How the 1994 Chicago Bulls Won 55 Without MJ from Basketball reference

[Lebron23]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7010

Good Read

http://www.ualrtrojans.com/fls/7400/virtualguide/men/img/pros/pete-myers.jpg

[305Baller]

Pippen was a definite 1b in the second 3peat

[Jotaro Durant]

always be shame that jordan has dpoy and scottie doesnt
jordan and kobe also got more alldefense teams then deserved

[Lebron23]

Why did the Bulls signed Pete Myers in the off season? A past his Prime Mark Aguirre >>> Pete Myers. He was waived by the Pistons and Clippers in the 1993-94 NBA Season.

[Lebron23]

always be shame that jordan has dpoy and scottie doesnt
jordan and kobe also got more alldefense teams then deserved


1990's David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon were superior defenders than Scottie Pippen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJD6j1eV9Pw

[Jotaro Durant]

1990's David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon were superior defenders than Scottie Pippen.
also superior to mj..........................

[Smoke117]

1990's David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon were superior defenders than Scottie Pippen.

Neither of them won DPOY in 95 when Scottie should have won it, Mutombo did just because he averaged 4bpg. Robinson and Dream were actually not as good defensively in 95 as they had been as they were concentrating on scoring more. As it often happens, the more you concentrate on scoring the less you you concentrate on your defense...that and the fact Robinson was playing with Rodman in 94 and 95. Robinson absolutely deserved the DPOY award in 96 though after Rodman left though and he had to anchor the Spurs alone again though. Mutombo has always been an overrated defensive player though. Sure he can block shots but he never had the foot speed and movement of Olajuwon or Robinson. He wasn't even good enough to lead the league in drating in 95 either, Scottie Pippen did as a SF. Ron Artest and Gary payton get DPOY Awards over much more deserving candidates and Pippen loses out to Mutombo, what a travesty. Mourning is in the same boat as Mutombo too, he was never as close to as good as Olajuwon or Robinson, he just managed to peak after they had fallen off though I still think Robinson had a case for DPOY in the 1998 and 1999 seasons.

[LABean]

always be shame that jordan has dpoy and scottie doesnt
jordan got more alldefense teams then deserved
:applause:

Agree. :applause: :cheers:

[bwink23]

Can someone explain how the Bulls won 67 in 1992 vs. 57 in 1993, with the same team?? :lol

Simply saying "2 less wins" doesn't say CRAP about the differences. If you think it's that simple, you have ZERO explanation for the same Bulls team to drop off 10 wins. :no:

[32jazz]

Why did the Bulls signed Pete Myers in the off season? A past his Prime Mark Aguirre >>> Pete Myers. He was waived by the Pistons and Clippers in the 1993-94 NBA Season.

Because Aguirre couldn't' play SG/defense?

The true question is why didn't the Bulls go after Derek Harper whom their arch nemesis Knicks trade for peanuts mid season? Instead the Bulls stay with Pete Myers :facepalm while the Knicks improve with Harper.

Also Pippen missed 10 games in which the Bulls went 3-7. If they reasonably go at least(6-4 or 7-3 with Pippen) the Bulls actually improve over previous season & win about 60 games or better.

The Bulls Nearly win 60 games without the man(MJ) who 'carried' the Bulls & 'went it alone' being replaced with a CBA journeyman Pete 'friggin'Myers:facepalm Teammates from previous season also shot collectively better fg% without MJ who supposedly 'made his teammates better':rolleyes:

[juju151111]

Because Aguirre couldn't' play SG/defense?

The true question is why didn't the Bulls go after Derek Harper whom their arch nemesis Knicks trade for peanuts mid season? Instead the Bulls stay with Pete Myers :facepalm while the Knicks improve with Harper.

Also Pippen missed 10 games in which the Bulls went 3-7. If they reasonably go at least(6-4 or 7-3 with Pippen) the Bulls actually improve over previous season & win about 60 games or better.

The Bulls Nearly win 60 games without the man(MJ) who 'carried' the Bulls & 'went it alone' being replaced with a CBA journeyman Pete 'friggin'Myers:facepalm Teammates from previous season also shot collectively better fg% without MJ who supposedly 'made his teammates better':rolleyes:
Go ask grant if. Mj didn't. Make him better and Mj leaving doesnt mean his 7 years of. Helping them goes away idiot. Grant said it himself. Mj instilled that mentality in his teammates. Go check Grant and Pippen in 89. And 90 ECF. Where are they? Tell me how that bulls won 67 gms in 92 then? Ur a dumbass

[32jazz]

Can someone explain how the Bulls won 67 in 1992 vs. 57 in 1993, with the same team?? :lol

Simply saying "2 less wins" doesn't say CRAP about the differences. If you think it's that simple, you have ZERO explanation for the same Bulls team to drop off 10 wins. :no:

Here come the MJ worshippers:oldlol:


It wasn't just '2 less wins' considering the Bulls went 3-7 without Pippen in 94 & Horace Grant missed 12 games as well.

With Pippen alone winning at normal rate(6-4 or 7-3 at least) the Bulls win nearly 60 games or more & that's without considering Grant missed a dozen as well.

So you replace the guy (MJ) who 'carried' the Bulls 'alone' & made them 'better':rolleyes: being replaced with a CBA journeyman 'Pete friggin' Myers & the Bulls nearly win 60 games(possibly more with Grant 12 games missed) & collectively shoot a better fg% :facepalm

Just imagine if MJ had been replaced with a legitimate NBA Sg? Magic was (Threatt ) in 92 & so was Bird(Reggie Lewis) in 88(?) when he went down with a back injury.

There teams had nowhere near the success with legitimate NBA replacements so I could imagine the tragedy of replacing them with CBA journeymen like Pete Myers.:facepalm

[unbreakable]

the reason the bulls won 55 games without MJ:

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/pippen.jpg

[32jazz]

the reason the bulls won 55 games without MJ:

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/pippen.jpg
:bowdown:

Don't forget Pippen also missed 10 games in '94 in Which the Bulls went 3-7(adjusted they go 6-4 or 7-3 at least & actually win nearly 60 games) plus Grant missed 12.

With CBA journeyman Pete friggin Myers in the lineup the Bulls actually would have won over 60 games.:facepalm

Just imagine if the Bulls had tried to trade for a legitimate NBA SG like Derek Harper who goes to their arch nemesis(Knicks) & help them improve?

They still take the Knicks to 7 despite all of that & the phantom foul on Pippen.

Had pippen not missed those 10 games(3-7) they get homecourt advantage over the Knicks as well.

[Bigsmoke]

they had three guys who were All Stars :lol

[32jazz]

they had three guys who were All Stars :lol

But, But....I thought MJ as 'carrying' these guys?:rolleyes: I'm a Magic fan who doesn't need pages of excuses . Magic's(even Birds) impact after retirement in '91 was swift & obvious with no need for explanations. :cheers:

[juju151111]

But, But....I thought MJ as 'carrying' these guys?:rolleyes: I'm a Magic fan who doesn't need pages of excuses . Magic's(even Birds) impact after retirement in '91 was swift & obvious with no need for explanations. :cheers:
Your a special one

[SwooshReturns]

More like the Bulls entire championship experienced cast felt slighted everyone was considering them underdogs heading into the '94 season and were considered to be "nothing" w/o MJ.

So they played their HEARTS out for an entire season, and wound up a 2nd round exit.

So basically w/o MJ, they were a championship level supporting cast, who couldn't get out of the 2nd round.

Which we all knew.

With Jordan they were multiple, consecutive championship winners.

You don't see the difference? Are you fellas THAT retarded?

:oldlol:

The next season in '95, with people taking them more seriously in the regular season (granted the loss of Horace), they played well below the expectation of the previous season.

Before ... GASP

Getting back MJ with 12 - 15 games left and automatically becoming what many considered to be a title contender.

[Soundwave]

But, But....I thought MJ as 'carrying' these guys?:rolleyes: I'm a Magic fan who doesn't need pages of excuses . Magic's(even Birds) impact after retirement in '91 was swift & obvious with no need for explanations. :cheers:

Pretty different situations there dude. Magic's retirement was *shocking*. A lot of people thought he'd probably be dead within 3-4 years. That's really what people felt at that time, imagine being a teammate and going with that into training camp.

The Bulls ... it was shocking too, but everyone sorta laughed off the rest of the Bulls and no one expected anything from them. Obviously that group reacted very differently, but I think these two situations are very different. For one, a lot of people though Jordan would come back by the All-Star break or playoffs.

The Celtics were just older than dirt. They would've declined either way, Bird's injuries/retirement just accelerated that by about 20x.

Taking a team to 55 wins isn't some massive accomplishment. The Bulls were still a good team. They added Kukoc and BJ Armstrong was a young player coming into his own. With those two + Grant + Pippen they had 4 legit options that could drop 15-20 points on any given night.

Grant Hill led a team with Lindsay frikkin' Hunter as the second best player to 54 wins in 96-97 too, lol, you don't hear anyone wanting to give him a medal for that.

[SwooshReturns]

The Celtics were just older than dirt. They would've declined either way, Bird's injuries/retirement just accelerated that by about 20x.
Losing two MAJOR potential 90's superstars to pre-mature deaths that would have made them well a contender well into the next decade to transition from the Bird generation to the 90's didn't help matters.

RIP

Len Bias
Reggie Lewis

[gengiskhan]

:applause:

Agree. :applause: :cheers:

stupid retarded kobe'tard

MJ is 3 x steals leader. Pip is not
MJ has done 100+ blks, 200+ stls TWICE & missed the 3rd time marginally. Pippen did it only once marginally

MJ was robbed of all-D 1st Team despite 100+ blks, 200+ stls in 1987.

Only wannabe overrated trash who doesnt deserve Last 3 all-D first team selection over Wade is Kobe.

Kobe fails to ever be in Top 3 Steals ever.
Kobe fails to lead NBA in Blk Shots by Guard despite beince 6'6" even Once.

[32jazz]

More like the Bulls entire championship experienced cast felt slighted everyone was considering them underdogs heading into the '94 season and were considered to be "nothing" w/o MJ.

So they played their HEARTS out for an entire season, and wound up a 2nd round exit.

So basically w/o MJ, they were a championship level supporting cast, who couldn't get out of the 2nd round.

Which we all knew.

With Jordan they were multiple, consecutive championship winners.

You don't see the difference? Are you fellas THAT retarded?

:oldlol:

The next season in '95, with people taking them more seriously in the regular season (granted the loss of Horace), they played well below the expectation of the previous season.

Before ... GASP

Getting back MJ with 12 - 15 games left and automatically becoming what many considered to be a title contender.

In '95 without MJ & Grant? :facepalm How well did MJ do before Grant & Pippen?

The things is the 94 Knicks were allowed to improve from the previous season & get a legit NBA SG(Derek Harper) ,but for some reason the Bulls (lowballing the Mavs:confusedshrug: ) who needed a Sg badly went to battle with Pete 'frigin' Myers.:facepalm

The phantom foul on Pippen, not going after a legit Sg like Harper(even let the Knicks get him) & the fact that the Bulls went 3-7 without Pippen costing them HCA against Knicks cost them another possible trip to the finals?

You don't think the Celtics who replaced Bird ,who went down(back), with Reggie Lewis(an actual NBA player) in '88 wanted to prove something?

Or Worthy & Scott,etc....wanted to prove something when Magic retired & was replaced by an actual NBA player(Threatt)?

Compare how poorly it went in Comparison.

Hell, Even replace Kobe with Smush Parker or better yet a lesser DLeague guy after 2008,09 or 10, lol.


Smush Parker/ D Leaguer plus D Fisher backcourt would get ugly quick.

[tmacattack33]

I hope anyone using the "Bulls won 55 without MJ in 1994" argument realize that they were 34-31 the following year before MJ said "I'm Baaaaaaack".

MJ came back and then they went 11-4 (whoops, Edit: 13-4). Just like that.

What is your defense of that?

[Soundwave]

I hope anyone using the "Bulls won 55 without MJ in 1994" argument realize that they were 34-31 the following year before MJ said "I'm Baaaaaaack".

MJ came back and then they went 11-4. Just like that.

What is your defense of that?

A pretty rusty MJ at that.

[bwink23]

In '95 without MJ & Grant? :facepalm How well did MJ do before Grant & Pippen?

The things is the 94 Knicks were allowed to improve from the previous season & get a legit NBA SG(Derek Harper) ,but for some reason the Bulls (lowballing the Mavs:confusedshrug: ) who needed a Sg badly went to battle with Pete 'frigin' Myers.:facepalm

The phantom foul on Pippen, not going after a legit Sg like Harper(even let the Knicks get him) & the fact that the Bulls went 3-7 without Pippen costing them HCA against Knicks cost them another possible trip to the finals?

You don't think the Celtics who replaced Bird ,who went down(back), with Reggie Lewis(an actual NBA player) in '88 wanted to prove something?

Or Worthy & Scott,etc....wanted to prove something when Magic retired & was replaced by an actual NBA player(Threatt)?

Compare how poorly it went in Comparison.


Where was Derek Harper in the playoffs when the Bulls LOST to the Knicks??? :facepalm

AGAIN TROLL...the Bulls added more than Pete Myers....:rolleyes:

[StateOfMind12]

I hope anyone using the "Bulls won 55 without MJ in 1994" argument realize that they were 34-31 the following year before MJ said "I'm Baaaaaaack".

So, what is your defense of what happened in those 65 games?
Horace Grant left the Bulls after the '94 season and signed with the Magic in the off-season. Horace Grant is one of the reasons why the Bulls lost to the Magic in the '95 playoffs anyways. He was money from mid-range especially in the '95 playoffs and the Bulls had lacked a PF. Bulls then signed Dennis Rodman in the following off-season to fulfill their PF spot.

[bwink23]

A pretty rusty MJ at that.


They actually went 13-4....

[hitmanyr2k]

More like the Bulls entire championship experienced cast felt slighted everyone was considering them underdogs heading into the '94 season and were considered to be "nothing" w/o MJ.

So they played their HEARTS out for an entire season, and wound up a 2nd round exit.

So basically w/o MJ, they were a championship level supporting cast, who couldn't get out of the 2nd round.

Which we all knew.

With Jordan they were multiple, consecutive championship winners.

You don't see the difference? Are you fellas THAT retarded?

:oldlol:

The next season in '95, with people taking them more seriously in the regular season (granted the loss of Horace), they played well below the expectation of the previous season.

Before ... GASP

Getting back MJ with 12 - 15 games left and automatically becoming what many considered to be a title contender.

Just the loss of Horace? How about Scott Williams? Bill Cartwright? Luc Longley (injury). You want to see how weak the Bulls frontline was in '95 and the scrubs they had replacing the title team players? It's amazing Pippen even had that team competitive defensively. He had to do this stuff all year just to keep that team afloat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

There's a reason the Bulls lost even after Jordan came back. They got dominated on the inside. The addition of Rodman took care of that weakness.

[Soundwave]

Just the loss of Horace? How about Scott Williams? Bill Cartwright? Luc Longley (injury). You want to see how weak the Bulls frontline was in '95 and the scrubs they had replacing the title team players? It's amazing Pippen even had that team competitive defensively. He had to do this stuff all year just to keep that team afloat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

There's a reason the Bulls lost even after Jordan came back. They got dominated on the inside. The addition of Rodman took care of that weakness.

I honestly think they would've beat Orlando even in 1995 had Jordan come back a little earlier to work out the kinks in his game.

They had the first game wrapped up and likely could've taken control over the young, easily rattled Magic after that.

[bwink23]

Horace Grant left the Bulls after the '94 season and signed with the Magic in the off-season. Horace Grant is one of the reasons why the Bulls lost to the Magic in the '95 ECF anyways. He was money from mid-range especially in the '95 ECF and the Bulls had lacked a PF. Bulls then signed Dennis Rodman in the following off-season to fulfill their PF spot.


And went from 47 wins to 72...with Jordan and Rodman....

Bulls from 1996-1998:


31-11 without Pippen.
38-9 without Rodman.

Jordan played EVERY GAME....:D

[tmacattack33]

Horace Grant left the Bulls after the '94 season and signed with the Magic in the off-season. Horace Grant is one of the reasons why the Bulls lost to the Magic in the '95 playoffs anyways. He was money from mid-range especially in the '95 playoffs and the Bulls had lacked a PF. Bulls then signed Dennis Rodman in the following off-season to fulfill their PF spot.

And yet MJ took that team to a 13-4 record to close out the season.

What is your defense of that?

[bwink23]

Just the loss of Horace? How about Scott Williams? Bill Cartwright? Luc Longley (injury). You want to see how weak the Bulls frontline was in '95 and the scrubs they had replacing the title team players? It's amazing Pippen even had that team competitive defensively. He had to do this stuff all year just to keep that team afloat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

There's a reason the Bulls lost even after Jordan came back. They got dominated on the inside. The addition of Rodman took care of that weakness.


Yeah, he was off for almost 2 years...:lol

[SwooshReturns]

How well did MJ do before Grant & Pippen?
He got to the 2nd round AND the ECF with Pippen and Grant being total SHELLS of what you think of them as in their prime.

Pippen wasn't a legit all-star until 1990.

Grant wasn't a really valuable player until 1992.


The phantom foul on Pippen
You do realize that was in game 5 or game 6, right?

Which meant a game or two else was played and the Bulls still lost.

Meaning, even though the call was ridiculous ... that's not what lost the Bulls the series.


not going after a legit Sg like Harper(even let the Knicks get him)
Harper was a PG.


You don't think the Celtics who replaced Bird ,who went down(back), with Reggie Lewis(an actual NBA player) in '88 wanted to prove something?
People weren't talking down the Celtics as much as they were the Bulls w/o Jordan.

Larry Bird's supporting cast had HOF'ers galore, and one of ... if not the best front lines to ever play the game together.

Jordan's cast prior to '94 was not considered that valuable.

And they weren't. It took 3 years of championship experience for the Bulls roster to be considered what it was.

[rodman91]

Kobe & Lebron stans sucking Pippen for agenda reasons. :facepalm

Pippen has never been 1b. He was great sidekick. His responsibilities got bigger but he was remain as sidekick to Jordan.

Jordan was better defender than Pippen almost middle of his career. Jordan's scoring power gets all attention but he was a defensive monster.

Bulls won 55 games without Jordan because they were well balanced,good team with a great player (Pippen) and couple of very good players.90's Bulls were one of the greatest teams in history, so 55 wins isn't so surprising.

[bwink23]

Kobe & Lebron stans sucking Pippen for agenda reasons. :facepalm

Pippen has never been 1b. He was great sidekick. His responsibilities got bigger but he was remain as sidekick to Jordan.

Jordan was better defender than Pippen almost middle of his career. Jordan's scoring power gets all attention but he was a defensive monster.

Bulls won 55 games without Jordan because they were well balanced,good team with a great player (Pippen) and couple of very good players.90's Bulls were one of the greatest teams in history, so 55 wins isn't so surprising.



That effort doesn't go unnoticed either...none of these dudes were watching Pippen since day one...:hammerhead:

[Nash]

Jordan leaves his team = 55 wins next season
Lebron leaves his team = Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Just goes to show what an amazing thing Lebron did with those scrubs and how you can't blame Lebron for not winning a championship.

[SwooshReturns]

And yet MJ took that team to a 13-4 record to close out the season.

What is your defense of that?
Exactly.

And was an MJ assist to Luc Longely in Game 6 of the ECSF, that was blown layup dunk by Longely from extending that series to 7 games against a significantly more talented team.

[Soundwave]

Jordan leaves his team = 55 wins next season
Lebron leaves his team = Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Just goes to show what an amazing thing Lebron did with those scrubs and how you can't blame Lebron for not winning a championship.

Also shows LeBron > Kobe

[SwooshReturns]

Jordan leaves his team = 55 wins next season
Lebron leaves his team = Worst losing streak in NBA history
So you're saying LeBron > Jordan?

:oldlol:

The cavs also lost head coach, confidence, Delonte West (2nd best player), Shaq, and countless others.

[bwink23]

Jordan leaves his team = 55 wins next season
Lebron leaves his team = Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Just goes to show what an amazing thing Lebron did with those scrubs and how you can't blame Lebron for not winning a championship.


Those scrubs that Lebron had weren't defending 3-peat champions with the GOAT coach either....:rolleyes:

[Soundwave]

LOL, Jordan lifting a barely .500 Bulls squad to 13-4 after barely touching a basketball for almost 2 years totally kills this whole theory that basically five Laker fans love to cling to. They have no come back for that.

[Nash]

So you're saying LeBron > Jordan?

:oldlol:

The cavs also lost head coach, confidence, Delonte West (2nd best player), Shaq, and countless others.
No, not at all. Jordan has 6 rings so there is no contest. All I was trying to say with that post is that people can't blame Lebron for not winning a championship with those guys. Has nothing to do with Jordan vs Lebron at all.

[hitmanyr2k]

He got to the 2nd round AND the ECF with Pippen and Grant being total SHELLS of what you think of them as in their prime.


And even then without rookie Pippen's big performance in do-or-die Game 5 Jordan and his video game stats are getting his ousted in the first round and he's receiving his MVP trophy at home ala Dirk. 10-1 run with Pippen out there leading the comeback with Jordan on the bench. Sounds familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

[32jazz]

Where was Derek Harper in the playoffs when the Bulls LOST to the Knicks??? :facepalm

AGAIN TROLL...the Bulls added more than Pete Myers....:rolleyes:

Suspended only 1or 2 games for a fight with JoJo English(only 2 playoff games he missed),but he was right there. Would have been nice if the Bulls had him instead of the Knicks as it could have possibly help them get Hca as well.

And Harper would have been far better than Pete 'friggin' Myers:no:

These are players MJ 'carried', 'made better' & 'went it alone' with:confusedshrug:

But when he retires his previous years teammates collectively shoot a better fg% & they nearly improve to 60 wins with Pete Myers holding down his position:facepalm & a rookie barely playing 20 mpg & had his minutes reduced in the post season(Kukoc 9ppg).

They did miss MJ's ref love in the playoffs since he would have never been called on the phantom foul like Pippen

[bwink23]

And even then without rookie Pippen's big performance in do-or-die Game 5 Jordan and his video game stats are getting his ousted in the first round and he's receiving his MVP trophy at home ala Dirk. 10-1 run with Pippen out there leading the comeback with Jordan on the bench. Sounds familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M


Cherry picking at it's finest.....:lol :hammerhead:


Did that 10-1 run happen in the 3RD QUARTER, LOL!!!! WEAK SAUCE

[SwooshReturns]

Just the loss of Horace? How about Scott Williams? Bill Cartwright? Luc Longley (injury). You want to see how weak the Bulls frontline was in '95 and the scrubs they had replacing the title team players? It's amazing Pippen even had that team competitive defensively. He had to do this stuff all year just to keep that team afloat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

There's a reason the Bulls lost even after Jordan came back. They got dominated on the inside. The addition of Rodman took care of that weakness.
Horace Grant was the most significant loss.

Cartwright at that point only brought size. He was replaced by Longely.

Yes, I also remember this from Pippen.

Mashburn puts 50 on Scottie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI

[Soundwave]

And even then without rookie Pippen's big performance in do-or-die Game 5 Jordan and his video game stats are getting his ousted in the first round and he's receiving his MVP trophy at home ala Dirk. 10-1 run with Pippen out there leading the comeback with Jordan on the bench. Sounds familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

LOL, I watched the Bulls every year from 89 onwards, there really was no playoff series I could look at and say "jeez, MJ played like crap, but Scottie really bailed him out in that series".

Jordan was pretty much always the best player. Yes, Scottie would hit the odd big shot. But it was basically the Jordan show through and through and anyone who's going to dispute that is simply playing (a very bad version of) revisionist history.

If Pip really wanted to make a name for himself as someone who carried the load, he should've lifted his game in the '95 ECSF vs. Orlando, the one time Jordan actually needed someone else to be the front runner ... but nope. No such luck.

[hitmanyr2k]

Horace Grant was the most significant loss.

Cartwright at that point only brought size. He was replaced by Longely.

Yes, I also remember this from Pippen.

Mashburn puts 50 on Scottie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI

Then a week later Pippen shut down Mash and put 36 on him in 3 qtrs :oldlol:

[SwooshReturns]

And even then without rookie Pippen's big performance in do-or-die Game 5 Jordan and his video game stats are getting his ousted in the first round and he's receiving his MVP trophy at home ala Dirk. 10-1 run with Pippen out there leading the comeback with Jordan on the bench. Sounds familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M
No one is saying Pippen didn't play a role or was non effective, didn't contribute. I'm just syaing he wasn't even close to a consistent all star caliber player. He showed flashes yes.

But what exactly are you arguing?

They wouldn't even be in that position if it wasn't for Jordan. MJ carried a team in both '88 and '89 to the Conference Finals w/o legit 2nd and 3rd options NEAR the caliber of 80's Celtics and Lakers.

So 1 stretch of Pippen playing well negates MJ carrying them with Pippen and Grant not being even shells of what you consider them to be (which is the point we were originally arguing)

Are you that ****ing dumb, or just trying to argue for the sake of it? Off your meds or something?

[SwooshReturns]

Then a week later Pippen shut down Mash and put 36 on him in 3 qtrs :oldlol:
He still had 50 put on him. I've never seen MJ, LeBron, Wade or hell even Kobe literally have the majority of 50 points from a non ELITE scorer drop 50 on them.

Yes Arenas dropped 60 on the Lakers in 2007. Only 15 of them were on Kobe, and it was towards the end of the game.

:oldlol:

[bwink23]

No one is saying Pippen didn't play a role or was non effective, didn't contribute. I'm just syaing he wasn't even close to a consistent all star caliber player. He showed flashes yes.

But what exactly are you arguing?

They wouldn't even be in that position if it wasn't for Jordan. MJ carried a team in both '88 and '89 to the Conference Finals w/o legit 2nd and 3rd options NEAR the caliber of 80's Celtics and Lakers.



So 1 stretch of Pippen playing well negates MJ carrying them with Pippen and Grant not being even shells of what you consider them to be (which is the point we were originally arguing)

Are you that ****ing dumb, or just trying to argue for the sake of it? Off your meds or something?






Like i said, he's just cherry picking....I'm sure wasn't old enough to watch Pippen's inconsistent butt back then....

10-1 in the 3RD QUARTER....:rolleyes:

Everyone does that.

[hitmanyr2k]

No one is saying Pippen didn't play a role or was non effective, didn't contribute. I'm just syaing he wasn't even close to a consistent all star caliber player. He showed flashes yes.

But what exactly are you arguing?

They wouldn't even be in that position if it wasn't for Jordan. MJ carried a team in both '88 and '89 to the Conference Finals w/o legit 2nd and 3rd options NEAR the caliber of 80's Celtics and Lakers.

So 1 stretch of Pippen playing well negates MJ carrying them with Pippen and Grant not being even shells of what you consider them to be (which is the point we were originally arguing)

Are you that ****ing dumb, or just trying to argue for the sake of it? Off your meds or something?


Pippen affected Jordan's legacy. You think anyone today is going to care about Jordan winning MVP and his big numbers blah blah blah if he's ousted in the first round AGAIN and getting that MVP sitting at home looking all sullen like Dirk?!? :oldlol: Pippen may have been raw but he still helped Jordan's legacy from taking a hit by showing up in a huge game.

[bwink23]

Pippen affected Jordan's legacy. You think anyone today is going to care about Jordan winning MVP and his big numbers blah blah blah if he's ousted in the first round AGAIN and getting that MVP sitting at home looking all sullen like Dirk?!? :oldlol: Pippen may have been raw but he still helped Jordan's legacy from taking a hit by showing up in a huge game.

No one said great players do it by themselves....it doesn't take away that Pippen was inconsistent, got benched his first year, and didn't blossom into a true #2 option until 1991....:lol

[SwooshReturns]

Pippen affected Jordan's legacy.
Who said otherwise? Me, specifically?


You think anyone today is going to care about Jordan winning MVP and his big numbers blah blah blah if he's ousted in the first round AGAIN
MJ carried the Bulls to the ECF in consecutive years w/o a fellow all-star. That's a fact.

That's what we were arguing originally.

What was your point again, exactly? First round exit, what?

One of those years he faced arguably the best team ever, I might add ... and put 63 on them.

He was in his sophmore and junior seasons in the NBA. You're really going to fault him for that and hold a grudge, while he's also easily the greater legendary talent than Scottie Pippen ... and make it sound as if Pippen was the main reason they were the team they became?

Are you nuts?


Pippen may have been raw but he still helped Jordan's legacy from taking a hit by showing up in a huge game.
LOL ... IDK even know what you're arguing. You just want to be confrontational or something?

No ons is saying Pippen didn't play a part of things. It wasn't 1 v.s. 5 out there.

MJ's legacy was just fine at that point. He was easily the best individual player in the game at the time, and had carried weak Bulls rosters that weren't ready for the spotlight until 1991.

Hell, if Pippen doesn't break down in the ECF in 1990, whether it's mentally or physically (headaches) ... give me a break.

The Bulls had the ability to beat the Pistons and get to the NBA Finals in 1990.

Pippen and the crew weren't ready yet, mentally.

[pauk]

"An interesting argument some have raised in response is that as great as Jordan was, his supporting cast was good enough that he didn't really need to "call for help" -- the Bulls actually won 55 games the year after he retired. Think about that: Chicago won 57 games in 1993, lost the greatest player ever (in the middle of his prime), and they declined by all of two wins the following season.

So there you have it -- thanks to some strong coaching, defensive cohesion, a passable offense, and a fair amount of luck, the 1994 Bulls finished their first Jordan-less season with only two fewer wins than they had in 1993 with His Airness. But does this mean Jordan was blind to the difference between his situation and LeBron's when he made his statement? Maybe. The Jordan ethos was always "going it alone" (remember "Michael and the Jordanaires"?), so it's certainly in the best interest of his continued mystique to maintain the perception of neither asking for nor needing "help".

Next season could alter the mainstream view of LeBron's legacy relative to MJ's, however, depending on how the Cavaliers weather James' departure. If, like the 1994 Bulls, they rise to the occasion on defense and post 50+ wins, it's going to look very bad for James, since a major rationale for his "decision" was the lack of a supporting cast in Cleveland. But if they completely fall apart without LeBron, the question could be raised about why Jordan criticized James' need for help when his own (supposedly equally inferior) teammates were able to survive far better without him."


Very well said.... and actually Lebrons team DID completely fall apart when he left, they had the worst record in the NBA immediately....

[SwooshReturns]

and actually Lebrons team DID completely fall apart when he left, they had the worst record in the NBA immediately....
They didn't lose anything else besides LeBron?

[tmacattack33]

They didn't lose anything else besides LeBron?


Not for the first 30 games of the season...in which Cleveland went 6-24 or something. In those 30 games, their lineup was very much so the same team as the 2010 team minus Lebron.

[32jazz]

They didn't lose anything else besides LeBron?

The LeBron comparison may be unfair(too many changes overall I think? Nit too familiar), but Magic in '91, Bird in '88 or even D Rob in '96 may be a bit better examples.

Magic & Bird(both went down abruptly like MJ) , but they were at least replaced with NBA players.

[pauk]

They didn't lose anything else besides LeBron?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2011.html

Not really.... :confusedshrug:

[SwooshReturns]

Not for the first 30 games of the season...in which Cleveland went 6-24 or something. In those 30 games, their lineup was very much so the same team as the 2010 team minus Lebron.
Not true ... they lost their starting center (Shaq), their starting PG / SG and 2nd best player mind you (David West) ...

That's two of the five major positions, not including LeBron.

You also can't undermind the fact they lost their head coach of the past 5 seasons.

You also can't project the impact psychologically of losing your franchises greatest player to free agency, getting nothing in return, and the feeling of being absolute losers without him

To insinuate the Cavs plummeted simply because of the loss of LeBron is ridiculous.

And unlike other situation when a superstar moves, this wasnt' a sign and trade. He simply packed his things, and left. Leaving a gaping hole in a roster that was built to display LEBRON'S strengths, and NONE of his weaknesses.

Obviously they were going to suck. Mind you, they also stayed fairly competitive until LeBron came to town with the Heat and trashed them at home.

[Da_Realist]

Pippen affected Jordan's legacy. You think anyone today is going to care about Jordan winning MVP and his big numbers blah blah blah if he's ousted in the first round AGAIN and getting that MVP sitting at home looking all sullen like Dirk?!? :oldlol: Pippen may have been raw but he still helped Jordan's legacy from taking a hit by showing up in a huge game.

Kukoc affected Pippen's legacy. Without that gamewinning shot against NY in Game 3 to pull within 2-1, the Knicks likely finish them off in 4 or 5. What would the story of Pippen be then? He quit and folded in the playoffs???

** Remember, the Knicks made it their focus to shut Pippen down in the fourth quarter of the 94 Semis. And they laughed about it and made fun of him for his 4th quarter failures **

No one wins by himself.

[pauk]

Not true ... they lost their starting center (Shaq), their starting PG / SG and 2nd best player mind you (David West) ...

That's two of the five major positions, not including LeBron.

You also can't undermind the fact they lost their head coach of the past 5 seasons.

You also can't project the impact psychologically of losing your franchises greatest player to free agency, getting nothing in return, and the feeling of being absolute losers without him

To insinuate the Cavs plummeted simply because of the loss of LeBron is ridiculous.

And unlike other situation when a superstar moves, this wasnt' a sign and trade. He simply packed his things, and left. Leaving a gaping hole in a roster that was built to display LEBRON'S strengths, and NONE of his weaknesses.

Obviously they were going to suck. Mind you, they also stayed fairly competitive until LeBron came to town with the Heat and trashed them at home.

Losing or adding a random scrub (yes even Shaq i considered a scrub at that stage in his career) after Lebron leaves your team will not help you in any way... sorry....

and no... David West was not in Cleveland when Lebron was there.... he actually never was in Cleveland lol... you mean Delonte West? LMAO.... yea, huge loss...

No matter how you twist and turn it IT WONT HELP YOU........ Lebron actually went to the Finals with an even worse Cavs team than the one in 2009-10..... he went there with his "sidekick" being Boobie freakin Gibson....

[Smoke117]

they had three guys who were All Stars :lol

Bj Armstrong may have been put on the all star but he was no all star player. All that clown did was take jump shots and play terrible defense. He couldn't run the point. The fact that he was all the all star team just goes to show how weak the guards in the east were and how much good will the Bulls were getting. Hell even Horace Grant was barely an all star and that mainly because of his defense and rebounding he can at least legitimately make a case, but both Grant and Armstrong were role players not star players and really had no business making any all star teams.

Like I said earlier, people need to get over this illusion that Jordan led the Bulls back from the brink in 95. The Bulls were already building themselves back up having won 8 of 10 games before he returned and as I said Jordan frankly played like shit in the regular season games he played. Guys taking 24 shot attempts to average 27 points...thats atrocious. If not for that explosion vs the Knicks he probably wouldn't have even shot over 40% for those 17 games he played (he shot .411%) and he didn't even manage to shoot over a .500ts%. He was not close to the same defensive player at that as he was not in anything close to real basketball shape. He had a great playoffs, but Pippen was still the best player on the team during the regular season and whether Jordan came back or not the foundation of that team was defense and that didn't change in 17 games and Pippen was the one who anchored that defense. Only Michael Jordan could come back and play like garbage and get all the credit for a teams success.

Credit Michael Jordan with this though, he worked his ass off in the off season and came back in the 96 season at as high or near as high as level as he was pre-retirement. Doesn't change the fact that he he was a chucking fool when he returned in 1995 though.

[pauk]

one more thing Swoosh.... This Cavs team today or the Cavs team last season is the best Lebronless Cavs team since some decade....

What im trying to say is that if you simply put Lebron back into this Cavs lineup... Lebron would had more help then he actually ever had....

Kyrie Erving? Casspi? Jesus.... Kyrie would easily be the best teammate Lebron ever played with in Cleveland.... Lebron would get this exact team you see today to the best record in the NBA, win MVP, average a triple double and could have been just enough of help to at least get to the Finals and not get swept.....

Lebron was patient for 7 years, he never complained, whined or anything.... if there is one guy you want to be mad about, then its Dan Gilbert...

[Bigsmoke]

SwooshReturns is funny as hell.

Delonte West was coming off the bench and he's acting like he was some superstar or something. :lol

Shaq played like 23 minutes per game and he played in like 50 of them... yeah... big lost

kblaze already killed this topic. The Cavs were good because of LeBron and they suck because they do not have LeBron anymore. Plain and simple.

[Round Mound]

I still don`t understand (and i was there to see it) how Pippen never won a Defensive Player of the Year Award (Robbed by Mutombo who was a Great Shot Blocker but no the ALL Around Defender Pippen was in 94-95).

Such as Shame a Disgrace for the only SF to Lead the League in Defensive Rating in the NBA since Bird

Defensive Rating

1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10)


Year Lg Player DRtg Tm (Play-Offs)

2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.74 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Tyrus Thomas 92.52 CHI
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Dan Roundfield 93.00 ATL
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Rich Kelley 91.33 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

[SwooshReturns]

Delonte West was coming off the bench and he's acting like he was some superstar or something. :lol
If you understand basketball, you'd know he was still their 2nd best player.

[OldSchoolBBall]

And even then without rookie Pippen's big performance in do-or-die Game 5 Jordan and his video game stats are getting his ousted in the first round and he's receiving his MVP trophy at home ala Dirk. 10-1 run with Pippen out there leading the comeback with Jordan on the bench. Sounds familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

The game was tied midway through the 3rd, then the Cavs got a 6-7 point lead, then the Bulls went on a 10-1 run to take a 3 point lead at the end of the 3rd. Pippen scored 3 baskets the entire quarter (all in transition, mind you, and only one or two of which were during the run) and made a couple of nice defensive plays. Jordan also had a few baskets and made defensive plays (not shown in this video, but watch the full game).

Only in Pro-Pippen la-la land does this constitute Pippen "taking over the game" and "leading a 10-1 run." Keep sipping that Pippen Kool-Aid and thinking that it was his comparatively meager contributions and not Jordan's 45.2 pts/5.4 reb/4.8 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG that won them that series. :oldlol: Stop acting as if he did something spectacular, or as if games don't have normal ebbs and flows.

[Bigsmoke]

If you understand basketball, you'd know he was still their 2nd best player.

that would be Jamison or Mo Shots Mo Problems aka Mo Williams.

you are not doing anything but adding to the case on how amazing LeBron truly is by winning back to back 60+ games with a scrub called delonte West coming off the bench as sidekick.

[SwooshReturns]

that would be Jamison or Mo Shots Mo Problems aka Mo Williams.
No they weren't ... Delonte West was their 2nd best player.


you are not doing anything but adding to the case on how amazing LeBron truly is by winning back to back 60+ games with a scrub called delonte West coming off the bench as sidekick.
I'm not taking anything away from LeBron's greatness. He was just that ... great. West however is not a scrub. Not a superstar, hardly a scrub. Learn the game. Not everyone is superstar or bum.

Delonte is a guy you can win with ...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Very well said.... and actually Lebrons team DID completely fall apart when he left, they had the worst record in the NBA immediately....

Jordan's SPM in 1993 was higher than Lebron's was in 2010, and that wasn't even MJ's peak.

[hitmanyr2k]

The game was tied midway through the 3rd, then the Cavs got a 6-7 point lead, then the Bulls went on a 10-1 run to take a 3 point lead at the end of the 3rd. Pippen scored 3 baskets the entire quarter (all in transition, mind you, and only one or two of which were during the run) and made a couple of nice defensive plays. Jordan also had a few baskets and made defensive plays (not shown in this video, but watch the full game).

Only in Pro-Pippen la-la land does this constitute Pippen "taking over the game" and "leading a 10-1 run." Keep sipping that Pippen Kool-Aid and thinking that it was his comparatively meager contributions and not Jordan's 45.2 pts/5.4 reb/4.8 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG that won them that series. :oldlol: Stop acting as if he did something spectacular, or as if games don't have normal ebbs and flows.

Who said Pippen took over? He just showed flashes of what was to come on both ends. The main reason Doug Collins decided to start Pippen in the first place was because good things seemed to happen for the team when he was on the floor. The funny thing is Jordan argued with Collins that Brad Sellers start over Pippen :oldlol: Good thing for Mike that Doug had better sense. You can point out Jordan's golly-gee-whiz numbers all you want but like I said before, if Pippen doesn't step up in the first start of his career Jordan is going home in the first round...again. And today people are talking about him as one of the few MVPs getting his trophy via satellite feed like Dirk lol. Dude was still trying to win his first playoff series at the time.

[bwink23]

Who said Pippen took over? He just showed flashes of what was to come on both ends. The main reason Doug Collins decided to start Pippen in the first place was because good things seemed to happen for the team when he was on the floor. The funny thing is Jordan argued with Collins that Brad Sellers start over Pippen :oldlol: Good thing for Mike that Doug had better sense. You can point out Jordan's golly-gee-whiz numbers all you want but like I said before, if Pippen doesn't step up in the first start of his career Jordan is going home in the first round...again. And today people are talking about him as one of the few MVPs getting his trophy via satellite feed like Dirk lol. Dude was still trying to win his first playoff series at the time.


And you decided that from a 6,7 point lead in the 3rd quarter, LOL!!!

what a MORON...:hammerhead:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who said Pippen took over? He just showed flashes of what was to come on both ends. The main reason Doug Collins decided to start Pippen in the first place was because good things seemed to happen for the team when he was on the floor. The funny thing is Jordan argued with Collins that Brad Sellers start over Pippen :oldlol: Good thing for Mike that Doug had better sense. You can point out Jordan's golly-gee-whiz numbers all you want but like I said before, if Pippen doesn't step up in the first start of his career Jordan is going home in the first round...again. And today people are talking about him as one of the few MVPs getting his trophy via satellite feed like Dirk lol. Dude was still trying to win his first playoff series at the time.

That's such a bullshit, biased way of looking at things. You can't look at a game that way. That's like saying that if any player who had a decent game didn't have a decent game, the outcome would be different. Complete and utter bullshit, especially when things happen in the third quarter and there wasn't a huge deficit to begin with (~6 points). Players and teams adjust their game to the extant conditions. It's not like they were down 6 with 2:30 to go in the game and Pippen scored 3-4 baskets down the stretch. GTFOH with this nonsense. :oldlol:

[hitmanyr2k]

And you decided that from a 6,7 point lead in the 3rd quarter, LOL!!!

what a MORON...:hammerhead:

I already crowned you in your own thread and you ran away like a bitch :oldlol: You're irrelevant now.

[SwooshReturns]

That's such a bullshit, biased way of looking at things. You can't look at a game that way. That's like saying that if any player who had a decent game didn't have a decent game, the outcome would be different. Complete and utter bullshit, especially when things happen in the third quarter and there wasn't a huge deficit to begin with (~6 points). Players and teams adjust their game to the extant conditions. It's not like they were down 6 with 2:30 to go in the game and Pippen scored 3-4 baskets down the stretch. GTFOH with this nonsense. :oldlol:
LOL ... exactly.

If Boobie Gibson doesn't shoot LIGHT OUT down the stretch of game 6 v.s. the Pistons, does he see the light of day in the Finals, even though he shot like 41 percent for the series?

:oldlol:

Does Cleveland make it to a game 7 v.s. the 2008 Celtics w/o LeBron's horrific supporting cast showing up in spades, especially on the road where LeBron tossed up brick to the tune of 39 percent shooting?

[bwink23]

I already crowned you in your own thread and you ran away like a bitch :oldlol: You're irrelevant now.


I'm still there, and right here....bring it on Mr. "Jordan would have lost if not for a 10-1 run in the 3rd quarter" LOL :facepalm

[SwooshReturns]

I'm still there, and right here....bring it on Mr. "Jordan would have lost if not for a 10-1 run in the 3rd quarter" LOL :facepalm
Even though homie was averaging like 45 points for the series ...

:oldlol:

[hitmanyr2k]

Even though homie was averaging like 45 points for the series ...

:oldlol:

Yeah, because Jordan didn't score like crazy when he was going 1-9 in previous playoffs :oldlol:

[SwooshReturns]

Yeah, because Jordan didn't score like crazy when he was going 1-9 in previous playoffs :oldlol:
His team was even worse in those seasons.

:oldlol:

Coked out Orlando Woodridge was his 2nd best player.

[Da_Realist]

Pippen had the luxury of a 6 year maturation process before he was the leader of the team.

Jordan came into a situation with no winning experience, drug problems, a revolving door of coaching staffs and a losing mentality.

Not even a remotely similar situation. (Imagine rookie Pippen on that team instead of Jordan.) 1-9 is going to happen when you're overmatched and trying to change the mentality and expectations of a franchise all while playing a good Bucks team in 85 and two championship level Celtics teams after that.

By 94, the Bulls had stability, championship experience, low level of expectation and a point to prove.

[SwooshReturns]

Pippen had the luxury of a 6 year maturation process before he was the leader of the team.

Jordan came into a situation with no winning experience, drug problems, a revolving door of coaching staffs and a losing mentality.

Not even a remotely similar situation. (Imagine rookie Pippen on that team instead of Jordan.) 1-9 is going to happen when you're overmatched and trying to change the mentality and expectations of a franchise all while playing a good Bucks team in 85 and two championship level Celtics teams after that.

By 94, the Bulls had stability, championship experience, low level of expectation and a point to prove.
Context.

Thank you.

[sekachu]

In '95 without MJ & Grant? :facepalm How well did MJ do before Grant & Pippen?

The things is the 94 Knicks were allowed to improve from the previous season & get a legit NBA SG(Derek Harper) ,but for some reason the Bulls (lowballing the Mavs:confusedshrug: ) who needed a Sg badly went to battle with Pete 'frigin' Myers.:facepalm

The phantom foul on Pippen, not going after a legit Sg like Harper(even let the Knicks get him) & the fact that the Bulls went 3-7 without Pippen costing them HCA against Knicks cost them another possible trip to the finals?

You don't think the Celtics who replaced Bird ,who went down(back), with Reggie Lewis(an actual NBA player) in '88 wanted to prove something?

Or Worthy & Scott,etc....wanted to prove something when Magic retired & was replaced by an actual NBA player(Threatt)?

Compare how poorly it went in Comparison.

Hell, Even replace Kobe with Smush Parker or better yet a lesser DLeague guy after 2008,09 or 10, lol.


Smush Parker/ D Leaguer plus D Fisher backcourt would get ugly quick.



Who did they played against when the bull went 3-7 without pippen? weak ass team?