Why does Old Kobe struggle so much against Shawn Marion

[juju151111]

He been making Kobe his bitch since last year.

[Jotaro Durant]

marion one of the most underrated players ever........real talk. he beat up on durant too last year and lebron.....in his prime BEFORE nash he was a beast on both ends.....

[Noob Saibot]

Marion is

1) physically tough
2) above average footwork
3) very long arms

perfect formula for a man to man defender

[Rowe]

Marion is

1) physically tough
2) above average footwork
3) very long arms

perfect formula for a man to man defender
This.

Also this is their 62nd matchup.

Marion has to know what hes getting to by now.:cheers:

[Nevaeh]

Why does Old Kobe struggle so much against Shawn Marion

Because Kobe has Fiiiiiiiiiivvvvveeeeee Riiiinnnnnggggggggs. :rolleyes:

[DMV2]

Matrix owns Kobe and LeBron defensively but he can't contain Lin whatsoever. :lol

[Doctor Rivers]

Kobe Kobe Kobe All I Dream About Is Kobe!!

:rolleyes:

[White Mamba]

last year has nothing to do with tonight, last year kobe was so not kobe in the playoff, he wasn't even close to being healthy, it was so bad he couldn't even score a jumpshot over jason kidd, let alone pass by him.

tonight was the 3th game in 4th nights for a 33 year old sg in his 16th season, he was due for a off night and marion got a lot of help by his teemates.

kobe made two great pass in the 4th to give la 93-86 lead, and marion wasn't on him when he missed 4 free throws! he was just tired - 3 games in 4 nights.

[Rhyen]

last year has nothing to do with tonight, last year kobe was so not kobe in the playoff, he wasn't even close to being healthy, it was so bad he couldn't even score a jumpshot over jason kidd, let alone pass by him.

tonight was the 3th game in 4th nights for a 33 year old sg in his 16th season, he was due for a off night and marion got a lot of help by his teemates.

kobe made two great pass in the 4th to give la 93-86 lead, and marion wasn't on him when he missed 4 free throws! he was just tired - 3 games in 4 nights.

1th, 2th, 3th

[ILLsmak]

I think Marion is smarter than people think. That play in the finals where he took LeBron to the rack and was like BITCH. That probably had more of an effect on him than the D did.

-Smak

[RonySeikalyFTL]

Because Kobe has Fiiiiiiiiiivvvvveeeeee Riiiinnnnnggggggggs. :rolleyes:

And Robert Horry has Seeeevvvvveeeen Riiiinnnnngggggggs.

This is fun.

[Extempo]

Did Marion guard Lebron in the Finals? That would explain Lebron's scrub-like performance.

I saw Dallas doubling Kobe almost every time he got the ball, it wasn't Marion alone...it was their team defense that bothered him. I guess the Mavs theory was that they would focus on containing Kobe and let others try to beat them. They forgot about the two 7 footers. I'm glad because it worked for us...Kobe made the right plays in the end, he only took like 3 shots in the entire 4th quarter but rather got the ball to Gasol/Bynum for better looks (especially in the last minutes)...dumb Mavs. Second loss to us because they were so scared of Kobe. The first one was on a Fisher gamewinner, leaving him wide open to double Kobe.

[kennethgriffin]

And Robert Horry has Seeeevvvvveeeen Riiiinnnnngggggggs.

This is fun.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/gtrwgtr.png

[Disaprine]

:rolleyes:
:lol

[HurricaneKid]

Did Marion guard Lebron in the Finals? That would explain Lebron's scrub-like performance.

I saw Dallas doubling Kobe almost every time he got the ball, it wasn't Marion alone...it was their team defense that bothered him. I guess the Mavs theory was that they would focus on containing Kobe and let others try to beat them. They forgot about the two 7 footers. I'm glad because it worked for us...Kobe made the right plays in the end, he only took like 3 shots in the entire 4th quarter but rather got the ball to Gasol/Bynum for better looks (especially in the last minutes)...dumb Mavs. Second loss to us because they were so scared of Kobe. The first one was on a Fisher gamewinner, leaving him wide open to double Kobe.

Are you for real? Kobe goes 4/15 with 7 TOs and he was the reason they won? Because he had ONE 4th qtr Asst and four for the game? I think you are actually counting his misses that were put back by Bynum and Pau.

[Disaprine]

because of shawn's great defense. :applause: props to him

[SwooshReturns]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/gtrwgtr.png
So ...

Kobe = 3 1/2 Rings
Pippen = 3 Rings
Gasol = 1 Ring

This actually makes sense

[Pursuer]

I don't think stopping scorers like Kobe, Lebron, Durant is one man's achievement. Give credit to Dallas defense, they were really limiting Kobe on those PnR's last night.

[RonySeikalyFTL]

So ...

Kobe = 3 1/2 Rings
Pippen = 3 Rings
Gasol = 1 Ring

This actually makes sense

I could agree with that. I might have to subtract a ring from Kobe though for single-handedly losing the 2004 finals due to his chucking. He took 113 shots that series to Shaq's 84, despite the fact that Shaq shot 63% from the field and Kobe shot 38%. That was the most blatant display of a player being selfish and costing his team a championship that I have ever seen.

People want to blame Lebron for the Heat losing last year, and while he was strangely absent in the 4th quarters at least he didn't shoot them out of the series.

[SwooshReturns]

People want to blame Lebron for the Heat losing last year, and while he was strangely absent in the 4th quarters at least he didn't shoot them out of the series.
You can't subtract rings, kiddo ... what is won, is won.

No, James didn't play aggressive at all, 4th quarter or not and played well below even his averages ... thus being the primary reason the team lost.

So in actuality, LeBron's worse.

The Lakers would've been fine if Malone wasn't injured, regardless if Kobe kept shooting.

[G-Funk]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/gtrwgtr.png
Haha u owned him

[pegasus]

I could agree with that. I might have to subtract a ring from Kobe though for single-handedly losing the 2004 finals due to his chucking. He took 113 shots that series to Shaq's 84, despite the fact that Shaq shot 63% from the field and Kobe shot 38%. That was the most blatant display of a player being selfish and costing his team a championship that I have ever seen.

People want to blame Lebron for the Heat losing last year, and while he was strangely absent in the 4th quarters at least he didn't shoot them out of the series.

Subtract a ring? Then put Lebron at -2:lol

In certain cases, not shooting is even worse than shooting too much, and the last year's finals was a prime example. Lebron couldn't even play like a decent 4th option, and that's why they lost. All he needed to do is play more aggressive without worrying about his numbers and who might win the FMVP, but that's like asking him to change who he is and what he represents.

[get these NETS]

difference between matrix and other good athletic defenders when it comes to kobe



marion RARELY if EVEr bails kobe out

kobe STILL pump fakes, head fakes, jab steps his way out of bad spots and situations because the defender jumps..

marion rarely does that....kobe is forced to put up a bad shot, or pass with 2 seconds on the shot clock

[RonySeikalyFTL]

You can't subtract rings, kiddo ... what is won, is won.

No, James didn't play aggressive at all, 4th quarter or not and played well below even his averages ... thus being the primary reason the team lost.

So in actuality, LeBron's worse.

The Lakers would've been fine if Malone wasn't injured, regardless if Kobe kept shooting.

Both played below their averages. The difference, Lebron didn't keep Wade from playing his best by chucking. Kobe did that to Shaq. Shaq should have had a dominant series considering he was shooting 63% from the field, but the guy couldn't get enough shots because Kobe was averaged more FGA than PPG. As a result, Shaq only ended up averaging 26 ppg.

It's pretty simple: would you rather have a player that plays bad but doesn't shoot that much or a guy that plays bad and is a ball-hog at the same time?

[Crown&Coke]

Marion is a G on defense. Still super quick laterally, very unorthodox style imo, he keeps his feet spread wide apart and is always moving his feet like a prize fighter circling the ring. long enough to contest without getting out of position

best attribute of all, he's a gamer. he comes to work with the intention of locking you down. Not many players have the confidence, ability, and desire to get it done on defense.

only thing is, last year he was able to post and score in the playoffs, even against guys his size. havent seen any of that so far this year (but I barely saw it in the reg season last year too)

[RonySeikalyFTL]

Subtract a ring? Then put Lebron at -2:lol

In certain cases, not shooting is even worse than shooting too much, and the last year's finals was a prime example. Lebron couldn't even play like a decent 4th option, and that's why they lost. All he needed to do is play more aggressive without worrying about his numbers and who might win the FMVP, but that's like asking him to change who he is and what he represents.

Uh oh here comes the retarded Kobe troll with his bullsh*t hyperbole.

"Couldn't even play like a decent 4th option?" Lol he averaged 17.8 ppg on 48% shooting. Maybe your perception of what a "decent 4th option" is might be a little skewed from watching all of Kobe's stacked championship teams, but those numbers don't detract from a team like Kobe's chucking did in the '04 finals.

[pegasus]

Uh oh here comes the retarded Kobe troll with his bullsh*t hyperbole.

"Couldn't even play like a decent 4th option?" Lol he averaged 17.8 ppg on 48% shooting. Maybe your perception of what a "decent 4th option" is might be a little skewed from watching all of Kobe's stacked championship teams, but those numbers don't detract from a team like Kobe's chucking did in the '04 finals.

I guess I should have worded it as "He couldn't even play like a decent fourth option in the fourth quarters", you know, where the games are decided, especially knowing how most of the games in that series went to the wire.

Now try and dispute that, you deep shit. Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, and probably even Haslem played better than him when it mattered the most.

And post me the stats from Kobe's championship runs where their third option, let alone the fourth option, had averaged more than 13.40, which was by Odom in 2009.

[Droid101]

Kobe dropped the ball a few times without Marion even touching it. Marion picked up the ball afterwards.

Off night for Kobe. Marion is a great defender, but the only person who shuts down Kobe is Kobe (and sometimes double and triple teams).

[rodman91]

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/1669/jordanmarion.png

:bowdown:

[Nevaeh]

I have a fetish for posters with names spelled backwards. Please pray for me :(

:rolleyes:

[jlip]

Whatever was going on between Lebron's ears had a far greater defensive impact on Lebron in the Finals than anything Marion did.

[lefthook00]

Kind of sad to see. I remember when Kobe used to absolutely abuse a younger, faster, but still a vet Marion in the playoffs 4-5 years ago. 06 and 07 playoffs are pretty much where Kobe's hatred of the Suns comes from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70InWc-oA18

[Derivative]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/gtrwgtr.png

kobe was not a superstar during 00-02 championship, he was more like pippen to shaq

[SlayerEnraged]

Kind of sad to see. I remember when Kobe used to absolutely abuse a younger, faster, but still a vet Marion in the playoffs 4-5 years ago. 06 and 07 playoffs are pretty much where Kobe's hatred of the Suns comes from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70InWc-oA18

That's cause the suns suck at defense. Marion is a decent defender, however it's really the mavs that make him look good. That is especially true with Pierce, Ray Allen and Kg's celtics. Kobe used to crap on them all the time but now because they're on the same team instead of seperate teams and on a good defensive team, Kobe usually doesn't explode vs. them.

[SlayerEnraged]

kobe was not a superstar during 00-02 championship, he was more like pippen to shaq

He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02. Kobe was better in the WCF playoffs where there were real defenders to play Shaq. In 01 Shaq got to go up against old and to skinny for him Dikembe Mutumbo, and in 02 he went up against 6 '9 Kenyon Martin. Lakers woulda been morons to not go to shaq more than Kobe in those series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

kobe was not a superstar during 00-02 championship, he was more like pippen to shaq
'00 you can say he wasn't really a "superstar" yet, but '01 & '02? :oldlol:

'01 Playoffs
vs Blazers - 25/4/8/48%
vs Kings - 35/9/4/48%
vs Spurs - 33/7/7/51%
vs Sixers - 25/8/6/42%

'02 Playoffs
vs Blazers - 26/6/5/35%
vs Spurs - 26/5/5/45%
vs Kings - 27/6/4/42%
vs Nets - 27/6/5/51%

Game 7s
'00 WCF - 25/11/7/47%, 4 blk
'02 WCF - 30/10/7/39%

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02.

lol :oldlol:

[pauk]

Matrix owns Kobe and LeBron defensively but he can't contain Lin whatsoever. :lol

Lebron had no problem whatsoever against him..... last time he torched the Mavs... dropping 37-10-6 @ 58% FG... on the contrary, Lebron shut down Marion defensively that game....

Not even in the Finals did he have trouble... he shot 48% fg, took only like 10-14 shots that series... he was just facilitating, leading everybody in assists.... Heat were doing perfectly fine that way, the only problem Lebron/Heat had were closing out games in the clutch.... thats the only reason they lost...

If that series was replayed Lebron would absolutely go ham on Mavs....

[SlayerEnraged]

lol :oldlol:

Kobe dominated Shaq vs the 01 Spurs and WCF in general. ALl Shaq got was the ball more. :rolleyes: 21-22 Kobe better than 27-29 year old shaq. 27-29=someones absolute peak. No question who was better better ever or even those years.

[pauk]

If Pippen & Gasol were only "stars" in those championship runs... then Kobe was that to alongside Shaq....

[Heavincent]

If Pippen & Gasol were only "stars" in those championship runs... then Kobe was that to alongside Shaq....

Uh no. Kobe was far better in 01 and 02 than Gasol ever was.

[Deuce Bigalow]

If Pippen & Gasol were only "stars" in those championship runs... then Kobe was that to alongside Shaq....
Did Gasol or Pippen average 29-7-6 or 27-6-5 like Kobe did in '01&'02?

[Legends66NBA7]

He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02. Kobe was better in the WCF playoffs where there were real defenders to play Shaq. In 01 Shaq got to go up against old and to skinny for him Dikembe Mutumbo, and in 02 he went up against 6 '9 Kenyon Martin. Lakers woulda been morons to not go to shaq more than Kobe in those series.

No, he wasn't easily as good.

He came into his own as a superstar, but was still a notch or 2 below Shaq as a total player.

Plus, Shaq was much more consistent in all his runs than Kobe was. Doesn't take anything away from what Kobe did, but Shaq just dominated more.

[MJ23forever]

he was more like pippen to shaq

kobe was 'magic' to shaq's 'kareem'

[pegasus]

Lebron had no problem whatsoever against him..... last time he torched the Mavs... dropping 37-10-6 @ 58% FG... on the contrary, Lebron shut down Marion defensively that game....

Not even in the Finals did he have trouble... he shot 48% fg, took only like 10-14 shots that series... he was just facilitating, leading everybody in assists.... Heat were doing perfectly fine that way, the only problem Lebron/Heat had were closing out games in the clutch.... thats the only reason they lost...

If that series was replayed Lebron would absolutely go ham on Mavs....
:facepalm

I'm used to you trying to rewrite history, but the finals were only 8 fuc*king months ago. Stop with that "he was facilitating BS". He was getting raped on both ends of the floor, that's what he was doing.

[tpols]

Uh no. Kobe was far better in 01 and 02 than Gasol ever was.
Yup.. and so was Pippen on the Bulls.. so is Wade if the Heat win the chip. Gasol was/is a very good player, but he was never a superstar like those guys.

Anyone besides prime Jordan would have been 'second option' to Shaq. There's really no shame in it.

[MJ23forever]

He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02.

kobe was close to shaq's equal only in the 2001 playoffs but other than that shaq was clearly superior. that doesn't take anything from kobe though because he he was still a full fledged superstar in 2002 despite the detractors that try to downplay him as a disposable side-kick.

[Heavincent]

Lebron was just standing around doing nothing and playing hot potato with the ball.


Fixed. lol at you trying to defend the most pathetic display by a superstar in Finals history :lol

[hitmanyr2k]

[B]He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02. Kobe was better in the WCF playoffs where there were real defenders to play Shaq.
In 01 Shaq got to go up against old and to skinny for him Dikembe Mutumbo, and in 02 he went up against 6 '9 Kenyon Martin. Lakers woulda been morons to not go to shaq more than Kobe in those series.

It wasn't just Shaq who had weak competition. Kobe rarely had to face any quality all-star competition at his position either. All the elite swingmen T-Mac, Vince, Iverson, Pierce, Ray Allen were out east and had to battle it out amongst themselves. Meanwhile Kobe got to go up against 6'3 Antonio Daniels and 6'3 37 year old Terry Porter in the 2001 WCF with Shaq taking a lot of the defensive attention. The Kings had no one at SG to make Kobe work on both ends either. Doug Christie was garbage. So it goes both ways.

[rodman91]

He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s319/datupacker/temp-320-76871407.gif

[hitmanyr2k]

Lebron had no problem whatsoever against him..... last time he torched the Mavs... dropping 37-10-6 @ 58% FG... on the contrary, Lebron shut down Marion defensively that game....

Not even in the Finals did he have trouble... he shot 48% fg, took only like 10-14 shots that series... he was just facilitating, leading everybody in assists.... Heat were doing perfectly fine that way, the only problem Lebron/Heat had were closing out games in the clutch.... thats the only reason they lost...

If that series was replayed Lebron would absolutely go ham on Mavs....

Give it up. Lebron got skull-f***ed against the Mavs. I'm sure Lebron has no problem dropping big numbers against the Mavs in the regular season but the playoffs, the Finals in particular are another beast entirely that Lebron hasn't shown he can deal with yet. If Marion blatantly called any other superstar a bitch to their face he would probably ignite that player. Lebron wilted instead.

[rodman91]

Eric Snow pretty much stopped Kobe in 2001 and yet you dare to say he was Shaq's equal. Kobe was 3rd best player in those finals.

His performance got away because of Shaq's amazing performance..otherwise it wouldn't much better than Lebron's with a lost.

[rodman91]

He was easily as good as Shaq in 01 and 02.

http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/6325/aivskobe.png

:facepalm

[chazzy]

His performance got away because of Shaq's amazing performance..otherwise it wouldn't much better than Lebron's with a lost.
Not even close

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/6325/aivskobe.png

:facepalm
:facepalm
A first half of one game? lol

Kobe was not bad - 25/8/6/42%

Before that series Kobe averaged
35/9/4/47% in 2nd Round
33/7/7/51% in WCF

What were the stats in the 2nd half?

[rodman91]

Not even close

24.6 PPG/7.8 RPG/5.8 APG (41%)

22.0 PPG/7.0 RPG/6.8 APG (35%)

pretty close, especially if you count defense was focusing on Shaq, not Kobe.

[rodman91]

:facepalm
A first half of one game? lol

1st off Iverson shot 35% for the series
Kobe was not bad - 25/8/5/41%, the 2nd best player in the series

Before that series Kobe averaged
35/9/4/47% in 2nd Round
33/7/7/51% in WCF

What were the stats in the 2nd half?

10 points in 2nd half :roll:

2nd best player in series? Iverson had 48 point game and a win while Kobe had 15 points. Iverson had 35.6 ppg series while kobe had 24.6 ppg.

Kobe was 3rd best player in series.

He wasn't even main focus of Sixers.Snow stopped Kobe as you can see from the stats you have posted.

[Deuce Bigalow]

10 points in 2nd half :roll:

2nd best player in series? Iverson had 48 point game and a win while Kobe had 15 points. Iverson had 35.6 ppg series while kobe had 24.6 ppg.

Kobe was 3rd best player in series.

He wasn't even main focus of Sixers.Snow stopped Kobe as you can see from the stats you have posted.
Sure Iverson outplayed Kobe in game 1, but lets look at the other 4 games

Game 2
Kobe - 31/8/6 on 23 shots
Iverson - 23/4/3 on 29 shots

Game 3
Kobe - 32/6/3 on 30 shots
Iverson -35/12/4 on 30 shots

Game 4
Kobe - 19/10/9 on 13 shots
Iverson - 35/4/4 on 30 shots

Game 5
Kobe - 26/12/6 on 18 shots
Iverson - 37/3/2 on 32 shots

Iverson for the series averaged 35.6 PPG on 32.2 FGA :lol

[rodman91]

Sure Iverson outplayed Kobe in game 1, but lets look at the other 4 games

Game 2
Kobe - 31/8/6 on 23 shots
Iverson - 23/4/3 on 29 shots

Game 3
Kobe - 32/6/3 on 30 shots
Iverson -35/12/4 on 30 shots

Game 4
Kobe - 19/10/9 on 13 shots
Iverson - 35/4/4 on 30 shots

Game 5
Kobe - 26/12/6 on 18 shots
Iverson - 37/3/2 on 32 shots

Iverson for the series averaged 35.6 PPG on 32.2 FGA :lol

Kobe was taking less shot with almost same FG% while not much defensive pressure compared to Iverson. That doesn't make it better.

Iverson 41% as only offensive weapon more shots
Kobe 41.5 next to shaq, much more open looks, less shots

It's all on youtube anyway.

[ThaRegul8r]

Maybe he's just a good defender.

Novel concept, I know.

[G-Funk]

:facepalm
A first half of one game? lol

Kobe was not bad - 25/8/6/42%

Before that series Kobe averaged
35/9/4/47% in 2nd Round
33/7/7/51% in WCF

What were the stats in the 2nd half?
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[PP34Deuce]

That's cause the suns suck at defense. Marion is a decent defender, however it's really the mavs that make him look good. That is especially true with Pierce, Ray Allen and Kg's celtics. Kobe used to crap on them all the time but now because they're on the same team instead of seperate teams and on a good defensive team, Kobe usually doesn't explode vs. them.

Kobe has always struggled more likely with lengthy wing players.

Paul Pierce in 2008 defended Kobe on many close possessions and would not fall for pump fakes and his wingspan bothered Kobe.

Marions athletiscm is still above average because he was such a freak in his early years. He's def aged very good.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe dominated Shaq vs the 01 Spurs

Yeah, you might want to check the numbers again. It was like 33/7/7/51% FG for Kobe versus 28/13/3 blk/55% FG for Shaq. And unlike Kobe, Shaq did this against constant double/triple teams and two of the best defenders in history in Duncan and Robinson. Kobe did it against 62 year old Terry Porter, with Shaq preventing them from doubling him or focusing on him. At best for Kobe it was even. lol @ saying that he dominated Shaq" vs. the Spurs in '01. :oldlol: