Scottie Pippen Or Kevin Garnett: Who Would You Rather Build Around

[SilkkTheShocker]

Say you have the choice to take one of them to build around. Which gives the best chance to win a championship one day?

[stallionaire]

Garnett, easily. Great motor, long defensive rebounder who was good from mid and in post. Passionate as hell. Raw, nrver gave up. His physique is rare too we may not see a guy like him for a while.

[bwink23]

KG...always start with a great big man.

[Kews1]

The Big Ticket

[TheMan]

Can't go wrong with either...my brain says KG, the homer in me says Pip, plus he's my avi:lol

In b4 those who say Pip never won a ship without MJ, I counter, KG never won without Pierce, Ray Ray and Rondo, so there!

[Xiao Yao You]

KG without a doubt.

[Gabuyaux]

KG, no-brainer

[Inactive]

KG. They were both good at everything, but when all else is equal, I'd go with the bigger guy, to build around. I think KG had better leadership qualities, and first option mentality, as well.

[tmacattack33]

This wasn't very hard at all.

KG is someone who likely would have been a top 10 or at least 15 player if he had a team in Minnesota.

Pippen is someone who may not have been given nearly the amount of attention and credit he got if he didn't play next to MJ.

[Kews1]

KG is someone who likely would have been a top 10 or at least 15 player if he had a team in Minnesota.

.

This :applause:

[97 bulls]

I would not choose Garnett over Pippen. I remember Garnett running from the big moments. At least Pippen wanted to take big shots

[Lebron23]

Kevin Garnett

He's a 1x NBA MVP, former Defensive Player of the year, and the Celtics best player in the 2008 NBA Finals.

[outbreak]

KG
Pippen is great and all but kg has a better skill set to build a team around.

What about Kobe or Shaq if you had the choice?
Or duncan or kg?

[305Baller]

Garnett

[ballerz]

The big ticket

[SwooshReturns]

Kevin Garnett ... easily. This isn't even a competition.

[nycelt84]

KG

[jlip]

I'm sorry. This is closer than what many people are saying. There just seems to be this perpetual "Pippen is only a 2nd option" mentality in many people's minds because of his role playing along side MJ. Truth be told I can only think of 2-3 players in NBA history who would not be 2nd options if they had played with MJ in their prime, and they are dominant big men. Pippen should not get penalized for what 99% of the players in the NBA would have been had they been in the same position.

Having said that, you basically have two individuals who are basically the same players but different positions. There are very few sfs who were as versatile and good all around as Pippen was, and there are very few pfs who were as versatile and good all around as prime KG was. If I were forced to choose, I would probably go with KG just because he is 7'0" tall, but I could easily go with Pippen. I'm on the fence like Mike Greenberg here. "I feel very strongly both ways."

[Bernie Nips]

I would not choose Garnett over Pippen. I remember Garnett running from the big moments. At least Pippen wanted to take big shots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puj2HzfXXM8

When will this myth die...

[Jotaro Durant]

garnett no hesitation not sure if serious:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheNaturalWR]

Garnett and it's not even close...at all.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

How about a team with kg as option one and pipped option two.

[Jotaro Durant]

How about a team with kg as option one and pipped option two.
the defense would be:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Xiao Yao You]

Pippen should not get penalized for what 99% of the players in the NBA would have been had they been in the same position.
[/B][/I]"

He shouldn't get overrated for riding his coattails to 6 rings, the Dream Team, top 50 all-time and the HOF either. KG would have been one of the greats ever regardless of who he played for/with and when he played. Pippen I'm not convinced of that.

[Inactive]

He shouldn't get overrated for riding his coattails to 6 rings, the Dream Team, top 50 all-time and the HOF either. KG would have been one of the greats ever regardless of who he played for/with and when he played. Pippen I'm not convinced of that.In his 2 seasons without MJ, Pippen put up 21.7/8.4/5.4/3/1 .485/.335. Very versatile, and an all time great perimeter defender. He definitely gets more attention than other players of his caliber, because he played with MJ. I don't think he's really overrated though.

[Xiao Yao You]

In his 2 seasons without MJ, Pippen put up 21.7/8.4/5.4/3/1 .485/.335. Very versatile, and an all time great perimeter defender.

He was in a great situation. How many teams would have allowed a 6'8" SF to run the point? Defensively he was best at filling lanes and offensively on the run.

[Collie]

Both great players, but KG's ability to anchor the defense rates higher for me than Pippen's excellent perimeter defense.

[Smoke117]

In his 2 seasons without MJ, Pippen put up 21.7/8.4/5.4/3/1 .485/.335. Very versatile, and an all time great perimeter defender. He definitely gets more attention than other players of his caliber, because he played with MJ. I don't think he's really overrated though.

It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure he was actually averaging slightly more points in 95 than in 94. The scoring went down a bit when Jordan returned obviously.

[jlip]

He shouldn't get overrated for riding his coattails to 6 rings, the Dream Team, top 50 all-time and the HOF either. KG would have been one of the greats ever regardless of who he played for/with and when he played. Pippen I'm not convinced of that.

:facepalm

[Smoke117]

He was in a great situation. How many teams would have allowed a 6'8" SF to run the point? Defensively he was best at filling lanes and offensively on the run.


More important question, how many could? Pippen came into the league with the ability to play pg. On his draft night when he was interviewed he said how he expected to start at forward and move to pg. He played pg for the Blazers even. Starting at pg not playing as a point forward. He was their starting pg in 2003 when he averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36. It's not hard to imagine what he could have done if he was in his prime. The triangle had no true pg though, Pippen just brought the ball up at the top and was their best play maker. Either way Pippen could have done a lot more damage offensively if he had played in an up tempo offense. That was clearly his best asset as an offensive player. He could get from one end to the other faster than almost anyone, he could handle the ball, he could pass, and he could finish with the best of them. I never understood by people think he would do worse on another team when the Bulls offense wasn't even geared toward what he did best offensively.

[Xiao Yao You]

Pippen came into the league with the ability to play pg.

But most teams would have played him at the 3.


He played pg for the Blazers even.

He had already proven it at that point. He could write his own ticket.


The triangle had no true pg though, Pippen just brought the ball up at the top and was their best play maker.

No it didn't. It was perfect for him and Jordan and Kerr and Fisher and so on and so on.


Pippen could have done a lot more damage offensively if he had played in an up tempo offense. That was clearly his best asset as an offensive player. He could get from one end to the other faster than almost anyone, he could handle the ball, he could pass, and he could finish with the best of them.

Agreed.


I never understood by people think he would do worse on another team when the Bulls offense wasn't even geared toward what he did best offensively.

In a lot of ways it was geared towards him to best succeed. The ball wouldn't have been in his hands for most teams. It would have been in Paxson's or BJ's.

[97 bulls]

It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure he was actually averaging slightly more points in 95 than in 94. The scoring went down a bit when Jordan returned obviously.
He was pushing 23-24

[TheCorporation]

Kevin Garnet, easily.

[jlip]

It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure he was actually averaging slightly more points in 95 than in 94. The scoring went down a bit when Jordan returned obviously.


He was pushing 23-24

Unless my calculations are off, he was avg. 21.9 ppg before MJ returned which is basically right where he was in '94.

[97 bulls]

More important question, how many could? Pippen came into the league with the ability to play pg. On his draft night when he was interviewed he said how he expected to start at forward and move to pg. He played pg for the Blazers even. Starting at pg not playing as a point forward. He was their starting pg in 2003 when he averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36. It's not hard to imagine what he could have done if he was in his prime. The triangle had no true pg though, Pippen just brought the ball up at the top and was their best play maker. Either way Pippen could have done a lot more damage offensively if he had played in an up tempo offense. That was clearly his best asset as an offensive player. He could get from one end to the other faster than almost anyone, he could handle the ball, he could pass, and he could finish with the best of them. I never understood by people think he would do worse on another team when the Bulls offense wasn't even geared toward what he did best offensively.
I agree. There's no doubt that had pippin been in a freer system, he wouldve avg more assists.

[bizil]

Gotta roll with KG on this one. Both guys are revolutionary players who rank high on the GOAT list for their respective positions. However, their has NEVER been a 7 footer remotely close to KG. KG could D up four positions and has a point forward type skillset. But KG was a great rebounder who used to lead the L in boards on multiple occasions. With KG at his best, u r getting a statline of 24 points, 14 boards, and 6 assists a night. U get that along with the best defense in the L for a power forward along with a Duncan.

When u factor defense, Pip was the best all around small forward of all time in my book. Yes even over Bird. I feel Lebron has now taken that mantle from Pippen though. Pip was the ultimate swiss army knife who has arguably the best perimeter defense of all time, redefined the SF position, and could get u 23 points a night. But both guys as total packages on both ends of the court are as good as it gets at their positions.

[Xiao Yao You]

There's no doubt that had pippin been in a freer system, he wouldve avg more assists.

There's plenty of doubt. He might not have had the ball in his hands and he wouldn't have had the greatest scorer of his time to dish to.

[Smoke117]

There's plenty of doubt. He might not have had the ball in his hands and he wouldn't have had the greatest scorer of his time to dish to.


He averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36 after multiple injuries and a lot of minutes played on the Blazers. That's bullshit to bring up Jordan as far as assist goes.

[$LakerGold]

Def Kg.

[LockoutOver11]

neither, they command big money... and need another elite piece to win it all.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was pushing 23-24

Err, no. Pippen averaged 21.9 ppg before MJ returned in 1995.

[get these NETS]

scottie pippen

for people who say they are comparable, somewhat..
if they were the same height, pippen's better skillset would be more obvious

had actual pg level skills, sg skills, sf skills for an entire game

could defend all three positions at all nba level for an entire game


kg is versatile, and he can dribble for a big man but he's a forward...sf/pf
decent center with size abuses kg for an entire game....and kg can play down low but not a bonafide center


both are obviously not alpha male players but pip is the better piece to start with...equivalent of a 5 tool baseball player

[unbreakable]

He averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36 after multiple injuries and a lot of minutes played on the Blazers. That's bullshit to bring up Jordan as far as assist goes.

ETHER. fukk that dude who dont know about pippens playmaking ability. :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

That's bullshit to bring up Jordan as far as assist goes.

It is? I'd say that it's a valid point when you want to contend that he'd get even more assists without the greatest scorer of the time to go to.


equivalent of a 5 tool baseball player

He was at best a streaky shooter. He wasn't a great half court player and defensively he was best filling passing lanes. KG had the whole package other than being too unselfish.

[97 bulls]

It is? I'd say that it's a valid point when you want to contend that he'd get even more assists without the greatest scorer of the time to go to.



He was at best a streaky shooter. He wasn't a great half court player and defensively he was best filling passing lanes. KG had the whole package other than being too unselfish.
Its obvious you ve never really watched pippen. Or the bulls for that matter. Pippen rarely got his assists off passes to Jordan. Jordan got a large portion of his points off isos and in the post. Not through pippen setting him up. And still pippen was a great distributor. On the dream team, pippen shared PG duties with magic Johnson. He led that team in assists. He has the most assists for a forward. As was said earlier, he avg 6 assists as a 36year old PG. He just didnt dominate the ball like most players. Phil Jackson implemented the triangle in an effort to stop or keep players from domimating the ball

[Xiao Yao You]

On the dream team, pippen shared PG duties with magic Johnson. He led that team in assists.

You really going to go there? I would have looked good playing with those guys. Stockton was hurt and Pippen shouldn't have been on the team in the first place.


He has the most assists for a forward. As was said earlier, he avg 6 assists as a 36year old PG. He just didnt dominate the ball like most players. Phil Jackson implemented the triangle in an effort to stop or keep players from domimating the ball

Yes and how would he have done if he hadn't started his career with the Bulls and not had the ball in his hands? That's what I've ben getting at. He was fortunate to be put in the situation he was in the triangle with MJ and Phil.

[TAZORAC]

Say you have the choice to take one of them to build around. Which gives the best chance to win a championship one day?

Garnett easy and it's not even competition.

[97 bulls]

You really going to go there? I would have looked good playing with those guys. Stockton was hurt and Pippen shouldn't have been on the team in the first place.



Yes and how would he have done if he hadn't started his career with the Bulls and not had the ball in his hands? That's what I've ben getting at. He was fortunate to be put in the situation he was in the triangle with MJ and Phil.
Its no secret that the triangle offense stressed team ball. I just dont see where your getting at.

Ok how bout this, tell me an offense that you can think of in which would hinder pippen and his skillset. As a PG mind you

[bdreason]

KG.

[Xiao Yao You]

Ok how bout this, tell me an offense that you can think of in which would hinder pippen and his skillset. As a PG mind you

I never said he would hindered by a system or that he couldn't play pg. It was said that no doubt he would have racked up more assists playing in a more up tempo system. I think there is doubt. It's assumed he would have had the ball in his hands if he hadn't first played for Phil in the triangle. Why when only one other guy his size had before?

[iDefend5]

Post as many numbers as you like, the answer always has been and always will be KG.

[Bigsmoke]

KG

[guy]

Pippen's stats without Jordan were barely that much better then what they were with Jordan. Not sure why people act like Jordan held back Pippen's game.

[get these NETS]

people who picked KG


what are 3 things that he can do that Pip cannot do?

[brahmabull117]

people who picked KG


what are 3 things that he can do that Pip cannot do?


Great interior defenders are always much, much more valuable than a very good perimeter defender - KG's defensive impact is much more significant on a team than just having a very good defensive SF like Pip


offensively they're pretty close, but a dominating interior defender and rebounder will always have more value to me than a great wing player when the offensive value is so close.




<<bulls homer as well

[rodman91]

Garnett.

[97 bulls]

Great interior defenders are always much, much more valuable than a very good perimeter defender - KG's defensive impact is much more significant on a team than just having a very good defensive SF like Pip


offensively they're pretty close, but a dominating interior defender and rebounder will always have more value to me than a great wing player when the offensive value is so close.




<<bulls homer as well
Pippens defense was every bit as dominant as Garnetts. Just compare pippens 95 seasson. And Garnett 08 season. Pippens was more impressive

[pauk]

i dont find KG attractive... so i would go with PIPPER!

http://s.bravo.pl/download/multimedia/pictures/0808/pic136341082417501733486726.jpg

[brahmabull117]

Pippens defense was every bit as dominant as Garnetts. Just compare pippens 95 seasson. And Garnett 08 season. Pippens was more impressive


In terms of overall defensive impact on a team, power forward/center >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small forward


As much as people want to rave about Lebron's defense, there's no way in hell you can argue he makes the same impact on a team's overall defense as Dwight Howard

[97 bulls]

people who picked KG


what are 3 things that he can do that Pip cannot do?
True. Garnett not even as good in the post as pippens. Pippens also gonna run your offense too

[guy]

people who picked KG


what are 3 things that he can do that Pip cannot do?

Better scorer, rebounder, FT shooter, interior defender and shotblocker.

[get these NETS]

In terms of overall defensive impact on a team, power forward/center >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small forward


As much as people want to rave about Lebron's defense, there's no way in hell you can argue he makes the same impact on a team's overall defense as Dwight Howard


used wrong examples


dwight STILL gets called for fouls when tries to block driving players

has terrible defensive instincts...


in modern nba ...best players are perimeter players..so you can make a case for a lebron being more important to winning a ring than a howard....

[Teanett]

pippen of course.

[FireDavidKahn]

Is this seriously even up for debate?:lol

KG and it's not even close.

[brahmabull117]

used wrong examples


dwight STILL gets called for fouls when tries to block driving players

has terrible defensive instincts...


in modern nba ...best players are perimeter players..so you can make a case for a lebron being more important to winning a ring than a howard....


Lebron is a much better offensive player than Dwight though. Garnett and KG are about the same as offensive players


If you gave me a choice between a SF with great defense but only averaged about 20 PPG like dwight, I would take Dwight over him by a huge margin


A great defensive big man can make a huge impact to the culture of your team

[get these NETS]

Better scorer, rebounder, FT shooter, interior defender and shotblocker.


pippen is the modern day mold for great all around players.....kg is a taller, less skilled version of pip

better scorer-no....my perception is about even...

better rebounder....kg is a great rebounder for his position....pip is about average for a sf

interior defender...yes...7 footer is better interior defender than pip


shotblocker....yes 7 footer who plays 3-4 is better shotblocker than pip



basically all the attributes you give edge to kg is because of height advantage ......only legit one is rebounding which kg is exceptional at, height or no height

[brahmabull117]

pippen is the modern day mold for great all around players.....kg is a taller, less skilled version of pip

better scorer-no....my perception is about even...

better rebounder....kg is a great rebounder for his position....pip is about average for a sf

interior defender...yes...7 footer is better interior defender than pip


shotblocker....yes 7 footer who plays 3-4 is better shotblocker than pip



basically all the attributes you give edge to kg is because of height advantage ......only legit one is rebounding which kg is exceptional at, height or no height



you act like height is not a huge difference maker


KG transformed the defensive culture of the celtics when he went over there. Small forwards are not capable of doing that

[guy]

pippen is the modern day mold for great all around players.....kg is a taller, less skilled version of pip

better scorer-no....my perception is about even...

better rebounder....kg is a great rebounder for his position....pip is about average for a sf

interior defender...yes...7 footer is better interior defender than pip


shotblocker....yes 7 footer who plays 3-4 is better shotblocker than pip



basically all the attributes you give edge to kg is because of height advantage ......only legit one is rebounding which kg is exceptional at, height or no height

KG is definitely a better scorer.

I could care less if KG is only better at those things due to height. Most NBA players would not be in the league if they were normal height. Maybe the only reason Kobe is better then Iverson is cause of height. That doesnt' mean he's not better then him though. We are not position-adjusting or height-adjusting anything.

[get these NETS]

you act like height is not a huge difference maker


KG transformed the defensive culture of the celtics when he went over there. Small forwards are not capable of doing that


the dpoy award was basically CREATED because of a small forward


Sidney Moncrief

and he played in the same league as some really dominant centers






CHECK PLEASE

[get these NETS]

KG is definitely a better scorer.

I could care less if KG is only better at those things due to height. Most NBA players would not be in the league if they were normal height. Maybe the only reason Kobe is better then Iverson is cause of height. That doesnt' mean he's not better then him though. We are not position-adjusting or height-adjusting anything.


Pippen is better ball handler, perimeter man defender,perimeter help defender playmaker,

[jlip]

Actually, Moncrief was a guard. But Pippen was indeed a sf who was capable of changing a team's culture with his defense. He impacted entire playoff series with just his defense.

[FireDavidKahn]

Pippen is better ball handler, perimeter man defender,perimeter help defender playmaker,
And despite all this, KG is the more versatile defender and better defender over all.

[get these NETS]

Actually, Moncrief was a guard. But Pippen was indeed a sf who was capable of changing a team's culture with his defense. He impacted entire playoff series with just his defense.


those don nelson teams...positions are interchangeble



always thought of moncrief as a swingman and more of a sf

[Teanett]

And despite all this, KG is the more versatile defender and better defender over all.
better? maybe
more versatile? definately not

[FireDavidKahn]

better? maybe
more versatile? definately not


KG could guard the 2-5 positions at an elite level in his prime.

[Teanett]

KG could guard the 2-5 positions at an elite level in his prime.
i'm not sure about the 2 and 5. i dont think i've ever seen him trying to fight through screens chasing reggie miller or jeff hornacek. nor did i ever see him matched up against the elite centers of the time.
i've seen pippen play effective defense against true point guards and power forwards.

[get these NETS]

Great interior defenders are always much, much more valuable than a very good perimeter defender - KG's defensive impact is much more significant on a team than just having a very good defensive SF like Pip


offensively they're pretty close, but a dominating interior defender and rebounder will always have more value to me than a great wing player when the offensive value is so close.




<<bulls homer as well

out of the best 5, 10,15,20 players in the league...in 2012....most of them are perimeter players..maybe 80%+

dominating interior defender doesn't mean as much now as it did before...

pippen would be more valuable today than kg

[get these NETS]

KG could guard the 2-5 positions at an elite level in his prime.



scottie pippen

for people who say they are comparable, somewhat..
if they were the same height, pippen's better skillset would be more obvious

had actual pg level skills, sg skills, sf skills for an entire game

could defend all three positions at all nba level for an entire game


kg is versatile, and he can dribble for a big man but he's a forward...sf/pf
decent center with size abuses kg for an entire game....and kg can play down low but not a bonafide center


both are obviously not alpha male players but pip is the better piece to start with...equivalent of a 5 tool baseball player



kg being able to guard 2-5 or 1-5, or offensively play 1-5 is a huge myth

[bizil]

the dpoy award was basically CREATED because of a small forward


Sidney Moncrief

and he played in the same league as some really dominant centers






CHECK PLEASE

Sidney Moncrief was a SG not an SF. The SF's on those Bucks teams included Marques Johnson and Paul Pressey

[get these NETS]

Sidney Moncrief was a SG not an SF. The SF's on those Bucks teams included Marques Johnson and Paul Pressey

I was corrected on this a few posts back...and I immediately replied that under don nelson.....hard to determine what position anybody really played....I assumed moncrief was a small forward

sf was a LOADED position back in the day...and I'm thinking that moncrief drew the toughest defensive assignment...which was most likely a beast sf

[bizil]

KG could indeed guard some SG's. U gotta realize SG's range anywhere from 6'0 to damn near 6'9. Those guys in that 6'7 to 6'9 bracket in particular KG could D up if he had to. But at the same time KG is 7 foot and was at one time arguably the L's best rebounder. And he had a blend of athletic ablity and skill and that most PF's if ANY could match.

So KG's better off as a PF-SF type player. KG most likely couldn't D up a pure swingman type like a Kobe, Bowen, Battier, etc. But at 7 foot, KG is one of the FEW guys that size who could guard a swingman type very good. But once again, KG is better off as a PF-SF with point forward skills and beast rebounding and intensity.

KG could also guard some fives very good. Could KG protect the paint as good as centers or a PF like Duncan in terms of blocks, etc. NO! But in terms of being like a quarterback on defense on that baseline and in the paint, KG was still as good as it got.

And what sets KG apart from Pippen is the fact that there are players more similar to Pippen's skillset historically. Hondo was very, very similar to Pippen. Pippen added 6'7 height and Dr.J type athletic ability to that skillset. Bird and Barry both had point forward type skills in the halfcourt and could dominate a statline offensively and rebounding wise just as good or better than Pippen. Pippen just added lockdown defense and point guard handles to that. But when it comes to KG, there was NEVER a 7 footer like him.

So when people say what KG could do better than Pip need to think. KG was a 7 footer with freakish athletic ability, great defense, point forward skills, and still led the L in boards multiple years. And could get u 24 points a night on top of it. KG is just simply more unique than Pippen was. And was a more dominant player!

[bizil]

I was corrected on this a few posts back...and I immediately replied that under don nelson.....hard to determine what position anybody really played....I assumed moncrief was a small forward

sf was a LOADED position back in the day...and I'm thinking that moncrief drew the toughest defensive assignment...which was most likely a beast sf

No big deal! Moncrief was a great defender who did check many of the premier SF's of that day though. Moncrief could check PG, SG, and SF.

[Teanett]

KG could indeed guard some SG's. U gotta realize SG's range anywhere from 6'0 to damn near 6'9. Those guys in that 6'7 to 6'9 bracket in particular KG could D up if he had to.

reggie miller and rip hamilton are 6'7''. you think kg has a chance chasing them all over the court? it's not the size, it's the skill.
kg could guard an iso scorer guy like t-mac very well and play on top of a box and 1 but that's about it as far as him being able to guard guards on an elite level.
pippen on the other hand could guard any style of player effectively, except for big centers but kg himself was never strong enough to guard real centers.

[Smoke117]

Pippen's stats without Jordan were barely that much better then what they were with Jordan. Not sure why people act like Jordan held back Pippen's game.


I don't know why people bring this up. Phil has made it clear he didn't want Pippen taking 20+ shots and dominating the ball. That 94 Bulls played some of the best team ball ever. They actually slowed down the offense from the Jordan/Pippen days to make up for the fact that god damn Pete Myers replaced Jordan. That 94 team was all defense and grit. The coaching staff new they were not going to win when with Pippen jacking up shots. His best innate talent was his unselfishness and ability to get his team involved. He still never handled the ball as a true PG then. When he averaged his career high in assist in 92 that's because He was in his athletic prime and Jordan was just edging out of his. It was Wade and Lebron now, once Jordan and Pippen got o the break it was all over. Through the first threepeat I wouldn't really say he was a great half court player, but in 94 when MJ retired he workly worked on his game and became much more dangerous in the half court.

Don't get me wrong i would take KG because he's like a bigger, better version of Pippen without the ability to run the point or guard pg's and sg's Though I've always found Garnett overrated offensively. All he ever had was that turn around as far as skill move. When he was mobile and athletic as shit (people forget how athletic he was, besides David Robinson he's easily the most athletic 7 footer to come into the league over the last 30 years) he could get easy points then, but in general Pippen actually had a better post game. He had more moves, great foot work, and he was savvy down there. He just never really posted up that much since in the first threepeat they would always feed Cartwright just to make him happy and Jordan nor Pippen posted up much as they didn't really need to. They just went around everyone. Though in that 92 finals game 6 vs blazers when they went down big and it was Pippen and the scrubs he was working in the post bringing them back.

When I was speaking of an up tempo team which would have been best for Pippen's offensive gifts I always think of the 06 Suns. Shawn Marion averaged 21.8ppg on a .521%. You have to be hard pressed to tell me Pippen couldn't have replaced Marion and averaged 25ppg in that offense. The only thing Marion does better yjsm Pippen was rebound. Shawn Marion is TERRIBLE BALL HANDLER. He spotted up in the corner or he finished the break. Pippen could start the break, handle the ball, make the correct pass, and finish using his long arms or just brute strength. It's no surprise that when Pippen was in the 90s they called him the one man fast break...because once he took off he just went around everyone and dunked it or used his length put in a sweet lay up.

A more realistic idea that almost happened was when Kemp was almost traded for Pippen after the 94 season with the Sonics backing out probably because Scottie was 29 and Kemp 26. The Sonics played at a high tempo though and Pippen would have replaced Kemp easily on the break because of all the skills he had in the open court. Kemp was just a finisher. Frankly Kemp was lazy and foul prone and I don't see a Jordan/Kemp relationship working. Jordan and Pippen worked because they were the super stars of the team and they worked the hardest especially Pippen on defense. He probably should have taken it a bit easier for his bodies sake. It was like when he went to the Rockets and found out Charles was a lazy fat ass. Here's a guy used to putting it all on the court every day, so he became disenchanted...in the same way I see Jordan becoming disenchanted with Kemp. That would have been an interesting finals though if those teams managed to meet up. (with everyone healthy that is as Pippen was beat the shit out of in the 96 playoffs)

[Smoke117]

It is? I'd say that it's a valid point when you want to contend that he'd get even more assists without the greatest scorer of the time to go to.



He was at best a streaky shooter. He wasn't a great half court player and defensively he was best filling passing lanes. KG had the whole package other than being too unselfish.

No he wasn't, his greatest asset was a help defender...the same way KG works except he's bigger so he can block shots and protect the paint. In 97 and 98 Jerry Sloan was bitching about how Pippen was playing illegal defense because he was disrupting their pick and roll so much playing off of Byron Russell. He would just be all over the court. It was after that embarrassing 54 point performance the Jazz put up in the 98 finals that Phil called Scottie "a one man wrecking crew". Before he really screwed up his back taking that charge from Karl malone in game 5 he was the favorite to win FMVP for the defense he was playing and all around series he was having.

[bizil]

reggie miller and rip hamilton are 6'7''. you think kg has a chance chasing them all over the court? it's not the size, it's the skill.
kg could guard an iso scorer guy like t-mac very well and play on top of a box and 1 but that's about it as far as him being able to guard guards on an elite level.
pippen on the other hand could guard any style of player effectively, except for big centers but kg himself was never strong enough to guard real centers.

But the bottom line is KG could guard SG's like a T Mac very well! And u noticed I said SWINGMAN in my post. A guy who played plenty SG and SF. Guys like T Mac and Pierce were like that. Miller and Rip are more SG's instead of swingman type guys. And of top of that Mac and PP are CLEARLY BETTER PLAYERS AND MORE DANGEROUS THAN MILLER AND RIP EVER WERE! And yes I do think KG has a chance to chase Miller and Rip over the court. Hell guys Rip and Reggie's size have that trouble chasing them as it is. But KG had the athletic ability AND motor of a guy much smaller. That's what makes KG unique. Athletic ablity and motor wise, he was different from other PF's like Duncan, Malone, Dirk, Sheed, etc.

Pippen couldn't guard those big PF's 6'10 and up who were also very physical. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a Derrick Coleman or Shawn Kemp type of PF. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a McHale or Tim Duncan type of PF. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a 7'4 Ralph Sampson. Sure Pippen could guard a Dirk type of PF. Or an undersized PF like Barkley at times. But even a guy like Barkley would abuse Pippen with his blend of physicality and skill. Pippen didn't play bigger than his height defensively in the way say a Shawn Marion, or Rodman did. Marion and Rodman are MUCH more adept at guarding bigger PF's than Pippen ever was. And Artest and Bron as well cause both are as big and strong in terms of strength and weight of many PF's.

But yes technically Pippen can guard 1-4 just like KG in my book can guard 2-5. And if anything KG is 7'0 and at least has the height of a center. Pippen guarding a 6'10 to 7'4 PF (yes I said 7'4 cause Sampson was a PF and u said any player other than a real center) means he's giving up anywhere from 3 to 9 inches. But I concede, Pippen could guard many PF's well, but not the big or very tall physical ones.

[Teanett]

Pippen couldn't guard those big PF's 6'10 and up who were also very physical. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a Derrick Coleman or Shawn Kemp type of PF. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a McHale or Tim Duncan type of PF. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a 7'4 Ralph Sampson. Sure Pippen could guard a Dirk type of PF. Or an undersized PF like Barkley at times. But even a guy like Barkley would abuse Pippen with his blend of physicality and skill. Pippen didn't play bigger than his height defensively in the way say a Shawn Marion, or Rodman did. Marion and Rodman are MUCH more adept at guarding bigger PF's than Pippen ever was. And Artest and Bron as well cause both are as big and strong in terms of strength and weight of many PF's.

:no:

[Smoke117]

But the bottom line is KG could guard SG's like a T Mac very well! And u noticed I said SWINGMAN in my post. A guy who played plenty SG and SF. Guys like T Mac and Pierce were like that. Miller and Rip are more SG's instead of swingman type guys. And of top of that Mac and PP are CLEARLY BETTER PLAYERS AND MORE DANGEROUS THAN MILLER AND RIP EVER WERE! And yes I do think KG has a chance to chase Miller and Rip over the court. Hell guys Rip and Reggie's size have that trouble chasing them as it is. But KG had the athletic ability AND motor of a guy much smaller. That's what makes KG unique. Athletic ablity and motor wise, he was different from other PF's like Duncan, Malone, Dirk, Sheed, etc.

Pippen couldn't guard those big PF's 6'10 and up who were also very physical. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a Derrick Coleman or Shawn Kemp type of PF. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a McHale or Tim Duncan type of PF. I wouldn't want Pippen guarding a 7'4 Ralph Sampson. Sure Pippen could guard a Dirk type of PF. Or an undersized PF like Barkley at times. But even a guy like Barkley would abuse Pippen with his blend of physicality and skill. Pippen didn't play bigger than his height defensively in the way say a Shawn Marion, or Rodman did. Marion and Rodman are MUCH more adept at guarding bigger PF's than Pippen ever was. And Artest and Bron as well cause both are as big and strong in terms of strength and weight of many PF's.

But yes technically Pippen can guard 1-4 just like KG in my book can guard 2-5. And if anything KG is 7'0 and at least has the height of a center. Pippen guarding a 6'10 to 7'4 PF (yes I said 7'4 cause Sampson was a PF and u said any player other than a real center) means he's giving up anywhere from 3 to 9 inches. But I concede, Pippen could guard many PF's well, but not the big or very tall physical ones.

You are talking about guys that weren't even around during his career. And for one Ralph Sampson and Tim Duncan were centers, I don't care what anyone says. Ralph was soft, but there are no god damn 7-4 PF's lol. He just wanted to take jumpers, it would be a waste of Pippens time to put him on Ralph Sampson when you have Horace Grant or Rodman. Duncan only played PF because he ended up with Robinson. In the 95 season though Pippen had to guard all kinds of PF's: Webber, Barkley, Larry Johnson. The Webber part was actually amusing as it was when they were trying to make him a point forward type...yeah that was going to work against Scottie Pippen's defense. He completely embarrassed him. It was after that game that Webber said Pippen was the best player in the world. In the 1995 season Scottie had to guard a lot of pf's because Toni Kukoc was so god damn soft so anytime they were on the court together and a PF would be abusing them he had to go guard the PF's. He didn't use brute strength he used quickness, length and his extremely high basketball IQ. He did add muscle though. Like look at Tayshaun Prince and he's still skinny as shit. Look at Scottie being drafted and he's about that skinny, but he bulked up and lifted weights and got stronger in the mid 90s.

[Round Mound]

Garnett in his prime was a SF/PF best in the league for some years

[Smoke117]

Kevin Garnett actually looked up to Scottie Pippen in his younger days when he was playing sf in the late 90s. He tried to pattern his game after him and had a lot of respect for him when they met in the 2000 first round. Kevin Garnett didn't really play well, but that was the Rasheed Wallace effect. Whatever you want to say about Sheed he was the best one on one defensive player in the post for this past decade.

[bizil]

You are talking about guys that weren't even around during his career. And for one Ralph Sampson and Tim Duncan were centers, I don't care what anyone says. Ralph was soft, but there are no god damn 7-4 PF's lol. He just wanted to take jumpers, it would be a waste of Pippens time to put him on Ralph Sampson when you have Horace Grant or Rodman. Duncan only played PF because he ended up with Robinson. In the 95 season though Pippen had to guard all kinds of PF's: Webber, Barkley, Larry Johnson. The Webber part was actually amusing as it was when they were trying to make him a point forward type...yeah that was going to work against Scottie Pippen's defense. He completely embarrassed him. It was after that game that Webber said Pippen was the best player in the world. In the 1995 season Scottie had to guard a lot of pf's because Toni Kukoc was so god damn soft so anytime they were on the court together and a PF would be abusing them he had to go guard the PF's. He didn't use brute strength he used quickness, length and his extremely high basketball IQ. He did add muscle though. Like look at Tayshaun Prince and he's still skinny as shit. Look at Scottie being drafted and he's about that skinny, but he bulked up and lifted weights and got stronger in the mid 90s.

I was responding to dude that said he guard every player except a true center. Duncan and Sampson both played alongside HOF centers. No matter what u think, PF is the position that they go down in history as. Secondly sure Pippen can guard come of the guys u said. But at the same time KG could guard many of those swingman type guys in that 6'6 to 6'9 range. So if it can be said Pippen can guard four positions, then u must say the same for KG as well. Ideally, Pippen is better off guarding PG, SF, and SF. KG ideally is suited to guard SF, PF, and center. But Pip was so great on D that he could check PF's better than most guys his size. And KG was so great on D that he could check swingmen or tall SG's better than most guys his size.

As far as PF's go, I threw Sampson in there because SAMPSON WAS IN THE L WHEN PIPPEN WAS IN THE L. Pip's first year was 87-88. Sampson was 27 years old off that time as was in the All Star game just the year before. So yes they were in the L at the same time. So Sampson applies too. The only thing is Sampson got hit with the injuries. So u are wrong cause Sampson was indeed in the L when Pip debuted and still in his 20's, and was an All Star the previous year.

[Owl]

i'm not sure about the 2 and 5. i dont think i've ever seen him trying to fight through screens chasing reggie miller or jeff hornacek. nor did i ever see him matched up against the elite centers of the time.
i've seen pippen play effective defense against true point guards and power forwards.
IIRC Garnett guarded Hakeem a little in a game from 97. Not full time but down the stretch he was covering Hakeem. I think Stanley Roberts might have fouled out, but still I think he did a credible job, and Minny won. TBF at KG's peak the better players were at the pf position (Duncan, Brand, Nowitzki, Stoudamire) so there was no point getting him to guard Jake Tsikalidis. I think when you say a guy can cover 4 positions it's implicitly accepted that at least one of those you wouldn't ideally have him guard the position all game, but that they could do it in pinch, or vs the right matchup. Pippen wouldn't be ideal versus a quick pg or true power forward, but the idea is that you could have him guard those positions.

[97 bulls]

The only way I can see picking Garnett over pippen is due to size. But as has already been said, the height thing is kinda played out. Besides, pippen has proven to be more than capable at being the defensive anchor for a team. Look at his 95 season with the bulls. They were ranked number 2 in defense. And pippen was clearly the defensive anchor of that team. Garnett was not a netter scorer that pippen. He routinely avg 22 ppg as his teams first option year in and out. Whic is the same production pippen had in his two years as the main option.

Even the rebounding comparison is a wash. Prime pippen would get 8-9 rebounds a night which is great for a small forward. Hes the alltime leader in rebounds by a small forward.

The trump card pippen has over Garnett is that pippen could run an offense.

[Owl]

The only way I can see picking Garnett over pippen is due to size. But as has already been said, the height thing is kinda played out. Besides, pippen has proven to be more than capable at being the defensive anchor for a team. Look at his 95 season with the bulls. They were ranked number 2 in defense. And pippen was clearly the defensive anchor of that team. Garnett was not a netter scorer that pippen. He routinely avg 22 ppg as his teams first option year in and out. Whic is the same production pippen had in his two years as the main option.

Even the rebounding comparison is a wash. Prime pippen would get 8-9 rebounds a night which is great for a small forward. Hes the alltime leader in rebounds by a small forward.

The trump card pippen has over Garnett is that pippen could run an offense.
KG was a great rebounder period. He led the league. I'd assume (off the top of my head) that 93-95 was a faster pace than a decade later so Pippen's ppg is less impressive. I'd also suggest Garnett's range was better for his position. KG could comfortably take bigs out to 18 feet. Teams were happy for Scottie to take the 3.

[Smoke117]

The only way I can see picking Garnett over pippen is due to size. But as has already been said, the height thing is kinda played out. Besides, pippen has proven to be more than capable at being the defensive anchor for a team. Look at his 95 season with the bulls. They were ranked number 2 in defense. And pippen was clearly the defensive anchor of that team. Garnett was not a netter scorer that pippen. He routinely avg 22 ppg as his teams first option year in and out. Whic is the same production pippen had in his two years as the main option.

Even the rebounding comparison is a wash. Prime pippen would get 8-9 rebounds a night which is great for a small forward. Hes the alltime leader in rebounds by a small forward.

The trump card pippen has over Garnett is that pippen could run an offense.

The difference in defense though is Pippen had to exert more energy. It's a lot harder to anchor a defense as a sf than it is as pf. In that 95 season the Bulls used to lose leads at the end of games because Pippen was so exhausted from playing all world defense that he had no energy to finish teams off offensively. Kevin Garnett being a PF has it easier as far anchoingr a defense. While he's not a traditional shot blocker in the Robinson, Zo, hakeem, mutombo mold he still stayed closer to the basket and exerted less energy. For Pippen to exert as much energy as he did in 95 every single season he would be completely exhausted by the time playoffs came around. When Jordan and Rodman came along he was probably relieved because he didn't have to carry these jokers defensively and finally had some help again.

[Whoah10115]

I was responding to dude that said he guard every player except a true center. Duncan and Sampson both played alongside HOF centers. No matter what u think, PF is the position that they go down in history as. Secondly sure Pippen can guard come of the guys u said. But at the same time KG could guard many of those swingman type guys in that 6'6 to 6'9 range. So if it can be said Pippen can guard four positions, then u must say the same for KG as well. Ideally, Pippen is better off guarding PG, SF, and SF. KG ideally is suited to guard SF, PF, and center. But Pip was so great on D that he could check PF's better than most guys his size. And KG was so great on D that he could check swingmen or tall SG's better than most guys his size.

As far as PF's go, I threw Sampson in there because SAMPSON WAS IN THE L WHEN PIPPEN WAS IN THE L. Pip's first year was 87-88. Sampson was 27 years old off that time as was in the All Star game just the year before. So yes they were in the L at the same time. So Sampson applies too. The only thing is Sampson got hit with the injuries. So u are wrong cause Sampson was indeed in the L when Pip debuted and still in his 20's, and was an All Star the previous year.





But he's right when he says Duncan was a PF because of Robinson. They played with two centers. Just like Phoenix played with none when Amare was the guy. But I understand calling Duncan a PF.



But I disagree with him on Sampson. Sampson was 7'4 but that guy didn't play anything like a center. It's a lot like Dirk. And Hakeem was there by his 2nd season.

[Smoke117]

But he's right when he says Duncan was a PF because of Robinson. They played with two centers. Just like Phoenix played with none when Amare was the guy. But I understand calling Duncan a PF.



But I disagree with him on Sampson. Sampson was 7'4 but that guy didn't play anything like a center. It's a lot like Dirk. And Hakeem was there by his 2nd season.


No Sampson didn't, he was always considered soft as shit. He wanted to shoot fade away jumpers from 12-15 feet away. He was definitely no Dirk though as far as a shooter.

[97 bulls]

KG was a great rebounder period. He led the league. I'd assume (off the top of my head) that 93-95 was a faster pace than a decade later so Pippen's ppg is less impressive. I'd also suggest Garnett's range was better for his position. KG could comfortably take bigs out to 18 feet. Teams were happy for Scottie to take the 3.
I never said Garnett wasnt a great rebounder. If I make the claim pippen was a great renounder and it was a relative wash, thats calling Garnett great too

And no the 00s wasnt that much slower than the mid 90s.

[Smoke117]

I never said Garnett wasnt a great rebounder. If I make the claim pippen was a great renounder and it was a relative wash, thats calling Garnett great too

And no the 00s wasnt that much slower than the mid 90s.

It's kind of who you play with. Garnett really never had anybody else there to grab boards so his rebounds were high, but offensive rebounds are a lot harder to get and most of KG's rebounds were defensive rebounds. He was never notable as far as an offensive rebounder. He was pretty paltry in fact for most of his career. Most of his rebounds were defensive because he played with nobody who could rebound. When Jordan left Scottie averaged a career high 8.7rpg. It doesn't take a genius to realize when your teammates can't rebound you will get most of them. Kevin Garnett is an extremely overrated rebounder because he never played with anyone on the Tpups who did any ****ing rebounding.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen for a few reasons. One, he was a better defender (for a longer period of time) and playmaker. Pipppen was ALSO more versatile making him far more dangerous down the stretch - anyone that argues otherwise needs their head examined, so please save your bullshit for somebody else. Finally, he was a winner. Everywhere he went, the guy made the playoffs (without Mike, he led the Bulls to a 55-27 record taking Riley's Knicks, IN THEIR PRIME, to a Game 7). That's gotta account for something.

[bizil]

But he's right when he says Duncan was a PF because of Robinson. They played with two centers. Just like Phoenix played with none when Amare was the guy. But I understand calling Duncan a PF.



But I disagree with him on Sampson. Sampson was 7'4 but that guy didn't play anything like a center. It's a lot like Dirk. And Hakeem was there by his 2nd season.

U make great points! And Duncan's skillset was really elements that made all of the great centers. This was different the PF's before in the 90's like Malone, Barkley, Coleman, LJ, etc. Duncan was also very versatile player who could easily play PF and play outside of the lane up to 15-18 feet. He was a great passing big man, had very good-great handle for his size, and had a nice midrange jumper which included arguably the best bank shot of all time.

Sampson I agree even at 7'4 was probably more suited to play PF. Sure he can play center, but his best position was most likely PF. When I think of all the great centers, basically of them are physical, dominate the paint on offense, defense, or both, and dominate on the boards. Duncan had all of those great center elements in spades. He covers all of those areas BETTER than many most of the top 10 GOAT centers. Russell wasn't dominant in the paint in terms of his back to basket game. Malone didn't dominate on the defensive end. Tim's offensive arsenal on the block in only rivaled by Kareem and Hakeem. So I can easily see why many consider Timmy a center.

[bizil]

But on a side note, it can be hard to compare a small to a big. It also depends at times on what type of team u want to have. It's a lot easier comparing players to their other positions in terms of who u would rather have to build around. Or if anything it's easier comparing perimeter to perimeter and big to big.

[Xiao Yao You]

When I was speaking of an up tempo team which would have been best for Pippen's offensive gifts I always think of the 06 Suns. Shawn Marion averaged 21.8ppg on a .521%. You have to be hard pressed to tell me Pippen couldn't have replaced Marion and averaged 25ppg in that offense. The only thing Marion does better yjsm Pippen was rebound. Shawn Marion is TERRIBLE BALL HANDLER. He spotted up in the corner or he finished the break. Pippen could start the break, handle the ball, make the correct pass, and finish using his long arms or just brute strength.

Marion was the PF on those teams. Pippen at the 4? He was a better shot blocker too and arguably 3 point shooter though neither was great at it.


It was after that embarrassing 54 point performance the Jazz put up in the 98 finals that Phil called Scottie "a one man wrecking crew". Before he really screwed up his back taking that charge from Karl malone in game 5 he was the favorite to win FMVP for the defense he was playing and all around series he was having.

I'd give the MVP to Malone he won 2 series for the Bulls with his play.


Duncan and Sampson both played alongside HOF centers. No matter what u think, PF is the position that they go down in history as.

I'd say Sampson's best year was his first when he was the center. Robinson played like a small forward on the offensive end. Duncan is more of a center in my mind regardless of what he's supposedly going down as.


The trump card pippen has over Garnett is that pippen could run an offense.

The offense was ran through KG. One of the greatest passing and most unselfish bigs ever.


Kevin Garnett is an extremely overrated rebounder because he never played with anyone on the Tpups who did any ****ing rebounding.

He was the best in the game for a time. Regardless of who played with him he was still getting the rebounds from the other team.

[Smoke117]

I dont' get where people get this idea that Pippen wasn't clutch. He made a lot of big shots over his career. Being clutch doesn't mean taking the last shot. You know how many huge pull up 3pters that Pippen took to ice games throughout the 2nd threepeat. Hell I remember one where Jordan was pissed that Pippen took the 3pter even though it went it went in he was still mad lol. Bulls would never have gotten out of that series in 93 vs Knicks without Pippen making big shot after big shot.

[get these NETS]

KG could indeed guard some SG's. U gotta realize SG's range anywhere from 6'0 to damn near 6'9. Those guys in that 6'7 to 6'9 bracket in particular KG could D up if he had to. But at the same time KG is 7 foot and was at one time arguably the L's best rebounder. And he had a blend of athletic ablity and skill and that most PF's if ANY could match.

So KG's better off as a PF-SF type player. KG most likely couldn't D up a pure swingman type like a Kobe, Bowen, Battier, etc. But at 7 foot, KG is one of the FEW guys that size who could guard a swingman type very good. But once again, KG is better off as a PF-SF with point forward skills and beast rebounding and intensity.

KG could also guard some fives very good. Could KG protect the paint as good as centers or a PF like Duncan in terms of blocks, etc. NO! But in terms of being like a quarterback on defense on that baseline and in the paint, KG was still as good as it got.

And what sets KG apart from Pippen is the fact that there are players more similar to Pippen's skillset historically. Hondo was very, very similar to Pippen. Pippen added 6'7 height and Dr.J type athletic ability to that skillset. Bird and Barry both had point forward type skills in the halfcourt and could dominate a statline offensively and rebounding wise just as good or better than Pippen. Pippen just added lockdown defense and point guard handles to that. But when it comes to KG, there was NEVER a 7 footer like him.

So when people say what KG could do better than Pip need to think. KG was a 7 footer with freakish athletic ability, great defense, point forward skills, and still led the L in boards multiple years. And could get u 24 points a night on top of it. KG is just simply more unique than Pippen was. And was a more dominant player!


the predecessors to KG were Roy Tarpley and Derick McKey

[StateOfMind12]

Kevin Garnett.

Garnett was pretty much Pippen.......except bigger and better. I'm a Bulls fan too by the way, but Kevin Garnett was just better. It's not KG's fault that the T'Wolves wasted his prime and had no clue how to build around him.

Kevin Garnett is top 15-20 on my all-time list. Scottie Pippen is top 25-30 on my all-time list.

[97 bulls]

Kevin Garnett.

Garnett was pretty much Pippen.......except bigger and better. I'm a Bulls fan too by the way, but Kevin Garnett was just better. It's not KG's fault that the T'Wolves wasted his prime and had no clue how to build around him.

Kevin Garnett is top 15-20 on my all-time list. Scottie Pippen is top 25-30 on my all-time list.
What makes Garnett better? Like you stated, theyre essentially the same player. Garnett has the size, but the bigman better than smallman thing is extinct. Its an old concept. Just look at who the best teams best players have been over the last 30 years.

[guy]

The only way I can see picking Garnett over pippen is due to size. But as has already been said, the height thing is kinda played out. Besides, pippen has proven to be more than capable at being the defensive anchor for a team. Look at his 95 season with the bulls. They were ranked number 2 in defense. And pippen was clearly the defensive anchor of that team. Garnett was not a netter scorer that pippen. He routinely avg 22 ppg as his teams first option year in and out. Whic is the same production pippen had in his two years as the main option.

Even the rebounding comparison is a wash. Prime pippen would get 8-9 rebounds a night which is great for a small forward. Hes the alltime leader in rebounds by a small forward.

The trump card pippen has over Garnett is that pippen could run an offense.

Height and size is played out? :oldlol: WHAT? And how the F*CK is rebounding a wash? You can't be serious. Kevin Garnett was putting up 5-6 assists per game, which is all-time great for a PF. I guess KG vs. Magic as a passer is a wash then. If we're going to judge players relative to height and position then Muggsy Bogues is the GOAT and I'm taking him over Michael Jordan. And by the way, Pippen is not the all-time leader in rebounds for SFs.

And you can't just judge scoring solely on stats. And even if you were to, KG in his best years was putting up 23-24 ppg and he was always a more efficient scorer from the field and form the line.

[bizil]

the predecessors to KG were Roy Tarpley and Derick McKey

Very interesting comparison! I feel if u could combine the two players into one u would get KG! It's a damn shame what happened with Tarpley. His downfall most likely cost those Mavs teams a possible ring.

[bizil]

Marion was the PF on those teams. Pippen at the 4? He was a better shot blocker too and arguably 3 point shooter though neither was great at it.



I'd give the MVP to Malone he won 2 series for the Bulls with his play.



I'd say Sampson's best year was his first when he was the center. Robinson played like a small forward on the offensive end. Duncan is more of a center in my mind regardless of what he's supposedly going down as.



The offense was ran through KG. One of the greatest passing and most unselfish bigs ever.



He was the best in the game for a time. Regardless of who played with him he was still getting the rebounds from the other team.

I agree that KG was a point forward caliber player himself. Even if it was considered point power forward, guys like KG, C Webb, and 36 year old Magic all fit this kind of bill. Even if they aren't bringing up the pill every possesion, in the half court they facilitated offense in a special way. Those three had passing savvy on par with some of the premier PG's in the L.

In terms of Sampson, statistically his first year was his best. But once Dream came in, I feel he continued to improve and expand his game. His numbers went down because a more superior player than him came to the team. But both were awesome as The Twin Towers!

Robinson indeed thrived in a faceup role on offense. The Admiral revolutionized the C spot with his combo of freakish athletic ability, strength, and slashing ability. But don't get it twisted, David wasn't like Dirk in that aspect. David would still postup and bang the offensive boards. And also catch those alleyoops. But David ALSO maintained his big man presence on the other end of the court. He played like a premier big man should in terms of protecting the paint and boards. He was on par with Duncan on both of those aspects. But Duncan had the superior back to the basket post game.

[brahmabull117]

What makes Garnett better? Like you stated, theyre essentially the same player. Garnett has the size, but the bigman better than smallman thing is extinct. Its an old concept. Just look at who the best teams best players have been over the last 30 years.


Okay so you have 2 players who are about equal offensively and garnett makes a much bigger difference in team rebounding and team defense


why in the world would anybody consider taking Pippen? Look bro, I'm a die hard bulls fan myself. I just don't see any reason for taking Pip over one of the best PFs in history of the game. At his prime, KG was a top 20 player in terms of all around skills - Pip around #25-#30

[97 bulls]

Okay so you have 2 players who are about equal offensively and garnett makes a much bigger difference in team rebounding and team defense


why in the world would anybody consider taking Pippen? Look bro, I'm a die hard bulls fan myself. I just don't see any reason for taking Pip over one of the best PFs in history of the game. At his prime, KG was a top 20 player in terms of all around skills - Pip around #25-#30
Pippen is one of the best SFs in history. Not to mention he was a great rebounder for a small forward, he was the bulls defensive anchor too. I dont know how old you are, but take some time and look up what pippen did for that bulls team. That team was ranked number 2 in team defense. Now if pippen wasnt their defensive anchor, who was? Longley? Kukoc? Dickey Simpkins? Larry Krystoaiak? That year, pippen led the bulls in every category, was theor teams best help defender,best man defender, best press defender. He was everything to that team. He led the league in steals, and defense rating, avg a block a game, was 1st in all defense voting, as well as allnba voting. And he provides an aspect that Garnett cant, he can run an offense.

[bizil]

To be honest, I would rather argue Pip against SF's like Bird, Bron, Hondo, Barry, etc. Or against other SG's or big PG's. Or KG to Duncan, Barkley, Malone, Dirk, Hayes, McHale, etc. These guys in all around ability are very, very similar other than their heights. Their bodies are even very similar in terms of the way they were built. I also how their bodies filled out over time. When arguing a great big vs a great small, it can be kinda like comparing apples and oranges. Even if one compared MJ against Kareem in building around, a major argument can lean toward Kareem. Even though I feel MJ is the GOAT.

[StateOfMind12]

What makes Garnett better? Like you stated, theyre essentially the same player. Garnett has the size, but the bigman better than smallman thing is extinct. Its an old concept. Just look at who the best teams best players have been over the last 30 years.
Garnett was better than Pippen at everything except man to man defense which was one of Garnett's weaknesses IMO.

If we are comparing careers and all-time list then this makes it even easier since Garnett accomplished far more than Pippen though. It's not Garnett's fault he did not have the luxury to play with the greatest player of all-time like Pippen did.

While I believe that Pippen is underrated, I think that Kevin Garnett was just on another level.

[97 bulls]

Height and size is played out? :oldlol: WHAT? And how the F*CK is rebounding a wash? You can't be serious. Kevin Garnett was putting up 5-6 assists per game, which is all-time great for a PF. I guess KG vs. Magic as a passer is a wash then. If we're going to judge players relative to height and position then Muggsy Bogues is the GOAT and I'm taking him over Michael Jordan. And by the way, Pippen is not the all-time leader in rebounds for SFs.

And you can't just judge scoring solely on stats. And even if you were to, KG in his best years was putting up 23-24 ppg and he was always a more efficient scorer from the field and form the line.

Its played out in that its not a given that you take a big over a small.

And pippens actually second to hondo as rebound

The rest of your post shows your pippen agenda

[97 bulls]

Garnett was better than Pippen at everything except man to man defense which was one of Garnett's weaknesses IMO.

If we are comparing careers and all-time list then this makes it even easier since Garnett accomplished far more than Pippen though. It's not Garnett's fault he did not have the luxury to play with the greatest player of all-time like Pippen did.

While I believe that Pippen is underrated, I think that Kevin Garnett was just on another level.
Im gonna give you the benefit of doubt as far as you only seeing this through garnets situation. But why penalize pippen for his situation but excuse Garnett? My god the double standard applied to pippen here is just ridiculous.

[Owl]

I never said Garnett wasnt a great rebounder. If I make the claim pippen was a great renounder and it was a relative wash, thats calling Garnett great too

And no the 00s wasnt that much slower than the mid 90s.
The point was Garnett was not just among the better rebounds at his position (Grant Hill and Anthony Mason if just focusing on that era would stand out as regulars who were a little better in that area) he was the best, better than power forwards and centres.
And not much of a difference no but a marginal one which is why I said it made Garnett's numbers marginally more impressive (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html).
And as before "for position" Garnett had superior range.

That's not to take away from Pip, they were both tremendously well rounded ballers, both led their team in all 5 major statistical categories in the same year. It's a good comparison, it's reasonably close, but Garnett was better.

[guy]

Its played out in that its not a given that you take a big over a small.

And pippens actually second to hondo as rebound

The rest of your post shows your pippen agenda

Okay, sure its not a given. But saying stuff like Pippen and KG as rebounders is a wash because of positional differences is absolutely idiotic and implies that you really don't think that matters.

Pippen's behind Baylor, Bird, and Hondo.

What agenda? I'm just pointing out that your post was really dumb and lacks intelligent logic. Seriously, saying what you said is like saying "Jordan's a better scorer then Muggsy but he's also 15 inches taller and Muggsy played PG so its basically a wash." Its incredibly dumb.

[97 bulls]

I
The point was Garnett was not just among the better rebounds at his position (Grant Hill and Anthony Mason if just focusing on that era would stand out as regulars who were a little better in that area) he was the best, better than power forwards and centres.
And not much of a difference no but a marginal one which is why I said it made Garnett's numbers marginally more impressive (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html).
And as before "for position" Garnett had superior range.

That's not to take away from ip, they were both tremendously well rounded ballers, both led their team in all 5 major statistical categories in the same year. It's a good comparison, it's reasonably close, but Garnett was better.
Very fair assessment owl. My only response would be in reference to garnet being a superior jumpshooter to pippens on a pound for pound basis. Thats fair. But pippen was much better in the post. And notice I havnt compared skills like ballhandling or 3pt shooting. Pippen should be better based on position the same should apply to rebounding

[97 bulls]

Okay, sure its not a given. But saying stuff like Pippen and KG as rebounders is a wash because of positional differences is absolutely idiotic and implies that you really don't think that matters.

Pippen's behind Baylor, Bird, and Hondo.

What agenda? I'm just pointing out that your post was really dumb and lacks intelligent logic. Seriously, saying what you said is like saying "Jordan's a better scorer then Muggsy but he's also 15 inches taller and Muggsy played PG so its basically a wash." Its incredibly dumb.
Its not idiotic. My comparison is different than any other pound for pound comparison.

Bird started his career as a PF. Same as Baylor

Mugsy Gouges is a bad example. Allen Iverson is a better one. He's been called the best f: pound for pound

[Bigsmoke]

Im gonna give you the benefit of doubt as far as you only seeing this through garnets situation. But why penalize pippen for his situation but excuse Garnett? My god the double standard applied to pippen here is just ridiculous.

have u ever voted against someone who didn't play for the 97 Bulls?

[guy]

Its not idiotic. My comparison is different than any other pound for pound comparison.

Bird started his career as a PF. Same as Baylor

Mugsy Gouges is a bad example. Allen Iverson is a better one. He's been called the best f: pound for pound

Ok why are you doing pound for pound though? The game isnt played pound for pound. If AI scores a basket he doesn't get an extra point for being much smaller then everyone else. And what exactly are you trying to say now? Jordan and AI scoring wise is a wash?

Bird and baylor are generally known as SFs. People call Bird the GOAT SF not PF.

[RaininTwos]

garnett no hesitation not sure if serious:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
this this this.

no disrespect, but seriously? this is a real question?

[StateOfMind12]

Im gonna give you the benefit of doubt as far as you only seeing this through garnets situation. But why penalize pippen for his situation but excuse Garnett? My god the double standard applied to pippen here is just ridiculous.
I'm not penalizing Pippen. I'm just being realistic here.

Do you honestly think those 90s Bulls teams would be worse with KG instead of Pippen, and do you honestly think the T'Wolves or Celtics would be better with Pippen instead of KG?

KG had a better prime, peak, and has accomplished more than Pippen. There aren't many things Pippen has over KG. I can think of three things Pippen has over KG, championship rings, man to man defense, and ball-handling. That does not make up for the mass amount of advantages KG has over Pippen.

[97 bulls]

I'm not penalizing Pippen. I'm just being realistic here.

Do you honestly think those 90s Bulls teams would be worse with KG instead of Pippen, and do you honestly think the T'Wolves or Celtics would be better with Pippen instead of KG?

KG had a better prime, peak, and has accomplished more than Pippen. There aren't many things Pippen has over KG. I can think of three things Pippen has over KG, championship rings, man to man defense, and ball-handling. That does not make up for the mass amount of advantages KG has over Pippen.
I don't feel the bulls would be better with garnet at SF. Who runs the offense? Is garnett supposed to defend the wing?

And yes, you are penalizing pip for things he can't control. Most people feel that had pippen not miss 10 games in 94, he would've won the Mvp. He should've won the
Dpoy in 95.

And I do hold garnett accountable for what happened in Minnesota. 7 straight first round exits? And before you bring up garnetts help, remember that had he not sign that contract, he would've had a great team. Rider? Marbury? Gugliota? Garnett contract hurt : hurt his chances of winning

[97 bulls]

Garnett contract was one of the main reasons for the strike in 99

[magnax1]

I don't feel the bulls would be better with garnet at SF. Who runs the offense? Is garnett supposed to defend the wing?

Garnett did both of those things anyway lol. He played SF either the majority of the time, or around half the game up until 03, and he basically ran the offense on his own in 03 and 05 when Terrell Brandon left, and Cassell was injured.
Anyway, this is really clear to me. KG could be called 7 foot much more dominant version of Pippen. The only thing that Pippen is probably better at is perimeter defense, but KG is as good at that as anyone big except Rodman. This question shouldn't even be asked.

[Rose]

Garnett did both of those things anyway lol. He played SF either the majority of the time, or around half the game up until 03, and he basically ran the offense on his own in 03 and 05 when Terrell Brandon left, and Cassell was injured.
Anyway, this is really clear to me. KG could be called 7 foot much more dominant version of Pippen. The only thing that Pippen is probably better at is perimeter defense, but KG is as good at that as anyone big except Rodman. This question shouldn't even be asked.
Pippen.


He broke his back making sure that Karl Malone would never win a ring.:rockon: trollface.jpg

[97 bulls]

have u ever voted against someone who didn't play for the 97 Bulls?
Im not even arguing against picking KG. But to act as if its idiotic to choose pip? Come on. I've already proved that pippen was the anchor of the bulls in 95.

Their scoring is a wash

And pippen can run your offense

[magnax1]

Pippen.


He broke his back making sure that Karl Malone would never win a ring.:rockon: trollface.jpg
Your pic seems to not have gone through. It serves you right for not praising Karl Malone's abusive and violent play. Especially towards Pippen!

[Xiao Yao You]

He broke his back making sure that Karl Malone would never win a ring.

Should have saved his energy. Karl didn't need any help missing lay-up after lay-up.

[97 bulls]

Garnett did both of those things anyway lol. He played SF either the majority of the time, or around half the game up until 03, and he basically ran the offense on his own in 03 and 05 when Terrell Brandon left, and Cassell was injured.
Anyway, this is really clear to me. KG could be called 7 foot much more dominant version of Pippen. The only thing that Pippen is probably better at is perimeter defense, but KG is as good at that as anyone big except Rodman. This question shouldn't even be asked.
He never ran the offense, and he's always been a PF

[Xiao Yao You]

The offense ran through him. He's one of the great passing bigs ever. His biggest weakness was being too unselfish unlike the prick move Pippen pulled when Phil called a play for the guy that could actually shoot instead of him.

[97 bulls]

The offense ran through him. He's one of the great passing bigs ever. His biggest weakness was being too unselfish unlike the prick move Pippen pulled when Phil called a play for the guy that could actually shoot instead of him.
Kevin Garnetts selfish contract crippled the wolves from building a legit dynasty and was a huge reason for the strike in 99. Id call that pretty selfish

[Bernie Nips]

Kevin Garnetts selfish contract crippled the wolves from building a legit dynasty and was a huge reason for the strike in 99. Id call that pretty selfish

Uhhh, no it was more McHale trying to do backroom dealings with Joe Smith and the Timberwolves getting penalised in the draft because of it. Without the draft picks, a lot harder to make trades for better players, and of course - the players you miss out on in the draft. Yeah, ONE franchise player's contract crippled the entire team. Nice one.

[bwink23]

Looks like KG won out with an overwhelming decision.

[97 bulls]

Looks like KG won out with an overwhelming decision.
Lol really? Popular opinion at one time was that the world was flat.

[bwink23]

Lol really? Popular opinion at one time was that the world was flat.


The opinion these days is KG(round earth) over SP (flat earth).

The votes have been tallied, and pippen is dismissed.

[Hittin_Shots]

Lol really? Popular opinion at one time was that the world was flat.

I'd say the popular opinion is that you're butt-hurt and that seems to hold true.

[97 bulls]

Looks like KG won out with an overwhelming decision.
Even better. Your a Jordan fan, at one time, popular opinion said that Jordan would never be a champion. How did that work out?

[magic chiongson]

in their primes, how do you think this team would do in today's nba:

PG: terell brandon
SG: jr smith
SF: pippen
PF: garnett
C: ilgauskas

bench:
scott skiles
shandon anderson
rex chapman
antoine carr
brian cook

[bwink23]

Even better. Your a Jordan fan, at one time, popular opinion said that Jordan would never be a champion. How did that work out?


Don't get butthurt cuz no one agrees with you...it's a vote, and your fav came out on the short end of the stick...Life goes on.

[97 bulls]

I'd say the popular opinion is that you're butt-hurt and that seems to hold true.
Why? Pippen has 6 champioships and I witnessed them all

[97 bulls]

Don't get butthurt cuz no one agrees with you...it's a vote, and your fav came out on the short end of the stick...Life goes on.
They persecuted Jesus too.

[bwink23]

They persecuted Jesus too.

Neither you or Pippen are Jesus.....try not to lose any sleep over the results. :sleeping

[Hittin_Shots]

They persecuted Jesus too.

probably made a shotty house for them.

[gengiskhan]

Kevin Garnett easily

Pippen's leadership quality has always been questioned.

Pippen also is an eternal whiner regarding contract how he wasnt paid well & always asked for a trade.

Garnett has killer attitude & extremely competitive. Pippen is not.

Garnet 1 reg sea MVP. Pippen ZERO

Garnett all the way.

[Whoah10115]

in their primes, how do you think this team would do in today's nba:

PG: terell brandon
SG: jr smith
SF: pippen
PF: garnett
C: ilgauskas

bench:
scott skiles
shandon anderson
rex chapman
antoine carr
brian cook



Weird team that I don't like....but very good team.

[Xiao Yao You]

popular opinion said that Jordan would never be a champion

When was that? Before I watched him beat Georgetown and had never heard of him?

[eliteballer]

Even the rebounding comparison is a wash




Their scoring is a wash



No they're not, you moron:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Kevin Garnett easily

Pippen's leadership quality has always been questioned.

Pippen also is an eternal whiner regarding contract how he wasnt paid well & always asked for a trade.

Garnett has killer attitude & extremely competitive. Pippen is not.

Garnet 1 reg sea MVP. Pippen ZERO

Garnett all the way.
Lol 7 straight years of first round exits. Some leader

[Marquis Daniels]

Lol 7 straight years of first round exits. Some leader


Not his fault his team sucks. :facepalm

[Rose]

Alright, I'm done watching the Bulls game so I can defend Pippen.

First off KG had 7 straight years of first round exits.

Pippen almost(and should/would have if not for the worst call ever) made the Finals in his first year of being the leader. He was a top 3 MVP candidate in that one year, and of course a DPOY guy.

He not only had the trust of his team, but his coach, of management, and every fan of the Bulls. It was definitely a little rocky, but he earned it. He proved he could at the very least make the ECF in a pretty tough eastern conference.

Kevin Garnett spent 7 years in the first round. Kind of like Carmelo. Then when he got considerable talent upgrades he made it out of the first round. He was also a DPOY candidate, perennial MVP candidate.

And after Cassell went down he lost. He played his heart out that final game of the WCF, and lost. If that call doesn't go the Knicks way. Bulls go back home where they had lost I think 6? games all season not sure how many but it was a number around there. Up one game. with a chance to close it out in 6. That was all in ONE year of being the man.

After that, KG never made the playoffs again in Minny. While part of that is because of McFail's Joe Smith thing....KG should have at least made the playoffs again the next year. Then he won his ring in Boston and after that the rest is history.

Defensively both players could anchor your defense. Offensively they bring different things.

Really I think you could go either way on this one, and I would actually probably take Pippen.

[bwink23]

Alright, I'm done watching the Bulls game so I can defend Pippen.

First off KG had 7 straight years of first round exits.

Pippen almost(and should/would have if not for the worst call ever) made the Finals in his first year of being the leader. He was a top 3 MVP candidate in that one year, and of course a DPOY guy.

He not only had the trust of his team, but his coach, of management, and every fan of the Bulls. It was definitely a little rocky, but he earned it. He proved he could at the very least make the ECF in a pretty tough eastern conference.

Kevin Garnett spent 7 years in the first round. Kind of like Carmelo. Then when he got considerable talent upgrades he made it out of the first round. He was also a DPOY candidate, perennial MVP candidate.

And after Cassell went down he lost. He played his heart out that final game of the WCF, and lost. If that call doesn't go the Knicks way. Bulls go back home where they had lost I think 6? games all season not sure how many but it was a number around there. Up one game. with a chance to close it out in 6. That was all in ONE year of being the man.

After that, KG never made the playoffs again in Minny. While part of that is because of McFail's Joe Smith thing....KG should have at least made the playoffs again the next year. Then he won his ring in Boston and after that the rest is history.

Defensively both players could anchor your defense. Offensively they bring different things.

Really I think you could go either way on this one, and I would actually probably take Pippen.



The Bulls were eliminated in the second round, and it wouldn't have been that close if the Knicks had Derek Harper and Kukoc didn't hit that game winner that Pippen cried about and sat on the bench.

So no, they were not close to making the Finals....:facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

Pippen almost(and should/would have if not for the worst call ever) made the Finals in his first year of being the leader. He was a top 3 MVP candidate in that one year, and of course a DPOY guy.

It was a championship team minus one not the Flip Saunders led scrubs.


He not only had the trust of his team, but his coach, of management, and every fan of the Bulls. It was definitely a little rocky, but he earned it. He proved he could at the very least make the ECF in a pretty tough eastern conference.

Also proved he could be a bitch when he didn't get his way.


I think you could go either way on this one, and I would actually probably take Pippen.

You could but you'd be a horrible GM.

[bizil]

Garnett did both of those things anyway lol. He played SF either the majority of the time, or around half the game up until 03, and he basically ran the offense on his own in 03 and 05 when Terrell Brandon left, and Cassell was injured.
Anyway, this is really clear to me. KG could be called 7 foot much more dominant version of Pippen. The only thing that Pippen is probably better at is perimeter defense, but KG is as good at that as anyone big except Rodman. This question shouldn't even be asked.

Great point! KG came into the L with Googs as the PF. Plus KG was only like 220-225 pounds when he came in the L. Weight and body wise, he was more of a SF. His skills and athletic ability was on par with the elite SF's. So thus he was a SF early on. But he could rebound as good as the best bigs over time. And KG used to bring up the ball as a point forward or point power forward at times. In that series against the Lakers in the WCF, I VIVIDLY recall KG bringing up the rock.

People also need to realize that KG facilitated the offense VERY OFTEN in the halfcourt in Minny. Just like a Bird or Barry did in their day from the SF spot. In MANY cases, they were their teams best passer as it was anyway. So u can have point forward type traits or skills even if u DON'T do it in the way Bron or Pippen did. I concede Pippen and Bron are your prototypical point forwards because they brought up the ball and ran a fast break more often. But PF's like KG and Webber or Bird, Hondo, and Barry at SF did enough facilitating that they could be considered on certain levels point forward type players as well. Bird was the best passer on those Boston teams, Hondo was often times on his teams, Barry was in GS. Webber was often times the best passers on those Sac teams minus JWill, and KG a alot of the time was on Minny.

[Xiao Yao You]

Webber was often times the best passers on those Sac teams minus JWill

Minus JWill is when they became good with Bibby.

[Rose]

The Bulls were eliminated in the second round, and it wouldn't have been that close if the Knicks had Derek Harper and Kukoc didn't hit that game winner that Pippen cried about and sat on the bench.

So no, they were not close to making the Finals....:facepalm
I met second round. And yes they were. the conference finals is as close as KG got before teaming up.:lol So in one year of being alone(basically a year) Pippen got practically as far as KG did in his prime.

[bwink23]

I met second round. And yes they were. the conference finals is as close as KG got before teaming up.:lol So in one year of being alone(basically a year) Pippen got practically as far as KG did in his prime.

NOT EVEN CLOSE....

The Bulls were an established 3-peat team, with a GOAT coach, Europe's best player, with future role player additions who locked in 3 more rings with the Bulls....

BIG DIFFERENCE

[Xiao Yao You]

So in one year of being alone

Horace Grant and Phil Jackson laugh at that. Horace was a huge part of it all. He was the key to their vaunted full court press that they went to if they needed to step it up. See the next year minus Horace how Pippen carried them to a .500 record and 1st round exit and get back to me about him going it alone.

[Rose]

NOT EVEN CLOSE....

The Bulls were an established 3-peat team, with a GOAT coach, Europe's best player, with future role player additions who locked in 3 more rings with the Bulls....

BIG DIFFERENCE
I'll give you the GOAT coach, with( although not quite at the time) Europe's arguably best player at the time.

but role players? the next best player was...Horace Grant. Followed by either Kukoc or Armstrong who actually had the better numbers somehow
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

It's not like Pippen had the greatest roster to deal with, or even a particularly good one. In fact it's not unlike what Dwight had last year, no one averaged over 15 a game. And pushed the Knicks to 7 games. Arguably Riley's best Knicks team. If not the best definitely second best. Like I said, that one call changes history. Chicago easily would have beaten Indiana. And made the Finals.

KG had some generally shit teams, but we've seen how many guys carry weak teams to the Finals, or at least get them out of the first round? Especially guys who are in the top 20ish-30 of all time. Guys like AI, Kidd, Drexler etc etc. Specifically AI had some bad teams, but they were tailored to him. I'll admit that.

Pippen brings the better skillset, Garnett just played a premium position.

[Xiao Yao You]

we've seen how many guys carry weak teams to the Finals, or at least get them out of the first round? Especially guys who are in the top 20ish-30 of all time. Guys like AI, Kidd, Drexler etc etc. Specifically AI had some bad teams, but they were tailored to him. I'll admit that.


Again Pippen had that opportunity when the seemingly forgotten piece to the first 3 titles Horace left. He couldn't carry them anywhere. The Bulls and triangle were tailored for Pippen too.

[bwink23]

I'll give you the GOAT coach, with( although not quite at the time) Europe's arguably best player at the time.

but role players? the next best player was...Horace Grant. Followed by either Kukoc or Armstrong who actually had the better numbers somehow
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

It's not like Pippen had the greatest roster to deal with, or even a particularly good one. In fact it's not unlike what Dwight had last year, no one averaged over 15 a game. And pushed the Knicks to 7 games. Arguably Riley's best Knicks team. If not the best definitely second best. Like I said, that one call changes history. Chicago easily would have beaten Indiana. And made the Finals.

KG had some generally shit teams, but we've seen how many guys carry weak teams to the Finals, or at least get them out of the first round? Especially guys who are in the top 20ish-30 of all time. Guys like AI, Kidd, Drexler etc etc. Specifically AI had some bad teams, but they were tailored to him. I'll admit that.

Pippen brings the better skillset, Garnett just played a premium position.


So what happened the next year when the key pieces to 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS IN A ROW, left??? :confusedshrug:

[Rose]

So what happened the next year when the key pieces to 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS IN A ROW, left??? :confusedshrug:
Jordan came back and altered the team's chemistry, to a degree.

When Jordan came back and he's admitted this as well. That basically everyone was a new player and he had to learn to adjust to them and vice versa and that adversely effected it.

[bwink23]

Jordan came back and altered the team's chemistry, to a degree.

When Jordan came back and he's admitted this as well. That basically everyone was a new player and he had to learn to adjust to them and vice versa and that adversely effected it.


They were 34-31 when he came back, and 13-4 with him....:facepalm

[Rose]

They were 34-31 when he came back, and 13-4 with him....:facepalm
:lol

Okay I ran out of ways to validate my reasoning:confusedshrug:

[Xiao Yao You]

MJ was in baseball shape not basketball shape. Only thing that stopped them

[97 bulls]

NOT EVEN CLOSE....

The Bulls were an established 3-peat team, with a GOAT coach, Europe's best player, with future role player additions who locked in 3 more rings with the Bulls....

BIG DIFFERENCE
Weve been through this before. First, even you admited the 93 and 94 bulls rosters were different. Gone from the 93 bulls roster was tucker and Jordan. Paxson rarely played. Scott Williams was hurt most of the season. Stacy King was traded for luc Longley. Thats five players off that team. You clearly have an agenda

Even if what you said was true as far as the 94 bulls being the same team as the 93 team, what does that say about your idol Jordan? Cuz youd basically saying Pete Myers and Toni kukoc as a rookie equal Jordan. Now either you believe that, or you have an agenda

[97 bulls]

So what happened the next year when the key pieces to 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS IN A ROW, left??? :confusedshrug:
The same thing that happened to Jordan pre Pippen. But Jordan gets a pass

[97 bulls]

The Bulls were eliminated in the second round, and it wouldn't have been that close if the Knicks had Derek Harper and Kukoc didn't hit that game winner that Pippen cried about and sat on the bench.

So no, they were not close to making the Finals....:facepalm
Another double standard. That wasn't the first time a team has played shorthanded. And it wont be the last

[magnax1]

KG had some generally shit teams, but we've seen how many guys carry weak teams to the Finals, or at least get them out of the first round? Especially guys who are in the top 20ish-30 of all time. Guys like AI, Kidd, Drexler etc etc. Specifically AI had some bad teams, but they were tailored to him. I'll admit that.
I hear this all the time, but who should he have beaten during that period? He averaged 25-15-5 during that 00-04 stretch, it's not like he didn't raise his play in the playoffs. They year Duncan made the finals with what was supposedly such an awful cast, KG played better vs LA in the playoffs then him. Yeah, AI made the finals, but he didn't have to play Kobe and Shaq's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs, one of Dirk's best Mavs team, the Pippen-Sabonis-Sheed Blazer, or really anything close to those teams to get there. KG did as much as he could, and as much as players that people generally think are much better then him did, but his cast was just not up to the task.

[Smoke117]

Again Pippen had that opportunity when the seemingly forgotten piece to the first 3 titles Horace left. He couldn't carry them anywhere. The Bulls and triangle were tailored for Pippen too.

The Triangle was not tailored to Pippen at all. It was a slow down, half court offense when he his main strength was in the open court. In a system where he was allowed to handle the ball more and be more of a real and play maker he could have averaged a lot more apg. Either way in that 95 season he had a team with guys like Will Purdue, BJ Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, Steve kerr, Bill Wellington, Dickey Simpkins, Jud Buechler playing considerable minutes and they were were all absolutely atrocious defensively and he still had managed to have that team 2nd in defense after not only now losing Jordan but now losing Grant. Like it was said they were 34-31 when jordan returned having won 8 out of their last 10 games. Ironically that game they lost when Jordan returned could basically be put on his chucking shoulders. They lost in OT his first game back where he went 7/28 for 19 points and Pippen went 11/20 for 31 points. Scottie did clearly not lose them Jordan's come back game, he lost that all by himself. Shit, in general Jordan played pretty shitty for the duration of his come back during that regular season. People get on Kobe's back but Jordan was launching up 23.8shot attempts to average 26.9pts which isn't even a .500ts%. He played much better in the playoffs, more Jordan like, but he was still awful in those 17 regular season games. The Bulls were already starting to get a winning streak going before he even returned and he was not the same offensive or the same defensive player. He gets way too much credit when the 95 Bulls were already moving up the ranks.

I'm not sure what opportunity Pippen was supposed to have in the 95 season. He had his best season as a pro, but when two out of three of the best players on your championship team (one being the best player in the league) are now gone and are replaced by Pete Meyers and Toni Kukoc I'm not sure what it is people expect. It's a testament to how dominant he was defensively that he he even had that team in playoff contention. Kukoc became a better player in 95 but he was a piss poor replacement for what Grant offered. He was basically an an extremely inferior soft Pippen who couldn't play any defense and made Scottie have to work twice as hard on the defensive end anytime they were on the court together.

[Xiao Yao You]

The Triangle was not tailored to Pippen at all.

Sure it was. What other system had ever put the ball in a 6'8" players hands outside showtime?


In a system where he was allowed to handle the ball more and be more of a real and play maker he could have averaged a lot more apg.

Maybe but where was this so called system at? It didn't and still doesn't exist outside the now dormant triangle.


Scottie did clearly not lose them Jordan's come back game, he lost that all by himself.

Trade the GOAT!


I'm not sure what it is people expect.

Shouldn't have expected much from the coattail rider.


It's a testament to how dominant he was defensively that he he even had that team in playoff contention.

Let's not forget the GOAT coach.

[Smoke117]

Sure it was. What other system had ever put the ball in a 6'8" players hands outside showtime?



Maybe but where was this so called system at? It didn't and still doesn't exist outside the now dormant triangle.



Trade the GOAT!



Shouldn't have expected much from the coattail rider.



Let's not forget the GOAT coach.

You don't even know what you are talking about. Phil Jackson was not some great defensive coach. You don't even know your facts or stories or anything. Look shit up. There are stories from players where players would go to the bench and Phil would ask a certain player why he switched on a defensive play and the only acceptable answer was "scottie told me to". Scottie Pippen was always the teams defensive leader. By the time 95 rolled around Phil Jackson was telling him nothing as far as defense goes. Not to mention Phil Jackson being the GOAT coach is incredibly debatable. GOAT or most fortunate to have the players he had? I'd be a great defensive coach too if I had Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, and Ron harper. ppft

[Xiao Yao You]

GOAT or most fortunate to have the players he had? I'd be a great defensive coach too if I had Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, and Ron harper. ppft

Sure he was fortunate as were they. They didn't win til he took over though they were on the verge. The Lakers OTOH had been swept two straight years by an aging Jazz team before he took over and like this year went in the shitter without him. Other than the Pistons before he became a loon no one could do anything with Rodman and the Bulls themselves were fortunate the last two years with him as a sideshow. Same with Artest in LA. What has Kobe done other than launch shots without Phil? Horace might have went the way of his bro Harvey if Phil hadn't put him in the position to succeed. He resurrected Harper's career.

[bizil]

Minus JWill is when they became good with Bibby.

The point u made has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION! And it wasn't just merely Bibby, it was the team improving as a whole with other key players. I was just stating that Webber for a lot of his run with the Kings was the actually the team's best passer from his PF spot. J Will was the only guy that was a better passer.

[bizil]

I hear this all the time, but who should he have beaten during that period? He averaged 25-15-5 during that 00-04 stretch, it's not like he didn't raise his play in the playoffs. They year Duncan made the finals with what was supposedly such an awful cast, KG played better vs LA in the playoffs then him. Yeah, AI made the finals, but he didn't have to play Kobe and Shaq's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs, one of Dirk's best Mavs team, the Pippen-Sabonis-Sheed Blazer, or really anything close to those teams to get there. KG did as much as he could, and as much as players that people generally think are much better then him did, but his cast was just not up to the task.

Awesome, Awesome, Awesome point! The West was a pure beast around that time! The East was WAYYY behind the West at that time. And KG was playing against arguably the golden era of PF's. I would venture to say that the Philly team AI got to the Finals might not even make the playoffs in the West at that time. Or they would be in that 6 to 8 seed area. So saying AI got his team to the Finals but KG didn't doesn't add up. No disrespect to AI cause he's an icon, but that Philly team historically is actually one of the weaker Eastern Conference Champion teams of all time. KG was in the midst of battling two dynasties in the Lakers and Spurs. And some of the best teams to NEVER make a Finals in those Blazer and Kings teams. And as u mentioned Dirk's Mavs teams were producing some great things as well.