Wilt Chamberlian vs. Kobe Bryant

[jacobgoindum]

Wilton Norman Chamberlain

2

[RazorBaLade]

gotta admit i lold at not posting at any stats whatsoever

good stuff

[bwink23]

Nice how to post Kobe's overrated all-defensive teams, given that the award wasn't even around in Wilt's time....NICE

[Scholar]

[QUOTE=jacobgoindum]Wilton Norman Chamberlain

2

[RRR3]

Wilt. Not debatable at all.


/thread

[bwink23]

Wilt dominated in such a way that will never be duplicated...Wilt by default.

[jacobgoindum]

How is that even possible? :wtf:

From my knowledge, 31419 > 28601
my bad, I meant 4th

[jacobgoindum]

Wilt. Not debatable at all.


/thread
:confusedshrug:
How is it not debatable?

[jacobgoindum]

Wilt dominated in such a way that will never be duplicated...Wilt by default.
name me another 7 footer who played in the 60s
name me another player who weighed over 250 pounds in the 60's

[RRR3]

:confusedshrug:
How is it not debatable?
:facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

OP, put the playoffs and NBA Finals stats too.

[Legends66NBA7]

:confusedshrug:
How is it not debatable?

Sure it can be a debate, but I doubt anybody is taking Kobe over Wilt (I'm going to stay neutral on this).

jlauber's also going to tell you every reason why too.

[SuperPippen]

Meh, give me Kobe.

[jlauber]

name me another 7 footer who played in the 60s
name me another player who weighed over 250 pounds in the 60's

Just off the top of my head...Swede Habrook was 7-3. Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, Walter Dukes, Tom Boerwinkle were all 7-0. 7-2 Kareem played in 1969.

Boerwinkle, Luke Jackson, Wayne Embry were all over 250 lbs.

BTW, players were measured in barefeet in the 60's and 70's. So the MANY of them that were 6-11 (Bellamy and Thurmond among them) would have been measured, and listed, at over 7-0 in TODAY's NBA.

BTW, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain did, and never came CLOSE to matching a prime Chamberlain's domination of those same players.

[Legends66NBA7]

Meh, give me Kobe.

Proven wrong. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Meh, give me Kobe.
Wtf

[jlauber]

OP, put the playoffs and NBA Finals stats too.

A PRIME Chamberlain destroys Kobe in these categories, as well. Same in BIG GAMES.

[jacobgoindum]

A PRIME Chamberlain destroys Kobe in these categories, as well. Same in BIG GAMES.
PACE PACE PACE!!!

BTW Kobe 5 rings, Wilt 2 rings

[SuperPippen]

I respect Wilt and his dominance and all of his accolades and records and everything. I really do. He's a legend.


But, I guess I just respect Kobe a little bit more.

[jacobgoindum]

:facepalm
great argument

[jacobgoindum]

Just off the top of my head...Swede Habrook was 7-3. Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, Walter Dukes, Tom Boerwinkle were all 7-0. 7-2 Kareem played in 1969.

Boerwinkle, Luke Jackson, Wayne Embry were all over 250 lbs.

BTW, players were measured in barefeet in the 60's and 70's. So the MANY of them that were 6-11 (Bellamy and Thurmond among them) would have been measured, and listed, at over 7-0 in TODAY's NBA.

BTW, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain did, and never came CLOSE to matching a prime Chamberlain's domination of those same players.
they all sucked, great opposition...

[Lebron23]

Wilt

100 > 81

[jacobgoindum]

Don't get too excited about his rebounding
Wilt's Rebounding % from '71-'73 was 19.4
Dwight Howard averages a 21.0 rebounding % in his career

[HighFlyer23]

andrew bynum > wilt

[jacobgoindum]

Wilt

100 > 81
again...PACE

100vs81

Wilt - 100/169 team points = 59.2% of team points scored
Kobe - 81/122 team points = 66.4% of team points scored

[RRR3]

I respect Wilt and his dominance and all of his accolades and records and everything. I really do. He's a legend.


But, I guess I just respect Kobe a little bit more.
Putting wilt below Kobe is direspecting wilt. Period. And Kobe is a top 8-12 player ever. But wilt is easily top 5 top 3 IMO and one of the few with a case for goat. He proved e could change his game
Too he became more like Russell later in his career and won by being a team player. And of course he could be insanely dominant individually.

[jacobgoindum]

Putting wilt below Kobe is direspecting wilt. Period. And Kobe is a top 8-12 player ever. But wilt is easily top 5 top 3 IMO and one of the few with a case for goat. He proved e could change his game
Too he became more like Russell later in his career and won by being a team player. And of course he could be insanely dominant individually.
he got outringed by 9 by his rival Russell
MJ, Russell, Kareem,and Magic have a case for GOAT

[Legends66NBA7]

Putting wilt below Kobe is direspecting wilt. Period. And Kobe is a top 8-12 player ever. But wilt is easily top 5 top 3 IMO and one of the few with a case for goat. He proved e could change his game
Too he became more like Russell later in his career and won by being a team player. And of course he could be insanely dominant individually.

I agree with most of what you said, except he has no case for GOAT to me.

[RRR3]

he got outringed by 9 by his rival Russell
MJ, Russell, Kareem,and Magic have a case for GOAT
He outplayed Russell quite often. Team game don't give me that craap. It's not like wilt wasn't a winner either he proved he was later in his career when he became a team player

[RRR3]

I agree with most of what you said, except he has no case for GOAT to me.
Bollocks. Wilt is incredibly underrated these days. We can thank idiots like skip bayless for that. :facepalm

[jacobgoindum]

He outplayed Russell quite often. Team game don't give me that craap. It's not like wilt wasn't a winner either he proved he was later in his career when he became a team player
NINE more rings
not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4....not 8 but NINE

rings matter A LOT :wtf: you smoking

[Legends66NBA7]

Bollocks. Wilt is incredibly underrated these days. We can thank idiots like skip bayless for that. :facepalm

So what's the case ?

I don't listen to Bayless at all, but he doesn't have the best case to me.

[RRR3]

NINE more rings
not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4....not 8 but NINE

rings matter A LOT :wtf: you smoking
So is Russell better than mj too?


Note: anyone about to freak out notice I didn't use the horry argument so please stfu

[RRR3]

So what's the case ?

I don't listen to Bayless at all, but he doesn't have the best case to me.
He dominated his era like few others in any sport from an individual standpoint he was a fantastic two-way player and he was capable of playing different roles I order to win. Iirc russell said wilt on the lakers played his role better than he ever had. High praise and Russell being as competitive as he is wouldn't just say that IMO.

[jlauber]

Don't get too excited about his rebounding
Wilt's Rebounding % from '71-'73 was 19.4
Dwight Howard averages a 21.0 rebounding % in his career

How many post-seasons did Howard grab over 40% of his team's rebounds, and as many as 47% of them.

How many rebounding titles did Howard win?

How many rebounding titles did Howard win by 5 rpg?

How many playoff series did Howard outrebound the second best rebounder in the league by 9 rpg?

How many games did Howard outrebound the second best rebounder in the league by a 55-19 margin?

I could go on, but Chamberlain was THE most dominant rebounder of all-time, AND, he ELEVATED his rebounding in the POST-SEASON.

[Legends66NBA7]

So is Russell better than mj too?


Note: anyone about to freak out notice I didn't use the horry argument so please stfu

I've seen Russell been considered the GOAT many times on people's lists.

In 1980 when they selected the 35th Anniversary team, Russell was voted the greatest player ever.

Sure, Jordan comes up a lot, but I can see why they pick Russell over MJ.

[jacobgoindum]

So is Russell better than mj too?


Note: anyone about to freak out notice I didn't use the horry argument so please stfu
they didnt play in the same era
and horry never made an all nba 1st team or 2nd team so save the nonsense

[Legends66NBA7]

He dominated his era like few others in any sport from an individual standpoint he was a fantastic two-way player and he was capable of playing different roles I order to win. Iirc russell said wilt on the lakers played his role better than he ever had. High praise and Russell being as competitive as he is wouldn't just say that IMO.

Fair points, noted.

[Legends66NBA7]

they didnt play in the same era
and horry never made an all nba 1st team or 2nd team so save the nonsense

He said he didn't use the arguement, dude.

He used Russell, who is one of the few to me has a case for GOAT.

[RRR3]

they didnt play in the same era
and horry never made an all nba 1st team or 2nd team so save the nonsense
:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Legends66NBA7]

Maybe I am underrating Wilt by saying he doesn't have the best case for GOAT, but IMO, he doesn't have the case over Jordan, Kareem, and call me out for it, Russell.

[jlauber]

I've seen Russell been considered the GOAT many times on people's lists.

In 1980 when they selected the 35th Anniversary team, Russell was voted the greatest player ever.

Sure, Jordan comes up a lot, but I can see why they pick Russell over MJ.

And yet we have H2H PLAYOFF series, virtually ALL of them, in which Russell was either outplayed, or downright POUNDED by Chamberlain. Furthermore, with FAR inferior rosters, and with those crappy players playing WORSE in the post-season, Chamberlain came within NINE points (margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points), in FOUR game SEVEN's, of holding a 5-3 TEAM edge over Russell's vaunted dynasty. And check out those "must-win" and "clinching games between the two. Russell held his own a couple, but Chamberlain generally dominated him.

[SuperPippen]

He dominated his era like few others in any sport from an individual standpoint he was a fantastic two-way player and he was capable of playing different roles I order to win. Iirc russell said wilt on the lakers played his role better than he ever had. High praise and Russell being as competitive as he is wouldn't just say that IMO.


I've got no problem with someone ranking Chamberlain that highly. I guess I just think that he left a little too much on the table during his playing career for me to rank him over Kobe, who is guaranteed to always give you everything he's got.

I know it might seem a little ludicrous saying that Wilt Chamberlain, of all people, left too much on the table, but I honestly believe that he did. He's still the most dominant force in American sports history. But I'd rank Kobe higher on the GOAT list.

[jlauber]

I've got no problem with someone ranking Chamberlain that highly. I guess I just think that he left a little too much on the table during his playing career for me to rank him over Kobe, who is guaranteed to always give you everything he's got.

I know it might seem a little ludicrous saying that Wilt Chamberlain, of all people, left too much on the table, but I honestly believe that he did. He's still the most dominant force in American sports history. But I'd rank Kobe higher on the GOAT list.

Read this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250076

[RRR3]

I've got no problem with someone ranking Chamberlain that highly. I guess I just think that he left a little too much on the table during his playing career for me to rank him over Kobe, who is guaranteed to always give you everything he's got.

I know it might seem a little ludicrous saying that Wilt Chamberlain, of all people, left too much on the table, but I honestly believe that he did. He's still the most dominant force in American sports history. But I'd rank Kobe higher on the GOAT list.
You're either underrating wilt or overrating kobe. Or both. Let's not act like Kobe is some flawless playoff performer either not to mention wilt was a better defender.

[jlauber]

Here are ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" and "series clinching games in the post-season:


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

[jlauber]

Furthermore...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[jlauber]

they all sucked, great opposition...

Chamberlain played in 160 post-season games, and he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of them (and a multiple-all star in 26 more.)

All told, Chamberlain played against the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Embry, Lovellette, Elvin Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, McAdoo, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF. And, he even more than held his own against 7-2 Artis Gilmore in the 71-72 ABA-NBA all-star game.

[jacobgoindum]

How many post-seasons did Howard grab over 40% of his team's rebounds, and as many as 47% of them.

How many rebounding titles did Howard win?

How many rebounding titles did Howard win by 5 rpg?

How many playoff series did Howard outrebound the second best rebounder in the league by 9 rpg?

How many games did Howard outrebound the second best rebounder in the league by a 55-19 margin?

I could go on, but Chamberlain was THE most dominant rebounder of all-time, AND, he ELEVATED his rebounding in the POST-SEASON.

rebounds

'62 warriors
warriors = 5939
wilt = 2052
% = 34.6

'08 magic
magic = 3445
dwight = 1161
% = 33.7

dwight averaged only 36.1 mpg compared to 48.5 mpg for wilt
:oldlol:

[SuperPippen]

Read this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250076

I've skimmed through many of your Wilt-related posts, and while the numbers are definitely impressive, and while you have opened my eyes in regards to many Wilt-related myths, I just can't shake the feeling that those numbers don't tell the whole story, and that Wilt could have done better. Maybe I am underrating Wilt. Actually, looking over that post, I'm pretty sure I am.

I mean, even though I know that Wilt played an ungodly amount of minutes that he could not have feasibly played in today's NBA (which is a testament to his stamina and endurance), and even though I know that the pace when Wilt played was significantly higher than it is today (which lead to some inflated stats) and even though I know that the level of competition back then wasn't quite as talented as the competition today (although the preposterous notion that the league back then was inhabited by 6'6" white centers is an insult to any past legends of the game), and even after having heard about them for all of my basketball watching life, Wilt's numbers STILL blow my ****ing mind.

Look, I respect and remain in awe of Wilt. The dude was a sports legend, and there is not a single doubt in my mind that, if inserted into the present day, he would immediately be the most dominant center in the league.

But, the abilities of Kobe as a player just impress me more than those that I've seen of Wilt. Although, I admit, I have seen precious little in-game footage of Wilt at all during his career, and perhaps my my perception of Kobe as a greater basketball player is due to my having been exposed to him far more than I have been to Wilt.

As of right now, though, I have Kobe higher on my GOAT list.

[ThatsGame]

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVP's and 1 MVP because he has been carried.

[jacobgoindum]

do you understand what pace is yet?

[jacobgoindum]

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVP's and 1 MVP because he has been carried.
:roll:
you can say he was "carried" in '00, but other than that...:roll:

[jlauber]

rebounds

'62 warriors
warriors = 5939
wilt = 2052
% = 34.6

'08 magic
magic = 3445
dwight = 1161
% = 33.7

dwight averaged only 36.1 mpg compared to 48.5 mpg for wilt
:oldlol:

You better recheck the Warriors TOTAL rebounds again...

go ahead and add them up, player-by-player. It comes to 5105.

And that was not Wilt's greatest rebounding season.

Furthermore, Howard has never proven to be capable of playing 40 mpg...Wilt was playing 43.2 mpg in his LAST season, and BTW, after leading the NBA in rebounding, he then averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season, in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg.

[jacobgoindum]

You better recheck the Warriors TOTAL rebounds again...

go ahead and add them up, player-by-player. It comes to 5105.

And that was not Wilt's greatest rebounding season.

Furthermore, Howard has never proven to be capable of playing 40 mpg...Wilt was playing 43.2 mpg in his LAST season, and BTW, after leading the NBA in rebounding, he then averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season, in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html
team TRB = 5939
wilt = 2052

2052/5939 = 34.6%

[jlauber]

I've skimmed through many of your Wilt-related posts, and while the numbers are definitely impressive, and while you have opened my eyes in regards to many Wilt-related myths, I just can't shake the feeling that those numbers don't tell the whole story, and that Wilt could have done better. Maybe I am underrating Wilt. Actually, looking over that post, I'm pretty sure I am.

I mean, even though I know that Wilt played an ungodly amount of minutes that he could not have feasibly played in today's NBA (which is a testament to his stamina and endurance), and even though I know that the pace when Wilt played was significantly higher than it is today (which lead to some inflated stats) and even though I know that the level of competition back then wasn't quite as talented as the competition today (although the preposterous notion that the league back then was inhabited by 6'6" white centers is an insult to any past legends of the game), and even after having heard about them for all of my basketball watching life, Wilt's numbers STILL blow my ****ing mind.

Look, I respect and remain in awe of Wilt. The dude was a sports legend, and there is not a single doubt in my mind that, if inserted into the present day, he would immediately be the most dominant center in the league.

But, the abilities of Kobe as a player just impress me more than those that I've seen of Wilt. Although, I admit, I have seen precious little in-game footage of Wilt at all during his career, and perhaps my my perception of Kobe as a greater basketball player is due to my having been exposed to him far more than I have been to Wilt.

As of right now, though, I have Kobe higher on my GOAT list.

I respect most of your post. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, especially when they are well-thought out, but I just have to disagree with the part about the pace being signficantly higher back in the 60's. Even in Wilt's highest scoring season, 61-62, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Last season it was 99.6 ppg. And in MJ's '86-87 season, it was 109.9 ppg. Furthermore, there were seasons in the 60's, like 68-69, in which the league averaged 112.3 ppg (BTW, Chamberlain, despite seldom shooting at all, had TWO 60+ point games that season...one of them a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting.)

[jlauber]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html
team TRB = 5939
wilt = 2052

And it is wrong. Add them up... 5105 my friend. In fact, add up EVERY team's totals, player-by-player...not even close.

[jacobgoindum]

as you can see the pace

'62 warriors = 5939 total rebounds
'08 magic = 3445 total rebounds

[jacobgoindum]

And it is wrong. Add them up... 5105 my friend. In fact, add up EVERY team's totals, player-by-player...not even close.
:oldlol:
its added up for you
5939

[Smoke117]

what kind of stupid asshole match up is this?

[jlauber]

as you can see the pace

'62 warriors = 5939 total rebounds
'08 magic = 3445 total rebounds

5105 to 3345.

Once again, ADD them up!

Add up EVERY team in EVERY season during the 60's...they are all WRONG. And, I could tell you why, but since you are an "expert" on this subject, I will let you explain it to me.

[jacobgoindum]

5105 to 3345.

Once again, ADD them up!

Add up EVERY team in EVERY season during the 60's...they are all WRONG. And, I could tell you why, but since you are an "expert" on this subject, I will let you explain it to me.
:oldlol: you been getting your sleep old man?

[jlauber]

:oldlol: you been getting your sleep old man?

All right, young lad, I will do it for you...

61-62 Warriors rebounding totals, per player, in every minute they played...

Chamberlain 2052
Arizin 527
Meschery 729
Attles 355
Gola 587
Rodgers 348
Conlin 155
Yarese 71
Luckenbill 110
Ruklick 87
Radovich 51
McNeil 33

5105

NOT 5939

[The Choken One]

If Kobe played when Wilt did... his averages would be astronomical.

loling hard at the rebounding averages for Wilt...

[jacobgoindum]

'62 Wilt vs '92 Rodman

Rebounds

'62 Warriors
Team = 5105
Wilt = 2052
% = 40.2

'92 Pistons
Team = 3631
Dennis = 1530
% = 42.1

MPG
Wilt = 48.5
Dennis = 40.3

1.9 higher rebounding % with 8.2 less minutes per game

[jlauber]

'62 Wilt vs '92 Rodman

Rebounds

'62 Warriors
Team = 5105
Wilt = 2052
% = 40.2

'92 Pistons
Team = 3631
Dennis = 1530
% = 42.1

MPG
Wilt = 48.5
Dennis = 40.3

1.9 higher rebounding % with 8.2 less minutes per game

Care to compare Rodman and Wilt in the post-season? Or how much greater Wilt outperformed his peers in the post-season, as compared to Rodman?

BTW, how come Rodman only averaged 31.7 mpg in his career, while Chamberlain was at 45.2 mpg for his. I guess Rodman just didn't have the stamina to play full bore for over 40 mpg.

[TheFrozenOne]

Kobe...very easily IMO....Kobe is a better allaround player and a greater champion.





No hear even watched Wilt play:lol

[jacobgoindum]

Care to compare Rodman and Wilt in the post-season? Or how much greater Wilt outperformed his peers in the post-season, as compared to Rodman?

BTW, how come Rodman only averaged 31.7 mpg in his career, while Chamberlain was at 45.2 mpg for his. I guess Rodman just didn't have the stamina to play full bore for over 40 mpg.
lol just imagine rodman in the 60s :lol
too easy

[jlauber]

Kobe...very easily IMO....Kobe is a better allaround player and a greater champion.





No hear even watched Wilt play:lol

Actually those here that ACTUALLY did watch Wilt play, would easily take Chamberlain over Kobe. Why is that?

[jacobgoindum]

wilt's got the edge in playoff rebounding pretty good

[jlauber]

lol just imagine rodman in the 60s :lol
too easy

With Rodman's lack of offensive skills, he probably would have played about 10 mpg back in the 60's. Back then players were generally expected to SCORE and rebound.

[jacobgoindum]

With Rodman's lack of offensive skills, he probably would have played about 10 mpg back in the 60's. Back then players were generally expected to SCORE and rebound.
oh you mean shoot 30-40% AS BIGMEN

[jacobgoindum]

that 7'3" big man you posted, guess what he shot in his career?




































34.7%

[The Choken One]

Actually those here that ACTUALLY did watch Wilt play, would easily take Chamberlain over Kobe. Why is that?
Because they have Alzheimer's?

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. M. Jordan
2. M. Johnson
3. K. Abdul-Jabbar
4. B. Russell
5. L. Bird
6. S. O'Neal
7. K. Bryant
8. T. Duncan
9. H. Olajuwon
10. W. Chamberlain

:D

[TheFrozenOne]

Actually those here that ACTUALLY did watch Wilt play, would easily take Chamberlain over Kobe. Why is that?


because just as Tim Legler said today...most people choose the era that they grew up in as the best with the best players.


nearly every Blue hair in the chop shop says Baylor>MJ.....Wilt>Shaq... Russell>Duncan.


maybe 1 person here saw Wilt Play...the others just Hate Kobe's Greatness.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because they have Alzheimer's?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[32Dayz]

Wilt is the 4th best player on the GOAT list.
Kobe is somewhere from 11-15 on the GOAT list.

By this simple and profound fact Wilt > Kobe.

/Thread.

Jordan > Shaq > Kareem > Wilt > Magic > Bird > Hakeem > Duncan > Russell > West > (Oscar / Moses / Dr. J / Kobe / KG)

[Pursuer]

because just as Tim Legler said today...most people choose the era that they grew up in as the best with the best players.


nearly every Blue hair in the chop shop says Baylor>MJ.....Wilt>Shaq... Russell>Duncan.


maybe 1 person here saw Wilt Play...the others just Hate Kobe's Greatness.

This is quite honestly one of the best posts on ISH.

[PTB Fan]

Wilt.

Defensively he was better, more complete, more dominant, made better impact, is as good passer as Kobe is and has a better resume. Let's not forget that he has a big advantage in offense as well.

[Psileas]

The one with an argument for GOAT, and that's not Kobe, as much as I like him, as well. "5 vs 2" tells me nothing, when Kobe had Shaq next to him. If Wilt (supposedly Kobe's "comparison" here) had Jordan (Shaq's equivalent as a guard dominator) next to him and played in the 00's, you bet he'd have way more than 2 rings himself, while still doing more things than Kobe.

Note on rebounding: Wilt's and Russell's rebounding rates for most of their seasons are at around 20-21 throughout their whole careers (slightly higher in the playoffs). Rodman's are higher, but, completely unlike these two, Rodman contested almost zero shots, especially late in his career and in set game situations. If Wilt and Russell had 6-8 bpg seasons, imagine how many shots they contested. Take away their defensive efforts in the air and convert them into rebounding efforts, and their rates would jump up.

Here's some food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-R3bBmhqU

This is Mutombo's 1994 First round series against the Sonics. He blocked 31 shots in 5 games, a Wilt/Russell-like figure. He retained possession of the ball (def.rebound) after only 4 of them (12.9% recuperation rate). His defensive rebounding rate that season was at 25.8, and it would be significantly higher if he didn't care about blocked shots - his blocks were 49% as many as his defensive rebounds! Rodman, in his rebounding prime, usually blocked less than 5% as many shots as the defensive rebounds he grabbed. Do the math. These great shot blockers are all better rebounders than what their rebounding rates show.

[Bob Cousy]

Sooo ... are people still claiming that Bryant is not top 10 all time ?

Julius Erving has been definitely been bumped out of his spot.

[PTB Fan]

Sooo ... are people still claiming that Bryant is not top 10 all time ?

Julius Erving has been definitely been bumped out of his spot.

Dr J is overlooked these days.

[32Dayz]

Dr J is overlooked these days.

As is Jerry West, Moses Malone, Oscar and even KG.

[La Frescobaldi]

PACE PACE PACE!!!

BTW Kobe 5 rings, Wilt 2 rings

***********************************
Did you ever ask yourself this question:

"I wonder why the NBA's pace suddenly got so much faster in the 1959-60 season, and kept getting faster, and faster, until in 1962 it was blitzkrieg fastest pace of all time?"

That is a curious fact.... how and why did that happen, exactly? Do you know? Did you ever think about that?

***********************************

PACE PACE PACE!!!

BTW Kobe 5 rings, Wilt 2 rings

***********************************

Did you ever ask yourself these questions:

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he did not win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

Or these:

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he did not win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

*********************************************

There are some curious factors when you start thinking deeper about the game.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

***********************************
Did you ever ask yourself this question:

"I wonder why the NBA's pace suddenly got so much faster in the 1959-60 season, and kept getting faster, and faster, until in 1962 it was blitzkrieg fastest pace of all time?"

That is a curious fact.... how and why did that happen, exactly? Do you know? Did you ever think about that?

***********************************


***********************************

Did you ever ask yourself these questions:

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he did not win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

Or these:

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he did not win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

*********************************************

There are some curious factors when you start thinking deeper about the game.

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"

1 other all star/HOFer per title team

* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"

Yes for 3, no for 2

* "How deep was his bench when he won?"

Not deep at all

* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"

Sure.. a healthy Malone and Bynum/Ariza and we are potentially talking about 7 rings

* "Did he have a great coach?

Yes

:confusedshrug:

[32Dayz]

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"

1 other all star/HOFer per title team

:confusedshrug:

LoL @ comparing Peak Shaq to an average All-Star or HoFamer.

:oldlol:

[La Frescobaldi]

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"

1 other all star/HOFer per title team

* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"

Yes for 3, no for 2

* "How deep was his bench when he won?"

Not deep at all

* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"

Sure.. a healthy Malone and Bynum/Ariza and we are potentially talking about 7 rings

* "Did he have a great coach?

Yes

:confusedshrug:

you gonna answer some questions but not the others? That's the same thing OP is doing

[mohmezherismaie]

Wilt is the 4th best player on the GOAT list.
Kobe is somewhere from 11-15 on the GOAT list.

By this simple and profound fact Wilt > Kobe.

/Thread.

Jordan > Shaq > Kareem > Wilt > Magic > Bird > Hakeem > Duncan > Russell > West > (Oscar / Moses / Dr. J / Kobe / KG)



did kobe f*ck your mother or something? why are you in EVERY SINGLE thread related to kobe saying the same exact things? aright we get that you dislike him...

its getting repeatitive and pretty pathetic on your part -- if anything im starting to think your a bit obsessed at this point --

ive noticed a nation of kobe haters on this forum, but without a doubt you stand out the most!! --- do you have a life outside of home? any friends you can vent to about your hate for kobe?


damn son!

[32Dayz]

Posts: 2
Who's multi account are you? :oldlol:
:cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

you gonna answer some questions but not the others? That's the same thing OP is doing

Is there a point coming up?

[32Dayz]

Is there a point coming up?

Are you too dumb to not understand that Peak Shaq is arguably the best player ever?

Not over a Career obviously but just over his Peak.

Your acting like Kobe won as the man on 5 teams while playing with an average all-star and no bench.

Your delusional as f*.

Kobe was in a Pippen role for 3 of his rings and was the 2nd best player on one of his other two ring winning teams.

Are we really supposed to put a player who was the best player on 1 championship team and who clearly isnt a Top 10 alltime playoff performer in the top 10?

Hell no.

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you too dumb to not understand that Peak Shaq is arguably the best player ever?

Not over a Career obviously but just over his Peak.

Your acting like Kobe won as the man on 5 teams while playing with an average all-star and no bench.

Your delusional as f*.

Kobe was in a Pippen role for 3 of his rings and was the 2nd best player on one of his other two ring winning teams.

Are we really supposed to put a player who was the best player on 1 championship team and who clearly isnt a Top 10 alltime playoff performer in the top 10?

Hell no.

:facepalm

I'm pretty sure Kobe has already shred the can't win without Shaq label. Did you not get the memo?

[32Dayz]

I'm pretty sure Kobe has already shred the can't win without Shaq label. Did you not get the memo?

He won a Ring in a weak year and against one of the weakest finals teams in recent history (Orlando).
He also won thanks to Gasols defense on Dwight and his own production
(20/10/2 60%FG)

Then he barely won another against Boston thanks mainly to Gasol stepping up and some major clutch moments by various roleplayers.

Just saying its not like he dominated the league without Shaq.

He did win more but with some really stacked teams and he was only the best player on 1 of those 2 teams.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He won a Ring in a weak year and against one of the weakest finals teams in recent history (Orlando).
He also won thanks to Gasols defense on Dwight and his own production
(20/10/2 60%FG)

Then he barely won another against Boston thanks mainly to Gasol stepping up and some major clutch moments by various roleplayers.

Just saying its not like he dominated the league without Shaq.

He did win more but with some really stacked teams and he was only the best player on 1 of those 2 teams.

The Magic nearly won 60 games. :confusedshrug:

The Lakers were not historically stacked by any stretch of the imagination.

[LA_Showtime]

He won a Ring in a weak year and against one of the weakest finals teams in recent history (Orlando).
He also won thanks to Gasols defense on Dwight and his own production
(20/10/2 60%FG)

Then he barely won another against Boston thanks mainly to Gasol stepping up and some major clutch moments by various roleplayers.

Just saying its not like he dominated the league without Shaq.

He did win more but with some really stacked teams and he was only the best player on 1 of those 2 teams.

This post is just idiotic. I've said it countless times that the Lakers were lucky to win two championships, but they still won. They got to the Finals THREE years in a row. That's ****ing hard to do, especially when your center is always injured, your play at point guard is spotty, and you have no depth. I wouldn't say he "dominated" the league, but then again, who has?

[32Dayz]

This post is just idiotic. I've said it countless times that the Lakers were lucky to win two championships, but they still won. They got to the Finals THREE years in a row. That's ****ing hard to do, especially when your center is always injured, your play at point guard is spotty, and you have no depth. I wouldn't say he "dominated" the league, but then again, who has?

I wouldn't say they had no depth.

They had always managed to get a mix of some high quality roleplayers who stepped up when needed.

And the Combo of Kobe/Gasol was one of the best in the league + they had Prime Odom coming off the bench.

Those teams are underrated in general.

Even this year they have enough talent to contend despite losing Odom.

[Deuce Bigalow]

did kobe f*ck your mother or something? why are you in EVERY SINGLE thread related to kobe saying the same exact things? aright we get that you dislike him...

its getting repeatitive and pretty pathetic on your part -- if anything im starting to think your a bit obsessed at this point --

ive noticed a nation of kobe haters on this forum, but without a doubt you stand out the most!! --- do you have a life outside of home? any friends you can vent to about your hate for kobe?


damn son!
Lmao
32Dayz gets destroyed by everyone everyday

[La Frescobaldi]

Is there a point coming up?

Did Chamberlain impact the NBA's pace, or was it just coincidence that he showed up and the entire league pace drastically increased?

Did Kobe impact the league to such an extent they had to re-write the entire rulebook? But even when the NBA made up all those new rules to stop him, did Kobe still break 150 records? {P.S. there aren't any rules designed to stop Kobe}

Is Phil Jackson a better coach than Neil Johnston? What about Dolph Schayes or Dick McGuire or Joe Mulaney or Butch Van Breda Kopf? Is he a better coach than them?

Is Robert Horry better in his league than Tom Meschery was in his?

How about Tom Gola? Was he a better playoff performer in his league than........ ANY starter on Kobe's teams?

1959-60 12.6 ppg .412 fg% 10.6 reb 5.6 ast

1960-61 9.7 ppg .206 fg% 12.3 reb 5.0 ast

1961-62 6.3 ppg .271FG% 8.2 reb 2.7 ast

************************************************** *
What about Lamar Odom ? Is he a better 6th man his league than Billy Cunningham was in '68 when he broke his arm in 3 places in the playoffs?

Is Elgin Baylor's 1970 and '71 playoff record better than Pau Gasol's 2009 & 2010 playoff record?

Speaking of the '71 playoffs, how did Wilt's star teammates Baylor and West perform? {P.S. they both drew DNP}

If you don't see the point then, no, i guess not.

[ThaRegul8r]

Note on rebounding: Wilt's and Russell's rebounding rates for most of their seasons are at around 20-21 throughout their whole careers (slightly higher in the playoffs). Rodman's are higher, but, completely unlike these two, Rodman contested almost zero shots, especially late in his career and in set game situations. If Wilt and Russell had 6-8 bpg seasons, imagine how many shots they contested. Take away their defensive efforts in the air and convert them into rebounding efforts, and their rates would jump up.

Here's some food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-R3bBmhqU

This is Mutombo's 1994 First round series against the Sonics. He blocked 31 shots in 5 games, a Wilt/Russell-like figure. He retained possession of the ball (def.rebound) after only 4 of them (12.9% recuperation rate). His defensive rebounding rate that season was at 25.8, and it would be significantly higher if he didn't care about blocked shots - his blocks were 49% as many as his defensive rebounds! Rodman, in his rebounding prime, usually blocked less than 5% as many shots as the defensive rebounds he grabbed. Do the math. These great shot blockers are all better rebounders than what their rebounding rates show.

I've posted about this elsewhere. As of the 2010-11 season (when I posted this), in the seasons in which we have the data, there have been 72 seasons in which a player has grabbed 20% of all available rebounds. Of those 72 occurrences, only eight times (11.1%) has a player actually blocked over three shots a game:

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]The highest single-season block percentages belong to Manute Bol, who was an anemic rebounder. On the career list, the best combination of shot-blocking and rebounding is Dikembe Mutombo, who blocked 6.28 percent of all available shots, and grabbed 19.1 percent of all available rebounds. Looking at the top single seasons:

1. Dennis Rodman* 29.73 1994-95 SAS
2. Dennis Rodman* 26.56 1995-96 CHI
3. Dennis Rodman* 26.19 1991-92 DET
4. Dennis Rodman* 25.99 1992-93 DET
5. Dennis Rodman* 25.74 1993-94 SAS
6. Dennis Rodman* 25.61 1996-97 CHI
7. Dennis Rodman* 24.08 1997-98 CHI
8. Jayson Williams 23.78 1995-96 NJN
9. Danny Fortson 23.70 1998-99 DEN
10. Kevin Love 23.63 2010-11 MIN

Not a single shotblocker to be found. Let

[bizil]

When u put up the numbers Wilt did AND revolutionize the sport, it's VERY HARD to pass up Wilt. Kobe's has sick numbers, a ton rings, etc. But Kobe didn't revolutionize the SG spot. Wilt has those two things on his side like a Magic, Bird, MJ, and Kareem. All five of these guys revolutionized their positions. Even Duncan, KG, and Dirk did it at the same time for the PF position. Kobe was so similar to MJ that u can't out MJ MJ! lol

However if Kobe keeps padding that resume, who knows how far he will go up the GOAT charts. But guys like MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic are MYTHIC type figures. It's like Ali and Ray Robinson in boxing. Or baseball wise it's like Ruth, Mays, Ted Williams, or Aaron. Some guys have a certain mystique that keeps them at the top even if certain guys resumes may be better. It seems Kobe maybe in that boat. We shall see!

[Deuce Bigalow]

La Fres...

Wilt was a second option in '69 when Jerry West averaged 38 PPG in the '69 Finals and had 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists in game 7
not only that, Elgin Baylor was on the team too (top 20 player alltime)
And they DIDN'T win the championship

[RRR3]

La Fres...

Wilt was a second option in '69 when Jerry West averaged 38 PPG in the '69 Finals and had 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists in game 7
not only that, Elgin Baylor was on the team too (top 20 player alltime)
And they DIDN'T win the championship

Wilt>>>Kobe. Deal with it, Poop Bigego

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt>>>Kobe. Deal with it, Poop Bigego
Go watch some Tmac playoff highlights fool

and according to Sam Jones (teammate of Bill Russell during 50's/60's, won 10 rings) Kobe is 3rd best player ever

[Doctor Rivers]

Are you too dumb to not understand that Peak Shaq is arguably the best player ever?

Not over a Career obviously but just over his Peak.

Your acting like Kobe won as the man on 5 teams while playing with an average all-star and no bench.

Your delusional as f*.

Kobe was in a Pippen role for 3 of his rings and was the 2nd best player on one of his other two ring winning teams.

Are we really supposed to put a player who was the best player on 1 championship team and who clearly isnt a Top 10 alltime playoff performer in the top 10?

Hell no.

:facepalm

Do you consider peak Shaq > any version of Wilt?

[Story Up]

Wilt for now.

[PHILA]

VS Boston - 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, 6+ bpg, 56% FG, 51% FT


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=6m30s


Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champion Philadelphia 76ers - Wayne Lynch

As soon as the 76ers reached the dressing room after their exhilarating last quarter that had given them a 140-116 victory, Wilt made a speech: "we've got to get four more wins before this season is over. Let's not lose sight of that," He was forceful, almost solemn. Such an attitude had as much to do with Philadelphia's success as Wilt's unmatched physical endowments. The key word was spoken afterwards by Alex Hannum, the 76er coach: "He was dedicated out there."


http://i38.tinypic.com/2a6pceb.gif

[Round Mound]

This Topic is funny.

Get Real People ...Wilt Needed Rule Changes to Stop Him From Dominating Too Much.

Kobe wasn`t even Better than Garnett in his Prime, Duncan in his Prime, Hakeem in his Prime, Charles Barkley in his Prime, David Robinson in Prime, Magic in his Prime, Bird in his Prime and Shaq in his Prime.

All those players statistically are more Efficient and Dominant.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This Topic is funny.

Get Real People ...Wilt Needed Rule Changes to Stop Him From Dominating Too Much.

Kobe wasn`t even Better than Garnett in his Prime, Duncan in his Prime, Hakeem in his Prime, Charles Barkley in his Prime, David Robinson in Prime, Magic in his Prime, Bird in his Prime and Shaq in his Prime.

All those players statistically are more Efficient and Dominant.
Well since you love PER, I'll play your game

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3

[Bob Cousy]

This Topic is funny.

Get Real People ...Wilt Needed Rule Changes to Stop Him From Dominating Too Much.

Kobe wasn`t even Better than Garnett in his Prime, Duncan in his Prime, Hakeem in his Prime, Charles Barkley in his Prime, David Robinson in Prime, Magic in his Prime, Bird in his Prime and Shaq in his Prime.

All those players statistically are more Efficient and Dominant.
Prime Kobe = Prime Garnett = Prime Chuck.

[Round Mound]

Well since you love PER, I'll play your game

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3

The difference was that Magic and Bird played with alot of HOFs and or All Stars so their games where based on Team Game instead of an Individual Game (Kobe always). Playing with alot of HOFs and Stars lowers your PER especially if you have 3-4 All Stars or HOFs playing together.

I think you should compare their PERs according to their time and where they locate among their generation of players.

Bird i think lead 2 Seasons in PER or 1 and he stayed among the Best in the Play-Offs. For Magic he had one of the Highest PER in the Play-Offs and what he did in the Finals was just unreal. Bird had 2 Rings without McHale as a Starter. Lets not forget that. Also, Bird averaged a Triple Double in the 1986 Finals.

Bird and Magic are also Highe in EFF and Plus/Minus. Probably also Higher in Shot Made/Missed Diferential too

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Did Chamberlain impact the NBA's pace, or was it just coincidence that he showed up and the entire league pace drastically increased?

Did Kobe impact the league to such an extent they had to re-write the entire rulebook? But even when the NBA made up all those new rules to stop him, did Kobe still break 150 records? {P.S. there aren't any rules designed to stop Kobe}

Is Phil Jackson a better coach than Neil Johnston? What about Dolph Schayes or Dick McGuire or Joe Mulaney or Butch Van Breda Kopf? Is he a better coach than them?

Is Robert Horry better in his league than Tom Meschery was in his?

How about Tom Gola? Was he a better playoff performer in his league than........ ANY starter on Kobe's teams?

1959-60 12.6 ppg .412 fg% 10.6 reb 5.6 ast

1960-61 9.7 ppg .206 fg% 12.3 reb 5.0 ast

1961-62 6.3 ppg .271FG% 8.2 reb 2.7 ast

************************************************** *
What about Lamar Odom ? Is he a better 6th man his league than Billy Cunningham was in '68 when he broke his arm in 3 places in the playoffs?

Is Elgin Baylor's 1970 and '71 playoff record better than Pau Gasol's 2009 & 2010 playoff record?

Speaking of the '71 playoffs, how did Wilt's star teammates Baylor and West perform? {P.S. they both drew DNP}

If you don't see the point then, no, i guess not.


Yeah forgive me if I don't see the merit of debating unremarkable bench players from different eras.

Did Wilt play with any all stars?

Did he play with any HOFers?

[Deuce Bigalow]

The difference was that Magic and Bird played with alot of HOFs and or All Stars so their games where based on Team Game instead of an Individual Game (Kobe always). Playing with alot of HOFs and Stars lowers your PER especially if you have 3-4 All Stars or HOFs playing together.

I think you should compare their PERs according to their time and where they locate among their generation of players.

Bird i think lead 2 Seasons in PER or 1 and he stayed among the Best in the Play-Offs. For Magic he had one of the Highest PER in the Play-Offs and what he did in the Finals was just unreal. Bird had 2 Rings without McHale as a Starter. Lets not forget that. Also, Bird averaged a Triple Double in the 1986 Finals.

Bird and Magic are also Highe in EFF and Plus/Minus. Probably also Higher in Shot Made/Missed Diferential too
Kobe's 2009 Playoff run had a 26.8 PER (higher PER than any of Magic's and Bird's best playoff runs) and had a 28.3 PER in the 2009 Finals (Higher than any of Magic's, Bird's, Hakeem's, Kareem's best Finals performances)

[jlauber]

Yeah forgive me if I don't see the merit of debating unremarkable bench players from different eras.

Did Wilt play with any all stars?

Did he play with any HOFers?

Chamberlain, with LITTLE help, faced the Celtic Dynasty in TEN of his 14 seasons. Those Celtic teams ranged from FIVE to NINE HOFers on EACH roster. Then, Wilt faced the Knicks in the post-season, FOUR more seasons, and those Knick teams had between FOUR to SIX HOFers on each of them.

I tell you what, give me another "great" that had to go thru team's that collectively had TEN HOFers, in three straight playoff series, like Wilt's '67 Sixers faced (and they ROUTED all three of those teams BTW.)

And La Frescobaldi already DESTROYED the Simmons' MYTH that Wilt played with as many HOFers as Russell. Russell played alongside his HOF teammates in 71 FULL seasons...while Wilt got 20 FULL seasons from his.

The fact that Wilt could single-handedly carry his 61-62 and 64-65 rosters to within a TOTAL of THREE points, in two game seven's is truly remarkable. He also took a roster that couldn't beat a team of rookies and scrubs in a pre-season scrimmage (sans Wilt, of course) to a 48-32 record in the '64 season, and a trip to the Finals, where they lost to Russell's Celtics, and their 8-2 edge in HOFers, 4-1. And two of those losses were decided in the last few seconds. All with a cast of clowns, who played even WORSE in the post-season.

[La Frescobaldi]

Yeah forgive me if I don't see the merit of debating unremarkable bench players from different eras.

Did Wilt play with any all stars?

Did he play with any HOFers?

All those guys were starters except Odom & Billy C

HoFers? Like Tom Gola? The guy who shot .206% in the playoffs - yeah he's HoF

[jlauber]

La Fres...

Wilt was a second option in '69 when Jerry West averaged 38 PPG in the '69 Finals and had 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists in game 7
not only that, Elgin Baylor was on the team too (top 20 player alltime)
And they DIDN'T win the championship

How about this...

A Baylor who shot a team WORST .385 from the floor in that post-season?

Or Baylor and West collectively shooting 1-14 in the 4th quarter of game three, a six point loss. Baylor scored a TOTAL of 24 points in games three thru five (two of the losses.) Or the fact that Baylor shot 8-22 from the field in that game seven, two-point loss. Or the fact that, while Chamberlain went 7-8 from the floor in that game seven, his teammates collectively shot .360 from the field in that game.

Oh, and incidently, how about West in the 71-72 playoffs, when he shot .376 during the entire playoffs, and get this, .325 in the Finals. Meanwhile, Wilt shutdown Kareem in the WCF's, particularly in the clinching game six win, and then dominated the Knicks in the Finals, particularly in the clinching game five win, en route to a FMVP.

[zizozain]

lol @ Wilt Chamberlian with an argument for GOAT :facepalm

[jlauber]

lol @ Wilt Chamberlian with an argument for GOAT :facepalm

Yeah...just because he STILL holds some 100+ NBA records. Or that he absolutely crushed his peers(and his opposing centers...MANY of whom are in the HOF) throughout his career, like NO OTHER player ever did. Or that the NBA had to create MULTIPLE RULES to curtail his domination.

Or that he was one of the GREATEST PLAYOFF performers of all-time, especially in BIG games. And that he usually just MURDERED his opposing centers in those playoffs.

Yep... no case.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wilt beat up on friggin bums

[jlauber]

Wilt beat up on friggin bums

Yep...players like Bellamy, Reed, Cowens, Hayes, Thurmond, McAdoo, Unseld, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF.

[jlauber]

Wilt beat up on friggin bums

How about this...

In Wilt's LAST season, at age 36, he was voted first-team all-defense; he LED the NBA in rebounding (and then averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games, which was the last time a player ever averaged as much as 17.3 rpg in the post-season); he shot .727 from the field, which is an all-time record; he led his Laker team to a 60-22 record, and a trip to the Finals; and he finished 4th in the MVP voting...

in a league that centers like McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Unseld, Lanier, and Kareem...once again...ALL in the HOF.

[bizil]

I do feel in terms of perimeter players that Kobe only stands behind MJ peak value wise. I know many of u will say what about Magic or Bird. Or maybe even West or Big O? I think in particular Magic, Bird, and Big O have a case as the second best perimeter player ever in terms of peak. But I would go with Kobe as the second best perimeter player ever peak value wise.

But a GOAT list includes longevity being great, team accolades, solo accolades, numbers, and impact on the L. Kobe holds his own and even eclipses Magic and Bird in some of these areas. But when it comes to impact on the L, I still think Magic and Bird have the edge on Kobe. If anything because Bird and Magic are the ones who set the NBA in motion for what we see today. I give Doc major props for being the forerunner. But he didn't really get to bask in the glow of the marketing schemes in his prime. Bird and Magic were the ones to get the marketing ball really rolling, setting the table for MJ to really take it and run with it. And each man revolutionized their positions as well.

I think a guy like Bron could have the best shot to challenge MJ at the top. Because Bron revolutionized his position. And is the face of the L. But the question is will he have more killer instinct moments and win some rings. If he does, u are looking at a guy who could possibly ring up at least 30,000 points and around 9-10,000 assists. Which has never been done. Hell NOBODY has even got 20,000 points and 10,000 assists in a career yet. By all rights, Magic SHOULD have been the guy to do it first. But Bron has the chance to really shake up the GOAT list and put up some of the gaudiest career numbers in sports history.

[PHILA]

Wilt beat up on friggin bums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=1m55s


Above we can see how easily he obtains proper position and slams over strong 6'9 240 lb C/F Ray Scott. This is perhaps what it would look like if Chamberlain faced today's centers. Nobody besides Howard can even think of respectably matching up against him.

[bizil]

How about this...

In Wilt's LAST season, at age 36, he was voted first-team all-defense; he LED the NBA in rebounding (and then averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games, which was the last time a player ever averaged as much as 17.3 rpg in the post-season); he shot .727 from the field, which is an all-time record; he led his Laker team to a 60-22 record, and a trip to the Finals; and he finished 4th in the MVP voting...

in a league that centers like McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Unseld, Lanier, and Kareem...once again...ALL in the HOF.

Good points! People sleep on the great longevity Wilt had in his career as a great player. He started as a great player AND ended as a great player. I think only Kareem had greater longevity being great at the center spot. And even when Kareem wasn't great, he was still one of the best centers in L during a peak time for centers.

[jongib369]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m949t5wNfw1qc40o1o1_400.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31235830.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m949t5wNfw1qc40o1o1_400.jpg
:bowdown:

[RRR3]

Didn't Kobe say Wilt was the GOAT once?

[CavaliersFTW]

Didn't Kobe say Wilt was the GOAT once?
He said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=78UnLCWORtQ

HumbleBE knows who's best

[Poetry]

name me another 7 footer who played in the 60s
name me another player who weighed over 250 pounds in the 60's
:facepalm


Just off the top of my head...Swede Habrook was 7-3. Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, Walter Dukes, Tom Boerwinkle were all 7-0. 7-2 Kareem played in 1969.

Boerwinkle, Luke Jackson, Wayne Embry were all over 250 lbs.

BTW, players were measured in barefeet in the 60's and 70's. So the MANY of them that were 6-11 (Bellamy and Thurmond among them) would have been measured, and listed, at over 7-0 in TODAY's NBA.

BTW, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain did, and never came CLOSE to matching a prime Chamberlain's domination of those same players.

:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

:facepalm



:applause:
Embry peaked at 270, Bellamy 265, Boerwinkle 275, Lanier 286lbs etc. Which centers are bigger than that in the league today? Which centers are taller than Swede?

[NumberSix]

Kobes Brian