Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

[oolalaa]

Worthy is overrated. I have seen him pretty high up on some peoples SF lists. But the question is, how overrated?

He was a good/very good scorer, a fantastic athlete who was as devastating on the fast break as he was hitting mid range jumpers. But, he was an average defender, an average playmaker and an average rebounder.

Couldn't the Lakers have won 4 championships between 83' and 88' with Dominique instead of Worthy? or Alex English? Was he really better than Adrian Dantley? or Bernard King? or Kiki Vandeweghe? or even Mark Aguirre?

Worthy was a fantastic complimentary player, an unbelievable 3rd option to have and a good 2nd option. He was perfect for those mid 80s Laker teams and had some big playoff games.

But come on people. WHAT IF THE SAN DIEGO CLIPPERS HAD DRAFTED HIM?!


Edit:

Some clarification:

Most people consider Worthy to be 'greater' than (you know, higher on all time lists) other small forwards from that era such as nique, english, dantley, king etc.

Now i am asking, is that because he was the better player or because he was fortunate to land on the perfect team?

I try to judge players in a vacuum. I try to put their team accomplishments into perspective. It can be very hard sometimes :lol

[JohnnySic]

He was a very good player but putting him into the all-time 50 greatest is indeed overrating him. He was not better than Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, and others...

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't see how someone would come to the conclusion that Kiki or Alex English were better than Worthy. Or Aguirre for that matter. Bernard King during his short prime? Yes. Haven't seen much of Dantley on the Jazz, but he wasn't as good as Worthy when he was a Piston, and he had a chance to win as a guy who wasn't the best player on a loaded team. Maybe they should've won in '88, but he wasn't as good in that role on a contender as Worthy, and Detroit got better after he left.

Worthy was a beast in transition, a reliable mid-range shooter, almost unstoppable in the post, a very good passer out of the post and he almost always raised his game in the playoffs.

There were series when you could argue he was the Lakers MVP. Take the '87 WCF for example when he averaged 30 and was their most consistent player in the series.

[Kblaze8855]

He was a better than average defensive player id so if only for his mobility at his size and the effort he would put in for the right matchups.

And I wouldnt call him overrated at all. Too many people are barely aware of his impact on those teams. He was the halfcourt down the stretch go to guy by the late 80s. He never had numbers and Magic personally gift wrapped him like 12 points a game but some credit must be given for his ability to run the floor and his hands and finishing ability.

He was as held back by the talent he played with as he was made to look good I believe. He only played like 1-2 healthy months as a franchise player.

But he showed me all I needed to see. Im not gonna call him overrated for buying into his team and playing a role to win. I dont buy for a second that if you put him on his spot and feed like like Nique, Dantley, and King types got that he wouldnt do numbers.

But it just wasnt gonna happen. And he was fine with it.

[TheBluest]

Who overrates James Worthy?

^^^^^^

That's a better question

Do ISH posters raise these kinds of mind numbing questions because they are trying to show how much they know about the league past/present?

[DirtySanchez]

How is Big Game James overrated in the first place?

Nobody calls him the GOAT forward. Nobody says he is better then such and such.

Really nobody says anything except he was a great player who won rings with Magic.

I see no reason for this thread.

[Kensta]

I watched him play and I think he is overrated. I also think he may the only Top 50 GPOAT that wasn't a first ballot HOFer.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Worhty was an amazing talent that fit in perfectly with his team. If he would have been drafted elswhere he would have had more individual success but less team success. Look how few shots it took him to get his points. The dude had a bum knee otherwise he would have been able toplay longer a s well. Worthy isn't overrated in the least.

Dennis Rodman who is on of the all-time great defenders said that Worhty was the one play he couldn't guard. He said "I'd be trying to figure out if I should go over the screen or under the screen and boom, he'd be at the rim."

[oolalaa]

How is Big Game James overrated in the first place?

Nobody calls him the GOAT forward. Nobody says he is better then such and such.

Really nobody says anything except he was a great player who won rings with Magic.

I see no reason for this thread.

Since when does a thread have to have a reason for it's existence? I simply wanted to start a small discussion on James Worthy. I'm not settled on what i think of him yet...

[Kblaze8855]

I watched him play and I think he is overrated. I also think he may the only Top 50 GPOAT that wasn't a first ballot HOFer.

Nah he wasnt.

Not that it matters. The HOF voting is often a joke. Nique didnt get in on the first try. Bing, Monroe, Cowens, Gervin, Sam Jones, Nate thurmond, and others didnt make it first ballot. some of those guys I just mentioned took 10-15 years. Monroe got in in the 90s and he retired in the late 70s or maybe 1980 or 81 at the latest.

[brownmamba00]

No, if anything he's one of the most underrated players OAT.

Since ISH loves games 7's and triple double's so much
36 points, 16 rebounds and 10 Assists - game 7, '88 finals against the Pistons :bowdown:

[oolalaa]

Who overrates James Worthy?

^^^^^^

That's a better question

Do ISH poster raise these kinds of mind numbing questions because they are trying to show how much they know about the league past/present?

:cry:

[Lakerlove420]

I feel that there is more under-rating(hating)
than over-rating Worthy. He is right where he should be.
In the top 50 All Time, number retired by Lakers,
and in my top 5 favorite players all time.

Versions of this thread come out all the time..sleeping
Why the hate for Worthy? The guy was not a scrub.
Why you try to make him out to be a Luke Walton type?



Fact: Worthy >>> Pierce
Fact: haters gonna hate.

[oolalaa]

I feel that there is more under-rating(hating)
than over-rating Worthy. He is right where he should be.
In the top 50 All Time, number retired by Lakers,
and in my top 5 favorite players all time.

Versions of this thread come out all the time..sleeping
Why the hate for Worthy? The guy was not a scrub.
Why you try to make him out to be a Luke Walton type?



Fact: Worthy >>> Pierce
Fact: haters gonna hate.

Why/how is he better than pierce?

[TheBluest]

I feel that there is more under-rating(hating)
than over-rating Worthy. He is right where he should be.
In the top 50 All Time, number retired by Lakers,
and in my top 5 favorite players all time.

Versions of this thread come out all the time..sleeping
Why the hate for Worthy? The guy was not a scrub.
Why you try to make him out to be a Luke Walton type?



Fact: Worthy >>> Pierce
Fact: haters gonna hate.


Not sure I'd go that far Pierce is legendary in his own right but I don't see how a fan of the game can pose such a question if they haven't formed an opinion of said player?

Just because he cracks top 50 All-Time doesn't mean he's overrated. I mean look at how many great players aren't on the list to this day...It's obvious the list needs to be redone....

such as adding

Payton/Miller/Rodman/Wilkins/Ray Allen/Webber/Dirk/Mourning/Garnett/Wade/Lebron/Tim Duncan/Durant/Pierce/Kobe etc etc. when the list was made he deserved to be considered and make the list

I would like posters who make these kinds of threads to first define what makes players overrated, otherwise threads like these makes no sense.

[Kensta]

Nah he wasnt.

Not that it matters. The HOF voting is often a joke. Nique didnt get in on the first try. Bing, Monroe, Cowens, Gervin, Sam Jones, Nate thurmond, and others didnt make it first ballot. some of those guys I just mentioned took 10-15 years. Monroe got in in the 90s and he retired in the late 70s or maybe 1980 or 81 at the latest.

Wow, did not know that.

[winwin]

- Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players?

- ask freshman Michael Jordan about his mentor and techer

[Duncan21formvp]

Worthy is overrated. I have seen him pretty high up on some peoples SF lists. But the question is, how overrated?

He was a good/very good scorer, a fantastic athlete who was as devastating on the fast break as he was hitting mid range jumpers. But, he was an average defender, an average playmaker and an average rebounder.

Couldn't the Lakers have won 4 championships between 83' and 88' with Dominique instead of Worthy? or Alex English? Was he really better than Adrian Dantley? or Bernard King? or Kiki Vandeweghe? or even Mark Aguirre?

Worthy was a fantastic complimentary player, an unbelievable 3rd option to have and a good 2nd option. He was perfect for those mid 80s Laker teams and had some big playoff games.

But come on people. WHAT IF THE SAN DIEGO CLIPPERS HAD DRAFTED HIM?!

When you put up 36/16/10 in game 7 of the NBA Finals you sure as hell ain't overrated.

[oolalaa]

Not sure I'd go that far Pierce is legendary in his own right but I don't see how a fan of the game can pose such a question if they haven't formed an opinion of said player?

Just because he cracks top 50 All-Time doesn't mean he's overrated. I mean look at how many great players aren't on the list to this day...It's obvious the list needs to be redone....

such as adding

Payton/Miller/Rodman/Wilkins/Ray Allen/Webber/Dirk/Mourning/Garnett/Wade/Lebron/Tim Duncan/Durant/Pierce etc etc. when the list was made he deserved to be considered and make the list

I would like posters who make these kinds of threads to first define what makes players overrated, otherwise threads like these makes no sense.

Okay then. Some clarification:

Most people consider Worthy to be 'greater' than (you know, higher on all time lists) other small forwards from that era such as nique, king, dantley, king etc.

Now i am asking, is that because he was the better player player or because he was fortunate to land on the perfect team?

I try to judge players in a vacuum. I try to put their team accomplishments into perspective. It can be very hard sometimes :lol

[TheBluest]

Okay then. Some clarification:

Most people consider Worthy to be 'greater' than (you know, higher on all time lists) other small forwards from that era such as nique, king, dantley, king etc.

Now i am asking, is that because he was the better player player or because he was fortunate to land on the perfect team?

I try to judge players in a vacuum. I try to put their team accomplishments into perspective. It can be very hard sometimes :lol


Is Lebron a greater player because he's playing with Wade and Bosh?

Is Garnett a greater player because he's playing with Peirce and Allen?

Was Nash a greater player when he played with Dirk and Finley?

Was Kobe a greater player next to Pau/Lamar/Artest?


Individually Worthy may not have been as great as those players you listed but this is a TEAM sport still and you can't take a player's impact on TEAM play away from their greatness. Is this not what makes Magic crack Top 5 on most list? It's because of what he was able to accomplish via TEAM play because his numbers in certain areas of the game don't blow you away.

[NugzHeat3]

Anybody have Worthy's numbers from 1986-1991 in the games Magic didn't play in?

[PTB Fan]

He's not overrated. I have him at #11 on my top SF list.

[bizil]

Well I think Worthy could have been a scoring machine franchise player a hair below the level of Nique, King, English, and Dantley. Meaning putting up around 27 points a night peak value wise. The other four were getting 30 points a night at their best. But Worthy was a better defender than all four of them. He was also the biggest at 6'9 230 pounds. And he played lots of PF early in his career. James was a beast and in my book passes the eye test for an alpha dog caliber SF, even though he was the second or third option for some of those Laker teams.

In terms of GOAT u factor longevity being great,numbers, team accolades,and solo accolades. In this sense, I would rank these at the GOAT SF's:

Bird
Doc
Hondo
Baylor
Barry
Lebron
Pip
Nique
Billy C
Pierce

I think Worthy has a case to be in the top ten SF's ever considering all factors along with English, Dantley, King. But peak value wise I would say: (no order after the top 4)

Bird
Lebron
Doc
Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Nique
G Hill
King
Billy C.

So James in my book is probably rated just right. I feel Nique should have been on the 50 greatest and was better than Worthy. However I would leave James on and take off somebody else like Shaq, who had played only 5 years.

[Round Mound]

He is Overrated and Underrated

He would have been a great 2nd option

The thing he had over Nique, King, Dantley and English was Defense and Versatility: He Was a Better Defender and Could Play and Guard SFs and PFs both. Thats what made him as good or Better than probablhy English. Not Dantley, Nique or King: I consider them Better.

[knickswin]

it drives me crazy when mj gets credited for that unc championship even though james worthy was their best player

[bdreason]

I've always thought Worthy was actually overlooked and underrated. Making the top 50 list doesn't mean anything.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I though Kobrick Cryant was :confusedshrug:

[Xiao Yao You]

He was always overrated. Fortunate to have played where and when he did. I never thought he was a lot better than Scott but he got a lot more credit.

[bizil]

He is Overrated and Underrated

He would have been a great 2nd option

The thing he had over Nique, King, Dantley and English was Defense and Versatility: He Was a Better Defender and Could Play and Guard SFs and PFs both. Thats what made him as good or Better than probablhy English. Not Dantley, Nique or King: I consider them Better.

Exactly right! He is a player u could consider overrated and underrated. Versatility and D is what he had over those SF's u named. But after Dr. J slowed down, I always considered Bird, Nique, and King the top three SF's in the L. Bird the clear number one and a tossup between King and Nique for number two. Once King got that injury bug, it was Nique as the clear number two. Once Bird slowed, it was then Nique, Pip, and Mullin battling for SF supremacy. I happen to think Nique was the best during that time then Pip eventually eclipsed him.

[AllenIverson3]

top 5 most overrated

[Euroleague]

I would have to say yes.

[WillC]

I don't think he's overrated.

I just think other 1980s small forwards are underrated by comparison.

Ask a casual fan if they've heard of James Worthy and, chances are, the answer will be 'yes'.

Those same fans probably won't have heard of Alex English, Adrian Dantley or Bernard King (unless they grew up watching the Knicks).

More serious and older basketball fans will have a better perspective on things and realise that Worthy was a very talented player and deserving of his credit, but realise that he wasn't necessarily much better than an Alex English or a Dominique Wilkins.

Certainly, if Wilkins had been on the Lakers, he'd also have those championships and would surely be more highly regarded. Instead, he's remembered as a dunker who was somewhat selfish, which is perhaps unfair.

[jlauber]

Overrated? Not sure where he is generally ranked, but yes, I would take him over Dantley, King, and Wilkins in terms of overall careers.

From '87 thru '90, Worthy was generally the second best player on the floor in all of his playoff games. And while Magic was more deserving in '88, Worthy did win a FMVP, which elevated his career over the above players for sure.

Having said that, IMHO, Dantley was truly one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. He was clearly the best scorer in the league from the early 80's until MJ came along later in the decade. And his ability to score 30+ ppg on 18-20 FGAs per game in a span of several seasons was just phenomenal. 30 ppg on .559 to .580 shooting...and all from a 6-5 210 POST player!

[Collie]

Let's just say if James Worthy had landed on the Clippers or say, a team like the Hawks, he would not have had the career that Nique had.

He wasn't a better player than Nique, but I'm not sure if Nique would have fit those Laker teams better. I guess it's a combination of Worthy being a great complimentary star and him being able to play with Magic.

I do think Nique + Magic would have been something special, the REAL lob city if you will.

[JtotheIzzo]

Threads like this plss me off, and lol at the clowns who said they saw him play and think he is overrated.

Worthy was a Finals MVP
Worthy had the quickest first step in the league
Worthy was the deadliest fast break finisher in the league and one of the main reasons 'Showtime' was 'Showtime'.
Worthy always drew the toughest defensive assignment and excelled. Do you think old man Kareem or slow ass Magic was stopping ANYBODY?

The f*ckin guy's nickname was 'Big Game James' because of his clutchness for crisesakes!!!

The f*ck outta here with the hate.

[SpecialQue]

No.

[JtotheIzzo]

Overrated? Not sure where he is generally ranked, but yes, I would take him over Dantley, King, and Wilkins in terms of overall careers.

From '87 thru '90, Worthy was generally the second best player on the floor in all of his playoff games. And while Magic was more deserving in '88, Worthy did win a FMVP, which elevated his career over the above players for sure.

Having said that, IMHO, Dantley was truly one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. He was clearly the best scorer in the league from the early 80's until MJ came along later in the decade. And his ability to score 30+ ppg on 18-20 FGAs per game in a span of several seasons was just phenomenal. 30 ppg on .559 to .580 shooting...and all from a 6-5 210 POST player!

Yep, but you are forgetting the fact that Detroit had to trade him to get over the hump and win their first championship.

They saw him as the weak link and an impediment to winning it all.

Kind of puts a damper on his statistical glory, which came much easier in the 80s, and especially in the regular season.

[Lakerlove420]

Threads like this plss me off, and lol at the clowns who said they saw him play and think he is overrated.

Worthy was a Finals MVP
Worthy had the quickest first step in the league
Worthy was the deadliest fast break finisher in the league and one of the main reasons 'Showtime' was 'Showtime'.
Worthy always drew the toughest defensive assignment and excelled. Do you think old man Kareem or slow ass Magic was stopping ANYBODY?

The f*ckin guy's nickname was 'Big Game James' because of his clutchness for crisesakes!!!

The f*ck outta here with the hate.

well said.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Threads like this plss me off, and lol at the clowns who said they saw him play and think he is overrated.

Worthy was a Finals MVP
Worthy had the quickest first step in the league
Worthy was the deadliest fast break finisher in the league and one of the main reasons 'Showtime' was 'Showtime'.
Worthy always drew the toughest defensive assignment and excelled. Do you think old man Kareem or slow ass Magic was stopping ANYBODY?

The f*ckin guy's nickname was 'Big Game James' because of his clutchness for crisesakes!!!

The f*ck outta here with the hate.

Sanity finally prevails. Repped.

[jlauber]

Yep, but you are forgetting the fact that Detroit had to trade him to get over the hump and win their first championship.

They saw him as the weak link and an impediment to winning it all.

Kind of puts a damper on his statistical glory, which came much easier in the 80s, and especially in the regular season.

Dantley was on the downside of his career when he was playing with the Pistons. He was still an efficient shooter, but his scoring had dropped considerably by the time he was in Detroit, and his career was basically over after the Pistons traded him.

And you certainly couldn't fault him for Detroit not winning the title in '88. Dantley averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting from the floor, and .859 from the line (and he was BY FAR, the Pistons leading scorer from the line.)

And given the fact that the Lakers were wiped out by injuries in the '89 Finals, I think AD would have won a title with that team.

Having said all of that, Dantley was a pure scorer, and arguably the most efficient non-center scorer in NBA history. And he even had a couple of seasons of 4.0+ apg, as well. Still, he was not a good rebounder, nor a good defender.

I haven't taken the time to determine where Dantley would rank all-time, but only Kareem can claim a 30+ ppg season on .570 shooting. And AD had four seasons of 30+ ppg on .558+ shooting. Not even Kareem can make that claim.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dantley was on the downside of his career when he was playing with the Pistons. He was still an efficient shooter, but his scoring had dropped considerably by the time he was in Detroit, and his career was basically over after the Pistons traded him.

And you certainly couldn't fault him for Detroit not winning the title in '88. Dantley averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting from the floor, and .859 from the line (and he was BY FAR, the Pistons leading scorer from the line.)

And given the fact that the Lakers were wiped out by injuries in the '89 Finals, I think AD would have won a title with that team.

Like I said, I can't claim to be an expert on Dantley's game with Utah, but are you sure he was past his prime when he went to Detroit?

You just mentioned his scoring going down, but isn't that to be expected when going to a better team? Particularly a team like Detroit with so many weapons?

1985-1986 w/ Utah- 29.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3 TO, 56.3 FG%, 62.9 TS%, 36.1 mpg (29 years old)
1986-1987 w/ Detroit- 21.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2 apg, 2.2 TO, 53.4 FG%, 61.4 TS%, 33.8 mpg (30 years old)

He played less minutes with Detroit and dropped from 19.1 FGA to 13.9 FGA.

In '88, Detroit was 54-28 overall, 44-25 with Dantley and 13-6 when Dantley came off the bench. A 10-3 record without him is pretty damn good.

Detroit was 30-12 with Dantley in '89, but 30-6 with Mark Aguirre and 28-4 with Aguirre starting.

Dallas was also better with Dantley than Aguirre. The Mavs went 25-19 with Aguirre and 11-20 with Dantley, 9-16 when Dantley started.

And speaking of Dantley's scoring falling off when he went to Detroit, well Mark Aguirre was 29 in 1989. And he went from 21.7 ppg with Dallas in 34.8 mpg to 15.5 ppg in 29.7 mpg with Detroit.

So while I'm not making a statement one way or the other, there is evidence to suggest that Dantley's impact wasn't half as big as the stats suggest. The knock on him from everything I've heard was that he was a black hole who held the ball for an extremely long time to get his shot. I thought he was impressive with Detroit, but I have my doubts that a contending team was ever going to have him averaging 30.

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.

Hey man, what happened to your YT channel?

[Kovach]

More serious and older basketball fans will have a better perspective on things and realise that Worthy was a very talented player and deserving of his credit, but realise that he wasn't necessarily much better than an Alex English or a Dominique Wilkins.

Incidentally, no one in the league made Worthy look great on offense better than those 2. Not a fan of Nique, love English but I would take Worthy over them any day.

[Xiao Yao You]

Dantley was on the downside of his career when he was playing with the Pistons. He was still an efficient shooter, but his scoring had dropped considerably by the time he was in Detroit

Don't think he'd lost much if anything by that time. His numbers went down a bit his last year in Utah but that had more to do with Karl Malone joining him.


he was not a good rebounder

He hit the offensive boards and I've heard it said he was really only 6'2 not the 6'5 he was listed at.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hey man, what happened to your YT channel?

Got banned for copyright shit. Started a new one, but I've only uploaded 1 game so far.

[Legends66NBA7]

Got banned for copyright shit. Started a new one, but I've only uploaded 1 game so far.

What's the new name of you're YT channel ?

[ShaqAttack3234]

What's the new name of you're YT channel ?

returnofshaqattack. I'll have a few more games up soon, but as I said, just have 1 right now.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was a good/very good scorer, a fantastic athlete who was as devastating on the fast break as he was hitting mid range jumpers. But, he was an average defender, an average playmaker and an average rebounder.

He was actually considered a very good defender. Not all-league or anything, but very good. The other points I'll definitely concede.

[97 bulls]

I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

Sort of deceptive. Worthy battled injuries all year (consequently missed 30 games). Guy was never the same afterwards.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

While I don't agree with your assessment of Worthy at all, I do agree with this part. Circumstances are extremely important when looking at how much a player excelled and how much they accomplished.

With that being said, you stated that Worthy couldn't be doubled because of the Lakers talent, but he was doubled quite a bit in the post because he was a devastating post player. And he could pass out of double teams quite well. That's why I think he could do just fine on more of a halfcourt team. He had arguably his best season in 1990, and the Lakers pace had slowed considerably by that point with both Magic and Worthy's post up games being as important as their transition game, if not more.

[oolalaa]

Having said that, IMHO, Dantley was truly one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. He was clearly the best scorer in the league from the early 80's until MJ came along later in the decade. And his ability to score 30+ ppg on 18-20 FGAs per game in a span of several seasons was just phenomenal. 30 ppg on .559 to .580 shooting...and all from a 6-5 210 POST player!

That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.

[chadcas]

I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.

[oolalaa]

I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.

Steady on now :lol . You're right though, Nique would have been seen in a much different light if he was drafted by L.A. I'm fairly confident they could have rattled off 3 titles in 4 years with him instead of Worthy.

[oolalaa]

I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

Well said, especially the bolded.

[oolalaa]

I don't see how someone would come to the conclusion that Kiki or Alex English were better than Worthy. Or Aguirre for that matter. Bernard King during his short prime? Yes. Haven't seen much of Dantley on the Jazz, but he wasn't as good as Worthy when he was a Piston, and he had a chance to win as a guy who wasn't the best player on a loaded team. Maybe they should've won in '88, but he wasn't as good in that role on a contender as Worthy, and Detroit got better after he left.

Worthy was a beast in transition, a reliable mid-range shooter, almost unstoppable in the post, a very good passer out of the post and he almost always raised his game in the playoffs.

There were series when you could argue he was the Lakers MVP. Take the '87 WCF for example when he averaged 30 and was their most consistent player in the series.

I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc

[97 bulls]

While I don't agree with your assessment of Worthy at all, I do agree with this part. Circumstances are extremely important when looking at how much a player excelled and how much they accomplished.

With that being said, you stated that Worthy couldn't be doubled because of the Lakers talent, but he was doubled quite a bit in the post because he was a devastating post player. And he could pass out of double teams quite well. That's why I think he could do just fine on more of a halfcourt team. He had arguably his best season in 1990, and the Lakers pace had slowed considerably by that point with both Magic and Worthy's post up games being as important as their transition game, if not more.
What is there to disagree with? Weren't a large portion of his pts off the fastbreak?

And like I stated earlier, look at his 92 season. Was he injured? Yes but in thee games he played in the lakers were 28-26. So he wasn't a game changer. And they still had scott, green and a pretty good PG in sedale threat

[ShaqAttack3234]

What is there to disagree with? Weren't a large portion of his pts off the fastbreak?

And like I stated earlier, look at his 92 season. Was he injured? Yes but in thee games he played in the lakers were 28-26. So he wasn't a game changer. And they still had scott, green and a pretty good PG in sedale threat

I think he was a much better passer than you do, I think he was better than an "ok at best" defender, I did see him get doubled quite a bit when he posted up and think he would've done just fine on a team that didn't run as much.

Yes, he did score quite a bit in transition, but I don't think he relied on it.

So I disagree with those parts. As far as the '92 Lakers? They had a lot of injuries. Not just Magic's abrupt retirement, but Sam Perkins and Worthy went down around the same time, that's their 2 leading scorers and Vlade Divac missed more than half of the season.

The Lakers were 23-15 before Worthy missed a game.



I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc

From everything I've seen of Kiki, he was a good shooter, had some nice fairly deceptive moves and good size for a small forward as well as a player with his shooting touch, but his scoring was inflated due to his extremely fast-paced teams and the era. Plus, he seemed to be one-dimensional and a horrible defender.

I doubt you'll find many who would put him in Worthy's class.

[La Frescobaldi]

Well I think Worthy could have been a scoring machine franchise player a hair below the level of Nique, King, English, and Dantley. Meaning putting up around 27 points a night peak value wise. The other four were getting 30 points a night at their best. But Worthy was a better defender than all four of them. He was also the biggest at 6'9 230 pounds. And he played lots of PF early in his career. James was a beast and in my book passes the eye test for an alpha dog caliber SF, even though he was the second or third option for some of those Laker teams.

In terms of GOAT u factor longevity being great,numbers, team accolades,and solo accolades. In this sense, I would rank these at the GOAT SF's:

Bird
Doc
Hondo
Baylor
Barry
Lebron
Pip
Nique
Billy C
Pierce

I think Worthy has a case to be in the top ten SF's ever considering all factors along with English, Dantley, King. But peak value wise I would say: (no order after the top 4)

Bird
Lebron
Doc
Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Nique
G Hill
King
Billy C.

So James in my book is probably rated just right. I feel Nique should have been on the 50 greatest and was better than Worthy. However I would leave James on and take off somebody else like Shaq, who had played only 5 years.

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe he was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.

[97 bulls]

I think he was a much better passer than you do, I think he was better than an "ok at best" defender, I did see him get doubled quite a bit when he posted up and think he would've done just fine on a team that didn't run as much.

Yes, he did score quite a bit in transition, but I don't think he relied on it.

So I disagree with those parts. As far as the '92 Lakers? They had a lot of injuries. Not just Magic's abrupt retirement, but Sam Perkins and Worthy went down around the same time, that's their 2 leading scorers and Vlade Divac missed more than half of the season.

The Lakers were 23-15 before Worthy missed a game.




From everything I've seen of Kiki, he was a good shooter, had some nice fairly deceptive moves and good size for a small forward as well as a player with his shooting touch, but his scoring was inflated due to his extremely fast-paced teams and the era. Plus, he seemed to be one-dimensional and a horrible defender.

I doubt you'll find many who would put him in Worthy's class.
The lakers were 28-26 in the games he played in. And finished with a 43 win season. Now I'm not saying divac and perkins missing games didn't have an effect. But let's be honest, you can say that about a lot of players. Hell most players and teams. It wasn't like he missed these guys and still led the lakers to 50 plus wins.

[oolalaa]

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe he was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.

Firstly, Kevin McHale was a power forward!!

Secondly, i like Chet Walker aswell - i think he has a decent case for the HOF - but he wasn't in Cunninghams class offensively.

[La Frescobaldi]

I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc

Kiki was a gun. His D was never real high quality, lotta guys got into shootouts with him.
Kiki could really drive early on in his career. He was a real slasher but then he hurt his back about midway through his career, so he changed his style into a bomber. He played in the early era of the 3 point line when strategy was real confused.

It was the offensive plan for 40 years that you get the ball into the paint to score. The 3 point line left coaches groping for a plan because although guys all the way back to Bill Sharman in the 50s were taking 25 foot shots, they were usually done on the flat run in a transition game. They'd do bombs away on a fast break while the center or a big forward crashed into the paint for the putback.

Kiki tho.... to me he understood what that 3 point line was doing to the game maybe before some other guys... and being a good shot, he took advantage of it sooner.

Other thing about VandeWeghe is - he didn't invent the Dirk one foot fadeaway jumper - guys like Don Ohl, Lou Hudson & Wali Jones were dropping lots of them in the 60s - but he sure did perfect it. His fadeaway was money

Coaches at all levels teach the Kiki jab step & you see it everywhere today.
This is real primitive compared to Kiki but it's the idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FffYX2sPaPc


Here's a little clip of Kiki's fadeaway exactly copied by Carmelo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0CFX8p7VM

[bizil]

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe he was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.


McHale was a PF not SF. I was talking about my view on SF's in that post. In terms of PF, McHale is a top 6-7 GOAT PF of all time. McHale gets mad props from me always!

[JellyBean]

Overrated? :confusedshrug: If anything, Big Game James was underrated. I mean from 1985-86 through 1991-92, his lowest PPG total was 19.4 and his highest was 21.4. He was a very efficient scorer, solid defender, and an underrated passer. I don't see how he could be overrated.

[bizil]

I think Worthy is underrated for his ablity to be an alpha dog scorer. It was clear to me Worthy was on that level at his best. He was on a team though that had guys like Magic, Kareem, McAdoo, Wilkes, Scott, etc. at different times. But as the years went on, James got the Finals MVP and led the Lakers in scoring for a season. The thing is when u got Magic, Kareem,and Worthy as your top three options, u have three alpha dog type guys. I would say Kareem at his best would be the number one option though. But an alpha dog in an alpha dog, and the Lakers had the fortune to have three.

But I feel Worthy is also overrated at times in terms of his career to other premier SF's. Team accolades definitely add to a player's legacy and rightfully so. But in my book, Nique and Bernard King are better players than Worthy. For Worthy to get on the 50 greatest list, but not have Nique is fishy to me. It would be the equivalent damn near of having McHale on the list but not having Malone or Barkley due to rings.

Not saying Worthy doesn't deserve 50 greatest, but to say he's a better player than Nique or King simply due to rings doesn't add up. This is the view of many when comparing Worthy to Nique and a Bernard King. So in that sense Worthy is overrated at times. The glow of Showtime definitely made him even more formidable when looking at his legacy. I actually blame the media and many of the former players (in particular the guys from the 50's and 60's) for this instead of many knowledgable fans like us on here. The 50 greatest and lists like that are media and former player driven.

What's puzzling to me about Nique is he was a household name and made the L a lot of money. And on top of it, he was one of the most prolific scorers of all time. For him not to make the Dream Team, 50 greatest, or first ballot HOFer makes him the most underrated superstar (for a guy who was a superstar on the court in terms of numbers and a superstar in terms of ratings, ticket sales, etc.) possibly ever.

[jlauber]

That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

[La Frescobaldi]

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

Chamberlain was the ultimate scorer. Easily.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain was the ultimate scorer. Easily.

I guess I should have worded it along the lines that Dantley was AMONG the ULTIMATE scorers. 30 ppg on .560+ FG% and .850 from the line.

Chamberlain, MJ, Kareem, and McAdoo were also be in the category of explosive, efficient scorers, and UNSTOPPABLE scorers.

[monkeypox]

The only player to ever win an MVP with Michael Jordan as a teammate!

[jlauber]

Like I said, I can't claim to be an expert on Dantley's game with Utah, but are you sure he was past his prime when he went to Detroit?

You just mentioned his scoring going down, but isn't that to be expected when going to a better team? Particularly a team like Detroit with so many weapons?

1985-1986 w/ Utah- 29.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3 TO, 56.3 FG%, 62.9 TS%, 36.1 mpg (29 years old)
1986-1987 w/ Detroit- 21.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2 apg, 2.2 TO, 53.4 FG%, 61.4 TS%, 33.8 mpg (30 years old)

He played less minutes with Detroit and dropped from 19.1 FGA to 13.9 FGA.

In '88, Detroit was 54-28 overall, 44-25 with Dantley and 13-6 when Dantley came off the bench. A 10-3 record without him is pretty damn good.

Detroit was 30-12 with Dantley in '89, but 30-6 with Mark Aguirre and 28-4 with Aguirre starting.

Dallas was also better with Dantley than Aguirre. The Mavs went 25-19 with Aguirre and 11-20 with Dantley, 9-16 when Dantley started.

And speaking of Dantley's scoring falling off when he went to Detroit, well Mark Aguirre was 29 in 1989. And he went from 21.7 ppg with Dallas in 34.8 mpg to 15.5 ppg in 29.7 mpg with Detroit.

So while I'm not making a statement one way or the other, there is evidence to suggest that Dantley's impact wasn't half as big as the stats suggest. The knock on him from everything I've heard was that he was a black hole who held the ball for an extremely long time to get his shot. I thought he was impressive with Detroit, but I have my doubts that a contending team was ever going to have him averaging 30.

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.

I really can't argue with any of the above except to say that a prime Dantley was mired on poor teams. And, as I mentioned in a post above, his overall impact may have not been as much as a 30 ppg .560 shooter should have been,...perhaps because of poor defense and rebounding...but I still say that he was among the most unstoppable offensive players of all-time. It was truly remarkable that a 6-5 (or less) player, at around 210 lbs, and with really no range over 15 ft, could so thoroughly dominate opposing defenders and defenses. 30 ppg, .560 FG%, .850 FT%...just amazing.

[oolalaa]

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

1. His '88 piston team? HIS 88' PISTON TEAM?? you don't really mean that do you? You know Isiah was the leader and best player of those mid to late 80s pistons teams right? RIGHT??

2. Not sure he played on crappy teams throughout his career. He played with Kareem, Jamaal Wilkes and Norm Nixon in L.A. He played with a prime Darell Griffith (good SG before his injuries), Rickey Green (decent point guard), John Drew (when he wasn't injured), Thurl Bailey (ok centre), a young Stockton and a rookie Karl Malone in Utah. He played with Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman in Detroit. He played with Mark Aguirre in Dallas.

He obviously had some very average teammates in his prime but he clearly had no ability to raise his their level of play either. He wasn't a leader and ive heard that he was a bit of an arsehole to boot (supposedly the reason he left Detroit).

3. He was one of the most unstoppable scorers of all time. A distinction should be made between offense and scoring.

4. If you do think that Dantley was one of the greatest offensive players of all time then surely you must think very highly of Alex English and Bernard king as well...

Englishs best 4 scoring seasons were - 28.4 ppg on 52%, 27.9 ppg on 52%, 29.8 ppg on 50% and 28.6 ppg on 50%. Impressive stuff right?

Kings 2 best seasons before his injury were - 26.3 ppg on 57% and 32.9 ppg on 53%. :eek: holy moly!

5. His overall team impact was beyond questionable. His scoring had almost no impact on his teams results. Like i said - HE WAS A PRODUCT OF HIS ERA. Teams were scoring a tonne of points in the early 80s.

But back to the topic? Was he better than Worthy?

[oolalaa]

I guess I should have worded it along the lines that Dantley was AMONG the ULTIMATE scorers. 30 ppg on .560+ FG% and .850 from the line.

Chamberlain, MJ, Kareem, and McAdoo were also be in the category of explosive, efficient scorers, and UNSTOPPABLE scorers.

Don't forget George Gervin, Bernard King & Shaq :D

[Kovach]

Anybody have Worthy's numbers from 1986-1991 in the games Magic didn't play in?
22.8 ppg on 57.3 fg%, not taking into account the final game of the 86 season when the team was resting for the playoffs (in which he dropped 15 points in 20 minutes) and his 35 point Nov 89 game against Phoenix in which Magic got ejected after 3 minutes into the game for brawling with KJ.

Also, "prime" (89-91) Worthy without Magic is at about 29 ppg.

[Kovach]

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.
Kind of how you are ignoring that he was plagued by injuries in 92 and also the psychological impact that Magic's sudden, pre-early retirement and what caused it might have had on him and his game, right?

[Kovach]

I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.
OR, he puts similar numbers to Worthy due to playing next to 3 20 ppg guys, in addition to not being as good defensively and possibly causing more damage then good to the Showtime team play due to his ego?

[The Iron Fist]

Wade is more overrated than Worthy will ever be.

[Mr.JB]

How is Big Game James overrated in the first place?

Nobody calls him the GOAT forward. Nobody says he is better then such and such.

Really nobody says anything except he was a great player who won rings with Magic.

I see no reason for this thread.

:applause:

[Xiao Yao You]

He played with a prime Darell Griffith (good SG before his injuries)

He had a foot injury. What derailed him was a coach that put a white stiff in the line-up ahead of him because he held out one year not the injury.


Rickey Green (decent point guard)

He was one of the best pg in the league for a few seasons.


John Drew (when he wasn't injured)

Drew was with them very briefly and he lit it up too! The benefits of coke on display. Don't remember injury just a lifetime ban.


Thurl Bailey (ok centre)

SF. Very good 6th man.


He played with Mark Aguirre in Dallas

Was traded for Aquirre.

[97 bulls]

Kind of how you are ignoring that he was plagued by injuries in 92 and also the psychological impact that Magic's sudden, pre-early retirement and what caused it might have had on him and his game, right?
Lol pshycological impact? James worthy is a grown ass man. That was a 10 year vet when magic anouned his retirement.

And I acknowledged worthys injuries. But the lakers were 28-26 with him in the lineup. Now you caan excuse him for having nagging injuries but then that's literrally 90% of the players in the nba. Especially after 8-9 seasons. Id say most players have nagging injuries. He still played an avg of 37 minutes if I remember correct in 92.

Psyschologial impact lol

[Kovach]

Lol pshycological impact? James worthy is a grown ass man. That was a 10 year vet when magic anouned his retirement.

Yes and? That wouldn't make him immune to a possible and, considering the circumstances, very probable loss of motivation.


And I acknowledged worthys injuries. But the lakers were 28-26 with him in the lineup. Now you caan excuse him for having nagging injuries but then that's literrally 90% of the players in the nba. Especially after 8-9 seasons. Id say most players have nagging injuries. He still played an avg of 37 minutes if I remember correct in 92.

Worthy was not the same player in 92 as he was in the seasons prior by any stretch of imagination, one only really needs a functional set of eyes (focused on the games instead of b-r.com) to be able to comprehend that. Of course, you are a guy who takes pleasure in using past-prime, injury-ridden seasons players had against them (unless of course the player in question happens to be Pippen) so it doesn't really matter to you. Heck, you were even using the 93/94 season when he was barely walking to make some silly, meaningless points against him.

[D.J.]

Overrated? He's underrated if anything. 20 PPG, above average defensively, consistent and reliable, clutch, and a good hustle guy. But, playing with Magic and Kareem will do that. For someone that was putting up 20/6/3 regularly, he sure didn't get much recognition.

[KevinNYC]

That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.

Dantley was the Pistons top scorer when the Pistons traded him for Aguirre. Aguirre did not score as much as Dantley was scoring, but you know what happened? The Pistons offense improved and they scored more points per game. They went 31-6 after the trade. (http://www.bizofbasketball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=536:adrian-dantley-mystery-man&catid=42:articles-a-opinion&Itemid=57) Their winning percentage before the trade was .711, after the trade it was .838

Daly wanted Dantley out of there because he was choking the flow of the offense, by dribbling and dribbling and slowly trying to back his man down. When he passed the ball it was often with just a few seconds in the shot clock. There is a reason the Pistons won the title the year they traded Dantley. Aguirre could move the ball.


Aguirre was a little bigger than Dantley but--more importantly--he could play in the post with his back to the basket and either score or else draw a double team and make the correct pass leading either to an open shot or else one more ball reversal that resulted in an open shot on the weak side (Aguirre delivered a lot of what would now be termed "hockey assists").

[97 bulls]

Yes and? That wouldn't make him immune to a possible and, considering the circumstances, very probable loss of motivation.

Worthy was not the same player in 92 as he was in the seasons prior by any stretch of imagination, one only really needs a functional set of eyes (focused on the games instead of b-r.com) to be able to comprehend that. Of course, you are a guy who takes pleasure in using past-prime, injury-ridden seasons players had against them (unless of course the player in question happens to be Pippen) so it doesn't really matter to you. Heck, you were even using the 93/94 season when he was barely walking to make some silly, meaningless points against him.
Unless you can provide a statement of him saying magics retirement hurt him emotionally to the point that he did his job half-assed I'm calling BS. I do agree it effected him due to him not being the recipient of about 3-4 layups per game thanx to magic.

The difference between worthy and pippen is that pippen was 34-35 years old. Worthy was 30.

To be honest, you need to stop arguing for worthy. If I didn't know any better, id be led to believe worthy was a paraplegic and emotionally weak, player incapable of functioning without magic johnson, based on your view on what james worthy was at 30 years old.

[eliteballer]

97 shut your adolescent mouth. Worthy went in deep playoff runs every year of his career and physically broke down at the end of his career, and even on a bum leg in the 91 Finals was giving it to Pippen in the post on the regular.

[jlauber]

Dantley was the Pistons top scorer when the Pistons traded him for Aguirre. Aguirre did not score as much as Dantley was scoring, but you know what happened? The Pistons offense improved and they scored more points per game. They went 31-6 after the trade. (http://www.bizofbasketball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=536:adrian-dantley-mystery-man&catid=42:articles-a-opinion&Itemid=57) Their winning percentage before the trade was .711, after the trade it was .838

Daly wanted Dantley out of there because he was choking the flow of the offense, by dribbling and dribbling and slowly trying to back his man down. When he passed the ball it was often with just a few seconds in the shot clock. There is a reason the Pistons won the title the year they traded Dantley. Aguirre could move the ball.

You couldn't argue with the results of that Dantley trade, however, there are those Piston fans who believed that Detroit would have won a title with Dantley instead of Aguirre. In fact, they claim that Thomas was behind the trade, and that he was freezing Dantley out of the offense. And there were Detroit players that were not happy with that trade, too. As for Aguirre, his Dallas teammates would have paid to ship him out. He was never the player that Dantley was, and his contributions to the Pistons was considerably less.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/12/looking-back-would-the-detroit-pistons-have-still-won-a-nba-title-if-they-didnt-trade-adrian-dantley-for-mark-aguirre/

[QUOTE]Dantley was a huge part of the Pistons becoming a title contender in the 1980s. In Detroit

[La Frescobaldi]

10-24-2011, 05:38 AM * #3
Kobe 4 The Win
Legendary NBA Expert
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 480

Re: Classic Confrontations: James Worthy vs Dennis Rodman
In his last book Rodman said of Worthy....

"I'm one of the best defensive players of all time and I couldn't guard his ass."

"He would be coming off of a screen and I'd be trying to figure out whether he was going over the top or underneath. Next thing I knew, he was at the rim."

"There was nothing but Frustration with James Worthy. Clever, quick, a great player-he's one of the few guys who flat pissed me off. I want him on my team just so I don't have to guard him."
Last edited by Kobe 4 The Win : 10-24-2011 at 05:43 AM.
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[Force]

Worthy had the fastest first step in NBA HISTORY. Right now it's Melo but Worthy was clearly much quicker with his first step. Just beautiful to watch and he was excellent at finishing on the break. Super competitor and also great in big games, hence the nickname.

[Kovach]

I apologize for bumping an old thread but I have completely forgotten about it.


Unless you can provide a statement of him saying magics retirement hurt him emotionally to the point that he did his job half-assed I'm calling BS.

I don't need any, I drew my conclusion from the fact that he is a freakin human being. Perhaps you have forgotten what a major deal HIV was at the time.


I do agree it effected him due to him not being the recipient of about 3-4 layups per game thanx to magic.

If you truly believe healthy and motivated Worthy wouldn't be able to compensate for that you are either delusional or have never seen him play. You are aware we are talking about the guy who was the ultimate matchup nightmare, right? You are aware that NOBODY in the bloody league could guard him at the time, right? Teams used to throw every single SF and PF on their roster at him, and he would still score close to 20, by half-time. Countless of times he would score 12-15 in the first quarter alone and then simply pass the ball to his teammates for remainder of the game. He could score at will, literally, and no defender could ever do anything about it. The guy used to make a mockery out of the infamous Bad Boys defense almost every single time they matched up for crying out loud. The notion that a healthy Worthy wouldn't be at least a 25ppg player on a less talented team is just absurd.



The difference between worthy and pippen is that pippen was 34-35 years old. Worthy was 30.

When your knees give up they give up, who cares if it happens by the age of 30 or 4-5 years later? Doesn't make him any less of a player. By the age of 30 he did more than enough to warrant himself a place among the 50 greatest.

To those so certain Nique was a superior player, have you ever seen a game between those 2? Worthy actually was able to contain Nique to some extent, on the other hand Nique attempting to guard Worthy was, to put it lightly, comical. Same goes for English and Aguirre.

As for his low ppg, why does everyone seem to forget that besides Magic and Kareem, Worthy had to "compete" for points with yet another 20 ppg player on that team? He was even the teams top scorer in one of Worthy's prime years if I'm not mistaken. He used to play a shooting guard, look him up.

As for his low rpg, kind of hard to grab boards when you job is to be on the opponents half court the moment your team gets into possession, don't you think?

To the thread starter, he is anything but overrated. He wasn't even the 3rd option for most of his career. He was the 1st-2nd option on the repeat team and was clearly the best player on the team during the '89 playoffs, and if the Lakers managed to win that year it is very likely you'd be looking at the guy with 2 consecutive final MVP's.

[Xiao Yao You]

yes he is

[BoutPractice]

No. Worthy is one of the typical cases of what you might call the overly competent sidekick.
(Worthy is the rare member of that category to be primarily a scorer. The category would also include guys like Pippen and Gasol, truly elite basketball players who had everything to be a dominant force on their own but spent the better part of their career as a second or third option for one reason or another. )

Worthy's pure basketball skill is obvious from watching him play, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he's held in such high regard by those who played in his era.

I actually think he should be talked about more.
In the current era, teams tend to draft a lot of 6-8, 6-9ish SF/PF "tweeners". Many of them, despite their talent and athleticism, have a tough time figuring out how best to put their abilities to use on the court.
They should study James Worthy - he plays exactly the way they should. His moves, the way he positions himself on the court, everything.

[miles berg]

He wasnt better than Aguirre or Nique but he was better than most of the others you listed.

[Baby Arm Johnso]

question for the op; how old are you? did you ever watch James in person?

Worthy's nickname was "Big Game James" for a legitimate reason. I will grant you that after Magic retired Worthy didn't do much but that shouldn't defer from what he did during the showtime era.

[DixieNourmous]

Great Video of Worthy and the showtime Lakers. Watch Magic in his prime in this. :bowdown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFtAMOyaql0

Worthy kinda reminds me of Clyde Drexler with the one handed swoop style slams.

Worthy was a fast wing and great finisher. Here is a better vid of him scoring 7 straight in the closing minutes of game 7 against the Pistons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVlkghTbuYY&feature=related

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/clap%20clap%20clap/grand/applause_clap_1878.gif


Compare James Worthy to Lebron James... Worthy has the speed and footwork, James has the .........

[DixieNourmous]

He wasnt better than Aguirre or Nique but he was better than most of the others you listed.

No, Worthy was better, no doubt about it. His legacy is somewhat blurred because of playing on a team with Magic, Kareem, ect... but he deserves more respect than that.

[JellyBean]

I am sorry. But James Worthy was not overrated.

[fsvr54]

No, Worthy was better, no doubt about it. His legacy is somewhat blurred because of playing on a team with Magic, Kareem, ect... but he deserves more respect than that.


He's better than Aguirre, but LOL, no way is he better than 'Nique.

[Niquesports]

He's better than Aguirre, but LOL, no way is he better than 'Nique.
The only think a person can say that Nique,King,Alex,Mark were better at was scoring. Ok lets look at it. James played on a team with the GOAT PG and possibly the GOAT C. Magic made sure everyone got the ball in the right place.You must understand chemistry and how it relates to basketball. Worthy game was able to adapt to what the lakers needed. They needed him to score he score they need him to be a 3rd 4 th option thats what he did, They needed him to defend Bird,Mchale thats what he did. I know College is different from the pro's. But if you want some sort of measuring stick He was the beast in college. So lets get it straight he wasn't some coatail riding player. In college he was better than all the other SF you guys are naming.
I Close I never heard anyone say BIG GAME NIQUE<BIG GAME ALEX, IT's BIG GAME JAMES because in the big games James steped up.

[Kovach]

He's better than Aguirre, but LOL, no way is he better than 'Nique.
He used to burn Nique in their head to head matchups so bad it was hilarious to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoTKCqDilHo

And there were many more examples.

[Kovach]

James played on a team with the GOAT PG and possibly the GOAT C.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about a 20 ppg SG who was the teams top scorer in one of their championship seasons?

[Niquesports]

Why does everyone keep forgetting about a 20 ppg SG who was the teams top scorer in one of their championship seasons?


So true. People underrate James because he didn't have the numbers.But on that team. Magic kept everyone in the game.Are you real Mark better than James ,Kovach they also don't know that team had 7 players in double digt scoring and Cooper was getting 9ppg.

[IGotACoolStory]

Someone didn't watch much of Worthy if your argument basis is on stats.

I think he's underrated, because how many players with #1 talent would be willing to spend most of their career as a #2 or #3, but could step up to the plate and play like the elite option whenever his team needed? Talk about the perfect "role player".

[magnax1]

He is quite over rated, but not in an extremely straight forward way. He was more then capable of putting up 23-25 ppg if given a first option role (which isn't particularly amazing and shouldn't be compared to the better SFs of that decade) but he was also extremely fortunate that he played with Magic so that he could put up efficient numbers that I'm not really certain he's capable of under most circumstances.
Saying he's better then a Dantley or Wilkins is not fair at all. Alex English maybe, but anyone else is really pushing it.

[Niquesports]

He is quite over rated, but not in an extremely straight forward way. He was more then capable of putting up 23-25 ppg if given a first option role (which isn't particularly amazing and shouldn't be compared to the better SFs of that decade) but he was also extremely fortunate that he played with Magic so that he could put up efficient numbers that I'm not really certain he's capable of under most circumstances.
Saying he's better then a Dantley or Wilkins is not fair at all. Alex English maybe, but anyone else is really pushing it.

FIrst off neither Dantley or Wilkins could had adjusted to going from 1 option to 3 option from game to game and still be just as effective.

Second both needed the ball to score james could post, mid game, run the lane, and finish, can you picture Dantley trying to run the break and finish like Worthy ? It would be funny

Wilkins was a one dimentional scorer beat his man off the dribble. Worthy could beat his man ,post his man,out run his man .

Lastly when it comes to D its not even close James was much better than both

The more I look at it james might be a top 5 SF

[Big#50]

People rate him fairly. He was the best player on a college championship team. Won Finals MVP.
Bird
Lebron
Pippen
Are the only small forwards I can confidently say we're better.

[Niquesports]

People rate him fairly. He was the best player on a college championship team. Won Finals MVP.
Bird
Lebron
Pippen
Are the only small forwards I can confidently say we're better.


It's just too hard to compare him with these guys they were 1st and 2nd options on there teams . Sometimes James would be the 4th option. It wasnt because of lack of talent. It was just any given day another player would be the go to player on that laker team Magic just moved the ball around so much

[magnax1]

FIrst off neither Dantley or Wilkins could had adjusted to going from 1 option to 3 option from game to game and still be just as effective.

That's not a skill that is relevant in most situations. Most 25 ppg scorers are not (and really should not usually be) second or third options. All that really points out is how fortunate James Worthy was to be on such a stacked team.


Second both needed the ball to score james could post, mid game, run the lane, and finish, can you picture Dantley trying to run the break and finish like Worthy ? It would be funny
Worthy was the better scorer on the break, but otherwise Dantley was quite a bit better at most everything else. For the most part, it's the same with Wilkins.

[vert48]

Worthy's first step was ridiculous. He is underrated.

[Big#50]

It's just too hard to compare him with these guys they were 1st and 2nd options on there teams . Sometimes James would be the 4th option. It wasnt because of lack of talent. It was just any given day another player would be the go to player on that laker team Magic just moved the ball around so much
Worthy was a good passer from the post. These players were way better playmakers. Better defenders too. Has nothing to do with being a first option/second option. They made teammates better. Worthy had Magic. That will always be a knock on him. We will never know what he would do carrying a team on his shoulders.

[Kovach]

but he was also extremely fortunate that he played with Magic so that he could put up efficient numbers that I'm not really certain he's capable of under most circumstances.

Why? Nobody in the NBA could guard him, that is pretty much a well established fact.

[Niquesports]

That's not a skill that is relevant in most situations. Most 25 ppg scorers are not (and really should not usually be) second or third options. All that really points out is how fortunate James Worthy was to be on such a stacked team.


Worthy was the better scorer on the break, but otherwise Dantley was quite a bit better at most everything else. For the most part, it's the same with Wilkins.


It's not a skill to be a effective player which ever role you play ?? No wonder we never agree. That why Isiah ran Dantley out of Detroit he was messing up there team chemistry pounding the ball trying to back his man in.Wilkins was a scorer and a one demintional one at that. He could only beat his man off the dribble. Had no real mid game no post game, wasn't really a good off ball scorer . We all know Dantley was horrible as a off ball scorer. No body on the lakers avg. 25 ppg. One year they had 11 players avg double digets and cooper avg 9 ppg.I wonder why when the Lakers wanted Magic they trade Dantley instead of Jammal Wilks? This is getting funny

[wakencdukest]

Why? Nobody in the NBA could guard him, that is pretty much a well established fact.


Exactly. Worthy was a matchup nightmare, he played bigger than any small forward in the league, and was quicker than any power forward in the league. Ask Rodman how hard he was to guard. No way he was overrated. I don't remember many power forwards in the league that could really guard him. He was fortunate to be on a stacked team, but that doesn't mean he was not a damn beast. I'd take him over Dantley, King, English, Wilkins any day of the week.

[bizil]

I don't think James in overrated at all. He just happened to be on the arguably the most stacked offensive juggernaut of all time. Worthy was clearly a Batman level scorer who had the kind of mindset. It's just a shame his health problems began to catch up with him when it was time for him to assume that mantle.

[97 bulls]

I apologize for bumping an old thread but I have completely forgotten about it.


I don't need any, I drew my conclusion from the fact that he is a freakin human being. Perhaps you have forgotten what a major deal HIV was at the time.

If you truly believe healthy and motivated Worthy wouldn't be able to compensate for that you are either delusional or have never seen him play. You are aware we are talking about the guy who was the ultimate matchup nightmare, right? You are aware that NOBODY in the bloody league could guard him at the time, right? Teams used to throw every single SF and PF on their roster at him, and he would still score close to 20, by half-time. Countless of times he would score 12-15 in the first quarter alone and then simply pass the ball to his teammates for remainder of the game. He could score at will, literally, and no defender could ever do anything about it. The guy used to make a mockery out of the infamous Bad Boys defense almost every single time they matched up for crying out loud. The notion that a healthy Worthy wouldn't be at least a 25ppg player on a less talented team is just absurd.


When your knees give up they give up, who cares if it happens by the age of 30 or 4-5 years later? Doesn't make him any less of a player. By the age of 30 he did more than enough to warrant himself a place among the 50 greatest.

To those so certain Nique was a superior player, have you ever seen a game between those 2? Worthy actually was able to contain Nique to some extent, on the other hand Nique attempting to guard Worthy was, to put it lightly, comical. Same goes for English and Aguirre.

As for his low ppg, why does everyone seem to forget that besides Magic and Kareem, Worthy had to "compete" for points with yet another 20 ppg player on that team? He was even the teams top scorer in one of Worthy's prime years if I'm not mistaken. He used to play a shooting guard, look him up.

As for his low rpg, kind of hard to grab boards when your job is to be on the opponents half court the moment your team gets into possession, dont you think?

To the thread starter, he is anything but overrated. He wasn't even the 3rd option for most of his career. He was the 1st-2nd option on the repeat team and was clearly the best player on the team during the '89 playoffs, and if the Lakers managed to win that year it is very likely you'd be looking at the guy with 2 consecutive final MVP's.
I must say this is true. I cant penalize a player for playing his role to perfection. In another situation, Worthy is easily a 25/7 guy.

And while I dont think hes overrated, hes not underrated. You haave swayed me Kovach

[Kovach]

Exactly. Worthy was a matchup nightmare, he played bigger than any small forward in the league, and was quicker than any power forward in the league. Ask Rodman how hard he was to guard. No way he was overrated. I don't remember many power forwards in the league that could really guard him.
I remember the Suns trying with Chambers, Gilliam and Majerle...I remember the Mavs trying with Perkins, Aquirre and Schrempf...I remember the Sonics trying with McKey, Ellis and McDaniel...and I am talking about the first quarter alone. Was pretty comical to watch.

[Kovach]

I must say this is true. I cant penalize a player for playing his role to perfection. In another situation, Worthy is easily a 25/7 guy.

And while I dont think hes overrated, hes not underrated. You have swayed me Kovach
:cheers:

Here is a little treat for Worthy fans, 1st part of my little pet project: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWD7ptyKYc0

27 mins of James embarrassing his defenders. Currently working on a huge expansion of that video, should be finished within a couple of weeks I hope.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

:cheers:

Here is a little treat for Worthy fans, 1st part of my little pet project: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWD7ptyKYc0

27 mins of James embarrassing his defenders. Currently working on a huge expansion of that video, should be finished within a couple of weeks I hope.


Thanks for posting the evidence.

[Niquesports]

:cheers:

Here is a little treat for Worthy fans, 1st part of my little pet project: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWD7ptyKYc0
:cheers:
27 mins of James embarrassing his defenders. Currently working on a huge expansion of that video, should be finished within a couple of weeks I hope.

:cheers:

[aceman]

I don't think James in overrated at all. He just happened to be on the arguably the most stacked offensive juggernaut of all time. Worthy was clearly a Batman level scorer who had the kind of mindset. It's just a shame his health problems began to catch up with him when it was time for him to assume that mantle.

a batman but was he also an alpha dog??

[BoutPractice]

Great video.
Worthy just had a knack for scoring near the basket. He knows all the little tricks and executes them to perfection in a way that makes his scoring look effortless.

Once again, I can't stress how much SF/PF tweeners would gain by studying his game. Stop pounding the ball like a scoring guard and develop a post game...