 7.
You know as well as I know that if Wilt played the power game they would have snatched it from him. It wasn't like Wilt didn't play it at times anyway but legislating against Wilt was the NBA's past time. There are comments of how the game was called differently for Wilt as it was. If you watched Lonnie Shelton, Darryl Dawkins and Artest Gilmore there is no indication that they would let Shaq do what he did in the 90's plus. And they hated Wilt so I tend to think he would go out like Chocolate Thunder.



And you wonder if anyone did 50/27 in a game/ And you are telling me about the 60s?
Ha, I overlooked that game cause Wilt overshadowed him. But lets not act like it happened with frequency or it's the standard on understanding the 60's cause... once is the exception. We are comparing a year's average to solo games, which is a totally bizarre premise to begin with. Wilt's season is so crazy that you have to compare it to any players best three games in their career. And if they counted blocks and steals it would be even more of a landslide for Wilt. And you can throw Baylor in there two.



If sure you could look at Baylor, Pettit, Oscar, Russell, or Walt Bellamys game logs from 1962 it would be pretty crazy too.

Anybody can have a good game or a bad game. But what's posted is a season log. And not one of those listed above has a season remotely close to Chamberlain's.


Nobody is just....as good as the numbers being put up back then. And while they had great stamina to put them up...im not gonna just assume Elgin Baylor is more well conditioned than Jordan, Iverson, Lebron, KG, and Davd Robinson types.
The game simply changed. A lot.
I agree. Elgin played part time that year so I don't consider his a feat of endurance, well basketball endurance that year. I respect Baylor's activity level big time tho. But if you look at his career, his rebounds went down sharply after his fourth year because he lost the gusto to pursue them. When Wilt was in his mid 30's he would out rebound an energized Kareem who was at his peak in rebounding.

[Pointguard]

"Perfect games?" Chamberlain has the THREE highest in NBA history (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18). BTW, Wilt also holds the record of 35 straight made FGAs.

That scrub, and to think that he did it with skill instead of power.

[Pointguard]

There have been 131 30-30 games in NBA HISTORY. The entire NBA COMBINED, in it's entire HISTORY, has 28. Wilt had 103. By the way, Kareem played four seasons in the same NBA with Wilt. Late in Wilt's career, in his 71-72, Chamberlain hung TWO 30-30 games (including a 31-32 game against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier.) Which is interesting, because Kareem played 20 seasons, and only had ONE 30-30 game in his ENTIRE CAREER.

How about 40-30 games? The ENTIRE NBA, in it's entire HISTORY, has SIX...COMBINED. How about Wilt? 55 (and 17 just against Russell alone.)

How about 50-30 games? Wilt had 22 (as well as 50-35 game against Russell in the '60 ECF's)...the rest of the ENTIRE NBA, 2...COMBINED!

60-30 games? The rest of the NBA...two...COMBINED. Wilt? SEVEN by himself.

40-40 games? Wilt with EIGHT (including a 44-42 game against Russell)...and the rest of the NBA? ZERO.

50-40 games? Chamberlain with FOUR...and you guess it, the rest of the NBA...ZERO.

How about 50 point games? Wilt with 122, and his nearest competitor, MJ, with 39.

How about 60+ point games. The rest of the NBA, in it's entire history...30. Wilt? 32 (including three of the four highest FG%'s games...and THE highest game of 29-35 or .829.) And he also had a 62 point game against Russell, and on 27-45 shooting. And he had THREE 60+ point games just against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy.

How about 70+ point games. The rest of the NBA, combined...FOUR. Chamberlain? SIX, including a 73-36 game against HOFer Bellamy.

40+ rebound games? Chamberlain with 15...the rest of the NBA combined... 13. Included in those games were a game in which Wilt outrebounded Russell, 55-19, and a playoff game in which he outrebounded Russell, 41-29.

"Perfect games?" Chamberlain has the THREE highest in NBA history (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18). BTW, Wilt also holds the record of 35 straight made FGAs.

How about a 20-20-20 game? Yep, ONLY Wilt, (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists.) Hell, Wilt even had a 53 point, 32 rebound, 14 assist game (and on 24-29 shooting from the field.) He also had a 24-32-13-12 (on 9-13 shooting) against Russell in the '67 ECF's.
Thanks JL, you supplemented my argument well with this post. I see somebody else got a 50/30 game.

If you wanted a real comparison you would have to take Wilt's best seven year averages and compare it to the top 10 centers best 10 games ever and do it over 50 times. Its mind boggling. In no mathematical world would 550 samples be of a higher average than ten of the best of another sample would the science be considered equal. Sure factors change but they don't change ThaT dam much.

[Horatio33]

If Wilt was averaging 48.5 minutes a game, How many blowouts was he involved in that that he was stat padding? I'm sure every game wasn't a last second buzzer beater. So he stayed in games to get his average up.

Also Kblaze came with more hits than the Braves and the Yankees.

[Asukal]

These Wilt stans are disgusting. You guys are much older than any other stans, show some class ffs. Wilt's 50ppg season is amazing and all but it has its downsides as well so please stop with the overrating bs. Jlauber you yourself admitted that Wilt wouldn't be able to score 50ppg in a season if he played today. :facepalm

[Pointguard]

These Wilt stans are disgusting. You guys are much older than any other stans, show some class ffs. Wilt's 50ppg season is amazing and all but it has its downsides as well so please stop with the overrating bs. Jlauber you yourself admitted that Wilt wouldn't be able to score 50ppg in a season if he played today. :facepalm

Where is the over-rating??? Nobody is going to respect you if you just rant and don't back yourself up. If you have a problem with somebody quote them and address it.

[Sarcastic]

First 3 games, back to back to back. 48-57-53 :bowdown:

His low game for the year was 26. :eek:

[Pointguard]

If Wilt was averaging 48.5 minutes a game, How many blowouts was he involved in that that he was stat padding? I'm sure every game wasn't a last second buzzer beater. So he stayed in games to get his average up.

Also Kblaze came with more hits than the Braves and the Yankees.
Every player has a different level of how many minutes they can play. No??? Is there a rule that says you must sit down and take rest? Wilt didn't like to come of the game. Its very different if Wilt was obviously tired at the end but his best week happened the second to last week in the year.

[RRR3]

Terrible post.

Shaq is one of the 3 best scorers of all time and the 2nd best of this generation after Jordan.
He was always one of the Top 1-3 Rebounders in the game during the majority of his Career and is #3 All-Time when it comes to Playoff Rebounds and #1 All-Time in Playoff 0ffensive-Rebounds also is #3 in Playoff Blocked Shots.

The pace and level of play was different back then I highly doubt Wilt was a much better defender then Shaq certainly not if your referring to simple M2M Defense or shot blocking/protecting the paint/rim.

You think Wilt is a better scorer then Shaq or Jordan?
Very few people share your views or opinions.

Outside of maybe 1-3 Years Wilt never approached Shaqs level of 0ffensive dominance/production in the playoffs and that's with a much bigger size advantage then Shaq had and facing in general smaller defenders and facing far less double/triple teams.

Bolded part is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Prime/Peak Shaq was the greatest scorer in the history of the game with only Jordan and "maybe" Prime Kareem being in that same Tier

You seem to think the Game/Level of competition was the same back then.

It wasn't.

Give Shaq/Jordan or Kareem 40-50 FGA's every night and they will easily be scoring in the 50+ range.

Put Shaq or Kareem or Duncan in a game with 150+ possessions and with a league shooting such low %'s and they also will be close to or above the 20 rebounds per game mark.

If you can really just ignore all that and just say Wilt 50+ points 20+ rebounds was by far the greatest basketball player and Kareem, Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Jordan were literally scrubs compared to him then your simply an idiot.

Wilt is the GOAT scorer of his generation and one of the best ever but All-Time he doesn't crack the top 3
(Jordan, Kareem, Shaq).

Wilt might be the GOAT Rebounder but its impossible to say (its best to just say he is one of the best ever).
(I personally dont mind calling him the best ever in this regard)

Wilt is a GOAT player (in my Top 4-5) but your making him out to be some god and are overrating him.
Shaq is not a top 3 scorer ever.:facepalm

[bwink23]

if judging a BLOWOUT win or loss by 15 or more points....then in the 1961-1962 season during Wilt's 50.4ppg year...the Warriors had 15 games WON by blowout, and loss 10 games by blowout for a total of 25. It's not a good measure though...cuz not every point is gonna be a STAT PADDING point, only those coming when the fate of the game is already decided. If i had to take an educated guess, the difference in the outcome of point totals in that season, would be MINIMAL.

[BlackJoker23]

prime spud webb=lock for 20 boards in a quarter in that era

[jlauber]

if judging a BLOWOUT win or loss by 15 or more points....then in the 1961-1962 season during Wilt's 50.4ppg year...the Warriors had 15 games WON by blowout, and loss 10 games by blowout for a total of 25. It's not a good measure though...cuz not every point is gonna be a STAT PADDING point, only those coming when the fate of the game is already decided. If i had to take an educated guess, the difference in the outcome of point totals in that season, would be MINIMAL.

First of all, Wilt played nearly every minute of every game his ENTIRE career. In his LAST season, he averaged 43.2 mpg, and then averaged 47.1 mpg in his 17 post-season games.

And, how about his 62-63 season, then, when he played with arguably the worst roster in NBA history? He played 47.6 mpg, and averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting (while his teammates collectively shot .412...and the WORST team in the league shot .427.) His Warriors were involved in only EIGHT games of 20+ point margins (going 4-4), and they lost 35 games by single digits. Wilt and inept cast of clowns faced the Celtics, and their NINE HOFers in nine games. SIX of those games were decided by single digits, and Wilt's team actually won a game in a blowout. Over the course of those nine games, Wilt averaged 38.1 ppg and 28.9 rpg, including a 50 point game against Russell.

BTW, let's compare Wilt's 62-63 season with his 65-66 season. In that 62-63 season, all Wilt did was LEAD the league in FIFTEEN of the total of 22 statistical categories (and had the league kept stats like blocked shots, offensive and defensive rebounds, and rebounding percentage, he probably would have led the league in those categories, as well.) Included in those league-leading categories were scoring, and by a HUGE margin (44.8 ppg to runner-up Baylor's 34.0 ppg); rebounding, at 24.3 rpg; and he even set a then-record for FG% of .528. He also LED the league, and by a wide margin, in WIN SHARES. And his PER rating of 31.8 is the all-time record. Despite that ONE-MAN effort, his team lost so many close games, and only went 31-49.

Ok, so what happened in his 65-66 season? He LED the NBA in 13 of their 23 statistical categories (and once again, had the NBA officially kept track of blocks, and had multiple rebounding stats, he would surely have led in even more.) Again, he played 47.3 mpg, and in the process, he LED the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; and set a then-record FG% mark of .540. He also ran away with the WIN SHARES and PER marks that season. Oh, and BTW, his TEAM had the BEST RECORD in the league, too.

So what changed from '63 to '66? Wilt played basically the same way in BOTH seasons. BUT, when he was given a decent supporting cast, he LED his team to the BEST RECORD in the league. BTW, he would LEAD them to a 68-13 mark the very next season, and a dominating world title.

But, yes, Wilt was a "stats-padder." :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



First 3 games, back to back to back. 48-57-53



Chamberlain had TWO separate streaks of 14 games of 40+ points, and he averaged 53 and 54 ppg in them. He also had a string of SEVEN straight 50+ point games. And, how about a 5 game streak late in the season, when he scored 67, 65, 61, 100, and 58 points...or 351 points...or 70 ppg!

[La Frescobaldi]

http://articles.mcall.com/1991-03-19/sports/2780226_1_wilton-norman-chamberlain-chamberlain-s-former-teammates-76er-owner

From WC 1991 Sixers jersey retirement ceremony...........

Charles Barkley, perhaps the next Sixer who will receive the honor, presented Chamberlain with a 14-karat gold necklace that featured 100 diamonds.

Barkley, as usual, left his impact on the proceedings.

"A few years ago when we had a ceremony to say good-bye to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, I got in trouble," Barkley said. "They wanted me to say he was the greatest player of all-time. I told 'em no way. Right here (pointing to Chamberlain) is the greatest player of all-time."

Chuckster changed his tune later but I've always wondered. Players always view their era, when they were on the court, as the hardest ever. Game's a little easier when you are watching it than when you're on the court
******************************

(Billy) Cunningham, who was a teammate of Chamberlain's on the 76ers' world championship 1966-67 team -- voted by a panel of experts as the greatest team of all-time -- and who coached the Sixers to their last NBA crown in 1983, said, "Wilt was the most dominating player ever to wear sneakers and a uniform.

"He was the man that made basketball. Without him coming on to the scene, the future of basketball wouldn't have looked bright. The players of today owe him their gratitude because all the benefits they're reaping today wouldn't have happened without Wilt."

(Frank) McGuire, the former Warriors' head coach who Chamberlain held in the highest esteem, said, "Wilt is the greatest player of all time and, in my mind, he'll always be the greatest. The one record that he set that no one will ever break is that in 1962, he played in every single minute of every game."

**************************

There's a Kobe - MJ debate on another thread right now, guy saying he was too young to see MJ but he's not that impressive compared to Kobe

LOL

But an interesting comment was from LOCK: "You illustrate my point in my original post. It depends what generation you grow up watching and made you love the game as to who you consider to be the greatest. For you its Kobe and no one will convince you otherwise.

There is no solution to this argument, thats why I just consider them all to be greatest NBA players and none of this ranking rubbish."

Kblaze wrote similar stuff on there, basically in time people will forget MJ and vote Kobe as greatest ever... it'd be a shame to see MJ get the same bashing that Chamberlain has had for 40 years, guys like Larry Bird & Bill Russell calling him the greatest but everyone who never saw him saying he was a dud. Of course the difference is anyone with a brain can look at thousands of hours of MJ game film, there's almost no film of Chamberlain.

It's true to say, we literally have only Chamberlain's worst games on film. There's no 50+ point games, no 30 30s that I know of. The closest we have are some of his Lakers games, and a single playoff game against Boston in '67 - the only game Boston won in that series, from a Boston tv station

*********************************

Guess I'm in that same category, fan bias or whatever. The guy that blew me away was Chamberlain, just the things he could do on the court - first I saw of him he was a Sixer, don't really remember him as a Warrior... and nobody I ever saw has come close.

[D-Wade316]

http://articles.mcall.com/1991-03-19/sports/2780226_1_wilton-norman-chamberlain-chamberlain-s-former-teammates-76er-owner

From WC 1991 Sixers jersey retirement ceremony...........

Charles Barkley, perhaps the next Sixer who will receive the honor, presented Chamberlain with a 14-karat gold necklace that featured 100 diamonds.

Barkley, as usual, left his impact on the proceedings.

"A few years ago when we had a ceremony to say good-bye to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, I got in trouble," Barkley said. "They wanted me to say he was the greatest player of all-time. I told 'em no way. Right here (pointing to Chamberlain) is the greatest player of all-time."

Chuckster changed his tune later but I've always wondered. Players always view their era, when they were on the court, as the hardest ever. Game's a little easier when you are watching it than when you're on the court
******************************

(Billy) Cunningham, who was a teammate of Chamberlain's on the 76ers' world championship 1966-67 team -- voted by a panel of experts as the greatest team of all-time -- and who coached the Sixers to their last NBA crown in 1983, said, "Wilt was the most dominating player ever to wear sneakers and a uniform.

"He was the man that made basketball. Without him coming on to the scene, the future of basketball wouldn't have looked bright. The players of today owe him their gratitude because all the benefits they're reaping today wouldn't have happened without Wilt."

(Frank) McGuire, the former Warriors' head coach who Chamberlain held in the highest esteem, said, "Wilt is the greatest player of all time and, in my mind, he'll always be the greatest. The one record that he set that no one will ever break is that in 1962, he played in every single minute of every game."

**************************

There's a Kobe - MJ debate on another thread right now, guy saying he was too young to see MJ but he's not that impressive compared to Kobe

LOL

But an interesting comment was from LOCK: "You illustrate my point in my original post. It depends what generation you grow up watching and made you love the game as to who you consider to be the greatest. For you its Kobe and no one will convince you otherwise.

There is no solution to this argument, thats why I just consider them all to be greatest NBA players and none of this ranking rubbish."

Kblaze wrote similar stuff on there, basically in time people will forget MJ and vote Kobe as greatest ever... it'd be a shame to see MJ get the same bashing that Chamberlain has had for 40 years, guys like Larry Bird & Bill Russell calling him the greatest but everyone who never saw him saying he was a dud. Of course the difference is anyone with a brain can look at thousands of hours of MJ game film, there's almost no film of Chamberlain.

It's true to say, we literally have only Chamberlain's worst games on film. There's no 50+ point games, no 30 30s that I know of. The closest we have are some of his Lakers games, and a single playoff game against Boston in '67 - the only game Boston won in that series, from a Boston tv station

*********************************

Guess I'm in that same category, fan bias or whatever. The guy that blew me away was Chamberlain, just the things he could do on the court - first I saw of him he was a Sixer, don't really remember him as a Warrior... and nobody I ever saw has come close.
:applause: Understatement.

[MMKM]

"Hey, this is an interesting topic."

Someone said that 50 years ago, when it was current.

[32Dayz]

Shaq is not a top 3 scorer ever.:facepalm

Are you kidding?

Most unstoppable/unguardable/efficient/consistent scorer ever.

Only Jordan has a case against him All-Time as a scorer and
Kareem is 3rd.

[jlip]

If I remember correctly he shot like 50% that year. Considering his 27 rebounds a game...how much of it had to be quick rebounds and putbacks? we see a lot of that in every game he plays.

Minus his gimme layups/dunks which were no doubt substantial....for him to shoot as low as 50%...he had to be shooting in the 40s if not 30s on shots he just set out to create.

That is hard to accept s the best he could possibly perform. Too many times ive seen him just get up for a posession or two and blow by guys for dunks or power over a guy for a layup. Then go back to fingerrolls and such. And this is later in his career before he stopped shooting jumpers.

He had to be throwing up some garbage(relative to what he could get) to possibly make only half his shots when hes probably getting 10 offensive rebounds a night and 4-5 dunks off them.

You make great points about what Wilt probably could have done to improve his shot selection and fg%, but I do think the root of your analysis stems from a modern perception of how 50% shooting from a dominant center is viewed as opposed to how it would have been viewed in 1962. As a historian myself, I was taught that one of the cardinal rules of analyzing the past is understanding the context in which something happened. For the world at the moment in question quite possibly might not be the same as the world today. That's the case with Wilt's 50.6% in 1962.

Of course 50.6% from the field is very mediocre for a dominant center in 2011, but if one were alive in 1962 and witnessed Wilt shooting with that level of efficiency, he would not be saying, "Wilt knows that he should be able to shoot a higher fg% than that. He should increase his efficiency by using his physical advantages." He would be saying, "OMG! I can't believe this! Are my eyes deceiving me? Who is the freak who just shot over 50% from the field for an entire season?!!!" The person alive in 1962 would be coming from the vantage point of one who understood that before that season there had only been one instance in the entire history of the league of a player shooting at least 50% for an entire season. You guessed it. It was Wilt the season before ('61), and obviously that was an NBA record for fg% at the time. Reaching 50% shooting for an entire year was, at that time, "going where no man had gone before." So to them, Wilt's 50.6% was definitely not anything to criticize. To a person in 1962, that 50.6% was freaking legendary and epic.

In '62, Wilt finished 2nd in fg% to rookie Walt Bellamy who shot 51.9%. So that means that Wilt's 50.6% at that time was the 3rd highest in the history of the league. He owned the 2nd highest at 50.9% which again was an NBA record when it was achieved the preceding season.

[Asukal]

You make great points about what Wilt probably could have done to improve his shot selection and fg%, but I do think the root of your analysis stems from a modern perception of how 50% shooting from a dominant center is viewed as opposed to how it would have been viewed in 1962. As a historian myself, I was taught that one of the cardinal rules of analyzing the past is understanding the context in which something happened. For the world at the moment in question quite possibly might not be the same as the world today. That's the case with Wilt's 50.6% in 1962.

Of course 50.6% from the field is very mediocre for a dominant center in 2011, but if one were alive in 1962 and witnessed Wilt shooting with that level of efficiency, he would not be saying, "Wilt knows that he should be able to shoot a higher fg% than that. He should increase his efficiency by using his physical advantages." He would be saying, "OMG! I can't believe this! Are my eyes deceiving me? Who is the freak who just shot over 50% from the field for an entire season?!!!" The person alive in 1962 would be coming from the vantage point of one who understood that before that season there had only been one instance in the entire history of the league of a player shooting at least 50% for an entire season. You guessed it. It was Wilt the season before ('61), and obviously that was an NBA record for fg% at the time. Reaching 50% shooting for an entire year was, at that time, "going where no man had gone before." So to them, Wilt's 50.6% was definitely not anything to criticize. To a person in 1962, that 50.6% was freaking legendary and epic.

In '62, Wilt finished 2nd in fg% to rookie Walt Bellamy who shot 51.9%. So that means that Wilt's 50.6% at that time was the 3rd highest in the history of the league. He owned the 2nd highest at 50.9% which again was an NBA record when it was achieved the preceding season.

I agree and this explain why many things Wilt accomplished is kind of regarded extremely high by his fans. Yet it is also fair to ask these fans to analyze Wilt in a standard where it includes the whole NBA history and not only limited to his era. :cheers:

[millwad]

I agree and this explain why many things Wilt accomplished is kind of regarded extremely high by his fans. Yet it is also fair to ask these fans to analyze Wilt in a standard where it includes the whole NBA history and not only limited to his era. :cheers:

It's pretty funny, according to Wilt fans it's completely fair to compare stuff like Wilt's scoring average and rebounding average to ALL players (era doesn't matter) but if it's something Wilt didn't stand out in, like FT% or FG% (his first years and playoffs) it's only fair to compare him with the players of his own era..

[La Frescobaldi]

The excellent stat sheet of the OP probably has the answer on fg%.

The guy was shooting 15+ free throws almost every game.
Tommy Heinsohn said people talk about hard fouls... Half the fouls on Wilt were hard fouls."
Hard to have good fg% when guys are hanging on your arm on 20 or 25 of your shots

[Sarcastic]

His worst rebounding game was 15 :pimp:

[Sarcastic]

He played 63 minutes on December 8. Is that the record?

[32Dayz]

I'd really love to see one old game of Chamberlain towards maybe the middle or end of a season when he played a ton of minutes.

I am really interested in his activity level especially towards the end of the game.

[millwad]

I'd really love to see one old game of Chamberlain towards maybe the middle or end of a season when he played a ton of minutes.

I am really interested in his activity level especially towards the end of the game.

Personally I'd like to see the "crazy double and triple-teams Wilt faced" which Jlauber spams constantly about. I've yet to see anything other than normal man to man defense or decent double teams on Wilt..

[Psileas]

First 3 games, back to back to back. 48-57-53

A couple more stats you might have not noticed from that season:

-Despite being a career poor FT shooter, this season he was almost decent. Notice he actually has a 40-game streak with 50+% shooting.

-Between 1/30 and 2/11, in 9 games and 432 minutes played (2 streaks of back to back to back to back games, btw), he commited a total of 5 fouls.

[32Dayz]

-Between 1/30 and 2/11, in 9 games and 432 minutes played (2 streaks of back to back to back to back games, btw), he commited a total of 5 fouls.

Makes you wonder how hard he played on defense or what the quality of guard play was back then.

I found it quite odd how he rarely (if ever) had a game with more then 3 fouls.

May have just been the difference in the way they called the games back then though.

[Psileas]

Makes you wonder how hard he played on defense or what the quality of guard play was back then.

I found it quite odd how he rarely (if ever) had a game with more then 3 fouls.

May have just been the difference in the way they called the games back then though.

Partially, but let's also not forget that Wilt's career high (ignoring 1970), though coming during his arguably best defensive season (1972), was still a very low 2.4. Bill Russell was far from a big time fouler, as well, with 4 seasons below 2.5, in pretty huge minutes himself. Wayne Embry, a much worse defender than both, commited lots of fouls. For me, it's more a matter of the game's style and calling than lack of defensive effort.

[jlauber]

It's pretty funny, according to Wilt fans it's completely fair to compare stuff like Wilt's scoring average and rebounding average to ALL players (era doesn't matter) but if it's something Wilt didn't stand out in, like FT% or FG% (his first years and playoffs) it's only fair to compare him with the players of his own era..

Actually it is the other way around. When it comes to Chamberlain's numbers (and to a lessor extent, Oscar's), PACE is ALWAYS brought up. Not only that, but it is always overblown by the "Wilt-bashers." I have read nonsense such as if you transported Wilt's '62 numbers to today, he would be a 25-13 guy. In other words, the "anti-Wilt" gang would have us believe that in the '62 season, teams were averaging 200 ppg and 100 rpg.

As for Wilt's so-called "poor efficiency" in his early years, you could make an argument that his rookie season, in which he shot .461, which was the ONLY time in his career in which he did not shoot at least 50%, was rather poor. Except that the league shot .410 overall.

Regarding FG%'s, and as I have pointed out before, look at the players that played in the early 60's and into the late 60's and even early 70's. West shot .419 and .445 in his first two years, and only a few years later was shooting .514. Baylor shot .428 in the early 60's, and .401 twice in a row in the mid-60's, and yet had a .486 season in the late 69-70 season. Havlicek played eight seasons in the 60's and eight seasons in the 70's...and guess what? He shot better in EVERY season in the 70's, than in his BEST season in the 60's. And he even shot .399 in the early 60's. Walt Bellamy, who held the all-time record for one season, at .519, shot .541 in 67-68, and then .545 in his 71-72 season, when he was still scoring 18.6 ppg.

Even before the 60's, there was Bill Sharman, who was a marvelous shooter. The man had three seasons of 90%+ FT shooting, including a .932 season in the late 50's. His highest FG% season was .456, which seems pretty mediocre on the surface, until you factor in that it came in a league that shot .410.

And I have pointed this out earlier in this topic, but when Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg in his 62-63 season, he shot .528 (in a league that shot .441.) Now, if .528 is considered unimpressive, then what about Hakeem and Robinson in their highest scoring seasons? In Hakeem's best scoring season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on .517 shooting, in a league that shot .466. In Robinson's highest scoring season, he averaged 29.2 ppg on .507 shooting, in a league that shot .466.

Or how about Wilt's 65-66 season, when he averaged 33.5 ppg, on .540 shooting, and in a league that shot .433? Oh, and BTW, he also led the league in rebounding at 24.6 rpg, and had time to hand out 5.2 apg, too. All while leading his team to the best record in the league. Incidently, ALL of those numbers were better than ANY single season mark by Hakeem.

The "anti-Chamberlain" clan seldom bring up his 24.1 ppg on .683 shooting (in a league that shot .441), either. And, he also finished third in assists that season, at 7.8 apg. As for his scoring, he still had the highest scoring game of the season, with a 58 point game (on 26-34 shooting), as well as a 42 point game on 18-18 shooting.

The season that "could have been" would have been his 69-70 season. He started out with a 32.2 ppg average on .600 shooting, in his first nine games. Included in those games were games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points, as well as a game in which he crushed Kareem with a 25-25 game on 9-14 shooting. The 37 point game came against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle; the 38 point game came against reigning MVP Wes Unseld; and the 42 point game was against Bob Rule, who was a star player in his very short career.

Of course, Chamberlain set the all-time FG% record in his LAST season, at .727. A record which will probably never be broken.

[32Dayz]

I have read nonsense such as if you transported Wilt's '62 numbers to today, he would be a 25-13 guy. In other words, the "anti-Wilt" gang would have us believe that in the '62 season, teams were averaging 200 ppg and 100 rpg.

That seems realistic.

Although its impossible to say I doubt he would be scoring more then 30ppg at his scoring peak.

Remember at his scoring peak in a faster paced league with far more possessions and with far more opportunity's for put backs and tip in's due to lower league-wide FG%.
He was only scoring 30-35ppg and usually on sub .500 shooting %'s (only once did he crack 30ppg and also shoot above 50% and that was in 1964). He was also on a team who's entire 0ffensive system was basically to feed him everytime down the court.
The rest of his Career he was a 15-20ppg scorer on around 55%FG and really bad TS% due to horrendous FT shooting (bunch of years around 38-40%).

BTW I am referring to his Playoff Career just so you understand.

Put him in today's league with far fewer possessions and in a normal 0ffensive system where he wont be force fed the way he was and saying he might average 18-25ppg doesn't seem super far fetched.

[Asukal]

That seems realistic.

Although its impossible to say I doubt he would be scoring more then 30ppg at his scoring peak.

Remember at his scoring peak in a faster paced league with far more possessions and with far more opportunity's for put backs and tip in's due to lower league-wide FG%.
He was only scoring 30-35ppg and usually on sub .500 shooting %'s (only once did he crack 30ppg and also shoot above 50% and that was in 1964). He was also on a team who's entire 0ffensive system was basically to feed him everytime down the court.
The rest of his Career he was a 15-20ppg scorer on around 55%FG and really bad TS% due to horrendous FT shooting (bunch of years around 38-40%).

BTW I am referring to his Playoff Career just so you understand.

Put him in today's league with far fewer possessions and in a normal 0ffensive system where he wont be force fed the way he was and saying he might average 18-25ppg doesn't seem super far fetched.

Well it seems to me that a 25-13 guy to Jlauber is an insult to his idol. :facepalm

Those are superstar numbers today, I personally believe Wilt could go a bit higher than that though if he really is that good. :cheers:

[La Frescobaldi]

I'd really love to see one old game of Chamberlain towards maybe the middle or end of a season when he played a ton of minutes.

I am really interested in his activity level especially towards the end of the game.

I was gonna reply to ya but then like a moron i posted this on the wrong freaking thread............... anyhow here's a idea I been tinkering with out on the boat... rip her up

**************************

These 3 games show the invention of modern basketball


Check out the humongous difference in basketball quality between this.....

*********************************
the second half of g7 the '64 Finals:

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jV7WImytM

lots of doubleteaming on Chamberlain in this second part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uOGY0fftVA

part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzuWJblenO4

part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qgE9iJiTAQ

************************************
And this, the only most-of-a-game clip I know of on the '67 EDF.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJaFNsa-Bqs

************************************
And this, G5 of the '72 Lakers run
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tQobnWfVoc

part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkBQAYwbguk

In a very real way, you can see the development of modern basketball in those 3 games, 8 years apart.


In the first game, there's very little fundamentals, almost no set plays, and a whole lot of running and muscle. In my view, that's mostly because the Warriors were so pathetically bad that they dragged the Celtics along into the gutter with them. Guy Rodgers & Tom Meschery playin their guts out but wow but Nate Thurmond lookin strong at times

In the second game, there's an astronomical improvement in basketball skills by all players, some real defensive strategies, and the triple post or triangle offense is on full display (rudimentary, primitive, primevel even) by the 76ers.

In the '72 game - it's modern basketball without a 3 point line.

I was pretty much wrong on a earlier post where i didn't know of any of Chamberlain's huge games, that 64 game he went 27pts 38 rebs (which tied the rebounding record in a finals game) and then that 72 game everybody knows the 24pts 29 rebs 8 assists and 9 blocks with 5 minutes left.

Lot of speculation about what Wilt did in that missing 3 or 4 minutes of the '72 game 5, but i have seen a clip that shows all the starters going to the bench on both teams with just over a minute left.

[32Dayz]

Cool Clips, thanks for postin.

[Pointguard]

That seems realistic.

Although its impossible to say I doubt he would be scoring more then 30ppg at his scoring peak.

Remember at his scoring peak in a faster paced league with far more possessions and with far more opportunity's for put backs and tip in's due to lower league-wide FG%.

The playoffs wasn't played at the pace the regular season was played. It was a slower game. Also you failed to realize that the game was more crowded under the basket during the playoffs.


He was only scoring 30-35ppg and usually on sub .500 shooting %'s (only once did he crack 30ppg and also shoot above 50% and that was in 1964).
He was always among the league leaders in percentage, even in the playoffs. And was by far the top guy on his team by outrageous margins of up 90 percentage points and 60 percentage points in a couple of those years. And on average he was above 100 percentage points above the rest of the team cumulative average in all of those years. In '65 he even made the second round while being 150 percentage points above the rest of the team average in the playoffs. You have to speak of things relatively and in context otherwise its just madness. You don't think the teams knew where the game had to be won? And Boston was a great defensive team.


The rest of his Career he was a 15-20ppg scorer on around 55%FG and really bad TS% due to horrendous FT shooting (bunch of years around 38-40%).

I just want to make you aware that Shaq had worse years in FT%. Shaq had years of 33% and 37% in the playoffs and you think he's perfect.


Put him in today's league with far fewer possessions and in a normal 0ffensive system where he wont be force fed the way he was and saying he might average 18-25ppg doesn't seem super far fetched.
Dwight Howard isn't a natural scorer and he's at 22ppg. He was at 20ppg with little next to no skills. Chamberlain is bigger stronger longer and a natural scorer with a superior touch. The floor is more open because of three point shooters. Chamberlain would be allowed to walk, hop, and drop step with the longest legs in the game. The refs would work with him instead of against him. He wouldn't be hacked like crazy. Nobody could run with him. He would have practice time so his touch would be better. He would be more explosive because of stretching. He would have big men coaches and Free throw coaches. The schedule is a cake walk. DH and Chandler are the only two centers that take pride in defense. He would be challenged more as Wilt was hardly outscored in his scoring years. The basketball itself and gym floors would always be in great shape - when things are up to standard it helps your shot alot. The arenas would all have heat and hot showers... .

[Psileas]

That seems realistic.

Although its impossible to say I doubt he would be scoring more then 30ppg at his scoring peak.

Remember at his scoring peak in a faster paced league with far more possessions and with far more opportunity's for put backs and tip in's due to lower league-wide FG%.
He was only scoring 30-35ppg and usually on sub .500 shooting %'s (only once did he crack 30ppg and also shoot above 50% and that was in 1964). He was also on a team who's entire 0ffensive system was basically to feed him everytime down the court.
The rest of his Career he was a 15-20ppg scorer on around 55%FG and really bad TS% due to horrendous FT shooting (bunch of years around 38-40%).

BTW I am referring to his Playoff Career just so you understand.

When you adjust the numbers of other superstars, do you also go by their playoff numbers? Do you consider Larry Bird's scoring peak to be 27.5 ppg in 42 mpg, in a faster/more offensively oriented league than today's, on a decent, but not spectacular for his era 49% FG? Is 2006 Kobe Bryant a 28 ppg on 40% FG scorer with a career scoring peak of 32 ppg on 43% FG (unless you also consider short single series' postseasons)?

[Pointguard]

Actually it is the other way around. When it comes to Chamberlain's numbers (and to a lessor extent, Oscar's), PACE is ALWAYS brought up. Not only that, but it is always overblown by the "Wilt-bashers." I have read nonsense such as if you transported Wilt's '62 numbers to today, he would be a 25-13 guy. In other words, the "anti-Wilt" gang would have us believe that in the '62 season, teams were averaging 200 ppg and 100 rpg.

And I have pointed this out earlier in this topic, but when Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg in his 62-63 season, he shot .528 (in a league that shot .441.) Now, if .528 is considered unimpressive, then what about Hakeem and Robinson in their highest scoring seasons? In Hakeem's best scoring season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on .517 shooting, in a league that shot .466. In Robinson's highest scoring season, he averaged 29.2 ppg on .507 shooting, in a league that shot .466.

The "anti-Chamberlain" clan seldom bring up his 24.1 ppg on .683 shooting (in a league that shot .441), either. And, he also finished third in assists that season, at 7.8 apg. As for his scoring, he still had the highest scoring game of the season, with a 58 point game (on 26-34 shooting), as well as a 42 point game on 18-18 shooting.


Of course, Chamberlain set the all-time FG% record in his LAST season, at .727. A record which will probably never be broken.

Great points. I think the anti Wilt clan has gone delirious in denying that such a season exist they unwittingly find themselves digging for weakness not knowing how thoroughly good Wilt was in all aspects of being a center - except foul shooting but great centers almost across the board subscribe to this one. The wildest attack is that he wasn't a great scorer. He was the best ever in efficiency and the best ever in mass production scoring as well. He was the best relative to his peers. He was the best with regards to records. He was the best with peak scoring. He was the best scorer according to prime. He had the most endurance, and was one of the most versatile scoring centers too. His range would be among the best of the top centers.

His top 7 seasons cumulative average (or 540 games 39ppg/24rebs) would be among the best single nights for any of the other great centers. And that not throwing in a sure 5 blocks per game and 3 assist. For 540 games he maintained a level of play so high, few could ever touch what he averaged. And this was before he was getting unreachable triple double doubles and he likely got a quintuple in there somewhere as well. Pace accounts for somethings but not all. Remember, Kareem was his contemporary.

[La Frescobaldi]

Pointguard, you rock.

[Scholar]

Season low of 28 points! :eek:

[Pointguard]

Pointguard, you rock.

Ha, Fres, when you are on a boat, like you, everything rocks.

Thanks. :cheers:

[jacobgoindum]

impressive :applause:

[jlauber]

That seems realistic.

Although its impossible to say I doubt he would be scoring more then 30ppg at his scoring peak.

Remember at his scoring peak in a faster paced league with far more possessions and with far more opportunity's for put backs and tip in's due to lower league-wide FG%.
He was only scoring 30-35ppg and usually on sub .500 shooting %'s (only once did he crack 30ppg and also shoot above 50% and that was in 1964). He was also on a team who's entire 0ffensive system was basically to feed him everytime down the court.
The rest of his Career he was a 15-20ppg scorer on around 55%FG and really bad TS% due to horrendous FT shooting (bunch of years around 38-40%).

BTW I am referring to his Playoff Career just so you understand.

Put him in today's league with far fewer possessions and in a normal 0ffensive system where he wont be force fed the way he was and saying he might average 18-25ppg doesn't seem super far fetched.

First of all, NO ONE really knows what a prime Chamberlain would accomplish in today's NBA. The only tangible evidence is that a prime Kareem struggled mightily against an old Wilt, and never came close to a PRIME Chamberlain's domination of many of the same centers that both faced. BUT, an OLD Kareem just BOMBED Hakeem and Ewing in the '86 season. In fact, Kareem shot .599 against Hakeem in the LAST four years of his career, and between ages 38-41.

BUT, those that claim that if you took Wilt's NUMBERS, and transported them to TODAY, he would be a 25-13 guy...well, they need to take third-grade math all over (if they have already taken it.) Once again, Chamberlain's '62 season was NOT playing at DOUBLE the pace of the current NBA. In '62, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. In MJ's '87, it was at 109.9 ppg. LAST year it was at 99.6 ppg. Reduce Chamberlain's scoring down to '87 levels, and he would be at 92.5% of '62 scoring...or 46.6 ppg! Reduce it further down to '11 levels, and it would be at 83.8% of '62 numbers,...or 42.5 ppg!

BTW, you can also apply 4th grade math, and reduce Wilt's actually FGA and FTAs down to each of those seasons, and he would STILL be around 40 ppg. BUT, if you reduce Chamberlain's scoring based on FGA and FTAs to those other season levels, you HAVE to INCREASE his FG% to the those league averages, as well. For instance, take Wilt's .506 in '62, in a league that shot .426, and put it in a league that shot .459, and his FG% would rise to .545. Move it '87 levels, in a league that shot .480, and he would have shot .570.

Now, you can make all the other arguments you want. Would he play 48 mpg? Would his teammates pass him the ball enough to get 30+ FGAs per game? Or other's. BUT, simply transporting Wilt's NUMBERS to 2011 would NOT reduce his NUMBERS to a 25-13 season. More like 40-18.

Do I believe that Wilt would put up 40-18 numbers in today's NBA. No, nor do I believe any team would let him. BUT, while his minutes would diminsh, his efficiency would naturally rise, especially over the course of 82 games. Playing 42 mpg in today's game, instead of 48 mpg at a slightly faster pace would naturally make him more efficient.


Regarding Wilt's post-season scoring and FG%'s in his "scoring" prime. First of all, Wilt only played in six post-seasons, in his first seven years (his "scoring" prime.) He missed his 62-63 season, in a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg and shot .528 (in a league that shot .441) because his teammates were so awful, that they went 31-49 (albeit, losing 35 games by single digits.) So, that removes his second greatest scoring season from those numbers. THEN, factor in that a "scoring" Wilt only played in 52 of his 160 post-season games (again, because his teammates were generally inept.) Not only that, though, BUT, in those 52 games, they faced Russell's HOF-laden teams in 30 of them! He was facing the greatest defensive player, and the most dominant dynasty in pro basketball history in 60% of his "scoring" prime games.


And Psileas made a great comment. Bird' scoring and FG%, particularly in his BEST regular seasons, were considerably worse in those post-seasons. Overall, his post-season FG% was at .472, (down from .496 in the regular season), AND, in league's that shot between .477 to .492. He was WORSE than the league average. But it gets even worse, as well. He shot .455 over the course of his 31 Finals games. In fact, he had as many games under .399 in the Finals, 11, as he did shooting over .499. He even had two games of under 30%!

Kobe is another great example. He has shot worse in the post-season, and particularly his Finals, than he did in his regular seasons.

Kareem is yet another one. Most fans just look at his overall playoff numbers, and see that they did not decline by much (although his career FG% went from .559 in his regular seasons, down to .533 in his post-seasons.) HOWEVER, in his three greatest "scoring" seasons, from 70-71 thru 72-73, and in leagues in which he scored 30-35 ppg and on FG%"s that ranged from .554 to .577, he had FIVE straight series against Thurmond and Wilt, in which he scored considerably less, and shot .486, .481, .457, .428, and even .405. He even shot .462 against Moses in '81, and was just awful in his '88 Finals, when he shot .414.

Even MJ had three straight Finals of .455, .427, and even .415. And ALL of the above played in league's that shot MUCH higher than those in which Wilt played. In Wilt's "scoring" seasons, the NBA had percentages of .410, .415, .426, .441, .433, .426 (widening of the lane...which didn't affect Wilt at all), and .433. Overall, those league's shot .426 in those seven seasons. And Wilt shot .505 in the post-season in those seven seasons. In fact, Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and shot .505 in those seven seasons, and covering six poist-seasons (remember, his team was so pathetic in '63 that he missed the playoffs)...COMBINED. Of course, how about his regular season numbers? 39.6 ppg, 24.8 rpg, and on .511 shooting...in league's that shot .426 on average.


And of course, why was it ONLY Chamberlain who was putting up those staggering scoring, rebounding, FG%'s, seasons. And as I posted earlier, take Wilt out of the equation, and there have only been 30 games of 60+ points (Wilt had 32 by himself.) Or only 28 30-30 games (Chamberlain had 103 on his own.) Or only six 40-30 games (Chamberlain had 55.) Take Wilt and his FOUR highest scoring seasons out, and MJ's 37.1 ppg would be the all-time record, and Rick Barry, who played in the Wilt-era, would be next at 35.6 ppg. BTW, Kareem's 34.8 ppg in '72 (also in the Chamberlain-era), is 10th all-time, and Baylor's 60-61 season of 34.8 ppg is 11th. So, strike Chamberlain from the record book, and the numbers are far more normal across all eras.

Once again...why ONLY Chamberlain???

[32Dayz]

The wildest attack is that he wasn't a great scorer. He was the best ever in efficiency and the best ever in mass production scoring as well. He was the best relative to his peers.

He isn't close to being the best in Efficiency or Volume when you look at Playoff PPG/Efficiency.
He might not even be in the Top 5-10. :facepalm

It's not an "attack" its a legitimate point.

And being great relative to his peers just meant the quality of the league back then was much weaker then it would become in later generations. The guard play in particular was much poorer combined with the pace of the game led to such low league-wide shooting %'s and that is why the whole (the league shot poorly thing) is not a good excuse for Chamberlains poor shooting %'s.

Your telling me Chamberlain who only once was able to score 30+ppg while also shooting above .50% would in this Era with much slower pace / fewer possessions and better defenders and defensive schemes would easily be averaging 30+?

Very unlikely.

Also I know Shaq was a bad FT Shooter
(and at times it was a liability of his) but only you would be dumb enough to use his 06 and 07 season.
He was way past his Prime by then and after 06 was truly a shell of himself. Chamberlains worst FT issues came right during the prime of his Career
(Age 29-33). During those years he shot around 38-39% from the line.
Over his Career he was far worse of a FT Shooter then Shaq and its not even remotely close.

This obviously would make Hack-A-Wilt far more tempting then Hack-A-Shaq since Wilt would be shooting worse %'s far more often then Oneal did and unlike Oneal who tended to shoot a higher % from the line in 4th Quarters Chamberlain was the exact opposite.

So really.. Chamberlain in today's game would probably be a 18-25ppg scorer on maybe 52%FG? That seems realistic.

Honestly I see him @ 22ppg maybe 12-13 rpg and 2.5 bpg.
Maybe he gets to 25 or 27ppg if he gets on a really shitty team who is ok with him taking most of the possessions and averaging sub .500 shooting %'s.

[Pointguard]

He isn't close to being the best in Efficiency or Volume when you look at Playoff PPG/Efficiency.
He might not even be in the Top 5-10. :facepalm

37ppg and 35ppg in a playoff run is very high for centers. Most of the records in professional sports are about the regular season. That's just the way it is.


And being great relative to his peers just meant the quality of the league back then was much weaker then it would become in later generations. The guard play in particular was much poorer combined with the pace of the game led to such low league-wide shooting %'s and that is why the whole (the league shot poorly thing) is not a good excuse for Chamberlains poor shooting %'s.
Hmmmm, that's funny because guards feeding the post make the game much easier for front court players. Wilt would be scoring like crazy today because his timing was off the hook (DH gets alley oops galore and he isn't that tall). Wilt had to create a lot in the film clips as there are not penetrating guards making it easy for him. They rarely had time to practice back then, they rarely had practice facilities. And when they did it didn't mean it had lights or heat.

I hear the coaches now talking about how they expect sloppy play this year because the games are so close together...?...? Did you see that schedule above? In the off season a lot of these guys weren't in gyms - they were working other jobs. Without masseuses, plush beds, chartered flights. Dirk probably spent more time in a regulated gym in his first two years solo practicing than Chamberlain experienced in his entire life. Dirk is one of the best shooters in the game and a great playoff performer (the best last year) and he's 7 feet -his playoff FG% looks eerily similar to Wilts. What gives?


Your telling me Chamberlain who only once was able to score 30+ppg while also shooting above .50% would in this Era with much slower pace / fewer possessions and better defenders and defensive schemes would easily be averaging 30+?

Much of what I posted above applies here. If Wilt played on Phoenix there would be little resistance at all. Nobody stopped Phoenix from scoring. Amare was averaging 27ppg with very little skill and shot 590% on these super sophisticated schemes. DH, had little skill played a slow paced game and rocked 20ppg twice while shooting 600% on these super sophisticated defenses. D Rob lead the league in scoring 29ppg without a polished post game - this new sophistication has a lot of holes in it. The defenders are not better - that's simply not true. The floor is more spread out now.


Also I know Shaq was a bad FT Shooter
(and at times it was a liability of his) but only you would be dumb enough to use his 06 and 07 season.
He was way past his Prime by then and after 06 was truly a shell of himself. Chamberlains worst FT issues came right during the prime of his Career
(Age 29-33). During those years he shot around 38-39% from the line.
Over his Career he was far worse of a FT Shooter then Shaq and its not even remotely close.
In his prime Shaq shot 47, 46 and 39% in the playoffs. And nobody said it was a big deal. I unquestionably would have wanted Shaq than anybody else. So its not the factor you are imagining it to be. Particularly when Wilt had crazy separation from the pack that Shaq didn't have in the major center categories.


This obviously would make Hack-A-Wilt far more tempting then Hack-A-Shaq since Wilt would be shooting worse %'s far more often then Oneal did and unlike Oneal who tended to shoot a higher % from the line in 4th Quarters Chamberlain was the exact opposite.

The game was different back then, guy. You would shoot three foul shots to get two points or two shots for one point when in the penalty. Hack a Wilt would put you in the penalty early and really cost you the game. I heard the strategy was used once but I don't know if it was a strategy otherwise.


So really.. Chamberlain in today's game would probably be a 18-25ppg scorer on maybe 52%FG? That seems realistic.

Honestly I see him @ 22ppg maybe 12-13 rpg and 2.5 bpg.
Maybe he gets to 25 or 27ppg if he gets on a really shitty team who is ok with him taking most of the possessions and averaging sub .500 shooting %'s.

He was faster than Amare, stronger than DH, more polished than D Rob and taller, more powerful and athletic than them all. He would have the best first and last step a center ever had. He would have practice time and get calls. You waaaaaaaay off.

[32Dayz]

He was faster than Amare, stronger than DH, more polished than D Rob and taller, more powerful and athletic than them all. He would have the best first and last step a center ever had. He would have practice time and get calls. You waaaaaaaay off.

Most of what your saying is just your opinion and far from provable.

This so called "separation" didn't really exist except for his scoring and that was because of unique circumstances which I list right below this.
(Team 0ffense that was based on force feeding him the ball everytime down the floor, playing heavy minutes, high number of possessions, high number of 0ffensive rebounds available / tipins.)

% Wise Wilt did not rebound significantly better then Oneal or Duncan or any of the Modern Centers and 0ffensively he is certainly no where near the likes of the Jordan, Shaqs or Kareems who were able to combine high level 0ffensive Volume with excellent efficiency consistently over many years in the playoffs.

Wilt (0ffensively) (in the Playoffs) had maybe 2 seasons that were somewhat onpar statistically with an average season by Prime Jordan/Shaq/Kareem and the rest of his seasons dont even come close, over a career or 5+ years he cannot compete 0ffensively against those type of players. You severely overrate him as an 0ffensive player.

Is he faster then Amare? Doubt it.

Is he anywhere near as athletic as Young or Prime Shaq? Doubt it.

Even DRob appears to be far more athletic then Wilt was and skill wise there is no comparison between the two.
DRob is 100x more skilled then Wilt ever was. Even Shaq to me was far more coordinated and much more fluid/smooth with his post moves then Wilt was who at times seemed very herky jerky.

I was just watching video of Wilt being pushed around by B. Russell under the basket, for this incredible strength you say he has it didn't appear that way. In his young and Prime years he appeared pretty skinny and not overly powerful or explosive.

The only skills im comfortable saying Wilt would excel in today is rebounding and defense. 0ffensively I dont think he even approaches the likes of Shaq, Jordan and Kareem.

Again you keep making excuses for his FT Shooting. I know Shaq was bad at it but Wilt was much worse. Thats simply a fact and you should accept it. Shaq never had a stretch of FT shooting during his young or prime years as long or as bad as Wilt did and over a Career the difference is obvious.

This isn't a diss on him and he still makes my Top 5 GOAT list but honestly from watching video of him and statistically his 0ffensive ability does not impress me.

[jlauber]

He isn't close to being the best in Efficiency or Volume when you look at Playoff PPG/Efficiency.
He might not even be in the Top 5-10. :facepalm

It's not an "attack" its a legitimate point.

And being great relative to his peers just meant the quality of the league back then was much weaker then it would become in later generations. The guard play in particular was much poorer combined with the pace of the game led to such low league-wide shooting %'s and that is why the whole (the league shot poorly thing) is not a good excuse for Chamberlains poor shooting %'s.

Your telling me Chamberlain who only once was able to score 30+ppg while also shooting above .50% would in this Era with much slower pace / fewer possessions and better defenders and defensive schemes would easily be averaging 30+?

Very unlikely.

Also I know Shaq was a bad FT Shooter
(and at times it was a liability of his) but only you would be dumb enough to use his 06 and 07 season.
He was way past his Prime by then and after 06 was truly a shell of himself. Chamberlains worst FT issues came right during the prime of his Career
(Age 29-33). During those years he shot around 38-39% from the line.
Over his Career he was far worse of a FT Shooter then Shaq and its not even remotely close.

This obviously would make Hack-A-Wilt far more tempting then Hack-A-Shaq since Wilt would be shooting worse %'s far more often then Oneal did and unlike Oneal who tended to shoot a higher % from the line in 4th Quarters Chamberlain was the exact opposite.

So really.. Chamberlain in today's game would probably be a 18-25ppg scorer on maybe 52%FG? That seems realistic.

Honestly I see him @ 22ppg maybe 12-13 rpg and 2.5 bpg.
Maybe he gets to 25 or 27ppg if he gets on a really shitty team who is ok with him taking most of the possessions and averaging sub .500 shooting %'s.

I get so sick-and-tired of constantly having to defend Wilt's playoff offensive numbers. He played 160 playoff games, and 1045 regular season games. Furthermore, only 52 of his 160 playoff games came in his "scoring" prime, and out of those, 30 were against Russell and the greatest dynasty in NBA history.

Take his 61-62 season for instance. He faced Boston in the ECF's, and averaged 34 ppg on .468 shooting (again, in a league that shot .426.) AND, he had NO help in that entire post-season. His teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season. STILL, he was able to carry them to within TWO points, in a game seven, of beating that HOF-laden team. He was SWARMED in that series. THEN, think about this...had anyone of those crappy teammates made just three more points in that game seven, Chamberlain would have gone to the Finals, and against a Laker team that he had averaged 51.5 ppg in eight regular season games, including THREE of 60+. As it was, Russell went on to have a monster seven game series against the Lakers, including a 30-40 game seven. BTW, during the regular season, Chamberlain hung a 78-43 game on those Lakers.

Shaq had an entire series against Ostertag, for cryingoutloud, of 23 ppg and on .492 shooting. True, he pummeled Mutombo in the 01 Finals, but watching that series, Shaq was allowed to just physically abuse Mutombo. Look at this footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

The NBA would never have allowed Wilt to play like that. Hell, they made up RULES in an attempt to curtail him.

And when he faced the Spurs, he never had a 30 ppg series. In fact, he was held to 21.4 ppg on .447 shooting in the 01-02 playoffs by the Spurs.

And when Chamberlain faced the likes of Dale Davis or Todd MacCullough, he put up 38.6 ppg series against them (Beaty and Kerr.) Even after his "scoring" seasons, Wilt hung a 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, .612 series on journeyman Connie Dierking. Chamberlain SELDOM faced a NON-HOF center in his 160 playoff games. When he did, he just BURIED them. Wilt faced Embry in four games, Lucas (as a center) in five games, Bellamy in 10 games, Kareem in 11 games, Reed (as a center) in 12 games, Thurmond in 17 games, and Russell in 49 games. That's 108 games against a starting HOF center, out of his 160 playoff games. Then, he faced mutiple all-stars, Kerr and Beaty, in a combined 23 more playoff games. So, in 131 of his 160 playoff games, he faced a MINIMUM of a 3-time all-star (Kerr, while Beaty was a 5-time all-star in his career.)

How many all-star appearances did Dale Davis, Rik Smits, Ostertag, Jason Collins, and Todd MacCullough have? TWO...COMBINED.

Look, you know I think very highly of Shaq. But he SELDOM faced anything remotely close to what Chamberlain ran into his post-seasons. Had Wilt routinely faced the cannon-fodder that Shaq pounded in his post-season career, he surely would have put up much better scoring and FG% numbers, too.

And, how about Wilt's OPPOSING CENTERS in the post-season? Take a look at this post...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241027

He almost always pounded them. He routinely held them to WAY below their normal FG% (for instance, Shaq allowed Mutombo, who was never a great offensive player, to a 16 ppg .600 FG% Finals.) And, he was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-season series. In the vast majority of them, he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot his opponents...and many by HUGE margins.

And, once again, in his Wilt's "scoring" prime, from '60 thru '66, the entire NBA shot .426 over the course of those seven seasons. And there were many reasons for that, too. The BALL was not uniform (and I have even seen photos of bald baskletballs); the venues were often cold and even breezy; and of course the SCHEDULE was BRUTAL...even in the POST-SEASON. Chamberlain had 12 B2B playoff games in his career...and then he had TWO more separate steaks of THREE playoff games in THREE nights. Think about that...in his 160 playoff games, he played in 30 in which were B2B, or worse. And he very seldom played with more than one day's rest in between games, either. Then think about this...Chamberlain averaged 47.2 mpg over the course of those 160 playoff games!

Now, you tell me how many B2B playoff games that Shaq had in his post-season career. In fact, give me the number of times in which he had at least TWO days in between playoff games.

The "Wilt-bashers" NEVER acknowledge that Chamberlain was routinely outshooting the league average, and often by HUGE margins...even in his post-season, when he supposedly "declined." My god, Kareem had SEVERAL post-seasons in which he shot lower than the league average, and even more series in which he failed to shoot the league average.

And, then, Wilt was ROUTINELY holding his OPPOSING centers to WELL under the league average in FG%, too. How about this fact. Chamberlain held his opposing centers to under the league average, in the KNOWN playoff series, in TEN of them. He often held his opposing centers to around 100 points less than their regular season FG%, too.

[32Dayz]

Sorry J but I only hear excuses.

The Ref's didn't have anything against Wilt and the Ref's didn't owe Shaq anything. I see Wilt using his size to full advantage in plenty of those old clips and the refs dont call fouls on him, the only video I have where the ref's seem somewhat biased towards him are the oldest college clips of him.
If anything the game used to be far more physical then it is now and Shaq would often be called for 0ffensive fouls in today's game that back in Wilts day would just be no calls.

Please stop with the Shaq only scored because of his Size.
Wilt was far more reliant on his size and size advantage to score then Shaq was in his generation.
Shaq only scored 25-27% of his Career points on Dunks and regularly relied on very accurate Hook-Shots that went out to 10-12 feet to score.

He also relied on his strength and athleticism to gain position there is northing illegal about that.
Is he not supposed to post up Mutombo and use his strength to push him back? Thats how posting up works.
Yea he got away with a few elbows from time to time but so did everyone else.
You know how many times Mutombo has elbowed people in the face the exact same way and got away it? 1000x more then Shaq.
And please, who cares that Mutombo scored 15ppg.
Shaq owned him completely and led his team to victory.

My point is that Shaq proved his 0ffensive ability against better defenders and better defenses then Wilt ever faced.

Shaq proved his worth against Prime Hakeem, DPOY Mutombo, DPOY Wallace, The Portland Defense, Prime Duncan + DRob. Nobody could stop him. Yes he had a bad series or two in his Career but so had every GOAT player including Jordan, Duncan, Kobe anyone.

You talk about the edge in FG% he had in the 62 season against the Celtics but players like Oneal and many modern day Centers have had far bigger edges in FG%.
I have already explained why the league average FG% was so much lower back then and why its not a good excuse for Chamberlains poor shooting.

Shaq was able to consistently average 30+ PPG against the best defenders of his Era on high efficiency and against much tougher defenses.

Yes he also occasionally faced poor defenses like the Nets but most of the time the opposing team had a number of solid bigmen to defend him.
The pacers for example had Dale Davis who was a huge, strong, athletic and physical defender combined with the Huge Rik Smits and the regular triple and quadruple teams the Pacers would throw at Shaq certainly did not make it easy for him.

Wilt rarely faced the consistent and constant double and triple teams Oneal did and the athletes for the most part especially outside of his own position were smaller and less athletic.

[millwad]

I get so sick-and-tired of constantly having to defend Wilt's playoff offensive numbers. He played 160 playoff games, and 1045 regular season games. Furthermore, only 52 of his 160 playoff games came in his "scoring" prime, and out of those, 30 were against Russell and the greatest dynasty in NBA history.


Jlauber, that is just pure nonsense and bullcrap..
So sick of your excuses, so what only 52 of his playoff-games were in his "scoring" prime? So are we supposed to forget the rest of the games just because Wilt didn't couldn't score as much? That is just being retarded.

Excuses like that can be used for every single player in league history. And regarding Wilt's scoring and facing Russell in the playoffs, even though Russell was a great defender Wilt had both height and weight on him and we all know defensive schemes we're nothing like the modern era back ten and we've seen that double-teaming wasn't used as often as it was used in the modern era.

BUHU, Wilt couldn't score as effective and much as Shaq and Hakeem..

[Psileas]

Please stop with the Shaq only scored because of his Size.
Wilt was far more reliant on his size and size advantage to score then Shaq was in his generation.
Shaq only scored 25-27% of his Career points on Dunks and regularly relied on very accurate Hook-Shots that went out to 10-12 feet to score.

He also relied on his strength and athleticism to gain position there is northing illegal about that.
Is he not supposed to post up Mutombo and use his strength to push him back? Thats how posting up works.

According to Harvey Pollack's guide, Shaq up to 2010 had 4,207 career dunks, meaning that he had scored 29.8% of his points from dunks. There's nothing "only" here. Just to make a few comparisons, Shawn Kemp was at 19.6%, David Robinson at 15.9% and a still young (and so often criticized for his lack of offensive moves around the basket) Dwight Howard is only marginally ahead, at 30.4%. Ben Wallace, with as zero range and offensive skill as it gets, was at 33.3% and the not exactly offensively gifted Mutombo, at 28.2%.
Add that Shaq also scored 20.8% of his points from the FT line and this means that less than half his points came from anything different from dunks/FT's, and that's not counting his lay-ups and very short range hook-shots. Anyone who has data for this kind of shooting for Shaq, it's well-appreciated, but, even without knowing them, I'd say he relied pretty much on his size. Like you said, there's nothing illegal here. Then again, why is Wilt any different? And how exactly was he far more reliant on his size and size advantage to score then Shaq was in his generation?

[32Dayz]

Anyone who has data for this kind of shooting for Shaq, it's well-appreciated, but, even without knowing them, I'd say he relied pretty much on his size. Like you said, there's nothing illegal here. Then again, why is Wilt any different? And how exactly was he far more reliant on his size and size advantage to score then Shaq was in his generation?

Shaq had very accurate Hook-Shots that went out to 10-12 feet and he used them regularly.

Shaq used those Hook-Shots less in his later years and became more of a "Dunker" but I am sure just looking at his Young and Prime years only 20-25% of his Points were coming off Dunks.

Wilt was similar to Shaq in that they both used their size to get position for easy buckets near the Basket.

It's just my personal observations of the two that Wilt generally used his size to get really easy buckets right next to the basket while Shaq was a bit more skilled and would often take hook shots from further way.
Wilt also had his little flip shots and they weren't as smooth and were less fluid.
Wilt also shot from 10-12 foot range at times but he was less accurate from that distance then Shaq was.

Perhaps the difference is not very big but its not really a big deal either way.

Personally I dont care too much about "skill" 0ffensively. Shaq was a much better scorer in the playoffs and was able to produce at a higher level with better efficiency and consistently against pretty much any opponent/defense.

[Psileas]

Shaq had very accurate Hook-Shots that went out to 10-12 feet and he used them regularly.

Shaq used those Hook-Shots less in his later years and became more of a "Dunker" but I am sure just looking at his Young and Prime years only 20-25% of his Points were coming off Dunks.

Wilt was similar to Shaq in that they both used their size to get position for easy buckets near the Basket.

It's just my personal observations of the two that Wilt generally used his size to get really easy buckets right next to the basket while Shaq was a bit more skilled and would often take hook shots from further way.

I doubt you'd observe the same thing if you watched more films of early 60's Wilt and less of late 60's-early 70's Wilt. Unfortunately, there's not enough overall Wilt footage, but I'm willing to bet he didn't score almost 30% of his points off dunks.
You estimate that young-prime Shaq's points came less off dunks? Maybe prime Shaq's, when it was the period he used to a high degree his hook-shots, but Orlando Shaq? I highly doubt it. There's no way his dunking numbers were inflated that much from his last, significantly less prolific seasons.


Wilt also had his little flip shots and they weren't as smooth and were less fluid.
Wilt also shot from 10-12 foot range at times but he was less accurate from that distance then Shaq was.

There's no way to tell Shaq was more accurate, unless you watched him play a lot. If you ask their peers, though, you'll hear Wilt getting more praise for his near mid-range shooting than Shaq.


Personally I dont care too much about "skill" 0ffensively. Shaq was a much better scorer in the playoffs and was able to produce at a higher level with better efficiency and consistently against pretty much any opponent/defense.

I've already posted Shaq's numbers against certain opponents in the playoffs and, while still impressive, they were not, on average, on par with his best. Wilt's 22.5 ppg playoff average is skewed, as it has been mentioned plenty of times - 67 out of his 160 playoff games came against Russell or Thurmond, and that's while ignoring him changing offensive roles. You think Shaq would have equally impressive playoff scoring outputs with his actual if he faced prime Spurs or a team like the early 00's Blazers in 90 of his 216 playoff games?

[32Dayz]

Orlando Shaq? I highly doubt it. There's no way his dunking numbers were inflated that much from his last, significantly less prolific seasons.

There's no way to tell Shaq was more accurate, unless you watched him play a lot.

I've already posted Shaq's numbers against certain opponents in the playoffs and, while still impressive, they were not, on average, on par with his best. Wilt's 22.5 ppg playoff average is skewed, as it has been mentioned plenty of times - 67 out of his 160 playoff games came against Russell or Thurmond, and that's while ignoring him changing offensive roles. You think Shaq would have equally impressive playoff scoring outputs with his actual if he faced prime Spurs or a team like the early 00's Blazers in 90 of his 216 playoff games?

Agree with the Bolded Part.

What opponents?

Because he had maybe one subpar series against the Spurs and one against the Jazz in the late 90's that's what he should be defined by? Like I posted earlier every GOAT player has atleast a couple of poor playoff series under their belt.

Shaq was probably the most consistent and had the least amount of them of any GOAT player including Jordan but even he had one or two bad series.
He rarely underperformed in the Playoffs and even in defeat was usually the best player on the Court or at worst still put up a very impressive and dominating performance on the way out.

He was Dominate VS Hakeem and the Loaded 95 Rockets.
He was Dominate VS DPOY Mutombo and the #1 League-Wise Defensive Team Philadelphia.
He was Dominate on countless occasions and in numerous series vs Prime Duncan and DRob.

How exactly wasn't he Dominate against the best competition?

He proved there was no defense or defensive player who could even hope to defend him.

Maybe you think because the league had less teams Wilt had it harder and I can respect that opinion but I disagree.

Shaq was in a bigger and more lucrative league that had more talent overall and thus ended up playing against tougher defenses and better defenders.

Defensive schemes were also much better and I believe he had to face more double/triple + teams then Wilt did.

In regards to Shaq in his Orlando years he had already developed that very accurate fluid hook shot by 95.

If you watch the 1995 Finalz you'll see him using it constantly and its very effective and accurate. I believe in a way he was trying to imitate Hakeem.

[Psileas]

Agree with the Bolded Part.

What opponents?

Because he had maybe one subpar series against the Spurs and one against the Jazz in the late 90's that's what he should be defined by? Like I posted earlier every GOAT player has atleast a couple of poor playoff series under their belt.

Shaq was probably the most consistent and had the least amount of them of any GOAT player including Jordan but even he had one or two bad series.
He rarely underperformed in the Playoffs and even in defeat was usually the best player on the Court or at worst still put up a very impressive and dominating performance on the way out.

He was Dominate VS Hakeem and the Loaded 95 Rockets.
He was Dominate VS DPOY Mutombo and the #1 League-Wise Defensive Team Philadelphia.
He was Dominate on countless occasions and in numerous series vs Prime Duncan and DRob.

How exactly wasn't he Dominate against the best competition?

He proved there was no defense or defensive player who could even hope to defend him.

Maybe you think because the league had less teams Wilt had it harder and I can respect that opinion but I disagree.

Shaq was in a bigger and more lucrative league that had more talent overall and thus ended up playing against tougher defenses and better defenders.

Defensive schemes were also much better and I believe he had to face more double/triple + teams then Wilt did.

In regards to Shaq in his Orlando years he had already developed that very accurate fluid hook shot by 95.

If you watch the 1995 Finalz you'll see him using it constantly and its very effective and accurate. I believe in a way he was trying to imitate Hakeem.

If you find no significant differences in how Shaq fared against the Spurs or the early 00's Blazers compared to against the Kings or Rik Smits on his last legs, I don't feel the need to find any significant differences in how Wilt fared against Russell or Thurmond compared to against the Royals or the Lakers.
Hey, Wilt in his series against Russell averaged 31/28, 35/25/3, 29/28, 30/32/3, 29/30/3, 22/32/10, 22/25/7 and 12/25/3. How isn't this "dominate"?

[32Dayz]

Well obviously a player is going to have an easier time "Dominating" against weaker opponents.

I cant disagree with obvious logic like that.

However I can easily prove that Shaq on numerous occasions (most occasions) "Dominated" against the toughest defenders and teams of his Era.

It was an anomaly or a rarity that Prime Shaq or even Young Shaq would have a bad playoff series.

He was probably the most "consistent" player ever when it came to simply always performing well in the PSeason.

Not saying Wilt didnt have some good series also but when looking at his PSeasons as a scorer he doesnt appear to be on the same level as the Shaq's/Jordan's and Kareem's.

Doesn't mean he is way below them either but I see a stark difference.

All three of those players were far more efficiency/consistent on similar or better volume.

I am sure Wilt had some very good series against Russell although it would be helpful if you included the shooting %'s of himself in those series.

:cheers:

[La Frescobaldi]

Well obviously a player is going to have an easier time "Dominating" against weaker opponents.

I cant disagree with obvious logic like that.

However I can easily prove that Shaq on numerous occasions (most occasions) "Dominated" against the toughest defenders and teams of his Era.

but when looking at his PSeasons as a scorer he doesnt appear to be on the same level as the Shaq's/Jordan's and Kareem's.

:cheers:

I'd be interested.. Let's hear the story of The Six Sweeps of Shaq

[32Dayz]

I'd be interested.. Let's hear the story of The Six Sweeps of Shaq

When Shaq got swept in the playoffs it was usually because his supporting Casts sucked bawls and played terribly.

Pretty much every ATGreat has lost 6+ times in the playoffs.

Shaq only once failed to lead his team past the first round while most ATGreats have lost multiple times in the 1st round.

Its better to get swept in the 2nd Round, CNFinalz or Finalz then it is to lose in 5-7 games in the first round.

If Jordan was so great how come he lost 7 times in the playoffs.
How come he got swept 3 times in the first round?
How come he got swept by the Shaq led Magic in 95?

Trying to judge individuals by team failures or even successes is very stupid imo.

Shaq was usually the best player in those series in which they got "swept".

I can describe for you and show you (statistically) how amazing Shaq was in those series you are referring to later if you desire. I am pretty sure I already did and have them written down somewhere.

Dont feel like digging this second but I will find it later.

[La Frescobaldi]

When Shaq got swept in the playoffs it was usually because his supporting Casts sucked bawls and played terribly.

Pretty much every ATGreat has lost 6+ times in the playoffs.

Shaq only once failed to lead his team past the first round while most ATGreats have lost multiple times in the 1st round.

Its better to get swept in the 2nd Round, CNFinalz or Finalz then it is to lose in 5-7 games in the first round.

If Jordan was so great how come he lost 7 times in the playoffs.
How come he got swept 3 times in the first round?
How come he got swept by the Shaq led Magic in 95?

Trying to judge individuals by team failures or even successes is very stupid imo.

Shaq was usually the best player in those series in which they got "swept".

I can describe for you and show you (statistically) how amazing Shaq was in those series you are referring to later if you desire. I am pretty sure I already did and have them written down somewhere.

Dont feel like digging this second but I will find it later.

Oh I absolutely agree with all that. It's the unfair, unrelenting, unmitigated double standard that I see all the time on ISH.

The double standard I'm talking about is Bill Russell's 11 rings, and it gets applied constantly to Wilt Chamberlain but not to Shaq, Jordan, or (insert name ______).

Chamberlain the choker. Chamberlain got schooled by Russell. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc................ Every bit of that is crap, just like it is for Shaq, Jordan, or any other great player.

I watched the 67 through 69 playoffs, not every game, but quite a few. I remember the injuries to Chamberlain's teammates in the playoffs, and to Chamberlain himself. Anybody think Kendrick Perkins falling in the 2010 Finals had no impact on the Celtics/ Lakers matchup?

Guys that call Wilt a choker are either boston stans , haters, or didn't watch those teams play.

[ThaRegul8r]

I have read nonsense such as if you transported Wilt's '62 numbers to today, he would be a 25-13 guy.

Dean Oliver said Wilt's 1961-62 season adjusted for pace was equivalent to Jordan's 1986-87 season. Since he has no vested interest in the matter, I put a hell of a lot more stock in what he has to say about it than agenda-driven people on both sides of the fence.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'd be interested.. Let's hear the story of The Six Sweeps of Shaq

He got swept 6 times? :eek:

'94 pacers
'95 rockets
'96 pistons
'98 jazz
'99 spurs
'07 bulls

nvm, he did

[La Frescobaldi]

Dean Oliver said Wilt's 1961-62 season adjusted for pace was equivalent to Jordan's 1986-87 season. Since he has no vested interest in the matter, I put a hell of a lot more stock in what he has to say about it than agenda-driven people on both sides of the fence.

true enough about agenda driven and i'm probably just as biased as anybody.

But this......

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 37.1
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.0
3. Alex English*-DEN 28.6
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 28.1
5. Kiki Vandeweghe-POR 26.9


is not totally destroying the league's elite scorers, like this.

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 50.4
2. Walt Bellamy*-CHP 31.6
3. Bob Pettit*-STL 31.1
4. Jerry West*-LAL 30.8
5. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 30.8

It's an absurdity to say that Wilt scored 37ppg at a 1987 adjusted pace. That would mean Walt Bellamy, the second leading scorer in 1962 who had a monster season, got 22ppg. It would mean that 1962, the highest scoring pace season in history, was actually a early 1950s scoring pace.

The thing I notice that gets forgot when everybody talks about elite scorers. Every year, decade after decade, the elite - the greatest scorers - of the NBA throw in between 25 and 35 points a game.

hit this link basketball reference.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1962.html

the points leaders are listed bottom left.

Go next season, and look at 1963

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-SFW 44.8
2. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 34.0
3. Bob Pettit*-STL 28.4
4. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 28.3
5. Walt Bellamy*-CHZ 27.9


look at 1973
Points Per Game
1. Tiny Archibald*-KCO 34.0
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*-MIL 30.2
3. Spencer Haywood-SEA 29.2
4. Lou Hudson-ATL 27.1
5. Pete Maravich*-ATL 26.1

1983

Points Per Game
1. Alex English*-DEN 28.4
2. Kiki Vandeweghe-DEN 26.7
3. Kelly Tripucka-DET 26.5
4. George Gervin*-SAS 26.2
5. Moses Malone*-PHI 24.5

1993

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone*-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6

2003

1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 32.1
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 30.0
3. Allen Iverson-PHI 27.6
4. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 27.5
5. Paul Pierce-BOS 25.9


If you take Chamberlain out of the equation, the early 1960s looks just like any other year in any other era. The leaders are within a few points of each other, and always within the "elite" scoring range of about 25 to 35 points a game.

Chamberlain's 1960 rookie year looks almost normal by comparison.

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 37.6
2. Jack Twyman*-CIN 31.2
3. Elgin Baylor*-MNL 29.6
4. Bob Pettit*-STL 26.1
5. Cliff Hagan*-STL 24.

So we can talk about pace, defense or whatever we want to {like another question that doesn't ever get asked - if you take Chamberlain's 4000 points out of the '62 league's numbers, what does the league suddenly look like? any other year......}.


The simple fact remains, nobody has ever blasted their nearest rival by a margin of 50 to 31, or 44 to 34

It's like 1920, with Babe Ruth hitting more home runs than any team in MLB except 1.

It could be pure coincidence that the year Chamberlain entered the league, team points averages jumped 1000 over the season before. I tend to think it was because an athlete of Babe Ruth's skills suddenly showed up.

Dean Oliver has more explaining to do before I will try to eat that 1000lb tuna

[ThaRegul8r]

Dean Oliver said Wilt's 1961-62 season adjusted for pace was equivalent to Jordan's 1986-87 season. Since he has no vested interest in the matter, I put a hell of a lot more stock in what he has to say about it than agenda-driven people on both sides of the fence.

true enough about agenda driven and i'm probably just as biased as anybody.

Since you readily acknowledge this, I will take anything you say with a grain of salt. And notice I said "on both sides of the fence." Which also includes those on the other side of the fence as yourself. I am equal opportunity.


But this......

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 37.1
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.0
3. Alex English*-DEN 28.6
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 28.1
5. Kiki Vandeweghe-POR 26.9


is not totally destroying the league's elite scorers, like this.

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 50.4
2. Walt Bellamy*-CHP 31.6
3. Bob Pettit*-STL 31.1
4. Jerry West*-LAL 30.8
5. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 30.8

It's an absurdity to say that Wilt scored 37ppg at a 1987 adjusted pace.

No, you just don't understand it. Wilt played literally every minute of every game (48.5 to Bellamy's 42.3, which comes out to 10 full games worth of minutes more than Bellamy, while such a difference did not exist between Jordan and Wilkins), and owner Eddie Gottlieb was specifically interested in having him score as much as possible, with the team following this directive

[Collie]

When Shaq got swept in the playoffs it was usually because his supporting Casts sucked bawls and played terribly.

Pretty much every ATGreat has lost 6+ times in the playoffs.

Shaq only once failed to lead his team past the first round while most ATGreats have lost multiple times in the 1st round.

Its better to get swept in the 2nd Round, CNFinalz or Finalz then it is to lose in 5-7 games in the first round.

If Jordan was so great how come he lost 7 times in the playoffs.
How come he got swept 3 times in the first round?
How come he got swept by the Shaq led Magic in 95?

Trying to judge individuals by team failures or even successes is very stupid imo.

Shaq was usually the best player in those series in which they got "swept".

I can describe for you and show you (statistically) how amazing Shaq was in those series you are referring to later if you desire. I am pretty sure I already did and have them written down somewhere.

Dont feel like digging this second but I will find it later.

They weren't swept dude... They lost in 6 as massive underdogs.

[Pointguard]

Most of what your saying is just your opinion and far from provable. Just because it isn't provable doesn't mean it isn't true. Wilt is longer, stronger, more powerful than they were. He would have more practice time, he would get more calls. He definitely seemed way faster then them all and none of them were polished scorers. Where is your point of contention?



This so called "separation" didn't really exist except for his scoring and that was because of unique circumstances which I list right below this.
(Team 0ffense that was based on force feeding him the ball everytime down the floor, playing heavy minutes, high number of possessions, high number of 0ffensive rebounds available / tipins.)
All of the best centers had the offense ran thru them. No? The separation was exceptional in rebounds as well. You didn't know this? Wilt had a three 3 rebound lead on Russell who that had the greatest rebound separation ever, a six and a half rebound lead on the league a year before Wilt arrived. If Russell wasn't so great Wilt would have had 10rpg lead in 1962. The separation between the top rebounder and the third in 62 was right there almost equal to Shaq rpg in 02 and 99 - two of Shaq's prime years. The super exceptional rebounders were there with Wilt - the pack never was there with Wilt.



% Wise Wilt did not rebound significantly better then Oneal or Duncan or any of the Modern Centers and 0ffensively he is certainly no where near the likes of the Jordan, Shaqs or Kareems who were able to combine high level 0ffensive Volume with excellent efficiency consistently over many years in the playoffs. Excellence is relative. And Wilt was excellent during his time. You keep trying to change that. You are using a league that pumps up offense from the league office to officiating down to the players. Back then it was the opposite. Wilt couldn't hop, skip, two and half steps on the layup, get the plow down call etc.


Wilt (0ffensively) (in the Playoffs) had maybe 2 seasons that were somewhat onpar statistically with an average season by Prime Jordan/Shaq/Kareem and the rest of his seasons dont even come close, over a career or 5+ years he cannot compete 0ffensively against those type of players. You severely overrate him as an 0ffensive player.

It just gets worse and worse for you. "an average season?" Do you even know what you are saying half the time? In Shaq and Kareem's best years they aren't touching this.

1960... 33.2... 25.8
61....... 37..... 23
62....... 35..... 26
64.......34.7... 25
65.......29.3... 27.2
66.......28......30.2
These are playoff numbers. Kareem could get close to the points, but I guarantee you that if the other 7 players on their teams are shooting in the lower part of the 300% it would have been a lot harder on Kareem and Shaq.



Is he anywhere near as athletic as Young or Prime Shaq? Doubt it.

Do you think Shaq could at any point in his life run a 50 mile marathon (Wilt was doing this at 55). Triple jump 50feet? High jump 6feet 6 inches to win the Big Eight competition that year? Run the 440 in 49 seconds? Shot put 53 feet? Broad jump 22 feet? Run the 880 in 1:58? Do a flag pole?

Take three steps and dunk from the foul line as per Tex Winters? Play 48 minutes at the Pheonix Suns top speed? Shaq had trouble boxing out. I doubt that there is anything that Shaq could do that Wilt couldn't. As far as proven athleticism Shaq isn't anywhere near him. Now in your imagination I'm sure a lot of other things happen.


Even DRob appears to be far more athletic then Wilt was and skill wise there is no comparison between the two.
DRob is 100x more skilled then Wilt ever was. Even Shaq to me was far more coordinated and much more fluid/smooth with his post moves then Wilt was who at times seemed very herky jerky.
DRob almost did everything off of his athleticism. Not to be offensive, but I really doubt that you know what skilled means.


The only skills im comfortable saying Wilt would excel in today is rebounding and defense. 0ffensively I dont think he even approaches the likes of Shaq, Jordan and Kareem.

:lol
Boxing out, anticipation, timing, jumpshot, creativity, setting picks, blocking, blocking and getting back into position, variety of shots, pacing, interpersonal skills - Shaq and Kareem weren't in his league.


Again you keep making excuses for his FT Shooting. I know Shaq was bad at it but Wilt was much worse. Thats simply a fact and you should accept it. Shaq never had a stretch of FT shooting during his young or prime years as long or as bad as Wilt did and over a Career the difference is obvious.
I never made an excuse for Wilt's foul shooting. I just don't see it as a criteria for judging centers. Shaq, Russell and Wilt were all horrendous FT shooters and ironically they are arguably the top 3 centers of all time (I have Kareem in there but some don't). Wilt shot 511 and Shaq 527 so the difference isn't great at all. Relative to the league percentage during their times they are about dead even. In Wilt's time they didn't have a lot of time to practice FT shooting. Shaq's FT shooting was more costly than Wilts because of the way FT's were handled (i.e. the two for three and two for one's).


This isn't a diss on him and he still makes my Top 5 GOAT list but honestly from watching video of him and statistically his 0ffensive ability does not impress me.
Well you haven't seen the real videos. And that you should know.

[La Frescobaldi]

Absolutely. Anyone that says they're not biased immediately gets my undivided suspicion.
But what's this? Wilt = only guy in history to go 48 minutes. Of course that's a factor in those numbers.
So are we saying since nobody can play 48 mpg Wilt can't either?

Even though he did

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]
No, you just don't understand it. Wilt played literally every minute of every game (48.5 to Bellamy's 42.3, which comes out to 10 full games worth of minutes more than Bellamy, while such a difference did not exist between Jordan and Wilkins), and owner Eddie Gottlieb was specifically interested in having him score as much as possible, with the team following this directive

[Pointguard]

The pace argument, is another one I disagree with. Its like saying :lol Nash shouldn't be credited with his assist titles and therefore his MVP's. You also should have league and referee factors as well. After awhile it just gets silly. What happens in 48 minutes happens.

Wilt was playing the whole game and was the leader in the second most important stat of the game as well. Wilt was going hard for 48 minutes all over the court.

[jlauber]

Dean Oliver said Wilt's 1961-62 season adjusted for pace was equivalent to Jordan's 1986-87 season. Since he has no vested interest in the matter, I put a hell of a lot more stock in what he has to say about it than agenda-driven people on both sides of the fence.

I would like to see his "formula" for that claim. I personally don't have a real problem with "adjusting" Wilt's scoring to around 37 ppg in '87, but I suspect that he didn't adjust Chamberlain's FG% in his equation. In '62, (as you would know, but other's may not), Wilt shot .506 in a league that shot .426. In '87, MJ shot .482 in a league that shot .480. If Oliver is going to reduce Wilt's scoring based on lower FGA and FTA's, then he should also raise Chamberlain's FG% relative to the league. In doing so, Wilt's FG% would rise from .506 to about .570...and that would result in about two more made FGAs per game.

In any case, in '87, MJ took a larger percentage of his team's shots, per minute played, than Chamberlain did in '62. And, those that reduce Wilt's playing time from 48 mpg to 42 mpg, or so, also need to accept the fact that Wilt's overall efficiency would increase, as well. And, especially over the course of 80-82 games.



I am sure Wilt had some very good series against Russell although it would be helpful if you included the shooting %'s of himself in those series.

Thanks to other's here, like ThaRegul8r and Psileas, we have a few of their post-season H2H's. In '62, Chamberlain averaged 33.6 ppg, and shot .468 against Boston in the playoffs. Now, before someone jumps in and claims that that was proof that Wilt "declined" in the post-season (since he averaged 50 ppg on .506 shooting in his overall regular season), in their regular season H2H's, Wilt averaged 38 ppg on .470 shooting against Russell. And, keep in mind that overall scoring dropped in the post-season from 119 ppg down to 113 in the post-season, and FG% dropped from .426 down to .411 in the playoffs.

BTW, while I don't have Russell's FG% in the '62 ECF's (ThaRegul8r probably does), it must have been around .420 (since ThaRegul8r has him at .500 in the seven game Finals.) Which would have been a drop from Russell's regular season of .457.

In the 63-64 Finals, Wilt averaged 29.2 ppg, on .517 against Russell and the Celtics. Here again, it was a slight drop from his 33.3 ppg regular season average against Russell (although I don't know what Wilt shot against him in the regular seasons.) Overall, in the regular season, Chamberlain averaged 36.9 ppg and shot .524, in a league that averaged 111 ppg and shot .433. However, in the post-season, those numbers dropped to 105.8 ppg and on .420 shooting. Obviously Russell did a solid job on Wilt, as he almost always did, but he certainly didn't "dominate" him. Incidently, think about Wilt's playoff numbers that season. 34.7 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and on .543 shooting...in a post-season which averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting. He was, as almost always, WAY over the league average in FG%.

BTW, I don't have Russell's FG% in the Finals against Wilt that year, (here again, maybe ThaRegul8r can provide it), but overall in the playoffs, Russell shot .356...and five of his ten post-season games were against Chamberlain.


In the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston and Russell, Chamberlain averaged 28 ppg on .509 (and BTW, 30.2 rpg.) Now, while Chamberlain averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 against the entire NBA in the regular season, his scoring actually increased from 25.3 ppg in the regular season against Russell, to that figure of 28 ppg. Incidently, Russell averaged 14.0 ppg (and 26.2 rpg) against Chamberlain in that series, but then he LED Boston in scoring in the Finals against the Lakers, with a 23.6 ppg average. Oh, and BTW, Wilt "the choker" put up a 46 point game, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds in that clinching game five loss against Boston. And, while Chamberlain shot .509 in that series, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .352.

That was the end of Wilt's "scoring" prime. From his 66-67 season, on, Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting (although he continued to put up the NBA single game high's from '67 thru '69.)

Still, in the '67 ECF's, Chamberlain averaged 21.6 ppg, on .556 shooting (along with an incredible 32 rpg) against Russell. And while those scoring and especially his FG% was a solid decline from his regular season numbers of 24.1 ppg and on a phenomenal .683 FG%, it must be noted that in their nine regular season H2H's, Wilt averaged 20.3 ppg on .549 shooting against Russell (and BTW, 20.7 ppg on .560 shooting against Thurmond.)

Oh, meanwhile, Russell averaged 10.2 ppg on .358 shooting against Wilt in that series...which was a considerable drop from his regular NBA season marks of 13.3 ppg on .454 shooting. (And here again, Nate averaged 14.3 ppg on .343 shooting against Chamberlain in the Finals.)


I don't have the H2H post-season FG%'s, of Chamberlain's '60 ECF's, '65 ECF's, '68 ECF's, and '69 Finals, against Russell. But, as Psileas pointed out, here were his scoring and rebounding numbers in those post-season series:
In the '60 ECF's, Wilt averaged 30.5 ppg and 27.5 rpg against Russell. However, Wilt badly injured his hand in retaliation for the brutal pounding he was taking in game three, and he had arguably his worst post-season game ever, in game four. He only scored 12 points, with 15 rebounds, while Russell put up a 26-39 game on him. It was also probably Russell's most dominant post-season game ever against Chamberlain. BUT, a healthy Wilt returned in a "must-win" game five (down 3-1), and he responded with a 50 point, 35 rebound game (on 22-42 shooting.)

In the 64-65 ECF's, Wilt took his 40-40 Sixers to a game seven, one point loss against Russell's 62-18 Celtics. In that series, Wilt averaged a 30-31 series (30.1 ppg and 31.6 rpg) compared to Russell's 15.6 ppg and 25.3 rpg. I don't have Wilt's overall FG% in that series, but Russell shot .451 against Wilt...which was probably his career playoff high against Chamberlain. BTW, Russell went on to average 18 ppg, 29 rpg, and shoot an astonomical .702 against the Lakers in the Finals. Incidently, Wilt "the choker" had a game seven against Russell, of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting from the field, with 32 rebounds. Included in those 30 points, were six of Philly's last eight points, in a comeback from a 110-101 deficit to 110-109 (oh, and BTW, Wilt went 2-2 from the line in that span.)

In the 67-68 ECF's, Chamberlain was hobbled by SEVERAL knee and foot injuries, and game recaps had his NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru the rest of that seven game series. Which would certainly explain Wilt's horrible shooting in game six (6-21 from the field, and 8-23 from the line.) Still, Wilt outscored Russell, per game in that series, 22.1 ppg to 13.7 ppg, and outrebounded Russell, per game, 25.1 rpg to 23.9 rpg. All in all, it may have been Russell's finest post-season series against Chamberlain.

And, in Russell's last season, in 68-69, and in the Finals, Russell took his 48-34 Celtics to an upset of Wilt's 55-27 Lakers. However, Chamberlain was shackled by an incompetent coach, as well as very poor play from Baylor and one bone-headed play by Johnny Egan, which probably cost LA a 4-1 series win. Overall, Chamberlain only averaged 11.7 ppg (Russell was at 9.0 ppg), but he still outrebounded Russell, per game, 25.0 rpg to 21.1 rpg. Once again, I don't have their H2H FG%'s, but in game seven, Wilt "the choker" outscored Russell, 18-6, outrebounded Russell, 27-21, and outshot Russell from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7.

Hope that helps.

[ThaRegul8r]

I find it interesting that I initially responded to a post talking about those who say that Wilt's '61-62 would translate to less than 30 points by modern pace, which I refuted, but some people aren't satisfied. Which is why I don't care about extremists on both sides on the fence.

And, no, he didn't go hard "all over" the court. I recall Wilt himself saying that it wasn't possible to go all out on offense and defense simultaneously, and thus had to pace himself on the defensive end. Contemporaries around the league at the time said he improved on defense later in his career

[ThaRegul8r]

In any case, in '87, MJ took a larger percentage of his team's shots, per minute played, than Chamberlain did in '62.

This is correct, and Oliver noted this.

[D-Wade316]

This is correct, and Oliver noted this.
USG%? I really would like to know the exact value. That would also mean Wilt took less than 38.3% of the available shots when he was on the floor.

[jlauber]

I find it interesting that I initially responded to a post talking about those who say that Wilt's '61-62 would translate to less than 30 points by modern pace, which I refuted, but some people aren't satisfied. Which is why I don't care about extremists on both sides on the fence.

And, no, he didn't go hard "all over" the court. I recall Wilt himself saying that it wasn't possible to go all out on offense and defense simultaneously, and thus had to pace himself on the defensive end. Contemporaries around the league at the time said he improved on defense later in his career—there are about eight names that come to my mind off the top of my head who have said this that I remember. When people use hyperbole, they actually give detractors ammunition, when they said, "Well, why didn't he do more if he was all that?" And you know there are people who look to diminish past players anyway.

I am not directing my response at you, but just in general:

Once again, we have no way of knowing what a prime Chamberlain would have scored or shot in the current NBA (or in '87.) We can use "the bridge" Kareem to give us some kind of idea, though.

I personally believe a prime Wilt, asked to carry an offense, would probably be around 30-35 ppg. And, playing less minutes, and in a more efficient era (especially the 80's, when other great centers were off the charts in FG%'s..including those that would play in the 90's), I suspect that he would be around 60% from the field. And he would easily be the best rebounder in the league, and probably at around 17-18 rpg. BTW, I don't see Chamberlain allowing Rodman to outrebound him in any season. (Oh, and for those that diminish Wilt's scoring, based on his drop in the post-season, Wilt actually elevated his post-season rebounding considerably, while Rodman shrank dramatically in the post-season.)

However, if Chamberlain were to play with average to good rosters, much like the last half of his actual career, I would suspect that a prime Wilt would be around a 20-25 ppg, .600+, 18 rpg, 6 apg, 5 bpg, player...while dominating defensively.

In any case, I just don't see how anyone could claim that a 7-2 Wilt (and around 7-3 using today's measuring system), with a 7-8 wingspan, and between 275-300 lbs, with his amazing vertical (we now have YouTube footage of a young Wilt, with a straight-up split-second leap, nearly reaching the top of the backboard), with sprinter's speed (yes, he was on KU's 4x100 relay team), with astonishing strength, and with proven skills (more-and-more YouTube footage is demonstrating that fact...as well as first-hand accounts by a HOF coach)...would not be a dominant player in today's NBA.

Same with Russell (a world-class high-jumper with an enormous wingspan), and Thurmond, (who supposedly had a higher standing reach than Chamberlain) who routinely reduced Kareem to a horrible shooting percentages. And players like Lanier, Cowens, Gilmore, Reed (very similar to Zach Randolph), Bellamy, McAdoo, and probably some other's that I missed, would also be very good players in today's NBA, as well.

[32Dayz]

Prime Wilt would be around a
20-25 ppg, .49-.52%, 13-15 rpg, 2-3 apg, 2-3 bpg, player...while being a very good defensive anchor.

Changed the stats to what I think he would average.

Obviously he would be Dominant I dont think anyone said or implied differently J.

[Pointguard]

And, no, he didn't go hard "all over" the court. I recall Wilt himself saying that it wasn't possible to go all out on offense and defense simultaneously, and thus had to pace himself on the defensive end. Contemporaries around the league at the time said he improved on defense later in his career—there are about eight names that come to my mind off the top of my head who have said this that I remember. When people use hyperbole, they actually give detractors ammunition, when they said, "Well, why didn't he do more if he was all that?" And you know there are people who look to diminish past players anyway.

I don't know why "going hard" struck a nerve with you...
so Wilt was taking it easy and rocking 50 and 26? And then you wonder why people diminish past players when they demo 50 and 26 because people are acting like pace and mpg are factors that reign superior over actually making points and getting rebounds. Like effort and skill isn't part of every production that happens on the court. People are even blaming coaching, even tho Wilt's crazy rebounding is part of the conversation as well.

I know for sure I heard, incidentally btw, where Wilt blocked at least 9 shots during this campaign on two separate occasions. One is the Bellamy welcoming party where he blocked him nine times consecutively.

Since I fully recall Rodman's rebound craze at 18 per game and Jordan's 37 per game foray. And I recall their activity level and effort being off of the hook. (and the ball went thru Jordan in practically all of the half court sets, Jordan was told to go off as much as possible too). Wilt averaged almost a third more of both of their productions in the same year. Those who know the game will appreciate that for what it is. Others will always distract.

[32Dayz]

Well yea he averaged 50.

He also averaged 40 FGAttempts PGame and 18 FT's.

Again it was the pace of the league (number of possesions avaliable) combined with weak guard play (extra 0ffensive rebounds/tipins) + a coach who wanted to feed Wilt everytime down the court and have him score as much as possible and probably didnt even care if he ran back down the court to play defense.

I heard in that game where he scored 100 he didnt even run back to play defense he just stayed on the other end to cherry pick baskets.

Not gonna diss him as a rebounder though as I believe he was one of the best if not the best rebounder ever.

[La Frescobaldi]

Prime Wilt would be around a
20-25 ppg, .49-.52%, 13-15 rpg, 2-3 apg, 2-3 bpg, player...while being a very good defensive anchor.

Changed the stats to what I think he would average.

Obviously he would be Dominant I dont think anyone said or implied differently J.

Completely depends on the team.
If he's on the Pacers there's factors to consider compared to if hes on the Knicks. Is the pg D Rose or D Fish?
As Regulatar perfectly points out, Chamberlain had an entire team strategy designed to get the ball to the center. Not much question in my mind that Warriors squad was the most unselfish set of NBA players in the galaxy. A center has to get a pass to score....
But just throwing some #s out without saying "2010 Heat" or "with Baron and Blake".... There's no meaning there, imo

[Pointguard]

I heard in that game where he scored 100 he didnt even run back to play defense he just stayed on the other end to cherry pick baskets.


And what else did Elmo tell you?

[32Dayz]

And what else did Elmo tell you?

He told me he likes yogurt.

:lol

[jlauber]

I have also read that Wilt's defense was not considered nearly as great, early in his career, as in later years, but here are some interesting numbers.

In Wilt's rookie season, in 59-60, he faced Russell in 11 H2H games. We have the numbers for the first ten games between them. Chamberlain shot .465 against Russell (and overall he was at a career low .461 for the entire season), while Chamberlain held Russell to .398 shooting in those ten known games (in a season in which Russell shot a career high .467 overall.)

In the playoffs that season, Wilt held Red Kerr to .296 shooting.

In the '62 playoffs, Chamberlain held Kerr to .376 shooting.

In the '62 ECF's, Chamberlain held Russell to around .420 shooting, in a season in which Russell shot .457.

Pointguard noted Chamberlain blocking Bellamy's first nine shots in their initial encounter, and holding him scoreless for an entire half...in a year in which Bellamy averaged 31.6 ppg on .519 shooting.

In the '63-64 season, Wilt had a Defensive Win Share rating of 10.58, which was his second best season of his career (behind his 67-68 rating of 10.73), and which is the eighth best season of all-time (Russell holds the top-6 BTW.)

Of course, from the middle of his career, until he retired, he was a defensive monster.

There is a recorded game in the '65 season, in which Wilt held Russell to 0-14 shooting.

In the 66-67 ECF's, Chamberlain held Russell to .358 shooting (in a season in which Russell shot .454 overall.) Then, in the Finals, he outshot Thurmond by a staggering .560 to .343 margin (in a season in which Nate shot .437.)

In the 67-68 playoffs, Chamberlain held Bellamy, who had shot .541 in the regular season, to .421 shooting.

In a nationally televised game on Christmas day in 1968, Chamberlain RECORDED 23 blocked shots.

In the 68-69 playoffs, Wilt outshot Thurmond, .500 to .392.

In their only meeting in the 69-70 season, Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Abdul-Jabbar, 25-20; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.

In the 70-71 regular season, in five H2H meetings (and only a year removed from major knee surgery), Chamberlain held Kareem to .437 shooting. Then, in the WCF's, he held Kareem to 25 ppg (in a season in which he averaged 31.7 ppg), and on .481 shooting (in a season in which Kareem shot .577.)

In the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to .457 shooting, including .414 over the course of the last four games of that series.

In Wilt's LAST season, 72-73, he outshot Kareem, in their six regular season H2H's, .737 to .450.

And in the '73 WCF's, Wilt outshot Thurmond, .550 to .398 (while outrebounding him, 23.6 to 17.2.)

[Pointguard]

USG%? I really would like to know the exact value. That would also mean Wilt took less than 38.3% of the available shots when he was on the floor.

Ha, did Wilt get off of the floor? Should be pretty easy to research actually. Unless the number is very close.

[jlauber]

Well yea he averaged 50.

He also averaged 40 FGAttempts PGame and 18 FT's.

Again it was the pace of the league (number of possesions avaliable) combined with weak guard play (extra 0ffensive rebounds/tipins) + a coach who wanted to feed Wilt everytime down the court and have him score as much as possible and probably didnt even care if he ran back down the court to play defense.

I heard in that game where he scored 100 he didnt even run back to play defense he just stayed on the other end to cherry pick baskets.

Not gonna diss him as a rebounder though as I believe he was one of the best if not the best rebounder ever.

Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting in his 62-63 season. Along the way he handed out 3.4 apg...which is all the more impressive when you factor in that his cast of clowns roster couldn't hit throw a pea in the ocean from a lifeboat (they collectively shot .412...and the WORST team shot .427 that season.)

And in Wilt's '65-66 season, he averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting (in a league that shot .433)...and STILL averaged 5.2 apg. BTW, ALL of those numbers are better than ANY single season by Hakeem, who played in leagues that shot far better from the field.

[Pointguard]

He told me he likes yogurt.

:lol
Touche
:cheers:

[ThaRegul8r]

I don't know why "going hard" struck a nerve with you...

It didn't "strike a nerve." I pointed it out as a statement of fact, same as when I pointed out that even accounting for pace it wouldn't be under 30 points a game, as some assert.



so Wilt was taking it easy and rocking 50 and 26?

Strawman. I hate when people do this.


And then you wonder why people diminish past players when they demo 50 and 26 because people are acting like pace and mpg are factors that reign superior over actually making points and getting rebounds.

People diminish past players because they have agendas which involve tearing down anyone who came before whenever they began watching basketball in order to prop up their current favorite.


I know for sure I heard, incidentally btw, where Wilt blocked at least 9 shots during this campaign on two separate occasions. One is the Bellamy welcoming party where he blocked him nine times consecutively.

I'm aware of this, and know this from first-hand knowledge, not because I heard it from someone else with knowledge of the subject that I do not have. Everything I speak of when I post is something that I myself know. If I don't know something about a subject, I don't speak on it and leave it to those who know more about it than myself.

[jlauber]

And for those that continue to disparage Wilt's scoring in the post-season (and keep in mind that he faced a minimum of a multiple all-star starting center in 131 of his 160 post-season games...and a HOFer in 109 of them), in his first seven post-seasons...COMBINED...he averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (in leagues that averaged .426 shooting BTW.)

He also had FOUR games of 50+ in those post-season games, which is second only to MJ's eight. He had FOUR games, just against Russell of 40-30+, including a 50-35 "must-win" playoff game. He had another 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-series.

He had FOUR complete post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Included in those were series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.6 ppg (on .559 shooting.) He also had FOUR post-season series against Russell of 30+, including a seven game series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 32 rpg. He also had two more playoff series against Russell of 29-27 (on .517 shooting), and 28-30 (on .509 shooting.)

He had a 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, .612 series against the Royals in '67. He followed that up with a 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, .556 series against Russell in the ECF's. Then he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Thurmond in the Finals (by a staggering .560 to .343 margin.)

He also had the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting) in a seven game Finals in '70, which included a 45-27 (on 20-27 shooting) "must-win" game six. And all accomplished on a knee that had had major knee surgery just four months before.

[ThaRegul8r]

Well yea he averaged 50.

He also averaged 40 FGAttempts PGame and 18 FT's.

Again it was the pace of the league (number of possesions avaliable) combined with weak guard play (extra 0ffensive rebounds/tipins) + a coach who wanted to feed Wilt everytime down the court and have him score as much as possible and probably didnt even care if he ran back down the court to play defense.

I heard in that game where he scored 100 he didnt even run back to play defense he just stayed on the other end to cherry pick baskets.

The point is not to take stuff and try to use it to diminish. It's annoying when people are only interested in taking anything they learn and use it for a self-serving purpose. My only point was contextualization, but nevertheless, he still had to actually do it. The last point is purely for the sake of agenda. Wilt himself said that he didn't hold the hundred-point game in as high regard as others.

[jlauber]

I wouldn't even rate Chamberlain's '61-62 season as his best year. Most intelligent observers consider his '66-67 season, both regular season, and post-season, as his greatest season. And I think cases could be made for his 65-66 or 63-64 seasons, as well.

And all things considered, perhaps his 71-72 season, too.

[ThaRegul8r]

I wouldn't even rate Chamberlain's '61-62 season as his best year. Most intelligent observers consider his '66-67 season, both regular season, and post-season, as his greatest season. And I think cases could be made for his 65-66 or 63-64 seasons, as well.

And all things considered, perhaps his 71-72 season, too.

I've gone on record for decades as saying that in my opinion Wilt's '66-67 was the GOAT single season. I haven't ranked his seasons in order, but I would rate '71-72 over '61-62 as well. I have also gone on record as saying that Wilt has my vote for 1971-72 NBA Most Valuable Player.

[jlauber]

I've gone on record for decades as saying that in my opinion Wilt's '66-67 was the GOAT single season. I haven't ranked his seasons in order, but I would rate '71-72 over '61-62 as well. I have also gone on record as saying that Wilt has my vote for 1971-72 NBA Most Valuable Player.

I agree. His 71-72 season was remarkable for a number of reasons. One, the Lakers were an aged and injury-riddled team in the 70-71 season, that went 48-34. At the beginning of the 71-72 season, all five starters were over the age of 30.

Not only that, but the general consensus was that the defending champion Bucks, who demolished the NBA on the way to a 66-16 record and a dominating world title, were going to be the next great "dynasty." They were basically a young team, with the best player in the game.

And yet, behind the brilliant strategy of coach Sharman, who shed Baylor early on, and who stunned the NBA with a Laker team that just blitzed the league with a devastating fast-break, LA just tore through the league en route to a 69-13 record (which included a 33 game winning streak.) Along the way, the beat the Bucks (who would finish 63-19) 4-1 in the regular season.

Chamberlain was an "efficient Russell" in the regular season, too. He was unquestionably the most dominant defensive player in the league, and, as always, he led the league in rebounding. Not only that, but he ignited their break which led them to a league-leading 121.0 ppg (in a league that averaged 110 ppg...and in which the second best team was at 116.3 ppg.)

And he was at his most "clutch" in the post-season, too. He reduced Kareem to a brick-layer in the WCF's, and then dominated the Knicks in the Finals. His biggest post-season games came in the clincher's too. In their four game sweep of the 57-25 Bulls, he grabbed 31 rebounds in game four. In the clinching game six win (on the road) against the Bucks, he took over the game in the 4th quarter, and finished with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, while holding Kareem to 16-37 shooting. Then, with both wrists badly injured, he overwhelmed the Knicks in the clinching game five of the Finals, with a 24 point, 10-14 shooting, 29 rebound, nine block game.

[PHILA]

a 7-8 wingspan
It may have been closer to 8 feet seeing how Muhammad Ali's wingspan in the vid is shown as 78", while his reach is recorded as 80".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYEbga0XueA&lc#t=5m55s

[32Dayz]

My two favorite Wilt seasons would be 64 and 67.

64 for his amazing scoring 35 on 54% shooting :applause:
67 for his all around game and defense. :applause:

[Pointguard]

I wouldn't even rate Chamberlain's '61-62 season as his best year. Most intelligent observers consider his '66-67 season, both regular season, and post-season, as his greatest season. And I think cases could be made for his 65-66 or 63-64 seasons, as well.

And all things considered, perhaps his 71-72 season, too.
I think the realm of basketball possibility was pushed in the 62 season. Rarely are seasons that early in the career are the best. For all we know the 67 season could have all types of quadruple doubles and incredibly balanced games. He had more wisdom and great energy later on.

[PTB Fan]

This was truly a phenomenal season. However, i found Wilt's 67 season to be better because of the incredible display of all-around game, impact, dominance and the path he went through in order to get his title.

[La Frescobaldi]

Understandable, but the 68 season could be a debate.

Longest continuous streak of triple-doubles: Wilt Chamberlain holds the record for the most consecutive triple-doubles. In 1968, from March 8 to March 20, he recorded a triple-double in nine straight games.

Double-triple-double: Wilt Chamberlain is the only player to have accomplished this; in a February 2, 1968 game vs. Detroit Pistons, Chamberlain tallied 22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists

Only non-guard in NBA history to lead the league in assists

The '67 Sixers were selected as the greatest team in history but I always did think the '68 team was just as good or better, and I always did think Chamberlain played better. His numbers were almost identical to the year before. When all those guys got injured in the playoffs that year, it was like watching the smoothest race car you ever saw turning around the corner and gliding by........ then smashing into a brick wall

But that 67 team was awesome all right

Gail Goodrich talkin about that Sixer team

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5_nba-vault-the-1967-sixers-rick-kaml_sport

cool site....... tickets $2 at the Spectrum
http://www.nba.com/sixersnba/stories/67-68_yearbook_1.html

[Pointguard]

Strawman. I hate when people do this.
Didn't you do it yourself? Well, lets clarify because there's been some back and forth. I say Chamberlain was "going hard all over the court." You then go fact finding or as you say "a statement of fact." And here's your proof: You said "you read somewhere," could have been a message board for all we know, that Wilt said he cut back on defense. I never said Wilt was killing it on defense, but he had to have been playing hard over 90 feet of the court - much like Rodman did despite not killing it on the offensive end. Hard is the key word. If you diminish that you are trashing the whole sport because there hasn't been a production effort like it before or since. And for all we know, its possible that he could have lead the league in blocks as well. And theres a good chance that this is true as well.



I'm aware of this, and know this from first-hand knowledge, not because I heard it from someone else with knowledge of the subject that I do not have. Everything I speak of when I post is something that I myself know. If I don't know something about a subject, I don't speak on it and leave it to those who know more about it than myself.
We all are operating from third hand information or fourth hand information when talking about the '62 season. Help me out here?

[ThaRegul8r]

Strawman. I hate when people do this.

Didn't you do it yourself?

No, I didn't. People shouldn't attempt a tu quoque if they can't even use it properly.


Well, lets clarify because there's been some back and forth.

There has been no "back and forth." I made one comment, to which you responded and have tried to make this a "back-and-forth" thing, but for that, it takes the equal participation of two people, and I have better things to do than go back and forth with anonymous people online in an ultimately meaningless debate. A recent incident impressed foremost on my consciousness that I do not know how much time I have left on this planet. This is not a concern for the majority of people here, but I am not going to waste whatever time I have left in something that ultimately means nothing. So I am not going to spend any further time on this after I hit "submit reply."


I say Chamberlain was "going hard all over the court." You then go fact finding or as you say "a statement of fact."

I didn't go "fact-finding." Evidently you didn't spend enough time reading what I said:


Everything I speak of when I post is something that I myself know. If I don't know something about a subject, I don't speak on it and leave it to those who know more about it than myself.

Whenever I reply to something, I already possess the necessary knowledge regarding whatever it is I'm replying to. I don't need to go on a "fact-finding mission" (which is usually agenda-driven anyway, since those who do so only look for things confirming whatever agenda they're trying to push and ignore anything else. They're not actually interested in understanding both sides of a matter) for anything, because, unlike most people, I only talk about what I actually know.


And here's your proof: You said "you read somewhere," could have been a message board for all we know, that Wilt said he cut back on defense.

More evidence that you don't actually stop to read anything before making knee-jerk responses. Point out to me where I said, "I read that..."

I'll save you the time. I said:


I recall Wilt himself saying that

Meaning that I have first hand recollection of Wilt saying what I was talking about. I know you must be used to dealing with "most people" on message boards, but I am not "most people." So put whatever experience you have with "most people" on message boards aside, because it doesn't apply to me. I reiterate, I only go on what I myself know, not what I "heard" or "read somewhere" on some message board from someone with an agenda or someone who knows less about the subject than I myself know. My credibility is beyond reproach, so I hardly care for some Joe Schmoe on a message board making insinuations.


I never said Wilt was killing it on defense, but he had to have been playing hard over 90 feet of the court - much like Rodman did despite not killing it on the offensive end.

"He had to have been," based on what knowledge you actually possess? Based on what other than what you've gleaned from other people posting on message boards, or preconceptions you've formed which likely aren't any more accurate than the preconception formed by some that past players faced no one but white stiffs?


Hard is the key word. If you diminish that you are trashing the whole sport because there hasn't been a production effort like it before or since.

:rolleyes:

Please. I haven't been diminishing anything. Again, I point out I originally posted in the subject to begin with to refute the statement that what Wilt did that year would only translate to 25 points a game today. But I'm not wasting anymore time since it's obviously pointless.


We all are operating from third hand information or fourth hand information when talking about the '62 season.

Speak for yourself. It never ceases to amaze me how many people are so quick to speak for everyone instead of just speaking for themselves, when they are the only person they actually can knowledgeably and authoritatively speak on.

Anyway, I'm done with this. You can have the last word as I'm sure you will, and make whatever ad hominem attacks makes you feel happy (or even anonymously neg rep me if you wish, as others have done), get it out of your system, as I will not be posting further in this thread. Life is too short and I don't have the time to waste.

[Sarcastic]

1961/1962 for Wilt is like Babe Ruth's 1920 and 1921 seasons for the Yankees. Stuff that had never been seen before and stuff that has never been seen since.

[Pointguard]

"He had to have been," based on what knowledge you actually possess? Based on what other than what you've gleaned from other people posting on message boards, or preconceptions you've formed which likely aren't any more accurate than the preconception formed by some that past players faced no one but white stiffs?

Reg, why not just save the time and say you misunderstood me? I said he "going hard all over the floor" and you made pressumptions from that. Just address that statement - that's the origin and principle point. The top three paragraphs wasn't needed at all because you evading this contention. If I recall right you are some type of scientist, anyway, I know you like things perfect or close to it. Fact is that you make mistakes and will make more, its a no biggie. The world you live in is flawed just like we are. May God bless you in your health. I, sincerely, hope you have many happy days in the future. The good thing is they are more accessible than the perfect days. But you have to position yourself for better days and I hope its not here.

Why do you say that my "he had to have been" is an assumption from people I read on message boards? I gave you the reference point: Jordan's 37ppg season and Rodman's rebounding year and the high octane activity level of them. The knowledge I use is based on the fact I never seen a 50 point game or a 25 rebound game where the player wasn't "going hard" at either of those feats much less the both of them together. I recall Shaq having a 61/23 game and it was a mindblowing effort. I don't recall his defense at all...


Speak for yourself. It never ceases to amaze me how many people are so quick to speak for everyone instead of just speaking for themselves, when they are the only person they actually can knowledgeably and authoritatively speak on.
In this one post alone these are your quotes.
"This is not a concern for the majority of people here."
"because, unlike most people, I only talk about what I actually know."

You do realize that even if you hear Wilt talk about it himself at a later time that this isn't first hand information right? Are you claiming that you saw the 62 season yourself. I know you never claimed this before. Are you saying that you know for sure Wilt didn't play good defense that year? First hand information would be very definitive about these answers. I will readily admit I don't know these answers. Will you?



Anyway, I'm done with this. You can have the last word as I'm sure you will, and make whatever [I]ad hominem attacks makes you feel happy (or even anonymously neg rep me if you wish, as others have done), get it out of your system, as I will not be posting further in this thread. Life is too short and I don't have the time to waste.
I never negged you. Even when you slandered me about a year ago. I didn't take it personal. The negging thing is basically, cowardly.

[PHILA]

When all those guys got injured in the playoffs that year, it was like watching the smoothest race car you ever saw turning around the corner and gliding by........ then smashing into a brick wall
No doubt they were the best single season team to not win. There were times during the NY series when the hobbled Sixers were getting killed on the boards, as Bellamy & Reed were feasting on the offensive glass. They played Games 4, 5, and 6 consecutively. No days off in between. :no:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=16m15s




DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers.Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.




DELAWARE COUNTY - April 4, 1968

There they are—the Philadelphia 76ers. See them gulp pills. Notice their bandages. Watch how they limp. Look at how they struggle.

They are sick and battered invalids. Pain and fatigue stagger hand in hand. They do not belong on a basketball court, they belong in wheelchairs.

There are only eight of them left now, and seven are ailing. They're wearing so much tape -they look like mummies in short pants. Do you wonder how they keep playing? Or why?

* * *

The 76ers will return to their rightful place at the Spectrum Friday night to meet the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Division finals.

From a New York viewpoint, the older 76ers should not have beaten the youthful, deep Knicks in the semifinals. After, the Knicks evened the series at 2-2, New York newspapers had buried the 76ers. The act seemed to b e contagious.

Loyalists in Philadelphia started believing it, too. But it was mostly the New York press. And when the 76ers resisted the early burial last Sunday, the New York press became cranky.

The sour grapes began to spill. A sportswriter who is one of the very biggest in New York City characterized the mood when he spent a greater part of the afternoon last Sunday complaining loudly and bitterly about the location of the TV cameras during foul shots. As a result, several heated arguments between TV and NBA officials and the writer developed along the sidelines.

It was exemplary of the New York mood, which was soon compounded by the 76ers' demoralizing 123-105 victory.

* * *

The turning point of the series was Sunday. The Knicks, feeling they could take advantage of the 76ers' badly battered and undermanned squad, suffered a psychological breakdown after the battered and undermanned 76ers destroyed them in the fifth game.

Then in the third game in three days Monday — an incredible piece of scheduling by the NBA—the 76ers administered the coupe de grace as the Knicks fell apartafter blowing a big early lead.

Winning the rough, bruising series with a team riddled by injuries and its bench practically stripped may — under the circumstances — be one of the most remarkable feats in NBA history.

* * *

A TEAM playing under these conditions should not be expected to survive such a series. Have you ever tried driving a car on three wheels?"

But the fact that the 76ers did win was a glowing tribute to the sheer determination and dedication of a proud team; one whose supreme pride shunned defeat in the face of most dire circumstances.

You had to be there to appreciate it . . . the way Hal Greer and Wally Jones ran and shot on battered knees; the way Wilt Chamberlain played the middle with a volcano in his stomach and an injured toe shot full of needles; the way Johnny Green kept hustling although long past the point of exhaustion; the way Luke Jackson, Chet Walker and Matt Goukas played their guts out despite assorted injuries.

It was an effort propelled by a strong motivation; dedication to a mission known as winning. These were driven men. Old pros who refused to buckle.

The Knick series can be forgotten now. The 76ers face a new challenge; one that is much bigger. Can they produce another maximum effort against Boston?

* * *

THERE THEY are — the Philadelphia 76ers. See how they scrap. Watch how they claw.

Notice their contempt for adversity.





Fond Du Lac Commonwealth Reporter - March 30, 1968

Injuries Plague 76ers

The Philadelphia 76ers, a team some rank as the physically strongest in professional basketball history, are in trouble. The trouble is injuries—to handyman Bill Cunningham and starting forward Luke Jackson, and to a lesser degree the two standouts of the defending world champions, Wilt Chamberlain and Hal Greer.

Cunningham broke his right wrist in the double overtime, 138-132 victory over New York which gave the 76ers a 2-1 lead in the best-of-seven series Wednesday night at Philadelphia. Cunningham shoots southpaw, but the injury has kayoed him for the year.

Jackson, the brutish, 6-foot-9 forward who supplies Wilt with rebounding assistance, has a hamstring pull, and was a doubtful performer when the series resumed at Madison Square Garden today.

Chamberlain has been taking cortisone shots in his right toe, and Greer, the middle-distance shooting star, has a knee which troubles him and on which he wears a brace.

Wally Wonder

It appears that Wally Jones, Greer's partner at guard who unblushingly dubbed himself "Wally Wonder," and Chet Walker, the smooth cornerman, are the only healthy 76er starters now.

The team, which ended Boston's domination last winter and then went on to stop San Francisco in the final playoff, was conceded as good a chance this season before the injuries set in. To make matters worse, the current opponent— the Knicks—is a young team which is just starting to feel its oats. The Knicks would enjoy nothing more than knocking off the world champions, and you can bet that Boston will be cheering for them.

Those who watch the pros over ABC each Sunday afternoon will have a chance to watch two games tomorrow. ABC announced Thursday that it will "split" its telecasting time, switching from the 76ers-Knicks' game to the Pistons-Celtics' match and back as the occasion arises.

This will give fans a chance to watch pivotal games in the Eastern Division playoffs, from which will probably spring the eventual champion.

The Pistons and Celtics are tied at 2-2 after Boston's 135- 110 win Thursday. Detroit, which won 10 of its last 13 games to beat out Cincinnati for the fourth playoff spot in the East, has given Boston a stronger run than the aging Celtics expected.

The two playoff series will probably be decided by the play of the two men who have dominated the game in recent years, Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

Counting On Wilt

With his team crippled by injuries, 76ers coach Alex Hannum said Friday that he is counting on Chamberlain to carry his club through against the Knicks. For Boston, player-coach Russell must play well for the Celtics to win.

Both teams depend on their big men to lead them to success. In both cases, the chores have been handed to capable men. So it will come as no surprise if the Celtics and 76ers end up in the Eastern Division's final round.

But the Knickerbockers will have something to say before it's over, and the Pistons likewise. The more experienced 76ers and Celtics are hoping the youngsters remember an old saying which goes, "Children should be seen and not heard."

[jacobgoindum]

Wilt's a great player, but no need to get your panies in a bunch, he dominated a league with him being the only 7 footer, and him being the only one 250+ lbs

[jlauber]

:rockon:

Great post PHILA.

Had the Sixers been healthy in that post-season, they would easily have repeated. Even without HOFer Cunningham, they built a 3-1 lead against Boston. And with all of those injuries, and with a roster that could only go eight deep to begin with, it was more amazing that they lost a seven game series, and a seventh game, by only four points.

I have long maintained, that had the Sixers remained intact, they would have won 3-4 more titles.

What is truly laughable, though, is that guys like Bill Simmons RIPPED WILT for that playoff failure. And here was Chamberlain, PLAYING with MULTIPLE injuries, and playing well despite them. And yet, a few years later, Reed misses chunks of THREE games in the Finals, and in game seven, all he can do is put up a 4-3 game, and he is elevated to sainthood...while Wilt, playing at nowhere near 100%, and on a knee that had had major surgery just four months before, and who put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 Finals...was labeled the "choker."

We also know that Kareem would never have played in any of those games with the incredible injuries that Wilt PLAYED with...and for FIVE games...including THREE-IN-A-ROW (and 48 mpg.)

[jlauber]

Wilt's a great player, but no need to get your panies in a bunch, he dominated a league with him being the only 7 footer, and him being the only one 250+ lbs

He DOMINATED the entire NBA for 14 SEASONS. In his LAST season, at age 36, he LED the league in rebounding (and by a solid margin); was voted first-team all-defense (for the second straight season); and set a FG% mark of .727, which is a record that will probably never be approached. Then, in the playoffs, covering 17 games (and playing 47.1 mpg BTW), he averaged 22.5 rpg...which was the LAST time any player ever averaged 20+ in the post-season (in fact, Kareem's '77 playoffs of 17.3 has been the next best mark since.) Oh, and in his very LAST game, he put up a 23 point, on 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.

He also faced quite a few seven-footers in his career, and given the fact that players were measured in bare feet back then, there were many more 6-11 players that would have been listed at 7-0 in today's game.

True, he was by far-and-away the strongest man in the league (and among the strongest in the world at the time), but Shaq outweighed the vast majority of his opposing centers by 50+ lbs too.

[jacobgoindum]

He DOMINATED the entire NBA for 14 SEASONS. In his LAST season, at age 36, he LED the league in rebounding (and by a solid margin); was voted first-team all-defense (for the second straight season); and set a FG% mark of .727, which is a record that will probably never be approached. Then, in the playoffs, covering 17 games (and playing 47.1 mpg BTW), he averaged 22.5 rpg...which was the LAST time any player ever averaged 20+ in the post-season (in fact, Kareem's '77 playoffs of 17.3 has been the next best mark since.) Oh, and in his very LAST game, he put up a 23 point, on 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.

He also faced quite a few seven-footers in his career, and given the fact that players were measured in bare feet back then, there were many more 6-11 players that would have been listed at 7-0 in today's game.

True, he was by far-and-away the strongest man in the league (and among the strongest in the world at the time), but Shaq outweighed the vast majority of his opposing centers by 50+ lbs too.

great player
pace was extremely high, that's why he was the last one to average 20+ rpg, some point guards were averaging 11 a game back then

[jlauber]

great player
pace was extremely high, that's why he was the last one to average 20+ rpg, some point guards were averaging 11 a game back then

Why was it ONLY Chamberlain that could accomplish those amazing numbers in his career?

Think about this...Chamberlain had 32 60+ point games in his career. The rest of the NBA, COMBINED, has had 30. And, DURING Wilt's 14 seasons, he had those 32, and the rest of the players, COMBINED, in those 14 seasons, had FIVE.

Then, think about this. Wilt's LAST 60+ point game, was a 66 point explosion, late in his career, and on 29-35 shooting (which, BTW, is the all-time efficiency record for a 60+ point game), in a league that averaged 112.3 ppg, and in a season in which Wilt had no interest in scoring, ...and there have only been FIVE games since, that have been higher.

And, once again, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just annihilated, and Abdul-Jabbar never came close to Wilt's numbers against them.

[jacobgoindum]

Why was it ONLY Chamberlain that could accomplish those amazing numbers in his career?

Think about this...Chamberlain had 32 60+ point games in his career. The rest of the NBA, COMBINED, has had 30. And, DURING Wilt's 14 seasons, he had those 32, and the rest of the players, COMBINED, in those 14 seasons, had FIVE.

Then, think about this. Wilt's LAST 60+ point game, was a 66 point explosion, late in his career, and on 29-35 shooting (which, BTW, is the all-time efficiency record for a 60+ point game), in a league that averaged 112.3 ppg, and in a season in which Wilt had no interest in scoring, ...and there have only been FIVE games since, that have been higher.

And, once again, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just annihilated, and Abdul-Jabbar never came close to Wilt's numbers against them.

1. He was one of the best of alltime
2. The pace was the highest ever

Here are the NBA league averages

RPG from '58-'62
71.7
70.0
73.5
73.3
71.4

Teams NOW average about 41 RPG

That's almost HALF

[millwad]

Why was it ONLY Chamberlain that could accomplish those amazing numbers in his career?

Think about this...Chamberlain had 32 60+ point games in his career. The rest of the NBA, COMBINED, has had 30. And, DURING Wilt's 14 seasons, he had those 32, and the rest of the players, COMBINED, in those 14 seasons, had FIVE.

Then, think about this. Wilt's LAST 60+ point game, was a 66 point explosion, late in his career, and on 29-35 shooting (which, BTW, is the all-time efficiency record for a 60+ point game), in a league that averaged 112.3 ppg, and in a season in which Wilt had no interest in scoring, ...and there have only been FIVE games since, that have been higher.

And, once again, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just annihilated, and Abdul-Jabbar never came close to Wilt's numbers against them.

MY GOD!

Which one of them is your mom, Jlauber?
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww126/indiefan23/wilttrack.jpg

[jacobgoindum]

Dwight Howard averaged 14.2 RPG in 2007-08, played all 82 games
Magic rebound total: 3445
Dwight's rebound total: 1161
Dwight's % of rebounds: 33.7

Wilt Chamberlain averaged 25.7 RPG in 1961-62, played all 80 games
Warriors rebound total: 5939
Wilt's rebound total: 2052
Wilt's % of rebounds: 34.6

[millwad]

Dwight Howard averaged 14.2 RPG in 2007-08, played all 82 games
Magic rebound total: 2677
Dwight's rebound total: 1161
Dwight's % of rebounds: 43.4

Wilt Chamberlain averaged 25.7 RPG in 1961-62, played all 80 games
Warriors rebound total: 5939
Wilt's rebound total: 2052
Wilts % of rebounds: 34.6

Great post, this is always something Jlauber and his buttyboys forgets.. It's obvious, when a team shoots more shots (higher pace) and do it on worse FG% than the modern era, that will result in more rebounding opportunities...

Comparing Wilt's rebounding numbers to modern era players is a joke..

[jacobgoindum]

Great post, this is always something Jlauber and his buttyboys forgets.. It's obvious, when a team shoots more shots (higher pace) and do it on worse FG% than the modern era, that will result in more rebounding opportunities...

Comparing Wilt's rebounding numbers to modern era players is a joke..

lol i fixed the %, I accidentally just looked at defensive rebounds for dwight

[32Dayz]

I do find it ridiculous considering defenses are much better these days and defensive schemes are 100x better + Wilt would be double/tripled far more and (Hack-A-Wilted).

Even back then he rarely got in the high 20's scoring wise while shooting above the low .50's % wise and they think he will all of a sudden be scoring 30-40ppg in this Era on 60% shooting.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Wilt is "overrated" as a scorer.

[jacobgoindum]

I'm gonna compare Wilt's best rebounding season and Rodman's

Rodman: 18.7 RPG in 1991-92
Wilt: 27.0 RPG in 1960-61

Both played all thier teams games

Piston's total rebounds
3631
Rodman's total rebounds
1530
Rodman's % of team's rebounds
42.1

Warriors total rebounds
5938
Wilt's total rebounds
2149
Wilt's % of team's rebounds
36.2

Rodman's RPG with the 1960-61 Warriors pace: 31.6

[jlauber]

Dwight Howard averaged 14.2 RPG in 2007-08, played all 82 games
Magic rebound total: 3445
Dwight's rebound total: 1161
Dwight's % of rebounds: 33.7

Wilt Chamberlain averaged 25.7 RPG in 1961-62, played all 80 games
Warriors rebound total: 5939
Wilt's rebound total: 2052
Wilt's % of rebounds: 34.6

You better double check your numbers. Wilt had 2052 rebounds out of a TOTAL of 5105, or 41.0%.

Back in the 60's, TEAM rebounds were ADDED to the totals. From the 72-73 season, on, they were NOT.

[jacobgoindum]

You better double check your numbers. Wilt had 2052 rebounds out of a TOTAL of 5105, or 41.0%.

Back in the 60's, TEAM rebounds were ADDED to the totals. From the 72-73 season, on, they were NOT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html

Total Team TRB: 5939

[jlauber]

I'm gonna compare Wilt's best rebounding season and Rodman's

Rodman: 18.7 RPG in 1991-92
Wilt: 27.0 RPG in 1960-61

Both played all thier teams games

Piston's total rebounds
3631
Rodman's total rebounds
1530
Rodman's % of team's rebounds
42.1

Warriors total rebounds
5938
Wilt's total rebounds
2149
Wilt's % of team's rebounds
36.2

Rodamn's RPG with the 1960-61 Warriors pace: 31.6

How about the in the post-season, when Wilt had entire post-seasons as high as 30 rpg, while Rodman's high, was 16.0 rpg (and in a three game series.)

Overall, Chamberlain averaged 24.5 rpg in the post-season, to Rodman's 9.9 rpg.

Oh, and Chamberlain was also scoring 30-35 ppg, handing out 4-5 apg, blocking 8+ shots per game, and SEVERELY limiting the MANY HOF centers that he faced in the post-season.

[jlauber]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html

Total Team TRB: 5939

ADD them up...5105 my friend.

[jacobgoindum]

ADD them up...5105 my friend.

huh?

[jacobgoindum]

GOAT scorer: Jordan
GOAT rebounder: Rodman

[jlauber]

Incidently, how about these three games in the '67 ECF's...

In game one, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 32-15...in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 120 rebounds...or 27% of the TOTAL available.

In the clinching game five, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 36-21...in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 128 available rebounds...or 28%.

Then, in game three, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 41-29, in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 134 rebounds...or 30%!


BTW, I have always wondered what Chamberlain's percentage must have been in the game in which he outrebounded Russell, 55-19.

Oh, and BTW, in the clinching game five win in the '72 Finals, Wilt, with BOTH hands wrapped because of severe injuries, grabbed 29 rebounds (the Knicks had a TOTAL of 39), out of 106 TOTAL rebounds, or 27%.

[jacobgoindum]

Incidently, how about these three games in the '67 ECF's...

In game one, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 32-15...in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 120 rebounds...or 27% of the TOTAL available.

In the clinching game five, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 36-21...in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 128 available rebounds...or 28%.

Then, in game three, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 41-29, in a game in which there were a TOTAL of 134 rebounds...or 30%!


BTW, I have always wondered what Chamberlain's percentage must have been in the game in which he outrebounded Russell, 55-19.

Oh, and BTW, in the clinching game five win in the '72 Finals, Wilt, with BOTH hands wrapped because of severe injuries, grabbed 29 rebounds (the Knicks had a TOTAL of 39), out of 106 TOTAL rebounds, or 27%.

:applause:

[millwad]

We all know Wilt was one of, if not the greatest rebounder of all-time but it's pretty funny how Jlauber always spams about Wilt outrebounding Russell..

I've read posts where Jlauber claims that Wilt was 7-2 and we know that Russell was listed as 6-9. If two players, both amazing athletic freaks stands next to each other under the basket trying to get a rebound, isn't it kind of obvious that the guy who's way taller grabs the rebound most of the times?:facepalm

Both were amazing rebounders, all-time greats and both where crazy athletic, but Wilt had a great height advantage..

http://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-490056-bill-russell-autographed-hand-signed-framed-black-white-shaking-hands-with-wilt-hc-dh6pzckagk.jpg

The pic even cuts Wilt's head..

[32Dayz]

We all know Wilt was one of, if not the greatest rebounder of all-time but it's pretty funny how Jlauber always spams about Wilt outrebounding Russell..

I've read posts where Jlauber claims that Wilt was 7-2 and we know that Russell was listed as 6-9. If two players, both amazing athletic freaks stands next to each other under the basket trying to get a rebound, isn't it kind of obvious that the guy who's way taller grabs the rebound most of the times?:facepalm

Both were amazing rebounders, all-time greats and both where crazy athletic, but Wilt had a great height advantage..

http://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-490056-bill-russell-autographed-hand-signed-framed-black-white-shaking-hands-with-wilt-hc-dh6pzckagk.jpg

The pic even cuts Wilt's head..

Bill Russell also appears to be on his Tippy Toe's or atleast standing up with his best posture while Wilt is bending his knees and has bad posture in the pic.

Wilt was much taller then Russell I dont think anyone debates that.

[jlauber]

I do find it ridiculous considering defenses are much better these days and defensive schemes are 100x better + Wilt would be double/tripled far more and (Hack-A-Wilted).

Even back then he rarely got in the high 20's scoring wise while shooting above the low .50's % wise and they think he will all of a sudden be scoring 30-40ppg in this Era on 60% shooting.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Wilt is "overrated" as a scorer.

You are a complete idiot! Chamberlain had ONE season, in his rookie year, in which he failed to shoot less than .506. He had SIX seasons of 33.5-50.4 ppg in which he shot between .506 and .540...and in leagues that averaged .426 shooting in that span.

And NO OTHER PLAYER in NBA was SWARMED, nor BRUTALIZED, as much as Chamberlain.

Bt contrast, Kareem played in the 70's, and his highest FG% season was .579. He also had FOUR seasons of .539, .529, .518, and .513 (in his absolute prime BTW). And yet, in his first EIGHT seasons in the 80's, he nver shot worse than .564, and he had FOUR seasons better than his BEST season in the 70's. including a .604 season, and a .599 season at age 37.

Furthermore, look at Artis Gilmore. In his physicval prime, and in the 70's, he shot between .522 and .575. In the 80's, he had SEVEN season sof .597+, including SIX of .618, with high's of .652 and .670. He had a season, in the 70's, in which he averaged 18.6 ppg on .522 shooting. He had seasons of 18.5 ppg on .670 shooting, 18.5 ppg on .652 shooting, and even 19.1 ppg on .623 shooting, and at age 35!

Then, how about those centers that came in the league in the 80's, and played into the 90's? In Hakeem's ROOKIE season, he had his CAREER high in FG%, at .534. Which was no surprise, since the ENTIRE NBA shot .492. My god, the Laker TEAM shot .548. His 4th best season of his career came in his SECOND year, too. How about Ewing? His TWO best seasons came in the 80's (in his third and 4th seasons), and his next best season came in 89-90, at .551. After that? His best season was .522, and he had multiple seasons below .499. And while Robinson came in the league in 89-90, he had his TWO best seasons in 90-91 and 91-92. After that, a steady decline.

Chamberlain playued in leagues that ranged from .410 to .456. Had he played in the 80s, in league that ranged from .477 to .492, he would surely have shot a FAR greater percentage. And keep in mind that the scoring in the decade of the 80's was not dramatically lower than that of the 60's, either. In MJ's best season, the league averaged 109.9 ppg, which was only a few points behind Chamberlain's 61-62 season of 118.8 ppg.

[32Dayz]

Relax J... I said he rarely shot above .50-54% in the playoffs when shooting in the Low/Mid to High 20's.

That is true.

I cant say for sure how heavily he was defended but he appears to me in the video I have seen of him to be double and triple far less the then Dominant Centers of this generation.

I also feel the average athlete in terms of athletic ability and length/height is far superior today then it was back then which makes double/triple teams harder to deal with.

[Bless Mathews]

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2963000/AlphaWolf-2963314_1611_930.jpg


Post of the year!!


Literal LOL!!

Can someone search the height of the oposing centers in each game???

[jlauber]

Bill Russell also appears to be on his Tippy Toe's or atleast standing up with his best posture while Wilt is bending his knees and has bad posture in the pic.

Wilt was much taller then Russell I dont think anyone debates that.

Interesting, a PRIME Shaq was outrebounded by a considerable margin by a 6-7 Ben Wallace. And he NEVER led the league in rebounding, despite being 7-1, and 325+ lbs. And the 6-8 Rodman was MILES ahead of him in his career, despite playing less mpg. And players like 6-9 Chris Weber had seasons of leading the NBA in rpg and in Shaq's PRIME.

BTW, Chamberlain also easily outrebounded the 7-2 Kareem in his career H2H's. And he did so at well past his prime.

[jlauber]

Relax J... I said he rarely shot above .50-54% in the playoffs when shooting in the Low/Mid to High 20's.

That is true.

I cant say for sure how heavily he was defended but he appears to me in the video I have seen of him to be double and triple far less the then Dominant Centers of this generation.

I also feel the average athlete in terms of athletic ability and length/height is far superior today then it was back then which makes double/triple teams harder to deal with.

There is YouTube footage, of a 34 year old Wilt, and a year removed from major knee surgery, and at 300+ lbs, against the Bulls in the 70-71 playoffs, blocking a shot in which he goes straight up, without benefit of a running start, and his the tips of his fingers are above the square...or around 12 ft.

AND, there is YouTube footage, of a young Chamberlain, blocking a shot, again, without benefit of a running start, but rather going straight up, in which his fingertips are very close to the top of the backborad, or nearly 13ft. Now, you tell me what Chamberlain would have done with a running start in either of those blocks.

BTW, Sonny Hill claims to have seen Wilt touch the top of the backboard, and Tex Winter claims to have witnessed Wilt dunking from the FT line, and with a leap started inside the FT circle.

In any case, we KNOW that Wilt was HIGH-JUMP CHAMPION (part-time BRW), and also participated in the TRIPLE-JUMP, and the LONG JUMP at KU, as well as running a leg on their 4x100 relay team.

Strength? Just GOOGLE Wilt's bench. You will find MANY claims of 500+. SI ran an article as early as 1964 in which Wilt was benching 425 lbs (and he was certainly much stronger later on.) And there is even an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs. and at age 59!

[millwad]

And NO OTHER PLAYER in NBA was SWARMED, nor BRUTALIZED, as much as Chamberlain.


Haha, the footage of Wilt says something completely different..:facepalm

And also, this guy doesn't agree...

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/sports/basketball/indiana_pacers/2000/shaq_dunk.jpg

[32Dayz]

Interesting, a PRIME Shaq was outrebounded by a considerable margin by a 6-7 Ben Wallace. And he NEVER led the league in rebounding, despite being 7-1, and 325+ lbs. And the 6-8 Rodman was MILES ahead of him in his career, despite playing less mpg. And players like 6-9 Chris Weber had seasons of leading the NBA in rpg and in Shaq's PRIME.

BTW, Chamberlain also easily outrebounded the 7-2 Kareem in his career H2H's. And he did so at well past his prime.

lol so what? Rodman and Wallace are amazing rebounders.
I dont think Height alone determines how good a rebounder is.
Things like instincts and effort come into play.

Its also easier for a specialist like Rodman or Wallace to get rebounds since they dont do much on 0ffense.

Shaq was always one of the Top Rebounders in the league and is #1 All-Time in Playoff 0ffensive rebounds and #3 in Defensive and Total rebounds in the playoffs trailing only Wilt and Russell.

Wilts RBD% was not significantly better then Shaqs and although he may have been a better rebounder I doubt the difference was huge and it was probably more due to Era/Pace.
Shaq got rebounds when he needed to dont forget all the 20+ rebound games he has in the playoffs probably the 2nd or 3rd most after your boy Wilt despite being in a league with far fewer RBDS avaliable.

But yea.. he was a terrible rebounder. :rolleyes:

[Pointguard]

There are more great rebounders closer to Russell's height as there are to Wilt's. Russell had incredibly long arms too. 20 out of the last 30 rebound titles went to guys under 6'11. Rodman, Moses and Russell would outrebound every other 7 footer ever, obviously Wilt excluded, and it wouldn't be close. Wilt didn't have the body to box out well. As Barkley said, his butt would win out everytime against somebody's legs. Height isn't an edge in rebounding as much as energy and attitude are.

[La Frescobaldi]

He played 63 minutes on December 8. Is that the record?
No Dale Ellis I think has the record for single game, 69 minutes he was with sonics maybe 88? Or 1989

[jlauber]

We all know Wilt was one of, if not the greatest rebounder of all-time but it's pretty funny how Jlauber always spams about Wilt outrebounding Russell..

I've read posts where Jlauber claims that Wilt was 7-2 and we know that Russell was listed as 6-9. If two players, both amazing athletic freaks stands next to each other under the basket trying to get a rebound, isn't it kind of obvious that the guy who's way taller grabs the rebound most of the times?:facepalm

Both were amazing rebounders, all-time greats and both where crazy athletic, but Wilt had a great height advantage..

http://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-490056-bill-russell-autographed-hand-signed-framed-black-white-shaking-hands-with-wilt-hc-dh6pzckagk.jpg

The pic even cuts Wilt's head..

The best rebounders are the one's who want it the most. That's why a 6-5 Barkley was consistently outrebounding the 6-10 Hakeem by as many as 5 rpg when they were paired together in the 90's.

And the 7-1 Shaq, and the 7-2 Kareem, who played for a combined 39 seasons, won exactly ONE rpg title...COMBINED.

[millwad]

The best rebounders are the one's who want it the most. That's why a 6-5 Barkley was consistently outrebounding the 6-10 Hakeem by as many as 5 rpg when they were paired together in the 90's.

And the 7-1 Shaq, and the 7-2 Kareem, who played for a combined 39 seasons, won exactly ONE rpg title...COMBINED.

Haha, Jlauber, you're such a phagg0t and I like how Barkley gets shorter and shorter in every post you write..

Anyway, it's a valid point to make regarding the nonsense about Wilt always outrebounding Russell. Both were all-time great rebounders and the best of their own era but Wilt had a great height advantage and it's safe to say that both had the same rebounding skills only that Russell was 6-9 and Wilt was 7-2..

OH, Wilt outrebounded a 6-9 guy, big deal..

[Pointguard]

No Dale Ellis I think has the record for single game, 69 minutes he was with sonics maybe 88? Or 1989

Dale Ellis was on the court, but playing is another matter. How unusual, that he would have an ironman feat under his belt.

[La Frescobaldi]

Post of the year!!


Literal LOL!!

Can someone search the height of the oposing centers in each game???


League Standings
Playoff teams are marked with an asterisk (*)
Team W L SRS
Eastern Division
Boston Celtics* 60 20 8.25
Center Bill Russell (most sources have him at 6'9" but he always listed at 6'10" in programs)

Philadelphia Warriors* 49 31 2.63
Center Wilt Chamberlain 7'1"

Syracuse Nationals* 41 39 2.24
Centers
Red Kerr 6'9"
Swede Holbrook 7'3"

New York Knicks 29 51 -3.98
Centers
Phil Imhoff 6'10"
Phil Jordon 6'10"

Western Division W L SRS
Los Angeles Lakers* 54 26 1.80
Center
Ray Felix 6'11"

Cincinnati Royals* 43 37 1.28
Wayne Embry 6'8"
Bevo Nordmann 6'10"

Detroit Pistons* 37 43 -1.72
Center
Walt Dukes 7'

St. Louis Hawks 29 51 -2.96
Clyde Lovelette 6'9"
Larry Foust 6'9"

Chicago Packers 18 62 -7.54
Center
Walt Bellamy 6'11"

*********************
For comparison, here's a few current NBA centers.
Keep in mind, though, their pre-draft heights are 1 to 2 inches shorter. Since about 1985 the NBA states heights in shoes. See for example http://www.draftexpress.com/article/A-Historical-Look-at-the-NBA-Pre-Draft-Measurements-2912/
Here's a note from that page.......

"On the subject of freaks of nature, I have to bring up Shaq. In 1992, Shaq measured 7

[Pointguard]

I also feel the average athlete in terms of athletic ability and length/height is far superior today then it was back then which makes double/triple teams harder to deal with.
Not with centers at all. And they rarely take pride in their play these days. Will power and grit (Dave Cowens 6-9, Wes Unseld) which is worth way more than height and athleticism (Kwame Brown, Eddie Curry). Not to mention wits, intellegence, know how and aggression (Nate Thurmond, Reed and Russell) against any physical trait you can mention today. Its a joke to mention height and athletism against those traits in tall players. If your first defender is weak mentally your resistance is weak. The whole defensive scheme is definitely better tho. But it gives in certain places.

[Psileas]

League Standings
Playoff teams are marked with an asterisk (*)
Team W L SRS
Eastern Division
Boston Celtics* 60 20 8.25
Center Bill Russell (most sources have him at 6'9" but he always listed at 6'10" in programs)

Philadelphia Warriors* 49 31 2.63
Center Wilt Chamberlain 7'1"

Syracuse Nationals* 41 39 2.24
Centers
Red Kerr 6'9"
Swede Holbrook 7'3"

New York Knicks 29 51 -3.98
Centers
Phil Imhoff 6'10"
Phil Jordon 6'10"

Western Division W L SRS
Los Angeles Lakers* 54 26 1.80
Center
Ray Felix 6'11"

Cincinnati Royals* 43 37 1.28
Wayne Embry 6'8"
Bevo Nordmann 6'10"

Detroit Pistons* 37 43 -1.72
Center
Walt Dukes 7'

St. Louis Hawks 29 51 -2.96
Clyde Lovelette 6'9"
Larry Foust 6'9"

Chicago Packers 18 62 -7.54
Center
Walt Bellamy 6'11"

*********************
For comparison, here's a few current NBA centers.
Keep in mind, though, their pre-draft heights are 1 to 2 inches shorter. Since about 1985 the NBA states heights in shoes. See for example http://www.draftexpress.com/article/A-Historical-Look-at-the-NBA-Pre-Draft-Measurements-2912/
Here's a note from that page.......

"On the subject of freaks of nature, I have to bring up Shaq. In 1992, Shaq measured 7’1” without shoes, weighed 303 pounds, recorded a 35 inch vertical and had his wingspan measured at 7’7”...... 7’0”, 255 listed Hakeem Olajuwon was so small compared to Shaq that he was estimated at 6’8”, 235 after standing next to him."

Olajuwon stated numerous times his true height was 6'10"


* Dwight Howard lists at 6'11" but draft height was 6'9"
* Luis Scola 6'9"
* Greg Oden lists at 7' but draft height was 6'11"
* Andrew Bogut 7'
* Kwame Brown 6'11
* Marcus Hubbard 6'9
* DeAndre Jordan 6'11
* Roy Hibbert 7'2"

You can see from the Association of Professional Basketball Research site (scroll to the bottom - cool page)
http://www.apbr.org/apbr-faq.html

Average height in the NBA in 62 was 6'5 1/2"
Average height in 2000 was 6'7"


I've seen some sites that say the league is about an inch shorter today than it was in the 1990s but I don't know the fact of it. The legue looks smaller.

But we're talking an inch average height difference between 1962 and 2000.

So the picture might be funny and all.... but that's a myth

Around 60% of ISH believes that the picture is genuine...

[La Frescobaldi]

I'm gonna compare Wilt's best rebounding season and Rodman's

Rodman: 18.7 RPG in 1991-92
Wilt: 27.0 RPG in 1960-61

Both played all thier teams games

Piston's total rebounds
3631
Rodman's total rebounds
1530
Rodman's % of team's rebounds
42.1

Warriors total rebounds
5938
Wilt's total rebounds
2149
Wilt's % of team's rebounds
36.2

Rodman's RPG with the 1960-61 Warriors pace: 31.6


****************************
I'm gonna point out energy levels of those two seasons.

Rodman: 9.8 PPG in 1991-92
Wilt: 38.4 PPG in 1960-61

Both played all thier (SIC) teams games

Piston's total POINTS
8113
Rodman's total POINTS
800
Rodman's % of team's POINTS
9.8

Warriors total POINTS
9558
Wilt's total POINTS
3033
Wilt's % of team's rebounds <-- should be POINTS
32

[La Frescobaldi]

Around 60% of ISH believes that the picture is genuine...

So I noticed. You know that's lookin pretty modern height-wise but... all you can do is get the big ceiling fans turned on and blow the smoke out of the room

[Deuce Bigalow]

"Hey, this is an interesting topic."

Someone said that 50 years ago, when it was current.
:oldlol:

[jlauber]

****************************
I'm gonna point out energy levels of those two seasons.

Rodman: 9.8 PPG in 1991-92
Wilt: 38.4 PPG in 1960-61

Both played all thier (SIC) teams games

Piston's total POINTS
8113
Rodman's total POINTS
800
Rodman's % of team's POINTS
9.8

Warriors total POINTS
9558
Wilt's total POINTS
3033
Wilt's % of team's rebounds <-- should be POINTS
32

And, Chamberlain's percentage of rebounds in '61 was NOT 36.2 either. He pulled down 2149 out of his team's 5276, or 40.7%.

In his 61-62 season, a year in which he averaged 50.4 ppg, he yanked down 2052 rebounds, out of 5105 total, for 40.2%.

In his 62-63 season, a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg, he ripped off 1946 rebounds, out of 4670, or 41.7%. He also led the NBA in FG%, at .528, which was the record at the time.

In his 65-66 season, a year in which he led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, and set a then-record FG% mark of .540, he pulled down 1943 rebounds, out of a total of 5014, or 38.8%.

In his 66-67 season, he averaged 24.1 ppg, shot an eye-popping .683 from the field, was third in apg at 7.8 apg, and had 1957 rebounds, out of a total of 5101, or 38.4%.

How about his post-season rebounding?

In '61, 69 out of 179, or 38.5%.

In '62, 319 out of 786, or 40.6%.

In '64, 302 out of 738, or 40.9%.

In '65, 299 out of 632, or a whopping 47.3%.

In '66, 151-330, or 45.8%.

In '67, 437-995, or 43.9%.

In '70, 399-981, or 40.6%.

In '71, 242-573, or 42.2%

In '72, 315-811, or 38.8%.

In '73, 383-942, or 40.7%.


Consistently over 40%, year-after-year, especially in the playoffs, when he elevated his rebounding. Of course, he was never outrebounded in any of his 29 post-season series, either. How many other "greats" can make that claim?

And how about Howard's post-season in his 07-08 playoffs? 158-429, or 36.8%.

Or Rodman's post-season in his 91-92 season? 51-184, or a paltry 27.7%.

[millwad]

ISH own buttyboy Jlauber used to say this about the '62 season...

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by jlauber
[I]

[Asukal]

ISH own buttyboy Jlauber used to say this about the '62 season...

Your beloved Jlauber changed his mind regarding Wilt's era and his '62 season more than 40 years after the game took place.. :facepalm

It's safe to say that Jlauber only saw Wilt on youtube..

This is one of the reasons why I don't read his essays. He changed his mind only after reading and watching stuff about Wilt from the internet. At the time when he watched the guy play(if he really did watch any game of Wilt), he didn't think too highly of him. Then years after the guy died, he read some stuff and became obsessed. :facepalm

[jlauber]

ISH own buttyboy Jlauber used to say this about the '62 season...







Your beloved Jlauber changed his mind regarding Wilt's era and his '62 season more than 40 years after the game took place.. :facepalm

It's safe to say that Jlauber only saw Wilt on youtube..

Of course, when a 38 year old Kareem, who could barely get 6 rpg, absolutely MURDERED a 23 year old helpless Hakeem (and keep in mind, that a 23 year old Kareem was scoring 32 ppg and winning the MVP and FMVP) ALL SEASON long (33 ppg on an unbelieveable .634 shooting from the floor), and yet, that 23 year old Kareem was battled to a statistical draw by a 34 year old Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery, in arguably his worst season, and well past his prime...

Of course, YOU claimed that Kareem was NOT guarded by Hakeem in those THREE 40+ point games. However, thanks to YouTube, we KNOW that Kareem just carpet-bombed him with a 40 point game. And, thanks to PHILA and his newspaper recap, we KNOW that a 38 year old Kareem obliterated Hakeem 46-18, in a game in which he went 21-30 from the floor, and only played 37 minutes. In fact, in that recap, Hakeem's coach was ripped for allowing the massacre. Which caused him to have Sampson, with help from Hakeem, guard Kareem in the playoffs that year. And Kareem could then only score 27 ppg.

Or that Kareem, from ages 38 thru 41, shot .599 against Hakeem. While a PRIME Kareem, playing against an OLD Wilt, shot .464 over the course of their 28 H2H games, 27 of which came after Wilt's knee surgery (and in the one game before Chamberlain's surgery, he just CRUSHED Kareem.) My god, in Wilt's LAST season, at age 36 (nearly 37), he played Kareem in six H2H games, and outshot him from the floor by an mind-boggling .737 to .450 margin, including one game in which he outscored the 25 year old Kareem (nearly 26), 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Or that Thurmond routinely reduced a PRIME Kareem to around 40% shooting, and WAY under his normal scoring marks. In fact, while a PRIME Chamberlain could level Thurmond with 30-40+ point games, including one in which he pounded him by a 45-13 margin, ...Kareem's career high game against Thurmond, in 50+ H2H games...34 points.

BTW, a PRIME Shaq ABUSED a 36 year old Hakeem, in their playoff series, including a 37 point game, on 14-22 shooting. Keep in mind that a 36 year old Wilt was OUTPLAYING a 25 year old Kareem in the WCF's. STILL, Shaq's career high against Hakeem was that 37 point game. A PRIME Shaq. Then, think about Kareem, WAY past his prime, SHELLING a young Hakeem with THREE games of 40+, and on just nearly impossible shooting percentages.

And, as we know, a PRIME Kareem never came close to dominating many of the same centers in the fashion that a PRIME Chamberlain did.

Kind of makes these era comparisons a little easier.

[millwad]

Haha, Jlauber..

Again, I don't get butthurt if you diss Hakeem.
It just shows how childish and in what kind of state of mind you are in that you always diss Hakeem because you know I like his game after I make some Wilt comment. You're 56 years old, please, grow up?

And again, just to make it clear, you spam about rookie Akeem and 2nd year pro Akeem getting scored on by Kareem and you write about it like Olajuwon had no chance. The same freaking season, in '86, in only Akeem's 2nd year as a pro he crushed, absolutely destroyed the big men of the Lakers, Kareem included in the playoffs and he lead his team to the finals. A couple of regular season games doesn't mean jack shit and especially not when Olajuwon destroyed Kareem and the Lakers in the playoffs in the same season.

And I don't really care about it but you tend to forget history when it doesn't fit you.

Anyway, my previous post wasn't about Hakeem really, and not Kareem either. It's more the FACT that you didn't watch Chamberlain play, you "discovered" him 40 years after the actual games were played and the only available footage of him is on youtube so it's safe to say that you haven't seen basically anything.

Why the hell are you so obsessed with someone you never saw play other than some all-star games and highlights? You didn't think as highly of Wilt and his era just a couple of years ago so the only things that made you change your mind was some youtube-clips and some articles you found on google.

We all know you didn't see him play, Jlauber, you saw him play on youtube for god sake..:facepalm

BRB, GONNA GOOGLE AND YOUTUBE GEORGE MIKAN AND THEN BECOME OBSESSED WITH HIM.. :facepalm

[millwad]

This is one of the reasons why I don't read his essays. He changed his mind only after reading and watching stuff about Wilt from the internet. At the time when he watched the guy play(if he really did watch any game of Wilt), he didn't think too highly of him. Then years after the guy died, he read some stuff and became obsessed. :facepalm

Yeah, the guy is a joke.
He claims he remembers a bunch games Wilt played in 60's which would be highly unlikely even for someone with an excellent memory.

Personally I barely remember games I saw a couple of years ago and here we have this old fart who claims he remembers more than 40 year old games. The guy himself was only a kid when Wilt was in his prime..

And even if we would trust his memory, why the hell did his memory fail him so hard that he changed his mind about Wilt and his era more than 40 years after the actual games...:facepalm

It's safe to say that the self-proclaim Wilt-historian, Jlauber, only knows Wilt from some googling and youtube-clips..

[jlauber]

Haha, Jlauber..

Again, I don't get butthurt if you diss Hakeem.
It just shows how childish and in what kind of state of mind you are in that you always diss Hakeem because you know I like his game after I make some Wilt comment. You're 56 years old, please, grow up?

And again, just to make it clear, you spam about rookie Akeem and 2nd year pro Akeem getting scored on by Kareem and you write about it like Olajuwon had no chance. The same freaking season, in '86, in only Akeem's 2nd year as a pro he crushed, absolutely destroyed the big men of the Lakers, Kareem included in the playoffs and he lead his team to the finals. A couple of regular season games doesn't mean jack shit and especially not when Olajuwon destroyed Kareem and the Lakers in the playoffs in the same season.

And I don't really care about it but you tend to forget history when it doesn't fit you.

Anyway, my previous post wasn't about Hakeem really, and not Kareem either. It's more the FACT that you didn't watch Chamberlain play, you "discovered" him 40 years after the actual games were played and the only available footage of him is on youtube so it's safe to say that you haven't seen basically anything.

Why the hell are you so obsessed with someone you never saw play other than some all-star games and highlights? You didn't think as highly of Wilt and his era just a couple of years ago so the only things that made you change your mind was some youtube-clips and some articles you found on google.

We all know you didn't see him play, Jlauber, you saw him play on youtube for god sake..:facepalm

BRB, GONNA GOOGLE AND YOUTUBE GEORGE MIKAN AND THEN BECOME OBSESSED WITH HIM.. :facepalm

Funny...I can easily remember Wilt blocking 15 skyhooks against Kareem in the 72 WCF's, and reducing him to a .414 shooter over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, ...and yet you obviously couldn't remember Hakeem being TORCHED by Kareem in the mid-80's in games YOU claimed to have WATCHED.

And the 23 year old Hakeem, doubling with Sampson, outscored the 38 year old Kareem in the playoffs, 31-27 per game. Of course, when Hakeem TRIED to guard Kareem on his own...well, 40 ppg games on 60% shooting were the norm.

Makes you wonder what kind of BLOODBATH we would have witnessed had a 23 year old Kareem faced off against a 38 year old Hakeem.

And, given the fact that a PRIME Kareem was nowhere near as dominant against many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain was...well, maybe we would have seen Wilt averaging 50 ppg against Hakeem.

[Pointguard]

Funny...I can easily remember Wilt blocking 15 skyhooks against Kareem in the 72 WCF's, and reducing him to a .414 shooter over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, ...

WOW :eek: :eek: :eek:

[millwad]

WOW :eek: :eek: :eek:

He forgot to tell you that Wilt in that series got outscored with 23 points per game by Jabbar and that Jabbar also shot with a better FG% through out the series than Wilt..:facepalm

[millwad]

Funny...I can easily remember Wilt blocking 15 skyhooks against Kareem in the 72 WCF's, and reducing him to a .414 shooter over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, ...


Jlauber, you changed your retarded opinion about Wilt's era over youtube and google, if you would have seen any games at all from back then you wouldn't have changed your mind more than 40 years after the actual games because of some articles and youtube highlight videos..

And obviously if you bs would be true then it would have been out in the media as well, nothing indicates that you tell the truth. We've heard all these myths about Wilt and yet you think we will fall for your nonsense about Wilt blocking 15 skyhooks in one series without anyone mentioning it..:facepalm

And since your memory is so good, I guess you also remember that Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting on PRIME DEFENSIVE Wilt in the regular season of '72, the same season Wilt won his 2nd title as the 4th option on offense..

Jlauber, suck it up..

[jlauber]

Jlauber, you changed your retarded opinion about Wilt's era over youtube and google, if you would have seen any games at all from back then you wouldn't have changed your mind more than 40 years after the actual games because of some articles and youtube highlight videos..

And obviously if you bs would be true then it would have been out in the media as well, nothing indicates that you tell the truth. We've heard all these myths about Wilt and yet you think we will fall for your nonsense about Wilt blocking 15 skyhooks in one series without anyone mentioning it..:facepalm

And since your memory is so good, I guess you also remember that Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting on PRIME DEFENSIVE Wilt in the regular season of '72, the same season Wilt won his 2nd title as the 4th option on offense..

Jlauber, suck it up..

Several points. First of all, I have TRASHED you on these topics MANY times, so I apoogize to those that have read these responses before.

Julizaver, who is actually quoted on many sites, because he RESEARCHED this information.


About the mentioned shot-blocking stats of Wilt against Kareem it is from old newspapers finding data from Google news archive search. The most data is from Milwaukee Sentinel and Milwaukee Journal plus LA Times (but the last one is a paid one and I have no access to it, so I tried different tricks to gain data from it)

What I was able to find is that Wilt blocked 21 shots of Kareem from 5 playoff games (out of 11). There are certainly more because in Game 2 of 1971 WCF we have information that Wilt blocked "numerous shots, several against Kareem", but do not know the exact number. In 1972 WCF series Wilt blocked Kareem shots as follows:

in Game 3 - 6 blocks
in Game 5 - 4 blocks
in Game 6 - 3 blocks

At that time the word "sky hook" is not used in the newspapers, so we do not know how many of those shots are hook shots, BUT since those games were televised, someone who used to be present at a time or watch it by TV could claim that Wilt really block sky hooks. I am not one of them - but hope one day they will show it in Classic games.
What we have now as a prove is that Wilt blocked 2 hook shots in row by Kareem in that youtube clip.
And also Wilt blocked Kareem hook shot ( LA Times) in their first NBA encounter in 1969.

Yes, we have VIDEO of Chamberlain blocking TWO "unblockable" skyhooks within SECONDS of one another.

And, yes, blocking the skyhook was mentioned in their first meeting. Why was it mentioned? Because it was considered a phenomenal feat. By the time they had played 28 H2H games, it was considered quite common.

BTW, Julizaver's number in that game six is questionable. Cherry had Chamberlain with FIVE, not three, as did this recap (thanks to ThaRegul8r):

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1046843


Game 6: Wilt had 22 points on 8-for-12 (66.7%) shooting, 24 rebounds and nine blocked shots—five of them on Kareem, and held Kareem—who had 37 points on 16-for-36 shooting (44.4%), 25 rebounds and eight assists—to 2-for-8 shooting (25%) in the game’s final 10 minutes as the Lakers won 104-100 to advance to the NBA Finals. West scored 12 of his 25 points in the fourth quarter, and Chamberlain nine, as the Lakers came back from a 10-point deficit.

TIME magazine wrote: “In the N.B.A.’s western division title series with Milwaukee, he decisively outplayed basketball’s newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior” (“One for the Dipper.” TIME. 22 May 1972. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/print ... 93,00.html).

Now, that means 15 blocks in just THREE of their SIX meetings in that series.

Furthermore, we have these links:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/01/06/all.time/index.html


You can still find fans walking around who were present when Chamberlain allegedly blocked 20 shots in consecutive games of the Lakers' '72 playoff series against Milwaukee -- 11 of the blocks supposedly at Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's expense when he was 25 and Wilt was 35. Late referee Earl Strom used to tell people that Chamberlain and Russell probably averaged about eight blocks each in their prime, which would have gotten them to Hakeem Olajuwon's "all-time" record -- that is, his post-'73, modern mark of 3,830 -- in less than six full seasons.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/01/06/all.time/index.html#ixzz1goAwkTDe

What is important about that quote, is that it mentions CONSECUTIVE games. Which means that Chamberlain either blocked FIVE, or SIX, in yet ANOTHER game in that series.

So that now means that Wilt had some 20+ blocks in FOUR games of that series.

BTW, here is a similar link:

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Robert-Allen-Cherry/dp/1572436727


Bill Russell may have won all those championships, but not even Russell was a match for Wilt statisically. Chamberlain almost always outscored and out rebounded Russell in every encounter. Russell no doubt almost always had the better teams. Abdul Jabbar played 20 seasons to Wilts 13, and yet Chamberlain has several thousand more lifetime rebounds. In the twilight of his career, a 35 year old Wilt led the Lakers to victory over the Bucks and a 25 year old Jabbar during the 1972 playoffs. Even more astounding, was wilt blocked 20 shots in two consecutive games in that series, and 11 of those blocked shots were on Kareem. Who the heck ever did that to Jabbar. Makes you wonder what Wilt would have done in his prime. As great as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson were, none of them had the impact or dominance of Wilt Chamberlain. The rules of the game were altered upon Wilts arrival into the league. Modern day fans talk of Shaq being the greatest center of all-time. Does anyone out there think Shaq could have blocked 11 Kareem shots in two games? Shaq wouldn't have been able to leap high enough to block a skyhook. That statistic alone, should be enough to convince anyone of Wilts athleticism.

What is the significance of the above? He mentions Wilt blocking 11 of Kareem's shots in two games, and THEN, he uses the term SKYHOOK right along with them.

How about this link, from the same person who brought us the SPECTACULAR block by Chamberlain, in college, when his fingertips were within a few inches of the top of the backboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIUXjVKehI


What a steaming pile of hot garbage. Wilt blocked Kareem's skyhook 23 times in one playoff series, and 7 of those were in ONE game. He's blocks a left and right handed release twice in 10 seconds and you think Kareem let him!?!? Chamberlain was special, we barely have any footage of him yet somehow a clip of him doing this twice in a row surfaces? It's because he did it OFTEN. He was the ONLY player to ever make the skyhook look as weak as a normal hook shot, he was an anti-skyhook
dantheman9758 1 month ago


Julizaver also mentions two other H2H's, in which Chamberlain blocked SIX of Kareem's shots, and another in which he had "numerous" blocks. So, in just FIVE H2H games, Chamberlain had RECORDED 21+ (and that does not include the "numerous.) Then, in their first encounter (in a game in which Wilt just DOMINATED Kareem in EVERY facet), Wilt blocked THREE more of Kareem's shots.

Were they skyhook? Answer me this...if they weren't (and as Pointguard pointed out in another thread), WHY would Kareem take anything BUT the skyhook against Wilt.

In fact, it was the exact OPPOSITE. Wilt was knocking the skyhook all over the gym when they played, and Kareem had to RESORT to shooting other, longer shots, in which he shot just as poorly.


And here is the VIDEO of Wilt easily blocking TWO in a row...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYq4CWeWaKg

Now, that is MY evidence. Give me YOUR research which would disprove all of the above! And, while you are at, maybe you can find the recaps in Kareem's career, which would ROUTINELY give us BOTH, how many skyhooks he took in his games, and how many other shots that he took. The reality was, the VAST MAJORITY of Kareem' shots were SKYHOOKS. And you will find VERY FEW, if any, recaps which would break up his FGAs with skyhooks, and non-skyhooks.

CLEARLY, Wilt was ROUTINELY slapping Kareem's "unblockable" skyhook all over the floor.

[jlauber]

And since your memory is so good, I guess you also remember that Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting on PRIME DEFENSIVE Wilt in the regular season of '72, the same season Wilt won his 2nd title as the 4th option on offense..


Once again Dickwad...you FAIL miserably.

A PRIME DEFENSIVE Chamberlain???

He was in his PRIME in the mid-60's. How about this?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Look closely...

Russell has the top-six seasons in NBA history, and then Wilt has #7 and 8. And they were in his PRIME, in the mid-60's, in the 67-68 and 63-64 seasons. And, those that actually witnessed Wilt's 66-67 season, would tell you he was INPENETRABLE in that season (when he reduced Thurmond and Russell to 100 points under their seasonal FG%'s.)

Wilt was the best defensive player in the league in 71-72, no question. Had the award existed, he would surely have won DPOY.

As for Kareem's regular season numbers against Wilt that season (which was the ONLY regular season in which he even shot 50% against Chamberlain, and it was right at 50%.) In the ONE big game he had, a 50 point game on 22-39 shooting, the Lakers BLEW OUT the Bucks, 123-107 (and Chamberlain held Kareem to 0-6 shooting in his last six shots BTW), and outrebounded Kareem by a staggering 25-8 margin.

Of course, that was a 35 year old Wilt. THEN, in the playoffs, he held Kareem to 33 ppg on 35 FGAs per game, and to an overall .457 FG%. Even more impressive, was the fact that Chamberlain completely dominated him in the last FOUR games of that series, holding him to .414 shooting in that span.

And, in the clinching game six win, Chamberlain led a 4th quarter comeback from a 10 point deficit, by shutting Kareem down to 2-8 shooting, while pouring in NINE points himself. And, in that game, Wilt came up CLUTCH, with 22 points, on 8-12 shooting, 24 rebounds, and nine blocks (FIVE on Kareem.)

Once again, TIME MAGAZINE hailed Wilt's performance as a DECISIVE win. Even the MILWAUKEE press and COACH conceded that it was WILT that was the difference.

Just read PHILA's great post on the topic...again, with RESEARCH,...something that you NEVER bring to the table.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235497&page=2

BTW, here is Kareem and Wilt's first 11 H2H games (one in the 69-70 season, and TEN in the 70-71 season)

Kareem averaged 26.1 ppg to Wilt's 22.8 ppg, while Chamberlain outrebounded Kareem, 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg, and outshot Kareem, .497 to .454. And, keep in mind that TEN of the ELEVEN games came in the 70-71 season, when Wilt was 34, a year removed from major knee surgery, and in arguably his WORST season of his career. Meanwhile, that may very well have been Kareem's BEST season (if you include the post-season.) 32 ppg, 16 rpg, .577 shooting, which was his highest differential compared to league average, of his career (.577 to .449...or .128 above.)

Oh, and BTW, how about their LAST six encounters? A 36 year old Wilt outshot the 26 year old Kareem by an eyepopping .737 to .450 margin, which even included one game in which he outscored Kareem, 24-21, and outshot him, 10-14 to 10-27.

As for Wilt being the FOURTH option in the 71-72 season? Hmmm, in the Finals, he averaged 19.1 ppg, 23.2 rpg, and shot .600 from thr field. He nearly duplicated his 69-70 Finals, which is the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 from the floor.) Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain won the FINALS MVP too...and at age 35!

Incidently, and as a sidenote, Chamberlain PLAYED in the clinching game five win of the '72 Finals, with one wrist severely sprained, and the other FRACTURED. And not only did he play, he DOMINATED. He scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the entire Knick team had 39 BTW), and NINE blocks. I bring that up because we know that Kareem MISSED chunks of TWO different seasons, with a broken wrist. And, yet, here was a 35 year old Wilt, OVERWHELMING the Knicks, in a title-clinching game (remember, Kareem skipped the title clinching game in '80 with sprained ankle...while Magic carried LA to a title)...with a broken wrist!

The real question, of course, would have been...what would a PRIME Chamberlain have LEVELED a PRIME Kareem with? We do KNOW that a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant, and even against MANY of the SAME centers that Kareem would face later on.