Highest LeBron can be ranked when it is all said and done?

[iDefend5]

He has no chance at top 3 in my opinion but I'm still not sure, where do you say? He won't be GOAT or GOAT candidate but he did have the talent to be that.

[rodman91]

No way in top 3. I think he'll be somewhere 6-10 if he starts winning FMVPs.. If not, out of top 10 for sure.

[SwooshReturns]

If he gets another MVP this season, and a ring (FINALLY) with Finals MVP ... I put him right on the cusp of the top ten.

[Clippersfan86]

4-7 range. Never greater than Bird, Magic, Jordan. Then you have the next tier Wilt, Kareem and Shaq who Lebron may or may not pass. If I had to say for sure let me guess 6 all time on most people's list.

[Kews1]

When (if) he starts to win championships he will start to rise rapidly

[kumquat]

Gotta win 3 championships to be top 10. He has the team to do it, if he can't he doesn't deserve to be up there.

[LABean]

I think he can overtake Jordan for the no. 3 spot.
It'll look something like this:

1. Kobe

2. Magic



3. LeBron
4. Jordan

[brahmabull117]

Depends on championships


He could be #1 if he wins 6 or 7 rings (depending on how dominant he is in the finals)

[Kews1]

also depends on how long he can keep up his current level of play. Not going to know where hes going to be until its all said and done. Top 6 IMO

[Bob Cousy]

#1 ...

Most likely ?

12th all time.

[Eric Cartman]

I think he can overtake Jordan for the no. 3 spot.
It'll look something like this:

1. Kobe

2. Magic



3. LeBron
4. Jordan

Stupidity at it's finest.

[jlauber]

4-7 range. Never greater than Bird, Magic, Jordan. Then you have the next tier Wilt, Kareem and Shaq who Lebron may or may not pass. If I had to say for sure let me guess 6 all time on most people's list.

Bird has absolutely NO case to be ranked over Chamberlain. NONE. ZERO. NADA. In fact, Bird is a borderline Top-TEN player of all-time. And no higher than 8th.

[Kews1]

I think he can overtake Jordan for the no. 3 spot.
It'll look something like this:

1. Kobe

2. Magic



3. LeBron
4. Jordan
:confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

Bird has absolutely NO case to be ranked over Chamberlain. NONE. ZERO. NADA. In fact, Bird is a borderline Top-TEN player of all-time. And no higher than 8th.

I disagree. Bird is a superior player to Wilt. Played in the prime basketball era yet still was a top 3 player with Jordan and Magic in the game. Bird>Wilt PERIOD Lauber.

[Lebron23]

No.11 this year if he wins his 3rd MVP and his 1st Finals MVP.

[Sarcastic]

I disagree. Bird is a superior player to Wilt. Played in the prime basketball era yet still was a top 3 player with Jordan and Magic in the game. Bird>Wilt PERIOD Lauber.

:roll:

Is this a joke? Bird over Chamberlain?

:roll:

[The Choken One]

Not better than Kobe...all that matters.

[Lebron23]

Not better than Kobe...all that matters.


:lol :lol :lol

[jlauber]

I disagree. Bird is a superior player to Wilt. Played in the prime basketball era yet still was a top 3 player with Jordan and Magic in the game. Bird>Wilt PERIOD Lauber.

First of all, there is simply no way of proving that Bird played in the "prime" era of basketball. Kareem was even more dominant against the best centers of the 80's, than he was against the likes of an OLD Wilt and a past-his-peak Thurmond.

Secondly, the only areas where Bird had any kind of an edge, was in his FT shooting, and 3 pt shooting. BUT, Chamberlain's IMPACT at the FT, including the FACT that Wilt MADE 2000 more FTs in his career, was at the very least, as great. And Bird's 3pt shooting IMPACT in his post-season career was basically non-existant (he MADE a TOTAL of 80 3 pt shots in his 164 post-season games...or one every two games.)

At his peak, Wilt was at the very least, an equal in terms of passing. Hell, how many times did Bird LEAD the league in assists? Or finish THIRD? And how many post-seasons did Bird have where he averaged 9.2 apg? Or have TRIPLE DOUBLE series?

And I hope that someone brings up this "clutch" nonsense. In the meantime, keep in mind that Bird had SEVERAL post-seasons in which he shot .450 or WORSE. In his FIVE Finals, he never shot over .488, and in fact, averaged .455. He even had a playoff series, in arguably his greatest single season, in which he shot .351.

And to save myself some time...here is Wilt in the post-season...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250076&page=6


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.


As for the rest of their games. Chamberlain was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Bird in SCORING, EFFICENCY from the field, REBOUNDING, BLOCKED SHOTS, and DEFENSE. And that includes the post-season, too.

Not even close!

[jlauber]

:roll:

Is this a joke? Bird over Chamberlain?

:roll:

:cheers:

Bird even remotely close to Chamberlain is a JOKE.

[Sarcastic]

I think he can finish either #3 or #4.

1 Jordan - self explanatory
2 Wilt - stats are too insane to be overlooked.
3 Magic - greatest floor general of all time
4 Lebron - greatest athlete in the history of the NBA

[Alamo]

It all depends, but if he wins at least 2 FMVPs I'd put him at 7-8. If he ends his career with less than 2 rings, I'd put anywhere between 13-19

[rodman91]

Why Kareem is so underrated? :facepalm

6 championship, 6 MVPs, 2 FMVPs and tons of accomplishments.

[Sarcastic]

Why Kareem is so underrated? :facepalm

6 championship, 6 MVPs, 2 FMVPs and tons of accomplishments.

Only won when he had Magic or Oscar running the point. Lots of medicore years when he was by himself.

[jlauber]

Why Kareem is so underrated? :facepalm

6 championship, 6 MVPs, 2 FMVPs and tons of accomplishments.

He has a CASE for GOAT, but realistically, he should be around 5th, and behind Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt (in no particular order.) And BIRD is WAY below those guys. Shaq is solidly in front, and even Duncan has had a better career. The real issue is where Kobe winds up. He most certainly will be ranked ahead of Bird on most all-time "lists."

As for OP, it is way to early to tell where Lebron will wind up. If he wins some rings, and a couple more MVPs, he would be solidly in the top-10, and who knows how much higher?

[inclinerator]

kareem not number 2 is a joke

[HEAT111]

Let's say that Miami does win....


So far, he's gunning for his third MVP, he's only a couple of digits against Kobe for the another scoring title. He'd have won last season's All-Star MVP. Has a shot at it if the East wins next week.

[Clippersfan86]

Wilt Chamberlain may not even be top 10. 12 or so is more accurate.

[k0kakw0rld]

If he wins a ring or 2 + 2 Finals MVP he will for sure be ranked higher than Kobe.
Why? 2 MVP awards (1 more than Kobe) + 2 FMVP awards + at least top 5 all time PPG leader. (Currently 3rd with 27.7). On his way to his 3rd MVP award. + Youngest to reach 18000 Points (27 and 35 days old)
Kobe won 5 but 3 out of 5 times he was not the main man. LeBron is, was and will always be the man.

He will be for sure top 10. Maybe 6th or 7th position.

Behind Shaq and possibly ahead of Duncan.

[Bob Cousy]

Wilt Chamberlain may not even be top 10. 12 or so is more accurate.
Is there a punchline to this joke ? if there was I missed it.

:confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

kareem not number 2 is a joke
I think Kareem gets the Kobe treatment of stacked Laker team rings overrated-ness.

I'm sorry but, Magic and Kareem aren't BOTH top 5 of all time players. Either one of them benefited from being teamed up with a real top 5 player or they're equally great players who aren't top 5 that just benefited from being on a stacked team. I lean more towards Magic being a real top 5 player and Kareem not.

Also, I don't see how anyone can possibly think Kareem was a better player than Wilt Chamberlain. Oh that's right. Apparently the 1960's was nothing but short white guys but in 1969 it instantly wasn't anymore.:facepalm

[jlauber]

Wilt Chamberlain may not even be top 10. 12 or so is more accurate.

Give me your CRITERIA in ranking Chamberlain at #12, and then give me the players you rank ahead of him, and using the SAME CRITERIA in the process.

[bizil]

Guys like Jordan, Ali, Ruth, and Jim Brown are such mythic figures that is damn near impossible to catch them on a GOAT list. Even if u compile a better resume, chance are u didn't dominate in the manner or way they did at their best. All four also transcended their sports and redefined their sports on the field, court, or boxing ring. Lebron has truly revolutionized the SF position and he indeeds transcends the NBA I will give that to him. But even guys like Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic are mythic type figures as well. Magic and Bird both had their careers cut short due to other factors. So they gave guys like Kobe, Bron, etc. the chance to possibly pass them by down the road. But gettin past MJ is whole other universe.

[SwooshReturns]

I think Kareem gets the Kobe treatment of stacked Laker team rings overrated-ness.

I'm sorry but, Magic and Kareem aren't BOTH top 5 of all time players. Either one of them benefited from being teamed up with a real top 5 player or they're equally great players who aren't top 5 that just benefited from being on a stacked team. I lean more towards Magic being a real top 5 player and Kareem not.

Also, I don't see how anyone can possibly think Kareem was a better player than Wilt Chamberlain. Oh that's right. Apparently the 1960's was nothing but short white guys but in 1969 it instantly wasn't anymore.:facepalm
This post is full of all kinds of WIN

[RRR3]

Highest possible? IMO 2nd after Jordan, but that's highly unlikely, in fact it's probably impossible. Realistically, top 5.

[StateOfMind12]

Wilt Chamberlain may not even be top 10. 12 or so is more accurate.
Do you actually believe that or are you just following that opinion from a RealGM poster? I know there are a lot of posters on RealGM that don't even believe Wilt is top 10 which is as dumb as it gets. There is a reason why RealGM sucks, it is because that site is filled with stat idiots who don't even watch the games.

[RRR3]

Do you actually believe that or are you just following that opinion from a RealGM poster? I know there are a lot of posters on RealGM that don't even believe Wilt is top 10 which is as dumb as it gets. There is a reason why RealGM sucks, it is because that site is filled with stat idiots who don't even watch the games.
If they were basing it off of stats, alone wouldn't Wilt be super high? :confusedshrug:

[Bob Cousy]

Do you actually believe that or are you just following that opinion from a RealGM poster? I know there are a lot of posters on RealGM that don't even believe Wilt is top 10 which is as dumb as it gets. There is a reason why RealGM sucks, it is because that site is filled with stat idiots who don't even watch the games.
RealGM posters don't even watch basketball. They're stat keepers and house league referees with RGM accounts.

[Sarcastic]

Wilt Chamberlain may not even be top 10. 12 or so is more accurate.

This may be the absolute dumbest shit I have ever seen on this site, and I have seen some dumb shit.

[StateOfMind12]

If they were basing it off of stats, alone wouldn't Wilt be super high? :confusedshrug:
No because people factor in the pace and adjust it and what not. I agree with the RealGM posters that believe that Wilt is overrated but I don't agree with them in the fact that Wilt is not even a top 10 player of all-time.

The top 10 players of all-time are literally set in stone right now and the only one that could intervene is LeBron James. Lebron can't be ranked any higher than 6-7 in my opinion. I don't think he can be top 5 but I actually do think he can still be the greatest SF of all-time but that would be tough.

[Figlo]

Stupidity at it's finest.

Don't feed the troll

5-10 IMO hard to predict though

[Bob Cousy]

No because people factor in the pace and adjust it and what not. I agree with the RealGM posters that believe that Wilt is overrated but I don't agree with them in the fact that Wilt is not even a top 10 player of all-time.

The top 10 players of all-time are literally set in stone right now and the only one that could intervene is LeBron James. Lebron can't be ranked any higher than 6-7 in my opinion. I don't think he can be top 5 but I actually do think he can still be the greatest SF of all-time but that would be tough.
Kobe just entered the top 10 a few weeks ago, don't forget.

[pauk]

4-7 range. Never greater than Bird, Magic, Jordan. Then you have the next tier Wilt, Kareem and Shaq who Lebron may or may not pass. If I had to say for sure let me guess 6 all time on most people's list.

Oh really? All Lebron will need is a couple of rings.......... thats all....

Lebron is not even half way done with his career and excluding the rings of example Larry Bird then Lebron has already accomplished almost ALREADY just as much as Larry has accomplished his entire damn career............

LEBRON JAMES in his 8 seasons:

2 x MVP (3 soon)
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
8 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
6 x All-NBA 1st team
4 x All-Defensive 1st team
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
19 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)

STATS:

18202 points @ 27.7 PPG (#3 all time)
4694 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
4566 assists @ 7.0 APG
1130 steals @ 1.7 SPG
552 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
40 total triple doubles

PER - 27.2 (#2 all-time and in Playoffs, after only Michael Jordan)

LARRY BIRD in his 13 seasons:

3 x MVP
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
12 x NBA All-Star
9 x All-NBA 1st team
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
7 x Player of the Month trophies

STATS:

21791 points @ 24.3 PPG (#16 all time)
8974 rebounds @ 10.0 RPG
5695 assists @ 6.3 APG
1556 steals @ 1.7 SPG
755 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
59 total triple doubles

PER - 23.5 (#18 all-time)







By Lebrons 13th season Lebron will have killed Larry Bird excluding rings from both parts....... All Lebron will need is a couple of rings to surpass him.... and who says he wont win a couple of rings until his 13th season? Whatever the case... he will be 31 years old in his 13th season and still going strong............

Lebron is a on fantastic pace........ he is accumulating everything at a ridicilously high pace....... the only thing missing is RINGS.... and that will come...

[Bigsmoke]

LeBron is one of my favorite players of all times but he aint ****ing with Bird Pauk

[pauk]

Absolutely highest possible is #2.... (what Jordan did is just ridicilous and i dont think anybody will surpass him)

More realistically speaking Top 10....

[pauk]

LeBron is one of my favorite players of all times but he aint ****ing with Bird Pauk

Who said he is ***ing with Bird?

I only said if you exclude the rings from Larry Birds entire career... then Lebron is ***ing with Bird already.... he has already accomplished almost just as much of everything else with much less seasons....

The point is.... Lebron is accumulating accomplishments much more and much faster than Larry Bird did (excluding team accomplishments)... but to surpass and really **** with him when its all said and done, he will need rings.... thats all he needs and will need...

[donald_trump]

highest he can be ranked is number 1. since, its the highest attainable. that goes for everyone. what if any player goes crazy and starts winning and putting up stats like a monster.

lebron still has a 9-10 year window where he'll definitely be a top 3-5 player in the league and could win up to 5-6 titles. all that along with his other accolades and ones he's bound to pick up playing, along with longevity records in points and all that... and hes looking quite good for a top 5 spot.

[k0kakw0rld]

LeBron is one of my favorite players of all times but he aint ****ing with Bird Pauk
That's what i was thinking too but NUMBERS DON'T LIE BRUH ! :lol

[TheCorporation]

"He has no chance at top 3."

???

Are you saying if he wins 6 straight ships or 6 in 7 years etc he will not crack top 3?

[NumberSix]

Absolutely highest possible is #2.... (what Jordan did is just ridicilous and i dont think anybody will surpass him)

More realistically speaking Top 10....
Dude, at some point in time someone will accomplish more than Jordan. It's inevitable.

Outside of accomplishments, there will be a player that surpasses his individual numbers.

The question is, will there be a single player who surpasses both?

There'll surely will be a player who accomplishes more than him. At some point in time there will be a star player who wins 7 championships and 7 finals MVPs and is the clear #1 player on the team. It will eventually happen. The idea that the player that does that will also be a better individual player is not likely.

In order to accomplish more, you can't just be the best player, you have to also be on the best team. That is EXTREMELY unlikely.

You could argue that LeBron is the best player and he is now on the best team as well. Is it possible that he could finish his career with better overall individual production than Jordan? Sure, it's possible. Will he accomplish as much? Probably not. 6 rings, 6 FMVPs as the clear cut best player in the league is not likely. Will he perform better as an individual player AND accomplish more? Almost impossible.

[Sarcastic]

Dude, at some point in time someone will accomplish more than Jordan. It's inevitable.

Outside of accomplishments, there will be a player that surpasses his individual numbers.

The question is, will there be a single player who surpasses both?

There'll surely will be a player who accomplishes more than him. At some point in time there will be a star player who wins 7 championships and 7 finals MVPs and is the clear #1 player on the team. It will eventually happen. The idea that the player that does that will also be a better individual player is not likely.

I agree. Someone will come along someday and win 10 titles in first 12 years or so, the way Russell did. It's inevitable.

The same way if you told people right after Babe Ruth retired that his numbers would someday be surpassed, they would have laughed at you.

[pauk]

Dude, at some point in time someone will accomplish more than Jordan. It's inevitable.

Outside of accomplishments, there will be a player that surpasses his individual numbers.

The question is, will there be a single player who surpasses both?

There'll surely will be a player who accomplishes more than him. At some point in time there will be a star player who wins 7 championships and 7 finals MVPs and is the clear #1 player on the team. It will eventually happen. The idea that the player that does that will also be a better individual player is not likely.

Realistically speaking... here is what a player will have to do to undisputably surpass Michael Jordan...

7 championships
7 FMVPs
6 MVPs
4 x All-star MVP
2 DPOYs
11 x scoring champion
11 x 1st team All-NBA
10 x 1st All-Defensive team
15 x NBA All-Star
Rookie of the Year
20 x POTM

stats:

average 31 ppg-7 rpg-6 apg-4 spg- 1 bpg
score more than 33000 points
have the highest PER in NBA history
26+ triple doubles

and so on.....



GOOD LUCK!

[The_Yearning]

Realistically speaking... here is what a player will have to do to undisputably surpass Michael Jordan...

7 championships
7 FMVPs
6 MVPs
4 x All-star MVP
2 DPOYs
11 x scoring champion
11 x 1st team All-NBA
10 x 1st All-Defensive team
15 x NBA All-Star
Rookie of the Year
20 x POTM

stats:

average 31 ppg-7 rpg-6 apg-4 spg- 1 bpg
score more than 33000 points
have the highest PER in NBA history
26+ triple doubles

and so on.....



GOOD LUCK!

You could of just said 1 up on Michael Jordan in everything ****.

[G-train]

1 ..

[Bob Cousy]

You could of just said 1 up on Michael Jordan in everything ****.
tell me about it.

[Kurosawa0]

He can never pass MJ, Russell or Kareem for me. I think he could catch Magic, Bird or Wilt, but it would take a lot for LeBron to get there.

[Carbine]

If he has any type of longevity, his resume is going to warrant top 5 all-time.

[NumberSix]

Realistically speaking... here is what a player will have to do to undisputably surpass Michael Jordan...

7 championships
7 FMVPs
6 MVPs
4 x All-star MVP
2 DPOYs
11 x scoring champion
11 x 1st team All-NBA
10 x 1st All-Defensive team
15 x NBA All-Star
Rookie of the Year
20 x POTM

stats:

average 31 ppg-7 rpg-6 apg-4 spg- 1 bpg
score more than 33000 points
have the highest PER in NBA history

and so on.....



GOOD LUCK!
I would actually scratch a bunch of things off that list. MVP awards that are voted on by the media aren't really a solid accomplishment. They hand them out to undeserving players all the time.

All star MVPs...... Who gives a shit? It's not even a real game.

DPOY and scoring titles don't really matter either. You can be a better player without being the scoring champ. Being a scorer is one style of play. It doesn't automatically trump every other style of play. Same with being a defensive player. If some guy comes in and dominates the league by being a lockdown defender and averages 30 assists a game for 15 seasons, I don't care if he only averages 6 PPG. That guy is the greatest player of all time.

All NBA teams..... Meh, Awards that are voted on don't really solidify anything.

All star.... Again, who really cares about how many times someone was an all star. Again, it's another title thats just voted on.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Having watched Lebron play in the NBA for almost a decade now, the highest I'll end up ranking him is borderline top 10, I have him in the 11-15 range right now as it is.

He sure as hell isn't going to catch Jordan or Kareem who are locked in as my top 2. Russell is tough for me, but ultimately, in respect to what he accomplished in his own era and how well his skill set translated to his own era, I can't see Lebron passing him.

Hakeem and Shaq were also flat out better than Lebron. He won't pass them or Bird, either. Probably not Magic or Duncan. And I ultimately would have more confidence in prime Kobe leading my team to a title, and Kobe was near prime level, or at prime level for a long time.

Wilt's career parallels Lebron's quite a bit, imo, except Lebron doesn't have the 2 rings. If he gets them, then those 2 will be very close for me.

[Sarcastic]

Realistically speaking... here is what a player will have to do to undisputably surpass Michael Jordan...

7 championships
7 FMVPs
6 MVPs
4 x All-star MVP
2 DPOYs
11 x scoring champion
11 x 1st team All-NBA
10 x 1st All-Defensive team
15 x NBA All-Star
Rookie of the Year
20 x POTM

stats:

average 31 ppg-7 rpg-6 apg-4 spg- 1 bpg
score more than 33000 points
have the highest PER in NBA history
26+ triple doubles

and so on.....



GOOD LUCK!

He wouldn't have to do all of that. Just some of it.

The "some" he does do, has to be much better though.

[dynasty1978]

Having watched Lebron play in the NBA for almost a decade now, the highest I'll end up ranking him is borderline top 10, I have him in the 11-15 range right now as it is.

He sure as hell isn't going to catch Jordan or Kareem who are locked in as my top 2. Russell is tough for me, but ultimately, in respect to what he accomplished in his own era and how well his skill set translated to his own era, I can't see Lebron passing him.

Hakeem and Shaq were also flat out better than Lebron. He won't pass them or Bird, either. Probably not Magic or Duncan. And I ultimately would have more confidence in prime Kobe leading my team to a title, and Kobe was near prime level, or at prime level for a long time.

Wilt's career parallels Lebron's quite a bit, imo, except Lebron doesn't have the 2 rings. If he gets them, then those 2 will be very close for me.

SPOT ON.

[donald_trump]

the fact people are limiting a player of lebrons caliber already goes to show how many haters this board has. why could lebron not finish his career at number 1?

if he starts winning now, he'll be looked at by the younger generation in the same view kobe was/is now. then, you have the fact he'll have a better resume in terms of mvps and stats. kobes already viewed much higher by the general media/crowd then a lot of players that most hardcore bball fans would disagree with.
take that into consideration and lebron is almost a lock for top 5 with 2 or so titles.

[DMAVS41]

Having watched Lebron play in the NBA for almost a decade now, the highest I'll end up ranking him is borderline top 10, I have him in the 11-15 range right now as it is.

He sure as hell isn't going to catch Jordan or Kareem who are locked in as my top 2. Russell is tough for me, but ultimately, in respect to what he accomplished in his own era and how well his skill set translated to his own era, I can't see Lebron passing him.

Hakeem and Shaq were also flat out better than Lebron. He won't pass them or Bird, either. Probably not Magic or Duncan. And I ultimately would have more confidence in prime Kobe leading my team to a title, and Kobe was near prime level, or at prime level for a long time.

Wilt's career parallels Lebron's quite a bit, imo, except Lebron doesn't have the 2 rings. If he gets them, then those 2 will be very close for me.

I agree with some of this....although not at all with where you rank Wilt.

Concerning Lebron, you can't make some of your conclusions yet because you simply don't know how Lebron's prime will end. He probably his this year and 4 more prime years left unless he gets injured.

If he continues to play at his current clip and wins 2 or 3 rings while playing great....I just don't see how the likes of Hakeem, Bird, Kobe are better.

Especially with the numerous failings of Bird and Kobe in the playoffs....so its not like Lebron's black marks will be a deal breaker.

Depending on how the next 8 years or so go for Lebron....I think he will most likely be in the duncan, shaq, bird, hakeem, and kobe range. If he wins 3 or more titles....he would be ahead of bird, hakeem, and kobe for me.

I think the only untouchable players for Lebron are:

MJ, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem....

And even saying "untouchable" isn't really fair because if Lebron led 5 teams to titles he'd definitely be right in that range.

[La Frescobaldi]

I disagree. Bird is a superior player to Wilt. Played in the prime basketball era yet still was a top 3 player with Jordan and Magic in the game. Bird>Wilt PERIOD Lauber.

We'll have to disagree on that one. I watched Chamberlain the last half of his career.

There's are 2 players that stand above the rest of the world in basketball. Wilt is one, and Jordan is the other.

No one else is even close. Not close at all.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Concerning Lebron, you can't make some of your conclusions yet because you simply don't know how Lebron's prime will end. He probably his this year and 4 more prime years left unless he gets injured.

I'm not sure I see 4 more prime years after this one left. He's been in his prime since at least '08-'09.

And unless Lebron becomes a significantly better player than he is now, I think that having watched him for his entire career(now in his 9th) season, I can make some conclusions. Unless of course you think Lebron will be significantly better than he is now, which is really what I'm looking at.


If he continues to play at his current clip and wins 2 or 3 rings while playing great....I just don't see how the likes of Hakeem, Bird, Kobe are better.

2-3 rings would either have him right at Bird, or 1 behind, and still several rings behind Kobe.

As far as Hakeem? It doesn't matter what Lebron does unless he improves a ton because I've seen Lebron play. Just like Kobe is clearly behind Hakeem for me. That's how good I think Hakeem is. And I've already seen enough questionable moments from Lebron to conclude that I'd trust Hakeem much more deep in the playoffs.

And Lebron winning equal or 1 more ring than Hakeem simply won't put him ahead. A big reason is because Hakeem's '95 playoff run may be the best ever, and Lebron's current roster is miles ahead of either of Hakeem's championship teams as far as talent, and particularly depth compared to the '95 team. And the gap would be greater than Lebron's cast and his opponents vs Hakeem's and his.

Lebron winning with his current cast wouldn't be as impressive of a feat as some others to me. It would help his case if he absolutely murders his opponents in historic fashion and the Heat dominate the playoffs.


Especially with the numerous failings of Bird and Kobe in the playoffs....so its not like Lebron's black marks will be a deal breaker.

As I've said, I view your opinion of Bird's "failures" as ignorant and simply don't agree with them, so yes, they could be a deal breaker for me.

Bird is a better scorer and passer to me, as well as much better without the ball and a vastly superior rebounder. Also, he's far more clutch. Lebron is a better defender, but I'd still take Bird.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not sure I see 4 more prime years after this one left. He's been in his prime since at least '08-'09.

And unless Lebron becomes a significantly better player than he is now, I think that having watched him for his entire career(now in his 9th) season, I can make some conclusions. Unless of course you think Lebron will be significantly better than he is now, which is really what I'm looking at.



2-3 rings would either have him right at Bird, or 1 behind, and still several rings behind Kobe.

As far as Hakeem? It doesn't matter what Lebron does unless he improves a ton because I've seen Lebron play. Just like Kobe is clearly behind Hakeem for me. That's how good I think Hakeem is. And I've already seen enough questionable moments from Lebron to conclude that I'd trust Hakeem much more deep in the playoffs.

And Lebron winning equal or 1 more ring than Hakeem simply won't put him ahead. A big reason is because Hakeem's '95 playoff run may be the best ever, and Lebron's current roster is miles ahead of either of Hakeem's championship teams as far as talent, and particularly depth compared to the '95 team. And the gap would be greater than Lebron's cast and his opponents vs Hakeem's and his.

Lebron winning with his current cast wouldn't be as impressive of a feat as some others to me. It would help his case if he absolutely murders his opponents in historic fashion and the Heat dominate the playoffs.



As I've said, I view your opinion of Bird's "failures" as ignorant and simply don't agree with them, so yes, they could be a deal breaker for me.

Bird is a better scorer and passer to me, as well as much better without the ball and a vastly superior rebounder. Also, he's far more clutch. Lebron is a better defender, but I'd still take Bird.

1. Just because you don't think something will happen means relatively nothing. You are trying to cap where Lebron can end up at a point where it is silly to do so.

2. Bird did fail in the playoffs a number of times. Just a fact. Its ignorant to ignore that. Kobe is in the same boat. So is Lebron as well actually.

3. 3 rings would leave Lebron behind many players in terms of ring count. But this isn't just simply counting rings. I love how you count up rings with Bird and Kobe and then say they don't matter for Hakeem. Bird played on some of the most stacked teams ever. Kobe won 3 rings as the 2nd best player on a team. Does that matter? Right now the thing holding Lebron back is winning titles. As simply a basketball player he's about as good as anyone that has ever played the game barring a few guys in my opinion. All the objective measures show this.

4. This is all opinion, but putting a ceiling on where Lebron can end up all time at the age of 27 is silly....especially when a number of the players you are saying he really can't pass had a lot of career black marks as well.

[La Frescobaldi]

shaqattack and DMAV goin at it no question!! some great comments right here

[ShaqAttack3234]

1. Just because you don't think something will happen means relatively nothing. You are trying to cap where Lebron can end up at a point where it is silly to do so.

The OP is asking where we think is the highest Lebron can rank. I've seen Lebron for 9 seasons, a pretty good sample size, no? Based on that, I don't think Lebron can be significantly better than he is now. Is he significantly better than he was in '09? Some would say worse, no better, or marginally better depending on what you value. That's a necessity for him to pass certain players on MY list. What is so hard for you to understand about that?


2. Bird did fail in the playoffs a number of times. Just a fact. Its ignorant to ignore that. Kobe is in the same boat. So is Lebron as well actually.

Everyone "fails" in the playoffs, nobody wins every year, Russell was the closest. I was talking about your opinion of Bird's performances in those years that I find extremely ignorant.


3. 3 rings would leave Lebron behind many players in terms of ring count. But this isn't just simply counting rings.

I know that, so if I don't feel Lebron can get significantly better than he is now then why would rings make me think he's better than Hakeem?


I love how you count up rings with Bird and Kobe and then say they don't matter for Hakeem.

See above, and to sum it up. Hakeem won rings, in about as impressive of a way possible. And I happen to think he was flat out better than Lebron. I think Bird was better too, and lately, I'd lean towards Kobe being slightly better, though that's close, but with those 2 being close and Lebron having an extremely slim chance of catching Kobe in rings considering he has 0 through 8 full seasons, why would I think Lebron would pass Kobe?


Bird played on some of the most stacked teams ever.

And he happened to be a better basketball player, in my opinion. What don't you get about that?


Kobe won 3 rings as the 2nd best player on a team.

And 2 more as the undisputed best player. And 2 of his as the 2nd best player came playing about as well as a 2nd option could possibly play. Not to mention that even as a second option, he never played on a team as talented overall as the 2012 Heat, imo.


Right now the thing holding Lebron back is winning titles. As simply a basketball player he's about as good as anyone that has ever played the game barring a few guys in my opinion. All the objective measures show this.

And that's your view or your criteria for ranking players. Ranking players is ALWAYs subjective, except for in certain cases where guys are clearly in different tiers.


This is all opinion, but putting a ceiling on where Lebron can end up all time at the age of 27 is silly....especially when a number of the players you are saying he really can't pass had a lot of career black marks as well.

You're acting like I should have the same views you do or the same criteria for ranking players. I don't. Let it go.

[Dictator]

I think he can overtake Jordan for the no. 3 spot.
It'll look something like this:

1. Kobe

2. Magic



3. LeBron
4. Jordan

:wtf: :lol

[DMAVS41]

The OP is asking where we think is the highest Lebron can rank. I've seen Lebron for 9 seasons, a pretty good sample size, no? Based on that, I don't think Lebron can be significantly better than he is now. Is he significantly better than he was in '09? Some would say worse, no better, or marginally better depending on what you value. That's a necessity for him to pass certain players on MY list. What is so hard for you to understand about that?



Everyone "fails" in the playoffs, nobody wins every year, Russell was the closest. I was talking about your opinion of Bird's performances in those years that I find extremely ignorant.



I know that, so if I don't feel Lebron can get significantly better than he is now then why would rings make me think he's better than Hakeem?



See above, and to sum it up. Hakeem won rings, in about as impressive of a way possible. And I happen to think he was flat out better than Lebron. I think Bird was better too, and lately, I'd lean towards Kobe being slightly better, though that's close, but with those 2 being close and Lebron having an extremely slim chance of catching Kobe in rings considering he has 0 through 8 full seasons, why would I think Lebron would pass Kobe?



And he happened to be a better basketball player, in my opinion. What don't you get about that?



And 2 more as the undisputed best player. And 2 of his as the 2nd best player came playing about as well as a 2nd option could possibly play. Not to mention that even as a second option, he never played on a team as talented overall as the 2012 Heat, imo.



And that's your view or your criteria for ranking players. Ranking players is ALWAYs subjective, except for in certain cases where guys are clearly in different tiers.



You're acting like I should have the same views you do or the same criteria for ranking players. I don't. Let it go.

1. Yes, I do think Lebron is playing the best ball of his career. The way lebron is playing right now....how many other players have played at a similar level in the history of the game? Maybe 10....its historic.

2. Of course its subjective. I never said otherwise. I'm saying that what isn't subjective really is that Lebron's level of play overall in his first 9 years has been historic and there just isn't much evidence to suggest that guys like Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe are just flat out better players. The evidence for that is in winning titles. And if Lebron fails to lead a team to multiple titles then he won't have a case over those guys. I'm saying we simply don't know yet.

3. Of course everyone fails in the playoffs. That was my point. But no, Bird did not always play well. He had his moments in which he played poorly (for the standards he should be held to)....my point was to knock Bird, but to show that it won't be a sound argument to rank Bird or Kobe over Lebron on the reason of Lebron "failing" or "choking" in the playoffs. Because both of those guys had their fair share.

4. I know everyone has different criteria. I'm trying to stay as close to the accepted criteria because its quite honestly the most objective. But there are exceptions for me of course. I simply could never rank Kobe over Shaq because Shaq was just a higher impact player and I would never in a million years draft Kobe over Shaq to start a team. With Lebron? I think its more debatable when it comes to that Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe tier. Once or if Lebron proves he can lead multiple title winning teams....what is holding him back from ranking higher? Its simply all the objective stuff....titles, longevity, stats...etc. And Lebron is on pace to rewrite the record books on some of that stuff.

5. How can you rank Wilt where you do and then turn around and say I'm being unfair to Bird? That how Bird played trumps his team losing at times. Wilt routinely dominated the game in a way Bird simply did not. You are creating two very different standards when it comes to Wilt and Bird.

[ShaqAttack3234]

1. Yes, I do think Lebron is playing the best ball of his career. The way lebron is playing right now....how many other players have played at a similar level in the history of the game? Maybe 10....its historic.

I find that reasonable, but you said "maybe 10" and never in my posts did I say that Lebron couldn't be top 10.


2. Of course its subjective. I never said otherwise. I'm saying that what isn't subjective really is that Lebron's level of play overall in his first 9 years has been historic and there just isn't much evidence to suggest that guys like Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe are just flat out better players. The evidence for that is in winning titles. And if Lebron fails to lead a team to multiple titles then he won't have a case over those guys. I'm saying we simply don't know yet.

I said that Lebron and Kobe are close as players, imo, ultimately, I think that Lebron can carry less talent to a great record and make them pseudo-contenders, but I think that Kobe's skill set may lend itself better to a championship team, which is why I think Kobe is better, but it's close.

I already explained why I think Bird is better.

And what do you mean there's not much "evidence" to suggest Hakeem was flat out better? The only evidence I need was watching Hakeem play and watching Lebron play. I've seen a team achieve great success with almost their entire offense revolving around Hakeem, and Dream carrying them admirably by scoring 30+ with a variety of post moves, face up moves and jumpers that made him almost unguardable and then setting up the shooters all game long with his passing out of doubles. That was how Houston won, and then on the defensive end, he played at a level that no more than five players in NBA history played at with his unmatched ability to guard screen/rolls, recover in the paint and block shots, switch out and guard perimeter players, elite shot blocking comparable to any center and by those championship years, he was also a fine post defender. Not to mention having some of the quickest hands a big man has ever had. That defensive impact simply wasn't duplicated by a perimeter player, and as I pointed out, his offense certainly wasn't lacking.

Then you have his amazing ability to step up his game in the playoffs which dates back to even his early years(see '86, '87 and '88 to see what I'm talking about).


3. Of course everyone fails in the playoffs. That was my point. But no, Bird did not always play well. He had his moments in which he played poorly (for the standards he should be held to)....my point was to knock Bird, but to show that it won't be a sound argument to rank Bird or Kobe over Lebron on the reason of Lebron "failing" or "choking" in the playoffs. Because both of those guys had their fair share.

And everyone has played below their standards in the playoffs. Bird never had a performance as puzzling to me as Lebron's finals last season or his play after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He had injuries throughout the '83 and '85 playoffs. The one series that sort of puzzles me is the '88 ECF vs Detroit. 35% shooting is very strange for Larry, especially with no injuries reported, though as Larry himself said, he thought it was fatigue to start the series(after the 7 game series vs Atlanta as well as Boston having virtually no bench), and that as the struggles continued they got into his head a bit. So I guess by definition you can call that choking. But at least he did play well in other areas(12 rpg, 6 apg, good defense on Dantley, a ton of blocks and steals and good overall team defense). But I won't argue with criticism for that one.

Either way, Lebron has had 4 years where he's lost in series that he's played well below his standards in. Granted, he didn't have much of a chance to win vs the Spurs and you wouldn't expect him to beat Boston in '08 and he had a great game 7(but you do wonder how things would've been if Lebron wasn't so terrible for most of the series, especially the first 4 games). And those 4 are series where he was WELL below his standards with no injury excuses.


4. I know everyone has different criteria. I'm trying to stay as close to the accepted criteria because its quite honestly the most objective. But there are exceptions for me of course. I simply could never rank Kobe over Shaq because Shaq was just a higher impact player and I would never in a million years draft Kobe over Shaq to start a team. With Lebron? I think its more debatable when it comes to that Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe tier. Once or if Lebron proves he can lead multiple title winning teams....what is holding him back from ranking higher? Its simply all the objective stuff....titles, longevity, stats...etc. And Lebron is on pace to rewrite the record books on some of that stuff.

Here's a problem with this. You say that you simply won't rank Kobe over Shaq, but then put Kobe in Hakeem's tier. Well, I happen to rank Hakeem slightly over Shaq these days, and go back and forth on those 2.

So again, a case of us just disagreeing on a player.

As for the final stuff, I simply couldn't care less about reading a resume off a sheet and ranking a player by that, particularly when I've seen a player's entire career.

[TheOne]

He is a better player than Kobe. I'd expect he ranks higher than Kobe in all-time list.

[Aidz]

If he wins 3+ championships, MVPs and finals MVPs then I'm happy to consider him equal #1 or #2.

[talkingconch]

the fact people are limiting a player of lebrons caliber already goes to show how many haters this board has. why could lebron not finish his career at number 1?

if he starts winning now, he'll be looked at by the younger generation in the same view kobe was/is now. then, you have the fact he'll have a better resume in terms of mvps and stats. kobes already viewed much higher by the general media/crowd then a lot of players that most hardcore bball fans would disagree with.
take that into consideration and lebron is almost a lock for top 5 with 2 or so titles.

haha

[DMAVS41]

I find that reasonable, but you said "maybe 10" and never in my posts did I say that Lebron couldn't be top 10.



I said that Lebron and Kobe are close as players, imo, ultimately, I think that Lebron can carry less talent to a great record and make them pseudo-contenders, but I think that Kobe's skill set may lend itself better to a championship team, which is why I think Kobe is better, but it's close.

I already explained why I think Bird is better.

And what do you mean there's not much "evidence" to suggest Hakeem was flat out better? The only evidence I need was watching Hakeem play and watching Lebron play. I've seen a team achieve great success with almost their entire offense revolving around Hakeem, and Dream carrying them admirably by scoring 30+ with a variety of post moves, face up moves and jumpers that made him almost unguardable and then setting up the shooters all game long with his passing out of doubles. That was how Houston won, and then on the defensive end, he played at a level that no more than five players in NBA history played at with his unmatched ability to guard screen/rolls, recover in the paint and block shots, switch out and guard perimeter players, elite shot blocking comparable to any center and by those championship years, he was also a fine post defender. Not to mention having some of the quickest hands a big man has ever had. That defensive impact simply wasn't duplicated by a perimeter player, and as I pointed out, his offense certainly wasn't lacking.

Then you have his amazing ability to step up his game in the playoffs which dates back to even his early years(see '86, '87 and '88 to see what I'm talking about).



And everyone has played below their standards in the playoffs. Bird never had a performance as puzzling to me as Lebron's finals last season or his play after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He had injuries throughout the '83 and '85 playoffs. The one series that sort of puzzles me is the '88 ECF vs Detroit. 35% shooting is very strange for Larry, especially with no injuries reported, though as Larry himself said, he thought it was fatigue to start the series(after the 7 game series vs Atlanta as well as Boston having virtually no bench), and that as the struggles continued they got into his head a bit. So I guess by definition you can call that choking. But at least he did play well in other areas(12 rpg, 6 apg, good defense on Dantley, a ton of blocks and steals and good overall team defense). But I won't argue with criticism for that one.

Either way, Lebron has had 4 years where he's lost in series that he's played well below his standards in. Granted, he didn't have much of a chance to win vs the Spurs and you wouldn't expect him to beat Boston in '08 and he had a great game 7(but you do wonder how things would've been if Lebron wasn't so terrible for most of the series, especially the first 4 games). And those 4 are series where he was WELL below his standards with no injury excuses.



Here's a problem with this. You say that you simply won't rank Kobe over Shaq, but then put Kobe in Hakeem's tier. Well, I happen to rank Hakeem slightly over Shaq these days, and go back and forth on those 2.

So again, a case of us just disagreeing on a player.

As for the final stuff, I simply couldn't care less about reading a resume off a sheet and ranking a player by that, particularly when I've seen a player's entire career.

1. You ranking Hakeem over Shaq "these days" is what I'm talking about though. This stuff changes. I'm going off the accepted criteria as much as I can. And I understand you are using your opinion more. That is fine....but my point is that Lebron still has a ton of time left to change your opinion. Things change. I remember debating people back after 07 about Kobe and his place in history. I'm sure you did the same. People saying he has no chance to finish in the top 15...let alone the top 10. People claiming he couldn't win with Shaq...etc. now he's a top 10 player ever for most and has proven a ton.

2. My point is that we should never put a ceiling on guys at age 27 with the chances to do historic things like lebron does. Sure he's had his bad moments, but like you said....most players have.

3. I think this year so far proves my above point. Lebron really has taken a step forward as a player. It might not last, but his game is currently the best its ever been in my opinion. There is simply too much to be written about Lebron at this point. He played 7 years in a really tough situation. Now its time to see what he can do playing on the title favorite.

4. The thread says "highest Lebron can be ranked".....so tell me this:

Using your own criteria, where would you rank Lebron if he ended up with 4 titles and 3 finals mvps and 4 regular season mvps and had career in the playoffs/regular season of:

27/7/7 on 56% TS

I know you don't like going just off stats, but I'm just giving you them for some context for his level of play.

Where would you rank him?

[donald_trump]

haha

general perception and media is what this is all based on.

the general media is making it out as if kobe is already better than shaq, bird and duncan. and that is what is being portrayed and what people are believing. lebron wins a couple and it'll be the same thing.

doesnt mean its necessarily true, but over time it will become true simply due to power in numbers.

[WockaVodka]

Lebron would have still had a case for the greatest of all-time if he hadn't fail in such epic proportions last season in the Finals. I think he could still be top 5 though but it would be tough and he would have to win it all this year for his legacy to start.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron would have still had a case for the greatest of all-time if he hadn't fail in such epic proportions last season in the Finals. I think he could still be top 5 though but it would be tough and he would have to win it all this year for his legacy to start.


I agree, If He wins 2 or 3 championships with 2 or 3 Finals MVPS and 6 or 7 more high Level seasons production wise he will finish top 5 of all time.. Why cause he will have the personal stats plus the pure talent to make that claim. People can say what they want but he already is a top 5 pure talent the NBA has ever seen.

[All Net]

I think anywhere from 4-8 is very possible.

Will be very hard for him to crack the top 3 but not totally impossible. Depends how many he wins and if he can keep his stats up. Number 1 is clearly out of the question.

[cteach111]

I think anywhere from 4-8 is very possible.

Will be very hard for him to crack the top 3 but not totally impossible. Depends how many he wins and if he can keep his stats up. Number 1 is clearly out of the question.

whos your #1 player?

[I.R.Beast]

15-20..... winning with wade and bosh on easily the best team in the leagu doesnt really help his case...it hurts its imo.... it will be an asterisk almost.

[Kurosawa0]

I think anywhere from 4-8 is very possible.

Will be very hard for him to crack the top 3 but not totally impossible. Depends how many he wins and if he can keep his stats up. Number 1 is clearly out of the question.

That's where I'm kinda at. If LeBron wins a 2-3 rings, ends up with 3+ MVPs and has career numbers somewhere around 30,000 points, 8,000 rebounds and 8,000 assists I'll have to put him in the Magic/Bird/Kobe category.

You look at Bird he had around 22,000 points, 6,000 assists and 9,000 rebounds.

Magic: 18,000 points, 10,000 assists and 7,000 rebounds.

Kobe: 29,000 points, 5,000 assists, 6,000 rebounds.

LeBron's sitting at 18,000 points, 5,000 assists and 5,000 rebounds.

(obviously rounding for everyone)

Not to make this all about numbers, but if LeBron wins some rings and keeps his production up to a decent level for the next 5-7 years he'll be there.

[Lebron23]

Numero Uno

[Kurosawa0]

Numero Uno

So, aliens come to Earth tomorrow and threaten to destroy the planet unless you can beat them in a best of seven series. You can pick players from any time... who's the first guy you're taking?

[Lebron23]

So, aliens come to Earth tomorrow and threaten to destroy the planet unless you can beat them in a best of seven series. You can pick players from any time... who's the first guy you're taking?


LeBron.

[Kurosawa0]

LeBron.

I like the guy, but come on... :lol

[All Net]

whos your #1 player?

MJ 1st, Kareem 2nd.

[Sarcastic]

So, aliens come to Earth tomorrow and threaten to destroy the planet unless you can beat them in a best of seven series. You can pick players from any time... who's the first guy you're taking?

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Lebron
4 Magic
5 Duncan

In that order.

[Kurosawa0]

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Lebron
4 Magic
5 Duncan

In that order.

No Russell? I want the greatest winner in the history of the sport. I'd take MJ first, but I #2 would be the guy that was 10-0 in game 7s.

[DMAVS41]

No Russell? I want the greatest winner in the history of the sport. I'd take MJ first, but I #2 would be the guy that was 10-0 in game 7s.

I heard a stat recently about Russell. If you count college, NBA, and the olympics....Russell played in 21 win or go home games. Russell went 21-0.

Simply the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA and probably all sports.

[Marv_Albert]

Gotta win 3 championships to be top 10. He has the team to do it, if he can't he doesn't deserve to be up there.

This, and he's my favourite player.

[miggyme1]

If lebron can win four str8 rings ill have to automatically put him in the top ten.this is the most talented basketball era ever in the history of the game.for the next ten to fifteen years the championship is up for grabs for at least half of all the nba teams if not more.but one thing a lot of u people are forgettin is..........wat about DWADE!im sorry if lebron wins any rings in miami its soley because of wade.its disturbing to me that lebron is gonna end up tainting my boy dwades legacy just because all the hype lebron gets.and remember this dwade will always have one more ring than lebron if they both end their careers in miami.where will dwade end up as an all time great?thats the real question.cuz i feel like he is gonna get robbed.my only gripe about dwade is that he cant hit a three to save his life.and dat will hurt miami come playoff time

[Quickening]

Number 1.... best all round player ever, just needs the championships to back it up.

[Pursuer]

I don't see what's stopping him from ending up no.1
If he keeps improving his game year to year. Backs up his talent with championships. Delivers in the most important situations for the team. Continues to pile up records and demonstrates longevity he's gotta be there. Defensively, he might never be the most dominant player, but he's surely shown very great versatility, that I've rarely seen. On the other end, his accomplishments have been greatly documented and there's no doubt about his capabilities. So what if he's lost 2 finals? As if the finals possess some magical difference vs the conference finals. Yeah the opponents are different, but you can't fault him for not delivering in the "biggest stage". It's as if more people watching him on tv makes a difference.

[LakersReign]

the fact people are limiting a player of lebrons caliber already goes to show how many haters this board has. why could lebron not finish his career at number 1?

if he starts winning now, he'll be looked at by the younger generation in the same view kobe was/is now. then, you have the fact he'll have a better resume in terms of mvps and stats. kobes already viewed much higher by the general media/crowd then a lot of players that most hardcore bball fans would disagree with.
take that into consideration and lebron is almost a lock for top 5 with 2 or so titles.


Go back and read some of your own posts about Kobe, then try to come back and say all of that again.:rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way, anybody who ranks Lebron higher than 12-15 ATG, is either delusional or an obvious Lebronite.:hammerhead:

[ImmortalD24]

With 1 more title and a finals MVP, I'd put him in the top 2. No way he doesn't lead the Heat to a title this year. Jeremy Lin has better odds of being broke when he retires than the Heat losing.

[NumberSix]

I heard a stat recently about Russell. If you count college, NBA, and the olympics....Russell played in 21 win or go home games. Russell went 21-0.

Simply the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA and probably all sports.
Wouldn't he have to have NEVER lost a single series for that to be true?

When Philadelphia eliminated Boston in 1967 in game 5, wasn't that a case of Bill Russell losing an elimination game?

[iDefend5]

With 1 more title and a finals MVP, I'd put him in the top 2. No way he doesn't lead the Heat to a title this year. Jeremy Lin has better odds of being broke when he retires than the Heat losing.
:facepalm

[Vienceslav]

Seems 2 FMPVs get you into the top 10 these days.

[ImmortalD24]

With 1 more title and a finals MVP, I'd put him in the top 2. No way he doesn't lead the Heat to a title this year. Jeremy Lin has better odds of being broke when he retires than the Heat losing.
:facepalm
You're welcome.

[alenleomessi]

Highest? 2nd...

[Clutch]

Behind Jeremy Lin.

[bluechox2]

behind lin and wade

james could of had the lin hype if he came to ny...ah well

[ImmortalD24]

behind lin and wade

james could of had the lin hype if he came to ny...ah well
In New York, he'd probably go down as top 5 All-Time.. even without a ring. (dead serious) And he'd still have a great chance to win it all (assuming they still get Chandler and a decent PG)

[Big#50]

Duncan
Shaq
Kareem
MJ
Will always be ahead of him in my list. Top five.

[G-Funk]

If he gets 2 tittles(Finals MVP) I doubt he get's passed Shaq, Kobe, Duncan & Hakeem. If he wins 3, he's definetly in the conversation. IMO anything more than that is nearly impossible, he has a 5 year window to win that many with this team.(Let's be honest great things always come to an end), with the emergence of Durant & Thunder, Rose & Bulls, Clippers, & Kobe looking to win more before he retires I see it VERY difficult. & I doubt he wins all his F-MVP's playing along side Wade and to an extend Bosh who has a good outside shot. 2 Finals MVP's & 3 championships sounds right. @ best I have him at 5-7 at worst 7-12

[zizozain]

if he wins 5 rings

20-25

[Rnbizzle]

I think he should be able to surpass Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem before it's said and done.

inb4 I get crucified for saying this.

Actually, barring major injuries, and assuming he gets a couple of rings at least.. Also getting close to the scoring record..

Why would guys like Magic, KAJ and Bird be out of reach?

I find it hard to rank (and compare players with) guys like Wilt and Russell so I'm not gonna get into that.

Only one who I think is out of reach and will remain out of reach is MJ.

Haters feel free to hate..

[White Mamba]

if he wins 5 rings

20-25
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[bluechox2]

if he wins 5 rings

20-25

lets not get ahead of ourselves

[colts19]

I would actually scratch a bunch of things off that list. MVP awards that are voted on by the media aren't really a solid accomplishment. They hand them out to undeserving players all the time.

All star MVPs...... Who gives a shit? It's not even a real game.

DPOY and scoring titles don't really matter either. You can be a better player without being the scoring champ. Being a scorer is one style of play. It doesn't automatically trump every other style of play. Same with being a defensive player. If some guy comes in and dominates the league by being a lockdown defender and averages 30 assists a game for 15 seasons, I don't care if he only averages 6 PPG. That guy is the greatest player of all time.

All NBA teams..... Meh, Awards that are voted on don't really solidify anything.

All star.... Again, who really cares about how many times someone was an all star. Again, it's another title thats just voted on.

Thank You for the Best Post Ever. I agree 100%. What the hell does allstar mvp have to do with anything for God's sake. All the other points you make are true also. Thank You.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[GOBB]

Rings change things. But I have to say this dude is a 2 way player offensively, defensively playing at an elite level. Dwight might win DPOY until he (knock on wood) goes down with a nasty injury. But I'd consider Lebron for the award. He's just beasting.

28ppg 7rpb 8apg on 55% FG? :wtf:

He gets those averages so much you kind of take them for granted. Like yesterday, 25pts 11rbs 8ast. Meh, no triple double Bron and only 25 pts? What gives. F*cking amazing. You guys better enjoy this man while he plays. He'll be climbing all time leaderboards year after year.

If he wants to crack top 10 without the bickering amongst fans? Grab rings.

I think this year is the year he does it.

[colts19]

1. Yes, I do think Lebron is playing the best ball of his career. The way lebron is playing right now....how many other players have played at a similar level in the history of the game? Maybe 10....its historic.

2. Of course its subjective. I never said otherwise. I'm saying that what isn't subjective really is that Lebron's level of play overall in his first 9 years has been historic and there just isn't much evidence to suggest that guys like Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe are just flat out better players. The evidence for that is in winning titles. And if Lebron fails to lead a team to multiple titles then he won't have a case over those guys. I'm saying we simply don't know yet.

3. Of course everyone fails in the playoffs. That was my point. But no, Bird did not always play well. He had his moments in which he played poorly (for the standards he should be held to)....my point was to knock Bird, but to show that it won't be a sound argument to rank Bird or Kobe over Lebron on the reason of Lebron "failing" or "choking" in the playoffs. Because both of those guys had their fair share.

4. I know everyone has different criteria. I'm trying to stay as close to the accepted criteria because its quite honestly the most objective. But there are exceptions for me of course. I simply could never rank Kobe over Shaq because Shaq was just a higher impact player and I would never in a million years draft Kobe over Shaq to start a team. With Lebron? I think its more debatable when it comes to that Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe tier. Once or if Lebron proves he can lead multiple title winning teams....what is holding him back from ranking higher? Its simply all the objective stuff....titles, longevity, stats...etc. And Lebron is on pace to rewrite the record books on some of that stuff.

5. How can you rank Wilt where you do and then turn around and say I'm being unfair to Bird? That how Bird played trumps his team losing at times. Wilt routinely dominated the game in a way Bird simply did not. You are creating two very different standards when it comes to Wilt and Bird.


I am the biggest Bird fan ever saw him play every home game in college and followed him in the Pro's and even though Red said bird was the greatest Celtic ever and put him ahead of Russell and Wilt my eye told me that Wilt was the Greatest most unstoppable player ever.

As far as failures go Bird did have some but the is a difference in LeBron's failure last year was EPIC in total. No other player in history has failed in the fourth quarter of finals games at that level EVER. It was at almost a total QUITTER level. I don't think you can ever recover from that enough to ever be in the top 6 conversation.

[Chrono90]

I think he can finish either #3 or #4.

1 Jordan - self explanatory
2 Wilt - stats are too insane to be overlooked.
3 Magic - greatest floor general of all time
4 Lebron - greatest athlete in the history of the NBA

He can only if he wins like 6 championships which i doubt it.
I dont think he can pass Kobe when both careers are set and done.

[Da_Realist]

With the AAU-ization of basketball at the developmental levels, I highly doubt we'll see a player as fundamentally sound as MJ was. It took Lebron 7 or 8 years to work on his post game...and he's the best player in the NBA.

Some refocusing would need to happen at the high school and college level way before we see a player as good as MJ was. It may be impossible now. Too much money in the league to work on boring things like that. The highlight reels will always pay the bills.

Sort of like porn. In the 70's, there were real nymphos and freaky housewives that did it for a thrill. Now with the money and fame, any lame Jane with thousands of dollars of cosmetic surgery can become rich and famous. Porn will never be the same. Money ruined it. Same with basketball. It'll still be exciting, but we'll see a thousand more Carmelo Anthonys and JR Smiths before a Larry Bird or Michael Jordan.

[swi7ch]

top 5 all time if he wins at least 3 rings
or
2nd best sf of all time behind larry legend

[SwooshReturns]

So, aliens come to Earth tomorrow and threaten to destroy the planet unless you can beat them in a best of seven series. You can pick players from any time... who's the first guy you're taking?
We've already seen this movie ... and we all know damn well the answer is Michael Jeffrey Jordan. I wouldn't even pick LeBron over Bird, Magic, Kobe, Iverson and several others. LeBron has already proven his ability to become the Frozen One in important moments. Anyone who would pick LeBron for this situation would be utterly retarded. Hell, who did Team USA organically turn to in 2008 to bail them out of an intense and pressure packed situation? It sure as hell wasn't LeBron James. It was Kobe, followed closely by Dwyane Wade.

[Jotaro Durant]

8 at most

joining miami ruined any chance of beating larry

[RaininTwos]

If he stays bullet proof he will be greater than Larry.

[pauk]

Wilt's career parallels Lebron's quite a bit, imo, except Lebron doesn't have the 2 rings. If he gets them, then those 2 will be very close for me.

Good, because i rank Wilt #2 of all time....

[jrong]

Players he has no chance of passing:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Chamberlain

So, top ten then. He could conceivably surpass Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem etc.

[pauk]

Players he has no chance of passing:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Chamberlain

So, top ten then. He could conceivably surpass Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem etc.
How are u so sure? At lebrons age even jordan had same "no chance" ... Look where he is now....

[guy]

The only players I think he has no chance of surpassing are Jordan and Russell. Anyone else is possible, but given his lack of mental toughness, at this rate I don't see him getting in the top 10.

[guy]

4. The thread says "highest Lebron can be ranked".....so tell me this:

Using your own criteria, where would you rank Lebron if he ended up with 4 titles and 3 finals mvps and 4 regular season mvps and had career in the playoffs/regular season of:

27/7/7 on 56% TS

I know you don't like going just off stats, but I'm just giving you them for some context for his level of play.

Where would you rank him?

If he did that, I'm assuming he would've shaken off that unclutch ability factor. I'd say with that he'd probably at least be top 5. He wouldn't be ahead of Jordan or Russell, but he could possibly be ahead of Kareem and Magic depending on longevity and how long he keeps up an elite level of play. I'm also assuming Kobe doesn't do much more to add on to his legacy.

[jrong]

How are u so sure? At lebrons age even jordan had same "no chance" ... Look where he is now....

Because he already has negative strikes against him. You have to take into account what happened in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs in evaluating LeBron's career, not just the positives. Say he somehow ends up with six titles and five MVPs. He's still below Jordan. MJ never required a virtual intervention to get him to perform in big-stage, high-pressure playoff series.

On top of that, Wade > Pippen. Even for those in denial about that fact, the one thing that can't be argued is that Jordan never had the same kind of offensive help as James. Pippen never carried the Bulls in extended stretches of season games, let alone entire playoff series, while MJ was on the court too. In fact, he never came close to even matching him in series' production. If Jordan averaged 28 pts against the Celtics in a series, there's no way he would've ever had Pippen by his side averaging 30 pts in the same series.

It's a completely different dynamic. It takes SO much pressure off LeBron to have Wade even be able to carry the team for a half-- like the way Wade has been doing in first halves lately, for example-- so he doesn't have to do it the whole game. Jordan never had such a luxury.

[DMAVS41]

If he did that, I'm assuming he would've shaken off that unclutch ability factor. I'd say with that he'd probably at least be top 5. He wouldn't be ahead of Jordan or Russell, but he could possibly be ahead of Kareem and Magic depending on longevity and how long he keeps up an elite level of play. I'm also assuming Kobe doesn't do much more to add on to his legacy.

Right. That is how I feel as well. He will never get rid of the black marks of the 2010 game 5 or the 2011 NBA finals. But if he ends up with 4 rings and 4 mvps and 2 or 3 finals mvps with his career numbers and plays something like 16 or so years.

Its just impossible not to rank him right at or in the top 6.

That gets into differing criteria, but I think objectively that would just be too great of a career to ignore.

Much like Wilt's....so many people say he "just wasn't that good"....but you can't ignore what he did. Which is why he should always be top 5 imo.

[pegasus]

He needs at least 3 rings+3 FMVP's to crack the top 10. The fact that he teamed up with another top-3 player (according to most), and a top-5 PF will negate some of his accomplishments.

He can move up quicker when/if Wade becomes much less effective on the court, and if they can still win without signing even better role players.

Lebron may have better stats right now, but I would put my money on Wade winning the finals MVP if they make it that far. And not only because of what happened last year, I'm just not sure if Lebron believes that he has it in him to win it all as the alpha dog.

[SwooshReturns]

How are u so sure? At lebrons age even jordan had same "no chance" ... Look where he is now....
Stop pushing this STUPID agenda. It's years of pro experience.

9 years in ... MJ had 3 MVPs, 2 Olympic Gold Medals, 2 Finals MVPs, and was about to win his 3rd ring and Finals MVP

And then retired for two years at his absolute PEAK

The comparison isn't even close

Age makes no difference. LeBron was a man when he entered the league. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If he was capable of putting up 20 / 5 / 5 he wasn't some developmental project.

You can't compliment him for what he's done at his age, and then when he fails, use his age an excuse.

That's a loser mentality. But befitting of a LeBron fan.

[SwooshReturns]

I'm just not sure if Lebron believes that he has it in him to win it all as the alpha dog.
That's why the coward went to AAU it up with Wade and Bosh to begin with. He knows ... he knows.

He could have picked a different team, joined a team with more talent than Cleveland and still won a ring as an alpha.

He chose D. Wade for a SPECIFIC reason.

[pauk]

The only players I think he has no chance of surpassing are Jordan and Russell. Anyone else is possible, but given his lack of mental toughness, at this rate I don't see him getting in the top 10.

:rolleyes: Oh please............ Lebron is behind Jordan the most productive Playoff performer in NBA history... and had some of the best playoff performances in NBA history, clutch wise or productivity wise....
He made miracles out of scrubs........

The only place Lebron has not been able to be godlike is in the NBA Finals.... and that has nothing to do with """"mental toughness"""", it has to do with getting beat by a better TEAM...

[blablabla]

How are u so sure? At lebrons age even jordan had same "no chance" ... Look where he is now....
people were calling mj the best ever at lebrons age

[pauk]

Soooooo many butthurt Lebron haters trying so hardddddddddddddddddddddddddddd... :oldlol:

Lebron has potential to be GOAT.... deal with it... and move on...

[SwooshReturns]

The only place Lebron has not been able to be godlike is in the NBA Finals.... and that has nothing to do with """"mental toughness"""", it has to do with getting beat by a better TEAM...
This kid is in straight DENIAL. You mean to tell me LeBron's performance didn't look phoned in or frozen in the moment? All that lack of production even up to his regular AVERAGES let alone surpassing them was all because he got completely shut down? Either answer makes him look pathetic. But we all know the proper answer is the former and not the latter. That's what makes it even worse. LeBron is the definition of mental weakness. "Like me !!! Please, LIKE ME !!!"

:oldlol:

[Fudge]

Soooooo many butthurt Lebron haters trying so hardddddddddddddddddddddddddddd... :oldlol:

Lebron has potential to be GOAT.... deal with it... and move on...
THE IRONY

:oldlol: :roll: :roll:

[asdf1990]

He needs at least 3 rings+3 FMVP's to crack the top 10. The fact that he teamed up with another top-3 player (according to most), and a top-5 PF will negate some of his accomplishments.

He can move up quicker when/if Wade becomes much less effective on the court, and if they can still win without signing even better role players.

Lebron may have better stats right now, but I would put my money on Wade winning the finals MVP if they make it that far. And not only because of what happened last year, I'm just not sure if Lebron believes that he has it in him to win it all as the alpha dog.

Magic played with the second GOAT his whole career and he is still a top 5 player all time ...

[SwooshReturns]

Magic played with the second GOAT his whole career and he is still a top 5 player all time ...
This is an very ODD double standard too, I'd like to add. It's also why PEAK Bird > PEAK Magic.

[pegasus]

Magic played with the second GOAT his whole career and he is still a top 5 player all time ...

Maybe it's the fact that Lebron had to go out of his way and sign with Wade's team after having failed to win it without another top-3 player. He went to Miami just for that, not because of its desirable weather.

Just admit that he overdid it in the 2010 free agency. Teaming up with Bosh or Amare or Boozer or even Nowitzki would have been fine, but going to Wade's team is a big stain on his legacy. He needs several rings and FMVP's to help people forget that, not just 1 or 2.

[DMAVS41]

Maybe it's the fact that Lebron had to go out of his way and sign with Wade's team after having failed to win it without another top-3 player. He went to Miami just for that, not because of its desirable weather.

Just admit that he overdid it in the 2010 free agency. Teaming up with Bosh or Amare or Boozer or even Nowitzki would have been fine, but going to Wade's team is a big stain on his legacy. He needs several rings and FMVP's to help people forget that, not just 1 or 2.

How it happened should be irrelevant to ranking a basketball player.

What you are talking about is a sound reason to not like Lebron is a person or be a fan of his....but not at all a logical reason to rank Lebron lower all time.

Its so silly to reward a player like Magic for getting drafted by a great franchise when Magic also manipulated his way there to begin with.

[guy]

Right. That is how I feel as well. He will never get rid of the black marks of the 2010 game 5 or the 2011 NBA finals. But if he ends up with 4 rings and 4 mvps and 2 or 3 finals mvps with his career numbers and plays something like 16 or so years.

Its just impossible not to rank him right at or in the top 6.

That gets into differing criteria, but I think objectively that would just be too great of a career to ignore.

Much like Wilt's....so many people say he "just wasn't that good"....but you can't ignore what he did. Which is why he should always be top 5 imo.

One thing I take into account is longevity. I expect Lebron to play something along the lines of 16-20 seasons due to just how durable he's been throughout his career and his age. When thats the case, it would be hard for me to rank him below someone like Magic, Bird, or Wilt when he's also accomplished that much. Even if he's never as good as those guys at their peak, the fact that he plays so much longer might make me take him over them if I had to draft and build around one. The same would go for Kobe.

[guy]

:rolleyes: Oh please............ Lebron is behind Jordan the most productive Playoff performer in NBA history... and had some of the best playoff performances in NBA history, clutch wise or productivity wise....
He made miracles out of scrubs........

The only place Lebron has not been able to be godlike is in the NBA Finals.... and that has nothing to do with """"mental toughness"""", it has to do with getting beat by a better TEAM...

:oldlol: Wow. Anyone that thinks his failures in the last 2 years has nothing to do with mental toughness doesn't deserve to have an opinion taken seriously.

[pegasus]

How it happened should be irrelevant to ranking a basketball player.

What you are talking about is a sound reason to not like Lebron is a person or be a fan of his....but not at all a logical reason to rank Lebron lower all time.

Its so silly to reward a player like Magic for getting drafted by a great franchise when Magic also manipulated his way there to begin with.

I'm not saying that he had to stay in Cleveland, but he didn't have to form the most stacked team of all time, either. If he really belongs in the top-10 discussion, then he wouldn't have felt the need to do so.

What he did shows his own admission of his self worth (or lack thereof). I don't know what it's gonna take you guys to see that. Maybe another finals disappearing act?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would never rank him over Jordan, anywhere else is acceptable and realistic though. Miami is EASILY the favorites to win it all this year, and Lebron is having his most efficient season yet. Dude is clearly the MVP; it's just that sought out Finals MVP/ring dude desperately needs.

[SwooshReturns]

:oldlol: Wow. Anyone that thinks his failures in the last 2 years has nothing to do with mental toughness doesn't deserve to have an opinion taken seriously.
pauk has had LeBron's ====D firmly planted on his lips since the dawn of time ...

A LeBron stan would never understand context, pressure, player intangibles

Things that aren't measured in a box score.

:oldlol:

[pegasus]

:oldlol: Wow. Anyone that thinks his failures in the last 2 years has nothing to do with mental toughness doesn't deserve to have an opinion taken seriously.

And that his performance was just not "god like":lol So otherwise, it was pretty good for a superstar:roll:

[bizil]

I think it was irresponsible for people to rank MJ ahead of the great Jerry West so early in his career. Now at the time in terms of who was the better player on the court, MJ was already to doing stuff to justify being the BEST player ever at SG. He ability and level of play was exceeding the peak value of guys like West, Gervin, Monroe, and Maravich before him. But GOAT wise, I didn't rank MJ ahead of West until he won his first ring. It's two different type criteria.

However at the same time a player can acheive so much, revolutionize a position, and become so dominant that they can rise up the GOAT charts at a rapid pace. MJ was that kind of guy and I feel Lebron is as well. In GOAT terms, I think he's 3 or 4 at SF. Which is still amazing in itself. But when u are talking passing guys like MJ, Wilt, and Kareem (all had tremendous longevity being great players in addition to their other accomplishments and impact) Bron's gonna have to really put the foot on the gas. He can't just coast into that top 5 GOAT territory. I do think he's very capable of it though!

[DMAVS41]

One thing I take into account is longevity. I expect Lebron to play something along the lines of 16-20 seasons due to just how durable he's been throughout his career and his age. When thats the case, it would be hard for me to rank him below someone like Magic, Bird, or Wilt when he's also accomplished that much. Even if he's never as good as those guys at their peak, the fact that he plays so much longer might make me take him over them if I had to draft and build around one. The same would go for Kobe.

Longevity is the tough area. For me its all about quality seasons. Lebron already has 8 quality seasons as an elite player. 9 if you count his rookie year where he averaged 21/6/6 and more than doubled the wins for the Cavs.

For a guy like Kobe....he's played 13 quality seasons as an elite player. Bird only played 10 really due to injuries.

So how much does longevity matter? I don't know...its hard for me. Bird was definitely better than Kobe in my opinion, but if Kobe plays 5 more quality seasons....how do we rank Bird ahead of Kobe? Is that fair?

Its really the toughest thing to answer. Karl Malone played like 17 or 18 quality seasons. Duncan has played 12 or 13 quality seasons. Duncan was the better player, but Malone played like 4 or 5 seasons longer in which he was elite.

In the past I've used the 12 best seasons of a players' career to compare one another because that seemed like a good and fair number given the chances in longevity. We have to account for the simple fact that its easier to play longer now. Bird would have probably had 13 or more elite seasons with modern medicine and equipment....same for other players.

Its a good discussion and one of the toughest things to figure out.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying that he had to stay in Cleveland, but he didn't have to form the most stacked team of all time, either. If he really belongs in the top-10 discussion, then he wouldn't have felt the need to do so.

What he did shows his own admission of his self worth (or lack thereof). I don't know what it's gonna take you guys to see that. Maybe another finals disappearing act?

Or maybe he wanted to play with two great friends in South Beach. Couldn't it be that simple.

And again.....Lebron choosing to play in Miami does not make him less of a basketball player. Its a total logic fail.

Did it make Magic less when he admitted he would have gone back to college if not getting to play with Kareem.

Come on now. The truth is that Russell, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, and Bird played with stacked teams throughout their careers. Lebron played with average help at best for 7 years already. Such a double standard.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Or maybe he wanted to play with two great friends in South Beach. Couldn't it be that simple.


lol. even lequit said miami presented the best chance for a chip in his opinion, hence build his "winning" legacy.

also strangely convinient his 2 best friends were top 2 and top 10 nba players at the time lulz

[Yanch856]

:oldlol: Wow. Anyone that thinks his failures in the last 2 years has nothing to do with mental toughness doesn't deserve to have an opinion taken seriously.

Not sure I buy the mental toughness argument.

The most dominant Lebron I've seen is playing with his back to the basket. With his size and quickness his post game looked unstoppable and reminds me of Shaq in his prime. This is something that Wade could never do no matter how much roids he wants to pump.

But for some reason Lebron plays like a guard and jacks up threes out there. Talk about not playing to one's strength.

[pegasus]

Or maybe he wanted to play with two great friends in South Beach. Couldn't it be that simple.

And again.....Lebron choosing to play in Miami does not make him less of a basketball player. Its a total logic fail.

Did it make Magic less when he admitted he would have gone back to college if not getting to play with Kareem.

Come on now. The truth is that Russell, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, and Bird played with stacked teams throughout their careers. Lebron played with average help at best for 7 years already. Such a double standard.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You did not just type that with a straight face, did you?

[DMAVS41]

lol. even lequit said miami presented the best chance for a chip in his opinion, hence build his "winning" legacy.

of course winning was part of it. why wouldn't it be? don't we always hate on players in sports for choosing money over winning?

its just such a double standard. kobe and shaq played together for 8 years. magic and kareem played together for years with a stacked roster. russell played with probably the most stacked teams ever. Bird played with absurdly good rosters nearly every year of his career.

Lebron made that decision and he has to perform up to a certain standard. He knows that and his fans know it. He has to get that team to win 3 or 4 titles or it will be viewed as a failure.

But if he does win 3 or 4 titles....then I just don't see the difference. Its like everyone ignores that Kareem only won one title without Magic. That Shaq never won anything without Kobe and Wade. That Kobe won 3 of his titles playing with Shaq and two more with the best supporting cast in the league. Bird was the same.

That is why those guys are in the top 10. They were great players that won titles....and they won titles with stacked teams.

If its about winning the most with the least. Then Duncan should be GOAT....4 titles and had far less help than anyone winning 3 or more.

But that clearly isn't the standard.

[SwooshReturns]

Or maybe he wanted to play with two great friends in South Beach. Couldn't it be that simple.
And if he did ... what a fakkit.

Grown ass man in business needing to play with friends?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

This damn AAU / Twitter generation is pathetic.

Having sleep overs at Tim Tebow's house.

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

And if he did ... what a fakkit.

Grown ass man in business needing to play with friends?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

This damn AAU / Twitter generation is pathetic.

Having sleep overs at Tim Tebow's house.

:facepalm

And that is a reason not to like him as a player/person. Not a reason to judge his ability to play basketball.

I don't know why people can't see the difference.

[pegasus]

And that is a reason not to like him as a player/person. Not a reason to judge his ability to play basketball.

I don't know why people can't see the difference.

Having seen many of his choke jobs, you know damn well that's not why he signed there. Come on now, cut the act!

[SwooshReturns]

I don't know why people can't see the difference.
Because that weak MENTALITY and fragile MIND SET is an INTANGIBLE that seeps its way into ON COURT PERFORMANCE and PRODUCTION.

I don't know why LeBron stans can't understand the difference?

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Having seen many of his choke jobs, you know damn well that's not why he signed there. Come on now, cut the act!

Before Lebron signed in Miami he was pretty easily the most clutch player in the league. LOL

It was once he got to Miami that he started struggling in the clutch.

[DMAVS41]

Because that weak MENTALITY and fragile MIND SET is an INTANGIBLE that seeps its way into ON COURT PERFORMANCE and PRODUCTION.

I don't know why LeBron stans can't understand the difference?

:facepalm

1. I'm not a Lebron stan

2. Anything he does on the court is fair game. He deserves to be hammered for his play in game 5 of the 10 playoffs against the Celtics and for the finals last year. I have no issue with that. But ranking him lower because he joined the Heat is idiotic. Sorry.

[guy]

Longevity is the tough area. For me its all about quality seasons. Lebron already has 8 quality seasons as an elite player. 9 if you count his rookie year where he averaged 21/6/6 and more than doubled the wins for the Cavs.

For a guy like Kobe....he's played 13 quality seasons as an elite player. Bird only played 10 really due to injuries.

So how much does longevity matter? I don't know...its hard for me. Bird was definitely better than Kobe in my opinion, but if Kobe plays 5 more quality seasons....how do we rank Bird ahead of Kobe? Is that fair?

Its really the toughest thing to answer. Karl Malone played like 17 or 18 quality seasons. Duncan has played 12 or 13 quality seasons. Duncan was the better player, but Malone played like 4 or 5 seasons longer in which he was elite.

In the past I've used the 12 best seasons of a players' career to compare one another because that seemed like a good and fair number given the chances in longevity. We have to account for the simple fact that its easier to play longer now. Bird would have probably had 13 or more elite seasons with modern medicine and equipment....same for other players.

Its a good discussion and one of the toughest things to figure out.

Malone has no business being ahead of Duncan regardless of longevity just because of how huge of a choker he is. I'd still take Duncan over Malone despite less quality seasons because in any given season there's like 10x more of a chance of Malone just choking it away.

I kind of look at it as which player would I rather draft knowing what I know about there careers now if my ultimate goal is to win as much championships as possible. That would be a function of prime/peak and longevity.

[SwooshReturns]

Before Lebron signed in Miami he was pretty easily the most clutch player in the league.
:oldlol:

Wut?

That's why everyone was on his a$$ for clutch time passes to lesser players such as Donyell Marshall, when as star player he should taking full accountability win / lose and want the game's decision in HIS hands.

Stop making stuff up.

LeBron has NEVER been considered most clutch in the league.

Player / GM / Coaches polls always have picked (even as recently as last season) as wanting the ball in Kobe's hands 1st and foremost when the game is on the line.

[DMAVS41]

Malone has no business being ahead of Duncan regardless of longevity just because of how huge of a choker he is. I'd still take Duncan over Malone despite less quality seasons because in any given season there's like 10x more of a chance of Malone just choking it away.

Oh I agree. I rank Duncan way ahead of Malone, but the longevity issue is a real problem now. Especially with current player playing much longer than players as recently as 20 years ago.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

Wut?

That's why everyone was on his a$$ for clutch time passes to lesser players such as Donyell Marshall, when as star player he should taking full accountability win / lose and want the game's decision in HIS hands.

Stop making stuff up.

LeBron has NEVER been considered most clutch in the league.

Player / GM / Coaches polls always have picked (even as recently as last season) as wanting the ball in Kobe's hands 1st and foremost when the game is on the line.

Are you serious with this shit? Lebron was destroying Kobe for years in crunch time on the Cavs. It wasn't even close. Not to mention Lebron was better in game winning situations as well.

You have no ****ing clue what you are talking about. Its hilarious to this day that people ignore years of evidence for subjective opinions of people that haven't looked at any data.

Here are the facts:

Cavs had a better record than the Lakers in close games
Lebron outproduced Kobe in crunch time
Lebron was the better game winning shot maker and player

Those are just facts.

Last year is when this 4th qtr problem started for Lebron. Wake the **** up and come back to reality.

[SwooshReturns]

Its hilarious to this day that people ignore years of evidence for subjective opinions of people that haven't looked at any data.
Peers, coaches, GM's don't look at the data you look at ... you can't be that egotistical?

They don't have more first hand knowledge than yourself?

You actually think stats tell a whole story cut and dry?

You'd have to be on the little yellow bus, then.

[DMAVS41]

Peers, coaches, GM's don't look at the data you look at ... you can't be that egotistical?

They don't have more first hand knowledge than yourself?

You actually think stats tell a whole story cut and dry?

You'd have to be on the little yellow bus, then.

They tell a better story than the one GM's and coaches often do.

Last year coaches and gm's were polled on who they want taking the last shot. It was Kobe and Billups. Melo got no votes. Billups has been dreadful on game winning shots for like 7 years now. Something like 5 of 40. Melo is making them at a historic rate.

So are the wrong? Please answer. Is Melo a better game winning shot maker than Billups? Please answer. I'm confused.

Lebron was clutch on the Cavs. He wasn't very clutch last year. Facts are the facts. Nothing that happens now can change the fact that Lebron was one of the best...if not the best clutch player in the league during his time on the Cavs.

[Ca$H]

No.11 this year if he wins his 3rd MVP and his 1st Finals MVP.

If you replace wade with a clear 3rd option like mo williams and promote bosh to 2nd option then yes. Wade is a top five player so LeBron won't get
that much credit. When Kobe won 3 with a top 5 player as teammate
(shaq) nobody(besides stans) would argure that he is even top 15.
Playing with Wade diminishes LeBron's legacy.

[Da_Realist]

Lebron was more comfortable in Cleveland because

1) He got all the credit for dragging inferior teams further than they should have gone and

2) He got no blame when they ultimately lost because his teams were not expected to win.

No lose situation.

Now, in Miami it's the exact opposite. Winning 55 games in the regular season won't cut it. The Heat are expected to win. There's a difference between being expected to lose (and excused when it happens) than it is to be expected to win (NO excuses). Whole different kind of pressure.

Statistically speaking, Lebron's having a career year. His team is in 1st place...and no one cares. If he was in Cleveland right now, he'd be the toast of the league. "Too bad Lebron doesn't have the right cast or he'd win 8 titles straight!". Now all everyone cares about is how he does in the Finals. He has a contending team. No excuses. The Finals. That's the only thing that matters. He couldn't handle it last year. This year, the jury's still out.

[guy]

Lebron was more comfortable in Cleveland because

1) He got all the credit for dragging inferior teams further than they should have gone and

2) He got no blame when they ultimately lost because his teams were not expected to win.

No lose situation.

Now, in Miami it's the exact opposite. Winning 55 games in the regular season won't cut it. The Heat are expected to win. There's a difference between being expected to lose (and excused when it happens) than it is to be expected to win (NO excuses). Whole different kind of pressure.

Statistically speaking, Lebron's having a career year. His team is in 1st place...and no one cares. If he was in Cleveland right now, he'd be the toast of the league. "Too bad Lebron doesn't have the right cast or he'd win 8 titles straight!". Now all everyone cares about is how he does in the Finals. He has a contending team. No excuses. The Finals. That's the only thing that matters. He couldn't handle it last year. This year, the jury's still out.

Exactly. This is part of the reason his clutch ability seemed to take a complete 180 once he joined the Heat.

[Timmy D for MVP]

This is actually an interesting question. See the precedent had been set to team up to form these teams. It's just a new era: AAU which leads to a lot of agent sharing which leads to guys teaming up with their buddies.

See I think potentially he could be top-3. And I think as time goes on and this type of thing becomes more and more common people will start to relax off their ill sentiment for him teaming up with two other players of Wade and Bosh's caliber.

But he'll need titles, and FMVPs.

[guy]

This is actually an interesting question. See the precedent had been set to team up to form these teams. It's just a new era: AAU which leads to a lot of agent sharing which leads to guys teaming up with their buddies.

See I think potentially he could be top-3. And I think as time goes on and this type of thing becomes more and more common people will start to relax off their ill sentiment for him teaming up with two other players of Wade and Bosh's caliber.

But he'll need titles, and FMVPs.

I don't think the Wade/Bosh factor matters that much anymore. Wade's on the decline first of all, and will probably be a shell of himself in 2 years or so plus those two are not really that great of a fit anyway. Plus alot of teams now have 2-3 great players such as the Thunder, Clippers, Lakers, Knicks, etc, or there building around 1 superstar with an incredible amount of depth such as the Bulls, Mavs, etc. Bottom line is its not like he has a shortage of competition. He just needs to the beat them. Him joining Wade has shown alot about his mentality though and the lack of competitive nature in this league it seems. Lebron and Wade looked like they were going to have a huge rivalry for the rest of their careers. No way do two players that were that great and that similar join up in previous eras.

[TheMan]

LBJ needs to start winning NOW, he's been in the league almost a decade, the wear and tear on his body is not the same if he went to college and started at 22, he has a window of 4 or 5 years tops of athletic prime before he noticibly starts declining.

If he wins 3 or 4 titles with 2 or 3 FMVPs, (Wade can easily win them too), he might go 6-8 all time, I think the ship sailed on top 5 because people will use the 2011 Finals MIA (I read that his 10 pt drop off from reg season pts avg to Finals pts avg was one of the biggest ever in NBA history) as well as other playoffs series where he underperformed against him, fair or not, it is what it is.

[LJJ]

When it's all said and done he'll unquestionably be the best player of his generation.

One more MVP and a finals MVP would place him firmly in the top 10, slightly ahead of players such as Moses, Kobe and Jerry West. Another championship and he's easily in the conversation with Shaq and Duncan, arguably ranked ahead of them.

[pauk]

Lebron was more comfortable in Cleveland because

1) He got all the credit for dragging inferior teams further than they should have gone and

2) He got no blame when they ultimately lost because his teams were not expected to win.

No lose situation.

Now, in Miami it's the exact opposite. Winning 55 games in the regular season won't cut it. The Heat are expected to win. There's a difference between being expected to lose (and excused when it happens) than it is to be expected to win (NO excuses). Whole different kind of pressure.

Statistically speaking, Lebron's having a career year. His team is in 1st place...and no one cares. If he was in Cleveland right now, he'd be the toast of the league. "Too bad Lebron doesn't have the right cast or he'd win 8 titles straight!". Now all everyone cares about is how he does in the Finals. He has a contending team. No excuses. The Finals. That's the only thing that matters. He couldn't handle it last year. This year, the jury's still out.

Yes... but did Lebron make miracles with that Cavs team immediately? No he didnt... It took a couple of years before everybody was in sync, knew eachothers habbits, had great chemistry, knowing the system and knowing perfectly how to contemplate eachother........

This is the first time in Lebrons life where he has a taste of what Kobe, Bird, Magic and so on had most of their careers on a silverplate.... an actual great team where he doesnt have to be a one many army...

Last season he had to learn how to not be this "one man army" and share the ball and play more of the ball... so did Wade & Bosh... overall that team didnt have great chemistry due to it being their first year together, they were trying very hard to find a way to contemplate eachother and so on..... they got to the Finals and almost won the championship anyways based on raw talent alone.... and they could have still won it if they didnt choke in the clutch....

I didnt say they were gona win a championship last year for the reasons above, and like i said a couple of times this year, this team will win a championship THIS YEAR......... This Miami Heat team today has completed that process..... they are much better in any shape or form...

There is absolutely no excuse anybody can use if Miami Heat doesnt win a championship this year........ no excuse whatsoever......... this is it.... this is the time...... unless one of the big 3 gets injured i dont see how they can not win a championship this year....

[Faptastrophe]

Lebron is just unbelievable. He will go down as one of the five best players to ever play the game when it's all said and done. Last year hardened him, and made him realize that his home is on the court and that's where his legacy will be forged. And his level of play this year is proof of that. It's not an exaggeration to say that the way he's playing this year is right up there with the best the game has ever been played by anybody.
Of course, he does have to prove it in the finals this year. But I think it's his time. Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win one until he was 28 and Lebron James is...27. So let's have a bit of patience, since this is the clearly the best he's ever played and this is the best team he's ever played for.
But if he doesn't win one this year, it's not going to get any easier for him.

[Meticode]

If he stayed in Cleveland and brought one or two championships to the city you could possibly consider him at top 5. Since moving to Miami if he wins 2-4 championships I think he'll only be considered 5-10. It just isn't as big of a legacy or importance the way he'd win in Miami versus Cleveland.

[Lebron23]

Lebron is just unbelievable. He will go down as one of the five best players to ever play the game when it's all said and done. Last year hardened him, and made him realize that his home is on the court and that's where his legacy will be forged. And his level of play this year is proof of that. It's not an exaggeration to say that the way he's playing this year is right up there with the best the game has ever been played by anybody.
Of course, he does have to prove it in the finals this year. But I think it's his time. Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win one until he was 28 and Lebron James is...27. So let's have a bit of patience, since this is the clearly the best he's ever played and this is the best team he's ever played for.
But if he doesn't win one this year, it's not going to get any easier for him.


I like your avatar. Best LBJ avatar on Insidehoops.

[gengiskhan]

definitely above Kobe bryant easily.