Is Wade the 3rd best shooting guard of all time?

[Dwyane Rose]

I honestly can't think of anyone that could take that position other than Jerry West.

In my opinion it's:

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

Iverson was a point guard, like Derrick Rose is.

What will it take for him to surpass Jerry, Kobe and whoever else you think is above Wade? How many rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. will Wade need to be #1, # 2, #3 if you think West > Wade?

[EnoughSaid]

Eventhough I'm one of the biggest Wade fans, he's not over Jerry West yet. West and Kobe are interchangeable at that #2 spot, but when Kobe retires he'll probably have #2 locked down.

Another 2-3 elite seasons for Wade and maybe another 2 championships with elite playoff runs should seal #3 though.

:rockon:

[305Baller]

I honestly can't think of anyone that could take that position other than Jerry West.

In my opinion it's:

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

Iverson was a point guard, like Derrick Rose is.

What will it take for him to surpass Jerry, Kobe and whoever else you think is above Wade? How many rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. will Wade need to be #1, # 2, #3 if you think West > Wade?


What is the deal with Jerry West, this guy could not dribble left, he could not be that great. Why should he rank so high?

:violin:

Lets see here:

"His nicknames include "Mr. Clutch," for his ability to make a big play in a clutch situation, such as his famous buzzer-beating 60-foot shot that tied Game 3 of the 1970 NBA Finals against the New York Knicks"

He only tied the game, but a legendary shot I am sure.

"The Logo" in reference to his silhouette being incorporated into the NBA logo.


Logos should not have anything to do with it, does this suggest that because he is the logo he must linger around the 3-5 spot until the current nba logo is retired? (a sad day indeed if that ever happened)

"West holds the NBA record for the highest points per game average in a playoff series with 46.3"

ok, ok... good stuff...

what else ?

[INDI]

Wade is definitely #4. for some reason with as great as wade has been, I feel like he could've done more. No MVP's no scoring titles. He had the capabilities of a Jordan/Kobe but just never quite hit that level. Not far behind but not on their level.

[EnoughSaid]

Wade is definitely #4. for some reason with as great as wade has been, I feel like he could've done more. No MVP's no scoring titles. He had the capabilities of a Jordan/Kobe but just never quite hit that level. Not far behind but not on their level.

:facepalm You don't remember that 08-09 season?

[GOBB]

Iverson wasnt a PG. SG. :no:

[EnoughSaid]

Iverson wasnt a PG. SG. :no:

Still, Iverson is not above Wade. :no:

[GOBB]

Still, Iverson is not above Wade. :no:

Yes he is.

[Heavincent]

1.) Jordan
2.) Kobe

3.) West

Nope.

[PianoMan]

Yes he is.
Iverson used to be a Pg until he took an arrow to the knee

[305Baller]

Yes he is.

Only thing Iverson has on Wade was that he was a higher volume scorer (on lower fg%) which is less efficient but it did get Iverson to the finals with a supporting cast that was a Larry Brown basketball machine but less talented than 90% of finals teams.

[GOBB]

Only thing Iverson has on Wade was that he was a higher volume scorer (on lower fg%) which is less efficient but it did get Iverson to the finals with a supporting cast that was a Larry Brown basketball machine but less talented than 90% of finals teams.

Scoring is the only thing? Try passing too. One of the best passing SGs of all time. Maybe the best.

[Dwyane Rose]

Yes he is.

Debatable because Iverson has an MVP award.

But Wade has a FMVP and a ring. He'll probably win more by the time his career's over.

[NumberSix]

What is the deal with Jerry West, this guy could not dribble left, he could not be that great. Why should he rank so high?
When most people rank players like West, they rank them relative to their era. If someone wants to argue that Jerry West was better in his own era than Wade is in his respective era, then fine. They may have a point. But if they're trying to say that, all things being equal, Jerry West is pound for pound as good as Dwyane Wade or Kobe..... :roll:

[AngelEyes]

Wade is definitely #4. for some reason with as great as wade has been, I feel like he could've done more. No MVP's no scoring titles. He had the capabilities of a Jordan/Kobe but just never quite hit that level. Not far behind but not on their level.

I guess you forget 2009 when Wade led the league with a 30.2 points per game average.

[DStebb716]

AI is better than Wade but AI was a PG.

[GOBB]

Debatable because Iverson has an MVP award.

But Wade has a FMVP and a ring. He'll probably win more by the time his career's over.

Shaq, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he's the greatest of the universe :bowdown:

But Wade could end up passing Iverson when his career is over. He's on the track too. I wouldnt be mad. AI is my 2nd fav player of all time, and today Wade is my favorite. 2nd fav today is Derrick Rose. Seems i'm arguing which of my favorite players are better than the other. A win win situation if you ask me. And yes offtopic, Rose just might end his career as a better player than Iverson. Potential is there but for now Iverson is the man...for now. :pimp:

[AngelEyes]

AI is better than Wade but AI was a PG.

AI was never better than Wade. Wade was a much more complete and efficient basketball player.

[GOBB]

AI is better than Wade but AI was a PG.

Yeah, Eric Snow was our SG. :rolleyes:

[bizil]

Well peak value wise, Wade I feel is the third best SG of all time just behind MJ and Kobe. After that u have guys like West, T Mac, Gervin, Drexler, David Thompson, and Iverson. But in GOAT terms (team accolades, solo accolades, longevity being great, numbers) I would indeed have West and Wade battling for that spot. I feel Wade is getting to a point in his career where he can be argued number three. But i will still roll with West over Wade in GOAT terms. But Wade very, very, very soon will pass West for number three. I give Drexler mad props for being the third or fourth GOAT SG for many years until Wade got going. I do feel T Mac and Thompson could have really shook up the list if they stayed healthy for a longer period of time.

[97 bulls]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.

[AngelEyes]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.

Flavor of the month? Give me a damn break. How was last year a debacle? He had another terrific year. I don't know what you define as a great year, but he's had more than two. Just because the guy isn't scoring 32 points a game doesn't mean he isn't having a great season. Wade is a much more complete player than a lot of the other stars in the game, he plays more defense than Iverson ever did.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

1961-62 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1962-63 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1963-64 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1964-65 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1965-66 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1966-67 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1967-68 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1968-69 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)* 1st year of the award
1968-69 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)

vs

2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

:facepalm

[gengiskhan]

No.

Wade is the 2nd Best SG of all time after Jordan.

[jrong]

Yes he is.

Iverson? What a joke. You're comparing a career low 40s shooter against a career high 40s shooter. A chucker against a do-everything player. A player whose team's defense had to be built to hide his liabilities against an elite defender. One of the least efficient high-volume shooters ever vs. an efficiency machine. A player who was a coach's nightmare vs. a coach's dream.

Seriously, Gobb, I'm inclined to be charitable around the holidays, but Iverson over Wade is a pitiful joke.

[jrong]

Scoring is the only thing? Try passing too. One of the best passing SGs of all time. Maybe the best.

Is this a bizarro thread? Iverson a great passer? Please, he wouldn't any kind of top passing SGs. Hell, Kobe's a better passer than AI.

The best two are probably West and Wade (please wake up to the fact that Wade is a Bron-level passer) but I would put MJ (spectacularly underrated passer) up there too...

[AngelEyes]

Is this a bizarro thread? Iverson a great passer? Please, he wouldn't any kind of top passing SGs. Hell, Kobe's a better passer than AI.

The best two are probably West and Wade (please wake up to the fact that Wade is a Bron-level passer) but I would put MJ (spectacularly underrated passer) up there too...

Iverson was never a great passer, at best he was an above average passer. He played a lot of minutes and handled the ball the entire game and was thus able to accumulate a lot of assists. I agree with Jordan being a very underrated passer.

[Bird]

1961-62 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1962-63 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1963-64 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1964-65 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1965-66 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1966-67 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1967-68 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1968-69 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)* 1st year of the award
1968-69 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)

vs

2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

:facepalm

Now, now, don't you bring in your logic to this here conversation.

The sad thing is, West would probably be argued as one of the BEST defensive guards in league history had the NBA a) kept track of defensive stats sooner and b) created the All Defensive team sooner.

I honestly do not believe Wade is "close" to West for 3rd best SG of all time.

[pauk]

Jerry West... he is like top 10-15 of all time...

[redridinghood]

I still like TMac, hehehehe, but I'd go with Wade for 3rd only because he hasn't achieve as much/close to Kobe. Might change my mind if he does win a couple of rings though, despite the fact that Lebron might take away the attention of Wade winning his future rings

And about West, I'm just wondering how many of us here did witness him play? He may or may not be 3rd, but I didn't see him play before so no comment

[AngelEyes]

I still like TMac, hehehehe, but I'd go with Wade for 3rd only because he hasn't achieve as much/close to Kobe. Might change my mind if he does win a couple of rings though, despite the fact that Lebron might take away the attention of Wade winning his future rings

And about West, I'm just wondering how many of us here did witness him play? He may or may not be 3rd, but I didn't see him play before so no comment

I doubt anyone on this website actually saw any of Jerry West when he was playing, people are just using the statistics, video and accolades he collected and measuring it against other greats.

[redridinghood]

I doubt anyone on this website actually saw any of Jerry West when he was playing, people are just using the statistics, video and accolades he collected and measuring it against other greats.
How do you rep someone anyway? I seem to have limited access, oh well.

Stats, videos and accolades are good references to how good he is, but only to a certain extent, I would very much prefer to only judge if I see him play. Who is to say Drexler is any worse than Jerry West, I have never seen both, so I shall keep it to myself. And not forgetting, DIFFERENT ERA DIFFERENT RULES DIFFERENT MENTALITY DIFFERENT TRAINING METHODS do play huge roles in this as well

[AngelEyes]

How do you rep someone anyway? I seem to have limited access, oh well.

Stats, videos and accolades are good references to how good he is, but only to a certain extent, I would very much prefer to only judge if I see him play. Who is to say Drexler is any worse than Jerry West, I have never seen both, so I shall keep it to myself. And not forgetting, DIFFERENT ERA DIFFERENT RULES DIFFERENT MENTALITY DIFFERENT TRAINING METHODS do play huge roles in this as well

I agree that it's only effective to a certain extent but when comparing eras this is all we have. West was one of the best of his era and Wade is one of the best of his, therefore if we are to decide who is superior we must use whatever evidence we have available.

[redridinghood]

I agree that it's only effective to a certain extent but when comparing eras this is all we have. West was one of the best of his era and Wade is one of the best of his, therefore if we are to decide who is superior we must use whatever evidence we have available.
+1

To each own buddy, :) You do have your own point and I respect that. :)

[Jacks3]

Wade will never surpass Kobe or West.

[bwink23]

Scoring is the only thing? Try passing too. One of the best passing SGs of all time. Maybe the best.


:facepalm Oscar Robertson

[97 bulls]

Flavor of the month? Give me a damn break. How was last year a debacle? He had another terrific year. I don't know what you define as a great year, but he's had more than two. Just because the guy isn't scoring 32 points a game doesn't mean he isn't having a great season. Wade is a much more complete player than a lot of the other stars in the game, he plays more defense than Iverson ever did.
He's a great player. But top 3? I just think he has a ways to go. At one time I believe he was on pace and has the talent to be top 3. But he hasn't done it yet.

[Sarcastic]

Wade and West are interchangeable at 3 and 4.

[ursamajor]

I honestly can't think of anyone that could take that position other than Jerry West.

In my opinion it's:

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

Iverson was a point guard, like Derrick Rose is.

What will it take for him to surpass Jerry, Kobe and whoever else you think is above Wade? How many rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. will Wade need to be #1, # 2, #3 if you think West > Wade? How is Dr J not on that list?

[D-Wade316]

4th as of now. West and Kobe are interchangeable at #2. If he keeps on piling up rings, accolades, and legendary playoff performances, then he'll end up 2nd.

[Sarcastic]

How is Dr J not on that list?

He's usually considered a SF.

[D-Wade316]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.
:facepalm Wade was injured for only 2 seasons, 06-07 and 07-08. He has been healthy for the rest of his career. And I don't need accolades to determine his dominance and legacy. I guess you missed out his performances against the 04 Pacers, 05 Wizards, 06 Pistons, 06 Mavs, 10 Boston, 11 Boston, and 11 Mavs.

[DMAVS41]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.

Probably your worst post ever.

Flavor of the month? Wade has now played 8 years:

Here are his career numbers:

25/6/5 57% TS regular season
26/6/6 57% TS playoffs

He's led a team to the title and now has 2 great finals performances. He's accomplished more in his 8 years (with 2 seasons gone to injuries) than most hall of famers do in their entire careers.

Again...flavor of the month? He's Lebron/Bosh not choking their asses off from being universally considered a top 15 player of all time.

What a ****ing awful post.

[D-Wade316]

Probably your worst post ever.

Flavor of the month? Wade has now played 8 years:

Here are his career numbers:

25/6/5 57% TS regular season
26/6/6 57% TS playoffs

He's led a team to the title and now has 2 great finals performances. He's accomplished more in his 8 years (with 2 seasons gone to injuries) than most hall of famers do in their entire careers.

Again...flavor of the month? He's Lebron/Bosh not choking their asses off from being universally considered a top 15 player of all time.

What a ****ing awful post.
Ether

[Legends66NBA7]

He's Lebron/Bosh not choking their asses off from being universally considered a top 15 player of all time.

Say the Heat win, who's in that Top 15? Just curious.

And where would Wade be amongst them? Where would LeBron be?

[D-Wade316]

Say the Heat win, who's in that Top 15? Just curious.

And where would Wade be amongst them? Where would LeBron be?
If he won his 2nd FMVP, then he's undoubtedbly top-15 material. But most would prefer the accolade itself rather than the performance(11 Finals), so Wade isn't getting fair treatment.

[Sarcastic]

Wade ain't top 15 yet.

If he's top 15, then Lebron is top 5.

[D-Wade316]

Wade ain't top 15 yet.

If he's top 15, then Lebron is top 5.
There's no significant gap between Lebron and Wade's career. Lebron and Wade are the closest best players ever, since Wilt and Russell.

[Legends66NBA7]

Wade ain't top 15 yet.

If he's top 15, then Lebron is top 5.

No, I was saying IF Miami won the chip last year, where does DMAVS have Wade in the Top 15 and where is LeBron exactly?

Also, who else is in that Top 15? Was just curious about that list DMAVS had...

[Sarcastic]

There's no significant gap between Lebron and Wade's career. Lebron and Wade are the closest best players ever, since Wilt and Russell.

Lebron is clearly ahead of Wade. They are close, but not that close.

[Legends66NBA7]

Magic and Bird were much closer to Wilt and Russell (as far as their legacies go).

[D-Wade316]

Lebron is clearly ahead of Wade. They are close, but not that close.
Based on what? The accolades doesn't speak for themselves. 2 MVPs. How about a FMVP with one of the greatest Finals performance? How about the playoff performances that Lebron could only dream of? And of the All-NBA and All-Defensive teams that Wade was robbed off?

[Sarcastic]

Based on what? The accolades doesn't speak for themselves. 2 MVPs. How about a FMVP with one of the greatest Finals performance? How about the playoff performances that Lebron could only dream of? And of the All-NBA and All-Defensive teams that Wade was robbed off?

Lebron carried scrubs to 60 wins twice. Honestly, he should have about 3 or 4 MVPs by now.

Don't get me wrong. Dwyane Wade is a great player. But Lebron is on a different level. He has been the best player in the league for quite some time.

I'm no Lebron stan either. I hate him as a person, but respect him as the best in the game.

[I.R.Beast]

Lebron is clearly ahead of Wade. They are close, but not that close.
please explain how......they have the same amount of trips t the finals...the same amount of trips to the ECF , LeBron has no rings Wade has 1 with a Finals MVP, LeBron has 2 MVPs of the regular season(which is an award that goes to the player on the team with the best record( or top 3 record in all cases)...... So please explain the gap between wade and lebron....It's plain and simple an imaginary gap, create by media bias. Wade is obviously the more accomplished of the 2 given the fact that he won it all the the best player on his team in Godly fashion and probably would have 2 already if not for his injury in 05 in the ECF.

[Sarcastic]

please explain how......they have the same amount of trips t the finals...the same amount of trips to the ECF , LeBron has no rings Wade has 1 with a Finals MVP wade has 2 MVPs of the regular season(which is an award that goes to the player on the team with the best record( or top 3 record in all cases)...... So please explain the gap between wade and lebron....It's plain and simple an imaginary gap, create by media bias. Wade is obviously the more accomplished of the 2 given the fact that he won it all the the best player on his team in Godly fashion and probably would have 2 already if not for his injury in 05 in the ECF.

Bolded are not reasons to rank 1 player ahead of another.

Watch them play. Lebron is on a different level of most people who have played in the NBA.

There's a reason why Lebron's "Decision" was watched by everyone, and Wade announced that he is staying in Miami was televised with Bosh on the screen as well.

[I.R.Beast]

Lebron carried scrubs to 60 wins twice. Honestly, he should have about 3 or 4 MVPs by now.

Don't get me wrong. Dwyane Wade is a great player. But Lebron is on a different level. He has been the best player in the league for quite some time.

I'm no Lebron stan either. I hate him as a person, but respect him as the best in the game.
those scrubs, were a top defensive team and one of the top teams in the league in 3pt shooting. I guess the 18 points james was getting from Mo williams doesnt count..... My bad they only became scrubs in the playoffs right when the excuse was convenient after james failed in the playoffs.

[Hank]

Dwyane Wade is the 2nd best all-around SG in NBA history, he's only behind the GOAT Jordan.

[I.R.Beast]

Bolded are not reasons to rank 1 player ahead of another.

Watch them play. Lebron is on a different level of most people who have played in the NBA.

There's a reason why Lebron's "Decision" was watched by everyone, and Wade announced that he is staying in Miami was televised with Bosh on the screen as well.


Another level?....really.... So explain James only beating 1 team in the playoffs with a record above .500 prior to becoming wade's sidekick?...sheer brilliance!!

[D-Wade316]

Lebron carried scrubs to 60 wins twice. Honestly, he should have about 3 or 4 MVPs by now.

Don't get me wrong. Dwyane Wade is a great player. But Lebron is on a different level. He has been the best player in the league for quite some time.

I'm no Lebron stan either. I hate him as a person, but respect him as the best in the game.
Team wins are circumstantial. A player's dominance can only go so far. Wade has only been surrounded twice in his career with championship caliber teams. Wade won 1 going against teams they lost over the course of the regular season - Nets, Pistons, and Mavs.

[Sarcastic]

those scrubs, were a top defensive team and one of the top teams in the league in 3pt shooting. I guess the 18 points james was getting from Mo williams doesnt count..... My bad they only became scrubs in the playoffs right when the excuse was convenient after james failed in the playoffs.

What did they do when he left?

Mo Williams as the #2 guy is a joke. Wade had Shaq who was still in his prime when he won his ring. Give Lebron the same team that Wade had, and he would have won too.

[D-Wade316]

Bolded are not reasons to rank 1 player ahead of another.

Watch them play. Lebron is on a different level of most people who have played in the NBA.

There's a reason why Lebron's "Decision" was watched by everyone, and Wade announced that he is staying in Miami was televised with Bosh on the screen as well.
He should bring it in the Playoffs, most especially the Finals.

[Sarcastic]

Another level?....really.... So explain James only beating 1 team in the playoffs with a record above .500 prior to becoming wade's sidekick?...sheer brilliance!!

Why would you use team accomplishments as a measure for individual success?

[Sarcastic]

He should bring it in the Playoffs, most especially the Finals.

He should. You are right. Just because he didn't last year, does not mean he isn't the best player on the planet.

[D-Wade316]

He should. You are right. Just because he didn't last year, does not mean he isn't the best player on the planet.
But not by much. That's all I'm saying.

If Lebron is ranked 17th, then Wade should be ranked 18th. Just like how Wilt and Russell can't be separated. Their legacies are intertwined.

[Sarcastic]

But not by much. That's all I'm saying.

If Lebron is ranked 17th, then Wade should be ranked 18th. Just like how Wilt and Russell can't be separated. Their legacies are intertwined.

I think they will both finish in the top 20, easily.

Here's the difference. Lebron has the chance to finish top 5. Wade doesn't.

[catquickspider]

He will probably be third if he ever wins a ring without the refs.

[D-Wade316]

I think they will both finish in the top 20, easily.

Here's the difference. Lebron has the chance to finish top 5. Wade doesn't.
Only time will tell.

[I.R.Beast]

Why would you use team accomplishments as a measure for individual success?

season MVP is also a team accomplishment u moron.... if your team doesn't do what they need to do to win games then you will not get the MVP.....wow, such idiocy on this Board. Individual accolades are ALL OFFENSIVE/DEFENSIVE TEAMS and scoring titles, things that only the INDIVIDUAL has control over, not an MVP that is heavily influenced by the success of the TEAM.

Dwyane Wade was phenomenal in the title run a level of phenomenal Lebron James couldnt even fathom and Wade almost single handedly beat the MAVS that is why i use it. So we should exempt Wade contributions to team success because it doesnt favor lebron?

[Sarcastic]

season MVP is also a team accomplishment u moron.... if your team doesn't do what they need to do to win games then you will not get the MVP.....wow, such idiocy on this Board. Individual accolades are ALL OFFENSIVE/DEFENSIVE TEAMS and scoring titles, things that only the INDIVIDUAL has control over, not an MVP that is heavily influenced by the success of the TEAM.

Dwyane Wade was phenomenal in the title run a level of phenomenal Lebron James couldnt even fathom and Wade almost single handedly beat the MAVS that is why i use it. So we should exempt Wade contributions to team success because it doesnt favor lebron?

Season MVP is the highest individual honor a player can get. Every seasonal MVP has/will make the Hall of Fame. There are players who have won FMVP that will never make the HOF.

[I.R.Beast]

[B]It should be noted that the

[Sarcastic]

[QUOTE=I.R.Beast][B]It should be noted that the

[I.R.Beast]

Season MVP is the highest individual honor a player can get. Every seasonal MVP has/will make the Hall of Fame. There are players who have won FMVP that will never make the HOF.

the MVP is given to 1 person, but its unachievable without team success therefore it's a team accomplishment in its own right. When you're the caliber of player that wade is and has been. Only a fool would rather have a MVP over an FMVP. Obviously there are player that arent great that got an FMVP, but they were atleast the best player on the court when it mattered most, Wade was the best player that year in the entire playoffs and in the Finals, his FMVP is not just another FMVP award and you know it.

[Legends66NBA7]

It should be noted that the “18 points by Mo Williams“ is hardly great for a second option. That teams surronding players underplayed as a unit in those two 60+ win seasons, playoff runs, espically Williams:

That makes Pau Gasol a scrub then?....that Makes Kevin Garnet a scrub?... That Makes Pippen a scrub?....That Makes Ginobli a scrub?......all GREAT second option that routinely averaged 19 points or less as second options to their first option. So leBron's second option must be held to a higher standard than other second options?...

Here is the problem with you naming those guys though... Those guys actually raised their play in the playoffs and actually played way better defense than Williams. Williams on offense? You decide:

First Round vs Pistons 2009

http://gyazo.com/f8b963273d6a756e352f7958f7588df4.png

ECSF vs Hawks 2009

http://gyazo.com/e501d0a5ed973418638c16c34642f56a.png

ECF vs Magic 2009

http://gyazo.com/9b10c4fcc6c732dc539628253bd847b6.png

First Round vs Bulls 2010

http://gyazo.com/aaf8b22248f4258a21ed241543de42f4.png

ECSF vs Celtics 2010

http://gyazo.com/2685973a4bdfa3ae49a59ded12487f4d.png


Who called those other guys you mentioned scrubs ? Mention one thing that Willaims does outside of shooting the rock better than those guys you mentioned.... Sure has hell is not defense.

[Legends66NBA7]

the MVP is given to 1 person, but its unachievable without team success therefore it's a team accomplishment in its own right.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar`s 1975-76 MVP says hi. His team went 40-42.

[I.R.Beast]

Those other guys did lots more on defense than Mo Williams could ever do. It's not just about PPG.
He said 18 points by a second option isnt good when there are tons of great second options that don't even sniff 20 points per game.

So clearly Mo could not have been that bad of a second option. Dont make outlandish claims that James played with scrubs, just say that they did not play to the level that they played in the regular season. New flash it's the playoff, not very many players play up to their regular season level.

[I.R.Beast]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar`s 1975-76 MVP says hi. His team went 40-42.

Hmmm....how many years ago.....That will NEVER happen again, you and I both know that. The critieria for MVP has changed vastly. It's best player on Best team award(record wise).

[I.R.Beast]

I think they will both finish in the top 20, easily.

Here's the difference. Lebron has the chance to finish top 5. Wade doesn't.
...LMAo...why doesn't he?......you are a very delusional young man.

[D-Wade316]

Season MVP is the highest individual honor a player can get. Every seasonal MVP has/will make the Hall of Fame. There are players who have won FMVP that will never make the HOF.
Wade is no Parker or Billups.

[Jacks3]

Here's the difference. Lebron has the chance to finish top 5. Wade doesn't.
+1

There's a reason LeBron is considered a potential GOAT candidate and Wade is not.

[kidachi]

Me being a longtime and a huuge fan of Wade..

I'd still say no.. his resume isn't in that level yet.. I hope it improves.. :D

he's in the top 6 though.. with..

MJ, Kobe, Jerry West, Drexler, Ray Allen

[derb2k2]

I think WAde's been robbed of all-nba defense 2 time right? damn that Kobe

[hammer2010]

You people need to stop overrating this cat so much. He may have 2 or maybe 3 more years of decent production and then due to his lack of skill he will fall off completely. That's considering he doesn't miss any significant amount of time in that stretch due to injury which he most likely will. In 15 years he will be forgotten and thrown somewhere in the bottom half of the top 15 SGs all-time.

[kidachi]

I think WAde's been robbed of all-nba defense 2 time right? damn that Kobe

maybe even thrice.. Kobe's great and all but he's such and overrated defender.. :banghead:

[HiphopRelated]

You people need to stop overrating this cat so much. He may have 2 or maybe 3 more years of decent production and then due to his lack of skill he will fall off completely. That's considering he doesn't miss any significant amount of time in that stretch due to injury which he most likely will. In 15 years he will be forgotten and thrown somewhere in the bottom half of the top 15 SGs all-time.
why when he has ALREADY achieved more than anybody not named Jordan, Kobe or West?

2-3 more years gives him 10 years as a 25 ppg/all nba player

[Jacks3]

You people need to stop overrating this cat so much. He may have 2 or maybe 3 more years of decent production and then due to his lack of skill he will fall off completely. That's considering he doesn't miss any significant amount of time in that stretch due to injury which he most likely will. In 15 years he will be forgotten and thrown somewhere in the bottom half of the top 15 SGs all-time.
This.

[DaHeezy]

Iverson > Wade

Wade without Shaq and Wade without Lebron, you pretty much have a career similar to Tracy McGrady.

[RRR3]

Iverson > Wade

Wade without Shaq and Wade without Lebron, you pretty much have a career similar to Tracy McGrady.
Peak McGrady>Wade.

[hammer2010]

I take Jordan, Kobe, West, Drexler, Gervin, Havlicek, Iverson, McGrady over Wade.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wade is vastly overrated by ESPN. Calling him Lebron's "batman" and "go-to-guy". It's amusing for the reason that dude has never been considered superior in the clutch (or as clutch) as Lebron or Kobe. All the data and advanced measures back this up. Just some hyperbole from a bullshit media outlet.

[RRR3]

Wade is vastly overrated by ESPN. Calling him Lebron's "batman" and "go-to-guy". It's amusing for the reason that dude has never been considered superior in the clutch (or as clutch) as Lebron or Kobe. All the data and advanced measures back this up. Doesn't add up -- more hyperbole from a bullshit media outlet.
I feel like to an extent, though, for much of his career Wade has been a bit unfairly overshadowed by LBJ and Kobe. Sure, for most of his career one or both of them have been better players than him, but not by a lot really. He's one of the best perimeter players ever and should get more credit in a legit way, not just in a way that is aimed to be a thinly veiled insult to LeBron.

[dunksby]

Wade is the most overrated player here on ISH, the guy at best is 4th on the SG list and will be lucky to stay there in 10 years.

[D-Wade316]

:oldlol: @ the haters

Wade > T-Mac & Iverson. Not even close.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I feel like to an extent, though, for much of his career Wade has been a bit unfairly overshadowed by LBJ and Kobe. Sure, for most of his career one or both of them have been better players than him, but not by a lot really. He's one of the best perimeter players ever and should get more credit in a legit way, not just in a way that is aimed to be a thinly veiled insult to LeBron.

No doubt, and I do give him his share of the credit.

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/wade-kobe-lebron-playoff-breakdown-by-defense1.jpg

Wade's fantastic play against the best defenses..

2008-09, he was at the very least 1A/1B to Lebron in-terms of production and court-skills. I feel Wade's jumpshot has eroded since and overall has become very lazy on the defensive end (like Kobe, he picks and chooses the nights he wants to defend). Maybe if ESPN didn't paint their picture a certain way, the basketball world would recognize his greatness. Instead, we're forced to talk about how overrated the guy is because of their agenda (that sells) against Lebron.

[DaHeezy]

:oldlol: @ the haters

Wade > T-Mac & Iverson. Not even close.

Wade may be better because of opportunities, but given the same opportunities Iverson would have had an outstanding career and possibly solidify being top 3 all-time. What has Wade done outside of Shaq? Never led the league in any significant stats, no awards, been a lame duck. Pretty much a Vince or T-Mac. Sorry but Shaq created this mistique for Wade

[miles berg]

Clyde the Glyde is #3.

[Jacks3]

Wade is the most overrated player here on ISH, the guy at best is 4th on the SG list and will be lucky to stay there in 10 years.
+1000

[D-Wade316]

Wade may be better because of opportunities, but given the same opportunities Iverson would have had an outstanding career and possibly solidify being top 3 all-time. What has Wade done outside of Shaq?
:facepalm So much hypocrisy in this post.

What did MJ achieve without Pippen?
What did Shaq achieve without Kobe and Wade?
What did Magic achieve without Kareem and Worthy?
What did Russell achieve without Cousy, Jones, Havlicek?
the list goes on...

Never led the league in any significant stats, no awards, been a lame duck.
And Lebron? Kobe? Iverson? T-Mac?

Pretty much a Vince or T-Mac. Sorry but Shaq created this mistique for Wade
:facepalm Wade carried Shaq in his 4th title. Shaq was not your ordinary 2nd fiddle. But to say that Shaq made Wade? Your dumb as fukk.

[DaHeezy]

:facepalm So much hypocrisy in this post.

What did MJ achieve without Pippen?
What did Shaq achieve without Kobe and Wade?
What did Magic achieve without Kareem and Worthy?
What did Russell achieve without Cousy, Jones, Havlicek?
the list goes on...

your pretty uneducated to think these guys couldn't have garnered team success without players mentioned. Shaq, MJ, Magic? They could have won with practically any team. Don't be silly

And Lebron? Kobe? Iverson? T-Mac?

umm, scoring titles? MVP's? Has Wade won either?

:facepalm Wade carried Shaq in his 4th title. Shaq was not your ordinary 2nd fiddle. But to say that Shaq made Wade? Your dumb as fukk.

Wade carried an MVP Shaq? And you're calling me dumb?


:facepalm

[jlauber]

MJ, Kobe, and West. And you could make an argument for Oscar, too. After that, Wade would certainly be in the conversation.

[D-Wade316]

your pretty uneducated to think these guys couldn't have garnered team success without players mentioned. Shaq, MJ, Magic? They could have won with practically any team. Don't be silly
You're a retard if you think lone Magic with any team is capable of defeating the 80s Celtics, early 80s Sixers, or Bad Boys Pistons. And Wade can't have team success if a championship caliber team surrounds him? SMH. He won in 06, nearly won in 11 if not for Lebron choking, and nearly advanced to the 05 Finals if not for that rib injury(?).

Don't stray towards hypothetical scenarios.

umm, scoring titles? MVP's? Has Wade won either?
:facepalm You're the one who is uneducated. He won a scoring title in 09. And I don't need an MVP award to gauge his dominance. Iverson and Rose each have 1. Does that mean both player's prime are significantly better than Wade's? No. Not even close.

Wade carried an MVP Shaq? And you're calling me dumb?

05-06 Shaq was nowhere near MVP candidate.

[DaHeezy]

You're a retard if you think lone Magic with any team is capable of defeating the 80s Celtics, early 80s Sixers, or Bad Boys Pistons. And Wade can't have team success if a championship caliber team surrounds him? SMH. He won in 06, nearly won in 11 if not for Lebron choking, and nearly advanced to the 05 Finals if not for that rib injury(?).

An older Magic took a bunch of smaller than above average players to the finals, I think he'd do well

Don't stray towards hypothetical scenarios.

yet all your replies are hypothetical?
:facepalm You're the one who is uneducated. He won a scoring title in 09. And I don't need an MVP award to gauge his dominance. Iverson and Rose each have 1. Does that mean both player's prime are significantly better than Wade's? No. Not even close.
well you got me there. But on that premise I don't consider him any better than T-Mac

As for the MVP argument, yes it is significant. It's an indicator of how important you were to your teams success and a measuring stick of how you compare to the rest of the league. I say it's very significant


05-06 Shaq was nowhere near MVP candidate.

Still very dominant

Peace out

[GOBB]

Jrong nothing you said is factual. All opinion. Has to suck right? That you think what you actually typed is a fact. What a rude awakening. Like the kid catching his mom putting presents under the tree with a milk mustache.

[tpols]

Jrong nothing you said is factual. All opinion. Has to suck right? That you think what you actually typed is a fact. What a rude awakening. Like the kid catching his mom putting presents under the tree with a milk mustache.
:oldlol:

[All Net]

By the end of his career? I expect he will be as I see him winning a few more rings yet....

[D-Wade316]

An older Magic took a bunch of smaller than above average players to the finals, I think he'd do well
True, but there's no comparison between the 80s Celtics, 80s Pistons, or 80s Sixers to the 91 Blazers or 91 Warriors.

yet all your replies are hypothetical?
What are they?

As for the MVP argument, yes it is significant. It's an indicator of how important you were to your teams success and a measuring stick of how you compare to the rest of the league. I say it's very significant
It is certainly the highest award a player can garner, but with the current voting system it lost its value.

Still very dominant
But not by much.

[GOBB]

Yeah if not for Bron choking Wade would have won again. Must be frustrating trying to win an NBA title when your teammates feature arguably the best player in the NBA and another top 5 player. Maybe Iverson should have had a little pow wow with other superstars and begged them to link up making their road to a ring easier. Then again that backfired in Wades case. Must be really tough winning an NBA title with Shaq on your team. I know I know he has a Finals MVP. No one can compete with that because according to you the MVP trophy has lost its value. Good thing Wade hasnt won any regular season MVP trophies, I doubt that argument would be used against him. Whew!

[Dwade305]

Iverson won an MVP? I thought Shaq let him borrow it but AI gave it back already

[GOBB]

Iverson won an MVP? I thought Shaq let him borrow it but AI gave it back already

Same thing I thought about Wade's finals MVP. Damn, we are both scratching out heads. No dandruff!

[DMAVS41]

No, I was saying IF Miami won the chip last year, where does DMAVS have Wade in the Top 15 and where is LeBron exactly?

Also, who else is in that Top 15? Was just curious about that list DMAVS had...

the same usual guys

my order:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. wilt
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe

that is set in stone for awhile based on the accepted criteria here. i alter it a little, but try to keep it consistent. for example...kobe probably has had a better career than hakeem...but hakeem was just a better player in my opinion. i'd never start a franchise with kobe over hakeem. so i hope that explains how i rank players a little.

now for the next group if the heat had won...in no order (because i think its impossible):

wade/west/oscar/moses/lebron/dr. j..etc.

i would have wade absolutely in my top 15 though. 2 titles. 2 finals mvp's. some of the best numbers of all time at the guard position. after the top 10...which players deserve to be over him? west? debatable. oscar? debatable. lebron? debatable. moses? debatable. dr. j? debatable.

he'd definitely be in the top 15 range. there would be just no argument for guys like kg/dirk/malone/barkley....if the heat had won. then you'd get into some debates about baylor and hondo and pettit....and i can't comment a ton on that because i never saw them play.

wade's resume would just be too good to not put him up there in the group knocking on the top 10 door.

[tpols]

i'd never start a franchise with kobe over hakeem. so i hope that explains how i rank players a little..
Wasn't there just a thread where the majority of posters said they'd rather start a franchise with Dwight over Dirk? Everyone would rather start a franchise with a traditional defensive/offensive low post center. It's much easier to build around and just a safer bet overall.. Really has nothing to do with how good a player's career was in retrospect.

[Rameek]

Wade an all time great :rolleyes: :facepalm :banghead:

[jlauber]

Wade an all time great :rolleyes: :facepalm :banghead:

Barring injury, he still has 5-8 more quaility seasons left. Let's revisit this thread in a few years, shall we?

[DMAVS41]

Wasn't there just a thread where the majority of posters said they'd rather start a franchise with Dwight over Dirk? Everyone would rather start a franchise with a traditional defensive/offensive low post center. It's much easier to build around and just a safer bet overall.. Really has nothing to do with how good a player's career was in retrospect.

well, its really just about impact for me.

its not about safety at this point because we know what each player was capable of and what kind of player they were.

i agree that if its unknown, i'd go with a center...but this isn't unknown.

i just think hakeem was the better player and the more impactful player...

and i hugely disagree with the howard vs dirk thread....but that is just me

[dunksby]

the same usual guys

my order:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. wilt
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe

that is set in stone for awhile based on the accepted criteria here. i alter it a little, but try to keep it consistent. for example...kobe probably has had a better career than hakeem...but hakeem was just a better player in my opinion. i'd never start a franchise with kobe over hakeem. so i hope that explains how i rank players a little.

now for the next group if the heat had won...in no order (because i think its impossible):

wade/west/oscar/moses/lebron/dr. j..etc.

i would have wade absolutely in my top 15 though. 2 titles. 2 finals mvp's. some of the best numbers of all time at the guard position. after the top 10...which players deserve to be over him? west? debatable. oscar? debatable. lebron? debatable. moses? debatable. dr. j? debatable.

he'd definitely be in the top 15 range. there would be just no argument for guys like kg/dirk/malone/barkley....if the heat had won. then you'd get into some debates about baylor and hondo and pettit....and i can't comment a ton on that because i never saw them play.

wade's resume would just be too good to not put him up there in the group knocking on the top 10 door.
You rank players based on who YOU would start a franchise with? Thats a ****ed up criteria, players are ranked based on their individual and collective accomplishments, and that is exactly why you have MJ on top isnt it? That and you being too scared not to have MJ as GOAT. Your list is messed up and it would be even worse had you stuck with your own retarded logic and had the balls to not have MJ on top.

[DMAVS41]

You rank players based on who YOU would start a franchise with? Thats a ****ed up criteria, players are ranked based on their individual and collective accomplishments, and that is exactly why you have MJ on top isnt it? That and you being too scared not to have MJ as GOAT. Your list is messed up and it would be even worse had you stuck with your own retarded logic and had the balls to not have MJ on top.

What? Its not based on one thing alone. Its based on the accepted criteria and I make a few changes.

I just can't put Kobe over Hakeem because it was clear to ME that Hakeem was the better and more impactful player.

That is why its MY list....

[tpols]

i agree that if its unknown, i'd go with a center...but this isn't unknown.


Even if it's known.. We know Dirk is a better individual player than Dwight. But it is much easier to build around Dwight. Thats just a fact. If you give Dwight an allstar wing in 09 he has a very good shot at a title. He's been carrying shit to 50+ wins and deep playoff runs for years. Imagine if Dwight had Steve Nash, Finley, Stackhouse, Terry, and all of the other perimeter scorers Dirk had instead of Turkogolu and Jameer Nelson? Dirk needs a defensive anchor beside him plus those wing threats. Dwight really just needs some above average wings. It's just easier to win with a traditional big man so that doesn't make much sense in a GOAT list. If it were that important of a factor Shaq would be top 3 all time because there's no way in hell people are taking anyone over him. I'm not even sure people would draft MJ over Shaq.

[DMAVS41]

Even if it's known.. We know Dirk is a better individual player than Dwight. But it is much easier to build around Dwight. Thats just a fact. If you give Dwight an allstar wing in 09 he has a very good shot at a title. He's been carrying shit to 50+ wins and deep playoff runs for years. Imagine if Dwight had Steve Nash, Finley, Stackhouse, Terry, and all of the other perimeter scorers Dirk had instead of Turkogolu and Jameer Nelson? Dirk needs a defensive anchor beside him plus those wing threats. Dwight really just needs some above average wings. It's just easier to win with a traditional big man so that doesn't make much sense in a GOAT list. If it were that important of a factor Shaq would be top 3 all time because there's no way in hell people are taking anyone over him. I'm not even sure people would draft MJ over Shaq.

I disagree with that. I understand where you are coming from, but its not like Dirk has needed all that much in reality.

You are just rattling off some players that Dirk had that were very good, but not always the right fit. And its not like the Mavs did nothing. In 03 they made the WCF and lost to the Spurs (Dirk missed most of the series)...

Howard wouldn't have won anything with Finley and Nash if Nash was in the form he was in 04.

Its funny to hear people talk about the 02 through 04 Mavs as if they were just a loaded team. They were on paper, but reality is different. And injuries really hurt them:

Is Howard leading the 02 Mavs past the Kings? LOL...of course not.
Are the Mavs beating the Spurs in 03 if Howard gets hurt? Nope.
Is Howard doing anything with that team in 04 with a hurt Nash and declining Finley? Nope.

I totally agree that Howard fits around those players better...but he still wouldn't have done anything with them. He might have in 03 if he didn't get hurt like Dirk did....but Dirk might have as well.

Howard/Nash/Finley...totally agree that fits better than Dirk with those guys

But getting Nash/Finley is not easier than getting Nash and Chandler or something like that

[dunksby]

What? Its not based on one thing alone. Its based on the accepted criteria and I make a few changes.

I just can't put Kobe over Hakeem because it was clear to ME that Hakeem was the better and more impactful player.

That is why its MY list....
what is this "The accepted criteria"? Additionally how is it so clear to you that Hakeem was the better and more influential player? I mean its not like we are comparing Hakeem with D12 here, Kobe is an all-time great player who is conventionally Top 10 even on your list but claiming there is a clear gap between Hakeem at #9 on your own list and him is just messed up and goes beyond the 'Its my opinion' get out of discussion free card.
Moreover you decided to publish your list on a public forum so you should be ready to take criticism and have arguments more substantial than saying stuff is clear to you like we are idiots questioning your all-knowing third eye.
Lastly, if you were to start a franchise who would you choose among your top 5?

[DMAVS41]

what is this "The accepted criteria"? Additionally how is it so clear to you that Hakeem was the better and more influential player? I mean its not like we are comparing Hakeem with D12 here, Kobe is an all-time great player who is conventionally Top 10 even on your list but claiming there is a clear gap between Hakeem at #9 on your own list and him is just messed up and goes beyond the 'Its my opinion' get out of discussion free card.
Moreover you decided to publish your list on a public forum so you should be ready to take criticism and have arguments more substantial than saying stuff is clear to you like we are idiots questioning your all-knowing third eye.
Lastly, if you were to start a franchise who would you choose among your top 5?

what? it is my opinion that hakeem was a better player than kobe. hardly controversial. i love my list...LOL. i don't need to defend it.

my top 5 to start a franchise?

jordan
magic
russell
wilt
kareem

[dunksby]

what? it is my opinion that hakeem was a better player than kobe. hardly controversial. i love my list...LOL. i don't need to defend it.

my top 5 to start a franchise?

jordan
magic
russell
wilt
kareem
You seem to be a bit careless with your reading, you are basically saying you just like to put Hakeem over Kobe then? Since I dont see any other argument other than a pathetic its my opinion repeated over and over again.
Regarding my other question you continue to amaze me with your lack of effort put into comprehending posts addressed to you, I asked:

Lastly, if you were to start a franchise who would you choose among your top 5? Pick one please.

[DMAVS41]

You seem to be a bit careless with your reading, you are basically saying you just like to put Hakeem over Kobe then? Since I dont see any other argument other than a pathetic its my opinion repeated over and over again.
Regarding my other question you continue to amaze me with your lack of effort put into comprehending posts addressed to you, I asked:
Pick one please.

i don't feel like going into why. the quick version:

if hakeem got the same kind of help kobe had throughout his career he would be talked about as a possible GOAT

hakeem was a better playoff performer

hakeem was far more unselfish and a better teammate

hakeem was also very clutch

hakeem's defensive impact was huge

Do i really have to go into the 26/11/3 on 53% fg for Hakeem's career in the playoffs in 15 trips? Do I have to talk about his absurdly good playoff runs in 94 or 95 that Kobe would have absolutely 0% chance of reproducing with similar teams?


who would i start a franchise with? MJ...he's the best player of all time in my opinion

[dunksby]

i don't feel like going into why. the quick version:

if hakeem got the same kind of help kobe had throughout his career he would be talked about as a possible GOAT

hakeem was a better playoff performer

hakeem was far more unselfish and a better teammate

hakeem was also very clutch

hakeem's defensive impact was huge

Do i really have to go into the 26/11/3 on 53% fg for Hakeem's career in the playoffs in 15 trips? Do I have to talk about his absurdly good playoff runs in 94 or 95 that Kobe would have absolutely 0% chance of reproducing with similar teams?


who would i start a franchise with? MJ...he's the best player of all time in my opinion
According to yourself Hakeem did not have a good team to back him up which is one reason for his amazing numbers going into playoffs, and for the same reason why do you have MJ as your GOAT? He did not win shit till he got a good team. On another note are you really bringing in unselfishness into this? Then why is MJ your GOAT? Clutch is a very wild criteria but its a major part which I dont think Kobe is lacking in that department. Hakeem was a big man and could defend the paint and in the post season thats what matters but you cant bring this in to discredit Kobe, its an advantage all Big guys have, its like saying D12's impact on Magic's defense is huge so he is better than Kobe.
And finally you dont follow your own logic yet again, according to you if Hakeem had a good supporting cast as good as Kobe he would be GOAT so why the hell not would you pick Hakeem, since MJ's supporting cast was as good as Kobe's if not better. Imagine having MJ and Pippen around him would not he be GOAT?

[DMAVS41]

According to yourself Hakeem did not have a good team to back him up which is one reason for his amazing numbers going into playoffs, and for the same reason why do you have MJ as your GOAT? He did not win shit till he got a good team. On another note are you really bringing in unselfishness into this? Then why is MJ your GOAT? Clutch is a very wild criteria but its a major part which I dont think Kobe is lacking in that department. Hakeem was a big man and could defend the paint and in the post season thats what matters but you cant bring this in to discredit Kobe, its an advantage all Big guys have, its like saying D12's impact on Magic's defense is huge so he is better than Kobe.
And finally you dont follow your own logic yet again, according to you if Hakeem had a good supporting cast as good as Kobe he would be GOAT so why the hell not would you pick Hakeem, since MJ's supporting cast was as good as Kobe's if not better. Imagine having MJ and Pippen around him would not he be GOAT?

You seem to not be able to grasp that a lot goes into this. You can't narrow it down to just 1 or 2 things.

I personally feel MJ was the best player ever. Then when I go look at the numbers...the numbers show that he's definitely in that discussion. Then I think about which player all time I would want on my team to win 1 playoff game. Then I think about which player I would want going into the 4th qtr of a close playoff game. Then I think about who I want with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game. Then I think about who I want taking the last shot....

The above is just a few of the questions I ask about a player when ranking him....

And I don't feel that MJ had the level of help you do.....

[dunksby]

You seem to not be able to grasp that a lot goes into this. You can't narrow it down to just 1 or 2 things.

I personally feel MJ was the best player ever. Then when I go look at the numbers...the numbers show that he's definitely in that discussion. Then I think about which player all time I would want on my team to win 1 playoff game. Then I think about which player I would want going into the 4th qtr of a close playoff game. Then I think about who I want with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game. Then I think about who I want taking the last shot....

The above is just a few of the questions I ask about a player when ranking him....

And I don't feel that MJ had the level of help you do.....
All those questions you ask are irrelevant as long as you know who you are facing and who you got around your All-timer. That is why players are ranked based on their individual and collective accomplishments not some fairy tale you make up in your mind like an eight year old girl playing with her dolls. And MJ did have a kickass team to help him to those precious Rings.
Finally, even if those questions above were relevant the answer to all of them could easily be KAJ.

[DMAVS41]

All those questions you ask are irrelevant as long as you know who you are facing and who you got around your All-timer. That is why players are ranked based on their individual and collective accomplishments not some fairy tale you make up in your mind like an eight year old girl playing with her dolls. And MJ did have a kickass team to help him to those precious Rings.
Finally, even if those questions above were relevant the answer to all of them could easily be KAJ.

Sure they could be Kareem. But for ME....they are MJ. I think MJ was a better player than Kareem.

You obviously don't. You act as if my list or taking MJ first is some sort of crazy notion. Sorry...it isn't.

And if you rank Kobe over Hakeem...more power to you. I guess I don't understand that if you say rankings should be more about the individual. What evidence are you going to use to claim Kobe was individually better than Hakeem throughout his career. All the metrics point Hakeem being the better and more impactful individual player.

The only think kobe really has on hakeem is team success....which you value very little it seems.

So i'm just confused now...why do you think kobe should be ahead of hakeem?

[LT Ice Cream]

Yes he is.


LOL :oldlol:

Homerism at its finest.

[305Baller]

Is Wade better than Moncrief and Gervin already?

And Drexler?

[HiphopRelated]

Is Wade better than Moncrief and Gervin already?

And Drexler?
why wouldn't he be?

[305Baller]

why wouldn't he be?

let's see the stats.

nba.com could use a head-to-head comparison chart for all-time players as well as current players.

[GOBB]

LOL :oldlol:

Homerism at its finest.

My favorite player of all time is and will always be Scottie Pippen. Somehow he isnt apart of the convo. My favorite players since Scottie Pippen? Allen Iverson and Dwayne Wade. A player who I'm a fan of today and looks like I will add to this group? Derrick Rose. So tell me where is this homerism or whatever the f*ck that is located? :confusedshrug:

This is where you go to your room wearing that itchy sweater with the giant tree patch on the front that aunt Carol made you for xmas.

[305Baller]

My favorite player of all time is and will always be Scottie Pippen. Somehow he isnt apart of the convo. My favorite players since Scottie Pippen? Allen Iverson and Dwayne Wade. A player who I'm a fan of today and looks like I will add to this group? Derrick Rose. So tell me where is this homerism or whatever the f*ck that is located? :confusedshrug:

This is where you go to your room wearing that itchy sweater with the giant tree patch on the front that aunt Carol made you for xmas.

I always undervalued Pippen, but I finally realized this year how good he was by watching some old games.

[HiphopRelated]

Wade

1x Champ
1x Finals MVP
25/5/6 reg season
26/6/6 playoffs in 87 games

Moncrief

15/5/4 reg season

I'm not going further

Drexler
1x champ
20/6/6 reg season
20/7/6 playoffs 145 games

Gervin
26/5/3 reg season
27/6/3 playoffs 59 games

[greensborohill]

No. You guys love to just piss on the history of the game.

[LT Ice Cream]

My favorite player of all time is and will always be Scottie Pippen. Somehow he isnt apart of the convo. My favorite players since Scottie Pippen? Allen Iverson and Dwayne Wade. A player who I'm a fan of today and looks like I will add to this group? Derrick Rose. So tell me where is this homerism or whatever the f*ck that is located? :confusedshrug:

This is where you go to your room wearing that itchy sweater with the giant tree patch on the front that aunt Carol made you for xmas.

:oldlol: I feel sorry for you. I really do. So butthurt over a forum.
Wade on that Sixers team would have taken them so much farther. There is no way Iverson is better than wade. Better scorer maybe, but that's about it. Basketball is not a one dimensional game.

[305Baller]

Wade

1x Champ
1x Finals MVP
25/5/6 reg season
26/6/6 playoffs in 87 games

Moncrief

15/5/4 reg season

I'm not going further

Drexler
1x champ
20/6/6 reg season
20/7/6 playoffs 145 games

Gervin
26/5/3 reg season
27/6/3 playoffs 59 games

:D

[GOBB]

:oldlol: I feel sorry for you. I really do. So butthurt over a forum.

So you couldnt find what you accused me of. Awesome, and now somewhere in my recent post it appears I am butthurt? I mean all I did was explain who my favorite player of all time was, then proceeded to list the other all time favs of mine showing if there was a bias it would be for Pippen who once again isnt apart of this discussion. But I guess I can just assume you wont show me where I'm being butthurt at? Nah, you wont.


Wade on that Sixers team would have taken them so much farther.

How farther can you go after the NBA Finals? :confusedshrug:

Wade would have done exactly what he did for the Miami Heat teams minus Shaq, minus Lebron/Bosh. I let you tell that story tho my friend.


There is no way Iverson is better than wade.

Thats your opinion. I'm sorry its not a fact tho. I think thats what you were going for. To quote you? I feel sorry for you, I really do.

Anyway here is my opinion stated in this thread not too far down from the post you initially quoted and talked out of your ass...


But Wade could end up passing Iverson when his career is over. He's on the track too. I wouldnt be mad. AI is my 2nd fav player of all time, and today Wade is my favorite. 2nd fav today is Derrick Rose. Seems i'm arguing which of my favorite players are better than the other. A win win situation if you ask me. And yes offtopic, Rose just might end his career as a better player than Iverson. Potential is there but for now Iverson is the man...for now. :pimp:

[305Baller]

I guess Wade is #3. Holy smokes!

And personally I would take Wade over Kobe because Wade has a better all-around game and court-vision even though statistically Kobe is better.

Jordan
Wade
Kobe
!

yessierrrr

:pimp:


this cannot be right. Dr. J must be up here out of respect to the position, yeah he was a sf but he would be a sg in this era.

this cant be right.

[97 bulls]

Probably your worst post ever.

Flavor of the month? Wade has now played 8 years:

Here are his career numbers:

25/6/5 57% TS regular season
26/6/6 57% TS playoffs

He's led a team to the title and now has 2 great finals performances. He's accomplished more in his 8 years (with 2 seasons gone to injuries) than most hall of famers do in their entire careers.

Again...flavor of the month? He's Lebron/Bosh not choking their asses off from being universally considered a top 15 player of all time.

What a ****ing awful post.
Don't get me wrong. Wade is great but top 3? Of all SGs? I guess my standards are higher than yours

[305Baller]

Don't get me wrong. Wade is great but top 3? Of all SGs? I guess my standards are higher than yours

I am having a hard time believing it myself.

Who would be your top 5 sgs?

My knowledge is limited to late 80's- 90s and 00s for players I have seen myself

[97 bulls]

I am having a hard time believing it myself.

Who would be your top 5 sgs?

My knowledge is limited to late 80's- 90s and 00s for players I have seen myself
Jordan, bryant, west, is my top 3. They have the accolades, stats, longevity, as well as championships that wade hasn't achieved yet. And those guys have all been the best SGs of their respective eras. Wade is in the next group with gervin, iverson etc.

[305Baller]

Jordan, bryant, west, is my top 3. They have the accolades, stats, longevity, as well as championships that wade hasn't achieved yet. And those guys have all been the best SGs of their respective eras. Wade is in the next group with gervin, iverson etc.


Do you think Wade would trounce West one on one if both were in their primes today? I don't have the info to make an opinion on that but if the game has progressed and advanced athletically as well as in preparation I will say that Wade would have a good argument.

i agree that longevity is an important aspect of the scenario lets see what Wade does here on out, it will be interesting. He could end up ahead of Kobe or West by pure numbers alone, we will see, he has to be consistently good for a few more years obviously.

But in my reality distortion field Wade is better than Kobe so Wade is already #2 in my distortion.

[97 bulls]

All those questions you ask are irrelevant as long as you know who you are facing and who you got around your All-timer. That is why players are ranked based on their individual and collective accomplishments not some fairy tale you make up in your mind like an eight year old girl playing with her dolls. And MJ did have a kickass team to help him to those precious Rings.
Finally, even if those questions above were relevant the answer to all of them could easily be KAJ.
I've had similar conversations with dmavs regarding the role jordans teammaates playedd in those 6 wins.

What he fails to realize is that jordan played alongside two other hofer players and two other hofer coaches.

Not to mention we know how well the bulls could playy without mj. I don't see how he or anyone could say such drivle

[97 bulls]

Do you think Wade would trounce West one on one if both were in their primes today? I don't have the info to make an opinion on that but if the game has progressed and advanced athletically as well as in preparation I will say that Wade would have a good argument.

i agree that longevity is an important aspect of the scenario lets see what Wade does here on out, it will be interesting. He could end up ahead of Kobe or West by pure numbers alone, we will see, he has to be consistently good for a few more years obviously.

But in my reality distortion field Wade is better than Kobe so Wade is already #2 in my distortion.
You feeling wade should be ranked hiigher than kobe or west isnt you distorting the facts. This is all opinion. Yours holds just as much weight as mine or any other poster. I may disagree but don't sell yourself short.

To answer your question, I'm sure wade could beat west one on one. But basketball isn't played 1v1. Basketball is a team sport. Who's to say that tony allen couldn't beat wade one on one?

[dunksby]

Sure they could be Kareem. But for ME....they are MJ. I think MJ was a better player than Kareem.

You obviously don't. You act as if my list or taking MJ first is some sort of crazy notion. Sorry...it isn't.

And if you rank Kobe over Hakeem...more power to you. I guess I don't understand that if you say rankings should be more about the individual. What evidence are you going to use to claim Kobe was individually better than Hakeem throughout his career. All the metrics point Hakeem being the better and more impactful individual player.

The only think kobe really has on hakeem is team success....which you value very little it seems.

So i'm just confused now...why do you think kobe should be ahead of hakeem?
I donno how you could get that from my posts, I'm actually putting team accomplishments equal if not higher to the individual accomplishments and thats exactly where Kobe shines.

[dunksby]

I've had similar conversations with dmavs regarding the role jordans teammaates playedd in those 6 wins.

What he fails to realize is that jordan played alongside two other hofer players and two other hofer coaches.

Not to mention we know how well the bulls could playy without mj. I don't see how he or anyone could say such drivle
His logic is flawed since he puts perceived potential of a particular player before what that player managed to show off. It's obvious MJ managed to win those titles with the great help of his teammates and thats what makes him the conventional #1 and that is also exactly why Kobe is superior to Hakeem, period.

[305Baller]

You feeling wade should be ranked hiigher than kobe or west isnt you distorting the facts. This is all opinion. Yours holds just as much weight as mine or any other poster. I may disagree but don't sell yourself short.

To answer your question, I'm sure wade could beat west one on one. But basketball isn't played 1v1. Basketball is a team sport. Who's to say that tony allen couldn't beat wade one on one?

im cool with that.

I could beat Wade one-on-one in bball.

Maybe not LeBron because of Bron's height... but Wade, Wade I could challenge AND BEAT.

[97 bulls]

im cool with that.

I could beat Wade one-on-one in bball.

Maybe not LeBron because of Bron's height... but Wade, Wade I could challenge AND BEAT.
Lol you think that? Anything is possible.

[DMAVS41]

His logic is flawed since he puts perceived potential of a particular player before what that player managed to show off. It's obvious MJ managed to win those titles with the great help of his teammates and thats what makes him the conventional #1 and that is also exactly why Kobe is superior to Hakeem, period.

What? What horribly flawed logic.

So Kobe is above Hakeem simply because he had the great fortune of playing with Shaq. LOL...you are using something heavily that is outside the control of a player.

Makes no sense at all.

Figured you for a moron. Never knew it would be the "5 rings" moron type. Wow.

You have to put things into context. Everything matters. Kobe is absolutely not superior to Hakeem simply because his teams won more rings. That just doesn't add up at all. Especially because there is absolutely no evidence to show that Kobe would have ever been capable of winning a ring without at the worst a top 3 supporting cast in the league...LOL

[DMAVS41]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.

Lets quote this post again 97 Bulls:

"you don't see what makes him so great"

"hes only had two great seasons"

"what's so special about the 3-4 injury years"

LOL

In before Pippen >>>>> Magic....:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[dunksby]

What? What horribly flawed logic.

So Kobe is above Hakeem simply because he had the great fortune of playing with Shaq. LOL...you are using something heavily that is outside the control of a player.

Makes no sense at all.

Figured you for a moron. Never knew it would be the "5 rings" moron type. Wow.

You have to put things into context. Everything matters. Kobe is absolutely not superior to Hakeem simply because his teams won more rings. That just doesn't add up at all. Especially because there is absolutely no evidence to show that Kobe would have ever been capable of winning a ring without at the worst a top 3 supporting cast in the league...LOL
Now who is taking shit out of the context? Never thought you would pull this shit, you are pathetic.

[97 bulls]

Lets quote this post again 97 Bulls:

"you don't see what makes him so great"

"hes only had two great seasons"

"what's so special about the 3-4 injury years"

LOL

In before Pippen >>>>> Magic....:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
I qualified this in a later post by stating that he has not accomplished enough to jump west, or bryant. Wade is great, but not so great that he trumps bryant or wade in my opinion.

My standards for greatness are higher than yours.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Calling Wade the 'flavor of the month' isn't right, 97. Sorry man, that just sounds ignorant. In contrast to his peers, dude has been the best player against the leagues best defenses.

I find him overrated when dbags call him Lebron's "batman". He's an all-time great though.

[97 bulls]

Calling Wade the 'flavor of the month' isn't right, 97. Sorry man, that just sounds ignorant. In contrast to his peers, dude has been the best player against the leagues best defenses.

I find him overrated when dbags call him Lebron's "batman". He's an all-time great though.
I call him a flavor. Of the month in the sense that he's what popular right now. He's at the height of his game. But as his career winds down, I feel he will settle into the right spot.

[Odinn]

Kobe has a good case over West and West has a good case over Kobe. Wade doesn't have a case for both. So nope. He isn't (and probably won't be) top3 SG ever.

[D-Wade316]

I call him a flavor. Of the month in the sense that he's what popular right now. He's at the height of his game. But as his career winds down, I feel he will settle into the right spot.
He's not and probably never was or never will be. The only time he get media love was back in 06-07 before the injury. It has been uphill battle since then. Even after that Finals against the Mavs, everybody was talking how Lebron choked, etc. All of a sudden Wade's play is forgotten. :facepalm

[HiphopRelated]

I call him a flavor. Of the month in the sense that he's what popular right now. He's at the height of his game. But as his career winds down, I feel he will settle into the right spot.
He's been a 25 ppg player for 8 years...perennial allstar/all nba player and has shown no signs of slowing. Your assertion of some temporary "flavor" has no foundation.

There are literally only 5 SGs in history that are even in his bracket and his career is only just over half done.

Jordan
Kobe
West
Drexler
Iverson

[D-Wade316]

He's been a 25 ppg player for 8 years...perennial allstar/all nba player and has shown no signs of slowing. Your assertion of some temporary "flavor" has no foundation.
That despite 1 and a half year of injury. In fact, he never has been the "flavor". He never gets any media love after all.

I kinda like it that way. It keeps him motivated. He never really cares for the regular season awards.

[Andrei89]

Iverson used to be a Pg until he took an arrow to the knee
:lol :lol :lol

[97 bulls]

He's not and probably never was or never will be. The only time he get media love was back in 06-07 before the injury. It has been uphill battle since then. Even after that Finals against the Mavs, everybody was talking how Lebron choked, etc. All of a sudden Wade's play is forgotten. :facepalm
The fact that no one really blames him for the heats demise says a lot about how well he played offensively. But the fact is they lost. To a team they were heavily favored to beat.


I personally think james gets too much credit for the heats loss. I would love to hear from a wade supporter as to why wade didn't defend terry or berea when they were making a mockery of the heats defense.

[MochaUdoka]

Wade is not a top 3 SG. If he continues to be dominant while the Heat win multiple championships then he will certainly enter the discussion. However, as of right now ...no.

[DMAVS41]

He's been a 25 ppg player for 8 years...perennial allstar/all nba player and has shown no signs of slowing. Your assertion of some temporary "flavor" has no foundation.

There are literally only 5 SGs in history that are even in his bracket and his career is only just over half done.

Jordan
Kobe
West
Drexler
Iverson

And he's just a better player than Iverson or Drexler....

[DMAVS41]

Now who is taking shit out of the context? Never thought you would pull this shit, you are pathetic.

Not at all. You said Kobe is superior to Hakeem because of team success. I call BS on that.

How is that me taking things out of context. Individually Hakeem was just a better player. He had better production on offense, on defense, and on the boards. He was also extremely clutch.

Furthermore, Hakeem proved that he could lead an average team to the title. He did so in both 94 and 95 really.

You need to look up context....you are giving Kobe way too many points in this comparison for having more rings.

[DMAVS41]

The fact that no one really blames him for the heats demise says a lot about how well he played offensively. But the fact is they lost. To a team they were heavily favored to beat.


I personally think james gets too much credit for the heats loss. I would love to hear from a wade supporter as to why wade didn't defend terry or berea when they were making a mockery of the heats defense.

LOL...Wade was too busy protecting the rim and playing weak side help in the paint.

And doubling Dirk when he turned his back to the basket.

[Hank]

LOL...Wade was too busy protecting the rim and playing weak side help in the paint.

And doubling Dirk when he turned his back to the basket.

Its kinda ridiculous that you have to answer that and state the obvious. Anyone who watched the games would know this.

But I digress.

Wade was a total beast as a rim protector defensively and a rebounder in the playoffs - look what he did in the Bulls series on defense and rebounding in the paint down low like a maniac. Same for the Dallas series. The guy looked like a fine power forward at times. Playing like he was 6 foot 9 challenging big men and blocking them, and outbounding them consistently.

Altering so many shots from big men with his spectacular defense. Shots that resulted in misses and added possessions for his team

ignore the idiots who dont have a clue about the game of basketball

[Vragrant]

In terms of ability and impact I think Wade is the second best SG next to Jordan. Although Bryant/West are ahead of him at this point.

He just doesn't have the accolades (due to media bias and circumstance) and the longevity yet (which will come in time). I just think Wade is a better all round player than Bryant. He's a high volume scorer who can score on high efficiency, plus he will also give you great defense with better passing and playmaking than Bryant does. He also performs better against elite defenses in the playoffs as well.

I haven't seen West enough to critique his game, but I'm well aware of his accomplishments.

Bryant is rightfully number 2 and you can interchange West for him as well if you consider West a SG.

[97 bulls]

LOL...Wade was too busy protecting the rim and playing weak side help in the paint.

And doubling Dirk when he turned his back to the basket.
Lol weakside? On who? Chandler?

Dirk wasnt really posting up to the point that you can use it in your argument.

[DMAVS41]

Lol weakside? On who? Chandler?

Dirk wasnt really posting up to the point that you can use it in your argument.

What? Wade was routinely trying to protect the paint on defense. Do you understand how much the Heat asked of Wade and Lebron defensively throughout the year?

Its absurd to criticize Wade for his defense. Not all of his rotations resulted in a great block, but a good number of them did. The point is that you can't be in two places at once....although Wade is often so good defensively that it looks like it.

But here again you probably think 1 on 1 defense matters more....:facepalm

But not surprising coming from you....

Pippen >>>>>> Magic...Right? :roll:

[Hank]

In terms of ability and impact I think Wade is the second best SG next to Jordan.

He just doesn't have the accolades (due to media bias and circumstance) and the longevity yet (which will come in time).

I just think Wade is a better all round player than Bryant. He's a high volume scorer who can score on high efficiency, plus he will also give you great defense with better passing and playmaking than Bryant does. He also performs better against elite defenses in the playoffs as well.

.

agreed

[97 bulls]

What? Wade was routinely trying to protect the paint on defense. Do you understand how much the Heat asked of Wade and Lebron defensively throughout the year?

Its absurd to criticize Wade for his defense. Not all of his rotations resulted in a great block, but a good number of them did. The point is that you can't be in two places at once....although Wade is often so good defensively that it looks like it.

But here again you probably think 1 on 1 defense matters more....:facepalm

But not surprising coming from you....

Pippen >>>>>> Magic...Right? :roll:
Lol my stance on pippen struck a nerve with you. This is the seecond time you've brought him up. Let's stay on topic this time.

My reference to wades defense is based only on what happened in the nba finals. I just felt that as a leader, he should've took on that assignment seeing as how the mavs guards were killing them.

But I don't understand why you continue to say I value man defense as much as offense. I said a player that's good at man defense only is a "specialist". And isn't comparable. To a scorer like carmello anothny (your example). I used the comparison of a player that's a man defender only like bruse bowen and compared him to a player that's an offensive specialists like steve kerr. A better comparison opposite to anthony would be bill russell or dennis rodman.

[DMAVS41]

Lol my stance on pippen struck a nerve with you. This is the seecond time you've brought him up. Let's stay on topic this time.

My reference to wades defense is based only on what happened in the nba finals. I just felt that as a leader, he should've took on that assignment seeing as how the mavs guards were killing them.

But I don't understand why you continue to say I value man defense as much as offense. I said a player that's good at man defense only is a "specialist". And isn't comparable. To a scorer like carmello anothny (your example). I used the comparison of a player that's a man defender only like bruse bowen and compared him to a player that's an offensive specialists like steve kerr. A better comparison opposite to anthony would be bill russell or dennis rodman.

LOL...leader? Players don't just get to pick their defensive assignment. Wade was being asked to do something because he was capable of doing it and he needed to do it for the team.

Its not like Spo just decided to tell Wade not to play defense. He had him doing other things. And those other things were weak side and paint/rim protection. I thought he did a great job actually.

And I bring up Pippen vs Magic because we just see the game so differently. You think Wade is nothing special. I think he's one of the best guards ever.

You think Wade played poor defense in the finals. I thought he played routinely great defense...at least until his injury in game 5.

You think Pippen was better than Magic....I don't think its remotely close.

You have to learn that we just see the game much differently. So stop coming on here and saying a bunch of crap because it just means nothing to me.

[IGotACoolStory]

What the other guy said, he's just missing the personal accolades and that's with a Finals MVP and carrying a team on his back to win a championship.

[97 bulls]

LOL...leader? Players don't just get to pick their defensive assignment. Wade was being asked to do something because he was capable of doing it and he needed to do it for the team.

Its not like Spo just decided to tell Wade not to play defense. He had him doing other things. And those other things were weak side and paint/rim protection. I thought he did a great job actually.

And I bring up Pippen vs Magic because we just see the game so differently. You think Wade is nothing special. I think he's one of the best guards ever.

You think Wade played poor defense in the finals. I thought he played routinely great defense...at least until his injury in game 5.

You think Pippen was better than Magic....I don't think its remotely close.

You have to learn that we just see the game much differently. So stop coming on here and saying a bunch of crap because it just means nothing to me.
A player like wade can step up and say hey let me check this guy. I never said he played bad defense. I said I wish he would've took on that responsibilty and not leave it to james. The mavs post players aren't that good.

But I never said wade was nothing special. I said he isn't top 3. There nothing he's donne that will trump west or kobe. Can he eventually? Absolutely. But not yet.

PS

That's three times you brought up pippen. Bless your heart.

[305Baller]

there is always Kobe's 81 points to consider.

[97 bulls]

there is always Kobe's 81 points to consider.
81 pts be damned, wade isn't and shouldn't be ranked higher than kobe.

Kobes got the rings, the mvp, more finals mvps, more all-nba and all-defense teams more sscoring titles, and longevity.

[305Baller]

81 pts be damned, wade isn't and shouldn't be ranked higher than kobe.

Kobes got the rings, the mvp, more finals mvps, more all-nba and all-defense teams more sscoring titles, and longevity.

but lets say that Wade matches or surpasses some or all of Kobe's stats except 81.

How much does that 81 factor into the equation?

That is as close to Wilt's 100 as it is going to get in the modern era.

Of course I hope I am wrong.

[97 bulls]

but lets say that Wade matches or surpasses some or all of Kobe's stats except 81.

How much does that 81 factor into the equation?

That is as close to Wilt's 100 as it is going to get in the modern era.

Of course I hope I am wrong.
I don't see wade winning an mvp with james there. Bottomline is he won't reach kobes accolades. He has a beat on west as far as championships.

[305Baller]

I don't see wade winning an mvp with james there. Bottomline is he won't reach kobes accolades. He has a beat on west as far as championships.

so Wade's mission is clear = 125 points in 1 game :D

[eliteballer]

Wade is 30, he's not going to get close to Kobe

[Jacks3]

Wade will never catch Kobe. Dude is already 30.

Kobe has the better peak,prime,longevity,accolades/accomplishments,team success, far better skill-set etc etc. He has no shot....especially considering the fact that he's now a side-sick to the obviously superior LeBron James. He'll forever be overshadowed by his greater peers in Kobe and LBJ. Deal with it, Wade stans.

[D-Wade316]

Its kinda ridiculous that you have to answer that and state the obvious. Anyone who watched the games would know this.

But I digress.

Wade was a total beast as a rim protector defensively and a rebounder in the playoffs - look what he did in the Bulls series on defense and rebounding in the paint down low like a maniac. Same for the Dallas series. The guy looked like a fine power forward at times. Playing like he was 6 foot 9 challenging big men and blocking them, and outbounding them consistently.

Altering so many shots from big men with his spectacular defense. Shots that resulted in misses and added possessions for his team

ignore the idiots who dont have a clue about the game of basketball
Unspoken truth. :applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

What is the deal with Jerry West, this guy could not dribble left, he could not be that great. Why should he rank so high?

:violin:

Lets see here:

"His nicknames include "Mr. Clutch," for his ability to make a big play in a clutch situation, such as his famous buzzer-beating 60-foot shot that tied Game 3 of the 1970 NBA Finals against the New York Knicks"

He only tied the game, but a legendary shot I am sure.

"The Logo" in reference to his silhouette being incorporated into the NBA logo.


Logos should not have anything to do with it, does this suggest that because he is the logo he must linger around the 3-5 spot until the current nba logo is retired? (a sad day indeed if that ever happened)

"West holds the NBA record for the highest points per game average in a playoff series with 46.3"

ok, ok... good stuff...

what else ?

Apparently you didn't see Jerry West, nor the NBA of that day. It's real easy to knock somebody you never saw. You got no idea what impact Jerry West had on basketball.

First off - not only was there no cable television, in many parts of America there was no national television. At all. The NBA wasn't a well-known sport outside of the Northeast, and if you didn't live in a city that had a team, well you figured basketball was a high school game.
Guys that loved basketball had to read the newspapers & the sports magazines, that was the only way they had to keep up with the NBA.

But Jerry West was enormously popular, not just in the western half of the United States, but all over the world. The only guy who had more impact on ticket sales - for a decade - was Wilt Chamberlain. West spread the game across the country. The excitement in an arena when Jerry ran on the court, buddy you got no idea unless you were there.

Basketball coaches at every level held up Jerry West as the perfect example of a guard. His footwork was impeccable, his passes were razors, his jumpshot was perfection, his defense was honestly awe-inspiring at times. West was 6'3, but his shirtsleeve length was the same as Chamberlain's. A normal NBA level pass was not ever going to get to a guy West was guarding.
His teams went to the Finals 9 times. You should stop and think what kind of will power it takes to do that.

West & Oscar were the best guards I ever saw right up to Jordan & Drexler. That includes a lot of great players.

I don't know where you get the idea Jerry West couldn't dribble left, but that's baloney. Ray Allen can't dunk, either.

[Vybe173]

Maybe....

Can we wait till his career is over and then post this questions again?

[97 bulls]

Its kinda ridiculous that you have to answer that and state the obvious. Anyone who watched the games would know this.

But I digress.

Wade was a total beast as a rim protector defensively and a rebounder in the playoffs - look what he did in the Bulls series on defense and rebounding in the paint down low like a maniac. Same for the Dallas series. The guy looked like a fine power forward at times. Playing like he was 6 foot 9 challenging big men and blocking them, and outbounding them consistently.

Altering so many shots from big men with his spectacular defense. Shots that resulted in misses and added possessions for his team

ignore the idiots who dont have a clue about the game of basketball
You're not even a real heat fan you fell off the face of the earth when they lost. Its obvious you don't know jack about basketball.

[Scholar]

Maybe by the end of his career, sure, but I'd rank Jerry West above DWade in the all-time SG list.

[bizil]

In my book, if Wade is to get to number 3 on the GOAT SG list, then that's a hell of a feat. For him to even think about catching Kobe, he will have to accumulate more rings. And start having peak level seasons that are as good or damn close to Kobe. Kobe at his peak is a top 6-7 player of all time peak level wise. I think only MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, and maybe Shaq were as awesome peak level wise. And in total domination of both sides of ball, only MJ is better than Kobe for perimeter players. As great as Wade is, he's not only Kobe's level peak wise. And Kobe's resume is a very epic one as well. When u have the peak level excellence, longevity being great, and resume that Kobe has, it seem MJ and Kobe will reign supreme for GOAT SG's for damn near eternity!

[DMAVS41]

In my book, if Wade is to get to number 3 on the GOAT SG list, then that's a hell of a feat. For him to even think about catching Kobe, he will have to accumulate more rings. And start having peak level seasons that are as good or damn close to Kobe. Kobe at his peak is a top 6-7 player of all time peak level wise. I think only MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, and maybe Shaq were as awesome peak level wise. And in total domination of both sides of ball, only MJ is better than Kobe for perimeter players. As great as Wade is, he's not only Kobe's level peak wise. And Kobe's resume is a very epic one as well. When u have the peak level excellence, longevity being great, and resume that Kobe has, it seem MJ and Kobe will reign supreme for GOAT SG's for damn near eternity!

Kobe was a better peak scorer....don't agree about the other stuff though. Wade as a passer, rebounder, and defender was as good as Kobe at his peak.

And Wade has proven to be unstoppable in the playoffs against the best teams...Kobe really hasn't.

In order for Wade to challenge Kobe and West all time he'll have to play another 7 or 8 years and win 2 or 3 more titles.

People have Bird over Kobe and West....and his longevity wasn't great...

I just don't think people understand how good Wade has been historically over his first 8 years. The big thing holding him back is recognition for his great play. He gets snubbed in MVP and all nba voting every year. I mean....this is a player that was a title last year away from being without a doubt in the top 15 or so range of players all time. But nobody outside of Wade fans really understand this.

If Wade ends up with career averages around 24/5/5 (regular season and playoffs) and his standard high efficiency with 3 or 4 rings? He's right there competing for the 2nd best sg of all time.

That is a big "if" at this point, but its certainly possible.

[bizil]

Kobe was a better peak scorer....don't agree about the other stuff though. Wade as a passer, rebounder, and defender was as good as Kobe at his peak.

And Wade has proven to be unstoppable in the playoffs against the best teams...Kobe really hasn't.

In order for Wade to challenge Kobe and West all time he'll have to play another 7 or 8 years and win 2 or 3 more titles.

People have Bird over Kobe and West....and his longevity wasn't great...

I just don't think people understand how good Wade has been historically over his first 8 years. The big thing holding him back is recognition for his great play. He gets snubbed in MVP and all nba voting every year. I mean....this is a player that was a title last year away from being without a doubt in the top 15 or so range of players all time. But nobody outside of Wade fans really understand this.

If Wade ends up with career averages around 24/5/5 (regular season and playoffs) and his standard high efficiency with 3 or 4 rings? He's right there competing for the 2nd best sg of all time.

That is a big "if" at this point, but its certainly possible.

Once again I realize how great DWade is. Kobe at his best defensively vs. Wade at his best, I would lean to Kobe. Passing wise u can say Wade is better by the numbers, but Kobe played in the triangle offense. Kobe has posted several 5 or 6 assist seasons. But if u think Wade is a better passer fair enough.

Rebounding wise, Kobe has posted many 5 and 6 rebound seasons. Wade rebounds at a similar clip than Kobe, Kobe has a 6.9 rebound season. Wade's high is 6.4 boards a game. So if anything it's a tie or it goes Kobe's way.

So if anything, Kobe's dominance scoring gives him the edge over Wade, even though Wade is a dominant, alpha dog scorer. If know hoops, most realize in the all around sense than Kobe and Wade are damn close in ability. But Kobe's scoring arsenal and ruthlessness sets him apart from every other SG other than MJ. The key is the scoring arsenal, cause D Wade can be very ruthless as well as he's proved. But peak Kobe's scoring arsenal combined with his great all around game is a combo that Wade can't quite touch. In the all around sense, they are very close. It's the scoring that gives Kobe the edge, even though Wade is an all time premier scorer from the SG. It's this advantage that pushes MJ and Kobe past Wade. Which in turn gives Kobe the nod peak value wise as well. NOT JUST PEAK SCORER, BUT BETTER PEAK PLAYER FLAT OUT!

[DMAVS41]

Once again I realize how great DWade is. Kobe at his best defensively vs. Wade at his best, I would lean to Kobe. Passing wise u can say Wade is better by the numbers, but Kobe played in the triangle offense. Kobe has posted several 5 or 6 assist seasons. But if u think Wade is a better passer fair enough.

Rebounding wise, Kobe has posted many 5 and 6 rebound seasons. Wade rebounds at a similar clip than Kobe, Kobe has a 6.9 rebound season. Wade's high is 6.4 boards a game. So if anything it's a tie or it goes Kobe's way.

So if anything, Kobe's dominance scoring gives him the edge over Wade, even though Wade is a dominant, alpha dog scorer. If know hoops, most realize in the all around sense than Kobe and Wade are damn close in ability. But Kobe's scoring arsenal and ruthlessness sets him apart from every other SG other than MJ. The key is the scoring arsenal, cause D Wade can be very ruthless as well as he's proved. But peak Kobe's scoring arsenal combined with his great all around game is a combo that Wade can't quite touch. In the all around sense, they are very close. It's the scoring that gives Kobe the edge, even though Wade is an all time premier scorer from the SG. It's this advantage that pushes MJ and Kobe past Wade. Which in turn gives Kobe the nod peak value wise as well. NOT JUST PEAK SCORER, BUT BETTER PEAK PLAYER FLAT OUT!

I get what you are saying. I just disagree. Especially when Wade is more efficient and harder to stop because he's the best rim attacker at the guard position since MJ.

I do think Wade is the better passer. Not just in skill, but in terms of looking to create more and he is a more willing passer as well. I also think Wade is a better teammate and team player.

I just think its extremely close when you compare them just as players. Obviously Kobe deserves to be ranked over Wade all time, but just as players I just don't see much evidence to say Kobe is better.

I mean. Even if you cut off Kobe's first 2 years in the playoffs...

Kobe is something like 27/5/5 on 45/34/82 55% TS

If you remove Wade's rookie year in playoffs...

Wade is something like 27/6/6 on 49/32/79 57% TS


And again, Wade has proven to play the elite teams/defenses much better than Kobe.

Superior career for Kobe? sure
Superior player for Kobe? not much evidence of that

[kidachi]

Wade is the most overrated player here on ISH, the guy at best is 4th on the SG list and will be lucky to stay there in 10 years.

**** outta here. and I'm not a homer. you're just a dumbass

[NumberSix]

In my book, if Wade is to get to number 3 on the GOAT SG list, then that's a hell of a feat. For him to even think about catching Kobe, he will have to accumulate more rings.
And that's where I stopped reading.

Look, I love Kobe, and the Lakers are my all time favorite franchise in any sport, but Kobe LEAD his team to 1 championship, ARGUABLY 2. Wade has already lead his team to 1, and Kobe has NEVER had a finals performance like '06 Wade.

The Kobe vs. Wade comparison is a lot closer than most would like to believe. If you take away TEAM achievements and look at individual production
achievements, I think Wade actually has the edge.

Now when you say he needs to catch Kobe get number 3, if you insinuating that Kobe Bryant is #3 and Jerry West is #2, get off of that. Jerry West is not better than Kobe.

[bizil]

I get what you are saying. I just disagree. Especially when Wade is more efficient and harder to stop because he's the best rim attacker at the guard position since MJ.

I do think Wade is the better passer. Not just in skill, but in terms of looking to create more and he is a more willing passer as well. I also think Wade is a better teammate and team player.

I just think its extremely close when you compare them just as players. Obviously Kobe deserves to be ranked over Wade all time, but just as players I just don't see much evidence to say Kobe is better.

I mean. Even if you cut off Kobe's first 2 years in the playoffs...

Kobe is something like 27/5/5 on 45/34/82 55% TS

If you remove Wade's rookie year in playoffs...

Wade is something like 27/6/6 on 49/32/79 57% TS


And again, Wade has proven to play the elite teams/defenses much better than Kobe.

Superior career for Kobe? sure
Superior player for Kobe? not much evidence of that

There are facets where Wade is better than Kobe. I've ALWAYS felt athletic ablity wise and attacking the rim that Wade was more similar to MJ than Kobe was. But Kobe is an all time great slasher as well, but Wade and MJ get to the hoop faster. I disagree with Wade being harder to stop than Kobe scoring. Kobe's scoring arsenal combined with great athletic ablity trumps Wade's superior speed. Kobe has so many counter moves it's not funny. Kobe's footwork is so amazing it's not even funny.

In my book there is MORE THAN ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO INDICATE KOBE IS SUPERIOR TO WADE! I'm not saying Wade isn't close because he is. What it comes down to is Kobe's craftiness and scoring arsenal. And Kobe at his peak still qualified as a freak athlete. Wade just happened to have even more speed and quickness than Kobe. But Kobe is 6'6 or 6'7 while Wade is around 6'4. In the all around sense they are very close. But it's the small things that give Kobe the edge.

Wade may be a more willing passer, but Kobe is still a great passer. A more willing passer is fine, but it's not enough to tilt the edge to Wade over Kobe. And many willing passers are like that because THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO BE A DOMINANT SCORER OR ALPHA DOG! Now of course that doesn't apply to Wade because he can do it all and then some. But being a willing passer can be overrated at times. Other than PG, it's not always a prerequisite for the other positions to be a great and willing passer. When it comes down to a Wade and Kobe argument, both are great passers. Wade being more willing isn't enough for me to rank Wade above Kobe peak value wise. I never said Wade wasn't close, but I prefer Kobe. If anything the eye test and Kob's scoring arsenal swing it is way. As all around players it's damn close.

[D-Wade316]

Kobe was a better peak scorer....don't agree about the other stuff though. Wade as a passer, rebounder, and defender was as good as Kobe at his peak.

And Wade has proven to be unstoppable in the playoffs against the best teams...Kobe really hasn't.

In order for Wade to challenge Kobe and West all time he'll have to play another 7 or 8 years and win 2 or 3 more titles.

People have Bird over Kobe and West....and his longevity wasn't great...

I just don't think people understand how good Wade has been historically over his first 8 years. The big thing holding him back is recognition for his great play. He gets snubbed in MVP and all nba voting every year. I mean....this is a player that was a title last year away from being without a doubt in the top 15 or so range of players all time. But nobody outside of Wade fans really understand this.

If Wade ends up with career averages around 24/5/5 (regular season and playoffs) and his standard high efficiency with 3 or 4 rings? He's right there competing for the 2nd best sg of all time.

That is a big "if" at this point, but its certainly possible.
:cheers:

[bizil]

And that's where I stopped reading.

Look, I love Kobe, and the Lakers are my all time favorite franchise in any sport, but Kobe LEAD his team to 1 championship, ARGUABLY 2. Wade has already lead his team to 1, and Kobe has NEVER had a finals performance like '06 Wade.

The Kobe vs. Wade comparison is a lot closer than most would like to believe. If you take away TEAM achievements and look at individual production
achievements, I think Wade actually has the edge.

Now when you say he needs to catch Kobe get number 3, if you insinuating that Kobe Bryant is #3 and Jerry West is #2, get off of that. Jerry West is not better than Kobe.

For starters, u can have more than one alpha dog on a team. Shaq just happened to be the alpha dog. Kobe contributed so much to those Laker teams, was already a top 5 player in the L before the threepeat was over, and was the best all around player on the Lakers. The Lakers don't win a ring without Kobe on that squad flat out. If u look at the great teams of all time, they had multiple HOFers and alpha dogs. So what if Shaq was the number one option, Kobe was still an elite player who grew into the best player in the L. Kobe won two rings as the man so he proved he can win WITHOUT Shaq.

For Wade to pass Kobe on the GOAT list, he will most likely have to tie or pass Kobe by in rings. The reason why is because Kobe set the bar so high at the SG. It's about the total resume for GOAT (team accolades, solo accolades, numbers, longevity being great). If u read my posts, I said Wade is my number three SG peak value wise. In GOAT terms, I have Wade number 4 behind MJ, Kobe, and West. I NEVER SAID WEST WAS OVER KOBE ON A GOAT LIST! Kobe is the #2 GOAT SG. Where did I say West was over Kobe?

Individual production wise, we will see how Wade's career goes. He has edges on Kobe in career average for scoring and assists. But Kobe's more dominant seasons are more impressive than Wade's most dominant seasons. Kobe has 35.4 scoring season. Kobe has had 81 points in a game. So how exactly is wade more dominant individually? Kobe spent a couple of seasons straight outta HS being spoon fed by Del Harris. When actually Kobe could have been doing more. He had to split the scoring pie with Nick, Eddie, and Shaq as well. Wade got to come right in and be the dominant player on his team from day one. So it gives him an edge on career averages.

[305Baller]

More impressive: Kobe 81 or Wade 06 Finals?

[NumberSix]

And that's where I stopped reading.

Look, I love Kobe, and the Lakers are my all time favorite franchise in any sport, but Kobe LEAD his team to 1 championship, ARGUABLY 2. Wade has already lead his team to 1, and Kobe has NEVER had a finals performance like '06 Wade.

The Kobe vs. Wade comparison is a lot closer than most would like to believe. If you take away TEAM achievements and look at individual production
achievements, I think Wade actually has the edge.

Now when you say he needs to catch Kobe get number 3, if you insinuating that Kobe Bryant is #3 and Jerry West is #2, get off of that. Jerry West is not better than Kobe.
Look at this. lol
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9325/clownap.jpg

Some clown negs me and tells me I don't love Kobe because of my above post.

In a post where I said that I love Kobe, the lakers are my alltime favorite franchise, and that Kobe is flat out better than Jerry West. But apparently that's not enough. The simple fact that i said the Kobe/Wade comparison is close, that means I don't like Kobe. Unless you're a relentless fanboy sack sucker, you're a Kobe hater who needs to be negged.


CLOWN!!!

[bizil]

And just because some of us think Kobe is better than Wade DOESN'T mean it's not close. Or that I don't see how great D Wade is. Wade could very well challenge Kobe for number two GOAT SG down the road. But we are talking right now. And as of now, Wade has some things to do in order to even have a chance at catching Kobe GOAT wise. As it stands, at worst he will be number three on the GOAT SG list. Kobe is still only 33 and a great player. So he's gonna put up more stats, even though he's not at his peak or absolute prime. Kobe could very well end up number 2 on the all time scoring list, another ring or two as well. So if u are coming for Kobe, u gotta come close to this level of accomplishments.

[jlitt]

jwest and ai are >

kobe just passed jwest recently.

[DMAVS41]

There are facets where Wade is better than Kobe. I've ALWAYS felt athletic ablity wise and attacking the rim that Wade was more similar to MJ than Kobe was. But Kobe is an all time great slasher as well, but Wade and MJ get to the hoop faster. I disagree with Wade being harder to stop than Kobe scoring. Kobe's scoring arsenal combined with great athletic ablity trumps Wade's superior speed. Kobe has so many counter moves it's not funny. Kobe's footwork is so amazing it's not even funny.

In my book there is MORE THAN ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO INDICATE KOBE IS SUPERIOR TO WADE! I'm not saying Wade isn't close because he is. What it comes down to is Kobe's craftiness and scoring arsenal. And Kobe at his peak still qualified as a freak athlete. Wade just happened to have even more speed and quickness than Kobe. But Kobe is 6'6 or 6'7 while Wade is around 6'4. In the all around sense they are very close. But it's the small things that give Kobe the edge.

Wade may be a more willing passer, but Kobe is still a great passer. A more willing passer is fine, but it's not enough to tilt the edge to Wade over Kobe. And many willing passers are like that because THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO BE A DOMINANT SCORER OR ALPHA DOG! Now of course that doesn't apply to Wade because he can do it all and then some. But being a willing passer can be overrated at times. Other than PG, it's not always a prerequisite for the other positions to be a great and willing passer. When it comes down to a Wade and Kobe argument, both are great passers. Wade being more willing isn't enough for me to rank Wade above Kobe peak value wise. I never said Wade wasn't close, but I prefer Kobe. If anything the eye test and Kob's scoring arsenal swing it is way. As all around players it's damn close.


:cheers:

[D-Wade316]

More impressive: Kobe 81 or Wade 06 Finals?
06 Finals. Not even close. 81 points against the worst defensive team. :facepalm I'd take 6 games of total domination in the climax of the season over a single season performance.

[bizil]

I think when it comes to the GOAT SG's that MJ, Kobe,and Wade are on another level from West, AI, Gervin, Drexler, Ray Ray, Pete, or a Monroe. It's because those three have a blend of freak athletic ability, all around game, and scoring prowess that can't be touched. The others are great players in their own right. Jerry West set the blueprint for the great SG who excelled at all facets. West was a great scorer, passer, and defender at SG who was the ultimate alpha dog. West was even a very athletic at 6'2 as well.

Drexler was a great all around player, great scorer, and was a freak athlete. But MJ, Kobe, and Wade were more fundamentally sound and polished. And as great as Drexler was scoring and being an alpha dog, he wasn't as great it like West, MJ, Wade, and Kobe. Gervin in terms of an alpha dog scorer is right up there with any SG. But he lacks big time in the all around sense. Pete in terms of scoring and passing as a package is as good as it gets as SG. But he lacks the other things like defense to be on the level of the big three or four SG's. Ray is a very good all around player, an alpha dog level scorer, and very good athlete. But he's not as dominant as MJ, Kobe, and Wade. AI is a freak of nature and a tremendous scorer and passer. But his size limits him for doing things Wade, MJ, or Kobe can do. Monroe was a sick scorer and very good passer. But once again he lacks in other facets when compared to MJ, Kobe, and Wade.

So simply put, Wade is great enough to be on the playing field with MJ and Kobe. Frankly no other SG can make that claim. A guy like T Mac could have been up there and peak value wise is, but in GOAT terms he falls behind. Wade's resume has him in the GOAT talks. And his peak value has him up there in those talks too.

[bizil]

06 Finals. Not even close. 81 points against the worst defensive team. :facepalm I'd take 6 games of total domination in the climax of the season over a single season performance.

Wade's 06 Finals is the easy selection. This is when I really started putting his peak value just behind MJ and Kobe. He has a blend of alpha dog scoring, all around excellence, and athletic ability than have those three at the pinnacle.

[D-Wade316]

bizil, your giving Wade the recognition that he deserves but I feel you're underrating him as a scorer. I respect your opinion though. :cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

Apparently you didn't see Jerry West, nor the NBA of that day. It's real easy to knock somebody you never saw. You got no idea what impact Jerry West had on basketball.

First off - not only was there no cable television, in many parts of America there was no national television. At all. The NBA wasn't a well-known sport outside of the Northeast, and if you didn't live in a city that had a team, well you figured basketball was a high school game.
Guys that loved basketball had to read the newspapers & the sports magazines, that was the only way they had to keep up with the NBA.

But Jerry West was enormously popular, not just in the western half of the United States, but all over the world. The only guy who had more impact on ticket sales - for a decade - was Wilt Chamberlain. West spread the game across the country. The excitement in an arena when Jerry ran on the court, buddy you got no idea unless you were there.

Basketball coaches at every level held up Jerry West as the perfect example of a guard. His footwork was impeccable, his passes were razors, his jumpshot was perfection, his defense was honestly awe-inspiring at times. West was 6'3, but his shirtsleeve length was the same as Chamberlain's. A normal NBA level pass was not ever going to get to a guy West was guarding.
His teams went to the Finals 9 times. You should stop and think what kind of will power it takes to do that.

West & Oscar were the best guards I ever saw right up to Jordan & Drexler. That includes a lot of great players.

I don't know where you get the idea Jerry West couldn't dribble left, but that's baloney. Ray Allen can't dunk, either.

Props man, Logo is so underrated.

[bizil]

bizil, your giving Wade the recognition that he deserves but I feel you're underrating him as a scorer. I respect your opinion though. :cheers:

Oh no I'm not underrating his scoring at all. I'm just saying Kobe's scoring arsenal is superior to Wade's. Wade has a hell of an arsenal as well, I just feel MJ and Kobe have the two premier scoring arsenals of all time. Scoring arsenals and numbers are two different things. It's ultimately about the numbers u can put up. But if they are close as scorers (which Kobe and Wade are), the arsenal can be the tiebreaker. Inside the three point line, I feel MJ and Kobe have the premier arsenals of all time. Wade is capable of similar numbers, but his arsenal isn't as vast.

[jlauber]

I am so sick-and-tired of reading that West couldn't dribble with his left hand. Do this...go to YouTube, and get footage of Earl Monroe and Pete Maravich for example. Behind-the back dribbling (and passing), thru the legs dribbling (and passing), cross-over dribbling, you name it, they were doing it in the "West-era." Both of them would be stars in TODAY's NBA.

Now, think about this. NEITHER were EVER considered on West's level.

And other's here have covered the rest of "West-saga." Multiple 30+ ppg post-seasons, including a 46.3 playoff series, and a 38.6 ppg Finals. And how about a game seven, in the NBA Finals, of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists?

Only a complete IDIOT would claim that "the Logo" would not be a star in TODAY's NBA.

[DMAVS41]

I am so sick-and-tired of reading that West couldn't dribble with his left hand. Do this...go to YouTube, and get footage of Earl Monroe and Pete Maravich for example. Behind-the back dribbling (and passing), thru the legs dribbling (and passing), cross-over dribbling, you name it, they were doing it in the "West-era." Both of them would be stars in TODAY's NBA.

Now, think about this. NEITHER were EVER considered on West's level.

And other's here have covered the rest of "West-saga." Multiple 30+ ppg post-seasons, including a 46.3 playoff series, and a 38.6 ppg Finals. And how about a game seven, in the NBA Finals, of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists?

Only a complete IDIOT would claim that "the Logo" would not be a star in TODAY's NBA.

Yea. Adaptation needs to be considered. If West had to dribble left...he would have.

You have to evaluate players on what they did against their peers during the time they played because its too hard to project across the years...let alone decades.

But if people want to take that stance...then fine. Kobe and Wade would have been terrible because they literally would have been called for a carry every time they dribbled. If there is no room for adaptation, then Kobe and Wade wouldn't even be able to play because they travel/carry so much based on the rules back then.

Adaptation has to be accounted for.

[Legends66NBA7]

I am so sick-and-tired of reading that West couldn't dribble with his left hand. Do this...go to YouTube, and get footage of Earl Monroe and Pete Maravich for example. Behind-the back dribbling (and passing), thru the legs dribbling (and passing), cross-over dribbling, you name it, they were doing it in the "West-era." Both of them would be stars in TODAY's NBA.

Now, think about this. NEITHER were EVER considered on West's level.

And other's here have covered the rest of "West-saga." Multiple 30+ ppg post-seasons, including a 46.3 playoff series, and a 38.6 ppg Finals. And how about a game seven, in the NBA Finals, of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists?

Only a complete IDIOT would claim that "the Logo" would not be a star in TODAY's NBA.

Preach on J.

I think West would adapt just fine.

[bizil]

I am so sick-and-tired of reading that West couldn't dribble with his left hand. Do this...go to YouTube, and get footage of Earl Monroe and Pete Maravich for example. Behind-the back dribbling (and passing), thru the legs dribbling (and passing), cross-over dribbling, you name it, they were doing it in the "West-era." Both of them would be stars in TODAY's NBA.

Now, think about this. NEITHER were EVER considered on West's level.

And other's here have covered the rest of "West-saga." Multiple 30+ ppg post-seasons, including a 46.3 playoff series, and a 38.6 ppg Finals. And how about a game seven, in the NBA Finals, of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists?

Only a complete IDIOT would claim that "the Logo" would not be a star in TODAY's NBA.

Good point! Maravich and Monroe were never on West's level. It's because West had the all around facets that those guys didn't have. West was dominant at all facets of the game. To be the key to ball handling it getting where u need to go and not turning over the ball. I've seen West handle the rock with both hands so I don't know what people are talking. Now did he show the dexterity that Pete did, no. But West CLEARLY had PG level handles and vision though.

U make a great point, Monroe, West, and Pete would all be great players today. Monroe and Pete were awesome. But when u have a guy who is a great alpha dog scorer AND great all around player, it's going to trump guys who are great alpha scorers mainly. Or in Pete's case a guy who is a great alpha dog scorer and great passer all in one.

[G-Funk]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.
:bowdown:

[La Frescobaldi]

Wade is probably 4th. I just don't see what makes him so great. His accolades are thhe ring, finals mvp and the scoring title. But in all honesty, he's had two great seasons. What's so special about the 3-4 injury plagued years? The so-so to terrible records? The debacle that was last year?

He's a flavor of the month to me.

wait. you don't think Wade is all that great........ yet you rank him 4th all time in NBA history.

Better than Sam Jones, who was the 1st scoring option at least half of his 10 rings.

Better than Clyde Drexler. Better than Pistol or Ray Ray or Ice Man. Better than Gail Goodrich. Better than DJ on the Sonics. Better than Pearl or Kevin Durant or Reggie or Joe Dumars or AI or Glove.

But he's not so great?

Nah man I won't argue about D Wade's spot (although there's some names on that list I could use to make a real solid argument) but to say he's not so great!!

that just don't make no sense

[IGOTGAME]

People in hear saying Wade has an argument for #2 sg of all time...lmao

[305Baller]

Iverson was no PG

[TheBigVeto]

Hell no.

Hondo, West, Ginobili are all much better than Wade.

[IGOTGAME]

Iverson was no PG

anyway you wanna spin it, Wade is way down the list now.

[CavaliersFTW]

I honestly can't think of anyone that could take that position other than Jerry West.

In my opinion it's:

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

Iverson was a point guard, like Derrick Rose is.

What will it take for him to surpass Jerry, Kobe and whoever else you think is above Wade? How many rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. will Wade need to be #1, # 2, #3 if you think West > Wade?
West >>>>>>>> Wade

[rs98762001]

The only way Wade will ever stack up to West is potentially in Finals series losses.

[97 bulls]

I have been saying for the longest, Wade is overrated.

[Heavincent]

Probably 4th best. Maybe 5th. He obviously won't ever get any higher than 3. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Kobe.

[SuperPippen]

West >>>>>>>> Wade

This, this, and more this.

[tpols]

People were overrating him when he was at his short lived peak.. but it will die out soon. Look how quick Tmac and Iverson went.. and both were comparable players. Quick, strong peaks with short primes(not rly Iverson.. hes just flat out underrated).

[QUIZZLE]

People putting Wade over AI need to run in front of traffic ASAP.

[Deuce Bigalow]

4th. Jordan, Bryant, West >

[WillyJakk]

If his shitty ass playoffs and now Finals performance hasn't convinced anyone that Wade is not ahead of Manu, I don't know what it'll take.

[Deuce Bigalow]

If his shitty ass playoffs and now Finals performance hasn't convinced anyone that Wade is not ahead of Manu, I don't know what it'll take.
manu? MANU??? :biggums:

[305Baller]

Wade's peak may be the 2nd best SG peak of all time, maybe 3rd behind Iverson..

:pimp:

[WillyJakk]

manu? MANU??? :biggums:

Let me guess, yet another guy that thinks putting up stats alone = GREATNESS.

Manu :coleman: at Dwyane Wade, Clyde Drexler, and Jerry West's 1 ring. At least collectively they have as many as him.

Wade still has a chance to win more but jeez, Manu didn't look this bad against the Thunder and he's 34.

[rs98762001]

Wade's peak may be the 2nd best SG peak of all time, maybe 3rd behind Iverson..

:pimp:
I don't know your posting well enough to know whether you're baiting the Kobe fanatics here or not. If so, well played. But objectively Wade has a very very long way to go to even match Bryant for second best. The fact that he's likely already on the downside of his career makes it unlikely he ever will.

[305Baller]

I don't know your posting well enough to know whether you're baiting the Kobe fanatics here or not. If so, well played. But objectively Wade has a very very long way to go to even match Bryant for second best. The fact that he's likely already on the downside of his career makes it unlikely he ever will.

Thats why Im talking PEAK

Kobe has Wade by the balls career wise... as does West and others...

[Mr. Jabbar]

:roll:

[SuperPippen]

If his shitty ass playoffs and now Finals performance hasn't convinced anyone that Wade is not ahead of Manu, I don't know what it'll take.

Let's not get carried away. In spite of his disappointing performances so far in these playoffs, Manu still isn't close to Wade's level.

[La Frescobaldi]

Wade sitting around #4....

[esiotrot]

Let me guess, yet another guy that thinks putting up stats alone = GREATNESS.

Manu :coleman: at Dwyane Wade, Clyde Drexler, and Jerry West's 1 ring. At least collectively they have as many as him.

Wade still has a chance to win more but jeez, Manu didn't look this bad against the Thunder and he's 34.

Did this dude just say Manu is better than Wade? :biggums: :coleman:

[bdreason]

"West holds the NBA record for the highest points per game average in a playoff series with 46.3"

ok, ok... good stuff...

what else ?


46ppg for a guy who couldn't dribble left. Pretty impressive.






And no, Wade isn't ranked above Jerry West.

[willds09]

:roll:

[tontoz]

Wade is only 31 but has already missed 134 games in his career.

[2006suns]

i'd say yes because he was able to get his biggest threat to join him to win him one (last) ring before eventually retiring.

[The Choken One]

West > Wade

children please, just because you never actually watched West doesn't mean he's not better.

[HiphopRelated]

West > Wade

children please, just because you never actually watched West doesn't mean he's not better.
That goes 2 both ways

Let's not overate the black and white TV era

[Raymone]

5th to 7th if he's lucky. LeBron carrying Wade to more championships won't boost him up.

[Dresta]

West > Wade

children please, just because you never actually watched West doesn't mean he's not better.
You blatantly never watched West either - so how did you come to your judgement on a guy who has failed so many times without even seeing him?

[Rocketswin2013]

Yes

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't see how Wade can pass West at this point, he honestly looks finished

[305Baller]

Peak? Yeah. Career? West wins probably.

Oh wait. Ive answered this thread already.

[MadeFromDust]

Eh Kolby is really SF

[TheBigVeto]

Hell no, he's not even top 10.

[NumberSix]

1.) Jordan
2.) Kobe

3.) West

Nope.
West is ahead of Kobe.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe was a better player than West was, but West's impact in his own era is nearly unmatched by any other perimeter player of any era.

[jzek]

Yes, if we're talking about 2006.

No, if we're talking about career.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hell no, he's not even top 10.

Lol. I'll spot you Jordan, Kobe, and West. Name me 7 more SG's better than Wade

[unbreakable]

manu ginobili has surpassed wade this year on the all time list..

manu is a gold medalist, multiple champion, and has amazing longevity while wade is finished at 31, manu just dominated the heat at 36

[fpliii]

The OP's avatar still weirds me out. Those two dudes look so similar.