Carmelo Anthony is the Most Overrated Player in Basketball

[brahmabull117]

For his career, the dude has given up the same amount of points per possession on offense as he has allowed on defense (107). You can't make the case that he played on bad teams either - Denver has been a good team now for a while (and certainly no worse than the role players Lebron played with in Cleveland or what Wade played with before lebron got there)


He's not an extremely efficient offensive player and he's a very mediocre defender. Truth be told, he's never done anything to deserve the kind of hype and recognition that he gets around the league (Simply because NBA fans love a guy who can score a bunch of points)


To me, there's a world of difference between the top 5 guys in the league (Wade, Lebron, Rose, Howard, Durant) and both of the stars in New York. In Wade/Lebron/Howard's case, they are all efficient offensive players who are equally dominant on defense, In Durant/Rose's case, they are 2 great young players showing a growing interest in playing solid defense (Rose is down to 100 points allowed per 100 possessions on defense after giving up 103 on last year's equally dominant bulls defensive team)


We need to stop this idea that simply being a good offensive player can make one a superstar - to me you're never a real superstar until you show the same intensity on both sides of the court. That's why Carmelo is very overrated and so is his running partner Amare

[Optimus Prime]

Half the forum will agree with you, the other half will fight to the bitter end disagreeing with you.

I happen to agree with you. Dude is a ball-hog chucker who plays no D. However, he's not even the most overrated player on his own team. :lol

[brahmabull117]

Half the forum will agree with you, the other half will fight to the bitter end disagreeing with you.

I happen to agree with you. Dude is a ball-hog chucker who plays no D. However, he's not even the most overrated player on his own team. :lol



I think Carmelo gets more praise than Amare so he's definately more overrated to me. Amare's a guy who can be a very efficient offensive player with a decent passing point guard but he's not much better on defense than 'Melo




I mean do I want Carmelo on my team?? Maybe if I got a team filled with a bunch of great defensive players like the bulls where I can put a shooting guard like Ronnie Brewer out there to play defense on Lebron. Do I want Carmelo otherwise?? It's just not worth it in most cases

[Sarcastic]

Derrick Rose's offensive and defensive rating are just about equal too.

[Rnbizzle]

I like to write paragraphs with 5 lines of white between them too.







Because I can.

[PrimeJohnnyDepp]

I hate this guy with a passion, New York as a CITY went downhill for me because of the Knicks, they had pretentious actor students and communist hobos before but this one took the cake for me. I so loved New York of the 90's.

[brahmabull117]

Derrick Rose's offensive and defensive rating are just about equal too.


Rose was + 10 last year in terms of points allowed on offense/defense per 100 possessions. It's up to + 17 this year - you gotta remember how young he is and how awful some of those bulls teams were when he first started

[ThatsGame]

Rose is not Top 5. :facepalm

[Sarcastic]

Rose was + 10 last year in terms of points allowed on offense/defense per 100 possessions. It's up to + 17 this year - you gotta remember how young he is and how awful some of those bulls teams were when he first started

Carmelo is +8 this year.

[Sarcastic]

The year before Carmelo got to Denver, they were a 17 win team. They were in the playoffs the next year.

[brahmabull117]

Carmelo is +8 this year.


that's a tiny sample size



my point was that you can't look at Rose's career numbers yet because he's so young. Yet Carmelo's been in the league for how many years now without showing any real improvement as a passer or defender??

[Optimus Prime]

I think Carmelo gets more praise than Amare so he's definately more overrated to me. Amare's a guy who can be a very efficient offensive player with a decent passing point guard but he's not much better on defense than 'Melo




I mean do I want Carmelo on my team?? Maybe if I got a team filled with a bunch of great defensive players like the bulls where I can put a shooting guard like Ronnie Brewer out there to play defense on Lebron. Do I want Carmelo otherwise?? It's just not worth it in most cases

What? Look I strongly dislike Melo, but the dude is a pure scorer. The reason he's overrated is because all he does is score...he literally does nothing else to make his team better.

Now, the reason Amare is more overrated than him is because Amare NEEDS a great PG to make him good. Melo is good on his own because...well...all he does is iso and jack up shots all day, but at least he doesn't need a HoF PG making plays for him all game. :lol

Where do you want Melo on your team? You put him on a defensive team like the Bucks that severely lacks scoring, and watch out. I believe he would have been great on the Bulls too. But, he wanted to go to New York, even though the Knicks as currently constructed, D'Antoni, Amare, etc. are so totally wrong for his skillset.

[GOBB]

Rose is not Top 5. :facepalm

Its arguable.

[FourthTenor]

Derrick Rose's offensive and defensive rating are just about equal too.

I'd take Rose over Melo simply because I think Rose has a better attitude, more coachable, better leader etc. and regardless of what the numbers say, my eyes say Rose is more efficient. But frankly they are both overrated. They effect the game by taking two point shots in volume. Eric Gordon and Jamal Crawford do that too. Rudy Gay does it. A lot of guys do it. Superstars effect the game in multiple ways at a high level. Scoring and rebounding, passing and scoring, shooting and defense, etc. Guys like Amare, Melo, Rose, and so forth make highlights because they get the last touch. It's all the work by the team that earns the wins. People who just tune in to ESPN the next morning think these guys are irreplaceable difference makers

Rose has a defense behind him that acts like quick-sand to penetrators, Anthony has a terrible defense around him and is a part of it as well.

It's a team game. People think players like Rose and Melo can make bad or average teams into contenders? Idiot people relying on sportscenter for their opinions instead of looking at how basketball works and thinking for themselves.

[GOBB]

What? Look I strongly dislike Melo, but the dude is a pure scorer. The reason he's overrated is because all he does is score...he literally does nothing else to make his team better.

Now, the reason Amare is more overrated than him is because Amare NEEDS a great PG to make him good. Melo is good on his own because...well...all he does is iso and jack up shots all day, but at least he doesn't need a HoF PG making plays for him all game. :lol

Where do you want Melo on your team? You put him on a defensive team like the Bucks that severely lacks scoring, and watch out. I believe he would have been great on the Bulls too. But, he wanted to go to New York, even though the Knicks as currently constructed, D'Antoni, Amare, etc. are so totally wrong for his skillset.

He avg 25ppg last year without this great PG you speak of. :confusedshrug:

[Optimus Prime]

He avg 25ppg last year without this great PG you speak of. :confusedshrug:

It's called being the #1, #2 and #3 option on a bad team until Melo arrived in the trade. :confusedshrug:

[brahmabull117]

I'd take Rose over Melo simply because I think Rose has a better attitude, more coachable, better leader etc. and regardless of what the numbers say, my eyes say Rose is more efficient. But frankly they are both overrated. They effect the game by taking two point shots in volume. Rose has a defense behind him that acts like quick-sand to penetrators, Anthony has a terrible defense around him and is a part of it as well.

It's a team game. People think players like Rose and Melo can make bad or average teams into contenders? Idiot people relying on sportscenter for their opinions instead of looking at how basketball works and thinking for themselves.


Rose is an excellent passer, a very unselfish player and a decent defensive PG who is working hard every game to improve. I showed the stat to where he's gone from allowing 103 points per 100 possessions last year to 100 this year (tiny sample size but it just shows his willingness to improve on defense)



he's shown more improvements in non scoring areas in 2 seasons than Carmelo has in 10 seasons

[FourthTenor]

The year before Carmelo got to Denver, they were a 17 win team. They were in the playoffs the next year.

Was he the only new addition that year?

[GOBB]

I'd take Rose over Melo simply because I think Rose has a better attitude, more coachable, better leader etc. and regardless of what the numbers say, my eyes say Rose is more efficient. But frankly they are both overrated. They effect the game by taking two point shots in volume. Eric Gordon and Jamal Crawford do that too. Rudy Gay does it. A lot of guys do it. Superstars effect the game in multiple ways at a high level. Scoring and rebounding, passing and scoring, shooting and defense, etc. Guys like Amare, Melo, Rose, and so forth make highlights because they get the last touch. It's all the work by the team that earns the wins. People who just tune in to ESPN the next morning think these guys are irreplaceable difference makers

Rose has a defense behind him that acts like quick-sand to penetrators, Anthony has a terrible defense around him and is a part of it as well.

It's a team game. People think players like Rose and Melo can make bad or average teams into contenders? Idiot people relying on sportscenter for their opinions instead of looking at how basketball works and thinking for themselves.

You can add Blake Griffin to this post as well.

[Funnyfuka]

For his career, the dude has given up the same amount of points per possession on offense as he has allowed on defense (107). You can't make the case that he played on bad teams either - Denver has been a good team now for a while (and certainly no worse than the role players Lebron played with in Cleveland or what Wade played with before lebron got there)


He's not an extremely efficient offensive player and he's a very mediocre defender. Truth be told, he's never done anything to deserve the kind of hype and recognition that he gets around the league (Simply because NBA fans love a guy who can score a bunch of points)


To me, there's a world of difference between the top 5 guys in the league (Wade, Lebron, Rose, Howard, Durant) and both of the stars in New York. In Wade/Lebron/Howard's case, they are all efficient offensive players who are equally dominant on defense, In Durant/Rose's case, they are 2 great young players showing a growing interest in playing solid defense (Rose is down to 100 points allowed per 100 possessions on defense after giving up 103 on last year's equally dominant bulls defensive team)


We need to stop this idea that simply being a good offensive player can make one a superstar - to me you're never a real superstar until you show the same intensity on both sides of the court. That's why Carmelo is very overrated and so is his running partner Amare

as overrated as amare. They dont even complement each others, they re basically both offense only guys with 0 defense. With dantoni as a coach who focus on run and gun/offense only, it's no wonder they always get their sorry ass handed to themsleves by teams that know how to defend.

[Sarcastic]

I'd take Rose over Melo simply because I think Rose has a better attitude, more coachable, better leader etc. and regardless of what the numbers say, my eyes say Rose is more efficient. But frankly they are both overrated. They effect the game by taking two point shots in volume. Eric Gordon and Jamal Crawford do that too. Rudy Gay does it. A lot of guys do it. Superstars effect the game in multiple ways at a high level. Scoring and rebounding, passing and scoring, shooting and defense, etc. Guys like Amare, Melo, Rose, and so forth make highlights because they get the last touch. It's all the work by the team that earns the wins. People who just tune in to ESPN the next morning think these guys are irreplaceable difference makers

Rose has a defense behind him that acts like quick-sand to penetrators, Anthony has a terrible defense around him and is a part of it as well.

It's a team game. People think players like Rose and Melo can make bad or average teams into contenders? Idiot people relying on sportscenter for their opinions instead of looking at how basketball works and thinking for themselves.

Rose is more efficient? That's the one thing he isn't.

[bmulls]

I don't think he's overrated. It's not like anybody has him in their top 5, we all know he's a great scorer and slightly below average defender.

[Optimus Prime]

Uh...Rose DID make an average/bad team into a contender. What would the Bulls do without him?

Carlos Boozer? :roll:
Luol Deng? :lol
Joakim Noah? :oldlol:

Some people severely underestimate the effect a superstar has for your team. The opposing defense has to be entirely planned around them. They can make plays if they get doubled, or they will hit the big shots if they are not.

[brahmabull117]

Rose is more efficient? That's the one thing he isn't.



Rose's efficiency has improved massively as time goes - he's up to 58% true shooting percentage this year (up from .550 last year which was an improvement on .530 the year before))



As it is now, he creates 117 points per 100 possessions - a number that Carmelo has never reached. Also gotta keep in mind Rose is still improving and likely hasn't reached his peak in scoring or efficiency



With that being said - reason I'll take Rose by a mile over Carmelo is Rose's impact as a passer (he's got great court vision) and his growing improvements on defense. Rose is a real winner - a guy who understands that he's gotta be great in every area, not just try to become a big name by scoring a bunch of points

[GOBB]

It's called being the #1, #2 and #3 option on a bad team until Melo arrived in the trade. :confusedshrug:

So you're going to change your argument whenever it conflicts with your initial one? You said Amare needs a great PG to make him look good. I showed you he looked good without a great PG and then you tell me that. So everytime your argument gets shot down you'll find a new argument to put up? Is that it? Let me know.

And what big man doesnt benefit from having a good PG in general let alone great? Karl Malone anyone? I'm lost. We can knock Amare on things like defense, rebounding. But scoring? He's just knows how to put that round ball in the cylinder with a great PG or without. Only way that gets prevented is because of injury.

With Melo amare was still scoring. Avg 24 a game until he got injured.

[NuggetsFan]

The year before Carmelo got to Denver, they were a 17 win team. They were in the playoffs the next year.

17 win team had Camby who didn't even play half a season. No Andre Miller. Skita was actually playing sizeable minutes that year too, next year pretty much all went away. Heck pretty sure Skita was starting games that season :oldlol: . Posey didn't even play many games during that 17 win season either. Team was trash.

Next year team was just better. You had Camby healthy. Nene got better. Boykins played good. Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard. You throw Melo in there and it's obvious why they improved so much.

Honestly look up who was starting games on that 17 win team. It was scrub city...

[FourthTenor]

Rose is an excellent passer, a very unselfish player and a decent defensive PG who is working hard every game to improve. I showed the stat to where he's gone from allowing 103 points per 100 possessions last year to 100 this year (tiny sample size but it just shows his willingness to improve on defense)



he's shown more improvements in non scoring areas in 2 seasons than Carmelo has in 10 seasons

Definitely, and I grant that. I personally would not say he is an excellent passer but he definitely takes the right approach to improving his game and doing what his team needs.

Carmelo Anthony is just undisciplined and has a low IQ. There's no sugarcoating it. He has always been like that. The Nuggets transitioned beautifully when he left (George Karl was practically singing hallelujah) and meanwhile the Knicks started struggling even more when he shows up in exchange for those 'throw-away' role players.

He IS overrated. I've been calling him the league's most overrated player for years now. It's always been true. Its not like I WANT to see him fail, but I certainly feel justified now that more people are starting to see what I've said all along (as often becomes the case)

[FourthTenor]

You can add Blake Griffin to this post as well.

So Griffin can only score? His career rebounding stats aren't exceptional?

[no pun intended]

What? Look I strongly dislike Melo, but the dude is a pure scorer. The reason he's overrated is because all he does is score...he literally does nothing else to make his team better.

Now, the reason Amare is more overrated than him is because Amare NEEDS a great PG to make him good. Melo is good on his own because...well...all he does is iso and jack up shots all day, but at least he doesn't need a HoF PG making plays for him all game. :lol

Where do you want Melo on your team? You put him on a defensive team like the Bucks that severely lacks scoring, and watch out. I believe he would have been great on the Bulls too. But, he wanted to go to New York, even though the Knicks as currently constructed, D'Antoni, Amare, etc. are so totally wrong for his skillset.
Durant is a pure scorer as well. In my honest opinion, Durant is more overrated.

[NuggetsFan]

Was he the only new addition that year?

Nope. Two teams were completely different.

[Optimus Prime]

Durant is a pure scorer as well. In my honest opinion, Durant is more overrated.

:no: :facepalm

Durant = Back-to-back scoring titles, WCF
Melo = GONE FISHIN

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTw-RhAnsfQcbCFxF6x7TXS9gmIkx5ZyagdVtpmBThf3CfojmP1VQV y4gSbDQ

Edit: Why do my images never show right and always end up as links? :(

[Sarcastic]

17 win team had Camby who didn't even play half a season. No Andre Miller. Skita was actually playing sizeable minutes that year too, next year pretty much all went away. Heck pretty sure Skita was starting games that season :oldlol: . Posey didn't even play many games during that 17 win season either. Team was trash.

Next year team was just better. You had Camby healthy. Nene got better. Boykins played good. Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard. You throw Melo in there and it's obvious why they improved so much.

Honestly look up who was starting games on that 17 win team. It was scrub city...

It wasn't that much better the next year. Not 20+ games better.

[brahmabull117]

Definitely, and I grant that. I personally would not say he is an excellent passer but he definitely takes the right approach to improving his game and doing what his team needs.

Carmelo Anthony is just undisciplined and has a low IQ. There's no sugarcoating it. He has always been like that. The Nuggets transitioned beautifully when he left (George Karl was practically singing hallelujah) and meanwhile the Knicks started struggling even more when he shows up in exchange for those 'throw-away' role players.

He IS overrated. I've been calling him the league's most overrated player for years now. It's always been true. Its not like I WANT to see him fail, but I certainly feel justified now that more people are starting to see what I've said all along (as often becomes the case)


I don't think it's a Low IQ, I think he's just a guy who doesn't care enough to improve in other areas except for offense



There's 2 different types of superstars - there's guys who settle for being great scorers and guys who want to become truly great all around players. Lebron and Wade are in that great all around player category and Rose is showing the work ethic to get into that same category as well

[GOBB]

So Griffin can only score? His career rebounding stats aren't exceptional?

Carlos Boozers are too. Like you said in your post regardless what the numbers say...

"It's a team game. People think players like Rose and Melo can make bad or average teams into contenders? Idiot people relying on sportscenter for their opinions instead of looking at how basketball works and thinking for themselves"

That applies to Blake and his exceptional rebounding.

[Optimus Prime]

So you're going to change your argument whenever it conflicts with your initial one? You said Amare needs a great PG to make him look good. I showed you he looked good without a great PG and then you tell me that. So everytime your argument gets shot down you'll find a new argument to put up? Is that it? Let me know.

And what big man doesnt benefit from having a good PG in general let alone great? Karl Malone anyone? I'm lost. We can knock Amare on things like defense, rebounding. But scoring? He's just knows how to put that round ball in the cylinder with a great PG or without. Only way that gets prevented is because of injury.

With Melo amare was still scoring. Avg 24 a game until he got injured.

I'm surprised that you didn't try to BET ME that Amare is the GOAT Playmaking Big Man! :rolleyes:

[Chaddai]

Carmelo is a good/talented player, but he's like the biggest ball stopper in the nba on offense :rolleyes:

[GOBB]

I'm surprised that you didn't try to BET ME that Amare is the GOAT Playmaking Big Man! :rolleyes:

Actually I almost made a bet with you that you wouldnt address, counter anything I said to you in my post. Should have edited and added it. Would have won given the post I'm replying to right now. :rolleyes:

Here is your new argument i'm willing to BET

"Amare was still avg the same amount of pts with Carmelo because the Knicks defense sucked. So they had more possessions on offense for Amare to score. So he didnt need a great PG to make him look good (argument #1). He didnt need to be the #1, #2, #3 option (argument #2). He just needs to neglect his defense like everyone else and just score which isnt hard to do when you're giving up a millions points per game (argument #3 which is my BET that looks gold)."

[brahmabull117]

Uh...Rose DID make an average/bad team into a contender. What would the Bulls do without him?

Carlos Boozer? :roll:
Luol Deng? :lol
Joakim Noah? :oldlol:

Some people severely underestimate the effect a superstar has for your team. The opposing defense has to be entirely planned around them. They can make plays if they get doubled, or they will hit the big shots if they are not.


Rose's offensive impact is absolutely incredible



Replace him with an average point guard and the bulls offense is the worst in the league - there's really not one guy on there who can get his own shot or take over ballgames. Rose nearly single handedly makes them a decent offense (bulls are top 10 in the league in scoring).There's times when he goes on the bench and the bulls offense just slows down to a grinding halt and can't get anything done



and Hell, even when Rose doesn't get any credit for offense, he often times has a big influence on why the bulls get a bucket (IE situations where he gets double teamed, passes to Noah at free throw line who then kicks it to deng for a 3 or to Boozer for a layup - the only reason that's happening is because teams fear Rose's offense)

[Droid101]

Amar'e is shooting his worst from the field since like, 2003. Seriously Gobb, Amar'e is a decent scorer, but he's much better with Nash feeding him free lobs.

[FourthTenor]

"It's a team game. People think players like Rose and Melo can make bad or average teams into contenders? Idiot people relying on sportscenter for their opinions instead of looking at how basketball works and thinking for themselves"

That applies to Blake and his exceptional rebounding.

That part definitely applies. Blake had an incredible season last year and the Clips watched the playoffs. He can't do it alone. Only guys who can come close to doing it alone this decade (they didnt, but they can do the most 'carrying' because they're that good) are prime Shaq, Duncan, Bron.

Griffin is DEFINITELY better than Amare and Carmelo. I'd be happy to explain why if you need me to. But of course he's not a one man team.

I'm not sure why you brought him up. I guess because when you can't have intelligent basketball discourse, you have to resort to "my team vs your team" and meaningless team-based trash talk to participate.

Unless there was some other reason I'm missing...

[NuggetsFan]

It wasn't that much better the next year. Not 20+ games better.

Do you remember? It was far back but that 17 win team was like trash. Would be easily the worst team in the league this year. Juwan Howard was the man. Camby\Posey were banged up. You had Skita .. one of the biggest draft busts of all time starting games at some point. Not Kwame bust level .. but like literally out of the NBA bust level. That team was literally filled with names that nobody would know. Like guy's who didn't survive in the NBA. You got what? Juwan Howard, Nene and Rodney White? :oldlol:

Next year you had Nene who got better. Camby was healthy most of the year so right there that's your 10 boards 2+ blocks a game. Andre Miller has proved time and time again he can impact games. Voshon Lenard was actually decent, not sure if this was the same year but that one year was actually in the 3 point shoot out. Boykins is a decent bench player.

Biggest difference is one team had a legit lineup and a roster while the other plugged and play through out the entire year.

20+ game difference? Melo was HUGE obviously. Gave them that legit scorer even as a rookie. Wasn't 20+ game impact by himself like you keep implying. Was just apart of an improved team.

[Optimus Prime]

Actually I almost made a bet with you that you wouldnt address, counter anything I said to you in my post. Should have edited and added it. Would have won given the post I'm replying to right now. :rolleyes:

What needs to be said? Amare put up big numbers because he was literally the only offensive option they had, but the team still stank.

Amare was a better player with Nash making plays FOR HIM. Without him, he put up numbers (BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD), but they were just empty meh numbers.

Nash + Amare + D'Antoni = WCF
Melo + Amare + D'Antoni = First round sweep

[Optimus Prime]

Rose's offensive impact is absolutely incredible



Replace him with an average point guard and the bulls offense is the worst in the league - there's really not one guy on there who can get his own shot or take over ballgames. Rose nearly single handedly makes them a decent offense (bulls are top 10 in the league in scoring).There's times when he goes on the bench and the bulls offense just slows down to a grinding halt and can't get anything done



and Hell, even when Rose doesn't get any credit for offense, he often times has a big influence on why the bulls get a bucket (IE situations where he gets double teamed, passes to Noah at free throw line who then kicks it to deng for a 3 or to Boozer for a layup - the only reason that's happening is because teams fear Rose's offense)

The Bulls offense is painful to watch even WITH Rose playing. It's literally four guys standing around watching Rose and waiting for him to do something incredible (which he usually does).

[Optimus Prime]

Amar'e is shooting his worst from the field since like, 2003. Seriously Gobb, Amar'e is a decent scorer, but he's much better with Nash feeding him free lobs.

GOBB just argues to argue and always show that he's the man and always right. I just :confusedshrug: and :rolleyes: and entertain him for a bit then finally give up and move on. I mean, if he seriously thinks that Amare is this amazing playmaking big, and not a product of Steve Nash, what else can you really say?

Plus there's that weird obsession with betting...

[Sarcastic]

Do you remember? It was far back but that 17 win team was like trash. Would be easily the worst team in the league this year. Juwan Howard was the man. Camby\Posey were banged up. You had Skita .. one of the biggest draft busts of all time starting games at some point. Not Kwame bust level .. but like literally out of the NBA bust level. That team was literally filled with names that nobody would know. Like guy's who didn't survive in the NBA. You got what? Juwan Howard, Nene and Rodney White? :oldlol:

Next year you had Nene who got better. Camby was healthy most of the year so right there that's your 10 boards 2+ blocks a game. Andre Miller has proved time and time again he can impact games. Voshon Lenard was actually decent, not sure if this was the same year but that one year was actually in the 3 point shoot out. Boykins is a decent bench player.

Biggest difference is one team had a legit lineup and a roster while the other plugged and play through out the entire year.

20+ game difference? Melo was HUGE obviously. Gave them that legit scorer even as a rookie. Wasn't 20+ game impact by himself like you keep implying. Was just apart of an improved team.

That team was not going to the playoffs without Melo there. They hadn't been to the playoffs for almost a decade before he got there.

[GOBB]

That part definitely applies. Blake had an incredible season last year and the Clips watched the playoffs. He can't do it alone. Only guys who can come close to doing it alone this decade (they didnt, but they can do the most 'carrying' because they're that good) are prime Shaq, Duncan, Bron.

Griffin is DEFINITELY better than Amare and Carmelo. I'd be happy to explain why if you need me to. But of course he's not a one man team.

I'm not sure why you brought him up. I guess because when you can't have intelligent basketball discourse, you have to resort to "my team vs your team" and meaningless team-based trash talk to participate.

Unless there was some other reason I'm missing...

My team vs your team? My team doesnt have any of the players being argued. What was done is seeing if yuo applied your argument, logic on your own team because of a bias you have for the Clippers. Saying Blake is definately better is hilarious. I'd love to hear this

[NuggetsFan]

That team was not going to the playoffs without Melo there. They hadn't been to the playoffs for almost a decade before he got there.

Wtf are you even trying to say seriously? You just say things and when I respond you change your tune and say something that wasn't even apart of the discussion.

Of course they don't make the playoffs without Melo. He led the team in scoring. Same time saying he took a 17 win team to the playoffs? That's just false. It wasn't the 17 win team. It wasn't with Skita starting. It wasn't with Posey missing most of the year. It wasn't with Camby out. It was with new players, better players. Did he have a big impact? No doubt. IMO should have won rookie of the year.

I don't even think Melo's overrated. Wasn't even trying to slight him. Was literally responding to your taking the 17 win team to the playoffs comment.

[brahmabull117]

The Bulls offense is painful to watch even WITH Rose playing. It's literally four guys standing around watching Rose and waiting for him to do something incredible (which he usually does).


they're much better this year because Rip Hamilton's a solid scorer and good passer

[GOBB]

What needs to be said? Amare put up big numbers because he was literally the only offensive option they had, but the team still stank.

Amare was a better player with Nash making plays FOR HIM. Without him, he put up numbers (BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD), but they were just empty meh numbers.

Nash + Amare + D'Antoni = WCF
Melo + Amare + D'Antoni = First round sweep

Show me the numbers with Nash
Show me the numbers without Nash

Amare avg 25ppg last year as a NYK. He avg about 24ppg give or take with Carmelo Anthony who was traded in Feb. Amare best scoring year was 26ppg with Nash. Whoa nellie, 1 f*cking pt makes a significant different in your mind.

You dont even have a valid argument. You're literally babbling and pulling stuff out the air. :oldlol:

And who cares about his rough start so far. That happens. Some players stats are great then tail off. Some players stats are weak and pick up. How can anyone determine anything after the 4gms he played. He played 4 f*cking games! Jesus Christ.

But back to you showming me his numbers with and without Nash. Lets see them.

[NumberSix]

Half the forum will agree with you, the other half will fight to the bitter end disagreeing with you.

I happen to agree with you. Dude is a ball-hog chucker who plays no D. However, he's not even the most overrated player on his own team. :lol
Who is? Tyson?

[GOBB]

GOBB just argues to argue and always show that he's the man and always right. I just :confusedshrug: and :rolleyes: and entertain him for a bit then finally give up and move on. I mean, if he seriously thinks that Amare is this amazing playmaking big, and not a product of Steve Nash, what else can you really say?

Plus there's that weird obsession with betting...

Amare is not a product of Nash
Amare is one of if not the best finishing big men in the NBA

2 things that have been proven. Would Amare benefit from playing with Steve Nash? Yes, any player would. Whats the point in that? Dwight Howard would benefit from Nash. Shaq would have. I dont get this idea that Amare cant create his own offensive oppurtunities when he has shown and proven it last year as a NYK. Yet your argument is he proved that because he was the only scoring option. :roll:

Your argument is moronic. But you wont have a bball convo with me refuting anything I say because you're incapable. You dont have it in you. Thats the funny part. Why dont you PM a respectable poster here and have them help you out. Copy and paste thier argument to me. Hows that? Right now you look bad.

[Droid101]

Show me the numbers with Nash
Show me the numbers without Nash

Amare avg 25ppg last year as a NYK. He avg about 24ppg give or take with Carmelo Anthony who was traded in Feb. Amare best scoring year was 26ppg with Nash. Whoa nellie, 1 f*cking pt makes a significant different in your mind.

You dont even have a valid argument. You're literally babbling and pulling stuff out the air. :oldlol:

And who cares about his rough start so far. That happens. Some players stats are great then tail off. Some players stats are weak and pick up. How can anyone determine anything after the 4gms he played. He played 4 f*cking games! Jesus Christ.

But back to you showming me his numbers with and without Nash. Lets see them.
You sound like Euroleague out there, spouting only PPG.

Amar'e's shooting percentages by year:

04-05: 56%
05-06: only played 3 games
06-07: 58%
07-08: 59%
08-09: 54% (missed half the season with injury)
09-10: 56%

Now without Nash feeding him open shots:
10-11: 50%
11-12: 44%

[GOBB]

You sound like Euroleague out there, spouting only PPG.

Amar'e's shooting percentages by year:

04-05: 56%
05-06: only played 3 games
06-07: 58%
07-08: 59%
08-09: 54% (missed half the season with injury)
09-10: 56%

Now without Nash feeding him open shots:
10-11: 50%
11-12: 44%

:roll: 50% of your FGs made is a bad thing. Who knew!?!

44%? How are you factoring 4gms into a 66gm season you imbecile? Kill yourself.


Amare Stoudemire avg 25ppg on 50% shooting. And yet he is a product of Steve Nash.
Amare Stoudemire avg 25ppg on 50% shooting. And did this without a great PG. He did this creating his own offense.
Amare Stoudemire avg 25ppg on 50% shooting. And yet these numbers arent good because with Nash he had a higher FG %.

[knicksman]

well let me see

lebron in the west

will miss 3 postseasons

and a first round exit until 2009 season
maybe he will get past the first round in 2006 but I doubt they are better than clippers.
In 2009 he has more wins but lost as the topdog against orlando while melo went to the conference finals too in the tougher west and lost to the champs
In 2010, denver were contenders until they got hit by injuries to their frontcourt and george karl out due to cancer.

So all in all. Lebron had 2 contending teams the same with melo before miami. At least melo didnt missed the playoffs while lebron would if he played in the west.

If tmac is considered top 3 when rookie melo has won more games than peak tmac and that was in the tougher western conference, so I dont get why hes overrated.

And about amare, he has been contending since his 3rd year.

At the end of the day, its the end result that matters. Which is wins and amare and melo have been winners compared to players that are considered better than them. It just means that these 2 are team players who never cared about stats but more about winning.

[NuggetsFan]

Amare isn't a product of Nash. Still can score, still doesn't play D. Still not the best rebounder. However Nash clearly makes him better. Amare's best attribute is finishing plays, clearly a PG like Nash is going to maximize his potential on offense.

[Droid101]

:roll: 50% of your FGs made is a bad thing. Who knew!?!

44%? How are you factoring 4gms into a 66gm season you imbecile? Kill yourself.

Amare Stoudemire avg 25ppg on 50% shooting. And yet he is a product of Steve Nash.
Amare Stoudemire avg 25ppg on 50% shooting. And did this without a great PG. He did this creating his own offense.
Amare Stoudemire avg 25ppg on 50% shooting. And yet these numbers arent good because with Nash he had a higher FG %.

When the **** did I say it was a bad thing?

For him, it's pretty below average. For a starting power forward or center, it's also below average. (The shooting percentage.)

I've already said it multiple times, he's a decent scorer, but not otherworldly without someone setting him up.

[Optimus Prime]

You sound like Euroleague out there, spouting only PPG.

Amar'e's shooting percentages by year:

04-05: 56%
05-06: only played 3 games
06-07: 58%
07-08: 59%
08-09: 54% (missed half the season with injury)
09-10: 56%

Now without Nash feeding him open shots:
10-11: 50%
11-12: 44%

This. Apparently all that matters to him is numbers. SHOW ME THE NUMBERS! PPG! :eek:

How about I show you the WCF w/ Nash and first-round sweep without? Can't even say it's the system since D'Antoni is in NYC as well.

Look at that FG% drop like a rock without Nash. How about them numbers!

[GOBB]

:oldlol: Optimus Fraud cant even address anything I asked HIM in my post. He waits to quote and say "what he said, yeah". I love how big of a clown you are.


Now, the reason Amare is more overrated than him is because Amare NEEDS a great PG to make him good

^^^has been proven wrong. Good enough for me.

[Droid101]

^^^has been proven wrong. Good enough for me.
Well, since the mighty GOBB said it, it must be true!


:rolleyes:

[GOBB]

Well, since the mighty GOBB said it, it must be true!


:rolleyes:

Whats true about it? Nothing. Now since you jumped in this argument as if you side with his views. Why dont you do his homework for him? Present an argument that shows Amare needs a great PG to make him look good.

Or you can choose to say "Hey I didnt say nor agree with that. I hate the fact you did prove you were right and him wrong. It rubs me the wrong way to see someone taunt and celebrate a person in an argument."

:roll:

Ball in your court since Optimus Fraud is hiding. He has no balls to argue, support, defend his position. So do his homework for him or let the kid fail.

[knickswin]

:blah :blah :blah

carmelo is a really good player. if anything, he's underrated because the ESPN hype machine has never had his back the way they have lebron's, durant's, chris paul's, rose's, etc. it's not all about numbers and efficiency. i have defended your god derrick rose's inefficiency in the past, and i'd do the same for carmelo.

i don't need to defend his scoring because he is clearly extremely talented in the regard.

in the past, his ball stopping was a serious criticism, as was his defense. but he has made major efforts the past few seasons to improve his defense. he's always been a talented passer (see his run at syracuse) and this season he is making an earnest effort to facilitate for his teammates.

right now the knicks' problems are in spite of carmelo. he has been playing great, he can't do everything for this team.

i am pretty much at the point where i would support a coaching change and a major roster upheaval unless they turn it around very soon because this current group is poorly constructed. i like carmelo, baron, tyson, jeffries, and i guess shumpert because he's young even though he seems to have poor basketball iq. everyone else can go in my opinion.

[FourthTenor]

:blah :blah :blah

carmelo is a really good player. if anything, he's underrated because the ESPN hype machine has never had his back the way they have lebron's, durant's, chris paul's, rose's, etc. .


yeah, the way they completely ignored him the whole time he was on the verge of being traded to the knicks :rolleyes:

[knickswin]

yeah, the way they completely ignored him the whole time he was on the verge of being traded to the knicks :rolleyes:

no, that was different. that was because it had to do with new york which has the biggest fan base in the nba. he has never been the ESPN golden boy or chosen one.

[bluechox2]

amare needs someone to pass him the ball at a good spot

[Xiao Yao You]

20+ game impact by himself like you keep implying. Was just apart of an improved team.

Carmelo and his supporters implied it. He's always been about the hype. Never lived up to it. I'd compare him to Dominique.


That team was not going to the playoffs without Melo there.

Based on what Karl has done without him I'm not so sure about that. Very similar team now without a go to guy/all-star.

[FourthTenor]

Based on what Karl has done without him I'm not so sure about that. Very similar team now without a go to guy/all-star.


Fans (of all sports) love that whole "one guy is the hero" thing. Hence why it gets ignored that Tom Brady has played with the best offensive line in front of him for his whole career.

People need simplification. They're not trying to figure out how multiple interworking parts function. They want one hero/leader/batman/first-option/assasin/other lame cliche... or if things are goin wrong, they need one scapegoat to point out (in the case of knicks fans: pringles)

Truth is bad teams have bad playerS and good teams have good playerS.

Knicks dont have good players, compared to any legit contenders.

[Xiao Yao You]

Knicks dont have good players, compared to any legit contenders.

No they gave them all up to get Carmelo.

[FourthTenor]

No they gave them all up to get Carmelo.

Shoulda traded for Nene instead :oldlol:

[I.R.Beast]

Carmelo is a good/talented player, but he's like the biggest ball stopper in the nba on offense :rolleyes:
Ball stopper?....you hear Barkley sa this shit and u just jad to start sayin it right?.... The nuggets were trash and carmelo came and they were perenial playoff teams in which he lead to the conference finals in 08 in a conference which hosted 3-4 better teams than the nuggets. How is carmelo overrated?.... Because the knicks are struggling?....


they have no pg, no depth, and amare wants to shoot jumpers....they need more pieces... You people are ridiculous. Carmelo is doing his part in New York

[brahmabull117]

:blah :blah :blah

carmelo is a really good player. if anything, he's underrated because the ESPN hype machine has never had his back the way they have lebron's, durant's, chris paul's, rose's, etc. it's not all about numbers and efficiency. i have defended your god derrick rose's inefficiency in the past, and i'd do the same for carmelo.

i don't need to defend his scoring because he is clearly extremely talented in the regard.

in the past, his ball stopping was a serious criticism, as was his defense. but he has made major efforts the past few seasons to improve his defense. he's always been a talented passer (see his run at syracuse) and this season he is making an earnest effort to facilitate for his teammates.

right now the knicks' problems are in spite of carmelo. he has been playing great, he can't do everything for this team.

i am pretty much at the point where i would support a coaching change and a major roster upheaval unless they turn it around very soon because this current group is poorly constructed. i like carmelo, baron, tyson, jeffries, and i guess shumpert because he's young even though he seems to have poor basketball iq. everyone else can go in my opinion.



when in the world has Carmelo showed any effort to improve on defense?? his defensive efficiency numbers have always been on the mediocre side



He's not a bad scorer, I never said that he was - he's a guy who can get you 25+ ppg pretty much whenever he wants. My problem with him is that he's a 1 dimensional player who has never really put in the effort to improve in the other areas and I can't put a guy like that on my top players list I'm sorry



I'd rather take a guy who scores 18-20 points per game like Paul Pierce but still plays great defense by a big margin over Carmelo

[LA_Showtime]

What's funny is that everything bad said about Anthony could be said about Amare. That's why I laugh whenever I hear Big Three and New York. Yeah, right. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

Carmelo and his supporters implied it. He's always been about the hype. Never lived up to it. I'd compare him to Dominique.


if he never lived up to the hype then what about lebron who would be a first round exit and worse is that he would missed 3 postseasons if he played in the west. Think before you speak buddy coz you look like an idiot right now. But of course idiots dont realize how weak the east was thats why they think LBJ is god coz he made it to the finals. LMAO



Based on what Karl has done without him I'm not so sure about that. Very similar team now without a go to guy/all-star.
Again think before you speak coz that same team healthy made it to the conference finals while the new team only won 1 game in the playoffs against an overrated oklahoma.

[knicksman]

Fans (of all sports) love that whole "one guy is the hero" thing. Hence why it gets ignored that Tom Brady has played with the best offensive line in front of him for his whole career.

People need simplification. They're not trying to figure out how multiple interworking parts function. They want one hero/leader/batman/first-option/assasin/other lame cliche... or if things are goin wrong, they need one scapegoat to point out (in the case of knicks fans: pringles)

Truth is bad teams have bad playerS and good teams have good playerS.

Knicks dont have good players, compared to any legit contenders.

LMAO you just proved to be an idiot by comparing football to basketball. Individual players impact more in basketball than in football due to amount of players in court. Thats why its a superstars league. And you only need a big 3 and not a team in order to win in this league.

[Xiao Yao You]

if he never lived up to the hype then what about lebron

That's the point. He's been put up there with Lebron all along when Lebron is one of the greatest all-around talents ever to play the game and Carmelo is just the latest in a long line of high scoring small forwards. What makes Carmelo one of the greats of his day when guys like Alex English and Adrian Dantley weren't considered among the greats in theirs? Bernard King was briefly but just cuz he was in NY. Like I said Dominique is the comparison that comes to mind for me. He was talked about with the greats of his day but he was just a high scoring small forward like the others.


Again think before you speak coz that same team healthy made it to the conference finals while the new team only won 1 game in the playoffs against an overrated oklahoma.

That team like this years doesn't belong in the playoffs. But amazingly they are playing great team ball without Carmelo around.

[Clutch]

That's the point. He's been put up there with Lebron
How ?
LeBron is considered the best player in the league by 90% of the fans while Melo is considered the most overrated basketball player in the league by many.

[Xiao Yao You]

I guess. Since he came in the league he's been put up there with the best. The Knicks gave Denver their current roster for him. The new big 3. Title contenders. ROFLMAO!

[airchibundo507]

I guess. Since he came in the league he's been put up there with the best. The Knicks gave Denver their current roster for him. The new big 3. Title contenders. ROFLMAO!
remember when the heat started 10-10? it's too early to come to any conclusions

[knickswin]

remember when the heat started 10-10? it's too early to come to any conclusions

the knicks really have looked like garbage though. it's not like these games have been all that close. but this kind of happened last year too for the knicks where they got off to a slow start. mike's offense is complicated so it takes a while to click. but i'm not even sure if they're trying to run mike's offense this year, so i'm not sure what's going on.

carmelo's been playing great though. to play any better he would literally have to do everything for this team.

[knicksman]

That's the point. He's been put up there with Lebron all along when Lebron is one of the greatest all-around talents ever to play the game and Carmelo is just the latest in a long line of high scoring small forwards. What makes Carmelo one of the greats of his day when guys like Alex English and Adrian Dantley weren't considered among the greats in theirs? Bernard King was briefly but just cuz he was in NY. Like I said Dominique is the comparison that comes to mind for me. He was talked about with the greats of his day but he was just a high scoring small forward like the others.


Dude your proving to have a low IQ here coz you dont get what im saying. LOL what matters is the end result which is wins. And carmelo has been more of a winner than lebron if you put lebrons team on the west instead of the weak east. Lebron would be worse by missing 3 postseasons and being a first round exit if he played in that tough western conference. Add that 11-4 record head to head starting since their high school days. So if melo has been more of a winner than lebron while lebron being considered greatest all around talents, then lebron might be more of an underachiever. This is really like jordan/robertson comparison. Robertson has the better stats but at the end of the day winning is all that matters and robertson hasnt won a ring as the man. Only idiots are fooled by statpadders like lebron. I guess you believe too that tmac is better than melo when rookie melo already produced more wins than prime tmac. LMAO



That team like this years doesn't belong in the playoffs. But amazingly they are playing great team ball without Carmelo around.


Yeah they dont belong in the playoffs thats why they won only 1 game in the playoffs instead of the western conference finals that melo had. Who cares about team ball if that doesnt produce success or wins. At the end of the day, winning is all that matters. Thats why kobe is passing the torch to melo coz he has that winner mentality. Theres a reason why melo had that NCAA championship.

[knicksman]

I guess. Since he came in the league he's been put up there with the best. The Knicks gave Denver their current roster for him. The new big 3. Title contenders. ROFLMAO!

Be careful what youre saying dude. REmember spurs started 6-7 in the 98 season. Oh knicks at that time were 8th seed

[airchibundo507]

the knicks really have looked like garbage though. it's not like these games have been all that close. but this kind of happened last year too for the knicks where they got off to a slow start. mike's offense is complicated so it takes a while to click. but i'm not even sure if they're trying to run mike's offense this year, so i'm not sure what's going on.

carmelo's been playing great though. to play any better he would literally have to do everything for this team.

well the heat didn't have to deal with the injuries the Knicks have endured and a shortened training camp. this squad is definitely underperforming and will improve from their .500 record after tonight's win

[knickswin]

well the heat didn't have to deal with the injuries the Knicks have endured and a shortened training camp. this squad is definitely underperforming and will improve from their .500 record after tonight's win

i really hope we get it together like some other teams did. there are definitely serious chemistry issues right now. we'd definitely be a lot better if amare could get it going and if we had a point guard. it's starting to look like shumpert is going to take over douglas' spot one of these days since shumpert seems to do a better job running the offense (which is sad because shumpert isn't particularly great). i hope baron davis is back by early february at the very latest.

but if things don't change we could be the eagles of the nba. the part that bums me out is people are going to put the blame for this season on carmelo when it's really in spite of him. he's been doing his part. more than his part. i only caught ewing at the end of his career, so carmelo is the first player i've seen in a knicks uniform in whom i see the potential for greatness. i just hope we get him a proper roster within the next few seasons and don't waste the time we have with him.

[knicksman]

i really hope we get it together like some other teams did. there are definitely serious chemistry issues right now. we'd definitely be a lot better if amare could get it going and if we had a point guard. it's starting to look like shumpert is going to take over douglas' spot one of these days since shumpert seems to do a better job running the offense (which is sad because shumpert isn't particularly great). i hope baron davis is back by early february at the very latest.

but if things don't change we could be the eagles of the nba. the part that bums me out is people are going to put the blame for this season on carmelo when it's really in spite of him. he's been doing his part. more than his part. i only caught ewing at the end of his career, so carmelo is the first player i've seen in a knicks uniform in whom i see the potential for greatness. i just hope we get him a proper roster within the next few seasons and don't waste the time we have with him.

The reason amare is chucking is to regain that jumper. That problem should be fixed ASAP coz that jumper is so important esp for spacing and easy points. If it had to sacrifice games and treat the early games as preseason games then so be it. And 2nd is douglas is a momentum killer. I have no problem with him as pg even though hes not a good passer as long as he moves the ball but he chucks like hes a superstar. And I dont want my team playing defense when the offense is not yet there. I just dont believe in defense wins championships. I think thats misinterpreted. Defense is more of hustle but players are generally soft coz hustle equals injuries coz you bang inside and all the other dirty work. So before I let them do the hustle and risk them to injuries, I want my team to be good first at offense coz the better your offense, the less hustle and banging you need. I dont want to end up like the rockets where tmac, yao getting injured every year because theyre so dependent on defense.

[dirk94_]

I think ish likes to just make threads about nba players and throw the words of underrated and overrated in

[brisbaneman]

I think ish likes to just make threads about nba players and throw the words of underrated and overrated in

But it's universally known that Dirk is the almighty greatest

[knickswin]

But it's universally known that Dirk is the almighty greatest

no, dirk is still underrated. every year you get new "so and so is the best power forward in the league!!!!" threads (boozer, bosh, amare, aldridge, griffin, the list goes on). it's always dirk though. he is an all time great player while none of those guys have ever really led their teams anywhere (well boozer got to the WCF's, but that was a weird year and he had sloan and deron).

[Xiao Yao You]

remember when the heat started 10-10? it's too early to come to any conclusions

No it's not. Best case scenario is they are a 2nd tier team, 50-55 wins(82 games), 2nd round of the playoffs. Baron and Kenyon aren't saviors.



This is really like jordan/robertson comparison.

No it's not. Those two and Lebron are 3 of the greats. Carmelo is just a high scoring small forward and that's how he will be remembered just like Dominique who had similar hype in his day.

[imdaman99]

why won't this thread die :facepalm

[magnax1]

There aren't many players I'd rather have then him. He's not a good defender, but he's also the best scorer in the league. Not by a small margin either. I never had high expectations for this Knicks team though. Amare is on the decline, and he already was pretty awful for extended periods last year, and Chandler just isn't as good as I think a lot of people expect him to be. They could still be in the playoffs, and probably a top 4 seed, but they won't be title contenders.

[Kevin_Gamble]

There aren't many players I'd rather have then him. He's not a good defender, but he's also the best scorer in the league. Not by a small margin either. I never had high expectations for this Knicks team though. Amare is on the decline, and he already was pretty awful for extended periods last year, and Chandler just isn't as good as I think a lot of people expect him to be. They could still be in the playoffs, and probably a top 4 seed, but they won't be title contenders.

And this is why people say Carmelo is the most overrated player in the league.

[magnax1]

And this is why people say Carmelo is the most overrated player in the league.
Who do you think is better then him then?

[bluechox2]

Carmelo ballin right now, cant be stopped

[knickswin]

what is most exciting to me is how actively he is looking for his teammates. sky's the limit for a player with his scoring arsenal and that attitude.

i just hope his teammates can hold up their end of the bargain.

[bluechox2]

amare and melo chemistry is growing