The rejection of god and religion seems to lead to depraved acts of mass murder

[Nick Young]

The French Revolution
Pol Pot's reign in cambodia
Lenin and the Red Terror
Stalin's regime
Nazi Germany
Cuba and Che Guevera's mass murder of 1000s by firing squad.
Vietnam
Mao Zedong
Kim Jong Il

What do all of these governments have in common? They consciously rejected god and religion. And they have disgustingly high death and murder counts.

Point out the witch hunts and the crusades? I did the math, The Reign of Terror lasted about 8 months, and had a comparable total deathcount to the witchhunts which lasted 200 years.

Everything Hitler and Stalin did blows away anything that happened during the crusades.

Everyone is always saying Jesus is the biggest mass murderer of all time and religion leads to all this bloodshed.

While I can't deny religion has lead to much bloodshed in the past and currently, as it clearly has, atheism and the rejection of god and religion has lead to a much higher level of depravity and murder.

It's hard to argue.

During the crusades both sides had MAX 25k each. Even if all 50k of those died, plus we can throw in 100k civilian deaths (even though the actual number is nowhere near that) that's 150,000 deaths compared to the atheist stalin killing 20 million.

Can anyone argue this correlation?

[raiderfan19]

Zealotry leads to bloodshed. It doesn't particularly matter what direction said zealotry is in.(unless it's pacifism)

[Nick Young]

Zealotry leads to bloodshed. It doesn't particularly matter what direction said zealotry is in.(unless it's pacifism)
Yes.

But atheist zealotry seems to lead to an exponentially higher level of depravity than religious zealotry.

I'm just looking at the raw numbers as an outsider when I state this.

[joe]

I think it has more to do with overcentralized government power, than a lack of religion. A lot of examples on your list support that, as well.

You allow a political position with unlimited power, and eventually a sociopath is going to take it over. It's a guarantee.


The most detailed discussion of the role of religion in the Rwandan genocide is Timothy Longman's Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda.[5] He argues that both Catholic and Protestant churches helped to make the genocide possible by giving moral sanction to the killing. Churches had longed played ethnic politics themselves, favoring the Tutsi during the colonial period then switching allegiance to the Hutu after 1959, sending a message that ethnic discrimination was consistent with church teaching. The church leaders had also long had close ties with the political leaders, and after the genocide began, the church leaders called on the population to support the new interim government, the very government that was supporting the genocide.

[Nick Young]

Yeah, because the Crusades were just pillow fights.
The total death count of all 7 crusades does not even come close to 1 million.

Probably more about 500k TOTAL MAX.

Hitler alone did about 24 times that in 3 years.

What is your point in bringing up the crusades?

[Nick Young]

I think it has more to do with overcentralized government power, than a lack of religion. A lot of examples on your list support that, as well.

You allow a political position with unlimited power, and eventually a sociopath is going to take it over. It's a guarantee.
Death count in the Rwandan genocide, estimated between 500k and 1 million

Stalin did 20 times that.

Your example only serves to emphasize my original thesis.

Also the Tutsi and the Hutu is a racial thing (despite the fact they are racially the same) rather than a religious thing.

[cuad]

Did all these murders happen in the name of athesism?

I mean.

Those governments all had penises. Did they murder in the name of the ***** also?

[Nick Young]

Did all these murders happen in the name of athesism?

I mean.

Those governments all had penises. Did they murder in the name of the ***** also?
Not in the name of atheism. But can you deny the fact that all of the largest genocides throughout human history have been committed by atheist governments, and nothing that any religious government has ever done can compare to them in terms of large-scale death count?

Has a religious government ever had a murder count comparable to the governments of pol pot, mao, stalin or hitler?

There have been other murderous dictators who were religious, but none of them have done anything comparable to what Hitler or stalin have done.

To emphasize this fact, there are also a much smaller amount of athiest leaders and governments throughout history.

[raiderfan19]

I'm religious but the reason the crusades didn't cause more deaths is because there were less people

[Nick Young]

I'm religious but the reason the crusades didn't cause more deaths is because there were less people
Do you compare soldiers who die on the battle field to civilians executed on a mass scale, like for example in the reign of terror?

[Kblaze8855]

Has anyone killed as many people as Japan in and around WW2?

[vapid]

Briefly skimmed, but atheism is a pretty new concept. Religion and government have been intertwined for the most part until the last century or so. So those mass-murdering governments will be more efficient in killing more densely populated groups of people.

[Nick Young]

Has anyone killed as many people as Japan in and around WW2?
yep, his name is Joseph Stalin.

[miller-time]

correlation does not equal causation. there are other factors besides rejecting religion that caused these travesties. most of them come under some type of state fanaticism (which is akin to religious fervent belief) and/or socioeconomic or political disparity.

[Nick Young]

Briefly skimmed, but atheism is a pretty new concept. Religion and government have been intertwined for the most part until the last century or so. So those mass-murdering governments will be more efficient in killing more densely populated groups of people.
Atheism is a new concept, so is government sanctioned large-scale mass murder, which also seems to correspond with the rise of atheist governments.

[miller-time]

I'm religious but the reason the crusades didn't cause more deaths is because there were less people

additionally they didn't have the means to kill that many people. when you have the luftwaffe, armored tanks and radio communication it increases your killing power exponentially.

[Nick Young]

correlation does not equal causation. there are other factors besides rejecting religion that caused these travesties. most of them come under some type of state fanaticism (which is akin to religious fervent belief) and/or socioeconomic or political disparity.
Yes agreed. But what I'm saying is being religious seems to lead to a certain cut-off point in terms of mass moral depravity, whereas having no religion seems to have no cut off point in terms of morally disgusting acts that humans will commit.

My rhetoric is abit off at the moment as I have 24 hours no sleep from studying and doing coursework, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

[LJJ]

The "most evil" regime of the last century, Nazi Germany, was very religious and largely endorsed by the religious establishment that existed in Germany and Europe at the time. The holocaust was actually only and exclusively made possible because of biases established due to religion.

[Nick Young]

The "most evil" regime of the last century, Nazi Germany, was very religious and largely endorsed by the religious establishment that existed in Germany and Europe at the time. The holocaust was actually only and exclusively made possible because of biases established due to religion.
even as a Jew I have to consider Stalin's russia to be more "evil" than Nazi germany. Much higher death count. And Nazism's religious emphasis can be argued.

[miller-time]

Yes agreed. But what I'm saying is being religious seems to lead to a certain cut-off point in terms of mass moral depravity, whereas having no religion seems to have no cut off point in terms of morally disgusting acts that humans will commit.

My rhetoric is abit off at the moment as I have 24 hours no sleep from studying and doing coursework, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

i understand what you are saying but i still disagree. the americans dropped the bomb on civilian targets, the british bombed german cities with horrific losses to civilian life to "lower moral" those are two examples of mass atrocities committed by "religiously backed" governments. obviously those two countries didn't initate the war, and i don't want to get into a conversation about the morality of dropping the bomb, my point is that mass deaths of civilians were options played out by the other side.

additionally, if you gave osama the bomb in 2001 do you think he would have used that instead? the delivery of mass death is only limited to the technology the person or group has at the time. give any pre-20th century religious war instigators the kinds of weapons we have now and see how many more people they kill.

[LJJ]

even as a Jew I have to consider Stalin's russia to be more "evil" than Nazi germany. Much higher death count. And Nazism's religious emphasis can be argued.

It can absolutely not be argued that Nazism rejected religion. Absolutely not. Revisionist history.


That leaves communism exclusively then. And pretty much only Stalin's Russia and a few marginal countries. (Because the horrors committed in Mao's China are actually quite overstated and subject to much negative propaganda here in the west)

Some trend you got there! Yeah, the Stalinistic communism is bad, you are really dropping intellectual gemstones here! Let's conveniently forget that Russia is at least 85% religious and at the time probably an even higher percentage. Let's forget almost all of the government officials of communist Russia were raised on Christian ideals and values. And above all let's forget that 99.99% of Russia's population under the Trarist Theocratic rule basically lived in horrible slavery for centuries. Very convenient indeed.

[Dasher]

The Catholic Franks under Charlemagne butchered their fare share of Saxons and other infidels under the guise of doing it for The Laws.

All mass murder in the ancient world could be argued to be theocratic genocide because of how intertwined religion was in every day life, warfare, and government.

The modern genocides you list were made possible by technological advances.

[Kblaze8855]

yep, his name is Joseph Stalin.


Stalin is supposed to be around 20 million. Japan killed more chinese alone than that.

[Jailblazers7]

I think the change in technology has a lot to do with the death count. Crusaders couldn't just call in an airstrike and level a city or unload a machine gun and kill 100 people.

[N0Skillz]

The French Revolution
Pol Pot's reign in cambodia
Lenin and the Red Terror
Stalin's regime
Nazi Germany
Cuba and Che Guevera's mass murder of 1000s by firing squad.
Vietnam
Mao Zedong
Kim Jong Il




In Mein Kampf and later in a speech at the Reichstag he said, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Oh, but he was just using that for rhetorical purposes, he didn

[heyhey]

The "most evil" regime of the last century, Nazi Germany, was very religious and largely endorsed by the religious establishment that existed in Germany and Europe at the time. The holocaust was actually only and exclusively made possible because of biases established due to religion.

many in nazi high command including hitler was not religious, certainly in the christian sense, and were interested in promoting even pre christian pagan german culture

they endorsed or tolerated the christian institutions because of how instilled they were and because it provided easy course to anti-semitism. I don't think anyone believe nazi germany to be some religious fanatical state

[Jackass18]

Yes agreed. But what I'm saying is being religious seems to lead to a certain cut-off point in terms of mass moral depravity, whereas having no religion seems to have no cut off point in terms of morally disgusting acts that humans will commit.

My rhetoric is abit off at the moment as I have 24 hours no sleep from studying and doing coursework, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

No, not really. People have done some awfully ****ed up things in the name of religion.

[LJJ]

many in nazi high command including hitler was not religious, certainly in the christian sense, and were interested in re-establishing german paganism.

they endorsed or tolerated the christian institutions because of how instilled they were and because it provided easy course to anti-semitism. I don't think anyone believe nazi germany to be some religious fanatical state

Revisionist. Nowadays Christian apologetics love nothing more then to point out a handful of disputable and entirely inconsistent "proofs" that show that the Nazis weren't part of their club, but that certainly wasn't the case at the time.

There was a only a very small percentage of the German population that wasn't Christian during Nazi rule. It's insane to try and state that "many in Nazi high command weren't Christian". Completely false. And Nazi practices were either wholesomely endorsed, or silently endorsed by nearly all Christian institutions that had any contact with it including the papacy.

[heyhey]

Revisionist. Nowadays Christian apologetics love nothing more then to point out a handful of disputable and entirely inconsistent "proofs" that show that the Nazis weren't part of their club, but that certainly wasn't the case at the time.

There was a only a very small percentage of the German population that wasn't Christian during Nazi rule. It's insane to try and state that "many in Nazi high command weren't Christian". Completely false. And Nazi practices were either wholesomely endorsed, or silently endorsed by nearly all Christian institutions that had any contact with it including the papacy.

Nazi germany was a totalitarian state, meaning the state tried to control all aspect of private life including religion. I'm saying that despite its anti semitism nazi germany wasn't a theocratic state unlike say Iran.

Hitler and co weren't interested in the spreading and establishment of some christian kingdom, they wanted a german state and subvert christianity to fit their program. In a totalitarian regime, the ultimate and only loyalty is to the state - religion is secondary and must be in line with the regime.

Sure many christians were complicit in the holocaust but I wouldn't call nazi germany religiously motivated. In fact nazi anti-semitism was seldomly justified using religious means as opposed to social darwinism, pseudoeugenics.

I think there's a difference between bad things done by christians and bad things done in name of christianity.

[LJJ]

Nazi germany was a totalitarian state, meaning the state tried to control all aspect of private life including religion. I'm saying that despite its anti semitism nazi germany wasn't a theocratic state unlike say Iran.

Hitler and co weren't interested in the spreading and establishment of some christian kingdom, they wanted a german state and subvert christianity to fit their program. In a totalitarian regime, the ultimate and only loyalty is to the state - religion is secondary and must be in line with the regime.

Sure many christians were complicit in the holocaust but I wouldn't call nazi germany religiously motivated. In fact nazi anti-semitism was seldomly justified using religious means as opposed to social darwinism, pseudoeugenics.

I think there's a difference between bad things done by christians and bad things done in name of christianity.

The OP tries to show a correlation between "the rejection of god and religion" and "depraved acts of mass murder", using Nazi Germany as an example.

There was nothing non-religious or rejecting of god in Nazism, in fact Nazi's embraced religion and vice versa.



Never did I post that Nazi's did their thing because they were Christians (although you could certainly make a convincing case it was an important prerequisite). Read the premise of the thread boyo.

[joe]

I think this is the wrong connection to be making.

The big connection is between strong, central governments and mass murder.

And while people play the democrat Vs. republican game, the US federal government has made it legal to assassinate or kidnap us if it suspects us of being terrorists. The president is starting offensive wars on his own will, and thousands of new laws are being added every year. Our economy is overregulated by unchecked bureaucrats, and our money is being printed to the point of worthlessness.

The mainstream media ignores these issues. The people largely ignore them. Every presidential candidate but one is on the same page when it comes to these issues. I won't get into that, but you bitches know how I feel.

[sawyersauce]

These are all unusual outliers. Every example cited in the OP was either an active revolution or a totalitarian regime. They were all subject to unique socio-political circumstances, or extreme eliminationist ideology. There have been millions of atheists who were normal decent human beings. Picking a bunch of extreme political regimes that committed horrific crimes and trying to pass that off as an accurate representation of all of atheism is ridiculously reductive.

And none of these crimes were carried out 'in the name of atheism'. Atheism was not a motive. There were either distinct ideologies divorced from atheism or clear political motivations (such as consolidating power) at work. Can you say the same for the Crusades or the Inquisition?


Yes agreed. But what I'm saying is being religious seems to lead to a certain cut-off point in terms of mass moral depravity, whereas having no religion seems to have no cut off point in terms of morally disgusting acts that humans will commit.


Tell that to the children who were systemically raped by Catholic Priests.

It was the very fact that those Priests were assumed to be pious morally sound men that allowed them to avoid scrutiny and get away with their crimes for so long. It

[joe]

I don't get why people are so against being able to assassinate terrorists. Once they start assassinating people for political gain is when you should get worried. Democracy doesn't exist because of written laws. It exists because people uphold and believe in it. Killing terrorists doesn't change that lol

Because, who defines what a terrorist is? How do we know someone is guilty, once accused? That's what the courts are for. If we give the state the power to assassinate American citizens they "suspect" of being terrorists, all Americans are at risk. Especially with the dubious definition of terrorism that has been established here.

Think about it as rapists instead of terrorists. Imagine it was legal for the government to assassinate anyone they suspected of being a rapist. And, they could legally kidnap suspected rapists and lock them in secret military prisons. No trial, no innocent until proven guilty, nothing.

Now, anyone is at risk of being killed or tortured or locked in Guantanemo Bay, whether they're guilty or not. If some higher up in the Presidents cabinet doesn't like you for whatever reason.. your life is over. Do you see how that's alarming?

And you have to think in terms of the future. Right now, it seems impossible that our government would do anything like that. But what if terrorists attack the US again? What if the economy starts to really stumble and go into the dumps? What if occupy wall street becomes less peaceful? And now, imagine if someone like Rick Santorum is president at the time. Or, some political, lying sociopath that we've yet to be introduced to? These powers are now on the books for these people. It's not like the powers fade away when Obama leaves office.

[Milton]

Most of those examples are flawed Nazi Germany for example emphasized its Christianity. Also i would argue that all the communist examples did not abandon religion just switched there god from god to the government or state. A better way to look at this is big powerful central governments lead to mass murder.

[Jackass18]

How about we blame the people and not their religious affiliation? There's plenty of examples of religious people doing dispicable things (just look at serial killers). Some people just had the means to kill on a grander scale. How many people did Hussein kill and torture?

[RidonKs]

The Catholic Franks under Charlemagne butchered their fare share of Saxons and other infidels under the guise of doing it for The Laws.

All mass murder in the ancient world could be argued to be theocratic genocide because of how intertwined religion was in every day life, warfare, and government.

The modern genocides you list were made possible by technological advances.
this sums it up nicely. terrible thread.

[GilZero]

Sweden is THE LEAST religious country in the world as of today. Also one of the best rated economies (better than the US, though smaller of course), and most peaceful country in modern times, stayed out of every major war.

Religion is for the weak minded.

[dunksby]

I think it's time we elevated Nick Young to Godzuki/Bladers status.

[QUIZZLE]

I don't get why Nick Young creates threads that I don't he genuinely gives a shit about. He just does it to start controversy and get big views. No one cares about your threads Nicholaus.

[Nanners]

I think it's time we elevated Nick Young to Godzuki/Bladers status.

its kind of cute how every week nick young posts a thread on the newest world ending revelation he had during his women studies class at community college. the thread on feminism from last week was actually fvcking hilariously stupid. he is pretty damn similar to bladers in a lot of ways, the black and white worldview being one example. i dunno if he needs to be elevated, i think nick young has already achieved bladers status of lifetime troll.

[Nick Young]

It can absolutely not be argued that Nazism rejected religion. Absolutely not. Revisionist history.


That leaves communism exclusively then. And pretty much only Stalin's Russia and a few marginal countries. (Because the horrors committed in Mao's China are actually quite overstated and subject to much negative propaganda here in the west)

Some trend you got there! Yeah, the Stalinistic communism is bad, you are really dropping intellectual gemstones here! Let's conveniently forget that Russia is at least 85% religious and at the time probably an even higher percentage. Let's forget almost all of the government officials of communist Russia were raised on Christian ideals and values. And above all let's forget that 99.99% of Russia's population under the Trarist Theocratic rule basically lived in horrible slavery for centuries. Very convenient indeed.
"Marginal countries"

Pol Pot in 3 years killing 10 times the amount of people killed in the European witchhunts over 200 years. How is that marginal?

[Nick Young]

The OP tries to show a correlation between "the rejection of god and religion" and "depraved acts of mass murder", using Nazi Germany as an example.

There was nothing non-religious or rejecting of god in Nazism, in fact Nazi's embraced religion and vice versa.



Never did I post that Nazi's did their thing because they were Christians (although you could certainly make a convincing case it was an important prerequisite). Read the premise of the thread boyo.

Stop going off on tangents and arguing sub-points in order to distract from the original thesis.

Jesus christ this always happens on here, people are confronted with an inconvenient truth they do not want to accept or deal with, so to make themselves feel better they go off on some random tangent and begin arguing a minor detail in order to avoid discussing the big picture.

[Nick Young]

[QUOTE=sawyersauce]These are all unusual outliers. Every example cited in the OP was either an active revolution or a totalitarian regime. They were all subject to unique socio-political circumstances, or extreme eliminationist ideology. There have been millions of atheists who were normal decent human beings. Picking a bunch of extreme political regimes that committed horrific crimes and trying to pass that off as an accurate representation of all of atheism is ridiculously reductive.

And none of these crimes were carried out 'in the name of atheism'. Atheism was not a motive. There were either distinct ideologies divorced from atheism or clear political motivations (such as consolidating power) at work. Can you say the same for the Crusades or the Inquisition?



Tell that to the children who were systemically raped by Catholic Priests.

It was the very fact that those Priests were assumed to be pious morally sound men that allowed them to avoid scrutiny and get away with their crimes for so long. [B]It

[lakers_forever]

It can absolutely not be argued that Nazism rejected religion. Absolutely not. Revisionist history.


Hitler had quotes praising God and Christianity, but also had quotes like these:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.

[Nick Young]

Religion is for the weak minded.
Rejecting religion is for the weak minded. People have evolved to have a god instinct for a reason. Why are you consciously trying to fight your natural instincts? Because Bill Maher told you atheists are cool and you are a mindless sheep?:confusedshrug:

[Nick Young]

its kind of cute how every week nick young posts a thread on the newest world ending revelation he had during his women studies class at community college. the thread on feminism from last week was actually fvcking hilariously stupid. he is pretty damn similar to bladers in a lot of ways, the black and white worldview being one example. i dunno if he needs to be elevated, i think nick young has already achieved bladers status of lifetime troll.
This has nothing to do with that damn visual communication in the mass media lecture bullshit class, and btw the prof came up to me last week and personally apologized to me and then encouraged me to speak out more because she could see I was a thinker who worked out his own ideas rather than blindly follow the ideas they are told to follow.

LAWL I'm the one with the black and white world views? Just read all the responses in this thread! I seem to be the only one WITHOUT black and white world views.

Everywhere I go my views cause chaos, because idiots get uncomfortable when confronted with uncomfortable truths and then lash out at the messenger.

I'm like goddamn Neitsche or Thomas Paine, why do my opinions always draw such emotional responses? I just want normal discussions free from personal insult, why is that so hard to find.

[lakers_forever]

And OP, give up. Atheists will never admit anything wrong done in the name of atheism.

Although I must say that money (gold, silver), land and power have been the the main reasons for 99% of wars in human history. Religion or lack of religion is a secundary issue.

[Nick Young]

And OP, give up. Atheists will never admit anything wrong done in the name of atheism.

Although I must say that money (gold, silver), land and power have been the the main reasons for 99% of wars in human history. Religion or lack of religion is a secundary issue.
Blaming religion or land or power for wars is wrong in my opinion. Warring is also an embedded part of human instinct as well, even if everyone had a high standard of living and there was no hunger people would make excuses to fight, whether it is religious differences, racial differences, or something is. I am just saying this looking at every recorded war through history.

[dunksby]

its kind of cute how every week nick young posts a thread on the newest world ending revelation he had during his women studies class at community college. the thread on feminism from last week was actually fvcking hilariously stupid. he is pretty damn similar to bladers in a lot of ways, the black and white worldview being one example. i dunno if he needs to be elevated, i think nick young has already achieved bladers status of lifetime troll.
I think it's good for him to realize how stupid he used to be now that he is learning how stupid he is right now after all of his recent discoveries.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/15601128.jpg

[Batz]

Rejecting religion is for the weak minded. People have evolved to have a god instinct for a reason. Why are you consciously trying to fight your natural instincts? Because Bill Maher told you atheists are cool and you are a mindless sheep?:confusedshrug:
http://loltheists.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/bruce1.png

[Nick Young]

http://loltheists.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/bruce1.png
Because there are idiots who interpret the bible literally, we should just ignore all other religions on earth, including non abrahamaic religions and we should consciously fight against our embedded god instinct?

Brilliant insight Bruce Willis:facepalm

[rufuspaul]

Because there are idiots who interpret the bible literally, we should just ignore all other religions on earth, including non abrahamaic religions and we should consciously fight against our embedded god instinct?

Brilliant insight Bruce Willis:facepalm


There's a reason Scientology is so popular among celebrities. My usual response when celebs start pontificating on matters of politics or religion is to say "shut up and stick to acting". But in Willis' case he just needs to enjoy his 2nd wife and the rest of his life getting recognized occasionally in restaurants.

[LJJ]

Stop going off on tangents and arguing sub-points in order to distract from the original thesis.

Jesus christ this always happens on here, people are confronted with an inconvenient truth they do not want to accept or deal with, so to make themselves feel better they go off on some random tangent and begin arguing a minor detail in order to avoid discussing the big picture.

It's not a subpoint. Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly religious. The Japanese Empire was overwhelmingly religious. Together with Stalin's SU these are easily the top three most mass murderous regimes of the last century.

This is not a minor point. This is a completely debunking of your core assumption.

[RidonKs]

no man, you're missing the forest for the trees!

[Jackass18]

If you want to make it just a number's game, then what about apocalyptic religious groups that want to bring about the end times? Are we going to ignore them because they just haven't been successful in their goals yet? There are religious terrorist groups that would have killed on a grand scale if they had the means, but thankfully they were either too stupid, too crazy, too big of **** ups, etc. to be able to obtain the necessary power, influence, weaponry, etc. to complete their goals. If you want a correlation, then look at sanity.

[tpols]

And none of these crimes were carried out 'in the name of atheism'. Atheism was not a motive. There were either distinct ideologies divorced from atheism or clear political motivations (such as consolidating power) at work..
Isn't Stalin quoted as saying he didnt care what happened on this earth or what he did because he thought nothing happened after you die? He wasnt afraid of consequences and it dramatically lowered his moral standards..

[Nick Young]

If you want to make it just a number's game, then what about apocalyptic religious groups that want to bring about the end times? Are we going to ignore them because they just haven't been successful in their goals yet? There are religious terrorist groups that would have killed on a grand scale if they had the means, but thankfully they were either too stupid, too crazy, too big of **** ups, etc. to be able to obtain the necessary power, influence, weaponry, etc. to complete their goals. If you want a correlation, then look at sanity.
So the point you are trying to make is that religious governments are more bloodthirsty than atheist governments because hypothetically in your theory they maybe might have had intent to commit more murder than they actually did?

And this hypothetical intent makes their regime worse than the atheist regimes that actually have committed disturbing acts of mass murder?

Is that the point you just tried to make?
Because that's what you just said, jackass:hammerhead:

[Jackass18]

So the point you are trying to make is that religious governments are more bloodthirsty than atheist governments because hypothetically in your theory they maybe might have had intent to commit more murder than they actually did?

And this hypothetical intent makes their regime worse than the atheist regimes that actually have committed disturbing acts of mass murder?

Is that the point you just tried to make?
Because that's what you just said, jackass:hammerhead:

That's not what I'm saying. Whatever, go on with your little agenda, kiddo

[Nick Young]

That's not what I'm saying. Whatever, go on with your little agenda, kiddo
its exactly what you said bozo, whether you meant to or not:facepalm

[sawyersauce]

Isn't Stalin quoted as saying he didnt care what happened on this earth or what he did because he thought nothing happened after you die? He wasnt afraid of consequences and it dramatically lowered his moral standards..

Okay. That doesn

[LJJ]

Isn't Stalin quoted as saying he didnt care what happened on this earth or what he did because he thought nothing happened after you die? He wasnt afraid of consequences and it dramatically lowered his moral standards..

I wonder if Stalin was raised on humanistic values, valuing all human life equally, if he would have been the same ruthless leader?

You know.

Instead of being raised by very strict Orthodox Christian standards that basically instills the idea in you that all people who don't follow your exact belief are an inferior type of human doomed for eternal punishment. The kind of teaching that breeds a total intolerance towards any one of different school of thought than yourself.

I'm sure that upbringing had nothing to do with it! Stalin wasn't shaped by silly things like upbringing and education at all!

[tpols]

[QUOTE=sawyersauce]Okay. That doesn

[Nick Young]

The French Revolution. Never before in human history had as much blood been spilled in such a short amount of time as was spilled in the reign of terror.

The French Revolution is also the first consciously atheist revolution.

[Jackass18]

its exactly what you said bozo, whether you meant to or not:facepalm

Umm, no, and when I said go on with your agenda I didn't mean with me. Shit gets boring when someone only wants to see want they want to see.

[heyhey]

I think it's mistake on both sides to try and blame religion or blame atheism for the genocides and violence of the 20th century.

20th century was the most secular century to date and the genocidal regimes of the century were not religious.

Totalitarianism is an unique feature of the 20th century and in the totalitarian state religion is but another aspect of private life to be controlled and aligned with the aim of the state. Hence nazi germany, fascist italy, even imperial japan, cannot be considered religious regimes, they are regimes that encompassed and subverted religion to fit greater agenda. It's important not to conflate the religious nature of the populace with the singular ideology of the regimes themselves.

Its safe to say whenever religion or atheism is politicized to a large degree that's bad for the general population.




Instead of being raised by very strict Orthodox Christian standards that basically instills the idea in you that all people who don't follow your exact belief are an inferior type of human doomed for eternal punishment. The kind of teaching that breeds a total intolerance towards any one of different school of thought than yourself.

so how about the number of philanthropists and missionary workers who spend life servicing the poor that were brought up religiously? are those people not influenced by their religious upbringing?

It's ridiculous to hold the orthodox christians to be responsible for Stalin when he rebelled against the teachings of the church and spent years persecuting them to point of extinction.

I think people are viewing the events of the 20th century from the lens of religious extremism that characterized post 9/11 decade which is misleading.

[Nanners]

LAWL I'm the one with the black and white world views? Just read all the responses in this thread! I seem to be the only one WITHOUT black and white world views.

Everywhere I go my views cause chaos, because idiots get uncomfortable when confronted with uncomfortable truths and then lash out at the messenger.

I'm like goddamn Neitsche or Thomas Paine, why do my opinions always draw such emotional responses? I just want normal discussions free from personal insult, why is that so hard to find.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

yeah, nobody can handle your community college freshman philosophy mind-bending observations about society

you are either a very good troll or completely delusional.

[Nick Young]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

yeah, nobody can handle your community college freshman philosophy mind-bending observations about society

you are either a very good troll or completely delusional.
community college? Lawl.
Freshman? Lawl.

Like I have said, idiots are quick to categorize and dismiss arguments they do not like or understand.

[LJJ]

It's ridiculous to hold the orthodox christians to be responsible for Stalin when he rebelled against the teachings of the church and spent years persecution them to point of extinction.

I think people are viewing the events of the 20th century from the lens of religious extremism that characterized post 9/11 decade which is misleading.


It's ridiculous to completely disregard Stalin's ultra religious upbringing when discussing his ethics.

Even though he ended up rejecting religion, his upbringing still very much helped shape the man he became. His total disregard for the lives of anyone who doesn't share his core belief; you could definitely draw some interesting parallels there.

[Nanners]

community college? Lawl.
Freshman? Lawl.

Like I have said, idiots are quick to categorize and dismiss arguments they do not like or understand.

hey idiot, if you actually read the responses in this thread and you will see that multiple posters have already completely destroyed every single one of your arguments. i am not going to waste my own time pointing out all the ways you are completely wrong, considering that when other people point out all of your logical errors you just dismiss them without second thought.

yes, these "reality-shattering" observations you think you have about society and the world are issues that every college student discusses in elementary philosophy and sociology classes. in reality, all of your arguments and observations are tired and old for anybody with any experience in academia beyond high school. its actually kind of sad that you think you have these amazing revelations about the world and really you are too much of a mental midget to realize all your ideas are old and tired.

[Nick Young]

hey idiot, if you actually read the responses in this thread and you will see that multiple posters have already completely destroyed every single one of your arguments. i am not going to waste my own time pointing out all the ways you are completely wrong, considering that when other people point out all of your logical errors you just dismiss them without second thought.

yes, these "reality-shattering" observations you think you have about society and the world are issues that every college student discusses in elementary philosophy and sociology classes. in reality, all of your arguments and observations are tired and old for anybody with any experience in academia beyond high school. its actually kind of sad that you think you have these amazing revelations about the world and really you are too much of a mental midget to realize all your ideas are old and tired.
Mental midget, lawl, again with the personal insults and categorization.

Sorry sport, I was actually tested 99.9th percentile in the state of California. You will face my wrath in the future, sport

[Nanners]

Mental midget, lawl, again with the personal insults and categorization.

are you really going to keep crying about personal insults? you have no problem labelling me as an "idiot" in every single post you dumb fcking hypocrite.



Sorry sport, I was actually tested 99.9th percentile in the state of California. You will face my wrath in the future, sport

so your greatest academic achievements in life are testing well on placement exams and going to a good middle school, congratulations you winner. i guess i will stop pointing out your idiocy, cause i am quaking in my boots at the thought of facing you and your 99.9th percentile wrath. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

.....



:roll:

you must have down syndrome.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUIZZLE]

99.9 perctentile and you don't go to any Ivy League school? My asshole. Everything you say is complete shit. Get out.

[Hazard]

The acceptance of God and religion seems to lead to depraved acts of trolling on ISH.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Why is a retard from Die Hard 4 being quoted.

LoL. Why is it that the vast majority of atheists quote some buffoon and wear it proudly. "I'm not content with the idea of religion since it teaches people to stop thinking." SINCE WHEN DOES RELIGION (with the exception of the forbidden knowledge motif) advocate complete abandonment of thought. The Talmud (word to PullUpJay) and Qur'an encourage active seeking of knowledge. Jeez.

God these f*ckeres irk me. Swaggerless to the max.

At least the prophets and the jihad warriors had panache and courage. I'd rather have my dying moments be composed of ," Alas.. I have fought brave and well and now I shall go forth and spread my seed to the 72 olive-skinned, black-haired, green-eyed houris and enjoy them well" than "ZOMG the univverse is a beautiful place and now im gonna return the way I was before I was born."

On a sidenote, not saying it has to do with atheism (there's a million factors to the following) but trends out there that are not for the better.

- Lack of personal responsibility
- Effeminate males, Masculine females
- Depraved acts of murder
- Extremely deviant sexual behavior
- Weaker nuclear family ties and kinsmanship
- Stronger dependency on prescription drugs
- Suing everywhere and there
- Arrogance, narcissism, juvenile, entertaining being celebrated in lieu of chastity, diligence, justice, wisdom, fairness, selflessness
- Social Anxiety every where and that
- Increased gossip
- Less and less true friendships and the reduction of "brotehrhood" "sisterhood"
- Declining female happiness rates
- Declining divorce rates
- Obesity and hatred
- Complete lack of respect for authority (Not a bad thing necessarily, but for a good king or for a good police officer, yes..) Just got off the public bus and this girl was being all rude and sh!t and she said and the guy up front told her to pipe down and she screams and says UR NOT THE BOSS OF ME GO BACK TO CHINA MOTHERF*CKER and he gets sued... yeah...
- "I'll lose, and let you win" type mentality
- Celebration of the youth and condemnation fo the elderly
- Terrible gender interrelations
- Kids worshipping serial killers and sh!tty artists
- People actually imitating Jersey Shore and Stephen Colbert and accepting mocking as truth

Fortunately it's counteracted by a wealth of access to information a higher standard of living and all the sweet things everyday technology has.

Who wants to stand up and blend the past and the future? any takers?

[Nick Young]

What test? Post the results.

You're a know-nothing, delusional, ****** that couldn't execute your 'wrath' on a fly with no wings.
Check out Portola Highly Gifted Magnet, ******. Already posted my diploma from there:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Nick Young]

:bowdown:

Not only you have great business ideas you have also the solutions on every political economical problems. Now I see you know a lot of things about history and philosophy!
If only you could lead us!
Lead us to a better future!
Nick Young 4 president!
:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Nick Young]

99.9 perctentile and you don't go to any Ivy League school? My asshole. Everything you say is complete shit. Get out.
Intelligence does not go hand in hand with personal drive, ambition and doing well in school. It was only a few years ago since I started architecture that I actually starting putting in any effort in academia and developed sufficient drive and determination and decided to go after my dream and life's ambition.

[miller-time]

Who wants to stand up and blend the past and the future? any takers?

you can't have your cake and eat it too. enough blood has been shed to get to where we are now. trying to bring back the old decadent religiously backed ideals and institutions of the past will only drag us back down to the filth and squalor we came from. no we need to keep moving forward.