Why is Duncan above Kobe in the all-time list?

[iDefend5]

It's common for some reason that Duncan is above Kobe and I don't know why, so explain your cases people.

[talkingconch]

it varies in peoples all-time lists

[donald_trump]

to the casual fan hes not.

lebron james is probably in a lot of casual watchers top 5-10. its essentially all about how commercial and big the name is when it gets to mass/media consensus.

[stallionaire]

Duncan is the best to ever play the position.

When you look at the #2 spot, Kobe can never be considered that. Ever.

[Bob Cousy]

10.Oscar Robertson
9.Kobe
8.Duncan
7.Shaq
6.Bird
5.KAJ
4.Bill Russell
3.Magic
2.Wilt
1.Jordan

[Miserio]

It's common for some reason that Duncan is above Kobe and I don't know why, so explain your cases people.
Because he's better.

[boss-]

prime garnet >> prime duncan

[TheFrozenOne]

I never seen any Poll from the majority of the basketball community seeing Duncan higher then Kobe...

all the major poll's (ESPN , Sporting news , etc.) have Kobe over Duncan.

[Micku]

Depends on the person.

Some say he did more with less. He was a winner and the man from the start while Kobe still had a prime Shaq half of his career and Shaq was more of the main dog, even though Kobe is a great player in his own right. He also knocked out the 03 Lakers, which probably was a huge boast to his career. He had some good runs in the playoffs and finals. He was the type of guy who did the little things and helped his team to get success.

But I think a lot casual ppl think that Kobe is better than Duncan. But casual ppl ranking of the top 10 is sometimes all over the place. But it's all an opinion.

[stallionaire]

I never seen any Poll from the majority of the basketball community seeing Duncan higher then Kobe...

all the major poll's (ESPN , Sporting news , etc.) have Kobe over Duncan.

:lol

I wish there was a way we could poll all former great NBA players on this question, they would all say Duncan.

[MagicMoose]

Duncan is the best to ever play the position.

When you look at the #2 spot, Kobe can never be considered that. Ever.
This doesn't make Duncan a better player.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol

I wish there was a way we could poll all former great NBA players on this question, they would all say Duncan.
:oldlol: No they wouldn't

[Dizzle-2k7]

I can easily come up with an argument that Duncan > Kobe all time.

Duncan's Resume:

-Greatest PF of all time
-Robbed of atleast 2 DPOY which would put him on a Jordan-esque level of awards.
-Won 4 rings as defensive anchor and offensive juggernaut.
-3 Finals MVPs. Kobe has 2.
-Just as clutch on offense, more clutch on defense
-Never played with a top 5 player in his prime.
-Never missed the playoffs.
-Much better teamplayer and rolemodel.

As it is, both are deservedly in the top 10 :bowdown:

[k0kakw0rld]

Duncan 3 FMVP + 2xMVP awards Career avg Double Double > Kobe 2xFMVP 1xMVP

[Coffee Black]

Duncan is the best to ever play the position.

When you look at the #2 spot, Kobe can never be considered that. Ever.

That can not really be your logic behind this. By playing along with your way of thinking, two of either Wilt, Kareem, or Russell can not be considered better than Duncan either.

[donald_trump]

:oldlol: No they wouldn't

completely agree. kobe stands out the most. hes the most popular. hes on the biggest team. hes the most talked about. he doesnt have to be the better player or have the better career to actually be placed above duncan on the list.

i personally have duncan higher, but i know in 20 years from now it definitely wont be looked like that.

[Dizzle-2k7]

he doesnt have to be the better player or have the better career to actually be placed above duncan on the list.



:wtf:

[miles berg]

Duncan was the greater player but Kobe being a Laker will vault him above Duncan over time.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Duncan was the greater player


:D

[Alamo]

Since Duncan joined the spurs, they have never had a season below .600 and 8 seasons above the .700 mark.

He's a winner.

But I don't think Duncan is clearly ahead of Kobe on an all time list. But he is the greatest PF of all time.

[DUP]

It's common for some reason that Duncan is above Kobe and I don't know why, so explain your cases people.
lol

[FindingTim]

Duncan is one of those guys, when you have him, no matter who his teammates are, you think "all right, we have ourselves a team".
Kobe was never on that level. he is top 5 in terms of skill/craft though...

[macpierce]

Eh, tim duncan as great as he is, since 2007 they've been meh in the playoffs..........kobe on the other hand. I think kobe's longevity and even one more ring could give him the nod.

[StateOfMind12]

Depends on the person.

Some say he did more with less. He was a winner and the man from the start while Kobe still had a prime Shaq half of his career and Shaq was more of the main dog, even though Kobe is a great player in his own right. He also knocked out the 03 Lakers, which probably was a huge boast to his career. He had some good runs in the playoffs and finals. He was the type of guy who did the little things and helped his team to get success.

But I think a lot casual ppl think that Kobe is better than Duncan. But casual ppl ranking of the top 10 is sometimes all over the place. But it's all an opinion.
Duncan's '03 playoff run is pretty overrated. I explained this in another thread and I'll quote it on here for this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6737430#post6737430



I do think prime and peak Duncan was somewhat overrated though. I am talking about his '03 season that everybody is always amazed about. Now don't get me wrong, Duncan's '03 season was pretty amazing. However, I don't think it was comparable or as amazing as what Hakeem did in '94 or as amazing as many people say it was.



In the '03 playoffs, a lot of the West teams got banged up and suffered some key injuries.


-Sacramento Kings - They supposedly made some great moves during the off-season. The Kings lost to the Lakers in 7 in the WCF last season in '02. The moves the Kings made in the off-season were suppose to put them over the top and above the Lakers.

What happened? Chris Webber suffered a serious injury in the '03 playoffs against the Mavericks and because of that the Kings lost a good shot at going deep in the playoffs and winning it. The Mavericks-Kings series was tied 1-1 when Webber got hurt. I hate Chris Webber and I do think he is overrated, but how often do you lose your best player and continue to win a series and go deep in the playoffs?

The Spurs didn't play the Kings in the '03 playoffs but the Mavericks were the ones that eliminated them and they did it in 7. This just goes to show you how deep and great of a team the Kings were in general, with or without C-Webb.

-Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant injured his shoulder in 2003 first round against the T-Wolves and despite that he played a great series against Minnesota. Kobe was pretty much known and is pretty much known for being the Spurs killer but because of the shoulder injury he suffered against the Wolves he wasn't able to dominate them as he commonly would.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/06/11/bryant_lakers_ap/


Bryant was injured on April 22 during a first-round playoff game against the Minnesota Timberwolves.

The injury was diagnosed as a tear in the tissue around the shoulder socket.

He said that he suffered the injury when he went to the rim for a dunk and jammed his shoulder.

"It affected me a lot," he said. "The playoffs, you just have to play through it."

Kobe wasn't the only injured player on the Lakers either. Rick Fox didn't play in the Spurs series at all although I did not recall his injury but he stopped playing after Game 4 in the 1st round against the T-Wolves. I assume that Fox got hurt in that Game 4 because his stats were empty in that game.

Also, IIRC, Fox's backup, Devean George was also somewhat injured and playing through some pain in the '03 playoffs as well.

So the Lakers had arguably their best player in Kobe Bryant playing through a shoulder injury that affected his game severely, lost their starting small forward in Rick Fox, and their backup SF Devean George was playing through some pain.

There was a reason why the Wolves were up 2-1 against the Lakers in the 1st round in the '03 playoffs and the reason was far from the T-Wolves being the more talented team.

-Dallas Mavericks - People need to remember that Dirk sat out in Game 4, 5, and 6 in the WCF against the Spurs. Dirk suffered a sprained knee in Game 3 and was out for the entire series. The Mavericks lost their best player for the rest of the series. The series was 1-2 after Game 3 so you could argue that the Spurs would have won that series anyways but now we would never know.


Duncan's '03 run was great but he had a lot of breaks and it is not comparable to what Hakeem did in '94. The '02-'03 season was honestly just an odd year in general.

[Micku]

Duncan's '03 playoff run is pretty overrated. I explained this in another thread and I'll quote it on here for this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6737430#post6737430

You were comparing Hakeem to Duncan, huh? Hakeem peak was probably better than Duncan, but that's another story.

Well, Kobe had a good series against the Spurs. Not so much on his FG%, but he manage to average 32.3 ppg. The Lakers could have more of a chance to win that series if Horry made that one last second shot.

If I can recall, nobody really thought that the Spurs would beat the Lakers. Even the Lakers weren't worried because they felt like they were on the top of the world. The way Duncan played and the fact that he did knock out the Lakers did boast him up.

[TheFrozenOne]

:lol

I wish there was a way we could poll all former great NBA players on this question, they would all say Duncan.


no actually they would say Kobe...by a landslide.

[StateOfMind12]

Well, Kobe had a good series against the Spurs. Not so much on his FG%, but he manage to average 32.3 ppg. The Lakers could have more of a chance to win that series if Horry made that one last second shot.
Well like I said in that post if you bothered to read any of it, Kobe was injured as was many other key players in that rotation. I also think Horry shot like in the 20 percent range in that series as well.

That season was just bizarre really.



If I can recall, nobody really thought that the Spurs would beat the Lakers. Even the Lakers weren't worried because they felt like they were on the top of the world. The way Duncan played and the fact that he did knock out the Lakers did boast him up.
I would assume it was because the Lakers had kicked their ass in the past two post-seasons with no problem.

2001: Lakers swept them 4-0
2002: Lakers won 4-1.

Lakers probably would have won that series had Kobe, Fox, George, etc. and all those other key players didn't get hurt. Spurs could have also lost to the Mavericks in the WCF if Dirk didn't get hut and they also could have faced and lost to the Kings in the WCF if Webber didn't get hurt as I stated in the original post.

People seem to forget about the context of Duncan's '03 season. I'm not trying to take anything away from Duncan because it was a spectacular season and accomplished by him. But it wasn't as dominant and as spectacular as Hakeem's '94 season like many people compare Duncan's '03 season to.

[ThaRegul8r]

People seem to forget about the context of Duncan's '03 season. I'm not trying to take anything away from Duncan because it was a spectacular season and accomplished by him. But it wasn't as dominant and as spectacular as Hakeem's '94 season like many people compare Duncan's '03 season to.

If you want to talk about dominant and spectacular, then you would talk about Hakeem's '95. That was the year that had people talking about Hakeem's place in history, not '94. I was there, watched basketball, listened to every national sports radio show and read every basketball publication. '94's significance is in combination with '95, because in those two years he went through every single one of his contemporary rivals at his position. I rarely see people mention the fact that if Ewing had won, then everyone would be talking about '94 Ewing and '03 Duncan. Hakeem was one of my favorite players to watch, but I'm capable of being objective.

[Coffee Black]

Does anyone consider that the spurs inability to win back to back championships, or even make back to back finals, as sign to how dominant Duncan really was/is.

[Big#50]

Kobe needs to shoot the ball 30 times to be effective. Why is three-dimensionals even a question? Been done to death. Also,the guy that says Tim's 03 run is overrated, gtfoh.

[StateOfMind12]

If you want to talk about dominant and spectacular, then you would talk about Hakeem's '95. That was the year that had people talking about Hakeem's place in history, not '94. I was there, watched basketball, listened to every national sports radio show and read every basketball publication. '94's significance is in combination with '95, because in those two years he went through every single one of his contemporary rivals at his position. I rarely see people mention the fact that if Ewing had won, then everyone would be talking about '94 Ewing and '03 Duncan. Hakeem was one of my favorite players to watch, but I'm capable of being objective.
Dream's '95 post-season run was much more dominant and spectacular than his '94 post-season run. However, Dream's overall '94 season was better than Dream's overall '95 season.

Can you name any player other than Dream that won the

MVP
Finals MVP
DPOY
All-NBA First Team
All-NBA Defensive First Team

All in the same season and without another all-star player on their team? Because that was what Dream did in '94.

The reason why '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan are compared is because they won championships without another all-star on their team. It's not that similar outside of that though if you truly think about it.

Dream was not the MVP in '95 because he was injured and Robinson took his place. Dream was actually on the All-NBA Third team in '95. Shaq was on the 2nd team and Robinson was on the 1st team. Hakeem didn't win DPOY that season, Robinson did, and Hakeem actually played with another all-star on that team in Clyde Drexler, at least after the mid-season when they acquired him.

Either way we aren't talking about Dream so I don't know why you're brought it up and decided to cherry pick my post about it especially when this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan.

[Meticode]

There's a couple reasons why mainly I think. One, he's probably the best power forward ever. Two, he won all those championships being the main focal point of the team and the leader...although you could argue the first one when David Robinson was towards the end of his career.

[YAWN]

He's not anymore on most peoples, but Duncan does still has an argument for now.

[madmax]

Because he's better.

this:applause:

[ThaRegul8r]

If you want to talk about dominant and spectacular, then you would talk about Hakeem's '95. That was the year that had people talking about Hakeem's place in history, not '94. I was there, watched basketball, listened to every national sports radio show and read every basketball publication. '94's significance is in combination with '95, because in those two years he went through every single one of his contemporary rivals at his position. I rarely see people mention the fact that if Ewing had won, then everyone would be talking about '94 Ewing and '03 Duncan. Hakeem was one of my favorite players to watch, but I'm capable of being objective.

Dream's '95 post-season run was much more dominant and spectacular than his '94 post-season run.

Dominance and spectacularity was the subject.


However, Dream's overall '94 season was better than Dream's overall '95 season.

And again, no one was reassessing Hakeem's place in history in '94. They were in '95. I can post plenty of examples.


Can you name any player other than Dream that won the

MVP
Finals MVP
DPOY
All-NBA First Team
All-NBA Defensive First Team

All in the same season and without another all-star player on their team?

No one else did it because the Defensive Player of the Year award didn't even exist until the 1982-83 season. Had it existed before then, then Hakeem wouldn't have been the only one to accomplish the feat. But I digress.


Because that was what Dream did in '94.

I'm aware of that, because I watched basketball as it happened.


The reason why '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan are compared is because they won championships without another all-star on their team.

I am aware of this.


Either way we aren't talking about Dream so I don't know why you're brought it up and decided to cherry pick my post about it especially when this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan.

Uhh... I dunno, maybe because you brought up Dream's name in the first place?

:confusedshrug:

If "this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan," then Hakeem's name had no business coming up in the first place in any capacity since he is irrelevant to this discussion. I find it odd that the person who brought his name up in the first place would make this statement.

[ThaRegul8r]

As to the question, Duncan was the best player on four NBA championship teams

[StateOfMind12]

If "this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan," then Hakeem's name had no business coming up in the first place in any capacity since he is irrelevant to this discussion. I find it odd that the person who brought his name up in the first place would make this statement.
Actually I just brought an old quote from another thread about Duncan. Hakeem's name just happened to come up and another poster mentioned it. Either way lets stop talking about Hakeem here and just talk about Kobe and Duncan. I do think Duncan's '03 season was still overrated as I explained in the last page of this thread.


There's a couple reasons why mainly I think. One, he's probably the best power forward ever. Two, he won all those championships being the main focal point of the team and the leader...although you could argue the first one when David Robinson was towards the end of his career.

Being the best power ever should mean anything since Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG of all-time only to be behind Michael Jordan which is nothing to be ashamed of.

I understand your second point though and that is probably why a decent amount of people still believe Duncan is above Kobe in the all-time list. I use to have Duncan above Kobe in my all-time list but I am starting to think that I should change my mind about that.



I understand 81, 62-61, 35.4 :blah are the sexy numbers, but consider this:

the league never changed the rules so that Duncan could flourish.
People were already saying that Kobe was the best player in the game or better than Duncan before the '04-'05 season though when the hand-check was taken away.

[OmniStrife]

It's very close, I think his 3 FMVPS should've been 4 imo, and the fact that he's the GOAT when it comes to PFs are what takes him over Kobe.

[Pointguard]

I can easily come up with an argument that Duncan > Kobe all time.

Duncan's Resume:

-Greatest PF of all time
-Robbed of atleast 2 DPOY which would put him on a Jordan-esque level of awards.
-Won 4 rings as defensive anchor and offensive juggernaut.
-3 Finals MVPs. Kobe has 2.
Just as clutch on offense, more clutch on defense.
-Never played with a top 5 player in his prime.

As it is, both are deservedly in the top 10 :bowdown:
Plus the two MVP's to Kobe's one.

And if you switched teams. Duncan's teams win from 99 to 05 without interruption - perhaps a hiccup in there somewhere. They also win in 08 and 09 maybe 2010. Kobe on SA might win one ring but it is doubtful because the Lakers would be dominating with Duncan. Duncan was one of the most amazing winners in the sport.

Did Duncan ever play with a top 10 player???

[Artillery]

I would assume it was because the Lakers had kicked their ass in the past two post-seasons with no problem.

2001: Lakers swept them 4-0
2002: Lakers won 4-1.

Lakers probably would have won that series had Kobe, Fox, George, etc. and all those other key players didn't get hurt. Spurs could have also lost to the Mavericks in the WCF if Dirk didn't get hut and they also could have faced and lost to the Kings in the WCF if Webber didn't get hurt as I stated in the original post.

Awful post. You cherry pick the '03 season for injuries on the Lakers side while ignoring that the second option on the '01 Spurs team(Derek Anderson) was injured in the 2nd round series against the Mavs from a dirty Juwan Howard foul and never returned to form afterwards. Same goes for '02 with Robinson playing injured against the Lakers.

You could throw the injury excuse at just about any championship run, especially Kobe's(Magic's injuries in the 2009 Finals, Celtics with Perkins in 2010, etc) Even attempting to form an argument based on injuries and trying to pass a championship run off as "lucky" is lazy reasoning.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Timmy has always done more with less. Guy just makes his teammates better. It's not an accident that SA is known for it's ability to draft future potential. It ain't front office genius, it's Timmy's ability to command the floor and lift his guys to higher levels.

Kobe on the other-hand has yet to win a ring without the most talented big men in the league playing beside him.

The correct answer is Duncan.


Awful post.

What else is new? :oldlol:

[bdreason]

I have Duncan over Kobe, but it's certainly close. I'm just more impressed with Duncan's 4 rings, and what he meant to those teams. No disrespect to the Black Mamba, but he's never controlled the game like Tim Duncan (or Shaq) did.

[StateOfMind12]

Plus the two MVP's to Kobe's one.
MVPs is an objective award. Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq have combined ad Nash has as many MVPs as Duncan does. Are we really going to compare Nash to those guys? Nash is probably a top 25-30 player of all-time at best.


And if you switched teams. Duncan's teams win from 99 to 05 without interruption - perhaps a hiccup in there somewhere. They also win in 08 and 09 maybe 2010. Kobe on SA might win one ring but it is doubtful because the Lakers would be dominating with Duncan. Duncan was one of the most amazing winners in the sport.
I'm not sure what is the point of discussing the Kobe-Duncan hypothetical swap. You can only base greatness on what did happen, not on what should have happened or what could have happened.

Duncan would not have won in '08, '09, or '10. Duncan stopped being an effective and dominant force after the '07 season (his last championship). He stopped being a superstar after '07, '08 he still had something left in him but not that much. He was just an all-star in '08 and in '09 and '10 he was barely an all-star.

Duncan currently isn't doing much to help his legacy now a days either and hasn't since 2007. Duncan doesn't even play 30+ mpg anymore while Kobe at the end of this season will probably lead the league in scoring (3rd scoring title), be in the All-NBA First team again, and is also going to get another all-star appearance.



Did Duncan ever play with a top 10 player???
I'm not sure why it matters since Kobe won without a top 10 player in '08-'09 and '09-'10. Gasol was never a top 10 player in the league although his best argument would be in '09-'10 but I still don't think he was top 10.


Awful post. You cherry pick the '03 season for injuries on the Lakers side while ignoring that the second option on the '01 Spurs team(Derek Anderson) was injured in the 2nd round series against the Mavs from a dirty Juwan Howard foul and never returned to form afterwards. Same goes for '02 with Robinson playing injured against the Lakers.

You could throw the injury excuse at just about any championship run, especially Kobe's(Magic's injuries in the 2009 Finals, Celtics with Perkins in 2010, etc) Even attempting to form an argument based on injuries and trying to pass a championship run off as "lucky" is lazy reasoning.

Artillery, not going to take too much time responding to you since you are clearly an irrational Kobe hater, I mean I'm talking 32Dayz bad.

However, you did bring up a good point though but I wasn't trying to knock on Duncan's run and say it was fluke or say he shouldn't have won the championship or something like that. I was just trying to say it was not as special and as dominant as most people made out of it. There is also a difference between missing 2-3 key rotation players like the Lakers did in '03 and missing one key rotation player like what you listed. It is one of the few times I'll respond to you though but I just want to let you know for future references that I'm not going to put up with you that much especially when you start to become 32Dayz bad.

[Kingsfans818]

prime garnet >> prime duncan
false

however, I am one to argue that PEAK Garnett >> Peak Duncan

problem is that garnett's peak only seemed to be for that one MVP season where he was completely unbelievable playing the PG for the wolves team when Cassell went down

Duncan however gets the nod because his "prime" was about 6 years where he was extremely consistent

[Artillery]

I understand 81, 62-61, 35.4 :blah are the sexy numbers, but consider this:

35.4 isn't even world shatteringly impressive seeing as Iverson was doing 33 that same year, Lebron at 31, Arenas at 30, and a whole slew of other perimeter players reaching career highs. NBA rules changes FTL


the league never changed the rules so that Duncan could flourish.

League actually made it HARDER for post players - Zone D and the defensive 3 seconds

[Harison]

Duncan is just above Kobe (9th and 10th respectively).

Duncan gets a nod because he did more with less, and two-way elite big man impacts game more than elite guards, not named Jordan.

[rmt]

Duncan has done slightly more with much less. He's had lesser team mates, lesser coach, lesser owner, much less attractive city to attract free agents, less money (IIRC, LA 40% more salary than SA) for team mates. Wish SA hadn't let Scola and SJax go (Holt was so cheap wanting to stay below luxury tax line).

He's won 4 rings as the man with 2 MVPs. He didn't have the luxury of playing with the MDE for eight years of Shaq's prime. He's been the better leader and team mate.

If you had to start a franchise, who would you choose to build around (all other things being equal)? They've built and rebuilt around TD who allowed Parker and Manu to grow into the players they are and even now rookies and 2nd year players are thriving in SA. If TD had Bynum on his team, where would Bynum be in his development? Think TD would be saying "it all starts with me, bigs feed off me, not going to change." No wonder some of Kobe's team mates look so disinterested.

Oh, and 2003 Duncan > any Kobe

[Artillery]

MVPs is an objective award. Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq have combined ad Nash has as many MVPs as Duncan does. Are we really going to compare Nash to those guys? Nash is probably a top 25-30 player of all-time at best.

lol, I guess Finals MVPs are worthless too? Weak argument.


I'm not sure why it matters since Kobe won without a top 10 player in '08-'09 and '09-'10. Gasol was never a top 10 player in the league although his best argument would be in '09-'10 but I still don't think he was top 10.

Kobe's had an ALL-NBA teammate on EVERY one of those Laker teams. Duncan's never had an ALL-NBA teammate on ANY of his championship teams.


Artillery, not going to take too much time responding to you since you are clearly an irrational Kobe hater, I mean I'm talking 32Dayz bad.

99% of my ISH posts have NOTHING to do with Kobe but, yeah, keep pretending I have an agenda. I could just as easily label you a delusional Kobe fanboy but I'm not going to stoop to your level of idiocy,


However, you did bring up a good point though but I wasn't trying to knock on Duncan's run and say it was fluke or say he shouldn't have won the championship or something like that. I was just trying to say it was not as special and as dominant as most people made out of it.

You say this like any of Kobe's playoff runs were dominant. lol at being outproduced by Pau Gasol.


There is also a difference between missing 2-3 key rotation players like the Lakers did in '03 and missing one key rotation player like what you listed.

Derek Anderson - primary scorer/defender on the wing position and the 2nd option on the team. His injury along with Sean Elliott's(battling kidney disease) had the Spurs resorting to using POINT GUARDS to defend Kobe - 6'3 Antonio Daniels with 38 year old 6'3 Terry Porter. Spurs were depleted at the swingman position because of the Anderson/Elliott injuries in 2001. Important to a team like SA that relied on defense to win games during their dominant regular season run.


It is one of the few times I'll respond to you though but I just want to let you know for future references that I'm not going to put up with you that much especially when you start to become 32Dayz bad.

I don't know who the hell 32Dayz but it's obvious that he's abused your psyche to the point where you're afraid of responding to anyone that presents a counter-argument to the Kobe debate.

[StateOfMind12]

lol, I guess Finals MVPs are worthless too? Weak argument.

The guy was simply talking about regular season MVP, not Finals MVP.


Kobe's had an ALL-NBA teammate on EVERY one of those Laker teams. Duncan's never had an ALL-NBA teammate on ANY of his championship teams.
So the media, writers, analysts, etc. overrated Kobe's teammates and underrated Duncan's teammates. That is bound to happen since Kobe plays in the biggest market in the NBA (LA) while Duncan plays in one of the smallest market in the NBA (San Antonio).

They played with the same amount of all-stars or all-star caliber players for the most part though. All-NBA Teams hold little to no meaning or stock to me since they're just others opinions.

But who was Kobe's All-NBA teammate in '07-'08? I'm just curious. That was the year that Kobe led his team to the NBA Finals and he had one of the most dominant playoff runs heading into the NBA Finals just to remind you.



99% of my ISH posts have NOTHING to do with Kobe but, yeah, keep pretending I have an agenda. I could just as easily label you a delusional Kobe fanboy but I'm not going to stoop to your level of idiocy,
:oldlol: Sure, whatever though you can deny it, that's cool.


You say this like any of Kobe's playoff runs were dominant. lol at being outproduced by Pau Gasol.
When was this? '08? Absolutely not. '09? Absolutely not. '10? I'm sure there were a decent amount of games where Gasol played better than Kobe but for the most part in that playoff run Kobe was better.

What do you have next?


Derek Anderson - primary scorer/defender on the wing position and the 2nd option on the team. His injury along with Sean Elliott's(battling kidney disease) had the Spurs resorting to using POINT GUARDS to defend Kobe - 6'3 Antonio Daniels with 38 year old 6'3 Terry Porter. Spurs were depleted at the swingman position because of the Anderson/Elliott injuries in 2001. Important to a team like SA that relied on defense to win games during their dominant regular season run.
Good job, you found one playoff series where Kobe and his team play against a team that was missing and had two injured players.

Carry on though.

[toxicxr6]

I believe if Duncan was actually a laker for his career he would be alot higher in the rankings.
Over the course of their careers the rosters that Kobe have been on have cost an extra close to 400 million.. Over rhe whole career.. Imagine if the spurs had the money to chase the best players in the league to match with Duncan. Duncan may have won 6 or 7 rings or more... That money is a factor... Money always is... Look at the top 10 players of all time... See how many come from big markets.. Duncan is virtually alone on that list on a small market team.

Reality money wins championships.. Until Duncan came along

[Pointguard]

MVPs is an objective award. Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq have combined ad Nash has as many MVPs as Duncan does. Are we really going to compare Nash to those guys? Nash is probably a top 25-30 player of all-time at best.
Aren't finals MVP's objective awards as well? Duncan wins those awards on his own merit. Very different if he had another great player on his team. Duncan carried those teams. A lot of things are subjective but somethings are obvious. Duncan is a better finals player than Kobe. But we can't say it, because its subjective??? Kobe is great, but Duncan is like the ultimate team player.


I'm not sure what is the point of discussing the Kobe-Duncan hypothetical swap. You can only base greatness on what did happen, not on what should have happened or what could have happened.

Duncan would not have won in '08, '09, or '10. Duncan stopped being an effective and dominant force after the '07 season (his last championship). He stopped being a superstar after '07, '08 he still had something left in him but not that much. He was just an all-star in '08 and in '09 and '10 he was barely an all-star.

Duncan with help doesn't have to push himself very hard can still be very effective. He can't carry a team anymore but if he had two allstars, like Kobe has now, he could still propel a team to the finals - much less in the previous years. Last year he was still a big piece on a starless team that would have had a ten game lead on the Lakers if they were healthy. Carrying teams wears you down. Kobe had a better talent situation than Duncan in like 11 of the 15 years. Five, maybe six, of those years Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. Yet, Duncan has probably won more games.


Duncan currently isn't doing much to help his legacy now a days either and hasn't since 2007. Duncan doesn't even play 30+ mpg anymore while Kobe at the end of this season will probably lead the league in scoring (3rd scoring title), be in the All-NBA First team again, and is also going to get another all-star appearance.

If SA was/is healthy they would definitely finish above the Lakers in wins this year. Duncan has always allowed other players to thrive in his presence. Kobe has two allstars now that are way below their level of play. And if LA does work in the playoffs, it will be because the other guys will have to bail Kobe out. Duncan has always had Manu and Parker look like allstars. Yet combined they have only like three good years between them.

It seems like Kobe is after the scoring title at the expense of the team being ready for the playoffs or gaining some harmony. With three players among the best at their positions Laker nation knows they aren't ready. SA is like keep quiet, we know we have a shot. The presence of Duncan still has crazy weight. Duncan is still very much capable of a finals MVP if he can get some rest.

[ThaRegul8r]

Duncan has always allowed other players to thrive in his presence.

:applause:

You know, it irritates me how the pendulum has swung from spontaneous coordination to individualism. Nowadays in the eyes of fans players have to compete against not only the other team but against their own teammates, because a player has to be "The Man," and can't let a teammate overshadow him. It's not about elevating your teammates' games, but going for self, making sure you lead the team in PER, win shares, etc. Elevating your teammates might allow you to be upstaged by a teammate, which would make you worse if you allow a teammate to out-perform you, even if their performance was a direct result of your facilitation.

:facepalm

"Me" before "we."

[Odinn]

Close and Kobe still has a chance to surpass Duncan but now, still Duncan > Kobe.

http://d1202.hizliresim.com/u/f/2pkp5.jpg

[The Iron Fist]

lol, I guess Finals MVPs are worthless too? Weak argument.



Kobe's had an ALL-NBA teammate on EVERY one of those Laker teams. Duncan's never had an ALL-NBA teammate on ANY of his championship teams.



99% of my ISH posts have NOTHING to do with Kobe but, yeah, keep pretending I have an agenda. I could just as easily label you a delusional Kobe fanboy but I'm not going to stoop to your level of idiocy,


P
You say this like any of Kobe's playoff runs were dominant. lol at being outproduced by Pau Gasol.



Derek Anderson - primary scorer/defender on the wing position and the 2nd option on the team. His injury along with Sean Elliott's(battling kidney disease) had the Spurs resorting to using POINT GUARDS to defend Kobe - 6'3 Antonio Daniels with 38 year old 6'3 Terry Porter. Spurs were depleted at the swingman position because of the Anderson/Elliott injuries in 2001. Important to a team like SA that relied on defense to win games during their dominant regular season run.



I don't know who the hell 32Dayz but it's obvious that he's abused your psyche to the point where you're afraid of responding to anyone that presents a counter-argument to the Kobe debate.
How many all defensive players did Kobe play with?

[The Iron Fist]

Aren't finals MVP's objective awards as well? Duncan wins those awards on his own merit. Very different if he had another great player on his team. Duncan carried those teams. A lot of things are subjective but somethings are obvious. Duncan is a better finals player than Kobe. But we can't say it, because its subjective??? Kobe is great, but Duncan is like the ultimate team player.

Duncan with help doesn't have to push himself very hard can still be very effective. He can't carry a team anymore but if he had two allstars, like Kobe has now, he could still propel a team to the finals - much less in the previous years. Last year he was still a big piece on a starless team that would have had a ten game lead on the Lakers if they were healthy. Carrying teams wears you down. Kobe had a better talent situation than Duncan in like 11 of the 15 years. Five, maybe six, of those years Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. Yet, Duncan has probably won more games.

If SA was/is healthy they would definitely finish above the Lakers in wins this year. Duncan has always allowed other players to thrive in his presence. Kobe has two allstars now that are way below their level of play. And if LA does work in the playoffs, it will be because the other guys will have to bail Kobe out. Duncan has always had Manu and Parker look like allstars. Yet combined they have only like three good years between them.

It seems like Kobe is after the scoring title at the expense of the team being ready for the playoffs or gaining some harmony. With three players among the best at their positions Laker nation knows they aren't ready. SA is like keep quiet, we know we have a shot. The presence of Duncan still has crazy weight. Duncan is still very much capable of a finals MVP if he can get some rest.if being the"ultimate team player" is such a blessing, why has it not gotten him more than four rings?

Because it doesn't really matter. Kobe style of play has gotten him more titles than any of his era. There's Kobe and then everyone else behind.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Tony Parker vs Derrick Fisher
Manu Ginobli vs Shannon Brown?
Jefferson/Bowen/Jackson cs Ariza/Artest/Fox

2 HOF teammates per title team vs 1 per title team

I guess we are going to pretend that since Ginobli Bowen and Parker didnt make all nba teams they are not huge upgrades over whom Kobe played with since Van Exel and Jones.

[Ronaldinho]

Close and Kobe still has a chance to surpass Duncan but now, still Duncan > Kobe.

http://d1202.hizliresim.com/u/f/2pkp5.jpg
:applause:

[DUP]

OP is gay

[lakers_forever]

Duncan is above Kobe among most people here, but I'm sure it's safe to think Kobe will be (or already is) considered greater than Duncan by the media and common fans when their career ends, specially with Kobe's great longevity.

[INDI]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]As to the question, Duncan was the best player on four NBA championship teams

[Chrono90]

longevity is the reason why kobe is ahead of duncan

It goes back to 2000

Kobe vs Iverson
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs Gilbert (when gilbert was at his peak)
Kobe vs Ray Allen
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Lebron

We've been comparing Kobe to the best players at the moment for 12+ years now. Kobe never left.

[lakers_forever]

longevity is the reason why kobe is ahead of duncan

It goes back to 2000

Kobe vs Iverson
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs Gilbert (when gilbert was at his peak)
Kobe vs Ray Allen
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Lebron

We've been comparing Kobe to the best players at the moment for 12+ years now. Kobe never left.

I don't think it ever was against Arenas or Allen, more like:

Kobe vs A.I
Kobe vs Vince Carter (same period as A.I)
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Lebron

In any case, Kobe's always being there is very impressive.

[MMM]

longevity is the reason why kobe is ahead of duncan

It goes back to 2000

Kobe vs Iverson
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs Gilbert (when gilbert was at his peak)
Kobe vs Ray Allen
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Lebron

We've been comparing Kobe to the best players at the moment for 12+ years now. Kobe never left.

longevity is great but i tend to favor peak and prime in this case. I mean Duncan was a top 1-3 player in this league for about a decade so the longevity between the 2 do not differ by much. Finally as great as Kobe is/was i don't see how one can make an argument that he impacted games to the same degree that Duncan did but to be fair that has a lot to do with there different positions.

[AlexanderRight]

no actually they would say Kobe...by a landslide.

http://airstre.am/dopamine72/Nicolas%20Cage%20Laugh.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Its funny how its only Kobe that is compared to peak Shaq yet Duncan who has played a ton of minutes at Center is simply the greatest PF of all time. He's the greatest PF of all time only because all of the greatest big men (Hakeem/Shaq/Wilt/Kareem) are considered centers. If anybody should be compared to peak Shaq its Duncan. They were the ones guarding eachother when the Lake show routinely routed the Spurs.

[Harison]

Duncan is above Kobe among most people here, but I'm sure it's safe to think Kobe will be (or already is) considered greater than Duncan by the media and common fans when their career ends, specially with Kobe's great longevity.

Kobe is more marketable, and since he isnt done yet, NBA promotes him heavily too. Last times when Kobe was in the Finals, we saw plenty of "Kobe as good as Jordan" articles by NBA :rolleyes:

Bottom line, younger generation might pick Kobe, but for more knowledgeable fans, Duncan is ahead by a bit, at least atm.

[guy]

When 2 players' careers pretty much start at around the same time, I don't think the MVPs, Finals MVPs, and championships should really be taken into that much of an account. Its alot easier to see who was the better player without using those things. With that said, still hard to come up with who's better. I look at it this way. Duncan has had about 11-12 elite seasons (98 to 08 or 09) and Kobe has had about 12-13 elite seasons (00 or 01 to 2012). Duncan was better for 8 seasons (98-05) while Kobe was better for 7 seasons (06-12). Its hard to say. Of course its not that simple. If I had to go with one RIGHT NOW, I guess I'd say Duncan just he's clearly been an easier player to build around IMO due to how they can complement his skillset/dominance and unselfish nature, but I have little doubt that Kobe would surpass him with another elite season or 2 after this season.

[brownmamba00]

The only problem I have with Timmy is that he's never won b2b. He lost every single time when the Spurs were defending the title.

'00 vs the Suns: I'll give him a pass because he was injured and had a career low 4 point-game in that series

'04 vs the Lakers(HCA Spurs): 20/12/3 with 5TO's a game on 46% shooting while playing horrible on the road (16 pts on 36%)

And he got bumped in the second round of the '06 playoffs vs a 4th seed while having HCA and lost game 7 IN San Antonio. He did have a good series tho and a great game 7 but couldn't stop Dirk dropping 37/15 on his team in G7

'08: 22/17 on 46% shooting. Lost in 5.

That said I do have TD over Kobe for the moment, but it can all change depending on how Kobe performs this year's playoffs.

[Odinn]

longevity is the reason why kobe is ahead of duncan

It goes back to 2000

Kobe vs Iverson
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs Gilbert (when gilbert was at his peak)
Kobe vs Ray Allen
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Lebron

We've been comparing Kobe to the best players at the moment for 12+ years now. Kobe never left.
As for being best player in the L;
1998-99; Duncan was the best. Kobe wasn't top5.
1999-00; Duncan was the 2nd. Kobe wasn't top 5.
2000-01; Duncan was top3. Kobe was top3.
2001-02; Duncan was top2(Shaq or Duncan). Kobe was top5.
2002-03; Duncan was the best. Kobe was top5.
2003-04; Duncan was the 2nd. Kobe was top5.
2004-05; Duncan was the best. Kobe wasn't top5.
2005-06; Duncan was top5. Kobe was the best.
2006-07; Duncan was top2. Kobe was top2. (po; Duncan - rs; Kobe)
2007-08; Duncan was top5. Kobe was the best.
2008-09; Duncan wasn't top5. Kobe was top3(2nd or 3rd, depends on Wade).
2009-10; Duncan wasn't top5. Kobe was top3(depends on Wade&Durant).
2010-11; Both of them wasn't top 5.

How can Kobe have the edge on longevity "right now"?
Duncan was All-NBA and All-Defensive in his first 13 seasons and 2011/12 season is Kobe's 14th season as starter.

As for peak and prime; Duncan > Kobe. As for accomplishments/accolades; Duncan > Kobe. If Kobe gains the edge on longevity, still it'd remain debatable.

[Odinn]

The only problem I have with Timmy is that he's never won b2b. He lost every single time when the Spurs were defending the title.

'00 vs the Suns: I'll give him a pass because he was injured and had a career low 4 point-game in that series

'04 vs the Lakers(HCA Spurs): 20/12/3 with 5TO's a game on 46% shooting while playing horrible on the road (16 pts on 36%)

And he got bumped in the second round of the '06 playoffs vs a 4th seed while having HCA and lost game 7 IN San Antonio. He did have a good series tho and a great game 7 but couldn't stop Dirk dropping 37/15 on his team in G7

'08: 22/17 on 46% shooting. Lost in 5.
Larry Bird didn't win B2B but has a case to be top5 ever.

Duncan didn't play a single minute in 2000 playoffs. Wrong.
Fisher's miracolus shot...:facepalm But you're right about 2004 playoffs.
You can't judge Duncan for 2006 playoffs. Why did you leave out game7 performance of Duncan? It was Ginobili's idiotic foul. Duncan played probably his best series.

You're right about only 2004 playoffs.

[brownmamba00]

Larry Bird didn't win B2B but has a case to be top5 ever.

Duncan didn't play a single minute in 2000 playoffs. Wrong.
Fisher's miracolus shot...:facepalm But you're right about 2004 playoffs.
You can't judge Duncan for 2006 playoffs. Why did you leave out game7 performance of Duncan? It was Ginobili's idiotic foul. Duncan played probably his best series.

You're right about only 2004 playoffs.
yeah my bad about the '00 playoffs. I thought the career low game on 15 min. vs phoenix was in the playoffs. And I wasn't judging TD for the '06 playoffs. And I didn't leave out TD's G7 out. He really did have a great series but his team should've won nonetheless. HCA, G7 on your own court and he couldn't hit a shot in OT (was like 1/7?, it's been a long time since I watched that game), but yeah getting bumped out in the 2nd round when you're the first seed in the reg. season isn't something to brag about

[HurricaneKid]

I'm glad to see so many knowledgeable people come to TDs defense here. I was always concerned that his lack of gaudy play, playing in a tiny market, without an oversized personality was going to cost him. That OP could make such a post supports this.

However, clinical greatness while being the defensive cornerstone and maintaining tremendous efficiency is remarkable. Yet it is the very essence of what is underreported next to the highlight play.

[The Iron Fist]

What players that Tim had as starters equaled Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm? Anyone? Spare me this garbage about playing with no talent when it comes to Duncan. He's had solid teams from day one. Lets not forget the tank job SA pulled to land him. Lets not act like Spurs completely rebuilt around him as a floundering franchise.

[The Iron Fist]

I'm glad to see so many knowledgeable people come to TDs defense here. I was always concerned that his lack of gaudy play, playing in a tiny market, without an oversized personality was going to cost him. That OP could make such a post supports this.

However, clinical greatness while being the defensive cornerstone and maintaining tremendous efficiency is remarkable. Yet it is the very essence of what is underreported next to the highlight play.
So playing with all defensive players has no impact on the success of the team?

[rmt]

They played with the same amount of all-stars or all-star caliber players for the most part though. All-NBA Teams hold little to no meaning or stock to me since they're just others opinions.

In 2003, neither Parker, SJax, Manu or DRob were all-star caliber players - TD carried that team on his back. So you think all-nba teams hold little to no meaning but all-star selections (voted by fans) matter?


The only problem I have with Timmy is that he's never won b2b. He lost every single time when the Spurs were defending the title.

And he got bumped in the second round of the '06 playoffs vs a 4th seed while having HCA and lost game 7 IN San Antonio. He did have a good series tho and a great game 7 but couldn't stop Dirk dropping 37/15 on his team in G7

Bird also never repeated - does that affect where you rank him?

TD went 41 pts /15 rebs / 6 assts / 3 blks in game 7 vs Dirk's 37/15/3/1. Dirk was guarded by Bowen/Horry/Finley - not TD. He played 49:33 and IIRC had to have IV after the game. It was Manu's stupid foul, up 2 with 22 seconds that cost them the chance to probably 3-peat.


What players that Tim had as starters equaled Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm? Anyone? Spare me this garbage about playing with no talent when it comes to Duncan. He's had solid teams from day one. Lets not forget the tank job SA pulled to land him. Lets not act like Spurs completely rebuilt around him as a floundering franchise.

20 year old Parker (his 2nd year), second year SJAX and rookie Manu - both with no playoff experience were Spurs' 2nd, 3rd and 4th options. Spurs were not a floundering franchise, but they rebuilt around him - not 1 player on the 05/07 runs was on the 99 run.


Also kobe's defensive resume is pretty impressive

LOL at Kobe deserving all-defensive 1st team honors in recent years.


So playing with all defensive players has no impact on the success of the team?

To be technical, TD won in 99 without any all-nba, all-defensive or all-star team mate. He won in 03, 05 and 07 without any all-nba team mate.

[SCdac]

I'm glad to see so many knowledgeable people come to TDs defense here. I was always concerned that his lack of gaudy play, playing in a tiny market, without an oversized personality was going to cost him. That OP could make such a post supports this.

However, clinical greatness while being the defensive cornerstone and maintaining tremendous efficiency is remarkable. Yet it is the very essence of what is underreported next to the highlight play.

Cost him what? the support of a bunch of teenagers on ISH? :oldlol:

Duncan doesn't need ISH to be considered great, let alone greater than Kobe. A bunch of Kobe-stans ain't going to change the history books. Duncan's 4 championships as the best player, some of those teams without an AS teammate, are why he's over Kobe... One of the best Winning-%'s in professional basketball since he's been in the league.

Duncan is a sure-fire HOF'er who been on magazine covers, commercials, all-star games, etc, etc.... It's not like we're talking about somebody just ISH knows about.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GViSJx0jk_s/TP-5rYcikXI/AAAAAAAAEQM/ntHmAkGE7lE/s1600/0531_large.jpg

[Jotaro Durant]

Cost him what? the support of a bunch of teenagers on ISH? :oldlol:

Duncan doesn't need ISH to be considered great, let alone greater than Kobe. A bunch of Kobe-stans ain't going to change the history books. Duncan's 4 championships as the best player, some of those teams without an AS teammate, are why he's over Kobe... One of the best Winning-%'s in professional basketball since he's been in the league.

Duncan is a sure-fire HOF'er who been on magazine covers, commercials, all-star games, etc, etc.... It's not like we're talking about somebody just ISH knows about.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GViSJx0jk_s/TP-5rYcikXI/AAAAAAAAEQM/ntHmAkGE7lE/s1600/0531_large.jpg

http://www.clap.name/images/blog/tony_parker.jpg:rockon:

[SCdac]

http://www.clap.name/images/blog/tony_parker.jpg:rockon:

http://www.nba.com/lakers/photos/ts_110601shaqretires650.jpg

:rockon:

[Jotaro Durant]

http://www.nba.com/lakers/photos/ts_110601shaqretires650.jpg

:rockon:

:confusedshrug:

i hate kobe if thats what youre thinking:oldlol:

[The Iron Fist]

In 2003, neither Parker, SJax, Manu or DRob were all-star caliber players - TD carried that team on his back. So you think all-nba teams hold little to no meaning but all-star selections (voted by fans) matter?



Bird also never repeated - does that affect where you rank him?

TD went 41 pts /15 rebs / 6 assts / 3 blks in game 7 vs Dirk's 37/15/3/1. Dirk was guarded by Bowen/Horry/Finley - not TD. He played 49:33 and IIRC had to have IV after the game. It was Manu's stupid foul, up 2 with 22 seconds that cost them the chance to probably 3-peat.



20 year old Parker (his 2nd year), second year SJAX and rookie Manu - both with no playoff experience were Spurs' 2nd, 3rd and 4th options. Spurs were not a floundering franchise, but they rebuilt around him - not 1 player on the 05/07 runs was on the 99 run.



LOL at Kobe deserving all-defensive 1st team honors in recent years.



To be technical, TD won in 99 without any all-nba, all-defensive or all-star team mate. He won in 03, 05 and 07 without any all-nba team mate.


So playing with all defensive players has no impact on the success of the team?


To be technical, he had David Robinson who was no slouch.

[get these NETS]

It's common for some reason that Duncan is above Kobe and I don't know why, so explain your cases people.
thread should have been over after one page


because they don't play the same position......the fact that Duncan is CLEARLY the best player at his position and arguably no less than number 3 by ANY criteria....elevates him above a guy who can never ever ever be viewed as number one sg....


the best orange beats the (at best) second best apple

[HurricaneKid]

Cost him what? the support of a bunch of teenagers on ISH? :oldlol:



Cost him the great legacy he deserves. Cost him money at trade shows as his auto isn't craved like Kobe's is/will be. Cost him in the public's perception.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Timmy has always done more with less. Guy just makes his teammates better. It's not an accident that SA is known for it's ability to draft future potential. It ain't front office genius, it's Timmy's ability to command the floor and lift his guys to higher levels.

Kobe on the other-hand has yet to win a ring without the most talented big men in the league playing beside him.

The correct answer is Duncan.



What else is new? :oldlol:
:oldlol: :roll:
:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Cost him what? the support of a bunch of teenagers on ISH? :oldlol:

Duncan doesn't need ISH to be considered great, let alone greater than Kobe. A bunch of Kobe-stans ain't going to change the history books. Duncan's 4 championships as the best player, some of those teams without an AS teammate, are why he's over Kobe... One of the best Winning-%'s in professional basketball since he's been in the league.

Duncan is a sure-fire HOF'er who been on magazine covers, commercials, all-star games, etc, etc.... It's not like we're talking about somebody just ISH knows about.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GViSJx0jk_s/TP-5rYcikXI/AAAAAAAAEQM/ntHmAkGE7lE/s1600/0531_large.jpg
"substance over style"? thats why he's better?
and considering the jerseys that was probably '97-'99 when Kobe wasn't even 21 yet

[Coffee Black]

thread should have been over after one page


because they don't play the same position......the fact that Duncan is CLEARLY the best player at his position and arguably no less than number 3 by ANY criteria....elevates him above a guy who can never ever ever be viewed as number one sg....


the best orange beats the (at best) second best apple

Again, what kind of logic is that? So by your method two of either Wilt, Russel, and Jabbar can not be considered better than Duncan. Come on now.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

thread should have been over after one page


because they don't play the same position......the fact that Duncan is CLEARLY the best player at his position and arguably no less than number 3 by ANY criteria....elevates him above a guy who can never ever ever be viewed as number one sg....


the best orange beats the (at best) second best apple

Duncan isn't better than Jordan either

:confusedshrug:

[guy]

thread should have been over after one page


because they don't play the same position......the fact that Duncan is CLEARLY the best player at his position and arguably no less than number 3 by ANY criteria....elevates him above a guy who can never ever ever be viewed as number one sg....


the best orange beats the (at best) second best apple

Thats dumb logic. That would only make some sense if we just assume that that their competition at that position is the exact same.

[The Choken One]

It's common for some reason that Duncan is above Kobe and I don't know why, so explain your cases people.
It's common for people who blindly dislike Kobe and anyone who might possibly have a case, is ontop of him to them.

Kobe > Duncan.

True story.

LMFAO @ some of the posts in this thread. I hope alot of you guys are trolling...if not...smfh.

[chazzy]

Thats dumb logic. That would only make some sense if we just assume that that their competition at that position is the exact same.
Yeah I guess that makes Duncan better than the 2nd best center by default.

[get these NETS]

Again, what kind of logic is that? So by your method two of either Wilt, Russel, and Jabbar can not be considered better than Duncan. Come on now.

I've read all three of those centers being called the best for different reasons

never seen read or beleived kobe was the best at his position

================================================== ======

duncan and kobe played in the same era....try again

[get these NETS]

Thats dumb logic. That would only make some sense if we just assume that that their competition at that position is the exact same.


duncan played about 3-4 years when the four position was about as stacked as it's ever been with talent....especially the western conference teams that he played against night in and night out.....he still won rings....still made all nba offensive and defensive


I'm assuming that people who read this thread are already aware of certain things..

[get these NETS]

Duncan isn't better than Jordan either

:confusedshrug:


water is wet

[The Choken One]

Let me just end this thread for you guys...

last time I checked...5>4.

I'll let you figure out the rest.

/thread.

[Mr Know It All]

Duncan was a better franchise player, pure and simple. He did more with way less than what Kobe had. He never complained, he never berated his teammates, and he still had the will and desire to win and compete (Kobe fans will blame Kobe's dickhead personality on his unbelievable desire to win, but in reality he's just a selfish douche and frankly a poor teammate).

Most of all, Duncan was never the 2nd best player on his team in his prime, Kobe was. Duncan was the more efficient scorer and just made a much bigger impact on the floor. ESPN and the media absolutely salivate over wing players, that's why guys like Iverson, Kobe, McGrady, and Vince Carter were so overrated in their primes in this era. Efficient scoring >> Inefficient volume scoring everyday of the week. That's why guys like Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Lebron, who consistently were in the top 3-5 in PER in their primes were always on 50+ winning teams no matter how bad their teammates were.

Kobe without any all-stars managed to miss the playoffs, blow a 3-1 lead in the first round and flame out, and then get whooped in 5 games in the first round the very next year. Kobe could only compliment elite teammates well, he could never take average or barely above average players to the next level, and that's why he will never truly be an all-time great. He will be ranked correctly years after he retires and people reanalyze his career.

[Odinn]

Let me just end this thread for you guys...

last time I checked...5>4.

I'll let you figure out the rest.

/thread.
Welcome to the Ring Math 101.

Kobe >>> Shaq, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Moses, Dr. J etc.
EASILY!

Kobe = Magic

If he gets the 6th ring; Kobe will be greater than anyone not named Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell.

If Kobe gets the 7th ring; G.O.A.T.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

duncan played about 3-4 years when the four position was about as stacked as it's ever been with talent....especially the western conference teams that he played against night in and night out.....he still won rings....still made all nba offensive and defensive


I'm assuming that people who read this thread are already aware of certain things..

So what? What does that have to do with Kobe vs Duncan? Kobe gets compared to prime Shaq and Jordan while Duncan only has to best Garnett with no help, Dirk, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley? :oldlol:

Thats like saying the 2nd best looking blonde can't be better than the best looking asian because the top looking blonde is the best looking girl in the school.

Or the second best tasting ice cream cant taste better than the best tasting vegetable..

Kobe isn't a power forward. Its completely irrelevant whether or not Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

Its moronic.

[The Choken One]

If you'd like to disregard the most important argument....ok I guess? I mean shit... who gives a fhck if you win right? Trolololol.

Lets see...he's the only player that's even in the discussion to challenge Jordan for GOAT. Jordan is better, I'm not arguing that, but Kobe is arguably the second best player to play the game.

Please take notice of arguably before shitting bricks. Nonetheless... Kobe>Duncan.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Welcome to the Ring Math 101.

Kobe >>> Shaq, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Moses, Dr. J etc.
EASILY!

Kobe = Magic

If he gets the 6th ring; Kobe will be greater than anyone not named Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell.

If Kobe gets the 7th ring; G.O.A.T.

:oldlol: :oldlol:
mad

[get these NETS]

yao's foot......have you ever had a "jerry rice" vs "jim brown" sports discussion?

[Odinn]

mad


Close and Kobe still has a chance to surpass Duncan but now, still Duncan > Kobe.

http://d1202.hizliresim.com/u/f/2pkp5.jpg


As for being best player in the L;
1998-99; Duncan was the best. Kobe wasn't top5.
1999-00; Duncan was the 2nd. Kobe wasn't top 5.
2000-01; Duncan was top3. Kobe was top3.
2001-02; Duncan was top2(Shaq or Duncan). Kobe was top5.
2002-03; Duncan was the best. Kobe was top5.
2003-04; Duncan was the 2nd. Kobe was top5.
2004-05; Duncan was the best. Kobe wasn't top5.
2005-06; Duncan was top5. Kobe was the best.
2006-07; Duncan was top2. Kobe was top2. (po; Duncan - rs; Kobe)
2007-08; Duncan was top5. Kobe was the best.
2008-09; Duncan wasn't top5. Kobe was top3(2nd or 3rd, depends on Wade).
2009-10; Duncan wasn't top5. Kobe was top3(depends on Wade&Durant).
2010-11; Both of them wasn't top 5.

How can Kobe have the edge on longevity "right now"?
Duncan was All-NBA and All-Defensive in his first 13 seasons and 2011/12 season is Kobe's 14th season as starter.

As for peak and prime; Duncan > Kobe. As for accomplishments/accolades; Duncan > Kobe. If Kobe gains the edge on longevity, still it'd remain debatable.

5>4 claim one of the most pathetic claims about this debate. That's why I stated the Ring Math. If you want to talk, talk about my other posts in this thread.

[Bob Cousy]

Like I stated earlier Duncan is about a spot of ahead of him but this is just temporary and we all know this.

Duncan is in his twilight years and is approaching "over the hill" in a few seasons.

Kobe is still in his prime at 33 freaking years old and has 2-3 more years left of high level play.

Kobe will most likely eclipse Jordan in points all time and then there will be no more argument for Duncan > Kobe.

We can all agree on this right ?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

yao's foot......have you ever had a "jerry rice" vs "jim brown" sports discussion?

no

and I wouldnt use Barry Sanders as proof as one is better than the other. Barry Sanders has nothing to do with that comparison.

[Odinn]

Like I stated earlier Duncan is about a spot of ahead of him but this is just temporary and we all know this.

Duncan is in his twilight years and is approaching "over the hill" in a few seasons.

Kobe is still in his prime at 33 freaking years old and has 2-3 more years left of high level play.

Kobe will most likely eclipse Jordan in points all time and then there will be no more argument for Duncan > Kobe.

We can all agree on this right ?
Kareem scored 20680 more points than Magic and there is still argument for Magic > Kareem.
Karl Malone scored almost 15k more points than Duncan and Duncan is the goat PF.

So; nope.

[rmt]

So playing with all defensive players has no impact on the success of the team?

To be technical, he had David Robinson who was no slouch.

Hey, that's why I put "to be technical." TD had no all-nba, no all-defensive, no all-star team mate in 99 but yes DRob was no slouch (15.6/9.9) - he just wasn't MVP, all-nba, all-defensive (Mourning/Mutombo were), all-star material that year - certainly not of the quality of Shaq or Gasol in the years Kobe won.


Lets see...he's the only player that's even in the discussion to challenge Jordan for GOAT. Jordan is better, I'm not arguing that, but Kobe is arguably the second best player to play the game.

Please take notice of arguably before shitting bricks. Nonetheless... Kobe>Duncan.

There's not a player in the recognized top 10 that I wouldn't take over Kobe. LOL at Kobe being the 2nd best player to play the game.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

5>4 claim one of the most pathetic claims about this debate. That's why I stated the Ring Math. If you want to talk, talk about my other posts in this thread.

You do realize that Kobe is going to surpass Duncan using your own methodology right?

Its Duncan 7, Kobe 6 and Duncan wont be better than Kobe from here on out

congrats to prime Duncan on being better than young Kobe :confusedshrug:

[get these NETS]

no

and I wouldnt use Barry Sanders as proof as one is better than the other. Barry Sanders has nothing to do with that comparison.


person would compare and examine how thoroughly each man dominated his position

there's argument on both sides

Brown....40 years AFTER he retired is still the measuring stick for running backs

Rice has a similar stature at his position


relating to this thread..... look at JB as Tim Duncan

Kobe isn't Jerry Rice is what I'm saying

[Deuce Bigalow]

5>4 claim one of the most pathetic claims about this debate. That's why I stated the Ring Math. If you want to talk, talk about my other posts in this thread.
"Duncan has a better peak/prime"

Well based on what?
Duncan is better at rebounding and blocking, all the big-man stuff because that is what he is
Kobe is better at perimeter things like scoring and passing, like a shooting guard should

"Duncan is more accomplished/more accoldades"

MVPs yes 2>1
Finals MVPs yes 3>2 although Kobe was still great in the '01and '02 playoffs

championships
kobe 5
duncan 4

allstar teams
kobe 14
duncan 13

all nba teams
both tied at 13, kobe will make it this year but Duncan is a maybe

first teams
both tied at 9, kobe might make it this year, duncan definitely will not

scoring titles
kobe 2, maybe 3 after this season
duncan 0

[Odinn]

You do realize that Kobe is going to surpass Duncan using your own methodology right?

Its Duncan 7, Kobe 6 and Duncan wont be better than Kobe from here on out

congrats to prime Duncan on being better than young Kobe :confusedshrug:
Congrats to prime Kobe on being better than old Duncan. :confusedshrug:

Also bolded logic fails. I stated their position as best player in the L. Not just by both of them. When you look your way; Magic>Kareem without a doubt...:wtf:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

person would compare and examine how thoroughly each man dominated his position

there's argument on both sides

Brown....40 years AFTER he retired is still the measuring stick for running backs

Rice has a similar stature at his position


relating to this thread..... look at JB as Tim Duncan

Kobe isn't Jerry Rice is what I'm saying

:wtf:

[Johnni Gade]

People tend to forget what the older players were capable of

[Odinn]

"Duncan has a better peak/prime"

Well based on what?
Duncan is better at rebounding and blocking, all the big-man stuff because that is what he is
Kobe is better at perimeter things like scoring and passing, like a shooting guard should
Kobe never had a playoff run like Duncan's 2003 run. Also I guess you'd like to see this;
http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/



"Duncan is more accomplished/more accoldades"

MVPs yes 2>1
Finals MVPs yes 3>2 although Kobe was still great in the '01and '02 playoffs

championships
kobe 5
duncan 4

allstar teams
kobe 14
duncan 13

all nba teams
both tied at 13, kobe will make it this year but Duncan is a maybe

first teams
both tied at 9

scoring titles
kobe 2, maybe 3 after this season
duncan 0
Keep your obvious agenda away. Scoring titles to look better Kobe but leaving out team records?

[Bob Cousy]

Kareem scored 20680 more points than Magic and there is still argument for Magic > Kareem.
Karl Malone scored almost 15k more points than Duncan and Duncan is the goat PF.

So; nope.Kobe has 5 rings , Duncan 4, so the comparison is not even in the same realm as Malone vs Duncan.

even then, Duncan is still not even considered the clear cut GOAT PF:lol

imagine that huh.:confusedshrug:

EDIT : why am I even arguing this ? any non-casual fan knows that Kobe will easily surpass Duncan, yes with ease.

Kobe is to busy trying to make Jordan comparisons debatable, who the hell is Duncan ?

[guy]

duncan played about 3-4 years when the four position was about as stacked as it's ever been with talent....especially the western conference teams that he played against night in and night out.....he still won rings....still made all nba offensive and defensive


I'm assuming that people who read this thread are already aware of certain things..

I'm talking about all-time. Kobe will never be the greatest SG ever because of Jordan. To say Duncan is better cause he's the greatest PF ever while Kobe is the greatest SG ever is a dumb argument because that point is irrelevant due to Michael Jordan being clearly greater then any PF thats ever played.

[unbreakable]

Timmy-- the only player in NBA history to be selected both All-NBA and All-Defensive Teams during each of his first 13 seasons.

:bowdown:

[Odinn]

Kobe has 5 rings , Duncan 4, so the comparison is not even in the same realm as Malone vs Duncan.

even then, Duncan is still not even considered the clear cut GOAT PF:lol

imagine that huh.:confusedshrug:

EDIT : why am I even arguing this ? any non-casual fan knows that Kobe will easily surpass Duncan, yes with ease.

Kobe is to busy trying to make Jordan comparisons debatable, who the hell is Duncan ?
Already got beaten about ring stiations by Kareem-Magic example...:facepalm

[SayTownRy]

Duncan is still not even considered the clear cut GOAT PF:lol

by a select handful of fringe haters. not by anyone who's opinion counts for anything though.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

This "Duncan did more with less" shit is hilarious. It isn't about the names on the paper. Duncan didn't play with a bunch of all stars (neither did Kobe) but he always had teammates who stepped up and contributed in a series or game.

So it's Kobe's fault he ended up on the Lakers the same time as Shaq. I swear he's like the only guy who gets punished for winning with good teams.

[Disaprine]

because his accomplishments are better than kobes.

[The Iron Fist]

Duncan was a better franchise player, pure and simple. He did more with way less than what Kobe had. He never complained, he never berated his teammates, and he still had the will and desire to win and compete (Kobe fans will blame Kobe's dickhead personality on his unbelievable desire to win, but in reality he's just a selfish douche and frankly a poor teammate).

Most of all, Duncan was never the 2nd best player on his team in his prime, Kobe was. Duncan was the more efficient scorer and just made a much bigger impact on the floor. ESPN and the media absolutely salivate over wing players, that's why guys like Iverson, Kobe, McGrady, and Vince Carter were so overrated in their primes in this era. Efficient scoring >> Inefficient volume scoring everyday of the week. That's why guys like Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Lebron, who consistently were in the top 3-5 in PER in their primes were always on 50+ winning teams no matter how bad their teammates were.

Kobe without any all-stars managed to miss the playoffs, blow a 3-1 lead in the first round and flame out, and then get whooped in 5 games in the first round the very next year. Kobe could only compliment elite teammates well, he could never take average or barely above average players to the next level, and that's why he will never truly be an all-time great. He will be ranked correctly years after he retires and people reanalyze his career.how many all defensive players did Kobe have as team mates?
Also, when you say he he was the second best player on his team, you act like it was by a considerable margin if its even true at all. Lol per.

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem scored 20680 more points than Magic and there is still argument for Magic > Kareem.
.
Only by idiots. In one instance, they'll say "substance over style." Then when it comes to Cap and Magic, " Magic was better".

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Has Duncan ever had a worse 2nd best teammate on his team than Kobe?

Fisher/Rice/Horry/Walton/injured Bynum

vs

Tony Parker?

[The Iron Fist]

Hey, that's why I put "to be technical." TD had no all-nba, no all-defensive, no all-star team mate in 99 but yes DRob was no slouch (15.6/9.9) - he just wasn't MVP, all-nba, all-defensive (Mourning/Mutombo were), all-star material that year - certainly not of the quality of Shaq or Gasol in the years Kobe won.



There's not a player in the recognized top 10 that I wouldn't take over Kobe. LOL at Kobe being the 2nd best player to play the game.
Does an award make a difference when talking about a player of Robinson's caliber?
No, because he's still David Robinson who was a force at his position. This whole notion that because someone has "all star" next to their name somehow makes him scores better than someone who may have gotten overlooked for one reason or another is just silly. You,re here acting like Robinson at that time was the third man off the bench.

[Legends66NBA7]

This "Duncan did more with less" shit is hilarious. It isn't about the names on the paper. Duncan didn't play with a bunch of all stars (neither did Kobe) but he always had teammates who stepped up and contributed in a series or game.

So it's Kobe's fault he ended up on the Lakers the same time as Shaq. I swear he's like the only guy who gets punished for winning with good teams.

Which series are you talking about, exactly ?

Just curious...

[The Iron Fist]

Congrats to prime Kobe on being better than old Duncan. :confusedshrug:

Also bolded logic fails. I stated their position as best player in the L. Not just by both of them. When you look your way; Magic>Kareem without a doubt...:wtf:
Lol' Kobe was in the leagues years before Tim, but its Duncan that's old.

[Heavincent]

Kobe on the other-hand has yet to win a ring without the most talented big men in the league playing beside him.


:oldlol: Good one.

[StateOfMind12]

This "Duncan did more with less" shit is hilarious. It isn't about the names on the paper. Duncan didn't play with a bunch of all stars (neither did Kobe) but he always had teammates who stepped up and contributed in a series or game.

So it's Kobe's fault he ended up on the Lakers the same time as Shaq. I swear he's like the only guy who gets punished for winning with good teams.
This is true while Kobe may have played with more big named players than Duncan did. Duncan probably played with more clutch players than Kobe did.

Would you rather have a group of players who are more talented but don't step up frequently in the clutch, or would you rather have a group of players who aren't as talented but frequently step up in the clutch? I think most would roll with the latter.

It is funny because for the same reasons why some people take Duncan over Kobe are the same reasons why people should also take Duncan over Shaq, yet it is incredibly uncommon to find Duncan above Shaq in an all-time list. It is pretty hypocritical if you think about it.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Which series are you talking about, exactly ?

Just curious...

Various ones.

Take his 2003 run for instance:

In the first round in games 2, 3, 5 and 6 (The games they won), he had at least 1 teammate score at least 20 points in each game, sometimes outscoring him.

Or even in the series against the Lakers having Bowen drop 27 in game 2 than having Parker drop 27 in the closeout game 6.

Granted, it wasn't the same guy doing this on an every game basis, but he always had someone step up when needed. They didn't have the name Shaquille O'Neal, but Spurs teams have never been built around star power anyway. They have Duncan as the centerpiece with quality players around him that perform exactly what they're needed to do.

People underrate the value and effectiveness of good teamwork.

[DMAVS41]

Various ones.

Take his 2003 run for instance:

In the first round in games 2, 3, 5 and 6 (The games they won), he had at least 1 teammate score at least 20 points in each game, sometimes outscoring him.

Or even in the series against the Lakers having Bowen drop 27 in game 2 than having Parker drop 27 in the closeout game 6.

Granted, it wasn't the same guy doing this on an every game basis, but he always had someone step up when needed. They didn't have the name Shaquille O'Neal, but Spurs teams have never been built around star power anyway. They have Duncan as the centerpiece with quality players around him that perform exactly what they're needed to do.

People underrate the value and effectiveness of good teamwork.

True, but you can't ignore that Duncan allows his teammates to flourish in ways Kobe doesn't.

He doesn't dominate the ball. He demands a double on the low block. He is a defensive force that can dominate a game without scoring.

Of course his teams have had better team work. Duncan allows for that to happen. He never froze teammates out to make a point. He never cared more about his stats than winning. Tim has been a true winner and teammate throughout his career. You don't hear about all the garbage that Kobe has pulled over the years because Duncan hasn't done that.

I just find it funny that people think the "supporting cast" isn't at all impacted by the best player on the team. I agree that at times Duncan has had more help than what is on paper, but I don't think that is removed from Duncan. I think Duncan is at the root of most of that because of what type of player and leader he is.

Something to think about at the very least...

[Pointguard]

if being the"ultimate team player" is such a blessing, why has it not gotten him more than four rings?

Because it doesn't really matter. Kobe style of play has gotten him more titles than any of his era. There's Kobe and then everyone else behind.

The talent deviation was way too vast. As the best player on his team Duncan has twice as many rings as Kobe. If Duncan had Shaq or somebody as good as himself the comparison would be a joke. Its amazing that Kobe teamed up with most dominant player in the game and lost like 5 years? Give two years to Kobe's youth so they go 50/50 (3years of winning it all and equal to not winning it all). To me that's a fail. You are supposed to win when you have the best inside player and the best perimeter player and no other team has top talent paired up. Duncan won as much as they did together over that periord. That's gangsta.

[DMAVS41]

The talent deviation was way too vast. As the best player on his team Duncan has twice as many rings as Kobe. If Duncan had Shaq or somebody as good as himself the comparison would be a joke. Its amazing that Kobe teamed up with most dominant player in the game and lost like 5 years? Give two years to Kobe's youth so they go 50/50 (3years of winning it all and equal to not winning it all). To me that's a fail. You are supposed to win when you have the best inside player and the best perimeter player and no other team has top talent paired up. Duncan won as much as they did together over that periord. That's gangsta.

Yea, its kind of hard to envision a scenario where Duncan played with the best player in the league (other than himself) for 6 years (removing Kobe's first 2 years) and only ends up with 3 rings.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

True, but you can't ignore that Duncan allows his teammates to flourish in ways Kobe doesn't.

Of course. They play different positions


He doesn't dominate the ball. He demands a double on the low block. He is a defensive force that can dominate a game without scoring.

Again, because he and Kobe play different positions. A guard's job is to score (as well as facilitate when need be). That's what Kobe does best. After all, you have to score more points than your opponent to win so I don't see how Kobe being spectacular at what he is supposed to do, and Duncan being spectacular at what he's supposed to do make Duncan better?


Of course his teams have had better team work. Duncan allows for that to happen.

So having one of the greatest coaches in Popovich means nothing I guess. You always bring up Kobe having Phil so why doesn't it apply to Duncan as well?


He never froze teammates out to make a point. He never cared more about his stats than winning. Tim has been a true winner and teammate throughout his career. You don't hear about all the garbage that Kobe has pulled over the years because Duncan hasn't done that.

Ok so Duncan is a nicer guy than Kobe. What does this have to do with the success they've had in comparison to each other?


I just find it funny that people think the "supporting cast" isn't at all impacted by the best player on the team. I agree that at times Duncan has had more help than what is on paper, but I don't think that is removed from Duncan. I think Duncan is at the root of most of that because of what type of player and leader he is.

Something to think about at the very least...

It's funny because you're doing that to Kobe. You think the same doesn't apply to Kobe? You think Kobe didn't make guys like Gasol, Ariza, Farmar, Bynum, etc around him better? Lots of those guys on those "stacked" 2 peat teams had their best years when playing with Kobe. The Lakers won 5 titles from 2000-2010. Which star player was the common denominator on all of those teams? Kobe was. It's no coincidence.

[pauk]

Why? This is why:

Duncan: 4 NBA championships as THE MAN + 2 MVPs

Kobe: 2 NBA championships as THE MAN + 1 MVP

[Round Mound]

Better Player? Yes.

What the Media and the Young Fans think is not even considered for Real NBA Watchers. :facepalm

Duncan Had More Impact in the Game Defensively and Rebounding. He could also Score Efficiently over 50% FG

[DMAVS41]

Of course. They play different positions



Again, because he and Kobe play different positions. A guard's job is to score (as well as facilitate when need be). That's what Kobe does best. After all, you have to score more points than your opponent to win so I don't see how Kobe being spectacular at what he is supposed to do, and Duncan being spectacular at what he's supposed to do make Duncan better?



So having one of the greatest coaches in Popovich means nothing I guess. You always bring up Kobe having Phil so why doesn't it apply to Duncan as well?



Ok so Duncan is a nicer guy than Kobe. What does this have to do with the success they've had in comparison to each other?



It's funny because you're doing that to Kobe. You think the same doesn't apply to Kobe? You think Kobe didn't make guys like Gasol, Ariza, Farmar, Bynum, etc around him better? Lots of those guys on those "stacked" 2 peat teams had their best years when playing with Kobe. The Lakers won 5 titles from 2000-2010. Which star player was the common denominator on all of those teams? Kobe was. It's no coincidence.

Yea....they play different positions. And the place Duncan holds on the court has more inherent value than a wing player in most cases. And this is one of those cases.

Did I ever say Kobe didn't make his teammates better? Nope, but he didn't do it to the extent that Duncan did. You can't use the position excuse. This is about which player impacts the game in a greater way. And what Duncan provides is simply more valuable than what Kobe has provided.

I didn't mention coaching in this case because its pretty even. They have both played the majority of their careers with two of the best coaches ever. LOL at thinking Duncan has had an edge in coaching....and if you don't think that...why even bring up coaching?

Duncan being a better leader and teammate actually does impact success. LOL if you can't grasp that.

Come up with some real reasons....position is simply an excuse. You are basically agreeing that Duncan was better and more valuable...by pulling the position excuse. Its basically you saying:

"of course Duncan was better....he plays pf/c"....the pf/c part of that statement is irrelevant in terms of which player has the biggest impact.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Yea....they play different positions. And the place Duncan holds on the court has more inherent value than a wing player in most cases. And this is one of those cases.

Again, there's why there's something called context. Scoring is just as important as defending/rebounding. I'm saying it's stupid to bring up things like rebounding and defending the paint when Duncan plays the position who's responsibilty it is to do that. It's like me bringing up Kobe having better ball handling and shooting skills.


Did I ever say Kobe didn't make his teammates better? Nope, but he didn't do it to the extent that Duncan did. You can't use the position excuse. This is about which player impacts the game in a greater way. And what Duncan provides is simply more valuable than what Kobe has provided.

He's won 4 titles and been in 6 finals in the past decade. It seems like he knows how to make his teammates better to me.


I didn't mention coaching in this case because its pretty even. They have both played the majority of their careers with two of the best coaches ever. LOL at thinking Duncan has had an edge in coaching....and if you don't think that...why even bring up coaching?

I brought up Pop because you said that Duncan allows his teammates to do certain things when it is Pops system (although centered around Duncan for a time being) that utilizes everyone to their strengths.


Duncan being a better leader and teammate actually does impact success. LOL if you can't grasp that.

Again, Kobe's had equal if not more team success than Duncan so this is irrelevant.


Come up with some real reasons....position is simply an excuse. You are basically agreeing that Duncan was better and more valuable...by pulling the position excuse. Its basically you saying:

"of course Duncan was better....he plays pf/c"....the pf/c part of that statement is irrelevant in terms of which player has the biggest impact.

It's not an excuse :confusedshrug: It's common sense. When comparing players of two different positions and responsibilities it's pointless to compare raw skills. Of course Duncan will be a better rebounder than Kobe just like Kobe will be a better shooter than Duncan. :confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

lol, he is not.

[rmt]

Does an award make a difference when talking about a player of Robinson's caliber?
No, because he's still David Robinson who was a force at his position. This whole notion that because someone has "all star" next to their name somehow makes him scores better than someone who may have gotten overlooked for one reason or another is just silly. You,re here acting like Robinson at that time was the third man off the bench.

DRob was the 2nd option on the 99 team averaging 15.6/9.9 in the playoffs. You're the one who has DRob as a "force" when he was not all-nba, all-defensive, all-star level in 99.


This is true while Kobe may have played with more big named players than Duncan did. Duncan probably played with more clutch players than Kobe did.

Would you rather have a group of players who are more talented but don't step up frequently in the clutch, or would you rather have a group of players who aren't as talented but frequently step up in the clutch? I think most would roll with the latter.

You don't think Fisher and Horry are clutch? You don't think Artest came up big in game 7 vs BOS. "Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team." Kobe's the one who's not particularly clutch in NBA Finals.

I'll take Shaq in his prime over any team mate TD has ever had. What does clutch matter when we're talking about MDE. I'd also take Gasol over TP, SJax or Manu in 03.


So having one of the greatest coaches in Popovich means nothing I guess. You always bring up Kobe having Phil so why doesn't it apply to Duncan as well?

It's funny because you're doing that to Kobe. You think the same doesn't apply to Kobe? You think Kobe didn't make guys like Gasol, Ariza, Farmar, Bynum, etc around him better? Lots of those guys on those "stacked" 2 peat teams had their best years when playing with Kobe. The Lakers won 5 titles from 2000-2010. Which star player was the common denominator on all of those teams? Kobe was. It's no coincidence.

Popovich was not one of the greatest coaches in 98-99. He had coached a grand total of 146 NBA games (73-73) going into the 98-99 season. Compare this to Phil Jackson, who already won 6 rings when he joined LA.

I think that Bynum would be much farther along in his development not playing with Kobe. Who wants to play with "it all starts with me, bigs feed off me, not going to change." No wonder his team mates look so apathetic.

[DMAVS41]

Again, there's why there's something called context. Scoring is just as important as defending/rebounding. I'm saying it's stupid to bring up things like rebounding and defending the paint when Duncan plays the position who's responsibilty it is to do that. It's like me bringing up Kobe having better ball handling and shooting skills.



He's won 4 titles and been in 6 finals in the past decade. It seems like he knows how to make his teammates better to me.



I brought up Pop because you said that Duncan allows his teammates to do certain things when it is Pops system (although centered around Duncan for a time being) that utilizes everyone to their strengths.



Again, Kobe's had equal if not more team success than Duncan so this is irrelevant.



It's not an excuse :confusedshrug: It's common sense. When comparing players of two different positions and responsibilities it's pointless to compare raw skills. Of course Duncan will be a better rebounder than Kobe just like Kobe will be a better shooter than Duncan. :confusedshrug:

I'm not comparing raw skills at all. I'm comparing impact. Kobe's ball handling / shooting doesn't translate into a bigger impact overall.

LOL at ignoring the impact of Duncan's superior defense and rebounding because of position.

You see, I rank Kobe over KG because Kobe's impact was greater. Its not about skill set or something. The area in which a guard like Kobe would have an edge over a pf/c is clutch situations. Duncan has been extremely clutch on both sides of the ball throughout this career. So that edge is marginal at best....honestly I don't know which player I'd rather have on my team with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game. Probably Duncan actually.

Stop inferring that Pop made Duncan. Its as silly as someone saying Phil made Kobe.

And stop pretending like Duncan has had the same amount of help as Kobe. Just factually not true. Sorry...nothing you say or do can ever change that.
You are using Duncan's ability to play better team ball against him. You put Kobe on a lot of those Spurs teams are they would not reach the same levels Duncan led them to. The idea of Kobe winning the title with the kind of help that Duncan had in 03 is simply laughable. Would never happen....

The arguments for Kobe will ultimately be longevity...and if Kobe continues to play this well late in his career...then they will be good arguments. But comparing their 10 year primes or whatever just favors Duncan in my opinion.

You keep rattling off Kobe has won 5 titles and been to the finals 7 times and that he knows how to play team ball. Well, I never disputed that.....but you also must understand that 3 of those titles and 4 of those finals appearances he was the 2nd best player on his team and playing with one of the 6 or so best players of all time at his absolute peak. LOL at ignoring that.

Duncan for his career in playoffs:

23/12/3 on 55% TS

Kobe for his career in playoffs:

25/5/5 on 54% TS

You'll want to cut off years of Kobe's career and ignore Duncan's huge advantage on defense and being a better teammate and doing more with less....but the facts are what the facts are.

[The Iron Fist]

DRob was the 2nd option on the 99 team averaging 15.6/9.9 in the playoffs. You're the one who has DRob as a "force" when he was not all-nba, all-defensive, all-star level in 99.



You don't think Fisher and Horry are clutch? You don't think Artest came up big in game 7 vs BOS. "Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team." Kobe's the one who's not particularly clutch in NBA Finals.

I'll take Shaq in his prime over any team mate TD has ever had. What does clutch matter when we're talking about MDE. I'd also take Gasol over TP, SJax or Manu in 03.



Popovich was not one of the greatest coaches in 98-99. He had coached a grand total of 146 NBA games (73-73) going into the 98-99 season. Compare this to Phil Jackson, who already won 6 rings when he joined LA.

I think that Bynum would be much farther along in his development not playing with Kobe. Who wants to play with "it all starts with me, bigs feed off me, not going to change." No wonder his team mates look so apathetic.
So going 17 and 10 is bum work now? When Kobe has a teammate with 17 and 10, he's carried. Anyone else and they " just a second option who got 17 and 10. Lol

[The Iron Fist]

The talent deviation was way too vast. As the best player on his team Duncan has twice as many rings as Kobe. If Duncan had Shaq or somebody as good as himself the comparison would be a joke. Its amazing that Kobe teamed up with most dominant player in the game and lost like 5 years? Give two years to Kobe's youth so they go 50/50 (3years of winning it all and equal to not winning it all). To me that's a fail. You are supposed to win when you have the best inside player and the best perimeter player and no other team has top talent paired up. Duncan won as much as they did together over that periord. That's gangsta.
Yea, two on five is better than five on five. :roll: A team with Five solid guys is better than two great players and everyone else. Ino other place but here is a three peat a fail. Lol

[DMAVS41]

Yea, two on five is better than five on five. :roll: A team with Five solid guys is better than two great players and everyone else. Ino other place but here is a three peat a fail. Lol

Stop acting like the Lakers were only shaq and kobe. Somehow young parker/manu, and stephen jackson and some other role players is this great unit....but what the lakers had was nothing.

Those Lakers teams had solid role players that did their jobs...and did them very well. Along with making huge play after huge play just like Fisher and Horry did.

That is the difference. Duncan could have used a guy like Paul Pierce or a healthy T-Mac....Its very hard to win without that consistent 2nd star player. Its only been done a few times in the last 30 years for a reason.

[rmt]

So going 17 and 10 is bum work now? When Kobe has a teammate with 17 and 10, he's carried. Anyone else and they " just a second option who got 17 and 10. Lol

Where did you get 17 and 10 from? DRob's 15.6/9.9/2.5 on 48.3%FG is definitely worse than Gasol's 18.3/10.9/2.5 on 58%FG and 19.6/11.1/3.5 on 53.9%FG

[tpols]

Love how people always bring up Duncan's 'never missing the playoffs.. 10 year 50 game win streak etc.' when the team has been doing that with him having a very small impact nowadays and for the past few years. They win because they have the ideal basketball system in place. They play fundamental team basketball. Duncan was great, but he was the ultimate 'fundamentals' guy.. and thats why he was the perfect fit for SA.

[sagr32]

Once rankings get into the top 20 or so it is all very subjective. But what I do find interesting is how no one minds that Duncan never repeated or even made it back to the finals after winning it.

[DMAVS41]

Love how people always bring up Duncan's 'never missing the playoffs.. 10 year 50 game win streak etc.' when the team has been doing that with him having a very small impact nowadays and for the past few years. They win because they have the ideal basketball system in place. They play fundamental team basketball. Duncan was great, but he was the ultimate 'fundamentals' guy.. and thats why he was the perfect fit for SA.

And you think he would somehow be a lesser player playing for the likes of Phil Jackson and with a top 6 player of all time at his peak for 8 years?

Or with the Lakers rosters of since 08?

Just don't see it at all.

[PTB Fan]

Because of better defense, bigger impact, making his team mates better, being a better leader, bigger winner and overall more successful player.

[RonySeikalyFTL]

Once rankings get into the top 20 or so it is all very subjective. But what I do find interesting is how no one minds that Duncan never repeated or even made it back to the finals after winning it.

So the guy wins 4 rings with an unpopular small market team and we're supposed to get all up in arms because he never did it twice in a row? Come on now.
Looking at the roster of every single team Duncan has played on, one could make the argument that not one of those teams ever underachieved. His two main side kicks for the vast majority of his career are both second round draft picks. You give this guy 11 other players that are capable of playing in the NBA, he will turn them into winners. Meanwhile Kobe has consistently played with teams that end up looking better on paper than they do on the court. Is there anyone on here that legitimately believes Kobe elevates his teammates' level of play anywhere near the extent that Duncan does? If at all?

[Jasper]

Re: Why is Duncan above Kobe in the all-time list?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Stein's ranking this week - spur are in 2nd place without Ginobli.

Lakers are ranked in the teens with Kobe's full roster of Fisher , Pau and bynum (4 super stars)
last buzzer beater : Kobe takes out Rapters :bowdown: :rolleyes: :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Re: Why is Duncan above Kobe in the all-time list?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Stein's ranking this week - spur are in 2nd place without Ginobli.

Lakers are ranked in the teens with Kobe's full roster of Fisher , Pau and bynum (4 super stars)
last buzzer beater : Kobe takes out Rapters :bowdown: :rolleyes: :bowdown:
last year Duncan averaged 13/9 and the Spurs won 61 games
Bbbbbut but but the championship years he did it all by himself

[rmt]

last year Duncan averaged 13/9 and the Spurs won 61 games
Bbbbbut but but the championship years he did it all by himself

I guess the concept of doing whatever it takes to win has passed you by. Yes, he carried them when TP and Manu were newbies and he allowed them to grow and flourish and is now reaping the rewards of that. He doesn't care that he was getting 13/9 (or 13.9/8.4 in 27 mins this year) as long as they win.

OTOH, has any player ever grown and flourished under Kobe? Would he allow any player to steal the spotlight from him? After Bynum's torrid start, Kobe went on his shooting rampage. He's going after the scoring title getting 29.3 pts on 44%FG in twice the shot attempts that Bynum gets (16.4 pts on 54.3%FG). Way to have Bynum develop - keep on shooting Kobe.

[Droid101]

last year Duncan averaged 13/9 and the Spurs won 61 games
Bbbbbut but but the championship years he did it all by himself
And, he's having another terrible year this year, yet the Spurs just keep winning!

Guess his supporting cast was better than previously indicated.

Kobe > Duncan

[The Iron Fist]

Where did you get 17 and 10 from? DRob's 15.6/9.9/2.5 on 48.3%FG is definitely worse than Gasol's 18.3/10.9/2.5 on 58%FG and 19.6/11.1/3.5 on 53.9%FG
16 and 10 is that much "worse"? Lol only on I sh is 16 and 10 seen as "worse". That's a terrible choice of words. Gasol was slightly better but not enough to where any can claim he carried Kobe.

[Coffee Black]

16 and 10 is that much "worse"? Lol only on I sh is 16 and 10 seen as "worse". That's a terrible choice of words. Gasol was slightly better but not enough to where any can claim he carried Kobe.

Not to mention Robinson's defense compared to Gasol's.

[Deuce Bigalow]

16 and 10 is that much "worse"? Lol only on I sh is 16 and 10 seen as "worse". That's a terrible choice of words. Gasol was slightly better but not enough to where any can claim he carried Kobe.
Gasol was better, especially 2010 he was a beast
23.5 PPG and 14.5 RPG on 60.7 FG% vs Utah
5 offensive rebounds per game vs Boston

[Allstar24]

He's NOT above Kobe in anyone's all-time list, simple. Even Barkley who is a known Kobe hater puts Kobe above Duncan.

[Heavincent]

He's NOT above Kobe in anyone's all-time list, simple. Even Barkley who is a known Kobe hater puts Kobe above Duncan.

Barkley isn't a Kobe hater. He says Kobe is a top 5 player all-time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He's NOT above Kobe in anyone's all-time list, simple. Even Barkley who is a known Kobe hater puts Kobe above Duncan.
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/432627_o.gif

[rmt]

16 and 10 is that much "worse"? Lol only on I sh is 16 and 10 seen as "worse". That's a terrible choice of words. Gasol was slightly better but not enough to where any can claim he carried Kobe.

I'm sorry that you don't see that 15.6/9.9 on 48.3%FG is worse than 18.3/10.8 on 58%FG. And I didn't say "much", I said "definitely".

[RRR3]

He's NOT above Kobe in anyone's all-time list, simple. Even Barkley who is a known Kobe hater puts Kobe above Duncan.
I didn't realize you spoke for the entire universe

[Legends66NBA7]

He's NOT above Kobe in anyone's all-time list, simple.

I've seen more than enough lists that show Duncan over Kobe.

[RonySeikalyFTL]

I guess the concept of doing whatever it takes to win has passed you by. Yes, he carried them when TP and Manu were newbies and he allowed them to grow and flourish and is now reaping the rewards of that. He doesn't care that he was getting 13/9 (or 13.9/8.4 in 27 mins this year) as long as they win.

OTOH, has any player ever grown and flourished under Kobe? Would he allow any player to steal the spotlight from him? After Bynum's torrid start, Kobe went on his shooting rampage. He's going after the scoring title getting 29.3 pts on 44%FG in twice the shot attempts that Bynum gets (16.4 pts on 54.3%FG). Way to have Bynum develop - keep on shooting Kobe.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Kobe has a mentality that can basically be summed up as "this is my team, this is my show, and if you want to take that from me I will smack you down." Some people think that's cool, they think he's some kind of alpha badass (just look at his latest string of commercials). I see it more as the mentality of a spoiled kid that never learned to share and doesn't quite get the big picture. To each his own I guess.

It really comes down to what you value in a player. If you value character, teamwork, and putting winning above all else, pick Duncan. If you value 81 point games and the attitude described above, pick Kobe.

[StateOfMind12]

For those of you who have Duncan above Kobe in the all-time list, do you also have Duncan above Shaq in the all-time list?

For the reasons why I'm hearing Duncan over Kobe can be used for the same reasons why Duncan should be over Shaq.

I just wanted to ask this before I do make a final case for Kobe over Duncan and make sure some of you guys are not living off of a double standard which it sounds like.

[rodman91]

3 Finals MVP. And it could be 4 actually. He has one of the greatest finals perfomances. Kobe has 2 finals MVP & average to very good performances.

He did more with less. Kobe had prime Shaq and Gasol. Ginobili is probably best player Duncan had. (or out of prime D-Rob.)

He was franchise player from day one.Kobe was 2nd option until Shaq's gone.

He made Spurs contender every year. Never lost in finals.Prime Kobe had couple of weak years.(missed playoffs & first round loss) Also lost 2 time in finals.

2 time MVP. Kobe has one.

Prime to prime Kobe was flashier but Duncan was better.

[unbreakable]

For those of you who have Duncan above Kobe in the all-time list, do you also have Duncan above Shaq in the all-time list?



Duncan is over Kobe and Shaq. His 13 all nba and 13 all defensive teams, along with 3 Finals MVPs, and winning record all put him over Kobe/Shaq.

[The Iron Fist]

I'm sorry that you don't see that 15.6/9.9 on 48.3%FG is worse than 18.3/10.8 on 58%FG. And I didn't say "much", I said "definitely".


Worse is just a terrible choice of words though. You're acting like 16 and 10 is 6 and 2.

Point is, Duncan had a very serviceable Robinson, who just happened to be one of the best players of the 90s, those same 90s that happen to include the year 1999, when the Duncan won his first title.

You're acting like Robinson was Kwame Brown.

[The Iron Fist]

Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Kobe has a mentality that can basically be summed up as "this is my team, this is my show, and if you want to take that from me I will smack you down." Some people think that's cool, they think he's some kind of alpha badass (just look at his latest string of commercials). I see it more as the mentality of a spoiled kid that never learned to share and doesn't quite get the big picture. To each his own I guess.

It really comes down to what you value in a player. If you value character, teamwork, and putting winning above all else, pick Duncan. If you value 81 point games and the attitude described above, pick Kobe.


and that attitude, has given him 5 championship rings, compared to "Do whatever it takes Duncan", who has 4.

On what planet is 4 better than 5?


I value the correct placing of numbers.

[unbreakable]

Worse is just a terrible choice of words though. You're acting like 16 and 10 is 6 and 2.

Point is, Duncan had a very serviceable Robinson, who just happened to be one of the best players of the 90s, those same 90s that happen to include the year 1999, when the Duncan won his first title.

You're acting like Robinson was Kwame Brown.

Robinson was not an all star.. he was a fraction of his former self. Not even close really.

Shaq Pau and Bynum > Robinson.

[DMAVS41]

and that attitude, has given him 5 championship rings, compared to "Do whatever it takes Duncan", who has 4.

On what planet is 4 better than 5?


I value the correct placing of numbers.

1 of those rings was with Kobe being a good, but not elite player...00.

3 of those rings came with Kobe being the 2nd best player on a team.

Please use context. In some cases 4 is more impressive than 5. This is definitely one of those cases.

[The Iron Fist]

1 of those rings was with Kobe being a good, but not elite player...00.

3 of those rings came with Kobe being the 2nd best player on a team.

Please use context. In some cases 4 is more impressive than 5. This is definitely one of those cases.


Context,


Kobes Lakers more often than not, beat Duncans Spurs.

[The Iron Fist]

Robinson was not an all star.. he was a fraction of his former self. Not even close really.

Shaq Pau and Bynum > Robinson.


Does every player have to be an all star to have an impact?

[DMAVS41]

Context,


Kobes Lakers more often than not, beat Duncans Spurs.

Context.

Kobe had more help more often than not. Sometimes significantly more help.

Context.

[Duncan21formvp]

It's common for some reason that Duncan is above Kobe and I don't know why, so explain your cases people.
Because he was better and he also carried an organization that never won anything to 4 titles while Kobe refused to play for an organization that was not known for winning and thus went to one that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles before he came around. Anyone can win titles with an organization like that, not anyone can take a franchise that never won to a title though.

[Da_Realist]

Duncan all day long. But I put more value in who I think is the better player, not necessarily who has the most achievements. I think longevity can be a plus but not when the other person has played a certain amount of time. 3 years is too short, but if a guy plays 10 years and another guy plays 15, I don't really care about longevity if I think the first guy was just flat out better.

Plus it's not exactly fair. Kobe was riding the bench for years while Duncan came in pulling his weight. Robinson was there at first, but Duncan was still the guy teams focused on. Carrying a team takes it's toll, especially with Duncan because he didn't take shortcuts. I think even the biggest Kobe fan will acknowledge he's taken shortcuts his whole career (especially on the defensive end) and even then he has always had strong interior teammates to pick up the pieces (misses). Shaq carried the team for eight years. I know Kobe did his part but he wasn't CARRYING that team. That team didn't ride or die with Kobe. The early 00's Lakers still had a monster in the middle, clutch shooting on the outside, rebounding and defense without Kobe. I'm not saying they would have won without Kobe, but Kobe didn't carry that team. What did the Spurs have without Duncan? Even now, Kobe can miss 25 shots and the Lakers are still in the game because of his two seven foot, long armed teammates. Might as well count Lamar Odom the past few years cause he was damn near seven feet tall -- 6'10" on the perimeter might as well be 7'0" to most guards/small forwards. Must be nice to almost shoot your team out of the game against a below .500 team, have more turnovers than assists, shoot 39%, get burned defensively by some no-name in crunch time but have two guys grab a combined 26 rebounds to keep the team in the game long enough for you to play hero like what just happened against Toronto yesterday. That shit happens...maybe not all the time...but way more than it should. He IS only shooting 44% this year. And that's after starting off at like 48 or 49%.

Duncan never really had the luxury. He has to play hard on both ends or they would lose for the majority of his career. And you can see the toll it's taken on him. I think he and Kobe came in the same year (1997?) but Kobe's fresh as a daisy. Sure, it's due to hard work and conditioning but it's also *NOT CARRYING THE HEAVY LOAD DAY IN AND DAY OUT* like other all world players.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan all day long. But I put more value in who I think is the better player, not necessarily who has the most achievements. I think longevity can be a plus but not when the other person has played a certain amount of time. 3 years is too short, but if a guy plays 10 years and another guy plays 15, I don't really care about longevity if I think the first guy was just flat out better.

Plus it's not exactly fair. Kobe was riding the bench for years while Duncan came in pulling his weight. Robinson was there at first, but Duncan was still the guy teams focused on. Carrying a team takes it's toll, especially with Duncan because he didn't take shortcuts. I think even the biggest Kobe fan will acknowledge he's taken shortcuts his whole career (especially on the defensive end) and even then he has always had strong interior teammates to pick up the pieces (misses). Shaq carried the team for eight years. I know Kobe did his part but he wasn't CARRYING that team. That team didn't ride or die with Kobe. The early 00's Lakers still had a monster in the middle, clutch shooting on the outside, rebounding and defense without Kobe. I'm not saying they would have won without Kobe, but Kobe didn't carry that team. What did the Spurs have without Duncan? Even now, Kobe can miss 25 shots and the Lakers are still in the game because of his two seven foot, long armed teammates. Might as well count Lamar Odom the past few years cause he was damn near seven feet tall -- 6'10" on the perimeter might as well be 7'0" to most guards/small forwards. Must be nice to almost shoot your team out of the game against a below .500 team, have more turnovers than assists, shoot 39%, get burned defensively by some no-name in crunch time but have two guys grab a combined 26 rebounds to keep the team in the game long enough for you to play hero like what just happened against Toronto yesterday. That shit happens...maybe not all the time...but way more than it should. He IS only shooting 44% this year. And that's after starting off at like 48 or 49%.

Duncan never really had the luxury. He has to play hard on both ends or they would lose for the majority of his career. And you can see the toll it's taken on him. I think he and Kobe came in the same year (1997?) but Kobe's fresh as a daisy. Sure, it's due to hard work and conditioning but it's also *NOT CARRYING THE HEAVY LOAD DAY IN AND DAY OUT* like other all world players.


Really good points about longevity. Kobe didn't have to carry his team for his first 8 years. Hell, he had one of the best players ever at his absolute peak doing the carrying night in night out. He didn't play a ton his first 2 years as well.

Can't ignore stuff like that when factoring in longevity.

[Pointguard]

Yea, two on five is better than five on five. :roll: A team with Five solid guys is better than two great players and everyone else. Ino other place but here is a three peat a fail. Lol
Two on five???
Here are the accolades of the supporting cast brought to the team before they got to LA when Kobe and Shaq were there:

Eddie Jones (3X All Star), Nick Van Excel (All Star), Rick Fox (2nd team All Rookie), Elden Cambell (4th in blocks, World Champ), Robert Horry (4X champ, superclutch) and Derrick Fisher, then Glen Rice (All Star and one of the games best shooters), Brian Shaw (2nd team all rook) and AC Green (AllStar 3x time, champ), then Horace Grant(2x champ All Star), Isiah Rider (2nd team All American, 1st team Rookies), Dennis Rodman (2x Champ, 2x DPOY 7x all defensive team, 2x All NBA team, 8 rebound titles, 36 rebound related awards) John Salley (3X champ, defensive Roll player) Ron Harper (all rook 1st team, 3x champ) Gary Payton (8x allstar, DPOY, 9 all defensive teams, 9 all NBA teams) Karl Malone (2x MVP, 14x allstar, 14x all nba team, 4x all defensive team). and Shaq (MDE)

vs.

SA
David Robinson (10xAll Star, DPOY, 8 all defensive teams, 10all NBA teams) Chuck Pearson (Rookie of year) Sean Elliot (2x allstar, 2nd team Rook) Steve Kerr (3x champ, sharp shooter). Bruce Bowen (2nd team all defense) Steve Smith (all rook team, sharp shooter)

then you can throw in Gin and Parker both who games would have suffered elsewhere.
Gin (2X allstar, sixth man of the year) Parker (3X allstar, Rook and 3rd team all american, finals MVP).

LA had waaaaay more vetern support and far greater talented support. LA starting 5 was usually better man for man to the sixth man most of the Shaq Kobe years. Duncan was amazing.

[Bob Cousy]

This thread will be laughable in a few years. Just watch history unfold.

[rmt]

I reall dont see the comparison...

Anyone who actually watches basketball knows kobe is higher all time. Its why 99 out of 100 people off the street know who kobe is and may e 10 out of 100 people on the street know who tim duncan is


Tim won but wasnt nearly as dominant offensively throughoit his career... He had basically 1 season where he averaged
More than his usual 20-22 ppg

And yes i know its not all about offense but kobe is just as accomplished defensively in his career...

But i would bet any amount of money that kobe has more 40 point games in his career than tim even has 30 point games..

And thats sad

Classic example of people on the street who have bought into ESPN/media's Kobe hype and the NBA's attempt to find the next Michael Jordan. Just because 99 out of a 100 people on the street believe it doesn't make it true.

Scoring is not all there is to the game of basketball. Lol at Kobe being as accomplished defensively as Duncan (Kobe's all-defensive 1st teams in the recent years is a joke).

[Bob Cousy]

(Kobe's all-defensive 1st teams in the recent years is a joke).you can call it a joke all you want but there are no asterisks for all-defense awards.

[unbreakable]

Lol at Kobe being as accomplished defensively as Duncan (Kobe's all-defensive 1st teams in the recent years is a joke).


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

seriously. kobe plays d twice a year..whenever they play the heat and he wants to guard lebron for the last 5 minutes of a blowout loss.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Really good points about longevity. Kobe didn't have to carry his team for his first 8 years. Hell, he had one of the best players ever at his absolute peak doing the carrying night in night out. He didn't play a ton his first 2 years as well.

Can't ignore stuff like that when factoring in longevity.

You're right. From 2000-2004 Kobe was just riding the bench. Shaq did everything.

He hasn't had to carry the largest burden on his team from 2005-2012 either.

[madmax]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

seriously. kobe plays d twice a year..whenever they play the heat and he wants to guard lebron for the last 5 minutes of a blowout loss.

:lol :D

[DMAVS41]

You're right. From 2000-2004 Kobe was just riding the bench. Shaq did everything.

He hasn't had to carry the largest burden on his team from 2005-2012 either.

Why does every Kobe fan have to go to the extremes? You really don't think its worth noting that Kobe didn't have to carry a franchise on his own like Duncan did for his first 8 years?

Nobody is saying Shaq did everything, but you can't ignore that Kobe hardly played his rookie year and then had 7 years with Shaq taking a huge burden off of him.

That is half of his career not being the main guy on a team. That matters in a discussion about longevity. Sorry.

[Deuce Bigalow]

surprised no posts of PER and winshares yet :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Two on five???
Here are the accolades of the supporting cast brought to the team before they got to LA when Kobe and Shaq were there:

Eddie Jones (3X All Star), Nick Van Excel (All Star), Rick Fox (2nd team All Rookie), Elden Cambell (4th in blocks, World Champ), Robert Horry (4X champ, superclutch) and Derrick Fisher, then Glen Rice (All Star and one of the games best shooters), Brian Shaw (2nd team all rook) and AC Green (AllStar 3x time, champ), then Horace Grant(2x champ All Star), Isiah Rider (2nd team All American, 1st team Rookies), Dennis Rodman (2x Champ, 2x DPOY 7x all defensive team, 2x All NBA team, 8 rebound titles, 36 rebound related awards) John Salley (3X champ, defensive Roll player) Ron Harper (all rook 1st team, 3x champ) Gary Payton (8x allstar, DPOY, 9 all defensive teams, 9 all NBA teams) Karl Malone (2x MVP, 14x allstar, 14x all nba team, 4x all defensive team). and Shaq (MDE)

vs.

SA
David Robinson (10xAll Star, DPOY, 8 all defensive teams, 10all NBA teams) Chuck Pearson (Rookie of year) Sean Elliot (2x allstar, 2nd team Rook) Steve Kerr (3x champ, sharp shooter). Bruce Bowen (2nd team all defense) Steve Smith (all rook team, sharp shooter)

then you can throw in Gin and Parker both who games would have suffered elsewhere.
Gin (2X allstar, sixth man of the year) Parker (3X allstar, Rook and 3rd team all american, finals MVP).

LA had waaaaay more vetern support and far greater talented support. LA starting 5 was usually better man for man to the sixth man most of the Shaq Kobe years. Duncan was amazing.

:oldlol:

Please list a Kobe title team with a 3rd best player as good as Tony Parker

[TheMarkMadsen]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

seriously. kobe plays d twice a year..whenever they play the heat and he wants to guard lebron for the last 5 minutes of a blowout loss.

Uneducated comment :facepalm

[Coffee Black]

Reading through this thread, I am starting to doubt whether most of the posters really watched the NBA through the years of 1998-2004.

[Kurosawa0]

I love Timmy, but for me he's not.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

[iDefend5]

Reading through this thread, I am starting to doubt whether most of the posters really watched the NBA through the years of 1998-2004.
Explain yourself.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Duncan is simply more impactful on the game itself. People rarely talk about this but it's the nature of the sport. The big man influences the game more.

Offensively Timmy was unstoppable. The variety of post moves plus the face up game, plus the mid range game, plus the passing ability was ridiculous. Then you have the rebounding which was a help on both sides of the floor.

But the major difference is the defense. Tim Duncan was an effective player on D just be stepping on the court. Add to that his shot blocking ability, plus his ability to use his frame as a barrier and you have someone who alters shots at a seriously high rate. This forces the other team to alter their game plan, it turns them into shooters. That's what an elite defensive big does. Then he turns around and gets the rebound.

Unbelievably clutch, a great leader, and you could argue that he did more with less, although you will run into my previous argument that he was the big man, you don't need AS much help when you have an elite big v an elite perimeter player.

The thing I will say is that it is now clear that Kobe will be going at a higher rate, and again that's pretty common when comparing these two types of players.

[Coffee Black]

Explain yourself.

These Kobe not being as good as Duncan because Kobe was carried by Shaq and Duncan carried his team arguments are baseless. Anyone who watched the games back then would remember that starting from the 2001 playoffs Kobe was just as impactful as Shaq. Also, the surrounding talent of the Lakers deteriorated as the years progressed from 2000 ( losing role players to other teams and age, with out replenishment).

The more glaring problem, however, is that Duncan carried the spurs. Duncan was their best player, fundamentally great, a great team player, and performer. But the Spurs franchise ever since Popovich (eventually followed by Buford) have put together some of the best constructed and coached teams. It's like people did not see how well the team played as a unit. It's like that whole concept has escaped their thought. The idea of the 2004 pistons is probably mind blowing. Some teams just play much better as a collective than others, and the Spurs and the Lakers respectively are evidence of this. For example, consider the 2003 Spurs team, and how every player, all the way down to Speedy Claxton and Kevin Willis played so well when they were in the game. All the role players played great too, like showing off his creativity.

[Pointguard]

:oldlol:

Please list a Kobe title team with a 3rd best player as good as Tony Parker
During the Shaq and Kobe years he was rookie one year and like the sixth best player. But the next year he was easily their second best player - so you would be comparing him to Kobe. :lol And not only that, they beat Kobe and Shaq that year.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

During the Shaq and Kobe years he was rookie one year and like the sixth best player. But the next year he was easily their second best player - so you would be comparing him to Kobe. :lol And not only that, they beat Kobe and Shaq that year.

Fisher- Rice- Horry - Odom- Odom

vs

?

[StateOfMind12]

But the major difference is the defense. Tim Duncan was an effective player on D just be stepping on the court. Add to that his shot blocking ability, plus his ability to use his frame as a barrier and you have someone who alters shots at a seriously high rate. This forces the other team to alter their game plan, it turns them into shooters. That's what an elite defensive big does. Then he turns around and gets the rebound.
.
I personally believe that Duncan was always an overrated defender. I never thought that he was worthy of a DPOY like some people stated and I never thought he was some all-time great of a defensive player either. All-time great defensive PF, sure, but in terms of all-time great defensive players? I don't think so.

I also hear claims that Duncan was the greatest defensive player of the 2000s decade which I disagree with as well. I would probably have to roll with Ben Wallace for the answer to that question even though Ben fell off the face of the earth after he left Chicago in mid season of '07-'08.

Was he a great defensive player? Obviously but so was Kobe. I just don't think Duncan was the all-time great defensive player like some people say he was.

I remember in those playoff matchups between the Lakers and the Spurs, Kobe would get a decent amount of points inside the paint area. Isn't the paint the area that Duncan was suppose to cover? The area that Duncan was suppose to intimidate and block all the shots? Yet Kobe was scoring a lot of his points down there in the paint in most of those playoffs series and matchups.

I don't think Duncan's defense is as big of a differential to Kobe's defense as Kobe's scoring or entire offensive package over Duncan's though which was my point.


These Kobe not being as good as Duncan because Kobe was carried by Shaq and Duncan carried his team arguments are baseless. Anyone who watched the games back then would remember that starting from the 2001 playoffs Kobe was just as impactful as Shaq. Also, the surrounding talent of the Lakers deteriorated as the years progressed from 2000 ( losing role players to other teams and age, with out replenishment).

The more glaring problem, however, is that Duncan carried the spurs. Duncan was their best player, fundamentally great, a great team player, and performer. But the Spurs franchise ever since Popovich (eventually followed by Buford) have put together some of the best constructed and coached teams. It's like people did not see how well the team played as a unit. It's like that whole concept has escaped their thought. The idea of the 2004 pistons is probably mind blowing. Some teams just play much better as a collective than others, and the Spurs and the Lakers respectively are evidence of this. For example, consider the 2003 Spurs team, and how every player, all the way down to Speedy Claxton and Kevin Willis played so well when they were in the game. All the role players played great too, like showing off his creativity.
:applause: Repped.

[LockoutOver11]

I personally believe that Duncan was always an overrated defender. I never thought that he was worthy of a DPOY like some people stated and I never thought he was some all-time great of a defensive player either. All-time great defensive PF, sure, but in terms of all-time great defensive players? I don't think so.

I also hear claims that Duncan was the greatest defensive player of the 2000s decade which I disagree with as well. I would probably have to roll with Ben Wallace for the answer to that question even though Ben fell off the face of the earth after he left Chicago in mid season of '07-'08.

Was he a great defensive player? Obviously but so was Kobe. I just don't think Duncan was the all-time great defensive player like some people say he was.

I remember in those playoff matchups between the Lakers and the Spurs, Kobe would get a decent amount of points inside the paint area. Isn't the paint the area that Duncan was suppose to cover? The area that Duncan was suppose to intimidate and block all the shots? Yet Kobe was scoring a lot of his points down there in the paint in most of those playoffs series and matchups.

I don't think Duncan's defense is as big of a differential to Kobe's defense as Kobe's scoring or entire offensive package over Duncan's though which was my point.


:applause: Repped.

.......oh man. ok.

[jbryan1984]

He isn't on my all time list. It sounds funny but Tim Duncan truly is the most over rated-under rated superstar of all time.

[Pointguard]

The more glaring problem, however, is that Duncan carried the spurs. Duncan was their best player, fundamentally great, a great team player, and performer. But the Spurs franchise ever since Popovich (eventually followed by Buford) have put together some of the best constructed and coached teams. It's like people did not see how well the team played as a unit. It's like that whole concept has escaped their thought. The idea of the 2004 pistons is probably mind blowing. Some teams just play much better as a collective than others, and the Spurs and the Lakers respectively are evidence of this. For example, consider the 2003 Spurs team, and how every player, all the way down to Speedy Claxton and Kevin Willis played so well when they were in the game. All the role players played great too, like showing off his creativity.

So now SA has a better coach and organization?

Kobe and Shaq battled over whose team it was. But on top of crazy vetern help LA had, they also had the greatest winning coach as well. Duncan got along with everybody and hyped their game. That's part of the package. Shaq and Kobe, they had issues and it affected team play. That's part of their package. Willis had a very long career and he was very different in SA.

Duncan played better in the playoffs and guys knew he was the rock on the team. He was their consistency and the guy that could erase other guys mistakes. When he stepped his game up the team always seemed lifted. Parker and Gin wouldn't play well with a superstar that holds the ball - both of them tend to get lost here and there. Duncan's claim to fame was that he was a great team player. Strangely enough it was like a passive dominance (I wonder whose going to steal that term). Duncan was at the center but without a strong gravity. The ball moved very well and other guys could step up without worrying about taking the burden - cause TD always had that in order. Duncan was one of the few players that could lead and be in front of you while at the same time push you like he was behind you to paraphrase one of my explayers (Speedy Clax - sobeit, 8th grade).

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

http://d1202.hizliresim.com/u/f/2pkp5.jpg

Reposting Odinn's chart because it's that amazing.

Prime Duncan impacted the game more than Kobe did. Something that hurts Kobe is he NEVER won without an amazing cast. Gasol/Bynum/Odom is still pretty ****ing good even if it isn't as big as GOAT Shaq. Honestly who is the best player Duncan played with? Old David Robinson...? who is easily inferior to prime Gasol. Ginobili? Ok lol.

Kobe won as a sidekick to Shaq who has a case for GOAT Prime. During the post-Shaq years Kobe won ZERO playoff series before he got Gasol who was a top 3 bigman in the league at the time with Howard and Dirk. Not top 3 PF , top three bigman. Duncan had good roleplayers around him while leading teams to championships, but that's what they were. Roleplayers. Not hall of famers. Ginobili could get in based on his international success, but not strictly for what he did in the NBA. Duncan is the epitome of a guy you want to build your team around. Plays great defense, does not have an ego(honestly how many guys of his talent don't have egos?), great team player, and A DOMINANT BIGMAN. Bigmen are always valued higher than guards. Jordan may be better than Kareem, but I'd rather build my team around Kareem. There's a reason noone knocks on the Rockets taking Hakeem over Jordan. They impact the game in a greater way.

Tim Duncan is an underrated playoff performer as well. Guy always took his game to another level when his team needed him. He doesn't have the glamor stats of an 81 point game or anything, but guy knew how to win and when his team needed him.

Tim Duncan won MORE than Kobe did as the best player on his team with vastly inferior supporting casts. That's the difference. Prime Tim Duncan (from 98-07) was just great. He will never be as appreciated as Kobe though because of his "boring game".

[Nevaeh]

and that attitude, has given him 5 championship rings, compared to "Do whatever it takes Duncan", who has 4.

On what planet is 4 better than 5?


I value the correct placing of numbers.

It wasn't "His Team" for 3 of those rings and you know, and that wasn't "His Attitude" back in the day either. Why do you Stans insist on rewriting history so much? Kobe wasn't carrying a team until the 2005 season.

[IamRAMBO24]

I'm going to have to give the edge to Kobe. Even under Shaq, Kobe had the fire to lead; he wanted to be the best on the team with the ball in his hands during the clutch moments.

Duncan was "OK" being a bench player at one point and giving the reigns to Ginoboli and Parker.

Duncan is too much of a passive player to be above Kobe. This is very different from a team player like Chris Paul. Although Chris loved to dish, he only did it because it elevated his game and made him the best on the floor; I've seen Duncan too many times step back from the lime light and let his 2 guards lead the way.

This is prob the reason why it was so hard for the Spurs to win back to back championships.

Duncan never took the reigns and told his disciples to shut the hell up and let him lead the way: one year it is Parker's team and another it's Ginoboli's.

Plus not to mention the 81 points performance makes it the icing on the cake.

Kobe is the 2nd best SG in the league and Duncan, in my opinion (rings aside), did not have the dominance of Barkley, the smarts of Malone, the versatility of Garnett, the productivity of Bob Petitt, etc.

Sure he's the face of the Spurs, but the guy could of been so much more if he had that competitive edge and fought for the title EVERY YEAR instead of taking a year off and getting motivated the next year.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

I'm going to have to give the edge to Kobe. Even under Shaq, Kobe had the fire to lead; he wanted to be the best on the team with the ball in his hands during the clutch moments.

Duncan was "OK" being a bench player at one point and giving the reigns to Ginoboli and Parker.

Duncan is too much of a passive player to be above Kobe. This is very different from a team player like Chris Paul. Although Chris loved to dish, he only did it because it elevated his game and made him the best on the floor; I've seen Duncan too many times step back from the lime light and let his 2 guards lead the way.

This is prob the reason why it was so hard for the Spurs to win back to back championships.

Duncan never took the reigns and told his disciples to shut the hell up and let him lead the way: one year it is Parker's team and another it's Ginoboli's.

Plus not to mention the 81 points performance makes it the icing on the cake.

Kobe is the 2nd best SG in the league and Duncan, in my opinion (rings aside), did not have the dominance of Barkley, the smarts of Malone, the versatility of Garnett, the productivity of Bob Petitt, etc.

Sure he's the face of the Spurs, but the guy could of been so much more if he had that competitive edge and fought for the title EVERY YEAR instead of taking a year off and getting motivated the next year.

Taking a year off? What the ****? Clearly you've only watched the Spurs in the late 00s. During the early and mid 00's Duncan would always have the ball in his hands at the end of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxWccoByTCE

Here is a good example. Duncan makes a great shot, but it gets negated by Fishers famous 0.4 shot. Had Fisher missed that shot there is a strong chance SA wins this series and they would have beat MIN and hada much stronger chance vs the Pistons team that obliterated the Lakers in the Finals. So a 0.4 Fisher shot negated a possible three peat. It has nothing to do with Duncan "taking a year off". Just unfortunate shit like this. Then in2006 another three point oppurtunity down the gutter because Ginobili commits one of the biggest bonehead fouls.

This whole "duncan can't repeat" shit is a load of horse. SA was equally great during that whole decade and if a play here and there goes differently in 2004 and 2006 they easily make the Finals with a much higher probability of winning than the Lakers/Mavs did. From 2003-2007 SA was great every single year. During the early 00s they had too many injuries to make good runs late in the year.

[Coffee Black]

So now SA has a better coach and organization?

Kobe and Shaq battled over whose team it was. But on top of crazy vetern help LA had, they also had the greatest winning coach as well. Duncan got along with everybody and hyped their game. That's part of the package. Shaq and Kobe, they had issues and it affected team play. That's part of their package. Willis had a very long career and he was very different in SA.

Duncan played better in the playoffs and guys knew he was the rock on the team. He was their consistency and the guy that could erase other guys mistakes. When he stepped his game up the team always seemed lifted. Parker and Gin wouldn't play well with a superstar that holds the ball - both of them tend to get lost here and there. Duncan's claim to fame was that he was a great team player. Strangely enough it was like a passive dominance (I wonder whose going to steal that term). Duncan was at the center but without a strong gravity. The ball moved very well and other guys could step up without worrying about taking the burden - cause TD always had that in order. Duncan was one of the few players that could lead and be in front of you while at the same time push you like he was behind you to paraphrase one of my explayers (Speedy Clax - sobeit, 8th grade).

What I said was that at the time, since 2002, the spurs did a much better job of getting the best out of the team as a whole. The biggest piece of evidence to the Lakers' team deficiencies is the in fighting and struggle between Kobe and Shaq. And Phil Jackson definitely did not sooth the situation either. And we all saw how it exploded in the Lakers face in 04.

It's very difficult to be successful as a feud while there is feuding. But they kept winning. In those years they had more success than the Spurs.

[Duncan21formvp]

This thread will be laughable in a few years. Just watch history unfold.
Why because one player went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving while the other was in 0 finals and won 0 titles prior to his arrival?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why because one player went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving while the other was in 0 finals and won 0 titles prior to his arrival?
:oldlol: go post that garbage at PSD

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why because one player went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving while the other was in 0 finals and won 0 titles prior to his arrival?

Pretty much... Kobe went to a team with that much history and despite that will still be considered the greatest Laker of all time when he hangs it up

[Duncan21formvp]

:oldlol: go post that garbage at PSD
It's a fact. If he was that great he would want to go to an organization that had no history and put it on the map. Going to one that did, made it easy to win. Let's say he was in Denver, Indiana, Sacramento, etc instead.

[Duncan21formvp]

Pretty much... Kobe went to a team with that much history and despite that will still be considered the greatest Laker of all time when he hangs it up
Because it is easy to win with the Lakers that is why.

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's a fact. If he was that great he would want to go to an organization that had no history and put it on the map. Going to one that did, made it easy to win. Let's say he was in Denver, Indiana, Sacramento, etc instead.
No it's not a fact

What if he was drafted to LA in '92 (11 championships, 5 the last 13 years)
What if he was drafted by Boston in '92 (15 championships)
What if he was drafted in Chicago in '99 (6 championships the last 9 years)

It's all about the present, past success doesn't mean your team is loaded

[Nevaeh]

No it's not a fact

What if he was drafted to LA in '92 (11 championships, 5 the last 13 years)
What if he was drafted by Boston in '92 (15 championships)
What if he was drafted in Chicago in '99 (6 championships the last 9 years)

It's all about the present, past success doesn't mean your team is loaded

Key word here is "Drafted". Kobe was picking his teams like a kid in a candy store, and turned down any teams that were struggling.

[04mzwach]

Kobe, 2nd fiddle /thread

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe, 2nd fiddle /thread
What about Magic/Kareem ?
You know the guys that won 5 rings together in the 80s

[LockoutOver11]

Pretty much... Kobe went to a team with that much history and despite that will still be considered the greatest Laker of all time when he hangs it up

ew

[iDefend5]

Kobe, 2nd fiddle /thread
So were Magic and Kareem at some point doe.

[IamRAMBO24]

This whole "duncan can't repeat" shit is a load of horse. SA was equally great during that whole decade and if a play here and there goes differently in 2004 and 2006 they easily make the Finals with a much higher probability of winning than the Lakers/Mavs did. From 2003-2007 SA was great every single year. During the early 00s they had too many injuries to make good runs late in the year.

Are you f*8kin' kidding me? The reason why I said Duncan can't repeat is because HE CAN'T! I don't know what is going on with the Spurs after a championship run with the SAME team and sometimes better and they cannot repeat. That's just sad. I blame this on Duncan and because of this, I will place Kobe higher than him on my all times list. There are 2 kinds of Duncans: one who gives a sh*t and one who doesn't. The one who doesn't treats the ball like it's kryptonite and expects his disciples to run the show while he waits under the basket for an easy lay up. The one that does give a sh*t demands the ball, blocks all the shots, takes all the rebounds, and yells at Parker and Ginoboless for taking too many shots.

Guess which Duncan won the rings?

Kobe only has one personality: the one that does not give a sh*t. And because of this, I place him higher than Duncan since he's willing to be the man with the bigger balls. You know what you will get out of Bryant. Duncan on the other hand, only shows up when he's not afraid of getting hurt.