Prime Vince Carter vs. Prime Tracy McGrady

[iDefend5]

Who you got?

[yanix]

McGrady hands down

[Clippersfan86]

Tracy easily. Better defender, better playmaker, equal or better scorer.

[StateOfMind12]

Peak - Tracy McGrady
Prime - Vince Carter
Career - Vince Carter

McGrady's peak was better than Vince Carter's but Vince Carter's prime lasted longer than McGrady's did which is the difference.

Both of these players had the same flaws. Tracy had a worse flaw and that was the fact that he was a bad teammate and an even worse leader. I remember saying that Vince Carter as the most underrated player in 2009 because he was doing a great job in New Jersey at the time. Vince Carter did a great job providing the leadership role in New Jersey after Jason Kidd got traded to Dallas which was in 2008. Vince Carter has the huge intangibles advantage over Tracy McGrady which is another reason why I would go with Vince.

Now factor in how VC got past the 1st round with Antonio Davis in 2001 as his 2nd best player and how Tmac never got past the 1st round with Yao Ming as his in 2005 and 2007 and it isn't close.

Also factor in how the Nets were a near playoff team in 2009 with VC to the worst team in the NBA in 2010 without VC and how the Rockets failed to get past he 1st round with McGrady in 2008 and how the Rockets got past the 1st round without McGrady in 2009.

VC is a HOFer, Tmac is borderline, neither are top 50 players of all-time either.

[bond10]

Peak - Tracy McGrady
Prime - Vince Carter
Career - Vince Carter

McGrady's peak was better than Vince Carter's but Vince Carter's prime lasted longer than McGrady's did which is the difference.

Both of these players had the same flaws. Tracy had a worse flaw and that was the fact that he was a bad teammate and an even worse leader. I remember saying that Vince Carter as the most underrated player in 2009 because he was doing a great job in New Jersey at the time. Vince Carter did a great job providing the leadership role in New Jersey after Jason Kidd got traded to Dallas which was in 2008. Vince Carter has the huge intangibles advantage over Tracy McGrady which is another reason why I would go with Vince.

Now factor in how VC got past the 1st round with Antonio Davis in 2001 as his 2nd best player and how Tmac never got past the 1st round with Yao Ming as his in 2005 and 2007 and it isn't close.

Also factor in how the Nets were a near playoff team in 2009 with VC to the worst team in the NBA in 2010 without VC and how the Rockets failed to get past he 1st round with McGrady in 2008 and how the Rockets got past the 1st round without McGrady in 2009.

VC is a HOFer, Tmac is borderline, neither are top 50 players of all-time either.

This. Let's not forget VC was one shot away from making ECF in 2001 and the raptors were worse than sixers. Who knows what happens if that shot went in.

[Bigsmoke]

Tmac

[iDefend5]

McGrady hands down
You should elaborate.

[L.Kizzle]

Peak - Tracy McGrady
Prime - Vince Carter
Career - Vince Carter

McGrady's peak was better than Vince Carter's but Vince Carter's prime lasted longer than McGrady's did which is the difference.

Both of these players had the same flaws. Tracy had a worse flaw and that was the fact that he was a bad teammate and an even worse leader. I remember saying that Vince Carter as the most underrated player in 2009 because he was doing a great job in New Jersey at the time. Vince Carter did a great job providing the leadership role in New Jersey after Jason Kidd got traded to Dallas which was in 2008. Vince Carter has the huge intangibles advantage over Tracy McGrady which is another reason why I would go with Vince.

Now factor in how VC got past the 1st round with Antonio Davis in 2001 as his 2nd best player and how Tmac never got past the 1st round with Yao Ming as his in 2005 and 2007 and it isn't close.

Also factor in how the Nets were a near playoff team in 2009 with VC to the worst team in the NBA in 2010 without VC and how the Rockets failed to get past he 1st round with McGrady in 2008 and how the Rockets got past the 1st round without McGrady in 2009.

VC is a HOFer, Tmac is borderline, neither are top 50 players of all-time either.
There prime lasted the same. One had 7 All-NBA teams and the other had only 2.

[ImmortalNemesis]

iDefend5? OP might be RocketsGreatness.

[Fudge]

What's there to argue? Mcgrady and it's not even close.

[FindingTim]

prime McGrady was far superior. where were you?

[Burgz]

Vince had the better potential, more success

T-Mac as a player probably peaked at his full potential, peaked higher than Vince but never sustained it

in their primes? Vince proved he could carry a team to success and Tracy couldn't (despite ridiculous numbers)

people here have very short memories if they forget the season Carter had in '01. He may not have averaged 30+ pts but the team was going to work and beat a VERY tough knicks squad in the first round

in '03 T-Mac was clearly better than Vince, arguably the best wing in the league next to Kobe alone. But if you put it into context Vince had a major knee injury that season and the year before so we never got to see what Vince would have done had he not gotten hurt/not get to see him build on the success in '01

[StateOfMind12]

There prime lasted the same. One had 7 All-NBA teams and the other had only 2.
All-NBA teams really? I prefer thinking for myself, not having others do it for me.

Mcgrady's prime lasted like 5 seasons ('00-'01 to '04-'05) while Carter's prime lasted for like 10 seasons ('99-'00 to '08-'09).




in their primes? Vince proved he could carry a team to success and Tracy couldn't (despite ridiculous numbers)
Exactly, neither were really capable of winning as #1 options either but if you had to pick one, it's hard to not to go with Carter.

Carter got past the 1st round multiple times in his career but I brought up 2001 because he had Antonio Davis and almost no one else. McGrady? He had Yao Ming who was an elite big man, best Center at the time and Shane Battier who was the best perimeter defender in the league. Carter did more with less than Tmac did. It might be not be fair though since that was VC's peak season while McGrady was outside of his prime with Yao and Battier but he did have Yao in his last prime season ('04-'05) so no excuses.

[ImmortalNemesis]

In 05 he had Ryan Bowen, Bob Sura, and David Wesley. Trash.

[Fudge]

Why do people incorporate team success into individual player arguments? I mean it's simple, the question isnt/wasn't team evaluated, or which prime lasted longer between the two. Question was who was the better player in their prime, and it's clearly McGrady.

[StateOfMind12]

Why do people incorporate team success into individual player arguments? I mean it's simple, the question isnt/wasn't team evaluated, or which prime lasted longer between the two. Question was who was the better player in their prime, and it's clearly McGrady.
So you don't think a prime could be better if it is longer? It's not like McGrady was on another level in his peak either. Their peaks were actually comparable and close, Mcgrady clearly had the better peak than VC did but not easily better.

The word you are thinking of is peak.

[Fudge]

So you don't think a prime could be better if it is longer? It's not like McGrady was on another level in his peak either. Their peaks were actually comparable and close, Mcgrady clearly had the better peak than VC did but not easily better.

The word you are thinking of is peak.
Mcgradys "prime" years from 00 to 04 were better individual seasons than Vince has ever produced. Isn't that the OP's question?

[DaHeezy]

Why do people incorporate team success into individual player arguments? I mean it's simple, the question isnt/wasn't team evaluated, or which prime lasted longer between the two. Question was who was the better player in their prime, and it's clearly McGrady.

Agreed. In terms of pure skill there are only a few who could match McGrady during his career. I could only think of Kobe and Lebron with all around talent. Although some of McGrady's skillset was insane. McGrady was such a slick ball handler. Plus his pull up range was almost undefined. Not the greatest 3-point shooter, but he did pull up from 3-4 feet from the 3-point line with ease.

[Beebo]

T-mac was a more complete player. Offensively and defensively, t-mac was the superior player.

On a sidenote, threads like these make me(raptor fan) sad. Just imagine what it could've been if t-mac continued to play with VC on the raps. :(

[StateOfMind12]

Mcgradys "prime" years from 00 to 04 were better individual seasons than Vince has ever produced. Isn't that the OP's question?
I'm not sure but that is not how I would define and compare primes though. I really don't care if your peak was great if you weren't really able to sustain it to that level or even close to that level.

Otherwise I would be telling you Prime Bill Walton was better than Prime Tim Duncan. I think Peak Bill Walton might have been better than Peak Tim Duncan but not prime. There is a slight difference. Another example would be Peak Hakeem over Peak Shaq but not prime Hakeem over prime Shaq.

[moe94]

Peak T-Mac is arguably better than Kobe. No idea why people lop him in with Carter and Iverson.

[Fudge]

I'm not sure but that is not how I would define and compare primes though. I really don't care if your peak was great if you weren't really able to sustain it to that level or even close to that level.

Otherwise I would be telling you Prime Bill Walton was better than Prime Tim Duncan. I think Peak Bill Walton might have been better than Peak Tim Duncan but not prime. There is a slight difference. Another example would be Peak Hakeem over Peak Shaq but not prime Hakeem over prime Shaq.
Huh? Aren't "prime" years their best years as a player statistically/successfully? Or the best of a player they can be? If so I don't see your argument for Vince. McGradys "prime" in 2003 alone was on par with Kobe as the best 2 in the L individually. I considered Carter at his prime 2nd tier with the likes of Ray Allen, Pierce, AI (you can put him up there with Kobe and Mcgrady as well), etc.

I mean sure if anything, the only thing that Carter had on McGrady was that his peak lasted much longer. I'll give him that.

[StateOfMind12]

Huh? Aren't "prime" years their best years as a player statistically/successfully?
I would define this as prime.


Or the best of a player they can be?
......And I define this as peak.

I define Prime by the years in which a player performed at or close to their best. Primes can often be anywhere from 5 to 7 or more years, and for the most part this defines who they were as a player.

[fefe]

I'm a huge VC homer, but I agree with this.
Peak T-Mac should be compared to peak Kobe, and noone else. Tmac is probably better.
T-Mac's peak season is probably ranked very high all time...

Even if we are talking about prime years, from 00-01 to 06-07 T-Mac's was not tmuch shorter than Carter's, who played his best between 99-00 and 06-07, so basically only one year longer.

99-00 T-Mac (15,4 6,3 3,3) < Carter (25,7 5,8 3,9)
00-01 T-Mac (26,8 7,5 4,8) = Carter (27,6 5,5 3,9)
01-02 T-Mac (25,6 7,9 5,3) = Carter (24,7 5,2,4,0)
02-03 T-Mac (32,1 6,5 5,5) > Carter (20,6 4,4 3,3)
03-04 T-Mac (28,0 6,0 5,5) > Carter (22,5 4,8 4,8)
04-05 T-Mac (25,7 6,2 5,7) = Carter (24,5 5,2 4,2)
05-06 T-Mac (24,4 6,5 4,8) = Carter (24,2 5,8 4,3)
06-07 T-Mac (24,6 5,3 6,5) = Carter (25,2 6,0 4,8)
07-08 T-Mac (21,6 5,1 5,9) = Carter (21,3 6,0 5,1)
08-09 T-Mac (15,6 4,4 5,0) < Carter (20,8 5,1 4,7)

I put "=" when the numbers are comparable, even though most of the time T-Mac was slightly better. even this way you can see that T-Mac had a 7 year prime with superstar numbers, while Carter had superstar numbers in only 6 seasons.

McGrady totally fell off after this, while Carter's decline was much slower, but we are comparing primes, and T-Mac wins that easily

[LamarOdom]

I would say Tmac prime and peak were better, his peak can easily be compared to the best all time. His defense was also superior to VC defense.

Tmac and VC was cousins right?

[Dukem]

I would say prime T-Mac was better than Vince Carter and peak wise, T-Mac had a far superior peak.

However career wise, Vince Carter had a superior career. For the majority of T-Macs prime, he had to carry his team on his back so you can't fault him for that.

[L.Kizzle]

If you have VC prime goin to 09, than Mac goes to 08. Just cause he want as good in 07 as he was in 03 doesn't mean he passed his prime. Hell is VCs best season even Macs third best season?

[fefe]

If you have VC prime goin to 09, than Mac goes to 08. Just cause he want as good in 07 as he was in 03 doesn't mean he passed his prime. Hell is VCs best season even Macs third best season?

I had VC's prime till 07...

[Burgz]

Why do people incorporate team success into individual player arguments? I mean it's simple, the question isnt/wasn't team evaluated, or which prime lasted longer between the two. Question was who was the better player in their prime, and it's clearly McGrady.

because basketball is a team sport and numbers alone are not enough to evaluate a player

[Fudge]

I would define this as prime.


......And I define this as peak.

I define Prime by the years in which a player performed at or close to their best. Primes can often be anywhere from 5 to 7 or more years, and for the most part this defines who they were as a player.
So McGrady was easily the best player in their prime if that's how you define it. It really isn't close.

[Fudge]

because basketball is a team sport and numbers alone are not enough to evaluate a player
Yeah but this is a player v player argument. We're not ranking them all time to put team success into account. Mcgrady was the better player, whereas Carter was more successful.

[StateOfMind12]

because basketball is a team sport and numbers alone are not enough to evaluate a player
Agreed, just throwing a bunch of data and seeing who has the better data is not going to prove anything. Basketball is not baseball, it goes beyond production. I feel like a lot of people don't understand the difference between prime and peak and that is why so many people are picking Tracy without even hesitating.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, Carter's prime('00-'07) was longer than McGrady's('01-'05), but McGrady's was better.

Despite T-Mac not being a consistently great defender on a night to night basis, he had the ability and showed it numerous times, far more than Carter did. Carter had the physical tools to be a very good defender, but lacked the effort especially in his early years as well as having a low IQ defensively and poor fundamentals at that end. I think he gave a bit more effort in New Jersey, but he still had a lot of mental lapses at that end and was regularly late with his closeouts. Which isn't to say that T-Mac's defense should be propped up too much. While it's understandable that he couldn't consistently play lockdown defense given his offensive load, he was criticized for his subpar play at that end in '04, and even before then. Regardless, he still has this advantage.

McGrady was also a better passer and his superior ball handling ability made him a better playmaker as well. Vince did really improve in this area though and the gap wasn't as large if you're comparing New Jersey Vince, though T-Mac still has the advantage.

McGrady peaked higher as a scorer, but they were more or less even as scorers, imo. McGrady had better footwork and ball handling skills, but Vince was a better pure shooter as he got a lot more arc on his shot and was also a better free throw shooter.

It's actually funny that Vince was generally equally efficient, or even more efficient than McGrady because watching them, it seemed like T-Mac took better shots. Vince's shot selection was really poor in his early years, regularly taking the most off-balance fadeaways imaginable as he would often not square up towards the basket until he had already jumped and was fading away. He cut down on some of these shots in New Jersey and played smarter, though. And he also seemed to improve as a leader in New Jersey rarely missing games, never having problems with teammates and improving his skills and approach even though he wasn't quite as explosive.

T-Mac had a less successful playoff career as far as team success, but was also a more consistent playoff performer. Vince was great in '01 and very good in '06, but not that good in '00 or '05 and had a disastrous second round series vs Cleveland in '07 after an up and down series vs Toronto.

[iDefend5]

I would say prime T-Mac was better than Vince Carter and peak wise, T-Mac had a far superior peak.

However career wise, Vince Carter had a superior career. For the majority of T-Macs prime, he had to carry his team on his back so you can't fault him for that.
and vc didn't??

[Noob Saibot]

Prime Tracy McGrady was ridiculous, injuries totally messed him up. VC has proven to more durable and reliable than his cousin after coming back from his own injuries.

I think only a Prime LeBron would prove to be more dangerous on the court than a prime T-Mac.

[iDefend5]

Peak T-Mac is arguably better than Kobe. No idea why people lop him in with Carter and Iverson.
Because this isn't a discussion about peak nor is he as good as peak Kobe.