Cavs Wizards, Irving Wall

[The Macho Man]

First game for Irving and Wall against each other, should be fun to watch.

[PTB Fan]

Agreed.

[kurt_rambis]

http://i39.tinypic.com/4l1roj.jpg

[rknine15]

Finally!!!! Couldn't wait any longer for this match up!

[The Macho Man]

Blatche is playing:cry: :cry: :cry:

[The Macho Man]

Why does Irving only play 30 mins a game?

[LBJMVP]

Why does Irving only play 30 mins a game?

at the beginning of the season he was only gettin like 24-26.
recently he has been gettin 32-34 minutes though.

[L.Kizzle]

First game for Irving and Wall against each other, should be fun to watch.
Meh, the Arenas/LeBron match-ups were better.

[rknine15]

John stop it :bowdown:

[Black Joker]

Why does Irving only play 30 mins a game?
Scott's weird rotations, but the man knows how to coach PGs so i'll trust it. we also have a very capable backup in Sessions. If Ramon gets traded before the deadline, expect those minutes to go up.

and Jamison is balling right now

[The Macho Man]

If they keep Blatche on em he'll score 40

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie clearly having his minutes limited tonight coming off of that illness. Looks like Scott is going back to his beginning of the season-type 24-27 minutes tonight. I can't say I'm too upset. Better safe than sorry.

[RedBlackAttack]

You are seeing two completely different young point guards right now. The latter part of this second quarter has been very interesting in that respect.

Wall is pure speed, force and athleticism. Kyrie is finesse and skill.

Two totally different players... Two excellent young prospects. Kyrie's passing has been excellent so far in this game. He is setting his teammates up all over the place, although the three assists don't quite show it.

I've liked his patience, though. He isn't forcing anything.

Wall is looking a little too aggressive right now. Forcing things a little too much.

[rknine15]

Wall plays his heart out, gotta love it!

[PleezeBelieve]

Wall will be the epitome of 'potential' his entire career. The guy just isnt a very good NBA point guard. He plays with terrible awareness. He's essentially saved by his length and speed for his position.

[redhonda76]

Wall isn't playing very smart. Irving's game is up and above Wall's game in all areas. Clearly Wall is pumped and wanted to get the best of Irving. Looks like it's backfiring now.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wall isn't playing very smart. Irving's game is up and above Wall's game in all areas. Clearly Wall is pumped and wanted to get the best of Irving. Looks like it's backfiring now.
That is the feeling I got, too. You could almost see Wall in the pregame dying to get at Irving... Like it was a one-on-one grudge match. He has played that way.

Meanwhile, Kyrie is just letting the game come to him and taking what is there.

Wall needs to settle down.

[rknine15]

Why does Irving only play 30 mins a game?
Lack of cardio maybe?

[The Macho Man]

:oldlol: Mcgee:bowdown:

[rknine15]

Mcgee :facepalm again...

[The Macho Man]

:oldlol: Mcgee blocked by the backboard

[Rose]

I really like Kyrie. He impresses me a lot. He's just so...poised. and under control. The exact opposite of Wall.:oldlol:

[The Macho Man]

Very good quarter by Wall. Irving was unnoticeable out there.

[rknine15]

Wall is way to fast.....

[04mzwach]

http://i39.tinypic.com/4l1roj.jpg

quack quack..

[RedBlackAttack]

I can't believe Sessions allowed Wall to get a head of steam at the end of the third and get all the way to the hoop. Also, nice job by Jamison of just letting him go right by him.

Overall, with the exception of a few flashes of greatness by some of the young guys in this game, it is pretty obvious why both of these teams will be picking in the lottery.

Just bad basketball.

I also really liked that move by McGee where he got completely lost, went up for a layup and was rejected by the bottom of the backboard. :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

Wall will be the epitome of 'potential' his entire career. The guy just isnt a very good NBA point guard. He plays with terrible awareness. He's essentially saved by his length and speed for his position.

he has great court vision. He was 19-8-4 on 50% last month. Just stop

Blatche though :facepalm

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm a little surprised that the pick-and-roll with Irving and Hollins, of all people, is giving Washington so many problems. Kyrie with another dime to Hollins which led to a foul.

[RedBlackAttack]

Does Jordan Crawford always shoot like this?

[The Macho Man]

He's been pretty hot lately, takes lots of dumb shots though.

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie and Hollins are playing very well together tonight. Shockingly well, considering it is Hollins.

And... Crawford hits another one.

[rknine15]

Chucker :bowdown:

[ralph_i_el]

Does Jordan Crawford always shoot like this?

I wish :oldlol:
he gets hot and can't stop...or he stays cold and goes 0-5 from 3

[RedBlackAttack]

I wish :oldlol:
he gets hot and can't stop...or he stays cold and goes 0-5 from 3
Seems like the Wizards' lineup is dotted with guys like that. :oldlol:

Nice six point swing there on the 3s by Parker and Kyrie. We're back in it.

[The Macho Man]

Irving steppin up

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm not really sure what Hollins is supposed to do there. :oldlol:

Wall just ran full speed right into his gut.

[ralph_i_el]

Seems like the Wizards' lineup is dotted with guys like that. :oldlol:

Nice six point swing there on the 3s by Parker and Kyrie. We're back in it.

yeah, crawford and nick young just chuck threes. If one is hot the other sees no PT. I don't think Young has even got in the game. He might have had a few minutes while I was grilling burgers but I haven't seen him.

The refs have been ****ing up. Couple of bad missed calls imo


edit: ANOTHER BLOWN CALL. Booker barely skimmed him ****ing bullshit

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie doing what he does. This is his MO all year in fourth quarters.

[redhonda76]

Horrible shot by Wall.

[The Macho Man]

hoping for OT

[RedBlackAttack]

Horrible shot by Wall.
Again, playing the game as if it if a one-on-one showdown with Kyrie. Irving playing totally within the flow.

[Rose]

Yeah I'm sold 100% on Kyrie.:bowdown:

[RedBlackAttack]

That was a great block by Wall. It was a foul on the body, but a great block nonetheless.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I liked the jerseys Washington had last year better. That blue and white combo was pretty nice imo.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think Kyrie had hit something like 27 straight free throws coming into tonight. He was due to miss a couple... tough one to miss there, though.

[rknine15]

Thats the big difference between Wall and Irving. Wall plays D and hustles a lot better than Irving.

[Sarcastic]

If Wall missed that, the Kyrie fanbois would be killing him calling him a scrub.

[The Macho Man]

I have no problem with the shot Wall took.

[Rose]

If Wall missed that, the Kyrie fanbois would be killing him calling him a scrub.
:lol

[RedBlackAttack]

Thats the big difference between Wall and Irving. Wall plays D and hustles a lot better than Irving.
:oldlol:

There are a lot of differences between Wall and Irving. They couldn't be more polar opposite.

[RedBlackAttack]

If Wall missed that, the Kyrie fanbois would be killing him calling him a scrub.
Kyrie has fanboys? :oldlol:

Do those even exist?

How many threads have even been made about him this year? Two or three?

EDIT: Nice job in setting it up, btw.

[SilkkTheShocker]

If Wall missed that, the Kyrie fanbois would be killing him calling him a scrub.
Well he just missed one like Irving did so they are even jackass.

[The Macho Man]

Jamison for 3 please

[ralph_i_el]

I liked the jerseys Washington had last year better. That blue and white combo was pretty nice imo.

really? I thought they were awful. I actually wear the new ones because I like them, as opposed to my old #0 that I only wore out of respect lol

[RedBlackAttack]

Well he just missed one like Irving did so they are even jackass.
And, yet, no Kyrie "fanboys" are calling him a scrub. Shocking.

[Sarcastic]

Well he just missed one like Irving did so they are even jackass.

So they are equal.

[LBJMVP]

i hate not being able to watch these games. couldnt find a link!!1

[Sarcastic]

And, yet, no Kyrie "fanboys" are calling him a scrub. Shocking.

Go read Shittheshocker's post.

[Rose]

More ping pong balls for cleveland....a few less for the Wiz.

[RedBlackAttack]

Parker? Really?

Kyrie, Jamison, Boobie... Could live with that.

Parker? Off the dribble?!

Curious. It was clear that the play was drawn up that way, too. I guess maybe Scott felt that the height advantage he had over Crawford would give him the best look. Still, very curious.

[LBJMVP]

Parker? Really?

Kyrie, Jamison, Boobie... Could live with that.

Parker? Off the dribble?!

Curious.

parker took the three against boston too :facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

really? I thought they were awful. I actually wear the new ones because I like them, as opposed to my old #0 that I only wore out of respect lol

I liked the blue a lot on them. Not a Wiz fan, but still have Stackhouse swingman from back in the day. :oldlol:

[redhonda76]

Crawford's clearly was the difference in the Wizard's win. I really love the way how Irving was controlling the offense. Very patience and smart.

[RedBlackAttack]

i hate not being able to watch these games. couldnt find a link!!1
It was an interesting game, although not very well played by either side. However, both Wall and Kyrie had their moments, and Irving totally took over down the stretch once again... Which is a good sign considering he was doing it on Wall who really is a nice defender.

All in all, not an awful loss... Top 5 pick, here we come.

[RedBlackAttack]

parker took the three against boston too :facepalm
Looking at the replay, Irving was actually open in the corner, too... I just don't understand that shot. Then again, give us a couple of more ping-pong balls.

Can you say M-K-G?

[rknine15]

Good game.

Wall with:

24pts (8/17fg) (8/10ft) 5 rebs 5ast 2st 1blk 3to

Irving with:

20pts (8/14fg) (2/4ft) 1reb 6ast 2st 0bl 3to


I'll give the edge to Wall

[KingBeasley08]

da Wiz :rockon:

Missed the game but just saw that highlight of Wall at the end of the third :bowdown: :bowdown:

[rknine15]

da Wiz :rockon:

Missed the game but just saw that highlight of Wall at the end of the third :bowdown: :bowdown:
they never looked back after that

[RedBlackAttack]

For those interested in the head-to-head statistical comparison...

John Wall -
35 minutes
24 points
8-17 FG'
8-10 FT
0-0 3PT
5 assists
5 rebounds
2 steals
1 block
3 turnovers
-9 +/-m

Kyrie Irving
31 minutes
20 points
8-14 FG
2-4 FT
2-3 3PT
6 assists
1 rebound
2 steals
0 blocks
3 turnovers
+9 +/-

[The Macho Man]

Irving was clutch, thought he should have been more aggressive throughout the game though.

[LBJMVP]

Looking at the replay, Irving was actually open in the corner, too... I just don't understand that shot. Then again, give us a couple of more ping-pong balls.

Can you say M-K-G?

we need detroit, new jersey, toronto, and Sacramento to pass us
that will put us at the four spot.

i foresee jamison being traded to a contender soon and maybe LA will get desperate and give us those first rounders for sessions.

[RedBlackAttack]

they never looked back after that
They didn't? :oldlol:

They won by three points and Parker missed the game-tying shot at the buzzer. It was a very close, pretty poorly played game by two bad teams with major injury problems.

[RedBlackAttack]

we need detroit, new jersey, toronto, and Sacramento to pass us
that will put us at the four spot.

i foresee jamison being traded to a contender soon and maybe LA will get desperate and give us those first rounders for sessions.
I'm still hoping that the Sessions deal comes off, but I'm getting a little anxious about it. Nothing is going to happen until Orlando decides what they are going to do with Howard.

Two first-rounders in this draft would be fantastic.

As for our draft position... If we can just get into the Top 7 in terms of worst record, we have a good shot at a Top 5 pick. The lottery is going to be a lot of fun this year.

Winning it last year was truly one of my favorite moments as a Cavs fan. Getting the 1st and 4th pick... It was euphoria.

[Derivative]

irving should of took the last few shots

[RedBlackAttack]

Irving was clutch, thought he should have been more aggressive throughout the game though.
It looked like he was conserving himself and still recovering from the illness that held him out of last night's game. I don't have any complaints with the way he played, though. While he wasn't being aggressive early on in looking for his own shot, he was controlling the offense really well and dishing up some very nice passes.

All things considered, I thought he played pretty damn well tonight all the way around. The only disappointment was his free throw shooting. He shot over 95% from the line in February. Two misses in one game are a complete anomaly.

[RedBlackAttack]

irving should of took the last few shots
Well, he did take the shot in the Cavs' second to last possession... Got to the free throw line. With the way he has played late in games this year, I can't complain about that one possession.

His 12 points in the fourth quarter were the only reason we were in it in the first place.

[rknine15]

They didn't? :oldlol:

They won by three points and Parker missed the game-tying shot at the buzzer. It was a very close, pretty poorly played game by two bad teams with major injury problems.
Yep. After the late 3rd quarter run(to tie the game) fueled by Wall, the Wizards never gave the Cavs the lead again.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yep. After the late 3rd quarter run fueled by Wall(to tie the game) Wizards never gave the Cavs the lead again.
"Never looked back" implies that the game was never in doubt. And, it was in serious doubt right down to the final buzzer.

Again, it was a close, poorly played game by two bad teams. Congrats, though.

[The Macho Man]

It was a pretty well played game by Wizards standards.

[rknine15]

Looked at the boxscore again and notice Blatche had 9 boards and 5 dimes in 21 minutes :eek:

[The Macho Man]

Looked at the boxscore again and notice Blatche had 9 boards and 5 dimes in 21 minutes :eek:

His trade value will never be higher.

[RedBlackAttack]

It was a pretty well played game by Wizards standards.
:oldlol:

Well, I can't speak too much to that. I can say that it was a poorly played game by the Cavs with the exception of Irving, Jamison and maybe Hollins.

Sessions, Parker, Tristan, Gibson, Casspi and Samuels all had below average games. Gee was OK.

You can't have three guys show up on the second night of a back-to-back on the road and expect to win. But, again, this did make up some ground on the Wizards as far as the lottery is concerned, so I can't be too upset.


Btw, Byron Scott just said in his postgame presser that Kyrie was "at about 75% tonight."

[RedBlackAttack]

Looked at the boxscore again and notice Blatche had 9 boards and 5 dimes in 21 minutes :eek:
The true definition of empty stats. I barely noticed him out there.

[ralph_i_el]

Looked at the boxscore again and notice Blatche had 9 boards and 5 dimes in 21 minutes :eek:

and 1 point...

[entropy35]

Wall with yet another good scoring night.

Basically the only thing Irving does better than wall is shoot. Everything else wall seems to be ahead in.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wall with yet another good scoring night.

Basically the only thing Irving does better than wall is shoot. Everything else wall seems to be ahead in.
Pffft.

Did you even watch the game?

Irving plays within the flow of an offense. Wall seems to force the action... A lot. I'm sure Washington fans are happy with Wall and he is a nice player, but I wouldn't even consider taking him over Irving. The thought wouldn't enter my mind.

Irving is so much more in control. And he is a 19-year-old rookie. The gap in that aspect of their respective games is only going to widen.

The only clear advantage I'd give Wall over Irving is defensively, but Irving will eventually come around in that respect.

[NuggetsFan]

Irving has a more polished game. Plays in control more so than Wall. That being said John Wall's a better defender, rebounder, has better court vision. Irving no contest is a better shooter tho. In terms of the future still give me Wall personally. Started out in that 2nd year slump but the past month or so looking like he should. Be nice to see Wall play in a situation where the teams not a complete mess too. Cleveland isn't that good obviously but not a bunch of knuckleheads and actually seems like they have a good pretty good system in place for Kyrie. Seem to be bringing him along slowly instead of just throwing him into the fire.

A non Cleveland\Washington fan's opinion.

[RedBlackAttack]

Irving has a more polished game. Plays in control more so than Wall. That being said John Wall's a better defender, rebounder, has better court vision. Irving no contest is a better shooter tho. In terms of the future still give me Wall personally. Started out in that 2nd year slump but the past month or so looking like he should. Be nice to see Wall play in a situation where the teams not a complete mess too. Cleveland isn't that good obviously but not a bunch of knuckleheads and actually seems like they have a good pretty good system in place for Kyrie. Seem to be bringing him along slowly instead of just throwing him into the fire.

A non Cleveland\Washington fan's opinion.
Irving is also a far superior ball handler. That may actually be his most redeeming trait. He already has one of the best handles in the league.

Wall is just a little too reliant on his physical talent for my tastes. That is fine for a small forward or shooting guard, but a point guard is completely different. You have to be aware of everything that is happening on the floor. You have to know how to control pace. You have to know when to get your own shot and when to set up others.

Basically, you have to play within the flow of the game, not force too much when it isn't there and know when you can change the pace to benefit your team. I haven't seen those traits in Wall and I'm not sure that those are things that you just suddenly "learn" after a few years.

But, whatever... Each is entitled to their own opinions. For the point guard position, give me Kyrie's skillset and demeanor every day of the week. I don't see being really big, jumping high and running really fast in a straight line as incredibly important aspects of a PGs game. Give me change-of-direction speed, ball handling skills and an ability to hit an open jumper over those things.

[ralph_i_el]

Pffft.

Did you even watch the game?

Irving plays within the flow of an offense. Wall seems to force the action... A lot. I'm sure Washington fans are happy with Wall and he is a nice player, but I wouldn't even consider taking him over Irving. The thought wouldn't enter my mind.

Irving is so much more in control. And he is a 19-year-old rookie. The gap in that aspect of their respective games is only going to widen.

The only clear advantage I'd give Wall over Irving is defensively, but Irving will eventually come around in that respect.

you can polish a player but you can't teach athleticism

[The Macho Man]

One thing I wonder about Kyrie is how much room he has for improvement. He already has a really good feel for the game, is skilled, has a nice shot. I hope he's able to keep improving though.

[RedBlackAttack]

you can polish a player but you can't teach athleticism
I think Irving's athleticism is underrated. He doesn't have the size, leaping ability or straight-line speed of Wall. However, there is more to an athlete than just that. Irving has tremendous reflexes, hand-eye coordination, balance, dexterity (especially around the basket) and his speed in changing of direction is fantastic.

Those are all physical athletic traits that you also can't teach. He just happens to also compliment those things with a lot of skill (for a 19-year-old), basketball IQ and a nice 6-foot-3 frame.

Again, I prefer those things in my point guard over jumping and running fast in a straight line. I'm not trying to diminish Wall, either... He is more than just that. But, I just think that Irving is the better player now and will continue to be the better player over the course of their respective careers.

[RedBlackAttack]

One thing I wonder about Kyrie is how much room he has for improvement. He already has a really good feel for the game, is skilled, has a nice shot. I hope he's able to keep improving though.
I refuse to believe that any player ever in the history of the league maximizes their talent at 19 and with such little experience. Again, I think his athleticism is being under appreciate, here. When it comes to point guards, people need to look at more than just pure speed, size and jumping.

Irving is a tremendous athlete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S2oLLzuG74&feature=related

^^^You don't see a ton of room for growth, there?

[NuggetsFan]

Irving is also a far superior ball handler. That may actually be his most redeeming trait. He already has one of the best handles in the league.

John Wall has good handles too. Wouldn't really argue that there better than Irving's or anything but don't really see a massive difference between the two when watching them. Neither are elite IMO in that area.



Wall is just a little too reliant on his physical talent for my tastes. That is fine for a small forward or shooting guard, but a point guard is completely different. You have to be aware of everything that is happening on the floor. You have to know how to control pace. You have to know when to get your own shot and when to set up others.

Basically, you have to play within the flow of the game, not force too much when it isn't there and know when you can change the pace to benefit your team. I haven't seen those traits in Wall and I'm not sure that those are things that you just suddenly "learn" after a few years.

99% of the NBA is too reliant on their physical talent. I agree he lacks some basic skills such as shooting. Also think your looking past some that he does has tho. He has a knack for creating for others. He's good at pushing the tempo just needs to learn to slow it down sometimes. Maybe it'll never really click but doubt he plays like a 2nd year PG for the rest of his career.



But, whatever... Each is entitled to their own opinions. For the point guard position, give me Kyrie's skillset and demeanor every day of the week. I don't see being really big, jumping high and running really fast in a straight line as incredibly important aspects of a PGs game. Give me change-of-direction speed, ball handling skills and an ability to hit an open jumper over those things


What about getting others involved an area John Wall is clearly superior to Kyrie at right now? Seems pretty important to a PG to me. Wall's athletic traits that you listed clearly help him defensively(dude's averaging like a block a game as PG I think or near it).

Wall has ball handling skills. He has change of direction. Only thing he really lacks is shooting and that's an area where Kyrie really trumps him in. Kyrie plays more like a seasoned vet and has a jumper. That's the two area's where he really stands out over Wall IMO.

[ralph_i_el]

I think Irving's athleticism is underrated. He doesn't have the size, leaping ability or straight-line speed of Wall. However, there is more to an athlete than just that. Irving has tremendous reflexes, hand-eye coordination, balance, dexterity (especially around the basket) and his speed in changing of direction is fantastic.

Those are all physical athletic traits that you also can't teach. He just happens to also compliment those things with a lot of skill (for a 19-year-old), basketball IQ and a nice 6-foot-3 frame.

Again, I prefer those things in my point guard over jumping and running fast in a straight line. I'm not trying to diminish Wall, either... He is more than just that. But, I just think that Irving is the better player now and will continue to be the better player over the course of their respective careers.

oh I know that irving is a great athlete, but Wall is on another level. I'm rooting for both of them to suceed, but when someone is going against my guys they're the enemy. Hard to give props on game day


either of these kids could make the hall of fame some day. No way to know. So much talent

[TheNaturalWR]

you can polish a player but you can't teach athleticism

Post of the thread. Wall's weak aspects can be worked on. Irving's lack of athleticism(or compared to Wall's) can't.

[lilgodfather1]

Post of the thread. Wall's weak aspects can be worked on. Irving's lack of athleticism(or compared to Wall's) can't.
Shooting isn't generally something that you can become elite at just by working at it. Look at LeBron, look at Kobe. Two great players, but they are not elite shooters.

[ralph_i_el]

Shooting isn't generally something that you can become elite at just by working at it. Look at LeBron, look at Kobe. Two great players, but they are not elite shooters.

yes, but both of those guys are capable shooters now. That's all the wizards need out of wall. When his shooting is a threat, his drives will only become mroe deadly.

the wizards also need to have better shooters around Wall to space the floor so they can't fill up the paint on him.

[lilgodfather1]

yes, but both of those guys are capable shooters now. That's all the wizards need out of wall. When his shooting is a threat, his drives will only become mroe deadly.

the wizards also need to have better shooters around Wall to space the floor so they can't fill up the paint on him.
Wall isn't Rondo bad, but look at him as an example. Shooting doesn't always get better with time.

[tontoz]

Went to the game. Pretty sad to see Jamison abuse the Wizards so badly.

To me this win was due to rebounding. The Wizards are a horrible rebounding team but won the battle of the boards. I think this is only because AV was out. if he plays i think the Wizards lose.

Wall is shooting 80% from the foul line on the season. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect him to become a competent shooter.

[TheNaturalWR]

Wall isn't Rondo bad, but look at him as an example. Shooting doesn't always get better with time.

Wall reminds be of a young Wade just a different position. Same height same speed and quickness and a below average shooter. Wade has steadily become decent and that's all Wall needs to be, a decent shooter.

[RedBlackAttack]

John Wall has good handles too. Wouldn't really argue that there better than Irving's or anything but don't really see a massive difference between the two when watching them. Neither are elite IMO in that area.
I would take this as a sign that maybe you haven't seen all that much Irving. His handles are ridiculous. And, yes... I think clearly inarguably better than Wall's (which could actually use some work from what I've seen). Wall has a tendency to get a little out-of-control. Irving is almost always in total control, which has a ton to do with his having the ball on a string at all times. Watch the video I posted above. That was only through like the first 20 games of the season.


99% of the NBA is too reliant on their physical talent. I agree he lacks some basic skills such as shooting. Also think your looking past some that he does has tho. He has a knack for creating for others. He's good at pushing the tempo just needs to learn to slow it down sometimes. Maybe it'll never really click but doubt he plays like a 2nd year PG for the rest of his career.

I'm not trying to slight Wall. I actually like a lot of his game. But, if I were to create the kind of point guard that I want running my team, it would be more in the mold of Irving, not Wall.


What about getting others involved an area John Wall is clearly superior to Kyrie at right now? Seems pretty important to a PG to me. Wall's athletic traits that you listed clearly help him defensively(dude's averaging like a block a game as PG I think or near it).

Wall has ball handling skills. He has change of direction. Only thing he really lacks is shooting and that's an area where Kyrie really trumps him in. Kyrie plays more like a seasoned vet and has a jumper. That's the two area's where he really stands out over Wall IMO.

No, I don't think that Wall has great change of direction or ball handling skills. When he gets going to the basket, he is tough to stop because he is such an explosive player, but if you stop his momentum on the initial attack, he doesn't have a tremendous ability to stop, turn on a dime and continue with the same speed in another direction. That isn't how he attacks.

Irving literally sets defenses up so that he can utilize his ball handling skills and change of direction. Wall's at his best when he gets by his man and glides straight to the hoop. Totally different skillsets and if Wall had Irving's change-of-direction and ball handling skills, he would already be maybe the best point guard in the game.

You seem to be insinuating that Irving might have a couple of advantages, but they are marginal at best... Whereas Wall is clearly superior in his best areas.

I see it as Irving being far better in his greatest traits and Wall being far better in his greatest traits... Because they truly are completely different players. There aren't many similarities in the way that they play.

Also, I wouldn't consider Wall head-and-shoulders above Irving as far as "getting teammates involved" is concerned. First of all, Washington has considerable more of an offensive oriented lineup than the Cavs do. Cleveland has basically no finishers. Their best offensive player aside from Irving is Jamison and he does his work with the ball in his hands, not as a finisher that an elite PG could take advantage of.

The Wizards are literally loaded with offense. The otherside of the floor is their biggest issue. That and a complete and utter lack of basketball IQ (which Wall doesn't exactly help, imo).

Second, Wall is averaging, what? Two more assists per game in seven more minutes played and in his second season? Whereas Irving is a 19-year-old rookie who is improving in that area. Seriously... check out his assists in the last month's game log...

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6442/kyrie-irving


What you have here are two completely different players that both likely have a bright future playing two completely different styles. It is really just a matter on what kind of game you prefer.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wall reminds be of a young Wade just a different position. Same height same speed and quickness and a below average shooter. Wade has steadily become decent and that's all Wall needs to be, a decent shooter.

Difference is Wade seems to have regresssed as a shooter over the years.

[magnax1]

Wall reminds be of a young Wade just a different position. Same height same speed and quickness and a below average shooter. Wade has steadily become decent and that's all Wall needs to be, a decent shooter.
I think what is much more important then Wade's shooting is his pump fake. I really wouldn't even call him a decent shooter, but he can get anyone to bite on his pumpfake.
Also, I'd say ball handling is more important for Wall right now then shooting. Jumpshooting isn't going to be the foundation of his game no matter what. Unless he just doesn't use his skillset as effectively as he could that is.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think what is much more important then Wade's shooting is his pump fake. I really wouldn't even call him a decent shooter, but he can get anyone to bite on his pumpfake.
Also, I'd say ball handling is more important for Wall right now then shooting. Jumpshooting isn't going to be the foundation of his game no matter what. Unless he just doesn't use his skillset as effectively as he could that is.
That's what I'm saying. Wall's ball-handling just really isn't all that good at this stage of his career. I think that may have a lot to do with his tendency to get going a little too fast and out-of-control and the result is that his handle looks sloppier than it is. But still, this is obviously something that he needs to work on.

And it is also maybe Irving's greatest strength (his handle). There is no comparison.

[NuggetsFan]

I would take this as a sign that maybe you haven't seen all that much Irving. His handles are ridiculous. And, yes... I think clearly inarguably better than Wall's (which could actually use some work from what I've seen). Wall has a tendency to get a little out-of-control. Irving is almost always in total control, which has a ton to do with his having the ball on a string at all times. Watch the video I posted above. That was only through like the first 20 games of the season.

I don't know, don't watch the Cavs on a nightly basis. I have league pass so I've def checked out Kyrie because I thought he was going to bust for whatever reason. Clearly wrong about that. I wouldn't say his ball handling ability is elite. Think pretty much every starting PG has capable handles and Wall def can handle the rock alot of his turnovers are due to the fact that he's out of control.


I'm not trying to slight Wall. I actually like a lot of his game. But, if I were to create the kind of point guard that I want running my team, it would be more in the mold of Irving, not Wall.

Ya that's just a matter of opinion. Only glaring weakness with Wall is his lack of shot.



No, I don't think that Wall has great change of direction or ball handling skills. When he gets going to the basket, he is tough to stop because he is such an explosive player, but if you stop his momentum on the initial attack, he doesn't have a tremendous ability to stop, turn on a dime and continue with the same speed in another direction. That isn't how he attacks.

See that to me is absurd. Wall has great quickness. Dude doesn't have a jumper so players back off of him and he can still burn them. That's not straight line speed. Wall is 10x the athlete Irving is and IMO not really arguable. Overall athlete too not just vertical or w.e. Even at Kentucky I thought Wall showed great quickness. Off the top of my head I can think of a play against Denver where he grabbed the rebound came down the floor and had to weave around players\stop and go for the layup.


Irving literally sets defenses up so that he can utilize his ball handling skills and change of direction. Wall's at his best when he gets by his man and glides straight to the hoop. Totally different skillsets and if Wall had Irving's change-of-direction and ball handling skills, he would already be maybe the best point guard in the game.

Only thing Wall needs is Irving's jump shot and a new team. I'd actually bet with a capable team alot of the out of control, trying to do to much would improve.


You seem to be insinuating that Irving might have a couple of advantages, but they are marginal at best... Whereas Wall is clearly superior in his best areas.

I see it as Irving being far better in his greatest traits and Wall being far better in his greatest traits... Because they truly are completely different players. There aren't many similarities in the way that they play.

Also, I wouldn't consider Wall head-and-shoulders above Irving as far as "getting teammates involved" is concerned. First of all, Washington has considerable more of an offensive oriented lineup than the Cavs do. Cleveland has basically no finishers. Their best offensive player aside from Irving is Jamison and he does his work with the ball in his hands, not as a finisher that an elite PG could take advantage of.

The Wizards are literally loaded with offense. The otherside of the floor is their biggest issue. That and a complete and utter lack of basketball IQ (which Wall doesn't exactly help, imo).

Second, Wall is averaging, what? Two more assists per game in seven more minutes played and in his second season? Whereas Irving is a 19-year-old rookie who is improving in that area. Seriously... check out his assists in the last month's game log...

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6442/kyrie-irving


What you have here are two completely different players that both likely have a bright future playing two completely different styles. It is really just a matter on what kind of game you prefer.

Irving does only have a few advantages. Not downplaying theme either. His advantage with shooting is probably the biggest advantage either player has. Plays more in control, not downplaying that either. What else can you say Irving is better at? Scoring in general but in the ends that's due in large to his shooting and already said he's clearly superior in that area.

This is where you show your bias. John Wall is clearly superior getting others involved. I hate the assist statistic but watching them play, looking at that statistic and it's really obvious. Irving is averaging what? like 5 assists per game. With 3.1 turnovers by the way in 31 minutes per game. If he was playing 37 a night you'd probably see him alot closer to Wall in that area.

Washington is loaded with offensive players, stupid offensive players. Nothing on that roster is really going to be responsible for all Wall's assists. Blanche taking stupid shots, Crawford\Nick Young gunning. They literally have like 3-4 players who you argue are the biggest knuckle heads in the league :oldlol:

Even look at there shorts college career. I don't even think Irving hit double digits once in his short span. Wall was having 10+ games from time to time. Just dropped like 15 a couple of games ago, remember him dropping like 16 once in college too.

I don't even think Kyrie has a double double yet in his career. John Wall had what like 26 in 64 starts in his ROOKIE season. That to me alone shows a different aspect of their games. Just like if you looked at their shooting %'s you'd get an idea of the story.

For the record alot of people really do downplay Kryie in that area. You hear alot of Mo Williams instead of Chris Paul whom I'm pretty sure Kryie was compared to coming out. That being said in terms of moving the rock John Wall showed more in his rookie season than Irving and is showing more this year again even with his slow start.

[NuggetsFan]

I think that may have a lot to do with his tendency to get going a little too fast and out-of-control and the result is that his handle looks sloppier than it is. But still, this is obviously something that he needs to work on.


That's what it is. Every time I've watched him he's had no trouble using his handle to get past somebody. It's just when he's going a mile a minute. That to me = out of control issues not ball handling issues.

[RedBlackAttack]

Simply put, NuggetsFan... If Wall was the player that you posted above, he'd be a lot better than he is. And, you are severely underrating Irving, probably due to lack of watching the Cavs play (which is understandable).

Wall's handle is nowhere close to Irving's handle. It is as lopsided as their respective jumpshots. No bullsh!t. Bill Simmons compared Irving's ball-handling skills to Kevin Johnson in a recent article. That says a lot.

Time will tell... And I think your tune will change quite a bit the more you are exposed to this kid (and, yeah... he is still a kid).

There is no point in discussing it anymore, because I don't believe you've seen enough Irving. If you think the only thing he has on Wall is a jumpshot, you haven't watched enough... Or you don't know basketball, which I don't believe is the case.

[magnax1]

That's what I'm saying. Wall's ball-handling just really isn't all that good at this stage of his career. I think that may have a lot to do with his tendency to get going a little too fast and out-of-control and the result is that his handle looks sloppier than it is. But still, this is obviously something that he needs to work on.

And it is also maybe Irving's greatest strength (his handle). There is no comparison.
There is no comparison in their ball handling, but I'd still take Wall right now. The difference between their defense and passing is pretty monumental. Wall just really struggles to score because of his lack of ball handling, but it has improved a lot. When he was in Kentucky he couldn't really handle with his off hand at all. Shooting would be nice for him, but he won't really need it much once he can get inside, because no one will be able to stop him. Just like Wade and Rose.

[RedBlackAttack]

There is no comparison in their ball handling, but I'd still take Wall right now. The difference between their defense and passing is pretty monumental. Wall just really struggles to score because of his lack of ball handling, but it has improved a lot. When he was in Kentucky he couldn't really handle with his off hand at all. Shooting would be nice for him, but he won't really need it much once he can get inside, because no one will be able to stop him. Just like Wade and Rose.
Defense? Sure. Wall is a vastly superior defender at this stage which isn't much of a surprise.

Passing? I don't think the gap is as large as what is being portrayed. At the beginning of the season (first 25 games)? Sure. Irving was still figuring out his teammates and he would often have trouble hitting them where they wanted it and in the shooting pocket.

In the last month, he has cut down on his turnovers and been much better at distributing. He averaged 6 assists and 2.8 turnovers per game in February, which isn't bad when you consider the scoring load that he is being asked to carry on an offensively challenged team.

I'm not saying that there is a right answer to this debate. I understand why people would take Wall. I just think it is absurd to even insinuate that their respective handles are even close to equal... they aren't and probably never will be. That is probably Irving's greatest strength and a weakness of Wall.

At the end of the day, I'm happy we have Irving. I'm sure Washington fans are happy with Wall.

That's really all that matters.

[alexthegr8]

Simply put, NuggetsFan... If Wall was the player that you posted above, he'd be a lot better than he is. And, you are severely underrating Irving, probably due to lack of watching the Cavs play (which is understandable).

Wall's handle is nowhere close to Irving's handle. It is as lopsided as their respective jumpshots. No bullsh!t. Bill Simmons compared Irving's ball-handling skills to Kevin Johnson in a recent article. That says a lot.

Time will tell... And I think your tune will change quite a bit the more you are exposed to this kid (and, yeah... he is still a kid).

There is no point in discussing it anymore, because I don't believe you've seen enough Irving. If you think the only thing he has on Wall is a jumpshot, you haven't watched enough... Or you don't know basketball, which I don't believe is the case.

Saying Wall's handle is nowhere close to Irving's is hyperbole, but Irving's handle is better than Wall's. It's really just due to the fact that Wall's arms are so much longer than Irving's. Wall's wingspan is 6'10 which is long as hell, probably the longest of any pg in the nba (at least the longest I can think of), Irving's is only about 6'4, which isn't really that long at all.

This hurts Wall in terms of ball handling, generally the longer your arms, the more difficult it is to be an elite ball-handler, but it's also the reason that many people believe that Wall can develop into an elite defender at his position (along with his height, quickness, strength and other athletic gifts; it could also make him a significant threat in the post should he ever develop that part of his game).

[RedBlackAttack]

Saying Wall's handle is nowhere close to Irving's is hyperbole, but Irving's handle is better than Wall's. It's really just due to the fact that Wall's arms are so much longer than Irving's. Wall's wingspan is 6'10 which is long as hell, probably the longest of any pg in the nba (at least the longest I can think of), Irving's is only about 6'4, which isn't really that long at all.

This hurts Wall in terms of ball handling, generally the longer your arms, the more difficult it is to be an elite ball-handler, but it's also the reason that many people believe that Wall can develop into an elite defender at his position (along with his height, quickness, strength and other athletic gifts; it could also make him a significant threat in the post should he ever develop that part of his game).
Wall does have long arms, but wingspan isn't necessarily the best way to measure the length of the arm from shoulder to fingertip. Wall has massively broad shoulders which gives him the distinct edge in wingspan.

If you look at their standing reach, which I actually do think is a better indicator of strictly length and not the width of the torso, it is much closer. Irving also has long arms. His shoulders just aren't broad.

Standing reach:
Wall - 8'5.5"
Irving - 8'3"

Wall was measured with a height 0.5" taller than Irving, so when you take that into account, their reach isn't all that far in Wall's favor.


Anyway, all of this talk about physical measurements... What's the difference? Irving just has a much better handle.

[NuggetsFan]

Passing? I don't think the gap is as large as what is being portrayed. At the beginning of the season (first 25 games)? Sure. Irving was still figuring out his teammates and he would often have trouble hitting them where they wanted it and in the shooting pocket.

In the last month, he has cut down on his turnovers and been much better at distributing. He averaged 6 assists and 2.8 turnovers per game in February, which isn't bad when you consider the scoring load that he is being asked to carry on an offensively challenged team.


And John Wall is averaging something like 8-9 assists in Febaury. The gap isn't like LeBron to Melo large .. but it's big enough to see. Irving has surpassed 10 assists like once? John Wall has hit 15 twice this month. I hate the assist statistic but there's no denying in terms of getting others involved Wall has been doing it better than Irving .. now and in his rookie season.

As for the ball handling maybe that's just me. I don't think Wall is bad at it. I think he plays out of control at times and because of that it can look sloppy but when he's under control it's just fine. I don't watch a shit ton of Cavs games but with LP it's easy to watch bits and pieces. Irving isn't an elite ball handler to me and nowadays every PG seems like they have a decent handle. There's Elite and than everybody else to me in that area. I wouldn't consider Irving elite, not sure if the general consensus would and if it's just me that's not seeing it.


Simply put, NuggetsFan... If Wall was the player that you posted above, he'd be a lot better than he is

I actually think his rookie season is extremely underrated and overshadowed by B.Griffin's coming out party. 16\8\5 with close to 2 steals a game and he dealt with some injury issues. 26 double doubles, 1 triple double. Once again struggled with turnovers, wasn't extremely efficient and that to me once again is because he plays out of control sometimes. Not lack of skill. He has good offensive awareness just hasn't put it all together. Obviously a problem but not a large one unless he still hasn't figured it out 5 years from now.

Think everybody has big expectations for him this year and had a slow start. Personally don't like the fact that his shooting is still awful. Obviously can't expect Rose like strides(Wall was similar to Rose his rookie year) but thought there should be a little improvement atleast.

Past month he's doing 19\9\5 with .9 blocks and 1.4 steals a game. Actually shooting pretty efficient as well. Probably finish with similar numbers to his rookie season. Next year if there isn't improvement and he doesn't take that next step than there's probably cause for concern.

I'm obviously really high on Wall where as your really high on Irving so probably best to just agree to disagree :lol

[RedBlackAttack]

And John Wall is averaging something like 8-9 assists in Febaury. The gap isn't like LeBron to Melo large .. but it's big enough to see. Irving has surpassed 10 assists like once? John Wall has hit 15 twice this month. I hate the assist statistic but there's no denying in terms of getting others involved Wall has been doing it better than Irving .. now and in his rookie season.

As for the ball handling maybe that's just me. I don't think Wall is bad at it. I think he plays out of control at times and because of that it can look sloppy but when he's under control it's just fine. I don't watch a shit ton of Cavs games but with LP it's easy to watch bits and pieces. Irving isn't an elite ball handler to me and nowadays every PG seems like they have a decent handle. There's Elite and than everybody else to me in that area. I wouldn't consider Irving elite, not sure if the general consensus would and if it's just me that's not seeing it.

Wall is also playing many more minutes than Kyrie and he averaged over 4 turnovers a game in February as compared to 2.8 for Kyrie. The fact that Kyrie has already really cut his turnovers down this year and upped his assists each month tells me a lot.

Just look at the month-by-month numbers for Kyrie...

January - 4.7 assists, 3.4 turnovers
February - 5.6 assists, 2.8 turnovers

He's actually very quickly acclimating himself to the pro game... A lot faster than most teenagers who enter the league.

I also think that you have to take into account the respective differences in their rookie seasons. First of all, Kyrie Irving played 11 games for Duke, was drafted No. 1 and then was basically not allowed to have any contact with the Cavs until a couple of weeks before the season started.

Now, with this ridiculous condensed schedule, he is being asked to go out and -- much of the time -- carry a team on consecutive nights... Even three straight nights in some instances.

I think what Irving has done so far this year considering all of the things he had stacked against him is pretty amazing...

Going to a team with very little offense. Having basically no training camp or preseason. Being asked to go out and perform with a schedule that even seasoned vets are struggling with.

Yet, the guy is putting up 19 points, 5 assists and 4 rebounds on 48% from the field, 87% from the line and 42% from 3... and with a 21.16 PER. On 31 minutes a night.

He also had led the Cavs to playoff contention before Varejao went down and basically crushed any hopes of that.

Think about those numbers in the context of him being a very inexperienced 19-year-old with these kinds of obstacles facing him in this very weird season.

Frankly, I don't think there is enough discussion about how well he has done. You talk about Wall being overshadowed by Griffin... When is the last time a point guard stepped into the league and averaged 19/5/4 on 48/86/42? Any guard, for that matter?


I'm obviously really high on Wall where as your really high on Irving so probably best to just agree to disagree :lol

Yeah, I agree with that and I have nothing against Wall. That said, I encourage you to watch more of Kyrie when you have the chance. I think you will be surprised at his skillset, particularly his handle, which has been giving NBA defenses absolute fits since the moment he stepped on the floor in this league. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHRPDe5lMxs)

Oh, and Iman Shumpert is supposed to be the best defensive guard of the 2011 class?

Watch this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFiIiypFQKw)

He is just smooth. No wasted motion at all.

[NuggetsFan]

Wall is also playing many more minutes than Kyrie and he averaged over 4 turnovers a game in February as compared to 2.8 for Kyrie. The fact that Kyrie has already really cut his turnovers down this year and upped his assists each month tells me a lot.

Just look at the month-by-month numbers for Kyrie...

January - 4.7 assists, 3.4 turnovers
February - 5.6 assists, 2.8 turnovers

He's actually very quickly acclimating himself to the pro game... A lot faster than most teenagers who enter the league.

I also think that you have to take into account the respective differences in their rookie seasons. First of all, Kyrie Irving played 11 games for Duke, was drafted No. 1 and then was basically not allowed to have any contact with the Cavs until a couple of weeks before the season started.

Now, with this ridiculous condensed schedule, he is being asked to go out and -- much of the time -- carry a team on consecutive nights... Even three straight nights in some instances.

I think what Irving has done so far this year considering all of the things he had stacked against him is pretty amazing...

Going to a team with very little offense. Having basically no training camp or preseason. Being asked to go out and perform with a schedule that even seasoned vets are struggling with.

Yet, the guy is putting up 19 points, 5 assists and 4 rebounds on 48% from the field, 87% from the line and 42% from 3... and with a 21.16 PER. On 31 minutes a night.

He also had led the Cavs to playoff contention before Varejao went down and basically crushed any hopes of that.

Think about those numbers in the context of him being a very inexperienced 19-year-old with these kinds of obstacles facing him in this very weird season.

Frankly, I don't think there is enough discussion about how well he has done. You talk about Wall being overshadowed by Griffin... When is the last time a point guard stepped into the league and averaged 19/5/4 on 48/86/42? Any guard, for that matter?



Yeah, I agree with that and I have nothing against Wall. That said, I encourage you to watch more of Kyrie when you have the chance. I think you will be surprised at his skillset, particularly his handle, which has been giving NBA defenses absolute fits since the moment he stepped on the floor in this league. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHRPDe5lMxs)

Oh, and Iman Shumpert is supposed to be the best defensive guard of the 2011 class?

Watch this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFiIiypFQKw)

He is just smooth. No wasted motion at all.

I do agree Kyrie is flying under the radar and I've pretty much been wrong about him everytime it's came up. Thought he'd bust, he didn't. Thought he'd slow down and the opposite seems to be happening. Doesn't seem to get much love on ISH but the league is so PG dominated so maybe that's why, who knows.

As for the handle that's something I will actually try to pay some attention to because honestly seems like something I've missed. Besides the elite few never pay a whole lot of attention to things like that.

Either way if John Wall turns out to be a run of the mill PG I'm 100% ready to eat some crow because honestly believe he has a shot at being the legit best PG in the league. Had tons of hype coming in but seems like that's gone nowadays :lol

[rknine15]

"Never looked back" implies that the game was never in doubt. And, it was in serious doubt right down to the final buzzer.

Well that's how you implied it. I implied it as the team never giving up the lead and always being ahead(never trailing).

[DMVLeGenD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7To6fwuqg9E

[rknine15]

Btw, Byron Scott just said in his postgame presser that Kyrie was "at about 75% tonight."

John Wall being playing with a dislocated pinky.....