Derrick Rose Still Looks Like A Guard

[TheBluest]

and not a Point Guard. I've always maintained this even before he came into the league. He's more a 2guard in a point guard's body. He may possibly end up being the most overrated player ever in the history of the NBA.

I see nothing in his game that makes it easier for his teammates unless his scoring is what causes defenses to focus more on him and then they'll have them but as a facilitator getting them easy baskets in calculated spots on the floor within the offense forget about it.... he's garbage.

He's like a suicide point guard running a dumb down base set offense....you know the kind that look for theirs or go through the motions of running patty cake sets and when the defense takes away all their individual options they look for bailouts, with hardly no time on the clock from their teammates.

I mean if you take Rose's athleticism away what the hell is he?

Kind of ironic how much smoother the Bulls offense runs when he sits, it looks fluid... but their problem in this situation is overall lack of talent from the second unit.

He's a likable good kid but he stinks as a point guard POINT BLANK PERIOD!

[pauk]

ive been saying this since the first day i saw rose play.... he is more like a Iverson/Marbury/Jimmer and so on....

[hoop_soup]

One bad quarter and the haters start swarming. I love it :roll:

[pauk]

One bad quarter and the haters start swarming. I love it :roll:

haters start swarming by saying he is more of a 25-30 ppg SG... rather than a 10-15 apg PG?

i think Rose is best used as a SCORER.... i dont care where he starts PG/SG... and thats why he is not a true PG or "traditional" PG

[TheBluest]

ive been saying this since the first day i saw rose play.... he is more like a Iverson/Marbury/Jimmer and so on....


Yeah I called him Marbury a couple months before Memphis season ended and Knick fans thrashed me because they were clamoring for him and hoping somehow we could land him.

Don't get me wrong his athleticism is off da charts but The Bulls should have done right by him and slid him over to the 2 and brought in a pure point. Because if he isn't putting up shots and summersaulting down the lane I'm trying to think what does he really bring to the game?

Look if the ball is in your hands for 75% of a game by default you should get 5ast with no actual plays drawn up yet alone in organized sets with professional players who do know how to get the ball in the basket.

Like which Bull does Derrick Rose make better than what they are as self made players?

Who start naming them....

Instead I see and group of players surrounding him making him better. This should never be the case from his position EVER!

[kingBynum]

nah he's just getting shut down by D-Fish and Blake :oldlol:

[Dengness9]

ive been saying this since the first day i saw rose play.... he is more like a Iverson/Marbury/Jimmer and so on....

Jimmer????

Not suprised it was you who posted this trash.

[TheBluest]

Like I've never seen him come down the court and run a PNR in consecutive sets getting guys like Boozer and Noah easy baskets. 1 is because I think his IQ is hella suspect and 2 he's a mediocre at best passer.

Does anyone ever see him dribble into the teeth of the defense and suck it in consistently while making passes to teammates staying put on the floor?

Noah's passing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Derrick Rose BY A WIDE MARGIN

We know he can get his but how well does he feed his kids.

I mean lol he's coming down court giving the ball up to his guards/forwards so they can deliver post entry passes and he runs completely away from the play to the other side of the court, he's not even directing offense. I know for a fact if CP3/D-Will/Nash/Kidd(prime) were on this team there's no way you see that as much as we do with the Bulls.

Then they come down again and Boozer drops him a dime cutting in the lane, which he fumbled it but recovered and scored because of his athleticism.?<-------This is 80% of his game in a nutshell.

^^^^^^^^
He's good doing it but I don't think the Bulls get to the next level unless he evolves more quickly into a more pure point while systematically picking his spots in which to dominate a game.

[pauk]

Jimmer????

Not suprised it was you who posted this trash.

wtf? please dont tell me you think i am saying jimmer = rose or something? :lol

i am talking about GAMESTYLE at their size... im talking about scoring PGs aka undersized SGs aka Iverson aka Monta Ellis aka Marbury and yes even Jimmer...

thats what Rose is... more like a undersized SG

[chips93]

I see nothing in his game that makes it easier for his teammates unless his scoring is what causes defenses to focus more on him and then they'll have them but as a facilitator getting them easy baskets in calculated spots on the floor within the offense forget about it.... he's garbage.

if you cant see it, that doesnt mean its not there.

his game is pretty simple at times. get to the rim, score, or find the open man.

but he still 'facilitates', like any good pg. moves the ball to the open man, does basic pg stuff pretty well.


I mean if you take Rose's athleticism away what the hell is he?


. . . take away any player's size/athleticism, they arent professional basketball players. so what?


Kind of ironic how much smoother the Bulls offense runs when he sits, it looks fluid... but their problem in this situation is overall lack of talent from the second unit.

playing against the lakers second squad . . .



He's a likable good kid but he stinks as a point guard POINT BLANK PERIOD!

hes a good passer and a GREAT player POINT BLACK PERIOD!


Like I've never seen him come down the court and run a PNR in consecutive sets getting guys like Boozer and Noah easy baskets. 1 is because I think his IQ is hella suspect and 2 he's a mediocre at best passer.

Does anyone ever see him dribble into the teeth of the defense and suck it in consistently while making passes to teammates staying put on the floor?

well then you dont watch him enough.

according to synergy, he uses the pick and roll about three times as often as he goes iso.


I mean lol he's coming down court giving the ball up to his guards/forwards so they can deliver post entry passes and he runs completely away from the play to the other side of the court, he's not even directing offense. I know for a fact if CP3/D-Will/Nash/Kidd(prime) were on this team there's no way you see that as much as we do with the Bulls.

all good 'pure' 'pass-first' pgs dont need to dominate the ball, they move the ball, and facilitate player movement, like passing it to another player, to allow them to make the entry pass.

this only helps his case as a 'true' pg.

EDIT: and just as i go back to the game, rose assists boozer for an open jumper out of the pick and roll, then makes an open 3, off of a pick and roll.

[TheBluest]

if you cant see it, that doesnt mean its not there.

his game is pretty simple at times. get to the rim, score, or find the open man.

but he still 'facilitates', like any good pg. moves the ball to the open man, does basic pg stuff pretty well.



. . . take away any player's size/athleticism, they arent professional basketball players. so what?



playing against the lakers second squad . . .



hes a good passer and a GREAT player POINT BLACK PERIOD!


Zach Randolph and Steve Nash are by no means what you would call athletic players, they are skilled. When Jordan lost his athleticism he remained or maybe even elevated his level of skill play

Other relatively non athletic players or let's say they don't blow you away with it while doing major damage or incredibly efficient past and present

Magic
Bird
McHale
Kidd
Payton
Stockton
Pierce
Dirk
Gasol
Billups
Jamison
Miller
Rip Hamilton
David West
Richard Pryor

etc etc etc etc etc

Now that he's popped off for some 3s and whatnot he's letting his kids eat..... Pretty typical

[chips93]

. . . ok, so you completely ignored the part where i showed hes a good facilitator . . . whatever

so basically, hes a bad player because hes too athletic? is that what you are trying to say?

everybody is born with some physical advantages. some less obvious than others.

of the guys listed;
billups, stockton, kidd, and payton were all born with big, strong, quick hands

mchale, pau, david west, all were born with enormous wingspans

magic, bird, both born with great court vision/peripheral vision.

the fact is, everybody is born with some physical advantages.

so trying to discount some guys accomplishments because he was born with some is pointless, because everybody has some.

anyway, what is this, an award for hard work? of course not. its about winning. thats the bottom line, not who works hard, who deserves it, its about winning.

[DStebb716]

1. A point guard is still a guard.
2. People act like this makes him a bad player.
3. He was the MVP and is an absolute beast. Does it matter where he plays?

[Kblaze8855]

If ISH existed half the points in the HOF probably would have had people saying they arent great "pure" point guards.

A points job is to implement the offense not be whatever someone looking to hate thinks hes supposed to be. ISH is full of people who cant wait to complain even if it works. While back some guy kept making topics hating on Chris Paul because he does most of his damage off screens. As if his great pick and roll game is a failing. While back people were saying Billups is a 2 because he scores more than anything and gets 5-6 assists.

These guys are there to win games. They are gonna have a section of fans ready to hate no matter how they play.

Rose has an off game or even if he has a good game and the Buls lose...hes hated on for not being what someone wants to define a point guard as(ignoring what they actually are). Other times he destroys a team in the playoffs and the opposing coach calls him a combo of Jordan, Kidd, and Billups as the Pacers coach did.

Cliche as it is to say...haters really are gonna hate.

Most of the people hating on Rose are gonna do it no matter what happens even if he is an all NBA, MVP, future hall of fame point(assuming health).

Cant please everyone. best to not try.

[Rnbizzle]

If ISH existed half the points in the HOF probably would have had people saying they arent great "pure" point guards.

A points job is to implement the offense not be whatever someone looking to hate thinks hes supposed to be. ISH is full of people who cant wait to complain even if it works. While back some guy kept making topics hating on Chris Paul because he does most of his damage off screens. As if his great pick and roll game is a failing. While back people were saying Billups is a 2 because he scores more than anything and gets 5-6 assists.

These guys are there to win games. They are gonna have a section of fans ready to hate no matter how they play.

Rose has an off game or even if he has a good game and the Buls lose...hes hated on for not being what someone wants to define a point guard as(ignoring what they actually are). Other times he destroys a team in the playoffs and the opposing coach calls him a combo of Jordan, Kidd, and Billups as the Pacers coach did.

Cliche as it is to say...haters really are gonna hate.

Most of the people hating on Rose are gonna do it no matter what happens even if he is an all NBA, MVP, future hall of fame point(assuming health).

Cant please everyone. best to not try.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Scoooter]

Everyone already knows this.

[StroShow4]

Looks like a basketball player to me. And a damn good one without whom the team would suck.

[TheBluest]

I stand by what I said unless Rose is dialed in offensively he'll do nothing extraordinary from the point position to get his team easy baskets. Their offense looks ever more atrocious. I saw at least 3 sets in a row where Rose basically put Boozer in position to go ISO against a set longer defender in Pau while standing like a statue doing nothing.

[I.R.Beast]

And Dirk looks like a Small forward when he plays...so what?.... His teammates are flat out not finishing off his creation.....

He's shooting well from the field so now you have to cru about his assists?....comical just comical.

[StroShow4]

Rose basically put Boozer in position to go ISO against a set longer defender in Pau while standing like a statue doing nothing.

I agree with you, this was a mistake. He should've skipped the pass to Boozer and tried to score the ball himself.

[Lebron23]

Rich Man Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury.

[TheBluest]

I agree with you, this was a mistake. He should've skipped the pass to Boozer and tried to score the ball himself.


No come call for a pick and or wait for him to repost by dribbling back out so he can get better position. Not only did he stand their like a statue Boozer had to command him to cut through which resulted in Boozer then having room to face up as Rose defender cleared with him. He drove to the basket and got fouled. Uhhhh Boozer shouldn't have had to tell him to cut......that's basketball 101.

I mean for crying out loud Kobe is making McRoberts/Blake/Ebanks look special and he's a pure 2 guard. Kobe used to be hella selfish but when he evolved as a better facilitator playmaker it made the Lakers more dangerous post Shaq.

Sorry Rose is gonna have to evolve otherwise be prepared to get locked up something fierce by Bron again going home loser.

[Kblaze8855]

I stand by what I said unless Rose is dialed in offensively he'll do nothing extraordinary from the point position to get his team easy baskets. Their offense looks ever more atrocious. I saw at least 3 sets in a row where Rose basically put Boozer in position to go ISO against a set longer defender in Pau while standing like a statue doing nothing.

Ignoring for a moment that Boozer has 2 layups in the last 5 minutes off rickand rolls...and that the Bulls front line missed about 5 layups in a row(3 on one posession)...

Doing nothing "extraordinary" is what "stinks" means these days?

[Kblaze8855]

Only greatness equals greatness.

[1rkrage]

our shooting guard was clutch to end the game.

[StroShow4]

I will let the shot he just made speak for me. Rose is legit, don't care what position you want to call him.

[postmupndunkit]

SG or PG who cares? KOBE does..... WE GOT THE WIN:cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

22/5 on 70% shooting making 4 of 6 threes with the game winner after the team went down 10 with him sitting. Storm back....w. On the road.

And the hate will flow anyway. Which is why I say:


Cant please everyone. best to not try.

[TheBluest]

our shooting guard was clutch to end the game.


Yeah he made the best of a last opportunity as a 2. Kobe choked really bad though which is abnormal the fashion in which he did.

Over a 7 game series Rose needs to stay in pure 2 guard mode otherwise I see results like last year and it may come earlier rather than later.

[Kblaze8855]

Otherwise you see results like last year you say? MVP, best record in the league, ECF, and merely...not making the finals when you played a team with more talent?

Rose is what? 21? 22? Hes a 4th year guy coming off an MVP and 62 win season who in his first game this year did exactly what the people hating on him wanted him to do(shoot better...take less shots....finish games).

Hes far from a "If he doesnt change they wont win it all" point in his career. He won more series last season than several hall of famers did in their entire lives.

He has nothing to prove except that he can win a title. To be able to say that at his age is amazing. some of the "purest" points took more talented teams to less success than hes achieved already.

But the internet isnt the place to find people who arent looking to hate I suppose.

I think ive just seen too much of it.

[I.R.Beast]

I stand by what I said unless Rose is dialed in offensively he'll do nothing extraordinary from the point position to get his team easy baskets. Their offense looks ever more atrocious. I saw at least 3 sets in a row where Rose basically put Boozer in position to go ISO against a set longer defender in Pau while standing like a statue doing nothing.
DId u watch the game?.....guys were just bricking all game long...Rose would've had atleast 10 assists had noah deng and Hamilton made a few more of the plays he created.

[nathanjizzle]

wow this thread is straight fail, op still denying roses greatness even after witnessing him make crucial plays and even a great drive and assist to boozer.

haters gonna hate?

[burnsy87]

wow this thread is straight fail, op still denying roses greatness even after witnessing him make crucial plays and even a great drive and assist to boozer.

haters gonna hate?


Did D Rose go 9-13 (4-6 from 3) with 5 assists (high considering they shot about 20% in the second half, with a lot of easy looks) and the game winner?

From reading this forum, I'd assume he just had a horrible game

[Go Getter]

:facepalm

[Go Getter]

No come call for a pick and or wait for him to repost by dribbling back out so he can get better position. Not only did he stand their like a statue Boozer had to command him to cut through which resulted in Boozer then having room to face up as Rose defender cleared with him. He drove to the basket and got fouled. Uhhhh Boozer shouldn't have had to tell him to cut......that's basketball 101.

I mean for crying out loud Kobe is making McRoberts/Blake/Ebanks look special and he's a pure 2 guard. Kobe used to be hella selfish but when he evolved as a better facilitator playmaker it made the Lakers more dangerous post Shaq.

Sorry Rose is gonna have to evolve otherwise be prepared to get locked up something fierce by Bron again going home loser.
:oldlol:

Made em look real good with that late turnover and by getting his last second shot blocked didn't he?

[GOBB]

Id love Rose to set up teammates better. With time he may become better at it. But the NBA has gone from the traditional set position player to putting the best players on the court and running rock. He's improve many areas of his game, so I cant doubt this will be one that improves.

Final play of the game he looked like baby jesus. No one cared if he played PG, SG, SF, PF, C. End of the game, a big shot was needed. And 3 wise men didnt show up to help make that happen. Swish, you mad? What it look like? A Dubya! :bowdown:

[I.R.Beast]

Otherwise you see results like last year you say? MVP, best record in the league, ECF, and merely...not making the finals when you played a team with more talent?

Rose is what? 21? 22? Hes a 4th year guy coming off an MVP and 62 win season who in his first game this year did exactly what the people hating on him wanted him to do(shoot better...take less shots....finish games).

Hes far from a "If he doesnt change they wont win it all" point in his career. He won more series last season than several hall of famers did in their entire lives.

He has nothing to prove except that he can win a title. To be able to say that at his age is amazing. some of the "purest" points took more talented teams to less success than hes achieved already.

But the internet isnt the place to find people who arent looking to hate I suppose.

I think ive just seen too much of it.
this true and pure PG crap is annoying. i didnt know the PG position came with a shot attempt and assist total marker. give me better player , other PGs can be as pure as they want, Rose is better and is Listed at PG so he's therefore the best PG.

[I.Malcolm]

Rose is the PG on the Bulls. 1/2/3/4/5 PG/SG/SF/PF/C are just terms, not play style definitions.

[Pharcyde]

haters start swarming by saying he is more of a 25-30 ppg SG... rather than a 10-15 apg PG?

i think Rose is best used as a SCORER.... i dont care where he starts PG/SG... and thats why he is not a true PG or "traditional" PG

What is a "true" point guard? Not scoring at all?
Derrick is a point guard, always has been and always will be.

[(e)]

Rose plays the 1. I don't give a fck if he doesn't fit your mold for what a pg is suppose to be. Dude is a flat out winner and he proved it by hitting the game winner and making big plays down the stretch.

[MASH Transit]

Bulls will never win a title while Rose is their best player.

[MASH Transit]

Rose plays the 1. I don't give a fck if he doesn't fit your mold for what a pg is suppose to be. Dude is a flat out winner and he proved it by hitting the game winner and making big plays down the stretch.

Sounds like Tim Tebow to me. Get carried by your defense(Deng, today), do just enough not to blow the game, score once during the closing moments of the game, get all the credit.

Can't wait until he's exposed again in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

If Tebow were the most productive Qb in the NFL the comparison to Rose would make sense.

[nathanjizzle]

Sounds like Tim Tebow to me. Get carried by your defense(Deng, today), do just enough not to blow the game, score once during the closing moments of the game, get all the credit.

Can't wait until he's exposed again in the playoffs.

^^^^:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: ...what an idiot.

[Rhinox]

Sounds like Tim Tebow to me. Get carried by your defense(Deng, today), do just enough not to blow the game, score once during the closing moments of the game, get all the credit.

Can't wait until he's exposed again in the playoffs.

lol... dumb

[TheMan]

Sounds like Tim Tebow to me. Get carried by your defense(Deng, today), do just enough not to blow the game, score once during the closing moments of the game, get all the credit.

Can't wait until he's exposed again in the playoffs.
Haters gone hate:lol

I really don't give a shiit what u think of Rose:sleeping

[Celtics4ever]

Bulls will never win a title while Rose is their best player.

Joyner, did you run out of Durant threads to post in?

Rose>>>>>>Durant and it's not even close.

[Celtics4ever]

Haters gone hate:lol

I really don't give a shiit what u think of Rose:sleeping

He'a hating because me and couple other guys proved to him that Rose is a better overrall player than Durant. So now he wants to start a hate rant. Idiot

[TheMan]

He'a hating because me and couple other guys proved to him that Rose is a better overrall player than Durant. So now he wants to start a hate rant. Idiot
The OP and this MASHtransit look retarded after Rose' game winner:lol
TheBluest and MASHtransit are a couple of co.cksucking fa.ggots:applause:

[SuperPippen]

Sounds like Tim Tebow to me. Get carried by your defense(Deng, today), do just enough not to blow the game, score once during the closing moments of the game, get all the credit.

Can't wait until he's exposed again in the playoffs.

How on Earth is Rose comparable to Tebow?

They're both great in the 4th, to be sure, but Rose is actually productive outside of the 4th quarter.

If it weren't for the heroics of Rose and Deng, the Lakers would have one by at least 6.

And, please correct me if I happen to be wrong, but I do believe that Derrick Rose scored more than once. I'm not sure, but I don't think that his game-winner was worth 22 points.

[MASH Transit]

As I said; in the playoffs, when Rose is held to 7% 4th quarter shooting by a SF; again, everyone's tune will change. Again.

[Tenchi Ryu]

The OP and this MASHtransit look retarded after Rose' game winner:lol
TheBluest and MASHtransit are a couple of co.cksucking fa.ggots:applause:
:applause: :applause:

[(e)]

As I said; in the playoffs, when Rose is held to 7% 4th quarter shooting by a SF; again, everyone's tune will change. Again.
New season, still hatin :rolleyes:

[MASH Transit]

New season, still hatin :rolleyes:

New season. Will be sent home, again. :confusedshrug:

[SuperPippen]

New season. Will be sent home, again. :confusedshrug:

Regardless of whether or not that does transpire, I think we can all agree on one thing:

The Bulls are still better than the Thunder.

[themurph]

Id love Rose to set up teammates better. With time he may become better at it. But the NBA has gone from the traditional set position player to putting the best players on the court and running rock. He's improve many areas of his game, so I cant doubt this will be one that improves.

When was the last time a "traditional" starting PG actually led his team to a ring? The closet would be Rondo, right?

The rest?

Tony Parker (shoot first PG)
Billups (shoot first PG)
D. Fisher (shoot first PG)

Hell even Jason Kidd, who was the prototypical traditional PG of his era, became more of a spot up 3 point shooter during the Mavs' title run...

So really, is being "traditional" really that important?

Did it equal rings for Nash, CP3 (he's now becoming an offensive force, so all that may change)and Kidd during his prime years with NJ?

I think you give your team what they need. The Bulls were missing A LOT of shots off of Rose's passing...he could have easily gotten 10 assists....But that's another post...

[GOBB]

When was the last time a "traditional" starting PG actually led his team to a ring? The closet would be Rondo, right?

The rest?

Tony Parker (shoot first PG)
Billups (shoot first PG)
D. Fisher (shoot first PG)

Hell even Jason Kidd, who was the prototypical traditional PG of his era, became more of a spot up 3 point shooter during the Mavs' title run...

So really, is being "traditional" really that important?

Did it equal rings for Nash, CP3 (he's now becoming an offensive force, so all that may change)and Kidd during his prime years with NJ?

I think you give your team what they need. The Bulls were missing A LOT of shots off of Rose's passing...he could have easily gotten 10 assists....But that's another post...

That could apply to so many players tho. I think he could set players up with easier buckets than he has done so far in his career.

[themurph]

That could apply to so many players tho. I think he could set players up with easier buckets than he has done so far in his career.


I think your need to see players be "traditional" point guards is moot given the players I named..

And really, when Boozer and Asik are missing gorgeous passes TO THE BASKET, point blank baskets (I counted 4 alone from those two), then I can't really see where u r coming from....

No player is above criticism...I thought last season Rose was shooting the 3 too much...But passing? That's the least of his worries...

[Profound]

When was the last time a "traditional" starting PG actually led his team to a ring? The closet would be Rondo, right?

The rest?

Tony Parker (shoot first PG)
Billups (shoot first PG)
D. Fisher (shoot first PG)

Hell even Jason Kidd, who was the prototypical traditional PG of his era, became more of a spot up 3 point shooter during the Mavs' title run...

So really, is being "traditional" really that important?

Did it equal rings for Nash, CP3 (he's now becoming an offensive force, so all that may change)and Kidd during his prime years with NJ?

I think you give your team what they need. The Bulls were missing A LOT of shots off of Rose's passing...he could have easily gotten 10 assists....But that's another post...
I agree with you but at the end of the day it has nothing to do with being a scoring or pass first point guard, having a team that can play together on both ends of the floor for 48 minutes is what matters. Like you pointed out Rose lacked players that were able to take pressure off him to constantly score the ball. As for the comment about CP3 he's always been a scoring threat so no idea where this "becoming an offensive force" is coming from, he actually took a step back last season but that was mostly due to injuries so this year we just might see the 18-20ppg 8-10apg Cp3 again. I still think the Bulls lack ball handlers either in the starting or second unit besides Rose and maybe Watson(somewhat) who else can break down the defense off the dribble and make a play?.

[GOBB]

I think your need to see players be "traditional" point guards is moot given the players I named..

And really, when Boozer and Asik are missing gorgeous passes TO THE BASKET, point blank baskets (I counted 4 alone from those two), then I can't really see where u r coming from....

No player is above criticism...I thought last season Rose was shooting the 3 too much...But passing? That's the least of his worries...

I have no need to see traditional players. I already explained today the traditional position player has changed. Today it's about putting your best 5 on the court. In not the only person who feels Rose should set teammates up better. Fans and analysts (most former players) agree. That much was evident last postseason vs Miami. But some want to keep telling me how many assists he could have had and averaged if guys finished his passes. CP3 could have hs 20 assists last night if guys made every shot he handed them.

[kNIOKAS]

Joyner, did you run out of Durant threads to post in?

Rose>>>>>>Durant and it's not even close.
it's rather close, with durant having an edge. rose relies on athleticism, durant on his body type and shooting. durant has a skillset you cannot take away from him, while rose could suffer terribly from an injury.


both good players nevertheless. why you hating?

[dak121]

Kind of ironic how much smoother the Bulls offense runs when he sits, it looks fluid... but their problem in this situation is overall lack of talent from the second unit.

What a stupid-ass thing to say. Watson is atrocious as a PG. Bulls offense grinds to a screeching halt with him out there compared to Rose.

Aren't you that same Rose-hating jackass from RealGM? Still selling those bootleg Nike's in bumble**** Nebraska?

[Yung D-Will]

It's amazing the kind of conclusions people come to after 1 game.

[tobethdope]

considering u dont have 4 star-caliber got-to-guys, wudnt any coach rather take a player who can run an nba offense and is a all-star-SGlike scorer rather then a great pure passer pg?

besides, people hating on him are actually praising him, what sick skillz u must have to be allowed to play point on one of the best teams in the league if u actually cant play the 1?

[BarberSchool]

We know he can get his but how well does he feed his kids.That's a rather loaded, cold hearted, borderline racist societal metaphor.

[Tlova]

Props to Rose for working on his j.

[themurph]

I agree with you but at the end of the day it has nothing to do with being a scoring or pass first point guard, having a team that can play together on both ends of the floor for 48 minutes is what matters. Like you pointed out Rose lacked players that were able to take pressure off him to constantly score the ball. As for the comment about CP3 he's always been a scoring threat so no idea where this "becoming an offensive force" is coming from, he actually took a step back last season but that was mostly due to injuries so this year we just might see the 18-20ppg 8-10apg Cp3 again. I still think the Bulls lack ball handlers either in the starting or second unit besides Rose and maybe Watson(somewhat) who else can break down the defense off the dribble and make a play?.


U r right...I agree that the Bulls lack another true ball handler as well...But this^^^ has nothing to do with folks saying that Rose is not finding his teammates or such drivel like that...

That's two different things...

[hkfosho]

It's amazing the kind of conclusions people come to after 1 game.

these are the kinds of conclusions that ppl came to after watching him play for a full season last year /facepalm.

[themurph]

I have no need to see traditional players. I already explained today the traditional position player has changed. Today it's about putting your best 5 on the court. In not the only person who feels Rose should set teammates up better. Fans and analysts (most former players) agree. That much was evident last postseason vs Miami. But some want to keep telling me how many assists he could have had and averaged if guys finished his passes. CP3 could have hs 20 assists last night if guys made every shot he handed them.

Indeed, I've heard some NBA fans say that...However, usually they are people who don't understand the Bulls team's lack of go to guys beyond Rose or they just don't like the Bulls/Rose.....But analysts? Nah...I haven't seen/heard not too many of those...The truth is smart basketball analysts all understand that Rose (and we are judging him from last season, right...because he's only played one game thus far with Rip Hamilton) was passing to Keith Bogans, who was receiving the most open looks in the NBA but could only manage to shoot wide open 3's...They understood that unlike the Chris Paul's of the world Rose was his teams chief ball handler/creator/scorer. (Where is Rose's Jarret Jack or Chauncy Billups?)...They understood that Boozer wasn't right...Noah wasn't right...And that the only person that made his passes pay off on a consistent bases was Deng...

Again, we are not talking about players making every shot off of a Rose assist. That would be impossible, so such hyperbole is not needed....We are talking about point blank lay-ups. Point blank 12 footers....Point blank passes that Asik (who is a fine defensive player and goes strong to the basket at times) and others turn into turnovers because of the inconsistency of some Bulls players in the post....

I'll trust Hubie Brown, who praised Rose's passing IQ but still has the intelligence to understand the limited options that the kid was/is working with, over a few posters or "analysts" anytime...

[themurph]

these are the kinds of conclusions that ppl came to after watching him play for a full season last year /facepalm.


U mean they got all that from a full season of Rose passing to Keith Bogans? Brilliant....

[hkfosho]

U mean they got all that from a full season of Rose passing to Keith Bogans? Brilliant....

the fvck are u saying?

[themurph]

the fvck are u saying?

I'm laughing at the suggestion that people could come away with any conclusion that Rose could have been a better passer from watching last season...

[GOBB]

I'll trust Hubie Brown, who praised Rose's passing IQ but still has the intelligence to understand the limited options that the kid was/is working with, over a few posters or "analysts" anytime...

So why even care what other posters say if you trust Hubie Browns words which may differ from others? :confusedshrug: So every disagreement you'll run to whomever you trust and say "his word is better than yours"? Whats the point of even debating anything. I probably should just copy and paste who I trust and put it in quotes with my only reply being "this". Some of the analysts were former players that put years in the NBA. Guess Hubie overrules them. You dont have to agree with anyone but stop running behind another mans opinion all the time.

[hkfosho]

I'm laughing at the suggestion that people could come away with any conclusion that Rose could have been a better passer from watching last season...

7.7 apg with Bogans as your SG? Compared to his second season with 6apg? Do your research before trying to argue.

Anyways I aint disagreeing that he's not a pure PG... of course he isn't. He plays better as a score-first PG due to his athleticism and I'm sure the coaching staff encourages him to trying and score more than he wants to.

[Glide2keva]

If ISH existed half the points in the HOF probably would have had people saying they arent great "pure" point guards.

A points job is to implement the offense not be whatever someone looking to hate thinks hes supposed to be. ISH is full of people who cant wait to complain even if it works. While back some guy kept making topics hating on Chris Paul because he does most of his damage off screens. As if his great pick and roll game is a failing. While back people were saying Billups is a 2 because he scores more than anything and gets 5-6 assists.

These guys are there to win games. They are gonna have a section of fans ready to hate no matter how they play.

Rose has an off game or even if he has a good game and the Buls lose...hes hated on for not being what someone wants to define a point guard as(ignoring what they actually are). Other times he destroys a team in the playoffs and the opposing coach calls him a combo of Jordan, Kidd, and Billups as the Pacers coach did.

Cliche as it is to say...haters really are gonna hate.

Most of the people hating on Rose are gonna do it no matter what happens even if he is an all NBA, MVP, future hall of fame point(assuming health).

Cant please everyone. best to not try.
Epic post is epic.

[Hernando]

Derrick Rose is what you call a Combo-Guard. He can do both jobs, and there is nothing wrong with that. The game is changing, and he will do what he has to in order to get the win. If anything, he is better than any PG in the league averaging 1 less assist last year than Chris Paul, but put up about 9 more points as him. Also throw in the fact that Cp3, Steve Nash, J Kidd have all been in the league for more years than DRose. None of them lead their team to the best team in the league in 3 years, or won MVP. Say all you want about the MVP choosing, it is your unproffesional opinions against Proffessionals that Disect the game left and right. In reality, your opinion means little, only on forums.

[GOBB]

Derrick Rose is what you call a Combo-Guard. He can do both jobs, and there is nothing wrong with that. The game is changing, and he will do what he has to in order to get the win. If anything, he is better than any PG in the league averaging 1 less assist last year than Chris Paul, but put up about 9 more points as him. Also throw in the fact that Cp3, Steve Nash, J Kidd have all been in the league for more years than DRose. None of them lead their team to the best team in the league in 3 years, or won MVP. Say all you want about the MVP choosing, it is your unproffesional opinions against Proffessionals that Disect the game left and right. In reality, your opinion means little, only on forums.

Silly post which is laced with opinionated mumbo jumbo where after you finish reading? Means little here on this forum.

[Hernando]

Silly post which is laced with opinionated mumbo jumbo where after you finish reading? Means little here on this forum.
I am talking about the MVP choosing. -___- How about you read a little before you try to summarize my paragraph. :facepalm

[GOBB]

I am talking about the MVP choosing. -___- How about you read a little before you try to summarize my paragraph. :facepalm

What makes sportswriters and broadcasters opinion more than fans unprofessional opinions? What criteria does each go by. 120 voted. Do you even know half of the people who voted? Do you even know if half of the people voted was able to watch every game from MVP candidates? Is there an East Coast-West Coast biased attatched? If you struggle to answer these questions then I'd understand. I heard Steve Kerr yesterday give his opinion throughout the course of a game and he sounded like a troll here on ISH.

"Boston really miss Shaq imposing physical prescence out there". Given the fact Shaq didnt play close to half the games last year? Awesome observation there Kerr.

[themurph]

What makes sportswriters and broadcasters opinion more than fans unprofessional opinions?

I don't know? Maybe because they have more access, inside information and more often times than not have forgotten more about basketball (Hubie Brown, Dr. Jack, Marv, hell, even a Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith, Magic Johnson and the like, ect...)than most of us can remember...

That sort of expertise should be respected...

[GOBB]

I don't know? Maybe because they have more access, inside information and more often times than not have forgotten more about basketball (Hubie Brown, Dr. Jack, Marv, hell, even a Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith, Magic Johnson and the like, ect...)than most of us can remember...

That sort of expertise should be respected...

Its one thing to respect it as in take it in and acknowledge thier views. Its another to respect it as the bible. Also from listening to these respected individuals there are times they are wrong. There are times 2 of them would disagree on a topic as their opinions clash. When it comes to rebounding I pay attention to Charles Barkley because he is not only experienced in rebounding but was one of the best to do it. When it comes to why he thinks Durant is the best player in the game? We'll agree to disagree. I respect folks who played/coach the game of basketball but I dont treat everything they say as bible as pass it off as my own opinion. Kenny Smith said this so therefore I'll agree with it and argue his opinion vs another persons. And in the end I'll feel confident and secure with my argument because it comes from Kenny Smith and the other person opinion was something from his own thoughts.

How many games do sportswriters watch during the course of a season? I'm a fan with access to the games online, league pass and I cant even watch all of them. And I'm a fan who watches where they actually have a job to report what they are watching. Do they tape them? Do they read boxscores and/or other sportswriters thoughts on game they missed and go off that?

Its silly imo to disregard fans opinions over a sportswriter or even broadcaster. That means that fan cant think for themselves on what they see, what they feel and have to go by what another human being opinion is. I'm not close minded to what Dr Jack Ramsey has to say. I even like to hear his thoughts on the game, players especially from the past. But it wont stop me from disagreeing with something he says. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. Even Kenny Smith and Charles Barkley do that. Why cant a fan vs a sportswriter?

Kblaze and I'll use him because he's a popular poster and well respected here across the board. What makes his opinion any less than a sportswriter? Marv Albert opinion on the game holds more weight than his? Personally I wouldnt agree with that at all. You got posters like jlauber, JMT, Thorp, psileas who present stuff on guys from the past which is interesting. LOKI knows MJ better than MJ. Grinder can tell you about some kid in the amazon jungle who has a mean backspin. We have fans who have a clue about the game of bball and its players. I wont look at thier opinions any lesser than a sportswriter.

Thats where I stand on that.

[bizil]

First thing is first, Rose is a great player one of the top 10 in the L. He's a great scorer and has proved to have the alpha dog gene. However, he happens to play the PG position. Which has a premium on being a floor general and creating scoring opportunities for their teammates. I feel like most of the top PG's ever like Magic, Big O, Isiah, Payton, Clyde, Tiny, and Nash, have the combo of being able to be an alpha dog scorer AND run the team like a great floor general should. The other GOAT PG's like Stockton, Kidd, and Cousy weren't in the same scoring realm, but as floor generals and running a team they were as good as it gets.

Guys like Rose and Iverson are very good passers. But they see the game differently. They have excel more at scoring than they do as floor generals. The are more than capable of playing PG, but typically u want your PG be like a Magic, Isiah, CP3, or DWill type who is a true floor general AND can turn into an alpha dog when its needed. Or u want your PG to be a pure floor general like Stockton, Rondo, Cousy, or Kidd. Guys like Rose, Westbrook, and Parker might be better off in a combo guard role. Or maybe flat out should be shooting guards and paired with a bigger PG that is 6'4 and up.

But don't get it twisted, Rose is still a very good passer and floor general. But what makes him GREAT is his scoring ability. Unlike an Isiah who was a great scorer AND great passer-floor general all in one. Larry Brown moved AI to SG because he felt AI would be better off concentrating on being great at what he does and that's scoring the rock. AI was still a very good passer and would have done fine at PG. But SG might have been his best position given his mentality. If Rose or AI were 6'6, they would have been SG's flat out. But could swing to PG as well. On the other hand a guy like Magic was 6'9 and his best position was still PG. Because Magic had the knack to be a great floor general who looked to hook up others first. I don't think it's so much that Rose is selfish (he's a great young man it seems), its just the way he sees the game at this point.

[themurph]

Its one thing to respect it as in take it in and acknowledge thier views. Its another to respect it as the bible. Also from listening to these respected individuals there are times they are wrong. There are times 2 of them would disagree on a topic as their opinions clash. When it comes to rebounding I pay attention to Charles Barkley because he is not only experienced in rebounding but was one of the best to do it. When it comes to why he thinks Durant is the best player in the game? We'll agree to disagree. I respect folks who played/coach the game of basketball but I dont treat everything they say as bible as pass it off as my own opinion. Kenny Smith said this so therefore I'll agree with it and argue his opinion vs another persons. And in the end I'll feel confident and secure with my argument because it comes from Kenny Smith and the other person opinion was something from his own thoughts.

How many games do sportswriters watch during the course of a season? I'm a fan with access to the games online, league pass and I cant even watch all of them. And I'm a fan who watches where they actually have a job to report what they are watching. Do they tape them? Do they read boxscores and/or other sportswriters thoughts on game they missed and go off that?

Its silly imo to disregard fans opinions over a sportswriter or even broadcaster. That means that fan cant think for themselves on what they see, what they feel and have to go by what another human being opinion is. I'm not close minded to what Dr Jack Ramsey has to say. I even like to hear his thoughts on the game, players especially from the past. But it wont stop me from disagreeing with something he says. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. Even Kenny Smith and Charles Barkley do that. Why cant a fan vs a sportswriter?

Kblaze and I'll use him because he's a popular poster and well respected here across the board. What makes his opinion any less than a sportswriter? Marv Albert opinion on the game holds more weight than his? Personally I wouldnt agree with that at all. You got posters like jlauber, JMT, Thorp, psileas who present stuff on guys from the past which is interesting. LOKI knows MJ better than MJ. Grinder can tell you about some kid in the amazon jungle who has a mean backspin. We have fans who have a clue about the game of bball and its players. I wont look at thier opinions any lesser than a sportswriter.

Thats where I stand on that.

I like a lot of the posters around here...They are passionate fans who are not afraid to say what's on their mind...But most of them indeed have agendas...Which is cool because we all have our little biases, right? And even some professional NBA analysts have their own biases...But again, I will tend to listen to a Hubie Brown than some 16 year old kid who just wants to make it known that he thinks Rose is a lackluster passer or that Kobe is a dog or that Durant can't get his own shot...or that Bosh is soft, ect...When I hear things like that it gives me the impression that it's less about opinions and more about something else...

[GOBB]

I like a lot of the posters around here...They are passionate fans who are not afraid to say what's on their mind...But most of them indeed have agendas...Which is cool because we all have our little biases, right? And even some professional NBA analysts have their own biases...But again, I will tend to listen to a Hubie Brown than some 16 year old kid who just wants to make it known that he thinks Rose is a lackluster passer or that Kobe is a dog or that Durant can't get his own shot...or that Bosh is soft, ect...When I hear things like that it gives me the impression that it's less about opinions and more about something else...

We can definately agree on that.

[themurph]

First thing is first, Rose is a great player one of the top 10 in the L. He's a great scorer and has proved to have the alpha dog gene. However, he happens to play the PG position. Which has a premium on being a floor general and creating scoring opportunities for their teammates. I feel like most of the top PG's ever like Magic, Big O, Isiah, Payton, Clyde, Tiny, and Nash, have the combo of being able to be an alpha dog scorer AND run the team like a great floor general should. The other GOAT PG's like Stockton, Kidd, and Cousy weren't in the same scoring realm, but as floor generals and running a team they were as good as it gets.

Guys like Rose and Iverson are very good passers. But they see the game differently. They have excel more at scoring than they do as floor generals. The are more than capable of playing PG, but typically u want your PG be like a Magic, Isiah, CP3, or DWill type who is a true floor general AND can turn into an alpha dog when its needed. Or u want your PG to be a pure floor general like Stockton, Rondo, Cousy, or Kidd. Guys like Rose, Westbrook, and Parker might be better off in a combo guard role. Or maybe flat out should be shooting guards and paired with a bigger PG that is 6'4 and up.

But don't get it twisted, Rose is still a very good passer and floor general. But what makes him GREAT is his scoring ability. Unlike an Isiah who was a great scorer AND great passer-floor general all in one. Larry Brown moved AI to SG because he felt AI would be better off concentrating on being great at what he does and that's scoring the rock. AI was still a very good passer and would have done fine at PG. But SG might have been his best position given his mentality. If Rose or AI were 6'6, they would have been SG's flat out. But could swing to PG as well. On the other hand a guy like Magic was 6'9 and his best position was still PG. Because Magic had the knack to be a great floor general who looked to hook up others first. I don't think it's so much that Rose is selfish (he's a great young man it seems), its just the way he sees the game at this point.


I know I sound like a broken record...But ask yourself this question...Beyond Magic, Big O and the old school like, who was the last pure PG to actually lead/ or had a profound impact on his team winning a ring? Maybe Rondo, right?

The rest? Nash didn't win it...Stockton didn't win it. Payton didn't either (not until his twilight years with the Heat, when he was a role player)...And Kidd became more of a spot up 3 point shooter on that Mavs team...And the best little big man to ever play the game, I. Thomas, was not always viewed as a pass first, traditional PG...At times his game (very offensive minded) was a precursor to Rose, Billups, Tony Parker and the like...And the last two names won championships with that style of play...

Oh yeah...Iverson was an undersized SG, which made his impact all the more impressive...Comparing him to Rose, who would rather past than shoot (his coach is the one that made him realize that he has to take advantage of his offensive gifts) is a little shaky, at best...

[rodman91]

1. A point guard is still a guard.
2. People act like this makes him a bad player.
3. He was the MVP and is an absolute beast. Does it matter where he plays?

This. :applause:

[TheBluest]

Bulls offense looking horrific again and Rosey is getting bodied up by a bum ankle Peter Pan

[nathanjizzle]

^^annoying as ****.

[bizil]

I know I sound like a broken record...But ask yourself this question...Beyond Magic, Big O and the old school like, who was the last pure PG to actually lead/ or had a profound impact on his team winning a ring? Maybe Rondo, right?

The rest? Nash didn't win it...Stockton didn't win it. Payton didn't either (not until his twilight years with the Heat, when he was a role player)...And Kidd became more of a spot up 3 point shooter on that Mavs team...And the best little big man to ever play the game, I. Thomas, was not always viewed as a pass first, traditional PG...At times his game (very offensive minded) was a precursor to Rose, Billups, Tony Parker and the like...And the last two names won championships with that style of play...

Oh yeah...Iverson was an undersized SG, which made his impact all the more impressive...Comparing him to Rose, who would rather past than shoot (his coach is the one that made him realize that he has to take advantage of his offensive gifts) is a little shaky, at best...

Im not knocking Rose at all. I said he was a top ten player in the L. But at PG, there is a premium for assists, passing, faciltating, whatever u wanna call it. Isiah was always a true floor general and PG first. But he could also play the Rose or Parker role but more effeciently. He was great at both facets, unlike Rose at this point.

AI came in the L as a PG first and did very good. But Larry Brown knew AI had the itch to wanna score and score often. So LB moved him to SG. Larry Brown is the one who switched AI to SG. When u have a PG like Snow at 6'3 or 6'4 that can defend twos, its a great role. Comparing Rose to AI in some ways isn't shaky when looking at their mentalities. Im not saying AI and Rose were common copies.

[bizil]

Bob Cousy had profound effects on title teams. He was a pure PG all the way. He might not have been the best player, but he was the second best. Of course u can win a ring with a pure or pass first PG. Even though Big O, Magic, and Isiah scored a lotta points, they were just as great as running the show as Stockton or Kidd. But a guy like Isiah could takeover a game scoring whenever he needed or wanted to. Its almost like being able to be a great passing quarterback and scrambling QB all in one like Steve Young. Rose is a great scrambler but is a very good passer-facilitator. Isiah is of the Young cloth. As is Magic, Nash, Big O, Payton, Paul, D Will, etc.