Im going to sound like a complaining old hater for a moment here but hear me out....

[Kblaze8855]

Who else remembers when you couldnt carry to get by your man?

Im not just talking about the NBA. Its that way there...but just...playing ball. Remember playing before the mid 90s when people started trying to do crossovers and hesitations every time they got in a one on one situation?

Playing ball with kids(I consider kids people under like 20 for this discussion though not in everyday life) its just isolation after isolation people trying to rock you to sleep and hit you with a crossover.

Now...I dont mind really. Its not just...less fun. But watching a few old videos the difference really stood out. A guy like Isiah...or Tiny Archibald. I'll go with tiny for now. I watched a video on Danny Ainge saying he couldnt keep him in front of him in practice and that was Tiny on his last legs.

You watch and they have to dribble low...quickly...let them change direction so fast they would just zip around.

But guys like Jordan came along and would kinda get low and use the insane first step to just explode past you while just barely staying on the side of the ball or getting under it a little.

And it evolved as things do. and its really the main difference between back i nthe day handles and today. its not like people who play ball 8 hours a day dont learn to protect it and get around. They arent less skilled with the ball id say. But half the "moves" people do now are based on either a flat out carry or getting close.

My favorite player right now...Derrick Rose. he probably does what used to be called a carry....25 times a game. Literally. Ive been called for a carry for doing less than he does standing still dribbling at times. Jason Kidd used o carry the whole way up court. As did Grant Hill on the Pistons. People stopped dribbling low to protect it and started dribbling really high but getting under the ball a bit so they could just explode past people trying to reach if they had to.

Rose...Wade. Or here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TAwv7CIlqQ


Rondo. They are too athletic to stop when they can just get under it and push off to blow by. Plenty of guys who straight destroy guys one on one have crazy loose handles that just beg for you to reach but they then just carry the ball and....run by you. Then dribble.

Its exciting and all. I dont exactly want to see 5 carries called a game.

But I do wonder what someone like Isiah could do if he didnt need to dribble it 18 times in 12 seconds to confuse you and could just lean one way carry the other and use his quickness.

What made me notice the difference wasnt playing some kids as you might expect. But playing an old guy. Idont even know his name but he was a D1 player back in the day. Hes probably around 50. hes related to my neighbors I play ball with now and then.

He shows up and im telling you..old man is a beast. he doesnt just score a lot but you can tell in his prime he would be nasty. Beautiful form on his shot. you can tell hes taken a lot of free throws too. same routine every time. He doesnt miss. Period. And its frustrating to guard him because he dribbles damn near on the ground. Its a hassle. you have to pull some Jordan hanes commercial white guy "I can get so low in these...I bet I could take you in these...I bet I can take you" shit to even bother him.

He cant WAIT to call a carry. But hes pretty much always right. People do carry...we just pretend the rule doesnt exist anymore.

At this point there is nothing to be done about it. And you cant blame anyone for abusing it when we as fans dont care and the refs wont call it.

But it just makes me wonder how much more effective some of the old guys could be if they could do it at the rate players can now.

Any of the(I suspect...few) regular ball players here call guys out when they carry during games and if so...what is the reaction you get?

Is it as negative as I assume?

You are pretty much considered a douche if you even try to call it arent you?

[Kiarip]

I feel you I especially hate these crossovers that are both hesitation and a crossover all in one. Wade does them a LOT... like there's no way that's not a carry.

like he pushes it in front of him, and then crosses over... the ball changes direction while his hand is on it like 3 times...

[Cali Syndicate]

It's all in the favor of entertainment I think. Watching a defender on skates is fun to watch so they turn a blind eye to it.

[MJ(Mean John)]

Lol yeah.
I can't remember Ever calling a carry. I will call a double or occasional travel if it's getting obvious.

But I cant stand that 1 guy who does nothing but "cross over" and he carries the ball ALL DAY. I won't call it, but I will say out loud (after he scores) "damn. That motherfukcer keeps carrying that shit. All day"

[eliteballer]

wade

[Kblaze8855]

Sometimes I watch a guy try to stay in front of Rose, Wade, or when he feels like it Lebron and I imagine the ref in back as the old And-1 show announcer yelling "No holding no holding!" watching close but only to make sure the defender doesnt somehow break up the highlight by cheating as much as his opponent.

Id be pissed off in an isolation on one of those guys. Not only are they bigger and faster to begin with....but the rules have it set so my help cant stand in the paint behind me, I cant reach in but he can carry, and if i even attempt to bump him as he illegally blows by me no matter how far from the rim he is hes gonna keep going after the whistle lay it in and get the and 1.

Id get broken off 1 time too many and pull a hate fueled Cuban and compile hours of video footage and send it to the league with a copy of the rules on ball handling and make someone tell me why the refs wont call it. Id be pointing it out every possession like the jerks on the playground who just cant let it slide.

Id find a way to be heard....just up until my own teammates got me benched because they want to carry too.

[Cali Syndicate]

Lol yeah.
I can't remember Ever calling a carry. I will call a double or occasional travel if it's getting obvious.

But I cant stand that 1 guy who does nothing but "cross over" and he carries the ball ALL DAY. I won't call it, but I will say out loud (after he scores) "damn. That motherfukcer keeps carrying that shit. All day"

If he keeps palming it every time he touches the ball, I'll call him on it. I might not call a dead play on it but I'll straight up say "you carrying like every time you dribble. Either stop doing that shit else Imma start calling that." Those would be my exact words too.

[Pushxx]

Man this is an insanely insightful and accurate post.

The way the game evolves further devalues from the skills and talents of players in older eras (especially the 80s).

Great post, Kblaze.

John Wall with the usual NBA, fastbreak carry: http://www.nba.com/video/games/wizards/2012/02/08/0021100375_nyk_was_play3.nba
Nothing against him but just another example.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea...there are really just 2 kinds of great fast break players these days. The Lebron types who throw it out 20 feet in front of them to go coast to coast running fast after the loose ball over and over....and the type who run with it and change direction with a carry 4 times or carry to remove the extra dribble so they can just run a little to get there quicker.

Jason Kidds super carry fast breaks on the nets were hilarious. he might carry it 4 times on one fast break. Manu does it too.

They dont really bother me though. At least not as much. Magic used to do those.

But isolation carries? Ive always loved playing defense. One on one defense. Dealing with a guy who will carry all the time is just annoying. And its not like im guarding Wade or anything.

I dont know what you can do vs guys like that.

Never played a slasher near that level. The best guards ive ever guarded were Shammond Williams and Merl Code(clemson...Dleague...was on some NBA teams in the preseason I think). And they were nasty shooters more than anything not just...beat you up off the dribble slashers. At least not when we played.

I wouldnt mind guarding a Monta ellis, Wade, or Rose with current NBA rules just to see how helpless a guy has to feel. Must be a shot to your pride at times.

Im not mad if someone is just making jumpers. But to get walked by over and over the way they do? It must feel like losing a drop of manhood every time.

[ZenMaster]

The way I see it as a coach is: if it's not called it's not a carry, so I teach my guys how to do it most effectively.

In Europe will let you get away with a lot of dribbling these days just like in the NBA but they'll never let you travel the way they do it in the NBA, not even close.

[Kblaze8855]

I suppose if it isnt called it isnt a problem. I wonder how AI felt when the league decided all of a sudden that his crossover was a carry but nobody elses was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgMbhTj8HcU

That wouldnt be called on anyone else. Lots of times in the late 90s he got called for shit that guys like Grant Hill could do all day.

[Glide2keva]

I hear you man.

It bothers me watching the game. I see both teams traveling and carrying the ball all the time and I sit there like "are they seriously not calling that?"

It's frustrating when you know the rules and you only see them applied in certain situations.

[JohnnySic]

National Basketball Entertainment

http://blog.themavenreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/wwe_nba_600.jpg

[RaininTwos]

I suppose if it isnt called it isnt a problem. I wonder how AI felt when the league decided all of a sudden that his crossover was a carry but nobody elses was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgMbhTj8HcU

That wouldnt be called on anyone else. Lots of times in the late 90s he got called for shit that guys like Grant Hill could do all day.
He was the only one who got called for carries consistently. I agree with your posts though, very insightful.

[ILLsmak]

Yeah, I've never had a cross over.

Really the whole idea of fancy dribbling is lulz to me. I've seen kids with crazy handles. It's kind of like okay when you are done doing what you are doing actually make a move so I can cut you off.

I'd love to just dribble and act like I didn't know what I was doing... make some stupid Toine shimmy fakes and then just get by someone. It's so easy to get by someone and requires no cross over. Sure it looks nice, but all you have to do is get to the point where they are slightly off balance and just burn them the other way. So I guess by the definition of the word it could be a cross over, but it's not something that you emphasize rocking the ball like Iverson would.

I've always been a fan of the spin... going one way putting your body against someone and spinning around the other way is a great move and cooler looking than just a cross over.

Of course I remember when I did a spin on someone playing in a church when I was in HS and smacked my head into a pillar of wood.

Still the spin and especially the spin where you go between your legs... very effective and easy moves. Easier than a cross over and people tend to give you more leeway with carrying if you are spinning. Because if you are spinning right you are going to have the ball almost palmed (or stuck in place because of the motion) while you are changing directions.

-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

I do notice that a lot of guys in the 70s had nice spin moves. Earl, tiny Frazier and so on. made up for no crossover I suppose.

[La Frescobaldi]

I do notice that a lot of guys in the 70s had nice spin moves. Earl, tiny Frazier and so on. made up for no crossover I suppose.

Pistol too.

You had NBA guys that could crossover back in the 60s and early 70s, but you had to go to the schoolyards to see it. It was funny to see the first few games of a season sometimes because all those guys had been playing "illegal" ball and had to get back to playing by the rules.

Used to be if your hand was anywhere on the side of the ball, that was a whistle... period. Double dribble has also largely disappeared, I see it two or three times almost every game..... and everybody jokes about the pathetic job the referees do on travel.

A lot of guys will say it was Magic Johnson who finally killed the skills rules in the NBA, which was pretty true. But really it was just as much because those particular offenses were gauged differently by the ABA refs and when the leagues merged, they wrestled with rules for 4 or 5 years until they got a balance.

But it makes me laugh when I hear guys say 60s players couldn't even dribble. pathetic lack of knowledge of the game really

Walt Frazier, Don Ohl, Dave DeBusschere, Oscar.... couldn't dribble...... makes my head hurt

[Kblaze8855]

Well yea handles have always been pretty good on high levels it just isnt shown inflashy ways. They pretected the ball with their body and quick dribbles instead of just...holding the ball in the palm of their hand to run by a guy. You look at the Globetrotters in the 50s....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Y1y6QOE6M


Even they didnt carry. just dribble so fast they could hold off 2-3 defenders for minutes at a time. yes it was partly just a showcase but its not like the defenders were not trying to get the ball. They just wouldnt really trap which would be the obvious way to make a guy pick up his dribble. It was s how. But you cant deny that they did have insane handles. And they were a legit good team that beat the Lakers(not every time...but they beat them now and then).


And thats the 50s. And I doubt they had just way better handles than nba players they just chose to show them off for the crowd. Ive seen Bob Cousy chased around by like 10 playground kids on a news special in the early 50s doing half the shit the globetrotters were.

[JMT]

Agreed. Every time I hear young posters talk about old guys that couldn't go to their left (or off hand ), I wonder if they realize that you actually had to dribble the ball then, not put it on your hip/in the crook of your arm and run.

[G-train]

Iverson is to carrying what Jordan was to travelling.
So now guys can carry and travel, whilst not being touched on the drive.
Hello 20ppg.

Most NBA players travel before they start their carry toward the basket without contact.

[OldSchoolBBall]

As an older guy (33, soon to be 34) who still balls with guys from age 20-27 regularly, the carrying is out of control, especially among those under 25.

It doesn't bother me too much on crossovers and stuff, because I have very good lateral quicks, and I can get my hand on a ton of balls. I also use my footwork to dictate the player's movements. So for instance, if he's setting up a killer crossover with the ball in his right hand, I'll immediately stab at the ball with my left hand while closing the distance some and changing my stance to open up to the left (while under control so he can't just cross quickly and blow by me to the left). Fortunately I'm quick enough that most guys can't get by me with straight speed (even now, but especially when I was younger) - they would need to get me off balance somehow.

Know what my pet peeve is, though? Not the crossover or any other "advanced" dribble/carry. It's the fake shot on the dribble. When they lull you around a bit, crossing back and forth, trying to get by you and can't, and then they do the carry where they put their hand virtually underneath the ball while bringing their guard hand within an inch or so of the ball, as if they're gonna pull up for the shot. This move gets me more than anything else. Not nearly every time or anything, but I'll come up on my heels and out of my stance a bit when they do this in anticipation of the shot to challenge it, and then they'll cross over and get a step on me. Sucks because this (especially 6-10 years ago) is really the only way for a guy with non-elite (D1/CBA/Euroleague or better) quickness to get by me.

I was a sick defender in my younger days (not bragging), but this particular move always irked the shit out of me because it's a blatant violation, but dudes acted like they accomplished something when they couldn't get by me in iso for like 15 seconds despite hitting me with their best moves and me poking the ball away a time or two, and then they pull this, I come up on my heels and raise my hand to challenge a bit, and they go by me. Yeah...you're not really as good or as fast as you think, kid.

Yes, I'm bitter that I'm not 20 anymore. :D :oldlol: But yeah, the culture of extreme carrying sucks. Evolution and all, but it reminds me of why my dad (a PG for LIU back in the day; made it to the NIT championship game and had offers to play pro overseas) to this day goes INSANE when he watches college or NBA games - he constantly calls out the carrying. He always goes "I can't imagine what we'd have been able to do if we were allowed to carry and travel like these guys today." I believe him too, because even when I played him in his late 40's (I was early 20's) he was a terror despite not having touched a ball for like 25 years.

That's why I don't really believe that guys have gotten appreciably faster over the years. You give the guys from the 60's/70's today's sneakers and court and allow them to carry and travel like today and they'll move a ton faster too.

[cuad]

I agree with OP... i'm so annoyed with watching players run around like running backs across the court. It's part of the reason I feel like short shorts era basketball was better.

[ILLsmak]

As an older guy (33, soon to be 34) who still balls with guys from age 20-27 regularly, the carrying is out of control, especially among those under 25.

It doesn't bother me too much on crossovers and stuff, because I have very good lateral quicks, and I can get my hand on a ton of balls. I also use my footwork to dictate the player's movements. So for instance, if he's setting up a killer crossover with the ball in his right hand, I'll immediately stab at the ball with my left hand while closing the distance some and changing my stance to open up to the left (while under control so he can't just cross quickly and blow by me to the left). Fortunately I'm quick enough that most guys can't get by me with straight speed (even now, but especially when I was younger) - they would need to get me off balance somehow.

Know what my pet peeve is, though? Not the crossover or any other "advanced" dribble/carry. It's the fake shot on the dribble. When they lull you around a bit, crossing back and forth, trying to get by you and can't, and then they do the carry where they put their hand virtually underneath the ball while bringing their guard hand within an inch or so of the ball, as if they're gonna pull up for the shot. This move gets me more than anything else. Not nearly every time or anything, but I'll come up on my heels and out of my stance a bit when they do this in anticipation of the shot to challenge it, and then they'll cross over and get a step on me. Sucks because this (especially 6-10 years ago) is really the only way for a guy with non-elite (D1/CBA/Euroleague or better) quickness to get by me.

I was a sick defender in my younger days (not bragging), but this particular move always irked the shit out of me because it's a blatant violation, but dudes acted like they accomplished something when they couldn't get by me in iso for like 15 seconds despite hitting me with their best moves and me poking the ball away a time or two, and then they pull this, I come up on my heels and raise my hand to challenge a bit, and they go by me. Yeah...you're not really as good or as fast as you think, kid.

Yes, I'm bitter that I'm not 20 anymore. :D :oldlol: But yeah, the culture of extreme carrying sucks. Evolution and all, but it reminds me of why my dad (a PG for LIU back in the day; made it to the NIT championship game and had offers to play pro overseas) to this day goes INSANE when he watches college or NBA games - he constantly calls out the carrying. He always goes "I can't imagine what we'd have been able to do if we were allowed to carry and travel like these guys today." I believe him too, because even when I played him in his late 40's (I was early 20's) he was a terror despite not having touched a ball for like 25 years.

That's why I don't really believe that guys have gotten appreciably faster over the years. You give the guys from the 60's/70's today's sneakers and court and allow them to carry and travel like today and they'll move a ton faster too.

Haha, for me if someone was trying to get by me for 15 seconds I'd let them take the shot over me. No way I'd give up a lay up after working that hard.

But yeah, that last part is interesting. Some players just amaze me with their end to end speed though. And they aren't carrying going north south (per se.) I mean, people have gotten faster in everything, a least a little. That has to do with diet and probably more PEDs/training earlier. I also am of the opinion that the reason why our players are shorter these days (and they are, oddly) is because of training too early because people are grooming them. They don't say "just grow, then we'll shape you." People are trying to hit weights and take supplements at a young age. And that is brutal to growth, I think. That's why we've got so few 7 footers. The argument could even be made that guys like Wall, Rose, Westbrook... are natural 2s that just got the ball in their hands because they could push it and never got moved to their proper position because they were undersized.

-Smak

[OldSchoolBBall]

Haha, for me if someone was trying to get by me for 15 seconds I'd let them take the shot over me. No way I'd give up a lay up after working that hard.

15 seconds was an exaggeration, but guys will sometimes try to own you in an iso for like 10-12 seconds or so (in streetball that is, not in leagues as much).


But yeah, that last part is interesting. Some players just amaze me with their end to end speed though. And they aren't carrying going north south (per se.) I mean, people have gotten faster in everything, a least a little.

I don't disagree that people have probably gotten a little faster on average (even among top end athletes), but the difference isn't nearly as large as what it appears to be simply by watching a game from 1968 and one from 2012 is all I'm saying. Not nearly that big.

And I do disagree with you that these lightning bugs like Rondo, Parker, Rose etc. aren't carrying when they blaze up the court on a breakaway, because as compared to the rules of the 60's they are. My father said that they were always trained to keep their hand on top of the ball at all times, and you can see that in the old games. Try running full speed while dribbling as you do today. Now try to do the same thing while patting the ball ONLY on the top of the ball (which makes it harder to push it out ahead of you to gain speed on your strides) and I guarantee you that you're significantly slower. Believe me - I've tried it, and everyone who I've had try it has experienced the same thing.

[ILLsmak]

I agree but carrying or not, dribbling the ball at full speed and keeping control over it... is ridiculous.

I'd say you can tell someone's handles by how many times the ball hits the floor when they are on the break.

The people who have strength and less show on the break have handles. Look at Aaron Craft on OSU, that kid has amazing handles. People are caught up in saucy moves but I look at the subtle fluctuations of the ball (if its always under control) and how small of a "box" they are able to keep it in.

Deron Williams also has sick handles. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM53-Y5Kybc&feature=related

You can say at 11-12 seconds he carried because of how he cuffed the ball, but I think that's good shit because he was already past him.

I think carrying is horrible, but I'd feel like a hater (and I'm 28) to call someone out for a play like that. U CARRIED. It's like no that was nice. But if someone got by me purely using that move I'd at least comment like yea too bad you carried.

-Smak

[Teanett]

http://cdn.cosbysweaters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/allen6.jpg
what the f is old hater talking about?

[Myth]

Who else remembers when you couldnt carry to get by your man?

Im not just talking about the NBA. Its that way there...but just...playing ball. Remember playing before the mid 90s when people started trying to do crossovers and hesitations every time they got in a one on one situation?

Playing ball with kids(I consider kids people under like 20 for this discussion though not in everyday life) its just isolation after isolation people trying to rock you to sleep and hit you with a crossover.

Now...I dont mind really. Its not just...less fun. But watching a few old videos the difference really stood out. A guy like Isiah...or Tiny Archibald. I'll go with tiny for now. I watched a video on Danny Ainge saying he couldnt keep him in front of him in practice and that was Tiny on his last legs.

You watch and they have to dribble low...quickly...let them change direction so fast they would just zip around.

But guys like Jordan came along and would kinda get low and use the insane first step to just explode past you while just barely staying on the side of the ball or getting under it a little.

And it evolved as things do. and its really the main difference between back i nthe day handles and today. its not like people who play ball 8 hours a day dont learn to protect it and get around. They arent less skilled with the ball id say. But half the "moves" people do now are based on either a flat out carry or getting close.

My favorite player right now...Derrick Rose. he probably does what used to be called a carry....25 times a game. Literally. Ive been called for a carry for doing less than he does standing still dribbling at times. Jason Kidd used o carry the whole way up court. As did Grant Hill on the Pistons. People stopped dribbling low to protect it and started dribbling really high but getting under the ball a bit so they could just explode past people trying to reach if they had to.

Rose...Wade. Or here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TAwv7CIlqQ


Rondo. They are too athletic to stop when they can just get under it and push off to blow by. Plenty of guys who straight destroy guys one on one have crazy loose handles that just beg for you to reach but they then just carry the ball and....run by you. Then dribble.

Its exciting and all. I dont exactly want to see 5 carries called a game.

But I do wonder what someone like Isiah could do if he didnt need to dribble it 18 times in 12 seconds to confuse you and could just lean one way carry the other and use his quickness.

What made me notice the difference wasnt playing some kids as you might expect. But playing an old guy. Idont even know his name but he was a D1 player back in the day. Hes probably around 50. hes related to my neighbors I play ball with now and then.

He shows up and im telling you..old man is a beast. he doesnt just score a lot but you can tell in his prime he would be nasty. Beautiful form on his shot. you can tell hes taken a lot of free throws too. same routine every time. He doesnt miss. Period. And its frustrating to guard him because he dribbles damn near on the ground. Its a hassle. you have to pull some Jordan hanes commercial white guy "I can get so low in these...I bet I could take you in these...I bet I can take you" shit to even bother him.

He cant WAIT to call a carry. But hes pretty much always right. People do carry...we just pretend the rule doesnt exist anymore.

At this point there is nothing to be done about it. And you cant blame anyone for abusing it when we as fans dont care and the refs wont call it.

But it just makes me wonder how much more effective some of the old guys could be if they could do it at the rate players can now.

Any of the(I suspect...few) regular ball players here call guys out when they carry during games and if so...what is the reaction you get?

Is it as negative as I assume?

You are pretty much considered a douche if you even try to call it arent you?

:applause:

Sometimes I think I was held back in my basketball development because I was taught to play the game the right way and I refuse to practice things that are illegal yet not called.

[Teanett]

what bothers me is the bunny hop and being called for travelling when you do a pivot step.

[Smoke117]

I suppose if it isnt called it isnt a problem. I wonder how AI felt when the league decided all of a sudden that his crossover was a carry but nobody elses was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgMbhTj8HcU

That wouldnt be called on anyone else. Lots of times in the late 90s he got called for shit that guys like Grant Hill could do all day.

AI's crossover was the most blatant carry over of anyone ever. It was impossible not to notice it because he held it for so long before he made his move. It was so blatant they had to do something about it.

[G-train]

End to end speed thing is interesting.
Watch some of the speed in this video from 1977:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vTGoG53bF4&feature=plcp&context=C32e9647UDOEgsToPDskKt8MaLXJPCJ31HiBPxzHvk

[Jasper]

I stated this years ago on ISH.
Back when I played in high school 70's , playground ball , and even in league 80's ,,, you walked with each step with a bounce of the ball.
IN SCHOOL ref's called you immediately if it was 2 steps and sometimes 1 1/2.
The game evolved for flow , continuation , but the league has exploited the step dribble , 2 1/2 step contination as well as the hop step.

Some of this is all good , because of the athletic genius , but I was called carrying the ball , if my hand went near the outside of the ball instead of on top of the ball. (Side or under = carry)

Allen Iverson perfected it , and was never called.

[PTB Fan]

Nice point.

Although the majority of the players carry the ball more than they should, there are some who don't yet handle the ball a lot like D-Will, Paul and quite few of them.

[xcesswee]

"Carrying" or fancy dribbling is less effective than getting low to the ground and keeping your dribble low. When bend your knees and keep the ball low very low, you can maneuver and shift in different directions more effectively than if you were keeping your dribble high and just doing iso crossovers all day. Plus when you are low the ground it's harder for the opponent to body/handcheck you to prevent you from driving. I rather be guarding a guy trying to do crossovers all day than one who drives hard and low.

[Stuckey]

i've noticed wade kobe rose not get called for carries for a long time now

glad we all notice the same things

and the semi carry by rocking the ball on the side with a few fingers almost under it also bothers me

[305Baller]

complaining, old hater.


Chamberlain would heavy-beast™.

[Darius]

As an older guy (33, soon to be 34) who still balls with guys from age 20-27 regularly, the carrying is out of control, especially among those under 25.

It doesn't bother me too much on crossovers and stuff, because I have very good lateral quicks, and I can get my hand on a ton of balls. I also use my footwork to dictate the player's movements. So for instance, if he's setting up a killer crossover with the ball in his right hand, I'll immediately stab at the ball with my left hand while closing the distance some and changing my stance to open up to the left (while under control so he can't just cross quickly and blow by me to the left). Fortunately I'm quick enough that most guys can't get by me with straight speed (even now, but especially when I was younger) - they would need to get me off balance somehow.

Know what my pet peeve is, though? Not the crossover or any other "advanced" dribble/carry. It's the fake shot on the dribble. When they lull you around a bit, crossing back and forth, trying to get by you and can't, and then they do the carry where they put their hand virtually underneath the ball while bringing their guard hand within an inch or so of the ball, as if they're gonna pull up for the shot. This move gets me more than anything else. Not nearly every time or anything, but I'll come up on my heels and out of my stance a bit when they do this in anticipation of the shot to challenge it, and then they'll cross over and get a step on me. Sucks because this (especially 6-10 years ago) is really the only way for a guy with non-elite (D1/CBA/Euroleague or better) quickness to get by me.

I was a sick defender in my younger days (not bragging), but this particular move always irked the shit out of me because it's a blatant violation, but dudes acted like they accomplished something when they couldn't get by me in iso for like 15 seconds despite hitting me with their best moves and me poking the ball away a time or two, and then they pull this, I come up on my heels and raise my hand to challenge a bit, and they go by me. Yeah...you're not really as good or as fast as you think, kid.

Yes, I'm bitter that I'm not 20 anymore. :D :oldlol: But yeah, the culture of extreme carrying sucks. Evolution and all, but it reminds me of why my dad (a PG for LIU back in the day; made it to the NIT championship game and had offers to play pro overseas) to this day goes INSANE when he watches college or NBA games - he constantly calls out the carrying. He always goes "I can't imagine what we'd have been able to do if we were allowed to carry and travel like these guys today." I believe him too, because even when I played him in his late 40's (I was early 20's) he was a terror despite not having touched a ball for like 25 years.

That's why I don't really believe that guys have gotten appreciably faster over the years. You give the guys from the 60's/70's today's sneakers and court and allow them to carry and travel like today and they'll move a ton faster too.

AKA the Carmelo Anthony move.

SRS, would this guy even be a threat without that move?

[BlueandGold]

Uh I thought that was even less enforced during the 90s and early 00s. Hell the NBA created the no-carry "Iverson rule" that disallowed the "iverson crossover"

here is reference to the rule

http://www.basketballforum.com/philadelphia-76ers/209711-allen-iverson-rule.html

[Dizzle-2k7]

I have no problem with carrying. The game has evolved on both sides of the floor. .carrying is not an issue.

TRAVELING IS A PROBLEM. Im tired of watching kobe, lebron, wade constantly travel when they pivot. They think theyre so good with the ball well Id be good too if I could take steps before dribbling. :no:

[RaininTwos]

AI's crossover was the most blatant carry over of anyone ever. It was impossible not to notice it because he held it for so long before he made his move. It was so blatant they had to do something about it.
Guess you haven't seen Kobe's old crossover.

[Kblaze8855]

AI's crossover was the most blatant carry over of anyone ever. It was impossible not to notice it because he held it for so long before he made his move. It was so blatant they had to do something about it.

The most blatant carry is Jason Kidd slowly walking up the court trying to take the last shot. he might carry on 3 of every 4 dribbles.

[Kblaze8855]

Tyreke Evans carried 5 times in two posessions but both Westbrook and durant did on the other end so....**** it. I just wish they would take the rule out if its ignored.

[Asukal]

I do agree with you that carrying takes away from the game, I also don't have a problem with it at the moment. Its just a matter of how the game is called now compared to then, viewers love to see fancy stuff that's probably why things like these are being allowed now. :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

Some good hating by Tim Hardaway:


The crossover dribble, a revelation in Hardaway's day, is pretty standard stuff now. Like the jump shot and the chest pass. Any point guard today who can't change directions on a dime ain't worth a dime. The crossover is being taught to kids in camp just starting out. It's a symbol of the modern era of basketball, sometimes defiantly so, considering many of Hardaway's imitators are merely palming the ball and getting away with it.

No question, Hardaway is one of a handful of pioneers who changed the game forever, and it tickles him, even now, to be remembered in those terms.


"That's great," he said. "The people who run the NBA draft combine even have a crossover drill for the prospects. It makes me laugh. I was just a college player looking to try something new, and came up with this. And now they're having all these college players prove they can do it."

That dribble has frozen more human beings than a Slurpee. He used the dribble to last 15 ankle-breaking years in the NBA, with great success in Golden State and Miami, and left a legacy that you can see on any court, on any level. Go left. Then right. Or vice versa. There are several variations now; the "killer" crossover between the legs (Hardaway's specialty), a "normal" crossover, a "half" crossover (fake) and so on. It sounds so simple, but it took many hours in the laboratory for Hardaway to develop.

He recalls watching Pearl Washington, one of New York's many asphalt kings, play for Syracuse against Georgetown. One night, Pearl put a spin move, which was typical for him.

"He faked like he was going left," Hardaway said. "It wasn't a crossover. He didn't put it between his legs, but rolled the ball in front of him.

"The very next day, I tried to do it in the gym but couldn't pull it off. Then I developed my own type of dribble, which became the crossover. I went between my legs, keeping the ball in front of me, going left to right, then went to the hole. I thought, 'Maybe I can do this.' There was nobody in the gym but me."

Hardaway estimates he spent about a week tweaking and perfecting the dribble, then debuted it in practice at Texas El-Paso. It received a rousing two-dribbles-up approval from his teammates. Then he made it part of his ensemble, and fairly soon, the dribble was nicknamed "the UTEP two-step."

The crossover didn't get its due or its official label until Hardaway arrived with the Warriors and became part of the circus act known as Run-TMC (Tim, Mitch as in Richmond, Chris as in Mullin). Pretty soon, Hardaway's dribble put slo-mo cameras on alert everywhere as TV commentators tried to describe it and players everywhere tried to steal it.

Here's the problem, though: A good many players have changed the crossover into the carryover. What's worse, with very few exceptions, they're being allowed to blatantly palm the ball by referees on every level, which only encourages more illegal dribbles.

Even the inventor is disturbed by it.

"I never carried the ball," Hardaway said. "My hands stayed on top of the ball. I was never like Allen Iverson or some of the guys today who drag the ball and carry the ball in order to get around the defense."

The NBA made a half-hearted crackdown attempt several years ago, aimed specifically at Iverson. But the whistles stopped blowing a few months later, and it was back to normal. The big problem for the NBA is that the toothpaste is already out of the tube. Players are palming on the lower levels and once they reach the NBA, it's old habit. Plus, the league refuses to be consistent about policing illegal dribbles. When's the last time you saw someone whistled for a carry late in a game, or in the postseason?

It's as if the league just threw up its hands and said the heck with it.

"When And-1 basketball came into play, a lot of people tried to dribble like those streetball players," Hardaway said. "And that's when basketball went south. All of a sudden, guys stopped working on their basic ballhandling skills and started doing things incorrectly. That took away from the game. It took a lot of good, proper basketball out of the game. But if the referees don't call it, what can you do? You know it's a carry. They know it's a carry."

Hardaway sighs.

"I'm not mad or upset, but I'm also not happy with how it's evolved. That's not the way I dribbled the ball. I had a unique style. I got past my man with a nice move, made him look like he didn't know how to play defense."

He is touched by players who approach and thank him for changing the game and adding an exciting wrinkle. Still, when you ask Hardaway which player comes closest to him in pulling off the perfect crossover, he's pretty direct about it.

"Nobody."

He laughs.

"I'm teaching my son," he said. "He doesn't have it down pat yet. Maybe some day. A lot of people copy it but don't always feel comfortable doing it."

[9erempiree]

My ass.

Hardaway dribble like modern players. His hands are not on top of the ball. He does it like any modern player.

http://thatsenuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Tim-Hardaway-Jr-Tim-Hardaway-e1362179397309.jpg
http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/game-on/2011/02/03/timbohardawax-large.jpg

[tikay0]

My ass.

Hardaway dribble like modern players. His hands are not on top of the ball. He does it like any modern player.

http://thatsenuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Tim-Hardaway-Jr-Tim-Hardaway-e1362179397309.jpg
http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/game-on/2011/02/03/timbohardawax-large.jpg

This. Hardaway carried all the time.

Kblaze doesn't get the fact that it's not necessarily carrying that is the problem, it's the intent in which it's used.

Ever player will carry the ball once in awhile in games, when dribbling or waiting for a play to break down. Refs don't call it, because of the minuteness of that situation.

A guy like AI would use it, but abuse it.

[9erempiree]

You have to remember Kblaze makes a post while drunk. This could be another episode and his threads are hard to read too.

[tikay0]

You have to remember Kblaze makes a post while drunk. This could be another episode and his threads are hard to read too.

:oldlol:

[nathanjizzle]

i hate when idiots in pickup games call travel when they dont know what they are talking about. just because you dont have any rhythm or handles mean i have to play by your standards of dribbling?

basketball has evolved because players are getting better. basketball is still a young sport and still evolving, just because we dont play like it was 20 years ago doesnt mean we are doing it wrong.

remember when in football it was illegal to throw a pass? i guess we are doing it wrong now also.

[red1]

Everyone carries nowadays. If you can't beat them, join them. I carry on the fastbreak all the time now

[LBJMVP]

rondo just took two dribbles from beyond halfcourt and made a layup... how is that not a travel.

[9erempiree]

Everyone carries nowadays. If you can't beat them, join them. I carry on the fastbreak all the time now

Especially on the break when the damn ball is spinning in your palms.

[Kblaze8855]

ust because you dont have any rhythm or handles mean i have to play by your standards of dribbling?

You think thats whats going on during the olympics when NBa players are called for 6 travels a game?

Or are refs just enforcing the rules?


basketball has evolved because players are getting better. basketball is still a young sport and still evolving, just because we dont play like it was 20 years ago doesnt mean we are doing it wrong.

Long as its against the rules...how is it right?

Why have rules we pretend dont exist? Just get rid of them and be done with it.

If you can just run with the ball.....why be good at ball handling?

[eliteballer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1780000/images/_1780755_jordan.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1201/kobe.bryant.michael.jordan/images/DRIBBLE.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m404ssyseD1qemgsko1_500.jpg

http://hoopshabit.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Jordan_dribbling_cr_Jason_H_smith.jpg

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/83089940-basketball-nba-finals-chicago-bulls-michael-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QUu2tEEY02drOR%2fjnco7RJJJy4 B6Lw7L%2biRe%2bt2hxiDrSPXxSV0G4n5hckaikYuoC0WmZwKz zSFM1ML%2bq8j4lWU%3d

http://img01.lavanguardia.com/2013/04/18/Michael-Jordan-durante-la-fina_54372558340_51351706917_600_226.jpg

[9erempiree]

You think thats whats going on during the olympics when NBa players are called for 6 travels a game?

Or are refs just enforcing the rules?



Long as its against the rules...how is it right?

Why have rules we pretend dont exist? Just get rid of them and be done with it.

If you can just run with the ball.....why be good at ball handling?

You are very irrational.

They don't get called 6 times in a game.:facepalm

[Djarum]

Can anyone give me the exact definition of a carry? I've been playing pickup ball for 2 years now and I don't want to establish incorrect fundamentals. I'd rather play hard by the rules and lose than manipulate them and win.

[ProfessorMurder]

If you can just run with the ball.....why be good at ball handling?

Adrian Peterson GOAT NBA ballhandler if he chose basketball.

[Kblaze8855]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1780000/images/_1780755_jordan.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1201/kobe.bryant.michael.jordan/images/DRIBBLE.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m404ssyseD1qemgsko1_500.jpg

http://hoopshabit.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Jordan_dribbling_cr_Jason_H_smith.jpg

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/83089940-basketball-nba-finals-chicago-bulls-michael-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QUu2tEEY02drOR%2fjnco7RJJJy4 B6Lw7L%2biRe%2bt2hxiDrSPXxSV0G4n5hckaikYuoC0WmZwKz zSFM1ML%2bq8j4lWU%3d

http://img01.lavanguardia.com/2013/04/18/Michael-Jordan-durante-la-fina_54372558340_51351706917_600_226.jpg


I suppose you may have missed:



You watch and they have to dribble low...quickly...let them change direction so fast they would just zip around.

But guys like Jordan came along and would kinda get low and use the insane first step to just explode past you while just barely staying on the side of the ball or getting under it a little.

And it evolved as things do.

[Djarum]

Can anyone give me the exact definition of a carry? I've been playing pickup ball for 2 years now and I don't want to establish incorrect fundamentals. I'd rather play hard by the rules and lose than manipulate them and win.


Bump! Is a carry even possible to define in today's game anymore?

[eliteballer]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThGU77f7Qot3kwHUaAyOS5XrsY9hdHo JNC9ewWTxUs1bo3_QImXA

http://www.chicitysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Jordan-Celtics-300x204.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m29kraYR7A1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg

That's not "barely" getting on the side of the ball.

[tpols]

I don't think you can really have as quick a first step or drive to the hole without cradling the ball with your hand on its side or underneath.

You watch Elgin Baylor or Oscar or west play and they don't attack the rim nearly as hard but use low fast dribbles and their bodies to shield defenders and manuever around for layups and midrange jumpshot.
.
It's just easier to slash through traffic and build a nice running start with the ball being palmed out to the side. Just evolution of the game. Good ball handler dribble both over the top and under mix it up.

[IGOTGAME]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThGU77f7Qot3kwHUaAyOS5XrsY9hdHo JNC9ewWTxUs1bo3_QImXA

http://www.chicitysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Jordan-Celtics-300x204.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m29kraYR7A1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg

That's not "barely" getting on the side of the ball.
It really is...you are sounding like a hater

[9erempiree]

OP regrets bumping this thread.

[eliteballer]

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/83089940-basketball-nba-finals-chicago-bulls-michael-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QUu2tEEY02drOR%2fjnco7RJJJy4 B6Lw7L%2biRe%2bt2hxiDrSPXxSV0G4n5hckaikYuoC0WmZwKz zSFM1ML%2bq8j4lWU%3d

[eliteballer]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tHVYjnKbU8M/Td46E0om1PI/AAAAAAAAALM/_zWcKivTZVw/s320/iverson-and-jordan_display_image.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/TommyDekker/Michael%20Jordan/9697DribbleBlack.jpg

[IGOTGAME]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tHVYjnKbU8M/Td46E0om1PI/AAAAAAAAALM/_zWcKivTZVw/s320/iverson-and-jordan_display_image.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/TommyDekker/Michael%20Jordan/9697DribbleBlack.jpg
His hand is on top of the ball. If anything it would be a discontinued dribble, which is impossible to call from a still shot.

[eliteballer]

Jordan used to palm all the time....people complained. I know you remember that kblaze.

The thing is he got away with it because his hands were massive. Same thing with Wade really.

[9erempiree]

Thread title is false.

He's crying.

The game has been like his for the longest time. Don't know why OP just found out about it.

It's an old ass thread too. It took him this long to figure it out and bump it? It's been a year and he still bitchin.:facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

The game has been slowly going to what it is now since the early 90s. But as Tim said it made more progress largely due to shit like And 1. Not that you would remember much of the Hot sauce impact on teens considering you were 6 when it blew up.

[9erempiree]

Sorry but I am a basketball purist and I never watched And 1. I know what it is but never watched it.

[monkeypox]

They had to do it to protect the flashy young guards that were filling the seats. It's a shame but they had to do what they had t do for ratings.

[Horde of Temujin]

One time at the park, guy on the opposing team called me for carrying twice within the first 5 possessions. My team responded by calling his teammates for carrying as well on almost every possession. It got tense and then we all decided that the first guy was a prick and we would abstain from calling anymore nonsense.

I imagine the League came to the same conclusion.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

One time at the park, guy on the opposing team called me for carrying twice within the first 5 possessions. My team responded by calling his teammates for carrying as well on almost every possession. It got tense and then we all decided that the first guy was a prick and we would abstain from calling anymore nonsense.

I imagine the League came to the same conclusion.
:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Watching the Rockets/Blazers the announcers mentioned that Kevin Martin traveled coming out of the triple threat every time. And now its being called. We all know it wont be for the entire season...but I would like to see how players evolve if it were. The footwork is worse than the ball handling at times. Though I think I counted 4 carries on Felton on one possession last week. Rose probably averages 8-10 a game.

They aren't even pretending they want to call those.