The Mystery of Jerry West's Gorilla Wingspan

[CavaliersFTW]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jb1Dlgjyj1c/SoueaWFXFOI/AAAAAAAAAQw/zN9B7DGBr48/s320/case-solved.png

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-atJDaarULkc/T1F_MgiIbyI/AAAAAAAADIk/uuCcrBNRGYk/s640/Jerry%2520West%252081%2520inch%2520wingspan.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JJZVMka2OJU/T1QR2PgVy6I/AAAAAAAADLo/jggrQX-qaOI/s640/1966%2520-%2520quickness%2520wins%2520rebounds%2520West%2520 Wingspan.jpg

6'3 Jerry West - 81" wingspan (6'9)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yDuWLOTlJdc/T1QMv7RUPcI/AAAAAAAADLM/BYy-5c5I-Fg/s400/West%2520bloc2ks.jpg

Same wingspan as 6'7 Joe Johnson
http://pinerider.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/joe-johnson.jpg
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Joe-Johnson-3013/

And 6'7 Matt Barnes
http://www.nba.com/media/warriors/BarnesFeature07_Action.jpg
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Matt-Barnes-1592/

And 6'9 Mike Dunleavy
http://www.fbasketballblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mikedunleavy-e1290043832103.jpg
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mike-Dunleavy-2294/

[bwink23]

:cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

:cheers:

I found Kareem's and Bill Russell's too

[jlauber]

Too bad West had poor form with his jump shot, and couldn't dribble with his left hand (or go left), or maybe he could have had seasons of 30 ppg, and post-seasons in the high 30's (and even a series of 46 ppg.)

[Collie]

Jerry West is one of the guys who you could take and drop in the NBA today and still be successful. He really had a "modern" game.

[CavaliersFTW]

Jerry West is one of the guys who you could take and drop in the NBA today and still be successful. He really had a "modern" game.

True. West, Bird, and Ray Allen have the fastest - purest shot release I can think of in NBA history. That's def gotta be good for something haha - and West had many other facets to his game that fans today probably don't even realize. Like excellent rebounding and chase-down blocks... LBJ actually copies that page out of little Jerry West's game :oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMq-eX_pNw&t=2m42s

:eek: Those chase-downs... and he actually keeps the plays in bounds!

[jlauber]

I found Kareem's and Bill Russell's too

I believe Russell's was 7-4.

[dbk123]

derrick rose is 6'2.5 and has a 6'8 wingspan


:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

I believe Russell's was 7-4.

I've heard that too but that's been word of mouth - That isn't the # from the 1961 source I found though - I won't reveal Kareem's and Russell's wingspan measurement yet - because I'm saving them for another topic. If you actually have a source for the 7'4 # I would really like to see it because it is different and I always like to cross reference conflicting information and get to the bottom.

[CavaliersFTW]

derrick rose is 6'2.5 and has a 6'8 wingspan


:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Good for Derrick Rose, really. :cheers:. However, I wasn't attempting to start a competition on who's got a more impressive wingspan, this post is just shedding light on a topic that vintage NBA fans have speculated but never had a concrete number for.

[Scoooter]

Does anyone know the numbers for Phil Jackson? He and Kevin McHale had the longest arms I think I've ever seen.

[CavaliersFTW]

Does anyone know the numbers for Phil Jackson? He and Kevin McHale had the longest arms I think I've ever seen.

I can try to search for them for you later tonight - They may have never been measured though. I keep looking for Nate Thurmond's too, who was allegedly as long as if not longer than Wilt. At 7'8", Wilt has the widest confirmed wingspan measurement of any NBA player at this moment - based on www.draftexpress.com/measurements and other independent measurements for various current and historical NBA players.

Keep in mind wingspan is shoulder breadth + arm length + hand length. So just because somebody has long arms doesn't necessarily translate to epic wingspan. But I'm pretty sure those two guys did have good wingspan. I think the "8 foot wingspan" claims on McHale are a myth personally, but I still think he had a reaaaally wide reach. Some guys on www.basketballforum.com claimed 90" which is the most grounded, solid looking number I've seen for McHale so far but they didn't cite it and I haven't found jack that supports it yet.

[jlauber]

I can try to search for them for you later tonight - They may have never been measured though. I keep looking for Nate Thurmond's too, who was allegedly as long as if not longer than Wilt. At 7'8", Wilt has the widest confirmed wingspan measurement of any NBA player at this moment - based on www.draftexpress.com and other independent measurements for various current and historical NBA players.

Keep in mind wingspan is shoulder breadth + arm length + hand length. So just because somebody has long arms doesn't necessarily translate to epic wingspan. But I'm pretty sure those two guys did have good wingspan. I think the "8 foot wingspan" claims on McHale are a myth personally, but I still think he had a reaaaally wide reach

I can't recall where I came across Russell's wingspan, but I do recall it being 7-4 where ever I found it. I also recall reading somewhere, that in their college matchup, that Russell actually placed his hand over the ball in the outstretched reach of 7-3 Swede Halbrook.

As for the Thurmond wingspan, again, I came across it somewhere, and I would like to think it was in a YouTube interview or documentary. Supposedly he had an inch reach advantage on Chamberlain. Of course, Wilt was a high-jump champ, so it didn't make much of a difference to Chamberlain.

I still maintain that no other legitimate NBA player ever reached the absolute heights that Wilt did.

[CavaliersFTW]

I can't recall where I came across Russell's wingspan, but I do recall it being 7-4 where ever I found it. I also recall reading somewhere, that in their college matchup, that Russell actually placed his hand over the ball in the outstretched reach of 7-3 Swede Halbrook.

As for the Thurmond wingspan, again, I came across it somewhere, and I would like to think it was in a YouTube interview or documentary. Supposedly he had an inch reach advantage on Chamberlain. Of course, Wilt was a high-jump champ, so it didn't make much of a difference to Chamberlain.

I still maintain that no other legitimate NBA player ever reached the absolute heights that Wilt did.

I've seen all that too, I have the article about Russell and Swede - but 7'4 just seems to be something speculated in the past decade that spread by word of mouth and became fact by virtue of "common knowledge" - just like how daddy long legs are the most poisonous spiders in the world despite not being spiders and despite not having potent venom at all... If something is repeated enough times people just assume it to be true. I could be wrong but so far the 7'4 claim boiled down to zero citations from anyone. I actually found a source from 1961 - from his active playing years. It differs from 7'4 but I'm thinking it's likelier to be a real measurement.

[jlauber]

I've seen all that too, I have the article about Russell and Swede - but 7'4 just seems to be something speculated in the past decade that spread by word of mouth and became fact by virtue of "common knowledge" - just like how daddy long legs are the most poisonous spiders in the world despite not being spiders and despite not having potent venom at all... If something is repeated enough times people just assume it to be true. I could be wrong but so far the 7'4 claim boiled down to zero citations from anyone. I actually found a source from 1961 - from his active playing years. It differs from 7'4 but I'm thinking it's likelier to be a real measurement.

What do you have?

[G-train]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jb1Dlgjyj1c/SoueaWFXFOI/AAAAAAAAAQw/zN9B7DGBr48/s320/case-solved.png

:roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

What do you have?

Was gonna save it for another topic where I reveal his, Kareem's, and Wilt's measurements to compare to modern centers - but Russell is stated as having an 85" wingspan in a NY Times article dated December 30th 1961

[jlauber]

Was gonna save it for another topic where I reveal his, Kareem's, and Wilt's measurements to compare to modern centers - but Russell is stated as having an 85" wingspan in a NY Times article dated December 30th 1961

Not quite 88" then.

[Eric Cartman]

OP would be a great detective in real life.

[jlauber]

Was gonna save it for another topic where I reveal his, Kareem's, and Wilt's measurements to compare to modern centers - but Russell is stated as having an 85" wingspan in a NY Times article dated December 30th 1961

BTW, Sonny Hill claims that Kareem, himself, said, that his highest reach was 12' 6", which would equal Dwight Howard's. Of course, Hill claims that he witnessed Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard (as did longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico.)

[ralph_i_el]

Watching west shoot is ridiculous. If you see it from behind it looks like 2 giant arms materialize out of nowhere. So fast. You can't barely contest it

[CavaliersFTW]

Watching west shoot is ridiculous. If you see it from behind it looks like 2 giant arms materialize out of nowhere. So fast. You can't barely contest it

He was one of those mis-match players to guard. Short legs and quick feet meant he was as mobile as a point guard but his wingspan meant he'd just shoot right over top of them. And inversely, he was quicker than the big guys that could reach him so he'd just use a quick fake or a jab to get them off balance and his shot was released before they could even recover.

[CavaliersFTW]

OP would be a great detective in real life.

http://www.healthyhuman.net/sh_profile7.gif

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2VZqY8YWHg&t=14s

Jerry West picks a guys pocket... then he throws the hammer down :rockon:

[MeLO MvP 15]

Didn't Marshon Brooks and Iman Shumpert each have ridiculous wingspan's too....
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Iman-Shumpert-5156/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Marshon-Brooks-6347/

Brooks is 6'5" with a 7'1" wingspan....

EDIT: Biyombo also has a ridiculous wing span.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bismack-Biyombo-5902/
he's 6'9" with a 7'6" wing span

[CavaliersFTW]

Didn't Marshon Brooks and Iman Shumpert each have ridiculous wingspan's too....
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Iman-Shumpert-5156/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Marshon-Brooks-6347/

Brooks is 6'5" with a 7'1" wingspan....

:eek: @ Marshon Brooks!

NBA Knuckle Draggers:

Rajon Rondo
~6'1 with a 6'9 wingspan

Derrick Rose
6'1.5" with a 6'8 Wingspan

Jerry West
~6'2.5" with a 6'9 wingspan

Iman Shumpert
6'4.25" with a 6'9.5" wingspan

Marshon Brooks
6'4.25" with a 7'1" wingspan

(west and rondo's specific heights are speculative)
Rondo's wingspan was measured on sport science.

[jlauber]

:eek: @ Marshon Brooks!

NBA Knuckle Draggers:

Rajon Rondo
~6'1 with a 6'9 wingspan

Derrick Rose
6'1.5" with a 6'8 Wingspan

Jerry West
~6'2.5" with a 6'9 wingspan

Iman Shumpert
6'4.25" with a 6'9.5" wingspan

Marshon Brooks
6'4.25" with a 7'1" wingspan

(west and rondo's specific heights are speculative)
Rondo's wingspan was measured on sport science.

Any idea on Connie Hawkins' wingspan. He not only had long arms, he had HUGE hands.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XO-p6HR1Uns/T1QMv2LwlUI/AAAAAAAADLA/IIxKwTKagcA/s400/19571220WestVirginia2.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QiO13a0nImI/T1QMwadBkCI/AAAAAAAADLY/x2rjZ4p0SS4/s400/jerry-west-west-v65irginia-basketball_t620.jpg

[La Frescobaldi]

Does anyone know the numbers for Phil Jackson? He and Kevin McHale had the longest arms I think I've ever seen.

Scottie Pippen also real long, for his body...... prolly no coincidence in each case we are finding true greatness - ability to use physical advantages to maximum potential

[La Frescobaldi]

Watching west shoot is ridiculous. If you see it from behind it looks like 2 giant arms materialize out of nowhere. So fast. You can't barely contest it

Yeah. I get a lot of grief from ISH people about it but I got Logo as the starting PG on my All-Time Starting 5

The only argument I can find for his spot is Magic which to me is true horns of the dilemma........ happily I find I can solve the conundrum perfectly by the fact, Magic is my 6th Man........ thus he plays the same minutes as everybody else, by floating for MJ, Logo, Larry Legend, and Kareem.

My center famously never came out of a game in 1962......... 48.5mpg for the season.
****************
edit: forgot.... other thing about that quick shot? Jerry had a really unique trick, which as far as I know, he invented this.... he would dribble around the perimeter, like anybody (although amazingly fast) but at some point on the arc, known only to himself, he had a single hard dribble.

I mean he would slam that ball down hard... and he would go into his jumpshot without the ball. To the defender, it was another dribble...... but for Jerry, that hard bounce would fling the ball up to about his shoulder height... into his hands as they floated up..... and with those long arms he had a high release combined with the fact he was already IN THE AIR, WITH THE BALL... before the defender could react.
Result: another uncontested shot for the Logo

Kobe Bryant, Master of All That Has Come Before has copied that move to an exact perfection that has given him a lot of buckets... over the years as his athleticism has declined he has honed his skills to a very fine sharpness indeed

[CavaliersFTW]

Scottie Pippen also real long, for his body...... prolly no coincidence in each case we are finding true greatness - ability to use physical advantages to maximum potential

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-U7-jFtGLnEg/T1RIJ2TG-DI/AAAAAAAADMA/WgLN1r0WWg4/s400/Kobe%2520Bryant%2520spreads%2520his%2520arms%2520d uring%2520Lakers%2520Media%2520Day%25202010.JPG

Yeah but also nobody needs a wide wingspan in the NBA to be great. It's not just what you got, it's how you use it. Kobe's probably got shorter arms than little Jerry West but Kobe does okay too :lol

[La Frescobaldi]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-U7-jFtGLnEg/T1RIJ2TG-DI/AAAAAAAADMA/WgLN1r0WWg4/s400/Kobe%2520Bryant%2520spreads%2520his%2520arms%2520d uring%2520Lakers%2520Media%2520Day%25202010.JPG

Yeah but also nobody needs a wide wingspan in the NBA to be great. It's not just what you got, it's how you use it. Kobe's probably got shorter arms than little Jerry West but Kobe does okay too :lol

true on the armspan........ Kobe's attribute, which sets him apart from all other players is his study of the game.

I can see guys from every era in Bryant's game, from Oscar, Logo, to Pearl & Frazier and JoJo to the great forwards of the 80s, right through Jordan.

Kobe's mindspan has no rival in his era, and very few in the history of the game

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GZGW3hPlALc/T1RK-uTYiiI/AAAAAAAADMI/iyViIaKHQ5c/s800/wilt%2520sca33le.jpg

1:1 scale... Wilt not fully grown...

(Scaled by lining up the basketball diameters - then used draftexpress barefoot height to place players at their true height)

Used the blur just to create the illusion of depth but the scaling is still 1:1

Check out the size of Wilt's hands.... :eek:

[ThaRegul8r]

I found Kareem's and Bill Russell's too

I believe Russell's was 7-4.

Yeah, it was.



I've heard that too but that's been word of mouth - That isn't the # from the 1961 source I found though


I've seen all that too, I have the article about Russell and Swede - but 7'4 just seems to be something speculated in the past decade that spread by word of mouth and became fact by virtue of "common knowledge" - just like how daddy long legs are the most poisonous spiders in the world despite not being spiders and despite not having potent venom at all... If something is repeated enough times people just assume it to be true. I could be wrong but so far the 7'4 claim boiled down to zero citations from anyone. I actually found a source from 1961 - from his active playing years. It differs from 7'4 but I'm thinking it's likelier to be a real measurement.

False. I've read with my own eyes at least two occasions in print in the paper Russell's wingspan listed as 7-4, once prior to his NBA career, and again during it. At least one of them

[CavaliersFTW]

Yeah, it was.






False. I've read with my own eyes at least two occasions in print in the paper Russell's wingspan listed as 7-4, once prior to his NBA career, and again during it. At least one of them—maybe both, but I know for a fact one was—from the New York Times.

Would you mind finding these sources? I finally find a printed source dating from his time period and your saying it's false - I've looked high and low for anything else and found nothing so far. It's not that I don't believe you - I just like to cite data that I use

[Vienceslav]

Try Kevin Mchale wingspan before you go into the Wilt worship mode again.

[CavaliersFTW]

Try Kevin Mchale wingspan before you go into the Wilt worship mode again.

I've been looking - no luck -

[Brunch@Five]

BTW, Sonny Hill claims that Kareem, himself, said, that his highest reach was 12' 6", which would equal Dwight Howard's. Of course, Hill claims that he witnessed Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard (as did longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico.)

John Ecker, who played with Kareem at UCLA and was my high school coach, told me that Kareem was able to grab money off the top of the backboard too.

[MichaelCheazley]

Dwyane wade-
6'4 - 10.75"

I believe Alonzo mourning and jason maxiell also have some ridiculous wingspans. Ike diogu and joel anthony too.

[stax]

Does anyone know the numbers for Phil Jackson? He and Kevin McHale had the longest arms I think I've ever seen.

Jackson talks briefly about his long arms in his book Sacred Hoops, recalling that he could sit in the back seat of a car and close both front doors simultaneously. I can't remember if he states his wingspan or arm length numbers. I just checked my copy but the book has no index and I'm too lazy to read it all again just for that one paragraph. :D Maybe I'll skim it later.

[BarberSchool]

edit: forgot.... other thing about that quick shot? Jerry had a really unique trick, which as far as I know, he invented this.... he would dribble around the perimeter, like anybody (although amazingly fast) but at some point on the arc, known only to himself, he had a single hard dribble.

I mean he would slam that ball down hard... and he would go into his jumpshot without the ball. To the defender, it was another dribble...... but for Jerry, that hard bounce would fling the ball up to about his shoulder height... into his hands as they floated up..... and with those long arms he had a high release combined with the fact he was already IN THE AIR, WITH THE BALL... before the defender could react.
Result: another uncontested shot for the Logo

Kobe Bryant, Master of All That Has Come Before has copied that move to an exact perfection that has given him a lot of buckets... over the years as his athleticism has declined he has honed his skills to a very fine sharpness indeedVery interesting piece of trivia Frescobaldi. :cheers:

[Pointguard]

Dwyane wade-
6'4 - 10.75"

I believe Alonzo mourning and jason maxiell also have some ridiculous wingspans. Ike diogu and joel anthony too.

Ha, You got my three! I would throw in Durant as well.

Wade seems to not jump much to get off dunks.

[Pointguard]

What I don't get is why are some guys with long arm spans are excellent shooters? In science you would figure the more leverage - the more things could go wrong.

[KenneBell]

Yeah but also nobody needs a wide wingspan in the NBA to be great. It's not just what you got, it's how you use it. Kobe's probably got shorter arms than little Jerry West but Kobe does okay too :lol
Nah, his wingspan I believe is something like 6'11".

No definite numbers though.

[jlip]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-atJDaarULkc/T1F_MgiIbyI/AAAAAAAADIk/uuCcrBNRGYk/s640/Jerry%2520West%252081%2520inch%2520wingspan.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JJZVMka2OJU/T1QR2PgVy6I/AAAAAAAADLo/jggrQX-qaOI/s640/1966%2520-%2520quickness%2520wins%2520rebounds%2520West%2520 Wingspan.jpg


"Sloan doesn't have Robertson's ability to hang in the air for what seems like seconds at a time."

This quote about Oscar Robertson is the more surprising one to me. I knew that he was more athletic than what he's given credit for, but I didn't know that he had a reputation for impressive "hang time." I remember reading in his autobiography his account of the incident which stopped him from dunking. It was either in high school or college. I think someone may have undercut him or something as he was going up for a dunk. It's been a while since I've read it though.

[Pointguard]

****************
edit: forgot.... other thing about that quick shot? Jerry had a really unique trick, which as far as I know, he invented this.... he would dribble around the perimeter, like anybody (although amazingly fast) but at some point on the arc, known only to himself, he had a single hard dribble.

I mean he would slam that ball down hard... and he would go into his jumpshot without the ball. To the defender, it was another dribble...... but for Jerry, that hard bounce would fling the ball up to about his shoulder height... into his hands as they floated up..... and with those long arms he had a high release combined with the fact he was already IN THE AIR, WITH THE BALL... before the defender could react.
Result: another uncontested shot for the Logo

Kobe Bryant, Master of All That Has Come Before has copied that move to an exact perfection that has given him a lot of buckets... over the years as his athleticism has declined he has honed his skills to a very fine sharpness indeed
They do teach you that in camp (at least in the 80's). Magic would hard dribble to get leverage on a quick pass. Sometimes you will see Durant do it on the shot. Kobe does a lot of things textbook in style - D Rose too. Kobe and Magic used to always hard dribble. In their later years, not all the time. Kobe hard dribbles sometimes now to confuse the defender.

[DC Zephyrs]

Wall has a pretty freakish wingspan as well, something in the 6'10 range if I remember correctly. He's going to be a scary defensive player once his effort becomes more consistent on that end.

[Euroleague]

Nah, his wingspan I believe is something like 6'11".

No definite numbers though.

Kobe's wingspan is 6-10.

[ILLsmak]

Yeah. I get a lot of grief from ISH people about it but I got Logo as the starting PG on my All-Time Starting 5

The only argument I can find for his spot is Magic which to me is true horns of the dilemma........ happily I find I can solve the conundrum perfectly by the fact, Magic is my 6th Man........ thus he plays the same minutes as everybody else, by floating for MJ, Logo, Larry Legend, and Kareem.

My center famously never came out of a game in 1962......... 48.5mpg for the season.
****************
edit: forgot.... other thing about that quick shot? Jerry had a really unique trick, which as far as I know, he invented this.... he would dribble around the perimeter, like anybody (although amazingly fast) but at some point on the arc, known only to himself, he had a single hard dribble.

I mean he would slam that ball down hard... and he would go into his jumpshot without the ball. To the defender, it was another dribble...... but for Jerry, that hard bounce would fling the ball up to about his shoulder height... into his hands as they floated up..... and with those long arms he had a high release combined with the fact he was already IN THE AIR, WITH THE BALL... before the defender could react.
Result: another uncontested shot for the Logo

Kobe Bryant, Master of All That Has Come Before has copied that move to an exact perfection that has given him a lot of buckets... over the years as his athleticism has declined he has honed his skills to a very fine sharpness indeed

lol Don't worry Magic, you can be 6th man for my all-time starting 5.

-Smak

[jlauber]

John Ecker, who played with Kareem at UCLA and was my high school coach, told me that Kareem was able to grab money off the top of the backboard too.

Maybe you can find his quote in print, or an interview on YouTube then?

[Brunch@Five]

Maybe you can find his quote in print, or an interview on YouTube then?

he told me in person, so there isn't a quote anywhere on the internet, I'm sorry.

[PP34Deuce]

Wingspan always allowed guys not real real athletic to make great defensive plays.

I think the reason Pierce is a great defender at times is because his IQ and his wingspan... I think i remember in 97-98 they said he has like a 7'1 wingspan at 6'6 1/2 or something.

PP barely jumps on a lot of blocks he gets on players.

Anyone know KGs...

[Lebron23]

Paul Pierce is a legit 6'6" with a 7'1" wingspan. The NBA started to lists him at 6'7" after the Celtics acquired Allen and KG.

[PP34Deuce]

its crazy seeing jerry west videos... skinny and short shorts with massive biceps and arm length for his size... He was a freak of a nature especially being Caucasion with that wingspan.

[ThaRegul8r]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r][QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I've seen all that too, I have the article about Russell and Swede - but 7'4 just seems to be something speculated in the past decade that spread by word of mouth and became fact by virtue of "common knowledge" - just like how daddy long legs are the most poisonous spiders in the world despite not being spiders and despite not having potent venom at all... If something is repeated enough times people just assume it to be true. I could be wrong but so far the 7'4 claim boiled down to zero citations from anyone. I actually found a source from 1961 - from his active playing years. It differs from 7'4 but I'm thinking it's likelier to be a real measurement.

False. I've read with my own eyes at least two occasions in print in the paper Russell's wingspan listed as 7-4, once prior to his NBA career, and again during it. At least one of them

[CavaliersFTW]

Kobe's wingspan is 6-10.

Cool, according to an article a few years ago he's quoted saying his wife measured him one day out of curiosity and he is supposedly about 6'4 and 3/4 (virtually identical to MJ) - do you have a source for the 6-10# by chance?

[CavaliersFTW]

False. It irks me when people put words in my mouth, so let's start again.

You made the statement that Russell's wingspan being 7'4" "just seems to be something speculated in the past decade that spread by word of mouth and became fact by virtue of 'common knowledge.'"

I said that that statement is false because I read in print in the newspaper (didn't say I Googled it on Google archive) on at least two occasions that Russell's wingspan was 7-4. I know nothing about your source, and didn't comment on it. I'm saying your assertion that the 7-4 number is some "urban legend" is false. Again, I reiterate, just because you aren't aware of something doesn't mean it isn't true. This is nothing personal against you, but I correct inaccurate statements whenever I happen to come across them, regardless of who makes them, and have been doing so long before encountering you, so this has nothing to do with you personally. I'm just correcting a statement that I know to be false.

I'm not taking offense to corrections I encourage them, I am a stickler for accurate information. So I appreciate the clarification. I was actually going to start a thread with Russell/Kareem/Wilt measurements for comparison to modern drafted centers but in light of what you said I'll look more into Russel's.

Not every article I come across is solid, In one article I have, they were directly comparing the up and coming "Lew Alcindor" to Wilt using very specific measurements and their wingspan info they gave on Wilt was within an inch of the one captured on film in the Ali vs Wilt footage on youtube so it seems the publishers of that article weren't just pulling numbers out of a hat for the sake of a good story. The Russell article I have on the other hand, is one I'll take with a grain of Salt - It's published in a story that's supposed to be about a game it's not a player comparison. They mention his wing span only as a passing detail like this: "Sporting an eighty-five inch wingspan and a Vandyke on his chin, :blah ...." they go on to describe how Bill Russell dominated the NY Knicks. It could simply be a lazy journalist's misinformation - there's lots of misinformation from that time. Wilt's wingspan from that era -according to the lazier journalists- is as low as 7-2 and as high as 101 inches.

For Bill Russell, I'm personally more inclined to believe 7-4 since it isn't just a modern spin. 7'2 arms would be a notable handicap against Wilt and it just doesn't add up to his descriptions of being extraordinarily long - nor does it serve to justify his adept ability to block every shot in the building. I'll pursue more archive info hopefully I'll find something better - something in the ~7-4 ballpark.

[PTB Fan]

Great thread.

West's long arms was his greatest physical gift, and a big reason why he was so successful defensively. This allowed him to get ton of steals, blocks and bother his man on D.

He's got a solid case for the honor of top defensive guard. I'd say, he's one of the best off-ball stoppers of all time.

[Lebron23]

What's West vertical leap?

[CavaliersFTW]

What's West vertical leap?

Likely it was never measured, vertical leap back then wasn't a thing people used as standard measurement to gauge players. Heck, even finding armspans is rare from that long ago.

In a few interviews and documentaries about Jerry West both Jerry, and the people who played with Jerry are consistently going out of their way to mention that he could really jump when he was younger. A team mate said "he'd always be up way over the rim"

Now, I have no idea how true this is but NBA.com's bio of Jerry West says as a rookie, that his teammates were impressed to see that he could touch 16" above the rim. I don't know how they'd know it's precisely 16" or what teammates they were but lets just pretend it's true for a second. That would be an 11'6" max reach and that is really up there. At the same same time the # itself could be exaggeration or erroneous educated guess so lets take it with a grain of salt. Still, the implication is consistent and clear, West used to have a pretty stand-out vertical - at least in his younger years. West said he was ahead of his time athletically, he used to run in the Mountains of WV to keep his legs strong and to keep himself in peak physical conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2VZqY8YWHg

West steals and does an effortless looking dunk at WVU in that clip, and he took off just outside of that foul circle in the key - not bad for a guy who is only about 6'2.5-6'2.75" in his bare feet.


Also in one of the testimonials of West and his teammates (either college or HS, can't remember which) West asked if he could tip-off against a center during a big game for a play where he told his teammates just to be ready to catch it. The center was a 6'8 or 6'9 guy and West put the tap right in the hands of his teammate.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eFaMex5pMnQ/T1RBR90NyCI/AAAAAAAADLw/3bcdtwy1n8U/s400/Jerry_West%2520soar5s.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XO-p6HR1Uns/T1QMv2LwlUI/AAAAAAAADLA/IIxKwTKagcA/s400/19571220WestVirginia2.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yDuWLOTlJdc/T1QMv7RUPcI/AAAAAAAADLM/BYy-5c5I-Fg/s400/West%2520bloc2ks.jpg

[Gotterdammerung]

Can't remember who, but some scout said that, despite being 6' 10", Tim Duncan's wingspan is 7' 3", and that explains why he can corrall a lot of rebounds without fouling others (over the back) and why he can block shots without having to jump so high and inadvertently bump into the shooter's body, etc.

[Gotterdammerung]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GZGW3hPlALc/T1RK-uTYiiI/AAAAAAAADMI/iyViIaKHQ5c/s800/wilt%2520sca33le.jpg

That's the most amazing pix I've seen today. :cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

its crazy seeing jerry west videos... skinny and short shorts with massive biceps and arm length for his size... He was a freak of a nature especially being Caucasion with that wingspan.

This is a good observation. I know bringing up race is sensitive but it is actually true, the majority of caucasian (and asian) individuals do not tend to have a significantly greater wingspan than their own height. It can be attributed as a subtle, cooler climate adaptation (as seen in other animals).

Longer limbs are more common in the people of immediate African ancestry. Bodies with larger surface areas (leaner, longer limbed) are a warm climate adaptation seen in many species in nature (wolves of the same species in northern latitudes have shorter legs than southern latitude wolves). It would seem humans are no exception. But, we all came from Africa at some point in ~recent pre-history so we are all still the same species with virtually identical DNA - the frequency of expression is the only real difference in "races" if such a word is appropriate. So Jerry West does have an uncommon physique for a "white guy" :D

[CavaliersFTW]

That's the most amazing pix I've seen today. :cheers:

Thanks :cheers:

Some people tend to think the NBA is just a bunch of Wilt Chamberlains running around the floor today because they say "he was ahead of his time". That's not really the case, time isn't likely to "catch up" to him at all, sure some guys here and there might approach his height, or his athleticism, or any one of a few specific characteristics he had but the combination of traits he possessed isn't ever going to be found on a regular basis, and it may never be found within our life times or in many future life-times he might be that rare who knows. All I know, based on research I've done, is that to this point there hasn't been other guys with the combination of things he had. So there really is some solid, explainable reasons as to why he was so physically dominant and it's got it's got less to do with any "he faced (insert criticism) talent" than some might think. By the way - in the chart, as shown - he was "only" 6'11.5 in High School - he was 7'1.06 when he was fully grown... he got bigger than you see in that picture.

Those are barefoot heights of all of those guys. Iggys and Dwights came from www.draftexpress.com/measurements. And I know Wilt's high-school height because of an interview on film where a journalist asks: "You know I've heard you are anywhere from 7 to as much as 9 feet tall, would you please clarify for everyone, exactly how tall you are?" Wilt's response: "Well, I'm exactly 6'11.5 in my stocking feet (his socks)." So those are all accurately scaled vertically to represent their heights based on a grid I extrapolated based on the known diameters of a basketball. Grid scaling like this is something I do while publishing scientific illustrations such as paleontology art. It makes for a great visual to show just how massive and long his frame was. Look at his hands compared to Iggy's

:D

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BcvlJQFFwiw/T2Te30k25xI/AAAAAAAADOk/9UY2XQWc_Gw/s800/West1110028.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e9ptFegtSGg/T2Tfo7rxOhI/AAAAAAAADOs/m8UZ8BnOeM8/s400/3zh1p2912.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dvZcnlTcByM/T2Tgh2KVO_I/AAAAAAAADO0/D6NJrfhvUXA/s800/West-Pitt-126.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5csP6wp3aW4/T2Ta1w6MJJI/AAAAAAAADOc/WxGvVThG8aM/s800/West%2520blocks.jpg

West is an impressive specimen for such a small guy. I'm pretty sure the footage of him as an old Laker in the 70's that everybody sees most often won't do him justice for what he once was. A high-flying, very fast, very long short guy. With a tenacious competitive drive and no fear in the clutch.

Check out his chase-down blocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMq-eX_pNw&t=2m55s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWVi0EtJcZg&t=10m56s

[millwad]

Too bad West had poor form with his jump shot, and couldn't dribble with his left hand (or go left), or maybe he could have had seasons of 30 ppg, and post-seasons in the high 30's (and even a series of 46 ppg.)

Can't you just shut up for once?
You whine constantly and you spam constantly about people dissing the players in the 60's. Why do you even care so much? Even you used to write how modern era players are better than these guys, you hypocrite.

And you always post that agenda-driven crap because you are obsessed with Wilt, you couldn't care less about anyone else in the 60's, you're only defending them to make Wilt look better. You're such a f4ggot.

[millwad]

OP would be a great detective in real life.

OP is actually a great poster, I read most of his stuff and he always backs up his posts with excellent sources, pics and videos.

[CavaliersFTW]

OP is actually a great poster, I read most of his stuff and he always backs up his posts with excellent sources, pics and videos.

:cheers:

[Gotterdammerung]

Thanks :cheers:

Some people tend to think the NBA is just a bunch of Wilt Chamberlains running around the floor today because they say "he was ahead of his time". That's not really the case, time isn't likely to "catch up" to him at all, sure some guys here and there might approach his height, or his athleticism, or any one of a few specific characteristics he had but the combination of traits he possessed isn't ever going to be found on a regular basis, and it may never be found within our life times or in many future life-times he might be that rare who knows. All I know, based on research I've done, is that to this point there hasn't been other guys with the combination of things he had. So there really is some solid, explainable reasons as to why he was so physically dominant and it's got it's got less to do with any "he faced (insert criticism) talent" than some might think. By the way - in the chart, as shown - he was "only" 6'11.5 in High School - he was 7'1.06 when he was fully grown... he got bigger than you see in that picture.

Those are barefoot heights of all of those guys. Iggys and Dwights came from www.draftexpress.com/measurements. And I know Wilt's high-school height because of an interview on film where a journalist asks: "You know I've heard you are anywhere from 7 to as much as 9 feet tall, would you please clarify for everyone, exactly how tall you are?" Wilt's response: "Well, I'm exactly 6'11.5 in my stocking feet (his socks)." So those are all accurately scaled vertically to represent their heights based on a grid I extrapolated based on the known diameters of a basketball. Grid scaling like this is something I do while publishing scientific illustrations such as paleontology art. It makes for a great visual to show just how massive and long his frame was. Look at his hands compared to Iggy's

:D
It is a fantastic photo, and you did a great job in extrapolating from the image of the basketball, which seems quite logical after all. :cheers:

A 16 year old Wilt looming behind both modern day NBA players drives the point home better than any yakety yak yak ever could. :biggums:

As for Wilt's grip, we see this all the time in those old videos where he's palming the ball like a small grapefruit, before he makes a move to the basket or swings a dump off pass to a cutting teammate, etc.

[Psileas]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BcvlJQFFwiw/T2Te30k25xI/AAAAAAAADOk/9UY2XQWc_Gw/s800/West1110028.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e9ptFegtSGg/T2Tfo7rxOhI/AAAAAAAADOs/m8UZ8BnOeM8/s400/3zh1p2912.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dvZcnlTcByM/T2Tgh2KVO_I/AAAAAAAADO0/D6NJrfhvUXA/s800/West-Pitt-126.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5csP6wp3aW4/T2Ta1w6MJJI/AAAAAAAADOc/WxGvVThG8aM/s800/West%2520blocks.jpg

West is an impressive specimen for such a small guy. I'm pretty sure the footage of him as an old Laker in the 70's that everybody sees most often won't do him justice for what he once was. A high-flying, very fast, very long short guy. With a tenacious competitive drive and no fear in the clutch.

Check out his chase-down blocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMq-eX_pNw&t=2m55s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWVi0EtJcZg&t=10m56s

Almost one decade ago, I had seen and saved a black-white photo of West (I'm 80% sure it was a photo of him from college) that showed him (probably) having another of his chase-down blocked shots. The photo was taken from behind, but showed him bending in the air in order to avoid hitting the backboard with his head. The perception, of course, of the photo wasn't the best availabe, but he did seem like he was doing the right thing and that his head was very close to the backboard (a height of 9.5 feet).

But alas, this was 3 PC's ago. I've tried to no avail to find this photo in my current PC or in the Internet.

[PTB Fan]

OP's a person who doesn't mind to research into things.

I wish i could do the same, but this month, i didn't have the most brilliant times so i have to improve few grades. If you don't mind, i may use some of this staff into my articles.

[jlauber]

Can't you just shut up for once?
You whine constantly and you spam constantly about people dissing the players in the 60's. Why do you even care so much? Even you used to write how modern era players are better than these guys, you hypocrite.

And you always post that agenda-driven crap because you are obsessed with Wilt, you couldn't care less about anyone else in the 60's, you're only defending them to make Wilt look better. You're such a f4ggot.

Dickwad,

YOU were the LIAR who claimed that Hakeem didn't guard Kareem in the games in which a 38-39 year old Kareem just SHELLED the Rockets. The FACT is, YOU have NEVER seen ONE MINUTE of ANY of those games, you idiot.

YOU know absolutely NOTHING about the game...PERIOD. YOU have NEVER provided one SHRED of evidence, or research in ANY of your posts. AND, you continually pop into these topics, and offer NOTHING, but complete nonsense.

Furthermore, as more-and-more VIDEO FOOTAGE, NEWPAPER and MAGAZINE articles AT THE TIME, and QUOTES from FIRST HAND accounts by PEERS, becomes available, the clowns like yourself, will continue to duck for cover.

YOU and a few others have been plastering this forum for the last couple of years that Wilt wasn't doing anything that he was given credit for. Where is the VIDEO FOOTAGE that shows Wilt's vertical? Oh wait, we now have a VIDEO of a Chamberlain, in a fast-paced game, with no time to react, and going straight up (without benefit of a running start), with his fingertips at near the top of the backboard. CLEARLY, we now KNOW that the man was capable of touching the backboard, a feat which the "anti-Wilt" clan claimed was impossible. We also have the VIDEO conversation of none other than Tex Winter, claiming that he witnessed a high school Chamberlain, with three steps from behind the FT line, DUNKING a basketball...which supports the TONE of ARTICLES which have credited Wilt with that astonishing feat.

YOU, and other's laughed at my posts claiming that Wilt had a good outside game, even though I provided a quote from a HOF coach who claimed that very fact. All of a sudden, in the last few months, we have VIDEO FOOTAGE, during actual GAMES, in which Wilt is hitting a variety of shots from 15+ feet. Not a single highlight here-or-there, but MULTIPLE SHOTS in SINGLE GAMES, in which Wilt is scoring from 15+ feet, and making bank shots, JUMP SHOTS, spinning turn-around jump shots, and even HOOK SHOTS. CLEARLY, a Wilt up thru the first half of his pro career, was a GOOD outside shooter.

Then, YOU challenged my take that Wilt was SWARMED in his career. Here again, we have VIDEO FOOTAGE which supports just that. Not only that, we have multiple ARTICLES which back up that claim. And we have QUOTES from PEERS who also support my take.

Then you challenged my take that Wilt blocked some 15 of Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks in the '72 WCF's. We do KNOW that Wilt was capable of blocking them, because we have VIDEO FOOTAGE in which Wilt blocks not one, but TWO, in a span of a few seconds. We also have the OP claiming that he saw Wilt block 20+ in that series. We have the RESEARCH by another poster here, who provided the Wilt-Kareem H2H's LONG BEFORE anyone else ever did, and SURE ENOUGH, his RESEARCH was dead-on...claiming that Wiilt blocked 15 of Kareem's shots in just three games of that series. Furthermore, he provided RESEARCH with a total of 29 blocks, just covering SIX of the 28 H2H's between the two. Of course, PHILA provided NEWSPAPER ARTICLES with some of Wilt's block totals against Kareem in that series, too.

YOU also challenged my take that Wilt OUTPLAYED Kareem in the '72 WCF's, citing your RIDICULOUS OPINION that since Kareem outscored Wilt, he must have outplayed him. YET, I have provided NEWSPAPER ARTICLES, including one by the MILWAUKEE PRESS, as well as one TIME MAGAZINE, which CLEARLY gave Wilt the "win" in that series. Of course, CavsFan provided NEWSPAPER ARTICLES which credited Wilt with outplaying Kareem in the '71 WCF's, as well (in a series in which the 34 year old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery, matched a PRIME Kareem in every stat.)

Of course, I also provided a TON of statistical information, in which a PRIME Chamberlain dominated many of the SAME centers that Kareem would face (and most well past their primes when he did so), FAR more than Kareem ever did. Or that a Wilt, before shredding his knee, just POUNDED a young Kareem in their one H2H before Chamberlain's injury (and that was NOT a PRIME Wilt either.)

All of which was remarkable, since a 38-39 year old Kareem was scoring at will against a helpless Hakeem. In fact, Hakeem was well down the list of those that defended Kareem in their H2H's. Gilmore, Thurmond, and Moses were much more competitive. In fact, a PRIME Moses thoroughly outplayed a near-PRIME Kareem (here again, Kareem's REAL PRIME was in the early 70's.)

So, maybe YOU should just give up this continuous trash against the players of the 60's. Players like West, Oscar, Russell, Thurmond, Lucas, Hawkins, Maravich, Gus Johnson, Earl Monroe, Kareem, and Wilt, would all be GREAT in today's game. We have enough VIDEO FOOTAGE, and RESEARCH that CLEARLY demonstrates that fact.

And, you have NEVER offered ANY research, or video footage, or articles AT THE TIME, or quotes from PEERS, that would refute those claims.

And, before you try to blame me for bringing Wilt into this discussion...take a close look at YOUR post. ONCE AGAIN, it was YOU that did. Now, why don't YOU do all of the intelligent posters here a favor, and just refrain from making a complete a$$ of yourself by popping into nearly every topic which is even remotely associated with Wilt, and posting your usual TRASH?

[millwad]

Dickwad,

YOU were the LIAR who claimed that Hakeem didn't guard Kareem in the games in which a 38-39 year old Kareem just SHELLED the Rockets. The FACT is, YOU have NEVER seen ONE MINUTE of ANY of those games, you idiot.

YOU know absolutely NOTHING about the game...PERIOD. YOU have NEVER provided one SHRED of evidence, or research in ANY of your posts. AND, you continually pop into these topics, and offer NOTHING, but complete nonsense.

Furthermore, as more-and-more VIDEO FOOTAGE, NEWPAPER and MAGAZINE articles AT THE TIME, and QUOTES from FIRST HAND accounts by PEERS, becomes available, the clowns like yourself, will continue to duck for cover.

YOU and a few others have been plastering this forum for the last couple of years that Wilt wasn't doing anything that he was given credit for. Where is the VIDEO FOOTAGE that shows Wilt's vertical? Oh wait, we now have a VIDEO of a Chamberlain, in a fast-paced game, with no time to react, and going straight up (without benefit of a running start), with his fingertips at near the top of the backboard. CLEARLY, we now KNOW that the man was capable of touching the backboard, a feat which the "anti-Wilt" clan claimed was impossible. We also have the VIDEO conversation of none other than Tex Winter, claiming that he witnessed a high school Chamberlain, with three steps from behind the FT line, DUNKING a basketball...which supports the TONE of ARTICLES which have credited Wilt with that astonishing feat.

YOU, and other's laughed at my posts claiming that Wilt had a good outside game, even though I provided a quote from a HOF coach who claimed that very fact. All of a sudden, in the last few months, we have VIDEO FOOTAGE, during actual GAMES, in which Wilt is hitting a variety of shots from 15+ feet. Not a single highlight here-or-there, but MULTIPLE SHOTS in SINGLE GAMES, in which Wilt is scoring from 15+ feet, and making bank shots, JUMP SHOTS, spinning turn-around jump shots, and even HOOK SHOTS. CLEARLY, a Wilt up thru the first half of his pro career, was a GOOD outside shooter.

Then, YOU challenged my take that Wilt was SWARMED in his career. Here again, we have VIDEO FOOTAGE which supports just that. Not only that, we have multiple ARTICLES which back up that claim. And we have QUOTES from PEERS who also support my take.

Then you challenged my take that Wilt blocked some 15 of Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks in the '72 WCF's. We do KNOW that Wilt was capable of blocking them, because we have VIDEO FOOTAGE in which Wilt blocks not one, but TWO, in a span of a few seconds. We also have the OP claiming that he saw Wilt block 20+ in that series. We have the RESEARCH by another poster here, who provided the Wilt-Kareem H2H's LONG BEFORE anyone else ever did, and SURE ENOUGH, his RESEARCH was dead-on...claiming that Wiilt blocked 15 of Kareem's shots in just three games of that series. Furthermore, he provided RESEARCH with a total of 29 blocks, just covering SIX of the 28 H2H's between the two. Of course, PHILA provided NEWSPAPER ARTICLES with some of Wilt's block totals against Kareem in that series, too.

YOU also challenged my take that Wilt OUTPLAYED Kareem in the '72 WCF's, citing your RIDICULOUS OPINION that since Kareem outscored Wilt, he must have outplayed him. YET, I have provided NEWSPAPER ARTICLES, including one by the MILWAUKEE PRESS, as well as one TIME MAGAZINE, which CLEARLY gave Wilt the "win" in that series. Of course, CavsFan provided NEWSPAPER ARTICLES which credited Wilt with outplaying Kareem in the '71 WCF's, as well (in a series in which the 34 year old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery, matched a PRIME Kareem in every stat.)

Of course, I also provided a TON of statistical information, in which a PRIME Chamberlain dominated many of the SAME centers that Kareem would face (and most well past their primes when he did so), FAR more than Kareem ever did. Or that a Wilt, before shredding his knee, just POUNDED a young Kareem in their one H2H before Chamberlain's injury (and that was NOT a PRIME Wilt either.)

All of which was remarkable, since a 38-39 year old Kareem was scoring at will against a helpless Hakeem. In fact, Hakeem was well down the list of those that defended Kareem in their H2H's. Gilmore, Thurmond, and Moses were much more competitive. In fact, a PRIME Moses thoroughly outplayed a near-PRIME Kareem (here again, Kareem's REAL PRIME was in the early 70's.)

So, maybe YOU should just give up this continuous trash against the players of the 60's. Players like West, Oscar, Russell, Thurmond, Lucas, Hawkins, Maravich, Gus Johnson, Earl Monroe, Kareem, and Wilt, would all be GREAT in today's game. We have enough VIDEO FOOTAGE, and RESEARCH that CLEARLY demonstrates that fact.

And, you have NEVER offered ANY research, or video footage, or articles AT THE TIME, or quotes from PEERS, that would refute those claims.

And, before you try to blame me for bringing Wilt into this discussion...take a close look at YOUR post. ONCE AGAIN, it was YOU that did. Now, why don't YOU do all of the intelligent posters here a favor, and just refrain from making a complete a$$ of yourself by popping into nearly every topic which is even remotely associated with Wilt, and posting your usual TRASH?

Can't actually get it that you spent all that time just to "diss" me.

I have already covered all your lies and BS

[millwad]

And Jlauber, it's pathetic that you're misreading my posts with purpose.

I never wrote that Wilt didn't get double-team'd, I wrote that he didn't get as many double-teams like modern centers a la Hakeem and Shaq and that he faced worse defensive schemes.

And you idiot, you wrote that Wilt "murdered" Kareem in '72, I'm sure Wilt-fans like CavaliersFTW can tell you that that wasn't the case.

And still you can't prove that Wilt blocked 20+ skyhooks in that series, idiot.

And I wrote that Wilt didn't touch the top of the backboard in that clip, I don't know if he could touch the top of the backboard..

I've never said that old school legends wouldn't be great with modern ways of training..:facepalm

You suck so much.. Now shut your mouth and go and do something else and stop spamming about Wilt in a thread about Jerry West.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=millwad]Can't actually get it that you spent all that time just to "diss" me.

I have already covered all your lies and BS

[millwad]

Hopefully your PM's to those two were nowhere near as deplorable as the one's you sent me.

And yes, you are a "Wilt-hater." You have PROVEN that beyond a shadow of a doubt. In virtually EVERY topic in which Wilt's name is brought up, you pop in with nothing but disparaging remarks,...and of course,...NOTHING to substantiate your bias.

You have become a laughingstock on this forum, and yet, you repeatedly come back for more. NO ONE, other than the remnants of the "anti-Chamberlain" gang that is left, sides with you. And even those few that are left are fast dwindling. Of course, they have no legs left to stand on, now that we are getting more-and-more video footage, articles, and quotes from respected peers, which just destroys the "Wilt-bashers" here on this forum.

Haha, have I become a laughingstock on this forum..:facepalm
Can't believe that you would say that to anyone, you can't even start a thread without people mocking you. In fact, even Wilt-fans mock you..

The only thing I do is to challenge your nonsense and made up crap. And the funny thing is, I didn't even know who the hell you were prior to your spamming in some thread where people discussed Hakeem. You wrote essays after essays and everyone told you top stop but since you're mentally challenged you couldn't. You're famous for your OT-posts.. SUCKER.

Again, shut up, don't ruin this thread.

[pauk]

OT: Nothing beats Rajon Rondos wingspan tho... relative to height i mean...

he has a 6'10-6'11 wingspan and is 6'0-6'1........ that is freakish...

http://soulhonky.com/candanny/url.jpeg

[CavaliersFTW]

OT: Nothing beats Rajon Rondos wingspan tho... relative to height i mean...

he has a 6'10-6'11 wingspan and is 6'0-6'1........ that is freakish...

http://soulhonky.com/candanny/url.jpeg

I posted the video earlier in this thread, sports science measured him - 6'9 wingspan, and he's ~6'1 in height. I'd think Bismack Biyombo is either tied or takes the cake of "relative" wingspan to height. 6'8.31" barefoot at the time of the NBA draft with a fraction of an inch more tha 7'6" wingspan... :eek:

Both of those guys are def top tier armspan/height ratio. There might be a few others in that demographic you can browse www.draftexpress.com/measurements to see who else stands out.

[Lebron23]

Elton Brand wingspan

6'8.25" (with out shoes)
7'5'5" wingspan

[Lebron23]

Ben Gordon

6'1" (6'2.25" in shoes)
6'8.5" wingspan
200 lbs

[CavaliersFTW]

Satch Sanders and Sam Jones watch Havlicek pick some dudes pockets while watching highlights of an old playoff game and the guy watching with them and listening to them talk says "Havlicek must have had quick hands" - Satch says "well he was also equipped with that deceptively large wingspan he gave a lot of people trouble on defense"... later they mention the same thing for the Lakers workhorse forward Rudy Larusso would inversely give them problems with his defense.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1972/1113_large.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jJejnHP_bD4/TsalRvlFfaI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/71xQPBdVrGo/111118_74567922plus.jpg

Believe it or not based on the book the Rivalry that I'm reading thousands of players were scouted every year all over the country back then by a network of each teams regional contacts and scouts to make sure the very best 25 players in the game were the ones being drafted every year (because teams that tanked knew exactly which pick they'd have and wanted to have the upper hand, and they'd often make trade deals if such and such team drafted such and such player first) - There was no organized draft camp to take measurements like what has been done this past decade, but I think it's no coincidence that a lot of the "top 25" players had what we know today as the successful physical ingredients of good players. Bob Cousy had excellent peripheral vision and large hands which we now know is good for point guards - allegedly he also had a good enough vertical that at 6'1 he could still get up and dunk though I haven't seen this on film. Jerry West at 6'3 could dunk I've seen that on film and the NBA.com bio says he could get 16" above rim when he entered the league.

There's also footage of the Lakers early 60's 6'2 white-dude point guard Jimmy King palming the ball around with ease with the coach saying he also had very large hands, and he shows hang time on a lot of his plays, and does an in game dunk that looked effortless. I bet a lot of those guys, white or black, would be the typical expected NBA specimens that all have the various physical traits that had incidentally given them the extra edge to be the best among the best. When your only drafting 25 guys a year that are the best of the best NCAA athletes it's probably not going to be coincidence that they had physical traits (even if they went unmeasured) helping them be that much better than their competition. Wish there were more measurements of a lot of these guys but it's pretty cool that I actually found numbers of West's wingspan, I always wondered what it was because he rebounds and did chase-down blocks so well for such a diminutive shooting guard

[TheTenth]

Sorry for the bump, but I may have found some other late 50s/early 60s player's wingspans. What I did was use "pixel stick" to calculate the length of the outstretched arm, ball, and chest. Then I multiplied arm x 2, added chest length, and divided that sum by the ball length. Then I multiplied this number by 9 (since the ball is 9 inches long.) It sounds really complicated but it was actually rather simple.

None of this exact science, and obviously many of the measurements may be wrong. I give a interval of (-1, +1.5) to either add or subtract from the number I find for the exact length but I did measure Russell's to check validity.

Cliff Hagan:
Height: 6'4
Wingspan: 6'4.2

Bill Russell:
Height: 6'10
Wingspan: 7'3.6

John Havlicek:
Height: 6'5
Wingspan: 6'7.5

Tom Heinsohn
Height: 6'7
Wingspan: 6'9.1

Bob Cousy:
Height: 6'1
Wingspan: 6'3.5

^ Cousy's shocked me the most, since players from the time talk about how he had such long arms/hands. Maybe I'm off on the measurements.

Pictures used:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/celtics/photos/heinsohn-hook-shot300400.jpg
http://brendanmarshall929.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/nba1957-celtics-russellmeek.jpg
http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/w500/pict/380674288073_/Bob-Cousy-2-8x10-Unsigned-Photo-Boston.jpg

[32jazz]

^^^

No problem . The posts of Cavalierftw, Jlauber,Psileas ,etc... about the 60's era my absolute favorite whenever I get the time to log in.

Keep it up :cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

Sorry for the bump, but I may have found some other late 50s/early 60s player's wingspans. What I did was use "pixel stick" to calculate the length of the outstretched arm, ball, and chest. Then I multiplied arm x 2, added chest length, and divided that sum by the ball length. Then I multiplied this number by 9 (since the ball is 9 inches long.) It sounds really complicated but it was actually rather simple.

None of this exact science, and obviously many of the measurements may be wrong. I give a interval of (-1, +1.5) to either add or subtract from the number I find for the exact length but I did measure Russell's to check validity.

Cliff Hagan:
Height: 6'4
Wingspan: 6'4.2

Bill Russell:
Height: 6'10
Wingspan: 7'3.6

John Havlicek:
Height: 6'5
Wingspan: 6'7.5

Tom Heinsohn
Height: 6'7
Wingspan: 6'9.1

Bob Cousy:
Height: 6'1
Wingspan: 6'3.5

^ Cousy's shocked me the most, since players from the time talk about how he had such long arms/hands. Maybe I'm off on the measurements.

Pictures used:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/celtics/photos/heinsohn-hook-shot300400.jpg
http://brendanmarshall929.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/nba1957-celtics-russellmeek.jpg
http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/w500/pict/380674288073_/Bob-Cousy-2-8x10-Unsigned-Photo-Boston.jpg
I don't want to dismiss your effort, but the numbers you've extrapolated can not be accurate for numerous reasons. Starting with the fact that a ball is not 9 inches around. And the human skeleton is flexible and standing in any posture other than spread eagle won't be able to net you a measurable wingspan. Even if you had snapshots of all the guys with their arms stretched out perfectly, I've learned even that isn't accurate to estimate a wingspan due to the nature of different focal lengths on camera lenses. The only thing you can do is go by something that was measured in person. If a players height, weight, or wingspan wasn't measured than truthfully these things can only be treated as unkown variables.

You should try your method with at least 5 different photographs of a single player who has been precisely measured before if you think I'm wrong. See how many different numbers you end up with. If you end up with a consistent result, then you may be on to something, otherwise I've done this before and I've only gotten inconsistent unreliable results.

[TheTenth]

I don't want to dismiss your effort, but the numbers you've extrapolated can not be accurate for numerous reasons. Starting with the fact that a ball is not 9 inches around. And the human skeleton is flexible and standing in any posture other than spread eagle won't be able to net you a wingspan estimate anyways. Even if you had snapshots of all the guys with their arms stretched out, I've learned even that isn't accurate to estimate a wingspan due to the different focal lengths of camera lenses. The only thing you can do is go by something that was measured in person.
Oh no, that is what I am looking for. I don't think my measurements are valid either, and in fact I was just looking for a reference point that might make sense. I think I pm'd you on this once, and never having a response I decided to try it out on my own and see what I came up with. I'd figure that a rough estimate would still be useful to people on this site though.

But the 9 inch mark, I believe I got from you on your "Kevin McHale Wingspan" photo. Or do you not believe that you had an accurate measurement for him? ...I mean it's definitely not the 8'0 wingspan that people have claimed.

Either way, I'm really curious about this because I want to know if other star players in this time had the ridiculous wingspan over height ratio that today's players do. If anyone has some info on guys like Cousy, Pettit, Sharman, Ramsey, Lovellette, Sanders, Jones, etc. it would be much appreciated.

Btw, I have found one of Vern Mikkelsen in high school with the "spread eagle with two balls palmed" but I don't know how interested in 50s players you are.


You should try your method with at least 5 different photographs of a single player who has been precisely measured before if you think I'm wrong. See how many different numbers you end up with. If you end up with a consistent result, then you may be on to something, otherwise I've done this before and I've only gotten inconsistent unreliable results.
I agree, the problem is finding these photos. I have found maybe 3 for Cousy, 2 for Havlicek, but everyone else it seems like there is only 1.

[CavaliersFTW]

Oh no, that is what I am looking for. I don't think my measurements are valid either, and in fact I was just looking for a reference point that might make sense. I think I pm'd you on this once, and never having a response I decided to try it out on my own and see what I came up with. I'd figure that a rough estimate would still be useful to people on this site though.

But the 9 inch mark, I believe I got from you on your "Kevin McHale Wingspan" photo. Or do you not believe that you had an accurate measurement for him? ...I mean it's definitely not the 8'0 wingspan that people have claimed.

Either way, I'm really curious about this because I want to know if other star players in this time had the ridiculous wingspan over height ratio that today's players do. If anyone has some info on guys like Cousy, Pettit, Sharman, Ramsey, Lovellette, Sanders, Jones, etc. it would be much appreciated.

Btw, I have found one of Vern Mikkelsen in high school with the "spread eagle with two balls palmed" but I don't know how interested in 50s players you are.


I agree, the problem is finding these photos. I have found maybe 3 for Cousy, 2 for Havlicek, but everyone else it seems like there is only 1.

Do it with Blake Griffin - I won't tell you his wingspan - and whatever you do don't look it up! Approach it being clueless, and see what you come up with. If you get 5 relatively consistent numbers and they match up with what his actual wingspan measured then your on to something - if not than you'll know it won't work. It's better than trusting the method w/o any evidence that supports that it works. If I was to guess, I would guess that it doesn't work for my aforementioned reasons - and I've also tried this before with about 3 pics and got nothing consistent. But who knows your methods could be different and its worth testing if you've got the time.

[TheTenth]

Do it with Blake Griffin - I won't tell you his wingspan - and whatever you do don't look it up! Approach it being clueless, and see what you come up with. If you get 5 relatively consistent numbers and they match up with what his actual wingspan measured then your on to something - if not than you'll know it won't work. It's better than trusting the method w/o any evidence that supports that it works. If I was to guess, I would guess that it doesn't work for my aforementioned reasons - and I've also tried this before with about 3 pics and got nothing consistent. But who knows your methods could be different and its worth testing if you've got the time.
I already knew Blake Griffins. I'll pick someone else and come back though. You are probably correct in that it is not very valid or reliable. Most of all I was hoping if I dedicated a little time into deducing it with my own means, it might get someone's attention with access to some newspaper archives or information to things not posted yet and they would respond with "Bob Cousy actually had x wingspan" or something. But I'll try and dedicate some time into the reliability of my test.


Bob Cousy had excellent peripheral vision and large hands which we now know is good for point guards - allegedly he also had a good enough vertical that at 6'1 he could still get up and dunk though I haven't seen this on film.

Where did you get this information that Bob Cousy could dunk? Do you have a link? Because I read somewhere that Cousy/Sharman had difficulty touching rim and that was how they deciphered that the rim was too low in the 1957 finals game that led to Kerner punching Auerbach. This of course makes little sense because Wilt had Sharman on his list of best atheletes, but then again Wilt was known to be a "contrarian." I would really appreciate the source on this!

Btw, I remember when searching for Blake Griffin's wingspan a while back I came across these photos, maybe they will give someone a laugh.

http://hoopspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AjZ4Vs_CMAA4_mc.jpeg

http://www.thefunkylocker.com/images/rajon-rondo-wingspan.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

I already knew Blake Griffins. I'll pick someone else and come back though. You are probably correct in that it is not very valid or reliable. Most of all I was hoping if I dedicated a little time into deducing it with my own means, it might get someone's attention with access to some newspaper archives or information to things not posted yet and they would respond with "Bob Cousy actually had x wingspan" or something. But I'll try and dedicate some time into the reliability of my test.


Where did you get this information that Bob Cousy could dunk? Do you have a link? Because I read somewhere that Cousy/Sharman had difficulty touching rim and that was how they deciphered that the rim was too low in the 1957 finals game that led to Kerner punching Auerbach. This of course makes little sense because Wilt had Sharman on his list of best atheletes, but then again Wilt was known to be a "contrarian." I would really appreciate the source on this!

Btw, I remember when searching for Blake Griffin's wingspan a while back I came across these photos, maybe they will give someone a laugh.

http://hoopspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AjZ4Vs_CMAA4_mc.jpeg

http://www.thefunkylocker.com/images/rajon-rondo-wingspan.jpg
I look all the time on Google News Archives - that's how I found Jerry West's, Elvin Hayes, Kareem's etc etc. Some players have had numbers printed, but I'm willing to be 90% weren't even measured and of the ones that were, 90 percent of those guys probably never had it printed in an article about themselves

[TheTenth]

I look all the time on Google News Archives - that's how I found Jerry West's, Elvin Hayes, Kareem's etc etc. Some players have had numbers printed, but I'm willing to be 90% weren't even measured and of the ones that were, 90 percent of those guys probably never had it printed in an article about themselves
Ok I will see what I can do.
What about Bob Cousy being able to dunk? Where did you get that information? Sorry, it's my last question, I promise. :lol

[RRR3]

http://hoopspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AjZ4Vs_CMAA4_mc.jpeg


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

Ok I will see what I can do.
What about Bob Cousy being able to dunk? Where did you get that information? Sorry, it's my last question, I promise. :lol
Only heard it from an old fan of the game - don't remember where he heard it so just treat it as hear say as I/he could be mistaken.

[Mass Debator]

Stan Okoye was measured 6'3" barefoot with a 7'2" wingspan. (undrafted)

[Round Mound]

http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=415663

"I think wingspan is every bit as important, maybe way more important than your height," said Minnesota Vice President of Basketball Operations Kevin McHale, who had an 8-foot wingspan in his day. "You've seen those guys that are 6-11, and they've got those pterodactyl arms. Those guys, they don't do too well."

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1981/0511_large.jpg

[LongLiveTheKing]

D-Wade is better.

[iamgine]

Stan Okoye was measured 6'3" barefoot with a 7'2" wingspan. (undrafted)
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics32/400/FG/FGBSXCEGLSSGRGY.20130101110953.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=415663

"I think wingspan is every bit as important, maybe way more important than your height," said Minnesota Vice President of Basketball Operations Kevin McHale, who had an 8-foot wingspan in his day. "You've seen those guys that are 6-11, and they've got those pterodactyl arms. Those guys, they don't do too well."

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1981/0511_large.jpg

Excellent post.

Take a look at the 7-2 Sampson. VERY short arms. I suspect that there were at least a few players in the league at the time that had a higher standing reach than Sampson.

[avonbarksdale]

ur the worst poster on this site

[avonbarksdale]

literally no one cares how long people arms are who played in other era's, i would rather see more kobe vs lebron threads

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=415663

"I think wingspan is every bit as important, maybe way more important than your height," said Minnesota Vice President of Basketball Operations Kevin McHale, who had an 8-foot wingspan in his day. "You've seen those guys that are 6-11, and they've got those pterodactyl arms. Those guys, they don't do too well."

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1981/0511_large.jpg
His wingspan was 7-3 or 7-4 it's been a while since I researched so now I can't quite remember which of the two it was but it certainly is not even close to 8 feet, that is a myth. Patrick Ewing and Wilt Chamberlain were also some of the players labeled with the mythic "8 foot wingspan" but it's all a myth.

[CavaliersFTW]

Excellent post.

Take a look at the 7-2 Sampson. VERY short arms. I suspect that there were at least a few players in the league at the time that had a higher standing reach than Sampson.
Sampson does not have very short arms. Sampson had a 7-4 wingspan. He stood approximately 7-1 inch tall (not anywhere close to his 7-4 list info). It isn't a spectacular wingspan for that height but it isn't bad either.

[travelingman]

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kyle-Hines-513/

http://www.yazihaneden.com/wp-content/uploads/kyle-hines.jpg

Nearly 6'4 with a 7ft 1 wingspan and a 8' 6.5" reach

I remember this guy from his college days at UNC Greensboro! He was vastly underrated.

[Round Mound]

[B]Sampson was More like 7

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Sampson was More like 7

[Round Mound]

Sorry but he just isn't - Mark Eaton is 7-3.75 w/o shoes and there is an interview with him and Chick Hearn and Chick asks him about what it's like facing the other 7-4 guy in the league (Sampson) and he proceeds to tell Chick that he's actually only 7-3 and 3/4 not quite 7-4 and secondly that Sampson is nowhere near 7-4. Chick asks him about how tall he thinks Sampson is and he replies "about 7-1". No matter how tall Sampson looks to you Eaton - a guy who is genuinely nearly 7-4 saw him up close and in person and was being genuinely honest in the interview. Look at the Red on Roundball videos with Sampson in them standing next to the Celtics center Robert Parish. Parish was no more than 7-0 w/o shoes and they look almost identical in height - Sampson looking only about an inch taller - which goes along with what Eaton said. Also Sampson is not taller than Jabbar - that photograph is misleading - look at a dozen photographs with him and Jabbar and you'll see more times than not he appears shorter than Jabbar.

[B]From the 1986 NBA Finals DVD I Have Sampson Does Close to Jabbar. He is Probably Not 7

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]From the 1986 NBA Finals DVD I Have Sampson Does Look Taller Than Jabbar. He is Probably Not 7

[Round Mound]

Sit down height is totally different than standing height.... Jerry West sits as tall as Wilt Chamberlain in photographs, but he's nowhere near as tall - because Chamberlain was so long in the limbs. Torso length determines sitdown height, not overall height. Different people have different length torsos. And again, he isn't taller than Kareem:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2P2E66CUAAuz31.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzZjAohZlPM

Sampson and Parish... nowhere near 4 inches in height difference

[B]I See...Well Still Things He Did at 7

[TheTenth]

Those 8 ft wingspan claims for McHale. :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]I See...Well Still Things He Did at 7

[pudman13]

Jerry West at 6'3 could dunk

I believe he recently stated that he's actually 6'4 1/2"

In any case: This is him dunking at 5:08, right? Is that the only in-game NBA dunk of his that exists on film?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr2Phq6KlYA

[Cocaine80s]

A 6'9 wingspan is average for a 6'4 black male

[stalkerforlife]

West is the 3rd best SG of all time in ANY era.

[CavaliersFTW]

West is the 3rd best SG of all time in ANY era.
:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

A 6'9 wingspan is average for a 6'4 black male
pretty unusual to have it as a blindingly quick white guy tho

[Cocaine80s]

pretty unusual to have it as a blindingly quick white guy tho
Yea I think most white and asians have wingspan the same or slightly longer than their height. Black people usually have a few more inches for some reason

[CavaliersFTW]

Yea I think most white and asians have wingspan the same or slightly longer than their height. Black people usually have a few more inches for some reason
Geographic ancestry. In nature "species" that live closer to hot climates/equilateral regions have longer limbs for thermoregulation, where as the colder the climate there is generally shorter limbs and extremities. This phenomena is just as true in humans as it is in say, wolves, deer, or any other wide ranging species this is observable in. Inuit peoples for example have relatively short stocky arms and legs, just like arctic wolves. It's just a helpful adaptation to the climate, you tend not to die young from frost bite wounds when your limbs are short and thick. Inversely, if you have a very long lean frame you tend not to die of heat exhaustion during the dry season in the open savanna. Over 10s of thousands of years a gradual shift in physical traits among populations happens. The differences in humans are subtle, an untrained eye wouldn't see it or care, but it's there. Relatively longer limbs in the 20th and 21st century have developed an unanticipated secondary benefit... they help in sports where long reach is beneficial, such as basketball.

Inb4 someone claims this is racist and unscientific.

[dubeta]

Yea I think most white and asians have wingspan the same or slightly longer than their height. Black people usually have a few more inches for some reason

they always have a few more inches...

[CavaliersFTW]

they always have a few more inches...
No, it's a population trend. There can be people from any geographic region with long arms or short arms. But the frequency changes of how often people tend to have longer or shorter limbs depending on how their ancestors adapted to their geography. It isn't even cut and dry about "blacks/whites/asians". There are certain areas in Africa or Europe or Asia where people have longer or shorter limbs even compared to other "Black / White / Asians". There are many different types of ancestral groups of people on this planet. Something like several hundred in Africa and at least 40 more over the rest of the world with lots of mixture (there's more genetic diversity in Africa because it's where our species evolved)

[Eric Cartman]

they always have a few more inches...

How would you know?

****** :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

I see I just got trolled

[oarabbus]

Geographic ancestry. In nature "species" that live closer to hot climates/equilateral regions have longer limbs for thermoregulation, where as the colder the climate there is generally shorter limbs and extremities. This phenomena is just as true in humans as it is in say, wolves, deer, or any other wide ranging species this is observable in. Inuit peoples for example have relatively short stocky arms and legs, just like arctic wolves. It's just a helpful adaptation to the climate, you tend not to die young from frost bite wounds when your limbs are short and thick. Inversely, if you have a very long lean frame you tend not to die of heat exhaustion during the dry season in the open savanna. Over 10s of thousands of years a gradual shift in physical traits among populations happens. The differences in humans are subtle, an untrained eye wouldn't see it or care, but it's there. Relatively longer limbs in the 20th and 21st century have developed an unanticipated secondary benefit... they help in sports where long reach is beneficial, such as basketball.

Inb4 someone claims this is racist and unscientific.

I don't disagree with the anthro/bio here... but what about Indians? (From India) or Hispanics, Middle Easterners, or other Southeast Asians where the climate is just as hot as Africa? You'd think they'd have very long limbs as well.

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't disagree with the anthro/bio here... but what about Indians? (From India) or Hispanics, Middle Easterners, or other Southeast Asians where the climate is just as hot as Africa? You'd think they'd have very long limbs as well.
Might have something to do with recent ice age effecting those regions and thus recent ancestry with established cold climate populations. Also, all non-Africans have 2-4% Neanderthal DNA and some peoples have an additional mixture of up to 6% with another established cold climate species called Denisovans. This means that all humans that journeyed out of Africa and survived had a couple affairs with some short stocky limbed Neanderthals. I think though there just has not have been enough time that has passed for say, native people of Mexico to have long limb ratios reflected in their population particularly after their ancestors had only just crossed over Siberia to Alaska in the middle of the ice age (14,000 years ago) to get there. Where as people of Africa have been in a relatively warm stable climate for a few hundred thousand years.