The Four Permanent Members of G.O.A.T. Discussion

[CavaliersFTW]

PERMANENT MEMBERS OF G.O.A.T. DISCUSSION

WILT - MJ - KAREEM - RUSSELL

****EDIT*****
This is not intended to be a "complete" closed list of GOAT candidates nor is it in any particular order!!!!!!!!! - ANYONE else you feel should be a GOAT candidate is fine - but that doesn't mean these guys aren't. That is the point I'm trying to make. These guys should always be in the discussion regardless of who else you have in the discussion.

This isn't in any kind of order - they just need to be there:

http://www.nba-pictures.net/data/media/108/Wilt-Chamberlain.jpg
Wilt - the MDE (most dominant ever). The rift between him and everyone else was so wide it boggles the mind - he dominated competition more than anyone in the history of the NBA and yes that includes Shaq - The record books - The positive impact he had on a developing NBA - The numerous basketball rule-book changes to stop him - and the almost unanimous testimony from his peers that he was the "best" strongest/most unstoppable/greatest individual athlete they've ever seen etc - It isn't about rings for Wilt (though he did finally win 2 rings as the clear-cut Finals MVP's). If he wasn't asked to change his game, he'd have a stupefying career ppg - If more stats were tracked he'd have even more mind boggling records. Changing his game for his teams doesn't hurt his reputation it helps it. He settled for what would eventually be a mere virtual ppg tie with MJ to get those 2 rings - he aint half bad. :lol



http://thebestten.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/michael_jordan.jpg
The second one is obvious to all IH fan's because he's the most recent on this list and I assume most people here are young but old enough to remember at least the 2nd 3-peat series. Two 3-peats have something to do with him being here, lol, and most importantly of all IMHO it was his "complete"-ness as a player. He had very few flaws you could ever exploit in the beginning of his career and the ones he did have he seemed to work at and correct until he really had none. The "complete" game he had and the intense will too win wasn't entirely new he took that page out of Oscar Robertson's book - The Big-O may have been the first "complete" player before MJ but... once those 6 rings instead of one and those individual accolades kept pouring in - MJ's "greatness" raised the bar for all non-centers... In addition to those 6 rings, statistically and defensively he's almost become the Wilt Chamberlain of NBA guards. Highest PPG average of all-time.



http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/bio_photos/kareem_abdul_jabbar.jpg
Kareem dominated at every level. Period. Skyhook, period. Another player that caused basketball rule changes. 3 straight HS championships 3 straight NCAA championships nearly undefeated, 6 NBA championships - countless individual accolades include most points in NBA history... Just wikipedia him to get the rough idea. Study his games on film, including his battle with Willis Reed in the 70's it's on youtube. You absolutely CAN NOT leave him out of the discussion. Among the most complete centers in NBA history with very few weaknesses to his game. He's literally every bit as dominant relative to his competition as Shaq was during his prime and that's something the younger IH members might not realize - the dominance relative to his peers of Shaq yet he accomplished a lot more than Shaq did - the amount of times he won basketball titles in his career are second only to the next guy.



http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/11/17/22041/nba-g-russell-400.jpg
Bill Russell. Yet another man shaping basketball's rules in order to slow him down. More rings than fingers. 2x NCAA champ, Olympic Gold Medalist, 11 rings in 13 NBA seasons. (that's 14 titles in 15 years...) The best winner in basketball history, period. The integral glue to the most dominant dynasty in NBA history, period. Among the most ruthless, intimidating psychologically superior defensive fortresses in the history of the NBA. He simply did whatever it took to help the Celtics win and he convinced himself, his teammates, and the league that the Celtics could not lose. Offensively he wasn't concerned, he had support to take care of that but he also produced when his team needed him too - this is often overlooked. Defensively in the low-post he was as close as anyone from that time to Wilt Chamberlain, and in the high post he was hands down the best by a wide margin. He and/or Wilt are the two best rebounding centers in NBA history, and Bill is the better playoff rebounder. Bill's game almost always elevated in the playoffs and finals. He'd be #1 or #2 in blocked shots of all time (competing with Wilt) if the stats were recorded, and he'd additionally have have more steals than most any NBA big man in history - as can be observed in archived newspaper stats - his agility and defense in the high-post can't be understated, he had Olympic potential as a track athlete. His defense and intangibles also cannot be overstated. He's probably the best defensive big man, perhaps even the best defensive player, in NBA history. These things absolutely outweighed his offensive value, if you don't think so just look at how much he won.



All four should always be GOAT candidates. You can add more if you'd like, but these four are cemented in the discussion and if they aren't you probably don't know enough NBA history to be trying to figure out who the Greatest Of ALL Time is.

[B]

Wilt doesn't have the post season success to be on that list

[stallionaire]

LeBron James.

[Doctor Rivers]

LeBron James.

+1

[Horatio33]

Magic instead of Wilt.

[lilgodfather1]

They won't be there forever, especially when the robots start playing. When Wilt Chamberbot starts putting up 1000000 point games, and putting up 50000ppg seasons Wilt Chamberlain will be a thing of the past.

Not to mention Micheal Botan wins 60 championships on two thirty peats MJ will be forgotten. And then of course Bot Russell will win 1100 championships in 1300 years, playing most of his career with Bot Cousy.

[stallionaire]

They won't be there forever, especially when the robots start playing. When Wilt Chamberbot starts putting up 1000000 point games, and putting up 50000ppg seasons Wilt Chamberlain will be a thing of the past.

Not to mention Micheal Botan wins 60 championships on two thirty peats MJ will be forgotten. And then of course Bot Russell will win 1100 championships in 1300 years, playing most of his career with Bot Cousy.

:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=B

[hops and stops]

No Kobe Bryant?? I dont like this list.

=)

[Whoah10115]

It's not my list and they don't need to be there. Magic is better than all of them bar Michael. I don't get the way Kareem is rated (not because he's not good enough), but considering how others are rated...



I also have Larry Bird ahead of the three centers. That's me tho.

[B]

Magic didn't play Bill Russell


You're correct he didn't. Wilt did though and failed every single time so how can you have Wilt in a discussion for GOAT when he's going up against the very guy in Russell who knocked him down time and time again.

BTW I never mentioned Magic. Not sure why you started your post off that way

[caliman]

Magic instead of Wilt.


this

[FKAri]

They won't be there forever, especially when the robots start playing. When Wilt Chamberbot starts putting up 1000000 point games, and putting up 50000ppg seasons Wilt Chamberlain will be a thing of the past.

Not to mention Micheal Botan wins 60 championships on two thirty peats MJ will be forgotten. And then of course Bot Russell will win 1100 championships in 1300 years, playing most of his career with Bot Cousy.

Aliens >>> Robots.

More creative; adapt better to different defenses; Cthulu may not have the bots' power but he still has the quickness to get him a 132 inch vertical in 10x Earth's gravity.

Michael Jordan, who? Weak era playing with unathletic humans.

[Sarcastic]

[QUOTE=B

[CavaliersFTW]

Magic instead of Wilt.

Nobody replaces those 4, if you don't know why learn about them. That's not saying Magic cant be discussed with them he certainly can - but he isn't replacing anyone on that list that was the point of it - it isn't a list of the "only" GOAT candidates it's just a list of ones IH member's - such as yourself - should not be dismissing.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt? :roll: :roll:
:facepalm

[B]

They played 5 on 5, not 1 on 1. In just the H2H matchups, Wilt pretty much trounced him almost all the time. So Russell did not beat the Wilt. The Celtics beat the Warriors.
oh lord one of these people. Spare me

[BGriffin's Dad]

Love ya Wilt and Russell... but real talk, my top 4 are

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird

in that order

[CavaliersFTW]

No Kobe Bryant?? I dont like this list.

=)

Kobe's career isn't finished yet - and this isn't a list of the "only" GOAT candidates, it's the ones that IH members keep habitually leaving out of discussions because they just don't bother to go back that far in time in NBA history and understand the "greatness" these guys have (well, Jordan is pretty well understood). These four need to be permanently in the discussions for GOAT yet 15-30 year old IH member's don't really have a good gauge on them even if they think they do. Anyone who dismisses any one of these guys needs to really do a lot more research on NBA history and the impact these guys made and the success they had even if their name was Wilt Chamberlain.

[oolalaa]

Good thread, but I feel compelled to correct you. There are only 3 players worthy of GOAT consideration; Jordan, Russell, and the guy you inexplicably left out - the one who saved Kareem's legacy, Magic Johnson.

Wilts post season failures disqualify him from the discussion. Yes, some weren't his fault, but there were a little too many for my liking. He may be the most dominant ever, but that doesn't make him the best.

[CavaliersFTW]

Love ya Wilt and Russell... but real talk, my top 4 are

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird

in that order

Doesn't know anything about the NBA before the 1980's :rolleyes:

[CavaliersFTW]

Good thread, but I feel compelled to correct you. There are only 3 players worthy of GOAT discussion; Jordan, Russell, and the guy you inexplicably left out - the one who saved Kareem's legacy, Magic Johnson.

Wilts post season failures disqualify him from the discussion. Yes, some weren't his fault, but there were a little too many for my liking. He may be the most dominant ever, but that doesn't make him the best.

Kareem had a dominant legacy started before he ever dawned a Laker's Jersey.

:no:

He won as finals MVP w/o Magic - he has more rings than Magic

This is the problem - not one person who leaves these guys out seems to understand anything about the NBA before the 1980's. At least say so if that's the case. If your GOAT list is based on you going back to a certain point in NBA years than fine - but your excluding guys that have done way more than Magic Johnson... IE Kareem

[HurricaneKid]

So much stupid it hurts. Kobe and Magic above Wilt? GTFO. Now.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How is Chamberlain above Johnson, Bird, O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, and Mikan?
Explain please with facts not tall tales

[All Net]

I would personally have Magic ahead of Wilt but good read none the less.

[Deuce Bigalow]

So much stupid it hurts. Kobe and Magic above Wilt? GTFO. Now.
Wilt played in an inferior era and only won 2 championships

Magic - 5 championships
Kobe - 5 championships
Mikan - 5 championships
Duncan - 4 championships
Sahq - 4 championships
Bird - 3 championships

I'm sorry regular season stats in a inferior era doesn't make up for his failures in the Playoffs

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=B

[oolalaa]

Kareem had a dominant legacy before he ever dawned a Laker's Jersey.

:no:

This is the problem - not one person who leaves this guys out seems to know anything about the NBA before the 1980's

lmao :roll:

So I don't know anything about the NBA before the 80s?? I just said to you, I have Russell firmly in the GOAT discussion AND I rank Jerry West above Kobe.


Kareem had a dominant legacy before Magic arrived?

He won 1 ring and missed the playoffs 2 years in a row.....in his absolute prime. He was clearly the best/most dominant player throughout the leagues weakest era (post 50s). He didn't translate that domination into as much team success as you'd expect.

He was struggling to lead his team to the conference finals in the late 70s and was getting blown out when he got there. And in case you forgot, the year Magic arrived, L.A won the title.

Ye, he won 5 MVPs, but I'm sure his career would be looked at as a disappointment if Magic didn't come along when he did.

[CavaliersFTW]

How is Chamberlain above Johnson, Bird, O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, and Mikan?
Explain please with facts not tall tales

:facepalm

It isn't a "complete" and closed list - it isn't in order - it's just players who IH members like yourself don't care about or consider but probably should. You can have whoever you want as your GOAT - the four I listed are players that should be in the discussion in addition to them - that is all.

[rodman91]

How is Chamberlain above Johnson, Bird, O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, and Mikan?
Explain please with facts not tall tales

If Wilt isn't above them..Russell isn't as well. And don't tell me Mikan. In his time people were thinking tall players can't play basketball :roll:

[TheMan]

Fixed


PERMANENT MEMBERS OF G.O.A.T. DISCUSSION
http://a57.foxnews.com/img.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/Jeremy_Lin_Knicks.jpg

Jeremy Lin, nuff said

WILT - MJ - KAREEM - RUSSELL

This isn't in any kind of order - they just need to be there:

http://www.nba-pictures.net/data/media/108/Wilt-Chamberlain.jpg
Wilt - the MDE (most dominant ever). The rift between him and everyone else was so wide it boggles the mind - he dominated competition more than anyone in the history of the NBA and yes that includes Shaq - The record books - The positive impact he had on a developing NBA - The numerous basketball rule-book changes to stop him - and the almost unanimous testimony from his peers that he was the "best" strongest/most unstoppable/greatest individual athlete they've ever seen etc - It isn't about rings for Wilt (though he did finally win 2 rings as the clear-cut Finals MVP's). If he wasn't asked to change his game, he'd have a stupefying career ppg - If more stats were tracked he'd have even more mind boggling records. Changing his game for his teams doesn't hurt his reputation it helps it. He settled for what would eventually be a mere virtual ppg tie with MJ to get those 2 rings - he aint half bad. :lol



http://thebestten.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/michael_jordan.jpg
The second one is obvious to all IH fan's because he's the most recent on this list and I assume most people here are young but old enough to remember at least the 2nd 3-peat series. Two 3-peats have something to do with him being here, lol, and most importantly of all IMHO it was his "complete"-ness as a player. He had very few flaws you could ever exploit in the beginning of his career and the ones he did have he seemed to work at and correct until he really had none. The "complete" game he had and the intense will too win wasn't entirely new he took that page out of Oscar Robertson's book - The Big-O may have been the first "complete" player before MJ but... once those 6 rings instead of one and those individual accolades kept pouring in - MJ's "greatness" raised the bar for all non-centers... In addition to those 6 rings, statistically and defensively he's almost become the Wilt Chamberlain of NBA guards. Highest PPG average of all-time.



http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/bio_photos/kareem_abdul_jabbar.jpg
Kareem dominated at every level. Period. Skyhook, period. Another player that caused basketball rule changes. 3 straight HS championships 3 straight NCAA championships nearly undefeated, 6 NBA championships - countless individual accolades include most points in NBA history... Just wikipedia him to get the rough idea. Study his games on film, including his battle with Willis Reed in the 70's it's on youtube. You absolutely CAN NOT leave him out of the discussion. Among the most complete centers in NBA history with very few weaknesses to his game. He's literally every bit as dominant relative to his competition as Shaq was during his prime and that's something the younger IH members might not realize - the dominance relative to his peers of Shaq yet he accomplished a lot more than Shaq did - the amount of times he won basketball titles in his career are second only to the next guy.



http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/11/17/22041/nba-g-russell-400.jpg
Bill Russell. Yet another man shaping basketball's rules in order to slow him down. More rings than fingers. 2x NCAA champ, Olympic Gold Medalist, 11 rings in 13 NBA seasons. (that's 14 titles in 15 years...) The best winner in basketball history, period. The integral glue to the most dominant dynasty in NBA history, period. Among the most ruthless, intimidating psychologically superior defensive fortresses in the history of the NBA. He simply did whatever it took to help the Celtics win and he convinced himself, his teammates, and the league that the Celtics could not lose. Offensively he wasn't concerned, he had support to take care of that but he also produced when his team needed him too - this is often overlooked. Defensively in the low-post he was as close as anyone from that time to Wilt Chamberlain, and in the high post he was hands down the best by a wide margin. He and/or Wilt are the two best rebounding centers in NBA history, and Bill is the better playoff rebounder. Bill's game almost always elevated in the playoffs and finals. He'd be #1 or #2 in blocked shots of all time (competing with Wilt) if the stats were recorded, and he'd additionally have have more steals than most any NBA big man in history - as can be observed in archived newspaper stats - his agility and defense in the high-post can't be understated, he had Olympic potential as a track athlete. His defense and intangibles also cannot be overstated. He's probably the best defensive big man, perhaps even the best defensive player, in NBA history. These things absolutely outweighed his offensive value, if you don't think so just look at how much he won.



All four should always be GOAT candidates. You can add more if you'd like, but these four are cemented in the discussion and if they aren't you probably don't know enough NBA history to be trying to figure out who the Greatest Of ALL Time is.

[CavaliersFTW]

Fixed

:lol

make that 5 - muh bad!

[rodman91]

Wilt played in an inferior era and only won 2 championships

Magic - 5 championships
Kobe - 5 championships
Mikan - 5 championships
Duncan - 4 championships
Bird - 3 championships

I'm sorry regular season stats in a inferior era doesn't make up for his failures in the Playoffs

Pippen: 6 championships.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Pippen: 6 championships.
You're so smart. You forgot Horry - 7

[alenleomessi]

MJ,Kareem,Bird,Magic

[CavaliersFTW]

You're so smart. You forgot Horry - 7

Satch Sanders 9 rings.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Satch Sanders 9 rings.
yeah because he is on a Shaq/Kareem/Magic/Kobe/Bird level yup good job

[bwink23]

RINGS is probably one of the most LAME arguments of all time. Oscar Robertson didn't get a ring until teaming with Jabbar, no one questions his abilities. Your impact on the game on and off the court and the total respect of your peers as the best player is far more important than the team accomplishments.

[Legends66NBA7]

I agree with OP on those 4.

They are all at that level of GOAT discussion for the majority of their prime.

I would also consider Magic and Bird too. And at his absolute prime/peak, Shaq might be in that argument as well, IMO.

[B]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Spare this dude because the game is CLEARLY 5 on 1.... well, at least in the league he watches :confusedshrug: right?

Then WhyTF have a GOAT thread? You want to argue GOAT but fall back on basketball is a team game when one of your GOAT candidates is being disqualified for post season failure.

Pick a lane and stay in it, either rings and post season success count or it doesn't. Your clearly stated ring totals in your OP but once that's used against Wilt you say it's a team sport and that Wilt's lack of numbers in the post season shouldn't be used against him.

[Legends66NBA7]

RINGS is probably one of the most LAME arguments of all time. Oscar Robertson didn't get a ring until teaming with Jabbar, no one questions his abilities. Your impact on the game on and off the court and the total respect of your peers as the best player is far more important than the team accomplishments.

Yes, context matters, but for these 4 players right here... they are more than above it.

Chamberlain might have 2 rings, but he anchored 2 of the greatest teams of all-time with his brilliant dominance.

Kareem's longevity is incredible and become the oldest Finals MVP (probably has 3 in reality) ever and was one 3 of the greatest teams of all-time, IMO.

Jordan off course went 6 for 6 (as well winning Finals MVP 6 times) and absolutely dominated his first 3. 4th one he came down to earth by a lot from 91-93 standards and the last 2 had some epic moments, but not exactly the same level of 91-93.

Russell is the only common player of all 11 titles. He is considered the best player of the finals in 8 or 9 of those title runs and 9 of those titles he was the best player. He even player coached the final 2 championship teams to titles. If Finals MVP existed from the beginning of his career, he would clearly have the most of anybody (hence the Finals MVP's name is after him).

I do recall Oscar's name being part of GOAT discussion by his peers though...

[Deuce Bigalow]

RINGS is probably one of the most LAME arguments of all time. Oscar Robertson didn't get a ring until teaming with Jabbar, no one questions his abilities. Your impact on the game on and off the court and the total respect of your peers as the best player is far more important than the team accomplishments.
:facepalm

[B]

RINGS is probably one of the most LAME arguments of all time. Oscar Robertson didn't get a ring until teaming with Jabbar, no one questions his abilities. Your impact on the game on and off the court and the total respect of your peers as the best player is far more important than the team accomplishments.Lebron fan?

Rings count because
A. It's why they play the games and when discussing GOAT its a determining factor in separating the talented player and the winning player.
and
B. In basketball one player can have such a massive effect on both ends of the floor.
This isn't football where a QB has zero impact when the defense is on the field. A QB can have the game of his life and still losses because his defense had the worst game of the season.

In basketball a player like MJ can control every aspect of the game because of his skill set on offense and defense, it makes life easier for his team as he carries the load, suddenly the guy who was a 30% shooter is a 40% shooter from behind the arc because that GOAT player is commanding all the attention.

[bwink23]

[QUOTE=B

[LakersReign]

The very fact that the OP started a GOAT thread, then turned right around and tried to include Lin, only after a few games. Tells me all I need to know about his level of understanding of the game. He really has none.:no:







Moving on

[bwink23]

The very fact that the OP started a GOAT thread, then turned right around and tried to include Lin, only after a few games. Tells me all I need to know about his level of understanding of the game. He really has none.:no:







Moving on

That was a JOKE you damn baffoon!!!! :hammerhead:


Another quality post from the makers of LakersReign, Make it REIGN Lakers REIGN!!!

[CavaliersFTW]

The very fact that the OP started a GOAT thread, then turned right around and tried to include Lin, only after a few games. Tells me all I need to know about his level of understanding of the game. He really has none.:no:







Moving on

It was a joke pal :hammerhead:

[Odinn]

I don't think Wilt doesn't belong there.
Permanent Members of G.O.A.T. Discussion
If I'm going to use that adjective, I say there would be 3 names. Not 4.
Kareem, Jordan, Russell.

[LakersReign]

It was a joke pal :hammerhead:

Yeah....sure....uh huh....right. Of course it was AFTER you made yourself look stupid:rolleyes:





Try again:no:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah....sure....uh huh....right. Of course it was AFTER you made yourself look stupid:rolleyes:





Try again:no:

:facepalm

notsureifsrs

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't think Wilt doesn't belong there.
Permanent Members of G.O.A.T. Discussion
If I'm going to use that adjective, I say there would be 3 names. Not 4.
Kareem, Jordan, Russell.

Yeah, I don't disagree with this notion either.

[La Frescobaldi]

[QUOTE=B

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't think Wilt doesn't belong there.
Permanent Members of G.O.A.T. Discussion
If I'm going to use that adjective, I say there would be 3 names. Not 4.
Kareem, Jordan, Russell.

Wilt has as many entrees in the NBA record books as those guys have in their entire collective accolades. The rift between his individual basketball talent and everyone else is absolutely massive. He has 2 rings from MVP and MVP worthy seasons that he was Finals MVP for both times as he commanded two of the greatest teams in NBA history. His the rings are certainly much fewer in # than the other 3 I mentioned but they are but a complimentary piece of reasoning why Wilt is in the discussion. Out of all his peers and contemporaries that were involved in his era and that still are involved in the NBA today, he simply awestruck them with his basketball ability and to this day they talk about him almost unanimously as the greatest player of both his generation and the generations that followed. Inside hoops is mostly a young fanbase - they see rings as greatness. And they use his stats against him whether he had a lot or a little. If he had a lot he was a "stat-hog" if he had a little he was "choking" - neither is true in the context of his time. He was just flat out the MDE - asked to change his role on several teams.

Being the MDE means your a permanent member of the GOAT discussion.

[RRR3]

How come lakers reign posts normally sometimes and then rants others. He's a lunatic. Bet he won't even address this I already posted a link showing he either bipolar or trolling

[rodman91]

Only permanent member : Jordan. Greatest stats,records,championships in modern basketball. He had 6 championships in his last 6 seasons as Bulls player. 6 FMVPs and clear cut best player in the league.Jordan killed competition in 90's. Only Shaq had similar seasons for 3 seasons since Jordan retired.

If we are going with being better player, Wilt & Russell doesn't belong there. Players couldn't even use their left hand back then. Wilt was having 50 & 25 season. Rookie PG had 30,10&10 season.Russel had 14 ppg (44%) in such era.Also he was playing with best players in league with a few teams.

Kareem has better case than Wilt & Russell.However he wasn't even best player in his later championships.He has 2 FMVP in 5 championships.

People are trying hard to make a discussion. There is no other player has better overall impact,success,skills than Jordan.

Jordan is at top 3 in every list about greatest athletes of all time. (others are Ali,Ruth)

[bwink23]

:facepalm

notsureifsrs


He's serious alright....seriously RETARDED....:hammerhead:

[CavaliersFTW]

Only permanent member : Jordan. Greatest stats,records,championships in modern basketball. He had 6 championships in his last 6 seasons as Bulls player. 6 FMVPs and clear cut best player in the league.Jordan killed competition in 90's. Only Shaq had similar seasons for 3 seasons since Jordan retired.

If we are going with being better player, Wilt & Russell doesn't belong there. Players couldn't even use their left hand back then. Wilt was having 50 & 25 season. Rookie PG had 30,10&10 season.Russel had 14 ppg (44%) in such era.Also he was playing with best players in league with a few teams.

Kareem has better case than Wilt & Russell.However he wasn't even best player in his later championships.He has 2 FMVP in 5 championships.

People are trying hard to make a discussion. There is no other player has better overall impact,success,skills than Jordan.

Jordan is at top 3 in every list about greatest athletes of all time. (others are Ali,Ruth)

Brainwashed.

[CavaliersFTW]

If we are going with being better player, Wilt & Russell doesn't belong there. [B]Players couldn't even use their left hand back then. Wilt was having 50 & 25 season. Rookie PG had 30,10&10 season.Russel had 14 ppg (44%) in such era.Also he was playing with best players in league with a few teams.

Kareem has better case than Wilt & Russell.However he wasn't even best player in his later championships.He has 2 FMVP in 5 championships.




Oh... no left hand? :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMq-eX_pNw

And Wilt played against MVP Kareem, and dominated him individually in the '71 series and carried his crippled Laker's much farther than the sum of their parts against the most dominant team in NBA history - the '71 Bucks - despite being 10 years older than Kareem :facepalm Or did you forget that Kareem played against Wilt? - sounds like the NBA only existed from 1980 and on, right?

[The_Yearning]

Where the hell is Kobe? And whose the first and last clown?

[CavaliersFTW]

Where the hell is Kobe? And whose the first and last clown?

Read the **EDIT** in the topic... incomplete list, not a closed list. Those listed are simply 4 players that should always be in GOAT discussions. Doesn't mean they're the only ones that should always be in discussion. You can build your case for a variety of other players. Also note I haven't ranked these guys or tried to put them in a particular order I'm just saying they should always be in the discussion. I like Kobe, I personally wait for active players to finish their career's before ranking in "GOAT" list but hey - your more than free to anchor him in your GOAT discussions as a permanent fixture he's got 5 rings he's doin a good job - no big deal.

[PTB Fan]

Other candidates IMO:

Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Julius Erving, Jerry West and Larry Bird.

HM: Kobe in the near future joins this list.

Note: I'd add Elgin Baylor, but he might not get accepted on the list because of no rings. I have him as the lowest member of the list.. because i think he was a true legend.

Note 2: LeBron James is also another choice when he ends his career of basketball.

[brandonislegend]

Nobody replaces those 4, if you don't know why learn about them. That's not saying Magic cant be discussed with them he certainly can - but he isn't replacing anyone on that list that was the point of it - it isn't a list of the "only" GOAT candidates it's just a list of ones IH member's - such as yourself - should not be dismissing.

Says some guy on Insidehoops...

Who the **** are you?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

I think Wilt has to be in the discussion. I never seen him play, but he is in that Babe Ruth category imo.

[rodman91]

Oh... no left hand? :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMq-eX_pNw

And Wilt played against MVP Kareem, and dominated him individually in the '71 series and carried his crippled Laker's much farther than the sum of their parts against the most dominant team in NBA history - the '71 Bucks - despite being 10 years older than Kareem :facepalm Or did you forget that Kareem played against Wilt? - sounds like the NBA only existed from 1980 and on, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IVwA3VOKV4U#t=269s

:roll:

[La Frescobaldi]

Only permanent member : Jordan. Greatest stats,records,championships in modern basketball. He had 6 championships in his last 6 seasons as Bulls player. 6 FMVPs and clear cut best player in the league.Jordan killed competition in 90's. Only Shaq had similar seasons for 3 seasons since Jordan retired.

If we are going with being better player, Wilt & Russell doesn't belong there. Players couldn't even use their left hand back then. Wilt was having 50 & 25 season. Rookie PG had 30,10&10 season.Russel had 14 ppg (44%) in such era.Also he was playing with best players in league with a few teams.

Kareem has better case than Wilt & Russell.However he wasn't even best player in his later championships.He has 2 FMVP in 5 championships.

People are trying hard to make a discussion. There is no other player has better overall impact,success,skills than Jordan.

Jordan is at top 3 in every list about greatest athletes of all time. (others are Ali,Ruth)

Did you watch Chamberlain & Russell? Ever see them actually play a game that was in doubt?

[rodman91]

Did you watch Chamberlain & Russell? Ever see them actually play a game that was in doubt?

Yeah, i have seen enough of their primitive skills. They are greats of their time. Jurassic Age of basketball.

Come on.. George Mikan was considered he can't play basketball because he is too tall. It was just 10 years ago before Wilt & Russell's era. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IVwA3VOKV4U#t=269s

:roll:

:roll:

Oh wait...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnSEwXP_5gc&t=15m25s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWRmCBYymM0&t=13m51s

:hammerhead:

[CavaliersFTW]

Yeah, i have seen enough of their primitive skills. They are greats of their time. Jurassic Age of basketball.

Come on.. George Mikan was considered he can't play basketball because he is too tall. It was just 10 years ago before Wilt & Russell's era. :oldlol:

He's "seen enough!"

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

[La Frescobaldi]

Yeah, i have seen enough of their primitive skills. They are greats of their time. Jurassic Age of basketball.

Come on.. George Mikan was considered he can't play basketball because he is too tall. It was just 10 years ago before Wilt & Russell's era. :oldlol:

No........ not youtube clips or NBA Golden Classics of the 60s. Did you actually watch them play a game, either live or on TV? When you didn't already know the final score?

It's easy to bash their skills, anybody can have that junior-high kind of view. They played 50 years ago. Of course nobody had skills polished by a half a century of study.
If it was Kobe Bryant on those old youtube clips instead of Oscar Robertson, you'd be slamming KB24 because he can't even do a simple crossover or palm the ball whenever he wanted to switch hands. When 20 years go by and the NBA goes back to physical basketball, people will be slamming Kobe & D Wade because they played in a primitive era of no contact.

There's a reason why they're in everybody's top 10. Even Bill Simmons who hates Chamberlain ranks the guy extremely high.
You gotta go deeper dude, study the game more before you make such a unqualified attack on those guys.

[CavaliersFTW]

Says some guy on Insidehoops...

Who the **** are you?

...i'm you 10 years in the future

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/16900841/view/1/producttypecolor/386/type/png/width/280/height/280/women-s-standardweight-dun-dun-duuuun_design.png

[Odinn]

OP's saying like;
Schumacher, Senna, Prost and Fangio "The Four Permanent Members of G.O.A.T. F1 driver Discussion".

No, Fangio doesn't belong there. The same with Wilt. Russell is there because he is the g.o.a.t. winner.

Actually Fangio has a better chance to be called goat F1 driver than calling Wilt goat basketball player.

[Champ]

It's not my list and they don't need to be there. Magic is better than all of them bar Michael. I don't get the way Kareem is rated (not because he's not good enough), but considering how others are rated...



I also have Larry Bird ahead of the three centers. That's me tho.

Funny thing about Bird was that he was the consensus GOAT until Jordan came along.

Using that logic, he should be somewhere on this list, but over the years his reputation has been somewhat recast by stat mongers overly focused on career numbers.

[rodman91]

No........ not youtube clips or NBA Golden Classics of the 60s. Did you actually watch them play a game, either live or on TV? When you didn't already know the final score?

It's easy to bash their skills, anybody can have that junior-high kind of view. They played 50 years ago. Of course nobody had skills polished by a half a century of study.
If it was Kobe Bryant on those old youtube clips instead of Oscar Robertson, you'd be slamming KB24 because he can't even do a simple crossover or palm the ball whenever he wanted to switch hands. When 20 years go by and the NBA goes back to physical basketball, people will be slamming Kobe & D Wade because they played in a primitive era of no contact.

There's a reason why they're in everybody's top 10. Even Bill Simmons who hates Chamberlain ranks the guy extremely high.
You gotta go deeper dude, study the game more before you make such a unqualified attack on those guys.

If i could able to watch them on live,i would be 70 years old now. :hammerhead:

If they don't have polished skills they don't deserve to be on GOAT level. They were greats of their time. I agree with that part. If it's just about accomplishments and stats then okay, they deserve to be at high. But still Jordan's overall success & stats > Wilt,Kareem or Russell's.

Just because they played in first years of NBA, doesn't make those players greater than Hakeem,Shaq or Duncan for me.Based on success,yes.But as players no.

[CavaliersFTW]

Funny thing about Bird was that he was the consensus GOAT until Jordan came along.

Using that logic, he should be somewhere on this list, but over the years his reputation has been somewhat recast by stat mongers overly focused on career numbers.

Another funny thing about Larry Bird is that he thinks Wilt is the GOAT...

[CavaliersFTW]

If i could able to watch them on live,i would be 70 years old now. :hammerhead:

If they don't have polished skills they don't deserve to be on GOAT level. They were greats of their time. I agree with that part. If it's just about accomplishments and stats then okay, they deserve to be at high. But still Jordan's overall success & stats > Wilt,Kareem or Russell's.

Just because they played in first years of NBA, doesn't make those players greater than Hakeem,Shaq or Duncan for me.Based on success,yes.But as players no.

Let's all play a game where we apply rodman91's logic that dismisses the past - into different contexts:

I'll start.

"Alexander The Great" can't be a GOAT candidate as a leader because guys like George W. Bush does stuff more polished due to his modern military, education, and other modern developmental perks. Alexander prob did dumb primitive shit like bathe in ice cold streams and command his armies with unpolished combat techniques that used primitive swords and spears - wat a dayum fool clearly he can't be da greatest, way less polished combat than a sniper rifle or a precision guided missile! - This logic is totally awesome and true. Modern polished skills are the key to greatness - history is dumb cuz it's all so unpolished!

:hammerhead:

brilliant logic - you da man rodman!

[Champ]

Another funny thing about Larry Bird is that he thinks Wilt is the GOAT...

Really?

I always thought he felt it was Rick Robey.

[Mach_3]

:lol
Only permanent member : Jordan. Greatest stats,records,championships in modern basketball. He had 6 championships in his last 6 seasons as Bulls player. 6 FMVPs and clear cut best player in the league.Jordan killed competition in 90's. Only Shaq had similar seasons for 3 seasons since Jordan retired.

If we are going with being better player, Wilt & Russell doesn't belong there. Players couldn't even use their left hand back then. Wilt was having 50 & 25 season. Rookie PG had 30,10&10 season.Russel had 14 ppg (44%) in such era.Also he was playing with best players in league with a few teams.

Kareem has better case than Wilt & Russell.However he wasn't even best player in his later championships.He has 2 FMVP in 5 championships.

People are trying hard to make a discussion. There is no other player has better overall impact,success,skills than Jordan.

Jordan is at top 3 in every list about greatest athletes of all time. (others are Ali,Ruth)


Shooting percentages back then were affected by the conditions of the arena. I remember once reading about Wilt who was talking about how it was so cold in the arena that he could see his own breath! Uneven hardwood floors, uneven basketballs, the ball being as hard as a brick etc. Imagine players today playing in conditions like that, it be hilarious to see how terrible players would be shooting

[Champ]

:lol


Shooting percentages back then were affected by the conditions of the arena. I remember once reading about Wilt who was talking about how it was so cold in the arena that he could see his own breath! Uneven hardwood floors, uneven basketballs, the ball being as hard as a brick etc. Imagine players today playing in conditions like that, it be hilarious to see how terrible players would be shooting

Good point, and often overlooked. It's fascinating to watch the ebb and flow of shooting percentages through the decades.

[NumberSix]

I'm not really one for GOAT lists, but to me the only 2 players in the discussion are Wilt and MJ. If you think otherwise, you really just don't get it.


BTW, Sam Jones.... 10 rings........ And before some uninformed 15 year old says he was just some "role player", he was the leading scorer on championship Celtic teams and STILL in the top 15 playoff scorers of all time.

[Mach_3]

Good point, and often overlooked. It's fascinating to watch the ebb and flow of shooting percentages through the decades.

Exactly half the players in the league today b1tch and moan about *only* getting paid millions, thats why i love 80s and 90s ball, everybody played like it was their absolute last game :rockon:

[-23-]

:roll:

Oh wait...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnSEwXP_5gc&t=15m25s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWRmCBYymM0&t=13m51s

:hammerhead:


A highlight film, and they still can't dribble with their left hand. :oldlol:

Magic replaces Wilt. You ever see Magic's W/L over the regular season? He WINS games. Wilt is a wilted loser.

[LABean]

Where's Kobe "The GOAT" Bean Bryant? :wtf:

Awful list. :facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

A highlight film, and they still can't dribble with their left hand. :oldlol:

Magic replaces Wilt. You ever see Magic's W/L over the regular season? He WINS games. Wilt is a wilted loser.

dis cat thinks Kareem and Wilt - 2 of the most dominant centers in the history of the NBA - should be dribbling with their left hand.

Brah.... you ignorant :lol

Pewny 6'0 guards didn't rule the 60's and 70's who the flippidy f_ck cares about a left hand if your destroying people in the low post...

Legit HOF'er 7 footers owned that era :rockon:

Centers today like JaFail Mcgee and Joel Anthony have an infinitesimally small fraction of the skillset that Wilt and Kareem possessed. The-back-to-the-basket low-post game must be so far removed from your date of birth that you don't even recognize it. LMFAO that you think dribbling with your left hand has got ANYTHING to do with being a dominant 7'1+ low-post center :roll:

Get back to me when JaFail starts droppin skyhooks or fade-aways and then you can tell me that era isn't up to par :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Where's Kobe "The GOAT" Bean Bryant? :wtf:

Awful list. :facepalm

It's not a list!

It isn't ranked, it isn't closed or exclusive, all it is is a mention of 4 guys that should "be in the discussion" - add whoever else you want - I've got no issue with it I just think those 4 guys should be in it too!

:cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol


Shooting percentages back then were affected by the conditions of the arena. I remember once reading about Wilt who was talking about how it was so cold in the arena that he could see his own breath! Uneven hardwood floors, uneven basketballs, the ball being as hard as a brick etc. Imagine players today playing in conditions like that, it be hilarious to see how terrible players would be shooting
:roll: I think I heard this from jlauber before

[TheBigVeto]

Russell, Jabbar and Jordan.
That's it.

Kobe and Magic don't belong in the GOAT discussion.

[Deuce Bigalow]

dis cat thinks Kareem and Wilt - 2 of the most dominant centers in the history of the NBA - should be dribbling with their left hand.

Brah.... you ignorant :lol

Pewny 6'0 guards didn't rule the 60's and 70's who the flippidy f_ck cares about a left hand if your destroying people in the low post...

Legit HOF'er 7 footers owned that era :rockon:

Centers today like JaFail Mcgee and Joel Anthony have an infinitesimally small fraction of the skillset that Wilt and Kareem possessed. The-back-to-the-basket low-post game must be so far removed from your date of birth that you don't even recognize it. LMFAO that you think dribbling with your left hand has got ANYTHING to do with being a dominant 7'1+ low-post center :roll:

Get back to me when JaFail starts droppin skyhooks or fade-aways and then you can tell me that era isn't up to par :oldlol:
no there wasnt any. maybe except willis reed
0 players over 7 foot, 230 lbs that played more than 2 years ...and 6'10" doesn't equal 7'

[Dwyane Rose]

[QUOTE=B

[Deuce Bigalow]

2 rings not enough?
when guys like MJ, Kareem, Magic, and Russell have 5+..no 2 rings isn't enough

[La Frescobaldi]

A highlight film, and they still can't dribble with their left hand. :oldlol:

Magic replaces Wilt. You ever see Magic's W/L over the regular season? He WINS games. Wilt is a wilted loser.

LMARTFO
just so you know, Magic got #13 angry in the gym and Chamberlain announced "there will be no more layups in this gym"

and magic was done after that. If your guy can't drive on a old man that was retired 10 years what are we talkin about

[SwooshReturns]

Russell, Jabbar and Jordan.
If LeBron wins MVP this year (making his count at 3) and he wins a couple more in the next few years, say the equivalent to MJ's 5 MVPs (even though MJ should have had like 7 or 8 MVPs) ... and then LeBron wins 3 - 4 rings. Where does LeBron rank on the list? Is he GOAT discussion?

[CavaliersFTW]

when guys like MJ, Kareem, Magic, and Russell have 5+..no 2 rings isn't enough

Hmmmm....


"Wilt was one of the greatest ever, and we will never see another one like him"

"He's far and away the best player I've ever played against... It's not even close."

"Open up the record book and it will be obvious who the greatest is."

"The books don't lie"

It's really ironic. I think about it and I don't think people realize
just how great he really was. You hear guys talking about Michael
Jordan and all these folks, but they really refuse to accept the fact
that when you look at the record books, he has some records that will
never be broken.

"When I started to play with him, he helped make me a better player. We seemed to have a real good feel together, I think it translated into a confidence with him. All players are generally judged by the number of championships they won. Unfortunately, he only won two. His greatness as a basketball player can't be questioned."

"The shadow of accomplishment he cast over our game is unlikely ever to be matched."

"I don't think it's fair to compare players in different eras, but he was about as dominant as any one player could be in any sport. I looked at him like he was invincible."

"He was the NBA. He was the guy on the top. Wilt was the guy you
talked about -- he and Bill Russell. He was the most dominating center -- the best center to ever play in the NBA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain

Sorry folks, but rings alone isn't an argument and everyone knows this otherwise Derrick Fisher would be greater than Iverson, and Sam Jones would be the 2nd greatest player in NBA history behind Bill Russell, and Rodman would be greater than Jordan - and so on. Not putting Wilt in the GOAT discussions is nothing but a double-standard - everybody here weighs rings+career/accomplishments/records/abilities/playoff performances etc. Wilt blows by everyone by a massive margin in most all of these non-ring related categories and combined further, with the impression he instilled on his peers, he's hands down earned himself a permanent seat for all discussions related to G.O.A.T. Don't like it? Tough, quit cryin...



/thread

[RRR3]

If LeBron wins MVP this year (making his count at 3) and he wins a couple more in the next few years, say the equivalent to MJ's 5 MVPs (even though MJ should have had like 7 or 8 MVPs) ... and then LeBron wins 3 - 4 rings. Where does LeBron rank on the list? Is he GOAT discussion?
He won't ever pass MJ but he would, theoretically, MAYBE have a case for 2nd I suppose depending on if he wins FMVP for those rings. Depends on how he wins them, but he'd be top 10 for sure, don't see how anyone could deny him that at least. If he does that I'd personally probably have him 4th or 5th but IDK.

[RRR3]

when guys like MJ, Kareem, Magic, and Russell have 5+..no 2 rings isn't enough
John Havlicek>Kobe. He's got more rings. Can't pull the "b-b-b-but he wasn't a superstar" argument like you do with Horry, cuz Hondo was a beast and scored a lot too. Funny how Wilt is clearly better than Kobe but you rank Kobe over him because of "RANGZ" (Wilt won both his rings as the best player btw) but I'm sure you will argue Kobe over people w/ more rings because "he was clearly so much better rings dont matter in this case", when in fact, that is the case with Wilt and Kobe, and why Wilt is clearly above Kobe to anyone with any semblance of sanity.

[Heavincent]

He won't ever pass MJ but he would, theoretically, MAYBE have a case for 2nd I suppose depending on if he wins FMVP for those rings. Depends on how he wins them, but he'd be top 10 for sure, don't see how anyone could deny him that at least. If he does that I'd personally probably have him 4th or 5th but IDK.

Definitely not gonna happen.

[Heavincent]

John Havlicek>Kobe.

lol if you actually believe that.

[RRR3]

lol if you actually believe that.
I don't, but it's a nowhere near as ridiculous as saying "Kobe>Wilt".

[ILLsmak]

lol at people who have their GOAT list and post it on inside hoops.

It's like a child making a castle out of his feces and calling to his mother to come look.

-Smak

[Collie]

I agree with this list:

Wilt - indivdual statistics and dominance
Kareem - longevity and awards
Russell - championships and intangibles
MJ - probably greatest combination of the above attributes

Guys like Magic, while great and top 5, don't have anything that stands out that puts him over these four guys.

[keepinitreal]

It is fun because you can always have discussions about who the best individual players are, despite basketball being a team game

[ILLsmak]

I agree with this list:

Wilt - indivdual statistics and dominance
Kareem - longevity and awards
Russell - championships and intangibles
MJ - probably greatest combination of the above attributes

Guys like Magic, while great and top 5, don't have anything that stands out that puts him over these four guys.


lol, they do if you separate bball by before and after the 3 point era. Or even into the era where there were more than 20 teams.

-Smak

[Deuce Bigalow]

John Havlicek>Kobe. He's got more rings. Can't pull the "b-b-b-but he wasn't a superstar" argument like you do with Horry, cuz Hondo was a beast and scored a lot too. Funny how Wilt is clearly better than Kobe but you rank Kobe over him because of "RANGZ" (Wilt won both his rings as the best player btw) but I'm sure you will argue Kobe over people w/ more rings because "he was clearly so much better rings dont matter in this case", when in fact, that is the case with Wilt and Kobe, and why Wilt is clearly above Kobe to anyone with any semblance of sanity.
5 championships to 2
passed wilt on the alltime playoff scoring list half a decade ago
will pass wilt in regular season points next year
has more all nba teams and more allstar appearances

wilt dominated scrubs and only got 2 rings, choked away 2 other rings
Kobe's career > Wilt's career

[Collie]

I'm not a fan of separating stuff like premerger/postmerger, pre 3-point, prezone etc. I think greatness should transcend eras.

it's kinda weird, since my personal rankings have Wilt outside the top 5, yet I do acknowledge that he's one of the top candidates for GOAT for many people.

If you value his statistics and dominance, you probably have him near the top, yet if you don't, then he'd be lower rung due to his lack of team success. Very polarizing guy.

[ILLsmak]

I'm not a fan of separating stuff like premerger/postmerger, pre 3-point, prezone etc. I think greatness should transcend eras.

it's kinda weird, since my personal rankings have Wilt outside the top 5, yet I do acknowledge that he's one of the top candidates for GOAT for many people.

If you value his statistics and dominance, you probably have him near the top, yet if you don't, then he'd be lower rung due to his lack of team success. Very polarizing guy.

But the thing is that you have to look at greatness as an absolute, then, not compared to peers. And you should understand that professional basketball was in its infancy. They didn't even have the same rules.

11 championships, 100 points. 50 ppg. You can compare greatness player-to-player, but using their statistics and accomplishments to compare is doing a huge disservice to guys like Larry Bird, Magic, and MJ. Even guys like Hakeem and Shaq.

I have to say that there's no way anyone can argue, to me, that Kareem, Russell, or Wilt were better at basketball than Shaq. I used to have a problem saying that, but the more I think about it, I realize it's almost a forgone conclusion.

-Smak

[CavaliersFTW]

5 championships to 2
passed wilt on the alltime playoff scoring list half a decade ago
will pass wilt in regular season points next year
has more all nba teams and more allstar appearances

wilt dominated scrubs and only got 2 rings, choked away 2 other rings
Kobe's career > Wilt's career

lol, the playoff series throughout Wilt's career often didn't even have as many games, plus he played the role of facilitator and defensive anchor in his most successful playoff runs.

And anyways - would Kareem be considered a more productive scorer than Jordan because he scored more points? Or does the fact that he played more games have something to do with that point total difference... :roll:

Keep your cherry-picking bias in check :lol :hammerhead:

[Heavincent]

I don't, but it's a nowhere near as ridiculous as saying "Kobe>Wilt".

Not really.

[CavaliersFTW]

But the thing is that you have to look at greatness as an absolute, then, not compared to peers. And you should understand that professional basketball was in its infancy. They didn't even have the same rules.

11 championships, 100 points. 50 ppg. You can compare greatness player-to-player, but using their statistics and accomplishments to compare is doing a huge disservice to guys like Larry Bird, Magic, and MJ. Even guys like Hakeem and Shaq.

I have to say that there's no way anyone can argue, to me, that Kareem, Russell, or Wilt were better at basketball than Shaq. I used to have a problem saying that, but the more I think about it, I realize it's almost a forgone conclusion.

-Smak

Narrow minded & Closed minded.

Why even take the time to post?

[CavaliersFTW]

Not really.

yes, really:lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Championships
Kobe - 5
Wilt - 2

Finals MVPs
Kobe - 2
Wilt - 1

MVPs
Kobe - 1
Wilt - 4

All-Star Selections
Kobe - 14
Wilt - 13

All-NBA Teams
Kobe - 13
Wilt - 10

Regular Season Points Alltime
Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419 (4th)
Kobe Bryant - 28,834 (5th)

Playoff Points Alltime
Kobe Bryant - 5,280 (3rd)
Wilt Chamberlain - 3,607 (14th)


And remember that Wilt played in an inferior era.

[bladefd]

I'd rather have Magic on there instead of Bill Russell if it is only 4 guys. You have to add Magic into the mix.. Imagine if he didn't have to retire early due to HIV.. He had no other injury issues and guy could still play when he retired as we saw couple years later in the all-star game. You have to include him in the G.O.A.T discussion. Period.

[CavaliersFTW]

Championships
Kobe - 5
Wilt - 2

Finals MVPs
Kobe - 2
Wilt - 1

MVPs
Kobe - 1
Wilt - 4

All-Star Selections
Kobe - 14
Wilt - 13

All-NBA Teams
Kobe - 13
Wilt - 10

Regular Season Points Alltime
Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419 (4th)
Kobe Bryant - 28,834 (5th)

Playoff Points Alltime
Kobe Bryant - 5,280 (3rd)
Wilt Chamberlain - 3,607 (14th)


And remember that Wilt played in an inferior era.

100>82

:violin:

[CavaliersFTW]

I'd rather have Magic on there instead of Bill Russell if it is only 4 guys. You have to add Magic into the mix.. Imagine if he didn't have to retire early due to HIV.. He had no other injury issues and guy could still play when he retired as we saw couple years later in the all-star game. You have to include him in the G.O.A.T discussion. Period.

You don't need to replace any of the 4 guys I listed

It wasn't intended to be treated as an exclusive closed list, add anyone you like I was only alluding that none of those 4 guys should ever not be mentioned when discussing GOAT - Magic of course also has a case for GOAT.

:cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

100>82

:violin:
81 points out of 122 team points > 100 points out of 169 team points
the pace was so much faster and the era was so inferior

[bwink23]

Championships
Kobe - 5
Wilt - 2

Finals MVPs
Kobe - 2
Wilt - 1

MVPs
Kobe - 1
Wilt - 4




All-Star Selections
Kobe - 14
Wilt - 13

All-NBA Teams
Kobe - 13
Wilt - 10

Regular Season Points Alltime
Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419 (4th)
Kobe Bryant - 28,834 (5th)

Playoff Points Alltime
Kobe Bryant - 5,280 (3rd)
Wilt Chamberlain - 3,607 (14th)


And remember that Wilt played in an inferior era.


Remember Kobe plays in an era with rules designed to enhance his play, not hinder it. Remember Kobe plays in the era of the 3-point shot and ticky-tac-foul calls to inflate and pad his point totals. :no:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Remember Kobe plays in an era with rules designed to enhance his play, not hinder it. Remember Kobe plays in the era of the 3-point shot and ticky-tac-foul calls to inflate and pad his point totals. :no:
:oldlol: Uh no
and WIlt played against 6'8'-6'10 centers weighing 200 lbs, 90% of them not having skills :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

81 points out of 122 team points > 100 points out of 169 team points
the pace was so much faster and the era was so inferior
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--2CTEsjDuh0/T0I9TmQwEYI/AAAAAAAAC-w/SkjHEkeJMXk/s800/Cool%2520Story%2520Bro.jpg

[No Name]

100>82

:violin:
cool lets see whos a better player by comparing how many points they scored in one game

so by your logic Gilbert Arenas>Lebron

:violin:

[T.O.RapsJays]

Championships
Kobe - 5
Wilt - 2

Finals MVPs
Kobe - 2
Wilt - 1

MVPs
Kobe - 1
Wilt - 4

All-Star Selections
Kobe - 14
Wilt - 13

All-NBA Teams
Kobe - 13
Wilt - 10

Regular Season Points Alltime
Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419 (4th)
Kobe Bryant - 28,834 (5th)

Playoff Points Alltime
Kobe Bryant - 5,280 (3rd)
Wilt Chamberlain - 3,607 (14th)


And remember that Wilt played in an inferior era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_regular_season_records

[CavaliersFTW]

cool lets see whos a better player by comparing how many points they scored in one game

so by your logic Gilbert Arenas>Lebron

:violin:

let's see who has more rebounding, scoring, and assist titles :rolleyes:

Point is, you can cherry pick anything - when your bias your only going to favor ur dude and what he accomplished. Everything else suddenly becomes "unimportant" - I was trolling the troll's attempt to showcase Kobe in a good light and Chamberlain in a bad light - because it was just cherry picking (did I mention he's just trolling?).

[Coffee Black]

It seems that the best to deal with these debates is to consider the players overall impact to the game. There is not one aspect to consider for the players legacy. Rather, there are dozens of components, such as ability to win, success, skill, control of the game, etc., that contribute. Ideally everybody would have watched and experienced all these players play, instead of conjecturing. (This basketball debate of GOAT is most similar to the boxing GOAT debate, because in both cases it seems that the only true way to judge is to have experienced the athletes first hand).

So it is not easy to make a clearly defined GOAT list. But one thing seems to be of general consensus. There are six players who have impacted and contributed significantly more to the game than any other players. Those players being Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, and Bird, with MJ even standing out from those individuals. So to me there are SIX permanent members of the GOAT list, with MJ being the greatest.

[Pushxx]

My top 10 list:
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt*
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem**

*I've struggle with where to put Wilt. He should either be #4 or #6. I've settled on #6, as much as it kills me.

**It kills me more to put Hakeem at #10. He had to go against some impossible competition in the 80s. But I gotta do it.

Oh and I've changed my list many times over the years. It's just impossible to give a specific ranking because of the hundreds of factors involved.

[CavaliersFTW]

It seems that the best to deal with these debates is to consider the players overall impact to the game. There is not one aspect to consider for the players legacy. Rather, there are dozens of components, such as ability to win, success, skill, control of the game, etc., that contribute. Ideally everybody would have watched and experienced all these players play, instead of conjecturing. (This basketball debate of GOAT is most similar to the boxing GOAT debate, because in both cases it seems that the only true way to judge is to have experienced the athletes first hand).

So it is not easy to make a clearly defined GOAT list. But one thing seems to be of general consensus. There are six players who have impacted and contributed significantly more to the game than any other players. Those players being Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, and Bird, with MJ even standing out from those individuals. So to me there are SIX permanent members of the GOAT list, with MJ being the greatest.

:cheers:

[PHILA]

Only permanent member : Jordan.

Kareem has better case than Russell.
You may just be a fan of Jordan's manufactured legacy, instead of his real one. No true fan of Jordan knowing the qualities that made him the player he was would be so demeaning towards Russell. Might this be an overemphasis on ppg & shooting percentage? There's no doubt Kareem with his touch was a much better shooter than Russell from all over the court. Aside from that, there is absolutely nothing he does as good or better than Bill (as far as physical skills). Some may say footwork in reference to KAJ's offensive maneuverability in the pivot (of course neglecting the defensive footwork of Bill), however as poor as Russell's shooting touch was he had outstanding footwork. Below we can see him perform the "wheeling" hook shot move that KAJ made a living off of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UtG7-I2wBw#t=23m5s

Of course in comparing intangibles it is an even bigger gap in Russell's favor.

[ThaRegul8r]

You may just be a fan of Jordan's manufactured legacy, instead of his real one. No true fan of Jordan knowing the qualities that made him the player he was would be so demeaning towards Russell.

Evidently, you're not familiar with the modern basketball fan, who I've observed for decades.

For the modern basketball fan, being a fan (short for fanatic) means demeaning any player who presents a potential perceived threat to the status of your favorite player. A "true fan" of a player unceasingly works to destroy all competition so that in the minds of "most people," your claim as to your favorite player goes unchallenged. It means making sure that "most people" agree with you, a fact which you will unceasingly refer to in order to bury the unconverted with popular opinion.

No, that's exactly the behavior of a "true fan(atic)."

:bowdown: "There shall be no other players before thee."

[Whoah10115]

Funny thing about Bird was that he was the consensus GOAT until Jordan came along.

Using that logic, he should be somewhere on this list, but over the years his reputation has been somewhat recast by stat mongers overly focused on career numbers.




Bird wasn't consensus GOAT. I believe, with or without Michael, Magic had passed him in most people's eyes. And I also don't believe that he could be the consensus anyway. But I do agree with your overall point. And I don't even get what those stat mongers are talking about. I also don't get this revisionist history that Larry Bird didn't play defense. What player are they talking about?





LMARTFO
just so you know, Magic got #13 angry in the gym and Chamberlain announced "there will be no more layups in this gym"

and magic was done after that. If your guy can't drive on a old man that was retired 10 years what are we talkin about




With much respect, don't use that argument because people will not take you seriously. And they shouldn't. I don't care if Wilt said "no more layups". Stuff like that happens all the time. And the fact is that Wilt would not have been able to play in the league at any high level, in his 40's. He would not be able to play in the league in his 50's. Transplanted in his prime, he would not have put up most of the averages he put up in his day. And he would never average over 20RPG.



He might be the best in the league and he could average, at his best, 33 and 18 in the 80's or 90's...and that would put him in the discussion, absolutely. I still believe Michael and Magic are easily the two best players ever (really no argument for Kareem over Magic, with respect to everyone else's opinion), and I still believe Larry Bird is still the 3rd best player ever...but whatever. Wilt would be a monster. But let's not act like Walt Frazier and talk about 70 points or suggest he would put up the same numbers. And let's not act like Wilt, had he accepted a contract to play in the 80's, would show up and start beasting. It's not a question of respect for Wilt, but a complete disrespect to everyone else.

[La Frescobaldi]

I don't believe Bird was anywhere near consensus GOAT. I believe, with or without Michael, Magic has passed him in most people's eyes. And I also don't believe that he could be the consensus anyway. But I do agree with your overall point. And I don't even get what those stat mongers are talking about. I also don't get this revisionist history that Larry Bird didn't play defense. What player are they talking about?









With much respect, don't use that argument because people will not take you seriously. And they shouldn't. I don't care if Wilt said "no more layups". Stuff like that happens all the time. And the fact is that Wilt would not have been able to play in the league at any high level, in his 40's. He would not be able to play in the league in his 50's. Transplanted in his prime, he would not have put up most of the averages he put up in his day. And he would never average over 20RPG.



He might be the best in the league and he could average, at his best, 33 and 18 in the 80's or 90's...and that would put him in the discussion, absolutely. I still believe Michael and Magic are easily the two best players ever (really no argument for Kareem over Magic, with respect to everyone else's opinion), and I still believe Larry Bird is still the 3rd best player ever...but whatever. Wilt would be a monster. But let's not act like Walt Frazier and talk about 70 points or suggest he would put up the same numbers. And let's not act like Wilt, had he accepted a contract to play in the 80's, would show up and start beasting. It's not a question of respect for Wilt, but a complete disrespect to everyone else.

I wonder, why did the Nets offered him an NBA contract in '86 when the guy was almost 50 years old? They obviously thought he could still play. So did guys like Kiki, Larry Brown, Mark Eaton......... if you saw him playing volleyball or running on the beach in the late 70s/ early 80s you might have a different viewpoint. Dude was fast

As far as rebounds? If Howard & Love can get 15 rpg, Chamberlain is gonna throw up numbers.

He was the real deal in Philly, still to this day the greatest NBA force I've ever seen.

[CavaliersFTW]

Bird wasn't consensus GOAT. I believe, with or without Michael, Magic had passed him in most people's eyes. And I also don't believe that he could be the consensus anyway. But I do agree with your overall point. And I don't even get what those stat mongers are talking about. I also don't get this revisionist history that Larry Bird didn't play defense. What player are they talking about?









With much respect, don't use that argument because people will not take you seriously. And they shouldn't. I don't care if Wilt said "no more layups". Stuff like that happens all the time. And the fact is that Wilt would not have been able to play in the league at any high level, in his 40's. He would not be able to play in the league in his 50's. Transplanted in his prime, he would not have put up most of the averages he put up in his day. And he would never average over 20RPG.



He might be the best in the league and he could average, at his best, 33 and 18 in the 80's or 90's...and that would put him in the discussion, absolutely. I still believe Michael and Magic are easily the two best players ever (really no argument for Kareem over Magic, with respect to everyone else's opinion), and I still believe Larry Bird is still the 3rd best player ever...but whatever. Wilt would be a monster. But let's not act like Walt Frazier and talk about 70 points or suggest he would put up the same numbers. And let's not act like Wilt, had he accepted a contract to play in the 80's, would show up and start beasting. It's not a question of respect for Wilt, but a complete disrespect to everyone else.

His situation for averaging 50 (and then 45) was certainly rare and would probably not arrise in the 1980's. His Warriors team was relatively low in talent compared to over half the teams those two seasons. And every team was outgunned by the Celtics, so it was especially so for his team. In the off-season prior to 1961-62 the Warriors coach Frank McGuire and Wilt discussed how they would be in the best position to beat Boston. Frank McGuire has gone on record that he alone came up with the proposal that Wilt should aim for 50 per game - so that (in his eyes) they'd be in the best position to beat Boston. Wilt wasn't even sure he could do it. Remember he had only averaged a consistent 38ppg in both of his prior seasons. 38 leaping to 50 isn't a jump in ppg that could be done w/o a team plan to allow him to do it - his prime normal scoring clip when the team strategy wasn't strictly catered to get him the ball seems to be a still impressive ~38ppg. Frank McGuire was also a "new" Warriors coach that season so he had also asked Wilt how long he could play in games and the response was "Forever, I never get tired." So, he had not only a rare green light to play every minute, but he'd also had a coaches request to strive for that Mount-Everest 50 points every single game. His scenario of unlimited minutes and a personal request for the team to let him go balls-to-the-wall in scoring likely wouldn't happen in the 1980's... But he'd still be a dominating league leading caliber scorer. In the 80's or 90's I doubt any coach would ask him to "score less" right in the middle of his prime (as per Alex Hannum in 1967).

I'd say 36ppg would be Wilt's peak in the 80's or 90's if coaches didn't recognize his full potential and/or had a balanced team that didn't need him to be the 1 man offense, and in his prime a steady 34ppg for a number seasons. He'd probably decline to about 24-26ppg by the tail end of a 13-14 season career but with more careful shots on higher % than when he was doing 36ppg (probably record %'s too). He might even dip below 20ppg if he decided to pursue a very long career, in which case I'm sure he would ultimately switch team roles to defender/facilitator by his own choice. I agree about an 18rpg peak with probably 16-18 career avg. he was very rebound hungry and had incredible length and strength to get them before anyone else could but there just wouldn't be enough to go around for ~22-27. I think his career ppg would be about the same as it was from his era because I'm almost positive 80's and 90's coaches would never ask him to change his game and score less like the coaches did of his time, I can't think of any dominant scorer in the mass-marketing era that the league didn't want to simply build complimentary pieces around.

However: If he was on a bad team analagous to the early 60's Warriors... It is possible, that even with the era's different game pace, that Wilt could score in the 40+ppg range (Maybe not 50 though...). His stamina is why. If he had the same green lights and you get him the ball he's just gonna score with league leading fg%, and he's gonna score quickly because the era pace won't dictate his natural ability to run and initiate fast-breaks by blocking shots to guards/etc. He and Bill Russell ran teams ragged in the 60's. They are in large part the reason behind that era's game pace.

[WillC]

Oscar Robertson: The Most Underrated Player in NBA History.

And no, I'm not being swayed by his triple-double average - I couldn't give a damn about that.

I'm swayed by his incredible offensive repertoire and shooting, defensive tenacity, ball-handling and passing. He was truly a jack-of-all-trades.

Meanwhile, Wilt Chamberlain is clearly one of the top 3 players of all-time. He was a better defender than Kareem (by far), a better rebounder (by far), a better passer and inseparable offensively.

In fact, Wilt Chamberlain was a better player than Bill Russell too (anyone that saw them play will agree), but Russell fitted into a team system better and, therefore, you can argue that Russell deserves to be ranked ahead of Wilt since it is a team game after all.

However, if I'm drafting a team from scratch, Wilt is in my top 2 all-time.

[Champ]

Bird wasn't consensus GOAT. I believe, with or without Michael, Magic had passed him in most people's eyes. And I also don't believe that he could be the consensus anyway. But I do agree with your overall point. And I don't even get what those stat mongers are talking about. I also don't get this revisionist history that Larry Bird didn't play defense. What player are they talking about?

Consensus in that it was the majority opinion expressed at the time. In terms of Magic passing him, I don't believe that was ever widely expressed, even during Magic's ascendance in the late-80s - which is why we're still having the argument about who's better. In Magic's defense, there wasn't enough of a window when it was just him to gain as much GOAT coverage in the press.

In other words, the problem with the Magic argument was not Bird but Jordan, who by that point was already beginning to make his GOAT case. Even though more MVP's and championships were still in the offing, most sports writers and followers of the game could see the writing on the wall.

[rhythmic]

The Four Horsemen:

Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan and Bill Russell.

[Champ]

My top 10 list:
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt*
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem**

*I've struggle with where to put Wilt. He should either be #4 or #6. I've settled on #6, as much as it kills me.

**It kills me more to put Hakeem at #10. He had to go against some impossible competition in the 80s. But I gotta do it.

Oh and I've changed my list many times over the years. It's just impossible to give a specific ranking because of the hundreds of factors involved.

Not a bad list!

[TheMan]

The very fact that the OP started a GOAT thread, then turned right around and tried to include Lin, only after a few games. Tells me all I need to know about his level of understanding of the game. He really has none.:no:







Moving on

1...I inserted Jeremy Lin, not CavaliersFTW
2...it was a joke based on all the hype Lin has been recieving...
3...you seriously need a sense of humor

[CavaliersFTW]

Oscar Robertson: The Most Underrated Player in NBA History.

And no, I'm not being swayed by his triple-double average - I couldn't give a damn about that.

I'm swayed by his incredible offensive repertoire and shooting, defensive tenacity, ball-handling and passing. He was truly a jack-of-all-trades.

Meanwhile, Wilt Chamberlain is clearly one of the top 3 players of all-time. He was a better defender than Kareem (by far), a better rebounder (by far), a better passer and inseparable offensively.

In fact, Wilt Chamberlain was a better player than Bill Russell too (anyone that saw them play will agree), but Russell fitted into a team system better and, therefore, you can argue that Russell deserves to be ranked ahead of Wilt since it is a team game after all.

However, if I'm drafting a team from scratch, Wilt is in my top 2 all-time.

:bowdown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMq-eX_pNw&t=8m5s

:cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

Oscar Robertson: The Most Underrated Player in NBA History.

Who

[Owl]

Oscar Robertson: The Most Underrated Player in NBA History.

And no, I'm not being swayed by his triple-double average - I couldn't give a damn about that.

I'm swayed by his incredible offensive repertoire and shooting, defensive tenacity, ball-handling and passing. He was truly a jack-of-all-trades.

Meanwhile, Wilt Chamberlain is clearly one of the top 3 players of all-time. He was a better defender than Kareem (by far), a better rebounder (by far), a better passer and inseparable offensively.

In fact, Wilt Chamberlain was a better player than Bill Russell too (anyone that saw them play will agree), but Russell fitted into a team system better and, therefore, you can argue that Russell deserves to be ranked ahead of Wilt since it is a team game after all.

However, if I'm drafting a team from scratch, Wilt is in my top 2 all-time.
Interesting.
I like Oscar but would be interested to see sources for the quality of his D. But I too would have him at any pantheon level.

I also like Wilt but I'm not too sure about the gap between him and Kareem. Wilt was a risk because of his personality (during the 67 title run he was letting other owners know he was available). I would say that the comps you suggest would be fair if not adjusting for era, but KAJ stood a cut above a very strong generation of centres in the 70's.

[Whoah10115]

I wonder, why did the Nets offered him an NBA contract in '86 when the guy was almost 50 years old? They obviously thought he could still play. So did guys like Kiki, Larry Brown, Mark Eaton......... if you saw him playing volleyball or running on the beach in the late 70s/ early 80s you might have a different viewpoint. Dude was fast

As far as rebounds? If Howard & Love can get 15 rpg, Chamberlain is gonna throw up numbers.

He was the real deal in Philly, still to this day the greatest NBA force I've ever seen.



I respect your opinion on Chamberlain, but regardless of why the Nets offered it, he wouldn't have been valuable at all. The Nets sucked and I am willing to bet it was for show.


Chamberlain could get maybe 20 RPG, but not over and it's difficult to get even 20 rebounds when you're averaging 30PPG.




His situation for averaging 50 (and then 45) was certainly rare and would probably not arrise in the 1980's. His Warriors team was relatively low in talent compared to over half the teams those two seasons.



I understand, but in no capacity would it happen. I don't believe he would score 35 either. But if he scored more than that it would be on a team that wasn't very good and wouldn't do very well with him scoring that amount. That would definitely be the case if we're talking outside one season.

[PTB Fan]

Oscar Robertson: The Most Underrated Player in NBA History.

And no, I'm not being swayed by his triple-double average - I couldn't give a damn about that.

I'm swayed by his incredible offensive repertoire and shooting, defensive tenacity, ball-handling and passing. He was truly a jack-of-all-trades.


This. I have him high because of his all-around game, arguably greatest offense and offensive production. The latter two are often not mention whenever he's brought in discussion.

However, the honor of most underrated all time great goes to either Dr J and Elgin Baylor, two guys who were considered as GOAT candidates (Dr has a better case overall, in the slightest of margin) but are forgotten now. Oh.. and Jerry West too.

[Legends66NBA7]

This. I have him high because of his all-around game, arguably greatest offense and offensive production. The latter two are often not mention whenever he's brought in discussion.

However, the honor of most underrated all time great goes to either Dr J and Elgin Baylor, two guys who were considered as GOAT candidates (Dr has a better case overall, in the slightest of margin) but are forgotten now. Oh.. and Jerry West too.

Who's the most overrated all-time great, in your opinion ? Just curious.

[bwink23]

Who's the most overrated all-time great, in your opinion ? Just curious.

George Mikan....It's like paying homage to the caveman who invented the wheel.

[Deuce Bigalow]

George Mikan....It's like paying homage to the caveman who invented the wheel.
Wilt played in almost the same era. Both weak

[Whoah10115]

Consensus in that it was the majority opinion expressed at the time. In terms of Magic passing him, I don't believe that was ever widely expressed, even during Magic's ascendance in the late-80s - which is why we're still having the argument about who's better. In Magic's defense, there wasn't enough of a window when it was just him to gain as much GOAT coverage in the press.

In other words, the problem with the Magic argument was not Bird but Jordan, who by that point was already beginning to make his GOAT case. Even though more MVP's and championships were still in the offing, most sports writers and followers of the game could see the writing on the wall.



I see what you're saying. I do think Magic was considered the best when Jordan won in 1991 and that's when it changed. But again, completely agree...revisionist history at its worth.

[Legends66NBA7]

George Mikan....It's like paying homage to the caveman who invented the wheel.

I see...

Though, I do respect the great Mikan for what he did in the NBA's early stages and for changing the rules for the big man, I can see how he can be overrated.


1) No shot clock during his era.

2) Not many great athletes and there was also the racial quota.


I'm not even sure how well Mikan would translate in different era's either.

[bwink23]

Wilt played in almost the same era. Both weak


Mikan never blocked Kareem's Skyhook.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan never blocked Kareem's Skyhook.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r09WtKVwaMU

[bwink23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r09WtKVwaMU


That's not Goerge Mikan....and that's not a face-up block...that's a block coming off the weak side. I wouldn't be surprised if Jordan blocked Kareem's hook like that......:no:

[Disaprine]

op is captain obvious.

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's not Goerge Mikan....and that's not a face-up block...that's a block coming off the weak side. I wouldn't be surprised if Jordan blocked Kareem's hook like that......:no:
Who cares about getting blocked. Bynum blocked Dwight this season. Is he better than him? :facepalm

[bwink23]

Who cares about getting blocked. Bynum blocked Dwight this season. Is he better than him? :facepalm


Is that the best you can do troll ?? :facepalm

[bwink23]

Who cares about getting blocked. Bynum blocked Dwight this season. Is he better than him? :facepalm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlB8X101kME

Listen to Kareem talk about Wilt's jumping ability at 3:47...:banana:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Is that the best you can do troll ?? :facepalm
You're the one trolling. Acting like blocking someones shot means something more than it is.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlB8X101kME

Listen to Kareem talk about Wilt's jumping ability at 3:47...:banana:
Wilt (himself):
"I was getting 50 inches off the ground in a vertical"
"If I played today, I would average 70-75 points easy"

[bwink23]

Wilt (himself):
"I was getting 50" inches off the ground in a vertical"
"If I played today, I would average 70-75 points easy"


That's just Wilt blowing himself...doesn't take away the fact he was a great leaper and athlete at 7-foot.

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's just Wilt blowing himself...doesn't take away the fact he was a great leaper and athlete at 7-foot.
vertical..no

[bwink23]

vertical..no


your saying Wilt was not a great leaper??

[Deuce Bigalow]

your saying Wilt was not a great leaper??
on the vertical he was not "great". Long jumping yes - He jumps a long distance because of how long his legs are and he's not a slow big men

[Whoah10115]

I don't believe Wilt had a 50in vertical. I know he had great ups tho. I flat out do not believe he could jump higher than Michael Jordan. He never showed anything resembling 50inches in game. So no.



And I think Wilt (and most of the people propping him up) do his game a tremendous disservice by saying he would easily average 70-75 points today. Blatant disrespect for the players playing today. The stats of the star players were inflated. Argue against that if you want, but you just give the ones who don't know a reason to continue not knowing.



Like they say that assists were harder to come by back then. The way Oscar Robertson explains it, he would have averaged at least 15 assists a game, while leading the league in scoring and averaging over 10RPG. If that's true, it's maybe the best example of why he didn't win prior to going to the Bucks. Guys like that just act stupid.

[bwink23]

on the vertical he was not "great". Long jumping yes - He jumps a long distance because of how long his legs are and he's not a slow big men


For a 7' big man...who do you call a "great" leaper??

[bwink23]

on the vertical he was not "great". Long jumping yes - He jumps a long distance because of how long his legs are and he's not a slow big men


For you to say Wilt was not a "great" jumper, is to assume there have been many 7-footers to jump like he could...

NAME THEM.

[Deuce Bigalow]

For you to say Wilt was not a "great" jumper, is to assume there have been many 7-footers to jump like he could...

NAME THEM.
jlauber's dad Wilt

[CavaliersFTW]

on the vertical he was not "great". Long jumping yes - He jumps a long distance because of how long his legs are and he's not a slow big men

Wilt's specific long jump # I've heard was 22'8" but I've yet to have a newspaper source from an actual Track Meet of his confirm this, because I think he only did long jump in high-school or as an ineligible freshman. But it seems pretty specific, and likely true based on his triple jump #'s.

His 46'2.5" and 45'9" Triple Jumps which are confirmed via newspapers. So yes, he can certainly jump long, and yes as you've probably seen in his high-jump approach and some footage of his fast-breaks when he was in college, he was a fast big man with a large stride as you said.

But about his vertical... Do you consider Dwight's 39.5" vertical "great?" Because Wilt's vertical looks to be just about identical to Dwight's. Highest I've interpreted based on his High Jump's is he maybe had 1" more - I've certainly never bought into the idea that he had 50" - but 39.5-40.5 seems to be a vertical that is necessary for the specific high-jumps he did captured on film. That'd put him in the company of 2 guys. Dwight, and Lebron.

39.5" Dwight Howard - 280lbs - when measured for the vertical
40.5" Wilt Chamberlain - 240lbs - at the time of his HJ
42" Spud Webb (BTW, it is 46" in the Guinness book of WR)
42" Julius Erving
44" Young Lebron - 245lbs - at the time of his measured vertical
48" MJ (btw I'm not sure if that's official)

Lebron was pretty much equal to Wilt's weight, actually 5lbs heavier when his vertical was near the mid 40's. Dwight is the only player who was significantly heavier who jumped + or - an inch of that. I'd say with such few company - Wilt's vertical was pretty spectacular - considering his class of size no? The 40" vertical club doesn't have many members as it is - only two that I know of are in the <240lb class.

[Whoah10115]

But about his vertical... Do you consider Dwight's 39.5" vertical "great?" Because Wilt's vertical looks to be just about identical to Dwight's. Highest I've interpreted based on his High Jump's is he maybe had 1" more - I've certainly never bought into the idea that he had 50" - but 39.5-40.5 seems to be a vertical that is necessary for the specific high-jumps he did captured on film. That'd put him in the company of 2 guys. Dwight, and Lebron.

39.5" Dwight Howard - 280lbs - when measured for the vertical
40.5" Wilt Chamberlain - 240lbs - at the time of his HJ
42" Spud Webb (BTW, it is 46" in the Guinness book of WR)
42" Julius Erving
44" Young Lebron - 245lbs - at the time of his measured vertical
48" MJ (btw I'm not sure if that's official)




I wouldn't question that. But that's a lot less than 50", isn't it.

[Owl]

Wilt played in almost the same era. Both weak
And at this point the thread was hijacked.

And they played in "almost the same era" as Robert Parish and Tim Duncan played in almost the same era. In that ones career end is close to the others start. But Parish played before the NBA had a 3 point line, and Duncan is active today.

Except there's a larger gap between Mikan's 1st retirement (he came back for a cameo after a year out and was ineffective in the shot clock era), and Chamberlains arrival than there is between Parish and Duncan (actually there's no gap Parish retired in '97, Duncan was drafted then).

None of which is to state that I (or anyone) believes that Wilt had 50 inch vertical or played in a strong league during in the late 50's/early sixties.

There's plenty of Wilt threads and blimey didn't basketball used to be unathletic threads already. Let's try to keep this one on track.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan won a NBA championship in '54. Wilt played his first NBA season in '60.

[CavaliersFTW]

I wouldn't question that. But that's a lot less than 50", isn't it.

And Wilt probably slept with a lot less than 20,000 women... but the real life # is still probably astronomical and untouchable to the majority of men on earth. Wilt is somebody who liked to add #'s to his stories, often #'s that were a bit questionable - but if you look at the underlying point he's trying to make he's right. He was a good leaper, he screwed a lot of women. I think some people sell him way too short because of his exaggeration. Also, people keep confusing things he's said with things other people independent of him said.

Like the "toe breaking" story. Whether or not it really happened, Wilt never once in his life ever even said he broke a guys toe with a dunk. Johnny Red Kerr did - and he didn't just claim to witness it, he claimed it happened to himself.

These tall tales things really spin out of control - people need to realize he very probably was a GOAT athlete - not just basketball player - but all around athlete. It's not that he's winning gold medals in the Olympics, it's that he was just massive, 7'1 (honest height too, not shoe height) and he had a body that would do things that 99 out of 100 people who are only 6'1 would struggle to do.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r09WtKVwaMU

That's not a skyhook, pretty much every other comment on that video from everyone else also agree's that it's likely a dunk attempt not a skyhook attempt. - even if it was it's from Kareem's weak side not head on. Kareem has said he can't remember anyone ever blocking him head on. Chamberlain did though. Doubtful anyone else ever has.

[Whoah10115]

And Wilt probably slept with a lot less than 20,000 women... but the real life # is still probably astronomical and untouchable to the majority of men on earth. Wilt is somebody who liked to add #'s to his stories, often #'s that were a bit questionable - but if you look at the underlying point he's trying to make he's right. He was a good leaper, he screwed a lot of women. I think some people sell him way too short because of his exaggeration. Also, people keep confusing things he's said with things other people independent of him said.

Like the "toe breaking" story. Whether or not it really happened, Wilt never once in his life ever even said he broke a guys toe with a dunk. Johnny Red Kerr did - and he didn't just claim to witness it, he claimed it happened to himself.

These tall tales things really spin out of control - people need to realize he very probably was a GOAT athlete - not just basketball player - but all around athlete. It's not that he's winning gold medals in the Olympics, it's that he was just massive, 7'1 (honest height too, not shoe height) and he had a body that would do things that 99 out of 100 people who are only 6'1 would struggle to do.




Yea, but the real argument lies in one side using those exaggerations as a genuine basis of an argument, and the other side getting so fed up that they outright reject the entirety of the man's legacy.



Wilt had a terrific vertical. Let's not say he was 7'1 and jumped higher than Michael Jordan. That turns people off. And when his dumbass claims he would average a lot more than he used to, when it's an absolute guarantee (I'd bet jlauber's life on it) that he wouldn't average as much as he used to? That's just annoying.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yea, but the real argument lies in one side using those exaggerations as a genuine basis of an argument, and the other side getting so fed up that they outright reject the entirety of the man's legacy.



Wilt had a terrific vertical. Let's not say he was 7'1 and jumped higher than Michael Jordan. That turns people off. And when his dumbass claims he would average a lot more than he used to, when it's an absolute guarantee (I'd bet jlauber's life on it) that he wouldn't average as much as he used to? That's just annoying.

It doesn't seem like a smart thing to say sure - but Wilt isn't a dumbass, he was actually a very smart person and had a very high BBIQ to boot. Jordan also claimed he (himself) would average 50ppg in today's era. GOAT Legends that had that ferver to be the best still want to be considered the best for as long as they're alive - all of them seem to hate being forgotten or put in positions where the passing of time, or a new star threatens their legacy. They kinda over-compensate their frustration when they tell everyone how good they'd still be. It def backfire's lol, can't blame anyone for calling them out guess.

But in Wilt's defense, Walt Frazier said Wilt would average 70-75ppg, and Billy Cunningham also said he'd average 70ppg - so at least his peers are just as awestruck and confident in his talents as he is so obviously he must have been pretty damn amazing. Between Wilt, MJ, Cunningham, and Frazier none of these guys are actually dumbasses though they just said some unrealistic #'s. Again, in this situation the implication is likely true though - Wilt and MJ would be dominating this era too (but that's because they'd dominate any era) - they just tried too hard to remind everyone. lol.

[jlauber]

I don't believe Wilt had a 50in vertical. I know he had great ups tho. I flat out do not believe he could jump higher than Michael Jordan. He never showed anything resembling 50inches in game. So no.



And I think Wilt (and most of the people propping him up) do his game a tremendous disservice by saying he would easily average 70-75 points today. Blatant disrespect for the players playing today. The stats of the star players were inflated. Argue against that if you want, but you just give the ones who don't know a reason to continue not knowing.



Like they say that assists were harder to come by back then. The way Oscar Robertson explains it, he would have averaged at least 15 assists a game, while leading the league in scoring and averaging over 10RPG. If that's true, it's maybe the best example of why he didn't win prior to going to the Bucks. Guys like that just act stupid.

I find it fascinating that the "ESPN Generation" just laugh off Wilt's statistical accomplishments as "inflated."

When Chamberlain came into the NBA, the league record for scoring was 29.2 ppg, and the FG% record was .490. Furthermore, the NBA was NOT in it's infancy at the time. The league was started in 1946 for cryingoutloud, and aside from the 24 second clock, and a few a minor rules (like offensive and defensive goal-tending...which were established BEFORE Wilt came into the league), it was essentially the same game that was played in the 1890's.

Even rebounding, which was the only real "inflated " stat, was not nearly as dramatic as the "anti-Chamberlain" posters would have you believe. Before Wilt arrived, the record was Russell's at 23.0, BUT, he shattered the previous record by seven rpg.

And take Wilt and Russell out of the equation, and there have only been FOUR full 20+ rpg game seasons in NBA HISTORY, and those were BARELY in the 20's (Thurmond with a 21.3 rpg, Lucas with two, and a high of 21.1 rpg, and Bob Pettit with a 20.2 rpg season.)

So, it was not like everyone was grabbing 20 rpg. At it's PEAK in the Chamberlain era, team's were grabbing about 62 rpg. And before some idiot looks up the team numbers of the early 60's, they included TEAM rebounds, which were eliminated after the 71-72 season.

And, think about this...in Chamberlain's LAST season, in 72-73, he led the NBA in rebounding, at 18.6 rpg, in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. BUT, in the post-season, and playing against 7-0 270 lb. Tom Boerwinkle (yes, a legitimate seven-footer), who had the highest "rebound rates" in one season in the Wilt-era, and Chamberlain just crushed him in that post-season, averaging 24.6 rpg. Then, Wilt annihilated 6-11 HOFer Thurmond (and here again, Thurmond was among the greatest rebounders of all-time) by a staggering 23.6 rgg to 17.2 rpg margin. And he capped it off with an 18.6 rpg to 9.2 rpg margin over 6-9 HOFer Willis Reed in the Finals. Overall, in the 72-73 post-season, Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season in which the team's averaged 50.6 rpg. Not only that, but that was the LAST time a player would ever average as much as 17.3 rpg in the post-season again. How come?

And it was not just the rebounding numbers, but the fact that Wilt just ABUSED EVERY center (or player) he faced in his entire career. Russell is generally regarded as the second greatest rebounder of all-time (some would argue Rodman, but Dennis was mainly a part-time player whose rebounding numbers dropped dramatically in the post-season...while Chamberlain's already staggering numbers climbed considerably), and yet Wilt pounded Russell in their 142 H2H games, by FIVE per GAME (28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg.) Included in those 142 H2H's, were MANY games in which Chamberlain just buried Russell. He had a game, as late as Russell's last season (68-69), in which he outrebounded Russell, 42-18 (and a Finals game by a 31-13 margin.) He had SEVEN games, just against RUSSELL, in which he stabbed 40+ rebounds. Included in those were the playoff record of 41 (outrebounding Russell, 41-29), and regular season record of 55 (just smoking Russell by an unfathomable 55-19 margin.)

In fact, Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-season series, which included EIGHT against Russell. In some of those he just wiped out his opposing center (including one against Russell in which he shredded Russell by a 32-23 rpg margin.) As amazing as that feat was, you would also be hard-pressed to find very many SINGLE games, in Wilt's entire post-season career, in which he was outrebounded.


Back to the scoring marks. Once again, when Wilt came into the league, the scoring record was 29.2 ppg. Take Wilt out of the equation, and in his 14 seasons in the NBA, the next highest fulltime scoring season, was Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg in 66-67. Is that so unbelieveable? MJ averaged 37.1 ppg in '86-87, and Kobe had a 35.4 ppg season in '06. Now some will argue Baylor's PART-TIME season, in 61-62, in which he averaged 38.3 ppg in a season in which he barely played HALF of the games. Ok, then how about Wilt in the 62-63 season? In his first 16 games, he was averaging 53.8 ppg, and in his first 20 straight games, he was still at 52.3 ppg! His numbers dropped off for a variety of reasons, BUT, using PART-TIME numbers, he was capable of nearly 54 ppg. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain had TWO separate streaks in the 61-62 season, in which he scored 40+ in 14 straight games. In BOTH streaks, he averaged 53 and 54 ppg.

And, how about Kareem? Kareem PLAYED FOUR SEASONS IN THE CHAMBERLAIN-ERA. He had his greatest statistical season, IN the Wilt-era, in 71-72, when he averaged 34.8 ppg. That was in a season in which the league averaged 110 ppg (in Wilt's 50.5 ppg season, the league averaged 118.8 ppg.)

Furthermore, in that 71-72 season, Kareem played 44.2 mpg. And if ever he had an opportunity to challenge Wilt's scoring seasons, it was in his 75-76 season. He came to an average at best, Laker team that season, which ultimately would go 40-42, and yet, he could only average 27.7 ppg in 41.2 mpg. And before someone jumps in and claims that scoring was down that season, how come Bob McAdoo could average 31.1 that season (and 34.5 ppg in the season before)?

The FACT was, Kareem faced quite a few of the centers that Chamberlain had faced in his career, and he never came close to the domination that Wilt had against them. I have given the numbers many times before, but a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain had an entire SEASON against HOFer Reed, in which he averaged 40.1 ppg and in NINE H2H games, including games of 58 and 52 points (and he just killed Reed overall in those games that season.) He had entire SEASONS, both covering 10 H2H games in each season, of 43.7 ppg and even 52.7 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (who would have measured over 7-0 in today's NBA BTW.)

And, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in about 12 H2H games (from the last three games of the 64-65 season, thru nine H2H games in 65-66.) And how about this...including their last H2H game in that 64-65 season, thru their first game in the 66-67 season (in a season in which Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting), Wilt battled Nate in 11 straight H2H games...and averaged 30 ppg against him. Included in those 11 games, were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even a 45 point game (in which he outscored Thurmond by a 45-13 margin.)

Kareem faced all three of those guys (and all were mostly on the downside of their careers by then), and he never approached that kind of domination against them. Thurmond was especially interesting, since Kareem battled him in over 50 H2H games, and his HIGH game against him was 34 points. In fact, he seldom even scored 30 against Thurmond, and overall, he shot horribly against him (including their three straight playoff series battles in the early 70's, in which Kareem shot .486, .428, and even an eye-popping .405 against Nate.)

Even in Wilt's 68-69 season, in which he only shot about 14 times per game, he still hung games of 60 and 66. And, Kareem came into the league the very next season, and faced both of those same centers, and he couldn't come close to duplicating that. And, as a sidenote, in Kareem's first season, in Chamberlain's first nine games, Wilt was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg (and on nearly 60% shooting.) Included in those nine games, was a game in which Wilt battered Kareem, outscoring and badly outshooting him, in a 25-25 9-14 game. Unfortunately, Wilt blew out his knee in that game, and was never the same offensive player again.

Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Even in the 70-71 season, in arguably Wilt's WORST season, and in perhaps Kareem's greatest season (if you include the playoffs), a 34 year old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery, faced Kareem in TEN H2H games (five in the regular season, and five in the post-season.) In those ten games, Kareem averaged 26.1 ppg to Wilt's 22.6 ppg, while Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg, and outshot Kareem, .481 to .454.

In any case, and as almost everyone here should know by now, Kareem would go on to play into the 80's. And in his 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, he faced Hakeem in TEN H2H games. And in those ten games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting. That was not ONE game, but over the course of ALL TEN. He had THREE games of 40+ ( 40 on 16-29 shooting, 42 on 16-24 shooting, and even a 46 point game, on 21-30...and in only 37 minutes.) And, within a few days of that 46 point annhilation, a 39 year old Kareem also murdered Patrick Ewing with a 40 point game, and on 15-22 shooting (while Ewing scored 9 points on 3-17 shooting against him.)


In any case, in terms of scoring, NO ONE challenged Wilt during, or after his career. Here again, the scoring was NOT significantly "inflated" in the Wilt years, either. In his greatest scoring season, 61-62, the league averaged 118.8 ppg. In MJ's 86-87 season, the NBA averaged 109.9 ppg. In Kareem's 34.8 ppg, the league averaged 110.0 ppg. Kobe's 35.4 ppg did come in a league that averaged 97 ppg, which was very impressive, but even transporting Wilt's 61-62 season into '06, and it was still have approached 40 ppg (particularly if you factor in league average in FG%, which was at .454 in '06, and only at .426 in '62.)

And once again, how come ONLY Wilt??? Where were all of the other 40 ppg seasons in the Chamberlain era, much less a 50 ppg season?

And, why was Wilt winning scoring titles by as much as +10.8, and even +18.8 ppg in his career?

Now, would Wilt average 70+ ppg in the current NBA? Of course not. My god, in his entire career, he "only" had SIX 70+ point games. Nor would he average 50 ppg, either, and for a variety of reasons. One, the game is played at a slightly lower pace (again, not a DRAMATIC differenc, though...last year the NBA averaged 99.6 ppg...which is at 84% of Wilt's highest season.) And, Wilt would not be playing 48 mpg either. HOWEVER, those that dismiss Wilt's mpg marks, also need to acknowledge that a Chamberlain, playing 40-42 mpg, would naturally be more efficient than a Wilt playing 48 mpg. Finally, no coach is going to let Wilt shoot 35-40 times per game.

However, and as we now have solid footage which PROVES it, Wilt, up thru the first half of his career, had very good range, and a variety of post moves. And, he was exceptionally quick, as well. He was capable of starting his offense from 15+ ft, so, there is no question that he COULD shoot 30 times a game, and easily 25. Give a PRIME Chamberlain 25 FGAs, and on a very reasonable 60% FG%, and he would easily average 30-35 ppg in TODAY's NBA.


And, once again, the FG% record before Wilt arrived, was at .490. Chamberlain shattered that mark in his second season (.509), and would set records in '63, '66, '67, and then in his LAST season, at .727. Not only that, but Wilt was shooting .540 over his career, in league's that averaged .440 overall, or, on AVERAGE, 100 points over the league average. In his '67 season, Wilt's .683 was .244 over the league average (.441), and his .727 in '73, was a record differential of .271 over the league average of .456! In Gilmore's .670 season, it came in a league that shot .486. And his mark (being threatened by a low shooting Tyson Chandler this season), was still WAY less than Wilt's differentials.

So, to sum it up, those that just slough off Wilt's statistical achievements, as "inflated", need to re-examine them. What Wilt did in HIS era was astonishing. It was not like there were many players scoring 36+ ppg. In fact, there were NO players having seasons of 36+ ppg!

And, while rebounding numbers are at about 70% of the peak seasons in Wilt's career, transporting him to the current NBA, he would still be around 18 rpg. And, if Rodman could get 18.7 rpg, against weak competition, a motivated Wilt would have approached 20.


As for the comment that Wilt couldn't average 20 rpg, while scoring 30 ppg, because it would difficult to do...he easily AVERAGED those numbers over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER. No, I don't see Chamberlain averaging a 30-20, BUT, anyone who thinks that today's centers are anything special, has no clue about basketball skills. Most of today's centers are no more taller, and considerably LESS skilled, than those that Wilt faced. Keep in mind that Wilt was nearly 7-2, and would be measured at 7-3 in today's NBA. He also had a measured 7-8 wingspan. In his PRIME, in the mid-60's, he weighed between 280-290 lbs. He was a CHAMPION high-jumper (PART-TIME, and with poor technique), as well as a competitive long jumper, triple-jumper, and sprinter. He was universally accepted as, by FAR, the strongest player in the league (and many would claim all-time.) And, as we KNOW, he had excellent range and moves. He was a SKILLED seven-footer.


IMHO, a PEAK Chamberlain, playing a very reasonable 42 mpg, and asked to carry a team offensively, would be putting up 30-35 ppg, 16-18 rpg, and .550 to .600 shooting seasons, in TODAY's NBA.

[jlauber]

Yea, but the real argument lies in one side using those exaggerations as a genuine basis of an argument, and the other side getting so fed up that they outright reject the entirety of the man's legacy.



Wilt had a terrific vertical. Let's not say he was 7'1 and jumped higher than Michael Jordan. That turns people off. And when his dumbass claims he would average a lot more than he used to, when it's an absolute guarantee (I'd bet jlauber's life on it) that he wouldn't average as much as he used to? That's just annoying.

Chamberlain easily had a 40" vertical, and even late in his career he was routinely blocking the "unblockable" sky hook.( BTW, in the video in which Bill Willoughby "blocks" the skyhook, Kareem is approaching 40 years of age, AND, the ball is still in Kareem's HAND when Willoughby "blocks" it...unlike the blocks by an OLD Wilt against a PRIME Kareem.)

We now have VIDEO FOOTAGE, in which Wilt's fingertips are within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard, and with a leap in which he has no time to react, and has to jump straight up (and in a game in which he is running up-and-down the court.) There can be no doubt that he was capable of touching the top of the backboard, which, BTW, was claimed by respected Philly sports icon Sonny Hill, and even longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico.

There is even a VIDEO, in the 70-71 playoffs against the Bulls, in which a 34 year old Wilt, at 300+ lbs, and only a year removed from major knee surgery...and again, with no time to react, and going straight up, blocks a shot, in which the video clearly shows Wilt's fingertips at around the top of the square, or mearly 12 ft.

So, no matter what Chamberlain's actual vertical was, there is a strong possibilty that no other legitimate NBA player ever reached the heights that Wilt did.

[jlauber]

We know that Chamberlain scored 100 points in one game, and averaged 50.4 ppg over the course of a full season.

But how about some of these FACTS.

There have been 131 30-30 games in NBA history, and Wilt has 103 of them.

There have been 61 40-30 games in NBA history, and Chamberlain has 55 of them.

There have been eight 40-40 games in NBA history, and Wilt has ALL of them.

There have been four 50-40 games in NBA history, and Chamberlain has ALL of them.

There have been TEN 70+ point games in NBA history, and Wilt has SIX of them (no one else has more than one.)

There have been 62 60+ point games in NBA history, and Wilt has 32 of them. The next guys, MJ and Kobe, each have five.

There have been 28 40+ rebound games in NBA history, and Wilt has 15 of them (and seven came against Russell, including one in which he outrebounded him by a 55-19 margin.)

There have only been two known DOUBLE-TRIPLE-DOUBLES in NBA history (one of them a recorded, but still "unofficial" game) and Wilt has BOTH of them (one game in which he scored 22 points, with 25 rebounds, and 21 assists, and another game in which he scored 34 points, with 33 rebounds, and 20 blocks.)

The "official" NBA record for blocked shots in one game, is Elmore Smith's 17 in the '74 season, BUT, Wilt had a RECORDED game, in a nationally televised game in 1968, in which he blocked 23 shots.

Wilt has the FOUR highest "perfect" games from the field in NBA history, with games of 15-15, 16-16, and two at 18-18.

Wilt holds the NBA record for consecutive FGAs MADE, with 35 straight.

In Wilt's 61-62 season, he scored 26+ points in EVERY game (and his low games were 26 and 28.) In fact, he scored 25+ in 126 straight games covering two seasons.

Wilt has the highest 50+ point streaks in NBA history, with one streak of SEVEN, and two more of SIX.

Chamberlain has the TWO highest 40+ point streaks, at 14, and in which he averaged 53 ppg and 54 ppg in both. Kobe had one streak of nine, and in which he averaged 44 ppg during that streak.

Chamberlain had a five game streak in which he scored 351 points, or 70.1 ppg in that streak.

There are many more, but, here again, for the so-called "inflated" era, where are the other players who challenged those marks? For example, Wilt had those 32 games in which he scored 60+ points. During the Wilt-era, there were a TOTAL of FIVE games in which a player scored 60+ (Baylor with four, and West with one.) How come ONLY Wilt?