Is Kevin Durant above Tracy McGrady in the all-time list?

[StateOfMind12]

I am starting to think Durant has already surpassed McGrady even though that is not saying much.

Durant

NBA Rookie of the Year (2008)
2

[Lebron23]

Yes

[Collie]

Not yet, but he certainly will be in a couple of years.'

And if he is, it certainly isn't "not even close".

[NJW1247]

http://www.fatsammy.com/nothing_to_see_here.jpg

[28renyoy]

When you factor in Durant's playoff success, yet which is sad because McGrady was in the league for 14 years

[TMAC-RAPTORS]

As in success, then sure because he has a better team to go further in the playoffs. But i still won't take him over a prime McGrady :oldlol:

[28renyoy]

As in success, then sure because he has a better team to go further in the playoffs. But i still won't take him over a prime McGrady :oldlol:

Would be stupid not to..the object of the game is to win, something McGrady didn't do

[AirTupac]

Would be stupid not to..the object of the game is to win, something McGrady didn't do

Prime TMac > Durant

[rhythmic]

:roll: I'll take prime McGrady over Durant in a god damn heartbeat.
This is the same player who was on Kobe's level in his prime.

Durant I don't think will ever be as good as a healthy & primed Tracy McGrady.

[knickswin]

tmac got a raw deal in terms of rosters and health. i think at his best he was a better player than durant. better scorer and much better facilitator. but because tmac's accomplishments are few, durant will go down as the better player. it's kind of a meaningless comparison though

[StateOfMind12]

Prime TMac > Durant
Peak TMac? Probably. Prime TMac? I don't think so.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol No

[28renyoy]

:roll: I'll take prime McGrady over Durant in a god damn heartbeat.
This is the same player who was on Kobe's level in his prime.

Durant I don't think will ever be as good as a healthy & primed Tracy McGrady.

Kobe's prime wasn't some top 10 all time great prime. Kobe is great because of his longevity and being a top 5 player in the league for an entire decade, not being the absolute best in the game by a huge margin.

Have fun with a career loser as your best player. Isn't that the ENTIRE Kobe>LeBron argument?

[KBryant24]

Prime TMac > Durant
this, Tmac was a GOD in his prime. People tend to ignore this fact just because he was on a terrible team.

[crosso√er]

Kobe's prime wasn't some top 10 all time great prime. Kobe is great because of his longevity and being a top 5 player in the league for an entire decade, not being the absolute best in the game by a huge margin.

Have fun with a career loser as your best player. Isn't that the ENTIRE Kobe>LeBron argument?

:oldlol: What has Durant won again?

[NinjaSeal]

honestly based on videos and montages... not stats...

mcgrady is the 2nd best sg ever... headfake fake pass crossover headfake spin fade on offshoulder ...all net? jordan jr.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Would be stupid not to..the object of the game is to win, something McGrady didn't do

:oldlol: Does Durant even make the playoffs on prime T-Mac's teams('01-'05)? Maybe '05, but there's little to no chance he wins any series either, and it's a huge stretch to say he'd get any of those Orlando teams into the playoffs. Prime T-Mac was simply a better all around player.

[rhythmic]

Kobe's prime wasn't some top 10 all time great prime. Kobe is great because of his longevity and being a top 5 player in the league for an entire decade, not being the absolute best in the game by a huge margin.

Have fun with a career loser as your best player. Isn't that the ENTIRE Kobe>LeBron argument?

You would be making sense if Durant actually won a ring or two and separated himself from McGrady. Skill-set alone, McGrady by a clear margin for me.

[28renyoy]

Kobe>LeBron because of winning, but McGrady>Durant because of stats. And McGrady doesn't even have better stats than Durant, his stats are worse if you include his entire prime. The guy had ONE great season and is overrated because of his playing style. Just like Iverson

[Tenchi Ryu]

honestly based on videos and montages... not stats...

mcgrady is the 2nd best sg ever... headfake fake pass crossover headfake spin fade on offshoulder ...all net? jordan jr.
Stat Whores do not understand this.

[KBryant24]

Stat Whores do not understand this.
its sad.
true nba fans need to accept both the visual side of the game and the statistical side.
I can't stand when people make arguments that are entirely based on one or the other.

[StateOfMind12]

:oldlol: Does Durant even make the playoffs on prime T-Mac's teams('01-'05)? Maybe '05, but there's little to no chance he wins any series either, and it's a huge stretch to say he'd get any of those Orlando teams into the playoffs. Prime T-Mac was simply a better all around player.
I am not sure how true this is. Prime T-Mac was a better facilitator, passer, and playmaker and that was about it. As far as all the other aspects of the game Durant was either equal to Tmac or better.

I think Peak Tmac was better so Tmac in '02-'03 was probably better than any version of Durant but all the other versions of Tmac are not better than either '09-'10 Durant or '10-'11 Durant and certainly not current '11-'12 Durant.

[28renyoy]

its sad.
true nba fans need to accept both the visual side of the game and the statistical side.
I can't stand when people make arguments that are entirely based on one or the other.

Aesthetics >Production

Let's determine the NBA champion by who looks the best/most fun to watch and not by who actually wins the games

[Zenji]

http://www.fatsammy.com/nothing_to_see_here.jpg

This.

[KBryant24]

Aesthetics >Production

Let's determine the NBA champion by who looks the best/most fun to watch and not by who actually wins the games
championships arent decided by boxscores. Role guys dont put up significant numbers at all and yet they are arguable the difference between an NBA champion and a first round exit.
also, defense wins championships, and yet there are not many stats that can tell you how dominant a D is.

[B-Low]

I never do the hashtag thing but this thread calls for it. Who's higher on the all-time list?

Answer: Tracy McGrady #yallmustaforgot

[KBryant24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceLlz7dOOvY&feature=related

[ShaqAttack3234]

I am not sure how true this is. Prime T-Mac was a better facilitator, passer, and playmaker and that was about it. As far as all the other aspects of the game Durant was either equal to Tmac or better.

I think Peak Tmac was better so Tmac in '02-'03 was probably better than any version of Durant but all the other versions of Tmac are not better than either '09-'10 Durant or '10-'11 Durant and certainly not current '11-'12 Durant.

Well, peak T-Mac is clearly better, imo, but I think that if T-Mac set out to score more in '02, he could've probably scored 30 per game without ****ing up the team had he wanted to, he didn't look much less capable than '03, maybe a little worse as a shooter. Same with '05 T-Mac to some degree. '01-'04 was a tougher defense era, no way Durant is getting to the line at the comical rate he did in '10 back then. While some will only look at TS%(and forget the era), T-Mac was also a much better ball handler and turning the ball over less is part of efficiency as well. T-Mac did settle for more jumpers and not try as hard in '04 by his own admission, and that should be held against him, but he was pretty much as capable as ever.

It does come down to approach and team to some degree.

T-Mac's advantage as a passer and playmaker is huge and he was a better defender when motivated(usually in the playoffs), aside from pure shooting, prime T-Mac was as good at everything, imo and at least as good of a streak shooter, if not better.

[Legends66NBA7]

championships arent decided by boxscores. Role guys dont put up significant numbers at all and yet they are arguable the difference between an NBA champion and a first round exit.
also, defense wins championships, and yet there are not many stats that can tell you how dominant a D is.

+1.

Just look at the Dallas Mavericks for example in one difference of changing their role playing centers from Dampier to Chandler. Pretty much fits the build of what you just said.

:cheers:

[RRR3]

Well, peak T-Mac is clearly better, imo, but I think that if T-Mac set out to score more in '02, he could've probably scored 30 per game without ****ing up the team had he wanted to, he didn't look much less capable than '03, maybe a little worse as a shooter. Same with '05 T-Mac to some degree. '01-'04 was a tougher defense era, no way Durant is getting to the line at the comical rate he did in '10 back then. While some will only look at TS%(and forget the era), T-Mac was also a much better ball handler and turning the ball over less is part of efficiency as well. T-Mac did settle for more jumpers and not try as hard in '04 by his own admission, and that should be held against him, but he was pretty much as capable as ever.

It does come down to approach and team to some degree.

T-Mac's advantage as a passer and playmaker is huge and he was a better defender when motivated(usually in the playoffs), aside from pure shooting, prime T-Mac was as good at everything, imo and at least as good of a streak shooter, if not better.
:applause: Btw shaqattack op Is rocketsgreatness (rg) aka swagger. Just FYI.

[k0kakw0rld]

Kobe>LeBron because of winning, but McGrady>Durant because of stats. And McGrady doesn't even have better stats than Durant, his stats are worse if you include his entire prime. The guy had ONE great season and is overrated because of his playing style. Just like Iverson
ALLEN IVERSON IS THE GREATEST POINT GUARD TO EVER PLAY THE GAME. Only one good season? Let me educate you:

Number one Pick Overall 96
Rookie of the Year 1997.
Rookie All-star game MVP in 1997.
11 time NBA All Star
All Star Game MVP 2001 and 2005
NBA MVP 2000-01.
All NBA First Team 1999, 2000, 2001.
Led 76ers to the NBA finals with Scrubs Eric Snow? Really?
4 time Avg more than 30.0 PPG in the playoffs 5 time during regular season so only one good Season? Really?


Durant has an All Star With him Westbrick...A decent Center and Power Forward both playing amazing D.

[FindingTim]

Durant greater player all-time than McGrady? hell no. T-Mac is one of the most unstoppable, well-rounded players to ever play the game. He was every bit as explosive a scorer as Durant, with terrific ball-handling and great court vision/passing. McGrady, at his peak, was one of the best ever. That might sound absurd, but his playoff "failures" blind people to his greatness.

[lilgodfather1]

If this is the first season you ever watched then yeah Durant is clearly better, but if you watched more than 5 yearsthen TMac is clearly the better player. Simply unstoppable, too bad he ot so many injuries. Derailed, and robbed us of seeing a great player.

[Dizzle-2k7]

both incredible players but prime tmac was a monster and clearly better...

however if you compare careers then imo durant has already surpassed him by getting to the WCF last year.

[L.Kizzle]

When you factor in Durant's playoff success, yet which is sad because McGrady was in the league for 14 years
No not yet and what playoff success? A guy who in four years made the playoffs twice has now "playoff success?" Damn, I guess Baron Davis is a playoff legend then.

[StateOfMind12]

No not yet and what playoff success? A guy who in four years made the playoffs twice has now "playoff success?" Damn, I guess Baron Davis is a playoff legend then.
I'm pretty sure a player who makes it to the Conference finals is more successful in the post-season than a player who never made it past the 1st round. Noamsayin?


'01-'04 was a tougher defense era, no way Durant is getting to the line at the comical rate he did in '10 back then.
Maybe, maybe not but Durant is an elite FT shooter whereas Tmac is actually below average FT shooter for a player of his position. That affects your TS% by a lot. Players like Shaq still have a wrong TS% because they have such a high FG%. It's almost like if you have a shitty FG%, you can make it up by draining a lot of 3s efficiently and/or making your FTs at a high clip.

Chauncey Billups is the perfect example of this. Billups always shoots a low FG% every season. He shoots a FG% in the 40% range year in and year out, yet if you look at his TS% he shoots a TS% in the 60% range year in and year out which is remarkable/elite.

Durant would have a higher TS% than Tmac in almost any era really...



T-Mac's advantage as a passer and playmaker is huge and he was a better defender when motivated(usually in the playoffs), aside from pure shooting, prime T-Mac was as good at everything, imo and at least as good of a streak shooter, if not better.
While I do think was a better passer/playmaker, Durant has been closing the gap and you would know what I am talking about if you have been watching Durant this season. His handles have definitely improved, they may not be as good as prime McGrady's but they are certainly very good.

Defense belongs to Durant because he is more consistent on that end. This season Durant has improved to be a great defensive player. It wouldn't even surprise me if Durant headlines the All-NBA defensive team this season because that is how good he has been.

There is a reason why a lot of people are starting to believe Durant is the best player in the league now. Some of it has to do with spitting Lebron James and his fans but a lot of other people also believe it because of his improvement in his all-around game.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm pretty sure a player who makes it to the Conference finals is more successful in the post-season than a player who never made it past the 1st round. Noamsayin?
He has 2 post season appearances, not like he has a Steve Nash post season record.

Baron Davis > T-Mac right?
Arenas > T-Mac?
Allan Houston > T-Mac. He made the Finals.

[StateOfMind12]

He has 2 post season appearances, not like he has a Steve Nash post season record.

Baron Davis > T-Mac right?
Arenas > T-Mac?
Allan Houston > T-Mac. He made the Finals.
Baron Davis? I would honestly say so even though I think pretty lowly of both Davis and Tmac
Arenas? I am not too sure but probably.
Houston? He wasn't the best player when his team made the finals so that is invalid.

I honestly hate to use winning/losing as the tale end to everything, but with Tmac it actually does matter since the guy was just a flat out loser. Prime Tmac was probably a better individual and more talented player than all of the players you listed, but as far as careers are concerned? He is probably below 2 of the 3 you listed.

[Kevin_Gamble]

T-Mac was so unstoppable in his prime that he shot almost 46% twice.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Maybe, maybe not but Durant is an elite FT shooter whereas Tmac is actually below average FT shooter for a player of his position. That affects your TS% by a lot. Players like Shaq still have a wrong TS% because they have such a high FG%. It's almost like if you have a shitty FG%, you can make it up by draining a lot of 3s efficiently and/or making your FTs at a high clip.

Chauncey Billups is the perfect example of this. Billups always shoots a low FG% every season. He shoots a FG% in the 40% range year in and year out, yet if you look at his TS% he shoots a TS% in the 60% range year in and year out which is remarkable/elite.

Durant would have a higher TS% than Tmac in almost any era really.

Oh, I'm not saying that Durant wouldn't have a higher TS%, I'm saying that the difference probably wouldn't be as a big. League average back then was always 52%(rounded, give or take a few percentage points) while it's been 54%+ since during Durant's era.

If you look at Durant's FTA per FGA in the '10 season, it's hard to imagine him getting the same amount in the early 2000s. He averaged 10.2 FTA with 20.3 FGA. To put that in perspective peak Shaq in 2000 averaged 10.4 FTA with 21.1 FGA. So he was getting to the line at a better rate than a player whose game was primarily power around the basket and a player who was already getting fouled intentionally with the hack-a-Shaq strategy at times.

But again, ppg+TS% don't sum up everything(as you yourself said in the LBJ scoring thread). Durant wasn't really any worse in '11 than '10 when he averaged 27.7 on 59 TS% vs 30.1 on 61 TS%.


While I do think was a better passer/playmaker, Durant has been closing the gap and you would know what I am talking about if you have been watching Durant this season. His handles have definitely improved, they may not be as good as prime McGrady's but they are certainly very good.

I haven't watched enough OKC games yet this season to judge fairly how significant his improvements are, he has looked better in this area so far, I agree with that, but T-Mac was among the absolute best SG/SF in recent years in this area.


Defense belongs to Durant because he is more consistent on that end. This season Durant has improved to be a great defensive player. It wouldn't even surprise me if Durant headlines the All-NBA defensive team this season because that is how good he has been.

Well, if he keeps it up. Durant is a guy who in the past has shown the potential at that end as well, but then again, so did T-Mac.


There is a reason why a lot of people are starting to believe Durant is the best player in the league now. Some of it has to do with spitting Lebron James and his fans but a lot of other people also believe it because of his improvement in his all-around game.

Well, this is a discussion that I personally won't take a stance on early in this season except for saying that if we were to judge the best player over the first 6-10 games or whatever, then Lebron has clearly had the best start. But it's too early, I've seen many players start out looking like they added something to their game, but doing it consistently throughout a season is different to me.

[Duncan21formvp]

Well if both players careers ended today, Mcgrady would get into the Hall of Fame while Durant would not.

[rodman91]

ALLEN IVERSON IS THE GREATEST POINT GUARD TO EVER PLAY THE GAME. Only one good season? Let me educate you:

Number one Pick Overall 96
Rookie of the Year 1997.
Rookie All-star game MVP in 1997.
11 time NBA All Star
All Star Game MVP 2001 and 2005
NBA MVP 2000-01.
All NBA First Team 1999, 2000, 2001.
Led 76ers to the NBA finals with Scrubs Eric Snow? Really?
4 time Avg more than 30.0 PPG in the playoffs 5 time during regular season so only one good Season? Really?


Durant has an All Star With him Westbrick...A decent Center and Power Forward both playing amazing D.

Also:

6th most ppg in season history.
2nd most ppg in playoff's history.
3rd most scoring titles in season history.(tied with Gervin)
3rd most 50 point game in playoff's history.
3 time stealing leader (most,tied)

:bowdown:

[pauk]

hell NO

[RRR3]

hell NO
OP Is Swagg3r :lol

[StateOfMind12]

T-Mac was so unstoppable in his prime that he shot almost 46% twice.
I would say Tmac was so unstoppable that his career TS% in the post-season was 51.7% McGrady is one of the most overrated playoff performers of all-time. People love to talk about how he is a good playoff performer because of his high playoff ppg career average, yet most people don't realize that he hasn't played any games (never got past the 1st round) and was shooting horribly inefficient in each of those playoff series for the most part

[brisbaneman]

at his best, mcgrady was a far better player than durant. durant on the other hand has much better teammates.

[brisbaneman]

but mcgrady and rockets should have beat dallas in 04-05 and utah in 06-07

[The_Yearning]

Listen, only person comparable to prime T-Mac was a prime Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I would say Tmac was so unstoppable that his career TS% in the post-season was 51.7% McGrady is one of the most overrated playoff performers of all-time. People love to talk about how he is a good playoff performer because of his high playoff ppg career average, yet most people don't realize that he hasn't played any games (never got past the 1st round) and was shooting horribly inefficient in each of those playoff series for the most part

The only year his TS% was mediocre in the playoffs was '01. And that was vs a poor defensive team, but he also averaged 34/7/8 and defended Glenn Robinson very well. I don't remember anyone calling that performance poor and the Bucks were loaded with offensive talent(Ray, Cassell, Robinson, Tim Thomas) and a 52 win team so the loss is to be expected.

Other than that, his TS% in his prime playoff series were.

'02- 31/6/6, 46 FG%, 55 TS%
'03- 32/7/5, 45 FG%, 56 TS%
'05- 31/7/7, 46 FG%, 56 TS%

His total playoff numbers from '01-'05 were 31.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 6.1 apg, 3.3 TO, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg, 44.5 FG%, 54.1 TS%


but mcgrady and rockets should have beat dallas in 04-05 and utah in 06-07

Should've beaten Dallas? I don't know, Dallas was seeded higher, and T-Mac played much better than the Mavs star Dirk in that series, hile giving him trouble when he guarded him.

Houston should've won in '07, I agree. In fact, they should've went to at least the WCF, but T-Mac was already not the player he had been in his prime, and Yao certainly didn't play as well as he could've vs Utah either(who were a really bad match up for Yao). I do remember cringing when Derek Fisher was able to guard McGrady in that '07 series without McGrady murdering him, T-Mac had 6-7 inches on him and really settled.

[brisbaneman]

The only year his TS% was mediocre in the playoffs was '01. And that was vs a poor defensive team, but he also averaged 34/7/8 and defended Glenn Robinson very well. I don't remember anyone calling that performance poor and the Bucks were loaded with offensive talent(Ray, Cassell, Robinson, Tim Thomas) and a 52 win team so the loss is to be expected.

Other than that, his TS% in his prime playoff series were.

'02- 31/6/6, 46 FG%, 55 TS%
'03- 32/7/5, 45 FG%, 56 TS%
'05- 31/7/7, 46 FG%, 56 TS%

His total playoff numbers from '01-'05 were 31.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 6.1 apg, 3.3 TO, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg, 44.5 FG%, 54.1 TS%



Should've beaten Dallas? I don't know, Dallas was seeded higher, and T-Mac played much better than the Mavs star Dirk in that series, hile giving him trouble when he guarded him.

Houston should've won in '07, I agree. In fact, they should've went to at least the WCF, but T-Mac was already not the player he had been in his prime, and Yao certainly didn't play as well as he could've vs Utah either(who were a really bad match up for Yao). I do remember cringing when Derek Fisher was able to guard McGrady in that '07 series without McGrady murdering him, T-Mac had 6-7 inches on him and really settled.

the dallas matchup was 4-5 and like you said mcgrady guarded dirk better than anyone has ever guarded the almighty.

also they won the first 2 in dallas and promptly got their asses handed to them the next 3 games. and dirk's supporting cast was pretty weak (jason terry, old stackhouse, 2nd year daniels and josh howard) and yao was murdering dampier.

[StateOfMind12]

The only year his TS% was mediocre in the playoffs was '01. And that was vs a poor defensive team, but he also averaged 34/7/8 and defended Glenn Robinson very well. I don't remember anyone calling that performance poor and the Bucks were loaded with offensive talent(Ray, Cassell, Robinson, Tim Thomas) and a 52 win team so the loss is to be expected.
Well like I said a lot of people think Tmac's playoff performances are great just because he averaged a lot of points but they don't look at how inefficient he was.

And if he a shot a poor TS% against a poor defensive team then doesn't that make it worse? :confusedshrug:




Other than that, his TS% in his prime playoff series were.

'02- 31/6/6, 46 FG%, 55 TS%
'03- 32/7/5, 45 FG%, 56 TS%
'05- 31/7/7, 46 FG%, 56 TS%

His total playoff numbers from '01-'05 were 31.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 6.1 apg, 3.3 TO, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg, 44.5 FG%, 54.1 TS%
I was actually just referring to his overall/career playoff performances, not just his prime ones.




Should've beaten Dallas? I don't know, Dallas was seeded higher, and T-Mac played much better than the Mavs star Dirk in that series, hile giving him trouble when he guarded him.
They should have beaten Dallas if you looked at the circumstances. They won the first two games at Dallas, so they had a commanding 2-0 lead coming back to Houston. Tmac and the Rockets then lost three straight games, game 3, 4, and 5 and they were down 2-3. I would have to say that is pretty much choking.



Houston should've won in '07, I agree. In fact, they should've went to at least the WCF, but T-Mac was already not the player he had been in his prime, and Yao certainly didn't play as well as he could've vs Utah either(who were a really bad match up for Yao). I do remember cringing when Derek Fisher was able to guard McGrady in that '07 series without McGrady murdering him, T-Mac had 6-7 inches on him and really settled.
Maybe I remember a little too much about McGrady in his Rockets years but these moments defined him as a loser in my opinion. He finally had the talent to win and at least get past the 1st round and he still couldn't do it. He might have been able to do it with talent back in Orlando but what he did in Houston says a lot to me.

Tmac has blown a lot of playoff series in his career (e.g. '03, '05, and '07 playoffs.)

In '03, he blew a 3-1 lead and Tmac started to act cocky saying it was nice to finally get out of the 1st round and then lose the next 3 games and lose the series

It is pretty funny since the '03 series was the 1st time in NBA history that 1st round playoff series were 7 game series instead of 5. :oldlol:

I already explained '05. They were up 2-0 coming back to Houston and then they lose 3 straight games, win game 6, and then get completely blown out in Game 7. McGrady's performance in that Game 7 was pathetic too. There were many that thought McGrady quit.

In '07, Rockets had HCA in the series and they start out 2-0 in the series. The series goes back to Houston tied up at 2-2 with Utah winning both of their games at home. Houston win the game 5, so the series is 3-2 and the Rockets could win the series if they win in either game 6 or game 7. The Rockets eventually blew these two games and lost the series and it was the only time Tmac ever had a 3-2 lead in a playoff series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

the dallas matchup was 4-5 and like you said mcgrady guarded dirk better than anyone has ever guarded the almighty.

also they won the first 2 in dallas and promptly got their asses handed to them the next 3 games. and dirk's supporting cast was pretty weak (jason terry, old stackhouse, 2nd year daniels and josh howard) and yao was murdering dampier.

Well, when it comes to supporting casts, I think it's worth pointing out that if T-Mac clearly had the better playoff series than Dirk(this was one of Dirk's few poor series and maybe his worst outside of Golden State) and Dallas still beat Houston that in this particular series, T-Mac didn't have the supporting cast advantage.

Yao was obviously a lot better than Dampier and a better player than any of Dirk's teammates at that point, but he was in foul trouble quite a bit in that series.

It may have been a 4-5 match up, but Dallas did win 58 games while Houston won 51.


Well like I said a lot of people think Tmac's playoff performances are great just because he averaged a lot of points but they don't look at how inefficient he was.

Well, again, it depends on the year.


And if he a shot a poor TS% against a poor defensive team then doesn't that make it worse? :confusedshrug:

I was just saying that it wasn't a poor series, the only thing that was poor about his series was his TS%, imo.

While he had a good TS% in '02 and had a worse series than '01, imo vs a team he could've beaten easier than the Bucks. Though his '02 series wasn't bad, imo, he could've played better in crunch time and the Hornets without Mashburn were a beatable team. But with Mike Miller's injury, Orlando's cast was complete trash, so that has to be considered.


I was actually just referring to his overall/career playoff performances, not just his prime ones.

Oh, I'm more or less talking about how good prime T-Mac. He just wasn't the same player to me after '05. I will say that he played great from about January on in '07 and as I acknowledged he should've played better vs Utah.


They should have beaten Dallas if you looked at the circumstances. They won the first two games at Dallas, so they had a commanding 2-0 lead coming back to Houston. Tmac and the Rockets then lost three straight games, game 3, 4, and 5 and they were down 2-3. I would have to say that is pretty much choking.

Sort of, T-Mac has had some disappointing game 7s, but when they were down 3-2, he had a great game 6 to extend the series to 7. It's kind of a mixed bag with him in that regard. They did blow the lead and got killed in game 7, but he also had a great elimination game to extend the series overall.


Maybe I remember a little too much about McGrady in his Rockets years but these moments defined him as a loser in my opinion. He finally had the talent to win and at least get past the 1st round and he still couldn't do it. He might have been able to do it with talent back in Orlando but what he did in Houston says a lot to me.

I do agree that there's negatives about McGrady and traits that make you question whether he was a real winner such as his own admission about his talent making his work ethic worse, his admission to not trying as hard in '04 and there are some moments to back it up.

I don't think there was a series that he could've been expected to win with his rosters from 2001-2005, but I'll say they could've won in '02, '03 and '05 considering the position they were in and T-Mac could've played better at certain times. But I don't consider him a playoff choker.

'07 is a negative to me as well when looking at overall career, I mostly judge by prime, but that was close to his prime, and a series that he could've got it done. He played ok, but they needed him to be more aggressive offensively and he didn't do it, so I'll concede that.

[StateOfMind12]

ShaqAttack, I have nothing to argue with in your post. It seems like we both agree and disagree in certain points but for the most part we are on the same page.

How many more elite seasons do you think Durant will have to have in order to surpass Tmac, or is it not the seasons that matters but just his style of play? If you look at both of their careers and accomplishments, Durant has already surpassed Tmac and I think it is hard to argue against that.

You mentioned TS% earlier about how in Tmac's time it was a different and tougher league to score in, so I just wanted to show you the TS% comparison to the league average at the time.

I got it from this thread....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239585

The +/- show their TS% compared to the league average of TS%.

Tracy McGrady TS% from '00 to '08

'00-'01 Tmac: 52.1% +0.3
'01-'02 Tmac: 53.2% +1.2
'02-'03 Tmac: 56.4% +4.5
'03-'04 Tmac: 52.6% +0.6
'04-'05 Tmac: 52.6% -0.4
'05-'06 Tmac: 49.4% -4.1
'06-'07 Tmac: 51.5% -2.6
'07-'08 Tmac: 48.7% -5.3

Kevin Durant TS% from '08 to '11 (using '11 since Durant's '11-'12 stats will change on any given night)

'08-'09 Durant: 57.7% +3.2
'09-'10 Durant: 60.7% +6.4
'10-'11 Durant: 58.9% +4.7


I'll do the same for eFG% between the two as well.


Tracy McGrady eFG% from '00 to '08

'00-'01 Tmac: 47.4% +0.1
'01-'02 Tmac: 48.3% +0.6
'02-'03 Tmac: 50.5% +3.2
'03-'04 Tmac: 47.3% +0.2
'04-'05 Tmac: 47.3% -0.9
'05-'06 Tmac: 44.2% -4.7
'06-'07 Tmac: 47.4% -2.2
'07-'08 Tmac: 45.2% -4.6

Kevin Durant eFG% from '08 to '11

'08-'09 Durant: 51.0% +1.1
'09-'10 Durant: 51.4% +1.3
'10-'11 Durant: 53.9% +4.1


I know you never argued otherwise, but it seems like Durant has Tmac beat in efficiency regardless of the era.

[Cali Syndicate]

Maybe....probably...if not now, sooner or later he will.

I enjoyed prime McGrady's game a whole lot more though.

Currently McGrady is putting 16/7/4 at 50% - Solid. Let's go 6th man award.

[Brickz187]

Listen, only person comparable to prime T-Mac was a prime Kobe.

^this is all that needs to be said IMO

[L.Kizzle]

Either way you look at it, one player is a 15 yr vet, the other an up and coming suprstar in his 5th season. So no, he hasn't surpassed 10 years of Macs career. Hell, he hast passed Sprewell or Michael Finley yet. Let KD play some seasons before passing them.

[iDunk]

LOL, are you dumb. Its Durant's 5th season.

[HurricaneKid]

These youngsters have no respect. TMac was a great player. If Grant Hill had stayed healthy he would have been viewed in a similar class as Kobe because that team would have done some things.

As it is his tale is a sad one; his body didn't last as long as we wished it had and when he finally had a solid team around him he was starting to come down off his peak.

IMO he was the best player in the league in 02-03. At least in the conversation with peak Duncan. No one else was close to those two that year including Kobe.

[calvin671996]

You can't stop T-Mac,only can stop him is him. But His scoring don not bring champion to his team.
Durant can score and lead his team to semi-final, he is still young

[ILLsmak]

I'm never going to explain or post stats again.

TMac was better than KD. Not by a lot, but when comparing players that talented... it's a lot. Kind of like winning a 100m sprint by .5 seconds is a lot.

AI and TMac are both amazingly underrated. I like T-Mac but AI deserved a ring more.

-Smak

[ShaqAttack3234]

ShaqAttack, I have nothing to argue with in your post. It seems like we both agree and disagree in certain points but for the most part we are on the same page.

How many more elite seasons do you think Durant will have to have in order to surpass Tmac, or is it not the seasons that matters but just his style of play? If you look at both of their careers and accomplishments, Durant has already surpassed Tmac and I think it is hard to argue against that.

You mentioned TS% earlier about how in Tmac's time it was a different and tougher league to score in, so I just wanted to show you the TS% comparison to the league average at the time.

I got it from this thread....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239585

The +/- show their TS% compared to the league average of TS%.

Tracy McGrady TS% from '00 to '08

'00-'01 Tmac: 52.1% +0.3
'01-'02 Tmac: 53.2% +1.2
'02-'03 Tmac: 56.4% +4.5
'03-'04 Tmac: 52.6% +0.6
'04-'05 Tmac: 52.6% -0.4
'05-'06 Tmac: 49.4% -4.1
'06-'07 Tmac: 51.5% -2.6
'07-'08 Tmac: 48.7% -5.3

Kevin Durant TS% from '08 to '11 (using '11 since Durant's '11-'12 stats will change on any given night)

'08-'09 Durant: 57.7% +3.2
'09-'10 Durant: 60.7% +6.4
'10-'11 Durant: 58.9% +4.7


I'll do the same for eFG% between the two as well.


Tracy McGrady eFG% from '00 to '08

'00-'01 Tmac: 47.4% +0.1
'01-'02 Tmac: 48.3% +0.6
'02-'03 Tmac: 50.5% +3.2
'03-'04 Tmac: 47.3% +0.2
'04-'05 Tmac: 47.3% -0.9
'05-'06 Tmac: 44.2% -4.7
'06-'07 Tmac: 47.4% -2.2
'07-'08 Tmac: 45.2% -4.6

Kevin Durant eFG% from '08 to '11

'08-'09 Durant: 51.0% +1.1
'09-'10 Durant: 51.4% +1.3
'10-'11 Durant: 53.9% +4.1


I know you never argued otherwise, but it seems like Durant has Tmac beat in efficiency regardless of the era.

Yeah, exactly, I'm not disputing that from a statistical standpoint that Durant was more efficient regardless of era, just that the difference is made larger because of eras.

As you can see, T-Mac's '03 season vs league average in TS% was almost identical to the advantage Durant had over league average in '11 and on 32.1 ppg vs Durant's 27.7 in '11.

Durant's '10 season shows a much bigger advantage in TS%, though I do think that is somewhat skewed by what I consider an excessive amount of free throws, there's no doubt that will gain an advantage due to being a superior free throw shooter regardless, and that can't be disregarded because it's a part of the game. And despite that, T-Mac scored 2 more ppg in '03 vs Durant in '10 and did so while being much less turnover prone and then you can compare their playoff series.

Durant in '10 vs Lakers(103.7 defensive rating)- 25 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 3.7 TO, 35 FG%, 49.9 TS%, 6 games
T-Mac in '03 vs Pistons(99.9 defensive rating)- 31.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 4.7 apg, 3.7 TO, 44.8 FG%, 56.1 TS%, 7 games

So, to me, McGrady's '03 season is more impressive from a scoring standpoint, both statistically and as far as what I watched.

In other prime T-Mac seasons, it's more his all around game that gives him the edge.

As far as Durant passing T-Mac on my list. Well, it's inevitable barring injuries. A couple of more extended playoff runs and Durant playing at this level, or improving over the next few years will do it.

[teddytwelvetoes]

Wow, I misread that as Kevin Garnett at first...almost had a heart attack.