Is Dirk Nowitzki Underrated??

[brahmabull117]

His career shooting numbers (48-38-88) are absolutely incredible and he's one of the most efficient offensive players ever




Shouldn't he be widely considered a top 10 player in NBA history??

[bmulls]

His career shooting numbers (48-38-88) are absolutely incredible and he's one of the most efficient offensive players ever




Shouldn't he be widely considered a top 10 player in NBA history??

If they weren't robbed in 2006 I think he would probably be top 15

[The Choken One]

Top 30? Probably.

Top 10? No...

[rodman91]

Not top ten but I rank him over Garnett

[Kews1]

Not top ten but I rank him over Garnett
:lol

How do you come to that conclusion

[bmulls]

:lol

How do you come to that conclusion

He led his team to a championship, KG did not? :confusedshrug:

[rodman91]

:lol

How do you come to that conclusion

FMVP with one of the best title runs ever.

[Kews1]

He led his team to a championship, KG did not? :confusedshrug:

KG never had anywhere near as many chances at a championship as Dirk did. KG had at most one really legit team and that year he got to WCF. KG was also still the most important part of the celtics 2008 championship

[Kews1]

FMVP with one of the best title runs ever.

One FMVP & one playoff run doesn't make a career. Dirk barley cracks top 25.

[linZoMourning]

KG never had anywhere near as many chances at a championship as Dirk did. KG had at most one really legit team and that year he got to WCF. KG was also still the most important part of the celtics 2008 championship

agreed agreed agreed, :cheers:

[Kevin_Gamble]

Probably, though that's largely because Karl Malone and Barkley are so overrated.

[rodman91]

One FMVP & one playoff run doesn't make a career. Dirk barley cracks top 25.

It does make a career. Championship as franchise player matters. Other than that Dirk has been all time elite playoff performer...One of the four guys +25 & +10 career in playoffs. Former MVP as well.

Only 3 different has been on finals for western teams since 1999. Shaq's Lakers (4),Duncan's Spurs (4) & Kobe's Lakers (2), Nowitzki's Mavericks (2)

Kevin Garnett's title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki's title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg


Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games


They have faced eachother in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.

[WockaVodka]

I felt like he was underrated before he won the title last season but he has been somewhat overrated since.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Yeah Dirk is one of the all-time greats. Probably top 20 at this point. He is easily better than Kevin Garnett as indicated above. The difference is you can win a title with Dirk as your go-to guy. As good as KG was you he could never win a title as the primary scoring option. In 2008 it was Pierce. Even in his prime in 2003-2004 part of the reason they were so successfull is because they had Sam Cassell to be the go to guy in key moments. Dirk is probably one of the 5 best offensive players ever in the halfcourt and is just ****ing great as a go to option. He literally put the team on his shoulders in that playoff run and it is more than enough to put him over KG.

[Bless Mathews]

Anyone that horrible on defense should not be considered top 10 all time.

Maybe top 10 offense, just because he a very hard matchup

[Figlo]

Duncan
Malone
Barkley
KG
Nowitzki
trolololollo



the rest

[ralph_i_el]

His fadeaway may be the single most unstoppable move in NBA history

[BarberSchool]

Dirk is One of the four guys +25 & +10 career in playoffs. Former MVP as well.

Kevin Garnett's title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki's title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg


Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games


They have faced eachother in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.cut and dry who is the better playoff and finals performer. Garnett barked a whole lot but never had as much bite as his self-fueled hype claimed.

[Bless Mathews]

His fadeaway may be the single most unstoppable move in NBA history

You do smoke crack....

Kareems sky hook.

[BarberSchool]

You do smoke crack....

Kareems sky hook.
NO sh!t man. It kills me to see how much ISH overlooks how completely unstoppable Kareem was on both sides of the floor. Jabbar is massively underrated in general. I have him #2 all time behind Mike.

[Kews1]

KG is still higher on the all time list, he did alot of things in Minnesota with a team of nobody's year after year were as Dirk always had decent players around him. Those stats obviously show that Dirk preformed better statistically in the playoffs and obviously he was the guy on a team that won a championship which holds considerable weight also but as far as all time and skilled players KG still had the much better all around game on both ends of the floor he was a defensive beast,led the league in rebounds from 2003-2007 & top 10 in defensive win shares from 1999-2011. Dirk obviously is the better offensive player but KG murders him on all round ability not to mention KG is one of the best big man ball handlers ever.

Had KG not been held back by Minnesota he would have been much better off luckily dude left for the Celtics

[DMAVS41]

KG vs Dirk is really just preference at this point. They should be ranked very close to each other all time.

I still rank KG higher at this point, but Dirk will most likely finish ahead of him on my list because Dirk is still elite.

[Round Mound]

He is because he is white. He is the 2nd Best Forward in the League after Lebron James

Offensively he is just below Barkley and Malone

Defensively Garnett was Better but he Garnett was never a 1st Option Efficient Scorer.

Barkley 1-2 Top PF after Duncan maybe
Malone Top 3 PF
Dirk Top 5-6 SF/PF
Garnett Top 5-6 PF/SF

Right there with McHale and Bob Pettit

[DMAVS41]

He is because he is white. He is the 2nd Best Forward in the League after Lebron James

Offensively he is just below Barkley and Malone

Defensively Garnett was Better but he Garnett was never a 1st Option Efficient Scorer.

Barkley 1-2 Top PF after Duncan maybe
Malone Top 3 PF
Dirk Top 5-6 SF/PF
Garnett Top 5-6 PF/SF

Right there with McHale and Bob Pettit

McHale simply was not the player Dirk is. I think Barkley, Malone, KG, and Dirk can all be debated after Duncan clearly being the best PF ever.

I'd take Dirk over Barkley, Malone, and KG as a player though. Where Dirk ranks all time is a bit harder.

[LamarOdom]

It does make a career. Championship as franchise player matters. Other than that Dirk has been all time elite playoff performer...One of the four guys +25 & +10 career in playoffs. Former MVP as well.

Only 3 different has been on finals for western teams since 1999. Shaq's Lakers (4),Duncan's Spurs (4) & Kobe's Lakers (2), Nowitzki's Mavericks (2)

Kevin Garnett's title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki's title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg


Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games


They have faced eachother in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.

Yes because determining the best player is made only by points, absolutely nothing matters just as long as you rack up the pts. All hail Allen Iverson the GOAT!

[DMAVS41]

Yes because determining the best player is made only by points, absolutely nothing matters just as long as you rack up the pts. All hail Allen Iverson the GOAT!

Of course not, but Dirk has been one of the best clutch players in the history of the NBA. There are probably only a 5 to 10 players you would rather have on your team with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game other than Dirk. Not eve sure there are that many.

So when you combine Dirk's unique offensive game that is literally impossible to game plan for and his ability to close out games in the playoffs....it becomes a legit debate on who you would rather have...Dirk or KG.

Of course KG's defense matters a lot. But so does Dirk's ability to be a true championship first option.

[LamarOdom]

Of course not, but Dirk has been one of the best clutch players in the history of the NBA. There are probably only a 5 to 10 players you would rather have on your team with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game other than Dirk. Not eve sure there are that many.

So when you combine Dirk's unique offensive game that is literally impossible to game plan for and his ability to close out games in the playoffs....it becomes a legit debate on who you would rather have...Dirk or KG.

Of course KG's defense matters a lot. But so does Dirk's ability to be a true championship first option.

I would rather have KG, not that i don't like Dirk, great offensive player top 10 all time maybe but i just think he lacks to much defense, not the best rebounder while KG one of the best defender/rebounder in his prime and count in that this guy at 7 ft averaged 6 assist per game while putting up mid 20 in points and it's pretty easy to rank him above Dirk and one of the the best PF in history.

KG is with no doubt top 20 best ever. Dirk?no.

[DMAVS41]

I would rather have KG, not that i don't like Dirk, great offensive player top 10 all time maybe but i just think he lacks to much defense, not the best rebounder while KG one of the best defender/rebounder in his prime and count in that this guy at 7 ft averaged 6 assist per game while putting up mid 20 in points and it's pretty easy to rank him above Dirk and one of the the best PF in history.

KG is with no doubt top 20 best ever. Dirk?no.


Well, Dirk is without a doubt top 20 all time in my opinion. As for defense, Dirk is no KG, but he's hardly a terrible defender. He was never terrible, but he was bad early on in his career. Since 05 though Dirk has been an above average defender actually. Way too much is made of Dirk's defense actually. Back in 03 that was fair. Now? Not really. Take this year for example, the Mavs have a very good defense. 3rd in defensive rating and probably top 5 overall. That simply wouldn't be possible if Dirk was the terrible defender people make him out to be.

And rebounding. Dirk has averaged 10.4 rebounds per game for his career in the playoffs. KG has averaged 11.1.

Rebounding rate?

Dirk 14.4
KG 17.1

No doubt KG has been the better rebounder, but Dirk has been far better than most people give him credit for.

The truth is that Dirk has led one of the most successful regular season runs in NBA history. 11 straight seasons over 50 wins. And he's been one of the best playoff performers in NBA history. Averaging 26/10/3 on the highest scoring efficiency of any player in playoff history scoring over25 ppg. He's had one of the best and most improbable playoff runs of all time as well.

If that doesn't get you in the top 20 all time and pretty much even with a guy like KG...then logic is being thrown out.

[Kews1]

Of course not, but Dirk has been one of the best clutch players in the history of the NBA. There are probably only a 5 to 10 players you would rather have on your team with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game other than Dirk. Not eve sure there are that many.

So when you combine Dirk's unique offensive game that is literally impossible to game plan for and his ability to close out games in the playoffs....it becomes a legit debate on who you would rather have...Dirk or KG.

Of course KG's defense matters a lot. But so does Dirk's ability to be a true championship first option.

If KG was on decent teams in his prime like Duncan and Dirk he would of easily been a championship first option, but 90% of the time he had to play with people who's names people here would struggle to remember. First time he got a decent team he was in the WCF. Second time he got a decent team NBA Champion and he was the main reason for that championship (and in case you forgot that year he won DPOTY and was 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting so its obvious he was the most vital piece of the championship)

[knickswin]

dirk is very underrated. i mean, even this year people were talking about kevin love and lamarcus aldridge as the best pf's in the league. no. that would be dirk, and it's not even a contest. he started off slow, but everyone knew he'd get it going eventually, and having watched some of his last few games, he's definitely back. he was great against the knicks today. knicks played well too though.

[DMAVS41]

If KG was on decent teams in his prime like Duncan and Dirk he would of easily been a championship first option, but 90% of the time he had to play with people who's names people here would struggle to remember. First time he got a decent team he was in the WCF. Second time he got a decent team NBA Champion and he was the main reason for that championship (and in case you forgot that year he won DPOTY and was 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting so its obvious he was the most vital piece of the championship)

Yea...I think he would have been as well, but the sad thing is that we will never know. I love KG....always been a big fan and defender of him. He does have a few limitations in his game / mindset that I worry about him leading a team in crunch time nigh in night out in the playoffs.

Might not matter though if he had a 2nd option like Pierce or a different elite wing player to help out. Which most title teams have to begin with.

It really sucks that KG's career was somewhat wasted in Minnesota. But he's a top 20 player of all time in my opinion and that is probably where he should be.

[StateOfMind12]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.

[DMAVS41]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.

I disagree for a few things, but I'm curious to know why you rank Malone over Dirk. Is it a longevity thing or is it for other reasons?

[StateOfMind12]

I disagree for a few things, but I'm curious to know why you rank Malone over Dirk. Is it a longevity thing or is it for other reasons?
Tell me what you disagree with.

Malone is above Dirk for a few reasons. Malone having superior longevity is one of them and Malone being the better player in his prime and peak is the other. I think Malone is far more clutch than most people give him credit for. He obviously had his moments of choking but he was also had his moments of being clutch.

I think that is why the Lebron being the Malone of this era is a fair comparison because Lebron is also more clutch than what most give him credit for.

Btw, I hope we are talking about Karl Malone here and not Moses Malone.

[WockaVodka]

Kevin Garnett's title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki's title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg


Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games


They have faced eachother in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.
Sadly there is no stat for defense. KG is one of the greatest defensive players and anchors of all-time. Dirk was not as bad of a defender as most people said or thought he was but he was not even close to KG, at all.

[DMAVS41]

Tell me what you disagree with.

Malone is above Dirk for a few reasons. Malone having superior longevity is one of them and Malone being the better player in his prime and peak is the other. I think Malone is far more clutch than most people give him credit for. He obviously had his moments of choking but he was also had his moments of being clutch.

I think that is why the Lebron being the Malone of this era is a fair comparison because Lebron is also more clutch than what most give him credit for.

Btw, I hope we are talking about Karl Malone here and not Moses Malone.

Yea....Karl Malone.

I disagree with Dr. J being that high. But I don't want to debate that.

Obviously Malone was better statistically at his peak, but I don't believe he was the better player. I just don't think Malone could have ever done what Dirk did in the playoffs last year....or really 06 for that matter against the Spurs.

I understand the longevity part though. Malone was just so good for so long. Malone had what...like 17 quality years in which he was either elite or very very good. That longevity is insane. This will only be Dirk's 12th year like that. Dirk needs 2 or 3 years in my opinion to get somewhat close to Malone's incredible longevity.

So I get ranking Malone higher at this point on longevity, but I don't see it on prime or peak. Malone put up great numbers....and I totally agree he's hated on way too much for not being clutch. He was actually far more clutch than people give him credit for. However, he did have some pieces to his game missing that prevented him from being the clutch player Dirk was. Its not that Malone wasn't a good player in the clutch....its that Dirk is incredibly good.

Also, its just hard to overlook Malone never winning playing his entire career with Stockton. I'm usually not a "rings" matter more than anything guy, but we at the very least have to mention the fact that Malone never won while playing with an all time great.

[StateOfMind12]

Obviously Malone was better statistically at his peak, but I don't believe he was the better player.
Dirk was the better closer and shooter than Malone was but Malone was better than Dirk at every other aspect. I'm not sure how this makes Malone a worse player than Dirk was.


I just don't think Malone could have ever done what Dirk did in the playoffs last year....or really 06 for that matter against the Spurs.
What are you referring to? The fact that he couldn't lead his team to the Finals without an all-star? Well this is honestly nothing more than a hyopthetical so we will never know. Malone was not as dependent on Stockton like many people claim and say. Malone was clearly capable of creating his own shot. Stockton made his life easier I'm sure but Malone was going to drop those points regardless.



Also, its just hard to overlook Malone never winning playing his entire career with Stockton. I'm usually not a "rings" matter more than anything guy, but we at the very least have to mention the fact that Malone never won while playing with an all time great.
I give him the "MJ pass." Malone had to go up against MJ twice in the 1997 and 1998 NBA Finals. Is there much shame in losing to the greatest player of all-time? I don't think so, so it is hard to really blame Malone for never winning a ring.

He played with an all-time great in Stockton but Stockton is relatively overrated.

Stockton was never a top 10 player in the league and if he was it was probably like 1-2 seasons at the most. For the most part Stockton was a player outside of the top 10, in the top 11-15 range. The reason why Stockton was so great though was how consistent and long he was in the top 11-15 range. Stockton's prime/peak was never really strong is pretty much what I am assuming. He was practically the same player from the 80s as he was in the 2000s.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was the better closer and shooter than Malone was but Malone was better than Dirk at every other aspect. I'm not sure how this makes Malone a worse player than Dirk was.


What are you referring to? The fact that he couldn't lead his team to the Finals without an all-star? Well this is honestly nothing more than a hyopthetical so we will never know. Malone was not as dependent on Stockton like many people claim and say. Malone was clearly capable of creating his own shot. Stockton made his life easier I'm sure but Malone was going to drop those points regardless.



I give him the "MJ pass." Malone had to go up against MJ twice in the 1997 and 1998 NBA Finals. Is there much shame in losing to the greatest player of all-time? I don't think so, so it is hard to really blame Malone for never winning a ring.

He played with an all-time great in Stockton but Stockton is relatively overrated.

Stockton was never a top 10 player in the league and if he was it was probably like 1-2 seasons at the most. For the most part Stockton was a player outside of the top 10, in the top 11-15 range. The reason why Stockton was so great though was how consistent and long he was in the top 11-15 range. Stockton's prime/peak was never really strong is pretty much what I am assuming. He was practically the same player from the 80s as he was in the 2000s.


Yea, I expected the "better at everything else" argument. And I'm not really knocking it because it is kind of true. Malone was a better defender and rebounder. But I think what Dirk gives you is simply more valuable overall.

Dirk's rebounding is under-rated. As is his defense.

When I said I'm not sure Malone could have done what Dirk has did in 06 or last year....I meant carry a team and come through in the clutch night in night out in the playoffs and lead a team to the title.

I understand that Malone lost to MJ twice.....but what about every other year?

And what about Dirk going through Duncan's Spurs in 06 or what about the road to the title last year. 3 very good teams including beating the defending back to back champs and then beating a team in the finals that most people here were calling "so good its unfair".....

Great players need to do great things. Malone was great no doubt, but he had chances. So I can't just give him a pass for never winning.

The facts are that he never won despite adequate chances. Also, Malone didn't play all that well in 97 either in the finals. I can't remember the exact stats or specifics, but he had 3 lackluster games to end that series....2 of them were losses.

Its not like I'm saying Dirk was for sure better than Malone or something. I think its every close. I just take issue with saying Malone was definitely the better player. Statistically that may be true, but we all know if you had to pick one of them to be on your team going into the 4th qtr of a close playoff game it would be without a doubt Dirk. And that matters a lot to me.

Especially when statistically in the playoffs they are so close to begin with:

Dirk 26/10/3 58.4% TS

Malone (if you cut off his last 3 seasons) 26/11/3 54% TS

[StateOfMind12]

I expected the "better at everything else" argument. And I'm not really knocking it because it is kind of true. Malone was a better defender and rebounder. But I think what Dirk gives you is simply more valuable overall.
While I do think scoring is worth far more than any other aspect of the game, Malone was no slouch of a scorer. The guy was a consistent 25-30 ppg scorer every night for every season for about 15+ seasons.

Malone was not a better shooter than Dirk but he was a better finisher than him.

Dirk is a more unique PF while Malone is the more traditionally PF.


Dirk's rebounding is under-rated. As is his defense.
I don't disagree but Malone was still better at him in those areas and he was far better defensively.

Malone was a PJ Brown, Kevin McHale, Charles Oakley, Kendrick Perkins type defender. He was no anchor like a Kevin Garnett, Hakeem Olajuwon, etc. but he was still a great defender and would be great a defensive addition for any team or championship team. Malone was also one of the greatest defensive PFs in NBA history. I can't say the same for Dirk. He is just average or maybe a little above average.


I understand that Malone lost to MJ twice.....but what about every other year?
The Jazz never had much outside of Stockton and Malone outside of '96-'98 or somewhere within that time frame. They definitely lacked a lot in the late 80s and in the early 90s though. It was practically a two-man team out there.


Especially when statistically in the playoffs they are so close to begin with:

Dirk 26/10/3 58.4% TS

Malone (if you cut off his last 3 seasons) 26/11/3 54% TS
Sadly, defense isn't a stat and we all know how great of a defender Malone was.

[Odinn]

Shouldn't he be widely considered a top 10 player in NBA history??
:roll: :roll: :roll:

I love Dirk but this is just ridicilous.:oldlol:
16-22 range would be accurate for Nowitzki. But 15th spot or higher? Just NO.


Sadly there is no stat for defense. KG is one of the greatest defensive players and anchors of all-time. Dirk was not as bad of a defender as most people said or thought he was but he was not even close to KG, at all.
Nowitzki's offense: 9
KG's offense: 8
Nowitzki's defense: 4
KG's defense: 8

Nowitzki 13, KG 16. That doesn't work. Their overall impact is pretty damn close and Nowitzki's resume is better.

Duncan and Nowitzki was those go-to-guys, they made all-time great playoff runs. Both of them won without All-Star or All-NBA teammate and Garnett didn't make something special except 2004 when he was that go-to-guy. That's why Garnett should be ranked behind of Nowitzki.

[Teanett]

the old kg vs dirk question...
they were on the same level until '09.
but look at them the last four seasons.
kg has become a (very good) role player.
diggler is still the best power forward in the game.

dirk>kg

now, all-time and forever

[bizil]

As great as Dirk is, he's not top 10 worthy. He is a top 4-5 GOAT PF of all time and a top 25-30 player though. However, Dirk still has some very good to great years left in my book. The way Dirk plays lends itself to having great longevity barring a serious injury. In terms of scoring the rock, he's arguably the best PF of all time. However, there is a certain premium for the boards, D, and toughness at the PF spot. This is where Dirk falls behind the other great PF's. But his offensive impact is so great. And he's the ultimate mismatch at the PF. So it supercedes those premium PF qualities he may fall behind in. He's revolutionized the PF spot and by the end of his career he might end up as high as number 2 on the PF chart. Which would then get him in that 15-20 range GOAT wise overall.

[CardiacKemba]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.

I agree with your 11-20 for the most part. I never usually like ranking players (1 over another), but I give Dirk in the 15-20 range. I understand putting Karl over Dirk too. Dirk is an offensive juggernaut, but Malone had the defensive game to compliment his offense. I can understand peoples reasoning for Dirk over Karl though, as many place the importance of rings in their all-time listings.

I have trouble putting LeBron as top 20 at the moment too (coming from a Heat and LeBron fan btw). 21-25 is all I can give him until further proving himself. I can see Wade as possibly just inside the 20, but would personally have him 21-25. Even if he did go ringless his whole career though (I think he will/could win anywhere between 1-5), he could crack top 20 just like Malone, if he held longevity and his numbers to a reasonable extent.

[winnnaz]

KG>Dirka Dirka

KG never had the talent next to him in his Minny days.
Anyone who says Cassell/Sprewell + scrubs is a good supporting cast...trololol.

As it stands, they both have 1 championship. So titles can't come into consideration.
KG is a perennial all-defensive 1st team candidate, something that Dirk could NEVER reach.
Give me awesome defence and good offence over slightly better offence with mediocre defence. NOT to mention rebounding/playmaking.

KG is also more of a natural leader..look what he did with the C's..literally changed them into a defensive powerhouse..

Saying this, I wouldn't say that KG is miles ahead of Dirk.
Although I just believe what he brings to the court is more critical to success.

[madmax]

I think he is underrated and is definitely a better player than Garnett or Barkley were...of course, the fact that he is "soft euro" and doesn't jump very high is not very marketable to NBA target audiences, so he constantly gets overlooked

[97 bulls]

Dirk should not be ranked higher than garnett due to "leading" his team to a championship. Garnett played just as big a role on the celtics run as dirk did on the mavs run. Garnett has a dpoy, and led the league in rebounding titles few times.

It seems to me you dirk fans are crediting dirk based on who had the better team. That's not fair.

[RaininTwos]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.There is absolutely no reason why Wade should be 19th all time. None what so ever. He shouldn't be anywhere near the top 20.

[97 bulls]

Of course not, but Dirk has been one of the best clutch players in the history of the NBA. There are probably only a 5 to 10 players you would rather have on your team with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game other than Dirk. Not eve sure there are that many.

So when you combine Dirk's unique offensive game that is literally impossible to game plan for and his ability to close out games in the playoffs....it becomes a legit debate on who you would rather have...Dirk or KG.

Of course KG's defense matters a lot. But so does Dirk's ability to be a true championship first option.
Lol he's won one championship. But how many times have the mavs lost as the favorite? At least twice.

As far as last year, I thought I set you straight before, the mavs were in a dogfight against an injured portland team, then swept an unmotivated lakers team that almost lost to an injured hornets team in the first round, then beat a young immature thunder team, and dirk didn't really play at a high level vs the heat.

[97 bulls]

There is absolutely no reason why Wade should be 19th all time. None what so ever. He shouldn't be anywhere near the top 20.
Truer words have never been spoken.

[StateOfMind12]

Duncan and Nowitzki was those go-to-guys, they made all-time great playoff runs. Both of them won without All-Star or All-NBA teammate and Garnett didn't make something special except 2004 when he was that go-to-guy. That's why Garnett should be ranked behind of Nowitzki.
Garnett was the #1 option on the 2008 championship run, he just wasn't the closer because Pierce and Allen were.

If you meant to talk about how Dirk was the closer and KG wasn't, it shouldn't matter though because Kobe was the closer on 2 of the 3 championships on the 1st 3-peat of the Lakers. Kobe was actually the closer in 4 of the 5 championships he won while Shaq was only the closer in 1 of the 4 championships he won. Does that make Kobe above Shaq? I don't think so. I've seen people put Kobe above Shaq on the all-time list and they aren't even Kobe homers but I just don't see the argument.

Garnett's weakness was always the fact that he lacked assertion in the 4th quarter and he was too unselfish. Garnett fit perfectly with Allen and Pierce in the '08 Celtics.

I honestly think that there is a more likely chance that KG could do what Dirk did with the Mavericks in 2011 than what Dirk could do what KG did with the Celtics in 2008.

I say this mainly because the Mavericks already had another closer on the team in Jason Terry while the Celtics did not have another defensive anchor outside of Kevin Garnett.

I don't think either one could win a championship or would be likely to win a championship swapping roles though but I think it is more likely that KG would be more successful than Dirk would swapping roles.




I have trouble putting LeBron as top 20 at the moment too (coming from a Heat and LeBron fan btw). 21-25 is all I can give him until further proving himself. I can see Wade as possibly just inside the 20, but would personally have him 21-25. Even if he did go ringless his whole career though (I think he will/could win anywhere between 1-5), he could crack top 20 just like Malone, if he held longevity and his numbers to a reasonable extent.
Good post, but who do you think should be the guys above LeBron and Wade from those 15-20 spots?

[DMAVS41]

Lol he's won one championship. But how many times have the mavs lost as the favorite? At least twice.

As far as last year, I thought I set you straight before, the mavs were in a dogfight against an injured portland team, then swept an unmotivated lakers team that almost lost to an injured hornets team in the first round, then beat a young immature thunder team, and dirk didn't really play at a high level vs the heat.

Set me straight?

Name a harder road to the title than what the Mavs faced last year? There won't be many on the list. I'll be waiting....

How many times has Dirk been a title favorite? 1...in 07. That was the only year his team was ever favored to win the title going into the playoffs.

That playoff roster of guys that played:

Dirk
Terry
Howard
Stackhouse
Harris
Diop
George
Croshere
Ager

On what ****ed up planet is that a team that should definitely win it all? ROFL....

[DMAVS41]

While I do think scoring is worth far more than any other aspect of the game, Malone was no slouch of a scorer. The guy was a consistent 25-30 ppg scorer every night for every season for about 15+ seasons.

Malone was not a better shooter than Dirk but he was a better finisher than him.

Dirk is a more unique PF while Malone is the more traditionally PF.


I don't disagree but Malone was still better at him in those areas and he was far better defensively.

Malone was a PJ Brown, Kevin McHale, Charles Oakley, Kendrick Perkins type defender. He was no anchor like a Kevin Garnett, Hakeem Olajuwon, etc. but he was still a great defender and would be great a defensive addition for any team or championship team. Malone was also one of the greatest defensive PFs in NBA history. I can't say the same for Dirk. He is just average or maybe a little above average.


The Jazz never had much outside of Stockton and Malone outside of '96-'98 or somewhere within that time frame. They definitely lacked a lot in the late 80s and in the early 90s though. It was practically a two-man team out there.


Sadly, defense isn't a stat and we all know how great of a defender Malone was.

It seems like we pretty much agree.

Although when I say Dirk is better offensively....I actually don't mean as a scorer. I mean that Dirk could have an offense run through him in the 4th qtr of a playoff game to an extent that Malone could not. You could rely on Dirk more because his game was suited to it. Amazing ft shooter...can get his shot from anywhere. Is a threat from the 3 point line. Far more clutch than Malone. That is what I mean. Malone was great for the first 3 qtrs when the game is more up and down and each possession isn't as highly contested. But when the game slowed down and Malone needed to produce.....he just wasn't on the same level as Dirk.

Defensively Malone was for sure better, but I don't think Malone qualifies as a great defender. He was good for sure, but he didn't impact the game like a Duncan or KG did or anything. So while he was a better defender, the impact of his defense is only marginally better than Dirk's.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I love Dirk but this is just ridicilous.:oldlol:
16-22 range would be accurate for Nowitzki. But 15th spot or higher? Just NO.


Nowitzki's offense: 9
KG's offense: 8
Nowitzki's defense: 4
KG's defense: 8

Nowitzki 13, KG 16. That doesn't work. Their overall impact is pretty damn close and Nowitzki's resume is better.

Duncan and Nowitzki was those go-to-guys, they made all-time great playoff runs. Both of them won without All-Star or All-NBA teammate and Garnett didn't make something special except 2004 when he was that go-to-guy. That's why Garnett should be ranked behind of Nowitzki.


Love the bold. I have posted that before. Really a good way to show the difference between this offense/offense vs defense/defense thing people do on here.

I actually still have KG over Dirk "right now"...but that will change. I think Dirk can be anywhere from 15 to 25 right now on legit lists....although beyond 20 or so and I think people would get into an area of struggling to find legit reasons to rank Dirk behind guys.

I do think Dirk can finish higher though depending on how the rest of his career goes. Mainly, for example, because as a player I just don't think that Dr. J and Moses were any better than Dirk. I think they deserve to be ranked over Dirk right now, but that can change.

What is difficult about any list is that there are some guys I didn't and you didn't see (assuming)...like Pettit, Oscar, West, Hondo...etc. Objectively Dirk belongs in that tier of players.....but without seeing them play its very hard to say.

[blablabla]

Lol he's won one championship. But how many times have the mavs lost as the favorite? At least twice.

As far as last year, I thought I set you straight before, the mavs were in a dogfight against an injured portland team, then swept an unmotivated lakers team that almost lost to an injured hornets team in the first round, then beat a young immature thunder team, and dirk didn't really play at a high level vs the heat.
so did frazier he isn't in your top 20 neither are reed,barry,isiah
wade is top 40

[McBrick]

Lol he's won one championship. But how many times have the mavs lost as the favorite? At least twice.

As far as last year, I thought I set you straight before, the mavs were in a dogfight against an injured portland team, then swept an unmotivated lakers team that almost lost to an injured hornets team in the first round, then beat a young immature thunder team, and dirk didn't really play at a high level vs the heat.



Nice try at discrediting one of the greatest playoff-performances ever. And not that you were nitpicking, you questioned it all :bowdown: :facepalm

[Round Mound]

McHale simply was not the player Dirk is. I think Barkley, Malone, KG, and Dirk can all be debated after Duncan clearly being the best PF ever.

Excuse me but Kevin McHale was a Better Post Player and Defender-Shot Blocker than Dirk. So its not clearly for Dirk...go watch the 1986 Finals.

I'd take Dirk over Barkley, Malone, and KG as a player though. Where Dirk ranks all time is a bit harder.

Both Barkley and somewhat Malone where Better Scorers (See FG% and Shot Attempts taken) Post Players, Rebounders and Passers than Dirk. Malone was a Better Defender than Dirk too

[DMAVS41]

McHale simply was not the player Dirk is. I think Barkley, Malone, KG, and Dirk can all be debated after Duncan clearly being the best PF ever.

Excuse me but Kevin McHale was a Better Post Player and Defender-Shot Blocker than Dirk. So its not clearly for Dirk...go watch the 1986 Finals.

I'd take Dirk over Barkley, Malone, and KG as a player though. Where Dirk ranks all time is a bit harder.

Both Barkley and somewhat Malone where Better Scorers (See FG% and Shot Attempts taken) Post Players, Rebounders and Passers than Dirk. Malone was a Better Defender than Dirk too

Again...McHale is not in Dirk's league as a player. Dirk is a championship first option that can be the best player on a team that wins over 50 11 straight times. McHale could not have done that. He wasn't a championship first option.

Barkley should have been better than Dirk....maybe he was, but its too close to call. But Barkley should have been clearly better....but he wasn't committed to the game the same way. He didn't care as much....he didn't defend. Barkley under achieved for his career and you know it.

Malone was a better defender and rebounder. But Malone had weaknesses in his game that kept him from consistently performing late in close games. Close games in the playoffs are inevitable and there is no doubt that you would want Dirk over Malone...and Barkley for that matter.

And that matters a lot in comparisons that are as close as these. Lets look at how they performed in the playoffs:

Dirk. 26/10/3 58.4% TS
Malone 26/11/3 54% TS (that is cutting of Malone's last 3 years)
Barkley 23/13/4 58.4% TS

Its just not clear cut. They are all so close statistically and each have their strengths and weaknesses. I lean towards Dirk as the best player because his strength is simply the most valuable. If you had to choose between those 3 guys going into a tied playoff game in the 4th qtr.....the answer is Dirk...then Barkley...then a distant Malone.

I will take that over better rebounding (Barkley) and better defense (Malone)

[Johnni Gade]

H

[Round Mound]

TS%...is crap....FG% is more important in game.

Barkley was Better than Dirk at everything but FT and 3-Point Shooting.

Would take PRIME Barkley`s Two-Point SHooting Over Dirk in Heart Beat...Also his Post Game, Rebounding, Passing, Floor Defense, Steals and Blocks..

Barkley > Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

TS%...is crap....FG% is more important in game.

Barkley was Better than Dirk at everything but FT and 3-Point Shooting.

Would take PRIME Barkley`s Two-Point SHooting Over Dirk in Heart Beat...Also his Post Game, Rebounding, Passing, Floor Defense, Steals and Blocks..

Barkley > Dirk.

I prefer the raw numbers as well, but I posted TS because its quicker. Also...the fact that Dirk is such a threat from the three point line and ft line go along way in making him the better clutch player.

Barkley was not a better defender than Dirk. He had the potential to be, but he was lazy and didn't care. Dirk is a far better defender than people give him credit for.

Also....

Barkley played in 83.8% of his regular season games throughout his career
Dirk has played in 95.7% of his regular season games throughout his career

[Round Mound]

I prefer the raw numbers as well, but I posted TS because its quicker. Also...the fact that Dirk is such a threat from the three point line and ft line go along way in making him the better clutch player.

Barkley was not a better defender than Dirk. He had the potential to be, but he was lazy and didn't care. Dirk is a far better defender than people give him credit for.

Also....

Barkley played in 83.8% of his regular season games throughout his career
Dirk has played in 95.7% of his regular season games throughout his career

Did Dirk ever Finish Top 7 in Defesive Rating? :no:

Barkley was a Great Defender when he actually had a Decent Center.

Barkley has the Highest SPG Avg for a PF...He was alot Better Team Defender. As Shot Blocker he was Good and Better than Dirk ages 21-30.

Barkley was a Better Scorer, especially in the Play-Offs where he shot over 51% FG and 55% Two-Point FG on 22-23 PPG taken Lesser Atempts than Dirk.

Rebounding Goes to Barkley

Creating and Assisting Goes to Barkley

Also, was Dirk ever Doubled or Tripled in the Mid Range like Chuck was? Hell :no: !!!

Barkley > Dirk

Dirk is the 2nd Best Offensive PF after Barkley

[DMAVS41]

Did Dirk ever Finish Top 7 in Defesive Rating? :no:

Barkley was a Great Defender when he actually had a Decent Center.

Barkley has the Highest SPG Avg for a PF...He was alot Better Team Defender. As Shot Blocker he was Good and Better than Dirk ages 21-30.

Barkley was a Better Scorer, especially in the Play-Offs where he shot over 51% FG and 55% Two-Point FG on 22-23 PPG taken Lesser Atempts than Dirk.

Rebounding Goes to Barkley

Creating and Assisting Goes to Barkley

Also, was Dirk ever Doubled or Tripled in the Mid Range like Chuck was? Hell :no: !!!

Barkley > Dirk

Dirk is the 2nd Best Offensive PF after Barkley

That would like me saying:

Did Barkley ever win the title?

You simply can't break players down the way you do. Its about impact. And their impacts are extremely close. I'd say Barkley was probably the better regular season player....although he did miss much more time than Dirk....so that matters a little.

Playoffs? I'd take Dirk...although its very close. I know with Dirk that he can lead a team to the title and I know he's committed to winning in a way I'm not sure about Barkley.

[Balla_Status]

Lol he's won one championship. But how many times have the mavs lost as the favorite? At least twice.

As far as last year, I thought I set you straight before, the mavs were in a dogfight against an injured portland team, then swept an unmotivated lakers team that almost lost to an injured hornets team in the first round, then beat a young immature thunder team, and dirk didn't really play at a high level vs the heat.

So...what you're saying is that you thought the Mavs would EASILY win the championship last year?

[StateOfMind12]

That would like me saying:

Did Barkley ever win the title?

You simply can't break players down the way you do. Its about impact. And their impacts are extremely close. I'd say Barkley was probably the better regular season player....although he did miss much more time than Dirk....so that matters a little.

Playoffs? I'd take Dirk...although its very close. I know with Dirk that he can lead a team to the title and I know he's committed to winning in a way I'm not sure about Barkley.
Why would you take Barkley over Dirk for the regular season? That would make no sense.

The reason why Barkley was an effective post-season performer in the first place was because he would always half ass and be out of shape in the regular season. He simply "coasted" through the regular season. You already stated how he missed a lot of time in the regular season and that does matter. Dirk was easily a better regular season player than Barkley was.

Comparing Barkley to Dirk in the regular season is like comparing Shaq to Duncan in the regular season. Dirk being Duncan in this comparison and Barkley being Shaq.

Of course, Dirk vs. Barkley overall is nothing like Shaq vs. Duncan.


I have Dirk over Barkley for a numerous of reasons and it goes beyond talent, production, and accomplishments.

[Micku]

That would like me saying:

Did Barkley ever win the title?

You simply can't break players down the way you do. Its about impact. And their impacts are extremely close. I'd say Barkley was probably the better regular season player....although he did miss much more time than Dirk....so that matters a little.

Playoffs? I'd take Dirk...although its very close. I know with Dirk that he can lead a team to the title and I know he's committed to winning in a way I'm not sure about Barkley.

Different eras.

The 2011 Mavs probably won't beat any of the Bulls teams. They might get knock out by the Jazz or the Rockets with Hakeem. If Dirk started his career in the 80s, same as Barkley, he probably wouldn't win a ring either. But that also depends on what type of talent that he had. But regardless, it was a different era. You can't really compare since the Bulls stopped a lot of teams from winning it all. Barkley and Karl Malone included.

[kenny817]

Different eras.

The 2011 Mavs probably won't beat any of the Bulls teams. They might get knock out by the Jazz or the Rockets with Hakeem. If Dirk started his career in the 80s, same as Barkley, he probably wouldn't win a ring either. But that also depends on what type of talent that he had. But regardless, it was a different era. You can't really compare since the Bulls stopped a lot of teams from winning it all. Barkley and Karl Malone included.


But we are now in the Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan era

Those 3 have won a ring in 10 of the last 13 years...MJ won 6 in 8 years

[Micku]

But we are now in the Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan era

Those 3 have won a ring in 10 of the last 13 years...MJ won 6 in 8 years

Prime Dirk was not in the Bulls era in the 90s. Prime Barkley is not in the Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan era. He was in the 80s and 90s.

It's a fallacy when you say: "Dirk proved to me that he could win one" when you are comparing to Barkley who was in the Jordan era where the Bulls were the best.

Especially considering the they face different teams. They didn't play in the same era. You have to ask the questions:

Could the 2011 Mavs beat the 1993 Bulls? Were the 2011 Mavs even better than the 1993 Suns? Could any Mavs team in the 00s get to the Finals in the 90s?

We don't know. But it's probably unlikely that the Mavs would best the Bulls if they faced them. We don't even know if they beat the Rockets with Hakeem, Sonics with Payton and Kemp, Jazz with Stockton and Malone, Blazers with Drexler, or even the late 90s Lakers.

It's a fallacy when you compare Dirk-Barkley on the rings since they played in different eras and the competition was different.

[iDefend5]

Different eras.

The 2011 Mavs probably won't beat any of the Bulls teams. They might get knock out by the Jazz or the Rockets with Hakeem. If Dirk started his career in the 80s, same as Barkley, he probably wouldn't win a ring either. But that also depends on what type of talent that he had. But regardless, it was a different era. You can't really compare since the Bulls stopped a lot of teams from winning it all. Barkley and Karl Malone included.
Barkley only lost to MJ once in the Finals, than other times? He lost to someone else due to him choking.

[DMAVS41]

Different eras.

The 2011 Mavs probably won't beat any of the Bulls teams. They might get knock out by the Jazz or the Rockets with Hakeem. If Dirk started his career in the 80s, same as Barkley, he probably wouldn't win a ring either. But that also depends on what type of talent that he had. But regardless, it was a different era. You can't really compare since the Bulls stopped a lot of teams from winning it all. Barkley and Karl Malone included.

They didn't lose to MJ every year. Always an excuse for what some people are claiming are two clearly better players than Dirk.

Just don't see it.

[Micku]

They didn't lose to MJ every year. Always an excuse for what some people are claiming are two clearly better players than Dirk.

Just don't see it.

It is true that a Barkley team didn't lose to MJ every year in the finals since they only faced them once. But I don't really see Dirk coming out of the west every year in the 90s either. Obviously since he didn't come out every year in the West in the 00s. Especially with a prime Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Rodman, Kemp, and Mutombo all around with some pretty good teams there. But it depends on the team. Either way, they all lost to the Bulls except for Hakeem who didn't face Jordan Bulls.

I don't think any of the Mavs in 00s would win in the 90s. They might not even come out of the West, but who knows. That's what I mean about different eras. I doubt the Mavs 11 would fair any better than the 1993 Suns against the Bulls. Could they even beat the Spurs with the frontline of David Robinson and Rodman? They probably wouldn't beat Hakeem Rockets or the Jazz. But it's a different era, so can't really compare much.

[Micku]

Barkley only lost to MJ once in the Finals, than other times? He lost to someone else due to him choking.

Dirk was actually considered a choker before his 11 run. The whole 1st seed, while being MVP, losing in the first round was the peak of his choking thing.

My point is that it was a different era. What team of the Mavs do you see winning it all in the 90s? What of the Mavs could come out of the 90s? Could Dirk still perform well with Rodman guarding him? Would Karl Malone or Barkley outperform him? Would Hakeem destroy the Mavs center and Dirk and still take it all in the mid 90s?

Not only were the rules were different, but the playing style was different too. Even if Dirk manage to get to the finals, there is no guarantee that he would win it all. If he isn't losing to the Bulls, and the somehow make it pass Hakeem and the Rockets, he would face the Knicks and a talented Orlando Magic.

It was a different era.

[DMAVS41]

It is true that a Barkley team didn't lose to MJ every year in the finals since they only faced them once. But I don't really see Dirk coming out of the west every year in the 90s either. Obviously since he didn't come out every year in the West in the 00s. Especially with a prime Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Rodman, Kemp, and Mutombo all around with some pretty good teams there. But it depends on the team. Either way, they all lost to the Bulls except for Hakeem who didn't face Jordan Bulls.

I don't think any of the Mavs in 00s would win in the 90s. They might not even come out of the West, but who knows. That's what I mean about different eras. I doubt the Mavs 11 would fair any better than the 1993 Suns against the Bulls. Could they even beat the Spurs with the frontline of David Robinson and Rodman? They probably wouldn't beat Hakeem Rockets or the Jazz. But it's a different era, so can't really compare much.

Exactly...all you can do is compare what they actually did. And that is really it.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Not really, he's just as soft as he always was. Winning an NBA title does help to some extent since people now label him as clutch.

[Odinn]

Not really, he's just as soft as he always was. Winning an NBA title does help to some extent since people now label him as clutch.
:violin: :violin::blah :blah :sleeping

[Unstop]

u cant compare teams from different eras...
Of course they would ve lost against the bulls in the 90s, but the Bulls would ve looked different in our era...with that said, no title run is easy.

Dallas won a championship and everyone should respect this.
in my opinion it was one of the most exciting title runs for years. numbers dont lie. fans all over the world were watching the playoffs...

[rodman91]

Not really, he's just as soft as he always was. Winning an NBA title does help to some extent since people now label him as clutch.

Soft arguments are BS.

[DMAVS41]

Soft arguments are BS.

Most arguments are now at this point.

People don't like having their BS perceptions blown out of the water so they have to rationalize everything.

26/10/3 on one of the best scoring efficiency in playoff history
11 straight 50 win seasons

Those 2 things above combined with a mvp, a title, and finals mvp simply makes for one of the all time great careers no matter how you look at it.

[rodman91]

u cant compare teams from different eras...
Of course they would ve lost against the bulls in the 90s, but the Bulls would ve looked different in our era...with that said, no title run is easy.

Dallas won a championship and everyone should respect this.
in my opinion it was one of the most exciting title runs for years. numbers dont lie. fans all over the world were watching the playoffs...

Muhammad Ali sent this guy a boxing glove with a card saying "You are the greatest" :bowdown:

[Fiba basketball]

Am I the only one on this forum that thinks Dirk is best player on the world ?

[97 bulls]

So...what you're saying is that you thought the Mavs would EASILY win the championship last year?
I knew they would beat portland. Especially with roys situation. After watching how the lakers played against tthe hornets, and basically the whole year, yes I believed they weren't gonna beat the mavs. I believed the mavs were better than the thunder due to age and experience. I didn't think they were gonna beat the heat. And even though they did, dirk wasn't as impressive as a few of you people are making him out to be. He was basically carried for most of the games til the end.

[Teanett]

Am I the only one on this forum that thinks Dirk is best player on the world ?
i'm with you

[rodman91]

Am I the only one on this forum that thinks Dirk is best player on the world ?

You might be.It depends how you consider best though. When nowitzki on fire, nobody can be his equal.

[midatlantic09]

Dirk doesn't do much of anything aside from shoot jumpers. He has no handles, can't rebound, plays no defense, doesn't block shots, has no real post game, and isn't all that good of a passer.

He's a one dimensional player, so no, he's not underrated.

[Odinn]

Dirk doesn't do much of anything aside from shoot jumpers. He has no handles, can't rebound, plays no defense, doesn't block shots, has no real post game, and isn't all that good of a passer.

He's a one dimensional player, so no, he's not underrated.
http://www.protias.com/Pictures/Thread/Not-sure-if-serious.jpg

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

I knew they would beat portland. Especially with roys situation. After watching how the lakers played against tthe hornets, and basically the whole year, yes I believed they weren't gonna beat the mavs. I believed the mavs were better than the thunder due to age and experience. I didn't think they were gonna beat the heat. And even though they did, dirk wasn't as impressive as a few of you people are making him out to be. He was basically carried for most of the games til the end.

This goes beyond revisionist history, but its expected from someone that had his BS perceptions blown out of the water.

I'll say it again.

11 straight 50 win seasons
26/10/3 career playoff averages
MVP
Title
Finals MVP

And those are just the big things. Dirk has been the best elimination game player of this era and one of the three best ever. He's had great durability....playing in 96% of his games. He has the 5th best win percentage of active players and 6th best of this era. Only parker, manu, duncan, shaq, and kobe have higher win percentages. All of whom played with better help and for better coaches.

Dirk is one of the most clutch players ever with a very good argument as the most clutch player of this era.

Dirk has one of the single best and most improbable playoff runs in NBA history.

Dirk is 8th all time in playoff ppg.
Dirk has the 7th best PER in playoff history.

I could go on, but really no point.

Sad when people just can't admit they were wrong about a player and give him his credit.

[IGOTGAME]

Most arguments are now at this point.

People don't like having their BS perceptions blown out of the water so they have to rationalize everything.

26/10/3 on one of the best scoring efficiency in playoff history
11 straight 50 win seasons

Those 2 things above combined with a mvp, a title, and finals mvp simply makes for one of the all time great careers no matter how you look at it.

dirk is underrated. one thing I do question about Dirk is his preparation for this year. He says he has trouble motivating himself once he got to his goal. Was he built to win 5 or 6 titles or would he have gotten complacent. Based on his conditioning and comments Im leaning towards the fact that he easily becomes complacent.

[97 bulls]

This goes beyond revisionist history, but its expected from someone that had his BS perceptions blown out of the water.

I'll say it again.

11 straight 50 win seasons
26/10/3 career playoff averages
MVP
Title
Finals MVP

And those are just the big things. Dirk has been the best elimination game player of this era and one of the three best ever. He's had great durability....playing in 96% of his games. He has the 5th best win percentage of active players and 6th best of this era. Only parker, manu, duncan, shaq, and kobe have higher win percentages. All of whom played with better help and for better coaches.

Dirk is one of the most clutch players ever with a very good argument as the most clutch player of this era.

Dirk has one of the single best and most improbable playoff runs in NBA history.

Dirk is 8th all time in playoff ppg.
Dirk has the 7th best PER in playoff history.

I could go on, but really no point.

Sad when people just can't admit they were wrong about a player and give him his credit.
I believe dirk is a great player. But I stop short at calling his run last year legendary. You sell him short too when you act as if what he did was so shocking. Maybe you don't belive dirk is good enough to lead teams to greatness.

Regardless of what you feel, the mavs championship run wasn't legendary. And there's nothing you've said that changes that. Now allow me to ask you,

did the mavs beat a trailblazer team without their best player in brandon roy?

Did they beat a laker team that didn't have it? Who were a jekly and hyde team throughout the whole season, then had to go the distance against an injury riddled hornets team? That had no business even being in the playoffs? And before you answer imma do you a favor, im setting you up in that the minute you reply that the lakers were the champs and had the better record, imma go back to the year the dirk led 1st seeded mavs lost to the 8th seeded warriors and your assumpttion that the warriors were better than their record indicated. The lakers weren't nearly as good as their record or past history. Phil jackson had all but checked out, and there was turmoil in the locker room. The lakers weren't reasy to defend their title.

Did they beat a young thunder team?

Then in the finals, did dirk have a great series? 23 ppg on 42% shooting. Or did he just hit some big shots? While terry, marion, jose juan, and kidd did the legwork.

[MiseryCityTexas]

he won the championship last year. how is he underrated?

[DMAVS41]

dirk is underrated. one thing I do question about Dirk is his preparation for this year. He says he has trouble motivating himself once he got to his goal. Was he built to win 5 or 6 titles or would he have gotten complacent. Based on his conditioning and comments Im leaning towards the fact that he easily becomes complacent.

I think it all depends on circumstances. I think Dirk had trouble motivating himself for a number of reasons:

1. He tried his entire career to win the title. Took a long long time. I highly doubt he would have gotten complacent winning early on. Hell, I don't think he's complacent right now.

2. The lockout. Nobody when or if there were going to be games.

3. The Mavs overhauled the defending championship roster. That matters.

I think you are reading way too much into winning a title and its impact on Dirk. He's getting older and he will start to decline very soon....but even with all that....he's playing fantastic ball this month overall.

I just could never see Dirk winning in 06 and then mailing it in the rest of his prime or something.

I think people have chosen to ignore the actual circumstances of this year. Lockout, team overhaul, hurt, Eurobaskets...etc.

And again...even with all that....Dirk is once again rounding into form and leading the Mavs to one of the best records in the conference.

[DMAVS41]

I believe dirk is a great player. But I stop short at calling his run last year legendary. You sell him short too when you act as if what he did was so shocking. Maybe you don't belive dirk is good enough to lead teams to greatness.

Regardless of what you feel, the mavs championship run wasn't legendary. And there's nothing you've said that changes that. Now allow me to ask you,

did the mavs beat a trailblazer team without their best player in brandon roy?

Did they beat a laker team that didn't have it? Who were a jekly and hyde team throughout the whole season, then had to go the distance against an injury riddled hornets team? That had no business even being in the playoffs? And before you answer imma do you a favor, im setting you up in that the minute you reply that the lakers were the champs and had the better record, imma go back to the year the dirk led 1st seeded mavs lost to the 8th seeded warriors and your assumpttion that the warriors were better than their record indicated. The lakers weren't nearly as good as their record or past history. Phil jackson had all but checked out, and there was turmoil in the locker room. The lakers weren't reasy to defend their title.

Did they beat a young thunder team?

Then in the finals, did dirk have a great series? 23 ppg on 42% shooting. Or did he just hit some big shots? While terry, marion, jose juan, and kidd did the legwork.

Wasn't legendary?

No other all star or all nba player. Huge underdogs in two series without HCA. Beat a team in the finals people were calling so good its unfair.

Dirk was amazing. The most clutch playoff run of this era and up there in terms of clutchness all time with the likes of Larry and MJ.

Dirk had one of the best playoff games ever with his 48 against the Thunder on the best efficiency ever.

I'll ask you the same question:

Please name a team with a harder road to the title. There won't be many.

And stop acting like the Mavs didn't have anything to do with those teams not playing well. You can't separate the teams like they don't impact each other.

The Heat tore through the East and were picked by literally everyone. "So good its unfair"...heard that time and time again. 2 of the 5 best players in the game.

Look who the Mavs went through:

Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, Westbrook, Pau, Kobe, Aldridge.....

What is that? 8 of the 25 best players in the league? 4 of the top 7 players?

[creepingdeath]

I believe dirk is a great player. But I stop short at calling his run last year legendary. You sell him short too when you act as if what he did was so shocking. Maybe you don't belive dirk is good enough to lead teams to greatness.

Regardless of what you feel, the mavs championship run wasn't legendary. And there's nothing you've said that changes that. Now allow me to ask you,

did the mavs beat a trailblazer team without their best player in brandon roy?

Did they beat a laker team that didn't have it? Who were a jekly and hyde team throughout the whole season, then had to go the distance against an injury riddled hornets team? That had no business even being in the playoffs? And before you answer imma do you a favor, im setting you up in that the minute you reply that the lakers were the champs and had the better record, imma go back to the year the dirk led 1st seeded mavs lost to the 8th seeded warriors and your assumpttion that the warriors were better than their record indicated. The lakers weren't nearly as good as their record or past history. Phil jackson had all but checked out, and there was turmoil in the locker room. The lakers weren't reasy to defend their title.

Did they beat a young thunder team?

Then in the finals, did dirk have a great series? 23 ppg on 42% shooting. Or did he just hit some big shots? While terry, marion, jose juan, and kidd did the legwork.

So much BS.
http://i.minus.com/i5w1qtKYHRZa1.gif

[97 bulls]

Wasn't legendary?

No other all star or all nba player. Huge underdogs in two series without HCA. Beat a team in the finals people were calling so good its unfair.

Dirk was amazing. The most clutch playoff run of this era and up there in terms of clutchness all time with the likes of Larry and MJ.

Dirk had one of the best playoff games ever with his 48 against the Thunder on the best efficiency ever.

I'll ask you the same question:

Please name a team with a harder road to the title. There won't be many.

And stop acting like the Mavs didn't have anything to do with those teams not playing well. You can't separate the teams like they don't impact each other.

The Heat tore through the East and were picked by literally everyone. "So good its unfair"...heard that time and time again. 2 of the 5 best players in the game.

Look who the Mavs went through:

Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, Westbrook, Pau, Kobe, Aldridge.....

What is that? 8 of the 25 best players in the league? 4 of the top 7 players?
What was so hard about their run that makes it legendary? Or better yet what was so out of the norm? To be honest, no championship run is easy. And the mavs run was no different. They obviously beat some formidable teams. But what wa so legendary? The mavs as a whole were extremely hot in that lakers series you love to tout. And again the lakers barely got passed the hornets. Now if they would've swept the hornets in dominant fashion then walked into the dallas series comming off that sweep you might have a valid point. But that wasn't the case.

And when they beat miami, dirk was subpar from an alltime great standpoint.

Which brings me back to my questions which you conveniently ignored. Let's simplify it. Were the lakers as good when they faced dallas as a typical 2 time champ?

Did dirk have a sub par championship shooting 43% and avg 23 pts?

[creepingdeath]

Did dirk have a sub par championship shooting 43% and avg 23 pts?
No. He averaged 26ppg. Your argument is invalid, moron.

[DMAVS41]

What was so hard about their run that makes it legendary? Or better yet what was so out of the norm? To be honest, no championship run is easy. And the mavs run was no different. They obviously beat some formidable teams. But what wa so legendary? The mavs as a whole were extremely hot in that lakers series you love to tout. And again the lakers barely got passed the hornets. Now if they would've swept the hornets in dominant fashion then walked into the dallas series comming off that sweep you might have a valid point. But that wasn't the case.

And when they beat miami, dirk was subpar from an alltime great standpoint.

Which brings me back to my questions which you conveniently ignored. Let's simplify it. Were the lakers as good when they faced dallas as a typical 2 time champ?

Did dirk have a sub par championship shooting 43% and avg 23 pts?


How would we ever know what the Lakers were? The Mavs destroyed them in 4 after the Lakers crumbled in crunch time of the first 3 games. Were they typical? Who knows....did the Mavs not have anything to do with making them like bad? Remember when the Celtics went to 7 in the first 2 round in 08....LOL

What about Miami? Were they just not that good? I guess it had nothing to do with the Mavs.

Its so easy to just come up with all these BS excuses why the Mavs won and why Dirk wasn't legendary....

What was legendary about Dirk? Did you watch the 4th qtrs? Did you watch his 48 point game? Did you watch him countless huge plays and start comebacks each series?

Again....name a tougher road to the title that you can remember recently. I'll be waiting for that very short list.

[Unstop]

i think dirk was good in the finals...
his last game was pretty bad. i cant denie that , but at least he showed up in the fourth quarter like he always did.

and even if he needs no excuses...he was injured (finger...ok whateva) and ill,watch wade and lebron making fun about him^^

out of the norm? another franchise is going to win the finals with really tough teams on their way and in the end against the evil MIAMI HEAT! lol;) really entertaining.
come on...this was an entertaining playoff year, wasnt it? cant remember a better playoff season in the last couple years...pretty boring, watchin same teams over and over again.
btw. thunder had a breakout year,memphis showed up. i was surprised by some results.

and its not all about the lakers. dallas tried to win every single game against the "champs", they knew if they would loose a game, they could ve lost their momentum. psychological aspect....ask lebron.

anyway, this one was one of the most entertaining playoff runs ive watched.
just watch OKC vs Dal...some really big shots from dirk, sometimes i couldnt believe it.