Would you rather play with Pippen and Rodman or Wade and Bosh?

[eliteballer]

Get at me homies:confusedshrug:

[PJR]

Depends who the number one guy is....

[bdreason]

Gimme Pippen and Wade.

[Inactive]

Wade, and Bosh.

If I was actually good at basketball, I would take Pippen, and Rodman.

[hkfosho]

Wade, and Bosh.

If I was actually good at basketball, I would take Pippen, and Rodman.

/sizzled

[blablabla]

Pippen and Rodman
Wade and Bosh are two biggiest ******* in the modern nba why would i want to play with them

[rodman91]

Pippen & Rodman of course. I'm a Bulls fan.

But i play for winning...Wade & Bosh. I'm not good at basketball, if i can give ball to them all the time, Wade alone can score more than Pippen & Rodman combined.

[b1imtf]

Rodman. Party all day :rockon:

[jlip]

If I'm a scorer, Pippen and Rodman are better complimentary pieces to me. Their games fit the team's puzzle better, and they are able to dominate without interfering with what I do best, and that's score.

[nightprowler10]

Wade, and Bosh.

If I was actually good at basketball, I would take Pippen, and Rodman.
Ouch.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Wade, and Bosh.

If I was actually good at basketball, I would take Pippen, and Rodman.
Boom, roasted.

[PrimeJohnnyDepp]

On 2k12, i play at SF with Rodman, Mutombo, Joe Johnson and Rubio. Hall of fame setting, Mutombo blocks and takes risks, Rodman rebounds, just the best team i ever had, http://froyonation.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/yes-you-can-meme.jpg

Then i see the more i enjoy fiction, the more i fail at real life.


But yea, Rodman and me. Pals. Hard, hard bromance.

[DKLaker]

Pippen and Rodman
Wade and Bosh are two biggiest ******* in the modern nba why would i want to play with them


:cheers:

[jstern]

Pippen and Rodman, but only to play with Rodman.

3 against two. We would win.

[Lebron23]

I rather play with Gasol and Bynum. I am gonna lead the NBA in shot jacking per game.

[eliteballer]

shotjacking your way to 5 titles or crumpling to underdogs 4 straight years in the playoffs?

[vert48]

Pippen and Rodman, and it is not close.

[SwooshReturns]

shotjacking your way to 5 titles or crumpling to underdogs 4 straight years in the playoffs?
All kinds of BURN right there, kiddies.

Get at me on twitter u generational, skinny jeans, LeBron / Drake loving, snap back homos#

[rodman91]

Rodman. Party all day :rockon:

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Denis+Rodman+Attends+SupermartXe+Party+Madrid+u70U tTm_ul4l.jpg

/thread

[Bigsmoke]

Wade is basically a 1st option for a champion team.... and thats your sidekick:hammerhead:

If i was Bird or Lebron, i'll get Wade and Bosh please.

[97 bulls]

Pippen and Rodman for sure. While the wade/bosh combo has the edge in scoring, pippen and rodman have the edge in everything else.

[97 bulls]

Wade is basically a 1st option for a champion team.... and thats your sidekick:hammerhead:

If i was Bird or Lebron, i'll get Wade and Bosh please.
Id rather have the guy who quarterbacked his teams to six championships, 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins, as well as the second winningest player ever.

[Bigsmoke]

Id rather have the guy who quarterbacked his teams to six championships, 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins, as well as the second winningest player ever.

it depends on the situation.

Rodman wasnt that good of a scorer so you better have someone like a toni kukoc to come off the bench for ya to provide that extra scoring. Kukoc was even starting most of the time during that 98 season. Rodman also had a lot of personal issues.

Wade is a better player than Pippen. We saw that in the Finals of 2006 where he proved himself that he's an all time great where Pippen is too.. but just not on Wade's level of greatness.

[SwooshReturns]

Id rather have the guy who quarterbacked his teams to six championships, 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins, as well as the second winningest player ever.
Wade is a proven number 1 option on a championship team, THAT DELIVERED.

Wade always has, and always will be better as an individual player, than Scottie Pippen.

[97 bulls]

it depends on the situation.

Rodman wasnt that good of a scorer so you better have someone like a toni kukoc to come off the bench for ya to provide that extra scoring Kukoc was even starting most of the time during that 98 season. Rodman also had a lot of personal problems.

Wade is a better player than Pippen. He saw that in the FInals of 2006 that he's an all time great where Pippen is too.. but just not Wade's level of greatness.
And bosh is nowhere near the defender or rebounder of rodman.

In my opinion, pippen is better than wade. One great series can not trump what pippen did in his six championhips. Pippen is the better rebounder, passer, defenser, etc. And pippen could score.

Factor in the olympic losses, last years debacle vs dallas. And the injury plagued seasons and yes pippen is ranked higher as well as a better player than wade

[97 bulls]

Wade is a proven number 1 option on a championship team, THAT DELIVERED.

Wade always has, and always will be better as an individual player, than Scottie Pippen.
He didn't deliver in 05, 06, 08, 09, 10, and definately not last year. And what's with this first option nonsense? Pippen was the quarterback. He was better at running a team than wade is at being a "first option"

[Bigsmoke]

And bosh is nowhere near the defender or rebounder of rodman.

In my opinion, pippen is better than wade. One great series can not trump what pippen did in his six championhips. Pippen is the better rebounder, passer, defenser, etc. And pippen could score.

Factor in the olympic losses, last years debacle vs dallas. And the injury plagued seasons and yes pippen is ranked higher as well as a better player than wade

comparing Bosh to Rodman is equivalent to comparing apples to oranges.

if your team have defenders and rebounders already then u dont need Rodman and vise versa if your team has a mad number of scoring options.... get Rodman.

The Heat needs Bosh because his shooting ability is very respectable and it stretches the floor for LeBron and Wade to penetrate to the rack. And lets not forget that erik spoelstra cant draw up plays that like phil could.

[TheNaturalWR]

He didn't deliver in 05, 06, 08, 09, 10, and definately not last year. And what's with this first option nonsense? Pippen was the quarterback. He was better at running a team than wade is at being a "first option"

He didn't deliver in 06 when he won a ship'? He didn't deliver in 05 because he got injured or else best believe he would be a 2 time champ by now. Nice of you to mention the years his team was utter shit. Pippen couldn't do jack without the G.O.A.T. He didn't deliver last year? Maybe because his teammates laid an egg while he BALLED OUT and was clearly the best player in that series. At least do your ****ing research before you start talking outta your ass. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

He didn't deliver in 06 when he won a ship'? He didn't deliver in 05 because he got injured or else best believe he would be a 2 time champ by now. Nice of you to mention the years his team was utter shit. Pippen couldn't do jack without the G.O.A.T. He didn't deliver last year? Maybe because his teammates laid an egg while he BALLED OUT and was clearly the best player in that series. At least do your ****ing research before you start talking outta your ass. :facepalm
My bad, I thought the heat won in 07. Regardless, the point is that pippen was better, much better in his role on the bulls (even without jordan) than wade in his role as first option

[97 bulls]

comparing Bosh to Rodman is equivalent to comparing apples to oranges.

if your team have defenders and rebounders already then u dont need Rodman and vise versa if your team has a mad number of scoring options.... get Rodman.

The Heat needs Bosh because his shooting ability is very respectable and it stretches the floor for LeBron and Wade to penetrate to the rack. And lets not forget that erik spoelstra cant draw up plays that like phil could.
I agree. Both players games are polar opposite.

[SwooshReturns]

He didn't deliver in 05, 06, 08, 09, 10, and definately not last year.
But he did deliver. Nobody wins every season man, c'mon now haha ... and his roster changed multiple times. The roster for the Heat was ATROCIOUS in 2008, 2009, and 2010.

He probably could've won in 2005 if he didn't get hurt, either. Oh and FYI, they won in 2006.

In 2007 they were looking good too before he got hurt.


And what's with this first option nonsense? Pippen was the quarterback. He was better at running a team than wade is at being a "first option"
Not really. Wade won a ring, as ALPHA, this conversation isn't even debatable.

And it's not like Wade is just score first, he creates for others better than Pippen too.

He's a better player, easily in fact.

[97 bulls]

But he did deliver. Nobody wins every season man, c'mon now haha ... and his roster changed multiple times. The roster for the Heat was ATROCIOUS in 2008, 2009, and 2010.

He probably could've won in 2005 if he didn't get hurt, either. Oh and FYI, they won in 2006.

In 2007 they were looking good too before he got hurt.


Not really. Wade won a ring, as ALPHA, this conversation isn't even debatable.

And it's not like Wade is just score first, he creates for others better than Pippen too.

He's a better player, easily in fact.
I don't wanna read excuses swoosh. We've had this conversation before. Wade is a better first option player than pippen, but that doesn't make him a better player.

And your a fool if you feel wade is better at creating for his teammates. Do you evn know what it means to run a team? Its not just attack the basket and kick out to shooters. It calling plays, exposing mismatches, making sure players get their shots where they're comfortable. And making sure players are put in position to succeed offensively. Wade can't and never could do that. Then you factor in pippen is better off the ball, as well as in the post offensively. The only thing wade did better was attack the basket

[D-Wade316]

**** at people choosing Pippen/Rodman over Wade/Bosh.

Wade is delivering first option production on second option touches. LOL at dumbass 97 bulls saying Wade can't run an offense. Bosh is an underrated defender. Anyone who watches Heat games knows that Bosh is one of the Heat's defensive anchors. And Bosh is light years the better scorer than Rodman.

[97 bulls]

**** at people choosing Pippen/Rodman over Wade/Bosh.

Wade is delivering first option production on second option touches. LOL at dumbass 97 bulls saying Wade can't run an offense. Bosh is an underrated defender. Anyone who watches Heat games knows that Bosh is one of the Heat's defensive anchors. And Bosh is light years the better scorer than Rodman.
If you reread my post, I acknowledge that wade is a better first option player than pippen. But take a look at the numbers. Wade is clearly a second option in the heats system this year. He's avg 22 pts on 17 shots, pippens best year as a second option player statistically was in 92. He avg 21 pts on 17 shots. They're right on par with each other.

And regardless of how you feel bosh is defensively, he nowhere near rodman. He can't rebound like rodman. And his intangibles are nowhere near rodmans.

[SwooshReturns]

**** at people choosing Pippen/Rodman over Wade/Bosh.

Wade is delivering first option production on second option touches. LOL at dumbass 97 bulls saying Wade can't run an offense. Bosh is an underrated defender. Anyone who watches Heat games knows that Bosh is one of the Heat's defensive anchors. And Bosh is light years the better scorer than Rodman.
The difference is the QUALITY of the first option.

If you're a GOD like MJ ... a beta mentality, all around LeBron esque type player as your wingman and a hard nose defensive role player suits your talents and abilities better

If you have all around skills, can't create in the half court in the playoffs, fail time and time again and get totally SHOOK in the big moments ...

You need Wade and Bosh to alievate pressure.

Get it?

[pauk]

If you are Jordan/Lebron..... then Pippen & Rodman are the better complementary players

[D-Wade316]

If you reread my post, I acknowledge that wade is a better first option player than pippen. But take a look at the numbers. Wade is clearly a second option in the heats system this year. He's avg 22 pts on 17 shots, pippens best year as a second option player statistically was in 92. He avg 21 pts on 17 shots. They're right on par with each other.
Pippen played 38.6 minutes. Wade plays 32.2 minutes this season, the lowest for his career. Why not post their per36 min stats to be fair?

Wade was and never will be the defender Pippen is, but just because Pippen plays better defense, does not make him a better player. Wade flat out blows him away in offense. Not even close.

And regardless of how you feel bosh is defensively, he nowhere near rodman. He can't rebound like rodman. And his intangibles are nowhere near rodmans.
I'd take Bosh's scoring over Rodman's defense and rebounding. Intangibles are highly subjective, so I'll leave you with your own opinion.

[SwooshReturns]

If you are Jordan/Lebron..... then Pippen & Rodman are the better complementary players
LeBron can't have Pippen. They are essentially the same player, they would be totally redundant. LeBron is just an upgraded version of Pippen.

The same way Pippen failed to take his team anywhere because he lacked the mental fortitude and competitive hunger to close out teams whether it was ont he Bulls or Blazers, or take over in the big moment ... the same way Jordan had to be THE guy to get them over the hump, even with a championship veteran ball club and roster ...

Same goes for LeBron. That's why he's in a different jersey, playing for WADE'S franchise.

He recognized his own limitations as a player, and instead of trying to improve upon them, he bailed and asked Wade for the help.

[Doctor Rivers]

I rather play with Gasol and Bynum. I am gonna lead the NBA in shot jacking per game.

lol lebron lickers...

[97 bulls]

Pippen played 38.6 minutes. Wade plays 32.2 minutes this season, the lowest for his career. Why not post their per36 min stats to be fair?

Wade was and never will be the defender Pippen is, but just because Pippen plays better defense, does not make him a better player. Wade flat out blows him away in offense. Not even close.

I'd take Bosh's scoring over Rodman's defense and rebounding. Intangibles are highly subjective, so I'll leave you with your own opinion.
Ok according to 36 minutes, wade takes 19 shots a game. Which is good for the most on the team. What's the point?

Wades much better at penetraing. But that's where it stops. Look, are we comparing the players total game? Or just their offensive stats? Cuz prime wade is what? A 25-26 ppg scorer as a first option taking roughly 20 shots per year? And pippen in his prime was about a 19-20 ppg scorer as a second option player taking 15-16 shots? That's a 5 point difference roughly. I wouldnt exactly call that blowing him out the water. But still, there's more to offense than just scoring.


Were just gonna have to agree to disagree on the bosh/rodman comparison. I wouldn't take bosh over kukoc to be honest. He's not an impact player. Go back and check the spurs record with and without rodman. If your too lazy to do it, let me know, ill look it up for you. Boshes best year leading a team was the year he led the raptors to 47 wins. Rodman was the pistons best player in 92 when he won the dpoy award, was allnba defense 1st team and had a statistical season of 10/19/2 on 54% shooting. The pistons won 48 games. Better than bosh.

[97 bulls]

LeBron can't have Pippen. They are essentially the same player, they would be totally redundant. LeBron is just an upgraded version of Pippen.

The same way Pippen failed to take his team anywhere because he lacked the mental fortitude and competitive hunger to close out teams whether it was ont he Bulls or Blazers, or take over in the big moment ... the same way Jordan had to be THE guy to get them over the hump, even with a championship veteran ball club and roster ...

Same goes for LeBron. That's why he's in a different jersey, playing for WADE'S franchise.

He recognized his own limitations as a player, and instead of trying to improve upon them, he bailed and asked Wade for the help.
You know what's sad swoosh..... its one thing to be ignorant, but once the truth is exposed and you refuse to acknowledge it, then you become stupid.

Now id like to ask you, were the blazers supposed to beat the lakers in 00? Were the bulls favored to beat the knicks in 94?

Im sure you'll conveniently ignore these questions. But I gotta try.

[pauk]

LeBron can't have Pippen. They are essentially the same player, they would be totally redundant. LeBron is just an upgraded version of Pippen.

The same way Pippen failed to take his team anywhere because he lacked the mental fortitude and competitive hunger to close out teams whether it was ont he Bulls or Blazers, or take over in the big moment ... the same way Jordan had to be THE guy to get them over the hump, even with a championship veteran ball club and roster ...

Same goes for LeBron. That's why he's in a different jersey, playing for WADE'S franchise.

He recognized his own limitations as a player, and instead of trying to improve upon them, he bailed and asked Wade for the help.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3757/161ccid.gif

[Bigsmoke]

LeBron can't have Pippen. They are essentially the same player, they would be totally redundant. LeBron is just an upgraded version of Pippen.

The same way Pippen failed to take his team anywhere because he lacked the mental fortitude and competitive hunger to close out teams whether it was ont he Bulls or Blazers, or take over in the big moment ... the same way Jordan had to be THE guy to get them over the hump, even with a championship veteran ball club and roster ...

Same goes for LeBron. That's why he's in a different jersey, playing for WADE'S franchise.

He recognized his own limitations as a player, and instead of trying to improve upon them, he bailed and asked Wade for the help.

LeBron career isnt over yet.

doubter thought Shaq was too immature to win when he kept getting swept out the playoffs each year, Dirk was too soft to win after when happened in the Finals, Hell...Magic had some criticism by being called "Tragic Johnson" after winning 2 championship or whatever.

[Eric Cartman]

People don't realize Wade is probably the best player in the NBA and not even the best player on his team "who cares?". Hell Wade & Bosh without the Diva could win the title this year. You couldn't say that about a Pippen/Rodman lead team.

[Bigsmoke]

People don't realize Wade is probably the best player in the NBA and not even the best player on his team "who cares?". Hell Wade & Bosh without the Diva could win the title this year. You couldn't say that about a Pippen/Rodman lead team.


you have a point there.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Same goes for LeBron. That's why he's in a different jersey, playing for WADE'S franchise.

He recognized his own limitations as a player, and instead of trying to improve upon them, he bailed and asked Wade for the help.

Honestly, I just don't agree with this point of view. Lebron joining the Heat was a non-issue to me. How he did it made him come off as an attention whore and a clown, but that wasn't really that important in the first place, much less a year and a half later. I definitely don't view leaving after your contract is fulfilled as "bailing". Or that it exposes any limitations, he simply went to the best situation he saw, which is what free agency is about. I don't think he should've purposely stayed in a city he either didn't want to be in, or pass up the city he wanted to be in the most. And I don't think he should've purposely gone to a team with less talent to make it more difficult to win. That simply doesn't make any sense to me.

With that being said, those saying Lebron finally had what other great players had is an understatement.

In the past 20 years or so, Lebron's situation is unique. Not only do they have arguably the 2 best players in the league, but a 7-time all-star in his prime as the 3rd option and additional depth after that with Chalmers/Cole, Haslem, Miller and Battier.

On paper some of those 80's rosters may look equal/arguably even better, but that's more than what Jordan or other greats have won with the last 20 years. No question. pauk bringing up Kobe is laughable. Kobe NEVER played on a roster that talented.



Now id like to ask you, were the blazers supposed to beat the lakers in 00? Were the bulls favored to beat the knicks in 94?

I don't agree with his view of Pippen either, I don't think we saw enough to conclude he was incapable of leading a team, in fact, I think he did very well all things considered.

But don't downplay the Blazers expectations. They had the highest payroll in the league, were probably preseason favorites to win the title, were widely considered the most talented and stacked team in the league and some were talking 70 wins for them. It would not have been a surprise had they beaten the Lakers. With that being said, by the time of the WCF, I'd say the Lakers were favored by most, iirc.

I don't hold that against Pippen since I judge players more by what they do in their prime or at least near it. Pippen was past his prime in 2000 and despite being a very good/valuable all around player was not on a team at that point who relied on him carrying them or a single player as the clear man.

The Blazers whole thing offensively was about having so many different scoring threats and a good size so that they could exploit whatever match up advantage they had on a given night. So Pippen was the leader, but not really "the man" or at least not in the traditional sense.

They definitely weren't favored in '94, and they didn't have the more talented roster. I'll give you that.


I wouldn't take bosh over kukoc to be honest. He's not an impact player.

This is where I'm really lost. Bosh vs Kukoc? Really? Kukoc was a bad defender, Bosh has in fact been good defensively with Miami. He's a considerably more capable scorer as well. Kukoc was a great passer, and a good all around player, but not on Bosh's level. No way in hell.

You mention Rodman's teams records with and without Rodman and then call Bosh a non-impact player, well look at Toronto with and without Bosh during his 5 all-star seasons there.

2006- 26-44 with Bosh, 1-11 without Bosh
2007- 41-28 with Bosh, 6-7 without Bosh
2008- 37-31 with Bosh, 4-11 without Bosh
2009- 31-46 with Bosh, 2-3 without Bosh
2010- 35-35 with Bosh, 5-7 without Bosh

And they were 22-60 after Bosh left.

Not much of a sample size with and without Bosh on Miami. In 2011, they were 55-22 with him and 3-2 without him which doesn't tell us much. And he hasn't missed a game this season.

But either way, I don't see how you can use Rodman's team's records with and without him to show his impact and then call Bosh a non-impact player when the same method suggests he has a big impact.

[Fiasco]

I rather play with Gasol and Bynum. I am gonna lead the NBA in shot jacking per game.

Nah, we all know you would rather play with yourself while looking at pictures of LeBron.

[bluechox2]

young folks clearly dont know who rodman and pippen are. :facepalm

[SwooshReturns]

Honestly, I just don't agree with this point of view. Lebron joining the Heat was a non-issue to me. How he did it made him come off as an attention whore and a clown, but that wasn't really that important in the first place, much less a year and a half later. I definitely don't view leaving after your contract is fulfilled as "bailing".
You don't consider it "bailing" when your team was good enough to be EXPECTED to have gone to two straight NBA Finals, and you came up short. You don't think it's "bailing" when like a complete clown you promise your hometown a championship? Please dude ... by all intents and purposes, the going got tough, and he bailed. He wasn't in some horrific position with that franchise where he couldn't win the big one, he felt the pressure of winning and BAILED.

[D-Wade316]

young folks clearly dont know who rodman and pippen are. :facepalm
And the casual fans, even the intelligent ones, don't have a ****ing clue who Dwyane Wade is.

[Teanett]

People don't realize Wade is probably the best player in the NBA and not even the best player on his team "who cares?". Hell Wade & Bosh without the Diva could win the title this year. You couldn't say that about a Pippen/Rodman lead team.
Oh, yes they would,
Put pip and rodman on the knicks instead of amare/melo.
They would win it.

[blablabla]

People don't realize Wade is probably the best player in the NBA and not even the best player on his team "who cares?". Hell Wade & Bosh without the Diva could win the title this year. You couldn't say that about a Pippen/Rodman lead team.
pippen won 50+games after jordan retired with grant as 2nd option wade needed shaq to win 50+games

[TheNaturalWR]

My bad, I thought the heat won in 07. Regardless, the point is that pippen was better, much better in his role on the bulls (even without jordan) than wade in his role as first option

Pippen is better at being a 2nd option than Wade is at being a 1st? It's not hard to look good when you have the G.O.A.T bailing you out whenever you needed it. If GM's were to pick a player to build around I GUARANTEE the majority would pick Wade. Scottie never averaged over 22 per as a second option and you're saying he's better than Wade? Scottie's one of the best all-around players in league history but I'm not taking him over Wade, sorry. There's no case whatsoever for Pippen > Wade. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Honestly, I just don't agree with this point of view. Lebron joining the Heat was a non-issue to me. How he did it made him come off as an attention whore and a clown, but that wasn't really that important in the first place, much less a year and a half later. I definitely don't view leaving after your contract is fulfilled as "bailing". Or that it exposes any limitations, he simply went to the best situation he saw, which is what free agency is about. I don't think he should've purposely stayed in a city he either didn't want to be in, or pass up the city he wanted to be in the most. And I don't think he should've purposely gone to a team with less talent to make it more difficult to win. That simply doesn't make any sense to me.

With that being said, those saying Lebron finally had what other great players had is an understatement.

In the past 20 years or so, Lebron's situation is unique. Not only do they have arguably the 2 best players in the league, but a 7-time all-star in his prime as the 3rd option and additional depth after that with Chalmers/Cole, Haslem, Miller and Battier.

On paper some of those 80's rosters may look equal/arguably even better, but that's more than what Jordan or other greats have won with the last 20 years. No question. pauk bringing up Kobe is laughable. Kobe NEVER played on a roster that talented.



I don't agree with his view of Pippen either, I don't think we saw enough to conclude he was incapable of leading a team, in fact, I think he did very well all things considered.

But don't downplay the Blazers expectations. They had the highest payroll in the league, were probably preseason favorites to win the title, were widely considered the most talented and stacked team in the league and some were talking 70 wins for them. It would not have been a surprise had they beaten the Lakers. With that being said, by the time of the WCF, I'd say the Lakers were favored by most, iirc.

I don't hold that against Pippen since I judge players more by what they do in their prime or at least near it. Pippen was past his prime in 2000 and despite being a very good/valuable all around player was not on a team at that point who relied on him carrying them or a single player as the clear man.

The Blazers whole thing offensively was about having so many different scoring threats and a good size so that they could exploit whatever match up advantage they had on a given night. So Pippen was the leader, but not really "the man" or at least not in the traditional sense.

They definitely weren't favored in '94, and they didn't have the more talented roster. I'll give you that.



This is where I'm really lost. Bosh vs Kukoc? Really? Kukoc was a bad defender, Bosh has in fact been good defensively with Miami. He's a considerably more capable scorer as well. Kukoc was a great passer, and a good all around player, but not on Bosh's level. No way in hell.

You mention Rodman's teams records with and without Rodman and then call Bosh a non-impact player, well look at Toronto with and without Bosh during his 5 all-star seasons there.

2006- 26-44 with Bosh, 1-11 without Bosh
2007- 41-28 with Bosh, 6-7 without Bosh
2008- 37-31 with Bosh, 4-11 without Bosh
2009- 31-46 with Bosh, 2-3 without Bosh
2010- 35-35 with Bosh, 5-7 without Bosh

And they were 22-60 after Bosh left.

Not much of a sample size with and without Bosh on Miami. In 2011, they were 55-22 with him and 3-2 without him which doesn't tell us much. And he hasn't missed a game this season.

But either way, I don't see how you can use Rodman's team's records with and without him to show his impact and then call Bosh a non-impact player when the same method suggests he has a big impact.
I strongly disagree with the notion that jordan didn't have as much help as the any team before or after him. The bulls had 4 hofers not counting jordan. They won 55 games without him. I don't see why or how you could feel this way.

Look at the bosh/kukoc comparison. Its a stretch to say bosh wasn't an impact player. My point was that they (the raptors) weren't much of a team with or without him. And his stats were more or less a product of his being on a bad team. What did he avg last year? 18/8/2? In 35-36 minutes? Kukoc was roughly a 14/5 guy. And his 36 minutes stats are right with bosh. He's roughly a 17/6/6 guy based off of 36 minutes. And if he plays 38 to 40, like bosh did in toronto, his stats are better than bosh. And his impact on that bulls team is similar to the impact that Bosh had on toronto. In 99, the bulls were 13-37. Kukoc missed 6 games. The bulls were 0-6. The bulls "big 3" were brent barry, ron harper, and kukoc. There's no doubt in my mind that kukoc does better than bosh in toronto.

[97 bulls]

Pippen is better at being a 2nd option than Wade is at being a 1st? It's not hard to look good when you have the G.O.A.T bailing you out whenever you needed it. If GM's were to pick a player to build around I GUARANTEE the majority would pick Wade. Scottie never averaged over 22 per as a second option and you're saying he's better than Wade? Scottie's one of the best all-around players in league history but I'm not taking him over Wade, sorry. There's no case whatsoever for Pippen > Wade. :confusedshrug:
No no no. Again, how are we comparing these players? are we basing this comparison off of just offense? I said pippen was better at doing what he did best, versitility, defense, and running an offense, than wade doing what he does best which is scoring.

[97 bulls]

Another point id like to refute is the notion that bosh is a "good" defender. You know why why bosh ie relegated to defending the weaker of the center or power forward? Cuz he not a good defender. I even heard someone say in the joel antony thread that bosh was miamis defensive anchor. What a joke.

[TheNaturalWR]

No no no. Again, how are we comparing these players? are we basing this comparison off of just offense? I said pippen was better at doing what he did best, versitility, defense, and running an offense, than wade doing what he does best which is scoring.

Wade's best attribute is scoring but that doesn't mean he's a one-dimensional player. Wade's the second best ALL-AROUND player in the game today and the only player better is his teammate. You're gonna run an offense and never crack 25 per? Are you kidding me? Wade is a better scorer, passer, shotblocker, and was just way more dominant. Pippen was a better on-ball defender and 3 pt shooter and that's it. Your post makes no sense at ALL. Lets look at it like this shall we? Pippen at his best was no where near Wade at his best. Simple as that. So if we're building a franchise around somebody who are we taking? THE BETTER PLAYER and that's Dwyane Wade, not Pippen.

[oolalaa]

No no no. Again, how are we comparing these players? are we basing this comparison off of just offense? I said pippen was better at doing what he did best, versitility, defense, and running an offense, than wade doing what he does best which is scoring.

What does that mean? Do you think prime Wade was better than prime Pippen or not? If you could start a franchise with '09 Wade or '94 Pippen, who would you choose?

[PJR]

This dude 97 Bulls is on crack...:oldlol:

[hitmanyr2k]

I see no one is questioning the obvious. Which era of the NBA do these guys get to play in...Pippen and Rodman's tougher era or this lame ass era where players flop on offense and get rewarded with free throws? The way the game is called now with offensive players taking a dive anytime they can to get a whistle Rodman wouldn't be as effective. He'd still be a great rebounder but as a man defender he would probably foul out by the first half. Same goes for Pippen. His man defense would suffer but his team/help defense probably gets even better since he doesn't have to worry about illegal defense anymore. Pippen's offense also receives a boost since the defense isn't the same it used to be.

On the flipside could Bosh handle Rodman's era and still be the same player? I don't think so. Is Wade going to average 9-11 free throws a game to inflate his scoring average in the 90's? I doubt it. Refs weren't giving out free throws like candy back then the way they are now. They didn't bail players out for screaming like bitches or snapping their necks back and all the other bullshit theatrics players pull these days. We're talking about completely different eras these guys played in and it would certainly effect the way they play and their stats. I don't know why anyone hasn't taken that into consideration.

[TheNaturalWR]

I see no one is questioning the obvious. Which era of the NBA do these guys get to play in...Pippen and Rodman's tougher era or this lame ass era where players flop on offense and get rewarded with free throws? The way the game is called now with offensive players taking a dive anytime they can to get a whistle Rodman wouldn't be as effective. He'd still be a great rebounder but as a man defender he would probably foul out by the first half. Same goes for Pippen. His man defense would suffer but his team/help defense probably gets even better since he doesn't have to worry about illegal defense anymore. Pippen's offense also receives a boost since the defense isn't the same it used to be.

On the flipside could Bosh handle Rodman's era and still be the same player? I don't think so. Is Wade going to average 9-11 free throws a game to inflate his scoring average in the 90's? I doubt it. Refs weren't giving out free throws like candy back then the way they are now. They didn't bail players out for screaming like bitches or snapping their necks back and all the other bullshit theatrics players pull these days. We're talking about completely different eras these guys played in and it would certainly effect the way they play and their stats. I don't know why anyone hasn't taken that into consideration.

Would Pippen and Rodman last in this era where athleticism is almost a necessity? Lets just base it off skill and their production and CLEARLY Wade and Bosh are the obvious choice. Don't take all this bullshit into account and just base it off skill.

[SwooshReturns]

Would Pippen and Rodman last in this era where athleticism is almost a necessity?
Since when were Pippen and Rodman NOT athletic?

:oldlol:

[RidonKs]

i would love to see Dennis Rodman man up h2h against Chris Bosh... i'm a fan of cb4, but the unraveling would be absolutely hilarious

[SwooshReturns]

i would love to see Dennis Rodman man up h2h against Chris Bosh... i'm a fan of cb4, but the unraveling would be hilarious
CB4 might get into Rodman's homo type tactics, though. Bosh is questionable.

:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

What does that mean? Do you think prime Wade was better than prime Pippen or not? If you could start a franchise with '09 Wade or '94 Pippen, who would you choose?
Pippen all the way. And I don't think you can compare players who's games are different based off one of the players strengths. Saying wade was better cuz he's the better scorer is dumb. Id choose pippen cuz he brings more to the table.

[97 bulls]

I see no one is questioning the obvious. Which era of the NBA do these guys get to play in...Pippen and Rodman's tougher era or this lame ass era where players flop on offense and get rewarded with free throws? The way the game is called now with offensive players taking a dive anytime they can to get a whistle Rodman wouldn't be as effective. He'd still be a great rebounder but as a man defender he would probably foul out by the first half. Same goes for Pippen. His man defense would suffer but his team/help defense probably gets even better since he doesn't have to worry about illegal defense anymore. Pippen's offense also receives a boost since the defense isn't the same it used to be.

On the flipside could Bosh handle Rodman's era and still be the same player? I don't think so. Is Wade going to average 9-11 free throws a game to inflate his scoring average in the 90's? I doubt it. Refs weren't giving out free throws like candy back then the way they are now. They didn't bail players out for screaming like bitches or snapping their necks back and all the other bullshit theatrics players pull these days. We're talking about completely different eras these guys played in and it would certainly effect the way they play and their stats. I don't know why anyone hasn't taken that into consideration.
Extremely valid points

[97 bulls]

CB4 might get into Rodman's homo type tactics, though. Bosh is questionable.

:oldlol:
Lol

[97 bulls]

Hey swoosh, let me ask you a question. Which loss was worse. The heat losing to the mavs last year or the blazers losing to the lakers in 00?

[SwooshReturns]

Hey swoosh, let me ask you a question. Which loss was worse. The heat losing to the mavs last year or the blazers losing to the lakers in 00?
Blazers losing ... they were stomping on the Lakers for 3 quarters. They were a quarter away from winning and still choked. Actually less than a quarter away from winning.

The Heat only won 2 games.

[97 bulls]

Blazers losing ... they were stomping on the Lakers for 3 quarters. They were a quarter away from winning and still choked. Actually less than a quarter away from winning.

The Heat only won 2 games.
Lol what? Didn't the wade led, no prime wade led heat choke away a 15 or 16 lead in the 4th themselves? In miami, no less. Weren't the heat the favorites? The blazers werent. Didn't the heat have a 2-1 series lead? Come on.

[TheNaturalWR]

Pippen all the way. And I don't think you can compare players who's games are different based off one of the players strengths. Saying wade was better cuz he's the better scorer is dumb. Id choose pippen cuz he brings more to the table.

How many times are you gonna ignore the fact that Wade is just CLEARLY the better player. 30-7-5 is just scoring to you? Pippen never had a season close to this. God you're beyond retarded. :facepalm

[PJR]

I wonder if Phil Jackson would draw up a game winner for Toni Kukoc in a playoff game over Dwyane Wade? Doubt it. :oldlol:

[Tmuston Beltics]

Wade and Bosh.. Pippen and Rodman are too old to play anyways :lol

[PJR]

How many times are you gonna ignore the fact that Wade is just CLEARLY the better player. 30-7-5 is just scoring to you? Pippen never had a season close to this. God you're beyond retarded. :facepalm

This.

[SwooshReturns]

Lol what? Didn't the wade led, no prime wade led heat choke away a 15 or 16 lead in the 4th themselves?
In game 2 ... and the rest of the series Wade BALLED HARD. LeBron just tucked his sack in and didn't play for the duration of the series.

Portland was less than a quarter away from winning the series, but the team had absolutely NO closers.

You can't be this much of a homer, can you?


In miami, no less. Weren't the heat the favorites? The blazers werent. Didn't the heat have a 2-1 series lead? Come on.
Miami was favorites. They lost because LeBron showed up for one game ... and that's it.

The Blazers weren't underdogs. People were split on who was going to win that series from the start.

2 - 1 series lead still requires 2 more wins to end the series.

The Blazers were less than a quarter away with a HUGE lead to seal the deal and couldn't.

It's not even close, the Blazers choke job was MUCH worse.

[97 bulls]

I wonder if Phil Jackson would draw up a game winner for Toni Kukoc in a playoff game over Dwyane Wade? Doubt it. :oldlol:
He's done it before, jordan (the bulls best player) was the decoy the last play of the 93 finals game 6.

[SwooshReturns]

He's done it before, jordan (the bulls best player) was the decoy the last play of the 93 finals game 6.
No he wasn't. The play was meant for Jordan. They doubled him and each extra pass made was for the easy bucket. Horace Grant had NO confidence as he shot terribly all series long, and he made an extra pass to Paxson, who just so happens to be SUPER clutch.

[PJR]

He's done it before, jordan (the bulls best player) was the decoy the last play of the 93 finals game 6.

Jordan actually touched the basketball though. :oldlol:

Phil saw that MJ da gawd was not on the bench, so he went to the next best thing...The croatian sensation(not Pippen)! :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

How many times are you gonna ignore the fact that Wade is just CLEARLY the better player. 30-7-5 is just scoring to you? Pippen never had a season close to this. God you're beyond retarded. :facepalm
And in pippens best season, he avg 22/9/6 and was his teams best man and help defender while running the offense. And pippens defense far outshines wades.

[PJR]

Oh geez. Pippen was a great perimeter defender, and he developed a great reputation on that end...but stop acting like he was Jesus on the basketball court.

Wade is quite the respectable defender(especially when tries), and a great all around player to boot. And was a significantly better 1-1 player.

90% of GMs and execs would start their franchise with Wade. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

[SwooshReturns]

Wade's is closer to Pippen defensively, than Pippen is to Wade offensively. That right there explains why Wade is all around the better player, and it isn't even close.

[Odinn]

If I have a player like Jordan or LeBron whom I can run my offense thru him, I'd rather play with Rodman/Pippen. If I need massive scoring option(s), I'd rather have Wade/Bosh.

[97 bulls]

In game 2 ... and the rest of the series Wade BALLED HARD. LeBron just tucked his sack in and didn't play for the duration of the series.

Portland was less than a quarter away from winning the series, but the team had absolutely NO closers.

You can't be this much of a homer, can you?


Miami was favorites. They lost because LeBron showed up for one game ... and that's it.

The Blazers weren't underdogs. People were split on who was going to win that series from the start.

2 - 1 series lead still requires 2 more wins to end the series.

The Blazers were less than a quarter away with a HUGE lead to seal the deal and couldn't.

It's not even close, the Blazers choke job was MUCH worse.
Again, what? Regardless of when you get them, in the finals you need four wins to win in the finals. If theyou heat hadntthe choked away thata 4th quarterthemselves lead, they moreweren't than likleythe go on to beat thethe mavs. Your so enamored with being clutch and who the closer is. Why didn't wade in his prime finish the mavs?

You knock a 34 year old pippen for not beating a team they weren't supposed to beat, but give wade a pass.

And this isn't being a homer. Im just looking at the circumstances. The heat were heavily favored, unlike the blazers. The heat coughed up a big 4th quarter lead like the blazers. What difference does it make as which game it was?

[hitmanyr2k]

In game 2 ... and the rest of the series Wade BALLED HARD. LeBron just tucked his sack in and didn't play for the duration of the series.

Miami was favorites. They lost because LeBron showed up for one game ... and that's it.

The Blazers weren't underdogs. People were split on who was going to win that series from the start.

2 - 1 series lead still requires 2 more wins to end the series.

The Blazers were less than a quarter away with a HUGE lead to seal the deal and couldn't.

It's not even close, the Blazers choke job was MUCH worse.

Giving Wade a pass for Game 6? Since it was an elimination game for the Heat you would think Wade would have "BALLED HARD" being in his prime, on his home floor, and being such a great offensive player and all. What happened there? It seems both he and Lebron tucked their tails when the going got rough and called it quits.

The Blazers at least came back from a 1-3 series deficit to get it to Game 7 in the first place and they were clearly dealing with a better team than the 2011 Mavs :oldlol:

[SwooshReturns]

Giving Wade a pass for Game 6?
He had an injury in game 5, you realize this right?

[97 bulls]

No he wasn't. The play was meant for Jordan. They doubled him and each extra pass made was for the easy bucket. Horace Grant had NO confidence as he shot terribly all series long, and he made an extra pass to Paxson, who just so happens to be SUPER clutch.
Lol go back and watch the play. It was drawn up for pippen. Jordan got the ball full court, got about 3/4ths the length of the court, pippen flashed to the top of the key in which jordan passed it to him and ran to the corner. Pippen caught it and drove in and dished it to grant who I agree chickened out and passed it to pax. There was no double team on jordan. Hell he didn't even get to half court. The play fooled everybody . Even fratello misanticipated the play as it unfolded when he said and I quote, "watch jordan get a full head of steam".

[97 bulls]

He had an injury in game 5, you realize this right?
Lol weak sauce.

[hitmanyr2k]

He had an injury in game 5, you realize this right?

Who hasn't played with injuries?

[SwooshReturns]

Lol go back and watch the play. It was drawn up for pippen. Jordan got the ball full court, got about 3/4ths the length of the court, pippen flashed to the top of the key in which jordan passed it to him and ran to the corner. Pippen caught it and drove in and dished it to grant who I agree chickened out and passed it to pax. There was no double team on jordan. Hell he didn't even get to half court. The play fooled everybody . Even fratello misanticipated the play as it unfolded when he said and I quote, "watch jordan get a full head of steam".
They just talked about it on Comcast Sportsnet here in Chicago a few weeks back.

They played the game w/ commentary from Stacey King and John Paxson.

The play was designed for Jordan. Paxson said this, verbatim. They wanted to let him create off the dribble. He was afterall the only one that scored that ENTIRE quarter besides Paxson's winning shot.

:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Dwayne "clutch" Wade in game 6 vs the mavs. 17pts on 6-16 shooting 38%

[oolalaa]

Pippen all the way. And I don't think you can compare players who's games are different based off one of the players strengths. Saying wade was better cuz he's the better scorer is dumb. Id choose pippen cuz he brings more to the table.

You're an irrational homer. Quit acting like Wade is ONLY a scorer. The guy is/was one of the best all round players in the league.

The first thing that comes to mind is....do you think peak Pippen was better than peak Kobe then??????????????? Whilst I would give an edge to Kobe (over Wade), the comparison is undoubtedly a good, close one.


You clearly didn't watch Wade closely in that 08/09 season. He WAS the Miami Heat. He lead Haslem, rookie Mario Chalmers, a Marion who only played half the season and missed the playoffs entirely, Jermaine '4 yrs past his prime' O'Neal and Michael 'shot jacking' Beasley to 43 wins and a game 7 loss against a much better/deeper Hawks team in the 1st round. (cook and Moon were playing 25 minutes a game for christ sake!!).

Not only did he average 8 more points per game (8 more ppg!! yeh lets ignore that, right?) than Pippen did in '94, but he also averaged 2 more assists.....in a slower paced era!!!!! Are you kidding me?? Wade can run an offense too, in case you havn't noticed (although I know assists don't tell the whole story, I also know that you love to use Pippens assist numbers to show how great of a passer/play maker he was. Didn't you say he'd be averaging 9 assists per game in the 80s??)

Is it a coincidence that Pippens assists numbers dropped when he had to take a larger share of the scoring load? (and lets not forget the easy assists Pippen got playing with MJ)

Oh and by the way, Wade really stepped up his overall energy on the defensive end in that season as well, getting 2.2 steals a game and playing great man defence (And I've always said that I've never seen anyone step up their defence in crunch time, quite like Wade does)

Are you really trying to tell me that Pippens defensive/versatility edge outweighs the MAMMOTH offensive discrepancy?

[PJR]

Dwayne "clutch" Wade in game 6 vs the mavs. 17pts on 6-16 shooting 38%

Now post his stats from 2006....Don't cherry pick.

[97 bulls]

:(
They just talked about it on Comcast Sportsnet here in Chicago a few weeks back.

They played the game w/ commentary from Stacey King and John Paxson.

The play was designed for Jordan. Paxson said this, verbatim. They wanted to let him create off the dribble. He was afterall the only one that scored that ENTIRE quarter besides Paxson's winning shot.:no:

:oldlol:
Paxson didn't say that. And he scored all 9 points cuz he took all but 3 shots in the fourth. If I remember correct the bulls took 18 shots in that fourth quarter. Pippen took 2 shots paxson hit the game winner and jordan took the rest.

Here is that last play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48

Now who was it that double jordan to make him pass to pippen?

[stevieming]

Bosh is your typical good power forward. Nothing special

Wade is a great scorer and shot blocker for his position, and he does a bit of everything.

However since I would regard myself to be a numero uno scorer in this situation. I would choose Pippen and rodman.

Pippen can play great D and score some, where as rodman plays great d and rebounds, and I can score/shot jack all day long.

Hell, just call me MJ, and the holy trinity would be complete. :lol

[bond10]

If I was any bball player, then Wade and Bosh.
If I was a top 5 player, then Rodman and Pippen.

[bond10]

The defense argument needs to go. I grew up in the late 90s and early 2000s era but let's be honest, the rule changes just dropped defensive impact everywhere. You can't breathe on players without a call.

[97 bulls]

Now post his stats from 2006....Don't cherry pick.
Posted that in an effort ot show swoosh. I asked him which was worse the blazers losing to the lakers in 00 or the heat losing to the mavs. He said the blazer cuz they choked in the final game. As if coughing up a 15 point lead in the fourth quarter of game 6 is worse than any other game in the finals. He blames pippen for it and says wade is much more clutch. And "balled out" in every game after that loss. Well, if he's so clutch and balled out, why did he only score 17 points in game 6 on 38%?


Ill ask you the same question, which loss was worse? The blazer losing to the lakers in 00, or the heat losing to mavs last year?

[TheNaturalWR]

And in pippens best season, he avg 22/9/6 and was his teams best man and help defender while running the offense. And pippens defense far outshines wades.

Lol at 22/9/6 being compared to 30/7/5 on 49%FG. That's a ridiculously efficient season and not to mention he added 2 steals and 1 block per game. Pippen is a better on-ball defender but Wade is no slouch either. Wade is BY FAR the better team defender and BY FAR the better offensive player. lol @ you bashing Wade for not winning a ship' last year. His buddy LeBron decided not to show up and it's a proven fact that no one can win it alone. I thought you would know by now considering Jordan couldn't do it without Pippen. Pippen's a number 2 on ANY TEAM with a star. How the hell does Pippen run the offenses? Jordan WAS the offense. Teams weren't gameplanning for Pippen whatsoever. For the past 3-4 years when teams were up against Miami it was double #3 and let the scrubs beat us. I'm sorry but Pippen couldn't hold Wade's jockstrap. C'mon son. :facepalm

[bond10]

97 bulls is retarded. Wade is definitely > Pippen. Where do you have Pippen ranked all time and where do you have Wade?

[TheNaturalWR]

97 bulls is retarded. Wade is definitely > Pippen. Where do you have Pippen ranked all time and where do you have Wade?

Wade could retire now and be ahead of Pippen. FAR more dominant and just flat out BETTER. And retarded is an understatement. :no:

[bond10]

Wade could retire now and be ahead of Pippen. FAR more dominant and just flat out BETTER. And retarded is an understatement. :no:

He must be sarcastic and trolling then :oldlol:

Wade is top 15-20, Pippen is top 30-40

[stevieming]

Posted that in an effort ot show swoosh. I asked him which was worse the blazers losing to the lakers in 00 or the heat losing to the mavs. He said the blazer cuz they choked in the final game. As if coughing up a 15 point lead in the fourth quarter of game 6 is worse than any other game in the finals. He blames pippen for it and says wade is much more clutch. And "balled out" in every game after that loss. Well, if he's so clutch and balled out, why did he only score 17 points in game 6 on 38%?


Ill ask you the same question, which loss was worse? The blazer losing to the lakers in 00, or the heat losing to mavs last year?

I'll answer that for you. Blazers, there was no way Heat was going to win last year with Queen Bron, plus Dirk was just on a mission. It was like he had entered a cheat into his jump shot.

[97 bulls]

If I was any bball player, then Wade and Bosh.
If I was a top 5 player, then Rodman and Pippen.
Wade and bosh combined, 1 championship.

Pippen and rodman combined, 11

[97 bulls]

I'll answer that for you. Blazers, there was no way Heat was going to win last year with Queen Bron, plus Dirk was just on a mission. It was like he had entered a cheat into his jump shot.
The 67 win shaq/kobe lakers weren't?

[PJR]

Wade and bosh combined, 1 championship.

Pippen and rodman combined, 11


Derek Fisher, Robert Horry 12 championships

Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett 1 championship...


= your retarded logic...

[97 bulls]

The defense argument needs to go. I grew up in the late 90s and early 2000s era but let's be honest, the rule changes just dropped defensive impact everywhere. You can't breathe on players without a call.
How many points per would wade avg if he played in the 90s?

[stevieming]

The 67 win shaq/kobe lakers weren't?

??

The question was which loss was worse.

In my opinion, since the Heat never had a chance of winning, therefore the blazer's loss was worse. The blazers had a real chance of winning that game and blew it, forget about the regular season record, at that moment they had the lakers and proceeded to choke away because they didn't have a go to scorer.

[bond10]

Wade and bosh combined, 1 championship.

Pippen and rodman combined, 11

o..m..g...i hope you realize how seriously flawed this post this :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[bond10]

How many points per would wade avg if he played in the 90s?

Would Pippen be as good of a defender in the post-2005 era?

[PJR]

How many points per would wade avg if he played in the 90s?

Dwyane Wade would average 24-27 ppg on 48-50 % shooting in every era. He is a transcendent talent. Don't be stupid in thinking he' be some scrub in the 90's.

Guys like Penny, grant hill, Sprewell were all-NBA players in 90's and Wade is better than all those players.

Don't kid yourself.

[PJR]

Would Pippen be as good of a defender in the post-2005 era?

This. And on the flip side, what if Wade who has like a 6'10" wingspan played in an era where you could hand-check? Shit works both ways.

[oolalaa]

Wade and bosh combined, 1 championship.

Pippen and rodman combined, 11

HOMER ALERT! HOMER ALERT!

And are you even going to bother replying to my post? Please explain how Pippens defensive/versatility edge outweighs the HUUUUUUUUUGE offensive discrepancy.

Oh wait..........you can't.

[97 bulls]

??

The question was which loss was worse.

In my opinion, since the Heat never had a chance of winning, therefore the blazer's loss was worse. The blazers had a real chance of winning that game and blew it, forget about the regular season record, at that moment they had the lakers and proceeded to choke away because they didn't have a go to scorer.
You said the mavs weren't gonna lose cuz they were determined. The lakers weren't? Come on. The heat didn't just give the mavs the series.

[97 bulls]

HOMER ALERT! HOMER ALERT!

And are you even going to bother replying to my post? Please explain how Pippens defensive/versatility edge outweighs the HUUUUUUUUUGE offensive discrepancy.

Oh wait..........you can't.
Im gonna respond to your post. I just have to look up some information first.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You don't consider it "bailing" when your team was good enough to be EXPECTED to have gone to two straight NBA Finals, and you came up short. You don't think it's "bailing" when like a complete clown you promise your hometown a championship? Please dude ... by all intents and purposes, the going got tough, and he bailed. He wasn't in some horrific position with that franchise where he couldn't win the big one, he felt the pressure of winning and BAILED.

He played fine in 2009. They lost to Orlando because Howard killed their big man and Lewis was a horrible match up for their 4s. Despite that, games 1 and 4 would've been Cavs wins if not for Lewis hitting game-winning/game-tying 3s in both games. And on top of that,, Lebron's didn't play as well as they should've offensively.

In 2010? He should've played much better those last 3 games vs Boston. I don't fault him for not winning a title, but he should've played better.

His team wasn't horrible like some make them out to be, but they weren't the most talented team in the league, and I wouldn't expect them to win a title with any other star.

The guarantee? I take that for what it is, Lebron getting carried away and making a stupid comment. He didn't deliver on that so you can clown on him all you want for that. Still shouldn't force him to re-sign there. I mean he's not going to deliver on the "not five, not six, not seven" thing and win 8 titles either.

If I was a Cav fan I may feel differently, though not because of that guarantee. Ewing did that several times in New York and didn't win a title, and I could care less that he'd guaranteed them.

He didn't "bail" when it got tough. He left when his contract was up. And I didn't see the reason then for him to re-sign with Cleveland. They didn't look to be set up beyond 2010 in good position to win titles.

He can't escape the pressure of winning in Miami, either. And we saw that get to him last summer. It's a lot more likely he will win, which puts more pressure on him if anything, especially as the failures pile up.


I strongly disagree with the notion that jordan didn't have as much help as the any team before or after him. The bulls had 4 hofers not counting jordan. They won 55 games without him. I don't see why or how you could feel this way.

I never said he didn't have a good cast. And it is a fair point about them winning 55 games, but the '91-'93 Bulls didn't really have 4 hall of famers. They had Jordan and Pippen, and a borderline all-star as their 3rd best player(Grant), and I do think Grant was a good 3rd guy, and role players around them. Limited role players when it comes to talent, but they filled their roles and great coaching.

That's a good team, but there were other teams in the early 90's regarded as more talented and the current Miami Heat are also more talented. Not better, but more talented.

As far as the late 90's Bulls. They really had 3 hall of famers.


Look at the bosh/kukoc comparison. Its a stretch to say bosh wasn't an impact player. My point was that they (the raptors) weren't much of a team with or without him. And his stats were more or less a product of his being on a bad team. What did he avg last year? 18/8/2? In 35-36 minutes? Kukoc was roughly a 14/5 guy. And his 36 minutes stats are right with bosh. He's roughly a 17/6/6 guy based off of 36 minutes. And if he plays 38 to 40, like bosh did in toronto, his stats are better than bosh. And his impact on that bulls team is similar to the impact that Bosh had on toronto. In 99, the bulls were 13-37. Kukoc missed 6 games. The bulls were 0-6. The bulls "big 3" were brent barry, ron harper, and kukoc. There's no doubt in my mind that kukoc does better than bosh in toronto.

Nobody said Bosh was a top 5 player. But for the most part, he made a really bad Raptor team into a respectable team around .500 in contention for a lower playoff seed. That's what I expect a 2nd tier star to do.

I don't see Kukoc doing that, and I'm not really interested in all of this adjusting with per 36 minutes or whatever.

Bosh did average 19/8 last year in Miami, and didn't play as well as he did in Toronto in 2010. But that's pretty damn good when you consider he joined a team with a player who was coming off a 30/7/9 season and another who was coming off a 27/5/7 season.

He's simply a better player. And if it's about numbers, I don't see Kukoc averaging 24/11 or the SF equivalent of that, especially since Bosh was a much more efficient scorer.


Another point id like to refute is the notion that bosh is a "good" defender. You know why why bosh ie relegated to defending the weaker of the center or power forward? Cuz he not a good defender. I even heard someone say in the joel antony thread that bosh was miamis defensive anchor. What a joke.

I hate this attitude that man to man to defense is all that counts. Bosh is fine when not defending a player who can overpower him, he's mobile, versatile and a good pick and roll defender.

[97 bulls]

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry 12 championships

Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett 1 championship...


= your retarded logic...
This thread isn't about those four players. Its about rodman/pippen vs wade/bosh.

[guy]

Who exactly are the 4 HOFers other then Jordan on the Bulls?

[TheNaturalWR]

This thread isn't about those four players. Its about rodman/pippen vs wade/bosh.

Hey retard, his post meant your logic is RETARDED. Bringing out the rings argument is pathetic especially when NONE of them were the Finals MVP. That just shows how vital a number 1 option is over a number 2. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

He played fine in 2009. They lost to Orlando because Howard killed their big man and Lewis was a horrible match up for their 4s. Despite that, games 1 and 4 would've been Cavs wins if not for Lewis hitting game-winning/game-tying 3s in both games. And on top of that,, Lebron's didn't play as well as they should've offensively.

In 2010? He should've played much better those last 3 games vs Boston. I don't fault him for not winning a title, but he should've played better.

His team wasn't horrible like some make them out to be, but they weren't the most talented team in the league, and I wouldn't expect them to win a title with any other star.

The guarantee? I take that for what it is, Lebron getting carried away and making a stupid comment. He didn't deliver on that so you can clown on him all you want for that. Still shouldn't force him to re-sign there. I mean he's not going to deliver on the "not five, not six, not seven" thing and win 8 titles either.

If I was a Cav fan I may feel differently, though not because of that guarantee. Ewing did that several times in New York and didn't win a title, and I could care less that he'd guaranteed them.

He didn't "bail" when it got tough. He left when his contract was up. And I didn't see the reason then for him to re-sign with Cleveland. They didn't look to be set up beyond 2010 in good position to win titles.

He can't escape the pressure of winning in Miami, either. And we saw that get to him last summer. It's a lot more likely he will win, which puts more pressure on him if anything, especially as the failures pile up.



I never said he didn't have a good cast. And it is a fair point about them winning 55 games, but the '91-'93 Bulls didn't really have 4 hall of famers. They had Jordan and Pippen, and a borderline all-star as their 3rd best player(Grant), and I do think Grant was a good 3rd guy, and role players around them. Limited role players when it comes to talent, but they filled their roles and great coaching.

That's a good team, but there were other teams in the early 90's regarded as more talented and the current Miami Heat are also more talented. Not better, but more talented.

As far as the late 90's Bulls. They really had 3 hall of famers.



Nobody said Bosh was a top 5 player. But for the most part, he made a really bad Raptor team into a respectable team around .500 in contention for a lower playoff seed. That's what I expect a 2nd tier star to do.

I don't see Kukoc doing that, and I'm not really interested in all of this adjusting with per 36 minutes or whatever.

Bosh did average 19/8 last year in Miami, and didn't play as well as he did in Toronto in 2010. But that's pretty damn good when you consider he joined a team with a player who was coming off a 30/7/9 season and another who was coming off a 27/5/7 season.

He's simply a better player. And if it's about numbers, I don't see Kukoc averaging 24/11 or the SF equivalent of that, especially since Bosh was a much more efficient scorer.



I hate this attitude that man to man to defense is all that counts. Bosh is fine when not defending a player who can overpower him, he's mobile, versatile and a good pick and roll defender.
I don't see why kukoc couldn't do what bosh did with the raptors. As I said before, kukoc led the bulls to a 13 win season in 99. That's about 26% . The next best players on thatthe bulls teamto were a 35 year oldthe ron harper, brent barry, and mark bryant. Let's compare the raptors the year they won 30% of their games in 09. Bosh had mike james, jose calderon, mo pete, and charlie vilanueva. You don't think kukoc could've done better with those players?

Even with statistics. I agree kukoc wasn't a 24/11 type player. But he was good for 19/7/7 and a few allstar appearances if he didnt spend his prime on the bulls.

Its laughable that you can say bosh was a good defender as long as he's not having to guard someone that can overpower him. Even got so far as to say you dont like comparing man defense. But then call kukoc a bad defender. I could even say kukoc is a good defender as long as he isn't defending someone that can overpower him.

[97 bulls]

Who exactly are the 4 HOFers other then Jordan on the Bulls?
Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, and Winter. Kukoc will be there next year

[97 bulls]

Dwyane Wade would average 24-27 ppg on 48-50 % shooting in every era. He is a transcendent talent. Don't be stupid in thinking he' be some scrub in the 90's.

Guys like Penny, grant hill, Sprewell were all-NBA players in 90's and Wade is better than all those players.

Don't kid yourself.
Who said he'd be a scrub. Bond 1O said pippens defense shouldn't count due to era. If you penalize one era you must penalize the other

[guy]

Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, and Winter. Kukoc will be there next year

LOL what? Why are you even including Jackson and Winter? They're not players. Coaches of almost every championship team automatically get in. Actually, almost every coach thats been around for that long become HOFers.

Kukoc might not even be a HOFer even with his overseas career and even if he is, it is irrelevant cause he is definitely not getting in due to his NBA career.

[97 bulls]

Would Pippen be as good of a defender in the post-2005 era?
Absolutely. In fact better cuz he no longer would have to worry about illegal defense.

[97 bulls]

LOL what? Why are you even including Jackson and Winter? They're not players. Coaches of almost every championship team automatically get in. Actually, almost every coach thats been around for that long become HOFers.

Kukoc might not even be a HOFer even with his overseas career and even if he is, it is irrelevant cause he is definitely not getting in due to his NBA career.
Just like all players get in with the best stats? The benchmark for a coach is winning. Phil jackson is the greatest winner ever. Tex winter created the offense that won 11 championships. Their roles on their teams are extremely important and hof worthy. I've seen coaches cost their teams games as well as implement the game plan that wins games.

Kukoc is far more accomplished than sabonis and he got in. And most people acknowledge that had he been in a different situation, he would've been an allstar.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't see why kukoc couldn't do what bosh did with the raptors. As I said before, kukoc led the bulls to a 13 win season in 99. That's about 26% . The next best players on thatthe bulls teamto were a 35 year oldthe ron harper, brent barry, and mark bryant. Let's compare the raptors the year they won 30% of their games in 09. Bosh had mike james, jose calderon, mo pete, and charlie vilanueva. You don't think kukoc could've done better with those players?

:roll: This may be the first time in history that someone has used a 13 win season to prop up a player.

The '06 Raptors are the team you're referring to and they won 33% of their games, not 30%.

And if you're going to bring up the Bulls going 0-6 without Kukoc. The '06 Raptors were 1-11 without Bosh, so you still don't have a point. In fact, the disparity in win percentage doesn't get closer.

'06 Raptors with Bosh 26-44(37.1%)
'99 Bulls with Kukoc 13-31(29.5%)

And this was Toronto's WORST record during Bosh's all-star seasons. Bosh also became a better player after that, but even so, there's NOTHING to suggest Kukoc would've done any better.

13 win seasons(even in a 50 game season) is just bad, it's not an accomplishment. You can excuse it given the roster, but you don't brag about it or use it to say a player could've done this or that on another team.

Those type of seasons are years where you don't expect a team to do much worse. You're bound to win some games, particularly in a lockout season, winning 13 of them isn't an accomplishment, any way you twist it.


Even with statistics. I agree kukoc wasn't a 24/11 type player. But he was good for 19/7/7 and a few allstar appearances if he didnt spend his prime on the bulls.

I really can't believe you're trying to argue that Kukoc was as good/better than Bosh. You can talk about Kukoc's role all you want, but consider this.

Bosh simply isn't going to be a 6th man on any team. Why? Because there are very few players at his position better than him in the league. And the few teams who have had better PF in recent years wouldn't get Bosh in the first place.

Bosh even being in a 3rd option is extremely unusual in recent years. Think about big 3s in the 2000s and 2010s. Which teams had a 3rd option as talented/good as Bosh?


Its laughable that you can say bosh was a good defender as long as he's not having to guard someone that can overpower him. Even got so far as to say you dont like comparing man defense. But then call kukoc a bad defender. I could even say kukoc is a good defender as long as he isn't defending someone that can overpower him.

No, I was saying that man to man defense does some up someone's entire contributions defensively. And I was talking about Bosh not being able to a power player/center like Dwight. His man to man defense is fine otherwise and his overall team defense is good.

A good defensive player doesn't mean being able to guard any type of player. Bosh does a fine job vs most 4s and he's a good team defender. That's a solid defensive player overall.

Nobody said he didn't have any weaknesses.

Kukoc couldn't guard anyone and didn't contribute anything at that end.



Kukoc is far more accomplished than sabonis and he got in. And most people acknowledge that had he been in a different situation, he would've been an allstar.

Either way, it's trivial because Kukoc wasn't a hall of fame player based o his NBA play, which is all that matters when talking about how much help Jordan had.

[guy]

Just like all players get in with the best stats? The benchmark for a coach is winning. Phil jackson is the greatest winner ever. Tex winter created the offense that won 11 championships. Their roles on their teams are extremely important and hof worthy. I've seen coaches cost their teams games as well as implement the game plan that wins games.

Kukoc is far more accomplished than sabonis and he got in. And most people acknowledge that had he been in a different situation, he would've been an allstar.

Like I said, almost every championship team has HOF worthy coaches. You can say that about everyone then. Magic played with 1 more HOFer as well. Kobe and Shaq played with 2 more HOFers. No one uses coaches' HOF status to prop up how many HOFers someone played with, so I don't understand why you are.

Most people don't acknowledge that about Kukoc. He didn't do anything after the Bulls broke up. He averaged 19/7/5 on the worst team in the league at 30 years old despite no significant injuries at the point nor a huge decline in athleticism. And he's not more accomplished then Sabonis. Sabonis leading a gold medal team and beating the USA trumps anything Kukoc has done. And you saying that about Kukoc is like saying Pippen lost 4 years in a row playing with a HOFer in Sabonis.

[97 bulls]

:roll: This may be the first time in history that someone has used a 13 win season to prop up a player.

The '06 Raptors are the team you're referring to and they won 33% of their games, not 30%.

And if you're going to bring up the Bulls going 0-6 without Kukoc. The '06 Raptors were 1-11 without Bosh, so you still don't have a point. In fact, the disparity in win percentage doesn't get closer.

'06 Raptors with Bosh 26-44(37.1%)
'99 Bulls with Kukoc 13-31(29.5%)

And this was Toronto's WORST record during Bosh's all-star seasons. Bosh also became a better player after that, but even so, there's NOTHING to suggest Kukoc would've done any better.

13 win seasons(even in a 50 game season) is just bad, it's not an accomplishment. You can excuse it given the roster, but you don't brag about it or use it to say a player could've done this or that on another team.

Those type of seasons are years where you don't expect a team to do much worse. You're bound to win some games, particularly in a lockout season, winning 13 of them isn't an accomplishment, any way you twist it.



I really can't believe you're trying to argue that Kukoc was as good/better than Bosh. You can talk about Kukoc's role all you want, but consider this.

Bosh simply isn't going to be a 6th man on any team. Why? Because there are very few players at his position better than him in the league. And the few teams who have had better PF in recent years wouldn't get Bosh in the first place.

Bosh even being in a 3rd option is extremely unusual in recent years. Think about big 3s in the 2000s and 2010s. Which teams had a 3rd option as talented/good as Bosh?



No, I was saying that man to man defense does some up someone's entire contributions defensively. And I was talking about Bosh not being able to a power player/center like Dwight. His man to man defense is fine otherwise and his overall team defense is good.

A good defensive player doesn't mean being able to guard any type of player. Bosh does a fine job vs most 4s and he's a good team defender. That's a solid defensive player overall.

Nobody said he didn't have any weaknesses.

Kukoc couldn't guard anyone and didn't contribute anything at that end.



Either way, it's trivial because Kukoc wasn't a hall of fame player based o his NBA play, which is all that matters when talking about how much help Jordan had.
You said kukoc could never do what bosh did. My point was that with comparable talent/help, he could've done much better. Do you disagree?

[D-Wade316]

:roll: This may be the first time in history that someone has used a 13 win season to prop up a player.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[BarberSchool]

Pippen and Rodman.

[97 bulls]

Like I said, almost every championship team has HOF worthy coaches. You can say that about everyone then. Magic played with 1 more HOFer as well. Kobe and Shaq played with 2 more HOFers. No one uses coaches' HOF status to prop up how many HOFers someone played with, so I don't understand why you are.

Most people don't acknowledge that about Kukoc. He didn't do anything after the Bulls broke up. He averaged 19/7/5 on the worst team in the league at 30 years old despite no significant injuries at the point nor a huge decline in athleticism. And he's not more accomplished then Sabonis. Sabonis leading a gold medal team and beating the USA trumps anything Kukoc has done. And you saying that about Kukoc is like saying Pippen lost 4 years in a row playing with a HOFer in Sabonis.
What do you mean people don't include coaches? Aeuerbach isn't included on the 60s celtics? Riley for showtime? Popovich?

You don't acknowledge kukoc cuz you're one of those that act as if jordan didn't have as much help as other teams. That's a lie. And maybe you should do some research on kukoc. I havnt heard anyone say that kukoc wasn't an allstar caliber player if he had a bigger role with a team.

Kukocs croatian team would've beat that us team too. It was one of the best overseas teams ever. And kukoc was the catalyst. They had kukoc, radja, and petrovic. They would've easily won the gold had they not went up against the greatest team ever in all of sports.

[D-Wade316]

How many points per would wade avg if he played in the 90s?
27+ppg on 49+fg%

[guy]

What do you mean people don't include coaches? Aeuerbach isn't included on the 60s celtics? Riley for showtime? Popovich?

You don't acknowledge kukoc cuz you're one of those that act as if jordan didn't have as much help as other teams. That's a lie. And maybe you should do some research on kukoc. I havnt heard anyone say that kukoc wasn't an allstar caliber player if he had a bigger role with a team.

Kukocs croatian team would've beat that us team too. It was one of the best overseas teams ever. And kukoc was the catalyst. They had kukoc, radja, and petrovic. They would've easily won the gold had they not went up against the greatest team ever in all of sports.

In these discussions, nobody brings them up as HOFers great players played with. A big reason for that is cause coaches almost always get in if they've won a championship whether they deserve it or not. If the Heat win a few championships, Erik Spoelstra is considered a HOFer despite most people thinking he's not really a great coach. You see my point?

What happened after 98? He never made an all-star team. Wasn't even close and never had any consideration.

LOL at this assumption that the US would've lost against Croatia. How can anyone in their right mind assume that given how dominant they were and how behind the rest of the world was in basketball at the time? Most people think that if Sabonis had came to the NBA earlier he would've altered history in the NBA. Did Kukoc do that? Shit, an old injured Sabonis that came over in the mid-90s was better then Kukoc ever was in the NBA.

[Bigsmoke]

97 Bulls is funny :lol

[iDefend5]

:roll: This may be the first time in history that someone has used a 13 win season to prop up a player.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[97 bulls]

In these discussions, nobody brings them up as HOFers great players played with. A big reason for that is cause coaches almost always get in if they've won a championship whether they deserve it or not. If the Heat win a few championships, Erik Spoelstra is considered a HOFer despite most people thinking he's not really a great coach. You see my point?

What happened after 98? He never made an all-star team. Wasn't even close and never had any consideration.

LOL at this assumption that the US would've lost against Croatia. How can anyone in their right mind assume that given how dominant they were and how behind the rest of the world was in basketball at the time? Most people think that if Sabonis had came to the NBA earlier he would've altered history in the NBA. Did Kukoc do that? Shit, an old injured Sabonis that came over in the mid-90s was better thenc Kukoc ever was in the NBA.
Dude, comprehend. the reason the US allowed nba talent was due to russia beating the US in 88. Now unless you feel russia was good enough to beat the dream team, why hold it against kukoc?

Kukoc never made an allstar game cuz he spent most of his prime with the bulls. By 99 he was 30. Then hehe was tradedthe to phillythe with iverson. Who was a blackhole and they didn't mesh well. Then he moved on to atlanta. With altlanta, he finished that season avg 20/6/6 on 49%. Then he got hurt. By that time he was 33.

[guy]

Dude, comprehend. the reason the US allowed nba talent was due to russia beating the US in 88. Now unless you feel russia was good enough to beat the dream team, why hold it against kukoc?

Kukoc never made an allstar game cuz he spent most of his prime with the bulls. By 99 he was 30. Then hehe was tradedthe to phillythe with iverson. Who was a blackhole and they didn't mesh well. Then he moved on to atlanta. With altlanta, he finished that season avg 20/6/6 on 49%. Then he got hurt. By that time he was 33.

I'm not holding that against Kukoc. Sabonis was the leader of a gold medal team that beat the most dominant country of that sport even during that time. Kukoc was not and its ridiculously stupid to assume they would've beaten the US, even if they didn't have NBA talent. You also do realize that it was Kukoc's team that lost to Sabonis in the gold medal game right?

[ShaqAttack3234]

You said kukoc could never do what bosh did. My point was that with comparable talent/help, he could've done much better. Do you disagree?

Look at the first bolded part and then ask yourself if you even needed to ask the second bolded part.

Of course I disagree, I don't think he's getting the '07, '08 or '10 Raptors to equal/better records than Bosh did. I simply consider Bosh a better player, most would agree. I'm not even a Bosh fan either, never have been. It's just clear to me.

[97 bulls]

Look at the first bolded part and then ask yourself if you even needed to ask the second bolded part.

Of course I disagree, I don't think he's getting the '07, '08 or '10 Raptors to equal/better records than Bosh did. I simply consider Bosh a better player, most would agree. I'm not even a Bosh fan either, never have been. It's just clear to me.
Ignorance is bliss I guess. You dont want to believe it. There's no way you really can say that with better players and weaker competition like what the the raptor faced in the east, that kukocs record with the bulls doesn't improve. Your too good of a poster for that. I mean the bulls starting lineup was

Randy Brown
Ron Harper (35 year old harper)
Brent Barry
Kukoc
Mark Bryant

Wow.

[97 bulls]

I'm not holding that against Kukoc. Sabonis was the leader of a gold medal team that beat the most dominant country of that sport even during that time. Kukoc was not and its ridiculously stupid to assume they would've beaten the US, even if they didn't have NBA talent. You also do realize that it was Kukoc's team that lost to Sabonis in the gold medal game right?
Wait a minute, why is it rediculoulsy stupid? Kukoc was 19-20 years old during that 88 olympics. His croation team lost to the greatest team ever in 92. Theres no doubt in my mind that the 92 croatian team was better than the US mens team of 88. You think the 88 russian national team would've beat the dreamteam?

[guy]

Wait a minute, why is it rediculoulsy stupid? Kukoc was 19-20 years old during that 88 olympics. His croation team lost to the greatest team ever in 92. Theres no doubt in my mind that the 92 croatian team was better than the US mens team of 88. You think the 88 russian national team would've beat the dreamteam?

What the hell are you bringing up the dream team for? I'm not talking about them. Why is there no doubt in your mind they would've beaten the 88 team? This was 1988, not 2006. The foreign game was worlds behind the US at the time. Arvydas Sabonis was the only guy from overseas at the time that people thought could really dominate the US game as well. He is much more highly regarded in basketball history then Toni Kukoc.

[97 bulls]

What the hell are you bringing up the dream team for? I'm not talking about them. Why is there no doubt in your mind they would've beaten the 88 team? This was 1988, not 2006. The foreign game was worlds behind the US at the time. Arvydas Sabonis was the only guy from overseas at the time that people thought could really dominate the US game as well. He is much more highly regarded in basketball history then Toni Kukoc.
By 88, it was obvious that the world was good enough to beat the US amateurs. Which was why we sent the dreamteam in 92. Your saying that sabonis was better than kukoc cuz his russian team won the gold in 88. Im saying the croatian team that won the silver in 92, would've also won the gold in 88. But id agree that an uninjured prime sabonis was far better than kukoc.

[97 bulls]

Hey guy. In your opinion, which was worse. The blazers losing to the lakers in 00? Or the heat losing to dallas last year. And why

[guy]

Hey guy. In your opinion, which was worse. The blazers losing to the lakers in 00? Or the heat losing to dallas last year. And why

I don't know. On one hand the argument against the Heat is that they were at home and ended up losing in less games. On the other hand the argument against the Blazers is that that actually ended up deciding the series while in the Heat's case there was still plenty of the series left. I guess I'll go with the Heat cause they literally had two of the best players in the league and still let that happen. In the Blazers' case there was nowhere near anyone as good as Lebron or Wade, in fact the team they lost to clearly had the two best players between both teams in Shaq and Kobe. The Heat were also heavy favorites while the Blazers were not.

[Da_Realist]

Paxson didn't say that. And he scored all 9 points cuz he took all but 3 shots in the fourth. If I remember correct the bulls took 18 shots in that fourth quarter. Pippen took 2 shots paxson hit the game winner and jordan took the rest.

Can anyone who watched the whole fourth quarter tell me WHY MJ took all but 3 shots? It's clear as day.

[97 bulls]

Can anyone who watched the whole fourth quarter tell me WHY MJ took all but 3 shots? It's clear as day.
Im not arguing against jordan taking every shot. But the picture that's often painted somehow results in acting as if the bulls outside of jordan were 1-15 or something of that nature.

[97 bulls]

I don't know. On one hand the argument against the Heat is that they were at home and ended up losing in less games. On the other hand the argument against the Blazers is that that actually ended up deciding the series while in the Heat's case there was still plenty of the series left. I guess I'll go with the Heat cause they literally had two of the best players in the league and still let that happen. In the Blazers' case there was nowhere near anyone as good as Lebron or Wade, in fact the team they lost to clearly had the two best players between both teams in Shaq and Kobe. The Heat were also heavy favorites while the Blazers were not.
Fair assesment.