Am I nuts for saying Kyrie Irving is a better player than Rajon Rondo at this point?

[StateOfMind12]

Would I be crazy if I were to say Kyrie Irving right now is currently better than Rajon Rondo right now? For starters, I thought that Irving was much more deserving to go to the all-star game than Rondo this season. I knew Irving would miss it though since it's nearly impossible for rookies to get in and I knew Rondo would miss it just because of his injuries and because he hasn't been that good this season.

Anyways, thoughts on this comparison?

[Pushxx]

Rondo has been struggling since returning to the line-up. His aggressiveness is 50/50, and that's the only thing that makes him elite.

He will round into shape.

As far as Kyrie Irving goes, he has as much upside as any guard in the NBA right now. His defense and ability to run a team that isn't sub-.500 is still a question mark, of course.

[chazzy]

Rondo can run an offense better and is a much better defender. Kyrie has a great scoring skillset for a rookie though, been really impressed.

[StroShow4]

Irving certainly would've helped the Celtics down the stretch of tonight's game more than Rondo did. Just saying.

[StateOfMind12]

Rondo has been struggling since returning to the line-up. His aggressiveness is 50/50, and that's the only thing that makes him elite.

He will round into shape.

As far as Kyrie Irving goes, he has as much upside as any guard in the NBA right now. His defense and ability to run a team that isn't sub-.500 is still a question mark, of course.
Honestly in my opinion Rondo has never been the same after the '09-'10 season. I remember Rondo was flat out beasting in the 2010 playoffs but he has never played close to that level since. I don't think Rondo is an effective defender anymore now a days either. I don't think he was a good defender last season and I don't think he is a good defender this season either at all. I would take '09-'10 and even '08-'09 Rondo over current Irving but I have a hard time taking current Rondo over current Irving though.

[Scoooter]

Rondo really needs to learn to shoot. It's ridiculous the room they give him. Defenses treat him like a center out beyond the freethrow line.

[Mach_3]

Honestly in my opinion Rondo has never been the same after the '09-'10 season. I remember Rondo was flat out beasting in the 2010 playoffs but he has never played close to that level since. I don't think Rondo is an effective defender anymore now a days either. I don't think he was a good defender last season and I don't think he is a good defender this season either at all. I would take '09-'10 and even '08-'09 Rondo over current Irving but I have a hard time taking current Rondo over current Irving though.


Yea cause he wasn't dropping 30 point games and 20 assist games on the Knicks in the playoffs last year right?

[StateOfMind12]

Yea cause he wasn't dropping 30 point games and 20 assist games on the Knicks in the playoffs last year right?
You provide no point.

[imdaman99]

Yea cause he wasn't dropping 30 point games and 20 assist games on the Knicks in the playoffs last year right?
im sure you would do the same with toney douglas covering you

now lets see rondo try that on the dragon :bowdown:

[Mach_3]

You provide no point.

are you daft? You said something factually incorrect and i proved you wrong period.

[StateOfMind12]

are you daft? You said something factually incorrect and i proved you wrong period.
Dropping 30 and dishing 20 dimes is not beasting against the D'Antoni's Knicks. It's simply just playing average. Now if he did that against the Heat last season in the post-season then I would be impressed and I would call that beasting.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

are you daft? You said something factually incorrect and i proved you wrong period.

Don't mind him, he's a pedo clown. Best to think of a failed standup act when reading his posts.

[Mach_3]

Don't mind him, he's a pedo clown.

Yea i shouldn't have even responded to this troll :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

]Dropping 30 and dishing 20 dimes is not beasting [/B]against the D'Antoni's Knicks. It's simply just playing average. Now if he did that against the Heat last season in the post-season then I would be impressed and I would call that beasting.


:roll:

[StateOfMind12]

:roll:
Well I was being facetious but seriously, players look forward to playing against D'Antoni's Knicks and teams because they know they can pad their stats against them. His teams never have and never will play defense and they certainly as heck didn't play defense last season especially with their weak personnel. They improved defensively this season because of the addition of Tyson Chandler.

[GOBB]

So Kyrie Irving is a top 5 PG right now? That was quick.

[StateOfMind12]

So Kyrie Irving is a top 5 PG right now? That was quick.
Not necessarily.

Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Russell Westbrook

are the top 5 still and have been since last season. Those five are still better than Irving and Rondo. Irving is getting up there though.

[RazorBaLade]

i dont know why its so difficult for rondo to learn how to shoot.. I'd take him over kyrie, he does everything else better, but I mean damn this guy cannot shoot.

[PP34Deuce]

A 65 percent healthy Rondo is not a benefit nor a liability. he's just there. The offense doesn't commit as many turnovers, but when he's not right, he's not a scoring threat because he won't go to the hole.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

I agree, Kyrie Irving is better than Rondo. When Boston was an elite team Rondo has been probably the most overrated player in the league by fans and analyst. A point guard that cannot shoot is a huge liability IMO and his passing/playmaking/abilitiy to get to the hoop do not nearly make up for it. Irving does it all in a comparable level, but can shoot. And this guy is a rookie too.

There's a reason we constantly see Ainge throwing Rondo around in possible trade scenarios. He knows he's not nearly as good as percieved and although I love his defense the guys shot is just too ****ing pathetic at the position. I don't think you can win a title with Rondo as your main weapon, and he will never be a good complimentary player either since he can't shoot. Well unless KG/Ray/Pierce go into a time machine and go back into 2008 mode, but even then Pierce and Allen were both elite shooters so it was alright.

[theaussieguy]

i dont know why its so difficult for rondo to learn how to shoot.. I'd take him over kyrie, he does everything else better, but I mean damn this guy cannot shoot.

ive said it once and ill say it again....you try shooting when u have as many physical advantages (disadvantages?) as Rondo. Hands the size of Yao-Ming and a 6'10" wingspan. Simply put, he has more margin for error just because of his vast dimensions for his height. Oneday he will be knocking down the shots using a wrist dominated motion, the next day he will take luxury in finding his shots using the elbow and less of the wrist.

I can see so easily why its hard for Rondo, how do you find the middle ground with so much variation. Also, Rondo is Rondo, he got where is now because the things he is good at he is pretty much the best at. Great passer, penetrator and defender and has that competitive instinct. You can see kobe respects the tiger in him. Hes got the oldschool fire.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

ive said it once and ill say it again....you try shooting when u have as many physical advantages (disadvantages?) as Rondo. Hands the size of Yao-Ming and a 6'10" wingspan. Simply put, he has more margin for error just because of his vast dimensions for his height. Oneday he will be knocking down the shots using a wrist dominated motion, the next day he will take luxury in finding his shots using the elbow and less of the wrist.

I can see so easily why its hard for Rondo, how do you find the middle ground with so much variation. Also, Rondo is Rondo, he got where is now because the things he is good at he is pretty much the best at. Great passer, penetrator and defender and has that competitive instinct. You can see kobe respects the tiger in him. Hes got the oldschool fire.

Hands the size of Yao Ming, but Yao Ming was actually a great shooter. Fail

[StateOfMind12]

Hands the size of Yao Ming, but Yao Ming was actually a great shooter. Fail
Seriously, what kind of excuse is that? Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen had huge hands as well and they were good shooters. There is no excuse for Rondo not being a good shooter. I am assuming it is his form more than anything. I think it's uncommon from NBA players to change their form especially their jump shot.

[theaussieguy]

Seriously, what kind of excuse is that? Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen had huge hands as well and they were good shooters. There is no excuse for Rondo not being a good shooter. I am assuming it is his form more than anything. I think it's uncommon from NBA players to change their form especially their jump shot.


Its not an excuse its just reality....you don't think he doesn't work at it? Give me a break.

And to the guy saying Yao Ming was a great shooter, yeah he was but he was also 7'6" and in proportion, Michael Jordan was 6'6" and more in proportion than Rondo. When rondo jumps you can see how small his body is in relation to his domineering limbs. Its very hard to become consistent when your limbs are flailing around the place, at least in Rondo's case.

You guys attribute it to the fact he is lazy and does not work at his game, i attribute it to the fact he was just not born a good shooter, he has a ceiling in that regard just like other players have ceilings in other areas of their game. Dealwithit.jpg. And thats not to say he is a terrible shooter, because a lot of games he shoots very well, its just about the consistency which is hard for him to maintain because of the variation which is inherent in the way he is built.

He has a very unique build, you have to take the good with the bad unfortunately.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

When Irving has a 28/17/13 game against a top 5 defense come back to me. Unless you're saying Rondo has declined?

[alenleomessi]

the same was said with wall last year, and tyreke the year before
it didnt really turn out very well...

[kNIOKAS]

Honestly in my opinion Rondo has never been the same after the '09-'10 season. I remember Rondo was flat out beasting in the 2010 playoffs but he has never played close to that level since. I don't think Rondo is an effective defender anymore now a days either. I don't think he was a good defender last season and I don't think he is a good defender this season either at all. I would take '09-'10 and even '08-'09 Rondo over current Irving but I have a hard time taking current Rondo over current Irving though.
He was absolutely brilliant in one game this year... But it was against Washington :facepalm

Anyway, Irving is shooting phenomenal percentage, made a poised, savvy game-winning play against the Celtics, it's all bright for him. But to say the rookie is better than a vetaran is just not right. Let him play a season first...

[roffie]

i think rondo will be fine once the big 3 retires, he has the potential to literally dominate the game.

[chips93]

ive said it once and ill say it again....you try shooting when u have as many physical advantages (disadvantages?) as Rondo. Hands the size of Yao-Ming and a 6'10" wingspan. Simply put, he has more margin for error just because of his vast dimensions for his height. Oneday he will be knocking down the shots using a wrist dominated motion, the next day he will take luxury in finding his shots using the elbow and less of the wrist.

I can see so easily why its hard for Rondo, how do you find the middle ground with so much variation. Also, Rondo is Rondo, he got where is now because the things he is good at he is pretty much the best at. Great passer, penetrator and defender and has that competitive instinct. You can see kobe respects the tiger in him. Hes got the oldschool fire.

mike beasley, john stockton, pippen, jordan, jerry sloan. all good-great shooters, all enormous hands

[chips93]

i hate to say it, but im not sure some of you understand how bad kyrie is on defense.

he has trouble staying ion front of his man, and doesnt fight very hard through picks, although his on-ball defense has improved since the start of the year, its still well-below average

and his off-ball defense is horrendous. he consistently ball-watches. every game he will give up at least 2 or 3 back door cuts, and most games, he gives up a few wide open lay-ups, just through lack of paying attention.

he needs to learn to see the man, and see the ball.

he obviously didnt play much in college, so hopefully, its just rust, but his overall defense needs a lot of work.

rose
paul
williams
nash
westbrook
parker

are all definitely better than him right now. rondo is probably better than him right now, but you can make a case for irving over rondo.

[MMM]

mike beasley, john stockton, pippen, jordan, jerry sloan. all good-great shooters, all enormous hands

It is not just enormous hands with Rondo
it is also long arms and broad shoulders
so he isn't really comparable to these other good to great shooters
Honestly it is a lot for a player to over come to have so many factors against being a natural shooter.

[chips93]

It is not just enormous hands with Rondo
it is also long arms and broad shoulders
so he isn't really comparable to these other good to great shooters
Honestly it is a lot for a player to over come to have so many factors against being a natural shooter.

personally, and i cant prove this, but i think he has a mental block, and he just doesnt have the natural touch that some people are born with to be a good shooter.

some guys are such great shooters, despite having poor work ethics, while others, like rondo, work really hard, and still cant shoot. so i do think its a genetic thing to a degree, but i think he just doesnt have the touch to be a good shooter, rather than a bad physical profile.

fwiw jamal crawford, brandon roy, dwyane wade, and gilbert arenas all have similarly long wingspans, but they are all in a different class, as shooters, than rondo.

[MMM]

personally, and i cant prove this, but i think he has a mental block, and he just doesnt have the natural touch that some people are born with to be a good shooter.

some guys are such great shooters, despite having poor work ethics, while others, like rondo, work really hard, and still cant shoot. so i do think its a genetic thing to a degree, but i think he just doesnt have the touch to be a good shooter, rather than a bad physical profile.

fwiw jamal crawford, brandon roy, dwyane wade, and gilbert arenas all have similarly long wingspans, but they are all in a different class, as shooters, than rondo.

Yea confidence/mental block has been an issue but he has been more comfortable this season in knocking down his jumper; he was actually doing a pretty good job prior the wrist injury. Finally yes there are good to great shooters who've over come large hands or long arms or broad shoulders but I don't think the list is long for players who've had to over come multiple factors against natural shooting.

[PTB Fan]

I'm a huge Kyrie fan. He's one of my favorite players, and i've been following him since his days in Puke. However, him being better than Rondo is just too much at this point.

[DukeDelonte13]

Nut nuts, but premature.

[StateOfMind12]

When Irving has a 28/17/13 game against a top 5 defense come back to me. Unless you're saying Rondo has declined?
I do think he has declined since '09-'10...


Honestly in my opinion Rondo has never been the same after the '09-'10 season. I remember Rondo was flat out beasting in the 2010 playoffs but he has never played close to that level since. I don't think Rondo is an effective defender anymore now a days either. I don't think he was a good defender last season and I don't think he is a good defender this season either at all. I would take '09-'10 and even '08-'09 Rondo over current Irving but I have a hard time taking current Rondo over current Irving though.



the same was said with wall last year, and tyreke the year before
it didnt really turn out very well...
I don't think many people said Wall was better and if they did it was premature especially when those two have the same weaknesses and strengths.

Tyreke is a SG so I don't know why he is being compared with Rondo. However, Tyreke did put up the best statistical rookie season since LeBron so you can see why people thought so highly of him.

[The_LA_Blakers]

Would I be crazy if I were to say Kyrie Irving right now is currently better than Rajon Rondo right now? For starters, I thought that Irving was much more deserving to go to the all-star game than Rondo this season. I knew Irving would miss it though since it's nearly impossible for rookies to get in and I knew Rondo would miss it just because of his injuries and because he hasn't been that good this season.

Anyways, thoughts on this comparison?



Yes.



He's having a great year, let's see how he continues to play rather than making a judgement after 20+ games.


I could say the same about Jeremy Lin right now too, but I won't.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Irving is better

[jbryan1984]

Kyrie is going to be something. I just hope he aint a flash in the pan like Brandon Jennings. People were jumping on his coat tales his first year too, especially after that game against Golden State where he scored like 50. People around here are starting to actually hope we do make the playoffs. Realistically speaking, the Cavs have a good chance of making the 7th or 8th seed in the east and realistically speaking, the Heat have a good chance of being the 1st or 2nd seed in the east. The Q would be louder than its ever been. Just think how much that place would explode just to get one win in the playoffs at the Q over Miami! But, my wishful thinking is to draft a partner in crime for Kyrie, let Tristan Thompson and Alonzo Gee continue to improve, let Andy play his crazy defense and then one day beat Miami in a series.

[GOBB]

Kyrie is going to be something. I just hope he aint a flash in the pan like Brandon Jennings. People were jumping on his coat tales his first year too, especially after that game against Golden State where he scored like 50. People around here are starting to actually hope we do make the playoffs. Realistically speaking, the Cavs have a good chance of making the 7th or 8th seed in the east and realistically speaking, the Heat have a good chance of being the 1st or 2nd seed in the east. The Q would be louder than its ever been. Just think how much that place would explode just to get one win in the playoffs at the Q over Miami! But, my wishful thinking is to draft a partner in crime for Kyrie, let Tristan Thompson and Alonzo Gee continue to improve, let Andy play his crazy defense and then one day beat Miami in a series.

Brandon Jennings is avg 19ppg 5apg. Flash in the pan? :oldlol: Good one bro.

[Whoah10115]

You're not only nuts but you're a sick man.



Come on now. Rondo was averaging 12.3APG till past the All-Star break...12.3...that's the highest since any Stockton year. And he was, by far, their best player the last year and change. His drop off after the all-star game kept him at 11.2APG for the season. And he's playing better than ever this year. His jumpshot has been solid all year. His only problem was missing 8 games.


It's bad enough that people wanna call him overrated, when so many people have the nerve to not consider him great. He's an elite player. Maybe he'll end up being nothing special once the big 3 stop, but that doesn't change how great he's been with them.



Kyrie Irving isn't in his vicinity and neither is John Wall. If they ever pass him then it's credit to them. It isn't some logical progression. And there's no argument for Westbrook over him. This guy is the Celtics best playoff player since they won their title. Westbrook has been better than him? At his best he's been better than him? Not in any way. But now Kyrie Irving?

[lakerfreak]

Not nuts, just an opinion. Kyrie is a scoring guard, which is necessary for this superstar-less cleveland cavaliers team. Rondo is playing with guys who are still very much effective scorers, so his style fits their system.

They're both very different type of PG's.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm a huge Kyrie fan. He's one of my favorite players, and i've been following him since his days in Puke. However, him being better than Rondo is just too much at this point.
I agree. I don't think it is fair for a guy who has played well for 1/3 of a season to be compared to a player who has proven year-in and year-out that he is amongst the best PGs in the league.

Obviously, if you are asking me which I would rather have on my team, I'm going with Kyrie because his ceiling is incredibly high and, even with his ridiculous efficiency thus far and relatively refined skills for a 19-year-old, he still has a lot of room to grow. Right now, he is like a stud puppy with big paws. You know the potential is there, but he needs time to grow into the league.

I've always really liked Rondo's game despite his inconsistent jumper. He controls the pace as well as any PG in the league and he is an excellent defender. Those are two areas wherein Kyrie could learn a lot from Rajon.

If people want to compare rookies with similar experience, that is one thing... To compare a guy this young with this little experience to a proven gamer like Rondo is too extreme for me.

[StateOfMind12]

It's been over a month since I made this thread. What are the thoughts on this comparison now?

My PG rankings would be something like this...

1. Derrick Rose
2. Chris Paul
3. Deron Williams
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Steve Nash
6. Tony Parker
7. Kyrie Irving
8. Rajon Rondo

[Mr. Jabbar]

hmm, yes.

[linZoMourning]

rondo is overrated and is not a good leader. he throws shit at the tv's in the locker room when hes not getting his way. rondo barely cracks the top 10

[Real Men Wear Green]

#2 in assists, averaging a double-double. Tops (by a wide margin) in the NBA in triple-doubles. Perennial All-NBA first-team defender. Rondo has one enormous flaw that can't be said of any other elite pg: due to his awful shooting, you don't hand him the ball and ask him to win the game in the clutch. But overall, the man is a three-time All-Star for a reason.

[Real Men Wear Green]

rondo is overrated and is not a good leader. he throws shit at the tv's in the locker room when hes not getting his way. rondo barely cracks the top 10
He was the best player on a Celtic team that made the Finals. I can't see him standing up and making speeches but he does alright.

[StateOfMind12]

#2 in assists, averaging a double-double. Tops (by a wide margin) in the NBA in triple-doubles. Perennial All-NBA first-team defender. Rondo has one enormous flaw that can't be said of any other elite pg: due to his awful shooting, you don't hand him the ball and ask him to win the game in the clutch. But overall, the man is a three-time All-Star for a reason.
Rondo's defense is no longer All-Defense worthy at least in my opinion. I don't think he is the same defensive player he was in 2009 and 2010 anymore but you watch Rondo more than me, would you mind informing me about Rondo and his defense these days?

[I.R.Beast]

Rondo can run an offense better and is a much better defender. Kyrie has a great scoring skillset for a rookie though, been really impressed.
Rondo's defense is so overrated...Really he hasn't been overly good since the championship season. He gambles for steals ala Chris Paul....who does Rondo lock down?...very overrated defender.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Rondo's defense is no longer All-Defense worthy at least in my opinion. I don't think he is the same defensive player he was in 2009 and 2010 anymore but you watch Rondo more than me, would you mind informing me about Rondo and his defense these days?
I don't keep a game-by-game log but I know he recently held CP3 to 3-12 and had Rivers raving over his D in the post game. He doesn't shut down everyone, no one does, but he's normally a good defender and when the games on the line and he's dialed in no pg is better.

[GOBB]

He was also obsessed with proving Yao>dwight at one point. He creates multipale ids and agrees with himself in all different threads.He is flatout creepy.

Thats RocketsGreatness?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Rondo's defense is so overrated...Really he hasn't been overly good since the championship season. He gambles for steals ala Chris Paul....who does Rondo lock down?...very overrated defender.
Ironically enough, I just answered that question. I also recall him giving Lin hell a few weeks ago.

[jdm_dc_fan]

im sure you would do the same with toney douglas covering you

now lets see rondo try that on the dragon :bowdown:

had to quote a post from feb 10th.

lol rondo's almost double triple double on lin. :oldlol:

[ImmortalNemesis]

Yes, you are nuts. Not only are you nuts, but you're a f*cking retard. You always post the stupidest shit and make the dumbest threads ever. Just leave this board already. You're annoying.

[chazzy]

Yes, you are nuts. Not only are you nuts, but you're a f*cking retard. You always post the stupidest shit and make the dumbest threads ever. Just leave this board already. You're annoying.
He's already making a great impression elsewhere (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1170722#p31046866) :lol

[bdreason]

Ranking him over Rondo would be disrespectful at this point.



But if I'm starting a franchise today? Irving is the easy pick to me.

[ImmortalNemesis]

He's already making a great impression elsewhere (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1170722#p31046866) :lol


:facepalm Now that's just sad. I thought he was some sort of troll but he isn't. He's really f*cked up in the head. He truly believe the BS he spews. Something is wrong with you RG, get help. It's been like half a decade already, let it go.

[spiegel]

Thats RocketsGreatness?
Yes, he also posts as clutchcover, idefend5 , iamrambo24 and few other ones i forgot

[spiegel]

Bash tmac to make yao look good. bash dwight to make yao look good. **** is obsessed with yao.

[bdreason]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBEolMZIeM&feature=related

[MJ(Mean John)]

Rondo is overrated tho.

Kyrie's game is realllll preeettttyy:lebron:

[PTB Fan]

I agree. I don't think it is fair for a guy who has played well for 1/3 of a season to be compared to a player who has proven year-in and year-out that he is amongst the best PGs in the league.

Obviously, if you are asking me which I would rather have on my team, I'm going with Kyrie because his ceiling is incredibly high and, even with his ridiculous efficiency thus far and relatively refined skills for a 19-year-old, he still has a lot of room to grow. Right now, he is like a stud puppy with big paws. You know the potential is there, but he needs time to grow into the league.

I've always really liked Rondo's game despite his inconsistent jumper. He controls the pace as well as any PG in the league and he is an excellent defender. Those are two areas wherein Kyrie could learn a lot from Rajon.

If people want to compare rookies with similar experience, that is one thing... To compare a guy this young with this little experience to a proven gamer like Rondo is too extreme for me.

:cheers:

[Jotaro Durant]

better than rondo top 5 pg:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TAZORAC]

Honestly in my opinion Rondo has never been the same after the '09-'10 season. I remember Rondo was flat out beasting in the 2010 playoffs but he has never played close to that level since. I don't think Rondo is an effective defender anymore now a days either. I don't think he was a good defender last season and I don't think he is a good defender this season either at all. I would take '09-'10 and even '08-'09 Rondo over current Irving but I have a hard time taking current Rondo over current Irving though.

Rondo was never a BEAST. He can't shoot for sh.it. If he could the CELTICS pick n roll would be much better

[cavsfanatic]

Yes you are nuts kind sir.

[plUto or bUst]

Let's revisit this when Kyrie leads a team deep into the playoffs. Cavs are on the rise so maybe in a couple of years...

For now, Rondo is better. When he turns it on he can be the best point guard in the league.