Is Jason Kidd a top 5 PG of all time?

[PTB Fan]

I think that player wise, he can be argued. However, he may never has the career to stack up against the likes of Isiah, Stockton, Frazier etc.

Bonus Question: Is he better than Thomas and Stockton?

I want to see your thoughts on this one. I can't explain.

Edit: Could you list your top 5 PG lists as well?

[StateOfMind12]

No.

Magic
Oscar
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton
Nash

are all better than him. You could argue Payton as well but I go back and fourth between Payton and Kidd.

[Yung D-Will]

Of course he has a case. After Magic,Isiah,Oscar and Isiah guys like Payton , Nash and Kidd can all make cases.

[PTB Fan]

No.

Magic
Oscar
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton
Nash

are all better than him. You could argue Payton as well but I go back and fourth between Payton and Kidd.

What are your arguments on Isiah and Stockton being better? I want to see some opinions, that's all.

[Heavincent]

Yes. A lot of things he does don't show up in the box score. He's a master at running and controlling the pace of an offense.

Also one of the best fast break players ever.

[PTB Fan]

Of course he has a case. After Magic,Isiah,Oscar and Isiah guys like Payton , Nash and Kidd can all make cases.

Magic and Oscar are pretty much #1 and #2 (some may argue vice versa) without a doubt. Then the rest is all debatable. What's your top 5?

[StateOfMind12]

What are your arguments on Isiah and Stockton being better? I want to see some opinions, that's all.
Isiah should be obvious, he won two championships and as the best player in those two. Isiah also won a Finals MVP in one of them. Isiah had a take over mentality that neither Stockton or Kidd had which is why he is better than both of them. He had a take over mentality similar to Jordan, Bird, Kobe, etc. Isiah is always near the top of the list when it comes to killer instinct.

Stockton was just a better player than Kidd. The only thing Kidd did better than Stockton was rebound and rebounding is one of the last things I am looking for in a PG. Stockton was a great shooter and super efficient while Kidd was pretty much the opposite. Teams would leave Kidd dead open for a reason and they called him Ason Kidd for a reason too.

Kidd pretty much has no argument over Stockton or Isiah. He does have a solid argument over Nash I guess but it's not an argument I agree with at all.

[wang4three]

I don't care that Nash is a two-time MVP, he's not better than Kidd. At the very least, not definitively.

[Yung D-Will]

I don't care that Nash is a two-time MVP, he's not better than Kidd. At the very least, not definitively.
He's the most efficent pg in history, by far the most 50/40/90 seasons out of any player(The only one with more than 1 besides Nash is Larry Bird) 13 seasons shooting at least 40% from three, 6 seasons shooting at least 50% from the filed and 2nd all time in free throw percent and only one of two people in history to have a percent above 90% for their career( I think:oldlol: ) and he's the best shooting pg of all time whiles being one of the top 4 players ever in terms of courtvision and passing ability( Along with Kidd) . He's a multiple time mvp whiles he constantly lead the suns to a top 3 offense nearly every year. Definitly has a case


That being said it goes like this for me.

Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Stockton/Fraizer
Kidd
Payton
Nash

[SacJB Shady]

Yea i think Kidd is a top 5 PG of all time.

[PTB Fan]

Isiah should be obvious, he won two championships and as the best player in those two. Isiah also won a Finals MVP in one of them. Isiah had a take over mentality that neither Stockton or Kidd had which is why he is better than both of them. He had a take over mentality similar to Jordan, Bird, Kobe, etc. Isiah is always near the top of the list when it comes to killer instinct.

Stockton was just a better player than Kidd. The only thing Kidd did better than Stockton was rebound and rebounding is one of the last things I am looking for in a PG. Stockton was a great shooter and super efficient while Kidd was pretty much the opposite. Teams would leave Kidd dead open for a reason and they called him Ason Kidd for a reason too.

Kidd pretty much has no argument over Stockton or Isiah. He does have a solid argument over Nash I guess but it's not an argument I agree with at all.

Thanks for the post. I appreciate this.

[FKAri]

Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Stockton/Fraizer
Kidd
Payton
Nash

:applause:

[Xiao Yao You]

Highly overrated in my mind. Not a highly intelligent player which you definitely need from your pg. The fact that he shot as much as he did when he couldn't shoot takes him out of any conversation as far as I'm concerned.

[Kiddlovesnets]

No.

Magic
Oscar
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton
Nash

are all better than him. You could argue Payton as well but I go back and fourth between Payton and Kidd.

Id agree with the top 5 but no way Nash is better than Kidd. In fact, Nash is NOT a top 10 PG of all time but you are ranking him at 6.
:facepalm

[Yung D-Will]

Id agree with the top 5 but no way Nash is better than Kidd. In fact, Nash is NOT a top 10 PG of all time but you are ranking him at 6.
:facepalm
You constantly told me Chris Paul is the best player in the leauge yet you're telling me Nash isn't a top 10 pg.
:rolleyes:

Clearly when it comes to judging pg's you fail

[Kiddlovesnets]

You constantly told me Chris Paul is the best player in the leauge yet you're telling me Nash isn't a top 10 pg.
:rolleyes:

Clearly when it comes to judging pg's you fail

Well then, lets list the PGs with clearly better careers than Steve Nash:

Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, John Stockton, Chris Paul, Walt Frazier, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Mark Jackson, Tim Hardaway

And then those who are close to Steve Nash:
Sam Cassell, Deron Williams, Penny Hardaway, Avery Johnson, Chauncey Billups

So yeah, Steve Nash is at best the 13th best PG of all time without a question. He has yet to surpass Suns all time great PG Kevin Johnson, who led the team to an NBA finals appearance only to lose to the Bulls led by the GOAT. A few years later Id see Deron Williams and Derrick Rose(maybe Rajon Rondo too if he wins another champ) surpassing Nash too, effectively dropping him to around 15th or below.

[JMT]

Kidd is generally underrated here imo. By product of never being a big scorer and younger posters not having seen him as a young, athletic player.

He's going to retire (presumably someday) Top 3 All Time in assists, steals, 3 pt FG made. Top 10 in minutes, Top 15 in games. Really good defender.

Top 25 in defensive rebounds ahead of guys like Dave Cowens, Chris Webber, Bob McAdoo, Dr J etc...(if he hangs around two more years he may catch Bird and DRob). Somewhere around 60th in total rebounds (more than Oscar, Pippen, McAdoo, Cunningham, Sheed).

Always loved the way he improved his game and reinvented himself as needed. Pretty bad FT shooter out of college; improved 10%+ to 80%. As his athleticism waned he saw he had to become a reliable 3 pt shooter. Did that.

I've got him ahead of Stockton. Same scoring #s though Stockton a far better shooter. Kidd a far better defender and rebounder. Did more with less as far as players around him.

Oscar
Magic
Isiah
Kidd
Stockton

is my list.

[JMT]

Highly overrated in my mind. Not a highly intelligent player which you definitely need from your pg.

:roll:

[Yung D-Will]

Well then, lets list the PGs with clearly better careers than Steve Nash:

Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, John Stockton, Chris Paul, Walt Frazier, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Mark Jackson, Tim Hardaway

And then those who are close to Steve Nash:
Sam Cassell, Deron Williams, Penny Hardaway, Avery Johnson, Chauncey Billups

So yeah, Steve Nash is at best the 13th best PG of all time without a question. He has yet to surpass Suns all time great PG Kevin Johnson, who led the team to an NBA finals appearance only to lose to the Bulls led by the GOAT. A few years later Id see Deron Williams and Derrick Rose(maybe Rajon Rondo too if he wins another champ) surpassing Nash too, effectively dropping him to around 15th or below.

What.

I must be getting trolled. Half of those players you've probally never even researched.

:wtf:

[Xiao Yao You]

Taking almost 1300 shots in a season while shooting 38% is not smart basketball.

[StateOfMind12]

Taking almost 1300 shots in a season while shooting 38% is not smart basketball.
You have to understand that he was wide open most of the time when he shot it. It's not like Kidd took heavily contested shots like you see Kobe Bryant take. Kidd pretty much always made the best decision when he took shots but he just wasn't very good at making the shot.

Decision making and intelligence was far from Kidd's problem at least in basketball. Kidd is pretty much an idiot and a douchebag outside of the court though.

[Legends66NBA7]

He can definitely be argued (I have him 6-7 spot)

My Top 5 would be:

Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Walt Fraizer

I could see the case (a small one) over Stockton and Fraizer.

[Xiao Yao You]

You have to understand that he was wide open most of the time when he shot it. It's not like Kidd took heavily contested shots like you see Kobe Bryant take. Kidd pretty much always made the best decision when he took shots but he just wasn't very good at making the shot.

Still makes him highly overrated. He's still left wide open now but he doesn't shoot as much.

[Whoah10115]

He is absolutely top 5 all-time and it's insulting to suggest otherwise.


Magic, Oscar, Isiah. Stockton should probably rank ahead, tho Jason Kidd might just be better. But he has to be ahead of Steve Nash and Gary Payton, as well as Walt Frazier, Tiny Archibald, Kevin Johnson, Bob Cousy.

[Jotaro Durant]

no doubt he is and much ebtter than nash

[LJJ]

Hmm. To me he is the best point guard of his generation and that should somewhat ensure he is at least arguable as a top 5.

15 years from now Nash will be regarded as the greatest point guard of his generation by consensus though.

[PTB Fan]

Well then, lets list the PGs with clearly better careers than Steve Nash:

Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, John Stockton, Chris Paul, Walt Frazier, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Mark Jackson, Tim Hardaway

Wow.. easy there J-Kidd fan. Steve Nash is better than the guys who are bolded. He's got a fair argument to be argued better than Payton, Kidd and possibly Cousy too.

He's not a slouch man. Nash's one of the greatest shooters, most efficient players, greatest playmakers and best offensive players of all time. He's also a 2x MVP (some players got robbed, but he played well to earn them) and his overall success isn't too bad.


And then those who are close to Steve Nash:
Sam Cassell, Deron Williams, Penny Hardaway, Avery Johnson, Chauncey Billups

No one from those guys mentioned are better than Nash career wise. There's a possibility that D-Will and CP3 (some day) could surpass him, but that will be tough.


So yeah, Steve Nash is at best the 13th best PG of all time without a question. He has yet to surpass Suns all time great PG Kevin Johnson, who led the team to an NBA finals appearance only to lose to the Bulls led by the GOAT. A few years later Id see Deron Williams and Derrick Rose(maybe Rajon Rondo too if he wins another champ) surpassing Nash too, effectively dropping him to around 15th or below.

Steve Nash is a top 10 PG at worst.

Kevin Johnson didn't lead the Suns to the Finals. It was Charles Barkley who did lead them. In fact, it was Charles who led the Suns to a winning record without KJ. And Kevin didn't play in the Finals either. Not to mention that he was all offense as well and Nash has him in all categories expect athleticism and slashing.

D-Will, Rose and Rondo could surpass him one day, but they would have to be really successful in order to do so. Time will tell.

[bizil]

Of course he has a case. After Magic,Isiah,Oscar and Isiah guys like Payton , Nash and Kidd can all make cases.

Great point! I think the GOAT 3 PG's are Magic, Big O, and Zeke. After that I usually have Frazier and Stockton round out a top 5 GOAT PG list. But as u stated, Payton, Nash, and Kidd all have a case to be in the top 5.

[StateOfMind12]

Still makes him highly overrated. He's still left wide open now but he doesn't shoot as much.
How does that make him overrated? You said he wasn't smart or wasn't a good decision maker. The fact is the shot Kidd took was usually a good shot, a good look, and probably the best shot available in that posession.

Intelligence and decision making =/ skill and talent.



I've got him ahead of Stockton. Same scoring #s though Stockton a far better shooter. Kidd a far better defender and rebounder. Did more with less as far as players around him.
.
Defense between Kidd and Stockton was about the same. Kidd was overrated defensively so I might give the edge to Stockton actually. Rebounding is irrelevant especially for a PG. Do you really care how well a PG rebounds? Is it really going to make you take one player over the other because of a PG's ability to rebound?

I would rather have my PG be efficient and be able to shoot efficiently than to be able to rebound.

[Xiao Yao You]

How does that make him overrated?

He couldn't shoot but shot a lot. Means he wasn't as great as advertised as far as I'm concerned. Triple double on 4-17 shooting. Woo Hoo!

[L.Kizzle]

I don't care that Nash is a two-time MVP, he's not better than Kidd. At the very least, not definitively.
Correct.

[Whoah10115]

Some of the stupidity in this thread is stupid.

[StateOfMind12]

Some of the stupidity in this thread is stupid.
Elaborate. I think saying Kidd is a top 5 of all-time otherwise it is an insult is pretty stupid though.


He couldn't shoot but shot a lot. Means he wasn't as great as advertised as far as I'm concerned. Triple double on 4-17 shooting. Woo Hoo!
He wasn't advertised as a good shooter or a good scorer. Scoring was probably Kidd's biggest weakness and I don't think anybody could deny that. He took smart shots but he just wasn't able to capitalize them at a very efficient rate. I don't think you can really blame him for that. I think Kidd was an overrated defender but I can't say he was an overrated overall player during his time.

[Meticode]

It's debatable with me, but I would include Magic, Robertson, Stockton and Thomas all ahead of Kidd. In order for him to be in my top 5 he would have to be exactly # 5 for me.

[I.R.Beast]

He's the most efficent pg in history, by far the most 50/40/90 seasons out of any player(The only one with more than 1 besides Nash is Larry Bird) 13 seasons shooting at least 40% from three, 6 seasons shooting at least 50% from the filed and 2nd all time in free throw percent and only one of two people in history to have a percent above 90% for their career( I think:oldlol: ) and he's the best shooting pg of all time whiles being one of the top 4 players ever in terms of courtvision and passing ability( Along with Kidd) . He's a multiple time mvp whiles he constantly lead the suns to a top 3 offense nearly every year. Definitly has a case


That being said it goes like this for me.

Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Stockton/Fraizer
Kidd
Payton
Nash
i dont care about his 50 and 40...prime Nash couldn't touch prime Kidd.... and Nash's game only suited run n gun basketball....the year he had ot play halfcourt ball with Shaq was his worst season of his career....his numbers are inflated by the D'Antoni era in PHX...

[StateOfMind12]

i dont care about his 50 and 40...prime Nash couldn't touch prime Kidd.... and Nash's game only suited run n gun basketball....the year he had ot play halfcourt ball with Shaq was his worst season of his career....his numbers are inflated by the D'Antoni era in PHX...
How has Nash been doing since he played with Gentry since '09-'10?? Nash is the one who made D'Antoni, not the other way around.

[I.R.Beast]

How has Nash been doing since he played with Gentry since '09-'10?? Nash is the one who made D'Antoni, not the other way around.
right right...... Nash = overrated.

[Whoah10115]

Elaborate. I think saying Kidd is a top 5 of all-time otherwise it is an insult is pretty stupid though.


He wasn't advertised as a good shooter or a good scorer. Scoring was probably Kidd's biggest weakness and I don't think anybody could deny that. He took smart shots but he just wasn't able to capitalize them at a very efficient rate. I don't think you can really blame him for that. I think Kidd was an overrated defender but I can't say he was an overrated overall player during his time.



It just seems that most of the people who leave him out of the top 5 are clearly not aware of his game. There is no place for putting Nash above him. If you think Nash is a better prime/peak player than Kidd, that's fine and respectable. In the time Nash has been back with the Suns, Kidd had two "bad seasons" (meaning he was terrific) with the Nets, an incredible season that (if the Nets didn't suck) would net him an easy 2nd Team All-NBA year, a better year the next year where he was as good as any player in basketball before being traded to Dallas, a "bad year" the next year, an all-star season the next year, then last year, where he stepped up as a defensive monster in the playoffs.


Prior to that, you can't make any argument for Nash over Kidd. Kidd was one of the 5 best players overall in the league. And then you add his pre-Nets seasons, where he was 1st Team All-NBA 3 straight times, ahead of a 28.5PPG defending Champion Kobe Bryant, and he was the best guard in the league over that 3 year stretch...then, like I said, add his best years with the Nets.


So on an all-time list you can't have Nash ahead of him. I suppose you can have Payton ahead of him, but people arguing for Payton are not making any legitimate points in Payton's favor...Kidd an overrated defender? A bigger difference in Payton's favor in defense than in court vision and passing for Jason Kidd? That's ridiculous. And stupid and arbitrary stuff like playing down his rebounding in favor of his lack of shooting...that's a general rule. But when the guy is a dominant rebounder (acceptable PF rebounding), to discard it is just ridiculous.


And I don't see how Walt Frazier, great as he was, is a better player than Jason Kidd. Kevin Johnson, one of my favorite players ever, better career? If Jason Kidd has my jumpshot he'd easily be the 2nd best PG ever. I understand the point that he didn't, and it was a weakness in his game. But even with that, he was literally a dominant player.

[LockoutOver11]

def ahead of stockton in the all time ranks,, and def below magic and isiah... for me

[Xiao Yao You]

If Jason Kidd has my jumpshot he'd easily be the 2nd best PG ever.

But without it, at the rate he threw up bricks, he's one of the most overrated players ever.

[Lebron23]

Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Bob Cousy
Walt Frazier
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton

[Eric Cartman]

Easily in my top 3. J-Kidd was something else during his heyday. :applause: :bowdown:

[Lebron23]

But without it, at the rate he threw up bricks, he's one of the most overrated players ever.


This

People criticized Bob Cousy because of his poor FG%. Cousy was an efficient scorer in comparison to the era in which he played and a better passer than Kidd. He also won an MVP, 8x NBA Champion, and a better playoffs performer than the wife beater, adulterer, and cradle snatcher.

[Kiddlovesnets]

lol I am really amazed by some posters logic here, when the hell did he start to judge a PG's value by his FG% and whether he could hit open threes?
:lol

[LockoutOver11]

This

People criticized Bob Cousy because of his poor FG%. Cousy was an efficient scorer in comparison to the era in which he played and better passer than Kidd. He also won an MVP and a better playoffs performer than the wife beater, and cradle snatcher.

u sound like a *****... and :lol at nash > kidd.. nope. nah...

[Lebron23]

u sound like a *****... and :lol at nash > kidd.. nope. nah...


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/wife-jason-kidd-serial-abuser-adulterer

The guy is a great NBA player, but a douche bag outside the basketball court.

[LockoutOver11]

"...who began beating her even before the pair's 1997 marriage"

well if thats true.... thats one dumb bitch.

[Eric Cartman]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/wife-jason-kidd-serial-abuser-adulterer

Quote from article:

According to Joumana, 34, Kidd has engaged in extramarital affairs with "several different television reporters," as well as strippers in Arizona, Sacramento, Miami, Dallas and Indiana, a Nets season ticket holder, a Nets employee, and a cheerleader in New Orleans.

You go Jason. :applause:

[Burgz]

Highly overrated in my mind. Not a highly intelligent player which you definitely need from your pg. The fact that he shot as much as he did when he couldn't shoot takes him out of any conversation as far as I'm concerned.

http://t.qkme.me/352rbu.jpg

[Xiao Yao You]

when the hell did he start to judge a PG's value by his FG% and whether he could hit open threes?

Probably the same time we judged them on their rebounding prowess and amount of triple doubles they posted. You want to talk about a guy being a great top 5 pg of all time we're going to look at the whole picture.

[StateOfMind12]

Easily in my top 3. J-Kidd was something else during his heyday. :applause: :bowdown:
Top 3? Do you think Kidd was ahead of Isiah and Stockton or something? I see little to no argument for Kidd being over any of those two.


Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Bob Cousy
Walt Frazier
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Why is Cousy so high? That looks pretty accurate to mine though except Cousy isn't even on mine and Walt is above Isiah.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Probably the same time we judged them on their rebounding prowess and amount of triple doubles they posted. You want to talk about a guy being a great top 5 pg of all time we're going to look at the whole picture.

Alright then, I personally do not think rebounding is important. What makes Kidd special is the way he runs the point, a true playmaker. If you are just holding grudge against certain people, its perhaps your best interest to stop here since this is a public forum not for your private issue. Take my advice or not is up to you though.

[Xiao Yao You]

Hey if you want to say he's better than Stockton cool. I can't see him being better than Stockton in any way other than rebounding but he always got a lot more hype. Don't think he ever has lived up to it personally.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Hey if you want to say he's better than Stockton cool. I can't see him being better than Stockton in any way other than rebounding but he always got a lot more hype. Don't think he ever has lived up to it personally.

Well hes not better than Stockton, even as a Kidd fan I have to admit that. Still it seems that you are trying to undermine him too much, its time to pay some respect to the man to whom Kobe, LBJ and CP3 held high regards in 2008 olympics.

[Lebron23]

Top 3? Do you think Kidd was ahead of Isiah and Stockton or something? I see little to no argument for Kidd being over any of those two.


Why is Cousy so high? That looks pretty accurate to mine though except Cousy isn't even on mine and Walt is above Isiah.

http://cdn.dipity.com/uploads/events/f13355c1f7696fe897fb3bc354b9196a_1M.png

1x NBA MVP
6x NBA Champion
10

[Xiao Yao You]

its time to pay some respect to the man to whom Kobe, LBJ and CP3 held high regards in 2008 olympics.

I don't have much respect for Kobe either. The woman beater never did much to excite me sorry. Don't like his game. I've liked him better as an old man. He finally stopped shooting.

[Xiao Yao You]

[quote]1x NBA MVP
6x NBA Champion
10

[LockoutOver11]

Well hes not better than Stockton, even as a Kidd fan I have to admit that. Still it seems that you are trying to undermine him too much, its time to pay some respect to the man to whom Kobe, LBJ and CP3 held high regards in 2008 olympics.

smh as a kidd fan u should know kidd is definately above stockton. one was a dominate player, the other was part of a tandem and took a bit less of the workload. kidd had work wit a whole lot more wit less until his late run wit the mavs. i think stockton shrunk in the finals and kidd elevated his team as a defensive and offensive unit. worst thing that happened in his career is the nets not getting a big man instead of carter.

[brisbaneman]

Great question.

I think the biggest case against him is his lack of halfcourt ability. But other than that he's one of the smartest players in NBA history, incredibly durable, a great rebounder, and a great defender.

It also depends on who is on your team. If you already have a great player then he is a perfect piece. But on the other hand there's a lot of point guards who are better to build around if you don't have the talent.

[Go Getter]

Well then, lets list the PGs with clearly better careers than Steve Nash:

Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, John Stockton, Chris Paul, Walt Frazier, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Mark Jackson, Tim Hardaway

And then those who are close to Steve Nash:
Sam Cassell, Deron Williams, Penny Hardaway, Avery Johnson, Chauncey Billups

So yeah, Steve Nash is at best the 13th best PG of all time without a question. He has yet to surpass Suns all time great PG Kevin Johnson, who led the team to an NBA finals appearance only to lose to the Bulls led by the GOAT. A few years later Id see Deron Williams and Derrick Rose(maybe Rajon Rondo too if he wins another champ) surpassing Nash too, effectively dropping him to around 15th or below.
:applause:

[Lebron23]

I am not even a huge fan of Steve Nash, But I think he's a better player and better PG than Kidd and Payton in his peak. This guy was putting up far more efficient numbers, and averaged more assists than Payton and Kidd in the playoffs and Conference Finals.

If the NBA didn't suspend Amare and Diaw in the 2007 Western Conference Finals. The Suns could have beaten the Spurs, and they were a much better team than the 2007 Cavaliers. Nash could have won an NBA title, and a Finals MVP.

[brisbaneman]

smh as a kidd fan u should know kidd is definately above stockton. one was a dominate player, the other was part of a tandem and took a bit less of the workload. kidd had work wit a whole lot more wit less until his late run wit the mavs. i think stockton shrunk in the finals and kidd elevated his team as a defensive and offensive unit. worst thing that happened in his career is the nets not getting a big man instead of carter.

pretty much every great player of the era has acknowledged Stockton as the toughest player he went up against.

[Shepseskaf]

I am not even a huge fan of Steve Nash, But I think he's a better player and better PG than Kidd and Payton in his peak.
:roll:

Wash out your mouth with soap. Nash is a system player who's benefited mainly from having coaches who cater to his offensive skills and hide him on defense.

Defensively, Nash is a joke. Its not even that he's bad at it, he isn't capable of playing on that side of the ball at all. So, in order for any of his teams to be successful, you need great help defenders who can cover for him and high percentage shooters to boost his assist totals.

Do you think that either Kidd or Payton needed systems to be placed around them to be successful? No. They made their teams better by virtue of their own skills. Not to mention that both of them are among the top defensive point guards of all-time.

[Kiddlovesnets]

I am not even a huge fan of Steve Nash, But I think he's a better player and better PG than Kidd and Payton in his peak. This guy was putting up far more efficient numbers, and averaged more assists than Payton and Kidd in the playoffs and Conference Finals.

If the NBA didn't suspend Amare and Diaw in the 2007 Western Conference Finals. The Suns could have beaten the Spurs, and they were a much better team than the 2007 Cavaliers. Nash could have won an NBA title, and a Finals MVP.

lol you are so delusional, Steve Nash is NOT a top 10 PG of all time, are you trying to convince me that Kidd and Payton aint top 10 PGs either 'cause they are 'worse' than Nash?
:oldlol:

And btw, do not even start on the WCSF drama in 2007. Yes the Spurs might have cheated, but the Suns have lost more than just once to the same team. The two 4-1's in 2005 and 2008 are perfect examples, Nash has yet to even make an NBA finals appearance. Yes Nash and Suns could've got their ring in 2007, so were with Dirk and Mavs. Remember the Mavs were by far the best team in regular season back then, and so what?

[Yung D-Will]

:applause:
The fact someone can actually applaud a post by someone like Kiddlovesnets is amazing. So I'm just assuming you didn't read it.

[Yung D-Will]

And calling Nash a system player is borderline retarded. Calling Nash a system player is like calling John Stockton, Karl Malone or Tim Duncan a system player. Stockton and Malone benifited from playing in Jerry Sloan's system whiles Duncan benifited from playing in Pop's system....I'm not even sure how that's taken as an insult to be honest. Hell if you're talking about systems that hide peoples weaknesses there's no system that did that more than Jerry Sloan's system.. Just look at Carlos Boozer. So why would you even rank John Stockton by that logic? And then you're gonna feed mate this crap about how Nash's stats went up when he went to the suns, and at the exact same time you're gonna fail to acknowledge that Nash was already one of the best point guards in the leauge during his last 2 seasons on Dallas.

When he wasn't even the first option in Dallas 2 seasons before he was traded he was averaging 19/8/3 on 47/40/90 shooting.

Then the season before he was traded he was averaging 16/10/3 on 47/40/91 shooting.

How many top pg's in the leauge today have better stats than that? Rondo? No. D-Will? No. Paul? I guess. Rose. Yes.

Now how many are as efficent as that? And that's before he even went to the suns

And that was as a second optiion. It's kind of funny how people rewrite history and conviently forget that people had already aknowleged Nash as one of the best pg's in the leauge before he went to the suns. But it wasn't until the suns when he was the best player and given freedom that he was aknowladged as the best pg in the leauge.


And please tell me how a system makes someone into the one of the most efficent players of all time. How come no other point guard under Mike D'antoni has been able to record a 50/40/90 season how come no player other than Bird been able to record more than one 50/40/90 season? Why does Nash have double the number of 50/40/90 seasons than Bird? O wait it's cause he's a system player right? :roll:

I'll be waiting please bring back any other player who from joining D'antoni and becoming a system player records history efficency :rolleyes:

[Go Getter]

Shooting, efficiency, shooting, efficiency, shooting, shooting, shooting.


Okay, we all know Nash can shoot.....but his passing ability is overrated (he leads the league in passes stolen quite often), he doesn't guard his position, and he hasn't even been to the Finals.

Kiddlovesnets said the Nash is about 13 on his all time list and I agree. Nash isn't even the best Suns PG ever. KJ would eat him alive.

[Eric Cartman]

Shooting, efficiency, shooting, efficiency, shooting, shooting, shooting.


Okay, we all know Nash can shoot.....but his passing ability is overrated (he leads the league in passes stolen quite often), he doesn't guard his position, and he hasn't even been to the Finals.

Kiddlovesnets said the Nash is about 13 on his all time list and I agree. Nash isn't even the best Suns PG ever. KJ would eat him alive.


People don't seem to realize how on defense: Kidd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nash.

If Nash played half the defense Kidd has thought his career (even now) he would've had a ring by now. Those Suns teams were STACKED.

[Go Getter]

A system that doesn't hold you accountable for defense while letting you launch whatever shot you want no matter the time on the shot clock helps your offensive game Immeasurably.

[Yung D-Will]

Shooting, efficiency, shooting, efficiency, shooting, shooting, shooting.


Okay, we all know Nash can shoot.....but his passing ability is overrated (he leads the league in passes stolen quite often), he doesn't guard his position, and he hasn't even been to the Finals.

Kiddlovesnets said the Nash is about 13 on his all time list and I agree. Nash isn't even the best Suns PG ever. KJ would eat him alive.

Yawn his passes get stolen so did D-Will's? That has nothing to do with passing abilty considering Nash is arguably the greatest pick and roll passer( Next to Stockton) The greatest passer on the break, The best passer after penetrating and much more.

He hasn't been to the finals? Well no shit. Laker Dynasty. Spurs Dynasty.


He doesn't guard his position? That's complete bs. He might not be a good defender but it's not like he was letting point guards drop 30 points on him on a nightly basis. Nash alwasy contributed to much more points through his playmaking abilty and scoring abilty than he gave up due to his bad defense( Which is way overstated.)

[Yung D-Will]

People don't seem to realize how on defense: Kidd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nash.

If Nash played half the defense Kidd has thought his career (even now) he would've had a ring by now. Those Suns teams were STACKED.

And people don't seem to realize that in terms of efficency and shooting Nash>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kidd

So you're giving up defense on Parker for what missed jumpshots and worse freethrows.

Kidd isn't a worse player than Nash but just like when he played the Lakers and Spurs in the finals ( By going through a weak east) the coaching was better, the players were better, and the depth was better. The biggest differnece between the runs of Nash and Kidd? Nash played the spurs and Lakers in the conference finals. Kidd faced them in the finals. One was in the west. One was in the east.

Yes those Suns starting lineups were stacked. But D'antoni has never known how to utalize a bench which led him to play Stat and Nash nearly every minute during every playoff game. Which is why when teams like the Spurs or Lakers brought in their bench they'd always go on heavy runs.

That wouldn't change because Kidd was on the roster. Kidd can't change coaching stupidity.

[Go Getter]

Yawn his passes get stolen so did D-Will's? That has nothing to do with passing abilty considering Nash is arguably the greatest pick and roll passer( Next to Stockton) The greatest passer on the break, The best passer after penetrating and much more.

He hasn't been to the finals? Well no shit. Laker Dynasty. Spurs Dynasty.


He doesn't guard his position? That's complete bs. He might not be a good defender but it's not like he was letting point guards drop 30 points on him on a nightly basis. Nash alwasy contributed to much more points through his playmaking abilty and scoring abilty than he gave up due to his bad defense( Which is way overstated.)
Magic Johnson and Jason Kidd were clearly better passers on the break....as well as Stockton, the best assist and steals man in the NBA ever. And if you're going to talk about passing, you have to note passes stolen. It's a fact that Nash over dribbles and gets a lot of passes stolen.


It is a FACT that Grant Hill guards tough PGs. Nash doesn't even guard Derrick Rose when the Bulls come to town. When the opposing teams point guard is on a roll Nash is hiding somewhere, probably on the floor resting his bqck while his backup does the hard job.

And you are talking out of your ass, defense is more important than offense, at least sticking good defense can lead to easy scores, all good offense does is lead to good looking stats. Nash's career is a living example.

[Go Getter]

If Kidd had Joe Johnson, Marion, Amare, Diaw, etc in his prime instead of a bunch of bums and K. Martin?


Imagine that with me.

[Yung D-Will]

A system that doesn't hold you accountable for defense while letting you launch whatever shot you want no matter the time on the shot clock helps your offensive game Immeasurably.
Looks at Brandon Jennings.

It's funny you talk about letting you launch shots whenever you want yet you faill to aknowlage the two seasons Nash shot the most shots were in Dallas and not the suns. His efficency didn't change from Dallas he was always one of the most efficent players in the leauge.

And in fact your point is mute because for the most part Nash's filed goal attemps actually decreased from Dallas when he went to the suns. So being able to launce whatever shot is a mute point.

[Yung D-Will]

Magic Johnson and Jason Kidd were clearly better passers on the break....as well as Stockton, the best assist and steals man in the NBA ever. And if you're going to talk about passing, you have to note passes stolen. It's a fact that Nash over dribbles and gets a lot of passes stolen.


It is a FACT that Grant Hill guards tough PGs. Nash doesn't even guard Derrick Rose when the Bulls come to town. When the opposing teams point guard is on a roll Nash is hiding somewhere, probably on the floor resting his bqck while his backup does the hard job.

And you are talking out of your ass, defense is more important than offense, at least sticking good defense can lead to easy scores, all good offense does is lead to good looking stats. Nash's career is a living example.

No they're not. Not even sure where you got that from. And yes Grant hill did guard some pg's. And how is that a knock on Nash? Was it a knock on Kobe whenever Artest would guard the other teams perimiter player? Cut the crap

No if you're producing much more points than you're giving up clearly you're offensive skils way exceed what you lack defensivly.

yawn.

[Yung D-Will]

If Kidd had Joe Johnson, Marion, Amare, Diaw, etc in his prime instead of a bunch of bums and K. Martin?


Imagine that with me.

He'd still go through the weak east and be eliiminated by the Spurs and Lakers in the finals.

Tim Duncan and Shaq doesn't suddenly get worst.

[Yung D-Will]

It's funny cause I already put Kidd as a better pplayer than Nash earlier in this thread but at least I can see what a great player Nash is and not be blinded by retarded hate and misconceptions

[Go Getter]

He'd still go through the weak east and be eliiminated by the Spurs and Lakers in the finals.

Tim Duncan and Shaq doesn't suddenly get worst.
Those Suns teams would be so much better with Kidd at the helm. I give them a chance actually.

[Go Getter]

It's funny cause I already put Kidd as a better pplayer than Nash earlier in this thread but at least I can see what a great player Nash is and not be blinded by retarded hate and misconceptions
Calling him the 13-15 best PG ever is hate? Saying that he doesnt stick top PGs like Rose is misconception? You're starting to sound a little angry man.

[Yung D-Will]

Those Suns teams would be so much better with Kidd at the helm. I give them a chance actually.

Lol than you're being retarded. The Suns team would be giving up the abilty to for the point guard to hit shots consistently and create his own shots so they wouldn't double Amare for being abilty to get Parker like what 5 less points? Having Kidd in the starting lineup doesn't suddenly teach D'antoni how to utalize his bench or make Duncan and less dominant.

[Yung D-Will]

Calling him the 13-15 best PG ever is hate? Saying that he doesnt stick top PGs like Rose is misconception? You're starting to sound a little angry man.

Yes. It is.. Saying that having a green light to chuck suddeny is the reason his stats increased when history shows that it was actually the oppositie. And retarded statements like that make you sounds like a Nash hater.

Clearly.

[Yung D-Will]

Just because I see how important defense is doesn't mean I can't see how much of an Impact players like Nash and Barkley had.

:rolleyes:

[Go Getter]

Yes. It is.. Saying that having a green light to chuck suddeny is the reason his stats increased when history shows that it was actually the oppositie. And retarded statements like that make you sounds like a Nash hater.

Clearly.
No. Go back and read. I said playing in a system where you are NOT accountable for defense and let's you shoot quick shots/fastbreak threes helped his offense.

You skewed my words, I never used the word chuck, Nash selects shots he can make masterfully, so I would never label him a chucker.


I didn't refer to history or his stats.

[Yung D-Will]

No. Go back and read. I said playing in a system where you are NOT accountable for defense and let's you shoot quick shots/fastbreak threes helped his offense.




I didn't refer to history or his stats.

And how exactly did it help? He got up less shot attempts and was basiclly just as efficenct as he was in Dallas. His last season in Dallas he was already basiclly at 10 assist per game. And he wasn't even the first option

So Please explain this to me :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Go Getter]

Lol than you're being retarded. The Suns team would be giving up the abilty to for the point guard to hit shots consistently and create his own shots so they wouldn't double Amare for being abilty to get Parker like what 5 less points? Having Kidd in the starting lineup doesn't suddenly teach D'antoni how to utalize his bench or make Duncan and less dominant.
It takes the pressure off the bigs because there isn't a a matador at the point.


It gives the team a better leader.

It gives the team a better fast break (Kidd cleaning the glass and running the point with PRIME AMARE!?)

It adds toughness.

Kidd couldn't shoot well back then but he could still score, let's not forget that.

[Yung D-Will]

Thank God I actually have the abilty to judge Payton, Nash and Kidd all objectivley and see their impact rather than discreditiing one of them like Xiao discredits Kidd and you discredit Nash.

[Go Getter]

And how exactly did it help? He got up less shot attempts and was basiclly just as efficenct as he was in Dallas. His last season in Dallas he was already basiclly at 10 assist per game. And he wasn't even the first option

So Please explain this to me :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
It helped him by letting him conserve energy on defense wtf do you think? While other players worry about getting pulled for poor d (like Boozer on my Bulls) Nash does not.

And BTW, Dallas got better the next year and eventually won the title with who at point?


Lmao!

[Yung D-Will]

It takes the pressure off the bigs because there isn't a a matador at the point.


It gives the team a better leader.

It gives the team a better fast break (Kidd cleaning the glass and running the point with PRIME AMARE!?)

It adds toughness.

Kidd couldn't shoot well back then but he could still score, let's not forget that.

Take pressure of bigs that they feel when they double Amare off of Kidd right...

Better leader? Based on what? How many times did Nash single handledly carry the suns in the playoffs, Play with injuries ext.

And maybe Kidd is slightly better than Nash on the break? How many more possible points would Kidd be resposible that Nash already didn't feed to Amare.

[Yung D-Will]

It helped him by letting him conserve energy on defense wtf do you think? While other players worry about getting pulled for poor d (like Boozer on my Bulls) Nash does not.

And BTW, Dallas got better the next year and eventually won the title with who at point?


Lmao!

Conserve energy? But he never conserved energy he was always trying to take a charge always running around, Always running breaks, Always runing period. The Suns teams probally conserved less energy than any other team considering the pace they played at.


Lmao at you comparing Dallas from 04 to Dallas to 11? The only 2 players that were the same on that Roster were Terry and Dirk. And yep the great spurs Dynasty they had to face which included a 90 year old Duncan.

Keep digging

[Go Getter]

Thank God I actually have the abilty to judge Payton, Nash and Kidd all objectivley and see their impact rather than discreditiing one of them like Xiao discredits Kidd and you discredit Nash.
If it makes you feel better to think that way then fine.


It's not like I'm telling you you're retarded for your opinion (this is all about opinion) like you are me.


Remember last year when you had all sorts of false assumptions about the Jazz and Bulls? Remember CJ was supposed to have that breakout year?


You've been wrong before and I have too.....only thing is, I don't call you out of your name for your opinion, and I take what you say for face value without assuming I know why you feel why you feel.

[Go Getter]

Conserve energy? But he never conserved energy he was always trying to take a charge always running around, Always running breaks, Always runing period. The Suns teams probally conserved less energy than any other team considering the pace they played at.


Lmao at you comparing Dallas from 04 to Dallas to 11? The only 2 players that were the same on that Roster were Terry and Dirk. And yep the great spurs Dynasty they had to face which included a 90 year old Duncan.

Keep digging
You conserve energy when they put you on the opposing teams worst guard while Grant Hill has to stick the one thats taking all the shots.

Anyone that plays ball knows that defense takes MUCH MORE energy out of you than offense. Much more.


Dallas got better the very next year, and then I said went onto win the title with Kidd. Those are facts my friend.

[Yung D-Will]

You conserve energy when they put you on the opposing teams worst guard while Grant Hill has to stick the one thats taking all the shots.

Dallas got better the very next year, and then I said went onto win the title with Kidd. Those are facts my friend.

They got better than next year and when this happend to them right?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505090PHO.html

Nash 27/17, 48/5, 34/13/12, 39/12/9

The irony of it all.


And that Dallas team faced weaker comp than the one Nash was on? What's your point.

I don't find your opinion retarded. I find anything trying to discredit an all time great as retarded.

[Go Getter]

Take pressure of bigs that they feel when they double Amare off of Kidd right...

Better leader? Based on what? How many times did Nash single handledly carry the suns in the playoffs, Play with injuries ext.

And maybe Kidd is slightly better than Nash on the break? How many more possible points would Kidd be resposible that Nash already didn't feed to Amare.
1. You do realize you called Nash a better fastbreak point guard than Magic Johnson right?

2. I want my team captain to be able to play both ways. As a teammate I would respect Kidd more than Nash because he played both ways.

3. People sagged off of Kidd but c'Mon, the defense didn't disrespect him that Mich that they doubled off of him that much, and Amare posts with his back to the basket how much as a young player for that to be a factor?

[Go Getter]

They got better than next year and when this happend to them right?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505090PHO.html

Nash 27/17, 48/5, 34/13/12, 39/12/9

The irony of it all.


And that Dallas team faced weaker comp than the one Nash was on? What's your point.

I don't find your opinion retarded. I find anything trying to discredit an all time great as retarded.


Irony is them winning their only title with Kidd and Nash being an all time great PG but never reaching the finals with two of our times best PFs.


You say discrediting because you want me to hold Nash at the same level you do but in fact I feel that he and every one way player is overrated.


Anyone that plays pro sports gets scrutinized. Stop being so sensitive.

[Yung D-Will]

1. You do realize you called Nash a better fastbreak point guard than Magic Johnson right?

2. I want my team captain to be able to play both ways. As a teammate I would respect Kidd more than Nash because he played both ways.

3. People sagged off of Kidd but c'Mon, the defense didn't disrespect him that Mich that they doubled off of him that much, and Amare posts with his back to the basket how much as a young player for that to be a factor?

1. I said arguably. I wasn't gonna go into all the details of who's the best p&r pg, Fast break pg ext because everything would be split between Magic, Stockton, Kidd and Nash

2. Understandable

3. Yes Nash was a bad defender but he didn't lose games for the suns because of his defense. ( See I can exaggerate about Kidd to)

[Yung D-Will]

Irony is them winning their only title with Kidd and Nash being an all time great PG but never reaching the finals with two of our times best PFs.


You say discrediting because you want me to hold Nash at the same level you do but in fact I feel that he and every one way player is overrated.


Anyone that plays pro sports gets scrutinized. Stop being so sensitive.

Irony is when Nash was at his peak or when he has those two pf's he faced dynastys that were much tougher than what Dallas went through last year.

No I feel anyone like Xiao who discredits Kidd cause he couldn't shoot and you who discredits Nash because he was a good defender is overlooking their overall impact to harp on one weaknes in their game

[Scholar]

Definitely a top 5 PG. He's already 2nd in assists (and nobody is getting to 1st ever. Stockton set the record too high) and almost 2nd in all-time steals, surpassing the GOAT in just a few games.
He has a title to add to his legacy, which he won against the most hyped NBA team of all-time.
The guy is one of the top 3-pters made players of all-time.
He led a scrubby Nets team to the Finals back in the early 2000's.
C'mon, folks. There are too many things to list on Kidd's resum'e. He's clearly a top 5 PG.

[Go Getter]

Irony is when Nash was at his peak or when he has those two pf's he faced dynastys that were much tougher than what Dallas went through last year.

No I feel anyone like Xiao who discredits Kidd cause he couldn't shoot and you who discredits Nash because he was a good defender is overlooking their overall impact to harp on one weaknes in their game
Poor defense is a far bigger weakness than poor outside shooting.

[Yung D-Will]

Poor defense is a far bigger weakness than poor outside shooting.
For the point guard position? Not at all. Not playing your pg for a shot and going underneath screens is much worse to your offense than a pg being bad on d.

Either way neither is a big deal if your impact in other areas if far great like Nash and Kidd.

[Yung D-Will]

If anything at this point it's even

People were just as scared about whether or not Rubio could defend in the Nba as whether or not he could shoot.

[Go Getter]

For the point guard position? Not at all. Not playing your pg for a shot and going underneath screens is much worse to your offense than a pg being bad on d.

Either way neither is a big deal if your impact in other areas if far great like Nash and Kidd.

No, it is not. Having a team defense with 5 venerable links is much more valuable than having a PG that can get you and efficient 18-20 points a game.


Defense is the key to championships.

Look at Boston and Rondo. Rondo was causing havoc on defense with no shot for example.

[Go Getter]

If anything at this point it's even

People were just as scared about whether or not Rubio could defend in the Nba as whether or not he could shoot.



I don't think It's even at all. Any coach worth his salt will tell you defense wins championships.

[Yung D-Will]

No, it is not. Having a team defense with 5 venerable links is much more valuable than having a PG that can get you and efficient 18-20 points a game.


Defense is the key to championships.

Look at Boston and Rondo. Rondo was causing havoc on defense with no shot for example.

And look at Fisher. He was hitting clutch shots with no defense what so ever.

Having a team complete team defense means little if they don't have to guard one of your players on the perimiter what so ever.

[Yung D-Will]

I don't think It's even at all. Any coach worth his salt will tell you defense wins championships.

Defense wins championships. But this isn't a game like football where your defense is only accountable for defense. This is a game where your defenders have to be accountable for your offense to. Therefore a weakness on offense is can be just as deadly as a weakness on defense.

[LockoutOver11]

And look at Fisher. He was hitting clutch shots with no defense what so ever.

Having a team complete team defense means little if they don't have to guard one of your players on the perimiter what so ever.

Wth? U cant compare Rondo to Fisher. Rondo was dominating and the reason Celtics were going anywhere..

Jason Kidd is not little fisher. He was guarding the main offensive weapons on the other team, Kobe, Durant....Lebron, Wade... dude. lol.

[Go Getter]

So now they didn't even guard Kidd? Rondo wasn't the Celts most deadly player with no jumpshot?


If you can stop the other team from scoring and your defense is tight, then you have to worry less about offense because the other team OS not scoring well.


Loom at the examples man, defense beats offense in basketball.....even when you're wide open you miss shots, but add tough d to that? It's a wrap.

[Yung D-Will]

Wth? U cant compare Rondo to Fisher. Rondo was dominating and the reason Celtics were going anywhere..

Jason Kidd is not little fisher. He was guarding the main offensive weapons on the other team, Kobe, Durant....Lebron, Wade... dude. lol.

The point was with a pg that made shots and lacked defense it was still possble for them to win two championships.

Whiles at times the fact Rondo didn't have a jumper and teams didn't have to guard him made them vulnarable at times


Read this thread. Whne I put Kidd as the 6th best pg of all time what about that implied I think he was fisher.

[Yung D-Will]

So now they didn't even guard Kidd? Rondo wasn't the Celts most deadly player with no jumpshot?


If you can stop the other team from scoring and your defense is tight, then you have to worry less about offense because the other team OS not scoring well.


Loom at the examples man, defense beats offense in basketball.....even when you're wide open you miss shots, but add tough d to that? It's a wrap.

They did guard Kidd. Just like Players didn't have huge games on Nash every night because his defense was that bad. I can overexaturate just like you.

And if you consistently have all time great efficency you rarley have to worry about missing shots when you have space.

[LockoutOver11]

The point was with a pg that made shots and lacked defense it was still possble for them to win two championships.

Whiles at times the fact Rondo didn't have a jumper and teams didn't have to guard him made them vulnarable at times


Read this thread. Whne I put Kidd as the 6th best pg of all time what about that implied I think he was fisher.

You don't think fisher was more of a liability than a reason they won. Now I didn't watch the Lakers - Boston battles in the finals, but I do know that the last one was close. Anyone can win a game 7 and it got to a game 7. I also don't know Rondo's numbers but I def know his impact was the greatest on the celtics side, by leading his squad. In the end great team play... whether offensively or defensively will give u the greatest chance to win. Kidd was a main part of doing both for his teams...

as far as 6th best,, whatever... I have my own list. And for now I can only compare to players I saw play. Hes below Magic and Isiah. And over Stockton and Payton...

[Go Getter]

They did guard Kidd. Just like Players didn't have huge games on Nash every night because his defense was that bad. I can overexaturate just like you.

And if you consistently have all time great efficency you rarley have to worry about missing shots when you have space.

No one said pepoole had huge games on Nash every night. I said they hid Nash on d, Nash was not held accountable on defense (to his credit, many superstars aren't), and his is one of the worst defensive point guard you will ever call great.

With that said I've seen Magic stink it up on defense, I've seen Stockton get torched, and even Zeke (one of my favorite competitors) might have been the worst defender on the floor at times with his Pistons.

I'm not utterly unrealistic, I'm a defensive minded basketball fan and player. Naturally, Steve Nash wouldn't be one of my persona fav's when talking about all-time greats, which, as the 13-15th best of all-time, even if you think I'm ranking him too low, is what he is.

[JMT]

Defense between Kidd and Stockton was about the same. Kidd was overrated defensively so I might give the edge to Stockton actually. Rebounding is irrelevant especially for a PG. Do you really care how well a PG rebounds? Is it really going to make you take one player over the other because of a PG's ability to rebound?

I would rather have my PG be efficient and be able to shoot efficiently than to be able to rebound.

Their defense isn't that close. Stockton was a tough guy who worked hard and had quick hands, but he was significantly smaller and slower than Kidd. Kidd's versatility as a defender was huge early in his career, as he guarded the 1-3 with equal effectiveness.

Rebounding is irrelevant? Wow. A defensive rebound is a possession, and a PG who can defend his position and come up with boards is certainly relevant, especially when that PG is one of the best end-to-end players in history.

Stockton is a great player who had the great fortune to play his entire career with another great player. I like Kidd's game better.

[EGarrett]

I think that player wise, he can be argued. However, he may never has the career to stack up against the likes of Isiah, Stockton, Frazier etc.

Bonus Question: Is he better than Thomas and Stockton?

I want to see your thoughts on this one. I can't explain.

Edit: Could you list your top 5 PG lists as well?On Kidd vs. Thomas, It depends on what you value, energizing the whole team, All-NBA level defense and rebounds, or being able to provide clutch scoring when the team needs it. Kidd actually was a decent scorer when the game was on the line, and Isiah knew how to get teammates involved. And Kidd made 3 Finals and got 1 ring, while Isiah was 2 for 2.

I'd call it a wash, though I think other people lean toward Zeke.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The point was with a pg that made shots and lacked defense it was still possble for them to win two championships.

Whiles at times the fact Rondo didn't have a jumper and teams didn't have to guard him made them vulnarable at times


Read this thread. Whne I put Kidd as the 6th best pg of all time what about that implied I think he was fisher.

Well thats a big point to make, isnt it? Yes it is possible for defenseless scoring PGs to win a title, but they need somewhat of a super team to make this happen. The Lakers apparently were one of the best teams in the league in 2009 and 2010, and they dominated the west by a huge margin. Fisher could make clutch shot, but the team had to be able to hold on for the final minute so that they actually would have a chance for Fisher to hit the shot and win. Cant win games when you were down 10+ in the final minute hoping Fisher to be your savior.

[Yung D-Will]

Well thats a big point to make, isnt it? Yes it is possible for defenseless scoring PGs to win a title, but they need somewhat of a super team to make this happen. The Lakers apparently were one of the best teams in the league in 2009 and 2010, and they dominated the west by a huge margin. Fisher could make clutch shot, but the team had to be able to hold on for the final minute so that they actually would have a chance for Fisher to hit the shot and win. Cant win games when you were down 10+ in the final minute hoping Fisher to be your savior.

So please tell me how many of these defensive minded star point guards won championships as the best player? Stockton? Kidd? Payton?

Nash exceeds all of them in terms of shooting and efficency a long with being just as good of a passer as Kidd and Stockton.

What Nash lacks in defense he more than makes up in the fact he's the most efficent pg of all time and probally the best shooting pg ever.


Payton , Kidd and Nash are differnt players. But despite all of them having weaknesses they found a way to impact the game and dominate.

Think about this. Payton has 0 season shooting above 40% from 3. Nash had 13. Payton has 2 seasons shooting 50% from the filed whiles Nash has 6. Payton is a career 73% free throw shooter whiles Nash is 2nd all time in free throw percent and only one of two people to shoot above 90% for their career whiles Payton never shot above 80% from the free throw line.

I mean if you're gonna aknowlage that they weren't close defensivley you have to aknowladge they weren't close efficency wise/

[LockoutOver11]

So please tell me how many of these defensive minded star point guards won championships as the best player? Stockton? Kidd? Payton?

Nash exceeds all of them in terms of shooting and efficency a long with being just as good of a passer as Kidd and Stockton.

What Nash lacks in defense he more than makes up in the fact he's the most efficent pg of all time and probally the best shooting pg ever.


Payton , Kidd and Nash are differnt players. But despite all of them having weaknesses they found a way to impact the game and dominate.

Think about this. Payton has 0 season shooting above 40% from 3. Nash had 13. Payton has 2 seasons shooting 50% from the filed whiles Nash has 6. Payton is a career 73% free throw shooter whiles Nash is 2nd all time in free throw percent and only one of two people to shoot above 90% for their career whiles Payton never shot above 80% from the free throw line.

I mean if you're gonna aknowlage that they weren't close defensivley you have to aknowladge they weren't close efficency wise/

Two of these three found a way to the finals as well,,, multiple times. and none of that couldve, shouldve bullshit. Either you make it or you dont...

[Yung D-Will]

Two of these three found a way to the finals as well,,, multiple times. and none of that couldve, shouldve bullshit. Either you make it or you dont...

And two of them have 0 mvps. And only 1 of them has a dpoy. If you're trying to make a point I'm waiting.

If when Nash went to the conference finals and when Kidd went to the finals they didn't lose to basiclly the exact same dynasties than you might have a point.

[Yung D-Will]

Two of these three found a way to the finals as well,,, multiple times. and none of that couldve, shouldve bullshit. Either you make it or you dont...
And to use your logic....


Don't use that whole Nash didn't deserve his mvp's .

Either you make it and get the award or you don't:rolleyes:

[LockoutOver11]

And to use your logic....


Don't use that whole Nash didn't deserve his mvp's .

Either you make it and get the award or you don't:rolleyes:

Nope, my issue isnt that Nash won mvps. My issue is when you use the word dominate. Kidd and Payton dominated at much more higher stages of the game, and watching all three just clearly much more than Nash ever could physically or skill wise. Dude was a great shooter. Did he make teammates better. Nope... all pretty much performed at high levels after. Marion was a sun during his prime. It just you can see it. Suns made him the go to guy on the team. That should've never been his role...

[Yung D-Will]

Nope, my issue isnt that Nash won mvps. My issue is when you use the word dominate. Kidd and Payton dominated at much more higher stages of the game, and watching all three just clearly much more than Nash ever could physically or skill wise. Dude was a great shooter. Did he make teammates better. Nope... all pretty much performed at high levels after. Marion was a sun during his prime. It just you can see it. Suns made him the go to guy on the team. That should've never been his role...
Lol.

Kidd and Payton dominated at higher stages of the game? BASED ON WHAT?

Physically? What exactly are you referring to.



Exactly how doesn't Nash make his teammates better? Did you even watch them play basketball? What exactly does being productive afterwards say about a player not making you better? Now that Boozer, Wesley, Korver and Brewer are productive does that mean D-Will didn't make players better? Now that Chandler Is productive does that mean Paul didn't make his team better?

Do you really want to pull out the offense efficency stats of the teams when Nash plays and when he doesn't? Shaqattack has posted them many times because of these same random statements.

[LockoutOver11]

Lol.

Kidd and Payton dominated at higher stages of the game? BASED ON WHAT?

Physically? What exactly are you referring to.



Exactly how doesn't Nash make his teammates better? Did you even watch them play basketball? What exactly does being productive afterwards say about a player not making you better? Now that Boozer, Wesley, Korver and Brewer are productive does that mean D-Will didn't make players better? Now that Chandler Is productive does that mean Paul didn't make his team better?

Do you really want to pull out the offense efficency stats of the teams when Nash plays and when he doesn't? Shaqattack has posted them many times because of these same random statements.

Listen dude,, If you wanna ignore that Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were great enough players to be legit go to guys for their respective teams, build around them more so than a player like Nash.. watever,, In the end... Kidd and Paytons legacy are never gonna be matched by Nash...

Those two were bigger dudes, that could dominate on offense and defense. They made plays on both sides.. that lead to their success as players.

You mentioned D-Will. That dude is a monster and a leader. You mentioned some role players he played with playing better,,, ugh no. They are still role players. Boozer... is a joke. You can watch the game thats on for proof. Paul is another monster. Chandler is still a role player.... Paul and Williams are greater players to build around than Nash... and might even end up higher in rankings when its all said and done for them.

**** I care about offense efficency stats,, when all it is, is stats and not championship basketball. The game might be fun to watch, but I assure you being a suns fan is not that fun.

I like Nash, but its not a debate anymore. Your comparing legends to an all star...

[Yung D-Will]

Listen dude,, If you wanna ignore that Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were great enough players to be legit go to guys for their respective teams, build around them more so than a player like Nash.. watever,, In the end... Kidd and Paytons legacy are never gonna be matched by Nash...

Those two were bigger dudes, that could dominate on offense and defense. They made plays on both sides.. that lead to their success as players.

You mentioned D-Will. That dude is a monster and a leader. You mentioned some role players he played with playing better,,, ugh no. They are still role players. Boozer... is a joke. You can watch the game thats on for proof. Paul is another monster. Chandler is still a role player.... Paul and Williams are greater players to build around than Nash... and might even end up higher in rankings when its all said and done for them.

**** I care about offense efficency stats,, when all it is, is stats and not championship basketball. The game might be fun to watch, but I assure you being a suns fan is not that fun.

I like Nash, but its not a debate anymore. Your comparing legends to an all star...

Lol Nash haters so irrational. It's funny I'm a D-Will fan yet I can ever see the difference between Nash and him.

But I've already said Payton and Kidd were better than Nash so what's your point.

Ignore list until you stop saying retarded things.

[LockoutOver11]

***** you aint a fan of shit.. and that was made very clear. Welcome to my I don't give a **** bout watchu do list... and your sister is retarded;)

[Yung D-Will]

"Yung D-Will"

[Is He Ill]

Listen dude,, If you wanna ignore that Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were great enough players to be legit go to guys for their respective teams, build around them more so than a player like Nash.. watever,, In the end... Kidd and Paytons legacy are never gonna be matched by Nash...

Those two were bigger dudes, that could dominate on offense and defense. They made plays on both sides.. that lead to their success as players.

You mentioned D-Will. That dude is a monster and a leader. You mentioned some role players he played with playing better,,, ugh no. They are still role players. Boozer... is a joke. You can watch the game thats on for proof. Paul is another monster. Chandler is still a role player.... Paul and Williams are greater players to build around than Nash... and might even end up higher in rankings when its all said and done for them.

**** I care about offense efficency stats,, when all it is, is stats and not championship basketball. The game might be fun to watch, but I assure you being a suns fan is not that fun.

I like Nash, but its not a debate anymore. Your comparing legends to an all star...


:wtf: Steve Nash in his prime was slightly superior to Kidd in my opinion. I wouldn't rate either in the top 5, but they are both borderline top 5 point guards. I would give Nash the slight advantage because of his excellent shooting ability and MVPs. I think it's practically a tie between the two, but I would hardly say that it is like comparing legends to an all star. Steve Nash was a great point guard.

[Yung D-Will]

:wtf: Steve Nash in his prime was slightly superior to Kidd in my opinion. I wouldn't rate either in the top 5, but they are both borderline top 5 point guards. I would give Nash the slight advantage because of his excellent shooting ability and MVPs. I think it's practically a tie between the two, but I would hardly say that it is like comparing legends to an all star. Steve Nash was a great point guard.

Please don't quote him anymore. His post are borderline retarded.

[LockoutOver11]

:wtf: Steve Nash in his prime was slightly superior to Kidd in my opinion. I wouldn't rate either in the top 5, but they are both borderline top 5 point guards. I would give Nash the slight advantage because of his excellent shooting ability and MVPs. I think it's practically a tie between the two, but I would hardly say that it is like comparing legends to an all star. Steve Nash was a great point guard.

You really don't wanna talk about primes dude.... its just not fair to one of them. I'ma just stop before it starts looking like I'm some Nash hater. He's a good guy, and I like him as a leader... but he was given an opportunity to get to a certain stage. His team, with him leading it... didn't make it. I blame a shitty suns organization, a horrible coaching concept, and putting the duty on nash's shoulders. He just wasn't gonna be able to be that guy... and it proved right. And it's not like I'm saying this just now. I've been saying this since this guy was let go by the Mavs... great skills. Didn't have the body for more than what he did. Offensively he is not even a complete player. He is an efficient shooter... but jumpers can only take you so far. You will eventually miss. And if you can't stop nobody,, your teammates will wear down... and hence no championships.

[DKLaker]

Hell no......Kidd is not a top 5.

[LockoutOver11]

Please don't quote him anymore. His post are borderline retarded.

Lol don't be a ***** about it... You didn't manage to say anything brilliant Yung D-Will... Your prolly a kid... and your first game was prolly sometime in 2005. I ain't gonna waste my time lil man.

[StateOfMind12]

lol at it not being fair to compare primes. Primes define what kind of player you were and how good you were.

[LockoutOver11]

lol at it not being fair to compare primes. Primes define what kind of player you were and how good you were.

obviously i was saying not fair for nash.... kidds prime was way more dominate in my opinion.

[StateOfMind12]

obviously i was saying not fair for nash.... kidds prime was way more dominate in my opinion.
:facepalm

[Lebron23]

Nash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kidddddddddddddddd.

[BIZARRO]

Jason Kidd is probably the single most overrated player on ISH.

Anywhere comparing him to Isiah and Stockton needs to get their heads checked.

To me the top 5 point guards ever list:
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4/5. Frazier/Stockton

Gary Payton was better than Kidd. I'd go as far as to say much.
Penny Hardaway at his best was better. Kevin Johnson at his best was better.
Kidd was never close to as good as Derrick Rose or Chris Paul at thier best either.
There's 10 who were clearly better at their best.

Kidd was flashy and influential, and likeable on the court, but ISH fanboys seem to confuse that with a player's impact and quality.

Don't get me wrong, Kidd was very good and at times great. But he's lucky to scratch the top 10 point guards ever, let alone Top 5.

[Xiao Yao You]

Poor defense is a far bigger weakness than poor outside shooting.

Like everything it depends. If you have a team around you that defends well as a team but can't shoot it might be better to be able to shoot and vice versa. Kidd had guys around him that could defend and shoot but he still chose to shoot. The fact that he can't shoot isn't the problem it's the fact that he shot so much. I prefer his game now where he rarely shoots. The way it always should have been.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Like everything it depends. If you have a team around you that defends well as a team but can't shoot it might be better to be able to shoot and vice versa. Kidd had guys around him that could defend and shoot but he still chose to shoot. The fact that he can't shoot isn't the problem it's the fact that he shot so much. I prefer his game now where he rarely shoots. The way it always should have been.

Kidd chose to shoot so much?

For his career Kidd shot 11 shots per game, while playing 36 minutes.
During his Nets years Kidd shot around 14-15 shots per game.

Kidd shot the ball when he was open. If Kidd passed up open shots, people would've criticized him more, and rightly.

I can't believe people are making Jason Kidd of all people out to be a chucker.

[Xiao Yao You]

Who called him a chucker? For a guy that shot as badly as him he shot way too much. Wouldn't have gotten as many triple doubles though and that would have hurt his stock.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Who called him a chucker? For a guy that shot as badly as him he shot way too much. Wouldn't have gotten as many triple doubles though and that would have hurt his stock.

Are you suggesting that Kidd forced up shots to pad his triple double stats? Is this opposite day?

[Xiao Yao You]

No but I do think his teams might have won more games with him passing more and shooting less which might have meant less triple doubles which seems to be his calling card. For as good of a passer as he was he never led the league in assists til Stockton's minutes dropped after microfacture surgery and he lost the title when Nash went to Phoenix. He's the triple double king though!

[DetroitPiston]

Yes, he's a top 5 PG. And good lord, Steve Nash is better than Jason Kidd? Really? :facepalm

I like Nash, loved watching his Suns teams, but if I had to choose between him or Kidd, I'd go with Kidd, even current Kidd.

One of the things that Kidd did was he made his teams better. He was the biggest reason that the Nets made the finals consisting of Keith Van Horn, Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles. Look at the Mavs' record before they drafted him and then after. The Suns made the playoffs every time when he was in Phoenix. Heck, the Suns teams Nash had with Kidd in his place, holy crap at how effective they would've been.

Kidd was also much better defensively than Nash, FFS, Nash's college coach once said that he was one of the worst defenders he had ever seen. Kidd was immense at guarding people, look at how he defended Wade and LeBron in the finals last year.

Honestly, I wonder how many saw Kidd at his prime, heck, even when he was with the Nets.

[game385]

I see a lot of Oscar Robertson here but wasn't he primarily a 2???

I know he was a combo guard but as great as his stats were, you'd think that if he were primarily a pg we'd hear about it more.

I almost never hear anaylsts bring up Oscar Robertson when they talk about all-time great PGs and I assumed it was b/c he was mostly considered a SG.

Either way. Kidd is still top 5 IMO.

[JMT]

I see a lot of Oscar Robertson here but wasn't he primarily a 2???

I know he was a combo guard but as great as his stats were, you'd think that if he were primarily a pg we'd hear about it more.

I almost never hear anaylsts bring up Oscar Robertson when they talk about all-time great PGs and I assumed it was b/c he was mostly considered a SG.

Either way. Kidd is still top 5 IMO.

Thought the same about Oscar. He really defied classification.

During his career, he was listed as a G-F, which would lead to believe he was a 2-3. But his assist totals were through the roof, and he monopolized the ball. Eveything ran through him.

He guarded everything from the 1-4.

They paired him with smaller guards like Odie Smith, who was 6'1" (like most of the guards of the era), but he was a 17 ppg/3 assist guy in his prime. Certainly not a PG.

Shows what a great player he was that it's impossible to even limit the category in which he belongs. PG? Top 5. SG? Top 5. SF? Top 10. Amazing.