Bird or Magic?

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Frankly I don't see how this is even a debate. Magic appears to be a shittier version of Bird.

-Bird has a better post game
-Bird is the better scorer overall
-Bird is an elite shooter while Magics shot is questionable at best
-Bird is the superior rebounder
-Bird is just as good of a passer, just doesn't hog the ball as much
-Bird is the better defender

How does anyone think Magic is better? More rings? Yeah no surprise seeing as how he played with a top 5 player of all-time in Kareem while Birds best teammate McHale is probably top 40 all-time.

Career Numbers/Production
Bird: 24.3 PPG 10.0 RPG 6.3 APG 49.6FG% 37.6 3PT% 1.7 SPG 0.8 BPG 3.1 TPG
Magic: 19.5 PPG 7.2 RPG 11.2 APG 52 FG% 30.1 3PT% 1.9 SPG 0.4 BPG 3.9 TPG

Primes
Bird: 28.7 PPG 10.5 RPG 6.6 APG 52.2FG% 42.7 3PT% 1.6 SPG 1.2 BPG 3.1 TPG
Magic: 23.4 PPG 6.3 RPG 12.2 APG 52.2FG% 20.5 3PT% 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TPG

Not to mention Birds Prime SHITS ON MAGICS and had it not been for late career injuries this comparison would be even more of a joke than it already is.

[bizil]

Frankly I don't see how this is even a debate. Magic appears to be a shittier version of Bird.

-Bird has a better post game
-Bird is the better scorer overall
-Bird is an elite shooter while Magics shot is questionable at best
-Bird is the superior rebounder
-Bird is just as good of a passer, just doesn't hog the ball as much
-Bird is the better defender

How does anyone think Magic is better? More rings? Yeah no surprise seeing as how he played with a top 5 player of all-time in Kareem while Birds best teammate McHale is probably top 40 all-time.

Career Numbers/Production
Bird: 24.3 PPG 10.0 RPG 6.3 APG 49.6FG% 37.6 3PT% 1.7 SPG 0.8 BPG 3.1 TPG
Magic: 19.5 PPG 7.2 RPG 11.2 APG 52 FG% 30.1 3PT% 1.9 SPG 0.4 BPG 3.9 TPG

Primes
Bird: 28.7 PPG 10.5 RPG 6.6 APG 52.2FG% 42.7 3PT% 1.6 SPG 1.2 BPG 3.1 TPG
Magic: 23.4 PPG 6.3 RPG 12.2 APG 52.2FG% 20.5 3PT% 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TPG

Not to mention Birds Prime SHITS ON MAGICS and had it not been for late career injuries this comparison would be even more of a joke than it already is.

If anything it's arguable either way. As great as Bird was passing, Magic was better. Magic was a natural PG at 6'9. He wasn't at PG for shits and giggles or for a freak circus act. Magic in my book had a better post game than Bird as well. Bird is arguably the greatest shooter of all time so no shame there. Bird is the better rebounder but it's not as big of a gap when u consider the positions they played. Bird played closer to the rack and played a ton of PF. Magic had alpha dog scoring capabilities and his shooting got better over time. I just think Magic was more unique of a player than a very unique one in Bird himself. U saw traits of Bird's game in guys like a Rick Barry. Bird was a couple of inches taller and had the luxury to use the three ball as more of a weapon. Magic was a 6'9 PG with Harlem Globetrotter type flair with a basketball. And he was an alpha dog scorer when he had to or damn well felt like being one. But with these two its like picking between Austin or Rock. U can't go wrong either way.

[iamgine]

Frankly I don't see how this is even a debate. Magic appears to be a shittier version of Bird.

-Bird has a better post game
-Bird is the better scorer overall
-Bird is an elite shooter while Magics shot is questionable at best
-Bird is the superior rebounder
-Bird is just as good of a passer, just doesn't hog the ball as much
-Bird is the better defender

Lets see here...

-Bird was a forward
-It's his job to score
-Still very similar efficiency which work in guard's favor
-Bird was a forward
-Not really
-Not really

[JtotheIzzo]

Love Bird, but Magic did more with his career, so the title goes to Magic.

Stats lie.

[pauk]

Talent-skill-productions = Larry Bird (if only he was a better defender i would call him the most complete player to ever play this game)

More accomplished career = Magic Johnson

[jlauber]

Never seen this discussed before.

How about this...Bird was the greatest SF of all-time, and Magic was the greatest PG of all-time, and leave it at that. Any GM would have been thrilled to have either.

[Horatio33]

As much as I love Bird, his game was more complete, but I'd pick Magic if I had to pick between the two to start a team. Magic is one of the greatest winners ever. Between him, Russell, Jordan or Kareem.

[Harison]

Some rank Magic just above Bird due to accolades, however when they both came to NBA, there was no question who was better till Bird started declining due to back issues, etc.

[Shepseskaf]

Some rank Magic just above Bird due to accolades, however when they both came to NBA, there was no question who was better till Bird started declining due to back issues, etc.
:roll:

That's a pretty definitive statement, and a false one.

[winnnaz]

You can't seriously pick one to be better than the other...

Why can't they just be one of the best ever? Considering they played different positions and were in different situations.
I'm content saying they were equals, which is what they were during their reigns.

[scm5]

Some rank Magic just above Bird due to accolades, however when they both came to NBA, there was no question who was better till Bird started declining due to back issues, etc.

Oh, you mean when Magic came in the league and won Finals MVP, playing all 5 positions, and winning despite Kareem being injured?

Magic put up 42/15/7/3/1 in Game 6 to win the title. Take a while to soak in those numbers, then realize this was his rookie season.

Yea, no question that Magic came up big when it mattered the most.

[donald_trump]

:roll:

That's a pretty definitive statement, and a false one.

no, its not false. bird was considered the better player. it was essentially the gap between lebron, and whoever you consider the number 2 player right now in the league. thats how obvious it was back then. it is only after they both retired that magics fairy tale story made him seem superior.

it goes to prove a great resume can get you anywhere. anyone that watched both knows who was better.

[Odinn]

Oh, you mean when Magic came in the league and won Finals MVP, playing all 5 positions, and winning despite Kareem being injured?

Magic put up 42/15/7/3/1 in Game 6 to win the title. Take a while to soak in those numbers, then realize this was his rookie season.

Yea, no question that Magic came up big when it mattered the most.
I love that game but I'm sick of this fairy-tale. Bird won that RoY award and he deserved it. Also Kareem's FMVP award was robbed. Kareem was the man. Kareem led the Lakers to the the title. People act like it was all about Magic. It was all about Magic in that game 6 only.

[LAClipsFan33]

I love that game but I'm sick of this fairy-tale. Bird won that RoY award and he deserved it. Also Kareem's FMVP award was robbed. Kareem was the man. Kareem led the Lakers to the the title. People act like it was all about Magic. It was all about Magic in that game 6 only.

Actually the most disrespected man from that game was Jamaal Wilkes. Dropped 37 points !!! Nobody mentions it or cares...

[jlip]

Never seen this discussed before.

How about this...Bird was the greatest SF of all-time, and Magic was the greatest PG of all-time, and leave it at that. Any GM would have been thrilled to have either.

This
/Thread

[Shepseskaf]

no, its not false. bird was considered the better player. it was essentially the gap between lebron, and whoever you consider the number 2 player right now in the league. thats how obvious it was back then. it is only after they both retired that magics fairy tale story made him seem superior.

it goes to prove a great resume can get you anywhere. anyone that watched both knows who was better.
Holy God, talk about fairy tales -- what garbage are you spewing?

I can tell right away that this is a very opinionated, subjective stance, and for that reason I'm not going to bother debating it. But for you to say that Bird, at any point, was considered far and away better than Magic is just idiocy.

[donald_trump]

Yea, no question that Magic came up big when it mattered the most.

yet called tragic johnson in the clutch.

people talk about lebrons blunders as if they are a first time thing for a superstar. if anyone was actually around they'd remember magic failing over and over again. same goes for jordan for that matter.

[donald_trump]

Holy God, talk about fairy tales -- what garbage are you spewing?

I can tell right away that this is a very opinionated, subjective stance, and for that reason I'm not going to bother debating it. But for you to say that Bird, at any point, was considered far and away better than Magic is just idiocy.

of course, while magic was being called tragic, bird was getting greatest of all time talks. yeah, the gap wasn't big or anything. :rolleyes:
i can put down money right now that you weren't over the age of 10 when all this occurred.

[Shepseskaf]

of course, while magic was being called tragic, bird was getting greatest of all time talks. yeah, the gap wasn't big or anything. :rolleyes:
i can put down money right now that you weren't over the age of 10 when all this occurred.
You would lose the bet, and your money -- however much you had to bet (probably not much since you sound functionally illiterate).

[donald_trump]

You would lose the bet, and your money -- however much you had to bet (probably not much since you sound functionally illiterate).

explain to me how magic was comparable.

look at the stats bird was putting up. look at the teams they were on. teams were comparable, while bird was far more valuable.
magic was getting a lot of the attention drawn off himself playing with the number 1 player for quite some time, while bird filled that gap straight away on his team.

[StateOfMind12]

How does anyone think Magic is better? More rings? Yeah no surprise seeing as how he played with a top 5 player of all-time in Kareem while Birds best teammate McHale is probably top 40 all-time.

Are people really trying to use teammates to excuse why Bird was less successful than Magic? Bird was less successful than Magic because he wasn't as good of a playoff performer as Magic was and because he was not as durable as Magic was either.

Bird played with bad teammates? Yeah, of course.

Kevin McHale
Dennis Johnson
Tiny Archibad
Danny Ainge
Robert Parish
Bill Walton
Cedric Maxwell
Dave Cowens

These guys were pure trash and you have to be superman in order to win a title with those guys. :rolleyes:

This is like comparing Shaq's teammates to Duncan's teammates in the early 2000s. Bird had more depth on his team while Magic had the bigger star (Kareem).


I'm more than positive there were more Bird playoff failures/disappointments than there were Magic playoff failures/disappointments.

[Whoah10115]

Larry Bird was a better player when they first came into the league. But Magic didn't pass him when Bird's back started to give out. Magic got better as he got older and...wait for it...they came into the league the same season, but Larry Bird is 3 years older than Magic.


And I don't know about this far and away thing either. Far and away? Not really.

[eliteballer]

LOL. Magic had a better post game then Bird, and he was a better rebounder. Magic got almost as many rebounds playing the PG position as Bird did as a forward!!!

Bird was NOT as good a passer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCIIqvHPAII&t=2m49s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52hRqysi1Lo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltVjruFAkPc&t=1662

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM&t=0m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIGzoQt4jqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRdLLp0UAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCpHsPQ9mcA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCIIqvHPAII&t=2m10s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwVdRmLUoBA&feature=related

Magic was more versatile, because of his ballhandling ability and speed was better at breaking down defenses. Led the league in steals and was fine at guarding guys at or near his size, Bird couldnt guard ANYONE

Oh yeah, Magic was 3 YEARS YOUNGER and STILL outplayed PEAK Bird in 2 out of 3 Finals and 1 college championship.

Magic's stats in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old:

22 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 steals, 57% FG, 88% FT.

[wakencdukest]

Frankly I don't see how this is even a debate. Magic appears to be a shittier version of Bird.

-Bird has a better post game
-Bird is the better scorer overall
-Bird is an elite shooter while Magics shot is questionable at best
-Bird is the superior rebounder
-Bird is just as good of a passer, just doesn't hog the ball as much
-Bird is the better defender

How does anyone think Magic is better? More rings? Yeah no surprise seeing as how he played with a top 5 player of all-time in Kareem while Birds best teammate McHale is probably top 40 all-time.

Career Numbers/Production
Bird: 24.3 PPG 10.0 RPG 6.3 APG 49.6FG% 37.6 3PT% 1.7 SPG 0.8 BPG 3.1 TPG
Magic: 19.5 PPG 7.2 RPG 11.2 APG 52 FG% 30.1 3PT% 1.9 SPG 0.4 BPG 3.9 TPG

Primes
Bird: 28.7 PPG 10.5 RPG 6.6 APG 52.2FG% 42.7 3PT% 1.6 SPG 1.2 BPG 3.1 TPG
Magic: 23.4 PPG 6.3 RPG 12.2 APG 52.2FG% 20.5 3PT% 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TPG

Not to mention Birds Prime SHITS ON MAGICS and had it not been for late career injuries this comparison would be even more of a joke than it already is.

Dude you're 21 years old, you don't know shit about Bird or Magic.

-Magics post game was just as good as birds.
-Bird was the better all around scorer because he had a better perimeter Game.
-Bird was an elite shooter.
-Bird averaged 3 more rebounds per game, but Magic was averaging 7.2 rebs from the point guard position. He wasn't guarding people in the paint like Bird.
-Bird wasn't as good of a passer. He was good, but Magic set the standard for passing the ball and has never been matched IMO.
-Bird was considered a better defender, but think about this: if you put Bird out on the perimeter guarding quick little point guards he would have done no better than Magic.

As for that ball hogging statement; that shows me that you have no clue about anything. Magic was considered one of the most unselfish players in the history of the game, if not the most.

They were both great. I'm biased because I'm a Laker fan, so I tend to think Magic was a little better, but if someone told me Bird was a little better, I could accept that opinion. But if you try to tell me there's not even a debate, that Bird was just that much better, I'm going to tell you you don't know shit you little pissant.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Are people really trying to use teammates to excuse why Bird was less successful than Magic? Bird was less successful than Magic because he wasn't as good of a playoff performer as Magic was and because he was not as durable as Magic was either.

Bird played with bad teammates? Yeah, of course.

Kevin McHale
Dennis Johnson
Tiny Archibad
Danny Ainge
Robert Parish
Bill Walton
Cedric Maxwell
Dave Cowens

These guys were pure trash and you have to be superman in order to win a title with those guys. :rolleyes:

This is like comparing Shaq's teammates to Duncan's teammates in the early 2000s. Bird had more depth on his team while Magic had the bigger star (Kareem).


I'm more than positive there were more Bird playoff failures/disappointments than there were Magic playoff failures/disappointments.

How is Bird not as good of a playoff performer? His numbers are the same as his regular season career numbers, but with just a 2% dip in FG%. The same decrease that Magic had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3lAuohZvnE

Yeah dude, definitely a guy that disappeared in the clutch. In b4 kid doesn't even watch the video and posts more bullshit. Also in Magics early career he was called "Tragic Johnson" since he choked hardcore vs Bird and the Celtics in 1984. Bird lost, but he would never choke, and people knew he would come up in the tough situations.

Also I'd like to see the year Birds team featured all of those guys. Bird inherited a legit shitty team that was 29-53 and then took them to 61 wins and contender status AS A ROOKIE. Isn't Magic the same guy that pussied his way out of Chicago because the team wasn't talented enough and he wanted to play with Kareem who was probably the best player in the league at the time? LOL

[QUOTE] [B]Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How is Bird not as good of a playoff performer? His numbers are the same as his regular season career numbers, but with just a 2% dip in FG%. The same decrease that Magic had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3lAuohZvnE

Yeah dude, definitely a guy that disappeared in the clutch. In b4 kid doesn't even watch the video and posts more bullshit. Also in Magics early career he was called "Tragic Johnson" since he choked hardcore vs Bird and the Celtics in 1984. Bird lost, but he would never choke, and people knew he would come up in the tough situations.

Also I'd like to see the year Birds team featured all of those guys. Bird inherited a legit shitty team that was 29-53 and then took them to 61 wins and contender status AS A ROOKIE. Isn't Magic the same guy that pussied his way out of Chicago because the team wasn't talented enough and he wanted to play with Kareem who was probably the best player in the league at the time? LOL



LOL yep, imagine if Magic had to build a crap team from the groundup like Bird did.

Since you basically named every "known player" that Bird played with I'll do the same for Magic and we'll compare.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar(top 5 player all-time and was still the best player in the league Magic's rookie year)
Jamal Wilkes(had 37 points in the game 6 vs Philly, and scored anywhere from 18 PPG-22 PPG on 50% shooting. Magic had this guy for the first 6 years of his career, yet we never hear much about him)
Norm Nixon(another 17 PPG scoring guard Magic had for the first few years of his career, always shot a great percentage)
Michael Cooper(one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time)
Jim Chones(if your going to say Bird played with a near retired Cowens
for one year, this guy was better. 11-8 bigman)
Bob McAdoo(HOF bigman)
James Worthy(nuff said
Byron Scott(solidguard led the team in PPG for a few seasons)
AC Green(great rebounder, and defensive player, ironman of the nba)
Mychal Thompson(career 14-7 bigman)
Vlade Divac
Sam Perkins
Kurt Rambis

It should be noted that when Magic retired his team was still above .500 and in decent shape. Meanwhile when Bird retired it took the franchise 10 years to win another playoff series and about 16 years for them to become relevant with KG-Pierce-Allen. Lol @ acting like Birds cast was half as good as Magics. Good? Yes, but noone had more help than Magic did. Top 5 player of all-time still at the peak of his game LOL.
Yeah Magic had the better team, but it's not like he didn't win
Magic - 5 rings, 9 finals
Bird - 3 rings, 5 finals
Had the better team and won more, you can't use that against him :facepalm

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Dude you're 21 years old, you don't know shit about Bird or Magic.

-Magics post game was just as good as birds.
-Bird was the better all around scorer because he had a better perimeter Game.
-Bird was an elite shooter.
-Bird averaged 3 more rebounds per game, but Magic was averaging 7.2 rebs from the point guard position. He wasn't guarding people in the paint like Bird.
-Bird wasn't as good of a passer. He was good, but Magic set the standard for passing the ball and has never been matched IMO.
-Bird was considered a better defender, but think about this: if you put Bird out on the perimeter guarding quick little point guards he would have done no better than Magic.

As for that ball hogging statement; that shows me that you have no clue about anything. Magic was considered one of the most unselfish players in the history of the game, if not the most.

They were both great. I'm biased because I'm a Laker fan, so I tend to think Magic was a little better, but if someone told me Bird was a little better, I could accept that opinion. But if you try to tell me there's not even a debate, that Bird was just that much better, I'm going to tell you you don't know shit you little pissant.

Avatar: Lakers logo

Yeah nothing to see here, just another bias butthurt ******* LOL. The post games arn't even close. I've seen more than enough games to make this statement. Bird had mastered the step back jumper, the fadaway, and was stronger spinning around his man. Oh and the pumpfakes....yes the pumpfakes. What did Magic do in the post that is comparable to Bird?

You forget they were the same size. Magic didn't guard the quick point guards either. They would stick Cooper or someone on them so Magic could sit on some useless ****er and rest defensively. They had to hide him defensively. Bird wasn't shutting anyone down, but he was the best at reading plays before they happened and his superior anticpation made him a formidable defender. Birds rebounding has nothing to do with size/position since they played the same spot a lot on defense. He was just a grittier and tougher player while Magic was a ***** in comparisoin.

Bird made just as good passes as Magic. The difference is that Bird didn't pound the ball out of the shotclock with his useless bullshit dribbling that isn't necesary thus his passes weren't "as pretty". He wasn't nearly as ball dominant as Magic, but his passes from the post and on the break were just as good. Magics APG is just because he was so ball dominant.

Better scorer
Elite shooter vs guy with questionable jumpshot
Better defender
Similar passers
Better rebounder
More clutch

Yeah give me Bird 7/7 days a week.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Yeah Magic had the better team, but it's not like he didn't win
Magic - 5 rings, 9 finals
Bird - 3 rings, 5 finals
Had the better team and won more, you can't use that against him :facepalm

Which is the reason WHY he won more.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sN21iYYJ_Qs/TdsAaINlkGI/AAAAAAAAHwk/KkRzLXQIbiI/s1600/carlos-mencia.jpg

[Harison]

:roll:

That's a pretty definitive statement, and a false one.

That was overwhelming notion among majority of fans and experts. Lakers and Magic fans might disagree, but thats always the same with homers. Thats why Magic got zero MVPs while Bird was getting them year in and out, only when Larry started declining, Magic got his.

[Harison]

Oh, you mean when Magic came in the league and won Finals MVP, playing all 5 positions, and winning despite Kareem being injured?

Magic put up 42/15/7/3/1 in Game 6 to win the title. Take a while to soak in those numbers, then realize this was his rookie season.

Yea, no question that Magic came up big when it mattered the most.

One game yes, Magic was phenomenal. Do you realize it doesnt start and end with one game? Kareem was the true FMVP and Playoffs powerhouse, 31.9/12.1/3.1 >> 18.3/10.5/9.4.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Which is the reason WHY he won more.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sN21iYYJ_Qs/TdsAaINlkGI/AAAAAAAAHwk/KkRzLXQIbiI/s1600/carlos-mencia.jpg
He definitely wasn't the reason why they won or part of it, right? :facepalm

[StateOfMind12]

How is Bird not as good of a playoff performer? His numbers are the same as his regular season career numbers, but with just a 2% dip in FG%. The same decrease that Magic had.

Yeah dude, definitely a guy that disappeared in the clutch. In b4 kid doesn't even watch the video and posts more bullshit. Also in Magics early career he was called "Tragic Johnson" since he choked hardcore vs Bird and the Celtics in 1984. Bird lost, but he would never choke, and people knew he would come up in the tough situations.
Good job, you found one playoff disappointment and failure from Magic. How many do you want me to bring up for Bird? Here, have fun with this.



Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Also I'd like to see the year Birds team featured all of those guys. Bird inherited a legit shitty team that was 29-53 and then took them to 61 wins and contender status AS A ROOKIE. Isn't Magic the same guy that pussied his way out of Chicago because the team wasn't talented enough and he wanted to play with Kareem who was probably the best player in the league at the time? LOL
What does this have to do with anything? Magic made Kareem and everybody else on the Lakers better.




Since you basically named every "known player" that Bird played with I'll do the same for Magic and we'll compare.
All you posted was that they pretty much played with equal talent and equal teammates.

And if Bird is much superior to Magic then why was Bird not ever able to overcome Magic and the Lakers? I mean Bird is so much better than Magic and everybody else right, so why was he always so unsuccessful against them and had a less successful career than Magic did? The only Finals he beat Magic in was the Finals were Magic choked horribly.


Bird played with shitty teammates, you learn something new everyday.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

LOL. Magic had a better post game then Bird, and he was a better rebounder. Magic got almost as many rebounds playing the PG position as Bird did as a forward!!!

Bird was NOT as good a passer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCIIqvHPAII&t=2m49s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52hRqysi1Lo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltVjruFAkPc&t=1662

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM&t=0m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIGzoQt4jqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRdLLp0UAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCpHsPQ9mcA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCIIqvHPAII&t=2m10s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwVdRmLUoBA&feature=related

Magic was more versatile, because of his ballhandling ability and speed was better at breaking down defenses. Led the league in steals and was fine at guarding guys at or near his size, Bird couldnt guard ANYONE

Oh yeah, Magic was 3 YEARS YOUNGER and STILL outplayed PEAK Bird in 2 out of 3 Finals and 1 college championship.

Magic's stats in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old:

22 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 steals, 57% FG, 88% FT.

Half of you links don't even work. Might want to stop copy and pasting posts and formulate your own opinions buddy.

Lol @ Magic the better defender. Based on what? Steals? LOL their SPG were nearly identical. Birds defense was superior as was his IQ. He wasn't going to beat guys with his footspeed, but with his mind and he often did getting his fingers on balls all over the place. Magic is known as a a shitty defensive player. Have you ever even watched them play?

Lol @ comparing college basketball championship. Because most of Birds team other than himself was a bunch of walk on nobodies? Bird was playing center because his team was just a bunch of random dudes. Magic was on a team that featured two other guys that would eventually make the NBA and juts a much superior roster overall.

[wakencdukest]

"Bird made just as good passes as Magic. The difference is that Bird didn't pound the ball out of the shotclock with his useless bullshit dribbling that isn't necesary thus his passes weren't "as pretty". He wasn't nearly as ball dominant as Magic, but his passes from the post and on the break were just as good. Magics APG is just because he was so ball dominant."


You are so full of crap. What, because you watched a couple of old games you think you can analyze the Games of Magic and Bird. Of course you are dead wrong again, Magic was looking to pass from the time he touched the ball. He wasn't standing around dribbling through his legs and trying to cross people over like the point guards of today. He was always looking for the pass, which is what you want from a point guard, which was why they had such balanced scoring, which was why they always won. What you don't understand is that Magic could control a game without even scoring a point, something that 20 year old stats aren't going to tell you. Grow up and stop making statements about things you don't know.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Good job, you found one playoff disappointment and failure from Magic. How many do you want me to bring up for Bird? Here, have fun with this.


All that long ass copy and paste post tells me is that the Celtics lost when Bird struggled. Such is life with only one real superstar.


What does this have to do with anything? Magic made Kareem and everybody else on the Lakers better.

Where did I say he didn't? Noone is saying Magic blew, he's just not as good as Bird. Best point guard of all-time though. What does this have to do anything? It's proof of the fact that Bird had less talent than Kareem. Magic pulled a Kobe and only went to LA because it was a great market and had the best player in the league at the time.



All you posted was that they pretty much played with equal talent and equal teammates.


Lol @ best player in the league Kareem being comparable to any combination of players on Boston. Worthy alone is better than anyone not named McHale and then we're going to bring Kareem into the discussion? LOL. Players you mentioned like Ainge/Cowens were worse than any player I listed as a Magic Johnson teammate during the years they played with them. Bird didn't have prime Cowen, but Cowen on one leg.


And if Bird is much superior to Magic then why was Bird not ever able to overcome Magic and the Lakers? I mean Bird is so much better than Magic and everybody else right, so why was he always so unsuccessful against them and had a less successful career than Magic did? The only Finals he beat Magic in was the Finals were Magic choked horribly.

Because two top ten players of all-time > 1. Considering the circumstances 1-2 in the Finals isn't a horrible record.



Bird played with shitty teammates, you learn something new everyday.

Not shitty, they were quite good. Magic had the GOAT supporting cast though.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

"Bird made just as good passes as Magic. The difference is that Bird didn't pound the ball out of the shotclock with his useless bullshit dribbling that isn't necesary thus his passes weren't "as pretty". He wasn't nearly as ball dominant as Magic, but his passes from the post and on the break were just as good. Magics APG is just because he was so ball dominant."


You are so full of crap. What, because you watched a couple of old games you think you can analyze the Games of Magic and Bird. Of course you are dead wrong again, Magic was looking to pass from the time he touched the ball. He wasn't standing around dribbling through his legs and trying to cross people over like the point guards of today. He was always looking for the pass, which is what you want from a point guard, which was why they had such balanced scoring, which was why they always won. What you don't understand is that Magic could control a game without even scoring a point, something that 20 year old stats aren't going to tell you. Grow up and stop making statements about things you don't know.

Yeah Bird was capable of every pass that Magic did so I don't care and he proved it by being the best passing forward of all-time. Magic was good, but stick John Stockton on those Laker teams and they'd be just as good. Yet noone would ever dare bring Stockton into conversations with these guys. Magic is overrated because he won on stacked teams. In terms of actual play, Bird is head and shoulders above him. Passing is the only argument Magic has. It's a joke. Go jerk off to your Magic/Kobe posters now and try convincing us that these rapists and HIV carriers are gods gift to the world.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Magic is top 3 of all time, Bird is top 6 or 7. Enough said.

[StateOfMind12]

All that long ass copy and paste post tells me is that the Celtics lost when Bird struggled. Such is life with only one real superstar.
Same thing happened with Magic in the 1984 Finals and you have yet to find me other disappointments or failures from Magic in the post-season.


Because two top ten players of all-time > 1. Considering the circumstances 1-2 in the Finals isn't a horrible record.
Really? So is Duncan better than Shaq now? I mean after all, Duncan played with another top 10 player of all-time in Kobe and another top 20 player of all-time and climbing with Dwyane Wade in his four championships. Duncan never even played with a top 50 player outside of David Robinson who was clearly past his prime.

Duncan > Shaq? :confusedshrug:


Lol @ best player in the league Kareem being comparable to any combination of players on Boston. Worthy alone is better than anyone not named McHale and then we're going to bring Kareem into the discussion? LOL. Players you mentioned like Ainge/Cowens were worse than any player I listed as a Magic Johnson teammate during the years they played with them. Bird didn't have prime Cowen, but Cowen on one leg.
Kareem was practically past his prime in LA with Magic so it's not that valid. He may have had one year as the best player in the league with Magic and the Lakers (Magic's first championship) but outside of that it was usually Magic's team.

Teammates are no excuse for either unless you want to talk about how Magic's 2nd best player was better than Bird's but in that case that means Duncan is better than Shaq since Shaq's 2nd best player was far superior than any 2nd best player Duncan played with

[wakencdukest]

Yeah Bird was capable of every pass that Magic did so I don't care and he proved it by being the best passing forward of all-time. Magic was good, but stick John Stockton on those Laker teams and they'd be just as good. Yet noone would ever dare bring Stockton into conversations with these guys. Magic is overrated because he won on stacked teams. In terms of actual play, Bird is head and shoulders above him. Passing is the only argument Magic has. It's a joke. Go jerk off to your Magic/Kobe posters now and try convincing us that these rapists and HIV carriers are gods gift to the world.



Yeah little man, keep keep trying to convince people you know something. Hell you probably think you know something about Jordan too, right? How long have you been watching Basketball? Hey, if you go back to the NBA forum there's a Bird vs Dirk debate going on. Why don't you go in there and stun them with your knowledge.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Magic got almost as many rebounds playing the PG position as Bird did as a forward!!!

This is not even close to being true. Bird's rebounds per game and TRB% from '80-'88:

10.4 (16.0 TRB%)
10.9 (15.7 TRB%)
10.9 (15.8 TRB%)
11.0 (15.7 TRB%)
10.1 (14.9 TRB%)
10.5 (14.7 TRB%)
9.8 (14.2 TRB%)
9.2 (12.8 TRB%)
9.3 (14.0 TRB%)

...all while playing with a terrific rebounding front-line in McHale and Parish. His numbers would have been even better otherwise. Bird outrebounded prime Moses Malone in a playoff series, for crying out loud! Now here are Magic's numbers for his first 9 seasons:

7.7 (11.6 TRB%)
8.6 (12.7 TRB%)
9.6 (13.7 TRB%)
8.6 (13.0 TRB%)
7.3 (10.8 TRB%)
6.2 (9.7 TRB%)
5.9 (9.4 TRB%)
6.3 (9.7 TRB%)
6.2 (9.7 TRB%)

...while playing with worse rebounders on average. Notice anything different? Magic wasn't really close to Bird as a rebounder. At all.

[Champ]

They were both phenomenal players. Choosing who is better is a matter of quibbling -- and very subjective quibbling at that.

Some of the above comments are interesting, and unfortunately fall victim to biased fandom. This is not an easy argument; there is no clear choice. If you think so, they you either don't understand the game all that well or you've failed to witness enough of these greats' careers.

Those who've said that Bird was initially considered the better player are correct. Those who can remember will recall that was the language of the day, at least up until the '86-'87 season. Until that season it was Bird garnering the majority of national press, individual accolades and GOAT considerations, of which magic simply wasn't a part of the conversation yet.

Things began to shift slightly on the heels of Magic's terrific '86-87 season, but Bird was still in his prime, albeit slipping slightly due to his and his teammates' age and the unfortunate fate of his franchise (read, the loss of L. Bias). None of this was Magic's fault, of course, and he simply continued to play phenomenal basketball irrespective of the Celtics misfortunes.

After the '87-'88 season, Bird's heel and back woes reduced him to a shell of his former self, even though he continued to perform brilliantly in spurts. Magic, on the other hand, continued to improve, win and rack up MVP awards, eventually pulling even with Bird in that category. The end result was that Magic was able to tally career numbers that now stack up favorably to Bird's, in no small part to Bird's late-period decline. But for their first 7 seasons in the league together, Bird held the clear advantage.

Had Bird remained healthy and the Celtics able to rebuild around Bias, who knows what would've happened, or how it would affect this debate?

But as it stands, my gut tells me that Bird had the better peak, and Magic the better career. So who was the better player, then? As I said, it's a very tough call.

As for individual skills, many categories are a toss-up IMO.

Bird was the better shooter and scorer.

They were both excellent rebounders for their positions. I would say Bird was better for a SF (than Magic was for a PG) earlier in his career because he was a ferocious offensive rebounder in addition to his always steady defensive rebounding. But he declined slowly in this area as his overall aggressiveness was consciously parred down while his playing style became more refined and adverse to risk (relatively speaking!).

Both had excellent defensive anticipation and Magic was a great ball-hawk, but Bird was the better all-around defender, and got the most out of his physical ability through guile and positioning, which is why he was such a good team defender.

Magic was clearly the better ball handler, though Bird remains puzzlingly underrated in this regard.

Magic usually gets the passing nod, but in my view, they rank 1 and 1A, respectively. I still think Bird's the greatest passer ever out of the half-court set. He had incredible instincts and hands, and was a phenomenal inbound and outlet passer. Magic remains the game's greatest creator and open court passer; his court vision was unparalleled.

Both players were very clutch, despite the nonsense mentioned above that really skews Bird's playoff record. Of course you're going to lose some playoff series at home when you play virtually every one with HCA.

Both were great leaders who transformed the game with their passion and unselfish play. Bird's on-court personality probably exuded more fire, while Magic was better at rallying his teammates through his infectious energy. Overall, Magic was probably the better leader. Tough call, though.

To those on the fence - especially the youngsters - I recommend watching as many game clips as possible, and then decide for yourselves. Your eyes will be a much better marker than the cherry-picked stats listed above.

You'll also witness some beautiful basketball of the variety that's unfortunately not seen very much these days.

[LBJMVP]

picture if bird's back was 100% percent his whole career...

i'd take bird.

[eliteballer]

Magic 3 years younger and absolutely crapped on Bird in 2 out of 3 Finals, and Magic never had the same spryness after his knee injury in 81. More versatile, more efficient.

[jlauber]

"Tragic" Johnson's numbers in the '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out a series high 13.6 apg, and shot .541 from the floor (BTW, Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481 in that series.)

And "Big Game" James Worthy single-handedly cost LA game two with an ill-advised cross-court pass (with Magic standing right next to him) that led to a tying basket, and an eventual Celtic win.

Granted, BOTH Magic and Worthy missed crucial FTs late in game four, which allowed Boston to sneak into an OT win.

Kareem then shot 7-25 in game five loss.

"Tragic" Johnson. Yep, what a disgraceful series...

and probably one of the all-around greatest Finals performances in NBA history!

[bwink23]

:roll:

That's a pretty definitive statement, and a false one.


The NBA saw it fit to give Bird 3 consecutive MVP's over Magic.

:confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

I find it funny people are mentioning tragic John.son because of one playoffs. That one playoffs wasn't even that bad anyways. Bird had plenty of years choking his ass in the playoffs

[juju151111]

"Tragic" Johnson's numbers in the '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out a series high 13.6 apg, and shot .541 from the floor (BTW, Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481 in that series.)

And "Big Game" James Worthy single-handedly cost LA game two with an ill-advised cross-court pass (with Magic standing right next to him) that led to a tying basket, and an eventual Celtic win.

Granted, BOTH Magic and Worthy missed crucial FTs late in game four, which allowed Boston to sneak into an OT win.

Kareem then shot 7-25 in game five loss.

"Tragic" Johnson. Yep, what a disgraceful series...

and probably one of the all-around greatest Finals performances in NBA history!
Exactly :applause: lets not pretend Magic pulled a lebrick James here. Magic showed up, but they still lose.

[OldSchoolBBall]

"Tragic" Johnson's numbers in the '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out a series high 13.6 apg, and shot .541 from the floor (BTW, Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481 in that series.)

And "Big Game" James Worthy single-handedly cost LA game two with an ill-advised cross-court pass (with Magic standing right next to him) that led to a tying basket, and an eventual Celtic win.

Granted, BOTH Magic and Worthy missed crucial FTs late in game four, which allowed Boston to sneak into an OT win.

Kareem then shot 7-25 in game five loss.

"Tragic" Johnson. Yep, what a disgraceful series...

and probably one of the all-around greatest Finals performances in NBA history!

Sports Illustrated seems to disagree, and elaborates on the frequent instances of choking/underperforming by Magic in that series and postseason:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122425/index.htm

[juju151111]

Sports Illustrated seems to disagree, and elaborates on the frequent instances of choking/underperforming by Magic in that series and postseason:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122425/index.htm
Wat? They sited only two Two series and one of them he was injured most of the series. Lol your full of shit. Magic made just has much clutch shots throughout his career

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Same thing happened with Magic in the 1984 Finals and you have yet to find me other disappointments or failures from Magic in the post-season.


In 1981 as the defending champions, the Lakers lost in the first round with home court advantage to a sub .500 Rockets team. Magic shot 38% for the series. I am not implying Magic is a bad postseason performer, but neither is Bird and for the entire duration of their careers both of them have a relatively equal per game average for their playoffs as opposed to regular season. The post you copy and pasted is merely some guy nitpicking choosing what statistics benefit him in his attempt to try and undervalue Bird.


Really? So is Duncan better than Shaq now? I mean after all, Duncan played with another top 10 player of all-time in Kobe and another top 20 player of all-time and climbing with Dwyane Wade in his four championships. Duncan never even played with a top 50 player outside of David Robinson who was clearly past his prime.

Duncan > Shaq?

Magics cast is better from top to bottom. With Shaq-Duncan, Shaq possess definetly the third best player in this analysis in Kobe. However the Spurs probably have the next 4 or however many best guys. I don't think any teammate from Shaqs 00 Lakers is on grounds with David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Bruce Bowen.

In this comparison Magic possess the superior 2nd option, AND 3rd option. Birds Celtics do not possess the depth advantage that Duncans Spurs had compared to Shaq/Magic. Magic has played with countless guys capable of putting up 20 PPG. That compiarson is invalid where as with the 00 Lakers it was Shaq/Kobe and the rest are below average role players. With the 80s Lakers its Kareem/Magic/Norm Nixon/Jamal Wilkes/Cooper/Rambis and then they pick up some hal of famers in James Worthy/McAdoo and Byron Scott who averaged 20 PPG with the team. Those 80 Laker teams had more depth AND starpower than Birds Celtics.


Kareem was practically past his prime in LA with Magic so it's not that valid. He may have had one year as the best player in the league with Magic and the Lakers (Magic's first championship) but outside of that it was usually Magic's team.


No question Magic was the best player overall for the decade, but Kareem was playing at a VERY high level. He was top 5 in MVP vote getting every year and pretty much a top 5 player in the league overall until around 1986. During Magics first years he is arguably the best in the league at the time. Kareem wasn't as good as he was ten years prior, but there was still only a handful(meaning you could only count them on one hand) players better in the league. Mchale(except for 87) or anyone else was ever on a level like that.

[Pushxx]

Magic by a hair.

[Micku]

I find it funny people are mentioning tragic John.son because of one playoffs. That one playoffs wasn't even that bad anyways. Bird had plenty of years choking his ass in the playoffs

There's a difference at that time. In 1984 and before, the Lakers had more talent than the Celtics with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkins, and Bob McAdoo. Magic completed them and made the Lakers more awesome.

Bird didn't have the luxury of playing with a MVP candidate/possibly GOAT center/the best center at that time with Kareem. Plus Bird was better than Magic earlier on, and was the best player on his team from the start unlike Magic.

Compare and contrast their roster: With the Celtics Bird is their best player. Then after that it's either Parish or Maxwell. With the Lakers Kareem is their best player in the early 80s. Then Magic. Then Wilkins/Worthy. There's an instant drop of the 2nd option of the Celts than the 2nd option of the Lakers. Including third too.

When the Lakers and Magic was choking in the clutch in the 1984 finals, it was a huge deal. Especially with the Magic vs Bird deal. And Bird hit a gamewinning shot on Magic too in that series. The Celtics shouldn't won that series against the Lakers.

Starting from 1985, whenever Kevin Mchale started to become more star worthy, they didn't have that much of an excuse of losing. They were more prepared to face the Lakers in 1985 as oppose to 1984, but they lost anyway. They were more injury prone than the Lakers, and Bird to this day felt it was one of the reasons why they lost in the 1987 finals since most of their roster was injured. Mchale with a broken foot, Parish messed up ankle, and etc. But that's no excuse either since that's also a part of the game.

But Bird did made it to the finals 5 times in the 80s. 4 straight times. All of his loses were against the Lakers. Some of his loses earlier were either by the 76ers or upsets. They failed post 1987 though.

But yeah, Magic has a more successful career than Bird. Better playoff success. Bird probably had the better peak, but there's room for debate.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

"Tragic" Johnson's numbers in the '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out a series high 13.6 apg, and shot .541 from the floor (BTW, Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481 in that series.)

And "Big Game" James Worthy single-handedly cost LA game two with an ill-advised cross-court pass (with Magic standing right next to him) that led to a tying basket, and an eventual Celtic win.

Granted, BOTH Magic and Worthy missed crucial FTs late in game four, which allowed Boston to sneak into an OT win.

Kareem then shot 7-25 in game five loss.

"Tragic" Johnson. Yep, what a disgraceful series...

and probably one of the all-around greatest Finals performances in NBA history!

The nickname refers to how he gave the games away at the end. If you were to look at simply the stats you would think LeBron had a decent series last year vs the Mavs. The numbers are not bad. However anyone that watched the games knows what happened.

Its the same situation here. In Game 2 he dribbled the ball on a final possession not even getting a shot off because he was overdribbling. Lakers lose in overtime. In Game 4 he turns the ball over at the end of regulation throwinga lollypop pass to Worthy. They go on to lose in OT as well. He then misses BOTH freethrows in the OT period of that game to lose. In game 7 Magic has two crucial turnovers in the final minutes that ultimately cost yet another game. 3 Boston wins could have been averted had Magic not choked in that Finals series. They had the better team, but his clutch play was just not good enough.

[eliteballer]

Magic came into the league at 20. 3 years younger than Bird. He was all of 24 and a 2 time champion in that 84 series. LA should have won, but no one plays great in every series.

Yet lets all forget Boston losing to Milwaukee in 82....

As for Bird's MVP's. Let's be honest. The media votes on MVP and while a great, MVP level player. A lot of his PEAK hype has to do with the fact that he was playing on the East Coast and he was white. Magic was outplaying him at his peak in the Finals, and Magic wasnt even at HIS peak yet.

[eliteballer]

You guys dont appreciate how GOOD Magic was. He literally had Jordan and Pippens heads spinning with his passes in that 91 series and NEITHER could guard him. He abused Jordan down low and he routinely got past Pippen but the BUlls help D was there and he didnt have the legs of his youth. Just because they show more of Bird these days on ESPN classic you guys think Magic isnt worthy of being on that level

Here are some examples of MAGIC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ5j2M70uro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdklgmtiG-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto

[Micku]

Magic came into the league at 20. 3 years younger than Bird. He was all of 24 and a 2 time champion in that 84 series. LA should have won, but no one plays great in every series.

Yet lets all forget Boston losing to Milwaukee in 82....

As for Bird's MVP's. Let's be honest. The media votes on MVP and while a great, MVP level player. A lot of his PEAK hype has to do with the fact that he was playing on the East Coast and he was white. Magic was outplaying him at his peak in the Finals, and Magic wasnt even at HIS peak yet.

And the Lakers lost to the Rockets in 81 in the first round. The same team that the Celtics beat, with less talent on his team.

It goes both ways. But Magic was a great player in his own right, so it's very close and you can argue either or. Magic is a very hard person to guard, and is the GOAT PG. Magic was more efficient than Bird too.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

What's better, a Ferrari or a Lamborgini? They are both amazing, dominant legends. They had different roles so it's hard to compare then apples to apples.

Bird was a God. Greatest shooter ever. Great rebounder and playmaker. Clutch, great leader. Baddest white dude who ever lived.

Magic was the greatest PG ever. Insane court vision and instincts. Deadly post game. Developed in to a great shooter later on. He didn't have the injuries so he had better longevity, he won 2 more rings and was 3-1 against Bird in title games when you include college. In 84 the Lakers choked the series away and still almost won in game 7. Magic was close to being 4-0 on Bird.

I love both of these guys. I still watch their games on dvd all the time.

[Shepseskaf]

The Magic vs. Bird debate is pointless. Both have passionate supporters who's opinions won't change on which player was better, no matter what.

I think that Magic deserves to be rated higher, as most all-time lists have it, though I can certainly see how it could be argued the other way.

[iDefend5]

Peak: Bird
Prime: Toss-up
Career: Magic

[KevinNYC]

By the way, they are #3 and #4 in terms of MVP shares for their careers

Magic
MVP Award Shares
1980-81 NBA 0.026 (11)
1981-82 NBA 0.097 (8) (only played 37 games)
1982-83 NBA 0.406 (3)
1983-84 NBA 0.401 (3)
1984-85 NBA 0.338 (2)
1985-86 NBA 0.263 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.964 (1)
1987-88 NBA 0.635 (3)
1988-89 NBA 0.782 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.691 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.518 (2)
1995-96 NBA 0.007 (12)
Career 5.129 (4)

MVP Award Shares
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1)
1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 (only played 6 games)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)
Career 5.693 (3)

I think for the first parts of their careers Bird was the better player. He was also three years older. Magic became truly great when he developed a better outside shot. If you look at years in bold above, they both enjoyed a 9 year run from age 23 to 31 when they were always one the top 3 players in the league. The only exception is Bird's rookie year when he was 4th.



A couple of notes on other things posted on this thread.

Celtics lost to the Sixers in 1982. They lost to the Bucks in 1983. The Bucks were the second best team that year behind the dominant Sixers. They were the only team to beat the Sixers in the playoffs as the Philly went 12-1. The Bucks lost another game to them by 2.

I noted this elsewhere, but Larry Bird did not have a bad finals in 1981. He definitely had a couple of really bad shooting games and ended up with a FG% of .419
but he was massive on the boards and averaged (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1981_finals.html)
15.3p 15.3r 7.0a 2.3s
Try to find another player with those numbers in a Finals in the last 40 years. His coach was surprised when didn't win finals MVP.
When you look at each game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_NBA_Finals) you see his contribution

Game 1 he led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists
Game 2 he led the Celtics in points and rebounds
Game 3 he led the Celtics in rebounds and assists
Game 4 he led the Celtics in assists
Game 5 he led the Celtics in assists
Game 6 he led the Celtics in points and rebounds

When Bird joined the Celtics it wasn't a complete rebuild, the other top 4 scorers and their top 7 scorer were there the year before. Also joining the team were M. L Carr, Gerald Henderson and Pete Maravich in his last year. They also got a much better year out of Tiny Archibald who the previous year averaged career lows in points and scoring of 11 points and under 5 assists. The next year he had 14 and 8.5 and his FG% went up. Also Bill Fitch who is a great coach joined the team, the previous year Cowens was acting as player coach.

Dave Cowens never played on any of Bird's great teams. He was there for Bird's rookie year and then retired. He never played with Parish or McHale.

Fun fact: for his rookie year Larry Bird's averages per game and his averages per 36 minutes are exactly the same.

[juju151111]

And the Lakers lost to the Rockets in 81 in the first round. The same team that the Celtics beat, with less talent on his team.

It goes both ways. But Magic was a great player in his own right, so it's very close and you can argue either or. Magic is a very hard person to guard, and is the GOAT PG. Magic was more efficient than Bird too.
Magic injured year. Just like Bird fans don't want anyone to use a season pass 87. 81 Magic was out 100 days

[Psileas]

In 1981 as the defending champions, the Lakers lost in the first round with home court advantage to a sub .500 Rockets team. Magic shot 38% for the series. I am not implying Magic is a bad postseason performer, but neither is Bird and for the entire duration of their careers both of them have a relatively equal per game average for their playoffs as opposed to regular season. The post you copy and pasted is merely some guy nitpicking choosing what statistics benefit him in his attempt to try and undervalue Bird.

Nitpicking? Says the guy who tried to claim that Bird would never choke in the playoffs, by, no surprise, nitpicking through contrasting with a best of 3 series (young/prime Magic's worst series by far) and a series when Magic played great all-around ball, but failed in the clutch. You even came up with McHale's "Tragic Johnson" quote (more nitpicking, taking a quote of a specific player and attributing it to "people"/"fans" in general - it did become more popular for a short time, but it weren't people in general that came up with it). Then followed a post that completely nullified the supposed "Bird never choked" myth, which you tried to disregard by using excuses like "it only shows the Celtics lost when Bird played bad", which sounds a lot better than "it only shows that Bird also choked".

[Psileas]

Oh, and Magic did not surpass Bird when Bird started getting injury problems. Bird's 1987 regular season easily ranks among his finest, and Magic still easily won the MVP. It wasn't the first season when Magic overall performed better, but various factors like Kareem's presence or Magic's fading popularity in 1981 and early 1982 were convincing people that Bird was better night in and night out in their first 7 years in the league.

[jlauber]

Oh, and Magic did not surpass Bird when Bird started getting injury problems. Bird's 1987 regular season easily ranks among his finest, and Magic still easily won the MVP. It wasn't the first season when Magic overall performed better, but various factors like Kareem's presence or Magic's fading popularity in 1981 and early 1982 were convincing people that Bird was better night in and night out in their first 7 years in the league.

:applause:

I have long maintained that Magic was ROBBED of an MVP in his 81-82 season. He averaged a near triple-double, in a season in which he SHARED his PG duties, and then duplicated those numbers in the post-season, en route to running away with his second Finals MVP.

Kareem took votes away from Magic in the first half of Magic's career, (even though Magic outvoted Kareem in all of their last eight seasons in the NBA together.)

And it is truly LAUGHABLE that Magic was labeled "Tragic" in a Finals in which he averaged 18-8-14 and shot .560, which was nearly a 100 points higher than Bird and Kareem shot. And in the two games that Magic supposedly "choked" (not counting game seven when Bird was just as crappy), Magic 23.5 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 13.0 apg, and shot, get this, .692 from the floor. IMHO, MAGIC was the BEST player on the floor in the '84 Finals. "Tragic" Johnson...what a complete JOKE.

[OldSchoolBBall]

And it is truly LAUGHABLE that Magic was labeled "Tragic" in a Finals in which he averaged 18-8-14 and shot .560, which was nearly a 100 points higher than Bird and Kareem shot. And in the two games that Magic supposedly "choked" (not counting game seven when Bird was just as crappy), Magic 23.5 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 13.0 apg, and shot, get this, .692 from the floor. IMHO, MAGIC was the BEST player on the floor in the '84 Finals. "Tragic" Johnson...what a complete JOKE.

This is why he earned the "Tragic Johnson" moniker:

[quote=Sports Illustrated]Late in games during the championship series, the CBS announcing team would make the obligatory comments about how players like Magic love such moments. Yet, time and time again, we saw evidence of Magic's distaste for them.

Game Two: Magic becomes catatonic with the ball on the wing, dribbling out the last 10 seconds of regulation while ostensibly looking for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the low post. L.A. doesn't even get off a final shot in a game it will lose in overtime.

Game Four: The Lakers bollix up a chance to win on their last possession in regulation when Robert Parish intercepts Magic's pass to James Worthy. L.A. loses in OT again

[jlauber]

This is why he earned the "Tragic Johnson" moniker:



You can put up fantastic numbers, but if you epic fail in the clutch this many times in one series, often with inexplicably bad plays, that will bring scrutiny upon any great player.

Once again, you are overlooking the numbers from those two games. 23.5 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 13.0 apg, and an incredible .692 from the field.

How about the MVP Bird in that series? In a solid game one loss, he goes 7-17 from the floor. In that game two OT WIN, he shot 8-22 from the floor.

In a game three blowout loss, 137-104, he puts up very good numbers (30 points on 9-16 shooting.)

In the game four OT WIN, he shoots a horrible 9-24 from the floor. With the score tied at 113-113 in regulation, he misses a shot with 4 secs left that would have won the game.

He does play brilliantly in a game five solid win, with 34 points on 15-20 shooting (interesting that his best games came in blowouts, whether they be wins or losses...and his worst games in close wins.)

In a solid game six loss, Bird once again has a very good game, scoring 28 points on 8-11 shooting (see the pattern here.)

And in game seven, while everyone was blaming Magic, Bird quietly goes 6-18 from the floor.

Granted Bird rebounded well, BUT, so did Magic (again, he LED LA in rebounding), and Magic was brilliant with 13.6 apg.

And the reality was, had Worthy, who also played exceptionally well (11-12 from the floor) in game two, just handed the ball to Magic, the Lakers would have won that series in six games. And had he not missed a FT late in game four, (and Magic missed two), the Lakers would have SWEPT Boston.

Oh, and BTW, how about Kareem in game five? 7-25 shooting and pounded by Parish on the glass, 12-7.

Of course, everyone knows that Magic hit that "baby hook" in Boston, to win game four of the '87 Finals, but how many are aware that Bird missed an open shot at the buzzer that would have won the game for Boston.

Or that Bird shot .488, .449 and .445 in his three Finals against LA.

[Micku]

Magic injured year. Just like Bird fans don't want anyone to use a season pass 87. 81 Magic was out 100 days

Bird was also injured in 83 when they got swept by the Bucks. Plus most of the team revolted against coach Fitch:



"No one listens when you yell," Parish said. "K.C.'s a players' coach. He knows when to let up. And he takes suggestions. He doesn't yell much, but when he does, sometimes you want to leave the room.

http://articles.philly.com/1986-05-30/sports/26049847_1_bill-fitch-discipline-celtics-coach/2

With that said, I can understand why Magic would be considered better than Bird. Magic was more efficient, had more success in the playoffs, and less injury prone. And I could understand Bird being better than Magic, seeing how far he took the Celts in the early 80s, being more skilled and having the better peak possibly, and was the man since day one.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Once again, you are overlooking the numbers from those two games. 23.5 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 13.0 apg, and an incredible .692 from the field.

You're not understanding that he didn't earn the "Tragic Johnson" tag due to his OVERALL play in the series, but due to his play IN THE CLUTCH. Look at how much Lebron is vilified nowadays for much the same reason - and he didn't/doesn't (generally) even mess up in the clutch, he just becomes passive. Magic made 4-5 costly errors/missed shots in clutch moments of one Finals series. Any superstar would be derided for that, rightly or wrongly.

[juju151111]

You're not understanding that he didn't earn the "Tragic Johnson" tag due to his OVERALL play in the series, but due to his play IN THE CLUTCH. Look at how much Lebron is vilified nowadays for much the same reason - and he didn't/doesn't (generally) even mess up in the clutch, he just becomes passive. Magic made 4-5 costly errors/missed shots in clutch moments of one Finals series. Any superstar would be derided for that, rightly or wrongly.
LJ got heat because he played like garbage the whole not just in the clutch.

[Champ]

:applause:

I have long maintained that Magic was ROBBED of an MVP in his 81-82 season. He averaged a near triple-double, in a season in which he SHARED his PG duties, and then duplicated those numbers in the post-season, en route to running away with his second Finals MVP.

Kareem took votes away from Magic in the first half of Magic's career, (even though Magic outvoted Kareem in all of their last eight seasons in the NBA together.)

You could just as easily argue that Bird was robbed in the 80-81 season.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Magic was ballin outta control in 1982. 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.7 spg. Finals MVP. Lord have mercy.

[Hoopz2332]

I find it funny people are mentioning tragic John.son because of one playoffs. That one playoffs wasn't even that bad anyways. Bird had plenty of years choking his ass in the playoffs


all of a sudden people are acting like Bird never laid eggs in the playoffs:oldlol:

[colts19]

Oh, you mean when Magic came in the league and won Finals MVP, playing all 5 positions, and winning despite Kareem being injured?

Magic put up 42/15/7/3/1 in Game 6 to win the title. Take a while to soak in those numbers, then realize this was his rookie season.

Yea, no question that Magic came up big when it mattered the most.

Yea and Bird won rookie of the year vote 63 to 3. Bird was considered the better player through their first 7 or 8 years.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird. Better defensively. Comparable passer without needing ball in his hands. Definitely tougher.

[Round Mound]

Similar to the Charles Barkley vs Karl Malone threads since both Bird and Chuck where Better Before Injuries. Barkley had a Better Peak and Malone had a Better Career. Chuck was Better from 85 to 95 and Malone was Better from 96 to 00. Bird was Better From 79 to 86, Magic Was Better From 87 to 92.