Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

jlauber

01-31-2012, 06:28 AM

Chamberlain has been labeled a "choker" in his post-season career. Let's revisit his post-season career, and more importantly, his performances in the pivotal "must-win" games, as well those that clinched the series' wins. Furthermore, I am including the performance of his OPPOSING centers in those series.

1959-60. Wilt's ROOKIE season. Keep in mind that Chamberlain came to a LAST-PLACE team, and immediately led them to a then best-ever team record of 49-26.

The first round of the playoffs was a BEST-OF-THREE series. In the clinching game three win (both a "clincher" and a "must-win"), all Wilt did was score 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. How about his OPPOSING center? Multiple all-star Red Kerr had SEVEN points.

Comments: Chamberlain averaged 38.7 ppg in that series, along with 22.3 rpg. Meanwhile, his OPPOSING center, Kerr, averaged 13.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and shot, get this, ... .294 from the field.

ECF's. In a "must-win" game five, Chamberlain put up a 50 point, 35 rebound, 22-42 game against Russell, in leading Philly to a win. Russell had a 22 point, 27 rebound game. In the clinching game six two-point loss, Chamberlain had 26 points and 24 rebounds, while Russell put up a 25 point, 25 rebound game.

Comments: Wilt averaged 30.5 ppg in that series, along with 27.5 rpg. Russell was at 20.7 ppg and 27.0 rpg.

Incidently, Chamberlain shot .496 in the playoffs that post-season, in a league that shot .410 overall. Meanwhile, his teammates collectively shot .380 in the post-season.

60-61. Chamberlain's team was swept by Syracuse, 3-0. In the clinching game three loss, Chamberlain scored 33 points. His two opposing centers, Red Kerr and 7-3 Swede Halbrook scored 6 and 7 points respectively.

Comments: Chamberlain averaged 37.0 ppg and 23.0 rpg on .469 shooting (in a league that shot .415), which included a 46 point outburst in game one. His two opposing centers, Kerr and Halbrook, averaged 8.0 ppg and 11.3 ppg respectively. BTW, the Warriors lost one game by three points, and another by one point. How did Wilt's teammates shoot in that series? .332. Yes, .332 from the field.

61-62. The first round of the playoffs were a best-of-five series. In the must-win and clinching game five win, Chamberlain scored 56 points, with 35 rebounds, and on 22-48 shooting. His opposing center, Red Kerr, had 20 points.

Comments: Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg, 26.2 rpg, and shot .466 from the floor in that series (in a league that shot .426.) Kerr averaged 17.6 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and shot .376.

ECF's. In a must-win game six win, Wilt put up a 32 point, 21 rebound game, while Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds. In the game seven, two-point loss, Wilt was held to a season-low, 22 points, with 21 rebounds (Pollack had him with 22 BTW), on 7-15 shooting. Russell had 19 points, 22 rebounds, on 7-14 shooting.

Comments: Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 33.7 ppg to 22.0 ppg, outrebounded Russell, per game, 26.9 rpg, to Russell's 25.9 rpg, and outshot Russell by a .468 to .420 (approx...Russell shot .500 in his Finals, and .457 overall in the playoffs, with half of his 14 games against Wilt.)

Incidently, in the entire post-season, Wilt shot .467, while his teammates collectively shot .354. Despite that horrible shooting, Chamberlain carried that 49-31 team to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers. And in game seven of the Finals, Wilt converted a three-point play late to tie the game. Sam Jones hit the game winner over Wilt's outstretched hand. Game recaps credit Chamberlain with "outstanding defense" in that game. BTW, in game two, in a seven point win, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him, 37-20.

And for those that claim that Russell really held Chamberlain down in the Finals, based on Wilt's 50.4 ppg .506 regular season numbers... during their regular season H2H's, Wilt averaged 38 ppg on .471 shooting against Russell. In the seven game ECF's, Wilt averaged 33.7 ppg on .468 shooting. Not nearly as dramatic as those like Simmons would claim.

63-64. In a game seven win of the first round of the WCF's, Chamberlain put up a 39 point, 26 rebound, 10 block game. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty (who would go on to be a multiple all-star BTW) had 10 points. For the series, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .559. Beaty averaged 14.3 ppg, 9.5 rpg, and shot .521 from the floor.

Comments: Incidently, that .521 by Beaty was the highest opposing FG% that I could find that Wilt allowed in the post-season. And Jerry Lucas' .500 in the '72 Finals, were the only two that I could find in which he allowed an opposing center, in 29 playoff series, to shoot .500 or better.

Oh, and Wilt had a 50 point game, on 22-32 shooting, in game five of that series.

Finals. In the clinching game five loss, Wilt had a 30 point, 27 rebound game. Russell had a 14 point, 26 rebound game.

Comments: Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, in the Finals, 29.2 ppg to Russell's 11.2 ppg. Wilt outrebounded Russell, per game, 27.6 rpg, to 25.2 rpg. And Chamberlain shot .517 from the floor in that series. I couldn't find Russell's FG% in that series, but in his ten post-season games, he shot .356, and half of those ten games were against Chamberlain.

Wilt's 48-32 Warriors were outgunned in HOFers by Russell's Celtics, 8-2 (and Chamberlain's lone HOF teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who was playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395 in the process.) Two of the losses were decided in the last few seconds, as well. In the game four, 98-95 loss, Wilt outscored Russell, 27-8, and outrebounded Russell, 38-19.

64-65. In the clinching game four win of the first round of the playoffs against the Royals (in a best-of-five series), Wilt had 38 points. His opposing center, HOFer and multiple all-star, Wayne Embry, had 7 points.

Comments: Wilt averaged 22.5 ppg and 15.6 rpg in the series. Embry averaged 12.8 ppg, 6.3 rpg, and shot .438 from the floor. Clearly, Wilt saved his best effort in that series, for the clincher.

ECF's. In the clinching game seven, one point loss, Wilt scored 30 points, on 12-15 shooting from the floor, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting from the field, with 29 rebounds (as well as many blocks.)

Chamberlain scored six of Philly's last eight points, (including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left), in bringing the 40-40 Sixers back from a 110-101 deficit to within 110-109. Russell then hit guidewire with the inbounds pass, and the Sixers had an opportunity to pull off a major upset over the 62-18 Celtics. However, "Havlicek stole the ball", and the Sixers lost that game seven by one point.

Comments: Chamberlain outscored Russell per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg, and outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.6 rpg to 25.3 rpg. Russell shot .451 from the floor against Wilt (which was probably his HIGHEST post-season FG% series against Chamberlain), and while I couldn't find Wilt's FG% in that series, he shot .530 overall in the playoffs, with seven of his 11 games against Russell.

Chamberlain shot .530 in the post-season, and his teammates collectively shot .413.

To be continued...

Kblaze8855

01-31-2012, 07:17 AM

Wilt averaged 30/23 for his career. You could pull any numbers from any situation...at random...the numbers alone are gonna look good. He never had a game under 10 rebounds. He played 47 minutes a game for his playoff career. The least minutes he played in a playoff run...ever...was 46.2. You arent gonna play Wilt 46-49 minutes(he averaged 48.5 one rum...im guessing he played every minute of the playoffs) on a team that scores over 130 points 35 times in a season(at a glance...30+ times in 67) and not have him produce epic numbers.

I dont think the people who hate on wilt think that he put up 12/8 in closeout games. You pull 5 Wilt games out at random he probably has like 34/22, 20/28/12, 55/33, 14/25/8, and 47/32/6.

Wilt isnt a guy who is gonna have bad numbers or have been out produced by his opponent. His opponent probably averaged better numbers than him coming into the series in 2-3 series ever...probably all of them vs Kareem or Reed when he was old. Why would Johnny Kerr and his 15ppg on 38% shooting have better numbers than Wilt? Why would Wayne Embry(no doubt a good player...and quite strong...but he isnt in the HOF as a player) have better numbers than Wilt? He averaged 13 a game that season.

And how many of wilts opposing center would be expected to shoot 50% anyway? Walt bellamy? Lucas? that it? Maybe some of the guys who came in mid 60s like Reed. Embry, Russell, thurmond, Kerr, and most of the late 50s early 60s guys were shooting in the low 40s(sometimes high 30s) anyway.

Wilt has the statistical advantage over over pretty much everyone ever no matter the situation doesnt he?

32Dayz

01-31-2012, 07:22 AM

Wilt definitely played good in many games and series in the post season where his team was eliminated in.

In those games and series they lost because either the opposing team was better then his team as a whole or because his supporting cast played poorly.

He should not be blamed for those losses but praised for his excellent play in defeat.

:rockon:

jlauber

01-31-2012, 07:23 AM

32Dayz

01-31-2012, 07:25 AM

Real quickly, (and I will post the "must-win" and clinching games later), Kareem shot .481 and .457 against Wilt in their two H2H playoff series (in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574.) Bellamy shot .421 in the 67-68 playoffs against Wilt, in a season in which he shot .541 from the floor.

I dont think anyone would be surprised that he dominated his opponents.
You almost say it like we should be surprised.

Back then there were very few Centers on par with Wilt and obviously he is one of the greatest Centers ever.

This is especially true when you just look at his size and athleticism... he was so far beyond anyone back then.

jlauber

01-31-2012, 07:30 AM

I dont think anyone would be surprised that he dominated his opponents.
You almost say it like we should be surprised.

Back then there were very few Centers on par with Wilt and obviously he is one of the greatest Centers ever.

This is especially true when you just look at his size and athleticism... he was so far beyond anyone back then.

Chamberlain, in his prime, faced guys like 6-10 Russell (with his 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping ability), 6-11 Nate Thurmond (who had a longer wingsan that Wilt's 7-8), and 6-11 Walt Bellamy. Keep in mind that those players were all measured in barefeet, and would be around 7-0 now. He also faced many other 6-11 and even some 7-0 footers (Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, 7-3 Swede Halbrook, Walter Dukes, and some others.)

Later in his career he more than held his own against 7-2 Kareem, 6-11 Bob Lanier, and even 7-2 Artis Gilmore (the two met in the 71-72 NBA-ABA all-star game.)

Kblaze8855

01-31-2012, 07:31 AM

32Dayz

01-31-2012, 07:32 AM

Chamberlain, in his prime, faced guys like 6-10 Russell (with his 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping ability), 6-11 Nate Thurmond (who had a longer wingsan that Wilt's 7-8), and 6-11 Walt Bellamy. Keep in mind that those players were all measured in barefeet, and would be around 7-0 now. He also faced many other 6-11 and even some 7-0 footers (Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, 7-3 Swede Halbrook, Walter Dukes, and some others.)

Later in his career he more than held his own against 7-2 Kareem, 6-11 Bob Lanier, and even 7-2 Artis Gilmore (the two met in the 71-72 NBA-ABA all-star game.)

I dont think Wilts competition at his position was super-lative in his early years.

Russell was a great opponent as was Thurmond and obviously later on Kareem and Artis would be great opponents.

Still overall I dont think his competition really measured up to him and against most teams his advantage in skill and especially athleticism would be pronounced and huge.

He proved himself against great players though
(none better then Russell defensively) so it really didn't matter.

jlauber

01-31-2012, 07:43 AM

As I said...bellamy and a couple others. but most of the best bigmen wouldnt shoot that anyway. I believe Wilt set the all time record 3-4 times and it was like 52% and 54% and so on before it climed int othe 60s and 70s later. People didnt shoot 50% on a regular basis then. MVP bigmen might shoot 43%. just feels cheap talking about his opponents not shooting 50% when they shoot in the 30s and 40s anyway.

Regardless, Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers WAY below their normal FG%'s in his post-season career. Several by around 100 points, or more. I have already given you Wilt holding Kareem to .481 and .457 in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574; as well as Bellamy's .421 in a season in which he shot .541.

But, he held Kerr to .296 in one playoff series, in a season in which Kerr shot .392. He held Russell to .358 shooting in the '67 ECF's, in a season in which Russell shot .454. He also held Thurmond to .343 shooting the Finals that season, in a season in which Nate shot .437.

In fact, he outshot Thurmond, in their three playoff series, by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and .560 to .343.

The bottom line was that Chamberlain was DRAMATICALLY reducing his opposing centers efficiency in the post-season. Which is often over-looked in these discussions of Wilt's supposed "decline" in the post-season.

jlauber

01-31-2012, 07:54 AM

BTW, Julizaver, whose research has proven to be dead-on now that we have the boxscores of every NBA game...

claims that in Wilt's NINE game-seven's, Chamberlain averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot, get this... .626 from the field, which is the highest among the all-time "greats."

Factor in Wilt's 56-35 game five of a best-of-series, and his 53-22 game three of a best-of-three series, and his scoring numbers would be at 29.9 ppg in his eleven "best-of-series" games, while he also would have averaged 26.6 rpg. True, his FG% would have dropped with a total shooting percentage of .511 in those two other elimination games, but he still would have been around 60%.

Think about that...in Wilt's 11 games in which it went down to the wire in the "best of" series (nine game seven's, and one game five of a best-of-five, and one game three of a best-of-three series), all Chamberlain could do was average 29.9 ppg , 26.6 rpg, and shoot about .600 (in leagues that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Or nearly a 30-27 .600 average game in EVERY "must-win" "best-of" game.

Yep...that was Wilt the "choker."

Asukal

01-31-2012, 09:59 AM

32Dayz

01-31-2012, 10:10 AM

You'd deliberately start a thread about Wilt just so you can continue posting your essays which nobody reads.... that's sad man, real sad. Wilt is universally accepted as top 1-5 player all time, get over it and start acting your age. :facepalm

Whats the big deal.

It's not like the board is flooded with Wilt threads.

Not many people know as much about Wilt as Lauber so I dont mind him sharing his knowledge.

Dont be so butthurt.

Asukal

01-31-2012, 10:25 AM

Whats the big deal.

It's not like the board is flooded with Wilt threads.

Not many people know as much about Wilt as Lauber so I dont mind him sharing his knowledge.

Dont be so butthurt.

He claims people disrespect Wilt and call him a loser and a choker which isn't true. He can't seem to understand people troll him just for the heck of it, and like a fish he bites the bait everytime. He is always insecure and has this abnormal need to defend him even when no one is attacking Wilt (remember he started this thread). Its just pathetic and sad a man his age would go to such lengths. :facepalm

Deuce Bigalow

01-31-2012, 02:09 PM

What's his FT%

La Frescobaldi

01-31-2012, 03:59 PM

I remember Wilt Chamberlain in the 70s, after he retired he said a few times that the best basketball player he ever saw was Meadowlark Lemon in the 50s. Wilt played one game after he retired, and it was for Meadowlark's team the Bucketeers....

Meadowlark's comment from about 2003 or 04:
http://blackpressusa.com/news/Article.asp?SID=4&Title=Departments&NewsID=8113

OBSERVER: I know you are a fan of the NBA. Name your all-time former NBA players and your favorite current NBA player?
"ML: Oh gosh, there are too many of them! You have the

32jazz

01-31-2012, 06:52 PM

You'd deliberately start a thread about Wilt just so you can continue posting your essays which nobody reads.... that's sad man, real sad. Wilt is universally accepted as top 1-5 player all time, get over it and start acting your age. :facepalm

There is still much misinformation spread about Wilt & it's refreshing to hear some facts about him from time to time instead of another Kobe thread.

Tim Legler just spread a ball face lie about Wilt dominating "6'7 guys" a few weeks back:facepalm

Wilt actually had a much smaller size advantage at Center than Magic at pg or even MJ/Drexler at SG especially during most of the 80's.

I believe centers have always averaged about 6'10 in this League, but People keep spreading that myth.

HurricaneKid

01-31-2012, 07:01 PM

Deuce Bigalow

01-31-2012, 07:03 PM

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7296/28615355ddnbgli.jpg

32jazz

01-31-2012, 07:22 PM

Keep in mind how much smaller the league was too. I mean when he came in there were 8 teams. That he "ONLY" faced 3 HoF centers during that time meant he played against one 3/7 nights. Imagine how much harder it would be in the league if the bottom 75% of the league evaporated. Those teams would be stacked and it would be so much harder to achieve statistical levels seen today.

Exactly.

But I wasn't trying to change the subject of this thread(Wilt in close out games) but simply show how much misinformation there is.

Wilt did have to play HOF guys like Russell, Bellamy, Nate Thurmond,etc... As many as 7 or 8 times in the regular season alone. Not many off nights.

The_Yearning

01-31-2012, 07:26 PM

Buddy, nobody on this board has ever seen Wilt play or gives a damn.

millwad

01-31-2012, 07:33 PM

Buddy, nobody on this board has ever seen Wilt play or gives a damn.

The guy himself never saw Wilt play either. He found his love for Wilt just a couple of years ago and he's like 56 years old.

He used to post stuff about the modern era players being better, that Wilt faced weak competition and that the player modern era players are more athletic but then he got insecure and went all troll regarding Wilt.

He claims he remembers 40+ year old games but still the old fart changed his mind COMPLETELY about Wilt and his era just some years ago over some youtube-clips, quotes and reports..:facepalm

32jazz

01-31-2012, 08:22 PM

Buddy, nobody on this board has ever seen Wilt play or gives a damn.

Seems like some of the best posters on this board cared & had thoughtful posts.

If you & your loser buddies don't care why bother posting?:confusedshrug:

I would like to learn more facts about Wilt instead of misinformation.

millwad

01-31-2012, 09:18 PM

Seems like some of the best posters on this board cared & had thoughtful posts.

If you & your loser buddies don't care why bother posting?:confusedshrug:

I would like to learn more facts about Wilt instead of misinformation.

Then go and learn from someone who actually saw Wilt play and not some old fart who later in life got some fetisch about Wilt.

And he's the last guy you should listen to if you don't like to get misinformed..

jlauber

01-31-2012, 10:36 PM

The guy himself never saw Wilt play either. He found his love for Wilt just a couple of years ago and he's like 56 years old.

He used to post stuff about the modern era players being better, that Wilt faced weak competition and that the player modern era players are more athletic but then he got insecure and went all troll regarding Wilt.

He claims he remembers 40+ year old games but still the old fart changed his mind COMPLETELY about Wilt and his era just some years ago over some youtube-clips, quotes and reports..:facepalm

This coming from the same CLOWN who OBVIOUSLY NEVER saw Hakeem play. The same Dickwad who claimed that Hakeem never guarded Kareem in Kareem's MULTIPLE 40+ point games (at age 38 BTW...when he could barely get 6 rpg.)

The same idiot who argued that Barkley did NOT outrebound Hakeem by FOUR rpg in the 96-97 season.

Yep...the same pathetic moron who who can't remember anything from 15 years ago...

jlauber

01-31-2012, 10:43 PM

What's his FT%

Look it up. And while you are at, take a look at the HUGE margin in BOTH FTAs and FTs MADE that Wilt had over his opposing centers, AND, the MASSIVE margin that his TEAM's had in both in the post-season.

Chamberlain CRIPPLED opposing players and teams in the post-season from the line.

In any case, you have read my posts on his post-seasons thru the '64-65 season. Please give us your take. Keep in mind that Wilt joined a LAST PLACE team in his rookie season, played with arguably the worst rosters in NBA history in 62-63 thru the first half of the '64-65 season...AND, those surrounding players then played WORSE in the post-season. And yet, Wilt took two of those rosters to game seven losses, by margins of two and one point, against the HOF-laden Celtics. And, he took a roster that couldn't beat some scrubs in a pre-season scrimmage (without Wilt, of course) to the Finals in the '64 season.

millwad

01-31-2012, 10:56 PM

This coming from the same CLOWN who OBVIOUSLY NEVER saw Hakeem play. The same Dickwad who claimed that Hakeem never guarded Kareem in Kareem's MULTIPLE 40+ point games (at age 38 BTW...when he could barely get 6 rpg.)

The same idiot who argued that Barkley did NOT outrebound Hakeem by FOUR rpg in the 96-97 season.

Yep...the same pathetic moron who who can't remember anything from 15 years ago...

Haha, what an idiot. How can you be so happy over the fact that I missed out on 2-3 games from Akeem's rookie and 2nd year as a pro season. In games that didn't matter.

And you're still the same idiot who can't read, I mixed up years regarding Barkley outrebounding Hakeem in '97. And both things are things I made clear I was wrong about. And there's a fine line between you and me, I am a FAN but you're just obsessed.. And I have still seen way more Hakeem games then you've seen Wilt games, youtube-boy.

By the way, do you remember that list you tried to make up with all the big guys Wilt faced during his career? The self-proclaimed Wilt historian is so full of crap that he even put up players Wilt never faced in his career(ABA-players, players who still was in college and other ABA-players who never even played NBA games). It later came to light that Jlauber had copied that list, like everything else he calls "knowledge"..:facepalm

You've been exposed so many times, Jlauber. All you do is google your info, you didn't even have the same opinions you have regarding Wilt just a few years ago. More then 40+ years the actual games took part, you changed your mind over youtube, google and quotes..

You're discussing games you only know about thanks to google and books more then 40 years after actual games were played.. And fact still remains that you changed your mind about Wilt and his era due youtube and google.. :facepalm

L8kersfan222

01-31-2012, 11:11 PM

lebron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wilt

jlauber

01-31-2012, 11:21 PM

Exactly.

But I wasn't trying to change the subject of this thread(Wilt in close out games) but simply show how much misinformation there is.

Wilt did have to play HOF guys like Russell, Bellamy, Nate Thurmond,etc... As many as 7 or 8 times in the regular season alone. Not many off nights.

In the 59-60 season, Chamberlain and Russell faced off 11 times in the regular season, and then again six more times in the post-season. And, had they each not missed a game during the regular season, they would have met 13 times.

The two went at it 13 times in the 60-61 regular season.

In the 61-62 season, they battled 10 times in the regular season (and had Russell not missed two games, it would have been 12.) Then they went to a game seven in the ECF's.

In the 64-65 season, they met 11 times in the regular season, and then another seven times in the ECF's.

BTW, in Chamberlain's 65-66 season, he met Thurmond in nine games (Nate missed one), Bellamy in ten games, and Russell in ten reguar season games (and five more in the playoffs.)

Incidently, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg against Russell, 28.9 ppg against Thurmond, and 33.0 ppg against Bellamy. Including his last game of the '65 season against Nate, in which he scored 34 points, he averaged 29.4 ppg against Thurmond in ten straight games...including two of 33, one of 34, one of 38, and a staggering 45 point game against him (outscoring him by a 45-13 margin.)

Against Bellamy he had games of 34, 34, 35, 37, 38, and 50. He battered Russell with four games of 30+ in the regular season, with a high game of 37, and then pounded him with a 46 point game in the clinching game five loss of the ECF's. In those 28 regular season games against Thurmond, Bellamy, and Russell, he was outscored in TWO games (and then Russell managed to outscore him in one playoff game.) And in MANY of them, he just BURIED those guys.

Domination? In Wilt's 64-65 season, he faced HOFer Willis Reed in nine games, and had games of 29, 30, 36, 37, 37, 41, 41, 52, and 58 points. Or 40 ppg in an entire SEASON against him.

How about Wilt's 62-63 season against Bellamy? He averaged 43.7 ppg against him in their ten regular season games.

It was even worse in the 61-62 season, when he averaged an eye-popping 52.7 ppg against Bellamy in their ten regular season games!

Of course, Chamberlain had two entire seasons of averaging 38 ppg against Russell, as well as another at 35.5 ppg.

jlauber

02-01-2012, 02:11 AM

Continuing...

65-66. In the clinching game five loss of the ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, 46-18, and outrebounded him, 34-31. He also shot 19-34 from the floor (albeit, only 8-25 from the line.)

Comments: During the regular season, Chamberlain led the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; averaged 5.2 apg; and set a then-record .540 FG% mark that he would shatter the very next season. All while leading his Sixers to the best record in the league, at 55-25 (edging the seven-time defending champion Celtics, who finished 54-26.)

Interesting too, was the fact that Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg and 30.7 rpg against Russell during the regular season (Russell was at 11.7 ppg and 22.8 rpg.) In the ECF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field against Russell and the Celtics (Russell scored 14.0 ppg and grabbed 26.2 rpg.) So, Chamberlain played almost the exact same way as he did during the regular season...and yet...his Sixers were stomped, 4-1. What changed? How about the fact that Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot .352 from the floor?

66-67. In the game four clinching win over the Royals in the first round of the playoffs, Wilt played arguably his worst game of that series. He scored 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds, and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, scored 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds.

Comments: In that first round of the playoffs, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg (yes, a triple double series), on .612 shooting. In the first game of the series, Chamberlain poured in 41 points (which was Philly's post-season high game that year), on 19-30 shooting, with 22 rebounds. In game two, Wilt hung a 37 point game, on 16-24 shooting, with 27 rebounds. And in game three, Wilt put up a 16-30-19 triple double game (the 19 assists were a playoff record at the time.) Oh, and how did Chamberlain's opposing center perform in that series? Dierking averaged 17.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, and shot .427 from the floor.

ECF's. In the clinching game five win, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 29-4; outshot Russell from the floor, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, by a staggering 36-21 margin. And Wilt also blocked seven shots, as well.

Comments: Wilt just crushed Russell in every facet of the game in that series. He outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 to 10.2 ppg. He outrebounded Russell by a whopping 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin. He outassisted Russell, per game, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg (yes, another triple double series.) And he outshot Russell by a .556 to .358 margin. In game one of the series, Chamberlain hung a quad-double of 24-32-13-12. And in game three, Wilt set a post-season record by grabbing 41 rebounds (Russell had 29.)

Finals. In the clinching game six win, Chamberlain outscored Thurmond, 24-12; outrtebounded Nate, 24-23; and outshot Thurmond from the floor, 8-13 to 4-13. And, in the waning seconds, with the Sixers leading by one point, Chamberlain jumped out on Rick Barry, who was then going to pass to Thurmond, but Wilt quickly adjusted, and Barry had to fling up a hopeless shot, and the Sixers went on to win 125-122.

Comments: Wilt outscored Thurmond, per game, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg. He outrebounded Nate, per game, 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg (and he outrebounded Thurmond in five of the six games, including one game by a 38-31 margin.) And, amazingly, he outshot Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin.

For the entire post-season in that 66-67 season, Wilt averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and shot .579 from the field.

To be continued...

millwad

02-01-2012, 05:07 AM

Don't you ever get tired of writing all those essays while not getting any response because no one reads them? Or do you just google them like everything else you put up, google boy?

jlauber

02-01-2012, 07:03 AM

Don't you ever get tired of writing all those essays while not getting any response because no one reads them? Or do you just google them like everything else you put up, google boy?

Not true. I KNOW that YOU do. I can count on that.

32Dayz

02-01-2012, 07:06 AM

Millwad has no life, he reads long essays about Wilt and then rages about them.

:lol

La Frescobaldi

02-01-2012, 10:00 AM

jlauber

02-01-2012, 10:28 AM

I love readin about the old school hoping to see the game ender information soon!!
I can remember him dropping finger rolls at the end of games as a Laker but not to talk about a specific game though and not so sure they were so-called game winners.... Russell when he was doing color in the 70s talked about game winners his view was considerably different from today

Well, from what has been posted here recently, Chamberlain had up to 15 actual game-winning shots, which would put him behind only Kareem, of the great centers, all-time. And Kareem played six seasons longer than Chamberlain did.

These "choker" MYTHS, perpetrated by the likes of the ignorant Bill Simmons, have just been blown to bits. And once again, the "Wilt-bashers" NEVER bring up the performances of Chamberlain's OPPOSING centers in Wilt's post-season play. Wilt generally DOMINATED his opposition in the playoffs, ESPECIALLY in BIG "must-win" games.

millwad

02-01-2012, 02:55 PM

Millwad has no life, he reads long essays about Wilt and then rages about them.

:lol

Haha, it's so lame that you say that I don't have a life when you post like 20 times more than me per day and that you in just a few months put up more posts then what I've done in 5 years.

You need to grow up, Brian.

32Dayz

02-01-2012, 02:58 PM

Haha, it's so lame that you say that I don't have a life when you post like 20 times more than me per day and that you in just a few months put up more posts then what I've done in 5 years.

You need to grow up, Brian.

Are you joking?

You write a fake story about me and photoshop 1000 different pictures with some googled Asian kids face and you tell me to grow up?

Sorry but you cant do sh** like that and then pretend to be mature and give me advice.

:facepalm

Deuce Bigalow

02-01-2012, 02:59 PM

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash2/369777_1456960650_1039750673_n.jpg

Add me on facebook pls man

PTB Fan

02-01-2012, 03:08 PM

Wilt's numbers will always look good, because that's what he cared for. He was an individual at first, team player second to the half of his career. It's no surprise his biggest team success came in the second part of his career when he was playing for the team.

He's got a legit case for GOAT. Now, is it better than the other candidates for the GOAT honor? IMO, not when compared to few guys. That's it.

millwad

02-01-2012, 03:11 PM

Are you joking?

You write a fake story about me and photoshop 1000 different pictures with some googled Asian kids face and you tell me to grow up?

Sorry but you cant do sh** like that and then pretend to be mature and give me advice.

:facepalm

Haha, Brian.
I haven't photoshopped your pic even once, I have just posted your picture from the facebook-link you messaged me. Back then you weren't a troll and you begged me to add you on facebook you lonely kid. Mr "I just have internetfriends" and lets not forget that you have like 5 ISH accounts you lame lonely kid.

32Dayz

02-01-2012, 03:17 PM

Haha, Brian.
I haven't photoshopped your pic even once, I have just posted your picture from the facebook-link you messaged me. Back then you weren't a troll and you begged me to add you on facebook you lonely kid.

I have never once pm'd you or tried to talk to you outside of us arguing about Kobe or Wilt inside the forum in threads.

Any evidence that I tried to contact you, or PM you?
Any actual evidence that the person in the picture is me besides a madeup story you wrote?

No one believes you except for certain Trolls who use the picture to try and upset me although I dont understand why you think a picture of a random googled Asian kid would upset me.

Anyway keep being your same stupid self you'll never change, or make friends, or not be obese.

You're a failure in life and on this forum.

:lol

millwad

02-01-2012, 03:31 PM

I have never once pm'd you or tried to talk to you outside of us arguing about Kobe or Wilt inside the forum in threads.

Any evidence that I tried to contact you, or PM you?
Any actual evidence that the person in the picture is me besides a madeup story you wrote?

No one believes you except for certain Trolls who use the picture to try and upset me although I dont understand why you think a picture of a random googled Asian kid would upset me.

Anyway keep being your same stupid self you'll never change, or make friends, or not be obese.

You're a failure in life and on this forum.

:lol

Brian, you have multiple accounts and you're considered to be troll who gets owned time after time. You PM'd me about being lonely, how sad can someone be, you have multiple accounts but still you average almost 20 posts per day on your current account. I know I shouldn't have exposed you and your facebook pic like this but you troll'd too much. And haha, so lame that you set your profile to private after we owned you.. We consumed your life, dude..

When I exposed you, Brian, you got so owned that you even got banned, we all know you're just some lame asian kid without friends sitting at home 24/7 hanging on ISh. You're lonely as a stray dog..:facepalm

Deuce Bigalow

02-01-2012, 03:32 PM

Brian, you have multiple accounts and you're considered to be troll who gets owned time after time. You PM'd me about being lonely, how sad can someone be, you have multiple accounts but still you average almost 20 posts per day on your current account. I know I shouldn't have exposed you and your facebook pic like this but you troll'd too much. And haha, so lame that you set your profile to private after we owned you.. We consumed your life, dude..

When I exposed you, Brian, you got so owned that you even got banned, we all know you're just some lame asian kid without friends sitting at home 24/7 hanging on ISh. You're lonely as a stray dog..:facepalm
:roll: :roll: :roll:

32Dayz

02-01-2012, 03:34 PM

:blah

I am not Asian, I live in the US and I have plenty of good friends.

You just come on here to get owned by JLauber, rage about his essays then leave and come back 15 minutes to do the same thing.

You are probably fat and I'd say its a 95% chance you live in your mothers basement.

I have never PM'd you or ever wanted to be your friend although you may like to imagine I would be since you most likely have none of your own and certainly none on this forum.

Peace. :applause:

Deuce Bigalow

02-01-2012, 03:36 PM

Live in the US? :lol
What time is it it Denver right now? Orlando? LA? New York?

jlauber

02-02-2012, 04:29 AM

The "Wilt-bashers" love to point out Chamberlain's three year period from '67-68 thru '69-70. They blame WILT for his Sixers "blowing" a 3-1 series lead in the '68 ECF's. Or a supposedly "stacked" Laker team losing to an old Celtic team in '69 (and with Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of that game seven.) Or Wilt supposedly being "outplayed" by a "crippled" Reed in game seven of the '70 Finals.

I have covered those MYTHS many times, but here we go again.

67-68. First round of the playoffs. In the clinching game six win of the Knicks-Sixers series, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, 25-19 to go along with 27 rebounds, in a 113-97 romp.

Comments: The 62-20 Sixers, who once again obliterated the NBA during the regular season, lost HOFer Billy Cunningham in game four of the first round, and he would not return the rest of the playoffs. Even without him, and on a team that did not have much depth, they won easily won the last two games of the series. And all Chamberlain did in the series, was to lead BOTH teams in scoring, at 25.5 ppg, rebounding, at 24.2 rpg, AND assists, at 6.3 apg. He also reduced Bellamy, who had shot .541 during the regular season, to a .421 brick-layer in the series. For the series, Bellamy averaged 20.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and 3.5 apg.

Another sidenote...Wilt played every minute of the series, which included three games in three straight days.

ECF's. In game seven, Wilt outscored Russell, 14-12, and outrebounded him, 34-26, in a 100-96 loss. Still, he only shot 4-9 from the field, and an even worse 6-15 from the line.

Comments: Yes, Wilt's Sixers lost a 3-1 series lead, but to say that they "blew it" was a complete joke. The Sixers, who just waltzed thru the regular season, were nowhere near the same team that lost a game seven by four points to the Celtics. I already mentioned the loss of Cunningham in the first round against the Knicks. Then, in game five, BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones suffered leg injuries. And, once again, as talented as that Sixer team was, they were not a deep team (unlike the Celtics, who could go ten deep.)

Furthermore, Chamberlain came into the playoffs at less than 100%, and was nursing a strained hamstring, arthristis in his knee, a bum toe, and then a partial tear in his right calf, which had him NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru the rest of the series. Even Russell commented that a "lessor man would not have played." Even more remarkable was the fact that Wilt played every minute of every game of the playoffs.

His Sixers, without Cunningham, and then Jackson and Jones in game five, were routed 122-104. It was still a close game with about ten minutes left, and Philly holding an 81-79 lead, but the depleted Sixers shot 2-20 down the stretch. However, Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell in that game, despite being noticeably hobbled, outscoring him, 28-8, and outrebounding him, 30-24.

Jackson and Jones were injured and basically worthless. In game six, a 114-106 loss, Jackson was able to score 10 points, but Jones could hardly play, and did not score. The "anti-Chamberlain clan" pointed out that Wilt had a poor game six, scoring 20 points on 6-21 shooting from the floor, and 8-23 from the line...and it was one of his worst playoff games of his career...but he did manage to pull down 27 rebounds.

Of course, we KNOW that players like Willis Reed and Kareem would not have even PLAYED under the same conditions. Yet, here was Wilt, at far less than 100%, gutting out a 48 minute performance.

In that game seven, four point loss, the Chamberlain critics, like Simmons, point out that Wilt only took two shots in the second half, both on offensive rebounds. BUT, the real question had to be why Wilt's teammates completely ignored Chamberlain in that second half. Wilt routinely touched the ball about 15 times at the offensive end, per quarter during the season, however, he only got seven touches in the third quarter, and then only those two offensive tips in the 4th quarter.

Meanwhile, Greer shot 8-25; Chet Walker 8-22 (and an even worse 4-14 in the second half); Guokas 2-10; and the hobbled Wali Jones was at 8-22. While Wilt shot 4-9, his teammates collectively shot .333...all while ignoring him in that second half.

Some have argued that Wilt should have DEMANDED the ball. Obviously, in retrospect, he SHOULD have. BUT, where was his COACH? Hannum was one of the best coaches of all-time, but in this game he was awful. Furthermore, given all of the criticsim that Chamberlain had received earlier in his career, for being a "selfish ball-hog", one can only imagine the public outcry after the game, had Wilt been yelling at his teammates to get him "the damn ball."

For the series, Wilt averaged 22.1 ppg, 25.4 rpg, and 6.7 apg. Russell did play brilliantly, ... some called it his greatest post-season series against Wilt...and he averaged 11.6 ppg and 23.9 rpg. Still, Wilt was nowhere near 100%, and he certainly was not outplayed.

Of course, had the Sixers been as healthy as they were in the 66-67 season, there was no question that they would have repeated their 4-1 blowout series win in the prior season. The Wilt-bashers never mention that fact, nor the fact that Wilt was PLAYING when virtually no other player would have been.

jlauber

02-03-2012, 04:57 AM

Wilt's 68-69 post-season was easily the worst of his career. The obvious reason was the fact that he had the worst COACH of his career. Butch Van Breda Kolf despised Chamberlain from the first day that Wilt joined the team, and really had no clue how to use him. He asked Wilt to sacrifice his offense so that a declining Baylor could continue to fire away. He Chamberlain playing the high post for a chunk of the season so that Elgin could roam the baseline. And, he even BENCHED Wilt during some of the games in that season.

Wilt's scoring dropped to a career low (at the time), from a previous low of 24.1 ppg, down to 20.5 ppg. At the mid-way point in the season, Chamberlain was down to 17 ppg. It got so bad that SI was set to run an article in which the author claimed that Wilt could no longer effectively score. That was all Chamberlain needed to get out of his season-long funk. He exploded for a 60 point game the night before the article hit the newstand, and a few days later he followed it up with a 66 point outburst. Both were eaily season highs in the NBA.

In fact, over the course of 17 straight games, Chamberlain terrorized the opposing centers in the league. Included in that streak were games of 30 against Elvin Hayes; 23 against Nate Thurmond; 33 and 32 against Bob Rule (who was an exceptional player in the league for three years before injuries runined his career in the early 70's); 31 against Willis Reed; and 35 against Bill Russell, which was his highest game against Russell since his 46 point game against him in the clinching game five loss of the '66 ECF's.

And later in the season, Wilt crushed the eventual MVP (and ROY) Wes Unseld, by outscoring him 25-4, and outrebounding him, 38-9. Just the game before that, Wilt murdered Russell on the glass, with an NBA season game of 42 rebounds (Russell only had 18.) And near the end of the season, Wilt led LA to an eye-brow raising 108-73 win over the Celtics in a nationally televised game in BOSTON. In fact, the Lakers easily won the season series against Boston, 4-2.

Unfortunately, when the playoffs began, it was back to Van Breda Kolf's offensive philosophy...which seldom involved Wilt. Chamberlain averaged a by-far worst (at the time) 13.9 ppg in the post-season, albeit on .545 shooting from the floor. Meanwhile, Baylor was just awful in the playoffs, averaging 15.4 ppg on a team-worst .385 from the floor.

How perplexing was Van Breda Kolf's philosophy? He was credited with this baffling quote, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."

68-69. In the first round of the playoffs, and against Thurmond, the 55-27 Lakers dug themselves a 2-0 hole, but roared back to win the next four straight, including a 118-78 rout in Oakland in game four. In that game clinching game six Wilt, who hardly shot at all in the series, still outscored Thurmond, 11-8. I couldn't pull up their shooting percentages or rebounding numbers from that one single game, but Julizaver did list their totals below.

Comments: Once again, the Warriors eked out two straight wins in the first two games, but the Lakers dominated the rest of the series. Thurmond did manage to outscore Chamberlain, per game, 16.7 ppg to 12.0 ppg, but as always, Wilt held a massive edge in FG% in that series, .500 to .392. In fact, in their three post-season H2H series, Wilt outshot Nate, .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and a staggering .560 to .343. Chamberlain also pounded Thurmond on the glass in this series, 23.5 rpg to 19.5 rpg.

WCF's. In one of the rare occasions in Wilt's post-season career, he was outscored by an opposing center in a clinching game. Zelmo Beaty, who was a five-time all-star in his career, outscored Wilt in the game five loss to Wilt and his Lakers, 30-16.

Comments: For the series, Beaty averaged 24.2 ppg to Wilt's 19.2 ppg. I couldn't come up with either of their FG%'s, nor Beaty's rebounding numbers, but Chamberlain averaged 25.6 rpg in the series.

Finals. Wilt watched the last five minutes of the game seven, two-point loss, against Russell's Celtics, from the bench. Despite playing five minutes less than Russell (48 to 43), Chamberlain outscored Russell, 18-6; outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21.

Comments: Thanks to the inept coaching of Van Breda Kolf, and the usual solid defense by Russell, Wilt only averaged 11.7 ppg in the Finals. He still outscored Russell, 11.7 ppg to 9.1 ppg, but obviously that was well below Wilt's regular season average of 20.5 ppg (and his regular season average of 16.3 ppg against Russell.) He did outrebound Russell, 25.0 rpg to 22.1 rpg.

I have covered this series many times, but essentially LA was ONE PLAY away from winning the series, 4-1. The Lakers were leading the series, two games to one, and were winning game four in Boston, 88-87, and with the ball in the waning seconds. All guard Johnny Egan had to do was dribble out the clock (and BTW, why was Egan handling the ball, and not West?) Instead, he was stripped of the ball, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game-winning shot (the first of TWO miraculous game-winning shots by Celtic players in the series.) Given the fact that the Lakers, behind Wilt's best game of the series in game five, easily won game five, 117-104...that ONE PLAY (followed by that miraculous game-winner) prevented the Lakers from a 4-1 series romp.

There were MANY other reasons for that Laker series loss, too. Baylor went AWOL in games three thru five (and two of them close losses), scoring a TOTAL of 24 points. He and West, who was the Finals MVP, combined for 1-14 shooting in the 4th quarter of game three (a six point loss.) And in game seven, Baylor shot 8-22 from the floor in that two point loss.

Of course, the REAL reason why LA did not win that series, was the incompetent coaching of Van Breda Kolf. His offensive stategy was horrible and predictable, and his biggest blunder was leaving Chamberlain on the bench for the last five minutes of game seven.

And a quick recap of that game seven. The proud Celtics came out on fire, and and they were firmly in control with a little over 10 minutes left in the game, with their 17 point lead. Then, the Lakers mounted a furious comeback. With about six minutes left, Chamberlain went up for a defensive rebound, which led to a fastbreak basket, cutting the Celtic lead down to nine points, but came down awkwardly, and injured his knee. He hobbled around for another series, and again grabbed another defensive rebound, which led to two West FTs, and now a seven point deficit.

LA had cut the margin, from 17, down to 7, with a little over five minutes left. However, Wilt HAD to come out.

Now, the Wilt-bashers, including the idiotic Simmons (and even Charley Rosen, whose take on that series was WAY off), claimed that Wilt pulled himself out because he was fearful of being on the floor in yet another series loss to Russell. However, think about just how ridiculous that assertion was. Why would Wilt take himself out, in the middle of a Laker run that had wiped out ten points of a Celtic lead in about six minutes, and with a little over five minutes remaining? If he had truly been "afraid" of another supposed embarrassing loss, why didn't he "feign" an injury much earlier in the quarter, when the Lakers were down by as much as 17 points.

Furthermore, the aged Celtics were running on fumes by that point in the game. The Lakers actually pulled to within one point (103-102), but ran out of time (and Don Nelson hit what was ultimately the game-winner, when his shot hit the back of the rim, bounced about six feet up, and came straight down into the hoop.)

And Wilt's "replacement", the great Mel Counts, missed a key shot late (as well as committing a turnover in the last two minutes), and overall shot 4-13 from the floor.

Russell stunned Wilt after the game, claiming that anything short of a broken leg was incusible. He even suggested that Wilt might have been faking the injury.

Several points about Russell's comments. One, where was Russell in that 4th quarter? True, he played all 12 minutes, but he was nowhere to be found. In fact, Wilt had as many rebounds, on those two plays with his injured leg, as Russell did in the entire period (and Wilt outrebounded Russell in the entire quarter, 7-2, despite missing the last five minutes.)

Two, even Wilt's COACH, who hated Chamberlain, came to Wilt's defense, saying that Wilt was hurt.

Three, how could Russell possibly suggest that Wilt, the game's greatest "iron man" would not be injured? Just in the previous year's ECF's alone, Wilt PLAYED every minute of every game of the series, and with several injuries, including a torn calf. And Wilt had a history of playing games throughout his entire career with a variety of injuries, (even several in a row with a near-deadly infection, suffered by a deliberate elbow to his mouth.)

Four, how about Russell in the '58 Finals? He missed two entire games, and about half of the last game of the series, with a bone chip in his ankle...in a Finals loss.

And finally...Russell DID apologize...albeit, some 20 years later, and after the damage had been done to Wilt's reputation.

As for Wilt's coach...he was fired a short time after the series loss, and never came close to the same success that he had enjoyed WITH Chamberlain, again.

And Wilt's new coach, in the 69-70 season, asked Wilt to become the focal point of the Laker offense the very next season. Wilt responded by averaging 32.2 ppg in his first nine games (on about .600 shooting from the floor), but, unfortunately, in that ninth game, Wilt shredded the SAME knee that he injured in that game seven, and was never the same again.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:15 AM

Once again, Chamberlain played in a total of 11 post-season games in which the series went to the limit. He played in nine game seven's, in best-of-seven series; one game five, in a best-of-five playoff series; and one game three in a best-of-three series.

Julizaver posted Wilt's numbers in his game seven's, which were these: 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and an eye-popping .626 from the field (87-139 in those nine game seven's.) In my research, I could not find Wilt's FG-FGA's in four of those games, game seven of the first round playoff series against St. Louis; his game seven of the '70 first round series against Phoenix (incidently, he led his team back from a 3-1 deficit to win that series); his game seven of the '71 playoff series against the Bulls; and his game seven of the '73 playoff series against the Bulls.

And here were Wilt's numbers in his game five of a best-of-five series: 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. And his numbers in his game three of a best-of-three series: 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds.

Overall, Chamberlain's averages in those 11 games were as follows:

29.9 ppg
26.7 rpg
.581 FG%

Here are his known numbers from those "absolute limit" games, as well as the known numbers by his starting opposing center in those 11 games.

1. 59-60 first round playoff series against Syracuse. Chamberlain had 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His starting opposing center was multiple All-Star Red Kerr, who had 7 points.

2. 61-62 first round playoff series against Syracuse. Wilt with 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points.

3. 61-62 ECF's against Boston. Wilt had 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds.

4. 63-64 playoffs against St. Louis. Chamberlain with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty (who would go on to become a multiple All-Star) had 10 points.

5. 64-65 ECF's against Boston. Chamberlain with a 30 point game, on 12-15 shooting from the floor, and 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds.

6. 67-68 ECF's against Boston. Wilt (who was playing with an assortment of injuries, including a torn calf) had 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds.

7. 68-69 Finals against Boston. Chamberlain, playing 43 minutes, had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting from the field, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds.

8. 69-70 first round playoffs against Phoenix. Wilt had 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocked shots. His opposing center, Jim Fox, had 7 points.

9. 69-70 Finals against NY. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. His opposing center, Willis Reed, had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds.

10. 70-71 first round of the playoffs against Chicago. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. His opposing center, 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points.

11. 72-73 first round of the playoffs against Chicago. Chamberlain with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

Chamberlain's TEAM's went 6-5 in those 11 games. And they lost four to the Celtic Dynasty by a TOTAL of NINE points (2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) Their other loss came in the '70 Finals against the Knicks. So, Wilt's TEAM's were a few points away from going 10-1 in his 11 "absolute limit" games.

Some other interesting facts. Wilt outscored his opposing center in ALL 11 games. And while I didn't get all of his opposing center's rebounding numbers in those 11 games, I am 99.9% certain that Wilt outrebounded his opposing center in ALL but one of those games as well (and in that game, he was outrebounded by Russell, 22-21...and BTW, Pollack had Wilt with 22 rebounds in that.) And given the fact that Wilt shot dramatically better in the known games, he probably outshot his opposing centers in the vast majority of them (Russell did outshoot him in one of the known games, by a 7-14 to 7-15 margin.) Finally, Wilt outscored his opposing centers in those 11 games by a 329 to 108 margin...or a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg differential per game.

Furthermore, in his five H2H "absolute limit" games against HOFers (4 against Russell, and 1 against Reed), Wilt outscored those guys, per game, by a 105-56 margin...or 21.0 ppg to 11.2 ppg. He outrebounded them, per game, by a 136-101 margin, or 27.2 rpg to 20.2 rpg. I don't have Russell's FG-FGA from the '68 game seven, so I can only post what I do have in terms of FG%. In those five games, Chamberlain shot 40-63 from the field, or .635. Russell and Reed shot a combined 18-42 in the known four games, or .429.

I'll post Wilt's and his opposing center's known numbers in all of his "must-win" and series clinching games next...

jlauber

02-05-2012, 03:59 AM

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 05:20 AM

So, Chamberlain played in 35 games in post-season career, in which his team either faced elimination, and/or, it was a clinching game of a series.

Contrary to popular belief, Wilt easily had a winning record in those games, going 24-11 in those 35 games.

And how about those 11 losses? His TEAM's lost those 11 games by margins of 2, 3, 2, 6, 1, 8, 4, 2, 14, 22, and 9 points. SIX of those 11 losses were by 4 points or less, and nine of them were by single digits. FOUR of them were by TWO points or less.

Interesting too, was the fact that most of those 24 wins were by comfortable margins. Those margins were by 20, 21, 17, 10, 10, 7, 6, 18, 24, 3, 16, 40, 19, 17, 11, 35, 19, 22, 11, 11, 4, 14, 3 and 10 points.

Chamberlain personally outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including his first 19 games, which covered his scoring seasons. In those 35 games, he faced Russell in 11 of those games, and outscored him ine EVERY one of them, including games of 30, 30, 30, 32, 46, and even 50 points on him. He faced Reed in two of them, outscoring him in both, and with games of 21 and 23 points. He faced Thurmond in three of them, outscoring him in two. He faced Bellamy in two, outscoring him in one. And he faced Kareem in two of them, splitting them 1-1.

Wilt averaged 37.3 ppg in the first 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from the 59-60 season thru the 65-66 season.)

Overall, Chamberlain averaged an even 27.0 ppg in the entire 35 games. His starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg. Keep in mind that he battled Russell, Thurmond, Kareem, Reed, and Bellamy in many of those games.

I came up with a known 28 games, out of the 35, in which I could find Wilt's rebounding totals. In those known 28 games, he averaged 26.1 rpg. I could only find his opposing starting center's rebounding totals in 19 of those games, and in those, Chamberlain held a 15-4 edge ( being outrebounded by Russell in one of them, 22-21, and 25-24 in another; and Kareem by margins of 15-12 and 25-24 in the other two.) In those 19 games, his opposing center averaged 18.9 rpg. Here again, that was ALL of Russell's games, and the known Kareem, Thurmond, and Reed games.

However, there was a HUGE possibility that not only did Wilt every one of the other 16 H2H games, many of them were probably by staggering margins. In any case, I feel comfortable in claiming that Wilt held at least a 30-5 margin in H2H rebounding with his starting centers in those 35 games (and quite possibly it was even a 32-3 margin.)

Since we know that Chamberlain shot 133 for 229 in his 11 "absolute limit" games, or .581, I went thru the rest of the 35 games to see how many more I could find in which we have Wilt's FG%. I found his other known FG-FGAs at 123 of 211. So, in the known games, Chamberlain shot 256-440 or .582.

In the known games by his opposing centers, they collectively shot 74-179, or .413 (again, in the known games.)

So, in the known games, Chamberlain outshot his opposing starting centers, .582 to .413. BTW, he faced Kareem in two of those "must-win" games, and held him to a combined 23-60, or .383!

The bottom line... we know that Chamberlain outscored his opposing centers in his entire 35 absolute elimination/clinching games, by a 27.0 ppg to 14.5
ppg margin. And he outscored them in 29 of his 35 games. In the known rebounding games, Chamberlain held a 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg edge (and if we had all of the totals it would have probably been by a considerably larger margin.) Furthermore, he held a 15-4 edge in those 19 games, and it probably would have been by at least a 30-5 margin had we had all of those games. And in the known FG% games, Wilt outshot his opposing centers by an astonishing .582 to .413 margin.

That was Wilt "the loser" and the "choker" in his "must-win", and/or "clinching game performances in his post-season career.

32Dayz

02-05-2012, 06:51 AM

http://images.wikia.com/fhif/images/d/d7/Wilt.png

jlauber

02-05-2012, 12:14 PM

The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

-23-

02-05-2012, 12:51 PM

jlauber

02-05-2012, 12:53 PM

Have you read Simmons book?

I read the entire Russell-Wilt chapter. It was a complete JOKE.

millwad

02-05-2012, 12:58 PM

I read the entire Russell-Wilt chapter. It was a complete JOKE.
Simmons claims that Wilt was gay.

-23-

02-05-2012, 12:58 PM

I read the entire Russell-Wilt chapter. It was a complete JOKE.

How exactly was it a joke when he pulled articles, quotes, and general observations from the game? I read his whole book, and I thought it was interesting to see what other players felt about Wilt. It seems only after he'd died that other players seemed to "respect" his game.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:00 PM

Simmons claims that Wilt was gay.

Even if it were true, and I seriously doubt it, so what? What did that have to do with Chamberlain's on court performances?

dunksby

02-05-2012, 01:05 PM

OP is butthurt but it does not change the fact that Kareem = GOAT

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:06 PM

How exactly was it a joke when he pulled articles, quotes, and general observations from the game? I read his whole book, and I thought it was interesting to see what other players felt about Wilt. It seems only after he'd died that other players seemed to "respect" his game.

He SELECTIVELY pulled quotes. Psileas, La Frescobaldi, and myself came up with a TON of quotes, from peers, and when Chamberlain was ALIVE, that ripped those quotes to shreds...many by the SAME players.

It has also become apparent that he blatantly LIED about the Lakers taking a team vote in 1965 against trading for Wilt. I have never found one shred of evidence that substantiates that point.

He also claimed that Wilt was twice "traded for pennies on the dollar."

Read MY take on that...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223621

Or that Russell played with about the same number of HOF teammates. The REALITY was, Russell played alongside his HOF teammates in 71 FULL seasons (both regular season and post-season), while Wilt collectively played 20 FULL seasons with his HOF teammates.

millwad

02-05-2012, 01:07 PM

Even if it were true, and I seriously doubt it, so what? What did that have to do with Chamberlain's on court performances?
Nothing.
Jlauber, just interested, if Wilt was alive now and lets say he was gay and interested in you, would you hook up with him?

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:10 PM

Nothing.
Jlauber, just interested, if Wilt was alive now and lets say he was gay and interested in you, would you hook up with him?

YOU were the one who brought it up...it seems like YOU would be more interested in that than I would.

-23-

02-05-2012, 01:11 PM

He SELECTIVELY pulled quotes. Psileas, La Frescobaldi, and myself came up with a TON of quotes, from peers, and when Chamberlain was ALIVE, that ripped those quotes to shreds...many by the SAME players.

It has also become apparent that he blatantly LIED about the Lakers taking a team vote in 1965 against trading for Wilt. I have never found one shred of evidence that substantiates that point.

He also claimed that Wilt was twice "traded for pennies on the dollar."

Read MY take on that...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223621

Or that Russell played with about the same number of HOF teammates. The REALITY was, Russell played alongside his HOF teammates in 71 FULL seasons (both regular season and post-season), while Wilt collectively played 20 FULL seasons with his HOF teammates.

Then what's with the conflicting quotes? :no: There was a recent article on NBA.com that basically echoed what Simmons was saying. Cherry picking "oh wilt was great" quotes isn't nearly as consistent as people who BAG on Wilt from quotes in the past, and quotes NOW.

Pushxx

02-05-2012, 01:17 PM

I have one question, jlauber: do you honestly think people who disagree with you read through even 20% of these long-ass posts?

millwad

02-05-2012, 01:17 PM

YOU were the one who brought it up...it seems like YOU would be more interested in that than I would.
I did not mean to offend you but you seem to have a crazy mancrush on him.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:18 PM

Then what's with the conflicting quotes? :no: There was a recent article on NBA.com that basically echoed what Simmons was saying. Cherry picking "oh wilt was great" quotes isn't nearly as consistent as people who BAG on Wilt from quotes in the past, and quotes NOW.

I am not going to take the time to look up quotes by peers that have bashed other "greats." Kareem, MJ, and Russell were certainly not well liked by at least some of their peers.

Oscar, West, and even Russell ALL proclaimed Chamberlain as the GOAT at some point BEFORE Wilt died. I believe Bird did as well.

millwad

02-05-2012, 01:18 PM

I have one question, jlauber: do you honestly think people who disagree with you read through even 20% of these long-ass posts?
No one reads them really, he even bumped his own essays and filled it up with new ones...

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:19 PM

I did not mean to offend you but you seem to have a crazy mancrush on him.

You didn't offend me at all. I could not care less if Chamberlain were gay. And I have no more of a "man-crush" on him, than you do on Hakeem.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:23 PM

I have one question, jlauber: do you honestly think people who disagree with you read through even 20% of these long-ass posts?

I always find these responses fascinating. I have read posts, like this one, in which the poster claims to have not read my post...yet, he will then argue certain points in his (or her's) replies.

The fact that someone even takes the time to post a response in these topics is all I need to read. Clearly, they are taking the time to read them.

millwad

02-05-2012, 01:23 PM

You didn't offend me at all. I could not care less if Chamberlain were gay. And I have no more of a "man-crush" on him, than you do on Hakeem.
You do, I like Hakeem's game but I would never spend the amount of time on him as you do regsrding Wilt. Only a few of my posts are about him and only in relevant threads. You only discuss Wilt and you write extremely long posts about him...

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:24 PM

No one reads them really, he even bumped his own essays and filled it up with new ones...

And yet you manage to take the time to pop in and respond in nearly all of them.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:26 PM

You do, I like Hakeem's game but I would never spend the amount of time on him as you do regsrding Wilt. Only a few of my posts are about him and only in relevant threads. You only discuss Wilt and you write extremely long posts about him...

Here again, you go OUT OF YOUR WAY to DISPARAGE Wilt in nearly EVERY topic about him. I occasionally respond to Hakeem topics, and only to provide a dose of reality to those that proclaim him as some kind of GOAT.

millwad

02-05-2012, 01:30 PM

And yet you manage to take the time to pop in and respond in nearly all of them.
You are a funny gay, no hatin'.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 01:35 PM

You are a funny gay, no hatin'.

Here again, I have nothing against "gays", but I have been married to my wife for over 31 years.

Having said that, this is a SPORTS forum, and is not really the place to post your gay and racial insults, or personal attacks on other posters like 32Dayz.

millwad

02-05-2012, 01:46 PM

Here again, I have nothing against "gays", but I have been married to my wife for over 31 years.

Having said that, this is a SPORTS forum, and is not really the place to post your gay and racial insults, or personal attacks on other posters like 32Dayz.
I meant guy. And regarding insult, you have insult ALOT of posters with your childish namecalling. As soon as someone doesn't agree with you, you make up names... :facepalm

-23-

02-05-2012, 02:07 PM

I am not going to take the time to look up quotes by peers that have bashed other "greats." Kareem, MJ, and Russell were certainly not well liked by at least some of their peers.

Oscar, West, and even Russell ALL proclaimed Chamberlain as the GOAT at some point BEFORE Wilt died. I believe Bird did as well.

And in no way is Wilt in any discussion for GOAT.

Pointguard

02-05-2012, 02:08 PM

How exactly was it a joke when he pulled articles, quotes, and general observations from the game? I read his whole book, and I thought it was interesting to see what other players felt about Wilt. It seems only after he'd died that other players seemed to "respect" his game.

If they didn't respect him, it was because the fear was blocking that emotion. For ten years he was most likely to outscore, outrebound, outblock anybody on the court. And for most of that time he was likely to do it unlike anybody in the sport would ever do it, even 60 years later. For ten years you didn't know when a a massive 55/35 triple double might be had on your team. When focused he could assist as good as anybody in the game. And if that wasn't enough, he might have had the best defensive year ever as well. In Shaq's most dominant scoring year he had one/tenth the separation Wilt had one year. Yeah, 1/10th!

Wilt wasn't into intimidation in a physically aggressive manner, but he did dislocate one of the strongest guys in the games arm by blocking his dunk attempt. He did pick up Bob Lanier (one of the games biggest players) just to let him know how boxing out could work. Tex Winters spies on Wilt taking a couple of steps and leaping from the foul line to dunk the ball. These things leak out, incidental stories about his strength and agility. Do you really think he wasn't respected?

PTB Fan

02-05-2012, 02:19 PM

La Frescobaldi

02-05-2012, 02:25 PM

And in no way is Wilt in any discussion for GOAT.

Chamberlain was the greatest basketball player of all time. Nobody is even close.

Sorry but you never watched him or you'd never even think that.

ChrisKreager

02-05-2012, 02:56 PM

Outside of Boston, the 1960s wasn't a fun time to be a hoops fan save for 1967.

All Russell all the time.

If this site was around, you'd have heard a lot of "Wake me up when Bill Russell doesn't win the title for once."

La Frescobaldi

02-05-2012, 02:58 PM

-23-

02-05-2012, 02:58 PM

If they didn't respect him, it was because the fear was blocking that emotion. For ten years he was most likely to outscore, outrebound, outblock anybody on the court. And for most of that time he was likely to do it unlike anybody in the sport would ever do it, even 60 years later. For ten years you didn't know when a a massive 55/35 triple double might be had on your team. When focused he could assist as good as anybody in the game. And if that wasn't enough, he might have had the best defensive year ever as well. In Shaq's most dominant scoring year he had one/tenth the separation Wilt had one year. Yeah, 1/10th!

Wilt wasn't into intimidation in a physically aggressive manner, but he did dislocate one of the strongest guys in the games arm by blocking his dunk attempt. He did pick up Bob Lanier (one of the games biggest players) just to let him know how boxing out could work. Tex Winters spies on Wilt taking a couple of steps and leaping from the foul line to dunk the ball. These things leak out, incidental stories about his strength and agility. Do you really think he wasn't respected?

That just means there is more parity in the league. Cherry picking stats is pointless.

-23-

02-05-2012, 03:00 PM

Chamberlain was the greatest basketball player of all time. Nobody is even close.

Sorry but you never watched him or you'd never even think that.

"was" or is? How can you be the greatest when you are a) short in rings and b) perform worse as the playoffs come?

How can he be in the discussion when he lacks the total dominance (in both regular season and playoffs). Jordan is one of few who's stats INCREASED as the playoffs came. Not to mention, never losing a series with HCA. :no:

La Frescobaldi

02-05-2012, 03:06 PM

jlauber

02-05-2012, 03:18 PM

Pointguard

02-05-2012, 03:40 PM

That just means there is more parity in the league. Cherry picking stats is pointless.

Cherry picking??? Ok, does 7 years at 40 and 23 work better for you??? They would have respected a guy at half those numbers for a couple of years... At half that's a starting all-star today.

Parity??? You really thought there was another person as dominant as Shaq scoring wise???

You're joking right? This is your argument against Wilt being respected?

jlauber

02-05-2012, 03:41 PM

I have a question for Jlauber.

How come you go with stats for Wilt in the Wilt vs Russell debate.. look to excuse Wilt for his not so good performances (in some seasons) with an edge in HOFers.. and not to do the same in the Wilt vs Kareem debates, where the latter has a statistical edge in their battles?

This is just a fair question. Why the double standard? After all, you respected the greats of the game, don't you?

One, take a look at the Russell-Wilt battles. Chamberlain had a HUGE statistical edge. BUT, Russell had FAR better rosters.

Two, when Chamberlain and Kareem met, Wilt was well past his PRIME (while Kareem was in his greatest statistical seasons), AND, Kareem had GREAT surrounding talent.

For instance, I have read some here who claim that Russell "outplayed" Wilt in the '62 ECF's, despite Wilt's MASSIVE edge in scoring and efficiency. However, Russell was playing on the multiple-defending title Celtics, with a HOF-laden roster. Furthermore, Wilt's supporting cast played WORSE than they did in the regular season. Now, just how in the hell did Wilt single-handedly carry that inept roster to a game seven, two-point loss?

By contrast, Kareem's 71-72 Bucks, were the defending champs. The year before they had gone 66-16 in the regular season, and then waltzed thru the playoffs with a 12-2 record. AND, Wilt, playing without BOTH West and Baylor, matched Kareem, shot-for-shot, rebound-for-rebound, and in efficiency. This from a 34 year-old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

Kareem's 71-72 Bucks were UNIVERSALLY picked to repeat as champions before the season even began. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's Lakers were an old team, which had gone 48-34 the yearf before, and with all five returning starters over 30 years old. Virtually NO ONE picked LA to win the title.

And, once again, this was a well past his prime Chamberlain, too. I would never claim that, at that stage in their careers, that Chamberlain was the better player. STILL, those that actually WATCHED the 71-72 WCF's, including the MILWAUKEE PRESS, and the MILWAUKEE COACH, as well as virtually EVERYONE else, proclaimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as DECISIVELY outplaying the 11 year younger Kareem.

And in the last four pivotal games of that series, (three of them Laker wins), Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter (including blocking MANY of his shots..and skyhooks.) And in the clinching game six win, on the road, Chamberlain took over the game in the 4th quarter, and engineered a Laker comeback win.

The real question would be...how would a battle between a PRIME Chamberlain and a prime Kareem have gone? We do KNOW that Wilt DOMINATED many of the same centers, to a FAR greater extent than Kareem did.

Kareem faced HOFers Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond, many times. BUT, think about this...Wilt had an ENTIRE season, covering NINE H2H games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Reed. Chamberlain routinely SHELLED Bellamy. For instance, Wilt had entire SEASONS of 33.0 ppg (in 65-66), 43.7 ppg (in 62-63), and an unbelieveable 52.7 ppg, covering 10 H2H games in the 61-62 season.

Thurmond? Kareem faced Nate in over 50+ H2H games in their careers. He seldom even scored 30+ against Nate, and his HIGH game was 34 points. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt faced Thurmond in a slightly over a DOZEN games. For example, in their last H2H meeting in the 64-65 season, Wilt scored 34 points against Thurmond. Then, in their nine H2H games in the 65-66 season, Chamberlain averaged 28.9 ppg against Thurmond, which included games of 33, 34, 38, and a whopping 45 point game (outscoring Nate, 45-13.) So, in a span of 10 straight games, Chamberlain was at nearly 30 ppg against Thurmond.

I could go on, but once again, Kareem never faced a PRIME Chamberlain. In their one H2H game before Wilt shredded his knee, he dominated a rookie Kareem in every facet of the game, hanging a 25-25 game, on 9-14 shooting, against Kareem. And while that was a rookie Kareem, that was still not a PRIME Chamberlain.

millwad

02-05-2012, 04:01 PM

Jlauber will never tell you the fact that Wilt got outscored with 23 points per game by Kareem in the playoffs when he won his 2nd ring as a Laker. He will always mention Kareem's FG% in that series and how much it sucked but at the same time he "forgets" to mention that Wilt's FG% was even worse while Kareem outscored him with 23 points per game. He will not mention either that Kareem outassisted Wilt in that series and that he shot FT's twice as good as Wilt but he will mention bogus stuff about Wilt blocking 20 skyhooks in that series, the source of that nonsense is himself..

He will only mention the fact that he found one article that he's constantly misreading words on purpose because he thinks that everyone will fall for his nonsense as proof of how Wilt outplayed Kareem.

Before Jlauber got confronted regarding this series he used spam about how Wilt absolutely destroyed Kareem in that series and how he "murdered" Kareem which of course wasn't true. You don't murder someone when you're getting outscored with 23 points per game by someone who even shoots with higher FG% then yourself..:facepalm

jlauber

02-05-2012, 04:31 PM

"was" or is? How can you be the greatest when you are a) short in rings and b) perform worse as the playoffs come?

How can he be in the discussion when he lacks the total dominance (in both regular season and playoffs). Jordan is one of few who's stats INCREASED as the playoffs came. Not to mention, never losing a series with HCA. :no:

I posted EVERY one of Wilt's "must-win" or series clinching games of his post-season career. All 35 of them. And no, I didn't "cherry pick" them either. Go back and re-read each one of them, and tell me in just how many that he was outplayed.

In the meantime...

I'll repost this...

The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 04:34 PM

One more time...ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" or series clinching games...

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

PTB Fan

02-05-2012, 04:41 PM

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Chamberlain had an edge in Hall of Famers????????????????????????????

Chamberlain's teammates AND HOW MANY SEASONS HE PLAYED WITH THEM:
Baylor 4
West 5
Greer 4
Cunningham 3 (anyone remember BC breaking his arm in the 68 playoffs?)
Arizin 3
Thurmond 2
Gola 3
Total: 24 seasons together.

Baylor? from the 69-70 season right through the end of his career in 71-72 he played 65 games. He never played a full season with Chamberlain.
And it's interesting that Chamberlain wrecked his knee in 69 and missed the season. And it's interesting that Baylor & West both missed the '71 playoffs.

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Russell?

Russell's teammates AND HOW MANY SEASONS RUSSELL PLAYED WITH THEM:
Havlicek 7
Cousy 7
Sharman 5
Sam Jones 12

Lovellette played two partial seasons with Russell, and limited minutes so we won't count him.

Risen 2
Embry 2
Howell 3
Ramsey 8
KC Jones 8 (full seasons, and another, his ninth was partial)
Sanders 9
Heinsohn 9

Russell had 71-24 edge in HOF seasons with his teammates over Chamberlain.

What the heck are you talkin' about?

Wilt had a comparable supporting cast from 65 to the rest of their match ups and IMO, better. None of Russell's team mates was individually better than any of Wilt's (granted Hondo is good, but he isn't better than Baylor and West). Difference between the two lies in the fact that Russell maximized his team mates' strengths and made them so so much better unlike Wilt who didn't do well in this area and no stats will prove me wrong.

So, it's not like Wilt didn't have advantage, but for some reasons he couldn't beat Russell (expect in 67) in a series despite having some good to brilliant rosters in his career.

PTB Fan

02-05-2012, 04:44 PM

One, take a look at the Russell-Wilt battles. Chamberlain had a HUGE statistical edge. BUT, Russell had FAR better rosters.

Two, when Chamberlain and Kareem met, Wilt was well past his PRIME (while Kareem was in his greatest statistical seasons), AND, Kareem had GREAT surrounding talent.

For instance, I have read some here who claim that Russell "outplayed" Wilt in the '62 ECF's, despite Wilt's MASSIVE edge in scoring and efficiency. However, Russell was playing on the multiple-defending title Celtics, with a HOF-laden roster. Furthermore, Wilt's supporting cast played WORSE than they did in the regular season. Now, just how in the hell did Wilt single-handedly carry that inept roster to a game seven, two-point loss?

By contrast, Kareem's 71-72 Bucks, were the defending champs. The year before they had gone 66-16 in the regular season, and then waltzed thru the playoffs with a 12-2 record. AND, Wilt, playing without BOTH West and Baylor, matched Kareem, shot-for-shot, rebound-for-rebound, and in efficiency. This from a 34 year-old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

Kareem's 71-72 Bucks were UNIVERSALLY picked to repeat as champions before the season even began. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's Lakers were an old team, which had gone 48-34 the yearf before, and with all five returning starters over 30 years old. Virtually NO ONE picked LA to win the title.

And, once again, this was a well past his prime Chamberlain, too. I would never claim that, at that stage in their careers, that Chamberlain was the better player. STILL, those that actually WATCHED the 71-72 WCF's, including the MILWAUKEE PRESS, and the MILWAUKEE COACH, as well as virtually EVERYONE else, proclaimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as DECISIVELY outplaying the 11 year younger Kareem.

And in the last four pivotal games of that series, (three of them Laker wins), Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter (including blocking MANY of his shots..and skyhooks.) And in the clinching game six win, on the road, Chamberlain took over the game in the 4th quarter, and engineered a Laker comeback win.

The real question would be...how would a battle between a PRIME Chamberlain and a prime Kareem have gone? We do KNOW that Wilt DOMINATED many of the same centers, to a FAR greater extent than Kareem did.

Kareem faced HOFers Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond, many times. BUT, think about this...Wilt had an ENTIRE season, covering NINE H2H games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Reed. Chamberlain routinely SHELLED Bellamy. For instance, Wilt had entire SEASONS of 33.0 ppg (in 65-66), 43.7 ppg (in 62-63), and an unbelieveable 52.7 ppg, covering 10 H2H games in the 61-62 season.

Thurmond? Kareem faced Nate in over 50+ H2H games in their careers. He seldom even scored 30+ against Nate, and his HIGH game was 34 points. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt faced Thurmond in a slightly over a DOZEN games. For example, in their last H2H meeting in the 64-65 season, Wilt scored 34 points against Thurmond. Then, in their nine H2H games in the 65-66 season, Chamberlain averaged 28.9 ppg against Thurmond, which included games of 33, 34, 38, and a whopping 45 point game (outscoring Nate, 45-13.) So, in a span of 10 straight games, Chamberlain was at nearly 30 ppg against Thurmond.

I could go on, but once again, Kareem never faced a PRIME Chamberlain. In their one H2H game before Wilt shredded his knee, he dominated a rookie Kareem in every facet of the game, hanging a 25-25 game, on 9-14 shooting, against Kareem. And while that was a rookie Kareem, that was still not a PRIME Chamberlain.

Hm..still doesn't change the fact that you go with stats when they are in favor of your favor player. Not a fan of that.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 04:59 PM

Wilt had a comparable supporting cast from 65 to the rest of their match ups and IMO, better. None of Russell's team mates was individually better than any of Wilt's (granted Hondo is good, but he isn't better than Baylor and West). Difference between the two lies in the fact that Russell maximized his team mates' strengths and made them so so much better unlike Wilt who didn't do well in this area and no stats will prove me wrong.

So, it's not like Wilt didn't have advantage, but for some reasons he couldn't beat Russell (expect in 67) in a series despite having some good to brilliant rosters in his career.

In the 67-68 regular season, Wilt and his Sixers RAN AWAY with the best record in the league.

BUT, in the ECF's, the team that Chamberlain had during the regular season, was NOWHERE near the team that he had that faced Russell's Celtics. HOFer Billy Cunningham didn't play a MINUTE of that series. And the Sixers STILL had a 3-1 series lead. THEN, in game five, BOTH starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones, went down with leg injuries. And despite that talented roster, it was NOT a deep roster (unlike Boston, which could go TEN deep.) On top of all of that, Wilt himself, was PLAYING with an assortment of injuries, including a torn calf (a similar injury which limited Reed to missing two portions of the '70 Finals, and another entire game.) With ALL of that, Boston eked out a 100-96 win in game seven. CLEARLY, a HEALTHY Sixer roster would have fared much better, and likely would have duplicated their 66-67 rout of Boston.

In the 68-69 season, the Lakers gave up THREE players to get Wilt, AND, something that very few mention, they also lost HOFer Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft. Again, they were not a deep roster. But, despite all of that, they were still ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1. Had Goodrich's replacement, Johnny Egan, been able to hold onto the ball late in game four, the Lakers would have won that game, and given the fact that they easily won game five, 117-104, they would have won that series in a 4-1 romp. I could go on, but ultimately, they had an incompetent coach who cost LA a title that season.

As for the 65-66 Sixers. During the regular season, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg and 31.6 rpg against Russell. Overall, he led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and in FG%, at .540. And, he led that Sixer team to the best record in the league that year (albeit, by only one game over Boston.) In the ECF's, and against Russell, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. Meanwhile, his teammates collectively shot .352 in that series. Now, you tell me just what changed? Are you blaming WILT for that collapse?

jlauber

02-05-2012, 05:03 PM

Hm..still doesn't change the fact that you go with stats when they are in favor of your favor player. Not a fan of that.

Throw out the stats...

Wilt DOMINATED his peers...plain-and-simple. Even in his supposed "decline" in the post-season.

There were very few games in Chamberlain's 160 playoff games, in which he played poorly, or was outplayed. And in many of them he just OBLITERATED his opposing centers. And keep in mind that he faced a HOF starting center in 105, and a multiple all star center in another 26...or 131 of his 160 post-season games against very good-to-GREAT centers.

millwad

02-05-2012, 05:07 PM

Throw out the stats...

Wilt DOMINATED his peers...plain-and-simple. Even in his supposed "decline" in the post-season.

There were very few games in Chamberlain's 160 playoff games, in which he played poorly, or was outplayed. And in many of them he just OBLITERATED his opposing centers. And keep in mind that he faced a HOF starting center in 105, and a multiple all star center in another 26...or 131 of his 160 post-season games against very good-to-GREAT centers.

Why don't you ever post the stats both Wilt and Kareem had in the '72 playoffs? You ALWAYS post both Wilt's stats and the stats of the player he faced but this series you never put up stats. You only write "Kareem got murdered by Wilt", "Kareem got totally abused" and nonsense like that..

A perfect example of how you only use stats when it fits you.

La Frescobaldi

02-05-2012, 05:14 PM

Wilt had a comparable supporting cast from 65 to the rest of their match ups and IMO, better. None of Russell's team mates was individually better than any of Wilt's (granted Hondo is good, but he isn't better than Baylor and West). Difference between the two lies in the fact that Russell maximized his team mates' strengths and made them so so much better unlike Wilt who didn't do well in this area and no stats will prove me wrong.

So, it's not like Wilt didn't have advantage, but for some reasons he couldn't beat Russell (expect in 67) in a series despite having some good to brilliant rosters in his career.
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Dude. Hondo was always better than Baylor. That's not even a comparison.

Elgin was a great scorer & a pretty fair rebounder when I saw him in the late 60s. But he never, ever, played defense, was a notorious shot-jacker, and froze in clutch games over, and over, and over.

Havlicek was the best forward in the NBA for years and years. He was the best player on the Celtics in 68 & 69 and a top 5 player almost throughout his career. His only real competition was Pettit & then Rick Barry

I love stats as much as the next guy, but the eye-ball test doesn't get you to a point where Russell (or anybody) was better than Chamberlain. That's all Boston newspapers. He wasn't a guard, he was a center, he invented the entire post game against some of the best centers the game has ever seen. And he demolished every player he ever saw - on any court - except Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

You'll have to prove a negative when you suggest Chamberlain's teammates were better than Russell's, because they weren't. From 1960 to 1966 it wasn't even close. Chamberlain had 4 Hall of Fame teammates over those years, one of whom was a 11 & 5 guy with no great defensive skill: Russell had 14. Guys like Heinsohn, Cousy, Havlicek, both Jones, Sanders, Ramsay.

1967 & 68 were the only years there was an even matchup, and the 76ers won in 67 and had so many injuries in 68 nobody in the country thought they were winning the series.

People keep talking about Baylor like he was some mythic figure and in his early career, I guess he was. But he was nothing but a scorer when I saw him in 67-70. And, most people don't even know he played 65 games out of 300 in those last 3 years. If you count him as a player in the 70s you are sadly mistaken. He was the original Baron Davis as in always injured, always on the bench, a negative factor for his team.

********************

Furthermore - it's flat false to say that Russell made his teammates better than Chamberlain did.

Look up Wilt's teammates. Virtually every one of them had the best seasons of their careers with Chamberlain. The only notable exception was Baylor, who as I already pointed out, was done in by 70 - 1 full season with Chamberlain.

Buying into myth is bad business.

jlauber

02-05-2012, 08:37 PM

Why don't you ever post the stats both Wilt and Kareem had in the '72 playoffs? You ALWAYS post both Wilt's stats and the stats of the player he faced but this series you never put up stats. You only write "Kareem got murdered by Wilt", "Kareem got totally abused" and nonsense like that..

A perfect example of how you only use stats when it fits you.

Hmmm... I posted the numbers from their two H2H clinching games in this thread. In one, a 34 year-old Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery, outscored Kareem, 23-20, while outshooting Kareem, 10-21 to 7-23. Granted Kareem outrebounded him in that game, 15-12. Oh, and BTW, Wilt received a standing ovation as he left the floor in the last minute of the game...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

In the very next season, in the clinching game, again in Milwaukee, it was WILT who engineered a Laker comeback in the final quarter, erasing a 10 point Buck lead, and leading LA to a 104-100 win. In that final quarter, Chamberlain held Kareem to 2-8 shooting (and blocking two of his shots...presumably skyhooks), while taking over offensively. Their final numbers... Kareem with 37 points, and 25 rebounds, BUT, on 16-37 shooting. Meanwhile, Chamberlain had 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds.

So, in those TWO "clinching" games, a 34 and 35 year-old Chamberlain held Kareem to 23-60 shooting...or a .383 FG%!

Once again, though, what would a Chamberlain, in his absolute PRIME, have brought to the table?

jlauber

02-05-2012, 08:54 PM

Once again...I listed ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" and series "clinching" games...ALL of them.

Take a close look at ALL of them. Now, I challenge the "Simmonites" to prove that Chamberlain was a "choker" and a "loser", who "shrunk" in his biggest games. If anything, his OPPOSING CENTERS were the one's "shrinking" in those big games.

Hopefully we can finally put an end to this utter NONSENSE that Wilt was a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked" and "shrunk" in his biggest games in the post-season.

millwad

02-05-2012, 08:56 PM

DMAVS41

02-05-2012, 09:51 PM

Wilt and Lebron (on the Cavs) are the two players in NBA history that have had to deal with more unrealistic expectations simply because of how good they were.

Their own greatness was used against them time and time again.

KG gets a pass for getting out of the first round once in Minny....while Lebron is expected to challenge for titles with marginally better help on the Cavs. Doesn't add up.

People act like Wilt never won. He won twice and came about as close as you can a lot more.

Its funny because the mere act of hammering guys like that shows how truly great they are. Why do Malone and Barkley get passes for not winning anything.....while a guy like Dirk was hammered before last year? Last year people would laugh at the notion that Dirk was in their league as a player. Why? The ring thing was often brought up.

But then you mention that those guys didn't have a ring either and its excuse after excuse.

Rings matter of course, but so does how players play. You can be great and lose. Happens all the time. Check out Lebron in 09. Dirk in 09 (against the Nuggets).....Dirk in 10 against the Spurs.....

And what does it all even matter. Even the most ardent hater of Wilt would rank him in the top 6 all time. LOL

Horatio33

02-05-2012, 10:36 PM

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Dude. Hondo was always better than Baylor. That's not even a comparison.

Elgin was a great scorer & a pretty fair rebounder when I saw him in the late 60s. But he never, ever, played defense, was a notorious shot-jacker, and froze in clutch games over, and over, and over.

Fair rebounder? He averaged 18.5 RPG and 19 RPG in back to back seasons. Don't think Hondo got near double figures.

La Frescobaldi

02-06-2012, 12:01 AM

Fair rebounder? He averaged 18.5 RPG and 19 RPG in back to back seasons. Don't think Hondo got near double figures.

1962 and 1963 is not the late 60s.

As I said, and you apparently ignored:

"Elgin was a great scorer & a pretty fair rebounder when I saw him in the late 60s."

Baylor was great, I don't want to give any idea otherwise. In the '68 regular season people were saying he had gotten back a lot of his old early 60s form, and I know I was blown away by some of his moves. But he got slower and slower as the season went on. It ain't fair to bash the guy, because his knees blew out - anymore than a guy should bash Grant Hill for his injuries. But his defense was not what you saw from Satch Sanders or John Havlicek. Or Grant Hill, for that matter, who turned his game into skill and defense.

If you just run your eye down his career stat line, you can see exactly when he broke his kneecap........ From ESPN:

"On April 3, 1965, in the opening game of the Western Division finals against the Baltimore Bullets, Baylor's world came crashing down. He went up for a jump shot and came down twisting in pain. Players heard a "pop." He had ripped off the upper eighth of his kneecap. Doctors removed part of his kneecap, tendons and ligaments, and scraped out sharp flecks of calcium.

Baylor returned for the next season, but, as Lakers announcer Chick Hearn said, "It was like watching Citation run on spavined legs." Baylor averaged only 16.6 points and for the first time didn't make first-team all-NBA. Somehow, though his moves and speed were not what they had been, Baylor pushed himself so hard that he again took his place among the NBA elite, averaging at least 24 points in the next four seasons.

But a torn Achilles tendon limited him to two games in 1970-71, and after only nine games the following year Baylor retired with 23,149 points... "

People on this site use Elgin Baylor all the time as a club to beat on Wilt Chamberlain for not winning more rings. They don't even know he just sat the bench most of the time.

jlauber

02-06-2012, 12:31 AM

Simmons is among the ignorant that bring up the Baylor-Wilt connection, to disparage Wilt's career.

As La Frescobaldi pointed out, Baylor was already on a severe downward spiral by the time he was paired up with Chamberlain. And the Lakers idiotic coach, Van Breda Kolf, preferred the shot-jacking Baylor's offense over the efficient offense of Chamberlain.

And the reality was, Baylor and Wilt only played together for ONE FULL-TIME season, their first in 68-69. And, Baylor was AWFUL in that post-season.

Following that season, Chamberlain blew out HIS knee the very next season, and while Baylor was essentially worthless for over a year with HIS knee injury (and at a younger age), Wilt came back from his surgery within FOUR MONTHS.

Now, while Van Breda Kolf despised Wilt, and limited his offense in the 68-69 season, Chamberlain's new coach in the 69-70 season immediately recognized that Wilt was a FAR greater offensive threat than Baylor. He asked WILT to become the focal point of the Laker offense, and as I have stated many times, a rejuvenated Chamberlain relished his return to offensive basketball.

In Wilt's first nine games of that 69-70 season, Wilt terrorized the league, averaging 32.2 ppg and on nearly .600 shooting...all in his 11th season in the league. BUT, unfortunately, Wilt blew out his knee, and was never quite the same after that.

In any case, Wilt was still a much better offensive player even after that devastating injury, and in fact, after posting a 36 and 30 point games in leading LA back from the 3-1 first round deficit, and then a sweep of Atlanta in the WCF's, he then put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 Finals, in a seven game series loss against the 60-22 Knicks.

Baylor only played TWO GAMES in the 70-71 season (and obviously missed the playoffs...as did West that season.) Then, he was forced to retire in the ninth game of the 71-72 season, and it was probably no coincidence that the Lakers immediately reeled off a 33 game winning streak.

In any case, Wilt and Baylor were only together for ONE FULL season. Of course, Simmons never brings that up. Nor that Wilt was paired up with Thurmond for ONE full season, and then, Nate was a rookie, playing part-time, out of position, and even shooting a dismal .395.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain played with HIS HOFers FAR less than Russell did with his. And, for whatever it is worth, Wilt's HOFers generally played considerably worse in the post-season. Even the legendary "Mr. Clutch" had a horrible post-season in the one year in which he won a ring (shooting .376 in the post-season, and an even worse .325 in the Finals.)

And, as La Frescobaldi pointed out, Havlicek was a much better player in the late 60's than Baylor was, and considerably better in the post-season.

jlauber

07-20-2012, 08:52 AM

Thanks to Julizaver...

I can now add some more info to Wilt's 35 "must win" and series clinching games...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272032&page=3

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

Thanks again Julizaver

jlauber

07-20-2012, 08:54 AM

Updated...

Wilt in his 35 "must-win", or "series clinching" post-season games...

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

Trumpin

07-20-2012, 08:55 AM

lol Wilt sucks two rings with one of them winning as a sidekick, can't believe he is called the most dominant player. Definition of a statpadder!

Oh yeah he is a choker.

jlauber

07-20-2012, 09:11 AM

lol Wilt sucks two rings with one of them winning as a sidekick, can't believe he is called the most dominant player. Definition of a statpadder!

Oh yeah he is a choker.

As a 'sidekick" he won the FMVP. And all he did in that series was average 19 ppg, 23 rpg, shoot .600, and 7.4 bpg. And in his clinching game five performance (and with two badly injured wrists...one FRACTURED)...he put up a 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and either 9 or 10 blocks.

And I am assuming as a "sidekick". you probably meant to Jerry West, who not only shot .376 in his entire '72 post-season, but an even worse .325 in those Finals.

Yep. He was a choker.

Deuce Bigalow

07-20-2012, 04:44 PM

1960 - Loss
1961 - Loss
1962 - Loss
1963 - Loss
1964 - Loss
1965 - Loss
1966 - Loss
1967 - Win
1968 - Loss
1969 - Loss
1970 - Loss
1971 - Loss
1972 - Win
1973 - Loss

Yep. He was a choker.

jlauber

07-20-2012, 08:50 PM

1960 - Loss
1961 - Loss
1962 - Loss
1963 - Loss
1964 - Loss
1965 - Loss
1966 - Loss
1967 - Win
1968 - Loss
1969 - Loss
1970 - Loss
1971 - Loss
1972 - Win
1973 - Loss

Some more chokers...

Jordan choked in nine of his 15 seasons.
Bird choked in 10 of his 13.
Duncan has choked in 11 of his 15.
Oscar choked in 13 of his 14.
West choked in 13 of his 14.
Baylor choked in all 14 of his.
Kareem choked in 14 of his 20.
Shaq choked in 15 of his 19.
Hakeem choked in 16 of his 18.

And has anyone ever choked as bad as Kobe did in the '04 Finals? While Shaq was single-handedly dominating DPOY Wallace to the tune of 27 ppg on .631 shooting...Kobe was single-handedly shooting his team out of four of the five games, and wound up with a .381 FG% in that Finals.

In fact, maybe you can provide all of us here with Kobe's FG%'s in his seven Finals.

Deuce Bigalow

07-20-2012, 08:55 PM

Some more chokers...

Jordan choked in nine of his 15 seasons.
Bird choked in 10 of his 13.
Duncan has choked in 11 of his 15.
Oscar choked in 13 of his 14.
West choked in 13 of his 14.
Baylor choked in all 14 of his.
Kareem choked in 14 of his 20.
Shaq choked in 15 of his 19.
Hakeem choked in 16 of his 18.

And has anyone ever choked as bad as Kobe did in the '04 Finals? While Shaq was single-handedly dominating DPOY Wallace to the tune of 27 ppg on .631 shooting...Kobe was single-handedly shooting his team out of four of the five games, and wound up with a .381 FG% in that Finals.

In fact, maybe you can provide all of us here with Kobe's FG%'s in his seven Finals.
Wilt's teammate

'69 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 46%, '69 Finals: 38 ppg (2nd highest of all-time)
'70 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 47%, '70 Finals: 31-3-4 on 45%

And Wilt lost both times while shooting below 36% from the freethrow line :oldlol:
:facepalm

Other than '11 Lebron, you can't surpass that on the all-time chokers list.

jlauber

07-21-2012, 12:40 PM

Wilt's teammate

'69 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 46%, '69 Finals: 38 ppg (2nd highest of all-time)
'70 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 47%, '70 Finals: 31-3-4 on 45%

And Wilt lost both times while shooting below 36% from the freethrow line :oldlol:
:facepalm

Other than '11 Lebron, you can't surpass that on the all-time chokers list.

In the '70 Finals, while West had a brilliant overall series, he completely choked in that game seven, and was badly outplayed by Frazier. Meanwhile, in that game seven, Chamberlain was the ONLY Laker to do ANYTHING (particularly in the first half). Wilt put up a 21 point game, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds.

And keep in mind that Wilt was only FOUR MONTHS REMOVED FROM MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. And he STILL put up the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 FG%.) And "the choker" even had a "must-win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.

And, as I already pointed out, Chamberlain chopped down Kareem in the '72 WCF's (Time Magazine hailed it as a DECISIVE win for Wilt BTW), and then won the FMVP with a 19-23 .600 series, which included a series clinching game performance of 24 points, 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. Meanwhile West shot .376 in the entire '72 post-season, and then a horriod .325 in the Finals.

And in Wilt's LAST game, in game five of the '73 Finals, he hung a 23 point, 21 rebound game, and on 9-16 shooting. How about "Mr. Clutch?" He shot 5-17.

To be honest, in the five years in which Chamberlain played with West, West only had two good post-seasons (and yes, a great one in '69...albeit, Baylor puked all over himself in that series.) And even in the other good series, he was awful in game seven. He missed the entire '71 post-season. Then, he was just horrific in both the '72 and '73 post-seasons, and particularly in those Finals.

jongib369

08-01-2012, 08:00 PM

Once again, GREAT posts as always. You know you're history...id really like to know some of your sources...and do you make youtube videos at all?

jlauber

08-01-2012, 11:55 PM

Once again, GREAT posts as always. You know you're history...id really like to know some of your sources...and do you make youtube videos at all?

Thanks.

:cheers:

I have researched Chamberlain's career for years, and actually went to a couple of his games (albeit, it was in his last year.) And there are MANY sources out there, including several HERE. Fpliii, Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, Psileas, PHILA, Pointguard, and other's that I apologize for failing to recall at the moment.

As for YouTube videos...I wouldn't have a clue.

What is your YouTube Channel again?

jongib369

08-03-2012, 11:36 PM

Thanks.

:cheers:

I have researched Chamberlain's career for years, and actually went to a couple of his games (albeit, it was in his last year.) And there are MANY sources out there, including several HERE. Fpliii, Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, Psileas, PHILA, Pointguard, and other's that I apologize for failing to recall at the moment.

As for YouTube videos...I wouldn't have a clue.

What is your YouTube Channel again?
Id pay big money to be able to see him play. You are LUCKY! haha

It's the same as my username here

or you can just go to a post I did earlier

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273334

jlauber

08-03-2012, 11:59 PM

BTW, I will be posting some new info regarding his "decline" in the post-season, as well. It is amazing, but given the actual scoring and especially shooting percentages in the Wilt-era POST-SEASONS, he was consistently at or near his regular season numbers.

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.