Do you think men and women behave differently?

[Nick Young]

In my Visual Media and Communication class, the professor was talking about feminism, and this idea they have that men and women are no different from eachother other than biological.


Then some dumb hippy girl said "what exactly makes one a male of female? There are no difference between the genders other than what's on the outside"

The professor then went into a stupid ass discussion with her, agreeing and supporting her retarded views.

Then when I had the gall to suggest that women and men behave differently, and are attracted to different things, due to how men and women evolved as well as having different hormone levels, the professor just shot me down and said I can't say what men and women want and I can't generalize, and she refused to have this conversation based on her personal views, and was getting visibly heated and angry.

But isnt it basically a lie to say that men and women behave the same?

Also women and men are different on the inside as well.
Men have more gray matter
Women have more white matter
Women have more white bloodcells so they heal from things faster
more pain receptors
Women have a larger section in their brain that deals with interpreting language then men do.
Their hearts beat faster then males, even when asleep.
Women have A GODDAMN WOMB AND PRODUCE EGGS, men don't
Males are much stronger than women physically.
Women have much higher estrogen levels than males who have higher testosterone.

Testosterone has been tested in rats and other creatures to increase drive and aggression.

There are many many other things. So science basically confirms that men and women are both extremely different biologically AND behaviorally due to IN MY OPINION hormonal differences.

Like my professor was implying, is it dark ages misogyny to believe that men and women act differently from eachother?

Or do you believe that it all has to due with the environment the child is raised in?

[miller-time]

In my Visual Media and Communication class, the professor was talking about feminism, and this idea they have that men and women are no different from eachother other than biological.

that doesn't make sense. it is like saying that lobsters and humans aren't different to each other than biologically. it is the biological differences that make us different in all cases.

males have a y chromosome and women don't. that means men have 95,000,000 less base pairs than women and (i'm guessing here) 58,000,000 different base pairs. i'm sure that would account for pretty much all of the differences. yes some social differences occur because of our patriarchal society. but most of it is probably genetic.

[ILLsmak]

Men and women are very similar. There is only one difference: Men have the dick so they are dominant. In every situation with a man, a woman is submissive. She might pretend to be dominant, but in reality the man is.

Women have learned to turn their submissiveness into a manipulation tactic.

Men have learned to use their strength to get what they want.

-Smak

[Thorpesaurous]

Truthfully, to hold the position that there is a single cause for any effect on this planet is pretty damned narrowminded. And more often than not, the person pressing that single cause is either incredibly agenda driven, or has been brainwashed by said agenda.

I would hold miller-time's theory that it's a great deal genetic, with a boost from who our society traditional holds female status.


There was an excellent article yesterday on Grantland about Jeremy Lin's cultural significance that touched on societal expectations that's well worth a read.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Practically the same except for the way they see everything, interpret everything, how they are motivated, their long term thinking, short term thinking, and approach to everything.

[Hazard]

Why don't you just drop that dumbass class?

[-p.tiddy-]

Do you think men and women behave differently?

:oldlol:

anyone that doesn't see a difference in behavior hasn't been around too many females

[RaininTwos]

What school do you go to serg?

[LeFraud James]

:oldlol:

anyone that doesn't see a difference in behavior hasn't been around too many females

My thoughts exactly.

[QUIZZLE]

Testosterone and Estrogen make this thread a waste of time.

Love,

Testosterone and Estrogen

[Scholar]

A huge difference between men & women is that women have titties. And I love titties.

[LeFraud James]

A huge difference between men & women is that women have titties. And I love titties.

Man boobs? :confusedshrug:

[Nanners]

she doesnt think there is a difference between the behavior of men and women, hit that bitch across the face with a biology textbook.


In reality, if the supposed conversation really did take place (i have my doubts), I highly doubt it was as simplistic and black and white as our friend sergio portrays it. Like all his arguments, he oversimplifies and is only capable of acknowledging one side or the other, in this case, are men and women identical or are they different? I am guessing the discussion had too much depth for sergio to really understand what was being talked about, cause a real college prof would have an actual response for a high school level observation like "durr men have balls and women have eggs"


heres the biggest irony though. if you are gonna use science to prove the differences between men and women, you cant just turn around dismiss the other aspects of science like climate change, evolution, etc.

[LA_Showtime]

She was referring to gender, while most of the examples you gave are referring to sex.

*Actually, every example you gave refers to sex. You're an idiot.

[DeuceWallaces]

Your proffesors sound like retards.

That's because he makes up their opinions so he can then make up his tough guy responses to act cool on an internet message board.

[RidonKs]

In reality, if the supposed conversation really did take place (i have my doubts), I highly doubt it was as simplistic and black and white as our friend sergio portrays it. Like all his arguments, he oversimplifies and is only capable of acknowledging one side or the other, in this case, are men and women identical or are they different? I am guessing the discussion had too much depth for sergio to really understand what was being talked about, cause a real college prof would have an actual response for a high school level observation like "durr men have balls and women have eggs"
:lol bingo


of course there are differences. i think the major point of contention is if those differences should be in any way meaningful with regard to how we treat one another; socially with our peers and co-workers, politically with our laws and regulations, institutionally in top-down decision-making and management.

those are the interesting questions. not "do men and women behave differently", which is just flat out silly. like, look outside and you have your answer.

[LA_Showtime]

I do agree with you on one thing, Nick. Feminists are ****ing annoying. Luckily there are dumb bitches out there who set feminism back with their stupidity.

[LJJ]

Many professors like that out there sadly.
It just shows they have an incredibly shallow sense of self importance and a severely flawed character. This isn't every professor, but far too many of them.

[-p.tiddy-]

Practically the same except for the way they see everything, interpret everything, how they are motivated, their long term thinking, short term thinking, and approach to everything.
:oldlol:

[Scholar]

That's because he makes up their opinions so he can then make up his tough guy responses to act cool on an internet message board.

I lol'd really hard.

[Psileas]

:facepalm Thank God the Plague of feminism hasn't managed to ravage the entire planet, but it will take a lot longer till the infested countries wipe it out, too.

Yeah, men and women are so completely similar I can't make out the difference any more... As everyone knows, 50% of the times, it's the female that asks the male out, 50% of the times the female pays his dinner, 50% of members of sports' boards like this are females, 50% of members of boards about cooking are males, 50% of discussions about cars are initiated by females, 50% of discussions about make-up tips are initiated by males, etc.

Political correctness has become so lame and wrong it's not funny any longer.

[-p.tiddy-]

:facepalm Thank God the Plague of feminism hasn't managed to ravage the entire planet, but it will take a lot longer till the infested countries wipe it out, too.

Yeah, men and women are so completely similar I can't make out the difference any more... As everyone knows, 50% of the times, it's the female that asks the male out, 50% of the times the female pays his dinner, 50% of members of sports' boards like this are females, 50% of members of boards about cooking are males, 50% of discussions about cars are initiated by females, 50% of discussions about make-up tips are initiated by males, etc.

Political correctness has become so lame and wrong it's not funny any longer.
those things you listed can be blamed on "role playing determined by society and not them" by feminists


but there is no denying that women are more emotional than men (something they HATE to hear and few of them will admitt)...which in return makes them less suitable for certain things, and perhaps more suitable for other things (in general, plenty of exceptions obviously)

my GF used to be a feminist, and she lets me know all the PC things in regards to male vs. female...but she isn't like that any more THANK GOD...now she dresses super sexy and understands that she likes playing the female role, no reason to fight what is in her genes.

[Myth]

In reality, if the supposed conversation really did take place (i have my doubts), I highly doubt it was as simplistic and black and white as our friend sergio portrays it. Like all his arguments, he oversimplifies and is only capable of acknowledging one side or the other, in this case, are men and women identical or are they different? I am guessing the discussion had too much depth for sergio to really understand what was being talked about, cause a real college prof would have an actual response for a high school level observation like "durr men have balls and women have eggs"


This is my assumption as well.

[brantonli]

Apparently women have higher pain thresholds than men, mostly because they are the ones that have to go through childbirth (and obviously we don't).

[-p.tiddy-]

Apparently women have higher pain thresholds than men, mostly because they are the ones that have to go through childbirth (and obviously we don't).
I have heard this as well, but I don't buy it...

in terms of evolution it doesn't make sense to me because males have to do all the hunting/fighting

I haven't looked into it so it could be true though...but I don't buy that they evolved that way just because of child birth...something that takes up a very small amount of their life...

[Psileas]

those things you listed can be blamed on "role playing determined by society and not them" by feminists


but there is no denying that women are more emotional than men (something they HATE to hear and few of them will admitt)...which in return makes them less suitable for certain things, and perhaps more suitable for other things (in general, plenty of exceptions obviously)

my GF used to be a feminist, and she lets me know all the PC things in regards to male vs. female...but she isn't like that any more THANK GOD...now she dresses super sexy and understands that she likes playing the female role, no reason to fight what is in her genes.

1. More reason to laugh at the stupidity of feminists. The maleness/femaleness of the human brain is not a myth and it's determined before birth. By the time a baby is born, his/her general personality has already been determined and no "society" has played any role to it. It will be more thoroughly fixed after coming in contact with other humans and becoming an adult, but nature is more important than nurture. Sorry, feminists.

2. Male/Female behavior is not a treat of humans alone, it's a treat of most animals in general, including animals which, by their nature are not social.

3. Are testosterone/estrogens a part of the social norm, too?

Given #1, 3, the effort it would take from society to bring our roles together would have to be colossal (even in countries with feminism, gender roles are still pretty fixed) and it would result in the majority of humans getting mentally (and physically) traumatized, so that a bunch of sick feminists feel happy...Is it worth it? You tell me. I'd rather remove completely these criminal minds from us than have them reform us to their likings.


I have heard this as well, but I don't buy it...

in terms of evolution it doesn't make sense to me because males have to do all the hunting/fighting

I haven't looked into it so it could be true though...but I don't buy that they evolved that way just because of child birth...something that takes up a very small amount of their life...

I don't buy this, either. Like you said, men are the hunters and do the hard/dirty jobs, it makes no sense to have less pain tolerance. I've read that quite a few studies don't support this, either. Some others claim that women have a bigger pain tolerance only in the period of giving birth.
Obviously it doesn't translate well in real life, too. You know damn well if a man were to slap himself and a woman with the same force, the woman would probably feel the more pain.

We should be careful, though, in the determination of the meaning of "pain threshold". Does it mean that the average female hurts less when subject to the same things with a male? Or that her brain is able to feel more intense pain than the male brain can?

[Hazard]

1. More reason to laugh at the stupidity of feminists. The maleness/femaleness of the human brain is not a myth and it's determined before birth. By the time a baby is born, his/her general personality has already been determined and no "society" has played any role to it. It will be more thoroughly fixed after coming in contact with other humans and becoming adults, but nature is more important than nurture. Sorry, feminists.
That topic is still up for debate, don't state that as if it were a fact. Most experts believe that both nature and nurture contribute equally to human development.

[RidonKs]

1. More reason to laugh at the stupidity of feminists. The maleness/femaleness of the human brain is not a myth and it's determined before birth. By the time a baby is born, his/her general personality has already been determined and no "society" has played any role to it. It will be more thoroughly fixed after coming in contact with other humans and becoming an adult, but nature is more important than nurture. Sorry, feminists.
wooooooow

really? with swag the father couldn't even touch? not a hint of self doubt?


the effort it would take from society to bring our roles together would have to be colossal (even in countries with feminism, gender roles are still pretty fixed) and it would result in the majority of humans getting mentally (and physically) traumatized
oh my lord


it's shit like this that makes me want to side with the feminists. they're a radical bunch, and perhaps rightfully so fighting against perhaps the most ingrained stereotype in the history of human civilization, a good chunk of which absolutely has to be biologically grounded and thus incontrovertible.

but this horseshit? you're arguing that trauma would result from... what exactly? gender roles as they manifest in jobs? hobbies? marketing/media? just what the hell are you talking about? i just really want to know because it smells remarkably... swiss.

[Psileas]

That topic is still up for debate, don't state that as if it were a fact. Most experts believe that both nature and nurture contribute equally to human development.

A problem that arises with this is that "nurture", even in countries like the US, still constitutes mainly of the people that brought you to life and therefore, a part of the "nurture" thing gets mixed with nature. That is, two parents with certain personality traits in their genes are unlikely to raise their child in a way different from the one their genes determine.
But I still doubt that a human with really bad genes has a good possibility of developing into something good because of some higher quality of nurture.

I'm not sure most experts agree on the 50/50 thing, either. I've read the 80/20 figure too many times, although most of them refer to intelligence.

[Hazard]

A problem that arises with this is that "nurture", even in countries like the US, still constitutes mainly of the people that brought you to life and therefore, a part of the "nurture" thing gets mixed with nature. That is, two parents with certain personality traits in their genes are unlikely to raise their child in a way different from the one their genes determine.
But I still doubt that a human with really bad genes has a good possibility of developing into something good because of some higher quality of nurture.

I'm not sure most experts agree on the 50/50 thing, either. I've read the 80/20 figure too many times, although most of them refer to intelligence.
There is still uncertainty about origins of intelligence, but when talking about behavior both nature and nurture factor in equally. Also using myself as an example, being an immigrant early in life I developed majority of my behavior in the US. When compared to my parents who developed in USSR, we are completely different. So nurture is a major factor for myself and many other people that had a similar history.

[Psileas]

wooooooow

really? with swag the father couldn't even touch? not a hint of self doubt?


oh my lord


it's shit like this that makes me want to side with the feminists. they're a radical bunch, and perhaps rightfully so fighting against perhaps the most ingrained stereotype in the history of human civilization, a good chunk of which absolutely has to be biologically grounded and thus incontrovertible.

but this horseshit? you're arguing that trauma would result from... what exactly? gender roles as they manifest in jobs? hobbies? marketing/media? just what the hell are you talking about? i just really want to know because it smells remarkably... swiss.

Very simple: By gender roles determined by...your gender. Like it or not, we're not the same. Take an average boy and leave it up to him to decide what it will deal with and, oh the horror, it will deal with the traditional boy stuff. Girls the same.
Some of you, for some reason, don't want to admit that a lot, if not most parents don't push their boys/girls to be boys/girls. They take their natural path. Does this simple fact scare you that much that you want to "side with the feminists"? Not that I care, obviously. Side with whoever the heck you want. It won't make you more correct if you reject something because you dislike it.

[Myth]

it's shit like this that makes me want to side with the feminists. they're a radical bunch

I think it is important to distinguish because feminism and radical feminism. People seem to think of feminists as man hating radicals, but that is just the extreme feminists. Most feminists simply believe that women are socially equal to men and want women to have the same rights/payment scale as men.

[Psileas]

There is still uncertainty about origins of intelligence, but when talking about behavior both nature and nurture factor in equally. Also using myself as an example, being an immigrant early in life I developed majority of my behavior in the US. When compared to my parents who developed in USSR, we are completely different. So nurture is a major factor for myself and many other people that had a similar history.

Is your character different from the one of your parents? That's obviously what matters the most, and I hope you're talking about this, not more superficial stuff like "favorite type of music".

[-p.tiddy-]

There is still uncertainty about origins of intelligence, but when talking about behavior both nature and nurture factor in equally. Also using myself as an example, being an immigrant early in life I developed majority of my behavior in the US. When compared to my parents who developed in USSR, we are completely different. So nurture is a major factor for myself and many other people that had a similar history.
men and women have similar roles in every culture though...I think that is the NATURE of it

[Psileas]

I think it is important to distinguish because feminism and radical feminism. People seem to think of feminists as man hating radicals, but that is just the extreme feminists. Most feminists simply believe that women are socially equal to men and want women to have the same rights/payment scale as men.

How about men who want to have the same rights with a woman, including all the parts of the law that favor women (you know, things like who keeps the child, whether someone + who pays alimony, etc)? Are they feminists, as well?

And why should we call such a type of people (mine or your examples) feminists? Wouldn't a word like "equalists" be a lot more suitable?

[-p.tiddy-]

Nature has to be the reason that there are no female posters in here...it isn't like every female on the planet was raised to not care much for basketball

[RidonKs]

And why should we call such a type of people (mine or your examples) feminists? Wouldn't a word like "equalists" be a lot more suitable?
because sexual equality didn't just spring out of the ground numbnuts, it took a MOVEMENT, one whose members oh so coincidentally called themselves feminists, to actually get them basic rights like suffrage. contemporary feminists are merely carrying to torch... and there's still a long way to go.

i'll address your other post later, but it is no less brimming with ridiculously presumptive and unproven statements than this one.

[Psileas]

because sexual equality didn't just spring out of the ground numbnuts, it took a MOVEMENT, one whose members oh so coincidentally called themselves feminists, to actually get them basic rights like suffrage. contemporary feminists are merely carrying to torch... and there's still a long way to go.

i'll address your other post later, but it is no less brimming with ridiculously presumptive and unproven statements than this one.

Moron, who the hell is talking about equality? We're talking about sameness, which is a totally different thing, but some extreme feminists pretend to ignore this.

Title thread:
Do you think men and women behave differently?

Just because the OP mentioned feminists, this doesn't mean it's a matter about equality.

The rest of your stuff are irrelevant to mine for the same reason.

[Hazard]

men and women have similar roles in every culture though...I think that is the NATURE of it
What role might that be? Sex objects and cooks?

[Hazard]

Is your character different from the one of your parents? That's obviously what matters the most, and I hope you're talking about this, not more superficial stuff like "favorite type of music".
Yes, I'm talking about music taste... this ****ing kid.

[-p.tiddy-]

What role might that be? Sex objects and cooks?

it might be sad to you, sorry, but the fact that EVERY culture on the planet went in similar directions in terms of role playing tells me that is the natural progression of things.

[Hazard]

it might be sad to you, sorry, but the fact that EVERY culture on the planet went in similar directions in terms of role playing tells me that is the natural progression of things.
So I take it you're well read about every single culture known to society and can make statements like that knowing that they are supported by facts, correct?

[Myth]

How about men who want to have the same rights with a woman, including all the parts of the law that favor women (you know, things like who keeps the child, whether someone + who pays alimony, etc)? Are they feminists, as well?

And why should we call such a type of people (mine or your examples) feminists? Wouldn't a word like "equalists" be a lot more suitable?

Yes to the first part (though more radical feminists will not view you as such). Also, I do think equalists would be ore suitable, but the word feminist is still used to emphasize that women are still playing catch up in our society, thus are still more of the focus. The term is used similarly to the African-American Civil Rights Movement. That movement was really more about racial equality, but there was an emphasis on African Americans because they were the ones held back the most by society rules/norms.

[-p.tiddy-]

So I take it you're well read about every single culture known to society and can make statements like that knowing that they are supported by facts, correct?
I'm familar with most major culures, not all of them obviously

is there a culture where the women are hunting and bringing home the food and the men are cooking?...maybe so, but that culture is in the minority.

[Hazard]

I'm familar with most major culures, not all of them obviously

is there a culture where the women are hunting and bringing home the food and the men are cooking?...maybe so, but that culture is in the minority.
Well talking about this very culture, I'm sure there are women that will put your paycheck to shame. So by definition, they would be the providers. Plenty of stay at home dads, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Psileas]

Yes to the first part (though more radical feminists will not view you as such). Also, I do think equalists would be ore suitable, but the word feminist is still used to emphasize that women are still playing catch up in our society, thus are still more of the focus.

True, but the fact is, some women, no matter how privileged they get, will always pretend they're playing catch up in society. There's no reason to believe women are the underrated sex in the US, but I doubt we'll see feminism go away for the decades to come.

[-p.tiddy-]

Well talking about this very culture, I'm sure there are women that will put your paycheck to shame. So by definition, they would be the providers.
um no, in this culture the men typically make more money...Some women do make more than their male partner but they are in the minority.

why are you getting so defensive?...I'm not out to offend here

[Hazard]

um no, in this culture the men typically make more money...Some women do make more than their male partner but they are in the minority.

why are you getting so defensive?...I'm not out to offend here
I'm not getting defensive, I'm stating facts. Men are not the providers in this culture, nor are they the hunters. There are lots of female doctors, psychologists, scientists, software developers etc. All those jobs have potential to make a shitload of money, and in society where money determines status, that would make them the main provider to a household.

[-p.tiddy-]

I'm not getting defensive, I'm stating facts. Men are not the providers in this culture, nor are they the hunters. There are lots of female doctors, psychologists, scientists, software developers etc. All those jobs have potential to make a shitload of money, and in society where money determines status, that would make them the main provider to a household.
huh?...they certainly are the majority of the time...

those women are in the minority...agreed?...or do I need to pull up statisics on which gender makes more money?



Hazard, I am not saying it is "right" or "wrong" or that every culture can't advance into something better, including our own cultures here in the US.

I am just saying that the fact that men and women have similar roles in most cultures tells me that is the natural progression of things. Maybe it is a shame, maybe it is wrong, but it is what happens naturally.

[Myth]

True, but the fact is, some women, no matter how privileged they get, will always pretend they're playing catch up in society. There's no reason to believe women are the underrated sex in the US, but I doubt we'll see feminism go away for the decades to come.

Well, that also depends on where you live in the US. In more rural areas and areas dominated by traditional religions there is certainly a disparity in social rights of men versus women. Also, men are still paid considerably more for comparable jobs. In larger and more progressive cities, women are viewed equally for the most part, but don't let that blind you to the more subtle and covert discrimination.

One of the easiest ways of seeing how the culture grooms for more subtle opinions that men are better than women is by looking at children. Girls and boys are generally taught to like gender oriented things (Boys: sports, trucks, etc; Girls: dolls, playing house/mom, etc). Now when a girl likes something that is stereotypically male, such as sports, it is not a big deal. But if a boy starts playing with baby dolls, he is mocked by peers and often discouraged by parents. This is subtle hints that male oriented things are to be desired and it is highly encouraged in boys and accepted if girls participate, while female oriented things are encouraged and accepted in girls but unacceptable for a boy to participate in as if they are playing down to a girls level and that is not OK.

[Hazard]

huh?...they certainly are the majority of the time...

those women are in the minority...agreed?...or do I need to pull up statisics on which gender makes more money?



Hazard, I am not saying it is "right" or "wrong" or that every culture can't advance into something better, including our own cultures here in the US.

I am just saying that the fact that men and women have similar roles in most cultures tells me that is the natural progression of things. Maybe it is a shame, maybe it is wrong, but it is what happens naturally.
That may be true, men do get paid more. I think its stupid, especially in positions where physical strength is not required. But back to the point, I just looked up some statistics and on average, in most colleges, there is a greater female population than male. I didn't look up the graduate stats, but assuming they do make it out of college and find a successful career, then women making a high salary would outnumber men. I could be wrong, this is after 5 minutes of research. Also from my own observation, I notice women tend to move on to grad school more so than males.

[Myth]

That may be true, men do get paid more. I think its stupid, especially in positions where physical strength is not required. But back to the point, I just looked up some statistics and on average, in most colleges, there is a greater female population than male. I didn't look up the graduate stats, but assuming they do make it out of college and find a successful career, then women making a high salary would outnumber men. I could be wrong, this is after 5 minutes of research.

The problem is that men get paid more for comparable jobs.

[-p.tiddy-]

That may be true, men do get paid more. I think its stupid, especially in positions where physical strength is not required. But back to the point, I just looked up some statistics and on average, in most colleges, there is a greater female population than male. I didn't look up the graduate stats, but assuming they do make it out of college and find a successful career, then women making a high salary would outnumber men. I could be wrong, this is after 5 minutes of research.
just found this...


http://feministing.com/files/2011/08/educationpaygapgender.jpg



Hazard, perhaps the natural progression of every culture will eventually have the women making more than men...but we aren't there yet.

[Hazard]

The problem is that men get paid more for comparable jobs.
I understand that, but it definitely says something about a woman's character if going just by those statistics.

[Hazard]

just found this...


http://feministing.com/files/2011/08/educationpaygapgender.jpg



Hazard, perhaps the natural progression of every culture will eventually have the women making more than men...but we aren't there yet.
I don't think they should make more than men, but it should definitely be even. Regardless, speculation vs reality is a stupid topic of discussion.

Just found this (http://www.academic.umn.edu/equity/research/metrics/GS/gg.html), shows that on average more women attend grad school as well. Either way, I gotta bounce. Good talk.

[Psileas]

Well, that also depends on where you live in the US. In more rural areas and areas dominated by traditional religions there is certainly a disparity in social rights of men versus women. Also, men are still paid considerably more for comparable jobs. In larger and more progressive cities, women are viewed equally for the most part, but don't let that blind you to the more subtle and covert discrimination.

One of the easiest ways of seeing how the culture grooms for more subtle opinions that men are better than women is by looking at children. Girls and boys are generally taught to like gender oriented things (Boys: sports, trucks, etc; Girls: dolls, playing house/mom, etc). Now when a girl likes something that is stereotypically male, such as sports, it is not a big deal. But if a boy starts playing with baby dolls, he is mocked by peers and often discouraged by parents. This is subtle hints that male oriented things are to be desired and it is highly encouraged in boys and accepted if girls participate, while female oriented things are encouraged and accepted in girls but unacceptable for a boy to participate in as if they are playing down to a girls level and that is not OK.

Yes, going by this, we may get to believing that society expects men to do better/more interesting things than women. Which, of course, if viewed from the other side of the coin, may not look as attractive, since it puts a bigger bargain on men, just in order to enjoy the same respect. Of course, almost no man would dare complain about this, since he'd look like a wuss, but taking this fact aside, each edge of the sword cuts a different gender.

[Psileas]

Well, that also depends on where you live in the US. In more rural areas and areas dominated by traditional religions there is certainly a disparity in social rights of men versus women. Also, men are still paid considerably more for comparable jobs. In larger and more progressive cities, women are viewed equally for the most part, but don't let that blind you to the more subtle and covert discrimination.

I'm not a US resident, but I've read studies that show that, adjusting for

1) type of job
2) job hardship
3) the hours you work per week
4) the years you've worked
5) the years you've worked at the same job
6) your position in that job

there's no gap whatsoever in favor of men.

I don't know what's going on in the most traditional of states, but you know very well that it's illegal to get paid different wages/salaries for doing exactly the same job with another person. Women know this, as well. So, my question is, since women complain very frequently about getting lower salaries/wages, have there been instances of female workers of specific companies/organizations that complained/went on strike/etc, for this very reason? If yes, did they manage to prove that they work exactly like men?
And a more general question: If hiring a woman who's able to do exactly the same things with a man is cheaper, what employer would be stupid enough to hire men, let alone run companies where men consist the clear majority of workers?

[Psileas]

Humans invented gender roles. Every parents influences their child into a gender choice because it's been conditioned since humanity existed.

A girl raised as a boy will act like a traditional boy, and vice versa.

We didn't "invent" anything. Humans, like all other animals, immediately realized their roles, which is why primitive men were still the ones doing the traditional "male" jobs and women the "female" ones.

The "girl raised as a boy"/opposite experiment has failed a lot more often than succeeded, and even in the cases it did succeed, it happened because the child had already been born "too feminine/masculine for his/her sex". Take baby Mike Tyson and try to raise him as a woman. You'll lose your time and create a confused/hateful human. Like I said, most boys, by nature don't like playing with girlish toys and vice-versa, and this comes without the need of any parental guidance.

[-p.tiddy-]

We didn't "invent" anything. Humans, like all other animals, immediately realized their roles
exactly

it isn't some really amazing coincidence that every culture on the planet "invented" similar roles for males and females...it is just the natural progression of society

[Myth]

I'm not a US resident, but I've read studies that show that, adjusting for

1) type of job
2) job hardship
3) the hours you work per week
4) the years you've worked
5) the years you've worked at the same job
6) your position in that job

there's no gap whatsoever in favor of men.

I don't know what's going on in the most traditional of states, but you know very well that it's illegal to get paid different wages/salaries for doing exactly the same job with another person. Women know this, as well. So, my question is, since women complain very frequently about getting lower salaries/wages, have there been instances of female workers of specific companies/organizations that complained/went on strike/etc, for this very reason? If yes, did they manage to prove that they work exactly like men?
And a more general question: If hiring a woman who's able to do exactly the same things with a man is cheaper, what employer would be stupid enough to hire men, let alone run companies where men consist the clear majority of workers?

I would like to see one or a few of those studies, because I've seen some that take into account at least several of those and they still showed women paid less for comparable jobs.

As for the laws against gender pay discrimination, there are still issues with the enforcement of those laws. I've personally known many women who were paid less than men with the same job even when the men were less experienced/educated.

The other part being overlooked is that women are pushed into lower paying jobs and have a harder time getting promoted. Additionally, men and women are generally promoted under different expectations. Men are typically promoted when they are viewed as strong and assertive. Women are often viewed more passive but are then viewed as "bitches" if they are strong and assertive, thus they have to find a balance in the collective views of society's employers to get promoted.

[Jailblazers7]

I've read in an economic study that part of the wage difference may arise from the differences between how men and women bargain for raises, starting salary, etc. Men tend to be more comfortable bargaining for higher wages while women are less comfortable approaching an employer about a waage increase. I think that the study found that male wages tend to increase by 2-3% faster rate because of this.

[Myth]

The "girl raised as a boy"/opposite experiment has failed a lot more often than succeeded, and even in the cases it did succeed, it happened because the child had already been born "too feminine/masculine for his/her sex". Take baby Mike Tyson and try to raise him as a woman. You'll lose your time and create a confused/hateful human. Like I said, most boys, by nature don't like playing with girlish toys and vice-versa, and this comes without the need of any parental guidance.

That is because humans are not raised in a vacuum. Even when the parents try to push the opposite direction, society has an adverse reaction because they don't view it as normal. Boys dressed as girls are teased and become social outcasts, which is why they become confused and hateful.

This family was in the news fairly recently for keeping their child's gender hidden from society: http://www.christianpost.com/news/parents-finally-reveal-gender-of-child-after-5-years-of-secrecy-67672/. Every indication so far is that the kid did not choose to do more boy things (though, admittedly the parents could have had a decent amount of bias, whether consciously or unconsciously). But if you scroll to the comments, you will see tons of hateful comments. In the end, if this child turns out screwed up, there is more of a chance IMO that it is due to the scrutiny and hate this child will receive from society than due to the child spending 5 years in a gender neutral environment.

[Myth]

I've read in an economic study that part of the wage difference may arise from the differences between how men and women bargain for raises, starting salary, etc. Men tend to be more comfortable bargaining for higher wages while women are less comfortable approaching an employer about a waage increase. I think that the study found that male wages tend to increase by 2-3% faster rate because of this.

This is also very true. The burning question around this: Are they more aggressive/entitled because of testosterone/other hormones or because of society grooming them to be more aggressive, or a combination. On the female end, they could be more hesitant due to not wanting to be viewed as a 'bitch" as I mentioned 15 minutes ago.

[Jasper]

Men and women are very similar. There is only one difference: Men have the dick so they are dominant. In every situation with a man, a woman is submissive. She might pretend to be dominant, but in reality the man is.

Women have learned to turn their submissiveness into a manipulation tactic.

Men have learned to use their strength to get what they want.

-Smak
:bowdown:

my squeeze has 4 kids' and if I say or hint that her motherhood is in question , I just bit my own dick.

Other comments on my part get a gerrr look.... you got the idea. :oldlol:

[Jasper]

I've read in an economic study that part of the wage difference may arise from the differences between how men and women bargain for raises, starting salary, etc. Men tend to be more comfortable bargaining for higher wages while women are less comfortable approaching an employer about a waage increase. I think that the study found that male wages tend to increase by 2-3% faster rate because of this.

I believe you are correct.
Before the economy went into the toilet , The previous company I worked for , I told them when I should get a raise.
Point blank, no stare down , I told them my opinion , and it usually worked.

[Psileas]

I would like to see one or a few of those studies, because I've seen some that take into account at least several of those and they still showed women paid less for comparable jobs.

As for the laws against gender pay discrimination, there are still issues with the enforcement of those laws. I've personally known many women who were paid less than men with the same job even when the men were less experienced/educated.

The other part being overlooked is that women are pushed into lower paying jobs and have a harder time getting promoted. Additionally, men and women are generally promoted under different expectations. Men are typically promoted when they are viewed as strong and assertive. Women are often viewed more passive but are then viewed as "bitches" if they are strong and assertive, thus they have to find a balance in the collective views of society's employers to get promoted.

First of all, a couple of articles (the second one has some figures):

http://angryharrysblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/gender-wage-gap-myth-australia.html
http://www.harrysnews.com/tgUnequalPayforEqualWork.htm

Second, I think you attribute too much on society and too little on genetics. Society doesn't work in a vacuum, either. It bears certain expectations for men and women based on what the two genders have shown over the period of time they are better qualified to do.
Again, go to the primitive years. Societies were way smaller and not connected to each other, yet gender roles definitely existed - actually, someone could argue that roles were even better seperated and that bigger societies brought the gender roles closer. Why were primitive societies making boys hunters and girls housekeepers? And if women were the same as men, character-wise, why didn't they disagree and follow their supposedly real instincts, like every man and every healthy human would do? Because they were weaker? Most men would rather fight to the end or get seperated from society than be enslaved within it, so why wouldn't women do the same? And if, for some reason, they prefered overpressing their ego and follow a path they didn't want, how exactly did the human species survive, with half its population, representing almost 100% of a single sex (the bodily weaker sex, BTW, and the only one that could bear children), being oppressed? How could 50% of people be physically and mentally oppressed, yet still produced more than enough mentally healthy children, and how did this proccess repeat itself with no problem (though females had supposedly always been oppressed) and we became 7+ billion and by far the most advanced organism on the planet? It's unnatural. It either means that oppression is completely overrated and not something important or that the whole gender "oppression" thing is a myth and that things just progressed naturally. I'll take the second explanation.

I don't see women being "pushed" at lower-paid jobs. I see women valuing things like family and staying close to their relatives more than men, while men tend to be more competitive and career-oriented. You don't teach competitiveness, you either have it or not. Similarly, you don't teach specific interests. A child of two physicists is unlikely to develop an interest to become a basketball player and vice-versa. Society? Nope, the child has shown the first glimpses of interest before . Nurture? Sure, but I don't think most parents would push their children to deal with something they never seem interested in.

Women do try to prove more than men, but strength and assertiveness is awarded regardless of gender. Bitches are women who just pretend to be strong and assertive, but they only do so in order to be seen like this, to keep control of their environment, while in fact they don't have a clue what they are doing. A lot of them behave this way, so they deserve their "accolades".
Is it a wonder that both male and female workers prefer having male bosses?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/7938593/Workers-prefer-male-bosses.html
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-08/strategy/30128381_1_preference-male-boss-gallup-first
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1206053/Women-prefer-work-male-bosses-better-managers-prone-moods.html (make sure you read the better rated comments, as well)
http://careerbright.com/career-self-help/career-woman/the-female-boss-%E2%80%93-is-she-different-from-her-male-counterpart

[Psileas]

That is because humans are not raised in a vacuum. Even when the parents try to push the opposite direction, society has an adverse reaction because they don't view it as normal. Boys dressed as girls are teased and become social outcasts, which is why they become confused and hateful.

This family was in the news fairly recently for keeping their child's gender hidden from society: http://www.christianpost.com/news/parents-finally-reveal-gender-of-child-after-5-years-of-secrecy-67672/. Every indication so far is that the kid did not choose to do more boy things (though, admittedly the parents could have had a decent amount of bias, whether consciously or unconsciously). But if you scroll to the comments, you will see tons of hateful comments. In the end, if this child turns out screwed up, there is more of a chance IMO that it is due to the scrutiny and hate this child will receive from society than due to the child spending 5 years in a gender neutral environment.

After a quick read of the article, I saw this:


Sasha is allowed to wear a pink tu-tu, dress up as a fairy, play with dolls, and wear whatever he likes.


"I just want him (Sasha) to fulfill his potential, and I wouldn't push him in any direction."

As long as the parents are honest, this simply means he was born quite feminine, which happens to quite a few boys, so nothing unusual here.


This is also very true. The burning question around this: Are they more aggressive/entitled because of testosterone/other hormones or because of society grooming them to be more aggressive, or a combination. On the female end, they could be more hesitant due to not wanting to be viewed as a 'bitch" as I mentioned 15 minutes ago.

It's a combination. The effects of testostarone are well-known and you can't dismiss them. People who have taken testosterone for medical purposes admit that it inflated their energy, aggressiveness and sex drive. The only debate is which factor is more important. And knowing that men are more aggressive (please, don't bring up bitches pulling hair and random Youtube videos, you know very well that males are more inclined to injure or kill other males than females are towards their own sex), I'll pick the nature part, once more.

[RoseCity07]

My grandma is always telling me about the superiority of women over men and about how women are more complex. Yet, my grandpa ruined her life, cheated on her, and she never divorced him. He completely and utterly dominated her.

Yeah they behave differently, but I wouldn't ever say one is better than the other.

[Psileas]

Bump after many days (probably my last post in this thread). Normally, I wouldn't bother, but I remembered this thread and checked it out and I can't stand the following crap and leave it unanswered:


Gender and gender roles are created by each society and culture. If you don't realize that then you don't know what you're talking about.

Nope, gender exists as long as a species exists and gender roles are the ones that shape society, not vice-versa. Primitive people didn't suddenly decide to give out specific gender roles after the creation of the first societies. The first thing you get to know is yourself, not the others.


Plus your Mike Tyson metaphor is absolutely stupid. He's a confused and hateful person now.

Or maybe you are not intelligent enough to realize that I'm not specifically talking about Tyson - take most sane male boxers or males for that matter, and my argument stands. A person like this will be confused because his education will be contrary to his nature, plain and simple. If you're born with high enough doses of testosterone, but your parents insist that you play with Barbie and Little Pony dolls, you bet your ass you're going to become pretty confused and hateful while growing up.


Boys don't play with girl toys because parents condition them to know they are for girls.

Boys don't fight because their parents condition them to fight. They fight because they were born with this tendency. And, no, parents don't decide what their children will prefer to play. I've known my fair share of parents, and their children tend to show their preferences very early, before they get to buy boyish or girly toys, and guess what: Boys are boys and girls are girls. A friend of mine bought only gender-neutral toys for his baby boy and girl. You guessed it: The boy quickly started getting attracted by cars on the street and got into fighting with other boys quite quickly, the girl didn't give a dime about this stuff and behaved like a typical girl. And, no, their parents didn't advice them at the ages of 2 or 3 what their "roles" are. And obviously that's not an atypical/unique example.
You may force your child to play with a specific type of toy, but as long as the child shows no interest or preference, forget it. I'd rather have my child follow his/her own instinct, instead of following some new stupid "sameness" norm that believes that children's preferences are actually asexual and requires us to somehow make children believe this is true, when everything points to the other direction.

[-p.tiddy-]

Gender and gender roles are created by each society and culture. If you don't realize that then you don't know what you're talking about.

Plus your Mike Tyson metaphor is absolutely stupid. He's a confused and hateful person now.

Boys don't play with girl toys because parents condition them to know they are for girls.
not true...a lot of boys with gender identity issues perfered to play with "girl toys" and dress up as girls when they were children...

and a lot of girls with the same type issues where tom-boy types...


and a lot of the toys that kids PREFER to play with they ask for...it isn't handed to them.

[Nick Young]

That's because he makes up their opinions so he can then make up his tough guy responses to act cool on an internet message board.
Yes sport, it is all inventions of my psychotic brain.

Prof came up to me last week at break and then said she really appreciated the things I said because it seems like I think for myself and research things and don't just believe what Im told, and encouraged me to keep speaking up, then started debating that Titanic was actually a pro-feminist film of female empowerment and destruction of social class and I just agreed with her so she'd go away.

Also this fool said people make games like Tekken and Ninja Gaiden to exploit the asian racial stereotype of "the orient being mysterious kung fu ninjas"
then I pointed out that those games are designed by asian companies for an asian audience, only sold to the west after proving their sales in asia.

She says alot of dumb things IMO

[Nick Young]

I think it is important to distinguish because feminism and radical feminism. People seem to think of feminists as man hating radicals, but that is just the extreme feminists. Most feminists simply believe that women are socially equal to men and want women to have the same rights/payment scale as men.
Do you believe that female tennis players deserve the same payment as males despite drawing lower ratings and playing two less sets than the males?

Do you believe that female police officers should recieve the same payment as male police officers? Despite the ratio of police officers being 80/20 male/female

the death rate is something in the range of 300/1 male female. Are they really doing the same job and deserve the same payment?

Why are feminists only fighting for equal oppurtunities in the best jobs like CEOs, doctors and lawyers. Why aren't they fighting for equal rights in the fields of coal mining, sewage working and construction as well? Don't they want true equality?

Are feminists fighting for the right to pay child support to divorced husbands who have custody of their children? Are feminists fighting for the right to not be entitled to free money from the father of their child?

[Rojogaqu11]

Men and women are different. Equal but not the same. Why do we try to question what is biologically evident?

Society loses direction when it hears too many voices, and it tries to please them all.

[Nick Young]

Men and women are different. Equal but not the same. Why do we try to question what is biologically evident?

Society loses direction when it hears too many voices, and it tries to please them all.
:rockon:

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Men and women are different. Equal but not the same. Why do we try to question what is biologically evident?

Society loses direction when it hears too many voices, and it tries to please them all.

No they are not equal. Men are much superior. We lie becaues its in our best interestes to please. serious.

[Nick Young]

These teacher recently showed a white comedian impersonating nelson mandela in blackface and said how outrageous it was. Then this dumb white hippy kid started saying it was an outrage, and you aren't allowed to make fun of Mandela because he spent "30 years in prison or some shit".

Then the professor asked "we've heard from the white kids but what do the black students think of all this" 60% of the class is black, I facepalmed on the outside and inside.

Then some chick was just like "it's pretty funny"

then the prof changed the subject.

This class is probably the most retarded class in the history of academia. I feel like I am losing brain cells every time I go.

Last week when the teacher asked who is Karl Marx some idiot spoke up that he was "that beard guy from the sixties"