Better passer, LeBron or MJ?

[fubu05]

It seems to me like many favor Bron and that it's not really close... But it's not true. MJ even had a stretch where he was moved over to point and was dishing out 10+ assists a game. What do you guys think?

Heres the article. It highlights Jordan's numbers in his move to point. Even outplaying Magic Johnson one game with 16 assists.

http://thebestten.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/chapter-37-the-triple-double-run/


When it became obvious that relying on Michael Jordan alone to win games was no longer working, the Chicago Bulls tried a move that surprised everyone. They shifted Michael Jordan to the point guard position.

The move had an immediate impact for the Bulls. In Michael’s first game as a point guard, he dished out 15 assists in a blowout win over the Seattle Supersonics. In his next game, Michael recorded a triple double with 21 points, 14 rebounds, and 14 assists in another blowout of the Indiana Pacers. The results were almost too good to believe, and it seemed as if the Bulls had found the magic bullet. But will it last?


On March 21st, the Bulls played the defending champs the Lakers in LA. In what turned out to be an epic showdown, Michael Jordan went head to head against another elite point guard in Magic Johnson. Michael used the opportunity to outshine Magic by dishing out 16 assists to Magic’s 12. The Bulls used a balanced attack and had 3 players with 20 or more points (Jordan, Pippen, Hodges) and 5 players scoring in double digits. Magic missed the game tying free throw late in the game and the Bulls won with a final score of 104-103.


On March 25, Michael began a run of 10 triple doubles in 11 games, including 7 straight before missing one against the Pistons where he had 40 points, 11 assists, and 7 rebounds. He would finish the season with 15 triple doubles, 3 shy of Magic Johnson’s record among active players.


Clyde Drexler had this to say, “Everybody has to watch (Jordan) with the ball. The other guys are free to roam, and their shooting percentages are going to soar. I think (Jordan) handles the ball better than Magic. (Jordan) just makes everybody else better.”

“So many people key on Michael that you’re usually going to have one or two guys open all the time,” Hawks forward Dominique Wilkins said. “It makes them that much more effective. It depends on how the other players respond to it, and they’ve responded very well.”

[SilkkTheShocker]

Easily Lebron.

[RaininTwos]

You know the answer is going to be Jordan. Even though Lebron is the better passer you know people are going to say Jordan. This generation makes it seem like he has to be the best perimeter player at everything.

[Vienceslav]

Bron.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Jordan.

[v1ncelis]

I will go with a guy who averaged 11 assists in NBA finals.

[jstern]

Jordan did play point guard for like a month, and average almost a triple double while scoring over 30+ ppg. The question is, why did his rebounds go up?

Anyway, I have to go with Lebron, cause that's his game. We can only go by what we've seen, not what could of if Jordan played a pass first type of game.

[Glide2keva]

Well, to me they are both great passers. I will give a slight edge to lebron. he has natural PG instincts and sees the court better than Jordan did. As a Jordan fan, I can say Jordan was by far a great passer. His 11 assists average in his first Finals appearance can attest.

Also as someone stated in 1989 he was mved to PG for the last month of the season and was getting 40 point triple doubles on an almost nightly basis. He had 10 out of 11 games where he had a triple double and he was still getting over 30+ points.

Both guys are great passers, but this one i will give to lebron.

[pauk]

Lebron... and this comes from a super biased Jordan fan that have seen most of his games...

only a Lebron hater would say differently...

Lebron has better court vision & passing ability than Jordan... is also more unselfish than him...

Not just that... but Lebron is the best passing non-PG in NBA history... the only other guy that gets close is Larry Bird..

[pauk]

Well, to me they are both great passers. I will give a slight edge to lebron. he has natural PG instincts and sees the court better than Jordan did. As a Jordan fan, I can say Jordan was by far a great passer. His 11 assists average in his first Finals appearance can attest.

Also as someone stated in 1989 he was mved to PG for the last month of the season and was getting 40 point triple doubles on an almost nightly basis. He had 10 out of 11 games where he had a triple double and he was still getting over 30+ points.

Both guys are great passers, but this one i will give to lebron.

Here is Lebron starting Point-Guard 13 games in a row, his last season with Cavs:

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Untitled-2-2.png

that is:

31.7 PPG
7.3 RPG
11.6 APG

[blablabla]

Lebron... and this comes from a super biased Jordan fan that have seen most of his games...

only a Lebron hater would say differently...

Lebron has better court vision & passing ability than Jordan... is also more unselfish than him...

Not just that... but Lebron is the best passing non-PG in NBA history... the only other guy that gets close is Larry Bird..
larry bird is a better passer than lebron

[La Frescobaldi]

#1 Pete Maravich

#2 Magic Johnson

#3 Larry Bird

#4 Bob Cousy

#5 LeBron James

#6 either Jason Kidd or Steve Nash


MJ = elite passer, as in everything he did, but not up there with those guys.....
for pure passing there's a lot of guys to argue it with MJ... Walt Frazier for example, Stockton for example. Jordan wasn't even the best passer on his team, Pippen was amazing, just surgical razors

[bwink23]

They are both excellent passers....but i give the edge to Lebron, simply cuz he has a pass-first mentality while Jordan was the opposite...

[StateOfMind12]

Michael Jordan. Lebron is probably the most overrated playmaker/passer/facilitator ever. Lebron is a very slow decision maker and playmaker. It seems like he just finds and passes it to the obvious open man like the open man that almost everyone can already see. I have never been wowed by Lebron's passing skills which is why I think anyone that compares him to Magic don't have a clue about what they're talking about.


I can almost guarantee you most people wouldn't be saying Lebron if he didn't average more assists. Just because one player averages more assists than the other doesn't mean he was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator and I hope people understand that.

I understand why people take Lebron, it's just for a terrible reason.

[bwink23]

#1 Pete Maravich

#2 Magic Johnson

#3 Larry Bird

#4 Bob Cousy

#5 LeBron James

#6 either Jason Kidd or Steve Nash


MJ = elite passer, as in everything he did, but not up there with those guys.....
for pure passing there's a lot of guys to argue it with MJ... Walt Frazier for example, Stockton for example. Jordan wasn't even the best passer on his team, Pippen was amazing, just surgical razors


BULLSHIT :facepalm

[Whoah10115]

Pure passer, Lebron. He also has better vision and better pure playmaking. But Jordan is an overall playmaker, able to draw in players and set up others. That's a big part of his assists, if not the biggest. He also had the better feel for the game, which says a lot.

[TheMan]

MJ if he wanted to, could've been one of the best PGs ever if he chose to, that month he did proves it but that was more Pippen's role, so MJ concentrated more on offense.

I'll say LeBron because it's more in his nature to facillitate, sometimes too much so, in detriment to his team when he should be taking over on offense (see last Finals).

[jstern]

Here is Lebron starting Point-Guard 13 games in a row, his last season with Cavs:

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Untitled-2-2.png

that is:

31.7 PPG
7.3 RPG
11.6 APG
Can you do me a favor? Can you go to the link in the bottom and put a picture up of games 58 to 76, so that we can compare the two, cause at first glance they're very similar.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/

[La Frescobaldi]

#1 Pete Maravich

#2 Magic Johnson

#3 Larry Bird

#4 Bob Cousy

#5 LeBron James

#6 either Jason Kidd or Steve Nash


MJ = elite passer, as in everything he did, but not up there with those guys.....
for pure passing there's a lot of guys to argue it with MJ... Walt Frazier for example, Stockton for example. Jordan wasn't even the best passer on his team, Pippen was amazing, just surgical razors


BULLSHIT :facepalm


lolol ok we disagree... Pip was a great distributor although, he did have a target that could get the ball in the hoop pretty good

[DirtySanchez]

I would give it up to LeBron.

[StateOfMind12]

#1 Pete Maravich

#2 Magic Johnson

#3 Larry Bird

#4 Bob Cousy

#5 LeBron James

#6 either Jason Kidd or Steve Nash


MJ = elite passer, as in everything he did, but not up there with those guys.....
for pure passing there's a lot of guys to argue it with MJ... Walt Frazier for example, Stockton for example. Jordan wasn't even the best passer on his team, Pippen was amazing, just surgical razors
:facepalm This is quite possibly the worst post ever..

[Cowboy Thunder]

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bron-bosh.gif

[DirtySanchez]

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bron-bosh.gif

That was Bosh's face fault!

[pauk]

larry bird is a better passer than lebron

Nah... only the biased old school sympathizers would say that...
Larry Bird had great vision & passing ability... but Lebron has great vision, passing ability and ballhandling... drafted point-guard, with his 2ndary position being Point-Guard still to this day...... Bird did not have the Point-Guard skills Lebron has.... not even close...

Larry Bird was only a great PASSER, assists coming from mostly set offense, isos in the post and so on........ he could not create with his passing the pointguard way, the Lebron way entire games...... bringing the ball up, threading the needle of the dribble on fastbreaks and so on all the time... having somebody full court pressure you and still create...... larry bird was NOT like that.... he was just simply a good passer...

Lebrons passing tools are much wider than just "being a good passer"... he could actually be the best Point-Guard in the NBA and average 10++ assists unlike Larry Bird........

Larry Bird was just a pure SF/PF who loved to do a flashy pass and who had HUGE unselfishness....

But when you hear somebody say Larry Bird was a greater passer than Lebron..... thats when you know somebody is either getting OVERRATED OR UNDERRATED

Larry Bird was not a greater passer than Lebron........ and there is no proof to that either..... infact there is proof to Lebron being a greater passer...

[blablabla]

Nah... only the biased old school sympathizers would say that...
Larry Bird had great vision & passing ability... but Lebron has great vision, passing ability and ballhandling... drafted point-guard, with his 2ndary position being Point-Guard still to this day...... Bird did not have the Point-Guard skills Lebron has.... not even close...

Larry Bird was only a great PASSER, assists coming from mostly set offense, isos in the post and so on........ he could not create with his passing that way entire games......

Lebrons passing tools are much wider than just "being a good passer"... he could actually be the best Point-Guard in the NBA and average 10++ assists unlike Larry Bird........

Larry Bird was just a pure SF/PF who loved to do a flashy pass and who had HUGE unselfishness....
if he could average 10+assists he would
and lebron assists don't come from great passes like birds they come from
iso iso iso iso iso until he sees the open man at the 3 point line



#1 Pete Maravich

#2 Magic Johnson

#3 Larry Bird

#4 Bob Cousy

#5 LeBron James

#6 either Jason Kidd or Steve Nash


MJ = elite passer, as in everything he did, but not up there with those guys.....
for pure passing there's a lot of guys to argue it with MJ... Walt Frazier for example, Stockton for example. Jordan wasn't even the best passer on his team, Pippen was amazing, just surgical razors
:facepalm

[arifgokcen]

I watched jordan a lot.He does most things better than lebron obviously, however passing is not one of them.Lebron is by far the best passing non-pg in nba.Larry has never set up his teammates the way lebron(like a real pg) does on constant basis.So please don't tell me hee was the best passing non-pg.

[arifgokcen]

if he could average 10+assists he would
and lebron assists don't come from great passes like birds they come from
iso iso iso iso iso until he sees the open man at the 3 point line



:facepalm

Did you ever watch his game objectively.Please do so then come and talk

[StateOfMind12]

It's one thing to say Lebron is a better passer than MJ but it's entirely different thing to say he was a better passer than Bird, Kidd, and Nash.

[Inactive]

if he could average 10+assists he would
and lebron assists don't come from great passes like birds they come from
iso iso iso iso iso until he sees the open man at the 3 point line



:facepalmA lot of his assists come from penetrating, drawing attention, and finding the open man. That's what you're supposed to do. The fact that he's able to find the open man before the defense recovers, and deliver the ball to him, regardless of where he is, is what makes him a good passer. He's also very good in the pick and roll, which is where he got a lot of his assists in Cleveland.

I think Lebron is a better passer than MJ. MJ had his moments, but he either didn't consistently have the level of court awareness that Lebron has, or he just wasn't willing to attempt some of the passes that Lebron makes consistently. I think Bird was a better passer than Lebron, but I'm not sure.

[97 bulls]

I gotta go with jordan. There's nothing I've seen james do that a lot of players couldn't do if they dominated the ball as much as him on offense as far as passing goes.

Both james and jordan play totally different roles on their teams. It wasn't jordans job to facilitate the offense. Not becaause he couldn't, but cuz his offense was more needed. There's no doubt in my mind that jordan could've started out at the top of the 3 pt line attacked the basket, and kick out to open wing players if they tried to help out on his attacks to the basket.

Remember, jordan did avg 8 assists one year.

[Da_Realist]

Nah... only the biased old school sympathizers would say that...
Larry Bird had great vision & passing ability... but Lebron has great vision, passing ability and ballhandling... drafted point-guard, with his 2ndary position being Point-Guard still to this day...... Bird did not have the Point-Guard skills Lebron has.... not even close...

Larry Bird was only a great PASSER, assists coming from mostly set offense, isos in the post and so on........ he could not create with his passing the pointguard way, the Lebron way entire games...... bringing the ball up, threading the needle of the dribble on fastbreaks and so on all the time... having somebody full court pressure you and still create...... larry bird was NOT like that.... he was just simply a good passer...

Lebrons passing tools are much wider than just "being a good passer"... he could actually be the best Point-Guard in the NBA and average 10++ assists unlike Larry Bird........

Larry Bird was just a pure SF/PF who loved to do a flashy pass and who had HUGE unselfishness....

But when you hear somebody say Larry Bird was a greater passer than Lebron..... thats when you know somebody is either getting OVERRATED OR UNDERRATED

Larry Bird was not a greater passer than Lebron........ and there is no proof to that either..... infact there is proof to Lebron being a greater passer...

You are out of your effin mind.

[97 bulls]

A lot of his assists come from penetrating, drawing attention, and finding the open man. That's what you're supposed to do. The fact that he's able to find the open man before the defense recovers, and deliver the ball to him, regardless of where he is, is what makes him a good passer. He's also very good in the pick and roll, which is where he got a lot of his assists in Cleveland.

I think Lebron is a better passer than MJ. MJ had his moments, but he either didn't consistently have the level of court awareness that Lebron has, or he just wasn't willing to attempt some of the passes that Lebron makes consistently. I think Bird was a better passer than Lebron, but I'm not sure.
They played different roles. It wasn't jordans job too set up his teammates. Not because he couldn't, but cuz the bulls had other guys that were capable of doing that in pippen and kukoc.

Remember, jordan spent most of his prime in the triangle offense. That offense doesn't allow for a ball dominant type player.

[Vienceslav]

This is not necessary just about the stats , meaning just looking at the number of passed the player made and stating that this is the sole reason they are the better passer.Obviously both are players who can bring the ball down court and run the offense , this is where Lebron has the edge in this department.
People need to understand that comparing Lebron to Jordan as a overall player was just from a media driven need to find the next Jordan and later find an opponent for Kobe.The right comparison for Lebron is Magic(of course skill wise speaking , discussing athleticism Dr. J would be a better example) because Lebron could and still can run the offense from point guard position.
Comparing passing highlights would also shine some light into this argument , but again it would not tell the whole story and could be very misleading(Kobe has a passing mixes that would easily put him into this conversation).
I guess what i

[jlip]

To me this is Lebron easily. Frankly it's not even debatable IMO. In this case, the eye test, the numbers, and the mentality all favor Lebron. I can't even possibly make a case for MJ being a better passer, at least not one based upon actual results.

[alenleomessi]

Nah... only the biased old school sympathizers would say that...
Larry Bird had great vision & passing ability... but Lebron has great vision, passing ability and ballhandling... drafted point-guard, with his 2ndary position being Point-Guard still to this day...... Bird did not have the Point-Guard skills Lebron has.... not even close...

Larry Bird was only a great PASSER, assists coming from mostly set offense, isos in the post and so on........ he could not create with his passing the pointguard way, the Lebron way entire games...... bringing the ball up, threading the needle of the dribble on fastbreaks and so on all the time... having somebody full court pressure you and still create...... larry bird was NOT like that.... he was just simply a good passer...

Lebrons passing tools are much wider than just "being a good passer"... he could actually be the best Point-Guard in the NBA and average 10++ assists unlike Larry Bird........

Larry Bird was just a pure SF/PF who loved to do a flashy pass and who had HUGE unselfishness....

But when you hear somebody say Larry Bird was a greater passer than Lebron..... thats when you know somebody is either getting OVERRATED OR UNDERRATED

Larry Bird was not a greater passer than Lebron........ and there is no proof to that either..... infact there is proof to Lebron being a greater passer...
So you are pretty much saying, Lebron is the best passer ever?

[Coffee Black]

SMH at people saying James is a better passer than Bird. First of all Bird did not dominate the ball as much as LeBron does, so a comparison of numbers is pointless. Second much of LeBron's passes are to open shooters. Bird was few step ahead of all the players on the court, passing the ball to his teammates seemingly before they started their cut to the basket, or nailing a man running the lane on the semi-fast break from the other side of the court. LeBron knows where his teammates are and gets them the ball when they are open especially in the situation where the defense has collapsed or are overplaying LeBron. LeBron has his occasional pass no one saw coming, but that is not quite a few steps ahead is it?

[dyna]

Bron..

[blood yes]

Michael Jordan. Lebron is probably the most overrated playmaker/passer/facilitator ever. Lebron is a very slow decision maker and playmaker. It seems like he just finds and passes it to the obvious open man like the open man that almost everyone can already see. I have never been wowed by Lebron's passing skills which is why I think anyone that compares him to Magic don't have a clue about what they're talking about.


I can almost guarantee you most people wouldn't be saying Lebron if he didn't average more assists. Just because one player averages more assists than the other doesn't mean he was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator and I hope people understand that.

I understand why people take Lebron, it's just for a terrible reason.



Dude, why the **** are you so stupid?

I can understand why someone would hate lebron, and I respect that

But to say Lebron is a bad passer makes you a dumbass

[TheAdmiral3]

lebron is currently not even the best passing sf

[knickswin]

i would say jordan. more spontaneous and creative.

[knickswin]

i like old school passers like bird and jordan who were more about being one step ahead of the defense than guys like lebron and chris paul who dominate the ball a lot and hit the open man. steve nash is kind of a combination of the two lol. i was pretty impressed by how dirk did some of that during the playoffs.

[Miller for 3]

Jordan. Stat nerds will say Lebron, but Lebrons assists came at the expense of his team's offense. for instance in 07 the Cavs average 112 ppg without Lebron, and only 94 ppg with him.

Jordan on the otherhand led some of the GOAT offenses.

[DonDadda59]

Lebron. He can score 30+ on any given night, but his court vision is probably the most impressive part of his game. I'd say he's on par with Larry Bird when it comes to vision/passing ability as a forward.

But Jordan's play-making ability is grossly underrated by some. Like the OP mentioned, when he was given PG duties, he excelled.

[jlip]

Jordan. Stat nerds will say Lebron, but Lebrons assists came at the expense of his team's offense. for instance in 07 the Cavs average 112 ppg without Lebron, and only 94 ppg with him.

Jordan on the otherhand led some of the GOAT offenses.


This is funny. First you criticize people who would disagree with you for being "stat nerds." Then you try to make your case by using...stats.

[inclinerator]

lebron is currently not even the best passing sf
who is? if you mean all time, u know bird is a better passer than jordan right?

[Da_Realist]

Bird shouldn't be in this discussion.

[pauk]

You are out of your effin mind.

No.. but YOU might be...

Lebron career assist average: 7.0 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron highest assist average: 8.6 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron lowest assist average: 5.9 APG (highest in NBA history by a rookie non-PG)
Lebrons highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 11.4 APG (starting pointguard, 15 games)

Bird career assist average: 6.3 APG
Bird highest assist average: 7.6 APG
Bird lowest assist average: 4.5 APG
Birds highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 8.0 (15 games)


Lebron assist highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isKmafSafM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx8atwHxXM

Bird assist highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPMMO7xiLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOYrZhFOGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk1O0DqxQk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCv8OjCTQY



As you can see...... one thing is damn sure.... Larry Bird was NOT a better passer than Lebron... you could maybe, arguably get away with saying he is right up there with Lebron... but better? No.... these two are clearly the best passing non-PGs in NBA history....... but if there is an edge it goes to Lebron.... that is something you will have to learn to accept old timer...

[97 bulls]

No.. but YOU might be...

Lebron career assist average: 7.0 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron highest assist average: 8.6 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron lowest assist average: 5.9 APG (highest in NBA history by a rookie non-PG)
Lebrons highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 11.4 APG (starting pointguard, 15 games)

Bird career assist average: 6.3 APG
Bird highest assist average: 7.6 APG
Bird lowest assist average: 4.5 APG
Birds highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 8.0 (15 games)


Lebron assist highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isKmafSafM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx8atwHxXM

Bird assist highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPMMO7xiLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOYrZhFOGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk1O0DqxQk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCv8OjCTQY



As you can see...... one thing is damn sure.... Larry Bird was NOT a better passer than Lebron... you could maybe, arguably get away with saying he is right up there with Lebron... but better? No.... these two are clearly the best passing non-PGs in NBA history....... but if there is an edge it goes to Lebron.... that is something you will have to learn to accept old timer...
Assists is no more of an indication of a players passing ability than FG% is on a players scoring. You don't think jordan could go to the top of the three and drive and kick to an open man? Come on. You think lebron james would be able to avg even 6 assists per game in an offense like the triangle? Stop looking solely at statistics

[Da_Realist]

No.. but YOU might be...

Lebron career assist average: 7.0 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron highest assist average: 8.6 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron lowest assist average: 5.9 APG (highest in NBA history by a rookie non-PG)
Lebrons highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 11.4 APG (starting pointguard, 15 games)

Bird career assist average: 6.3 APG
Bird highest assist average: 7.6 APG
Bird lowest assist average: 4.5 APG
Birds highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 8.0 (15 games)


Lebron was/is the de facto point guard of his team dominating the ball every posession. Bird wasn't. Those numbers mean nothing when comparing the two.



Lebron assist highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isKmafSafM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx8atwHxXM

Bird assist highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPMMO7xiLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOYrZhFOGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk1O0DqxQk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCv8OjCTQY


As you can see...... one thing is damn sure.... Larry Bird was NOT a better passer than Lebron... you could maybe, arguably get away with saying he is right up there with Lebron... but better? No.... these two are clearly the best passing non-PGs in NBA history....... but if there is an edge it goes to Lebron.... that is something you will have to learn to accept old timer...

No, that's not for damn sure. Lebron is good at finding the open man, but Bird passed to his teammates before they even knew they were open. And passing is more than just assists. Bird was great at passing to a guy so that he could easily pass it off to someone else. Assist would go to another player, but it was Bird that set up the play.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Assists is no more of an indication of a players passing ability than FG% is on a players scoring. You don't think jordan could go to the top of the three and drive and kick to an open man? Come on. You think lebron james would be able to avg even 8 assists per game in an offense like the triangle? Stop looking solely at statistics
/Thread

[KevinNYC]

You are out of your effin mind.

You saved me from writing up a long post.

I really like Lebron as a passer and think he's better than MJ at it. But Bird was better.

[KevinNYC]

I forget which coach said, maybe Hubie Brown, but he that Bird always made the pass to the most dangerous man--the player who was most likely to make the basket at that time.

[KevinNYC]

One thing I like about Lebron's passing is his strength. I've seen him be near halfcourt and make a crosscourt pass to someone in the corner by just flicking his wrists. The movement is so small that you never think he's trying to go that far with the ball.

[TheMan]

LeBron is a great passer, no doubt, but those that say Bird shouldn't be in this discussion obviously never watched Bird play, he saw the floor 1 or 2 moves before everyone...don't know if he was the greatest non-PG passer but he's defenitly in the discussion.

[KevinNYC]

I think the person who said Bird shouldn't be in the discussion is rating Bird well above this discussion. Like I said who is a better passer, me or Larry Bird? I don't deserve to be in the discussion.

[AlphaWolf24]

No.. but YOU might be...

Lebron career assist average: 7.0 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron highest assist average: 8.6 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron lowest assist average: 5.9 APG (highest in NBA history by a rookie non-PG)
Lebrons highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 11.4 APG (starting pointguard, 15 games)

Bird career assist average: 6.3 APG
Bird highest assist average: 7.6 APG
Bird lowest assist average: 4.5 APG
Birds highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 8.0 (15 games)


Lebron assist highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isKmafSafM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx8atwHxXM

Bird assist highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPMMO7xiLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOYrZhFOGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk1O0DqxQk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCv8OjCTQY



As you can see...... one thing is damn sure.... Larry Bird was NOT a better passer than Lebron... you could maybe, arguably get away with saying he is right up there with Lebron... but better? No.... these two are clearly the best passing non-PGs in NBA history....... but if there is an edge it goes to Lebron.... that is something you will have to learn to accept old timer...


more reason's not to use stats....

IMO Magic was a better passer then Stockton...but stats say other wise...

I always thought of Bird as teh 2nd greatest passer I ever seen....but stats say Lebron (who is a great passer)>Bird...

IDK:confusedshrug: ..it seemed that Bird and Magic knew how to create a great play by using every off the dribble or without the ball move...then find a open man while his teamate was in a position to score...

Lebron seems to draw so much attention that he can see the open man very easily....

[Asukal]

Highly debatable, I'd choose Jordan but stats would favor Lebron and I won't argue much against it. My only reason for picking Jordan is I believe he couldve been Big O the 2nd if he played PG his entire career. :cheers:

[Da_Realist]

LeBron is a great passer, no doubt, but those that say Bird shouldn't be in this discussion obviously never watched Bird play, he saw the floor 1 or 2 moves before everyone...don't know if he was the greatest non-PG passer but he's defenitly in the discussion.


>>>
I think the person who said Bird shouldn't be in the discussion is rating Bird well above this discussion. Like I said who is a better passer, me or Larry Bird? I don't deserve to be in the discussion.

This is exactly right. Thanks Kevin.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron isnt close enough to Bird as a passer to justify discussing which of them is better. The assists are irrelevant. Bird is one of a short list of people who have to come up when talking best passer ever....period. Regardless of position. Lebron is not. Not to me at least. Im sure someone somewhere thinks otherwise.

But someone somewhere thinks everything.

Lebron isnt as good a passer as Mark Jackson or....Rod Strickland. Forget Bird/Magic types.

[ILLsmak]

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bron-bosh.gif

You know he did that on purpose; there's just no way.

-Smak

[Lebron23]

Air James.

But sometimes I wish LeBron become a score first, and pass later type of player in the playoffs.

He's a dangerous threat when he concentrates on his scoring.

[The Iron Fist]

Lebron... and this comes from a super biased Jordan fan that have seen most of his games...

only a Lebron hater would say differently...

Lebron has better court vision & passing ability than Jordan... is also more unselfish than him...

Not just that... but Lebron is the best passing non-PG in NBA history... the only other guy that gets close is Larry Bird..
You're 15 years old. You seen none of his career live. Watching youtube highlights doesn't count as "have seen most of his games".

[jstern]

After reading most of this thread and watching this video, I've come to the conclusion that in terms of passing Bird > Lebron & Jordan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziM3HHFk1BM

Bird was a little before my time, so I've tried to study his game out of curiosity of why so many people think he was so great, and what I got from him is that he's really good at creating something out of nothing. Just stuff that nobody sees but he somehow sees. It's too bad that his physical appearance is going to lower his ranking as time goes by. That's just my assumption of Bird, which could be wrong since he's before my time.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bird is in a completely different class than either as a passer, how can anyone even involve him in this? :facepalm It's not a stretch at all to say that Bird was one of the 2 best passers of the 80's along with Magic. Not sure where he'd rank all time, but my guess is you'll see him on quite a few top 5 or at least top 10 passer lists.

As a pure playmaker, Lebron closes the gap somewhat due to his superior ball handling ability and quickness off the dribble, but it's still not a debate.

Bird was less ball dominant(as was the style during the 80's), his team featured McHale a lot in the post, as well as a Parish and DJ was a very good point guard himself who handled the ball quite a bit. Bird also didn't take the ball up often, like Lebron does far more frequently. Bird did run screen rolls with Parish frequently, but in general wasn't in as many opportunities for assists.

I can't believe some have such little understanding of the game that they turn to assist numbers. Shouldn't it be common knowledge that assist numbers(and numbers in general) depend heavily on your role and the offense you play in?

Just look at Jordan, he wasn't a worse passer after '89. But the offense changed dramatically once Phil took over with Jordan playing off the ball a lot more, and being less ball dominant, making quicker decisions when he did look for his shots. And it was far less frequent that Jordan would work for his ideal shot, and that was necessary for the team to win with the triangle. The triangle wouldn't work otherwise, which isn't to say that they didn't go away from it sometimes and have Jordan iso, because they did, but it was far less frequent, and he wasn't in the PG role he was later in the '89 season.

But I'd say that his impact on his teammates was greater in '90, '91, '92 ect. than '89 despite the assist numbers. He didn't magically lose his passing ability during the second 3peat either when his assist numbers were lower than his first Wizard season.

The way the triangle worked, especially as they got more comfortable with it was to have Jordan as more of a forward in the offense, with Pippen as one of the 2 guards. This was especially true in the second half of the '91 season and into the '91 playoffs as Pippen was really evolving into that point forward role.

If you're going to look at numbers(and I really suggest you watch the games), then the assist numbers MJ put up in the '91 playoffs were far more impressive for this reason because they were running an offense that got everyone involved more and Pippen was doing a lot of the ball handling, yet MJ was at 8+ apg for the playoffs.

Even if you were too young to have watched basketball in '91 or not interested in the sport at the time, there's no excuse not to watch these games if you're going to talk about them. Almost every game from the playoff run and a ridiculous amount of '91 games are up on Da Realist's channels and even the 2 playoff games that aren't on youtube(game 3 vs Knicks and game 3 vs Sixers) can be found if you look for them, especially since I have them on DVD.

But as far as the original question, this is a legitimate debate, unlike Bird vs either as a passer. I'll give Lebron the edge. I think he's among the best passers in the game today. Probably behind only Nash, Kidd, Paul and perhaps Rondo.

This aspect of the game comes a little more natural to him than Jordan, imo. Wasn't his team 11-0 without Mo Williams in '10? Jordan's team actually had a much better record with him at SG than PG in '89, so I don't think posting the stats from that stretch proves anything.

But Jordan is a scorer first, while I think Lebron has more of a point guard's mentality, though a problem is that he's never been in a position to one over the other, and part of that is his fault. In Cleveland, he had to be both out of necessity, but now in Miami with Wade, he does have the option of doing either, but he can struggle to find the balance.

[Micku]

LeBron James is a better passer. Jordan was a very good passer, and that aspect of Jordan's game might be his most underrated or ppl don't really talk about it as much. But I think LeBron James is more natural and have more of a passing instinct than Jordan.

But the Bird vs LeBron passing deal is a entirely different topic. They are probably the best non passing guard, so it's interesting. I think LBJ is probably the better creator, but Bird might be the better passer. Bird sees things that other players don't and Bird didn't control the ball as much as LBJ. But it's a good topic to discuss and deserves it's own thread.

[jstern]

Bird is in a completely different class than either as a passer, how can anyone even involve him in this? :facepalm It's not a stretch at all to say that Bird was one of the 2 best passers of the 80's along with Magic. Not sure where he'd rank all time, but my guess is you'll see him on quite a few top 5 or at least top 10 passer lists.

As a pure playmaker, Lebron closes the gap somewhat due to his superior ball handling ability and quickness off the dribble, but it's still not a debate.

Bird was less ball dominant(as was the style during the 80's), his team featured McHale a lot in the post, as well as a Parish and DJ was a very good point guard himself who handled the ball quite a bit. Bird also didn't take the ball up often, like Lebron does far more frequently. Bird did run screen rolls with Parish frequently, but in general wasn't in as many opportunities for assists.

I can't believe some have such little understanding of the game that they turn to assist numbers. Shouldn't it be common knowledge that assist numbers(and numbers in general) depend heavily on your role and the offense you play in?

Just look at Jordan, he wasn't a worse passer after '89. But the offense changed dramatically once Phil took over with Jordan playing off the ball a lot more, and being less ball dominant, making quicker decisions when he did look for his shots. And it was far less frequent that Jordan would work for his ideal shot, and that was necessary for the team to win with the triangle. The triangle wouldn't work otherwise, which isn't to say that they didn't go away from it sometimes and have Jordan iso, because they did, but it was far less frequent, and he wasn't in the PG role he was later in the '89 season.

But I'd say that his impact on his teammates was greater in '90, '91, '92 ect. than '89 despite the assist numbers. He didn't magically lose his passing ability during the second 3peat either when his assist numbers were lower than his first Wizard season.

The way the triangle worked, especially as they got more comfortable with it was to have Jordan as more of a forward in the offense, with Pippen as one of the 2 guards. This was especially true in the second half of the '91 season and into the '91 playoffs as Pippen was really evolving into that point forward role.

If you're going to look at numbers(and I really suggest you watch the games), then the assist numbers MJ put up in the '91 playoffs were far more impressive for this reason because they were running an offense that got everyone involved more and Pippen was doing a lot of the ball handling, yet MJ was at 8+ apg for the playoffs.

Even if you were too young to have watched basketball in '91 or not interested in the sport at the time, there's no excuse not to watch these games if you're going to talk about them. Almost every game from the playoff run and a ridiculous amount of '91 games are up on Da Realist's channels and even the 2 playoff games that aren't on youtube(game 3 vs Knicks and game 3 vs Sixers) can be found if you look for them, especially since I have them on DVD.

But as far as the original question, this is a legitimate debate, unlike Bird vs either as a passer. I'll give Lebron the edge. I think he's among the best passers in the game today. Probably behind only Nash, Kidd, Paul and perhaps Rondo.

This aspect of the game comes a little more natural to him than Jordan, imo. Wasn't his team 11-0 without Mo Williams in '10? Jordan's team actually had a much better record with him at SG than PG in '89, so I don't think posting the stats from that stretch proves anything.

But Jordan is a scorer first, while I think Lebron has more of a point guard's mentality, though a problem is that he's never been in a position to one over the other, and part of that is his fault. In Cleveland, he had to be both out of necessity, but now in Miami with Wade, he does have the option of doing either, but he can struggle to find the balance.
Good analysis.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Lebron isnt close enough to Bird as a passer to justify discussing which of them is better. The assists are irrelevant. Bird is one of a short list of people who have to come up when talking best passer ever....period. Regardless of position. Lebron is not. Not to me at least. Im sure someone somewhere thinks otherwise.

But someone somewhere thinks everything.

Lebron isnt as good a passer as Mark Jackson or....Rod Strickland. Forget Bird/Magic types.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20Crazy%20Shot/PutBack/0n%20Missing%20FT/crazyrodstrickland.gif


Air James.



air james (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i--mrQzEl14)

[Bigsmoke]

where Bird came from?

[Kyle_korver]

No.. but YOU might be...

Lebron career assist average: 7.0 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron highest assist average: 8.6 APG (highest in NBA history by a non-PG)
Lebron lowest assist average: 5.9 APG (highest in NBA history by a rookie non-PG)
Lebrons highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 11.4 APG (starting pointguard, 15 games)

Bird career assist average: 6.3 APG
Bird highest assist average: 7.6 APG
Bird lowest assist average: 4.5 APG
Birds highest assist streak average of at least 15 games: 8.0 (15 games)


Lebron assist highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isKmafSafM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx8atwHxXM

Bird assist highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPMMO7xiLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOYrZhFOGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk1O0DqxQk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCv8OjCTQY



As you can see...... one thing is damn sure.... Larry Bird was NOT a better passer than Lebron... you could maybe, arguably get away with saying he is right up there with Lebron... but better? No.... these two are clearly the best passing non-PGs in NBA history....... but if there is an edge it goes to Lebron.... that is something you will have to learn to accept old timer...
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[TheFan]

its simple, Bron is taller, better court vision... Bron passing is on par with MJohnson.

[Dave3]

Assists is no more of an indication of a players passing ability than FG% is on a players scoring. You don't think jordan could go to the top of the three and drive and kick to an open man? Come on. You think lebron james would be able to avg even 6 assists per game in an offense like the triangle? Stop looking solely at statistics
Kobe averaged 5-6 apg in the triangle throughout his career. Is LeBron not a better passer than Kobe?

I do agree though that apg isn't passing skill. Apg is your tendency to either make a play, or make the right pass, but not your actual ability to pass. When it comes to ability to pass though, LeBron is actually excellent, regardless of apg numbers. Left handed swing passes across the court right into the shooter's pocket, look aways, no looks, bounce passes perfectly to big men inside (getting through all of the traffic in the paint) and bullet passes through entire defenses in the rhythm of the dribble without giving it away before the pass. I can't comment on LeBron vs. Jordan, but I can definitely comment on LeBron's passing skills, and they're not overrated by anyone who thinks they're on the level of a very good point guard.

[andgar923]

Michael Jordan. Lebron is probably the most overrated playmaker/passer/facilitator ever. Lebron is a very slow decision maker and playmaker. It seems like he just finds and passes it to the obvious open man like the open man that almost everyone can already see. I have never been wowed by Lebron's passing skills which is why I think anyone that compares him to Magic don't have a clue about what they're talking about.


I can almost guarantee you most people wouldn't be saying Lebron if he didn't average more assists. Just because one player averages more assists than the other doesn't mean he was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator and I hope people understand that.

I understand why people take Lebron, it's just for a terrible reason.

I agree with the red part, the rest not so much.

Bron simply isn't as quick and reacting as MJ.

Yes, when we compare him to other non pgs he appears to be that way, but he simply seems to hold the ball for too long at times, at least when compared to MJ.

Obviously, both of them have great court vision and can execute, making an array of passes.

But MJ was and will always have the edge on the IQ department and speed in which he executes and makes the decision.

Another thing worth considering is how the floor is spread out more today than it was back then. The court wasn't as open back then and players were shifting and moving far more, which imo made MJ's reaction and pinpoint passing better. I watch Bron dribble, dribble, dribble and then finally make a pass even tho the floor is rather stagnant.

The translation of what constitutes an assist has also changed since MJ's time as well. Almost anything today is counted as an assist. I can pass somebody the ball, and they could take 2 dribbles make a head fake and I'll get the assist. Before the pass had to lead directly to a basket, and there was even a time when the rule stated only a one dribble was allowed for it to be an assist, even if it led directly to a basket.

[andgar923]

Something that I didn't expand on, is Bron tends to take more time deciding whether to pass or shoot.

It was clear during the Laker game, when he had the ball and there was times in which he wasn't sure whether to be an aggressive scorer or pass. MJ reacted immediately without much hesitation. Just look at that play vs Kobe:

He holds the ball, holds it, starts to dribble, dribble, dribble drives THEN dishes.

That play took forever to develop when he had a one on one coverage.

MJ would've immediately blown by Kobe or passed it to an open man.

But that's just one recent example. We see Bron hold the ball and look unsure of what to do, obviously, he thinks to pass first, but he has pressure to score, which is a reason why he takes long to make a decision and why he finds himself in traps far too often. A zone will never work against MJ... NEVER, because he'd make faster decision with the ball.

[bizil]

Both are great passers. Bron in my book is the best passer the SF has ever seen. MJ at the SG is arguably the greatest passer. But between the two, I would go with Bron as the better passer. Bron is capable of making the passes more on the level of the Magics, Stocktons, Nashs, Isiah's, etc. MJ could too, but I don't think he could do it time after time like Bron. I feel it's mainly due to MJ's killer instinct scoring the rock.

When MJ played PG, he did exceptional. But at the same time, I would rather have Magic as my PG over MJ. Cause Magic is more of a natural at it. Don't get it twisted though, MJ had better handles and defense than Magic. But let's remember that the ONLY position where there is a premium for great passing is PG. I feel at any other position, it's a bonus. But great scoring is a premium AT EVERY POSITION other than PG (where their is still somewhat a premium) Bron and MJ just happen to both be blessed to be excellent passers. Both are so blessed scoring, rebounding, and on defense that they would have been icons anyway. I do feel MJ is such a great passer that it takes guys like Bron, Magic, Nash, Bird, etc. to be better.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe averaged 5-6 apg in the triangle throughout his career. Is LeBron not a better passer than Kobe?

First off, MJ was averaging 6+ apg in the triangle pre-retirement. Secondly, he was doing that while NOT being the primary ballhandler/facilitator on the team, in contrast to Kobe. Jordan was playing alongside another 6-7 apg player and TWO other guys at 3.5-4+ apg and still posting 5.5-6.3 apg in the triangle. Kobe didn't play with even ONE player averaging even 4 apg most seasons in the triangle. Big difference.

Kobe's high apg in the triangle is actually 5.9 apg in 2003 (never averaged >5.5 apg in the triangle aside from that season), and that came alongside Shaq. If Jordan had a 27+ ppg/57%+ FG beast to throw it to, he'd be averaging 7.5+ apg every season pre-retirement. Real talk. Jordan had no one remotely as efficient and capable of creating/finishing shots as Shaq to throw the ball to.

At any rate, on topic, while Lebron might be a better passer than Jordan, the difference isn't large AT ALL, and people acting like it is are kidding themselves, or have never seen '89-'93 Jordan. Go watch the 1990 ECF, 1991 Finals, 1992 Dream Team games (where Jordan was the best passer on the floor - that is, was the player throwing the best passes most frequently), or 1993 series vs. NY for evidence of MJ's passing ability. I do think, as others have noted, that Lebron is a more WILLING passer. His vision might also be a bit better due to his size. But I don't think Lebron has any more technical skill than MJ did as a passer with both hands (in most respects) - Jordan and Lebron can both fire lasers from 25 feet out to cutters under the basket off the dribble with either hand while not touching the ball with their other hand, could make shovel passes to trailers with either hand etc. MJ was definitely a better interior passer (off penetration or post-ups) and imo is a top 2 wing outlet passer in history (this goes COMPLETELY overlooked about Jordan; the only wing player I'd have above him in this area is Bird, who is one of the best outlet passers ever bar none). Lebron is, imo, a better bounce-passer than MJ.

Using apg numbers as evidence in favor of Lebron is a joke imo, because Jordan literally NEVER had the ball in his hands even half as much as '06-'10 Lebron save for a 25 game stretch at the end of the 1989 season (during which he averaged 11.4 apg). Lebron's ball dominance and style of play in Cleveland is what produced his gaudy assist numbers. Playing Jordan's style, or playing in a more equal opportunity offense, he would average 6-7 apg, not 8+ apg. Here was basically every play for the Cavs from '06-'10:

1) Lebron brings the ball up and initiates a high pick and roll; Lebron passes it to the roller, but he's defended well, so he kicks it to the corner, and that player kicks it back out to Lebron to reset.

2) Lebron initiates another pick and roll, drives off of it drawing defenders, and kicks it to the opposite corner for a 3. One of two things happens here: he makes/misses the 3 or passes it and they reset again by giving the ball to Lebron.

3) Lebron will then either use another P&R (same scenarios as above) or drive and kick, or create a shot for himself.

In short, Lebron was involved in MULTIPLE assist-generating scenarios every time down the floor. Jordan, at best, would be involved in ONE, MAYBE two such situations on one possession in rare cases. Jordan's style was completely different from Lebron's, and all anyone has to do to see that is watch '90-'93 MJ and then '06-'10 Lebron side by side. A LARGE part of that difference is how coaching and the game has changed from the mid-80's to the mid-late 00's in terms of the latitude coaches give superstar players, and how much they allow an offense to revolve around them. '89-'92 Jordan in '06-'10 Lebron's role averages 8+ apg annually, if not 9+ apg. I firmly believe that. Yes, MJ would average equal/more apg than Bron in the same situation, and it's not necessarily because he's a better passer (as I said, Lebron probably is, though the difference isn't large at all), but because he was (imo) pretty clearly a better playmaker since he could get into the lane easier, and get past his man easier, which draws defenders and distorts defenses.

Honestly, people need to look at the passes MJ was making in the series/games I mentioned before weighing in.


Bird is in a completely different class than either as a passer, how can anyone even involve him in this? :facepalm It's not a stretch at all to say that Bird was one of the 2 best passers of the 80's along with Magic. Not sure where he'd rank all time, but my guess is you'll see him on quite a few top 5 or at least top 10 passer lists.

As a pure playmaker, Lebron closes the gap somewhat due to his superior ball handling ability and quickness off the dribble, but it's still not a debate.

Bird was less ball dominant(as was the style during the 80's), his team featured McHale a lot in the post, as well as a Parish and DJ was a very good point guard himself who handled the ball quite a bit. Bird also didn't take the ball up often, like Lebron does far more frequently. Bird did run screen rolls with Parish frequently, but in general wasn't in as many opportunities for assists.

I can't believe some have such little understanding of the game that they turn to assist numbers. Shouldn't it be common knowledge that assist numbers(and numbers in general) depend heavily on your role and the offense you play in?

Just look at Jordan, he wasn't a worse passer after '89. But the offense changed dramatically once Phil took over with Jordan playing off the ball a lot more, and being less ball dominant, making quicker decisions when he did look for his shots. And it was far less frequent that Jordan would work for his ideal shot, and that was necessary for the team to win with the triangle. The triangle wouldn't work otherwise, which isn't to say that they didn't go away from it sometimes and have Jordan iso, because they did, but it was far less frequent, and he wasn't in the PG role he was later in the '89 season.

But I'd say that his impact on his teammates was greater in '90, '91, '92 ect. than '89 despite the assist numbers. He didn't magically lose his passing ability during the second 3peat either when his assist numbers were lower than his first Wizard season.

The way the triangle worked, especially as they got more comfortable with it was to have Jordan as more of a forward in the offense, with Pippen as one of the 2 guards. This was especially true in the second half of the '91 season and into the '91 playoffs as Pippen was really evolving into that point forward role.

If you're going to look at numbers(and I really suggest you watch the games), then the assist numbers MJ put up in the '91 playoffs were far more impressive for this reason because they were running an offense that got everyone involved more and Pippen was doing a lot of the ball handling, yet MJ was at 8+ apg for the playoffs.

Even if you were too young to have watched basketball in '91 or not interested in the sport at the time, there's no excuse not to watch these games if you're going to talk about them. Almost every game from the playoff run and a ridiculous amount of '91 games are up on Da Realist's channels and even the 2 playoff games that aren't on youtube(game 3 vs Knicks and game 3 vs Sixers) can be found if you look for them, especially since I have them on DVD.

But as far as the original question, this is a legitimate debate, unlike Bird vs either as a passer. I'll give Lebron the edge. I think he's among the best passers in the game today. Probably behind only Nash, Kidd, Paul and perhaps Rondo.

This aspect of the game comes a little more natural to him than Jordan, imo. Wasn't his team 11-0 without Mo Williams in '10? Jordan's team actually had a much better record with him at SG than PG in '89, so I don't think posting the stats from that stretch proves anything.

But Jordan is a scorer first, while I think Lebron has more of a point guard's mentality, though a problem is that he's never been in a position to one over the other, and part of that is his fault. In Cleveland, he had to be both out of necessity, but now in Miami with Wade, he does have the option of doing either, but he can struggle to find the balance.

Great post.

[Indian guy]

MJ was a great passer, LeBron's greater. LeBron's ball-dominance as a Cavalier, especially after Mo's arrival, is also greatly exaggerated. Just look at him now. He's had no trouble averaging 7-8 apg as a Heat while sharing the ball with a superstar in Wade, this despite being a far cry from the penetrator he once was.

If put in similar roles, LeBron will always more apg than MJ. Partly because he's the better passer, and partly because MJ's the superior shot creator, and would get himself in situations where he has to pass less than LeBron.

[BIZARRO]

It looks like many of you didn't see MJ play in his prime. It is common now to say, "he was a good, not great passer, etc.". That is now what people for whatever reason accept more often than not. And it couldn't be farther from the truth.
I saw every game the guy played except for like 10 at the most. The only passer I would put over him is Magic.
Bird, maybe. But MJ could just make passes better on the move, from different angles, body positions, through traffic while contorting, quicker through the extreme size of his hands.
And Bird is my second favorite player ever too.

From non-point guard passers I have seen, here's how I would rank them:

1. Magic

2. Jordan
3. Bird

4. Lebron
5. Kobe

6. Pippen
7. Grant Hill
8. T-Mac

The quality of a player's judgement of when, how, and how safely, and effectively to pass also comes into high consideration for me as well. And MJ was just so incredibly solid and amazing pass after pass.

[bizil]

While we are on the subject of non PG passers, u can't forget Hondo or Rick Barry. Both I feel are in the top 10 in terms of non PG passers. And what about Jerry West? He played mainly SG in his career, even though he played plenty of PG. And u can't forget about Drexler and D Wade as well.

[pauk]

enough with the biasness....

if you watch the games you will clearly see that amongst the non-PGs Lebron & Bird had the best passing ability & court vision by far.... they had the ability to see a play before it draws up the best, they took a picture of the court and could just throw the ball behind their heads without even looking first and the ball lands right on the money... and had razor sharp lazer beam bullet speed & accuracy passes which allowed them to thread the needle left hand or right hand, to pass the ball thru ridicilous passing angles and ridicilously small tiny rooms or throw a ball from 90+ feet while falling out of bounds right on the money even tho of the margin of error...

Lebron & Bird were the most unselfish amongst the non-PGs aswell...

now.. if you watch the assists, Lebron rules this area amongst the non-PGs... with Bird being the 2nd.... Lebron gets more assists due to having better overall pointguard skills than Bird... which means Lebron is able to create passes/assists therefore more ways than Bird could........ mostly due to the ballhandling.... which was the reason to him being drafted PG in the first place and being hyped as "The Next Magic Johnson" before even coming to the NBA.... PG is still his 2ndary position today....

There is no denying this.... if there is an edge (there is, no matter how small it is)... it goes to LEBRON JAMES...

Triangle offense
Fastbreak offense
Halfcourt offense
Princeton offense
Whatever offense
Whatever position/role
LEBRON WILL GET ASSISTS MORE THAN ANY NON-PG.... AND IF YOU PLAY HIM AT PG... HE COULD ACTUALLY LEAD OR BE ONE OF THE TOP 2 LEADERS IN ASSISTS... DEPENDING ON HOW PASSIVE / SCORING AGRESSIVE HE IS.... HE HAS PROVED THIS WHEN STARTING PG...

[TheAdmiral3]

enough with the biasness....

if you watch the games you will clearly see that amongst the non-PGs Lebron & Bird had the best passing ability & court vision by far.... they had the ability to see a play before it draws up the best, they took a picture of the court and could just throw the ball behind their heads without even looking first and the ball lands right on the money... and had razor sharp lazer beam bullet speed & accuracy passes which allowed them to thread the needle, to pass the ball thru ridicilous passing angles and ridicilously small tiny rooms or throw a ball from 90+ feet while falling out of bounds right on the money even tho of the margin of error...

Lebron & Bird were the most unselfish amongst the non-PGs aswell...

now.. if you watch the assists, Lebron rules this area amongst the non-PGs... with Bird being the 2nd.... Lebron gets more assists due to having better overall pointguard skills than Bird... which means Lebron is able to create passes/assists therefore more ways than Bird could........

There is no denying this.... if there is an edge (there is, no matter how small it is)... it goes to LEBRON JAMES...
when will you understand nobody cares what you think?

[pauk]

when will you understand nobody cares what you think?

I dont mind if you care or not care what ME thinks........

But i mind if you care or dont care about FACTS........ anything what i say (which you dont care about) and anything i just said in that post (which you dont care about) is a post based on FACTS.......... which you dont care about obviously....

so if you dont care about factual statements... why even bother visiting this thread or this forum in first place?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron... and this comes from a super biased Jordan fan that have seen most of his games...

only a Lebron hater would say differently...

Lebron has better court vision & passing ability than Jordan... is also more unselfish than him...

Not just that... but Lebron is the best passing non-PG in NBA history... the only other guy that gets close is Larry Bird..
:oldlol:


its simple, Bron is taller, better court vision... Bron passing is on par with MJohnson.
:wtf:

[triangleoffense]

Jordan. What people don't understand is that Lebron is a PG just like Magic was a PG. Lebron looks to pass on more than 50% of his touches down the court. Jordan looks to pass maybe 25-30% of the time and that was during his 2nd three-peat stretch. In the one season that Jordan played PG, as the OP mentioned, he averaged I believe over 10 assists per game, shattering any single season assist totals that Lebron ever registered.

[pauk]

:oldlol:

Not sure if i understand your point?

I have 100s of his games mostly on xvid/divx and seen from streams (you wont believe what you can find on the internet)
I have many of his games on DVD aswell (using http://www.pontel.com/)
I was able to catch/record many of his games live in the mid to late 90s aswell...

Jordan was a great passer... but Lebron is better... dont get me wrong, i mean Jordan was still a much better passer than the likes of Kobe and any SG today...

[Heavincent]

enough with the biasness....


This is ****ing hilarious coming from you. You're like one of the most biased posters here. And don't give that "I'm only FACT biased bla bla bla" bullshit.

[Jotaro Durant]

Not sure if i understand your point?

I have 100s of his games mostly on xvid/divx and seen from streams (you wont believe what you can find on the internet)
I have many of his games on DVD aswell (using http://www.pontel.com/)
I was able to catch/record many of his games live in the mid to late 90s aswell...

Jordan was a great passer... but Lebron is better... dont get me wrong.. Jordan is still a much better passer than the likes of Kobe...

:roll: :oldlol: :lol

:violin:

[Heavincent]

dont get me wrong, i mean Jordan was still a much better passer than the likes of Kobe and any SG today...

You obviously haven't ever watched Kobe. Kobe is a fantastic passer.

[Dave3]

First off, MJ was averaging 6+ apg in the triangle pre-retirement. Secondly, he was doing that while NOT being the primary ballhandler/facilitator on the team, in contrast to Kobe. Jordan was playing alongside another 6-7 apg player and TWO other guys at 3.5-4+ apg and still posting 5.5-6.3 apg in the triangle. Kobe didn't play with even ONE player averaging even 4 apg most seasons in the triangle. Big difference.

Kobe's high apg in the triangle is actually 5.9 apg in 2003 (never averaged >5.5 apg in the triangle aside from that season), and that came alongside Shaq. If Jordan had a 27+ ppg/57%+ FG beast to throw it to, he'd be averaging 7.5+ apg every season pre-retirement. Real talk. Jordan had no one remotely as efficient and capable of creating/finishing shots as Shaq to throw the ball to.

At any rate, on topic, while Lebron might be a better passer than Jordan, the difference isn't large AT ALL, and people acting like it is are kidding themselves, or have never seen '89-'93 Jordan. Go watch the 1990 ECF, 1991 Finals, 1992 Dream Team games (where Jordan was the best passer on the floor - that is, was the player throwing the best passes most frequently), or 1993 series vs. NY for evidence of MJ's passing ability. I do think, as others have noted, that Lebron is a more WILLING passer. His vision might also be a bit better due to his size. But I don't think Lebron has any more technical skill than MJ did as a passer with both hands (in most respects) - Jordan and Lebron can both fire lasers from 25 feet out to cutters under the basket off the dribble with either hand while not touching the ball with their other hand, could make shovel passes to trailers with either hand etc. MJ was definitely a better interior passer (off penetration or post-ups) and imo is a top 2 wing outlet passer in history (this goes COMPLETELY overlooked about Jordan; the only wing player I'd have above him in this area is Bird, who is one of the best outlet passers ever bar none). Lebron is, imo, a better bounce-passer than MJ.

Using apg numbers as evidence in favor of Lebron is a joke imo, because Jordan literally NEVER had the ball in his hands even half as much as '06-'10 Lebron save for a 25 game stretch at the end of the 1989 season (during which he averaged 11.4 apg). Lebron's ball dominance and style of play in Cleveland is what produced his gaudy assist numbers. Playing Jordan's style, or playing in a more equal opportunity offense, he would average 6-7 apg, not 8+ apg. Here was basically every play for the Cavs from '06-'10:

1) Lebron brings the ball up and initiates a high pick and roll; Lebron passes it to the roller, but he's defended well, so he kicks it to the corner, and that player kicks it back out to Lebron to reset.

2) Lebron initiates another pick and roll, drives off of it drawing defenders, and kicks it to the opposite corner for a 3. One of two things happens here: he makes/misses the 3 or passes it and they reset again by giving the ball to Lebron.

3) Lebron will then either use another P&R (same scenarios as above) or drive and kick, or create a shot for himself.

In short, Lebron was involved in MULTIPLE assist-generating scenarios every time down the floor. Jordan, at best, would be involved in ONE, MAYBE two such situations on one possession in rare cases. Jordan's style was completely different from Lebron's, and all anyone has to do to see that is watch '90-'93 MJ and then '06-'10 Lebron side by side. A LARGE part of that difference is how coaching and the game has changed from the mid-80's to the mid-late 00's in terms of the latitude coaches give superstar players, and how much they allow an offense to revolve around them. '89-'92 Jordan in '06-'10 Lebron's role averages 8+ apg annually, if not 9+ apg. I firmly believe that. Yes, MJ would average equal/more apg than Bron in the same situation, and it's not necessarily because he's a better passer (as I said, Lebron probably is, though the difference isn't large at all), but because he was (imo) pretty clearly a better playmaker since he could get into the lane easier, and get past his man easier, which draws defenders and distorts defenses.

Honestly, people need to look at the passes MJ was making in the series/games I mentioned before weighing in.


I already said I never watched MJ so I can't (and didn't comment...) I just made the small point that apg isn't passing ability, and the triangle has allowed worse passers 6 apg as well.

[GS1905]

Most of lebron's passes are simply giving the ball to an open guy and praying that guy makes his shot. that's not what being a great passer is all about.

that's why i've always thought lebron's passing was overrated. his passing and court vision is good for a sf but considering he was actually drafted a pg and he has a point-forward type of game means his passing is actually average at best.

and saying lebron's passing and court vision is on par with magic is simply idiotic. lebron wasn't, isn't, and will never be as good as magic in terms of passing. it's that simple.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ was a great passer, LeBron's greater. LeBron's ball-dominance as a Cavalier, especially after Mo's arrival, is also greatly exaggerated. Just look at him now. He's had no trouble averaging 7-8 apg as a Heat while sharing the ball with a superstar in Wade, this despite being a far cry from the penetrator he once was.

If put in similar roles, LeBron will always more apg than MJ. Partly because he's the better passer, and partly because MJ's the superior shot creator, and would get himself in situations where he has to pass less than LeBron.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Lebron is STILL more ball dominant than '88-'93 Jordan was (save for that stretch in '89) AND that he's playing with two other legit superstars, making it far easier to rack up assists than Jordan playing with one superstar who wasn't even as good a scorer as Lebron's SECOND superstar?

Also, the numbers bear this out: Lebron averaged 6.5 apg last season, which is around what I speculated he'd average if placed in a more equal opportunity offense (which by necessity he has to be playing next to Wade and Bosh). This season he's averaging 7.6 apg, but that number is deceptive for two reasons:

1) He's only played 13 games. Small sample size.

2) Lebron has averaged 10 apg in the 4 games Wade has missed, since the offense has gone back to being Lebron-centric; this has inflated his averages. Meaning that he's averaged 6.6 apg in the games he's played with Wade. Which is exactly in line with what he averaged last season.

So yes, he is having trouble averaging 7-8 apg with Wade, considering that he's averaged ~6.5 apg (not 7-8 apg) in games he's played with Wade.

Keep in mind that Lebron is STILL more ball dominant than '90-'93 Jordan was, and is STILL not playing in an equal opportunity offense like the triangle. Like I said, he'd average ~6 apg if he were in MJ's exact situation, maybe 7 apg max. I stand by that, and the numbers bear that out. And again, it's not because MJ is necessarily an equal/better passer, but because whatever small advantage Lebron has a a passer is roughly offset by MJ's advantage as a playmaker. Let's also not forget MJ's ridiculously low TO rate (as compared to 99+% of star players all-time, not just compared to Lebron) when discussing who the better passer is.

And no, Lebron's ball dominance as a Cav is certainly NOT exaggerated. In the last 20 years, only Iverson even approached that level of ball dominance in terms of time of possession. Lebron had the ball in his hands for 10-15 seconds EVERY possession, and I wish to GOD that this stat was tracked so I had hard evidence. But anyone who watched him as a Cav knows this to be true. Just like anyone who watched '90-'93 MJ knows that he never had the ball in his hands NEARLY as much as Cavalier Lebron.

[97 bulls]

Why is magic even in the discussion? He's a PG.

I just don't see what so impressive about what james does. He doesn really run any offense, he doesn't really set his teammates up for easy shots. He just kicks out.

And larry bird? My god this man is overrated.

I think maybe people are mistaking passing with actually being able to run and offense. Going by the logic I've been reading in the thread, why isn't shaq in this conversation. He's just as adepth at finding cutters and the open man off the double team in the post, as james does from his drives to the basket

[97 bulls]

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Lebron is STILL more ball dominant than '88-'93 Jordan was (save for that stretch in '89) AND that he's playing with two other legit superstars, making it far easier to rack up assists than Jordan playing with one superstar who wasn't even as good a scorer as Lebron's SECOND superstar?

Also, the numbers bear this out: Lebron averaged 6.5 apg last season, which is around what I speculated he'd average if placed in a more equal opportunity offense (which by necessity he has to be playing next to Wade and Bosh). This season he's averaging 7.6 apg, but that number is deceptive for two reasons:

1) He's only played 13 games.

2) Lebron has averaged 10 apg in the 4 games Wade has missed, since the offense has gone back to being Lebron-centric; this has inflated his averages. Meaning that he's averaged 6.6 apg in the games he's played with Wade. Which is exactly in line with what he averaged last season.

Keep in mind that Lebron is STILL more ball dominant than '90-'93 Jordan was, and is STILL not playing in an equal opportunity offense like the triangle. Like I said, he'd average ~6 apg max if he were in MJ's exact situation, maybe 7 apg max. I stand by that, and the numbers bear that out.

And no, Lebron's ball dominance as a Cav is certainly NOT exaggerated. In the last 20 years, only Iverson even approached that level of ball dominance in terms of time of possession. Lebron had the ball in his hands for 10-15 seconds EVERY possession, and I wish to GOD that this stat was tracked so I had hard evidence. But anyone who watched him as a Cav knows this to be true. Just like anyone who watched '90-'93 MJ knows that he never had the ball in his hands NEARLY as much as Cavalier Lebron.
So true. I'm watching the heat/lakers replay game on nba tv right now. Almost every play the heat have run in the half court involves james comming of a pick and roll and allowing the defense to dictate his decision. What james is is a 6'8 forward with the ball-handling skills of a PG. And he's a willing passer.

[NumberSix]

Michael Jordan. Lebron is probably the most overrated playmaker/passer/facilitator ever. Lebron is a very slow decision maker and playmaker. It seems like he just finds and passes it to the obvious open man like the open man that almost everyone can already see. I have never been wowed by Lebron's passing skills which is why I think anyone that compares him to Magic don't have a clue about what they're talking about.


I can almost guarantee you most people wouldn't be saying Lebron if he didn't average more assists. Just because one player averages more assists than the other doesn't mean he was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator and I hope people understand that.

I understand why people take Lebron, it's just for a terrible reason.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong about everything? Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen you say anything that was right.:confusedshrug:

[StateOfMind12]

I agree with the red part, the rest not so much.

Bron simply isn't as quick and reacting as MJ.

Yes, when we compare him to other non pgs he appears to be that way, but he simply seems to hold the ball for too long at times, at least when compared to MJ.

Obviously, both of them have great court vision and can execute, making an array of passes.

But MJ was and will always have the edge on the IQ department and speed in which he executes and makes the decision.

Another thing worth considering is how the floor is spread out more today than it was back then. The court wasn't as open back then and players were shifting and moving far more, which imo made MJ's reaction and pinpoint passing better. I watch Bron dribble, dribble, dribble and then finally make a pass even tho the floor is rather stagnant.

The translation of what constitutes an assist has also changed since MJ's time as well. Almost anything today is counted as an assist. I can pass somebody the ball, and they could take 2 dribbles make a head fake and I'll get the assist. Before the pass had to lead directly to a basket, and there was even a time when the rule stated only a one dribble was allowed for it to be an assist, even if it led directly to a basket.
:applause: Well said. I think in terms of ability MJ was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator than Lebron. If there is any reason why Lebron was a better passer than MJ it was because he was more willing to pass.

Lebron is quite possibly the most overrated passer/playmaker/facilitator ever. People make some ridiculously claims like he is the best passing non-PG ever, he is a top 5 passer/playmaker today, and the list goes on.

I have no issue if one guy wanted to say Lebron was the best passing non-PG in today's league, I might actually agree. I do think people who think he is a top 5 passer/playmaker today are kidding themselves though cause he is not.

Here are PGs that are clearly better than Lebron at playmaking/passing

Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose
Ricky Rubio
Kyle Lowry

These PGs are CLEARLY better than Lebron at that aspect.

[97 bulls]

:applause: Well said. I think in terms of ability MJ was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator than Lebron. If there is any reason why Lebron was a better passer than MJ it was because he was more willing to pass.

Lebron is quite possibly the most overrated passer/playmaker/facilitator ever. People make some ridiculously claims like he is the best passing non-PG ever, he is a top 5 passer/playmaker today, and the list goes on.

I have no issue if one guy wanted to say Lebron was the best passing non-PG in today's league, I might actually agree. I do think people who think he is a top 5 passer/playmaker today are kidding themselves though cause he is not.

Here are PGs that are clearly better than Lebron at playmaking/passing

Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose
Ricky Rubio
Kyle Lowry

These PGs are CLEARLY better than Lebron at that aspect.
Id go so far as to say that andre iguodala is at least on par with james as a non-pg passer

[OldSchoolBBall]

Id go so far as to say that andre iguodala is at least on par with james as a non-pg passer

That's absurd.

[Jotaro Durant]

Id go so far as to say that andre iguodala is at least on par with james as a non-pg passer

:roll:

:hammerhead:

[StateOfMind12]

Id go so far as to say that andre iguodala is at least on par with james as a non-pg passer
I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't have an issue saying that his teammate Dwyane Wade is a better playmaker than Lebron is though. I don't know if Wade is a better passer than Lebron is but I think Wade might be a better playmaker.

[Lebron23]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong about everything? Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen you say anything that was right.:confusedshrug:


:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[jlip]

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Lebron is STILL more ball dominant than '88-'93 Jordan was (save for that stretch in '89) AND that he's playing with two other legit superstars, making it far easier to rack up assists than Jordan playing with one superstar who wasn't even as good a scorer as Lebron's SECOND superstar?

Also, the numbers bear this out: Lebron averaged 6.5 apg last season, which is around what I speculated he'd average if placed in a more equal opportunity offense (which by necessity he has to be playing next to Wade and Bosh). This season he's averaging 7.6 apg, but that number is deceptive for two reasons:

1) He's only played 13 games. Small sample size.

2) Lebron has averaged 10 apg in the 4 games Wade has missed, since the offense has gone back to being Lebron-centric; this has inflated his averages. Meaning that he's averaged 6.6 apg in the games he's played with Wade. Which is exactly in line with what he averaged last season.

So yes, he is having trouble averaging 7-8 apg with Wade, considering that he's averaged ~6.5 apg (not 7-8 apg) in games he's played with Wade.


@ the bold parts...
Playing with "superstars" doesn't necessarily make it easier to achieve assists, especially if those superstars such as Wade don't excel at playing off the ball and tend to create shots for themselves.

Next, unless I'm missing something, there is a serious contradiction in your post. According to you, having two superstars supposedly makes "it far easier (for Lebron) to rack up assists than Jordan", but in the very next paragraph you imply that playing with two superstars creates a more "equal opportunity offense" supposedly limiting his assist numbers. Which one is it? Does playing with 2 superstars make it easier to achieve assists? Or...Does playing with superstars limit the opportunities for Lebron to be "ball dominant" enough to achieve those assists? Can't have both.

Finally, again you say as I bolded...

"Also, the numbers bear this out: Lebron averaged 6.5 apg last season, which is around what I speculated he'd average if placed in a more equal opportunity offense"

Lebron did not average 6.5apg last season. He averaged 7.0apg. So, the numbers don't bear out anything that you predicted. He had absolutely no problem averaging 7 apg as Indian Guy said, playing with a player who was probably as ball dominant as he was, and while playing what was then the 2nd fewest minutes per game of his career.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron did not average 6.5apg last season. He averaged 7.0apg. So, the numbers don't bear out anything that you predicted. He had absolutely no problem averaging 7 apg as Indian Guy said, playing with a player who was probably as ball dominant as he was, and while playing what was then the 2nd fewest minutes per game of his career.

First off, I was mistakenly looking at his per36 numbers for last year. My bad. Second, 7.0 is not 8.6 or whatever the hell he was averaging in Cleveland (nor is it 7-8 apg as Indian Guy said). And lastly, yes, playing with stars who can finish/make shots helps you rack up assists. This is, to some extent, offset by having to share the ball with said stars in a more equal opportunity offense. That said, Lebron still has the ball in his hands more than '90-'93 Jordan in terms of time of possession, so my point stands.

Anyone REALLY believe that Lebron would average > 6.5 apg on the '91-'93 Bulls playing Jordan's exact role on that exact same team with another 6-7 apg player and two players at ~4 apg, in the triangle? Highly doubtful. Highly.

[97 bulls]

First off, I was mistakenly looking at his per36 numbers for last year. My bad. Second, 7.0 is not 8.6 or whatever the hell he was averaging in Cleveland (nor is it 7-8 apg as Indian Guy said). And lastly, yes, playing with stars who can finish/make shots helps you rack up assists. This is, to some extent, offset by having to share the ball with said stars in a more equal opportunity offense. That said, Lebron still has the ball in his hands more than '90-'93 Jordan in terms of time of possession, so my point stands.

Anyone REALLY believe that Lebron would average > 6.5 apg on the '91-'93 Bulls playing Jordan's exact role on that exact same team with another 6-7 apg player and two players at ~4 apg, in the triangle? Highly doubtful. Highly.
He wouldn't. The reason jackson implemented the triangle offense was create an equal opportunity offense. James has never been in an offense remotly similar.

[97 bulls]

That's absurd.
Even if you disagree, its far from absurd. Iggy does an excellent job setting up his teammates. He's routinely one of the top non-pg players in assists

[Harison]

Lebron has more passing mentality, Jordan - scoring. Plus LBJ very often played in PG position, therefore his APG cant be directly compared to player from non-PG position. When MJ was playing PG, he literally averaged triple double for months.

Despite difference in mentality, I'm picking Jordan as a slightly better passer - he had instant decision making and very good court vision. MJs mind worked 3x faster (and thats conservative estimation), while watching Lebron you can almost see how cogs in his brains are grinding "to pass or not to pass?... or maybe drive?... I worked on a jumper, maybe use it?" :D Sometimes Lebron simply dribbles the ball out of time, its just weird.

In other words, if both MJ and Lebron would play in the PG position, rarely anyone would even question who is a better passer. I would comfortably pick MJ as a PG for my team.

P.S. Please dont bring Bird to this discussion, he was on a whole another level to both MJ and LBJ.

[nbaballllller]

Even if you disagree, its far from absurd. Iggy does an excellent job setting up his teammates. He's routinely one of the top non-pg players in assists

no its ***** absurd. its ridiculous. iggy as good a passer as bron?

seriously gtfo.

If you want to have an intelligent debate thats great. but to say complete rubbish like that....

jeez

[TheAdmiral3]

iggy is not just a better passer than lebron, he is a better player

[97 bulls]

no its ***** absurd. its ridiculous. iggy as good a passer as bron?

seriously gtfo.

If you want to have an intelligent debate thats great. but to say complete rubbish like that....

jeez
Ok. And if you want to have an intelligent debate, tell me why you disagree. Calling my opinion absurd is not intelligent.

[ralph_i_el]

Not just that... but Lebron is the best passing non-PG in NBA history... the only other guy that gets close is Larry Bird..

Lebron is the only one who comes close to BIRD

[bizil]

In terms of Bird, when it comes to a stationery position he's as good of a passer that's ever lived. But when u factor ball handling, running a fast break, etc. guys like Bron and MJ make up ground on Bird. An essential part of great PG play is running a great fast break. Which takes a certain pace, handle, and vision. Bird clearly had the vision, its the pace and handle that wasn't on the same level. Which is fine cause Bird is still a top 5-6 GOAT of all time. And in terms of flat passing vision is pretty much as good as it gets.

In terms of non passing PG's, u could have Bird, Bron, and MJ as the top three and I wouldn't complain one bit. All three have an argumentt as as the best. But MJ or a guy like Kobe for that matter had a certain killer instinct and pension for scoring. Bird had it as well, but I think even Bird was a more willing passer than MJ or Kobe. That's why Bird and Bron in a certain aspect see the game very similar in terms of passing. The difference is Bron's handle and pace. And also Bird's killer instinct scoring comes to the surface more devastating when the time is needed. But as MJ showed, he can be an excellent PG and run the show. I just think he puts the foot on the gas more when it comes to the scoring aspects.

[Indian guy]

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Lebron is STILL more ball dominant than '88-'93 Jordan

I'll concede 90-93, when MJ's role somewhat changed under Phil, but '88 and '89? Come on. MJ was getting the ball on practically every possession on those teams.


AND that he's playing with two other legit superstars

Bosh, superstar? He wasn't even an All Star last season!


making it far easier to rack up assists than Jordan playing with one superstar who wasn't even as good a scorer as Lebron's SECOND superstar?

I don't see why playing alongside Wade would help LeBron assists-wise. As a ball-dominant superstar himself, not only does Wade cut into half of LeBron's playmaking, but his entire offense is self-created. It's not like LeBron's handing it to him coming off curls or finding him spotting up behind the 3pt line. That's not Wade's game. He's a below average shooter whose game is built on slashing. He takes defensive attention away from LeBron, but sure as heck doesn't help him build up those assist numbers.


Also, the numbers bear this out: Lebron averaged 6.5 apg

You have already corrected this below, but does bear mentioning again - LeBron averaged 7 apg. That's a ridiculous number while playing alongside another ball-dominant superstar on a slow-paced team. If this isn't a testament to LeBron's high-apg not being predicated on ball-dominance, I don't know what is.


This season he's averaging 7.6 apg, but that number is deceptive for two reasons:

Given Miami's chemistry and far superior talent outside the big 3 this season, it wouldn't at all surprise me if LeBron maintains that average even after Wade returns.


and is STILL not playing in an equal opportunity offense like the triangle. Like I said, he'd average ~6 apg if he were in MJ's exact situation, maybe 7 apg max.

If LeBron could average 7 apg last season while sharing the ball with an equal(Wade) and another Top 25 player in Bosh, I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to average more than 7 apg on a 2-star team like the Bulls. LeBron's game, stylistically, is built on finding the open man. MJ's game was built on getting a shot off. They are just vastly different players. You're putting too much on ball dominance.


And no, Lebron's ball dominance as a Cav is certainly NOT exaggerated.

His ball dominance post-Mo Williams arrival absolutely is. I don't know how often you watched Cleveland in those days, but I watched every game. 'Mo was easily their primary playmaker on half their possessions. Easily. He doesn't average 5+ apg otherwise. Nor does Cleveland become one of the league's best offensive teams those 2 seasons. You don't achieve the sort of offensive success they did with an SF dominating the shot clock.