Rank players 10-15 in your all-time list

[iDefend5]

I think it is well-established that the top 10 players of all-time are these guys....

Jordan
Bryant
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem


Who are the next 5?

[kenny817]

Dirk and Lin

thread over

[kenny817]

And LOL @ Kobe over Magic

[AlphaWolf24]

LIN




(gap)





MJ
KOBE


meh

[iDefend5]

And LOL @ Kobe over Magic
That wasn't in order. I just listed the top 10 players that are always in the top 10.

[Odinn]

11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Karl Malone
14. Charles Barkley
15. Oscar Robertson
In my goat list, that's the 11-15 range. But if I say the list you wrote is top10, the 11-15 range would be like this;
11. Moses Malone
12. Julius Erving
13. Karl Malone
14. Charles Barkley
15. Oscar Robertson

For now, I have Dr. J and Moses on my top10 ever list instead of Hakeem and Kobe.

[iDefend5]

For now, I have Dr. J and Moses on my top10 ever list instead of Hakeem and Kobe.http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/015/orly.jpg

Where is J-West by the way?

[kenny817]

That wasn't in order. I just listed the top 10 players that are always in the top 10.

Ahhhhhh gotcha

[Rnbizzle]

I guess Barkley, Malone and Robertson are at least in that region. I'd probable add West and Stockton. I don't know in what order exactly, I'll leave that to someone else.

[Bernie Nips]

11. Julius Erving
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Kevin Garnett

[Sarcastic]

I guess Barkley, Malone and Robertson are at least in that region. I'd probable add West and Stockton. I don't know in what order exactly, I'll leave that to someone else.

There is absolutely no way Stockton is top 15.

[Odinn]

Where is J-West by the way?
At 16th spot in my list.

[Teanett]

jordan
pippen
rodman
lin

[iDefend5]

11. Julius Erving
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Kevin Garnett
:oldlol:

[iDefend5]

At 16th spot in my list.
Interesting....dare to explain why Moses and J > Kobe and Hakeem though?

[Deuce Bigalow]

5 rings, 2 finals MVPs, and 3rd alltime in playoff scoring...and
Dr J, moses, malone, west, oscar, ect are ahead of him? :oldlol:
Kobe has more rings than those players combined

[Rnbizzle]

There is absolutely no way Stockton is top 15.
I love him as a player, may be a bit biased here. :cheers:

[Odinn]

Interesting....dare to explain why Moses and J > Kobe and Hakeem though?
I think Moses Malone truly underrated. He can be easily overlooked for a 3-times MVP winner because he changed teams so many times.

Dr. J actually doesn't need that much explanation. Before goat lists became this much complicated, he had a case for the goat. Because he was on that level. His ABA situation makes harder to rank him but I believe he belongs to the top 10. When you look at his career #s, after ABA there is a dramatic fall in his #s but before Moses' arrival he was still able to make it to the NBA Finals. He carried the Sixers to the Finals 1977(which his first year in NBA), 1980 and 1982.

[DMAVS41]

I think Moses Malone truly underrated. He can be easily overlooked for a 3-times MVP winner because he changed teams so many times.

Dr. J actually doesn't need that much explanation. Before goat lists became this much complicated, he had a case for the goat. Because he was on that level. His ABA situation makes harder to rank him but I believe he belongs to the top 10. When you look at his career #s, after ABA there is a dramatic fall in his #s but before Moses' arrival he was still able to make it to the NBA Finals. He carried the Sixers to the Finals 1977(which his first year in NBA), 1980 and 1982.

Dr. J has no case for GOAT if you saw him play. He was great, but he wasn't the caliber of player that should get GOAT consideration.

He is harder to rank because of his ABA days, but just in terms of his impact I'd take quite a few guys in this era alone over him. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Wade, and Lebron are all players I think were/are better than Dr. J. Not that all of those guys should rank higher than him now, but I think all of those guys were better players.

As for the thread:

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe


11. West
12. Oscar
13. Moses
14. Pettit
15. Dirk

[pauk]

I think it is well-established that the top 10 players of all-time are these guys....

Jordan
Bryant
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem


Who are the next 5?

1st of all... Kobe is not an undisputed top 10 player... Kobes place is at best #9... #10-#11 makes more sense....

2nd of all... Kobe doesnt belong next to Jordan or Magic... i dont even care if that is a random list....



As far as giving the answer on topic:

#1 - Jordan
#2 - Wilt
#3 - Kareem
#4 - Russell
#5 - Magic
#6 - Bird
#7 - Shaq
#8 - Oscar
#9 - Tim Duncan
#10 - Hakeem

#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Jerry West
#13 - Moses Malone
#14 - Karl Malone
#15 - Bob Pettit/Bob Cousy/Barkley/Lebron/Dirk all debatable

[Heavincent]

1st of all... Kobe is not an undisputed top 10 player.


Yes he is. Just learn to deal with it.

[pauk]

kobe does not belong over...

#1 - Jordan
#2 - Wilt
#3 - Kareem
#4 - Russell
#5 - Magic
#6 - Bird
#7 - Shaq
#8 - Tim Duncan

....whatsoever........... Hakeem & Oscar have an extremly small edge according to me, but you can have Kobe over them if you so like... makes me scratch the head anyways, but thats just me... but ok..... but over those other 8 players... Kobe does NOT belong...

[G-Funk]

11. Julius Erving
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Kevin Garnett
:oldlol:

[pauk]

Yes he is. Just learn to deal with it.

Hakeem & Oscar dispute that #9-#10 spot very very thoroughly...... as far those other 8 guys mentioned above, Kobe has no place... only a homer would place Kobe over:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan

[Heavincent]

kobe does not belong over...

#1 - Jordan
#2 - Wilt
#3 - Kareem
#4 - Russell
#5 - Magic
#6 - Bird
#7 - Shaq
#8 - Tim Duncan

....whatsoever........... Hakeem & Oscar have an extremly small edge according to me, but you can have Kobe over them if you so like... makes me scratch the head anyways, but thats just me... but ok..... but over those other 8 players... Kobe does NOT belong...

:oldlol:

We're done here.

[Scholar]

I think it is well-established that the top 10 players of all-time are these guys....

Jordan
Bryant
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem


Who are the next 5?

I won't list them in order, but the next 5 should be:

Jerry West
Dr. J
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
John Stockton

[Bernie Nips]

Why is my post getting laughed at, when people are including Dirk at no. 15 and that's all good?

KG > Dirk

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hakeem & Oscar dispute that #9-#10 spot very very thoroughly...... as far those other 8 guys mentioned above, Kobe has no place... only a homer would place Kobe over:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
has "no place" over Duncan, and Shaq?:rolleyes::lol
Oscar... :roll:
0 rings as the best player

[talkingconch]

Hakeem & Oscar dispute that #9-#10 spot very very thoroughly...... as far those other 8 guys mentioned above, Kobe has no place... only a homer would place Kobe over:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan

lol Kobe and Duncan are interchangeable.

Oscar?? Do rings not matter anymore?

I'm guessing if he wins 1 more ring you'll put him at #9 :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

I won't list them in order, but the next 5 should be:

Jerry West
Dr. J
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
John Stockton

Stockton?

ROFL....

[Round Mound]

Dominance and Efficiency


1-MJ
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Big 0
5-Shaq
6-Hakeem
7-Bird
8-Magic
9-Barkley
10-Duncan
11-Moses
12-D-Rob
13-Dr J
14-Baylor
15-Malone

[guy]

These lists change everyday for me. Right now:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Kobe

Then

11. Dr. J (including his ABA days)
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. KG

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dominance and Efficiency


1-MJ
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Big 0
5-Shaq
6-Hakeem
7-Bird
8-Magic
9-Barkley
10-Duncan
11-Moses
12-D-Rob
13-Dr J
14-Baylor
15-Malone

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3

Dirk>Wilt>Kareem>Magic>Kobe>Bird in Playoff PER
Why isn't Dirk top 5?
Why are Kareem, Magic, Bird in the top 10? they are not top 10 in Playoff PER

:facepalm

[D-Wade316]

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3

Dirk>Wilt>Kareem>Magic>Kobe>Bird in Playoff PER
Why isn't Dirk top 5?
Why are Kareem, Magic, Bird in the top 10? they are not top 10 in Playoff PER

:facepalm
:applause: As much as I disagree with most of your opinions. Round Mound is a ****ing hypocrite.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oh and Roundmound you always say Kobe is a horrible finals performer

Kobe
2009 - 28.3 PER
2010 - 26.3 PER

Barkley
1993 - 22.5 PER

what does that make Barkley?

[Round Mound]

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3

Dirk>Wilt>Kareem>Magic>Kobe>Bird in Playoff PER
Why isn't Dirk top 5?
Why are Kareem, Magic, Bird in the top 10? they are not top 10 in Playoff PER

:facepalm


I am talking about Retired Players so calm down. :rolleyes:

Also PER is Biased when there is more than 2 or 3 Superstars or All Stars Per Team. Thats what happened in the 80s for Larry and Magic. I don`t compare them to prior players but to their times. Check out Kareem`s PER for ages 22-32 PRIME

Also i take acount also EFF, Shot Maide/Missed Diferential, Defensive Rating and not to forget Plus/Minus.

[Round Mound]

Oh and Roundmound you always say Kobe is a horrible finals performer

Kobe
2009 - 28.3 PER
2010 - 26.3 PER

Barkley
1993 - 22.5 PER

what does that make Barkley?

Barkley is Higher than Bryant in almot every category of Statistical Breakdown

PER
EFF
Plus/Minus
Shot Made Diferential
WS
OWS
WS per 48 Minutes

etc

Barkley was More Dominant than Bryant. Play-Off Stats are also Better, ALOT BETTER than Bryants stats

Not Charles fault he had to play against MJ-Pippen and Phil Jackson`s Bulls.

[StateOfMind12]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Wilt

11. Dr. J
12. West
13. Oscar
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone



Then

11. Dr. J (including his ABA days)
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. KG
I didn't think you were one of those people that believed KG was better than Malone.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Barkley is Higher than Bryant in almot every category of Statistical Breakdown

PER
EFF
Plus/Minus
Shot Made Diferential
WS
OWS
WS per 48 Minutes

etc

Barkley was More Dominant than Bryant. Play-Off Stats are also Better, ALOT BETTER than Bryants stats

Not Charles fault he had to play against MJ-Pippen and Phil Jackson`s Bulls.
Dirk's is higher, alot higher than Larry Bird

and what happened in '83-90, '94-95? when jordan wasn't in the finals

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/984/1654850tyne10qt.jpg

Deal with it Round Mound

[guy]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Wilt

11. Dr. J
12. West
13. Oscar
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone


I didn't think you were one of those people that believed KG was better than Malone.

The KG/Dirk/Malone/Barkley order is always hard for me and changes all the time. Malone is just one of the biggest chokers of all-time when it comes to superstars but his longevity is arguably second to none. So its hard for me to rank him, but I wouldn't have a problem with anyone putting him 1st in that group.

[StateOfMind12]

The KG/Dirk/Malone/Barkley order is always hard for me and changes all the time. Malone is just one of the biggest chokers of all-time when it comes to superstars but his longevity is arguably second to none. So its hard for me to rank him, but I wouldn't have a problem with anyone putting him 1st in that group.
Malone is far more clutch than he is given credit for which is why I think saying LeBron is the Malone of this era makes sense. LeBron is much more clutch than people give him credit for although there are still a decent amount of players I would take over.

Anyways, I think peak KG was better than all three of those guys. I'd take '03-'04 KG over any of those players without hesitation.

Peak has the least meaning for me though because what good is 1-2 seasons if another player can play close, but not as high at his peak level for about 9-10 seasons? That was what Karl Malone essentially was, a player that dominated for about 15 years and playing the same way and in the same level throughout.

I would rank them like this....

1. Karl Malone
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley

Barkley had problems and a lot of them which is why I never thought so highly of him or why I would never really want to build my team around him.

[bballnoob1192]

IMO with all time lists there are multiple lvls of accomplishments and the higher levels of accomplishment a player reaches the higher they are ranked

level 1) every great player must be dominant (thats a given)
level 2)must win reg season MVP at least once.
level 3)must win 1title and 1FMVP
level 4)must win multiple titles/FMVP/MVP
level 5)must build dynasties(2-3 titles in a row or 4-5 titles in 7-8years)

and when i go by this criteria, that is purely my opinion of placing players in the top 10, it makes it really easy for me.

[Sarcastic]

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Magic
4 Kareem
5 Russell
6a Bird
6b Shaq
8 Kobe
9 Hakeem
10 Duncan

11 Oscar
12 Barkley
13 Baylor
14 Malone
15 Garnett


I would put Lebron at 16 or 17 right now. If he wins another MVP this year he will move to 12. If he wins a ring he will go to 11. He needs a few rings to get into top 10.

[Round Mound]

Dirk's is higher, alot higher than Larry Bird

and what happened in '83-90, '94-95? when jordan wasn't in the finals

:facepalm

Havent you read? I used Players that are about to retire or retired.

Again? For Bird he played with 2 other All Stars that is why his PER is lowered. He would have scored more in a bad team and had a higher PER

Dirk is a better scorer than Bird but THATS ALL HE WAS COMPARED TO BIRD: whoe was Better Shooter, Better Passer, Better Rebounder and Better Defender (see DRT).

Barkley clowns as they clown with him for Marketing he changes is GOAT Lists...everyone knows the Best Player in the Game is Lebron for like 3-4 years no matter what teams wins te title.

[Round Mound]

Malone is far more clutch than he is given credit for which is why I think saying LeBron is the Malone of this era makes sense. LeBron is much more clutch than people give him credit for although there are still a decent amount of players I would take over.

Anyways, I think peak KG was better than all three of those guys. I'd take '03-'04 KG over any of those players without hesitation.

Peak has the least meaning for me though because what good is 1-2 seasons if another player can play close, but not as high at his peak level for about 9-10 seasons? That was what Karl Malone essentially was, a player that dominated for about 15 years and playing the same way and in the same level throughout.

I would rank them like this....

1. Karl Malone
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley

Barkley had problems and a lot of them which is why I never thought so highly of him or why I would never really want to build my team around him.

:roll:: Man You are Funny..You must be 20-25 at most you never watched Barkley in his Prime and HEALTHY.

Barkley was a Better Player than All Those Players by Far :facepalm

Not only in his Prime he OWNED MALONE HEAD TO HEAD but also Duncan and Garnett at ages 33-36.

Dirk is the 2nd most Difficult PF to Guard of All Time AFTER BARKLEY who also SHOT HIGHER FG% THAN HIM AND ALL OF THEM

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

:roll:: Man You are Funny..You must be 20-25 at most you never watched Barkley in his Prime and HEALTHY.

Barkley was a Better Player than All Those Players by Far :facepalm

Not only in his Prime he OWNED MALONE HEAD TO HEAD but also Duncan and Garnett at ages 33-36.

Dirk is the 2nd most Difficult PF to Guard of All Time AFTER BARKLEY who also SHOT HIGHER FG% THAN HIM AND ALL OF THEM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0tqOV16zz9w/TUaVenNOjuI/AAAAAAAAAUE/GQXKVPtrTjA/s1600/tim-duncan-championship-ring.jpg

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Dirk-Ring.jpg

http://clnsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/kevin-garnett-ring.jpg






























http://plus4chan.org/boards/baw/src/128096198614.jpg

[lilblingy]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0tqOV16zz9w/TUaVenNOjuI/AAAAAAAAAUE/GQXKVPtrTjA/s1600/tim-duncan-championship-ring.jpg

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Dirk-Ring.jpg

http://clnsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/kevin-garnett-ring.jpg






























http://plus4chan.org/boards/baw/src/128096198614.jpg


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[WillC]

People posting in this thread appear to have no idea how good Oscar Robertson was.

In the 1960s, people argued between Wilt and Oscar as the best players of all-time. Russell was regarded as the greatest winner but it was only in retrospect that people started rating him above Wilt and Oscar.

At the time, Oscar was the Michael Jordan of the League.

Therefore, it's kind of ridiculous to see some of you ranking players like Charles Barkley ahead of him.

[raiderfan19]

Dr j continues to be insanely overrated on these boards

[StateOfMind12]

Dr j continues to be insanely overrated on these boards
Explain.

Dr. J is underrated if anything since people act as if the ABA was some sort of D-League or JV league when it was actually as competitive, if not more competitive than the NBA was at the time.

If you don't count ABA years at all, Is Dr. J top 15? Actually, is Dr. J even top 20? I'm not even sure because his prime/peaks1 years were clearly in his ABA days.

[oolalaa]

People posting in this thread appear to have no idea how good Oscar Robertson was.

In the 1960s, people argued between Wilt and Oscar as the best players of all-time. Russell was regarded as the greatest winner but it was only in retrospect that people started rating him above Wilt and Oscar.

At the time, Oscar was the Michael Jordan of the League.



How about you actually do some research and quit making stuff up. You wouldn't end up spewing garbage like this.

[Sarcastic]

How about you actually do some research and quit making stuff up. You wouldn't end up spewing garbage like this.

Except he is totally correct.

[ILLsmak]

I don't think it's wrong to have Stockton in the top 15. He's well represented in the record books, his peers feared him, and he balled in the Finals.

I'd like to know why people are so opposed to it. They would rather Magic be the only PG in the top 15?

Stockton has an argument for the greatest PG in NBA history; how can you laugh at him being mentioned as a top 15 player? Do you not value the PG position or do you only look for sexy stats and rings?

-Smak

[oolalaa]

I don't think it's wrong to have Stockton in the top 15. He's well represented in the record books, his peers feared him, and he balled in the Finals.

I'd like to know why people are so opposed to it. They would rather Magic be the only PG in the top 15?

Stockton has an argument for the greatest PG in NBA history; how can you laugh at him being mentioned as a top 15 player? Do you not value the PG position or do you only look for sexy stats and rings?

-Smak

I don't know whether to :facepalm or :roll:

[WillC]

How about you actually do some research and quit making stuff up. You wouldn't end up spewing garbage like this.

Ok, kid. How about you go read the legendary '24 Seconds To Shoot' by Leonard Koppett. In fact, I'll save you the hassle:

"Oscar Robertson was the complete player. As a passer, mechanically, he was Cousy's equal. As a shooter, he was unsurpassed by anyone. On defense, he could guard his man and steal the ball, intercept passes with uncanny instinct, rebound with bigger man. Offensively, it seemed he could score any time he really wanted to - on a jump shot, on a drive, going into the pivot.

In view of these things, it wasn't surprising that many began to refer to Oscar as the best basketball player the human race had yet produced. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour."

[Sarcastic]

I don't think it's wrong to have Stockton in the top 15. He's well represented in the record books, his peers feared him, and he balled in the Finals.

I'd like to know why people are so opposed to it. They would rather Magic be the only PG in the top 15?

Stockton has an argument for the greatest PG in NBA history; how can you laugh at him being mentioned as a top 15 player? Do you not value the PG position or do you only look for sexy stats and rings?

-Smak

There are players who have won MVPs that are not top 15. John Stockton's highest MVP voting finish was 7th.

I would say in retrospect he gets ranked higher than where people viewed him during his playing days. If in the late 1980s or early 1990s, you said Stockton was better than Dominique or Ewing or Robinson, you would have been completely laughed at.

[guy]

Malone is far more clutch than he is given credit for which is why I think saying LeBron is the Malone of this era makes sense. LeBron is much more clutch than people give him credit for although there are still a decent amount of players I would take over.

Anyways, I think peak KG was better than all three of those guys. I'd take '03-'04 KG over any of those players without hesitation.

Peak has the least meaning for me though because what good is 1-2 seasons if another player can play close, but not as high at his peak level for about 9-10 seasons? That was what Karl Malone essentially was, a player that dominated for about 15 years and playing the same way and in the same level throughout.

I would rank them like this....

1. Karl Malone
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley

Barkley had problems and a lot of them which is why I never thought so highly of him or why I would never really want to build my team around him.

That doesn't change that Karl Malone was arguably the biggest choker for a player of his caliber.

I don't think Lebron is anywhere near as bad. Before 2010, he had many clutch moments that Malone doesn't really compare too.

[oolalaa]

Ok, kid. How about you go read the legendary '24 Seconds To Shoot' by Leonard Koppett. In fact, I'll save you the hassle:

"Oscar Robertson was the complete player. As a passer, mechanically, he was Cousy's equal. As a shooter, he was unsurpassed by anyone. On defense, he could guard his man and steal the ball, intercept passes with uncanny instinct, rebound with bigger man. Offensively, it seemed he could score any time he really wanted to - on a jump shot, on a drive, going into the pivot.

In view of these things, it wasn't surprising that many began to refer to Oscar as the best basketball player the human race had yet produced. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour."

Holy moly.

Why did you post that quote?? It's completely irrelevant.

Oscar was ridiculously talented - certainly more talented than Russell, but that doesn't make him better or 'greater'.

I'm not going to spend hours digging up quotes from Russell's and Oscar's contemporaries but I can guarantee you that the vast majority, when asked who they would rather team with, chose Russell over Oscar.

And off the top of my head....Russell was named as the athlete of the decade (covering all sports) in 1970, and 10 years later was declared the greatest player of all time by the NBA writers association.

[lakers_forever]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird (from Bird up, everyone has a solid G.O.A.T case and could be rank almost anyway).
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan (those 3 guys definied a generation, winning multiple rings).

10 to 15 would be:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon ("only" two rings, people never claimed he was the best player or the best center ever when he was playing).
11. Big O (was considered better than Logo when they played, it's weird to have West ahead of him. Got G.O.A.T considerations when he was playing).
12. Jerry West
13. Moses Malone
14. Dr. J
15. George Mikan or several other players like John Havlicek, Bob Pettit (very underrated, two mvp's, ring over Bill Russell celtics and 18 nba first team selections), Karl Malone, Barkley, Baylor, Thomas and so on. There's no right answer IMO.

[WillC]

Holy moly.

Oscar was ridiculously talented - certainly more talented than Russell, but that doesn't make him better or 'greater'.

I'm not going to spend hours digging up quotes from Russell's and Oscar's contemporaries but I can guarantee you that the vast majority, when asked who they would rather team with, chose Russell over Oscar.

And off the top of my head....Russell was named as the athlete of the decade (covering all sports) in 1970, and 10 years later was declared the greatest player of all time by the NBA writers association.

You're missing the point.

I am not (and neither is the author) saying that Oscar Robertson deserves to be ranked above Bill Russell.

I am merely relaying the fact that, at one point in time, Oscar Robertson was heralded as arguably the greatest player alive (in fact, better than that: he was the 'best basketball player the human race had yet produced').

Therefore, as I said before, I find it ridiculous that some people have ranked Charles Barkley above Oscar Robertson in their all-time lists.

Clearly Russell deserves to be above Robertson. I'm not debating that.

[Sarcastic]

Even up till the 1980s, Oscar Robertson's name was brought up as the GOAT.

[WillC]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird (from Bird up, everyone has a solid G.O.A.T case and could be rank almost anyway).
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan (those 3 guys definied a generation, winning multiple rings).

10 to 15 would be:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon ("only" two rings, people never claimed he was the best player or the best center ever when he was playing).
11. Big O (was considered better than Logo when they played, it's weird to have West ahead of him. Got G.O.A.T considerations when he was playing).
12. Jerry West
13. Moses Malone
14. Dr. J
15. George Mikan or several other players like John Havlicek, Bob Pettit (very underrated, two mvp's, ring over Bill Russell celtics and 18 nba first team selections), Karl Malone, Barkley, Baylor, Thomas and so on. There's no right answer IMO.

That's a very solid list. Well done.

Here is my compilation of various publications' all-time rankings (however, I need to update it with a few new rankings that I have found in a variety of books and magazines), which are similar to yours:

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

[WillC]

Even up till the 1980s, Oscar Robertson's name was brought up as the GOAT.

In a 2003 issue of Slam magazine, they ranked Oscar Robertson as the 3rd best player of all-time.

He is ranked as the 5th best player of all-time in 'Basketball's 100 Greatest Players', published in 1989.

Even with the emergence of modern superstars such as Jordan, Shaq, Kobe and Duncan, I firmly believe that Oscar is still a top 10 player of all-time.

[oolalaa]

You're missing the point.

I am not (and neither is the author) saying that Oscar Robertson deserves to be ranked above Bill Russell.

I am merely relaying the fact that, at one point in time, Oscar Robertson was heralded as arguably the greatest player alive (in fact, better than that: he was the 'best basketball player the human race had yet produced').

Therefore, as I said before, I find it ridiculous that some people have ranked Charles Barkley above Oscar Robertson in their all-time lists.

Clearly Russell deserves to be above Robertson. I'm not debating that.

You said "....but it was only in retrospect that people started rating him above Wilt and Oscar". THIS IS GARBAGE. Russell was considered the 'best' or 'greatest' (how ever you want to word it) player of his era....by his contemporaries and sports writers etc. This is why I said that you should actually do some PROPER research.

Again, Oscar (and Wilt) was more talented than Russell. That is what the, "he was the best basketball player the human race had yet produced" quote was alluding to but no way was he better. At no point was Oscar HERALDED as the 'greatest' player alive. The most talented, maybe.

You're right about Barkley though. Oscar had flaws (I did a very quick critique of him in a previous thread - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251303 post #25) but there's no way Barkley is above him on all time lists.

[WillC]

You said "....but it was only in retrospect that people started rating him above Wilt and Oscar". THIS IS GARBAGE. Russell was considered the 'best' or 'greatest' (how ever you want to word it) player of his era....by his contemporaries and sports writers etc. This is why I said that you should actually do some PROPER research.

Again, Oscar (and Wilt) was more talented than Russell. That is what the, "he was the best basketball player the human race had yet produced" quote was alluding to but no way was he better. At no point was Oscar was never HERALDED as the 'greatest' player alive. The most talented, maybe.

You're right about Barkley though. Oscar had flaws (I did a very quick critique of him in a previous thread - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251303 post #25) but there's no way Barkley is above him on all time lists.

I don't actually disagree with you. I guess it's just a choice of words: Best, Greatest, Most Valuable, Most Significant, etc.

For example, Russell won multiple MVP awards.... even when he wasn't named All-League 1st Team.

What does that tell us? That he meant more to his team than anyone else - despite not necessarily being regarded as the best player in the league.

[oolalaa]

In a 2003 issue of Slam magazine, they ranked Oscar Robertson as the 3rd best player of all-time.

He is ranked as the 5th best player of all-time in 'Basketball's 100 Greatest Players', published in 1989.

Even with the emergence of modern superstars such as Jordan, Shaq, Kobe and Duncan, I firmly believe that Oscar is still a top 10 player of all-time.

Slam magazine is a joke. Their latest list has Oscar at #5....ahead of Magic!! :facepalm

[WillC]

Slam magazine is a joke. Their latest list has Oscar at #5....ahead of Magic!! :facepalm

Yeah I know. Slam change their mind on their rankings every time they get a new editor, which makes sense I guess. In my opinion they were too heavily influenced by statistics back in 2003 (hence the overrating of Oscar in 3rd, Dominique 27th, Bellamy 35th, English 40th, etc) and too dismissive of modern players' achievements in their recent Top 500 issue (hence Garnett 30th, LeBron 31st, Wade 49th, Nash 50th, Nowitzk 55th, Pierce 77th, etc).

[oolalaa]

Yeah I know. Slam change their mind on their rankings every time they get a new editor, which makes sense I guess. In my opinion they were too heavily influenced by statistics back in 2003 (hence the overrating of Oscar in 3rd, Dominique 27th, Bellamy 35th, English 40th, etc) and too dismissive of modern players' achievements in their recent Top 500 issue (hence Garnett 30th, LeBron 31st, Wade 49th, Nash 50th, Nowitzk 55th, Pierce 77th, etc).

A lot of people are. The NBA is NOT baseball. The best players are not necessarily the ones with the best stats.

Do you have an all time list? Where do you rank Oscar?

[WillC]

A lot of people are. The NBA is NOT baseball. The best players are not necessarily the ones with the best stats.

Do you have an all time list? Where do you rank Oscar?

Factoring in everything - individual achievement, team success, statistical dominance and a general gut feeling for who was better than whom - my top 15 looks like this:

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Bill Russell
03 - Wilt Chamberlain
04 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
05 - Magic Johnson
06 - Larry Bird
07 - Shaquille O'Neal (during 2000 to 2003, he was arguably the most dominant player ever)
08 - Hakeem Olajuwon
09 - Tim Duncan (he wasn't as good as Olajuwon)
10 - Oscar Robertson (lack of team success as 'the man' hurts him historically)
11 - Kobe Bryant
12 - Jerry West (legacy thwarted by the Celtics juggernaut)
13 - Julius Erving (can't dismiss those ABA years)
14 - Moses Malone
15 - Elgin Baylor

Even if he never wins a ring, LeBron James will be top 15 by the end of his career.

Honourable mentions: George Mikan (all of my top 15 would dominate in any era - the same can't be said of Mikan), Bob Cousy, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry.

[WillC]

1st of all... Kobe is not an undisputed top 10 player... Kobes place is at best #9... #10-#11 makes more sense....

2nd of all... Kobe doesnt belong next to Jordan or Magic... i dont even care if that is a random list....



As far as giving the answer on topic:

#1 - Jordan
#2 - Wilt
#3 - Kareem
#4 - Russell
#5 - Magic
#6 - Bird
#7 - Shaq
#8 - Oscar
#9 - Tim Duncan
#10 - Hakeem

#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Jerry West
#13 - Moses Malone
#14 - Karl Malone
#15 - Bob Pettit/Bob Cousy/Barkley/Lebron/Dirk all debatable

Very solid list.

[raiderfan19]

Explain.

Dr. J is underrated if anything since people act as if the ABA was some sort of D-League or JV league when it was actually as competitive, if not more competitive than the NBA was at the time.

If you don't count ABA years at all, Is Dr. J top 15? Actually, is Dr. J even top 20? I'm not even sure because his prime/peaks1 years were clearly in his ABA days.
So he peaked from 21-25? And no, he's probably not in my top 25

[PTB Fan]

These should be the players who are in that range, if not higher arguably in some lists.

Bob Pettit (clearly he's became just a name these days)
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Julius Erving
John Havlicek (same like Pettit)

These should be the players in the debate. Moses Malone could be added to the conversation as well as few others potentially. These are pretty much the players in the conversation. In fact, i've seen all of these into the top 10 by some people and they were regarded as GOAT candidates back in the day too.

[Harison]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0tqOV16zz9w/TUaVenNOjuI/AAAAAAAAAUE/GQXKVPtrTjA/s1600/tim-duncan-championship-ring.jpg

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Dirk-Ring.jpg

http://clnsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/kevin-garnett-ring.jpg






























http://plus4chan.org/boards/baw/src/128096198614.jpg

I have to admit, this made me chuckle :lol

[PTB Fan]

Even up till the 1980s, Oscar Robertson's name was brought up as the GOAT.

Evein in recent time, people have been calling Oscar Robertson as the GOAT in NBA History.

He's a candidate for the GOAT honors, so this shouldn't be any surprise.

[oolalaa]

Factoring in everything - individual achievement, team success, statistical dominance and a general gut feeling for who was better than whom - my top 15 looks like this:

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Bill Russell
03 - Wilt Chamberlain
04 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
05 - Magic Johnson
06 - Larry Bird
07 - Shaquille O'Neal (during 2000 to 2003, he was arguably the most dominant player ever)
08 - Hakeem Olajuwon
09 - Tim Duncan (he wasn't as good as Olajuwon)
10 - Oscar Robertson (lack of team success as 'the man' hurts him historically)
11 - Kobe Bryant
12 - Jerry West (legacy thwarted by the Celtics juggernaut)
13 - Julius Erving (can't dismiss those ABA years)
14 - Moses Malone
15 - Elgin Baylor

Even if he never wins a ring, LeBron James will be top 15 by the end of his career.

Honourable mentions: George Mikan (all of my top 15 would dominate in any era - the same can't be said of Mikan), Bob Cousy, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry.

That's certainly a logical, well thought out list. Mine....

1. Jordan (The perfect player?)
2. Johnson (The best player, leader and driving force on a team that went to 8 finals and won 4 rings in the span of 10 years, in an extremely competitive era)
3. Russell (11 rings in 13 seasons. Need I say more?)

4. Abdul-jabbar (arrgghhhh. He should have been more successful in the NBAs weakest era. I know he had some mediocre teammates but there's no excuse for missing the playoffs 2 years in a row in his absolute prime and not getting past the 2nd round for 3 years in the late 70s (The coke era). Magic rescued his legacy somewhat)
5. Bird (The greatest playmaking forward of all time. The greatest rebounding SF of all time. Underrated defender. And perhaps the greatest game 7 performer in history)
6. Chamberlain (Intangibly weak)

7. West (I am using my GUT here - he could be as low as 10/11, but I do think he gets sorely underrated. The guy was/is the 2nd greatest perimeter scorer in NBA history....AND was a very good playmaker....AND was great defensively....AND he was a great teammate and good leader. He got screwed over by the era he played in. Most people have Kobe over the logo purely because he has 5 rings. How many would he have if he played in the 60s?)
8. Duncan (The modern Russell)
9. Bryant (Poor mans Jordan)
10. O'Neal (If we were judging peaks, he'd be in the top 3)
11. Olajuwon (Not getting out of the 1st round for 4 straight years and then winning his 2 rings with the GOAT out of the league hurts his legacy for me)

12. Robertson (The guy was simply not a 'winner'. If he was so good, how did he only win 2 playoff series in his entire tenure in Cincy and not even make the friggin playoffs for 3 years in a row??)
13. Erving (You're exactly right. By all accounts, he was a monster in the ABA)
14. Malone, Moses (I don't think he was a great leader. I don't think he made his teammates better. I'm not sure how driven he was. But goddamnit....the guy could rebound!!
15. Havlicek (Generally underrated)


*Elgin is one of the biggest shot jackers in history. Undoubtedly great, but Selfish in the 1st half of his career, and maybe 75% as effective in the 2nd half.

[Coffee Black]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Jerry West
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Julius Erving
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit

[WillC]

That's certainly a logical, well thought out list. Mine....

1. Jordan (The perfect player?)
2. Johnson (The best player, leader and driving force on a team that went to 8 finals and won 4 rings in the span of 10 years, in an extremely competitive era)
3. Russell (11 rings in 13 seasons. Need I say more?)

4. Abdul-jabbar (arrgghhhh. He should have been more successful in the NBAs weakest era. I know he had some mediocre teammates but there's no excuse for missing the playoffs 2 years in a row in his absolute prime and not getting past the 2nd round for 3 years in the late 70s (The coke era). Magic rescued his legacy somewhat)
5. Bird (The greatest playmaking forward of all time. The greatest rebounding SF of all time. Underrated defender. And perhaps the greatest game 7 performer in history)
6. Chamberlain (Intangibly weak)

7. West (I am using my GUT here - he could be as low as 10/11, but I do think he gets sorely underrated. The guy was/is the 2nd greatest perimeter scorer in NBA history....AND was a very good playmaker....AND was great defensively....AND he was a great teammate and good leader. He got screwed over by the era he played in. Most people have Kobe over the logo purely because he has 5 rings. How many would he have if he played in the 60s?)
8. Duncan (The modern Russell)
9. Bryant (Poor mans Jordan)
10. O'Neal (If we were judging peaks, he'd be in the top 3)
11. Olajuwon (Not getting out of the 1st round for 4 straight years and then winning his 2 rings with the GOAT out of the league hurts his legacy for me)

12. Robertson (The guy was simply not a 'winner'. If he was so good, how did he only win 2 playoff series in his entire tenure in Cincy and not even make the friggin playoffs for 3 years in a row??)
13. Erving (You're exactly right. By all accounts, he was a monster in the ABA)
14. Malone, Moses (I don't think he was a great leader. I don't think he made his teammates better. I'm not sure how driven he was. But goddamnit....the guy could rebound!!
15. Havlicek (Generally underrated)


*Elgin is one of the biggest shot jackers in history. Undoubtedly great, but Selfish in the 1st half of his career, and maybe 75% as effective in the 2nd half.

Excellent list.

I'd like to comment on a few things:

- In a fantasy draft, I'd perhaps choose Magic Johnson second (after Jordan of course). There have actually been plenty of legendary centers, but how many legendary point guards have there been? None on Magic's level. He's clearly the best play maker of all-time and a proven winner. I totally buy into your argument about him getting the job done during arguably the greatest era in basketball history.

- Regarding your comments about Kareem and Oscar (i.e. their lack of team success at certain points in their career), I think its also worth pointing out that the 1970-71 Bucks team are regarded by some experts as the greatest team of all-time. There is a book ('The NBA From Top to Bottom: A History of the NBA, From the No. 1 Team Through No. 1,153' by Kyle Wright) which makes the argument quite convincingly. Sure, it was just for one season, but Wright makes the argument that the Bucks in 1970-71 were the most dominant team ever.

- Chamberlain might be the most intangibly weak superstar of all-time. However, tangibly, he might be the best of all-time. It works both ways :pimp:

I agree with nearly everything you said on the whole though, e.g. Jerry West, Larry Bird, etc.

[oolalaa]

Excellent list.

I'd like to comment on a few things:

- In a fantasy draft, I'd perhaps choose Magic Johnson second (after Jordan of course). There have actually been plenty of legendary centers, but how many legendary point guards have there been? None on Magic's level. He's clearly the best play maker of all-time and a proven winner. I totally buy into your argument about him getting the job done during arguably the greatest era in basketball history.

- Regarding your comments about Kareem and Oscar (i.e. their lack of team success at certain points in their career), I think its also worth pointing out that the 1970-71 Bucks team are regarded by some experts as the greatest team of all-time. There is a book ('The NBA From Top to Bottom: A History of the NBA, From the No. 1 Team Through No. 1,153' by Kyle Wright) which makes the argument quite convincingly. Sure, it was just for one season, but Wright makes the argument that the Bucks in 1970-71 were the most dominant team ever.

- Chamberlain might be the most intangibly weak superstar of all-time. However, tangibly, he might be the best of all-time. It works both ways :pimp:

I agree with nearly everything you said on the whole though, e.g. Jerry West, Larry Bird, etc.

They were certainly dominant - Dandridge might be one of the most underrated players of all time (2 time champion, 4th best SF of the 70s, just a very good all round player - I'm always impressed when I watch a classic Bucks or Bullets game) and Kareem allowed Oscar to settle into what he did best - playmaking.

However....thanks to expansion, and the ABA, the early 70s were very watered down and therefore not that competitive. Maybe that's why they were so dominant :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

I think it is well-established that the top 10 players of all-time are these guys....

Jordan
Bryant
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem


Who are the next 5?

11. Big O
12. Dr. J
13. Jerry West
14. John Havlicek
15. Moses Malone

I tend to put Big O in my top ten over Hakeem and I would then slide Hakeem to number 11.

[bizil]

One thing that Dr. J has over many, many guys is the fact that he was the ambassador of the NBA BEFORE Bird and Magic got going. The L saw the vision through Doc in terms of how they wanted to transform the L's image. Then Bird and Magic came and pushed shit through. Then MJ came along and took the L to its zenith. In my book the four most important guys who made the L what it is today are Doc, MJ, Bird, and Magic. They were the most transcendant guys. Impact counts big time in a GOAT list.

And in terms of being dominant on AND off the court, Dr. J was the blueprint as far as the NBA goes. And at the same time he was revolutionizing the SF position and was so far ahead of his time. So at this point Doc may not be a top 10 GOAT, but I feel he still has a case for top 10 GOAT. I usually have him in the top 12 GOAT. And in terms of career resume at SF (not peak value, even though I have Doc number three behind Bird and Lebron in that sense) his resume is arguably the best. I highly regard his ABA years because the competition was on par with the L. And the NBA incorporated ABA teams, players, and concepts.

[feyki]

Lebron,Erving,West,Mikan,Oscar .

[Cold soul]

Top 10-15 in now order.

Hakeem
Oscar
West
Dr.J
Moses Malone

You can put Karl Malone 15th.

[JebronLames]

got Kobe at #12

[ISHGoat]

Kobe #13 after this season.