Our bench

[franchize]

So I'm excited like most of you that we have arguably the best frount court in the league. However, I did some analysis and we may have the worst bench in the league. Other than Shumpert,an unproven rookie, there isn't one player on our bench who can create their own shot. We HAVE to address this. In my opinion, this is what makes or breaks GM's. With big name free agents, it's essentially a money and recruiting battle. A sales pitch. To me, the mark of a truly talented GM is the ones who have an eye for a talented supporting cast. Can someone please explain to me how Al Thornton doesn't have a job but Jared Jeffries does? I mean it isn't even a comparison. I'm so tired of us signing guys who are either one dimensional or total bums. We let guys like Pietrus come and go thru waivers and the Celtics swept him up. But we go and claim Novak off of waivers? I dont mind getting Novak if you have other playmakers to set him up. Right now,Shumpert and Bill Walker are probably our best bench players. That's a huge problem. It's ok to have 1 or 2 guys who do dirty work but aren't really tht talented. Our roster is littered with them though. We have about 5 players that probably wouldnt be in the league if they werent on the Knicks. That's sad and scary!

P.S. SIGN AL THORNTON!!!!!

[Sarcastic]

Hey, at least we aren't Charlotte who barely has a starting 5.

[knickscity]

Our bench isn't as bad it may seem.

I just think our projected starting backcourt would be best if both of them came off the bench, which would help bolster our bench.

Our guys just aren't terrible, but they aren't household names yet.:D

[franchize]

Our bench isn't as bad it may seem.

I just think our projected starting backcourt would be best if both of them came off the bench, which would help bolster our bench.

Our guys just aren't terrible, but they aren't household names yet.:D

This coming from the guy who thinks Jared Jeffries is valuable :oldlol:
I mean let's call a spade a spade. He can't guard anybody, he's inept on offense and he shoots free throws as nbad as Shaq. He's about asuseful as the Packers punter.

[knickscity]

This coming from the guy who thinks Jared Jeffries is valuable :oldlol:
I mean let's call a spade a spade. He can't guard anybody, he's inept on offense and he shoots free throws as nbad as Shaq. He's about asuseful as the Packers punter.
Yep, I do, and for the vets min, I have no issue with him being here.

No different than how you view Sebastian Telfair.

I don't think he belongs in the NBA at all, but I know you do.:D

[franchize]

Sebastian Telfair is WAY better than Jared Jeffries. For starters, he can make a free throw.

[Rameek]

I wont join in on the who is worse convo...

..however the Knicks bench is pretty terrible. I really dont know if its pressing to add Thornton. They still have 1 roster spot left and the 2.5 mill. I dont think it will be wasted on that guy. At worse the veterans minimum which is no major loss to dump when a real NBA player becomes available.

[Clutch]

We don't have the worst bench in the league.

Our bench outplayed Nets bench.
Not only that but our bench outplayed their starters too :oldlol:

Shumpert and Harrellson may be unproven but they are solid bench players.Not good as Jamal Crawford but solid.
And we will also have Douglas coming off the bench when Baron gets healthy,

[bluechox2]

our bench has trigger happy players, its gonna be brutal the first couple games

[franchize]

Do I think Jeremy Lin is a solution to our problems? No But I'm glad we signed a guy who isn't 30+.


p.s. SIGN AL THORNTON!!!!!!

[Rameek]

We don't have the worst bench in the league.

Our bench outplayed Nets bench.
Not only that but our bench outplayed their starters too :oldlol:

Shumpert and Harrellson may be unproven but they are solid bench players.Not good as Jamal Crawford but solid.
And we will also have Douglas coming off the bench when Baron gets healthy,
i didnt realize the Knicks played the Nets to even make this comparison.

Boy making grand proclamations and you have seen these guys play how long?

I do know their are quite a few teams with terrible benches... We lose Shumpert no problem oh wait their is a problem... That lets you know that the bench is terrible at this point.

If and when Shumpert, Bibby and Boomdoggy comes back healthy then we have something working.

[knickscity]

I would love for this team to have a deep bench, but let's be honest.

Exactly how much would that cost, since we have the bulk of the cap locked up into one of the best frontlines in the NBA.?

The team has made a choice....they put a core together.

And a core that can compete.

Our bench will be full of ringchasers, youngsters who are unproven, and vets.

[franchize]

How much will it cost? The same we're paying the guys we have.For example, instead of getting guys like Bibby for the vet minimum, we could have gotten a guy like Ben Hansbrough for the league minimum. Everyone wants to say "it's a no risk signing" after we acquire an old bum. NO! There is a risk. That's a roster spot being taken up. That could be going to a young, hungry guy who's yet to get his chance to prove himself....or a talented guy who caught a bad break and wants to re-establish himself in the league. For every vet minimum guy we signed, that could be a league minimum guy with talent and a chip on their shoulder...ready to prove something. Look at a guy like Wesley Matthews. Undrafted and now a quality player. We look like the Colts and we all see what happened to them when they lost Peyton. You cannot play with 3 big time players and a bunch of guys from accounting.

[knickscity]

Franchize, you actually said the same thing I said.:D

[Rameek]

I made the same argument 2 years ago when people wanted a big 3. You can not just throw "guys from accountant" (AWESOME PHRASE) or "bodies that are warm" and think you can win. Its pressing to have talent and/or high basketball IQ guys.

This is the disadvantage of trying to build through Free Agency as opposed to drafting. The Knicks sold picks and gave away the world to buy a core. Buying this core (That didnt take discounts!) leaves no room to fill out the roster. The Knicks has to step up their draft game. I have no problem with Shumpert (as a SG) and Harrellson (as a hustle PF).

I think honestly the Knicks probably tried to get some guys of decent quality but having no cap space and no minutes available for most players makes it a very unattractive destination.

If you look at the teams with playoff aspirations I think only the Lakers have a worse bench.

The reality is this team will have a 2 year window with this core to get it done. If I am not mistaken Melo and Stat have player options coming up soon...

I hope this team gets close to the ECF for it to be successful.

[franchize]

I made the same argument 2 years ago when people wanted a big 3. You can not just throw "guys from accountant" (AWESOME PHRASE) or "bodies that are warm" and think you can win. Its pressing to have talent and/or high basketball IQ guys.

This is the disadvantage of trying to build through Free Agency as opposed to drafting. The Knicks sold picks and gave away the world to buy a core. Buying this core (That didnt take discounts!) leaves no room to fill out the roster. The Knicks has to step up their draft game. I have no problem with Shumpert (as a SG) and Harrellson (as a hustle PF).

I think honestly the Knicks probably tried to get some guys of decent quality but having no cap space and no minutes available for most players makes it a very unattractive destination.

If you look at the teams with playoff aspirations I think only the Lakers have a worse bench.

The reality is this team will have a 2 year window with this core to get it done. If I am not mistaken Melo and Stat have player options coming up soon...

I hope this team gets close to the ECF for it to be successful.
Sorry...I stopped reading after warm bodies :mad:

[franchize]

I think the misconception is that you have to have a bunch of money to get talented guys. There are talented guys out there for cheap. Problem is, GM's have become lazy. Instead of surrounding superstars with young talent. They get these guys who the NBA "analysts" call "serviceable" for their "veteran leadership" instead of using sound talent evaluation and scouting to formulate a solid team. How much scouting could have gone into acquiring Mike Bibby? How much research did you do when it came to Jared Jeffries? NONE. I think the NBA needs an infusion of young GM's. Youth worked in regards to coaches. Guys like Alexis Ajinca's talents will rot in the abyss while people like Brian Cardinal will always have a job. It's a damn shame. I'm so tired of all these "locker room" guys. End of the day, one or two is fine, but I don't need 5 or 6 guys who can't play to have jobs for their "leadership". I'll take an undeveloped young guy with potential over a veteran who's sucked for the last 3+ years any day of the week.


P.S. SIGN AL THORNTON!!!!!! (My mom used to tell me to talk things into fruition lol)

[percelloveknicks]

I think the misconception is that you have to have a bunch of money to get talented guys. There are talented guys out there for cheap. Problem is, GM's have become lazy. Instead of surrounding superstars with young talent. They get these guys who the NBA "analysts" call "serviceable" for their "veteran leadership" instead of using sound talent evaluation and scouting to formulate a solid team. How much scouting could have gone into acquiring Mike Bibby? How much research did you do when it came to Jared Jeffries? NONE. I think the NBA needs an infusion of young GM's. Youth worked in regards to coaches. Guys like Alexis Ajinca's talents will rot in the abyss while people like Brian Cardinal will always have a job. It's a damn shame. I'm so tired of all these "locker room" guys. End of the day, one or two is fine, but I don't need 5 or 6 guys who can't play to have jobs for their "leadership". I'll take an undeveloped young guy with potential over a veteran who's sucked for the last 3+ years any day of the week.


P.S. SIGN AL THORNTON!!!!!! (My mom used to tell me to talk things into fruition lol)yeah i can give you a perfect example malik rose, remember his bum ass, and charles garbage smith, and chris duhon, and sorry knickcity, jared assaroni jeffries all bums languishing on the roster, eating up cap space.

[franchize]

yeah i can give you a perfect example malik rose, remember his bum ass, and charles garbage smith, and chris duhon, and sorry knickcity, jared assaroni jeffries all bums languishing on the roster, eating up cap space.

:applause:
lmao @ assaroni

Allow me to add to the list
Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Charlie Ward

[percelloveknicks]

:applause:
lmao @ assaroni

Allow me to add to the list
Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Charlie Wardand the last years of allan houston, remember when kirk hinrick blocked his jumper? And houston couldnt even chase kirk down and he made that easy ass layup. Boy those days they did spreewell dirty in favor of houston. I miss the days of anthony mason and xavier mcdaniels, i know im getting off the subject but teams use to FEAR US!!!!!!

[franchize]

and the last years of allan houston, remember when kirk hinrick blocked his jumper? And houston couldnt even chase kirk down and he made that easy ass layup. Boy those days they did spreewell dirty in favor of houston. I miss the days of anthony mason and xavier mcdaniels, i know im getting off the subject but teams use to FEAR US!!!!!!

Mason was so much better than Oakley it wasn't even funny. Somehow however Oakley was cemented on our roster and Mase had to come off the bench...even though he did everything Oak could do and played PG for us in some key games.

[knickscity]

How is a vets min contract eating cap space?

Yes, I like Jeffries as a basketball player.

He defends, will give you a stop or two, and gets a few boards in limited action.

And he pretty much does it every single time he is on the court.

12-15 minutes max and it doesn't even have to be every game.

For the vets min, give me that guy every single year.

I'm about to make a Jared Jeffries sticky again.:lol

[franchize]

Vet min contracts eat up space because they could be league minimum contracts. Jeffries isnt worth the league minimum. You say he's good for a stop or two a game. I agree. Problem is,he's in the game for way more than one or two possessions. That means he's stinking it up! The nonsense about him being able to "defend all 5 positions" NOT TRUE. Don't even know where it came from. Him being a rebounder NOT TRUE. He's pudding soft. He is completely inept on offense. He can't hit a free throw if his mother's life depended on it. He doesn't block shots. So basically you're telling me he's getting 1 mil + to draw 2 charges a game? I havent played basketball in almost 3 years. I'm 30 lbs heavier than my playing weight. I was an undersized pg. That being said, I GUARANTEE I can draw 2 charges in a basketball game. Where's my million?:confusedshrug:

[franchize]

I do recall last year suggesting we trade for Ishe Smith. That's yet another guy who'd be cheap.He's killing our starting pg right now.

[percelloveknicks]

Im starting a trade fields movement, he does'nt know when to shoot, he cant work thru the pick ie: ray allan, and last nite, did you see amare scream on him, man he had all offseason to see a shrink and re work his game. Let me say it, i was holding my tongue cuz i didnt want you guys getting on me but f that, I HATE FIELDS!!!!! He is soft as newborn baby green doodo!!!!!

[Clutch]

Im starting a trade fields movement, he does'nt know when to shoot, he cant work thru the pick ie: ray allan, and last nite, did you see amare scream on him, man he had all offseason to see a shrink and re work his game. Let me say it, i was holding my tongue cuz i didnt want you guys getting on me but f that, I HATE FIELDS!!!!! He is soft as newborn baby green doodo!!!!!
You know what's the most disappointing part of it ? That Fields was maybe our best player tonight. Who was playing better than him ?
Melo and Amare couldn't hit anything.Douglas was trash,Bibby also.Chandler had 2 points and 3 rebounds.

Fields made some stupid decisions but everyone did.
It's between him and Walker for the player of the game. And that shows how poorly we played last night.

[bluechox2]

we play really hard on defense the first 2 quarters of both games, that the guys come out tired in the third and really stunk it up in the 4th. only reason we won against the celtics was cus melo had a whole period to rest. in the 4th, asides from melo, everyone was crap. our guys are not used to playing alot of defense.

against the warriors, our defense was great the first 2 periods but that took alot away from the offense and then the def/off started deteriorating in the 3rd and 4th.

we need a real coach. mdantoni could care less of anything, he just smiles all game, no motivation

[Clutch]

we play really hard on defense the first 2 quarters of both games, that the guys come out tired in the third and really stunk it up in the 4th. only reason we won against the celtics was cus melo had a whole period to rest. in the 4th, asides from melo, everyone was crap. our guys are not used to playing alot of defense.

against the warriors, our defense was great the first 2 periods but that took alot away from the offense and then the def/off started deteriorating in the 3rd and 4th.

we need a real coach. mdantoni could care less of anything, he just smiles all game, no motivation
You're so wrong.

He's among the best coaches when it comes to motivating the players. His speeches are convincing and give players the energy to keep trying.

Here's a proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xhulZeZUh0

[franchize]

Last night just further proved my point. GSW are full of young,talented guys who aren't being paid that much money. They all play like it could be their last game and they have something to prove. We send out some old,veteran bums who have nothing to prove and have made more than enough money in their career. Theyre just hoping to latch on to a contender and have no shot of contributing anything of value. Their bench destroyed us last night. We have ZERO depth. We just showed that if Melo and Amare go cold, which is completely possible, we're going to lose 90% of the time.

[Rameek]

Last night just further proved my point. GSW are full of young,talented guys who aren't being paid that much money. They all play like it could be their last game and they have something to prove. We send out some old,veteran bums who have nothing to prove and have made more than enough money in their career. Theyre just hoping to latch on to a contender and have no shot of contributing anything of value. Their bench destroyed us last night. We have ZERO depth. We just showed that if Melo and Amare go cold, which is completely possible, we're going to lose 90% of the time.
This is what everyone wanted though. A big 3 and just find guys that could just play roles. I've always said thats BS. You cant do that.
When you buy a complete core this is the distinct disadvantage. The handwriting was on the wall that no one wanted to play here before and after acquiring these assets. Its going to be hard to find people that would want to play with 2 guys that has to have the ball in their hands and score without making the other players better.

[redrich2000]

I suspect there is a double agent somwhere in our organisation. It must have taken special talent to take what was already one of the worst benches in the league and make A LOT worse.

[knickscity]

I suspect there is a double agent somwhere in our organisation. It must have taken special talent to take what was already one of the worst benches in the league and make A LOT worse.
2 players from our bench are in the starting lineup.

When we see the backcourt I think would be best, the bench will look much better.

Baron and Shumpert should be our starting backcourt.

[franchize]

Grunwald should be fired. PERIOD! No excuses. Other teams have done better with the same amount of cap room. My dad and I were talking and he put it in perfect perspective.

Taking our rookies out of the equation...Bill Walker, Renaldo Balkman were pretty much contractual locks before Grunwald got here. So Grunwald can take blame or credit for them. Unless he went out and traded them, they were going to be Knicks. Right now, you'd probably have to say they've been our best bench players. It's really not even been close. So that means the guys you acquired are significantly worse than the guys you were forced to keep. He had the choice to get Lin,Bibby,Jordan,Jeffries,Novak. So when those guys come in the game and stink it up...IT'S ON YOU!

Right now we have a 15 man roster and only 3 players on it that can create their own shot. THREE PLAYERS! Melo, Amare and Shumpert... Maybe Baron if or when he gets healthy.

[Rameek]

Grunwald should be fired. PERIOD! No excuses. Other teams have done better with the same amount of cap room. My dad and I were talking and he put it in perfect perspective.

Taking our rookies out of the equation...Bill Walker, Renaldo Balkman were pretty much contractual locks before Grunwald got here. So Grunwald can take blame or credit for them. Unless he went out and traded them, they were going to be Knicks. Right now, you'd probably have to say they've been our best bench players. It's really not even been close. So that means the guys you acquired are significantly worse than the guys you were forced to keep. He had the choice to get Lin,Bibby,Jordan,Jeffries,Novak. So when those guys come in the game and stink it up...IT'S ON YOU!

Right now we have a 15 man roster and only 3 players on it that can create their own shot. THREE PLAYERS! Melo, Amare and Shumpert... Maybe Baron if or when he gets healthy.
You cant blame the bench for the starters sucking. It wasnt like anyone wanted to come here.

[franchize]

You convinced yet? Or is being down 12 to the Bobcats not enough? THIS IS NOT A GOOD TEAM. It's a team with 3 good player, a decent sophmore and a promising rookie.

[knickscity]

You convinced yet? Or is being down 12 to the Bobcats not enough? THIS IS NOT A GOOD TEAM. It's a team with 3 good player, a decent sophmore and a promising rookie.
Nope, it's all on D'antoni, they aren't even trying to defend.

Shumpert hasn't been influenced by D'antoni yet, so he looks out of place playing defense and attacking the rim.

[franchize]

Nope, it's all on D'antoni, they aren't even trying to defend.

Shumpert hasn't been influenced by D'antoni yet, so he looks out of place playing defense and attacking the rim.

If you say so :rolleyes: I mean I hate his coaching too but c'mon That has nothing to do with the fact that when Melo and Stat are out the game, teams go on huge runs. The coaching sucks but theres also a huge lack of talent in out 2nd unit. The thing that get me is, you' complain about D'Antoni's defense (and rightfully so) but we have guys who havent been good defenders EVER in their careers.But if you want to keep touching the fire to find out it's hot ...by all means.

[Draz]

Amare isn't honestly showing up. He isn't. I feel like we should package his ass for Howard.

[franchize]

Amare isn't honestly showing up. He isn't. I feel like we should package his ass for Howard.

You mind me of Jets fans lol Ignore all the scrubs and attack the allstar. Let me guess, you didnt want us to trade Gallo and Mozgov either right? Trading Amare is the least of our worries.

[knickscity]

If you say so :rolleyes: I mean I hate his coaching too but c'mon That has nothing to do with the fact that when Melo and Stat are out the game, teams go on huge runs. The coaching sucks but theres also a huge lack of talent in out 2nd unit. The thing that get me is, you' complain about D'Antoni's defense (and rightfully so) but we have guys who havent been good defenders EVER in their careers.But if you want to keep touching the fire to find out it's hot ...by all means.
You're actually covering up the fact that it's D'antoni's fault this team looks like this.

The team should be competing, no matter who is on the floor, that is 100% on the coach.

Stat is not defending at all, and is playing from the perimeter only, but coach say nothing.

Boris fraking Diaw looks like Tim Duncan tonite, but no adjustments, and he was Stat's assignment.

Gerald Henderson looks like Rip Hamilton, but no adjustments.

Even when D'antoni was mic'ed up, all he said was "let's go, let's, let's go".

And I call bull on the defense point.

Chicago became a defensive team IMMEDIATELY when they hired Thibbs, and that's with the worst defender on the team in Boozer.

Boston became defensive immediately just by adding KG.

Pierce and Ray Allen are not great defenders, yet the team plays great defense.

Team defense is COACHED and the players must buy-in.

But defense is not being coached, that is evident.

The system is not involved around defense, this team still wants to outscore opponents.

[franchize]

You're actually covering up the fact that it's D'antoni's fault this team looks like this.


:wtf: I don't know how many times in ow many threads I have to say Mike D'Antoni needs to be fired. Dude, i am not disagreeing with you about Mike. He sucks. All I'm saying is, even with a good coach, this is a poor team. We have guys who we can't afford to take off the court because the moment we do, we're going to fall behind big time. You shouldnt even need good coaching to beat Charlotte.:oldlol: This coaching staff,this roster and this GM need a big time change.

[knickscity]

:wtf: I don't know how many times in ow many threads I have to say Mike D'Antoni needs to be fired. Dude, i am not disagreeing with you about Mike. He sucks. All I'm saying is, even with a good coach, this is a poor team. We have guys who we can't afford to take off the court because the moment we do, we're going to fall behind big time. You shouldnt even need good coaching to beat Charlotte.:oldlol: This coaching staff,this roster and this GM need a big time change.
Teams lose when their best players isn't playing, Boston started 0-3.

Is the rest of their team scrubs too?

Dallas started 0-4, Dirk Kidd and terry must suck too?

The point is....... team's will lose.

But this team isn't losing because of lack of quality players.

It's losing because key elements of WINNING basketball is not stressed.

I just watched the post game and Melo and Tyson said some interesting things.

Melo doesn't wanna ruffle feathers and actually complimented Stat on being aggressive.

He had that same look on his face when asked if he had talked to CP3 about coming to the Knicks.

"Nope, never had that convo".

He was blatantly lying tonite.

Chandler said "players are mad", and the defensive rotation are terrible and you can't win like that."

This isn't lack of talent, it's the system.

It is not ironic that Stat comes back and the team gives up 118 points and his assignment rocks him for 75% shooting!!!!

Boris Diaw is an 8ppg player...... career!!!!!

Now come on, you've played organized ball.

I have as well.

Please tell me when a player is not competing, and letting his man abuse him, is the coach supposed to say something?

Or just let it continue?

This team has talent, but has a terrible system that does not fit the team.

We were at full strength and still lost, and lost big, to a team that was on a four game losing streak.

Friday we play a team that is on a 6 game losing streak.

Both of these teams may not win 30 games COMBINED, but I fully expect them to win against this team.

Because the system is built for losing.

[franchize]

[QUOTE=knickscity]Teams lose when their best players isn't playing, Boston started 0-3.

Is the rest of their team scrubs too?

Dallas started 0-4, Dirk Kidd and terry must suck too?

The point is....... team's will lose.

But this team isn't losing because of lack of quality players.

It's losing because key elements of WINNING basketball is not stressed.

I just watched the post game and Melo and Tyson said some interesting things.

Melo doesn't wanna ruffle feathers and actually complimented Stat on being aggressive.

He had that same look on his face when asked if he had talked to CP3 about coming to the Knicks.

"Nope, never had that convo".

He was blatantly lying tonite.

Chandler said "players are mad", and the defensive rotation are terrible and you can't win like that."

This isn't lack of talent, it's the system.

It is not ironic that Stat comes back and the team gives up 118 points and his assignment rocks him for 75% shooting!!!!

Boris Diaw is an 8ppg player...... career!!!!!

Now come on, you've played organized ball.

I have as well.

Please tell me when a player is not competing, and letting his man abuse him, is the coach supposed to say something?

Or just let it continue?

This team has talent, but has a terrible system that does not fit the team.

We were at full strength and still lost, and lost big, to a team that was on a four game losing streak.

Friday we play a team that is on a 6 game losing streak.

Both of these teams may not win 30 games COMBINED, but I fully expect them to win against this team.

Because the system is built for losing.[/QUOTE

Not getting where you're going with this nor am I understanding why you don't see that I'm agreeing with you about D'Antoni. But since you mentioned Boston and Dallas, let's examine those teams. When Dallas subs, they have the luxury of bringing guys like Lamar Odom and Jason Terry off the bench. The Celtics have the luxury of bringing guys like Brandon Bass, Avery Bradley and this new guy Stiemsma off the bench. Is D'Antoni our biggest problem and doe he need to go? Abolutely! Is he our only problem? Absolutely NOT! You have to admit our bench got worse this offseason. We just have too many guys that you can't afford to have on the court for more than 5 minutes. That coupled with an idiot for a coach is a recipe for disaster. When playing Toney Douglas major minutes or having to play Mike Bibby is your options, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[Rameek]

There are so many issues with this team.

*Buying a flawed core is a problem (2 max players and 1 near max player)

*D'Antoni is a problem.

*No time to practice is a problem.

*The bench is a problem (no quality players wanted to come here Franchize. Cant blame Grunwald for this either because no one wanted to come here for Walsh either).

*No player leadership

[Scoooter]

Amar'e was down in the paint a lot early tonight waving his arms in frustration, and no one could find him. Wide open, on his way to the rim. Not a look. I think Chandler hit him once for a dunk. This team has a horrible bench and a horrible backcourt. D-League awful.

Very poorly constructed roster. They've had poorly constructed rosters for 10+ years now. Let's not forget who our owner is.

[bluechox2]

ima say it again, we need a pg who can pass

[franchize]

ima say it again, we need a pg who can pass
:applause:


*The bench is a problem (no quality players wanted to come here Franchize. Cant blame Grunwald for this either because no one wanted to come here for Walsh either).


That's a lame ass excuse. I'm sorry. When did the Knicks become the Raptors? You act like people are avoiding us like the plague. C'mon dude. Signing Lin, Novak, Bibby, etc was our only resort? Stop it. Shawne Williams said his 1st choice was to stay with us. Call a spade a spade man. We went out and blew our load on the biggest name in free agency and strapped ourselves financially. So your saying even if the price was right, guys wouldn't have come here? Bullshit. I SAW the video with CP3 when he said he wanted to be a Knick. The only reason he isn't a Knick a is because we have no assets to offer NO and he didnt want to stay the whole season. I agree with all your points except this one. The bench is absolutely a problem and 75% of that is Grunwald's fault. The other 25% is D'Antoni's fault for thinking you can get specialists and play them major minutes. This isn't football. You don't have blitz packages. Either a guy can play or he can't and we have too many guys on our bench who CANNOT PLAY! We have a team full of Aaron Maybins. Problem is, you can't sub these guys in and out only for pass rush situations lol There are teams right now with guys making chump change and producng at a high level and WE'RE NOT ONE OF THEM!

[Rameek]

:applause:



That's a lame ass excuse. I'm sorry. When did the Knicks become the Raptors? You act like people are avoiding us like the plague. C'mon dude. Signing Lin, Novak, Bibby, etc was our only resort? Stop it. Shawne Williams said his 1st choice was to stay with us. Call a spade a spade man. We went out and blew our load on the biggest name in free agency and strapped ourselves financially. So your saying even if the price was right, guys wouldn't have come here? Bullshit. I SAW the video with CP3 when he said he wanted to be a Knick. The only reason he isn't a Knick a is because we have no assets to offer NO and he didnt want to stay the whole season. I agree with all your points except this one. The bench is absolutely a problem and 75% of that is Grunwald's fault. The other 25% is D'Antoni's fault for thinking you can get specialists and play them major minutes. This isn't football. You don't have blitz packages. Either a guy can play or he can't and we have too many guys on our bench who CANNOT PLAY! We have a team full of Aaron Maybins. Problem is, you can't sub these guys in and out only for pass rush situations lol There are teams right now with guys making chump change and producng at a high level and WE'RE NOT ONE OF THEM!
So you were on board to get Stat for 18 mill, you were on board to trade everyone for Melo and give him 18 mill. Unless the CBA was going to increase the cap which all knew it wasnt who honestly thought CP3 was going to get here. So you have 2 guys that took max deals (unlike Miami). They make a good basketball move by getting a center at a high price 14 mill. This means you have roughly 51 mill tied up in 3 players.

You have veterans minimum and mid level exception. Last year we had similar money only to save cap space for Melo. No one wanted to come here thats on Walsh's watch.

This year same situation no one wants to come here. Miami has some room most players wants to go down there. They have 3 guys that have good basketball IQ's play hard every night. They will win.

Obviously like I said before over the years and people were in here talking garbage about people want to play in NY for enough ridiculous reasons that not true. Players know winning situations when they see one. Paychecks, Winning, and Minutes is what drives this league.

Bdiddy, Boomdizzle chose NY because of his ego and a starting gig with no challengers.

[franchize]

So you were on board to get Stat for 18 mill, you were on board to trade everyone for Melo and give him 18 mill. Unless the CBA was going to increase the cap which all knew it wasnt who honestly thought CP3 was going to get here. So you have 2 guys that took max deals (unlike Miami). They make a good basketball move by getting a center at a high price 14 mill. This means you have roughly 51 mill tied up in 3 players.

You have veterans minimum and mid level exception. Last year we had similar money only to save cap space for Melo. No one wanted to come here thats on Walsh's watch.

This year same situation no one wants to come here. Miami has some room most players wants to go down there. They have 3 guys that have good basketball IQ's play hard every night. They will win.

Obviously like I said before over the years and people were in here talking garbage about people want to play in NY for enough ridiculous reasons that not true. Players know winning situations when they see one. Paychecks, Winning, and Minutes is what drives this league.

Bdiddy, Boomdizzle chose NY because of his ego and a starting gig with no challengers.

I'm no flip-flopper.MY stance hasn't changed.I am still COMPLETELY in favor of getting Melo and Amare. They aren't the problem. I was COMPLETELY against signing Tyson Chandler for that huge contract. I don't get how Grunwald gets a pass. Instead of being smart and getting a decent center and using the rest to get an upgrade at one of the guard positions, he spent all the money we'd tank seasons to save and used it on Tyson Chandler. This is NOT a "big 3". We have 2 stars and a pretty good center who's getting allstar money.

This nonsense that players were running away from NY is simply not true and you have no evidence of it. Bottom line is, we didnt get quality guys because we wasted our money. Instead of bringing back Shawne Williams, we brought back Jeffries. Instead of saving money and a roster spot until we found some talent, we brought in guys like Novak and Lin off waivers. Instead of getting some of the young, athletic talent with that 2nd round pick, we got Harrellson "because he hustles". These are the stupid moves that continue to plague the Knicks but fans always want to focus on the stars everytime we begin to struggle. Amare, on an off night, can get you 25. Jeffries may not score 25 points all year.

It's the Malik Rose,Charles Smith,Chris Duhon,Howard Eisley, Shandon Anderson, Michael Doleac, Charlie Ward, Othella Harrington, Travis Knight, Luc Longley, Jerome James, Moochie Norris, Antonio Davis, Steve Francis, Mardy Collins, Jerome James, Dan Dickau, Felton Spencer acquisitions that ruin rosters year after year. The media and fans only want to focus on the stars' attitudes instead of the real problems.

I want everyone to think of this before next offseason, when guys who have produced in the league get mentioned, and you think about turning up your nose. I'd KILL to have T-Mac at this point on our team. Remember how many threads we had about how Marbury was a cancer? Well @ his worst he was lightyears better than Toney Douglas. Remember our losses to the Bobcats and the Raptors the next time you want us to bring in another "energy guy" and a guy who's "not that bad for 5 minutes of play". Next time you think of bringing in a guy for shooting 3's or "leadership" despite the fact that they can't actually play. Remember how gassed your stars looked at the end of games and how theyre forcing shots because a contested shot from them is still a higher percentage than putting it in the hands of guys like Mike Bibby.I hope for everyone's sake, myself included, this season does one thing...Wakes people up! Fans, media, GMs etc. You can't sign names, put bums around them and get mad when they fail at trying to do everything themselves.

[franchize]

Read a stat today that said we're dead last in bench scoring. I'll ask this again, are you convinced yet? :confusedshrug:

[knickscity]

Read a stat today that said we're dead last in bench scoring. I'll ask this again, are you convinced yet? :confusedshrug:
Kinda like the Heat were last season, starters playing a lot.

Not that our bench is great, but no one off the bench plays more than 15 minutes.

[PistolPete]

Read a stat today that said we're dead last in bench scoring. I'll ask this again, are you convinced yet? :confusedshrug:


Gotta give it a few weeks I think once Douglas starts coming off the bench more often.

It's times like these where missing out on Shawne Williams and Jamal Crawford hurt us.

[bluechox2]

our bench...sucks :facepalm

[knickscity]

No matter how bad the bench is, overall the guys who have played, have at least been a positive out there.

No one thought Harrellson would even make the rotation, but has been arguably the most consistent player on the team, especially from a defensive standpoint.

Walker has played overall decently as well, and I would seriously consider putting him in the starting SG spot.

At least we know he won't avoid shooting like Fields is doing.

Douglas has been completely destroyed by D'antoni.

We wasn't this bad last season, but that failed experiment of starting at pg ruined him.

The bench needs work true enough, but it is what it is at this point.

[franchize]

The bench needs work true enough, but it is what it is at this point.

:milton You're sloooooowly starting to come to your senses lol


I don't blame the guys for being who they are. They're are playing exactly how they've played their entire career. The only guy on the bench that's been a disappointment is Douglas. He's actually gotten worse in a time we needed him to get better. I think people misinterpreted my direction with my OP. It isn't to rant and rave about our bench not playing well. The woes of our bench actually isn't our benches fault at all. It's on the GM. This is a poorly constructed team. None of the parts really fit,especially the head coach.

[Rameek]

If I see another complaint about the bench somewhere I am going to shoot people.

Cant fix this without money (cap space) or winning.

Not you Franchize but the game thread on the main board.

[bluechox2]

whats sad is the pacers and sixers are better than us at this point
Cleavland is not too far behind in passing us in standings (half game):facepalm
and were supposed to be a changed team, for what?
we got the lower end of the superstar market, just knicks luck

[Rameek]

Whining gets nothing done. Man up.

Trade David Lee for nothing in return, trade 4 starters for Melo. No picks No cap space.

Let's stop the whining already. It is what it is.

Only 2 FA's considered the Knicks this offseason Grant Hill rejected twice and Crawford.

[Scoooter]

Douglas has been completely destroyed by D'antoni.

We wasn't this bad last season, but that failed experiment of starting at pg ruined him.
He's always been a mental midget. I'm glad the pressure of throwing a few passes instead of chucking up contested threes ruined him, now they can get rid of his weak-minded ass.

[Scoooter]

Whining gets nothing done. Man up.

Trade David Lee for nothing in return, trade 4 starters for Melo. No picks No cap space.

Let's stop the whining already. It is what it is.

Only 2 FA's considered the Knicks this offseason Grant Hill rejected twice and Crawford.


Neither of whom would have helped any.

[Scoooter]

BTW our bench is crud.

[bluechox2]

the worst part of watching the knicks right now, even if they are winning, are when both melo and amare goes to the bench

[Scoooter]

the worst part of watching the knicks right now, even if they are winning, are when both melo and amare goes to the bench
D'Antoni's actually done a pretty good job of keeping at least one of them on the floor.

[bluechox2]

D'Antoni's actually done a pretty good job of keeping at least one of them on the floor.

yea ive seen that, but amare himself takes a lesser role when left in

[Scoooter]

Hard to get the ball out of Shumpert's hands.

[Draz]

See the problem is our bench. Not only this, but if we remove Melo from the picture, Amare should be like last year, dominant. He wasn't, we only see this in the 1st quarter and then it goes down the drain. Of course putting Amare in there without Melo, he doesn't have Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov anymore or Felton. But he has Shumpert, and Tyson. You can't tell me these guys can't AT LEAST cover for Gallo and what Chandler used to do for the team.

It's just, no one here can create their own shot. We have poor shot selection, we have good ball rotation and then after the first quarter, where did it go?

Honestly. These are grown men, millionaire professional athletes, I'm not going to stress any longer about this team. They want to make the playoffs, play ball. If not, I'll be watching the playoffs REGARDLESS, and WILL have favoritism in teams advancing.

[bluechox2]

billups is playing well in LA
dalembert is producing similar numbers to tyson

[Draz]

I don't mind we didn't get Dalembert, Tyson is doing good so far, he effects the game more then we think and stats doesn't tell a story for him.

[franchize]

billups is playing well in LA
dalembert is producing similar numbers to tyson
Hate to say i told ya so but...actually, I dont. :oldlol:

[Scoooter]

See the problem is our bench. Not only this, but if we remove Melo from the picture, Amare should be like last year, dominant. He wasn't, we only see this in the 1st quarter and then it goes down the drain. Of course putting Amare in there without Melo, he doesn't have Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov anymore or Felton. But he has Shumpert, and Tyson. You can't tell me these guys can't AT LEAST cover for Gallo and what Chandler used to do for the team.
LOL, what? That's like saying he has cool tattoos. Doesn't help him on the court at all.

[Rameek]

Neither of whom would have helped any.
The team needs some leadership. Someone with work ethic and a basketball IQ. Its not on this roster.

Hard to coach a team that has been revamped this many times.

[Clutch]

Our best bench player is Josh Harrellson :lol

[Scoooter]

The team needs some leadership. Someone with work ethic and a basketball IQ. Its not on this roster.

Hard to coach a team that has been revamped this many times.
I don't think Jamal Crawford's that guy.

[knickscity]

Our bench isn't as bad it may seem.

I just think our projected starting backcourt would be best if both of them came off the bench, which would help bolster our bench.

Our guys just aren't terrible, but they aren't household names yet.:D

I feel soooooo vindicated.:cheers:

We have to admit, our bench has held it down, matured, gained chemistry, and has been laying it on the line out there.

They don't look so bad now.

I've risked my credibility with these guys.

[Scoooter]

I feel soooooo vindicated.:cheers:

We have to admit, our bench has held it down, matured, gained chemistry, and has been laying it on the line out there.

They don't look so bad now.

I've risked my credibility with these guys.
Great seer. :bowdown: :bowdown:

They've really impressed lately. :applause:

[Clutch]

This is simply amazing.

Our bench is playing beautiful on offense (considering their offensive talent),amazing on defense and they give 100% every night.

On top of that they are winning everything.

Do Melo and Amare really need to come back ? :D

[bluechox2]

This is simply amazing.

Our bench is playing beautiful on offense (considering their offensive talent),amazing on defense and they give 100% every night.

On top of that they are winning everything.

Do Melo and Amare really need to come back ? :D
cant even believe im saying that myself, our bench of all things is humming on offense and defense,
our double teaming tonight was beautiful, they got back to their own man at the same time

[knickscity]

Also summer long I was preaching how having CP3 would make even our bench look serviceable.

Little did I know, our own floor general was sitting over there in the 15th spot.

These guys are having their games elevated because of one guy who is so humble he will never admit it.....Jeremy Lin.

[Rameek]

Also summer long I was preaching how having CP3 would make even our bench look serviceable.

Little did I know, our own floor general was sitting over there in the 15th spot.

These guys are having their games elevated because of one guy who is so humble he will never admit it.....Jeremy Lin.
Because they are playing with a SUPERSTAR!!

[bluechox2]

in these last 4 games, we fixed and improved our bench play for the future and found our pg of the future and it didnt take any trades to do it

[percelloveknicks]

in these last 4 games, we fixed and improved our bench play for the future and found our pg of the future and it didnt take any trades to do itor any crazy ass contracts.

[percelloveknicks]

Because they are playing with a SUPERSTAR!!do you really like him rameek? Do you think he is the real deal? Cuz i love him.

[Rameek]

do you really like him rameek? Do you think he is the real deal? Cuz i love him.
I was sold after the first 10 minutes of the Nets game. The offense and defense and confidence of the team went through the fukcing roof!

I hope people dont think I am playing or being sarcastic but this kid is a superstar!

[bluechox2]

safe to say we have a big 4
jeremy's emergence (though a bit late) was like the first year of the celtics big 3 where rondo emerged from nowhere, and ended up winning the 'chip.

i think we found the guy to bring it all together

[Clutch]

I'm really excited to see how we'll look with Melo and Amare in the lineup.

Let's hope we can win tonight and prolong our linning streak.

[Rameek]

I am going on record right now to say I am sorry for calling these bench players scrubs. They are completely capable of playing basketball even with limited talent but with hustle and guile.

It wasnt there fault they looked so bad it was the fact they had no on court leadership and no one to bring out their abilities.


Thank Goodness for LinSanity for showing Knick fans you guys are not as useless as we thought!

I believe in LIN

[Clutch]

I've never seen Rameek talk so much positive things about some Knicks player.

You really like Lin,don't you ? :D

I can't blame you,I love this guy.

[bluechox2]

I am going on record right now to say I am sorry for calling these bench players scrubs. They are completely capable of playing basketball even with limited talent but with hustle and guile.

It wasnt there fault they looked so bad it was the fact they had no on court leadership and no one to bring out their abilities.


Thank Goodness for LinSanity for showing Knick fans you guys are not as useless as we thought!

I believe in LIN
i too sadly believed this, but im glad linsanity showed me the light

melo/amare in the linsanity sytem probably turn into goat position players

[Rameek]

I've never seen Rameek talk so much positive things about some Knicks player.

You really like Lin,don't you ? :D

I can't blame you,I love this guy.
It's the first time in about 10 years that I really have believed this team could be great. Just to watch them play unified on both ends of the floor. Even when they were trailing last night from being gassed over playing so many games different people were able to step up. To see so many good shot selections whether they fell or not it was wonderful. The T-Wolves front court is huge and Rubio and JJ are headaches. This team never quit.

Yeah I am on the POSITIVE RUN NOW.:roll: :applause:

This dude is special and I am saying it now this team CAN be special but I am worried about the Melo factor.

[franchize]

Sorry to be a negative Norm but I still don't like our bench. Maybe it's because I see Shumpert as a starter. I've been clamoring for Novak and Jordan to get more playing time. I don't like Bibby,Jeffries, I'm losing faith in Walker, I'd liek to see if Balkman has anything to offer.

[Rameek]

Sorry to be a negative Norm but I still don't like our bench. Maybe it's because I see Shumpert as a starter. I've been clamoring for Novak and Jordan to get more playing time. I don't like Bibby,Jeffries, I'm losing faith in Walker, I'd liek to see if Balkman has anything to offer.
There should be at least a 10 to 11 man rotation during the season but as the playoffs approaches D'Antoni has to define roles and minutes.

I do believe Shump should be starting but I dont think Fields could handle coming off the bench and being depended upon to be a major player for the 2nd unit.

I also think Jordan needs to spell Chandler as well even if its just to foul. Balkman its harder because the Knicks have too many small forwards already.

[Sarcastic]

but I dont think Fields could handle coming off the bench and being depended upon to be a major player for the 2nd unit.


This is a retarded line of reasoning to keep someone in the starting lineup ahead of a more talented player.

[Clutch]

Shumpert is a better defender than Fields and it would be nice to have as much defense as we can get in the starting lineup.

On the other hand he's a better scorer than Fields and we need all the scoring we can get from our bench.
Shumpert showed some beautiful offensive moves in the last few games.

He has started to attack the rim instead of shooting contested jumpers.

[Scoooter]

I haven't seen anything to put Shumpert over Fields. He still seems too stupid for my liking. If one of them had a jumpshot (although Fields did last year, so something's going on there), it might be a different story.

[knickscity]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing both Fields and Shump on the bench.

A Lin-JR Smith backcourt is looking pretty nice if that happens.

[franchize]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing both Fields and Shump on the bench.

A Lin-JR Smith backcourt is looking pretty nice if that happens.

Church :applause:

[Rameek]

This is a retarded line of reasoning to keep someone in the starting lineup ahead of a more talented player.
Its not retarded their are some NBA players that come off the bench even though they may be more talented than the guy ahead of them....

Mayo, Crawford, Harden, Terry, Ginobli etc etc....

Its about putting the players in the best position to succeed. :rolleyes:

Can anyone see Fields leading the 2nd unit? :rolleyes:

[knickscity]

Its not retarded their are some NBA players that come off the bench even though they may be more talented than the guy ahead of them....

Mayo, Crawford, Harden, Terry, Ginobli etc etc....

Its about putting the players in the best position to succeed. :rolleyes:

Can anyone see Fields leading the 2nd unit? :rolleyes:
Mayo, Crawford, Terry as starters were terrible.

I really can't see Harden starting with Westbrook.

Ginobili without question, but solidifies that second unit.

And yes I can see Fields lead the second unit, as he seems to excel when the star players are not around.

All I would want from the second unit is to protect the lead, provide the starters adequate rest.

[Rameek]

Mayo, Crawford, Terry as starters were terrible.

I really can't see Harden starting with Westbrook.

Ginobili without question, but solidifies that second unit.

And yes I can see Fields lead the second unit, as he seems to excel when the star players are not around.

All I would want from the second unit is to protect the lead, provide the starters adequate rest.
Harden or Westbrook could start at PG or SG....

Fields excelled when star players arent around I disagree. He hasnt excelled until recently in any capacity since last year.

[knickscity]

Harden or Westbrook could start at PG or SG....

Fields excelled when star players arent around I disagree. He hasnt excelled until recently in any capacity since last year.
I said I can't imagine them starting together.

Ironically, Fields has played better with the stars not playing, which is the case right now.

[franchize]

Bibby
Harrelson
Douglas
Novak
Jordan
Jeffries
Walker

All players who can't create their own shot on offense. Of those players, only one (Novak) contributes anything offensively. This is a huge problem considering we're adding this to Chandler who also can't create for himself offensively. Furthermore, Baron and Landry's contributions are very limited. So when people say Smith, Shumpert and Anthony's shot selection is poor, I don't necessarily disagree but I ask what is the alternative. Well, we saw it last night. Guys are looking lost out there and turning the ball over. We dribble the shot clock down and then give it to Melo last minute for him to save the day. Of course he's going to take poor shots.

[knickscity]

The main problem with the bench is that it's two main components are in the starting lineup.

Baron is a 20 minute guy at most, but has to play more and is clearly hurting.

As much as I love Shumperts game, he is best off the bench as well.

We don't have the luxury of trotting out players who are natural to their spots.

As long as Amare and Lin are out, the team although winning games, one's that were not predictable, still are severely at a disadvantage.

The team has no quality shooting guard, power forward, or pg either available or healthy.

We're counting on heroics now just to win games.