Does anyone here think that Jordan is NOT the GOAT?

[LABean]

Just wondering. :confusedshrug:

[Real Men Wear Green]

There is this one guy in LA with a case...Kareem. Ok, and there's another player from the Lakers that could be argued. Wilt Chamberlain was amazing.

[heyhey]

There is this one guy in LA with a case...Kareem. Ok, and there's another player from the Lakers that could be argued. Wilt Chamberlain was amazing.

If magic didn't have HIV it wouldn't even be close

[CelticBaller]

There is this one guy in LA with a case...Kareem. Ok, and there's another player from the Lakers that could be argued. Wilt Chamberlain was amazing.
:roll:

[Jotaro Durant]

kaj is the goat sorry mj cumguzzlers

[LABean]

There is this one guy in LA with a case...Kareem. Ok, and there's another player from the Lakers that could be argued. Wilt Chamberlain was amazing.


So you don't think Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Others, right? :applause:
That's all I see around here. :eek:

[(e)]

MJ let's be real

[CavaliersFTW]

I think Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Russell, and Bird are all equally deserving of the "greatest" recognition. I think whichever player is greater is determined strictly by how much homerism or fanbias the person has that is attempting to explain why player A or B is better than C or D.

Personally I drift towards Wilt or Kareem before I drift towards MJ or Russell, and after them I'd drift to Magic and Bird. I kind of find it cheesy to call one person the "greatest" - the entire criteria behind greatness is loosely defined and loaded with double-standards - ultimately those 5 guys contributed and accomplished more than anyone else I can think of.

[I<3NBA]

So you don't think Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Others, right? :applause:
That's all I see around here. :eek:
that's why Kobe fans are stupid. can't even detect sarcasm.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

*raises hand*

[madmax]

kaj is the goat sorry mj cumguzzlers
:applause:

[juju151111]

Mj is the Goat. Its that simple.

[Basketball Fan]

I don't these things are so subjective


I'd probably pick Kareem or Wilt over him as far as GOAT

Now the best at his position?


Yes and I hate the guy

[fos]

I don't think there is a clear cut GOAT simply because you can't compare across eras. You can have opinions on how MJ would do in the 60s or how Wilt would do in the modern NBA but the fact of the matter is you don't know and you never will.

[LBJMVP]

im sorry guys, but it's michael jordan.

[CavaliersFTW]

Mj is the Goat. Its that simple.

Interesting....

http://www.inc.com/uploaded_files/image/7-tips-for-using-personlity-tests-to-hire-pop_7870.jpg
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rorschach3-1.jpg
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rorschach5.jpg

...so, which one of these inkblots is greatest?

[Yanch856]

I don't think there is a clear cut GOAT simply because you can't compare across eras. You can have opinions on how MJ would do in the 60s or how Wilt would do in the modern NBA but the fact of the matter is you don't know and you never will.

uh.... MJ right now would be averaging 50ppg. Did you see him come back in the Wiz uniform playing AI, Kobe, Vince, and basically schooling the hell out of them (as much as a 40y/o can). Like that play where michael breaks Vince's ankle???

That's objective evidence right there MJ was goat. I give Kobe some cred for dropping 40 or so on MJ but he was 40 man. Let's see Kobe dropping 50 points or something on the NBA when he's 40. MJ had the best fundamentals period.

[Alamo]

I'm pretty sure I've seen someone here call Lebron better than MJ.

[I<3NBA]

Interesting....

http://www.inc.com/uploaded_files/image/7-tips-for-using-personlity-tests-to-hire-pop_7870.jpg
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rorschach3-1.jpg
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rorschach5.jpg

...so, which one of these inkblots is greatest?
MJ

[CelticBaller]

I'm pretty sure I've seen someone here call Lebron better than MJ.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[bwink23]

Being "GOAT" extends beyond what you do on a basketball court...and nobody has influenced the sport of basketball greater than Michael Jordan, in terms of popularity and growth, both here at home and worldwide....there was a time when Jordan was considered bigger than basketball itself.

[Derivative]

just like there are people out there who believes in aliens, or other stupid sh1t, yes there are people who think MJ is not the GOAT.

[CavaliersFTW]

uh.... MJ right now would be averaging 50ppg. Did you see him come back in the Wiz uniform playing AI, Kobe, Vince, and basically schooling the hell out of them (as much as a 40y/o can). Like that play where michael breaks Vince's ankle???

That's objective evidence right there MJ was goat. I give Kobe some cred for dropping 40 or so on MJ but he was 40 man. Let's see Kobe dropping 50 points or something on the NBA when he's 40. MJ had the best fundamentals period.

If you think MJ would be averaging 50

Than why wouldn't Wilt be averaging 75?... both guys said they could do produce these numbers :confusedshrug:

***waits for a homerism justification as to why a ridiculous 50ppg with MJ is possible yet the equally ridiculous notion of Wilt scoring 75ppg isn't possible***

[LBJMVP]

If you think MJ would be averaging 50

Than why wouldn't Wilt be averaging 75?... both guys said they could do produce these numbers :confusedshrug:

***waits for a homerism justification as to why a ridiculous 50ppg with MJ is possible yet the equally ridiculous notion of Wilt scoring 75ppg isn't***


wilt isnt the goat... im sorry. if you honestly believe he would even get close to a 50 point season if he started playing in the 80s or even 70s then you are beyond crazy.

he was a great player, but there is a reason why players today dont put up stats like that. the competition is way greater.


MJ is goat and probly always will be. if he isnt, then i hope i'm alive to watch a player that ends up better than him.

[k0kakw0rld]

MICHAEL JORDAN 5 MVP 6 FINALS 6 TITLES 6 FMVPs

BILL RUSSELL 13 Championships 11 as a player 2 as a player/coach 5x MVP If the mvp trophy existed when he played, he would've been at least a 10 time FMVP.

They named the most valuable individual honor a nba player can have in his honor. BILL RUSSELL GOAT

[LALakerFan4Life]

Michael Jeffery Jordan is the greatest of all time. He will be for a long, long time.

[-23-]

If you think MJ would be averaging 50

Than why wouldn't Wilt be averaging 75?... both guys said they could do produce these numbers :confusedshrug:

***waits for a homerism justification as to why a ridiculous 50ppg with MJ is possible yet the equally ridiculous notion of Wilt scoring 75ppg isn't possible***


Jordan played across 3 eras - the 80's, 90's and early 00's. We can make conclusions based on his scoring ability. Wilt dominated in a weak era, and his Playoff FG% is a pathetically low 52% vs Jordan's 50%~. Wilt = Loser bum.

[CavaliersFTW]

Being "GOAT" extends beyond what you do on a basketball court...and nobody has influenced the sport of basketball greater than Michael Jordan, in terms of popularity and growth, both here at home and worldwide....there was a time when Jordan was considered bigger than basketball itself.

People see what they wanna see in a player and ignore what they don't want to see in another. You really wanna suggest MJ "changed basketball" and transcended it more than Wilt Chamberlain!? More than Magic and Bird? Come on... all of those guys literally saved the league - it's just double-standard bias acting up again to suggest one is superior to the other. People see what they wanna see and ignore the rest.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253995

[-23-]

People see what they wanna see in a player and ignore what they don't want to see in another. You really wanna suggest MJ "changed basketball" and transcended it more than Wilt Chamberlain!? More than Magic and Bird? Come on... all of those guys literally saved the league - it's just double-standard bias acting up again to suggest one is superior to the other. People see what they wanna see and ignore the rest.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253995



Uhh bullshit. You know the only time a basketball game has ever beat the world series was the 1998 finals? No basketball game since, or before has had as many viewers. Michael Jordan made the sport GLOBAL.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Being "GOAT" extends beyond what you do on a basketball court...and nobody has influenced the sport of basketball greater than Michael Jordan, in terms of popularity and growth, both here at home and worldwide....there was a time when Jordan was considered bigger than basketball itself.
A number of players before MJ took it to the "next level". Magic especially.
Then MJ took it to the next level. Lets not pretend MJ invented basketball.

[CavaliersFTW]

wilt isnt the goat... im sorry. if you honestly believe he would even get close to a 50 point season if he started playing in the 80s or even 70s then you are beyond crazy.

he was a great player, but there is a reason why players today dont put up stats like that. the competition is way greater.


MJ is goat and probly always will be. if he isnt, then i hope i'm alive to watch a player that ends up better than him.

:applause: pure homerism. Note you did not even acknowledge that I said Wilt's claim was equally ridiculous to MJ's. Note that you went ahead and attacked Wilt yet rationalized why MJ could do a stupid task but Wilt couldn't - which was exactly what I said you would do :oldlol: . I don't even rank #1's I recognize the group of greatests and all their strengths and I leave it at that.

You = a classic homer.

[LBJMVP]

:applause: pure homerism. Note you did not even acknowledge that I said Wilt's claim was equally ridiculous to MJ's. Note that you went ahead and attacked Wilt yet rationalized why MJ could do a stupid task but Wilt couldn't - which was exactly what I said you would do :oldlol: . I don't even rank #1's I recognize the group of greatests and all their strengths and I leave it at that.

You = a classic homer.


the hell are you talking about?
MJ isnt averaging 50 points a game either.

[CavaliersFTW]

Uhh bullshit. You know the only time a basketball game has ever beat the world series was the 1998 finals? No basketball game since, or before has had as many viewers. Michael Jordan made the sport GLOBAL.

:sleeping

[Kews1]

Its Michael Jordan at the moment but its not as clear cut as it seems its very very debatable there are a few of players who at least have a case to be considered the GOAT. It also depends what you define as GOAT because i dont think Michael Jordan is the most skilled player of all time i just think he used what he had to win.

[CavaliersFTW]

the hell are you talking about?
MJ isnt averaging 50 points a game either.
:oldlol: My bad you replied to my response that was to somebody else so I thought you were them.

The guy claimed MJ would score 50 a game (which is something MJ said he would do)... I predicted that poster would reply and attempt to beat down Wilt's similar claim after retiring to be able to score 75 in the modern league. And that poster would rationalize MJ's 50 despite both, obviously being ridiculous.

You didn't try to rationalize the 50 but you did beat down Wilt... still fan bias - I think it's selfish for people to try to determine "Greatests" it literally boils down to nothing but one's personal opinion and the pressure to make some one else cave in and believe what you believe. Even suggesting that there is not a clear-cut GOAT as I do causes massive argumentative backlash. :confusedshrug:

Being a fan of 1 player is great. But for me personally, as I look back at NBA history from a broad perspective, I've learned it's not fair to call one NBA legend greater than the other. Most people who pick their GOAT don't dedicate the same amount of time and commitment to learn about the other GOAT candidates, and what they do learn about the "competition" is usually cherry picked so as to favor the guy they like the best. Like I said people will see what they wanna see and ignore the rest.

[zizozain]

1- Kareem
2- Magic
3- MJ

[jlauber]

IMHO, the top-4 are Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt...and in any order.

[SpecialQue]

Right here.

I have Kareem, Russell, and Magic over him.

[Jotaro Durant]

kareem
magic
mj
wilt
bird

top 5

[bwink23]

Right here.

I have Kareem, Russell, and Magic over him.


Magic calls Jordan the GOAT himself....:rolleyes:

Russell is the greatest winner, but not on Jordan's level as a player.

Kareem is the only one who really can stand up...but he didn't have the impact that Jordan had on the game. Their have been so many players in Kareem's era that say MJ is the best, there is no way you can give it to Kareem.

[The Iron Fist]

Magic calls Jordan the GOAT himself....:rolleyes:

Russell is the greatest winner, but not on Jordan's level as a player.

Kareem is the only one who really can stand up...but he didn't have the impact that Jordan had on the game. Their have been so many players in Kareem's era that say MJ is the best, there is no way you can give it to Kareem.
Kareem impacted his team immediately and turned them into champions by year two. In 7 seasons he was MVP 4 times. That is impact and more of it than Jordan.

[brwnman]

I think you have to deem someone as "the greatest" based on the generation they played in. It's very hard to say what Wilt would've done now, we've all heard the stories and the myths. Jordan is easier for some people because they've seen him play, and see what the game is today. Wilt/Russell and some of the past players, I've heard on Ish that they'd be anywhere from a bench warming scrub no better than Scalabraine to the best center in the league even when Shaq was playing. Truth is, none of us saw them play, just clips and stats. Hard to judge a player based solely upon those. That is why you have to break up GOAT by generations rather than as a whole...

[SpecialQue]

Being "GOAT" extends beyond what you do on a basketball court...and nobody has influenced the sport of basketball greater than Michael Jordan, in terms of popularity and growth, both here at home and worldwide....there was a time when Jordan was considered bigger than basketball itself.

If you want to go that route, then Mikan is the GOAT. Professional basketball AS A SPORT was on the verge of collapsing until Mikan came along. No Mikan and the NBL doesn't attract fans. If the NBL teams, including Mikan's Lakers, don't defect and join the BAA, then the NBA doesn't exist because there aren't any fan dollars to support it. Also, "big men" were seen as clumsy freaks until Mikan came along and proved that they could have a degree of grace in their games.

So if you want to say influencing the sport of basketball makes someone the GOAT, then the guy responsible for the NBA existing in the first place is the GOAT.

[SpecialQue]

Also:


Magic calls Jordan the GOAT himself....:rolleyes:

Russell is the greatest winner, but not on Jordan's level as a player.

Kareem is the only one who really can stand up...but he didn't have the impact that Jordan had on the game. Their have been so many players in Kareem's era that say MJ is the best, there is no way you can give it to Kareem.

What the fvck does that have to do with anything?

[bwink23]

If you want to go that route, then Mikan is the GOAT. Professional basketball AS A SPORT was on the verge of collapsing until Mikan came along. No Mikan and the NBL doesn't attract fans. If the NBL teams, including Mikan's Lakers, don't defect and join the BAA, then the NBA doesn't exist because there aren't any fan dollars to support it. Also, "big men" were seen as clumsy freaks until Mikan came along and proved that they could have a degree of grace in their games.

So if you want to say influencing the sport of basketball makes someone the GOAT, then the guy responsible for the NBA existing in the first place is the GOAT.


Comparing Mikan's influence to Jordan's???

i'm not even gonna entertain that level of stupidity. :hammerhead:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Comparing Mikan's influence to Jordan's???

i'm not even gonna entertain that level of stupidity. :hammerhead:

then you are full of fail.
Basketball was nothing until Mikan made it popular.
You need to hit the history books.

[bwink23]

then you are full of fail.
Basketball was nothing until Mikan made it popular.
You need to hit the history books.


:oldlol:

Kids...

[bwink23]

then you are full of fail.
Basketball was nothing until Mikan made it popular.
You need to hit the history books.


You know all that expansion you kids refer to during the Jordan era?? That's due to the league exploding with growth and popularity with Jordan as the face of the game....Overseas expansion and global interest cuz of Michael Jordan. Who in Africa knew who George Mikan was?? Who was voted the Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century....and rivals Muhammad Ali in recognition world wide....LOL


Mikan :hammerhead:

[veilside23]

6 finals 6 rings as the number 1 option need i say more ???

[SpecialQue]

You know all that expansion you kids refer to during the Jordan era?? That's due to the league exploding with growth and popularity with Jordan as the face of the game....Overseas expansion and global interest cuz of Michael Jordan. Who in Africa knew who George Mikan was?? Who was voted the Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century....and rivals Muhammad Ali in recognition world wide....LOL


Mikan :hammerhead:

Who in the United States gave a flying fvck about a professional basketball league before Mikan? NO ONE. They just wanted to see the Rens or the Globetrotters beat some random-ass local team. No Mikan = NO NBA.

Deal with the facts, son.

[game385]

Only a handful of people too young to have seen him play in his prime.

[Joshumitsu]

I think he's the best player we've seen.

However, people mistake that as being able to dominate/win...which MJ was great at but which wasn't only exclusive to him.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

You know all that expansion you kids refer to during the Jordan era?? That's due to the league exploding with growth and popularity with Jordan as the face of the game....Overseas expansion and global interest cuz of Michael Jordan. Who in Africa knew who George Mikan was?? Who was voted the Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century....and rivals Muhammad Ali in recognition world wide....LOL


Mikan :hammerhead:

gosh, MJ must have really influenced the sport, even before he was born, because there were expansions prior to MJ. Oh, and Euro basketball began long before MJ. I'm guessing 1972 was a little before your time.

[bwink23]

gosh, MJ must have really influenced the sport, even before he was born, because there were expansions prior to MJ. Oh, and Euro basketball began long before MJ. I'm guessing 1972 was a little before your time.

Jordan's fame and influence on the sport is greater than anything you've ever seen, OBVIOUSLY...:rolleyes:

[HEAT111]

Bill Russel is the Kronos of the old NBA and Micheal Jordan is like Zeus of this generation NBA.

[SpecialQue]

Jordan's fame and influence on the sport is greater than anything you've ever seen, OBVIOUSLY...:rolleyes:

Holy shit, I just realized that you're retarded.

Sorry about that, I didn't know.

[bwink23]

gosh, MJ must have really influenced the sport, even before he was born, because there were expansions prior to MJ. Oh, and Euro basketball began long before MJ. I'm guessing 1972 was a little before your time.


The NBA expanded 6 teams from 1988 (Jordan's fame exploding), to 1995...


Show me that level of growth from any other player on the GOAT list. Magic Johnson once said every player in the league today should be paying Jordan a stipend for the amount of money their getting.....:lol

[Jotaro Durant]

Holy shit, I just realized that you're retarded.

Sorry about that, I didn't know.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
jordan cumguzzlers getting owned in here:applause:

[The Iron Fist]

The NBA expanded 6 teams from 1988 (Jordan's fame exploding), to 1995...


Show me that level of growth from any other player on the GOAT list. Magic Johnson once said every player in the league today should be paying Jordan a stipend for the amount of money their getting.....:lolWhen Bill Russell entered the league, there was only 8 teams. When he left, there was 14.

What is 14-6?

When Kareem entered the league, 14 teams played. When he retired, there were 25.

What is 25-14?

I know both are more than 6

[bwink23]

When Bill Russell entered the league, there was only 8 teams. When he left, there was 14.

What is 14-6?

When Kareem entered the league, 14 teams played. When he retired, there were 25.

What is 25-14?

I know both are more than 6


Kareem retired in 1988, during the Jordan explosion....:facepalm You gonna give old-ass Kareem credit for the expansion teams in 1988?? :roll:

DESPERATION

Jordan's image directly influenced 6 expansion teams in 7 years....

Jordan = 6 in 7 years....what's that to Kareem's ?? LOL...the league was going bankrupt before Magic and Bird breathed life back into the NBA....you call that INFLUENCE?? :hammerhead:

[jlauber]

When Bill Russell entered the league, there was only 8 teams. When he left, there was 14.

What is 14-6?

When Kareem entered the league, 14 teams played. When he retired, there were 25.

What is 25-14?

I know both are more than 6

When Chamberlain came into the NBA there were 8 teams. In his last season, there were 17, and the ABA which began in the Wilt-era, in 67-68, had another 10.

[StateOfMind12]

I'm a Bulls fan and I do think MJ is the GOAT but I don't think he is far away better than everyone else like most people who are close minded about MJ are.

I think Russell and KAJ have a great case as the greatest player of all-time. Those are the only two that have a case as GOAT though, not Magic, not Bird, not Wilt, and so on.

[zay_24]

MJ is a once in a generation player and helped shape basketball to what it is today. With that being said, Kobe is the best player of alltime.

[jlauber]

I'm a Bulls fan and I do think MJ is the GOAT but I don't think he is far away better than everyone else like most people who are close minded about MJ are.

I think Russell and KAJ have a great case as the greatest player of all-time. Those are the only two that have a case as GOAT though, not Magic, not Bird, not Wilt, and so on.

You obviously did not see Chamberlain dominating his peers like no other player in NBA history.

[Mr. Jabbar]

KAJ has a serious case.

[Mr. Jabbar]

MJ is a once in a generation player and helped shape basketball to what it is today. With that being said, Kobe is the best player of alltime.

best poster on ish.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem retired in 1988, during the Jordan explosion....:facepalm You gonna give old-ass Kareem credit for the expansion teams in 1988?? :roll:

DESPERATION

Jordan's image directly influenced 6 expansion teams in 7 years....

Jordan = 6 in 7 years....what's that to Kareem's ?? LOL...the league was going bankrupt before Magic and Bird breathed life back into the NBA....you call that INFLUENCE?? :hammerhead:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

League was 8 teams when Wilt joins... League was 17 teams when Wilt leaves.

League was 23 teams when MJ joins... League was 29 teams when MJ leaves.

Wilt expanded the league by 2.15 fold

Jordan only expanded it by 1.26 fold

2.15 > 1.26

Wilt had greater influence on league success and expansion, and this is by your own stupid ass logic. Way to back yourself into a corner dumbass :hammerhead:

[jlauber]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

League was 8 teams when Wilt joins... League was 17 teams when Wilt leaves.

League was 23 teams when MJ joins... League was 29 teams when MJ leaves.

Wilt expanded the league by 2.15 fold

Jordan only expanded it by 1.26 fold

2.15 > 1.26

Wilt had greater influence on league success and expansion, and this is by your own stupid ass logic. Way to back yourself into a corner dumbass :hammerhead:


Don't forget the ABA, which began in 67-68, and which had 10 teams in Wilt's last season, and would add six teams to the NBA shortly after Wilt retired.

[bwink23]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

League was 8 teams when Wilt joins... League was 17 teams when Wilt leaves.

League was 23 teams when MJ joins... League was 29 teams when MJ leaves.

Wilt expanded the league by 2.15 fold

Jordan only expanded it by 1.26 fold



.
2.15 > 1.26

Wilt had greater influence on league success and expansion, and this is by your own stupid ass logic. Way to back yourself into a corner dumbass :hammerhead:


What corner??? Jordan's influence on the league, pay salary, and GLOBAL influence dwarfs anything Wilt did by MILES...

:hammerhead: ...and i mean MILES

[bwink23]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

League was 8 teams when Wilt joins... League was 17 teams when Wilt leaves.

League was 23 teams when MJ joins... League was 29 teams when MJ leaves.

Wilt expanded the league by 2.15 fold

Jordan only expanded it by 1.26 fold

2.15 > 1.26

Wilt had greater influence on league success and expansion, and this is by your own stupid ass logic. Way to back yourself into a corner dumbass :hammerhead:



http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1998/06/22/244166/index.htm

http://www.onemanfastbreak.net/2009/09/09/the-michael-jordan-effect/

http://www.grad.illinois.edu/content/motivating-factors-behind-globalization-basketball

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/top100s.htm

[TheBigVeto]

It's between him, Kareem or Bill Russell.

[97 bulls]

What corner??? Jordan's influence on the league, pay salary, and GLOBAL influence dwarfs anything Wilt did by MILES...

:hammerhead: ...and i mean MILES
Jordan has developed a cult following. Wilt wasn't even regarded as the best player in the league. He even said noone cheers for goliath.

[lebeast666]

<----- goat in the making

[wagexslave]

There is no such thing as "greatest of all time". It's just people's opinions.

[KingBeasley08]

Yea couple people here and there. Most sane people would agree that Jordan is the clear GOAT. Michael "The God" Jordan :bowdown:

[jlauber]

Jordan has developed a cult following. Wilt wasn't even regarded as the best player in the league. He even said noone cheers for goliath.

In their ten seasons in the league together, Wilt and Russell each won four MVPs. And Russell beating Wilt in the '62 season was a complete disgrace.

[comerb]

All the other potential candidates were flawed.

Bird was a poor man defender (although an good team defender).

Magic was a terrible defender.

Russell was limited on offense; plus his team was massively stacked in his decade. (I do think Russell is the goat team leader/player)

KAJ wasn't even the best player on his team for the majority of his rings (2/6 fMVPs)

Once Jordan hit his peak, he absolutely destroyed the league. He left absolutely no success for his peers to latch onto.
-6/6 Final wins
-6/6 Finals MVP
-record for the most season wins.
-Perennial scoring champion
-perennial 1st-team defensive player
-a rare guard to have won Defensive MVP.

Hell, he even dominated all-star games and dunk contests.

Any perceived weakness in his game, he fixed. He not only fixed it, he'd make a strength out of it. In all the years I've followed the NBA, nobody was as driven to be perfect as Jordan was.

[97 bulls]

There is no such thing as "greatest of all time". It's just people's opinions.
Your correct. But most opinions are that jordan is the greatest. And the fact is that jordan is at the top or top two or three in every facet of how we rank basketball players

[97 bulls]

All the other potential candidates were flawed.

Bird was a poor man defender (although an good team defender).

Magic was a terrible defender.

Russell was limited on offense; plus his team was massively stacked in his decade. (I do think Russell is the goat team leader/player)

KAJ wasn't even the best player on his team for the majority of his rings (2/6 fMVPs)

Once Jordan hit his peak, he absolutely destroyed the league. He left absolutely no success for his peers to latch onto.
-6/6 Final wins
-6/6 Finals MVP
-record for the most season wins.
-Perennial scoring champion
-perennial 1st-team defensive player
-a rare guard to have won Defensive MVP.

Hell, he even dominated all-star games and dunk contests.

Any perceived weakness in his game, he fixed. He not only fixed it, he'd make a strength out of it. In all the years I've followed the NBA, nobody was as driven to be perfect as Jordan was.
I don't even understand why people say jordan wasn't a team player. He became a more than willing passer when he had sufficient talent

[97 bulls]

In their ten seasons in the league together, Wilt and Russell each won four MVPs. And Russell beating Wilt in the '62 season was a complete disgrace.
Wasn't russell voted greatest player ever in the eraly 80s? That would include wilt.

[jlauber]

Wasn't russell voted greatest player ever in the eraly 80s? That would include wilt.

Very true...although I have long maintained there was an "anti-Wilt" agenda amongst the media (even though Wilt was widely regarded in the media as the much more personable between the two.)

In any case, the MVP voting, AT THE TIME, was a virtual standoff. And, once again, no one will ever convince me that Russell deserved the MVP over Chamberlain in '62.

And not only that, there was also "anti-Wilt" voting in several other seasons, as well. For instance, in Wilt's 62-63 season, in which he LED the NBA in 15 of the total of 22 statistical categories, he finished SEVENTH in the MVP balloting, and behind even Red Kerr. Granted, Wilt's TEAM only went 31-49, BUT, how does anyone explain Terry Dischinger, who played on a 25-55 team, getting more first place votes than Wilt?

And, I could go on for an hour in Wilt's 68-69 season, in a year in which he was nowhere to be found in the MVP voting, even finishing behind Russell, despite playing on a team that had a better W-L record, and on a team that beat Russell's 4-2 in the regular season, and in the process, Wilt was easily outplaying Russell in their H2H's.

Even in his 63-64 season, it was a mystery how Oscar won it, with a far better roster, than Wilt had.

[97 bulls]

Very true...although I have long maintained there was an "anti-Wilt" agenda amongst the media (even though Wilt was widely regarded in the media as the much more personable between the two.)

In any case, the MVP voting, AT THE TIME, was a virtual standoff. And, once again, no one will ever convince me that Russell deserved the MVP over Chamberlain in '62.

And not only that, there was also "anti-Wilt" voting in several other seasons, as well. For instance, in Wilt's 62-63 season, in which he LED the NBA in 15 of the total of 22 statistical categories, he finished SEVENTH in the MVP balloting, and behind even Red Kerr. Granted, Wilt's TEAM only went 31-49, BUT, how does anyone explain Terry Dischinger, who played on a 25-55 team, getting more first place votes than Wilt?

And, I could go on for an hour in Wilt's 68-69 season, in a year in which he was nowhere to be found in the MVP voting, even finishing behind Russell, despite playing on a team that had a better W-L record, and on a team that beat Russell's 4-2 in the regular season, and in the process, Wilt was easily outplaying Russell in their H2H's.

Even in his 63-64 season, it was a mystery how Oscar won it, with a far better roster, than Wilt had.
Then how can you say wilt had more impact than jordan? It sounds to me like you feel wilt was blackballed

[Dizzle-2k7]

I think Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Russell, and Bird are all equally deserving of the "greatest" recognition. I think whichever player is greater is determined strictly by how much homerism or fanbias the person has that is attempting to explain why player A or B is better than C or D.

Personally I drift towards Wilt or Kareem before I drift towards MJ or Russell, and after them I'd drift to Magic and Bird. I kind of find it cheesy to call one person the "greatest" - the entire criteria behind greatness is loosely defined and loaded with double-standards - ultimately those 5 guys contributed and accomplished more than anyone else I can think of.

i agree but duncan deserves to be on any discussion that bird is. maybe shaq too.

[WeGetRing2012]

I didn't get to see Jordan play because I was young. But I know he is one of the greatest but it is hard for me to really understand why. They greatest players that I have seen are Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan.

[Simple Jack]

If we are considering JUST NBA, and not all levels of basketball, what case does Kareem have over Michael? Not that I disagree, I just want to hear those who believe so argue it.

[Simple Jack]

Wasn't russell voted greatest player ever in the eraly 80s? That would include wilt.

I think it was Blaze who pointed out that Havlicek was voted the greatest Celtic of all-time after he retired. Not sure if that had to do with racism, or recency, or what, but it's interesting to considering nevertheless.

[coin24]

Jordan:bowdown:

How are people arguing for Wilt and Russell?? You've probably never even seen highlites of them play:facepalm :facepalm

I feel sorry for people that didnt get to watch Jordan play. Just amazing..
Go download some games/highlites at least for those that have no idea.

[Bucket_Nakedz]

jordan is the standard imo. i wasn't there to see bird, magic, wilt, russell or kareem in their prime, so i won't speculate.

jordan is dat dude for me because i saw 4 of his 6 championships live, so im comfortable with my decision.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Brian Scalabrine

[christian1923]

Who was known as the GOAT before jordan ever got drafted?

[97 bulls]

If we are considering JUST NBA, and not all levels of basketball, what case does Kareem have over Michael? Not that I disagree, I just want to hear those who believe so argue it.
Even if were comparing all levels, jordan has jabaar trumped cuz jordan has 2 olympic gold medals. And jabaar has none. So jordan owns the pros and olympics, while jbaar has college and high school.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OcGHUvBiN_8/T0JOsjoMTaI/AAAAAAAAC-4/BybptadsPg8/s400/lin.jpg

[La Frescobaldi]

Chamberlain is the best I've ever seen.

{Now as I say that, I only saw Russell in his last 3 or 4 seasons, when he was well past his athletic glory... right there on the Celtics Havlicek & Sam Jones were better than him by '68. I take nothing away from him, but I can't really talk about what I didn't see.}

Chamberlain and Jordan are so far above everyone else it's like looking at the Milky Way from the meteor crater in Arizona

[gxL]

it baffles me that wilt is even in contention for goat. the guy was a statpadder, and barely won anything. players will tell you wilt was a horrible teammate

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Jordan is a perfect basketball player. More God than man. However, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest basketball player of all time in my opinion.

[La Frescobaldi]

it baffles me that wilt is even in contention for goat. the guy was a statpadder, and barely won anything. players will tell you wilt was a horrible teammate

obviously you never saw him, nor do you know anything about him, nor his era.

have a great day tho

[CavaliersFTW]

it baffles me that wilt is even in contention for goat. the guy was a statpadder, and barely won anything. players will tell you wilt was a horrible teammate

:oldlol:

If your baffled... than make a concerted effort to figure out why people might be holding him in such high-esteem. Obviously it isn't for no reason. Obviously the people who think of him so highly also know that he won 2 rings as opposed to the typical GOAT candidates who won ~5 or more. He had alternative qualities that none of the other candidates have put him in that spot. Where he falls in the ranking depends a lot on how people perceive those qualities (or whether they are even aware of them) but his name always deserves to be in the discussion.

And come on man... "players will tell you Wilt was a horrible teammate" :wtf: :facepalm

Name them.

[LockoutOver11]

Interesting....

http://www.inc.com/uploaded_files/image/7-tips-for-using-personlity-tests-to-hire-pop_7870.jpg
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rorschach3-1.jpg
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rorschach5.jpg

...so, which one of these inkblots is greatest?

is that a bat.. or weasel... bat weasel... either that or it a ***** with teeth.


MJ is basketball. At least in my era and forward... didnt get to see the greats before him.

[andgar923]

MJ is the GOAT PERIOD... end of discussion.

F*ckin idiots trying to argue otherwise.

[CavaliersFTW]

is that a bat.. or weasel... bat weasel... either that or it a ***** with teeth.


MJ is basketball. At least in my era and forward... didnt get to see the greats before him.

:wtf:

Someone on IH understands they shouldn't pass judgement on players they didn't watch/don't know much about!?... I just got blind sided by actual intelligence...
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Smartest thing I've heard all day :cheers:

[LockoutOver11]

:wtf:

Someone who admits they can't pass fair judgement on players they didn't watch/don't know much about!?... :applause: :cheers:

Smartest thing I've heard all day

Its from a movie called Analyze That. Robert De Niro says it.

I know about alot of players... but there is a different thing to watch and be in the moment and see the impact yourself, for the league for the fans... I can see all the stats and a few highlight plays... but it wont compare to what I myself experienced the player do on the court. It easier to argue players you watch.

I will never understand people who love players or music artists before their time.... half the appreciation or fan..ism has to be the moments itself. like 15 year olds who just discover the Beatles and its their life... or people who see wilt and oscar stats and are their favorite player in the world. smh

[La Frescobaldi]

:oldlol:

If your baffled... than make a concerted effort to figure out why people might be holding him in such high-esteem. Obviously it isn't for no reason. Obviously the people who think of him so highly also know that he won 2 rings as opposed to the typical GOAT candidates who won ~5 or more. He had alternative qualities that none of the other candidates have put him in that spot. Where he falls in the ranking depends a lot on how people perceive those qualities (or whether they are even aware of them) but his name always deserves to be in the discussion.

And come on man... "players will tell you Wilt was a horrible teammate" :wtf: :facepalm

Name them.
Wali Jones?
http://www.nba.com/sixers/features/wali_jones_interview_2011_08_01.html

S.C: You played with some of the greatest players in NBA history and have been around the game for a long time. Is Wilt the best player of all time?

WJ: In history. In the history of basketball, how could you question that? As an individual, he’s the greatest basketball player ever to put on sneaks.
*******************
Bill Russell?
"Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play."

-- Bill Russell, Great Moments in Pro Basketball, (by Sam Goldaper) p.24

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nba/daily/oct99/13/tk13.htm

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...ain/index.html

"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

**************************
Johnny Red Kerr (yeah, the Bulls announcer)

Former NBA center and Chicago Bull coach Johnny "Red" Kerr, who played part of one season in Philadelphia with Wilt and against him for six-plus years, said, "He was the NBA. He was the guy on the top. Wilt was the guy you talked about--he and Bill Russell. He was the most dominating center--the best center to ever play in the NBA." [Source: Giant Towered Over the Rest, The Los Angeles Times; Oct 13, 1999; Larry Stewart]

********************

How about pure intimidation of one of the most intimidating guys to ever play in the NBA? Elvin Hayes:
"Some things about Wilt, you never forgot," Hayes said. "He was such an awesome physical specimen. To go up under Wilt Chamberlain, to be down there and look up at him when he's towering up over you waiting to
dunk, was a terrifying picture. To see him poised up there, knowing he was about to sweep down with that big jam . . . that must be the most frightening sight in sports. The ball goes shooting through the net and
you better have your body covered up because he could really hurt someone. I was scared. Everyone was scared when he got that look in his eye, that don't-try-to-stop-this look that he got when he really wanted it. . . .

*********************************
former Celtics guard K.C. Jones remembered his casual run-in with Wilt.

"He stopped me dead in my tracks with his arm, hugged me and lifted me off the floor with my feet dangling," Jones said. "It scared the hell out of me. When I went to the free-throw line, my legs were still shaking. Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game. [Source: Goliath's Wonderful Life, Hoop Magazine; May 1999; Chris Ekstrand]

******************************

All these quotes are post Jordan, by the way.........
*******************************************
Al Attles & Tom Meschery on a recent 100 documentary talked about how terrific Chamberlain was as a player, a teammate, and a person.... if you think about it, how many teammates would sacrifice like that so a guy could go 100?

**********************************************
Now a lot of guys from Chamberlain's era will say Jordan is the greatest, and who can argue with them? Guys like Bing, Cousy, West....... but you pretty much find those comments coming from guards, with a guard's view point. Oscar is pretty adamant that Jordan is not the greatest, and he's a guy that would also know what he's talking about.

But a lot of guys also say #13 is the greatest:

Walt Frazier - Wilt the Goat; Kareem - Wilt the Goat scorer: Larry Bird - Wilt the Goat; Bob McAdoo - Wilt the Goat; Dan Issel - Wilt the Goat

***********************************************
Wilt or Russell?

Ray Scott, a former coach of the Detroit Pistons who played 11 pro seasons, battled Chamberlain in high school in Philadelphia and in the NBA.

"Wilt," Scott said. "He was more dominating. Wilt Chamberlain dominated his era. He did things in his era that have only been equaled by Michael Jordan."

Dave DeBusschere, who played on two Knicks championship teams and was voted one of the NBA's top 50 players of all time, once was asked the same question.

Wilt or Russell?

"Wilt," DeBusschere said. "He was more dominating."

******************************************

People who saw him are pretty much universal on the subject.

And people who didn't see him... they don't know what is happening with that.

[La Frescobaldi]

Its from a movie called Analyze That. Robert De Niro says it.

I know about alot of players... but there is a different thing to watch and be in the moment and see the impact yourself, for the league for the fans... I can see all the stats and a few highlight plays... but it wont compare to what I myself experienced the player do on the court. It easier to argue players you watch.

I will never understand people who love players or music artists before their time.... half the appreciation or fan..ism has to be the moments itself. like 15 year olds who just discover the Beatles and its their life... or people who see wilt and oscar stats and are their favorite player in the world. smh

yeah, I get that, to a point. Although I like the ancient music too sometimes, like Beethoven and Bach.....

You know one of the greatest plays I ever saw.... Chamberlain was playing on the Sixers and it was the Pistons with Dave Bing for sure, Happy Hairston, Dave DeBusschere, I don't remember who all, this is real long time ago....

Now Wilt had really excellent box-out skills. Superb, when he could be bothered... but generally he would just find position and get the rebound. This was partly - largely - due to his enormous hands. But he had an incredible eye for angles because wherever they would shoot from, he was uncanny at getting to the exact spot where a missed shot was going to fall.

So Dave DeBusschere went up for the rebound, and got both hands on that ball. DD was seriously strong, one of the few guys that could move a big center with one arm. But Chamberlain palmed that ball, and DeBusschere could not rip it out of his hands. And Dave Bing was standing there with his mouth just wide, staring. So Wilt lifted that ball AND DeBusschere right off the ground - palming that ball. And he was going to throw a baseball pass whether DeBusschere held on or not. Well DeBusschere let go and the ball went off down the court, but that's something you just don't forget.

Another time I saw him block a shot on old Jack Marin on the Bullets. Well Marin was real fast and got a lot of fast break lay-ups. But this time Chamberlain was right behind him and when the ball went up, he blocked that layup from behind.

He leaped behind Marin, bounced the ball off the backboard, caught the ball off the backboard, spun in the air, and made the outlet pass with two hands to Billy Cunningham. All of that above the rim.

Just the things that Chamberlain could do. I've never seen anyone able to just take over like he did.

[poido123]

Chamberlain is the best I've ever seen.

{Now as I say that, I only saw Russell in his last 3 or 4 seasons, when he was well past his athletic glory... right there on the Celtics Havlicek & Sam Jones were better than him by '68. I take nothing away from him, but I can't really talk about what I didn't see.}

Chamberlain and Jordan are so far above everyone else it's like looking at the Milky Way from the meteor crater in Arizona

I cant disagree with you. wasnt around when wilt was playing, looking at his statistical achievements, they are off the charts! Jordan was my idol growing up, but I wont discard someone i never watched before from GOAT discussions. Particularly when you consider how dominant Wilt was size and stats wise.

[Simple Jack]

I never actually considered the reason that such a large number of people, when watching Wilt footage, or rather any footage from that decade, think the game looks so elementary and unrefined. Any theories as to why?

I don't think the hate is what triggers them to feel that the players back then were a lot worse than now; I think it's the other way around actually. Either way, it's an issue I don't think anyone has ever been successful in explaining.

[bdreason]

I have MJ and Kareem as 1a and 1b. I know at least one poster on this forum that has Wilt as the GOAT.

[bdreason]

If we are considering JUST NBA, and not all levels of basketball, what case does Kareem have over Michael? Not that I disagree, I just want to hear those who believe so argue it.


Kareem played a more important position on the court. I know todays NBA is all about super-fast wing players... but Basketball used to be a BIG MAN's game... until Stern started changing all the rules to benefit perimeter players.

[Doranku]

Kareem played a more important position on the court. I know todays NBA is all about super-fast wing players... but Basketball used to be a BIG MAN's game... until Stern started changing all the rules to benefit perimeter players.

Not to mention Kareem's longevity FAR exceeds Jordan, who took two breaks in his career.

[poido123]

I have MJ and Kareem as 1a and 1b. I know at least one poster on this forum that has Wilt as the GOAT.

Why not crown Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, and Jordan as equal GOAT's? All have a good case, and all deserve the title.

[bdreason]

I never actually considered the reason that such a large number of people, when watching Wilt footage, or rather any footage from that decade, think the game looks so elementary and unrefined. Any theories as to why?




Take every black player out of the NBA except for Dwight Howard, and try to imagine what the games would look like.

[bdreason]

Why not crown Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, and Jordan as equal GOAT's? All have a good case, and all deserve the title.


I have no problem with any of those players being called GOAT. But if someone asks me to rank them, I'm not going to give a PC answer, I'll just say what I think.

[Simple Jack]

Kareems longevity was great, but it still doesn't give him the same resume as Michael. Michael is simply the best combination of individual and team achievements.

[La Frescobaldi]

Why not crown Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, and Jordan as equal GOAT's? All have a good case, and all deserve the title.

I really do think Chamberlain & Jordan were that far above everyone else.

But this is very valid view point.

It's absurd to think that Michael Jordan can post up Kareem, play defense on Artis Gilmore, and outrebound Moses Malone - all of which I'm positive Chamberlain could do (and did do, to Kareem & A-Train) - and all of which I'm positive Jordan could never do. He was never strong enough to out-rebound Sir Charles, nor dumb enough to try.

It's equally absurd to say Chamberlain could drive on Bruce Bowen, or spin like MJ, or play perimeter defense on guys like John Havlicek or Kiki or Reggie Miller - all of which I'm positive His Airness could do. Chamberlain was never quick enough to stay on Earl Monroe, nor dumb enough to try.

It's better in my opinion to aim at an All-Time team than to say 1 guy is better than anybody else - the positions are too different, physically, skillfully, mentally to say somebody could play them all.

[La Frescobaldi]

Take every black player out of the NBA except for Dwight Howard, and try to imagine what the games would look like.

pure ignorance.

Name the Celtics starting 5 in the 60s. Name the Sixers starting 5.

[La Frescobaldi]

I never actually considered the reason that such a large number of people, when watching Wilt footage, or rather any footage from that decade, think the game looks so elementary and unrefined. Any theories as to why?

I don't think the hate is what triggers them to feel that the players back then were a lot worse than now; I think it's the other way around actually. Either way, it's an issue I don't think anyone has ever been successful in explaining.
******************
It was elementary and unrefined.

Why do people look at Jimi Hendrix as such a great guitarist? The guy could hardly play more than 1 scale, and that one was bastardized, literally didn't know one note from the next, played entire concerts with his guitar just drastically out of tune. His equipment was worse than primitive, broke down constantly... but the man was a genius, and anyone with an open mind can sense that genius, feel that passion and hear Jimi's heart and soul in just a few minutes. Even if you don't like his style of music at all, you can recognize pure genius.

It was the same in basketball. Guys like Bing on the Pistons or Pearl in Baltimore, they didn't have film to watch until way late in the 60s. They rode a bus to games, didn't even sleep in a motel but on the bus sometimes, and talk about back to backs?

How about back to back to back to back to back to back?

The NBA had skills rules up until the late 70s. Every time you see a guy do a crossover today, he's actually carrying the ball. Every time. The hop step you see everywhere today - that's illegal. In those days, if your hand went even a little bit on the side of the ball, it was a whistle.

If you want to know what Earl Monroe was really like you'd have to go find some old guys in the eastern cities who watched him play in the parks and schoolyards. Believe it Black Jesus had a wicked crossover, break ankles? Man, that guy was most monstrous. Connie Hawkins had every bit of style that Michael Jordan ever threw down on a court.
Connie Hawkins has a story about the first time he met Chamberlain. It was at a schoolyard, and some guy dunked on Wilt. So the next time Chamberlain got the ball, he dunked it so hard, it bounced over the fence.
Don't believe it? To this day Chamberlain's the only guy I ever saw who would dunk so hard the ball would bounce above the backboard. I've never seen anyone else dunk hard enough to get the ball above the rim.

The first few games of every season you would just see whistle after whistle on those guys because they'd been playing in parks and gyms the whole off-season without the NBA skills rules.

*******************************
But the rules are only one reason it looks so much different.

*******************************

In the 60s basketball was a horizontal game. It's not like Bill Russell, Gus Johnson and Willis Reed had no vertical leap, either. The fans demanded total fast break action - lots of it. I've seen the old Philly hall just empty out at half time because the Knicks were playing all half-court ball. The Garden was the same way.
Nobody wanted to see that slow-@ss sh1t, they wanted ACTION for their $2!! And that was still true in the 70s. And that's also why Showtime Lakers was so hugely popular - straight up, it's because they were playing '60s era basketball.

The most exciting thing in all of sports - to me - is fast break basketball. There ain't never been nothing more exhilarating to this day than Sam Jones and John Havlicek sprinting the lines on a Celtic fast break, and Bill Russell, so fast he'd get the rebound, outlet, and get to the other end for another rebound right over the top of Willis Reed and Walt Bellamy. Man that's some serious thrill like Miles Davis or the Allman Brothers

Those guys didn't have training camps or pee-wee leagues, no film. Shoot if a game was on TV, they ran the camera wide open - no film. I saw a guy with CBS set up his camera at the Spectrum and he just wandered off to the concession stand (!!) so we went over and looked through that camera, and it wasn't even pointed at the game, he had it focused on a pretty girl!!

Primitive? They were inventing modern basketball, just like The Beatles & Stones took rock&roll and invented rock music, and Jimi Hendrix & Clapton invented rock guitar.... this is from another thread:
************************************************** *******

These 3 games show the invention of modern basketball

Check out the humongous difference in basketball quality between this.....

*********************************
the second half of g7 the '64 Finals:

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jV7WImytM

lots of doubleteaming on Chamberlain in this second part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uOGY0fftVA

part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzuWJblenO4

part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qgE9iJiTAQ

************************************
And this, the only most-of-a-game clip I know of on the '67 EDF.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJaFNsa-Bqs

************************************
And this, G5 of the '72 Lakers run
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tQobnWfVoc

part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkBQAYwbguk

In a very real way, you can see the development of modern basketball in those 3 games, 8 years apart.


In the first game, there's very little fundamentals, almost no set plays, and a whole lot of running and muscle. In my view, that's mostly because the Warriors were so pathetically bad that they dragged the Celtics along into the gutter with them. Guy Rodgers & Tom Meschery playin their guts out but wow!! but also Nate Thurmond lookin strong at times

In the second game, there's an astronomical improvement in basketball skills by all players, some real defensive strategies, and the triple post or triangle offense is on full display (rudimentary, primitive, primevel even) by the 76ers.

In the '72 game - it's modern basketball without a 3 point line.

I was pretty much wrong on a earlier post where i didn't know of any of Chamberlain's huge games, that 64 game he went 27pts 38 rebs (which tied the rebounding record in a finals game) and then that 72 game everybody knows the 24pts 29 rebs 8 assists and 9 blocks with 5 minutes left.
************************************************** **

So yeah. That's a little of why it was looking that way. They invented the modern game that we all love. And the only significant changes came in '74, when they added steals and blocks as official stats, in '80 when they added the 3, and 2007 when the FBI helped the league understand what illegal refereeing is all about.

They were genius, you see? Like Jimi was, like John & Paul were.

[Nevaeh]

Originally Posted by Simple Jack
I never actually considered the reason that such a large number of people, when watching Wilt footage, or rather any footage from that decade, think the game looks so elementary and unrefined. Any theories as to why?



Take every black player out of the NBA except for Dwight Howard, and try to imagine what the games would look like.

This List was taken from another Thread dealing with Wilt, that lists all of his immediate opponents at the Center position. I took the time to look them up a week ago to see who was White, and who was Black on the list, so we can finally put this dumb sh!t to rest:



Wilts Opponents Through His Career:

*Nate Thurmond (HOF, 50 greatest) Black
*Walt Bellamy (HOF) Black
*Kareem Abdul Jabbar (HOF, 50 greatest) Black
*Tom Boerwinkle White
*Ray Felix Black
*Bill Russell (HOF, 50 greatest) Black
*Walter Dukes Black
*Swede Halbrook White
*Darrell Imhoff White
*Bevo Nordmann White
*Mel Counts White
*Jon Thompson Black
*Joe Strawder Black
*Reggie Harding Black
*Jim Fox White
*Rich Niemen White
*Dick Cunningham White
*Dale Schlueter White
*Dave Newmark White
*Luther Rackley Black
*Otto Moore Black
*Neal Walk White
*Greg Filmore UK
*Dennis Awtry White
*George Johnson Black
*Bob Christian Black
*Tom Black UK
*Sam Lacey Black
*Bob Lanier (HOF) Black
*Elmore Smith Black
*Jim McDaniels Black
*William Smith UK



17-Black
12-White
Even with the 3 UnKnowns on the List, there were still more Black opponents. Maybe the Elders on the Board can tell us who's white or black out of those guys. (couldn't find pictures myself).

The"Short White Guy" meme was cute for a couple of years, but now that sh!t is really becoming tiresome, and really doesn't hold much weight with guys like Nash, Dirk, and Love still beasting like it ain't nothing.

[bdreason]

pure ignorance.

Name the Celtics starting 5 in the 60s. Name the Sixers starting 5.

What's ignorant? He asked why people who watch 60's basketball have a hard time receiving it. My answer is simple; 90% of NBA players today are black, and in the 60's, 90% of the players were white.


The 1960 Championship Celtics roster:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/espndb_1960nbachamp_576.jpg

[Legends66NBA7]

3 UnKnowns on the List, there were still more Black opponents. Maybe the Elders on the Board can tell us who's white or black out of those guys. (couldn't find pictures myself).

I can confirm 2 of them for you, Nev:

Greg Filmore (Black)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fillmgr01.html

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1970-Topps-Original-Color-Negative-Greg-Filmore-Knicks-/00/$(KGrHqN,!ksE2I4LseFQBNyqvTl3uw~~_3.JPG

Tom Black (White) - Could only find his college shot...

http://pictures.historicimages.net/pictures/_2/1405/1404486.jpg

I'm looking out for the last one...

[WockaVodka]

Bill Russell is the greatest player of all-time to me, next would be MJ though.

[CavaliersFTW]

This List was taken from another Thread dealing with Wilt, that lists all of his immediate opponents at the Center position. I took the time to look them up a week ago to see who was White, and who was Black on the list, so we can finally put this dumb sh!t to rest:





17-Black
12-White
Even with the 3 UnKnowns on the List, there were still more Black opponents. Maybe the Elders on the Board can tell us who's white or black out of those guys. (couldn't find pictures myself).

The"Short White Guy" meme was cute for a couple of years, but now that sh!t is really becoming tiresome, and really doesn't hold much weight with guys like Nash, Dirk, and Love still beasting like it ain't nothing.

So is the "small" argument by basing a players size on basketball-reference.com :facepalm

This is a 215lb Bill Russell... This is what Basketball reference describes.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SVLk4WXqarg/T1SAWCZkitI/AAAAAAAADMg/xxpbyPxzLbE/s400/h95.18.1041_edit.jpg

This is a 240lb Bill Russell in his final season. Same size as rookie Dwight Howard, and 5lbs heavier than rookie David Robinson. He's not exactly a scrawny runt.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c_4RBH53VG0/T1RG2KO-uRI/AAAAAAAADL4/7B0_o04w5Do/s800/Bill%25201969%252C%2520230-245lbs.jpg

I've started to track player weights from the 60's through newspapers. His weight gradually increased through the course of his entire career, and this is pretty much true for all the big men in Wilt's era and any other era Wilt's era just never updated list weights. Wilt himself was thin as a rookie.

[Nevaeh]

I can confirm 2 of them for you, Nev:

Greg Filmore (Black)



I'm looking out for the last one...

Cool. Future Rep headed your way...

:cheers:

We doing it for the kids man, we doing it for the KIDS !!! :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

This List was taken from another Thread dealing with Wilt, that lists all of his immediate opponents at the Center position. I took the time to look them up a week ago to see who was White, and who was Black on the list, so we can finally put this dumb sh!t to rest:


17-Black
12-White
Even with the 3 UnKnowns on the List, there were still more Black opponents. Maybe the Elders on the Board can tell us who's white or black out of those guys. (couldn't find pictures myself).

The"Short White Guy" meme was cute for a couple of years, but now that sh!t is really becoming tiresome, and really doesn't hold much weight with guys like Nash, Dirk, and Love still beasting like it ain't nothing.


There seems to be a lot of missing names on that list. I immediately thought of these guys right off the top of my head. Did you take that list from my list of guys over "7 foot" and 230lbs"? It looks exactly like the list I typed up... haha if so there's a lot more guys that are missing. The's guys that will be missing are the one's that are either bulky yet shorter (like Dwight Howard) or longer and thinner like Kevin Durant


Wayne Embry, the human Red Wood, 260lbs: (black)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Ngd4MTumVrg/T1SAXlGdftI/AAAAAAAADMo/ZU_VwH_tIyE/s800/wilt04_lg.jpg

Gene Wiley, part of the early 60's Lakers Twin Towers - great leaper: (black)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QOMAhwvG640/T1SDhGFDeBI/AAAAAAAADMw/194rr0lxHzo/s800/chamberlain%252010.jpg

Leroy Ellis, the other Lakers Twin Tower - incredible athlete, fast and crazy vertical + body control: (black)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PX3bLMY6qjo/T1SDg7WCV-I/AAAAAAAADM0/az_qHILpCcY/s640/leroy_ellis.jpg

[Nevaeh]

Thanks CavaliersFTW. I couldn't remember exactly who had made that list at the time I grabbed it. I just knew that it was time for some Detective work, after seeing "Deuce I Don't Know" lose his mind for a minute with the Wilt Trolling.
:lol

Thanks again.

[OmniStrife]

MJ is GOAT.
don't get mad its just the truth.

[CavaliersFTW]

Thanks CavaliersFTW. I couldn't remember exactly who had made that list at the time I grabbed it. I just knew that it was time for some Detective work, after seeing "Deuce I Don't Know" lose his mind for a minute with the Wilt Trolling.
:lol

Thanks again.

I updated my post above - I made that list read my updated above post to get the info on it :lol

[Legends66NBA7]

I updated my post above - I made that list read my updated above post to get the info on it :lol

Any clue as to what race William Smith is ? :confusedshrug:

I can't seem to find on the net, he's tough one.

But here's his signature:

http://cdn.sportsmemorabilia.com/sports-product-image/william-smith-almost-300-films-tv-signed-4x2-card-16-t1256221-170.jpg

Neat. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Jim Barne's - 6'9 240lbs: (Black)
http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/bio_photos/jim_barnes.jpg

BTW this is Bob Lanier... 6'11 (barefoot) which is the same height as Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan, except... He was 288lbs... not a typo, 288lbs. Black, obviously.
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrb4yupU0P1qcbymco1_500.jpg




Looks like Wilt played a TON of 6'0 white guys didn't he? :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Zelmo Beaty, Dwight Howard's height: (Black)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2I_5GTG_nUE/T1SLQesy18I/AAAAAAAADNA/66nLuKMHnV0/s800/zelmo-beaty-vintage-st-louis-hawks-8x10-photograph2_4b4790b94ae91cebc4f6aa26946294e0_displ ay_image_display_image.jpg

[bdreason]

"I don't understand why people today can't objectively rank and compare players and teams from the 60's"

1960 Championship Celtics
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/espndb_1960nbachamp_576.jpg

!999 Championship Spurs
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/1999team_750.jpg



Who you got?


Obviously by the end of the 60's, the integration of African American's into the league was at a different level, and not surprisingly, the level of play on the court was also elevated. I believe by the mid 60's about half the league was AA.

[Nevaeh]

Zelmo Beaty, Dwight Howard's height: (Black)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2I_5GTG_nUE/T1SLQesy18I/AAAAAAAADNA/66nLuKMHnV0/s800/zelmo-beaty-vintage-st-louis-hawks-8x10-photograph2_4b4790b94ae91cebc4f6aa26946294e0_displ ay_image_display_image.jpg

They palmed the Ball back then? Get Outta Here!!! :oldlol:

[jlauber]

What's ignorant? He asked why people who watch 60's basketball have a hard time receiving it. My answer is simple; 90% of NBA players today are black, and in the 60's, 90% of the players were white.


The 1960 Championship Celtics roster:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/espndb_1960nbachamp_576.jpg

That was three of 11. In 60-61, Boston added Satch Sanders to make it four of 11. Those four would be on the roster thru the 66-67 season. In between, there were other's like Willie Naulls, Wayne Embry, John Thompson, and Woody Sauldsberry.

A couple of other points. One, take a look at Boston's white players in the early 60's. Bob Cousy, Clyde Lovellette, Bill Sharman, Tommy Heinsohn, and John Havlicek. ALL in the HOF.

Secondly, as I posted in another thread, while black players may have had to do more to get to the NBA, no intelligent owner would have denied a good black player from their roster. Why would they? It would have made no sense to try and compete.

My god, the NFL and MLB were already fielding black players. Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947. I agree that some teams, notably the Red Sox and Yankees took their time, but, most figured it out pretty quickly.

If anything, the colleges were probably more to blame (as well as the general economic environment.)

Next, find a photo of the '86 Celtics, and tell me how many white players you find on that roster.

Finally, Psileas pretty much shattered the "competition" argument against Wilt. Chamberlain dominated the good and not-so-good white centers of his era, and he dominated the good and not-so-good black players of his era, including ALL of the great ones. In fact, I would argue that no other center was more dominant, including the post-season, than Wilt was in the mid-60's. I posted Chamberlain's numbers against Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and even Russell in the mid-60's, and he was just crushing those guys. And, as Pslieas pointed out, he was murdering he likes of LeRoy Ellis, Wayne Embry, Walter Dukes, and Zelmo Beaty (along with others), too.

And by the mid-60's, when Chamberlain was winning scoring crowns, and rebounding crowns, and FG% crowns, and even among the leaders in assists, in the SAME season, the NBA was rapidly becoming a black league.

Once again, I know of only Connie Hawkins being "black-balled", and that was for a different reason. The only other player that I can think of that might have had ome kind of a case, would have been Raymond Lewis, who was playing college ball in the 70's.

[CavaliersFTW]

They palmed the Ball back then? Get Outta Here!!! :oldlol:

Big Hands in the 60's!? Must be FAKE!
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-osflaHfAlVo/T1SRl7bkBdI/AAAAAAAADNI/K5gbpDMIbME/s288/big%2520hand%2520embry.jpg

[DJ Leon Smith]

"I don't understand why people today can't objectively rank and compare players and teams from the 60's"

1960 Championship Celtics

!999 Championship Spurs


Who you got?

Led the league in rebounds.
http://live.drjays.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/kevin-love.jpg

Led the league in blocks.
http://utahproathletes.com/assets/basketball/andrew%20bogut%20n.jpg

Those two guys would have no chance in the NBA in the modern era, they could only play in the 1960s.

Oh wait they led the league in rebounds and blocks last season? I stand corrected.

[ThaRegul8r]

Most people who pick their GOAT don't dedicate the same amount of time and commitment to learn about the other GOAT candidates, and what they do learn about the "competition" is usually cherry picked so as to favor the guy they like the best. Like I said people will see what they wanna see and ignore the rest.

:applause:

[ThaRegul8r]

What kind of stupid question is this anyway? Why the hell should anyone care if someone should happen to think Jordan isn't the GOAT? Is he related to you? Do you get some kind of financial reward for every person who thinks Jordan is GOAT? A lifetime supply of Air Jordans? What is it? Why does it matter so much to so many other people to make sure all opinion is uniform? How does it affect your life in any way whatsoever that some guy you never even met who doesn't even know you exist is first in the minds of every single person on the planet?

:confusedshrug:

Alexis de Tocqueville was right on the money:


I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America. ... In America the majority raises formidable barriers around the liberty of opinion; within these barriers an author may write what he pleases, but woe to him if he goes beyond them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Led the league in rebounds.
http://live.drjays.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/kevin-love.jpg

Led the league in blocks.
http://utahproathletes.com/assets/basketball/andrew%20bogut%20n.jpg

Those two guys would have no chance in the NBA in the modern era, they could only play in the 1960s.

Oh wait they led the league in rebounds and blocks last season? I stand corrected.

Finals MVP
http://www.nba.com/media/act_dirk_nowitzki.jpg

Former 2x MVP
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/writers/jack_mccallum/11/13/early.impressions/steve-nash.jpg




B-b-b-b-but white guys from the 60's = weak era?
??? I'm confused!?

[PHILA]

"I don't understand why people today can't objectively rank and compare players and teams from the 60's"

1960 Championship Celtics
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/espndb_1960nbachamp_576.jpg

!999 Championship Spurs
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/1999team_750.jpg



Who you got?


Obviously by the end of the 60's, the integration of African American's into the league was at a different level, and not surprisingly, the level of play on the court was also elevated. I believe by the mid 60's about half the league was AA.


How about the white 1986 Celtics who beat the athletic Atlanta Hawks in the playoffs as well as the Bulls & Jordan back to back years. Not to forget the Sampson/Olajuwon Rockets in the Finals.


http://i.imgur.com/uFlar.jpg

[pauk]

I think he is GOAT, but not an undisputable GOAT.... due to Kareem & Bill Russell....

Russell won 11 championships as THE MAN... he had 5 x MVPs....

...and hypothetically speaking Russell was also at least a 9 x FMVP and 9 x Defensive Player of the Year....

Finals MVP didnt exist until 1969-70 somewhere.......
DPOY didnt exist until 1982-83 somewhere......

He would had most of those trophies to......... and hypothetically speaking he actually DID... because he was the best defensive player in that ERA... and was the FMVP of most of those championship runs....

11 x Championships
5 x MVP
~10 x FMVP
~10 x DPOY

thats alot to work with to try and surpass as a player dont you agree?

[CavaliersFTW]

Obviously racial stereotyping is still active in the hearts and minds of Americans. We've got some guy posting pics of a black team with a few white guys and a white team with a few black guys sayin "who ya got?" :facepalm


I don't give a flippidy **** what color they are I'd rather know what the talent of the stars and supporting cast is, and then team chemistry/coaching etc. Race doesn't determine how good the team will be children :hammerhead:

[La Frescobaldi]

What's ignorant? He asked why people who watch 60's basketball have a hard time receiving it. My answer is simple; 90% of NBA players today are black, and in the 60's, 90% of the players were white.


The 1960 Championship Celtics roster:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/espndb_1960nbachamp_576.jpg

I apologize. I should have asked a more precise question, because 1960 is the last year of the 50s.

I didn't intend for this thread to turn into yet another endless debate about social evolution.

[Psileas]

Does anyone here think that Jordan is NOT the GOAT?

http://www.photosynthesis.com/images-titles/P14-88.jpeg


Now, if you insist, the thread has already given a positive answer. What there seems to exist in very small quantities is the number of people who believe someone else other than Jordan has no case of NOT being the GOAT, whereas there exist plenty of these people for Jordan. Of course, this category of people ("x is the GOAT, and it's very clear") usually functions with blind faith, therefore, you won't read many arguments worthy of remembering for their value.

Here's the list of quotes from people who think that X is the GOAT, bar none:


If magic didn't have HIV it wouldn't even be close

(That's not a definitive answer, though).


kaj is the goat sorry mj cumguzzlers


MJ let's be real


Mj is the Goat. Its that simple.


im sorry guys, but it's michael jordan.


uh.... MJ right now would be averaging 50ppg. Did you see him come back in the Wiz uniform playing AI, Kobe, Vince, and basically schooling the hell out of them (as much as a 40y/o can). Like that play where michael breaks Vince's ankle???

That's objective evidence right there MJ was goat. I give Kobe some cred for dropping 40 or so on MJ but he was 40 man. Let's see Kobe dropping 50 points or something on the NBA when he's 40. MJ had the best fundamentals period.


just like there are people out there who believes in aliens, or other stupid sh1t, yes there are people who think MJ is not the GOAT.


6 finals 6 rings as the number 1 option need i say more ???


Yea couple people here and there. Most sane people would agree that Jordan is the clear GOAT. Michael "The God" Jordan


All the other potential candidates were flawed.

Bird was a poor man defender (although an good team defender).

Magic was a terrible defender.

Russell was limited on offense; plus his team was massively stacked in his decade. (I do think Russell is the goat team leader/player)

KAJ wasn't even the best player on his team for the majority of his rings (2/6 fMVPs)

Once Jordan hit his peak, he absolutely destroyed the league. He left absolutely no success for his peers to latch onto.
-6/6 Final wins
-6/6 Finals MVP
-record for the most season wins.
-Perennial scoring champion
-perennial 1st-team defensive player
-a rare guard to have won Defensive MVP.

Hell, he even dominated all-star games and dunk contests.

Any perceived weakness in his game, he fixed. He not only fixed it, he'd make a strength out of it. In all the years I've followed the NBA, nobody was as driven to be perfect as Jordan was.

(That's the most detailed "explanation" any of these people has given for his choice, and of course it's still a matter of debate).


MJ is the GOAT PERIOD... end of discussion.

F*ckin idiots trying to argue otherwise.


MJ is GOAT.
don't get mad its just the truth.

[AlphaWolf24]

MJ or Kobe.....meh it's a toss up...same player in the same role...simialr results.




(and this whole "Mj changed the game of basketball"...no , Bird and Magic revelutionized BBAll....MJ moved shoes...)

[bdreason]

It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with opportunity. I'm not saying a player is better because they are black, I'm saying a league that takes a player regardless of skin color is better than a league that artificially fills its ranks with a certain race in order to appease its fanbase.



And please, don't tell me teams were happily or eagerly adding black players in the 60's. African Americans were added to the league out of NECESSITY. Teams simply couldn't compete against other teams who had black players (like Wilt), so they did what they HAD TO. Even today, 50 years later, the NBA still strives to find white players to market to their majority white fanbase. You want me to believe that a struggling NBA in the 60's wanted to try and market black stars to white people? Sorry, I don't buy that.



Again, the difference between the 60's and today is opportunity. If you can ball, I don't care if you live in Africa, there is a chance you can play in the NBA. If anything, time has proven that Basketball, as a sport, indeed favors the black athlete because of their size, speed, and strength. That's why 90% of the NBA today is black. You want to believe that a league that was artificially relegated to a majority of white players was as competitive?


The 60's was, without a doubt, a transitional era of the NBA, and I have no doubt that some African American players benefited from the circumstances. Interesting that Wilt could average 50ppg in 1961, but never approached 30ppg again after 1966, despite being only 29.

Honestly, the fact that someone would even act like the NBA was the same league in 1960 as it was in 1970 is ridiculous. I understand you want to legitimize Wilt's 50ppg by any means necessary, but even someone who has never seen a game in his life would question the circumstances involved in such an accomplishment.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Kareem is.

[ballashotcalla]

How many people have even seen Jordan during his whole career?

You can't say anything about anyone unless you've seen them through their whole career. Listening to the media or watching highlights doesn't really do anything.

[ILLsmak]

There is no GOAT. It depends on what you want, but Jordan has his argument.

-Smak

[CavaliersFTW]

There is no GOAT. It depends on what you want, but Jordan has his argument.

-Smak

This.

[Hyperephania]

Toss up between Russell and Jordan for me really, but others also make a case(Magic, Kareem...).
On-topic Quote:

"... my grandson, sitting at the dinner table amid all the chatter and laughter, coughed and then said with that wonderful childlike innocence, "Grandpa, I have a question to ask you." The table grew silent. "Grandpa were you as good as Michael Jordan?"
We all laughed expect for my grandson. He looked around with that "What's so funny about that?" look. I laughed harder than anyone else and got up from the table and immediately took him out of my will.
In my most half-serious face I said to my grandson, "You've got the question backwards!"

So Russell definitely sees it as arguable

[returnofthemack]

just like there are people out there who believes in aliens, or other stupid sh1t, yes there are people who think MJ is not the GOAT.


your stupid for not believing in aliens. how can you look at the sky and think we humans are all there is. the universe has no bounds. your brain on the other hand.....


btw MJ is goat

[returnofthemack]

How many people have even seen Jordan during his whole career?

You can't say anything about anyone unless you've seen them through their whole career. Listening to the media or watching highlights doesn't really do anything.

i watched jordan win his rings. all of them. i dont think there is any team in teh history of the nba that could stand in the way of those bulls teams. they were the best and jordan was the leader.

[SwooshReturns]

Jordan is EASILY the greatest basketball player. While also being the most memorable, influential, and iconic athlete of his sport.

Best two way player.

Best big game player (playoffs, Finals)

Best scorer of all-time

Best #2 defender of all-time

Alpha on 6 Rings (could've been 7 or 8 had he not "retired" in peak)

Seriously on a Mt Rushemore for sports, you only get one guy per sport ... who are you picking? Guys who were the top of the class, and transcended their sport on and off the field.

Boxing - Ali
Baseball - Ruth
Basketball - Jordan
Football - Brown
Hockey - Gretzky

[tobethdope]

Jordan is EASILY the greatest basketball player. While also being the most memorable, influential, and iconic athlete of his sport.

Best two way player.

Best big game player (playoffs, Finals)

Best scorer of all-time

Best #2 defender of all-time

Alpha on 6 Rings (could've been 7 or 8 had he not "retired" in peak)

Seriously on a Mt Rushemore for sports, you only get one guy per sport ... who are you picking? Guys who were the top of the class, and transcended their sport on and off the field.

Boxing - Ali
Baseball - Ruth
Basketball - Jordan
Football - Brown
Hockey - Gretzky


this

he is considered one or maybe the best athlete/professional sports guy ever, if u wud make a world wide survey of who the greatest sports-dude ever was he wud be a close 2nd to ali and way ahead of 3rd place(probably like: ali 30%, mj 20%, 3rd >5%); (but i know that doesnt say much to the issue)

but,
its really not close, he is the ultimate player, he had it all

[Deuce Bigalow]

Last time I checked Michael Jordan was a human not a goat.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Gsgoat

[CavaliersFTW]

Last time I checked Michael Jordan was a human not a goat.

Everybody on this thread is too stupid to figure out what a goat is. :mad:

http://tennisnerd.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/goat_01.jpg

The next person who says MJ is the GOAT is gonna get punched in the mouth :mad: Jordan doesn't look like a GOAT. :mad:

[CelticBaller]

^
notsure if sarcasm or stupid

[LockoutOver11]

pages 7-9 are interesting... thanks:cheers:

[raptorfan_dr07]

MJ or Kobe.....meh it's a toss up...same player in the same role...simialr results.


No it's not. Don't even mention that overrated piece of sh*t in the same breath as Jordan. I wish DWade would have done more than just break his nose. That b*tch isn't even good enough to lick the dirt of Jordan's sneakers. EASILY the most overrated player in NBA HISTORY. Stick that low IQ chucking idiot in Charlotte like he was supposed to be and he wins jack sh*t while being a slightly more glorified Allen Iverson. Fake @$$ clown actually thinks he's MJ.

As for the OP's question, Jordan certainly has a case for being the GOAT, but there are other players(Kareem, Wilt, Russell) that have a case as well. It's not as clear cut as some people make it out to be. Basketball did not start with Michael Jordan, and some people don't seem to understand that. To me, it's all a matter of personal preference. Some pick Jordan, some pick Wilt, some pick Kareem, some pick Russell. Can't really go wrong with picking any of those players.

[chazzy]

I wish DWade would have done more than just break his nose. That b*tch isn't even good enough to lick the dirt of Jordan's sneakers. EASILY the most overrated player in NBA HISTORY. Stick that low IQ chucking idiot in Charlotte like he was supposed to be and he wins jack sh*t while being a slightly more glorified Allen Iverson. Fake @$$ clown actually thinks he's MJ.
Take a deep breath bro, it's gonna be ok. He'll be out of the league sooner than later.

[Nevaeh]

It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with opportunity. I'm not saying a player is better because they are black, I'm saying a league that takes a player regardless of skin color is better than a league that artificially fills its ranks with a certain race in order to appease its fanbase.



And please, don't tell me teams were happily or eagerly adding black players in the 60's. African Americans were added to the league out of NECESSITY. Teams simply couldn't compete against other teams who had black players (like Wilt), so they did what they HAD TO. Even today, 50 years later, the NBA still strives to find white players to market to their majority white fanbase. You want me to believe that a struggling NBA in the 60's wanted to try and market black stars to white people? Sorry, I don't buy that.



Again, the difference between the 60's and today is opportunity. If you can ball, I don't care if you live in Africa, there is a chance you can play in the NBA. If anything, time has proven that Basketball, as a sport, indeed favors the black athlete because of their size, speed, and strength. That's why 90% of the NBA today is black. You want to believe that a league that was artificially relegated to a majority of white players was as competitive?


The 60's was, without a doubt, a transitional era of the NBA, and I have no doubt that some African American players benefited from the circumstances. Interesting that Wilt could average 50ppg in 1961, but never approached 30ppg again after 1966, despite being only 29.

Honestly, the fact that someone would even act like the NBA was the same league in 1960 as it was in 1970 is ridiculous. I understand you want to legitimize Wilt's 50ppg by any means necessary, but even someone who has never seen a game in his life would question the circumstances involved in such an accomplishment.

I get what you're saying BD, but you also have to look at it from the standpoint of Wilt being a "competitor" also. Wilt could have easily did the "meek and mild" thing and played just to fit in. Instead, Wilt was actually of the mindset of "F@ck that, I have an opportunity to make history, dammit I'm doing it".

And it wasn't like he rolled over, once his comp became more black either. He was still taking it to whoever was in front of him, with whatever Rules were available to him at the time. Any player who has "Game Rules" changed because of his presence is someone to be taken seriously, in the history and context of the game, then AND now.

[Owl]

That was three of 11. In 60-61, Boston added Satch Sanders to make it four of 11. Those four would be on the roster thru the 66-67 season. In between, there were other's like Willie Naulls, Wayne Embry, John Thompson, and Woody Sauldsberry.

A couple of other points. One, take a look at Boston's white players in the early 60's. Bob Cousy, Clyde Lovellette, Bill Sharman, Tommy Heinsohn, and John Havlicek. ALL in the HOF.

Secondly, as I posted in another thread, while black players may have had to do more to get to the NBA, no intelligent owner would have denied a good black player from their roster. Why would they? It would have made no sense to try and compete.

My god, the NFL and MLB were already fielding black players. Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947. I agree that some teams, notably the Red Sox and Yankees took their time, but, most figured it out pretty quickly.

If anything, the colleges were probably more to blame (as well as the general economic environment.)

Next, find a photo of the '86 Celtics, and tell me how many white players you find on that roster.

Finally, Psileas pretty much shattered the "competition" argument against Wilt. Chamberlain dominated the good and not-so-good white centers of his era, and he dominated the good and not-so-good black players of his era, including ALL of the great ones. In fact, I would argue that no other center was more dominant, including the post-season, than Wilt was in the mid-60's. I posted Chamberlain's numbers against Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and even Russell in the mid-60's, and he was just crushing those guys. And, as Pslieas pointed out, he was murdering he likes of LeRoy Ellis, Wayne Embry, Walter Dukes, and Zelmo Beaty (along with others), too.

And by the mid-60's, when Chamberlain was winning scoring crowns, and rebounding crowns, and FG% crowns, and even among the leaders in assists, in the SAME season, the NBA was rapidly becoming a black league.

Once again, I know of only Connie Hawkins being "black-balled", and that was for a different reason. The only other player that I can think of that might have had ome kind of a case, would have been Raymond Lewis, who was playing college ball in the 70's.
I'd suggest money. Basketball was not as popular then as it was now. America was more racist then it was now. Read any book on the Celtics or Russell and you will almost inevitably here how the Celtics (the blackest team in the 60's were drawing mediocre crowds whilst a struggling Red Sox team was packing them in). Now part of that was just that baseball was more popular at the time and all that. But at a time when team ownership was a man's job and their source of income (rather than a hobby which may or may not turn out to be lucrative when you sell it) it was in the teams interests to have white players, to have largely white teams, to have white stars, in short to limit the number of black players. Obviously the balance tilted in the mid 60's the league became a lot blacker (and I think around that time a lot of the original owners got out of the game).

This isn't to deny Chamberlain his due (I would place him 3rd GOAT) but it would surely be inaccurate to imply there was no motive (even if one were to imply that owners were not the least bit racist themselves, or prioritised basketball results over any racist feelings) for racial quotas.

[SacJB Shady]

MJ is the best of all time and the best there ever will be. The only one i could see potentially reaching his level if he worked his hardest would be lin. That is FACT. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.

[Bigsmoke]

MJ is GAWD!

[jlauber]

I'd suggest money. Basketball was not as popular then as it was now. America was more racist then it was now. Read any book on the Celtics or Russell and you will almost inevitably here how the Celtics (the blackest team in the 60's were drawing mediocre crowds whilst a struggling Red Sox team was packing them in). Now part of that was just that baseball was more popular at the time and all that. But at a time when team ownership was a man's job and their source of income (rather than a hobby which may or may not turn out to be lucrative when you sell it) it was in the teams interests to have white players, to have largely white teams, to have white stars, in short to limit the number of black players. Obviously the balance tilted in the mid 60's the league became a lot blacker (and I think around that time a lot of the original owners got out of the game).

This isn't to deny Chamberlain his due (I would place him 3rd GOAT) but it would surely be inaccurate to imply there was no motive (even if one were to imply that owners were not the least bit racist themselves, or prioritised basketball results over any racist feelings) for racial quotas.

No doubt in the 50's there was a reluctance to embrace the black athlete in Boston and even the Yankees. And it ultimately set their franchises back considerably. The Red Sox had become a doormat by the 60's, and the Yankee dynasty crumbled quickly in the mid-60's.

But, as I pointed out in another thread, it wasn't just the truly great black players, like Russell, Baylor, Oscar, Bellamy, Reed, Sam Jones, and Chamberlain, but the "non-stars" like KC Jones, Satch Sanders, Attles, Rodgers, et. al., that were playing, too. Granted they were very good players, but hardly superstars. How come?

And yes, they endured racism. But, they had opportunities, too. Jackie Robinson was credited with breaking the color barrier in baseball in 1947. By the 60's the major sports were actively pursuing the black athletes. Football had become a game of track stars by the early 60's. And, of course, the pioneers in the 50's, including Russell, paved the way for the blacks in the 60's.

While I am sure you can find exceptions (prpbably even today), the BEST players were playing in the NBA by the early 60's. And let's not disparage the great white players of that era, either. Cousy was a wizard all the way back to the 50's. Sharman was one of the first truly great shooters. Heinsohn, West, Havlicek, Lucas, and then Barry and Maravich shortly thereafter. And who would have believed that the second or third (depending where you put Russell) greatest college basketball player of all-time, would have been a white center in the early 70's?

And finally, as I pointed out in that other thread, take a look at 6-6 235 lb. Gus Johnson. A truly gifted athlete, who was also a skilled offensive player. He is in the HOF, too, but take a look at his NBA career. Hell, near the end of his career, and on a bad knee, he averaged 17.1 rpg in the year in which Kareem won the MVP and FMVP. In fact, Kareem never duplicated that average. If the "white" NBA was so mediocre, how come Gus wasn't scoring 40 ppg and getting 20 rpg in the 60's?

[Asukal]

MJ is the best of all time and the best there ever will be. The only one i could see potentially reaching his level if he worked his hardest would be lin. That is FACT. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.

LOL! I love Lin but come on, he'd never reach MJ's level. The IQ is there but the skillset, the elite athleticism, the hunger to compete, Lin doesn't have those. There's chance he'd improve his skills but not his athleticism. Keep it real holmes. :cheers:

[SwayDizzle]

MJ is the best of all time and the best there ever will be. The only one i could see potentially reaching his level if he worked his hardest would be lin. That is FACT. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.
Get da f*ck out of here, Lin? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Odinn]

There are 2 #1s in my goat list; MJ & KAJ.

[barnett114]

Just wondering. :confusedshrug:

Looks at OP's name.

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