Kobe has a strong case over Bird in the all-time list [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

iDefend5

01-10-2012, 02:46 PM

Check this stuff out...

Prime vs prime in the playoffs, per 36:

Bird (82-88): 21.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.6 TOpg, 56.2% TS

League average over this time was 53.9% TS, so Bird was +2.3%.

Kobe (01-10): 24.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.7 TOpg, 54.8% TS

League average over this time was 53.1% TS, so Kobe was +1.7%.

From 82-88, in the playoffs, the Celtics averaged 109.8 ppg, which would be 82.35 pp36, so Bird was scoring 25.9% of the team's points.

From 01-10, in the playoffs, the Lakers averaged 99.2 ppg, which would be 74.4 pp36, so Kobe was scoring 32.8% of the team's points.

Analysis made by another poster, same poster who found these statistics.

What does all this mean in terms of who I'd take in the playoffs? I honestly don't know. Bird was more efficient, but barely, and Kobe was taking on more of a scoring load than Bird had to. However, this was probably mainly due to the fact that Bird was in a multipolar offense, and not because Bird couldn't take on more of a scoring load. But if Bird had to score more, then his efficiency probably takes a hit. Neither guy turns it over that much, which is more impressive for Kobe, because he played way more on-ball than Bird did. However, the fact that Bird was still getting a greater volume of assists despite playing off-ball is also very impressive. But then again, Kobe played in the triangle, which deflates assists totals. It's also clear that Bird had better court vision and was a more willing passer. But then again (again), like someone else mentioned, Kobe faced tougher defenses in the playoffs.

Defensively, Kobe is clearly a better man to man defender, but Bird was a very good team defender, and imo, whatever disadvantage he ends up having on defense is made up by his superior rebounding. Bird was anywhere from 11.9-16.7 TRB% from 82-88, Kobe was only at 6.2-9.1 TRB% from 01-10. Clear edge to Bird.

It's a tossup personally. Kobe is the better scorer, and he takes better care of the basketball, considering his role. Due to the rebounding of Bird and due to Kobe's man defense, I'm going to call defense a draw. Bird is the superior passer.

They're pretty much equal, but I'll lean Kobe, because of the durability (9 playoff runs vs 7 for Bird), and the fact that he put up comparable production against tougher defenses.

The fact that Kobe was probably the better post-season performer of the two during their prime seasons should be eye-popping to you. Then factor in how Kobe is the one with longevity while Bird is the one that doesn't makes you realize that Kobe has a strong case.

Mr. Jabbar

01-10-2012, 02:54 PM

Bird was white, kobe wins the matchup, case dismissed.

Miserio

01-10-2012, 02:55 PM

***** please.

Jasi

01-10-2012, 03:03 PM

lol at ISHiots trying to decide who is better than who looking at stats.

AlexanderRight

01-10-2012, 03:05 PM

Stats. :facepalm

Bigsmoke

01-10-2012, 03:05 PM

I'll have Kobe over Bird if he continues to play this well for 1 more year or 2.

Bird in his peak was better than Kobe in his but I might rank Kobe higher because of longevity

Haymaker

01-10-2012, 03:05 PM

Bird > Kobe

/end thread

blablabla

01-10-2012, 03:07 PM

bird is a top5 player

quick96

01-10-2012, 03:13 PM

bird is a top5 player

KB24 has a case for top 3 G.O.A.T. son.

N0Skillz

01-10-2012, 03:14 PM

Kareem > MJ

kidachi

01-10-2012, 03:15 PM

Bird was white, kobe wins the matchup, case dismissed.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab30/16bitninja/steve-austin.gif

blablabla

01-10-2012, 03:15 PM

KB24 has a case for top 3 G.O.A.T. son.
i never said he doesn't

oolalaa

01-10-2012, 03:19 PM

1. It's pretty stupid to compare players by exclusively using STATS.

2. Why have you said that Birds peak started in '82 rather than '81? You know that he led Boston to a championship in '81, right?

cbombdotcom

01-10-2012, 03:26 PM

Yea, I say if Kobe maintains his level for play for another year or so, his case is very strong. Of course there are die hard and old school fans that would never allow Kobe to pass Bird on mystique alone, but hey...

And that pic of "Bert" Flacco has me :roll:

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 03:26 PM

I rank Bird anywhere near the 6-8 range and Kobe around 9-10 (I have him at #10). So while it's close, they're ranked in different tiers. I feel what Larry didn't give you on the defensive end, he made up for it by crashing the boards and getting his teammates involved (things that Kobe doesn't do nearly as well). He also played better in BIG moments and didn't need to shoot the ball to be clutch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk1O0DqxQk

Kobe is great, but Larry Legend was a better all-around player.

305Baller

01-10-2012, 03:26 PM

Bird all day.

Faptastrophe

01-10-2012, 03:30 PM

http://i.imgur.com/t9kzu.gif

Pushxx

01-10-2012, 03:32 PM

Bird played when competition was at its highest ever in the NBA...

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 03:36 PM

3 straight MVP's says otherwise. So does Bird's 7 top 2 MVP finishes in 8 straight years (and 8 top 3 finishes in 9 years) before he obliterated his back.

IGOTGAME

01-10-2012, 03:38 PM

3 straight MVP's says otherwise...

does it? I have them on the same tier.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 03:39 PM

3 straight MVP's says otherwise...
MVPs should never be determined who is greater or better. If this were the case, why isn't Moses Malone compared to Bird more often? They both have 3 MVPs. Why isn't Nash considered better or greater than Kobe or Shaq, after all Nash has 2 times more MVPs than those two do. Why isn't Rose considered better or greater than Wade? Rose is the one with the MVP while Wade does not have one. Using who has more MVPs to determine who is greater is a weak argument.

Maneva

01-10-2012, 03:41 PM

It's definitely a debate, and anyone acting all shocked by this is just in denial. Personally I'd still go with Bird, but only slightly, and Kobe's still got some left in the tank so that could change.

I agree that you can't use such stats to make this argument, but I've got to point out how funny it is that in every Kobe hate thread or Kobe comparison thread so many similar stats are thrown around to show how Kobe's not as good (and people take the stats seriously), but then when they actually favor Kobe all of a sudden there are a ton of posts on how unreliable stats are. Not that anyone in this thread is being hypocritical, but that's pretty odd.

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 03:42 PM

MVPs should never be determined who is greater or better. If this were the case, why isn't Moses Malone compared to Bird more often? They both have 3 MVPs. Why isn't Nash considered better or greater than Kobe or Shaq, after all Nash has 2 times more MVPs than those two do. Why isn't Rose considered better or greater than Wade? Rose is the one with the MVP while Wade does not have one. Using who has more MVPs to determine who is greater is a weak argument.

Sorry, but winning 3 straight MVP's and finishing top 2 in MVP voting 7 times in 8 years and top 3 in voting 8 times in 9 years clearly shows that he is better than Kobe and deserves to be ranked above him all-time. As does the fact that he was getting lots of GOAT praise in the mid-80's; Kobe has never been close to that level, really.

rhythmic

01-10-2012, 03:42 PM

3 straight MVP's says otherwise. So does Bird's 7 top 2 MVP finishes in 8 straight years (and 8 top 3 finishes in 9 years) before he obliterated his back.

I guess Steve Nash is better then Kobe too.
If Kobe has another 27/5/5 season, I am taking him over Bird.
People keep forgetting to adjust pace when comparing stats between two players who played in completely different times.

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 03:46 PM

AlexanderRight

01-10-2012, 03:46 PM

KB24 has a case for top 3 G.O.A.T. son.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8954/d8fc22ba.gif

rhythmic

01-10-2012, 03:47 PM

rhythmic

01-10-2012, 03:48 PM

MVP voting finishes from age 23-31 (when Bird destroyed his back and was never the same player again):

Bird:

4
2
2
2
1
1
1
3
2

Kobe:

5
3
5
N/A (didn't even rank in the top 15)
4
3
1
2
3

You might think that's close based on numbers, but really it isn't - there is a large difference between finishing top 2 versus top 3-5. Large.

So, you're not going to mention their roles, right?
I'd love to see Bird getting all those MVP votes playing along-side Shaq for half of his career, wasting his athletic prime being a 2nd option.

The N/A is because of his injuries; nice way to try and twist shit around like Kobe was just terrible that year.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 03:50 PM

Sorry, but winning 3 straight MVP's and finishing top 2 in MVP voting 7 times in 8 years and top 3 in voting 8 times in 9 years clearly shows that he is better than Kobe and deserves to be ranked above him all-time. As does the fact that he was getting lots of GOAT praise in the mid-80's; Kobe has never been close to that level, really.
No it doesn't. I already told you why using MVPs to determine rankings is pointless and holds no weight. The MVP is an award that is given by the opinion of other people. You are pretty much basing your opinion on Bird being better based on other peoples' opinion.

tpols

01-10-2012, 03:50 PM

Sorry, but winning 3 straight MVP's and finishing top 2 in MVP voting 7 times in 8 years and top 3 in voting 8 times in 9 years clearly shows that he is better than Kobe and deserves to be ranked above him all-time. As does the fact that he was getting lots of GOAT praise in the mid-80's; Kobe has never been close to that level, really.
This is a stupid argument. You can say Shaq cant be ranked over bird than using this same logic. And you didn't answer anything in the post you replied to. MVPs aren't the end all be all.

And LOL at GOAT praise when Kobe has drawn extremely high praise[near GOAT at times] but in his case you just dismiss it.

kenny817

01-10-2012, 03:51 PM

LOL Kobe retards

Bird > Kobe

Bird > Kobe

Bird > Kobe

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 03:52 PM

[QUOTE=rhythmic

IGOTGAME

01-10-2012, 03:53 PM

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 03:56 PM

This is a stupid argument. You can say Shaq cant be ranked over bird than using this same logic. And you didn't answer anything in the post you replied to. MVPs aren't the end all be all.

No, you really can't. Shaq's MVP finishes from age 23-31:

9
9
4
6
1
3
3
5
6

Bird:

4
2
2
2
1
1
1
3
2

And yes, MVP's are the first or second-most important criteria when ranking all-time level players. Sucks for Kobe fans (and for Shaq fans, too), but that is the fact of the matter. MVP's are a HUGE part of what makes one player's career GREATER than another's.

rhythmic

01-10-2012, 03:58 PM

Kobe WAS just terrible that year - he was on pace to set an NBA record for TO/gm and led the league in getting the ball stiolen from him and getting his shot blocked.

And Shaq was only around for the first 3 seasons listed for Kobe ('02-'04) since I looked at age 23-31). Feel free to take one year off the front for Kobe and add in his 2011 MVP finish of 4th at age 32 instead. But that really doesn't help his case.

Is this guy really this stupid people?
You took 8 years, without even looking at the context.

1) Two of those years were still when Shaquille was on the team.
2) One of those seasons he had nagging injuries and just had a terrible season; missed most games of his entire career as a starter I believe.
3) Played with a lineup consisting of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm etc.
4) LA acquired Pau Gasol; Kobe led them to three straight final appearances, back to back title wins & an MVP. Finished in the top 3 all three years while being 30+ years of age.

Bird finished #1, #2 & #3 during that same age but he never had a piss poor team for 3 years or had he ever had to defer to a guy who was more dominant then he was. And yes, Bird would be second option on a team with Shaquille.

We're talking about MVP right? The tradition behind the award is you have to win a bunch of games while playing great ball. That automatically puts Kobe at a disadvantage because out of those eight seasons you've named Kobe either had to defer to Shaquille or had a terrible team around him for over half of those years. :rolleyes:

Pushxx

01-10-2012, 03:59 PM

If you asked any reputable NBA great or experienced, unbiased NBA guru, not one person would say Kobe > Bird on the all time list.

Not one. Kobe is a lock for at least top 15 all time when all is said and done, but he's never gonna breath the Bird/Magic tier.

Mr. Jabbar

01-10-2012, 04:01 PM

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 04:04 PM

1) Two of those years were still when Shaquille was on the team.

Hey idiot, I was trying to do an apples to apples comparison, because if I just looked at Kobe's years post-Shaq and Bird's healthy years, Kobe fans would say "b...b...but Kobe was older than Bird in 2 of those seasons!" Can't please everyone. Feel free to extrapolate or speculate as to what Kobe's MVP ranking would be in 2002 and 2003 if he were on his own team (hint: not much better than what it was since Shaq and Duncan occupied the top 2 spots; he may move up a spot or so those two seasons).

2) One of those seasons he had nagging injuries and just had a terrible season; missed most games of his entire career as a starter I believe.

Bird had a crippled back for like the last 3 seasons I listed for him - way worse than whatever Kobe has dealt with. Again, stop the excuses.

3) Played with a lineup consisting of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm etc.

Several GOAT level players (company Kobe is not in) have managed to finish top 3 in MVP voting on bad teams - just as bad as Kobe's '05-'07 cast.

4) LA acquired Pau Gasol; Kobe led them to three straight final appearances, back to back title wins & an MVP. Finished in the top 3 all season while being 30+ years of age.

Kobe was 29 in 2008 when he won his MVP and made one of those Finals appearances.

We're talking about MVP right? The tradition behind the award is you have to win a bunch of games while playing great ball. That automatically puts Kobe at a disadvantage because out of those eight seasons you've named Kobe either had to defer to Shaquille or had a terrible team around him for over half of those years. :rolleyes:

Cry me a river. Unfortunately, MVP's are very important when ranking players all time. Nothing you can do, no excuse you make, can change that fact. If you want to make this about who the BETTER player was, then do that. But you're not going to find many people over age 25 who believe that prime Kobe ('06-'09) was a more effective and better player than prime Bird ('84-'87).

Pushxx

01-10-2012, 04:06 PM

top 15 lol, more like locked top 7-8 Right now...

also, magic is above bird.

He's top 10 right now, but people could argue 10-15 (not me).

Kobe imo is the third best guard ever. I never said Magic wasn't above Bird. Just said Bird and Magic are in a tier above Kobe. That tier is just below Michael Jordan.

LA_Showtime

01-10-2012, 04:10 PM

Kobe MIGHT finish above Bird all-time because of his longevity and rings but he has never been as good as Larry ****ing Bird.

creepingdeath

01-10-2012, 04:11 PM

http://i.minus.com/ibovNT1owp74ik.gif

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:12 PM

Kobe MIGHT finish above Bird all-time because of his longevity and rings but he has never been as good as Larry ****ing Bird.

I have Kobe above Bird in my all time list already and I don't really have to get in on why...because it's done so many times.

If Bird wasn't born decades earlier than Kobe, this wouldn't even be a debate.

chazzy

01-10-2012, 04:13 PM

No, you really can't.
:oldlol: Uh, yes you can. Shaq definitely has a strong case over Bird.

Yao Ming's Foot

01-10-2012, 04:14 PM

Talk to me when Kobe gets a ring with only 3-5 HOFers per title team.

:bowdown:

LA_Showtime

01-10-2012, 04:14 PM

I have Kobe above Bird in my all time list already and I don't really have to get in on why...because it's done so many times.

If Bird wasn't born decades earlier than Kobe, this wouldn't even be a debate.

I'd say at this point it's a toss up. I would choose Bird simply because he was more enjoyable to watch, while Kobe has a tendency to piss me off because he goes for individual accolades/puts himself above the team.

305Baller

01-10-2012, 04:15 PM

rhythmic

01-10-2012, 04:15 PM

The fact that Nash won 2 MVP's in comparison to 1 for Shaquille just shows how baseless this argument is. We're comparing other people's opinion of two players without even acknowledging a) the state of the league and b) their respective teammates.

You honestly think Nash would have a chance at an MVP from 08'-11'?
He won both of those awards at a time where all the other great players had crap for teammates, which is exactly why OldSchool's argument is flawed.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:16 PM

Bird also said he would give up his MVP's if Kobe didn't get it.

Bird has also said MVP awards are B.S.

guy

01-10-2012, 04:17 PM

MVPs should never be determined who is greater or better. If this were the case, why isn't Moses Malone compared to Bird more often? They both have 3 MVPs. Why isn't Nash considered better or greater than Kobe or Shaq, after all Nash has 2 times more MVPs than those two do. Why isn't Rose considered better or greater than Wade? Rose is the one with the MVP while Wade does not have one. Using who has more MVPs to determine who is greater is a weak argument.

Pretty sure cause Moses only won 1 title while Bird won 3, Nash has never came close to a title while Shaq and Kobe have 4 and 5, and Rose has barely been around and hasn't won a title while Wade has been around for over twice as long and won a title.

I swear, only for Kobe Bryant do the highest honors like MVPs not matter. But apparently honors like All-Defensive teams that he's pretty much gotten solely based on reputation and him matching players like Jordan does matter.

They aren't the end all be all to an argument, but wow, they don't matter at all?

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:21 PM

Pretty sure cause Moses only won 1 title while Bird won 3, Nash has never came close to a title while Shaq and Kobe have 4 and 5, and Rose has barely been around and hasn't won a title while Wade has been around for over twice as long and won a title.

I swear, only for Kobe Bryant do the highest honors like MVPs not matter. But apparently honors like All-Defensive teams that he's pretty much gotten solely based on reputation and him matching players like Jordan does matter.

They aren't the end all be all to an argument, but wow, they don't matter at all?

based on reputation?

That's good with me because you had to do something in your career to warrant that reputation and I guess Kobe did that.

Same thing can be said about MJ when clearly those years Starks should have been 1st team.

Coffee Black

01-10-2012, 04:23 PM

Right now I still say Bird is better than Kobe. But with Kobe's longevity he can move ahead of Bird even without winning another championship. Even though Kobe is ahead of Bird with 2 rings and Bird had more hall of famers and talent on his team, I still give the edge to Bird because of the tough competition of the era. But by Kobe playing this well for a bit longer, he will be leading the team in competition and championship contention much more than Bird was able to do. Is there anything more to ask for a athlete, especially in the NBA, than competing and leading your team as contenders.

BlackJoker23

01-10-2012, 04:24 PM

Hey idiot, I was trying to do an apples to apples comparison, because if I just looked at Kobe's years post-Shaq and Bird's healthy years, Kobe fans would say "b...b...but Kobe was older than Bird in 2 of those seasons!" Can't please everyone. Feel free to extrapolate or speculate as to what Kobe's MVP ranking would be in 2002 and 2003 if he were on his own team (hint: not much better than what it was since Shaq and Duncan occupied the top 2 spots; he may move up a spot or so those two seasons).

Bird had a crippled back for like the last 3 seasons I listed for him - way worse than whatever Kobe has dealt with. Again, stop the excuses.

Several GOAT level players (company Kobe is not in) have managed to finish top 3 in MVP voting on bad teams - just as bad as Kobe's '05-'07 cast.

Kobe was 29 in 2008 when he won his MVP and made one of those Finals appearances.

Cry me a river. Unfortunately, MVP's are very important when ranking players all time. Nothing you can do, no excuse you make, can change that fact. If you want to make this about who the BETTER player was, then do that. But you're not going to find many people over age 25 who believe that prime Kobe ('06-'09) was a more effective and better player than prime Bird ('84-'87).
lol at the fakkit delusional jordan jocker. fukk outta here with your trash and stick to analyzing jordan on youtube with your jordanlover23 account

bean been better than bird since 01 and counting

DMV2

01-10-2012, 04:26 PM

Kobe's prime is 2006-present.

kidachi

01-10-2012, 04:27 PM

Same thing can be said about MJ when clearly those years Starks should have been 1st team.

First of all, I thought you were too young? don't say the you watched youtube clips crap

Second, Not that Starks is a bad defensive player.. but all-D 1ST TEAM? He can't even stay a full game when he tried to guard Reggie Miller..

guy

01-10-2012, 04:28 PM

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 04:28 PM

:oldlol: Uh, yes you can. Shaq definitely has a strong case over Bird.

He does, but not for the reasons we were discussing. Your reading comprehension is at epic fail levels. Here's the exchange:

Sorry, but winning 3 straight MVP's and finishing top 2 in MVP voting 7 times in 8 years and top 3 in voting 8 times in 9 years clearly shows that he is better than Kobe and deserves to be ranked above him all-time.

This is a stupid argument. You can say Shaq cant be ranked over bird than using this same logic.

No, you really can't. Shaq's MVP finishes from age 23-31:

9
9
4
6
1
3
3
5
6

Bird:

4
2
2
2
1
1
1
3
2

Uh, yes you can. Shaq definitely has a strong case over Bird.

All emphasis mine. The bolded portions are all related and are the crux of the discussion; they are in response to my first post quoted above. Hence, we were talking about MVP voting specifically. Tpols said that Shaq can be ranked above Bird based on "the same logic" (i.e., MVP finishes); I showed that this is not true, since Bird DESTROYS Shaq in terms of MVP voting. You then said "yes, you can. Shaq definitely has a strong case over Bird." You are wrong regarding the first part of your statement, since it is in reference to a particular ASPECT of the discussion (i.e., MVP voting finishes).

The second part of your statement I somewhat agree with - Shaq definitely has a case to be ranked above Bird all-time (not sure I would call it a "strong" case, though), but it has NOTHING to do with MVP voting and EVERYTHING to do with his utter statistical dominance and impact.

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 04:29 PM

based on reputation?

That's good with me because you had to do something in your career to warrant that reputation and I guess Kobe did that.

Same thing can be said about MJ when clearly those years Starks should have been 1st team.

WTF are you even talking about? Starks? :oldlol: When has Starks EVER been even REMOTELY close to Jordan in terms of defensive impact? Grab a clue, Mr. "I was too young to watch Jordan."

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:33 PM

Kobe's peak years are better than Bird's peak years.

As a matter of fact he's still in his peak because there isn't much drop off in his numbers.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:34 PM

WTF are you even talking about? Starks? :oldlol: When has Starks EVER been even REMOTELY close to Jordan in terms of defensive impact? Grab a clue, Mr. "I was too young to watch Jordan."

I watched many videos of MJ and he reminds me a lot of Kobe.

MJ's done playing and we watch Kobe now, therefore, MJ reminded me of Kobe.

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 04:35 PM

Kobe's peak years are better than Bird's peak years.

As a matter of fact he's still in his peak because there isn't much drop off in his numbers.

Kobe has never been even 95% as impactful as '84-'87 Bird.

KevinNYC

01-10-2012, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I feel what Larry didn't give you on the defensive end, he made up for it by crashing the boards and getting his teammates involved (things that Kobe doesn't do nearly as well). /QUOTE]

It's an absolute myth that Larry Bird didn't have an impact on the defensive end. This is discussed in detail in this thread
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230228

People who say that didn't see Bird play or only saw him after he ruptured both Achilles tendons. What Bird didn't have was quick feet. His lateral movement made him a liability on quick players in the open floor. Which is a situation you face maybe 5% of the time on defense. The Celtics solution was not to have Bird guard the other team's quickest forward. This allowed Bird to use the defensive gifts he did have, strength, great balance, very quick hands, high BBIQ, excellent sense of anticipating a play, great team defense, best in the league off-the-ball defense. The Celtics played a team defense and Bird was great in that scheme. He played alongside two shot-blockers and would funnel his man right into the shot-blockers, but he also made defensive plays that Parish, McHale or Maxwell couldn't do. Just as they had defensive skills he didn't have. Anyone who watched the pre-injury Bird play know that Bird was not a liability on defense, not an average defender, but an impact player on defense, he was all over the court on defense making all sorts of play. If you look at that thread link above I looked at a couple random playoff games that were available on youtube and Bird made play after play which I linked to. He was stealing and blocking the ball from Dr J, nearly blocking a Kareem skyhook then grabbing the rebound, breaking up a Laker fast break, blocking the smaller, quicker Bryon Scott's shot on switch.

When the Knicks lost game 2 of the 1984 ECSF to Boston 116 to 102. Bird went hit 16 of 22 and scored 37 points, but after the game Knicks coach Hubie Brown singled out his defense. (Bird had 4 steals in the game.)

Quote:
"The entire Boston team played great defense, but the one man the purists noticed was Bird. He's the real key to their defense. Bird reminded us tonight of a middle line-backer the way he roamed around out there. His ability to clog the lane, double team and strip the ball were the keys to their defense."

BlackWhiteGreen

01-10-2012, 04:36 PM

Larry Legend gets disrespected here. :no:

KevinNYC

01-10-2012, 04:37 PM

Ugh, the Youtube clips that linked to in that old Larry Bird thread are gone because of copyright violations.

AirTupac

01-10-2012, 04:37 PM

Larry Legend gets disrespected here. :no:

No bias amirite

madmax

01-10-2012, 04:37 PM

Ain't it funny how stats only matter when they favour Kobrick but not the other way arround:lol :roll: Oh the realms of hypocrisy:bowdown:

kidachi

01-10-2012, 04:37 PM

I watched many videos of MJ and he reminds me a lot of Kobe.

MJ's done playing and we watch Kobe now, therefore, MJ reminded me of Kobe.

I understand where you're coming from. But STFU and stop commenting on things you don't know. Starks>Jordan on D? please..

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:37 PM

Kobe has never been even 95% as impactful as '84-'87 Bird.

lol....you are talking about an era of inflated stats.

As great as Bird was, it's downright laughable to suggest that he's better than Kobe.

When it's all said and done Kobe will be better than Bird but the funny thing is, we don't have to wait.

There are arguments and facts that gives Kobe an argument on why he's better. It's only an argument because there are a lot of people that are afraid to put Kobe above Bird.

kidachi

01-10-2012, 04:41 PM

lol....you are talking about an era of inflated stats.

As great as Bird was, it's downright laughable to suggest that he's better than Kobe.

When it's all said and done Kobe will be better than Bird but the funny thing is, we don't have to wait.

There are arguments and facts that gives Kobe an argument on why he's better. It's only an argument because there are a lot of people that are afraid to put Kobe above Bird.

It all ends in.. have you watched that era?

and no one is "afraid".. it's just a fact.. just wait.. maybe Kobe will get past Bird when it's over.. as for now.. just keep watching and waiting..

rhythmic

01-10-2012, 04:43 PM

Kobe has never been even 95% as impactful as '84-'87 Bird.

This would be an accurate statement if myself or anyone else actually valued your opinion. It's clearly biased and erroneous. From reading some of your posts on this forum, I can clearly see I am dealing with a biased individual.

Welcome to ignore land.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:44 PM

It all ends in.. have you watched that era?

you can even look at the stats and see how Kobe's list is long...16 years and his production is the same, it's as high as even his best years.

It's almost like the man is still in his peak.

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 04:47 PM

It all ends in.. have you watched that era?

and no one is "afraid".. it's just a fact.. just wait.. maybe Kobe will get past Bird when it's over.. as for now.. just keep watching and waiting..

I watched Bird's whole career.....Kobe is a better player.

BlackWhiteGreen

01-10-2012, 04:49 PM

No bias amirite

:oldlol: everyone has bias. I'm just not using mine to disrespect a top 10 player of all time.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 04:50 PM

It's not all about Kobe vs Bird....I think there are a lot of players who are actually than Bird.

It's because Kobe is passing so many players that he's approaching Bird. Something people don't want to hear.

AirTupac

01-10-2012, 04:51 PM

:oldlol: everyone has bias. I'm just not using mine to disrespect a top 10 player of all time.

Both are top 10 players of all time imo, but I guess when you say "Kobe is obviously better than Bird" it could be insulting.

I was just making a joke cause your obviously a Celtics fan. :oldlol:

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 04:52 PM

a myth.

I never said he couldn't play defense. I actually thought he was an average (and some years above average) defender.

Kobe is/was better on that end though.

eliteballer

01-10-2012, 04:54 PM

As if this is some sort of surprising revelation. Everyone involved with the actual NBA considers Kobe on that tier

kidachi

01-10-2012, 04:56 PM

I watched Bird's whole career.....Kobe is a better player.

Well good. It's better to talk to you..

I think it's debatable.. for now.. I'd still go with Bird.. maybe when Kobe's career is over it'll be easier to argue this and pick one.. it's just hard to put one above a legend while that player is still playing.. MJ and Jerry Rice are the only athletes wherein you could say that "yes, he's better than this legend or he's the GOAT" while they're still playing.. Kobe's doesn't have THAT yet..

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:02 PM

Well good. It's better to talk to you..

I think it's debatable.. for now.. I'd still go with Bird.. maybe when Kobe's career is over it'll be easier to argue this and pick one.. it's just hard to put one above a legend while that player is still playing.. MJ and Jerry Rice are the only athletes wherein you could say that "yes, he's better than this legend or he's the GOAT" while they're still playing.. Kobe's doesn't have THAT yet..

No I can very safely say after watching both players career's that Kobe is a better player then Bird...again after watching over 9+ years of each players career...

Just like after watching Rice catch catch 3TD's vs the Rams his 5th season he was and is a much better player then Steve largent.

Kobe is over Bird..IMo it's not even that close.

KevinNYC

01-10-2012, 05:04 PM

I never said he couldn't play defense. I actually thought he was an average (and some years above average) defender.

Kobe is/was better on that end though.

He was 2nd team all defensive three years in a row, that is much more than above average. He was also the best defensive rebounder year after year on that team, better than Parish and McHale.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 05:07 PM

He was 2nd team all defensive three years in a row, that is much more than above average. He was also the best defensive rebounder year after year on that team, better than Parish and McHale.

And those were the years he was above average (or "elite", however you want to word it).

What's your point exactly? He was a good defender, just not better than Kobe.

kidachi

01-10-2012, 05:10 PM

No I can very safely say after watching both players career's that Kobe is a better player then Bird...again after watching over 9+ years of each players career...

Just like after watching Rice catch catch 3TD's vs the Rams his 5th season he was and is a much better player then Steve largent.

Kobe is over Bird..IMo it's not even that close.

Ok cool. I think Bird's still above Kobe.. maybe we'll just agree to disagree.. I'll just say Kobe was more athletic and more fun to watch..

DMAVS41

01-10-2012, 05:13 PM

This is a great debate for longevity vs prime. How much does longevity matter in ranking players?

Bird was a better player if you judge him on how good he was compared to his peers, but Kobe has and will have a huge edge in longevity.

Bird played like 10 quality seasons. Kobe might finish with 15 quality seasons. How much does that matter? I know each person will answer it differently, but it has to matter a little.

I personally rank Bird over Kobe, but it gets closer and closer each year Kobe continues to play at a high level.

In terms of which player I would take for their 10 best seasons? Bird pretty easily....

EnoughSaid

01-10-2012, 05:14 PM

WTF? Bird is arguably a top 5 player while Kobe is borderline #10. :wtf:

kidachi

01-10-2012, 05:16 PM

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:17 PM

DMAVS41

01-10-2012, 05:19 PM

and Kobe has been better then his peers for over 10 years...

move alongs Bro's

No he hasn't. Kobe didn't separate himself from his peers the way Bird did. Sorry. Kobe was a worse player than both Shaq and Duncan from his rookie year until his 9th year at least.

Then you have guys like KG, Lebron, Wade...that were right there with him as well.

Its really not hard. MVP is hardly the end all be all, but Kobe only has 1 and is way way way behind Bird in MVP awards shares. And that illustrates the different levels they reached in their primes vs their peers respectively.

eliteballer

01-10-2012, 05:20 PM

No he hasn't. Kobe didn't separate himself from his peers the way Bird did. Sorry. Kobe was a worse player than both Shaq and Duncan from his rookie year until his 9th year at least.

Then you have guys like KG, Lebron, Wade...that were right there with him as well.

Its really not hard. MVP is hardly the end all be all, but Kobe only has 1 and is way way way behind Bird in MVP awards shares. And that illustrates the different levels they reached in their primes vs their peers respectively.

LOL..........thats why Kobes been obliterating Duncans teams since 01, and saying guys like Wade and KG are close to Kobe is like saying Barkley is close to Bird

juju151111

01-10-2012, 05:21 PM

I watched many videos of MJ and he reminds me a lot of Kobe.

MJ's done playing and we watch Kobe now, therefore, MJ reminded me of Kobe.
Reminds you of Kobe? MJ was first and Kobe couldn't attack the Rim like Mj or had the athlethic ability.

01-10-2012, 05:21 PM

Both are close in so many ways. Bird's legacy is attached to his rivalry against Magic so he gets a public opinion bump there. Numbers wise they are very close but Kobe is the all around better player, more athletic hands down and longevity wise Kobe beats Bird. Longevity plays a big part in all time lists and can't be ignored. I always ask myself who I'd want to start a franchise with knowing how their health would effect the long term and in this case it would be Kobe. It's like when I think of Jordan vs Kareem. Jordan may be the better player but looking at Kareems career and how he would effect a franchise over a 20 year span. I'm taking Kareem as an owner of a team

DMAVS41

01-10-2012, 05:22 PM

LOL..........thats why Kobes been obliterating Duncans teams since 01

Yep. That just destroys the notion that Duncan was better from around 98 to 05.

How is it not an accepted fact that Duncan and Shaq were better overall than Kobe from 98 through 05? How much more evidence do we need?

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:23 PM

No he hasn't. Kobe didn't separate himself from his peers the way Bird did. Sorry. Kobe was a worse player than both Shaq and Duncan from his rookie year until his 9th year at least.

Then you have guys like KG, Lebron, Wade...that were right there with him as well.

Its really not hard. MVP is hardly the end all be all, but Kobe only has 1 and is way way way behind Bird in MVP awards shares.

Yes he has....by far Kobe has seperated himself from his peers as the greatest player of his generation...

majority the Players said it....

majority of the fans said it....

majority of the GM's said it..

once again...Kobe destroys anyone as the greatest player of his generation..it's not even close....

and still in his 16th season he is arguably the best player in the NBA...he has seperated himself by far..

the only people who disagree are you and your 3 bro's:rolleyes:

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:24 PM

LOL..........thats why Kobes been obliterating Duncans teams since 01, and saying guys like Wade and KG are close to Kobe is like saying Barkley is close to Bird

33ppg 7reb 7ast vs the spurs in the 01' WCFinals...:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

(waits for Gino and his 1 laptop)

DMAVS41

01-10-2012, 05:25 PM

Yes he has....by far Kobe has seperated himself from his peers as the greatest player of his generation...

majority the Players said it....

majority of the fans said it....

majority of the GM's said it..

once again...Kobe destroys anyone as the greatest player of his generation..it's not even close....

and still in his 16th season he is arguably the best player in the NBA...he has seperated himself by far..

the only people who disagree are you and your 3 bro's:rolleyes:

LOL...the fact that any true basketball historian would ever put kobe ahead of shaq/duncan from 98 to 05 is a ****ing joke....a ****ing joke....

and then since 06...its absolutely debatable between wade and kobe....and lebron has just been better.

kobe has been the best player in the league at most 3 times in his career and as few as 0 or 1 times.....LOL

DMAVS41

01-10-2012, 05:26 PM

33ppg 7reb 7ast vs the spurs in the 01' WCFinals...:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

(waits for Gino and his 1 laptop)

Are you trying to have a legit conversation or not?

Please answer:

Rank the following 3 players from 98 to 05....

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Please answer.

01-10-2012, 05:32 PM

Are you trying to have a legit conversation or not?

Please answer:

Rank the following 3 players from 98 to 05....

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Please answer.Why are you using a 7 year window in an all time thread for players that have had careers spanning double your window? That seems a bit contrived

edit: nvrmnd. it's Gino. I didn't realize this was his account

DMAVS41

01-10-2012, 05:35 PM

[QUOTE=B

Whoah10115

01-10-2012, 05:38 PM

Larry Bird.

chazzy

01-10-2012, 05:38 PM

Are you trying to have a legit conversation or not?

Please answer:

Rank the following 3 players from 98 to 05....

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Please answer.
I think his argument is that over the past 16 years, there hasn't been a player to remain at a high level the way Kobe has. Duncan and Shaq for the first half of his career, Wade/Lebron for the 2nd half, but no one for the entire span. Kobe was winning titles while having great playoff runs before Wade and Lebron were in the league, and had more great playoff runs after Shaq and Duncan fell out of their primes. Kobe had a slow start to his career though, so it wasn't 16 elite/prime seasons. That's what hurts him in these longevity talks.

gasolina

01-10-2012, 05:41 PM

Where is the Miami Heat championship cruisers when you need them? :wtf:

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:44 PM

Are you trying to have a legit conversation or not?

Please answer:

Rank the following 3 players from 98 to 05....

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Please answer.

98' = MJ
99 = Shaq
00' = Shaq
01' = Kobe
02' = Kobe
03' = Kobe
04' = KG
05' = Duncan
06' = Kobe
07' = Kobe
08' = Kobe
09' = Kobe
10' = Kobe

(yawns)...next

chazzy

01-10-2012, 05:44 PM

And to the larger point, no Kobe hasn't consistently separated himself from his peers on a year by year basis.

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:46 PM

And to the larger point, no Kobe hasn't consistently separated himself from his peers on a year by year basis.

either did Bird.....Doctor J , Magic and even MJ were right there and even better then Bird

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 05:49 PM

Yep. That just destroys the notion that Duncan was better from around 98 to 05.

How is it not an accepted fact that Duncan and Shaq were better overall than Kobe from 98 through 05? How much more evidence do we need?
So Duncan and Shaq in their primes were better than Kobe before he was in his? Wow, where did you think of that? :eek:

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:50 PM

So Duncan and Shaq in their primes were better than Kobe before he was in his? Wow, where did you think of that? :eek:

Duncan was never a better player then 01' Kobe..never ever ever...

IGOTGAME

01-10-2012, 05:52 PM

Let me clarify. Alpha said that Kobe has separated himself from his peers the same way Bird did. .

when exactly did Bird seperate himself from Magic? oh, right....he didn't.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 05:52 PM

when exactly did Bird seperate himself from Magic? oh, right....he didn't.
Actually in 1984 he was pretty much the clear cut best player in the league but I guess you can say Kobe was the clear cut best player in the league in 2008 so it evens out.

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 05:58 PM

Actually in 1984 he was pretty much the clear cut best player in the league but I guess you can say Kobe was the clear cut best player in the league in 2008 so it evens out.

ok ...but Bird never really seperated himself as the clear cut best player of his generation in the people's/media eyes like Kobe has...

in fact I would say most fans view Magic as the best player of the 80's with Bird bieng a close 2nd....

Kobe is widely viewed as the greatest player player of his generation...it aint even close.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 05:59 PM

Kobe has definitely surpass Bird and this isn't something new. He was young and there isn't any excuses but he had to be the best with the likes of Duncan and Shaq. Whom are the 2 of the greatest players of all time. Adding Kobe to the mix, you have 3 or the top 10 GOATs ever coming out of '00s.

Who did Bird have to separate himself against? Magic?

Kobe's peers are better than Bird's.

konex

01-10-2012, 06:09 PM

Who still had Bird over him? :confusedshrug:

oolalaa

01-10-2012, 06:09 PM

98' = MJ
99 = Duncan
00' = Shaq
01' = Shaq
02' = Shaq/Duncan
03' = Duncan
04' = KG
05' = Duncan
06' = Kobe (yes, but don't forget his pathetic game 7 against the suns)
07' = Kobe
08' = Kobe/Lebron/Paul
09' = Kobe/Lebron/Wade
10' = Kobe/Wade

(yawns)...next

Just thought i would do a little housekeeping for you...

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 06:11 PM

Just thought i would do a little housekeeping for you...
Kobe was more clear cut as the best player in the league in '08 than he was in '06 or '07. I would say those three years were the years of Kobe's peak.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 06:16 PM

Kobe was more clear cut as the best player in the league in '08 than he was in '06 or '07. I would say those three years were the years of Kobe's peak.

Not really. In 2007, Kobe was practically dubbed undisputed best player in the game.

I thought Chris Paul and Lebron James were just as good as Kobe in 2008, at worst on the same tier.

konex

01-10-2012, 06:16 PM

Kobe was more clear cut as the best player in the league in '08 than he was in '06 or '07. I would say those three years were the years of Kobe's peak.

I actually think 03 was his 2nd best year of individual dominance (after 06)

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 06:17 PM

This thread is hilarious. Kobe over Bird hahaha.

I'm also sick of this longevity crap... if Kobe threw himself at every loose ball like Bird did, he wouldn't have anywhere near the longevity. Bird should NOT be penalised for hustling as much as anyone else in the history of the NBA and then succumbing to injury because of it. He should be praised.

ILLsmak

01-10-2012, 06:17 PM

98' = MJ
99 = Shaq
00' = Shaq
01' = Kobe
02' = Kobe
03' = Kobe
04' = KG
05' = Duncan
06' = Kobe
07' = Kobe
08' = Kobe
09' = Kobe
10' = Kobe

(yawns)...next

How old are you? lol.

-Smak

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 06:18 PM

Just thought i would do a little housekeeping for you...

98' = MJ
99 = Duncan
00' = Shaq
01' = Kobe ....Phil jackson ,Shaq, sporting news , Slam , ESPN all said it
02' = Kobe
03' = Duncan
04' = KG
05' = Duncan
06' = Kobe (even with Kwame took the #1 seed to 7 games)
07' = Kobe
08' = Kobe.............................................. ......./Lebron
09' = Kobe.............................................. ../Lebron/Wade
10' = Kobe.............Wade

(yawns)...next

naw I'm good little homey.

konex

01-10-2012, 06:21 PM

This thread is hilarious. Kobe over Bird hahaha.

I don't get this.

Better offensive player - Kobe
Better defensive player - Kobe
More individual accomplishments - Kobe
More team accomplishments - Kobe

How exactly is Bird even in the same sentence as Kobe?

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 06:21 PM

Not really. In 2007, Kobe was practically dubbed undisputed best player in the game.

I thought Chris Paul and Lebron James were just as good as Kobe in 2008, at worst on the same tier.
Tim Duncan has an argument over Kobe in '07 and Dwyane Wade has an argument over Kobe in '06. Both of those players were the best player on championship teams. The only player that has an argument over Kobe in '08 was Chris Paul and it is a weak one. Lebron James was clearly not as Kobe was in '08.

He was pretty much the best in all three of those years though. I would say Wade and Duncan in '06 and '07 just had stronger arguments than Paul did in '08.

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 06:21 PM

How old are you? lol.

-Smak

go away little man...I got NES cartridges older then you...heck my gyromite robot knows more about hoop then most kids here.

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 06:22 PM

Tim Duncan has an argument over Kobe in '07 and Dwyane Wade has an argument over Kobe in '06. Both of those players were the best player on championship teams. The only player that has an argument over Kobe in '08 was Chris Paul and it is a weak one. Lebron James was clearly not as Kobe was in '08.

He was pretty much the best in all three of those years though. I would say Wade and Duncan in '06 and '07 just had stronger arguments than Paul did in '08.

of course every player has some arguement over another...cot damn!...this is dumb.

Kobe was and is looked at as the best player during those seasons...

ILLsmak

01-10-2012, 06:24 PM

go away little man...I got NES cartridges older then you...heck my gyromite robot knows more about hoop then most kids here.

So you're pretty young then? I didn't ask you how old your NES cartriges were.

-Smak

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 06:29 PM

of course every player has some arguement over another...cot damn!...this is dumb.

Kobe was and is looked at as the best player during those seasons...

For once, I agree with the Wolfman :cheers:

Around the summer of 2006, after the Heat won their championship and Wade was named Finals MVP, Alonzo Mourning said that Kobe was still the best player in the game. In 2006 and 2007 Kobe was widely regarded as the best player. 2008 was when Lebron made it interesting (and in 2009 surpassed Bryant, IMO at least).

ILLsmak

01-10-2012, 06:31 PM

For once, I agree with the Wolfman :cheers:

Around the summer of 2006, after the Heat won their championship and Wade was named Finals MVP, Alonzo Mourning said that Kobe was still the best player in the game. In 2006 and 2007 Kobe was widely regarded as the best player. 2008 was when Lebron made it interesting (and in 2009 surpassed Bryant, IMO at least).

Kobe's never done anything like Wade's Final series, though. Biggest stage. Whine all you want about refs, like Kobe has never had calls.

-Smak

konex

01-10-2012, 06:33 PM

Kobe's never done anything like Wade's Final series, though. Biggest stage. Whine all you want about refs, like Kobe has never had calls.

-Smak

Kobe's never averaged 20 fts a game in a 6 gm series! :facepalm

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 06:33 PM

Kobe's never done anything like Wade's Final series, though. Biggest stage. Whine all you want about refs, like Kobe has never had calls.

-Smak
Who do you think was the best player in '06, '07, and '08? It sounds like you don't think it is Kobe even though the general consensus agrees. Kobe was the best player in the league for at least one season in his career. I think it has been 3 seasons, maybe 4.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 06:34 PM

Kobe's never done anything like Wade's Final series, though. Biggest stage. Whine all you want about refs, like Kobe has never had calls.

-Smak

I'm not a Kobe fan, sucka. Just calling it like I see it.

Wade and Lebron >>>> Kobe in 2009, 2010, 2011 and when Wade is healthy in 2012.

Artillery

01-10-2012, 06:37 PM

LOL..........thats why Kobes been obliterating Duncans teams since 01, and saying guys like Wade and KG are close to Kobe is like saying Barkley is close to Bird

Duncan - 2 MVPS, 3 Finals MVPS>>>>>Kobe's 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPs

Unlike Kobe, he's won 4 championships without the help of another all-NBA player(Kobe had Shaq/Gasol/etc)

Unlike Kobe, he was the best player on ALL of his championship teams

Unlike Kobe, Duncan's Spurs have NEVER had a season below 50 wins. When Kobe actually had to carry a bad team the Lakers fell to the lottery/barely won 40 games.

AlphaWolf24

01-10-2012, 06:39 PM

So you're pretty young then? I didn't ask you how old your NES cartriges were.

-Smak

I'm young enough to carry vinyl lenoluem to school after watching MJ moonwalk in motown....I'm young enough to scuff my yellow + Black Converse Con's...I'm young enough to know Troop wasn't really made by the KKK.....I'm young enough to remember when Dominique was better then jordan..I'm young enough to see that teacher should have never pushed that button on the space shuttle...

but old enough to recognize game when it's in my face son....

next

N0Skillz

01-10-2012, 06:53 PM

I'm young enough to carry vinyl lenoluem to school after watching MJ moonwalk in motown....I'm young enough to scuff my yellow + Black Converse Con's...I'm young enough to know Troop wasn't really made by the KKK.....I'm young enough to remember when Dominique was better then jordan..I'm young enough to see that teacher should have never pushed that button on the space shuttle...

but old enough to recognize game when it's in my face son....

next

I guess you can call that a smackout

Pushxx

01-10-2012, 06:57 PM

Duncan - 2 MVPS, 3 Finals MVPS>>>>>Kobe's 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPs

Unlike Kobe, he's won 4 championships without the help of another all-NBA player(Kobe had Shaq/Gasol/etc)

Unlike Kobe, he was the best player on ALL of his championship teams

Unlike Kobe, Duncan's Spurs have NEVER had a season below 50 wins. When Kobe actually had to carry a bad team the Lakers fell to the lottery/barely won 40 games.

To me it's obvious Duncan is a bit higher than Kobe all-time but not many people give Duncan the respect he deserves. Duncan = GOAT PF.

JohnnyWall

01-10-2012, 07:01 PM

Duncan - 2 MVPS, 3 Finals MVPS>>>>>Kobe's 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPs

Kobe's 5 titles, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP, 9 All-Defensive First Teams, 2 NBA scoring titles >>> Duncan's 4 titles, 3 FMVPS, 2 MVPs, 8 All-Defensive First Teams, 0 NBA scoring titles.

Unlike Kobe, he's won 4 championships without the help of another all-NBA player(Kobe had Shaq/Gasol/etc)

http://www.straitpinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/celtics1.jpg

http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/12/1275/BBMT000Z.jpg

Unlike Kobe, he was the best player on ALL of his championship teams

http://www.straitpinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/celtics1.jpg

Unlike Kobe, Duncan's Spurs have NEVER had a season below 50 wins. When Kobe actually had to carry a bad team the Lakers fell to the lottery/barely won 40 games.

Post-season performance >>> Regular-season performance

Ronaldinho

01-10-2012, 07:02 PM

Duncan - 2 MVPS, 3 Finals MVPS>>>>>Kobe's 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPs

Unlike Kobe, he's won 4 championships without the help of another all-NBA player(Kobe had Shaq/Gasol/etc)

Unlike Kobe, he was the best player on ALL of his championship teams

Unlike Kobe, Duncan's Spurs have NEVER had a season below 50 wins. When Kobe actually had to carry a bad team the Lakers fell to the lottery/barely won 40 games.
Almost everytime that Kobe had a 50+ team, he mad a trip to the finals.

BlackWhiteGreen

01-10-2012, 07:13 PM

Both are top 10 players of all time imo, but I guess when you say "Kobe is obviously better than Bird" it could be insulting.

I was just making a joke cause your obviously a Celtics fan. :oldlol:

:cheers:

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 07:15 PM

http://www.straitpinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/celtics1.jpg

http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/12/1275/BBMT000Z.jpg

In 1999 and 2003, David Robinson was not on any All NBA teams.

In 2003, 2005 and 2007, Tony Parker was not on any All NBA teams.

In fact, in every championship run Tim Duncan had, he was the ONLY Spur on the All NBA teams, while he was in the All NBA First Team.

In 2000, Kobe was All NBA Second Team, with a teammate, Shaq on All NBA First Team.

In 2001, Kobe was All NBA Second Team, with a teammate, Shaq on All NBA First Team.

In 2002, Kobe was All NBA First Team, with a teammate, Shaq also on All NBA First Team.

In 2009, Kobe was All NBA First Team, with a teammate, Gasol on All NBA Third Team.

In 2010, Kobe was All NBA First Team, with a teammate, Gasol on All NBA Third Team.

=========

Conclusion, Tim Duncan was on more All NBA First Teams than Kobe for his championship years.

Tim Duncan won all his championships without a single teammate on an All NBA teaam.

Kobe Bryant has yet to win a championship without an All NBA teammate.

Them's the facts!

KevinNYC

01-10-2012, 07:17 PM

ok ...but Bird never really seperated himself as the clear cut best player of his generation in the people's/media eyes like Kobe has...

in fact I would say most fans view Magic as the best player of the 80's with Bird bieng a close 2nd....

Are you from LA? Because what you're saying is not true.

At Bird's peak when he had several brilliant seasons in a row, he was being discussed as the best player ever.

Exhibit A March 1986 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1064545/index.htm)

Exhibit B March 1988 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067127/index.htm)

That second article contains this from Red Auerbach when he was fighting Bird's agent because Bird's agent was asking for a million dollar salary.

Auerbach, apoplectic at that, countered with half a million, maybe, if you counted the perks. He said, "It's been proven. A cornerman can't dominate the game. A big man, occasionally even a guard. But one man playing a corner can't turn a franchise around."

By 1988 Auerbach was saying this

Auerbach stood up that night and said, "If I had to start a team, the one guy in all history I would take would be Larry Bird. This is the greatest ballplayer who ever played the game." To say this took an extraordinary amount of "soul-searching" on Auerbach's part. It meant that Bill Russell was No. 2.

From the 1986 article
[QUOTE]Owing to the extraordinary importance of the giant pivotman in the game, it is probably impossible to declare that, in his seventh season, the 6'9", 220-pound Bird, a forward, is greater than Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 07:23 PM

The problem back then was everyone and everybody was regarded as the greatest player ever.

In today's game, you can't be saying that because there are so many players that can be considered that.

Lebron James puts up some of the best stats in history and nobody is claiming him to be the greatest ever.

Kobe Bryant has put up some of the best stats in history as well and also won championships but nobody is going to say he's the best ever.

There are too many players in the world today and past players to ever announce someone the greatest.

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 07:25 PM

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 07:28 PM

Kobe's never averaged 20 fts a game in a 6 gm series! :facepalm

Wade averaged 16.1 FTA/gm in the 2006 Finals. Kobe averaged 16.0 FTA/gm vs. Utah in the 2008 playoffs.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 07:28 PM

nobody considered Bird a GOAT.

Plain stupid when I can name so many players that are better than him in every aspect of the game.

Droid101

01-10-2012, 07:31 PM

Wade averaged 16.1 FTA/gm in the 2006 Finals. Kobe averaged 16.0 FTA/gm vs. Utah in the 2008 playoffs.
Difference? Utah historically fouls more than any team in the league, by far. It's Sloan's way.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 07:34 PM

Also, Wade is known as a flopper in this league and Kobe isn't.

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 07:35 PM

nobody considered Bird a GOAT.

Plain stupid when I can name so many players that are better than him in every aspect of the game.

So someone posts links showing that all these basketball greats were calling Larry Bird the Greatest of All Time, but you're debunking this "myth" by saying it's plain stupid and you can name "so many players" that are better than him.

Well you've got me stumped! Great argument!

OldSchoolBBall

01-10-2012, 07:39 PM

Difference? Utah historically fouls more than any team in the league, by far. It's Sloan's way.

lulz at the incessant excuse-making of Kobe fans when they're confronted by facts. Cry moar. :oldlol:

Also, Wade is known as a flopper in this league and Kobe isn't.

Wade's more aggressive style of play lends itself to getting far more FTA's than Kobe, since 80% of Kobe's FGA were jumpers. Keep making those excuses though, stan. Cry moar.

NumberSix

01-10-2012, 07:39 PM

I automatically don't take anyone seriously if they use TS% and leave out FG% to make their argument.

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 07:41 PM

I automatically don't take anyone seriously if they use TS% and leave out FG% to make their argument.

Exactly. TS% is a stat used to make poor shot selection not look quite so bad.

If you miss a shot, you miss a shot. Simple as that. If it's a contested 3, then that doesn't affect the scoreboard any differently than if you missed an open layup.

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 07:42 PM

lulz at the incessant excuse-making of Kobe fans when they're confronted by facts. Cry moar. :oldlol:

you must not very much basketball and probably read the boxscore with your glasses.

It's a known fact that Utah, during the Sloan era, played a tough nosed defense that consisted of hard fouls.

Where the Mavs plays no defense and were called for fouls that didn't even exist.

KevinNYC

01-10-2012, 07:46 PM

nobody considered Bird a GOAT.

Plain stupid when I can name so many players that are better than him in every aspect of the game.

By the way, if you're curious, this is why people consider you a troll.
I gave you the contemporaneous evidence with links you check yourself and your response is to cover your ears and shout, NO, NO, NO, NO like a three-year-old.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 07:47 PM

I automatically don't take anyone seriously if they use TS% and leave out FG% to make their argument.
Why is that? eFG% is better than FG%. FG% has practically been useless with the other type of shooting and scoring stats we have access to today. TS% shows a player's scoring efficiency. FTs are part of scoring whether people want to accept that notion or not. That notion should actually help Bird since Bird was a better FT shooter though, right? :confusedshrug:

Sakkreth

01-10-2012, 07:47 PM

The fck is this thread ?

9erEmpire

01-10-2012, 07:49 PM

By the way, if you're curious, this is why people consider you a troll.
I gave you the contemporaneous evidence with links you check yourself and your response is to cover your ears and shout, NO, NO, NO, NO like a three-year-old.

Did you happen to pull up the sources where Bird said Kobe is better than him and he would give up all his MVP's if Kobe never got one?

For Red to say these things about Bird and for Bird to say about Kobe....wish Red was alive...he would be creaming in his pants to see a player of Kobe's caliber.

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 07:50 PM

Why is that? eFG% is better than FG%. FG% has practically been useless with the other type of shooting and scoring stats we have access to today. TS% shows a player's scoring efficiency. FTs are part of scoring whether people want to accept that notion or not. That notion should actually help Bird since Bird was a better FT shooter though, right? :confusedshrug:

Why does it matter if there's FT% easily available?

Why not just show the FG% and the FT%?

The other stats are just trying to confuse the issue. FG% and FT% show the amount of shots taken and the amount of shots made. That is simple fact without an arbitrary system to try and make people who miss more seem more efficient than they are.

Harison

01-10-2012, 07:54 PM

To OP - no.

/Thread

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 07:55 PM

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 08:01 PM

Why does it matter if there's FT% easily available?

Why not just show the FG% and the FT%?

The other stats are just trying to confuse the issue. FG% and FT% show the amount of shots taken and the amount of shots made. That is simple fact without an arbitrary system to try and make people who miss more seem more efficient than they are.
Because knowing how many points a player produces every time he shoots the basketball is useful information for people who like basketball. That is pretty much what TS% does. If you want to know how good someone is at converting his scoring opportunities, you have to look at TS%. Everything else will not give you a better information about that.

Bernie Nips

01-10-2012, 08:22 PM

Because knowing how many points a player produces every time he shoots the basketball is useful information for people who like basketball. That is pretty much what TS% does. If you want to know how good someone is at converting his scoring opportunities, you have to look at TS%. Everything else will not give you a better information about that.

So if I look at someone's stats from the game and look at their FG%, FT% and 3P%, you're trying to tell me I won't be able to know how good someone was at converting their scoring opportunities?

Instead I should look at a stat that puts subjective importance into different areas of scoring?

Lebron23

01-10-2012, 08:23 PM

3x NBA MVP > 1x NBA MVP
2x NBA Finals MVP on a better shooting percentage, and better all around game > 2x NBA Finals MVP.

Why does it matter if there's FT% easily available?

Why not just show the FG% and the FT%?

The other stats are just trying to confuse the issue. FG% and FT% show the amount of shots taken and the amount of shots made. That is simple fact without an arbitrary system to try and make people who miss more seem more efficient than they are.

This

Derka

01-10-2012, 08:25 PM

Won more titles.
Scored more.
Played for longer, a testament to his durability and his intelligent decision to not build a f**king driveway on his own in the dead of the Indiana summer.
Won every MVP trophy a player can win.

Yeah, he's got a great case.

But...he's a Laker so f**k him.

Just playing, love you guys. <3

Micku

01-10-2012, 08:28 PM

I can see it. There are both cases for either one of them have one another.

Kobe has more championships, and an equal amount of Final MVPs. He also have more scoring titles, and more all nba defense teams selection. Kobe was a better defender and scorer.

Bird has more MVPs and played tougher competition. He competed against Magic, Kareem, Barkley, Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Moses Malone and others for MVPs and championships. Bird was also more efficient than Kobe, and was a better team player. Bird is probably the better all around player on the offensive end. He's probably the best passing forward, great rebounder, and a deadly shooter.

It could go either way I feel. But I think this point of Kobe's career, he may have more accomplishments and he has more longevity. Bird done it with tougher competition.

So it goes either way I feel.

KevinNYC

01-10-2012, 08:33 PM

Did you happen to pull up the sources where Bird said Kobe is better than him and he would give up all his MVP's if Kobe never got one?

For Red to say these things about Bird and for Bird to say about Kobe....wish Red was alive...he would be creaming in his pants to see a player of Kobe's caliber.

Unfortunately, for you I've taken logic.

You said A never happened.
I show you several examples showing definitively that A occurred.
Your response: NO, NO, NO.
My response, um, this is why people think you're a troll.
Your response, yeah but what about C and D?

You're changing the argument. It's what trolls do when the lose the original argument. Also if you go back and look at what I posted, I haven't said Bird is better than Kobe or vice versa.

Also Red Auerbach died in 2006, he did get to see Kobe's game which is irrelevant anyway to what he said in 1988.

KenneBell

01-10-2012, 08:33 PM

A "strong" case? No.

But, the longer he plays at a high level, the more and more that arguments for Kobe in that tier carry more weight.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 08:34 PM

So if I look at someone's stats from the game and look at their FG%, FT% and 3P%, you're trying to tell me I won't be able to know how good someone was at converting their scoring opportunities?

Instead I should look at a stat that puts subjective importance into different areas of scoring?
Yes.

Here is an example,

In 2008 Jason Kapono made 49% of his shot attempts, 48% from 3pt range and 86% from the free throw line. In comparison to that JR Smith had 46/40/72. Yet, JR Smith ended up with 60.3 TS% and Kapono with 56.1 TS%. JR Smith was the more efficient scorer due to his playing style. You don't see that by just looking at FG%, 3P% and FT%. TS% tells you that right away.

TS% also concludes FGA and FTA in the calculation which is something FG%, 3P%, and FT% does not do.

I can see it. There are both cases for either one of them have one another.

Kobe has more championships, and an equal amount of Final MVPs. He also have more scoring titles, and more all nba defense teams selection. Kobe was a better defender and scorer.

Bird has more MVPs and played tougher competition. He competed against Magic, Kareem, Barkley, Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Moses Malone and others for MVPs and championships. Bird was also more efficient than Kobe, and was a better team player. Bird is probably the better all around player on the offensive end. He's probably the best passing forward, great rebounder, and a deadly shooter.

Competition was actually close. There is no question that Kobe also had to go up against tougher defenses. Kobe had to go up against two all-time great defensive teams in the '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics. Bird never went up against a team even close to the same level defensively as those two teams were.

Celtics Opponents (Top 6 Defense)

79-80: 76ers (#1)
80-81: 76ers (#2)
81-82: Bullets (#5)
82-83: Bucks (#6)
83-84: Knicks (#1), Bucks (#2)
85-86: Hawks (#6), Bucks (#2)
86-87: Bucks (#4), Pistons (#5)
87-88: Pistons (#1)
90-91: Pistons (#4)

Lakers Opponents (Top 6 Defense)

98-99: Spurs (#1)
99-00: Suns (#3), Blazers (#5)
00-01: Spurs (#1), Sixers (#5)
01-02: Spurs (#2), Kings (#6), Nets (#1)
02-03: Spurs (#3)
03-04: Rockets (#5), Spurs (#1), Wolves (#6), Pistons (#2)
07-08: Spurs (#3), Celtics (#1)
08-09: Rockets (#4), Magic (#1)
09-10: Celtics (#5)

Bird was also more efficient than Kobe

While Bird was more efficient than Kobe, Kobe was also the one that took on a bigger scoring load so that is to be expected.

From 82-88, in the playoffs, the Celtics averaged 109.8 ppg...Bird was averaging 22.9% of his team's points.

From 01-10, in the playoffs, the Lakers averaged 99.2 ppg...Kobe was averaging 29.0% of his team's points.

Odinn

01-10-2012, 08:36 PM

I don't get this.

Better offensive player - Equal
Better defensive player - Kobe
More individual accomplishments - Bird
More team accomplishments - slightest edge to Kobe

How exactly is Bird even in the same sentence as Kobe?
As offensive players, pretty much equal. If you'd said scoring, Kobe would have the edge.

Individual accomplishments;
Bird had 1 of top5 rookie seasons ever.(32W improvement)
3 straight MVPs, 2FMVPs, 3 titles as the man > 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs, 2 titles as tha man, 3 titles as the sidekick (also Bird has more top5 mvp finishes, more mvp shares)

Team accomplishments;
-When Bird was a Celtic(excluding his injury season; 1988-89);
In 12 seasons; The Celtics averaged 59W per seasons. 6x 60+W season. 5x NBA Finals, 3x NBA Champions. Before Bird's injury the Celtics never lost in 1st round.
-When Kobe was a Laker(if I exclude Bird's injury season, I'm gonna do something for Kobe's favor and exclude his bench seasons);
In 13 seaons; The Lakers averaged 52W per seasons. 2x 60+W season. 7x NBA Finals, 5x NBA Finals.
Bird has the edge on RS and Kobe has the edge on # of titles(not exactly on PO).

Kobe has a case over Bird. I can agree with that. Strong one? Nope. Kobe can be ranked over Bird at the end of his career and if it happens, it'll be happened thanks to greater longevity and greater team accomplishments.

PS;
Peak wise; Bird > Kobe. Bird's impact was greater than Kobe's.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-10-2012, 08:40 PM

Yes.

Here is an example,

In 2008 Jason Kapono made 49% of his shot attempts, 48% from 3pt range and 86% from the free throw line. In comparison to that JR Smith had 46/40/72. Yet, JR Smith ended up with 60.3 TS% and Kapono with 56.1 TS%. JR Smith was the more efficient scorer due to his playing style.

:wtf: :facepalm

He ended up with a higher TS% because of his volume, not style.

Jasper

01-10-2012, 08:41 PM

Bird > Kobe

/end thread

right ' o '

sometimes we need to realize that careers are cut short , or prolonged.
In Birds case he retired , and if healthy could of played 3 or more years effectively.

Kobe has been playing how many years ??

If were to put into the dimension : other players affecting the out come of threads players :
I would inject : Shaq would of played with Bird for several years raking up rings left and right :D

My all-time list still doesn't hav Kobe in the top 10.

KenneBell

01-10-2012, 08:42 PM

My all-time list still doesn't hav Kobe in the top 10.
That's good for you, but I think most do at this point.

01-10-2012, 08:44 PM

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 08:44 PM

right ' o '

sometimes we need to realize that careers are cut short , or prolonged.
In Birds case he retired , and if healthy could of played 3 or more years effectively.

That's unfortunate but durability and health is part of the game. We could talk about how Bill Walton probably would have been the GOAT center if he were healthy but he was never healthy. It is pointless to factor in things like that because it is nothing more than a hypothetical. People judge based on what happened, not based on what could have happened. That is exactly why winning a ring is important to one's greatness.

My all-time list still doesn't hav Kobe in the top 10.
Kobe isn't in your top 10? What is your top 10?

Micku

01-10-2012, 09:00 PM

Competition was actually close. There is no question that Kobe also had to go up against tougher defenses. Kobe had to go up against two all-time great defensive teams in the '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics. Bird never went up against a team even close to the same level defensively as those two teams were.

Well, Bird did went up against the Pistons, The Bucks and 76ers.

Defense was different back then. It was more one on one and hand checking was involved, so it was more physical, especially if you drive to the paint. Team defense is better now, but that's not to say that there wasn't any team defense back then either.

As I said, Bird did went against the Bucks and Pistons, who were legendary in their regard with Sidney Moncrief and Paul Pressey for the Bucks and a bunch of dirty players with the Pistons. Remember, Bird also went against Cooper, who was one of the best perimeter defenders ever. He also went against Rodman. Bird went up against some of them best individual defenders.

While Bird was more efficient than Kobe, Kobe was also the one that took on a bigger scoring load so that is to be expected.

From 82-88, in the playoffs, the Celtics averaged 109.8 ppg...Bird was averaging 22.9% of his team's points.

From 01-10, in the playoffs, the Lakers averaged 99.2 ppg...Kobe was averaging 29.0% of his team's points.

This is true in terms of how Kobe scores more in volume, but Bird was always more efficient even when he scored a lot. Bird is one of those players who could score more, but didn't. But that doesn't matter much.

What mattered more was that Bird did more to help the team on the offensive end. It was more than just scoring. It was passing, rebounding, and starting the fast break. There were guys in the 80s who scored on a higher volume and more efficient than Bird, but Bird did the other things similar to Magic Johnson. Like what your comparison of scoring, you would say that Kobe was better than Magic Johnson at getting his team some points. Which is sort'a true individually, but doesn't tell the whole story since Magic Johnson would run the offense and get his teams looks. And Bird was similar to that.

Which is why the addition of Bird transformed a team that had 29 wins to 61 wins in his rookie year without any real change.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 09:14 PM

Well, Bird did went up against the Pistons, The Bucks and 76ers.

Defense was different back then. It was more one on one and hand checking was involved, so it was more physical, especially if you drive to the paint. Team defense is better now, but that's not to say that there wasn't any team defense back then either.

As I said, Bird did went against the Bucks and Pistons, who were legendary in their regard with Sidney Moncrief and Paul Pressey for the Bucks and a bunch of dirty players with the Pistons. Remember, Bird also went against Cooper, who was one of the best perimeter defenders ever. He also went against Rodman. Bird went up against some of them best individual defenders.

Bird also went up against tough defensive teams as well but Kobe went up against even tougher defensive teams and more tough defensive teams. I agree with the rest of your post though.

I am not sure if I have Kobe above Bird now in my all-time list but I think he is climbing. The more I read and research about Bird, the more I realize that Bird isn't as great as the stats and people say he is. He had a lot of playoff shortcomings, more than Magic, yet for whatever reason more people claim that Magic was less clutch and a bigger choker than Bird because of his "Tragic" Johnson' incident in 1984 when Bird has had much worse. I think in a few seasons Kobe will be considered better/greater than Bird by most and then a few years after his retirement the majority will have Kobe above Bird.

The "I miss you factor" is pretty huge when ranking all-time great players. Hakeem is a perfect example of this factor. Nobody listed and considered him a top 10 player of all-time during his twilight years and immediately after his retirement but in the past 5+ years or so people have started to put Hakeem in the top 10 and even higher now a days.

Micku

01-10-2012, 10:14 PM

I am not sure if I have Kobe above Bird now in my all-time list but I think he is climbing. The more I read and research about Bird, the more I realize that Bird isn't as great as the stats and people say he is. He had a lot of playoff shortcomings, more than Magic, yet for whatever reason more people claim that Magic was less clutch and a bigger choker than Bird because of his "Tragic" Johnson' incident in 1984 when Bird has had much worse. I think in a few seasons Kobe will be considered better/greater than Bird by most and then a few years after his retirement the majority will have Kobe above Bird.

Magic was more accomplish in his career than Bird. But with all due respect to Magic, Magic did have more of talented and stacked team early in their careers in comparison to Bird. He had MVP with Kareem, good back up with Cooper, Wilkins while Bird didn't have the talent that he did and was the man from the beginning.

But what ultimately ended Bird and the Cetlics were injuries. Their main rise was in the mid 80s, especially when Kevin Mchale became more of a star, and they made the finals four straight times.

But I agree with you said about Kobe. I think Kobe has a case over Bird. I think the majority would consider Kobe over Bird, if they haven't already.

NumberSix

01-10-2012, 11:28 PM

Why is that? eFG% is better than FG%. FG% has practically been useless with the other type of shooting and scoring stats we have access to today. TS% shows a player's scoring efficiency. FTs are part of scoring whether people want to accept that notion or not. That notion should actually help Bird since Bird was a better FT shooter though, right? :confusedshrug:
So what's the problem with having FG% AND FT%? I mean, they're both important, and this information is more detailed. Isn't more information better?

As for it helping Bird. I don't care who's argument it helps or hurts. My opinion doesn't change based on which player it favors. TS% is a pointless stat that serves no purpose. You can have an abysmal FG% and still appear to have a respectable TS% if you're 90% from the FT line. All TS% does is give you less information.

StateOfMind12

01-10-2012, 11:30 PM

So what's the problem with having FG% AND FT%? I mean, they're both important, and this information is more detailed. Isn't more information better?

As for it helping Bird. I don't care who's argument it helps or hurts. My opinion doesn't change based on which player it favors. TS% is a pointless stat that serves no purpose. You can have an abysmal FG% and still appear to have a respectable TS% if you're 90% from the FT line. All TS% does is give you less information.
I already explained this here....
.

Because knowing how many points a player produces every time he shoots the basketball is useful information for people who like basketball. That is pretty much what TS% does. If you want to know how good someone is at converting his scoring opportunities, you have to look at TS%. Everything else will not give you a better information about that.

Yes.

Here is an example,

In 2008 Jason Kapono made 49% of his shot attempts, 48% from 3pt range and 86% from the free throw line. In comparison to that JR Smith had 46/40/72. Yet, JR Smith ended up with 60.3 TS% and Kapono with 56.1 TS%. JR Smith was the more efficient scorer due to his playing style. You don't see that by just looking at FG%, 3P% and FT%. TS% tells you that right away.

TS% also concludes FGA and FTA in the calculation which is something FG%, 3P%, and FT% does not do.

Odinn

01-10-2012, 11:33 PM

If you know the league's fg-ft-3pt averages you don't need that crap to judge efficiency.

D-Wade316

01-10-2012, 11:33 PM

NumberSix

01-10-2012, 11:35 PM

IMO, I wish that they tracked not only field goals, but open shots and contested shots. Say a guy had 5 open shots and he hit 4 of them. I'd like a stat that says 4/5 on open shots. 80% OS%

RRR3

01-10-2012, 11:36 PM

Bird>Kobe

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvnllgEb3D1qbl5bpo1_400.gif

heyhey

01-10-2012, 11:38 PM

Agree. It's close between them. Kobe has the longevity, while Bird had the better team success.

what does that mean? success as defined by what? certainly not rings, finals appearances.

KenneBell

01-10-2012, 11:38 PM

Bird>Kobe

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvnllgEb3D1qbl5bpo1_400.gif
:roll:

The Iron Fist

01-10-2012, 11:39 PM

Kobe pssed Bird awhile ago. Give Kobe 3 HoFers in their primes and he has 8 rings.

Odinn

01-10-2012, 11:40 PM

what does that mean? success as defined by what? certainly not rings, finals appearances.

Individual accomplishments;
Bird had 1 of top5 rookie seasons ever.(32W improvement)
3 straight MVPs, 2FMVPs, 3 titles as the man > 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs, 2 titles as tha man, 3 titles as the sidekick (also Bird has more top5 mvp finishes, more mvp shares)

Team accomplishments;
-When Bird was a Celtic(excluding his injury season; 1988-89);
In 12 seasons; The Celtics averaged 59W per season. 6x 60+W season. 5x NBA Finals, 3x NBA Champions. Before Bird's injury the Celtics never lost in 1st round.
-When Kobe was a Laker(if I exclude Bird's injury season, I'm gonna do something for Kobe's favor and exclude his bench seasons);
In 13 seaons; The Lakers averaged 52W per season. 2x 60+W season. 7x NBA Finals, 5x NBA Finals.
Bird has the edge on RS and Kobe has the edge on # of titles(not exactly on PO).
:cheers:

Odinn

01-10-2012, 11:42 PM

Kobe pssed Bird awhile ago. Give Kobe 3 HoFers in their primes and he has 8 rings.
Against Sixers, Bad Boys and Showtime Lakers?:roll: :roll:

The Iron Fist

01-10-2012, 11:44 PM

Against Sixers, Bad Boys and Showtime Lakers?:roll: :roll:
Why would Kobe compete in that era?

Odinn

01-10-2012, 11:50 PM

Why would Kobe compete in that era?
You're one of the offgrade trolls, aren't you?..:facepalm

He already had 3 HoFers during his career and won 5 titles(3 of them as the sidekick); P-Jax, Shaq, Pau Gasol (if we consider his international career, Pau definetely will be HoF).

If you're talking about having 3 HoFers alongside at the same time, you're basically talking about the '80s because we discuss about Bird&Kobe. And there is no way to win 8 titles in the '80s.

Try again.

Glide2keva

01-10-2012, 11:53 PM

Sure he does. Kobe fans :facepalm

The Iron Fist

01-10-2012, 11:53 PM

You're one of the offgrade trolls, aren't you?..:facepalm

He alredy had 3 HoFers during his career and won 5 titles(3 of them as the sidekick); P-Jax, Shaq, Pau Gasol (if we consider his international career, Pau will definetely will be HoF).

If you're talking about having 3 HoFers alongside at the same time, you're basically talking about the '80s because we discuss about Bird&Kobe. And there is no way to win 8 titles in the '80s.

Try again.

3 at the s ame time, in their primes, in his era. 8 rings. Easily.