This is why i am a vegan.

[nathanjizzle]

These pigs are locked down in a cage so that they gain fat at a more rapid rate because they cant move.

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7797/piggiesu.jpg

also watch this if you have a soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtZXOdpU1j8&feature=player_embedded#!

[Jasper]

never saw that

thanks for sharing --- - I think

[Cowboy Thunder]

eating animals is fun though

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/870750/82281192.gif

[ace23]

Misread title, got .gifs ready :(

[ZeN]

http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/arquivos_upload/2011/11/102_1729-blog-homer-bacon.jpg

http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/bacon.jpg

[miller-time]

i agree with the first comment on the video


I was shocked, disgusted, sadened and angered to see this video. But I will not become vegeterian. The problem is not eating meat, it is with the industry. The sensless pursuit of profit leads to these atrocities.

By nature, we are not vegeterian. We are omnivores. Our bodies are constructed to eat and digest meat. Vegetarianism is a choice that I respect, but it is a choice.

the problem is with the industry. i would pay a lot more for a steak if it was assured that the animal lived a proper free range life - which i try to do when the option is there, but how well the animal is really treated i don't know.

[Randy]

That's ****ing sick. Heartbreaking.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/da_ifnot.gif

[Cowboy Thunder]

the problem is with the industry. i would pay a lot more for a steak if it was assured that the animal lived a proper free range life - which i try to do when the option is there, but how well the animal is really treated i don't know.

this.


It sure is expensive eating proper though. :cry:

[Randy]

the problem is with the industry. i would pay a lot more for a steak if it was assured that the animal lived a proper free range life - which i try to do when the option is there, but how well the animal is really treated i don't know.

Free range animals still have an execution date. How would it feel to be born and someone has already planned the day of your execution? There is no such thing cruelty free murder.

[Randy]

I never knew there was another vegan on ISH. ****in' A.

[Cowboy Thunder]

Free range animals still have an execution date. How would it feel to be born and someone has already planned the day of your execution? There is no such thing cruelty free murder.

And a bear would eat a human in a heart beat if he was hungry.


Why do humans have to be sympathetic to other animals that we need for survival? They surely aren't sympathetic to us. They just can't kill us cause we are too smart (most of the time).

Classic case of overthinking, itt.

[Scoooter]

And a bear would eat a human in a heart beat if he was hungry.


Why do humans have to be sympathetic to other animals that we need for survival? They surely aren't sympathetic to us. They just can't kill us cause we are too smart (most of the time).

Classic case of overthinking, itt.
Because we're more than just senseless animals. We have the capacity to be better than cruel, heartless nature.

[miller-time]

Free range animals still have an execution date. How would it feel to be born and someone has already planned the day of your execution? There is no such thing cruelty free murder.

yes but there are obviously grades of cruelty. the options aren't just "kill no animals" or "kill them all in a brutal fashion."

people today have been desensitized. if you grew up on a farm and had been around this kind of thing all of your life you probably wouldn't bat an eyelid. at the very least if you were living in tribal times and had to go on a hunt you wouldn't care about killing an animal for food - the problem is though hunting food takes time and resources, a better and more efficient idea is to catch the animals and breed them for food no? and the cycle begins.

[TheSilentKiller]

My god zen that gif is disturbing.

Edit: I guess it got deleted.

[Cowboy Thunder]

Because we're more than just senseless animals. We have the capacity to be better than cruel, heartless nature.

It'd be senseless not to kill animals.

Ever heard of over-population? Why do you think we have deer hunting season in American? Deer are harbors for disease and dangerous (vehicle accidents being #1) to our society.

[Randy]

And a bear would eat a human in a heart beat if he was hungry.

It's carnivorous instinct, of which human beings have none. Go and catch and a rabbit and tear it apart with your bear hands and eat all flesh, innards, eyes, and bones. That's what carnivores can do.



Why do humans have to be sympathetic to other animals that we need for survival? They surely aren't sympathetic to us. They just can't kill us cause we are too smart (most of the time)

Jesus. Re-read that, please. Why do we have to be sympathetic? Are you a robot, or just soulless? As the ones in power, it is our duty to lessen the suffering of all sentient beings. Pets are protected, why are pigs, cows, chickens, and turkeys an exception? It just doesn't make sense. And to think we need animal flesh, blood, and tendons to survive... you couldn't be more wrong. Animal products are actually killing people, while plants are saving lives. The research and facts are out there to back it up.

And exactly, we are too smart. Which is exactly why we should use our abilities to reason and feel empathy for these tortured innocent animals.


Classic case of overthinking, itt.

Lack of thinking on your part. I am vegan because I DO think. I'm not trying to attack you, sorry if it seems that way, but the lack of empathy and compassion for innocent and suffering being fills me with rage.

[Cowboy Thunder]

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7797/piggiesu.jpg


http://images.wikia.com/matrix/images/b/b7/Free_yourself_from_the_Matrix!.jpg


The pigs are living in the matrix :wtf:

[Scoooter]

It'd be senseless not to kill animals.

Ever heard of over-population? Why do you think we have deer hunting season in American? Deer are harbors for disease and dangerous (vehicle accidents being #1) to our society.
It's a big problem with people too. To the murder mobile!

[Cowboy Thunder]

It's a big problem with people too. To the murder mobile!
:lol

Nice straw man, but tobacco, processed foods, and motor vehicles keep elbow room in the states.

[Randy]

yes but there are obviously grades of cruelty. the options aren't just "kill no animals" or "kill them all in a brutal fashion."

I am obviously always in support of minimizing suffering, but it is still mass genocide of epic proportions.


people today have been desensitized. if you grew up on a farm and had been around this kind of thing all of your life you probably wouldn't bat an eyelid. at the very least if you were living in tribal times and had to go on a hunt you wouldn't care about killing an animal for food - the problem is though hunting food takes time and resources, a better and more efficient idea is to catch the animals and breed them for food no? and the cycle begins.

People have been desensitized in a sense, but I guarantee 80%, it not more, of the population couldn't watch that video link in its entirety. People aren't bad (well, some are obviously) but they have blinders on. Ignorance is bliss, and there are few areas where that rings more true than factory farming.

Not to mention, factory farming contributes more pollutants than all of the automobile pollution around the world combined. And the number one reason humans are cutting down the rain forests? Factory farms.

So by eating animals products, we are killing ourselves, killing the planet, and killing the animals. It just doesn't make sense.

[Scoooter]

:lol

Nice straw man, but tobacco, processed foods, and motor vehicles keep elbow room in the states.
Not as fun as the Murder Mobile though.

[CelticBaller]

yummy

[miller-time]

It just doesn't make sense.

well it does, short term profit and tasty tasty meat.

but seriously i do agree with what you are saying, and i think serious reforms to the industry need to happen. however the part where i have no qualms is the simple moral question of killing an animal to eat it. disregarding industry practices and looking at it on just that level i am fine with it and i quite enjoy meat (but i don't eat that much actually).

[Jello]

Pretty sad. Still gonna eat meat though.

[Jameerthefear]

Immediately thought of this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tFxMd572UwI

[Cowboy Thunder]

well it does, short term profit and tasty tasty meat.

but seriously i do agree with what you are saying, and i think serious reforms to the industry need to happen. however the part where i have no qualms is the simple moral question of killing an animal to eat it. disregarding industry practices and looking at it on just that level i am fine with it and i quite enjoy meat (but i don't eat that much actually).

This is a cruel response, and I'm really not as awful as I may seem in this thread but....

Thinking economically, can the US afford such reforms at the time being? In a day where we live with the highest quality food inspection/production...can we really bootstrap the industry and kill revenue and hurt US GDP?

food for thought..

[Kblaze8855]

So by eating animals products, we are killing ourselves

Except that we are living longer than ever. Medical advances and things to keep us safe from nature in general far outdistance our unhealthy eating habits far as impact on lifespan.

And people who dont eat meat dont live longer because they dont eat meat. They livel onger because they tend to be health minded people who take care of themselves. Im quite sure the average vegan is gonna exercise more than the average american. And be less likely to smoke. And generally be a do nothing fatass. Its not the meat...its the person deciding not to eat it. People who eat meat and take care of themselves are perfectly healthy.



killing the planet

The planet is not going to die. Worst case...we wipe ourselves out. The planet is cool.


and killing the animals.

And? Animals are in the food chain. Have been for billions of years. Just because in the last few thousand years a few people decided not to eat meat doesnt mean its the natural order of things. We dont have canine teeth to grind up roots and our species didnt survive on eating grasses.

No we dont currently NEED meat. We dont really need any individual kind of food. But that doesnt mean we should stop eating everything but water, vitamins, and whatever bit of other matter needed to keep our hearts beating. Factory farms suck but there isnt a better way im aware of to meet the demand. If people only ate al ittlem eat as we did for generations maybe then...but not as the world is now. Not the "first" world at least.

Animals on the bottom of the food chain are prey. Always were. Always will be. If we arent eating deer something else will. They arent all nervous wrecks ready to bolt at a moment notice because they fear human hunters. Millions of years of being prey makes them that way.

The extreme majority of animals born in the wild never even grow up. Its a harsh world. But its the world we have.



It just doesn't make sense.


Eat a nice steak. It starts to make sense.


For the record...I hate the idea of hunting for sport. hate it. Feels weak to me to take a gun and shoot something that has no idea you are there and call it sport. But im not gonna say someone who kills to eat is a bad person because of it.

[dunksby]

I refuse to be a vegan and this is why:

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/worker_tends_cucumber_plants_in_a_greenhouse_heate d_1604129.jpg

[IGOTGAME]

No we dont currently NEED meat. We dont really need any individual kind of food. But that doesnt mean we should stop eating everything but water, vitamins, and whatever bit of other matter needed to keep our hearts beating. Factory farms suck but there isnt a better way im aware of to meet the demand. If people only ate al ittlem eat as we did for generations maybe then...but not as the world is now. Not the "first" world at least.

Animals on the bottom of the food chain are prey. Always were. Always will be. If we are eating deer something else will. They arent all nervous wrecks ready to bolt at a moment notice because they fear human hunters. Millions of years of being prey makes them that way.

The extreme majority of animals born in the wild never even grow up. Its a harsh world. But its the world we have.



Eat a nice steak. It starts to make sense.

hmm....They were always prey, they will always be prey. Good way to solve the philosophical debate.

[Draz]

I don't really eat pork like that. I don't understand some people with their weird "ill pay more money if the animal lived a happier less lethal life" either ways your going to eat it hypocrite. if your truly against it then be a vegan. I'm against animal cruelty. paying for a $30 meal at a steak house and I won't eat it because the chef told me the animal was one of the above pics will I eat it? yea wtf. will it make me feel bad? yes. not to the extreme.

[miller-time]

This is a cruel response, and I'm really not as awful as I may seem in this thread but....

Thinking economically, can the US afford such reforms at the time being? In a day where we live with the highest quality food inspection/production...can we really bootstrap the industry and kill revenue and hurt US GDP?

food for thought..

not sure, i'm australian. but we have a similar situation here where we send our livestock to indonesia to be slaughtered in their abattoirs (which are just awful). the problem is that it is more feasible and necessary (they have little to no storage capability so the animals need to be freshly killed) to send them live rather than slaughtering them here. unfortunately this is a major export deal for our country and stopping it would cause economic problems and large amounts of job loss in the farming industry. what do you do?

my only guess is that gradual reforms would have to occur. you can't just places taxes and restrictions on everything over night, but i'm sure some eventual equilibrium can reached over time (obviously the price of meat will rise and hopefully demand won't suffer too much as a consequence).

if anyone is interested here is a video made last year on the australian/indonesian livestock industry (it sounds boring but it really is interesting, the state of the indonesian abattoirs is tragic and a lot of the cruel practices are justified by appealing to islamic beliefs), not sure if it works internationally though? it is the link on the left hand side: http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20110530/cattle/

[MMM]

Correct me if I'm wrong but because of how our stomachs are designed proteins/other nutrients are more accessible from meat products than vegetables.

[MMM]

Except that we are living longer than ever. Medical advances and things to keep us safe from nature in general far outdistance our unhealthy eating habits far as impact on lifespan.

And people who dont eat meat dont live longer because they dont eat meat. They livel onger because they tend to be health minded people who take care of themselves. Im quite sure the average vegan is gonna exercise more than the average american. And be less likely to smoke. And generally be a do nothing fatass. Its not the meat...its the person deciding not to eat it. People who eat meat and take care of themselves are perfectly healthy.




The planet is not going to die. Worst case...we wipe ourselves out. The planet is cool.



And? Animals are in the food chain. Have been for billions of years. Just because in the last few thousand years a few people decided not to eat meat doesnt mean its the natural order of things. We dont have canine teeth to grind up roots and our species didnt survive on eating grasses.

No we dont currently NEED meat. We dont really need any individual kind of food. But that doesnt mean we should stop eating everything but water, vitamins, and whatever bit of other matter needed to keep our hearts beating. Factory farms suck but there isnt a better way im aware of to meet the demand. If people only ate al ittlem eat as we did for generations maybe then...but not as the world is now. Not the "first" world at least.

Animals on the bottom of the food chain are prey. Always were. Always will be. If we arent eating deer something else will. They arent all nervous wrecks ready to bolt at a moment notice because they fear human hunters. Millions of years of being prey makes them that way.

The extreme majority of animals born in the wild never even grow up. Its a harsh world. But its the world we have.



Eat a nice steak. It starts to make sense.


For the record...I hate the idea of hunting for sport. hate it. Feels weak to me to take a gun and shoot something that has no idea you are there and call it sport. But im not gonna say someone who kills to eat is a bad person because of it.

Agreed the Planet is fine
the People are f**ked
pack your sh*t folks
we're going away

[johndeeregreen]

For the record...I hate the idea of hunting for sport. hate it. Feels weak to me to take a gun and shoot something that has no idea you are there and call it sport. But im not gonna say someone who kills to eat is a bad person because of it.
If you eat what you kill, it's no different than buying a cut of meat at the supermarket.

[MMM]

If you eat what you kill, it's no different than buying a cut of meat at the supermarket.

How so?????

[IGOTGAME]

check out this site for info on the debate. Or read the guys books. Im not turning vegans but he will raise some interesting ethical questions and has answered every question you can think of regarding the debate 100 times already.

http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/

[flipogb]

Pigs would eat you along with your clothes and shoes if they could.

[hoopaddict08]

If you eat what you kill, it's no different than buying a cut of meat at the supermarket.

Actually it is. I would much rather eat what I killed compared to eating what's at the supermarket. I work in a meat/seafood department at Kroger. Companies like IBP, Excel add stuff to their meat. Even little things like color to make farm-raised Salmon that nice reddish/pinkish color.

[Hazard]

The meat industry is designed to function at top efficiency, produce the most meat per animal, and in the shortest amount of time. That's how things work in capitalist society. You not eating meat will do nothing to harm the industry, you are only harming yourself by not giving your body the necessary protein and nutrients it needs that is only available in meat.

The farming industry is not any better, countless natural habitats have been destroyed to clear space for agriculture. The pesticides and all the additives poison the areas around them as well. So if you want to boycott cruelty to animals, then you gotta stop eating completely.

I get where you're coming from and I agree with you that its ****ed up, but depriving yourself of essentials to make a statement is not hurting anyone but yourself.

[Meticode]

Pigs would eat you along with your clothes and shoes if they could.
The wild pig or boar scene from Hannibal popped into my head.

[vinsane01]

Some theories suggest that our drive to consume meat, a high protein source, was an essential requirement that drove us to develop larger brains. Our brains needs lots of energy and meat contains lots of calories. Like dogs and wolves we have canine teeth for a reason. We are omnivores like others had previously said here.

I didnt watch the video but i presume it's a video about maltreatment of livestock. To which i say, we can do better and there is a more ethical process. As we became demonstrably self conscious and intelligent, we also developed the ability to think rationally and morally, we should act as so.

[magic chiongson]

I refuse to be a vegan and this is why:

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/worker_tends_cucumber_plants_in_a_greenhouse_heate d_1604129.jpg

i think about my old cannabis plant and feel terrible about this pic

[QuebecBaller]

If I can enjoy more all the vegetables, I think I would become vegetarian (but not a vegan), because this kind of pictures touch me a lot. But eating what you don't like it's kind of a hard thing to do

[Randy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but because of how our stomachs are designed proteins/other nutrients are more accessible from meat products than vegetables.

You are wrong. 100% wrong. Our saliva has enzymes to break down carbohydrates. Our intestinal track is not designed for animal flesh, compare ours to a wolf or a bear or any animal that is actually a carnivore. Humans are built to be herbivores, fact.

And 2nd, pandas and apes have canine teeth, if you think canine teeth alone designate an animal a carnivore, you're an idiot.

And the "protein" you all worry about is a joke. Per calorie, broccoli and asparagus both have more than twice the protein of beef, not to mention nuts and legumes. I guarantee I eat more more protein than 80% of America's meat eaters, plus zero cholesterol or disgusting animal saturated fats :roll:

[Randy]

I'm done preaching to people who consciously inflict pain and suffering on others and justify it. I don't view any of you as my enemy, I just wish that you would take a critical, and objective view and show some empathy for the animals who are suffering at the hands of an abominable industry.


Peace and love my friends. Extend it to the animals :rockon:


Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace.

-Albert Schweitzer


Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.

- Thomas Edison

[-p.tiddy-]

Randy is vegan?

:wtf:

you're such a massive **** sucker to humans that I never would have guessed you gave a shit about animal life...

[-p.tiddy-]

My GF is a vegaterian...not Vegan

I eat meat, she has no issues with that...


I too would pay extra for farm animals not torchered but their execution isn't torcher IMO...farm animals would not even exist if we didn't consume them. That is their purpose in life, that is why us humans created them...to eat.

[c3z4r]

Whenever i listen to vegans and hear their theories i simply link them up with this article that my high school math teacher once read in class:

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

[Kblaze8855]

hmm....They were always prey, they will always be prey. Good way to solve the philosophical debate.

Pretty much every animal that exists in the wild is destined to be eaten. just a matter of when.

We create animals to eat instead of killing those in the wild(for the most part). But an animal that lives...is going to die and be eaten by something. be it the vultures and so on after a full life or being killed at 3 days old by a predator.

Everything that cant prevent its demise gets eaten...then those that manage to prevent it a long time...get eaten anyway.

Humans arent unusually cruel. Humans are one part of a very cruel world. The idea that because we are smart enough to find a way to live without doing what is in our nature....we shouldnt eat meat? Its just absurd to me.

Humanity isnt yet ready to help our fellow man. But we need to be worried about saving animals? Most people on this planet arent even in position to turn down food. Im not telling a family in the Amazon living off the river to not eat fish and dig for some gotdamn roots because they could probably still manage to live.

The vegan shit is cool with me...if they just shut up about it. do what you feel. I dont need to hear about it. until Star Trek life replicators exist to create meat from nothing the world will NEVER stop eating animals.

So what we could continue to exist? we could live without indoor plumbing, electricity and blowjobs too. But we arent gonna give them up. why would we? Because mining for the metals to allow indoor plumbing ruins the earth and electricity is often generated in ecosystem damaging ways(Dams especially)?

**** outta here.

[IGOTGAME]

Pretty much every animal that exists in the wild is destined to be eaten. just a matter of when.

We create animals to eat instead of killing those in the wild(for the most part). But an animal that lives...is going to die and be eaten by something. be it the vultures and so on after a full life or being killed at 3 days old by a predator.

Everything that cant prevent its demise gets eaten...then those that manage to prevent it a long time...get eaten anyway.

Humans arent unusually cruel. Humans are one part of a very cruel world. The idea that because we are smart enough to find a way to live without doing what is in our nature....we shouldnt eat meat? Its just absurd to me.

Humanity isnt yet ready to help our fellow man. But we need to be worried about saving animals? Most people on this planet arent even in position to turn down food. Im not telling a family in the Amazon living off the river to not eat fish and dig for some gotdamn roots because they could probably still manage to live.

The vegan shit is cool with me...if they just shut up about it. do what you feel. I dont need to hear about it. until Star Trek life replicators exist to create meat from nothing the world will NEVER stop eating animals.

So what we could continue to exist? we could live without indoor plumbing, electricity and blowjobs too. But we arent gonna give them up. why would we? Because mining for the metals to allow indoor plumbing ruins the earth and electricity is often generated in ecosystem damaging ways(Dams especially)?

**** outta here.

it is simply a matter of logic and hypocrisy or cruelty. I choose to be a hypocrite but I don't pretend to get around the whole thing because "it is absurd to me."

I am for unnecessarily inflicting pain on sentient beings because I think they taste good.

Introduction to Animal Rights: Your Child or the Dog?
Gary L. Francione
Temple University Press, 2000
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/media/images/introduction-to-animal-rights.jpg


you should check out this book. it goes into the issues you have brought up in depth. food for thought.

[Hazard]

You are wrong. 100% wrong. Our saliva has enzymes to break down carbohydrates. Our intestinal track is not designed for animal flesh, compare ours to a wolf or a bear or any animal that is actually a carnivore. Humans are built to be herbivores, fact.

And 2nd, pandas and apes have canine teeth, if you think canine teeth alone designate an animal a carnivore, you're an idiot.

And the "protein" you all worry about is a joke. Per calorie, broccoli and asparagus both have more than twice the protein of beef, not to mention nuts and legumes. I guarantee I eat more more protein than 80% of America's meat eaters, plus zero cholesterol or disgusting animal saturated fats :roll:
You miss out on essential amino acids. I'm sure you can substitute protein with other shit, but there are essential nutrients in meat that work to strengthen your body.

[BankShot]

I bet those pigs will be f*cking delicious

[Kblaze8855]

Humans are built to be herbivores, fact.

Saying the word "fact" doesnt make it one.

And even if you believe humans arent designed to eat meat....sure seems odd we were not designed to eat what we have since before we were even modern humans. What...cavemen were eating corn? The apes we evolved from ate meat. Australopithecus...the so called "missing link" ate meat. They have found bones cut with stone tools with the marrow dug out alongside them. What do you think they were doing with it? Making marrow figurines? Chimps eat meat. Orangutans eat meat.

We are omnivores. As are most things with teeth even somewhat similar to us. You watch them enough a lot of things people mention as vegetarians arent.

Hell you mentioned pandas......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ctjcN33Gw


You think thats the first time a panda ate meat? Pandas like most things eat what is available and if they do it long enough and teach the younger generations long enough it becomes assumed thats all they can eat. But its rarely true. animals like us...and pandas...come fro ma common ancestor if you go back far enough. And that common ancestor ate meat.

Even cows have been caught eating chickens on farms when they have access to them. Pigs eat everything. Ive seen a hippo eat a zebra.

The idea that not eating meat is natural for animals like us is just ignoring reality.

Even many small monkeys that live in fruit trees will eat insects.

Koalas far as I know eat only the trees they live in but I strongly suspect that before they became koalas who ate only one thing they were something slightly different that ate what it had to.

Things that eat only vegetables do so because they can live off it and have no reason to eat anything else. Things like bears and...humans.

We are not built to eat any one thing in particular. give a bear enough fruit he might not hunt for a while. Give me a mango and im cool. But if some bacon is around...**** it.

And there is nothing wrong with it. Its what we are...and have been. We have been eating meat since before land animals crawled from the sea.

And most things that flat out dont eat meat...only dont because they have evolved into creatures that arent capable of it or they live with such an abundance of vegetable matter for so long they lose the tools to catch prey. And even plenty of those animals will eat meat given the chance(Cows...horses...pandas...an awful lot of supposed herbivores are proven to eat meat...and it isnt in life or death situation either)

Most everything that can eat whatever it needs....will eat whatever it can get a hold of. If there is an entire country of grass and they can eat grass...eventually thats all they do.

But plenty of animals people dont suspect will eat anything in the right situation.

I had a cat that ate green beans and cabbage for me when i was a kid.....

[MMM]

You are wrong. 100% wrong. Our saliva has enzymes to break down carbohydrates. Our intestinal track is not designed for animal flesh, compare ours to a wolf or a bear or any animal that is actually a carnivore. Humans are built to be herbivores, fact.

And 2nd, pandas and apes have canine teeth, if you think canine teeth alone designate an animal a carnivore, you're an idiot.

And the "protein" you all worry about is a joke. Per calorie, broccoli and asparagus both have more than twice the protein of beef, not to mention nuts and legumes. I guarantee I eat more more protein than 80% of America's meat eaters, plus zero cholesterol or disgusting animal saturated fats :roll:

First I was speaking solely about our stomachs and speaking about how efficiently we digest meats compared to vegetables. Also I didn't make any claim about canine teeth making us a Carnivore.

[MMM]

this will sound stupid but why is it not cruel to eat plants. I mean is there a difference between ending a life of plant and animal. This will sound crazy but I've come across people who think plants like other living feel pain but have no way to express it.

[golddigger31]

I don't agree with your statement, because plants lack a central nervous system and a brain, both which are necessary to register the feeling of pain. Pain can be experienced in a way that scientists can chart, just as you can with humans, be it crying, shaking, or learned helplessness.
Even if we lacked the technology sensitive enough to prove that plants feel pain, plants are very different from animals in this case. One, they lack the necessary physiology to register a painful response. Any being that can feel pain also has been equipped through evolution to remove themselves from the cause of threat or pain. second, plants do not have emotional needs that need to be met in order to survive, like humans and animals. A calf that has been restricted will become depressed or helpless because his rights to normal grazing instincts have been taken away.
We know that animals have the capacity to suffer, and that, to me is a reason to not be a part of the industry.

[Kblaze8855]

The usual answer I believe is that plants dont have nerves we are aware of so we cant assume they feel pain.

But really...its nearly impossible to lead a bloodless life. animals are in too many products. From gel capsules, to sodas, and all sorts of non food products. I have basketballs made of animals, my car seats are leather, and even if I got cloth id be supporting a company that no doubt is behind the deaths of many cows for those who want leather...I can only imagine how many animals died just to produce many vegetables. How many rats and other ground mammals you think try to eat produce as its growing? how do you think thats prevented? My grandpa couldnt keep rabbits out of his field with anything but his rifle. Im sure massive farms have similar issues with birds and little creatures. I wonder how many animals die when you run a harvesting machine through a 10 square mile field of grains.

A lot of organic foods are grown with such natural fertilizer as ground up fish parts or shit harvested from huge vats of earthworms.

But we only choose to count some animals. The fact that something must die for us to live our lives is largely ignored.

[LBJMVP]

i seriously do not understand why people dont eat meat.

animals are not equal to humans and that is a fact

we need them to survive, and i guarantee you that i, along with most every human being, will not feel the same if we do not consume meat or anything else that involves animals.


humans are the most intelligent beings on the planet and anything below us needs to die if it makes us better.

animals can kill humans all they wants and hipster will always come up with an excuse such as... "you guys were enticing that alligator/lion/shark and that is why they attacked you."

that isnt true because as far as we know animals dont have a conscience. and sure you can say that cows, chicken, fish, bulls, and other animals wouldnt attack us if we didnt bother them, but picture humanity if everyone was vegetarians

that means, no milk, no cheese, no meat, no eggs, anything except vegetable, fruits, tofu, and all that other bullshit.

i know people have pet dogs, and cats but IMO those are the only pets that are expelled from being eaten (even dogs are eaten in some countries).



but come the F*ck on!!!!

according to science plants are just as alive as humans so you are almost murdering anything that is edible....

[MMM]

I don't agree with your statement, because plants lack a central nervous system and a brain, both which are necessary to register the feeling of pain. Pain can be experienced in a way that scientists can chart, just as you can with humans, be it crying, shaking, or learned helplessness.
Even if we lacked the technology sensitive enough to prove that plants feel pain, plants are very different from animals in this case. One, they lack the necessary physiology to register a painful response. Any being that can feel pain also has been equipped through evolution to remove themselves from the cause of threat or pain. second, plants do not have emotional needs that need to be met in order to survive, like humans and animals. A calf that has been restricted will become depressed or helpless because his rights to normal grazing instincts have been taken away.
We know that animals have the capacity to suffer, and that, to me is a reason to not be a part of the industry.

hmm, i remember reading a few years ago a study about how plants respond to threats by emitting chemicals to defend against pests. Wouldn't that be removing them selves from a threat???

[MMM]

i seriously do not understand why people dont eat meat.

animals are not equal to humans and that is a fact

we need them to survive, and i guarantee you that i, along with most every human being, will not feel the same if we do not consume meat or anything else that involves animals.


humans are the most intelligent beings on the planet and anything below us needs to die if it makes us better.

animals can kill humans all they wants and hipster will always come up with an excuse such as... "you guys were enticing that alligator/lion/shark and that is why they attacked you."

that isnt true because as far as we know animals dont have a conscience. and sure you can say that cows, chicken, fish, bulls, and other animals wouldnt attack us if we didnt bother them, but picture humanity if everyone was vegetarians

that means, no milk, no cheese, no meat, no eggs, anything except vegetable, fruits, tofu, and all that other bullshit.

i know people have pet dogs, and cats but IMO those are the only pets that are expelled from being eaten (even dogs are eaten in some countries).



but come the F*ck on!!!!

according to science plants are just as alive as humans so you are almost murdering anything that is edible....

We've come along way but I've always questioned how intelligent we actually are. We're so intelligent but not to the point that we can live with in our means.

[Kblaze8855]

I do wonder at times where plants are headed. Plenty of plants can move. Usually to get better sunlight. a few inches a day maybe. some can move almost at will. Like this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Mimosa_Pudica.gif

I guess it doesnt have...nerves....but it has something. It knows its being touched. They sell them some places because kids like to touch them to see them react. In a few billion years who knows....

I had a venus flytrap for a while. Was pretty cool. i was feeding it all kinds of bullshit. hotdog bits and all. Id have been upset if someone killed it. it wasnt a pet...but it was...something. It was alive. it moved. It ate animals.....

Bit of a gray area I guess.

[LBJMVP]

We've come along way but I've always questioned how intelligent we actually are. We're so intelligent but not to the point that we can live with in our means.


i know i posted originally that i dont understand how humans can be vegetarians, but i do have family member that refuse to eat anything that has to do with things that are alive. my own family gives me this arguement, and i know that if you are a vegetarian long enough that you get sick if you eat any type of meat, but i dont understand their argument because technically plants and tree... ect.. are alive as well.

[MMM]

I can understand why people are vegetarian or vegan but what I don't like is when they try to force their views on others. Just like they probably wouldn't appreciate meat eaters who force their views on them. With that being said I say we probably should be eating a mix of meats, fruits, nuts, vegetables because there is a reason why we are able to eat various amounts of foods. It is understandable that people want to limit the suffering of animals but I don't think the solution is not to eat mean but make the necessary reforms to the food industry.

[Joshumitsu]

I was somewhat a vegan for a short duration, eating nothing but soy burgers, chips, salad, and drinking soy milk w/ my cereal. Occasionally, I had some sandwiches w/ ham and mozzarella. Because of budget restraints, however, I ended up quitting. Now I'm eating more low quality meats and processed foods than ever before :(.

It sucks because I'm trying to commit myself to building an aerobic base for longer distance running. However, low intensity cardio causes me to lose muscle. It doesn't help either that I have a super fast metabolism.

165 lbs of muscle last year and now I'm at 142 lbs of skinny fat. God, it just feels so freaking weird being in this body shape. I can't wait until I get out of the aerobic phase.

Anyway, that's beside the point. I really feel bad for the animals being treated this way by a bunch of....well, stereotypically "redneck rancher" types/industries. That's still not the reason I'd ever go vegetarian/vegan though.

[Nick Young]

These pigs are locked down in a cage so that they gain fat at a more rapid rate because they cant move.

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7797/piggiesu.jpg

also watch this if you have a soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtZXOdpU1j8&feature=player_embedded#!
looks tasty

[Cowboy Thunder]

KBlaze was pwnin this thread for a while :applause:

[vinsane01]

You are wrong. 100% wrong. Our saliva has enzymes to break down carbohydrates. Our intestinal track is not designed for animal flesh, compare ours to a wolf or a bear or any animal that is actually a carnivore. Humans are built to be herbivores, fact.

And 2nd, pandas and apes have canine teeth, if you think canine teeth alone designate an animal a carnivore, you're an idiot.

And the "protein" you all worry about is a joke. Per calorie, broccoli and asparagus both have more than twice the protein of beef, not to mention nuts and legumes. I guarantee I eat more more protein than 80% of America's meat eaters, plus zero cholesterol or disgusting animal saturated fats :roll:

I guess the 2nd half of your post is a response to mine, so i feel the need to react.

No having canine teeth isnt the only reason why i think we are part carnivore. Also as kblaze had mentioned pandas are also capable of eating meat (good posts by kblaze btw). Other non human apes like the chimps eat meat as well; from what i know some eat smaller monkeys. So yeah canine teeth are there not as an accidental trait, it was/is a necessary evolutionary trait which we and our ancestors used to cut meat more efficiently. At worst it's a vestigial trait. If some herbivores have it, it's because their ancestors eat meat and when they chose to eat vegies specifically it was rendered useless.

Also, herbivores have a more complicated digestive tract than ours. We have a stomach and a small and large intestine. Herbivores like cows have more chambers which they need for storage and to digest cellulose. We have an appendix (it actually has some immunological uses so it isnt completely useless), regardless we can live without it and it is considered simply as a vestigial trait of a similar chamber left out when our ancestors started eating meat.

I dont know how much calories different kinds of meat has compared to other vegetables. But meat as a source of calories is not confined to proteins. It also has fats; i reckon it has a lot more LDL but it has some HDL too, the good cholesterol! : ) But yeah, fats are converted by our bodies as simple carbs as well. Plus meat and other meat parts are diverse in nutrients. Sure some vegies like that brocolli and asparagus are full of proteins and other goody nutrients but try explaining that to a homo habilis, erectus. :D And during times of famine and when the population started to grow, early humans might've found meat as a more accessible and abundant source than plants.

[vinsane01]

Here's another interesting proposition ive read somewhere, it turns out the shrinkage of our jaw size was necessary for our brains to grow. And it started to get smaller 2 million years ago, the same time our ancestors started eating meat. Consequently, our prefrontal cortex grew, which is the part of the brain responsible for cognition and personality.

[rufuspaul]

Here's another interesting proposition ive read somewhere, it turns out the shrinkage of our jaw size was necessary for our brains to grow.

We also learned to cook meat and use utensils thereby losing the necessity to rip flesh with our teeth.

[hennigplex]

This is why I am a vegan.

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/themiz_101/daniel%20bryan/db3.png

[JohnnySic]

Raising animals for consumption is woefully inefficient. Pretty soon, we're going to be raising synthetic meat in the laboratory. No different than all the synthetic "food products" that presently line supermarket shelves.

And if you think you wont eat it, yes you will.

[rufuspaul]

Raising animals for consumption is woefully inefficient. Pretty soon, we're going to be raising synthetic meat in the laboratory. No different than all the synthetic "food products" that presently line supermarket shelves.

And if you think you wont eat it, yes you will.


More reason to support your local farmer. I try to buy all my pork, beef and poultry from 2 local farms that sell at our regional farmer's market. All of it is organic free range and the beef is grass fed. More expensive yes but if you care about these things it's important. Plus the quality of the meat is exceptional.

[NotYetGreat]

^ Yeah, Been trying to convince my mom that we should start buying from the farmers market instead of the hormone-filled crap that's flooding groceries everywhere.

While the pic in the OP definitely upset me (heck, even pissed me off a bit), it doesn't want me to go vegan at all. It just makes me more pissed that big, commercial livestock growers/meat companies.

[pauk]

I was shocked, disgusted, sadened and angered to see this video. But I will not become vegeterian. The problem is not eating meat, it is with the industry. The senseless pursuit of profit leads to these atrocities.

By nature, we are not vegeterian. We are omnivores. Our bodies are constructed to eat and digest meat. Vegetarianism is a choice that I respect, but it is a choice.


this

but pig, i will never eat.. no matter what.. they are scavengers/carnivores/omnivores/cannibals and everything, they eat meat, other pigs, they eat their shit, other living beings shit, they eat mud, drink piss, others piss... their physique is based & created on these.. "calories"....

and you eat it... and have it in your system.... and now you grow up with these... "calories"...

there is a reason pig meat is extremly unhealthy...

there is a reason consumption of ONLY pigs (of all the living beings on planet earth) is forbidden among Muslims, Jews, certain Christian denominations and some others..

[MMM]

this

but pig, i will never eat.. no matter what.. they are scavengers/carnivores/omnivores/cannibals and everything, they eat meat, other pigs, they eat their shit, other living beings shit, they eat mud, drink piss, others piss... their physique is based & created on these.. "calories"....

and you eat it... and have it in your system.... and now you grow up with these... "calories"...

there is a reason pig meat is extremly unhealthy...

there is a reason consumption of ONLY pigs (of all the living beings on planet earth) is forbidden among Muslims, Jews, certain Christian denominations and some others..

Exactly, just stick to eating herbivores that get their nutrients from plants additionally they are better able to digest the nutrients from plants than animals that eat meat.

[millwad]

I haven't had any meat for 4 years, meat always disgusted me, even as a child.. Couldn't really stand it and plus the fact that the meat industry is really horrible, I never wanted to know what acually happened to the animals before and at the slaughter house but I stopped avoiding it and downloaded a documentary and I just couldn't eat meat after that.

It's a shame that people label all vegetarians/vegans as extreme tree huggers, sure, people never believe me when I tell them that I don't eat meat since I'm 6'7 and well trained and play in the swedish basketball league. It bothers me that many think that vegetarians are unnormal and odd..

But I should say this, being vegetarian is something you have to choose yourself and therefor I've never spread my views about it to anyone, sure, if someone ask I will tell them but I've never tried to convert anyone to vegetarianism. I live with my girlfriend and she loves meat and we've never even discussed it but at the same time, if someone tells me to eat meat I just tell them to shut up and mind their own business.

Mutual respect is important, people always bit*h over vegetarians spamming about vegetarianism but the ignorance I've dealt with from people who eats meat is just stupid.

[Balla_Status]

This is why I eat meat:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1x6UqM7cpSw/TZYV-WrDw6I/AAAAAAAAAGI/r48iyJFfLlc/s1600/5d3b3871c47f837d602d7a316134b35c.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

Pigs in america eat what everything else eats. Corn.

[LBJ 23]

but pig, i will never eat.. no matter what.. they are scavengers/carnivores/omnivores/cannibals and everything, they eat meat, other pigs, they eat their shit, other living beings shit, they eat mud, drink piss, others piss... their physique is based & created on these.. "calories"....

.


Chickens or turkeys also eat all of the things you mentioned if they have access to

[MMM]

Pigs in america eat what everything else eats. Corn.

True

[Kblaze8855]

It's a shame that people label all vegetarians/vegans as extreme tree huggers

I know several vegetarians. Lifetime vegetarians. And im sure there are plenty I know...who I dont know about. Those types dont bug me at all. I dont care what any man eats. But shit like this pisses me off:

http://suitablyflip.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/peta.jpg

PETA flyer they handed out to children trying to make their parents look evil...they call fish water kittens.

Big difference between choosing to eat meat and acting like eating meat is wrong because you decided to eat something else after 30 million generations of humanity eating a wide variety of foods.

[millwad]

I know several vegetarians. Lifetime vegetarians. And im sure there are plenty I know...who I dont know about. Those types dont bug me at all. I dont care what any man eats. But shit like this pisses me off:

http://suitablyflip.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/peta.jpg

PETA flyer they handed out to children trying to make their parents look evil...they call fish water kittens.

Big difference between choosing to eat meat and acting like eating meat is wrong because you decided to eat something else after 30 million generations of humanity eating a wide variety of foods.

I feel you, even though PETA is doing alot of great stuff they do alot of their stuff all extreme and silly which is sad. Instead of spreading knowledge, awareness and facts they fail so often because they highlight silly subjects and their message often gets overlooked because they market it too extreme.

And PETA is not alone, Greenpeace is way worse. I worked for them a couple of summers ago and they waste all their money on garbage campaigns no one even takes seriously.

And sure, I won't lie, I would definitely want everyone to be vegeterians but in the end of the day we are all individuals with own feelings, thoughts and beliefs and my right is not everyone elses right. I am happy with my decision to not eat meat and I know I am doing a humane thing which is enough for me to know.

[hoopaddict08]

I can't blame anyone who chooses not to eat meat. There are all kinds of wrong with the meat industry as well as most industries. As someone who has worked in a meat department the last five years, you can't trust your local grocery stores either. I have seen managers take old outdated steaks and season them up to try and sell them. The same goes with fish. Our seafood manager is always mixing dates and sell nasty outdated fish. Its sad and disgusting.

[vitamink420]

Mmmm that first post makes me so hungry for some pork chops wrapped in ham and covered with bacon.

If animals didn't want to be eaten they should stop tasting so delicious.

[bladefd]

I saw that video in OP.. unbelievable, I am glad to be a vegan. Just makes me sick to my stomach to see that sort of animal treatment. Sigh.. What more is there to say? Just makes me mad and disgusted.. :facepalm

[CelticBaller]

Mmmm that first post makes me so hungry for some pork chops wrapped in ham and covered with bacon.

If animals didn't want to be eaten they should stop tasting so delicious.
:oldlol:

[-p.tiddy-]

This is why I eat meat:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1x6UqM7cpSw/TZYV-WrDw6I/AAAAAAAAAGI/r48iyJFfLlc/s1600/5d3b3871c47f837d602d7a316134b35c.jpg
http://i.qkme.me/3583ab.jpg

[The Answer]

And a bear would eat a human in a heart beat if he was hungry.


Why do humans have to be sympathetic to other animals that we need for survival? They surely aren't sympathetic to us. They just can't kill us cause we are too smart (most of the time).

Classic case of overthinking, itt.

Though I don't recall the dates the creature was active, the famed sloth bear of Mysore supposedly killed a dozen people and wounded many more in India. What is your reaction to that? Was this bear a murderer? Was he evil, the Ursidae equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer? Surely not. I suspect that you'll concede that the bear cannot be held responsible for its actions in the same way that Dahmer can. You really need to understand an important distinction here. Non-human animals are not moral agents. That is to say, they are incapable of moral deliberation, but that does not entail that they do not have moral worth. Consider the case of infants. Obviously infants lack the mental capacity to reflect on their actions and take into consideration the interests of others in the way needed for moral deliberation. Nobody would argue, however, that infants don't count morally. It is wrong -- absolutely and unquestionably -- to kill and torture infants. This is true even though infants are incapable of feeling sympathy, which you seem to think is important. Just as infants don't require the capacity to feel sympathy to count morally, neither do bears or any other non-human animal for that matter. All that matters is a being's capacity to suffer.

Your post also seems to presuppose that reciprocity is really important here, but note that we don't ordinarily think that whether an individual is willing or able to reciprocate is all that important when we think about how we should treat other humans. The vast majority of us, for example, think that it matters morally how we treat criminals -- even those who would kill us if given the chance. Indeed, even the most violent criminals are still entitled to a certain fundamental respect. The same is also true, I think, of non-human animals.

There are a number of very good philosophers who have written on this debate. I would strongly recommend checking out the work of Tom Regan or Peter Singer. Both are very accessible, and I think if you give them a chance you will better appreciate why so many consider this to be such a big moral issue.

Edit: I forgot to address your claim that humans need to eat non-human animals to survive. That is, of course, obviously false.

[-p.tiddy-]

Though I don't recall the dates the creature was active, the famed sloth bear of Mysore supposedly killed a dozen people and wounded many more in India. What is your reaction to that? Was this bear a murderer? Was he evil, the Ursidae equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer? Surely not. I suspect that you'll concede that the bear cannot be help responsible for its actions in the same way that Dahmer can. You really need to understand an important distinction here. Non-human animals are not moral agents. That is to say, they are incapable of moral deliberation, but that does not entail that they do not have moral worth. Consider the case of infants. Obviously infants lack the mental capacity to reflect on their actions and take into consideration the interests of others in the way needed for moral deliberation. Nobody would argue, however, that infants don't count morally. It is wrong -- absolutely and unquestionably -- to kill and torture infants. This is true even though infants are incapable of feeling sympathy, which you seem to think is important. Just as infants don't require the capacity to feel sympathy to count morally, neither do bears or any other non-human animal for that matter. All that matters is a being's capacity to suffer.

Let me bring up just one more point really quick. Your post seems to presuppose that reciprocity is really important here, but note that we don't ordinarily think that whether an individual is willing or able to reciprocate is all that important when we think about how we should treat other humans. The vast majority of us, for example, think that it matters morally how we treat criminals -- even those who would kill us if given the chance. Indeed, even the most violent criminals are still entitled to a certain fundamental respect. The same is also true, I think, of non-human animals.

There are a number of very good philosophers who have written on this debate. I would strongly recommend checking out the work of Tom Regan or Peter Singer. Both are very accessible, and I think if you give them a chance you will better appreciate why so many consider this to be such a big moral issue.
The Answer...wow

last time I saw you post in here AI was in his fckin prime :lol

[The Answer]

The Answer...wow

last time I saw you post in here AI was in his fckin prime :lol

Last time I was here you had a different account. Did you get banned again? Was it another of your drunken escapades? :oldlol:

As far as AI, yeah, it was sad watching his career go down the toilet. He's completely washed up now, and reports seem to indicate that he might be broke too. Just tragic.

[-p.tiddy-]

Last time I was here you had a different account. Did you get banned again? Was it another of your drunken escapades? :oldlol:

As far as AI, yeah, it was sad watching his career go down the toilet. He's completely washed up now, and reports seem to indicate that he might be broke now too. Just tragic.
probably banned a few times since you were here but that isn't why I have this account.

I have been through

-primetime-
~primetime~
-playmaker-
-p.tiddy-

I just like to keep it fresh :pimp:

saw Iverson was down to $800k after making over $150m

smh

time to tell the entourage "later"

[Randy]

Though I don't recall the dates the creature was active, the famed sloth bear of Mysore supposedly killed a dozen people and wounded many more in India. What is your reaction to that? Was this bear a murderer? Was he evil, the Ursidae equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer? Surely not. I suspect that you'll concede that the bear cannot be held responsible for its actions in the same way that Dahmer can. You really need to understand an important distinction here. Non-human animals are not moral agents. That is to say, they are incapable of moral deliberation, but that does not entail that they do not have moral worth. Consider the case of infants. Obviously infants lack the mental capacity to reflect on their actions and take into consideration the interests of others in the way needed for moral deliberation. Nobody would argue, however, that infants don't count morally. It is wrong -- absolutely and unquestionably -- to kill and torture infants. This is true even though infants are incapable of feeling sympathy, which you seem to think is important. Just as infants don't require the capacity to feel sympathy to count morally, neither do bears or any other non-human animal for that matter. All that matters is a being's capacity to suffer.

Your post also seems to presuppose that reciprocity is really important here, but note that we don't ordinarily think that whether an individual is willing or able to reciprocate is all that important when we think about how we should treat other humans. The vast majority of us, for example, think that it matters morally how we treat criminals -- even those who would kill us if given the chance. Indeed, even the most violent criminals are still entitled to a certain fundamental respect. The same is also true, I think, of non-human animals.

There are a number of very good philosophers who have written on this debate. I would strongly recommend checking out the work of Tom Regan or Peter Singer. Both are very accessible, and I think if you give them a chance you will better appreciate why so many consider this to be such a big moral issue.

Edit: I forgot to address your claim that humans need to eat non-human animals to survive. That is, of course, obviously false.

I wish we still had rep because I want to rep you so hard right now :lol

I always get too passionate about this subject to keep a level head like it seems you are able to here. Thanks for saying things I try to say but ended up getting in my own way.

[Psileas]

Though I don't recall the dates the creature was active, the famed sloth bear of Mysore supposedly killed a dozen people and wounded many more in India. What is your reaction to that? Was this bear a murderer? Was he evil, the Ursidae equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer? Surely not. I suspect that you'll concede that the bear cannot be held responsible for its actions in the same way that Dahmer can. You really need to understand an important distinction here. Non-human animals are not moral agents. That is to say, they are incapable of moral deliberation, but that does not entail that they do not have moral worth.

Though killing animals for vengeance generally makes little sense (although I would understand any person that would kill out of wrath a specific animal that killed a loved one - humans often kill for stupid reasons, but so do animals. We just tend to "forgive" them due to perceiving them as stupid in general, but if we are to do this, then we'll also have to forgive the temporary stupidity of a truly enraged person that acts without thinking), a few specific animal killings are done for safety reasons. Animals are not that stupid, after all, especially carnivores/omnivores. Certain animals like tigers that have happened to make contact with lots of humans, especially old or weak ones, quickly realize how much weaker and slower humans are compared to their usual prey and become human-eaters. I don't know about the motives of this sloth-bear (which is a pretty aggressive animal by its nature), but when it comes to our own safety, morals will have to take a back seat. Nature doesn't dig morals between different species.

[RidonKs]

We just tend to "forgive" them due to perceiving them as stupid in general, but if we are to do this, then we'll also have to forgive the temporary stupidity of a truly enraged person that acts without thinking
ehhh, this is a stretch


nobody is debating the value of a human life as compared to the value of an animal; that debate is pretty well resolved. it's the very reason a significant aspect of the debate is mankind's carniverous or omniverous instincts and physiology... though i'm somewhat unconvinced that mere physiological facts such as our dental anatomy really tell the whole story, given our evolutionary history and eventual 'rise to the top'.

but if other animals are significantly harming or killing human beings, you won't find many people on the side of the beasts. it's indiscriminate and recreational killing in specifically inhumane conditions that are the problem.

[dunksby]

I dont eat meat to survive, I eat meat cause it is simply delicious.

[IGOTGAME]

ehhh, this is a stretch


nobody is debating the value of a human life as compared to the value of an animal; that debate is pretty well resolved. it's the very reason a significant aspect of the debate is mankind's carniverous or omniverous instincts and physiology... though i'm somewhat unconvinced that mere physiological facts such as our dental anatomy really tell the whole story, given our evolutionary history and eventual 'rise to the top'.

but if other animals are significantly harming or killing human beings, you won't find many people on the side of the beasts. it's indiscriminate and recreational killing in specifically inhumane conditions that are the problem.


I don't understand why that would have any inkling of significance in the debate. The debates I have heard between big names in this debate seem to think it is a non issue. the biggest issue usually comes down to morality, the ability to feel pain, and the mental capacity of animals.

I have never heard someone with a straight face say that it is ok to kill animals because they wouldn't hesitate to kill humans.


Isn’t human use of animals a “tradition,” or “natural,” and therefore morally justified?

Finally, some argue that since nonhuman animals eat other nonhumans in the wild, our use of animals is natural. There are four responses to this position. First, although some animals eat each other in the wild, many do not. Many animals are vegetarians. Moreover, there is far more cooperation in nature than our imagined “cruelty of nature” would have us believe. Second, whether animals eat other animals is beside the point. How is it relevant whether animals eat other animals? Some animals are carnivorous and cannot exist without eating meat. We do not fall into that category; we can get along fine without eating meat, and more and more people are taking the position that our health and environment would both benefit from a shift away from a diet of animals products. Third, animals do all sorts of things that humans do not regard as morally appropriate. For example, dogs copulate and defecate in the street. Does that mean that we should follow their example? Fourth, it is interesting that when it is convenient for us to do so, we attempt to justify our exploitation of animals by resting on our supposed “superiority.” And when our supposed “superiority” gets in the way of what we want to do, we suddenly portray ourselves as nothing more than another species of wild animal, as entitled as foxes to eat chickens.

[L.Kizzle]

Why was Michael Vick in jail again?

[The Answer]

I wish we still had rep because I want to rep you so hard right now :lol

I always get too passionate about this subject to keep a level head like it seems you are able to here. Thanks for saying things I try to say but ended up getting in my own way.

Thanks a lot, Randy. It's easy to get worked up over this kind of thing. Obviously this is an important moral issue, and it's tremendously frustrating when people don't take it seriously. Of course, I'd like to point out that the issues I've raised are not at all original to me. If you haven't already done so, I really would recommend checking out the two philosophers I mentioned. Here's a great lecture by one of them, Tom Regan, if you're interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTNNJspZXA4
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTNNJspZXA4)

[The Answer]

ehhh, this is a stretch


nobody is debating the value of a human life as compared to the value of an animal; that debate is pretty well resolved. it's the very reason a significant aspect of the debate is mankind's carniverous or omniverous instincts and physiology... though i'm somewhat unconvinced that mere physiological facts such as our dental anatomy really tell the whole story, given our evolutionary history and eventual 'rise to the top'.

but if other animals are significantly harming or killing human beings, you won't find many people on the side of the beasts. it's indiscriminate and recreational killing in specifically inhumane conditions that are the problem.

Like IGOTGAME, I don’t think the facts you mention tell us any part of the story. Take the case of rape, for example. Coercive sex is fairly common in a number of species. Moreover, there are evolutionary psychologists who claim that there is a natural explanation for rape. According to these theorists, rape is a perfectly natural phenomenon. Nobody, however, takes seriously the possibility -- even for a moment -- that the morality of rape hinges on an abstruse question of evolutionary psychology. That would truly be absurd. Rape is morally egregious, and that is true whether or not the aforementioned evolutionary psychologists are right. When a woman is raped, she is very seriously harmed. That’s why rape is wrong. The claim that animal rights advocates are making is that practices such as factory farming also very seriously harm non-human animals. Just as in the case of rape, whether or not the behavior is natural does not seem to be relevant to our moral evaluations. To think otherwise is to make the same kind of mistake that rightwing bigots make when they try to argue that homosexuality is wrong because it’s not natural. (They are, of course, mistaken when they say homosexuality isn’t natural, but that’s neither here nor there.) Ultimately, the kind of physiological facts you cite are descriptive and not prescriptive. They tell us nothing about the way we ought to behave.

Just for fun, you could also turn this argument around. Human beings have evolved a capacity to reason. It seems animal rights proponents are exercising this capacity -- like anybody else who reasons about ethics -- when they make moral evaluations about, for example, the meat industry. So in a very plausible sense, being a vegetarian/vegan can be natural too.

[Kblaze8855]

I saw the hippo on the Discovery Channel eat zebra again and was reminded of this topic. nature is occasionally hilarious

[Segatti]

Most liked commentary on that video, which I totally agree with:

The focus should be entirely on the treatment of these animals. Not about getting people to stop eating meat. That's an arguement that will never be won. Why waste the time? Stricter guidlines, more inspections, humane treatment during lifespan and processing, etc. etc., should be the focus. Not our individual eating habits. It's a natural thing, it's part of our DNA, so lets treat the animals that are being used for food with respect. That's the only variable both sides see eye to eye on.

[millwad]

Most liked commentary on that video, which I totally agree with:

The focus should be entirely on the treatment of these animals. Not about getting people to stop eating meat. That's an arguement that will never be won. Why waste the time? Stricter guidlines, more inspections, humane treatment during lifespan and processing, etc. etc., should be the focus. Not our individual eating habits. It's a natural thing, it's part of our DNA, so lets treat the animals that are being used for food with respect. That's the only variable both sides see eye to eye on.

I've been a vegetarian for 4.5 years, I've never even once tried to convince another person to become a vegetarian as well.

But in all honesty, a great majority of people who eats meet couldn't care less about the treatment of these animals. It's all about money, meat from animals with higher living standards is never going to be a priority because it will cost more.

I get disgusted every time I see discount on meat, the cheaper the meat is the more obvious it is that these animals had to suffer even more compared to others.

Anyway, people can't continue to eat meat and overconsume the way they do today in the future. First of all, our health is damaged by it and second, the enviroment is taking damage as well;


The FAO report found that current production levels of meat contribute between 14 and 22 percent of the 36 billion tons of "CO2-equivalent" greenhouse gases the world produces every year. It turns out that producing half a pound of hamburger for someone's lunch a patty of meat the size of two decks of cards releases as much greenhouse gas into the atmosphere as driving a 3,000-pound car nearly 10 miles.

[lefthook00]

Good sh*t on being a vegan. I'm not a vegan but I cut out all animal products about 3 days a week.

[millwad]

Good sh*t on being a vegan. I'm not a vegan but I cut out all animal products about 3 days a week.

That's really good, I like that.

I don't really talk about being a vegetarian with people because even my friends and relatives are ignorant about it so I expect even less from random strangers so I just keep it to myself in real life.

But for those who ask me about it I'm willing to tell and I often get the comment about how people would love to be vegetarians but they like meat to much. I always give them your way of living as an option, eating less meat is a good solution, less animals gets killed, the enviroment suffers less and it's healthy for you.

[mehyaM24]

got my own little garden in the backyard. watermelon, collards, tomatoes, cukes, eggplant, onions... i'm a big fan of the raw food diet but I don't do it exclusively that's for sure.

a couple nights a week tho? I indulge http://www.the-coli.com/images/smilies/obama.png

[DeuceWallaces]

It'd be senseless not to kill animals.

Ever heard of over-population? Why do you think we have deer hunting season in American? Deer are harbors for disease and dangerous (vehicle accidents being #1) to our society.

That is the most ignorant stance you can take. Animals did fine for hundreds of thousands of years without us hunting them. Stop hunting for two-three years and the populations would collapse from density dependent losses.

They don't need us to hunt them for population equilibrium.

[millwad]

That is the most ignorant stance you can take. Animals did fine for hundreds of thousands of years without us hunting them. Stop hunting for two-three years and the populations would collapse from density dependent losses.

They don't need us to hunt them for population equilibrium.

Repped, that's the stupidity and ignorance I face every time when I tell people that I don't eat meat.

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrH46p1I3UA

Deer eating steak.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

The Chinese eating raw fish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb28IYXBi9A

Live Sushi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=NMIK6ZgMXwk&feature=fvwp

Filipino Pig Slaughter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yYzvS5GkqY

[talkingconch]

lol. man has been killing and eating meat since the beginning of time. now lets change that?

post #39 should sum it up perfectly "You not eating meat will do nothing to harm the industry, you are only harming yourself by not giving your body the necessary protein and nutrients it needs that is only available in meat. "

Now if its cruelty you're talking about then I agree 100% it's wrong to do that. But choosing to be vegan simply BECAUSE of the cruelty is just ignorant imo. Your body needs meat.

[MMM]

Damn, the Answer went HAM in this thread
wish I could REP

[millwad]

lol. man has been killing and eating meat since the beginning of time. now lets change that?

post #39 should sum it up perfectly "You not eating meat will do nothing to harm the industry, you are only harming yourself by not giving your body the necessary protein and nutrients it needs that is only available in meat. "

Now if its cruelty you're talking about then I agree 100% it's wrong to do that. But choosing to be vegan simply BECAUSE of the cruelty is just ignorant imo. Your body needs meat.

Pure bogus, that is a load of nonsense and ignorance.

It's well proven that humans don't need meat and that there are non-meat substitutes. Educate yourself.

[Kblaze8855]

until this topic sparked my interest in it I had no idea how many supposed herbivores really are omnivores. we just call them what they eat the most when it is readily available.

turns out deer eat meat all the time. Deer eating meet isn't even rare.

if you watched supposed herbivores all the time I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out vegans are pretty rare in the animal kingdom.

seems like the only things that don't eat meat are things that can't catch prey...... and a huge number of them will eat it if they don't have to catch it. being an omnivores seems more natural than only eating meat or plants.

every animal that lives is destined to be eaten just a matter of the cause of death. If we didn't seal ourselves in coffins after being filled with chemicals we would be too.

Nature feeds the dead to the living. most of the living things on this planet that arent guaranteed to be eaten when they die are plants. And they just break down into nutrients to be eaten by other plants.

every single living animal is going to be eaten by something and most of them die brutally before it happens . Usually while young. I doubt vegans make any impact at all.

I suppose if they made up a larger percentage of the population there would be less farm animals existing in first place. but wherever they happen to exist everything that lives is going to be eaten. vegans could potentially reduce the number of animals that are created for the express purpose of being eaten by humans. but by percentage they can do nothing to change how many animals are going to be eaten. Its pretty much 100% no matter what anyone wants it to be.

all the vegan movement could ever hope to achieve is reduced animal existence. which I suppose would meet their goal of reduced animal suffering in a roundabout fashion

[LJJ]

until this topic sparked my interest in it I had no idea how many supposed herbivores really are omnivores. we just call them what they eat the most when it is readily available.

turns out deer eat meat all the time. Deer eating meet isn't even rare.

if you watched supposed herbivores all the time I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out vegans are pretty rare in the animal kingdom.

seems like the only things that don't eat meat are things that can't catch prey...... and a huge number of them will eat it if they don't have to catch it. being an omnivores seems more natural than only eating meat or plants.

every animal that lives is destined to be eaten just a matter of the cause of death. If we didn't seal ourselves in coffins after being filled with chemicals we would be too.

Nature feeds the dead to the living. most of the living things on this planet that arent guaranteed to be eaten when they die are plants. And they just break down into nutrients to be eaten by other plants.

every single living animal is going to be eaten by something and most of them die brutally before it happens . Usually while young. I doubt vegans make any impact at all.

I suppose if they made up a larger percentage of the population there would be less farm animals existing in first place. but wherever they happen to exist everything that lives is going to be eaten. vegans could potentially reduce the number of animals that are created for the express purpose of being eaten by humans. but by percentage they can do nothing to change how many animals are going to be eaten. Its pretty much 100% no matter what anyone wants it to be.

all the vegan movement could ever hope to achieve is reduced animal existence. which I suppose would meet their goal of reduced animal suffering in a roundabout fashion

I don't really understand what you are trying to argue here. I don't think many vegans are opposed to the food chain mechanic in wild nature.

Some vegans might be opposed to humans killing animals, since there is really no need for humans to do so. Which is more philosophical. Of course animals in the wild will still be killed by other animals, but humans are taken out of the of the animalistic food chain. There are tons of terrible practices human beings have "enlightened" themselves above doing, who's to say that abandoning killing animals for pleasure isn't one of the the next things within that sequence?


However, what I think the vast majority of vegans, vegetarians and other "animal rights" proponents are arguing for is the end of unabashed and mass-scale animal torture for the sole purpose of outlandish and unnecessary luxury for rich people. That's really the essence of the argument. All this "animals eating animals is nature" talk is really besides the point.

[Kblaze8855]

I don't really understand what you are trying to argue here. I don't think many vegans are opposed to the food chain mechanic in wild nature.

Some vegans might be opposed to humans killing animals, since there is really no need for humans to do so. Which is more philosophical. Of course animals in the wild will still be killed by other animals, but humans are taken out of the of the animalistic food chain. There are tons of terrible practices human beings have "enlightened" themselves above doing, who's to say that abandoning killing animals for pleasure isn't one of the the next things within that sequence?


However, what I think the vast majority of vegans, vegetarians and other "animal rights" proponents are arguing for is the end of unabashed and mass-scale animal torture for the sole purpose of outlandish and unnecessary luxury for rich people. That's really the essence of the argument. All this "animals eating animals is nature" talk is really besides the point.

Not in a topic about pigs being raised in shitty conditions to be eaten and that being why the person who made it is vegan.

But let me say....vegetarians arent the issue to me. I dont care what anyone wants to eat. Im kinda/sorta involved with a vegetarian. She wasnt one till lately but....whatever. Feels its the right choice for health reasons and leaves it at that.

The kind of people to talk about being vegan just often strike me as delusional....and worse....as holier than thou douchebags. And as a holier than thou douchebag on a couple other issues....I know my kind when I see it.

And really....I dont even oppose most issues of animal rights or whatever. I dont wear fur. I do have leather shoes and car seats though....which I wont say is any better.

I hate(HATE) the idea of hunting for sport. Just seems ***** to me to go hide in the woods with a gun and shoot an animal that doesnt even know youre there. Go one on one with maybe a knife.....on foot...vs a deer. I'll be impressed if you manage to even catch it. Shoot it? How is that even sporting?

I hate the seal killing yearly in canada. Im annoyed by whaling. Especially japanese ships claiming its scientific research to butcher them

I do understand animal testing for medical reasons....but I dont see why they are needed for some of the BS they are put through for non essential products. Apes having new makeup products tested on them and shit. Seems kinda heartless to keep a wild animal in a cage for some shit like that.

But vegans...eh.

Not eating animal products and preaching to people about the evils of using animals when its virtually impossible to survive without killing? As if the deaths of millions of animals to provide the many many many comforts of our lives dont count if you dont eat candy made with a thin coating of gelatin?

Vegan or not things must die for the life we live. You could go live in the woods and try to do no more damage than the wild animals there but short of that? We live in a society where vegans are posting on the internet using power obtained by dams that harm more animals than I ever will by eating meat.

Have you any idea how many animals are killed to mine for/produce the materials needed to make a cell phone?

Ive seen people in animal rights topics I also see talking about music....some of the same people mad over animal cruelty listening to Kanye west who says "Tell PETA my mink is dragging on the floor!".

But dont eat meat....dont support animal abuse by not eating meat. But go right along with it for shit we dont need but dont want to do without?

The natural world gets straight up ****ed by humans because we wont give up the little things.

But I have people talking down to me because I want a steak when they are driving cars that run on gas produced by oil wells that leave fish trying to breathe poison.

Ive seen people supporting shoes made of materials we wipe out entire rain forests to harvest in opposition of killing a cow for leather. How many animals die when you clear a patch of forest the size of new york city in the production of some of the materials we use to avoid leather?

Human comfort is built on the suffering of the natural world. We dont coexist. We bend it to our will for the smallest of comforts. A vegan and me are enjoying 95% of the same animal killing comforts all day every day. But because he gives up %5 and not the probably 80% he could and still get by....hes talking to me about how we have to reduce cruelty?

Vegans can kill my ass. When they want to hurt a company thats killing animals for shit we dont need....they can stop buying computers, cars, phones, and stop shopping at supermarkets which fuel the meat industry and I wont have to hear from them at all.

Not eating meat is doing nothing. They dont want to be party to the suffering of farm animals....but what of the suffering of the billions that die for every other aspect of our lives? **** em? Or just ignore them because they arent on youtube?

Go taste the water in a stream near a nickel mining operation for a cell phone battery company and tell me how you think the fish are doing.

Not eating animals that are either going to be eaten by something else or not exist at all is a drop in the bucket of suffering humanity spoons over the natural world. And a smaller drop than a number of things less needed than food which they wont give up. What makes a vegan better for not eating meat but still owning a cell phone?

How is it better to buy a cell phone 400 animals are exposed to toxins to produce than to buy a mink coat? What......we NEED cell phones?

The thousands of years without them suggest we dont. We WANT them.

But douchebags with phones and cars running on gas that kills more animals in a month than you can eat in your life are throwing red paint on old ladies for a fur coat?

The hypocrisy is just...stunning. Go live off the land and "only" kill the thousands of "pests" you would have to to harvest vegetables Then tell me how much you care. But they wont. They keep living in our moden suffering dependant world and talking about the animal products they dont use while ignoring the millions that die so they can wake up and go about their business in comfort.

Just rubs me wrong.

[GatorKid117]

Pure bogus, that is a load of nonsense and ignorance.

It's well proven that humans don't need meat and that there are non-meat substitutes. Educate yourself.

So doesn't the fact that people need those meat substitutes support the notion that you need meat in the first place?

[millwad]

So doesn't the fact that people need those meat substitutes support the notion that you need meat in the first place?

What a stupid post..

No, it proves that there are easier way to produce meat substitutes compared to actual meat. You don't harm any animals, the products are cleaner (no hormons, no antibiotics, no garbage food which the animals gets fed with etc..) and the environment doesn't get harmed anywhere as close to compared to the meat industry.

The environment is taking a massive beating due the current meat industry and the massive overconsuming when it comes to meat.

[GatorKid117]

What a stupid post..

No, it proves that there are easier way to produce meat substitutes compared to actual meat. You don't harm any animals, the products are cleaner (no hormons, no antibiotics, no garbage food which the animals gets fed with etc..) and the environment doesn't get harmed anywhere as close to compared to the meat industry.

The environment is taking a massive beating due the current meat industry and the massive overconsuming when it comes to meat.

It would be nice if one could actually have a discussion on this website without pointless insults. That's beside the point though.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, but then again, what you wrote had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I guess I'll just get to my point. When someone uses the term substitute, it implies an imitation to get the intended results without using the original source. So, you're saying that humans can use substitutes to get all of the intended benefits that meat brings, but without actually eating the meat. I guess in my mind, I see that as humans need meat, but there are other available sources to help mimic its nutritional value which I don't dispute.

I guess its more or less an argument over semantics at the end of the day though.

[GatorKid117]

Correct me if I'm wrong but because of how our stomachs are designed proteins/other nutrients are more accessible from meat products than vegetables.

Here's a research study that might interest you: http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/2/v3n3-2pdf.pdf

where meat becomes more important is when you start looking at periods of growth (i.e. pregnancy, trying to build muscle, teenage years). Studies show that animal sources of protein seem to be incorporated to a greater degree and more efficiently than plant sources.


In addition, this is likely due to the higher content of branced chained ammino acids (especially leucine) which activate the pathway responsible for protein synthesis.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/9/1/67

Other highlights 1st article
• Higher protein needs are seen in athletic
populations.
• Animal proteins is an important source of
protein, however potential health concerns do
exist from a diet of protein consumed from
primarily animal sources.
• With a proper combination of sources,
vegetable proteins may provide similar benefits
as protein from animal sources.
• Casein protein supplementation may provide
the greatest benefit for increases in protein
synthesis for a prolonged duration.

Its a good study imo. Stresses the importance of a varied diet and shows the importance of vegetable proteins as well.

[Jackass18]

You can dream about a perfect world all you want, but we live in a ****ed up world. Some things have to suffer and die for others to live.