Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ...

[kennethgriffin]

....has more points, rebounds, blocks, MVP's, Allstar Games than Michael Jordan... both have 6 championships. but kareem has 4 more finals appearances. both have 10 first team all nba's.. so who is Kobe really chasing? its amaizing what media brain washing can do.... maybe it has something to do with 1 being a flashy dunking christian and the other being a boring hook shot muslim

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/kareem-abdul-jabbar-middle-fingers.jpg

[L8krH8tr]

pretty sure Kareem played when he could dominate tall white guys, also he had quite a bit of help on those stacked Laker teams. Jordan had pippen and scrubs

[DirtySanchez]

pretty sure Kareem played when he could dominate tall white guys, also he had quite a bit of help on those stacked Laker teams. Jordan had pippen and scrubs

He played against Chamberline bro in the 70's.....
Also against stacked team in the 80's...against Monroe, McHale etc.

[ThatsGame]

Plus Kareem was playing for like 20 years.

[DirtySanchez]

Plus Kareem was playing for like 20 years.

That is a testimate to his greatness.

He also went out on top.

How many bigmen have long careers like Kareem did?

Look at Yao Bill Walton etc.

He was dominating in his late 30's.

[RRR3]

Kobe isn't chasing anyone, dumbass. Kareem has a solid argument for being the GOAT, but MJ has a better one. Regardless, Kobe is just not on MJ's or Kareem's level, never has been and never will be.



http://www.unionversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tumblr_lv00ii2Lxk1qdlh1io1_400.gif

[kennethgriffin]

Plus Kareem was playing for like 20 years.


jordan really only dominated for a decade

kareem dominated for 2 full decades


do people realise he carried the bucks to a championship before jerry west got his first ring

then won finals mvp in his 16th season over a prime magic johnson?

[guy]

The championships/Finals comparison to Jordan is very misleading. Out of 6 championships, he probably has 2 that are comparable to Jordan's. The last 2 championships and 3 Finals were almost meaningless to his legacy if you really look at the details and not just the resume. And the same exact thing goes for Kobe which his fans conveniently ignore.

[k0kakw0rld]

....has more points, rebounds, blocks, MVP's, Allstar Games than Michael Jordan... both have 6 championships. but kareem has 4 more finals appearances. both have 10 first team all nba's.. so who is Kobe really chasing? its amaizing what media brain washing can do.... maybe it has something to do with 1 being a flashy dunking christian and the other being a boring hook shot muslim

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/kareem-abdul-jabbar-middle-fingers.jpg
Kareem played 20 seasons 5 more seasons than Jordan. MJ has 6 Finals 6 rings 6 Finals MVP 1st in Career AVG with 30.0 3rd highest career points in 15 seasons enough said :bowdown:

[DirtySanchez]

Also look at Kareems high school and college careers.

I can say this will full confidence...

Kareem is the greatest basketball player from high school through the pros...to ever live.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe isn't chasing anyone, dumbass.

but that would mean you think kobe is the goat since he has no one to catch

whos the dumby now?

:roll:

[DirtySanchez]

Kareem played 20 seasons 5 more seasons than Jordan. MJ has 6 Finals 6 rings 6 Finals MVP 1st in Career AVG with 30.0 3rd highest career points in 15 seasons enough said :bowdown:

I'm sorry...Jordan in his prime takes a hit because of lack of comp.
The 90's was weak compared to the 80's etc.

[Bigsmoke]

MJ got swag, more money, cooler, played for my hometown, and gets more *****

Kareem looked like an overgrown Steve Urkel with those goggles. **** him

Jordan is the G.O.A.T. regardless from from those areas.

[ThatsGame]

That is a testimate to his greatness.

He also went out on top.

How many bigmen have long careers like Kareem did?

Look at Yao Bill Walton etc.

He was dominating in his late 30's.

He was riding behind Magic Johnson more then anything.

Jordan was the main man and brought his team to the championship.

[knightfall88]

hook shot muslim:roll:

[kennethgriffin]

Kareem played 20 seasons 5 more seasons than Jordan. MJ has 6 Finals 6 rings 6 Finals MVP 1st in Career AVG with 30.0 3rd highest career points in 15 seasons enough said :bowdown:

finals appearances are verry valuable to players that have more wins than losses in the finals


i believe that going to 10 finals is verry impressive... especially at a time when there was so many legendary teams...

i'm sure if kareem had the type of competition jordan had... he would be 10 for 10 just like jordan was 6 for 6

[Bigsmoke]

pretty sure Kareem played when he could dominate tall white guys, also he had quite a bit of help on those stacked Laker teams. Jordan had pippen and scrubs

Kareem only shitted on Wilt, Walton "statistically", Moses Malone, Jack Sikma, Hakeem "sometimes" and other legendary centers.

[bwink23]

He played against Chamberline bro in the 70's.....
Also against stacked team in the 80's...against Monroe, McHale etc.


Chamberlain retired in 1972....:facepalm

[Bigsmoke]

Chamberlain retired in 1972....:facepalm

Wilt was still averaging like 20/20 or 15/20 when he was facing Kareem.

Kareem kicked dude ass though :lol

[kennethgriffin]

i bet if jordan was the boring center and kareem was the flashy 2guard with the medias attention... most of the world would have a different opinion

[Whoah10115]

More career points due to having played 6 more seasons (8, if not for the Wizards comeback.


He won one more MVP. Jordan finished #3 only twice in full seasons, from his 3rd onto his last with The Bulls. The other 10 seasons he finished either as a runner-up or 1st.


Kareem has played in more all-star games because, again, he played longer. There was no season where Jordan wasn't an all-star.


Kareem won 4 title as the team's 2nd best player (already 2nd best in 82). Plus, the performance Magic gave in the 1980 Finals was as a co-1st option (tho as a distributor) and the level of that performance was on par with Kareem's.


It has nothing to do with media brainwashing. Magic is a better player than Kareem. You can make a list of accomplishments but that isn't enough to tell a story.




BTW, all the junk I posted doesn't tell any story either. It's the games that do.

[Dave3]

....has more points, rebounds, blocks, MVP's, Allstar Games than Michael Jordan... both have 6 championships. but kareem has 4 more finals appearances. both have 10 first team all nba's.. so who is Kobe really chasing? its amaizing what media brain washing can do.... maybe it has something to do with 1 being a flashy dunking christian and the other being a boring hook shot muslim

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/kareem-abdul-jabbar-middle-fingers.jpg
Then why did you say that MJ was the GOAT and Kobe was 2nd? If KAJ is so close why wasn't he 2nd to you? Makes no sense...

[Pushxx]

Then why did you say that MJ was the GOAT and Kobe was 2nd? If KAJ is so close why wasn't he 2nd to you? Makes no sense...

He's trolling everyone in this thread.

[kennethgriffin]

More career points due to having played 6 more seasons (8, if not for the Wizards comeback.


He won one more MVP. Jordan finished #3 only twice in full seasons, from his 3rd onto his last with The Bulls. The other 10 seasons he finished either as a runner-up or 1st.


Kareem has played in more all-star games because, again, he played longer. There was no season where Jordan wasn't an all-star.


Kareem won 4 title as the team's 2nd best player (already 2nd best in 82). Plus, the performance Magic gave in the 1980 Finals was as a co-1st option (tho as a distributor) and the level of that performance was on par with Kareem's.


It has nothing to do with media brainwashing. Magic is a better player than Kareem. You can make a list of accomplishments but that isn't enough to tell a story.




BTW, all the junk I posted doesn't tell any story either. It's the games that do.


you're just looking at it through context

us kobe fans do the same things when comparring kobe to jordan


whatever fits our agenda right?

"so what if his career is twice as good! kobe won with pau gasol twice and took his bum a** to 3 straight finals..."


doesnt matter what anyone does.. as long as they do something that someone else hasnt done


and kareem has done allllllllllot of things jordan hasnt done

jordan just has the ppg and finals mvps

[Bigsmoke]

i bet if jordan was the boring center and kareem was the flashy 2guard with the medias attention... most of the world would have a different opinion

imagine of MJ had Magic or The Big O :eek:

[Odinn]

hook shot muslim:roll:
3 of top 5 centers ever Muslims. Are you a true idiot?..:facepalm

[DirtySanchez]

Chamberlain retired in 1972....:facepalm

Kareem started in 69

[dunksby]

Kareem = GOAT

[kennethgriffin]

Kareem = GOAT


yea i really dont see how anyone can argue it either

if someone said "if i give you a franchise... and you could transplant any career resume into one of your players. who would it be"


if you sat down and really thought about it... kareem gets the nod

jordan missed a year, retired for 1.5 years. then retired again for 3 more years.... and was crap his last 2 years... so in reality hes only had 11 top teir years

kareems had 17 elite years before slowing down... and didnt take any breaks or had any injuries

[winwin]

Kareem Addul Jabbar is still paying a price for his uppityness.

http://blackathlete.net/artman2/uploads/2/summit.jpg


In 1967, some of the nation's top black athletes came to Cleveland to support Muhammad Ali: Front row: Bill Russell, Ali, Jim Brown, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). Back row: Mayor Carl Stokes, Walter Beach, Bobby Mitchell, Sid Williams, Curtis McClinton, Willie Davis, Jim Shorter and John Wooten.

[kennethgriffin]

Kareem Addul Jabbar is still paying a price for his uppityness.


ive noticed he gets absolutely no love from anyone

remember how awkward it looked when the lakers won the titles with him as an assistant coach... he just creeped over everyone from the back looking sad that no one wanted to hear what he had to say... instead they have magic in the front ( who did nothing but bash the lakers all year on ABC ) holding up the trophy and getting on the mic with all the cheers...

no wonder he was talking sh*t about not getting a statue... even a commentator got one before him

[winwin]

ive noticed he gets absolutely no love from anyone

remember how awkward it looked when the lakers won the titles with him as an assistant coach... he just creeped over everyone from the back looking sad that no one wanted to hear what he had to say... instead they have magic in the front ( who did nothing but bash the lakers all year on ABC ) holding up the trophy and getting on the mic with all the cheers...

no wonder he was talking sh*t about not getting a statue... even a commentator got one before him

Straight No Chaser: Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Never White America's Good Negro
By Desi Cortez

Forgive me, but I can

[DirtySanchez]

He was riding behind Magic Johnson more then anything.

Jordan was the main man and brought his team to the championship.

He was around 20 plus points for most of the Magic Kareem title runs...
Averaging 8 boards a game....and 2 blocks....

That's pretty good to me.

[dunksby]

yea i really dont see how anyone can argue it either

if someone said "if i give you a franchise... and you could transplant any career resume into one of your players. who would it be"


if you sat down and really thought about it... kareem gets the nod

jordan missed a year, retired for 1.5 years. then retired again for 3 more years.... and was crap his last 2 years... so in reality hes only had 11 top teir years

kareems had 17 elite years before slowing down... and didnt take any breaks or had any injuries
Kareem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSoX6qB9N0

MJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRz1acIKfSU

[PistolPete44]

He was around 20 plus points for most of the Magic Kareem title runs...
Averaging 8 boards a game....and 2 blocks....

That's pretty good to me.
Magic was riding behind him:facepalm

[N0Skillz]

I've stated a hundred times Kareem is the GOAT

[Jasper]

Kobe chasing MJ , cause Kareem didn't have the back pedal after a jumper

[ConanRulesNBC]

pretty sure Kareem played when he could dominate tall white guys, also he had quite a bit of help on those stacked Laker teams. Jordan had pippen and scrubs

Kareem would dominate today.

[Lebron23]

The championships/Finals comparison to Jordan is very misleading. Out of 6 championships, he probably has 2 that are comparable to Jordan's. The last 2 championships and 3 Finals were almost meaningless to his legacy if you really look at the details and not just the resume. And the same exact thing goes for Kobe which his fans conveniently ignore.


Repped

Jordan was the undisputed best player of the Bulls championship teams. Kareem is technically a 3x NBA Finals MVP. He should have been the Finals MVP in the 1980 NBA Finals. Kareem didn't play in game 6, but he was the best player in that series.

[Miserio]

imagine of MJ had Magic or The Big O :eek:
Pippen > Big O

[Lebron23]

yea i really dont see how anyone can argue it either

if someone said "if i give you a franchise... and you could transplant any career resume into one of your players. who would it be"


if you sat down and really thought about it... kareem gets the nod

jordan missed a year, retired for 1.5 years. then retired again for 3 more years.... and was crap his last 2 years... so in reality hes only had 11 top teir years

kareems had 17 elite years before slowing down... and didnt take any breaks or had any injuries


Kareem only won 1 NBA title before the Lakers drafted Magic Johnson. Why couldn't Kareem and his Bucks/Lakers didn't win several NBA titles in the 1970's? He was a more dominant individual player in the 1970's.

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe isn't chasing anyone, dumbass. Kareem has a solid argument for being the GOAT, but MJ has a better one. Regardless, Kobe is just not on MJ's or Kareem's level, never has been and never will be.



http://www.unionversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tumblr_lv00ii2Lxk1qdlh1io1_400.gif


3 straight NYC Titles>>>being left off the jv team
3 straight NCAA Titles>>>>1
6 NBA Titles = 6 NBA Titles


lol "MJ has a better one".

Kareem was dominating from the start. Jordan had to be coached to it.

[Pointguard]

It's MJ and it isn't really close. Against top notch talent while being the man, Kareem barely proved himself. While people will people will say Kareem was the better player a few of the young Magic Johnson years, he was on Magic's ship. Magic was the engine, the captain, the leader, the decision maker, the guy that controlled pace, the guy that featured (something he really brought to the game) Kareem above other players, the glue guy, the guy that harmonized the Kareem game and the running game, the guy that got everybody on the same page, the inspiration and guide.

Kareem scored more and was dominant in the paint - but that did little for him in one of suckiest era's in basketball AND when he had more energy in his prime. After only two years Magic even out-rebounded him every year. Magic was just more involved, a natural leader and way more hands on. If the game was more one dimensional then, and only then, can you say Magic was the number two guy.

[Nevaeh]

[QUOTE=winwin]Straight No Chaser: Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Never White America's Good Negro
By Desi Cortez

Forgive me, but I can

[Pointguard]

Wilt was still averaging like 20/20 or 15/20 when he was facing Kareem.

Kareem kicked dude ass though :lol
Wilt outplayed Kareem in the playoffs when he was averaging less than 40% of his peak in points and looking at retirement coming off of hip surgery against Kareem's second most prolific year. This is tantamount to using Wilt's second best year of 45ppg and 23 year to Kareem's third worst year of 14.5 and 6 and expecting Kareem to outplay Wilt. That just, should not be.

[305Baller]

Maybe Kareem's not loved because he made himself so aloof and unapproachable for years. In this life, you get what you give. You show love, you receive it in return. Nobody hated Kareem because he was a muslim, or a "Strong Black Man". He was hated because that's what he dished out.

And what's up with people demanding athletes become politicians and activists for the plights of the world? They play sports, period. Nobody expects Brad Pitt or Beyonce to change the world. So why would they expect Black Athletes, who's claim to fame is playing a sport really well, to be able to change the world, if that's not where their passion lies?

Bill Cosby is a perfect example of what happens when you speak out about the problems and then offer solutions. People turn on you, and then whine about the solutions, because they actually require WORK, something some people have a hard time with.

who expects an NBA player to be the messiah? lunacy.

[RRR3]

Pippen > Big O
:roll:

[Dave3]

3 straight NYC Titles>>>being left off the jv team
3 straight NCAA Titles>>>>1
6 NBA Titles = 6 NBA Titles


lol "MJ has a better one".

Kareem was dominating from the start. Jordan had to be coached to it.
When you resort to comparing high school accomplishments you've lost the argument a long time ago. Speaking as someone who hasn't seen either of them play (and I'm sure you haven't either), once you brought up high school (and even college) to prove a point, you convinced me of the opposite of what you were trying to do. Well done lol.

[StateOfMind12]

If you just flat out look at Kareem's accomplishments and nothing else, you would think he is the GOAT. However, if you take his stuff into context you would know that he is not.

I never watched Kareem play....at least live like I did with MJ. I do know on the other hand that MJ's accomplishments/championships are worth a bit more than Kareem's. The biggest thing that separates MJ from Kareem is the fact that all 6 of his championships came from being "the man, i.e. best player and leader on his team." Whereas Kareem became kind of a sidekick or a 1a, 1b option with Magic in the 80s. There is no question that what Kareem did was instrumental and important for the Lakers in the 80s, but it isn't worth as much as MJ's.

People didn't believe it was even possible for a perimeter player to be the best player and leader of a dynasty until they saw Jordan came into the league and dominate. The league was always big men oriented and big men dominated until Jordan rolled around and because of Jordan, perimeter players are now favored in today's league because this league wants to see another Jordan even though it will never happen.

I would say these two players are the #1 and #2 greatest players of all-time. Two of the best two-way players to ever play the game. If Magic had elite/great defense or if Russell had elite/great offense then I would consider putting one of those two over either Kareem or MJ, but since they didn't they're behind him. Oddly enough though after MJ and Kareem on my all-time list, I have Magic and Russell next at #3 and #4.

[StateOfMind12]

The championships/Finals comparison to Jordan is very misleading. Out of 6 championships, he probably has 2 that are comparable to Jordan's. The last 2 championships and 3 Finals were almost meaningless to his legacy if you really look at the details and not just the resume. And the same exact thing goes for Kobe which his fans conveniently ignore.
I would say 3 of his championship rings are comparable to MJ's. A lot of people argue that Kareem should have been the one that won the Finals MVP in 1980. Yeah we all know Magic Johnson played amazing in that Game 6, but what about all those other games in the series? Kareem was clearly better in that series and because of that a lot of people feel like Kareem should have been the one that won the finals MVP and a lot felt like Kareem was the best player on that team.

I agree with everything else you stated though although I am not sure if you are very saying Kobe's last 2 championships and 3 finals are meaningless because they are not. If anything they are worth a lot more than the other championships and finals appearances he had in the early 2000s. None of Kobe or Kareem for that matter championships and finals are meaningless at all, less meaning than MJs? More than likely. But completely meaningless and worthless? Not at all.

[guy]

I would say 3 of his championship rings are comparable to MJ's. A lot of people argue that Kareem should have been the one that won the Finals MVP in 1980. Yeah we all know Magic Johnson played amazing in that Game 6, but what about all those other games in the series? Kareem was clearly better in that series and because of that a lot of people feel like Kareem should have been the one that won the finals MVP and a lot felt like Kareem was the best player on that team.

I agree with everything else you stated though although I am not sure if you are very saying Kobe's last 2 championships and 3 finals are meaningless because they are not. If anything they are worth a lot more than the other championships and finals appearances he had in the early 2000s. None of Kobe or Kareem for that matter championships and finals are meaningless at all, less meaning than MJs? More than likely. But completely meaningless and worthless? Not at all.

I'm talking about there runs as a whole. Regular season, Playoffs, Finals. The only Kareem runs that compare to Jordan's 91-93 and 96-98 are 71 and 80. He won Finals MVP in 1985, but he wasn't anywhere near as dominant throughout the year as Jordan was for all of his championships.

I never said any of Kobe's or Kareem's titles/Finals were meaningless except for arguably Kareem's last few. Not meaningless, but that of a role player. Its just common for people assume 1 title won by a player is weighted the same as another, which clearly isn't true. Some do win titles by making bigger contributions. People are so hell bent on emphasizing that "its a team sport blah blah blah" that they are reluctant to point this out. Oh well.

[guy]

3 straight NYC Titles>>>being left off the jv team
3 straight NCAA Titles>>>>1
6 NBA Titles = 6 NBA Titles


lol "MJ has a better one".

Kareem was dominating from the start. Jordan had to be coached to it.

Completely dumb to bring this up. In HS and NCAA, they aren't always going up against top competition or playing with the top players. According to you, guys like Christian Laettner should be more highly regarded in basketball history.

[Chrono90]

It's gotta be the shoes...

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9458/shoesww.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/shoesww.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[AlphaWolf24]

It's really quite clear that Kareem was a much more dominant player and much more valuable player to his team then Jordan ever was....

Factor in NCAA acomplishments and it's not even close....Kareem destroys MJ..

the problem is MJ's game was a much more pleasing game to watch (to the majority of fans)...MJ's personality and style moved about 2,000,000,000,000 nikes and allowed him to become a a world wide celebrity on a much greater level then KAJ..


but everything the OP is talking about is reality....KAJ is a once in a lifetime player....who absolutley dominated on a level unmatched by anyone not named Russell...

(also in the greatest era ever..)

[AlphaWolf24]

Completely dumb to bring this up. In HS and NCAA, they aren't always going up against top competition or playing with the top players. According to you, guys like Christian Laettner should be more highly regarded in basketball history.

If you use "top competion" agenda...then...

Jordan did not always gop against top competion at the NBA Level....when he did face top competition.... he lost...

The 80's was by far the greatest era of basketball....and the great teams of the 80's abused Jordan's Bull's making them stepping stones for Championships runs..

after the great teams of the 80's dismantled or got old and injured/ the NBA adding 5 teams watering down the league (international players were not anywhere near the level of today) they had to fill rosters with Hacks and scrubs Jordan could finally win....heck I could drop 30 PPG on the 90's Bullets :roll:



and MJ in college choked 2 years in a row......despite playing against lower competion on the most talented team in the NCAA's..

[guy]

If you use "top competion" agenda...then...

Jordan did not always gop against top competion at the NBA Level....when he did face top competition.... he lost...

The 80's was by far the greatest era of basketball....and the great teams of the 80's abused Jordan's Bull's making them stepping stones for Championships runs..

after the great teams of the 80's dismantled or got old and injured/ the NBA adding 5 teams watering down the league (international players were not anywhere near the level of today) they had to fill rosters with Hacks and scrubs Jordan could finally win....heck I could drop 30 PPG on the 90's Bullets :roll:



and MJ in college choked 2 years in a row......despite playing against lower competion on the most talented team in the NCAA's..

Wow. The difference between competition in the 80s and 90s if any is minimal. You're talking about HS and NCAA runs, which is a huge difference. Its ridiculous to bring that up. Every NBA player dominates HS and NCAA. Then they come to the NBA and its completely different. Its especially dumb to bring up HS. Its like a 12-year old playing in a 9-year old's league.

I don't even know why im responding to you. No one takes you seriously.

[Foster5k]

Lol Kareem had it easy. Dude was tall as hell and all he had to do was lay the ball in the hoop.

Micheal Jordan performed circus shots over guys taller than him and dominated the game.

[AlphaWolf24]

Wow. The difference between competition in the 80s and 90s if any is minimal. You're talking about HS and NCAA runs, which is a huge difference. Its ridiculous to bring that up. Every NBA player dominates HS and NCAA. Then they come to the NBA and its completely different. Its especially dumb to bring up HS. Its like a 12-year old playing in a 9-year old's league.

I don't even know why im responding to you. No one takes you seriously.


Nearly all the great players who dominated the 80's said the 90's are waterd down....and since you prolly never even watched 80's or 90's basketball....yes they were much different..

80's had many skilled players on a much more concentrated teams allowing for a much more open style game with excellent ball movement.

90's had some skilled players spread thin over many teams leading to 1 vs 1 basketball (skill player gets ball....hack teamates move outt his way)....slow down the game with prison ball defense to lesson possesion time for more 1 vs 1 basketball.


and since you are Jordan stan.....remember he was cut in highschool:rolleyes: ...so much for dominating.


and why do you respond?..because you are deep in my pocket...

[AlphaWolf24]

Lol Kareem had it easy. Dude was tall as hell and all he had to do was lay the ball in the hoop.

Micheal Jordan performed circus shots over guys taller than him and dominated the game.


Shawn Bradley and Yao Ming say HI...Yao Ming is 6" taller then shaq.....he never dominated like kareem or wilt.

[Talent]

If you go by winning alone it would be Bill Rusell :lol

[Foster5k]

Yao Ming say HI.
:oldlol:

Yao Ming would of been the best center in the NBA, since Shaq, if not for his glass feet.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Kareem is the GOAT for knowledgeable NBA fans.

Jordan is the GOAT for media brain-washed ppl.

[Foster5k]

Kareem is the GOAT for knowledgeable NBA fans.

Jordan is the GOAT for media brain-washed ppl.
Says the guy named Mr. Jabbar. :D

[Scholar]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = GOAT? I believe it.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kareem, Jordan, and Russell have the best cases for GOAT.

It's all up for debate, really.

[PistolPete44]

manute bol was 7ft7 and he only averaged 3 points in his career
ish wilt/kareem haters die please

[PistolPete44]

Kareem, Jordan, and Russell have the best cases for GOAT.

It's all up for debate, really.
no Wilt :lol :lol :lol :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ISH :facepalm

[RRR3]

Kareem, Jordan, and Russell have the best cases for GOAT.

It's all up for debate, really.
Wilt

[Legends66NBA7]

no Wilt :lol :lol :lol :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ISH :facepalm

I forgot about him. Relax.

I don't think he gets over Kareem or Russell, IMO. But yes he has a case too.

And I understand you can't read, so i said the BEST cases.

[Legends66NBA7]

Wilt

Would you say Oscar has a case too ?

I remember Kblaze said that his peers considered him the GOAT at one point in time.

[millwad]

Wilt
No, dick.
Wilt won too few titles and when he di win he did it with HOF players. The guy as the fourth option on offense when he got his 2nd ring..

[Legends66NBA7]

No, dick.
Wilt won too few titles and when he di win he did it with HOF players. The guy as the fourth option on offense when he got his 2nd ring..

That's why I don't think he has one of the BEST cases. Top 5 ever in my book, but he's not over those 3 I mentioned.

[StateOfMind12]

Wilt has no argument as the GOAT, none. He is not even a top 5 player of all-time.

[dunksby]

Kareem won a title by sweeping Baltimore in the finals only in his third year, MJ had to wait for the crew to join him so he could win his first seven years after he entered the league.

[Pointguard]

Wilt has no argument as the GOAT, none. He is not even a top 5 player of all-time.

Why not? When he had slowed down and was producing half of what he was during his seven year peak pointwise, he could still outplay Kareem when Kareem was in one of his most productive years.

[StateOfMind12]

Why not? When he had slowed down and was producing half of what he was during his seven year peak pointwise, he could still outplay Kareem when Kareem was in one of his most productive years.
The fact that he was a stat-padder that consistently underachieved would be why. People just look at his stats and take at face-value and not understand how or why he got those stats. Wilt was a player that preferred stats over wins, pretty much the complete opposite of what Russell did and preferred.

[dunksby]

Why not? When he had slowed down and was producing half of what he was during his seven year peak pointwise, he could still outplay Kareem when Kareem was in one of his most productive years.
Shut your ignorant trap:

23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA L

24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA L

25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA W

26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA W

27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA L

28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA W

[N0Skillz]

Kareem is GOAT and always has been GOAT

[AlexanderRight]

Wilt has no argument as the GOAT, none. He is not even a top 5 player of all-time.

:no:

[Legends66NBA7]

Kareem is GOAT and always has been GOAT

Nothing is ever unanimous though.

I don't mind you saying that Kareem's GOAT, just the "always has been" part isn't necessarily true, even if that were to be the case.

[Pointguard]

Shut your ignorant trap:

23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA L

24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA L

25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA W

26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA W

27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA L

28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA W

:lol Dunce boy :cletus: Learn to read goofy. If I said 72 Wilt would have been at 1/3 of his scoring peak.

Post season

[AlexanderRight]

Kareem won a title by sweeping Baltimore in the finals only in his third year, MJ had to wait for the crew to join him so he could win his first seven years after he entered the league.

I know right. Who needs teammates to win a championship :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

I know right. Who needs teammates to win a championship :facepalm

+1.

That 1971 Bucks team was also considered one of the greatest ever. Sure, the year wasn't very strong, but the talent in undeniable on that team.

[dunksby]

I know right. Who needs teammates to win a championship :facepalm
I was addressing those who were criticizing Kareem cause he won 5 rings with Magic, so I countered their argument.

[dunksby]

:lol Dunce boy :cletus: Learn to read goofy. If I said 72 Wilt would have been at 1/3 of his scoring peak.

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W

This is tantamount to Kareem in 88 going up against Shaq in 01.
All I see is a young Kareem holding his own and winning against a stat padder who got his kicks from playing volleyball with the backboard.

[oolalaa]

:lol Dunce boy :cletus: Learn to read goofy. If I said 72 Wilt would have been at 1/3 of his scoring peak.

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W

This is tantamount to Kareem in 88 going up against Shaq in 01.

:roll: :oldlol: :roll: I think you mean '82 Kareem going up against '95 Shaq.


SLIGHT DIFFERENCE

[Pointguard]

The fact that he was a stat-padder that consistently underachieved would be why. People just look at his stats and take at face-value and not understand how or why he got those stats. Wilt was a player that preferred stats over wins, pretty much the complete opposite of what Russell did and preferred.

I said he outplayed him mano a mano. A lot of people in the media said Wilt outplayed Kareem the next year as well despite the stats being in Kareem's favor. Stats could be thrown out the window, he outplayed him when Wilt's production was waaay down from his peak.

How he got those stats? Back then you earned them. Wilt definitely didn't get those stats with the aid of a Magic Johnson who, many times did half the work. Rebounds and points are effort related.

If you want to talk about winning Kareem didn't do much in the weakest basketball era. One could make an argument that Rick Barry and Wes Unseld (yeah, those greats) were as good of franchise players as was Kareem in Kareem's prime years or before Magic came with his winning ways. What's wild is that in those years there really wasn't a franchise team. And Kareem wasn't going against any dynasties laden with HOF talent. After nine years you kind of know a player and Kareem didn't get it done. There was nothing in KAJ history that said he would thrive, with wins, in a more competitive era that featured four franchises when he rarely won in an era that had none.

In one of the greatest era's of the sport Magic was the franchise player. Management knew it and treated it as such. Kareem acknowledged it and disdained it. But Magic was the greatest team player ever and could feature other players. He was an inspiration to team and a great jolt in the arm. Franchises tell the story of winning in basketball moreso than any other factor. And Kareem was never the cornerstone of a franchise. A big and important piece, Yes. As a player he was Great. So was Wilt. But both were hurt by the franchise argument.

[dunksby]

How he got those stats? Back then you earned them. Wilt definitely didn't get those stats with the aid of a Magic Johnson who, many times did half the work. Rebounds and points are effort related.


Stopped reading after that.

[Pointguard]

:roll: :oldlol: :roll: I think you mean '82 Kareem going up against '95 Shaq.


SLIGHT DIFFERENCE
No, you're missing the point. I'm saying Kareem's second or third worst year against Shaq's second best which could be '95 (obviously Shaq never had a 45ppg season with 23 rebounds like Wilt but I was going for his peak play). Kareem in 82 was far from being at his worse. Wilt was in one of his worse three years and outplaying Kareem is the point.

[Pointguard]

Stopped reading after that.
I know, reading is hard for you.

[dunksby]

I know, reading my incomprehensible train of ignorance is hard for you.
fixed.

[oolalaa]

I said he outplayed him mano a mano. A lot of people in the media said Wilt outplayed Kareem the next year as well despite the stats being in Kareem's favor. Stats could be thrown out the window, he outplayed him when Wilt's production was waaay down from his peak.

How he got those stats? Back then you earned them. Wilt definitely didn't get those stats with the aid of a Magic Johnson who, many times did half the work. Rebounds and points are effort related.

If you want to talk about winning Kareem didn't do much in the weakest basketball era. One could make an argument that Rick Barry and Wes Unseld (yeah, those greats) were as good of franchise players as was Kareem in Kareem's prime years or before Magic came with his winning ways. What's wild is that in those years there really wasn't a franchise team. And Kareem wasn't going against any dynasties laden with HOF talent. After nine years you kind of know a player and Kareem didn't get it done. There was nothing in KAJ history that said he would thrive, with wins, in a more competitive era that featured four franchises when he rarely won in an era that had none.

In one of the greatest era's of the sport Magic was the franchise player. Management knew it and treated it as such. Kareem acknowledged it and disdained it. But Magic was the greatest team player ever and could feature other players. He was an inspiration to team and a great jolt in the arm. Franchises tell the story of winning in basketball moreso than any other factor. And Kareem was never the cornerstone of a franchise. A big and important piece, Yes. As a player he was Great. So was Wilt. But both were hurt by the franchise argument.

I don't want to go into the early 70s Wilt vs Kareem debate but I will say that it's fallacious to conclude that Wilt outplayed Kareem in their two playoff series against each other. Wilt should be applauded for his superb defense on Kareem, especially in '72, but he got comprehensively outscored by Kareem in both series.

I completely agree with the rest of your post though. Magic saved Kareem's legacy somewhat. Magic was the leader, playmaker and driving force for 4 of those championships in the 80s. Kareem should be thanking the basketball gods on a daily basis for Magic coming along when he did.

[dunksby]

I don't want to go into the early 70s Wilt vs Kareem debate but I will say that it's fallacious to conclude that Wilt outplayed Kareem in their two playoff series against each other. Wilt should be applauded for his superb defense on Kareem, especially in '72, but he got comprehensively outscored by Kareem in both series.

I completely agree with the rest of your post though. Magic saved Kareem's legacy somewhat. Magic was the leader, playmaker and driving force for 4 of those championships in the 80s. Kareem should be thanking the basketball gods on a daily basis for Magic coming along when he did.
All those legends with a ring have a few to thank for.

[oolalaa]

All those legends with a ring have a few to thank for.

None more so than Kareem.

[dunksby]

None more so than Kareem.
I agree. Kareem has Magic to thank for while others need to thank more elements Phil Jackson, Pippen, Rodman, HIV Virus.

[Pointguard]

I don't want to go into the early 70s Wilt vs Kareem debate but I will say that it's fallacious to conclude that Wilt outplayed Kareem in their two playoff series against each other. Wilt should be applauded for his superb defense on Kareem, especially in '72, but he got comprehensively outscored by Kareem in both series.

Comprehensivley??? Where is that? I give you '72. But in 71 he did get outscored but it was 25 to 22 and Kareem missed a quite a bit more. At this time Wilt is averaging less than half of his prime. I doubt that there is another example in basketball where a great is at half of his scoring prime is outplaying another great in one of his most productive years. Its rare that great players even play at that point (half of their scoring prime) - unless of course you got Magic helping you out: Kareem was at less than half his rebounding peak in '83 and played 6 more year years. This never happens. Magic was out of this world.

[Psileas]

I don't want to go into the early 70s Wilt vs Kareem debate but I will say that it's fallacious to conclude that Wilt outplayed Kareem in their two playoff series against each other. Wilt should be applauded for his superb defense on Kareem, especially in '72, but he got comprehensively outscored by Kareem in both series.

No, not in both series, only in '72. In '71, Kareem only outscored him by 3 ppg. His biggest edge, actually, came from passing (4.2 vs 2.0), while Wilt outrebounded him (18.8 vs 17.6) and, according to the accounts, outblocked him by a lot. Wilt also slightly outshot Kareem (48.9% FG vs 48.1%, both clearly below their averages), while I guess Kareem shot better from the line (don't have his numbers).
Going game by game in '71, Kareem statistically clearly outplayed Wilt in only 1 game, Wilt outplayed Kareem in 3 and you can make a case for both for the 5th one.

1972 is another story and a point where I disagreed with fellow Wilt fan Jlauber, but I expect anyone who agrees with me about the 1972 outcome to view Wilt's battles vs Russell in the same light.

[oolalaa]

Comprehensivley??? Where is that? I give you '72. But in 71 he did get outscored but it was 25 to 22 and Kareem missed a quite a bit more. At this time Wilt is averaging less than half of his prime. I doubt that there is another example in basketball where a great is at half of his scoring prime is outplaying another great. Its rare that great players even play at that point - unless of course you got Magic helping you out: Kareem was at less than half his rebounding peak in '83 and played 6 more year years. This never happens. Magic was out of this world.

I should have said that Wilt got comprehensively outscored across both series. Both series combined...

Wilt - 18ppg on 51%
Kareem - 27ppg on 45%

Wilt did not outplay Kareem in either series. You could argue that Wilt held Kareem to a draw in '71 but in '72 he got outscored by 14ppg!! (I know he was much more efficient than Kareem but that doesn't make up for the discrepancy) Like I said, Wilt did a great job defensively on Kareem but he was an afterthought on offense, especially in '72.

[oolalaa]

No, not in both series, only in '72. In '71, Kareem only outscored him by 3 ppg. His biggest edge, actually, came from passing (4.2 vs 2.0), while Wilt outrebounded him (18.8 vs 17.6) and, according to the accounts, outblocked him by a lot. Wilt also slightly outshot Kareem (48.9% FG vs 48.1%, both clearly below their averages), while I guess Kareem shot better from the line (don't have his numbers).
Going game by game in '71, Kareem statistically clearly outplayed Wilt in only 1 game, Wilt outplayed Kareem in 3 and you can make a case for both for the 5th one.

1972 is another story and a point where I disagreed with fellow Wilt fan Jlauber, but I expect anyone who agrees with me about the 1972 outcome to view Wilt's battles vs Russell in the same light.

I'm happy to concede that Wilt played Kareem to a draw in '71 but that's as far as I'll go. I cannot see any justification for him outplaying Kareem.

And you're right about '72. jlauber really should take off his rose tinted spectacles when talking about that series.

Judging by the bolded statement I'm guessing you think that Wilt > Russell. I certainly do not want to get into that debate now (No, really! I debated with jlauber about Wilt recently. We don't want to incite him into sidetracking another thread) but I will say that Wilt didn't possess any where near the intangibles that Russell did for the '72 WCFs to mirror the Wilt vs Russell battles...

[jlauber]

I'm happy to concede that Wilt played Kareem to a draw in '71 but that's as far as I'll go. I cannot see any justification for him outplaying Kareem.

And you're right about '72. jlauber really should take off his rose tinted spectacles when talking about that series.

Judging by the bolded statement I'm guessing you think that Wilt > Russell. I certainly do not want to get into that debate now (No, really! I debated with jlauber about Wilt recently. We don't want to incite him into sidetracking another thread) but I will say that Wilt didn't possess any where near the intangibles that Russell did for the '72 WCFs to mirror the Wilt vs Russell battles...

I'll save myself some time here. Take a look at PHILA's VOLUMINOUS posts on the '72 WCF's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6411818&posted=1#post6411818

Virtually EVERYONE who actually WATCHED the '72 WCF's claimed that Wilt OUTPLAYED Kareem. You have the MILWAUKEE press claiming Wilt outplayed him. You have the MILWAUKEE coach citing CHAMBERLAIN as the difference in that series. And you have TIME MAGAZINE proclaiming that Wilt DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem.

So just what in the hell series were YOU watching???!!!

BTW, I too actually SAW every one of those games LIVE, and Wilt reduced Kareem to a helpless bricklayer in that series. Kareem outscored Wilt, but he shot .457 over the course of the entire series, and he MISSED 107 shots (MANY of which Wilt BLOCKED.) Furthermore, Kareem shot an absymal .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series. AND, in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six, Wilt DOMINATED Kareem down the stretch.


As for the '71 WCF's, Wilt, at 34, and a year removed from MAJOR KNEE surgery, AND in arguably his WORST post-season of his career, battled a PRIME Kareem, in perhaps his greatest season (counting both the regular season and playoffs), in a year in which he led the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg; shot .577 (and that .577 was his highest differential against the league average in his career, of .128 ...against a league that shot .449); with the MVP and the FMVP, to a statistical DRAW.

Pslieas already posted the numbers, but Kareem outscored Wilt in that series, per game, 25-22; while Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 19-17; and outshot Kareem, .489 to .481 (while blocking MANY of his shots.)

In fact, how about ALL TEN H2H games of that '71 season (five in the regular season, and five in the post-season)? Kareem held a 26.3 to 22.4 ppg edge, while Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 16.9 rpg to 15.2 rpg, and outshot Kareem from the floor, .478 to .454. Here again, a PRIME Kareem against a Wilt in arguably the WORST season of his career.


And how about Kareem's shooting against Wilt in Chamberlain's LAST season in the league, and at age 36? The two met six times in that regular season, and ONCE AGAIN, Kareem shot WAY LESS than his FG% against the league. During the entire regular season, Kareem shot .554 against the NBA. In those six games against Wilt? .450! BTW, Wilt shot .an astonishing .737 against Kareem in those six games.

AND, in one of their H2H's in that LAST season, Wilt, who averaged 7 FGAs per game that season, OUTSCORED Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.


BTW, how about their only H2H game before Wilt sustained his knee injury, and in 1969? Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.

In fact, if you include that game, and add it to their '71 10 H2H games, here are their numbers over the course of their first 11 games:

Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 26.1 ppg to 22.6 ppg. Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg. And Wilt outshot Kareem by a .490 to .454 margin.


Of course...ALL of those games involved a statistically PRIME Kareem...and a Wilt who was well past his most dominant scoring seasons.

A PRIME Chamberlain hung THREE games of 50+ on HOFer Willis Reed in his career, with a HIGH game of 58 points. And Wilt hung THREE games of 60+ points on 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, including a staggering 73-36 game.

Kareem faced BOTH Reed and Bellamy (and both were past their primes), MANY times, and he never came close to putting up those numbers against either. How come?

And how about this interesting stat? A PRIME Wilt only faced 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond in a handful of games (once again, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt.) He had SEVERAL games of 30+, and a HIGH game of 45 points against Thurmond (outscoring Nate by a 45-13 margin.)

Even in a game in his 66-67 season, when he dramatically cut back his shooting, Wilt was asked by his coach, at halftime, to take it to Thurmond. Chamberlain responded with 24 second half points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game against Nate.

Now, a PRIME Kareem faced Thurmond in some 50+ H2H games, and he SELDOM even scored 30+ against Thurmond. His HIGH game, in those 50+ H2H games was only 34 points against Nate. And he shot HORRIBLY against Thurmond in their career H2H's. In fact, without taking the time to look up their numbers, I am very confident that Kareem shot less than 45% against Thurmond in his CAREER. He had three straight post-season series against Thurmond of .486, .405, and .428.

BTW, Wilt, in his three post-season series against Thurmond, outshot Nate in those three series by margins of .560 to .343, .500 to .392, and .550 to .398.


So, we KNOW that a a WAY past his prime Wilt could battle a statistically PRIME Kareem to a draw. And we KNOW that a WAY past his prime Wilt was UNIVERSALLY hailed as outplaying a Kareem, in his GREATEST statistical season, in the '72 WCF's.

What we never saw, however, was a PRIME Chamberlain, who could dump 40-50- ppg games on Reed, Russell, and Thurmond, in games in the 65-66 season...go up against a PRIME Kareem.

Based on what we do KNOW, though, I don't think there is any doubt that a PRIME Chamberlain would have more than held his own against a PRIME Kareem.

[jlauber]

The fact that he was a stat-padder that consistently underachieved would be why. People just look at his stats and take at face-value and not understand how or why he got those stats. Wilt was a player that preferred stats over wins, pretty much the complete opposite of what Russell did and preferred.

Truly laughable. Wilt DOMINATED in his POST-SEASONS. He played in 29 post-season series, and in those he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games (and a multiple all-star center in another 20 games.) And he was SELDOM outplayed in ANY single games, much less an entire series. He was only outscored in five of his 29 series. I could only find ONE series in which he was outshot from the floor. And he was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them. In fact, he had series with HUGE margins in scoring, rebounding, and FG%, and in many cases, in ALL three categories at the same time.

He played in 14 seasons. He only played on two losing teams (and NO ONE has ever played better on a losing team than Chamberlain did.) He went to the Conference Finals TWELVE times (by comparison, Bird only went eight times.) His teams were division champions, SIX times. His team's were Conference champs, SIX times. They went to SIX Finals (Bird, with STACKED teams in his entire career, only went to five.) He played on FOUR teams that had the BEST RECORD in the league. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games (Russell only played on THREE BTW.) He played on two teams that went 68-13 and 69-13 (including 33 straight wins.) And he anchored TWO teams that won overwhelming titles.

Wilt against Russell in the post-season? They met EIGHT times. Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY post-season (and in the VAST majority of their 49 post-season games), and MANY by MASSIVE margins. Chamberlain had FOUR series against Russell of 30+ ppg, and two more of 29 and 28 ppg. He had THREE series against Russell of 30+ rpg (including a 30-31 seven game series.) He had SEVERAL post-seasons of 50%+ shooting (with a high of .556), while Russell shot less than .358 in one, and probably under .399 in at least a couple more. In fact, the HIGH series that I could find by Russell against Wilt , was only .451.

Do you want me to compare the "clutch" Bird to Wilt in the post-season? I can guarantee you, it won't be pretty for Bird.

But yes, that was Wilt the "underachieving" "stats-padder.":facepalm

[dude77]

pretty sure Kareem played when he could dominate tall white guys, also he had quite a bit of help on those stacked Laker teams. Jordan had pippen and scrubs
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc494/steelermia/cxzx.jpg


why is this racist bullshit allowed on here ? .. I keep seeing little comments like this in threads .. apparently it is perfectly fine to make racist, derogatory comments about white people on here ..

[onhcetum]

People forget Jordan was drafted in 1984 and played six seasons in the 1980s. He never won a title until after the Show Time Lakers disbanded (1991 doesn't count by the way lol), Larry Bird messed up his back, and the Pistons got old.

[dude77]

People forget Jordan was drafted in 1984 and played six seasons in the 1980s. He never won a title until after the Show Time Lakers disbanded (1991 doesn't count by the way lol), Larry Bird messed up his back, and the Pistons got old.

hmm interesting observation .. makes you step back and think for a second

[Nevaeh]

hmm interesting observation .. makes you step back and think for a second

Yeah, it's kinda how the early 2000 Lakers couldn't win until the late 90s Bulls were broken up. :rolleyes: Players retire, new ones take their place. The F@ck wrong with this forum lately? :oldlol:

[colts19]

I'll save myself some time here. Take a look at PHILA's VOLUMINOUS posts on the '72 WCF's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6411818&posted=1#post6411818

Virtually EVERYONE who actually WATCHED the '72 WCF's claimed that Wilt OUTPLAYED Kareem. You have the MILWAUKEE press claiming Wilt outplayed him. You have the MILWAUKEE coach citing CHAMBERLAIN as the difference in that series. And you have TIME MAGAZINE proclaiming that Wilt DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem.

So just what in the hell series were YOU watching???!!!

BTW, I too actually SAW every one of those games LIVE, and Wilt reduced Kareem to a helpless bricklayer in that series. Kareem outscored Wilt, but he shot .457 over the course of the entire series, and he MISSED 107 shots (MANY of which Wilt BLOCKED.) Furthermore, Kareem shot an absymal .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series. AND, in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six, Wilt DOMINATED Kareem down the stretch.


As for the '71 WCF's, Wilt, at 34, and a year removed from MAJOR KNEE surgery, AND in arguably his WORST post-season of his career, battled a PRIME Kareem, in perhaps his greatest season (counting both the regular season and playoffs), in a year in which he led the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg; shot .577 (and that .577 was his highest differential against the league average in his career, of .128 ...against a league that shot .449); with the MVP and the FMVP, to a statistical DRAW.

Pslieas already posted the numbers, but Kareem outscored Wilt in that series, per game, 25-22; while Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 19-17; and outshot Kareem, .489 to .481 (while blocking MANY of his shots.)

In fact, how about ALL TEN H2H games of that '71 season (five in the regular season, and five in the post-season)? Kareem held a 26.3 to 22.4 ppg edge, while Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 16.9 rpg to 15.2 rpg, and outshot Kareem from the floor, .478 to .454. Here again, a PRIME Kareem against a Wilt in arguably the WORST season of his career.


And how about Kareem's shooting against Wilt in Chamberlain's LAST season in the league, and at age 36? The two met six times in that regular season, and ONCE AGAIN, Kareem shot WAY LESS than his FG% against the league. During the entire regular season, Kareem shot .554 against the NBA. In those six games against Wilt? .450! BTW, Wilt shot .an astonishing .737 against Kareem in those six games.

AND, in one of their H2H's in that LAST season, Wilt, who averaged 7 FGAs per game that season, OUTSCORED Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.


BTW, how about their only H2H game before Wilt sustained his knee injury, and in 1969? Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.

In fact, if you include that game, and add it to their '71 10 H2H games, here are their numbers over the course of their first 11 games:

Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 26.1 ppg to 22.6 ppg. Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg. And Wilt outshot Kareem by a .490 to .454 margin.


Of course...ALL of those games involved a statistically PRIME Kareem...and a Wilt who was well past his most dominant scoring seasons.

A PRIME Chamberlain hung THREE games of 50+ on HOFer Willis Reed in his career, with a HIGH game of 58 points. And Wilt hung THREE games of 60+ points on 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, including a staggering 73-36 game.

Kareem faced BOTH Reed and Bellamy (and both were past their primes), MANY times, and he never came close to putting up those numbers against either. How come?

And how about this interesting stat? A PRIME Wilt only faced 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond in a handful of games (once again, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt.) He had SEVERAL games of 30+, and a HIGH game of 45 points against Thurmond (outscoring Nate by a 45-13 margin.)

Even in a game in his 66-67 season, when he dramatically cut back his shooting, Wilt was asked by his coach, at halftime, to take it to Thurmond. Chamberlain responded with 24 second half points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game against Nate.

Now, a PRIME Kareem faced Thurmond in some 50+ H2H games, and he SELDOM even scored 30+ against Thurmond. His HIGH game, in those 50+ H2H games was only 34 points against Nate. And he shot HORRIBLY against Thurmond in their career H2H's. In fact, without taking the time to look up their numbers, I am very confident that Kareem shot less than 45% against Thurmond in his CAREER. He had three straight post-season series against Thurmond of .486, .405, and .428.

BTW, Wilt, in his three post-season series against Thurmond, outshot Nate in those three series by margins of .560 to .343, .500 to .392, and .550 to .398.


So, we KNOW that a a WAY past his prime Wilt could battle a statistically PRIME Kareem to a draw. And we KNOW that a WAY past his prime Wilt was UNIVERSALLY hailed as outplaying a Kareem, in his GREATEST statistical season, in the '72 WCF's.

What we never saw, however, was a PRIME Chamberlain, who could dump 40-50- ppg games on Reed, Russell, and Thurmond, in games in the 65-66 season...go up against a PRIME Kareem.

Based on what we do KNOW, though, I don't think there is any doubt that a PRIME Chamberlain would have more than held his own against a PRIME Kareem.
I view this much as I do the series when Kareem lost to Walton. People will look at the stats and say Kareem outplayed Walton but to anyone who watched the games it was clearly Walton who was the better player.

[Lebron23]

hmm interesting observation .. makes you step back and think for a second


That's why basketball is a team sports. You need a good coach and a reliable supporting casts in order for your team to win.

[Pointguard]

I view this much as I do the series when Kareem lost to Walton. People will look at the stats and say Kareem outplayed Walton but to anyone who watched the games it was clearly Walton who was the better player.
I don't get it? He cited four sources, two of which would have a slant in the opposite direction.