Scottie Pippen was NOT a 1B option

[bwink23]

Aside from a particular someone who believes Scottie could be a 1A option, he wasn't even a 1B option. People want to sight the "55 win team" as if Scottie took trash to new heights or something....this was a 3-PEAT team with a GOAT coach in a proven system with now-experienced players in BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant. These guys had been together for a long time and proven themselves on the biggest stage. Scottie literally didn't do whole lot better than he did any other year, his team simply stepped to the plate as well. Scottie is getting far too much credit.

Just look at Phil's stance on the issue...Toni Kukoc made 4 game winners for the Bulls in 1994, one of them in the Knicks series. Phil drew up a play for Kukoc, which showed Phil's confidence in Scottie's "#1 option" abilities.....Scottie cried and took a seat, that's right....Took a seat in a heated and critical playoff game....:facepalm :facepalm NO EXCUSES for that....that's your best player abandoning your team.

Let's not ignore the additions the Bulls made...Pete Myers was a SOLID defender, which this Bulls team won on defense, so he was an excellent fit on ONE SIDE of the ball. Throw in Europe's best player at the time in Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, and Luc Longley ( players who later would prove their worth with a 3-PEAT of their own), and you still have a formidable team, even minus the game's best all-time player. Is it really surprising at all?

Scottie was great, but looked better simply cuz he wasn't overshadowed on the floor. His team deserves just as much credit for stepping up as he did. BJ and Horace were having all-star seasons. Kukoc was clutch, and the role players did what they do. Does their success make Scottie a "#1 option", No....even Phil himself didn't believe it.

Too many fools are comparing them to the 1993 Bulls....try comparing them to the 1992 team and see what you get, cuz the 1993 Bulls were WORN OUT. Without Jordan, there wasn't that pressure to succeed where anything less than a championship would be failure. No one expected one, and it didn't happen. A second round exit to a short-handed Knicks squad isn't a championship no matter how you want to slice it.

The Bulls in 1992 won 67 games to 57 in 1993....with essentially the same team, same core. So were they really that much worse or no???:confusedshrug: Now take a look at the Bulls in 1995 when you strip away the core from the original 3-PEAT. 34-31. Not impressive.

Giving Scottie all the credit is STUPID, when he had much to work with. Look what he did when he went to Houston, and then to the Blazers....NUFF SAID. Scottie was a great #2, but he was NEVER a #1 option player, and never showed he could be. He didn't put crappy teams on his back for stretches, he's never had a crappy team :lol

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan stans once again ruining basketball 1 post at a time...

F' ing sad how you throw Pippen under the bus to try to prop up MJ..

Pippen was a top 3 player of the 90's and one of the best allaround players in NBA History...

still made the Bull's title contenders with the "baldheaded Dominique Wilkins around"

MJ never had a winning season and was 1 - 10 in the playoff's without Pippen




deal wit it






next

[ganja0710]

U dumb brah? Or is u mad brah?

:roll:

[bwink23]

U dumb brah? Or is u mad brah?

:roll:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeX9BXnD6D4

[iamgine]

lol @ using pete myers to strenghten argument. :lol

[PJR]

Excellent post. MJ da gawd made Pippen.

[bwink23]

lol @ using pete myers to strenghten argument. :lol


Was he the ONLY guy used??? :confusedshrug:

[iamgine]

Was he the ONLY guy used??? :confusedshrug:
was he? :confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

was he? :confusedshrug:


"Let's not ignore the additions the Bulls made...Pete Myers was a SOLID defender, which this Bulls team won on defense, so he was an excellent fit on ONE SIDE of the ball. Throw in Europe's best player at the time in Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, and Luc Longley ( players who later would prove their worth with a 3-PEAT of their own), and you still have a formidable team, even minus the game's best all-time player. Is it really surprising at all?"

You can sit down now....:rolleyes:

[32jazz]

:roll:

The Bulls went 3-7 without PIPPEN(6-4 or 7-3 adjustment) & Grant missed 12 games as well so the Bulls of 94 win possibly 60 games at least or more without injured Pippen(plus Grant).

You know MJ fans are desperate when they try to talk up a CBA journeyman like Pete 'friggin ' Myers:facepalm

As well as shaky rookie like Kukoc who shot 27% from 3 & about 41% overall:facepalm

Kukoc was so great in his rookie season that Phil cut his minutes to about 19 mpg for the playoffs.

The intellectual dishonesty with team '95 when the Bulls lost Grant as well to Orlando.:facepalm

34-31? . How well did MJ do without both Pippen & Grant?:oldlol: That would be a fairer assessment with the 95 team .

MJ worshippers are strange in that they talk up CBA jorneymen like Pete 'friggin' Myers:oldlol: & shaky rookies like Kukoc (who was reduced to 18 mpg in postseason) & then criticize a 1st ballot HOF teammates like Pippen?:facepalm

[32jazz]

Jordan stans once again ruining basketball 1 post at a time...

F' ing sad how you throw Pippen under the bus to try to prop up MJ..

Pippen was a top 3 player of the 90's and one of the best allaround players in NBA History...

still made the Bull's title contenders with the "baldheaded Dominique Wilkins around"

MJ never had a winning season and was 1 - 10 in the playoff's without Pippen





deal wit it






next

Not only do they throw a 1st ballot HOF'er like Pippen under the bus they embarrassingly try to talk up a CBA journeyman Pete 'griffin' Myers who replaced MJ:facepalm

Just imagine how ugly the 2009/10 Lakers would have been had the Lakers replaced Kobe with Smush Parker or a lesser D League player? A Smush Parker/ Derek Fisher backcourt would have gotten ugly:facepalm

[bwink23]

:roll:

The Bulls went 3-7 without PIPPEN(6-4 or 7-3 adjustment) & Grant missed 12 games as well so the Bulls of 94 win possibly 60 games at least or more without injured Pippen(plus Grant).

You know MJ fans are desperate when they try to talk up a CBA journeyman like Pete 'friggin ' Myers:facepalm

As well as shaky rookie like Kukoc who shot 27% from 3 & about 41% overall:facepalm

Kukoc was so great in his rookie season that Phil cut his minutes to about 19 mpg for the playoffs.

The intellectual dishonesty with team '95 when the Bulls lost Grant as well to Orlando.:facepalm

34-31? . How well did MJ do without both Pippen & Grant?:oldlol: That would be a fairer assessment with the 95 team .

MJ worshippers are strange in that they talk up CBA jorneymen like Pete 'friggin' Myers:oldlol: & shaky rookies like Kukoc (who was reduced to 18 mpg in postseason) & then criticize a 1st ballot HOF teammates like Pippen?:facepalm



the Bulls were 1-3 without Jordan in 1993, "adjust" that one....:lol .....also 0-2 in 1992, for a total of 1-5 without MJ....Please ADJUST.

Grant gone = already mentioned, you = FAIL.

Pete Myers, with additions already mentioned, you = :hammerhead:


"Shaky" Kukoc won 4 games for the Bulls, including a playoff one in which Phil had more confidence in his "shakiness" than Scottie Pippen.....:roll:


Moving along.

[iamgine]

"Let's not ignore the additions the Bulls made...Pete Myers was a SOLID defender, which this Bulls team won on defense, so he was an excellent fit on ONE SIDE of the ball. Throw in Europe's best player at the time in Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, and Luc Longley ( players who later would prove their worth with a 3-PEAT of their own), and you still have a formidable team, even minus the game's best all-time player. Is it really surprising at all?"


that's it? :roll:

[bwink23]

that's it? :roll:


4 more players that earned 3 rings on a team with the NBA's ALL-TIME record....what more you want ??


:hammerhead:

[juju151111]

This shit is funny. Can alpha explain wat pip did in 88-90 but choke and get owned by pistons. Why are people acting like 91 pippen is has gud has 94 pippe:facepalm n and grant.

[SFMF]

I don't remember '1B option' Pippen ever taking a game-winning shot as much as the '1A option'. Is this really worthy of a discussion? because clearly there should not be a debate over this.

[Legends66NBA7]

To be honest, we'll never really know how good Pippen as the first option would be, long-term...

Sure he got the green light when Jordan was out of the way and he did a great job of it, but outside of that and his work with the Rockets and Blazers... it's still pretty much up in the air.

He's the perfect second option player. Anything above that is anybody's guess...

[bwink23]

1996 Bulls without Pippen = 5-0.

1998 Bulls without Pippen = 26-11.

Bulls in 3 years without Dennis = 38-9.

The only constant here is Michael Jordan, who played in EVERY game...

Someone please "adjust" this....:confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

1996 Bulls without Pippen = 5-0.

1998 Bulls without Pippen = 26-11.

Bulls in 3 years without Dennis = 38-9.

The only constant here is Michael Jordan, who played in EVERY game...

Someone please "adjust" this....:confusedshrug:

Are you Bulls fan, bwink ? Just curious.

And to answer your question, yes, the Bulls were winning games, they had the talent to do so...

But they weren't going to win in the playoffs without Dennis or Scottie (or both for that matter), regardless of what their regular season record without them was.... The playoffs are a different beast.

It's a moot point.

[32jazz]

the Bulls were 1-3 without Jordan in 1993, "adjust" that one....:lol .....also 0-2 in 1992, for a total of 1-5 without MJ....Please ADJUST.

Grant gone = already mentioned, you = FAIL.

Pete Myers, with additions already mentioned, you = :hammerhead:


"Shaky" Kukoc won 4 games for the Bulls, including a playoff one in which Phil had more confidence in his "shakiness" than Scottie Pippen.....:roll:


Moving along.
:facepalm

Kinda sad when MJ worshippers only argument is to talk up a CBA journeyman like Pete Myers & a rookie playing less than 20 mpg (6th in the rotation 41% & 27% from 3) & then talk down Pippen.

There would be no need for excuses if MJ 'carried' these guys as his worshippers claim.

It is obvious with no longwinded, bs excuses what impact Magic had before abruptly retiring & being replaced by a legitimate NBA player(Threatt) . Bird was replaced with Reggie Lewis & not a CBA journeyman neither & it's obvious what happens with no bs explanations excuses.:oldlol:

I could go on with NBA greats abrupt absence(injuries or retirements) & the impact was painfully obvious.

Not so much with MJ :no: Although they did miss MJ's ref love since he should have never been whistled on the phantom foul in the playoffs like Pippen was.

[La Frescobaldi]

where was Horace.

where was Cartwright.

why don't you address Horace.

why no talk about the Bulls Center leaving.

why no talk about Horace.

nobody needs a center that knows the triangle.

why such a feeble thread that doesn't mention where Horace was.

what about Horace FREAKING Grant.

what about Bill FREAKING Cartwright.

what about THREE FREAKING STARTERS LEAVING.

[jlip]

Aside from a particular someone who believes Scottie could be a 1A option, he wasn't even a 1B option.


"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

From 1996
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

[bwink23]

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

From 1996
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm


That's one writer's opinion......:lol We all have them.

Scottie is not a "1A" option, nor is he a "1B" option...he was simply a great second option....:hammerhead:

[bwink23]

where was Horace.

where was Cartwright.

why don't you address Horace.

why no talk about the Bulls Center leaving.

why no talk about Horace.

nobody needs a center that knows the triangle.

why such a feeble thread that doesn't mention where Horace was.

what about Horace FREAKING Grant.

what about Bill FREAKING Cartwright.

what about THREE FREAKING STARTERS LEAVING.


That was in 1995 when they were 34-31.....:facepalm


Let's not get lost of the ADDITIONS the Bulls had made. Additions who were pivotal in 3 more consecutive championships.....where are those guys?? :rolleyes:

[bwink23]

"Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

From 1996
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/434582-todays-scottie-pippen-the-five-best-second-options-in-the-nba-now

[32jazz]

where was Horace.

where was Cartwright.

why don't you address Horace.

why no talk about the Bulls Center leaving.

why no talk about Horace.

nobody needs a center that knows the triangle.

why such a feeble thread that doesn't mention where Horace was.

what about Horace FREAKING Grant.

what about Bill FREAKING Cartwright.

what about THREE FREAKING STARTERS LEAVING.

The fact that these numerous excuses from the Cult of MJ are even necessary proves the myths surrounding MJ are bs(''carried' Bulls /'went it alone'/ 'made teammates better':rolleyes: )

Magic on the other hand impact needs no explanations/excuses:cheers:

Magic abruptly retires from NBA Finalist Lakers & is replaced by a legitimate NBA guard in Sedale Threatt & not a CBA Journeyman like Pete 'friggin' Myers (who MJ worshippers are talking up:facepalm ).

Despite that nearly every single player(Worthy,Scott,Divac,Perkins,etc...) saw their fg% drop individually & collectively as teammates.
The Lakers dropped barely above .500 & are crushed in the 1st rd.

AC Green was the only player of note who really maintained his fg% without Magic because he was a 'garbage' scorer & few if any plays designed for him.

[bwink23]

:facepalm

Kinda sad when MJ worshippers only argument is to talk up a CBA journeyman like Pete Myers & a rookie playing less than 20 mpg (6th in the rotation 41% & 27% from 3) & then talk down Pippen.

There would be no need for excuses if MJ 'carried' these guys as his worshippers claim.

It is obvious with no longwinded, bs excuses what impact Magic had before abruptly retiring & being replaced by a legitimate NBA player(Threatt) . Bird was replaced with Reggie Lewis & not a CBA journeyman neither & it's obvious what happens with no bs explanations excuses.:oldlol:

I could go on with NBA greats abrupt absence(injuries or retirements) & the impact was painfully obvious.

Not so much with MJ :no: Although they did miss MJ's ref love since he should have never been whistled on the phantom foul in the playoffs like Pippen was.


Could you do me a favor and adjust the Bulls without Jordan going 1-5 in 92,93.....and while your at it adjust 31-11 as well from 96-98 without Pippen....:lol

[bwink23]

The fact that these numerous excuses from the Cult of MJ are even necessary proves the myths surrounding MJ are bs(''carried' Bulls /'went it alone'/ 'made teammates better':rolleyes: )

Magic on the other hand impact needs no explanations/excuses:cheers:

Magic abruptly retires from NBA Finalist Lakers & is replaced by a legitimate NBA guard in Sedale Threatt & not a CBA Journeyman like Pete 'friggin' Myers (who MJ worshippers are talking up:facepalm ).

Despite that nearly every single player(Worthy,Scott,Divac,Perkins,etc...) saw their fg% drop individually & collectively as teammates.
The Lakers dropped barely above .500 & are crushed in the 1st rd.

AC Green was the only player of note who really maintained his fg% without Magic because he was a 'garbage' scorer & few if any plays designed for him.


Horace Grant


[B]Did Scottie Pippen

[Da_Realist]

1A means 2nd option

1B means 2nd option

It's just a way of being nice.

Did anyone ever think the reverse? That Jordan was 1A to Pippen? Don't think so...

Because that would be saying Jordan was the 2nd option. Which wasn't true.

[bwink23]

1A means 2nd option

1B means 2nd option

It's just a way of being nice.

Did anyone ever think the reverse? That Jordan was 1A to Pippen? Don't think so...

Because that would be saying Jordan was the 2nd option. Which wasn't true.


Looking back on Kukoc's 4 game winners, and the fact Phil snubbed Pippen for the final shot in a crucial playoff game....speaks VOLUMES for Pippen's true #1 option ability...

[Da_Realist]

Magic missed some games in 1982 and the Lakers were just fine without him.

Bird missed some games in 1981 or 1982 and the Celtics were just fine without him.

That's because they both left teams that still had youth, talent, leadership and championship experience. That's what Jordan left in 93.

[jlip]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/434582-todays-scottie-pippen-the-five-best-second-options-in-the-nba-now

You can't be serious. You just responded to comments made by NBA GMs and coaches made while Pippen was playing with comments made by a random fan some 14 years later on a site that's open to anyone who signs up?

How about what Pippen's teammates said then:
From Bill Wennington's book...

"My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1, the top dog, the best player on the team. Scottie turned out to be a better No. 1, than any other No. 1 I ever played with, other than Michael....I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time.

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."

http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

pp. 15-17

[bwink23]

You can't be serious. You just responded to comments made by NBA GMs and coaches made while Pippen was playing with comments made by a random fan some 14 years later on a site that's open to anyone who signs up?

How about what Pippen's teammates said then:
From Bill Wennington's book...

"My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1, the top dog, the best player on the team. Scottie turned out to be a better No. 1, than any other No. 1 I ever played with, other than Michael....I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time.

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."

http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

pp. 15-17


Who's arguing that Pippen wasn't the best player on the team??? DUH :hammerhead:

[jlip]

1A means 2nd option

1B means 2nd option

It's just a way of being nice.

Did anyone ever think the reverse? That Jordan was 1A to Pippen? Don't think so...

Because that would be saying Jordan was the 2nd option. Which wasn't true.

That's true. But 99.9% of the players in NBA history would be a 1A, 1B, or 2nd option to MJ. I think what the OP is trying to say is that on a team where he was considered the best player, Pippen could not have been a successful 1st option/ Alpha male, which is just not the case.

[bwink23]

That's true. But 99.9% of the players in NBA history would be a 1A, 1B, or 2nd option to MJ. I think what the OP is trying to say is that on a team where he was considered the best player, Pippen could not have been a successful 1st option/ Alpha male, which is just not the case.


That is NOT what i'm saying....Pippen gets overrated for that one season alone...as if he took a band of scrubs to 55 wins...which is far from the truth.

[jlip]

Who's arguing that Pippen wasn't the best player on the team??? DUH :hammerhead:

So you ignored the rest of the post saying that he was a better first option/ team leader than other players such as Chris Webber who in his prime was a 27/11/4 player? I didn't say that. Pippen's teammate did.

[bwink23]

That's true. But 99.9% of the players in NBA history would be a 1A, 1B, or 2nd option to MJ. I think what the OP is trying to say is that on a team where he was considered the best player, Pippen could not have been a successful 1st option/ Alpha male, which is just not the case.


Do i think Pippen could LEAD a team to a championship???


HELL NO!!

[bwink23]

So you ignored the rest of the post saying that he was a better first option/ team leader than other players such as Chris Webber who in his prime was a 27/11/4 player? I didn't say that. Pippen's teammate did.


Did Webber ever lead a team to a championship??

HELL NO!!

[jlip]

That is NOT what i'm saying....Pippen gets overrated for that one season alone...as if he took a band of scrubs to 55 wins...which is far from the truth.

I'm done after this, because I have to go. But isn't that the same thing we've heard about MJ? He supposedly carried scrubs and willed them single handedly 6 championships. If Pippen's '94 team was so loaded and deep, what does that say about the teams that MJ led then?

[jlip]

Did Webber ever lead a team to a championship??

HELL NO!!
So you're only a good leader if you lead a team to a championship then? OKaaay...

[TheMan]

This is just a terrible post, why are you downplaying Pippen? He was more of a ball distributor than a shoot first player, in essence, the Bulls PG.

How about making a thread about how Magic was overrated because he never won a ship without KAJ?:facepalm



Aside from a particular someone who believes Scottie could be a 1A option, he wasn't even a 1B option. People want to sight the "55 win team" as if Scottie took trash to new heights or something....this was a 3-PEAT team with a GOAT coach in a proven system with now-experienced players in BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant. These guys had been together for a long time and proven themselves on the biggest stage. Scottie literally didn't do whole lot better than he did any other year, his team simply stepped to the plate as well. Scottie is getting far too much credit.

Just look at Phil's stance on the issue...Toni Kukoc made 4 game winners for the Bulls in 1994, one of them in the Knicks series. Phil drew up a play for Kukoc, which showed Phil's confidence in Scottie's "#1 option" abilities.....Scottie cried and took a seat, that's right....Took a seat in a heated and critical playoff game....:facepalm :facepalm NO EXCUSES for that....that's your best player abandoning your team.

Let's not ignore the additions the Bulls made...Pete Myers was a SOLID defender, which this Bulls team won on defense, so he was an excellent fit on ONE SIDE of the ball. Throw in Europe's best player at the time in Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, and Luc Longley ( players who later would prove their worth with a 3-PEAT of their own), and you still have a formidable team, even minus the game's best all-time player. Is it really surprising at all?

Scottie was great, but looked better simply cuz he wasn't overshadowed on the floor. His team deserves just as much credit for stepping up as he did. BJ and Horace were having all-star seasons. Kukoc was clutch, and the role players did what they do. Does their success make Scottie a "#1 option", No....even Phil himself didn't believe it.

Too many fools are comparing them to the 1993 Bulls....try comparing them to the 1992 team and see what you get, cuz the 1993 Bulls were WORN OUT. Without Jordan, there wasn't that pressure to succeed where anything less than a championship would be failure. No one expected one, and it didn't happen. A second round exit to a short-handed Knicks squad isn't a championship no matter how you want to slice it.

The Bulls in 1992 won 67 games to 57 in 1993....with essentially the same team, same core. So were they really that much worse or no???:confusedshrug: Now take a look at the Bulls in 1995 when you strip away the core from the original 3-PEAT. 34-31. Not impressive.

Giving Scottie all the credit is STUPID, when he had much to work with. Look what he did when he went to Houston, and then to the Blazers....NUFF SAID. Scottie was a great #2, but he was NEVER a #1 option player, and never showed he could be. He didn't put crappy teams on his back for stretches, he's never had a crappy team :lol

[FindingTim]

u out ur mind OP

[Soundwave]

I don't really look at Pippen as a 1B option either to be honest.

If he was a 1B option the scoring split would be more like 27 ppg for MJ and 25 ppg for Pippen.

And Pippen would have hit more game winners/clutch shots, but basically it was Jordan doing all that every year.

The one year Jordan really needed Pippen to step up and be the "man" was in 1995 when he was coming back from baseball and Scottie couldn't do it then.

LeBron and Wade are 1A/1B options.

1A/1B to me implies a "you took the game winner last night, so tonight I got it. You scored 30 last night, tonight I'll score 30" etc. etc. That's not really how Jordan/Pippen were though, there was a clear separation between the two.

[bwink23]

I'm done after this, because I have to go. But isn't that the same thing we've heard about MJ? He supposedly carried scrubs and willed them single handedly 6 championships. If Pippen's '94 team was so loaded and deep, what does that say about the teams that MJ led then?


He says Jordan carried a bunch of scubs??? :confusedshrug:

They had a GREAT team...what Jordan did was mold and shape that team with his influence. That core was young and inexperienced during Jordan's years...Jordan's DNA was all over that team.

BIG DIFFERENCE. Jordan didn't always have to carry them, but he could carry them offensively for long stretches. Pippen could NOT. Nor was Pippen a true clutch performer....that also is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

I don't know where you get your info, but Bulls fans from back in the day know the team was great. But Jordan would often put them on his back when needed. By the time Pippen had his chance, Jordan's (and Phil's) influence was already in full force.

[bwink23]

So you're only a good leader if you lead a team to a championship then? OKaaay...


When is this about LEADING..it's about being a #1 option. :confusedshrug:

Many players can LEAD...it's the results of your leadership that count....I'm not arguing that Scottie wasn't a great leader...i'm saying he's not that alpha-#1 who's gonna put a team on his back in the most dire of situations..

He was NEVER that guy....

[Soundwave]

And not to rag on Pip, because I do think he was a great player, but 1994 Bulls also added Kukoc and had B.J. Armstrong really come into his own that year too which helped mitigate the loss of Jordan on top of the fact that the team had championship experience and knew Phil Jackson's system inside out.

Leading that team to 55 wins was impressive, but it's not like it was something unbelievable. The team had 4 guys who could drop 15-20 points on any given night between Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and Armstrong.

Grant Hill lead a team with a similar amount of talent (maybe less) to 54 wins in Detroit too.

[KevinNYC]

Was Pippen a top 3 player of the 90's? By MVP voting he was number 3 in the league once.....this is probably skewed by folks not wanted for vote for two Bulls during 90's

MVP Award Shares
1991-92 NBA 0.033 (9)
1993-94 NBA 0.386 (3)
1994-95 NBA 0.079 (7)
1995-96 NBA 0.200 (5)
1996-97 NBA 0.005 (11)
1997-98 NBA 0.012 (10)

Shaq, Hakeem, Jordan, Robinson, Malone....what about them?

I like Pippen, but of the five guys above, I would only take him over Malone because of his versatility. Malone of course was MVP, twice.

[TheMan]

I don't really look at Pippen as a 1B option either to be honest.

If he was a 1B option the scoring split would be more like 27 ppg for MJ and 25 ppg for Pippen.

And Pippen would have hit more game winners/clutch shots, but basically it was Jordan doing all that every year.

The one year Jordan really needed Pippen to step up and be the "man" was in 1995 when he was coming back from baseball and Scottie couldn't do it then.

LeBron and Wade are 1A/1B options.

1A/1B to me implies a "you took the game winner last night, so tonight I got it. You scored 30 last night, tonight I'll score 30" etc. etc. That's not really how Jordan/Pippen were though, there was a clear separation between the two.

That's not really fair though, 99% of players who ever played the game would be option 2 to MJ's 1 option...and yes, LBJ or Wade would be option 2 under MJ with a clear separation between them.

[Da_Realist]

Pippen was better than a lot of #1 options, but being the 2nd option maximized his potential. I'd take him over Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Shawn Kemp for example any day of the week...but if you teamed him up with any of those guys, he'd willingly (and smartly) fall into the #2 slot. He seemed the most comfortable setting the table and picking his spots and ALWAYS showing up on defense.

He grew into a #1 with #2 tendencies. What hasn't been mentioned is that Pippen grew mentally fatigued with the extra scrutiny that comes with being the #1 guy. He was begging MJ to come back in 95, not because he was incapable on the court, but he wanted someone else to be the lightning rod for the press and he wanted a strong voice in the locker room. Pippen was a leader, but he didn't like being the bulldog. He wanted to be everyone's friend, give advice/words of encouragement and otherwise lead by example. His leadership style needed people to like him. He benefited from MJ not giving a ****. MJ was the bulldog that Pippen didn't really want to be.

The added responsibilities that come from being the top guy (staying late after games to answer reporter's criticisms night after night) and being the face of the franchise is not something that Pippen wanted to deal with. Pippen was capable of being a career #1 with his play (starting in the 90's somewhere) but I think even Pippen would admit he wouldn't have wanted the added scrutiny and glare of the press/public for the bulk of his career and would have eventually sought out solace by teaming with guys that had thicker skin.

[Soundwave]

That's not really fair though, 99% of players who ever played the game would be option 2 to MJ's 1 option...and yes, LBJ or Wade would be option 2 under MJ with a clear separation between them.

It would be closer though if Scottie actually hit some game winners or something though. Even in 93-94 it was Kukoc that bailed the Bulls out by hitting the game winner vs. the Knicks while Pippen sat pouting on the sideline.

[Soundwave]

Pippen was better than a lot of #1 options, but being the 2nd option maximized his potential. I'd take him over Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Shawn Kemp for example any day of the week...but if you teamed him up with any of those guys, he'd willingly (and smartly) fall into the #2 slot. He seemed the most comfortable setting the table and picking his spots and ALWAYS showing up on defense.

He grew into a #1 with #2 tendencies. What hasn't been mentioned is that Pippen grew mentally fatigued with the extra scrutiny that comes with being the #1 guy. He was begging MJ to come back in 95, not because he was incapable on the court, but he wanted someone else to be the lightning rod for the press and he wanted a strong voice in the locker room. Pippen was a leader, but he didn't like being the bulldog. He wanted to be everyone's friend, give advice/words of encouragement and otherwise lead by example. His leadership style needed people to like him. He benefited from MJ not giving a ****. MJ was the bulldog that Pippen didn't really want to be.

The added responsibilities that come from being the top guy (staying late after games to answer reporter's criticisms night after night) and the face of the franchise is not something that Pippen wanted to deal with. Pippen was capable of being a career #1 with his play (starting in the 90's somewhere) but I think even Pippen would admit he wouldn't have wanted the added scrutiny and glare of the press/public for the bulk of his career and would have eventually sought out solace by teaming with guys that had thicker skin.

I'd agree with pretty much all that. I think Tex Winter basically said the same thing before too and he would know.

[chazzy]

One of the things that impresses me the most about the 94 Bulls is how they improved defensively that year. Pippen was a BEAST on that end

[TheMan]

Pippen was better than a lot of #1 options, but being the 2nd option maximized his potential. I'd take him over Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Shawn Kemp for example any day of the week...but if you teamed him up with any of those guys, he'd willingly (and smartly) fall into the #2 slot. He seemed the most comfortable setting the table and picking his spots and ALWAYS showing up on defense.

He grew into a #1 with #2 tendencies. What hasn't been mentioned is that Pippen grew mentally fatigued with the extra scrutiny that comes with being the #1 guy. He was begging MJ to come back in 95, not because he was incapable on the court, but he wanted someone else to be the lightning rod for the press and he wanted a strong voice in the locker room. Pippen was a leader, but he didn't like being the bulldog. He wanted to be everyone's friend, give advice/words of encouragement and otherwise lead by example. His leadership style needed people to like him. He benefited from MJ not giving a ****. MJ was the bulldog that Pippen didn't really want to be.

The added responsibilities that come from being the top guy (staying late after games to answer reporter's criticisms night after night) and the face of the franchise is not something that Pippen wanted to deal with. Pippen was capable of being a career #1 with his play (starting in the 90's somewhere) but I think even Pippen would admit he wouldn't have wanted the added scrutiny and glare of the press/public for the bulk of his career and would have eventually sought out solace by teaming with guys that had thicker skin.
:applause: :bowdown:

Great post

In the first 3 championships, MJ was clearly the top dog, in the second threepeat, MJ and Pip were co-captains, Pip was the good cop and MJ the asshole cop:lol

[Da_Realist]

:applause: :bowdown:

Pip was the good cop and MJ the asshole cop:lol

Yeah, that's another way of putting it :hammerhead:

[TheMan]

It would be closer though if Scottie actually hit some game winners or something though. Even in 93-94 it was Kukoc that bailed the Bulls out by hitting the game winner vs. the Knicks while Pippen sat pouting on the sideline.
Soundwave, I'm begining to wonder if you even saw those games back then, in the 92/93 Bulls Knicks ECFs, MJ struggled with his shot (he had hurt his wrist) and it was Pippen who hit dagger after dagger to put them away, he was the MVP of that series, also against the Cavs I believe the year before, Pippen has had numerous clutch performances, can't believe you can't recall them IF you did watch them back in the day.

[Soundwave]

Soundwave, I'm begining to wonder if you even saw those games back then, in the 92/93 Bulls Knicks ECFs, MJ struggled with his shot (he had hurt his wrist) and it was Pippen who nit dagger after dagger to put them away, he was the MVP of that series, also against the Cavs I believe the year before, Pippen has had numerous clutch performances, can't believe you can't recall them IF you did watch them back in the day.

Which game winners did Pippen hit in the 92/93 ECFs?

If anything I think MJ was actually perhaps more clutch in the 2nd 3-peat, the performances against Utah in the two Finals specifically he basically willed the Bulls to win.

[TheMan]

Which game winners did Pippen hit in the 92/93 ECFs?

If anything I think MJ was actually perhaps more clutch in the 2nd 3-peat, the performances against Utah in the two Finals specifically he basically willed the Bulls to win.
In game 6, the Knicks kept hanging around and he hit a dagger 3 late in the game to put them away, in gm 5 he blocked Charles Smith to deny them the win, just a couple of examples of the top of my head.

[bwink23]

Soundwave, I'm begining to wonder if you even saw those games back then, in the 92/93 Bulls Knicks ECFs, MJ struggled with his shot (he had hurt his wrist) and it was Pippen who hit dagger after dagger to put them away, he was the MVP of that series, also against the Cavs I believe the year before, Pippen has had numerous clutch performances, can't believe you can't recall them IF you did watch them back in the day.

Yeah i'd like to know what your referring to as well....

[32jazz]

Soundwave, I'm begining to wonder if you even saw those games back then, in the 92/93 Bulls Knicks ECFs, MJ struggled with his shot (he had hurt his wrist) and it was Pippen who hit dagger after dagger to put them away, he was the MVP of that series, also against the Cavs I believe the year before, Pippen has had numerous clutch performances, can't believe you can't recall them IF you did watch them back in the day.


Weird how followers of the Cult of MJ can attempt to talk up cba journeyman Pete 'friggin' Myers ,but dismiss Pippen if it exposes the myths of MJ, huh?

[hitmanyr2k]

Aside from a particular someone who believes Scottie could be a 1A option, he wasn't even a 1B option. People want to sight the "55 win team" as if Scottie took trash to new heights or something....this was a 3-PEAT team with a GOAT coach in a proven system with now-experienced players in BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant. These guys had been together for a long time and proven themselves on the biggest stage. Scottie literally didn't do whole lot better than he did any other year, his team simply stepped to the plate as well. Scottie is getting far too much credit.


You can't be this dumb. I'm starting to get the feeling you didn't even watch the Bulls that year when Jordan retired. As soon as Jordan quit you probably quit as well :oldlol:

The Bulls in '94 were NOT the same 3peat team from years past. I don't know what it takes to get your dumbass to realize that. Cartwright was on his last leg. Paxson was on his last leg and barely played. Scott Williams was injured most of the year. New faces in their first year of the triangle had to play key roles. The only consistent key guys from that title team were Pippen, Horace and BJ. Never mind both Pippen and Horace Grant missed 10+ games that year.

Just about all of the new faces on the Bulls were journeyman roleplayers that came from losing franchises...barely any playoff experience whatsoever. Kukoc had trouble adjusting to his first year of the NBA because of the physical play and his defense was a sore spot. There was never any consistency in his play. And maybe if Jordan hadn't made such a crap move of retiring 3 weeks before the season started the Bulls could have gotten better replacements than Pete Myers and Jo Jo English but they had to scramble to replace him with whatever they could find.



Let's not ignore the additions the Bulls made...Pete Myers was a SOLID defender, which this Bulls team won on defense, so he was an excellent fit on ONE SIDE of the ball. Throw in Europe's best player at the time in Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, and Luc Longley ( players who later would prove their worth with a 3-PEAT of their own), and you still have a formidable team, even minus the game's best all-time player. Is it really surprising at all?

Scottie was great, but looked better simply cuz he wasn't overshadowed on the floor. His team deserves just as much credit for stepping up as he did. BJ and Horace were having all-star seasons. Kukoc was clutch, and the role players did what they do. Does their success make Scottie a "#1 option", No....even Phil himself didn't believe it.


Formidable team? I can't believe anyone is dumb enough to talk up Pete Myers, probably the worst Bulls SG in history rivaling Keith Bogans. Good defensively? Sure, but pretty much worthless on offense. No more 1-2 punch at SG and SF. Hell, at least Bogans could hit the 3 point shot. And Pete Myers had no playoff experience whatsoever. Jo Jo English, a scrub that had never played a playoff game in his entire career. Bill Wennington had never played a playoff game in his entire career. Luc Longley, didn't even come over until a midseason trade and once again never played a playoff game in his entire career. Europe's best player struggled his first season, had career low shooting percentages across the board and was Phil's whipping boy on defense. His defense was so bad his minutes actually shrunk in the playoffs. These guys are supposed to form a formidable team? How?



Too many fools are comparing them to the 1993 Bulls....try comparing them to the 1992 team and see what you get, cuz the 1993 Bulls were WORN OUT. Without Jordan, there wasn't that pressure to succeed where anything less than a championship would be failure. No one expected one, and it didn't happen. A second round exit to a short-handed Knicks squad isn't a championship no matter how you want to slice it.

The Bulls in 1992 won 67 games to 57 in 1993....with essentially the same team, same core. So were they really that much worse or no???:confusedshrug:

The '93 Bulls were worn out?!? You don't think the players on the '94 Bulls who had just gone through that 3peat weren't even more worn out?!? You think Pippen was getting surgery on his ankles and rushing his comeback for fun?

The '94 Bulls won 55 games with players getting old, with injuries, and a bunch of new faces. I will repeat again, this team was NOT the same as the '92 and '93 teams so why even compare?


Now take a look at the Bulls in 1995 when you strip away the core from the original 3-PEAT. 34-31. Not impressive.

Well no shit. Strip away Jordan, Paxson, the entire Bulls frontline of Horace Grant, Cartwright, and Scott Williams, replace those guys with garbage and guess what? Your team isn't nearly as strong as the old title teams. Thanks Captain Obvious. And while we're decimating the Bulls frontline in '95 why not just pile on and have an injured Luc Longley for the first few months of the season with a fracture in his foot. The Bulls being 34-31 was a freakin miracle with all they went through.


Giving Scottie all the credit is STUPID, when he had much to work with. Look what he did when he went to Houston, and then to the Blazers....NUFF SAID. Scottie was a great #2, but he was NEVER a #1 option player, and never showed he could be. He didn't put crappy teams on his back for stretches, he's never had a crappy team :lol

Giving Pippen his due credit for what he did makes complete sense when it's not seen through the eyes of an idiot. And comparing a 27-28 year old Pippen on the Bulls to a 33-35 year old player with the Rockets and Blazers is BEYOND stupid.

[Da_Realist]

3 things that need to be considered.

Following their Dream Team experience, MJ bragged to Phil Jackson how Scottie showed everyone how good he was. He was talking like a proud big brother.

Immediately after winning title #5 during the celebration following game 6, MJ told the world that Pippen was "his MVP". And then offered to give Pippen the truck that Finals MVP's won at that time. "I'll take the trophy, he may get the car".

Before bashing everyone in his HOF Induction Speech, MJ (after viewing video clips highlighting his career) said, "In all the videos, you never just saw me... You saw Scottie Pippen. Every championship I won."

As much of an ass as MJ is, he totally respected what Pippen did for that team. A lot of it, we can see on old video clips but I'm sure there were a lot of things behind the scenes too. That should be good enough.

[bwink23]

You can't be this dumb. I'm starting to get the feeling you didn't even watch the Bulls that year when Jordan retired. As soon as Jordan quit you probably quit as well :oldlol:

The Bulls in '94 were NOT the same 3peat team from years past. I don't know what it takes to get your dumbass to realize that. Cartwright was on his last leg. Paxson was on his last leg and barely played. Scott Williams was injured most of the year. New faces in their first year of the triangle had to play key roles. The only consistent key guys from that title team were Pippen, Horace and BJ. Never mind both Pippen and Horace Grant missed 10+ games that year.

Just about all of the new faces on the Bulls were journeyman roleplayers that came from losing franchises...barely any playoff experience whatsoever. Kukoc had trouble adjusting to his first year of the NBA because of the physical play and his defense was a sore spot. There was never any consistency in his play. And maybe if Jordan hadn't made such a crap move of retiring 3 weeks before the season started the Bulls could have gotten better replacements than Pete Myers and Jo Jo English but they had to scramble to replace him with whatever they could find.




Formidable team? I can't believe anyone is dumb enough to talk up Pete Myers, probably the worst Bulls SG in history rivaling Keith Bogans. Good defensively? Sure, but pretty much worthless on offense. No more 1-2 punch at SG and SF. Hell, at least Bogans could hit the 3 point shot. And Pete Myers had no playoff experience whatsoever. Jo Jo English, a scrub that had never played a playoff game in his entire career. Bill Wennington had never played a playoff game in his entire career. Luc Longley, didn't even come over until a midseason trade and once again never played a playoff game in his entire career. Europe's best player struggled his first season, had career low shooting percentages across the board and was Phil's whipping boy on defense. His defense was so bad his minutes actually shrunk in the playoffs. These guys are supposed to form a formidable team? How?




The '93 Bulls were worn out?!? You don't think the players on the '94 Bulls who had just gone through that 3peat weren't even more worn out?!? You think Pippen was getting surgery on his ankles and rushing his comeback for fun?

The '94 Bulls won 55 games with players getting old, with injuries, and a bunch of new faces. I will repeat again, this team was NOT the same as the '92 and '93 teams so why even compare?



Well no shit. Strip away Jordan, Paxson, the entire Bulls frontline of Horace Grant, Cartwright, and Scott Williams, replace those guys with garbage and guess what? Your team isn't nearly as strong as the old title teams. Thanks Captain Obvious. And while we're decimating the Bulls frontline in '95 why not just pile on and have an injured Luc Longley for the first few months of the season with a fracture in his foot. The Bulls being 34-31 was a freakin miracle with all they went through.



Giving Pippen his due credit for what he did makes complete sense when it's not seen through the eyes of an idiot. And comparing a 27-28 year old Pippen on the Bulls to a 33-35 year old player with the Rockets and Blazers is BEYOND stupid.



DID NOT READ!!!! :rockon:

No lengthy discussion needed...the Bulls made several key additions who were apart of the second 3-peat...count up the rings on those fingers and tell me they didn't have talent...:lol

[Legends66NBA7]

3 things that need to be considered.

Following their Dream Team experience, MJ bragged to Phil Jackson how Scottie showed everyone how good he was. He was talking like a proud big brother.

Immediately after winning title #5 during the celebration following game 6, MJ told the world that Pippen was "his MVP". And then offered to give Pippen the truck that Finals MVP's won at that time. "I'll take the trophy, he may get the car".

Before bashing everyone in his HOF Induction Speech, MJ (after viewing video clips highlighting his career) said, "In all the videos, you never just saw me... You saw Scottie Pippen. Every championship I won."

As much of an ass as MJ is, he totally respected what Pippen did for that team. A lot of it, we can see on old video clips but I'm sure there were a lot of things behind the scenes too. That should be good enough.

+1.

/thread.

[Smoke117]

So you ignored the rest of the post saying that he was a better first option/ team leader than other players such as Chris Webber who in his prime was a 27/11/4 player? I didn't say that. Pippen's teammate did.

Haha, Chris Webber was a 27.1ppg on 23.4 shot attempts. God who couldn't average 27.1ppg on that many shots. Scottie could have averaged 27points chucking up that many shots. That isn't even good efficiency. Webber has always been one of the most overrated scorers ever. Always a guy who thought he was a much better scorer than he was. Another good example: Antoine Walker averaged more points than Pippen three times on some of the worst efficiency ever, does that make him a better scorer? No. It just makes him a greedy chucker. Too many people look at ppg and think oh okay so that guy was a great scorer. Why don't you look at the efficiency of some of these players and the selfishness some of them had. Walker was a clown who was nearly averaging as many shots as he was points. Pippen never averaged more than 17.8 shot attempts. He was still clearly a better scorer than Antoine Walker even if he never averaged more points. He just never had it in his mind to chuck up 21 shots to average 23 points as he was the consummate team player and was never out to get his.

This whole 1A, 1B thing is kind of silly. When Jordan retired Pippen was the best perimeter player in the league. When Jordan returned Pippen was the 2nd best perimeter player in the league. The Bulls had two super stars in 96 and 97. Through 94-97 Pippen basically did whatever he wanted to do offensively when he was in the mind to score and he was healthy. Besides that it was Pippen in the 96 playoffs who carried the teamsdefense leading that team in drating and the playoffs in defensive win shares. Jordan got all the offensive glory while Pippen did the dirty defensive work.

[Da_Realist]

This whole 1A, 1B thing is kind of silly. When Jordan retired Pippen was the best perimeter player in the league. When Jordan returned Pippen was the 2nd best perimeter player in the league. The Bulls had two super stars in 96 and 97. Through 94-97 Pippen basically did whatever he wanted to do offensively when he was in the mind to score and he was healthy. Besides that it was Pippen in the 96 playoffs who carried the teamsdefense leading that team in drating and the playoffs in defensive win shares. Jordan got all the offensive glory while Pippen did the dirty defensive work.

NBA & ABA Yearly Top 10 Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_top_10.html)

Says here that MJ had a better DRtg than Pippen for the 95-96 season :confusedshrug: In fact, I didn't see one year where Pippen led MJ in DRtg.

From 96 to 97, Pippen fell from top 10 to not mentioned at all.

** And by the way, looking over the names on this list makes me almost want to disqualify DRtg totally. Jack Sikma? Alton Liston?? Chris Dudley??? :no:


Defensive Win Shares is even worse. Magic was the leader in defensive win shares in the 87 playoffs. :wtf:
NBA & ABA Yearly Top 10 Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Win Share (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_top_10_p.html)

Other notes,
(Playoffs)
In 89, MJ ranked 1, Pippen 2
In 90, MJ ranked 3, Pippen 7
In 91, MJ ranked 2, Pippen 1
In 92, MJ ranked 2, Pippen 1
In 93, MJ ranked 4, Pippen 3
In 96, MJ ranked 5, Pippen 1
In 97, MJ ranked 2, Pippen 3
In 98, MJ ranked 4, Pippen 2

According to this, it doens't look like Pippen was the only one doing the "dirty defensive work" in the playoffs every year.

[Kblaze8855]

That is NOT what i'm saying....Pippen gets overrated for that one season alone...as if he took a band of scrubs to 55 wins...which is far from the truth.

Has any team with less help won more that didnt have its best player given a similar level of credit?

How many team have ever been as good with a 2 and 3 on the level of Horace and BJ?

Not bad players....but BJ Armstrong in his prime would be a backup on 19 teams right now and not even the first guard off the bench on several.

Relative to the teams to play on that level...Pippen did lead scrubs to 55 wins. He didnt lead scrubs if the standard is shitty teams....but for really good teams?

Not many have less talent.

[Kblaze8855]

* And by the way, looking over the names on this list makes me almost want to disqualify DRtg totally. Jack Sikma? Alton Liston?? Chris Dudley???

Why oin earth would you include Chris dudley in that list?

Because he isnt a big name? What about his defense justifies calling him out like that?

[bwink23]

Has any team with less help won more that didnt have its best player given a similar level of credit?

How many team have ever been as good with a 2 and 3 on the level of Horace and BJ?

Not bad players....but BJ Armstrong in his prime would be a backup on 19 teams right now and not even the first guard off the bench on several.

Relative to the teams to play on that level...Pippen did lead scrubs to 55 wins. He didnt lead scrubs if the standard is shitty teams....but for really good teams?

Not many have less talent.


Keep REEEAAACCCHINNNNGGG.....STRETTTCCHHHH!!

[Deuce Bigalow]

Another Mikey Jordan thread by bwink...

Mike retired a decade ago, get off his sack already

[Da_Realist]

Why oin earth would you include Chris dudley in that list?

Because he isnt a big name? What about his defense justifies calling him out like that?

You think he was good enough defensively to be ranked top 10 in 96? Before Mourning, Jordan and Pippen?

[Kblaze8855]

Keep REEEAAACCCHINNNNGGG.....STRETTTCCHHHH!!


Feel free to point out to me the teams that suggest otherwise. List is not long. BJ and Horace were quality players...but in no way were they impressive as a 55 win teams #2 and #3. BJ might be the 7th man on the Knicks right now.

[97 bulls]

Feel free to point out to me the teams that suggest otherwise. List is not long. BJ and Horace were quality players...but in no way were they impressive as a 55 win teams #2 and #3. BJ might be the 7th man on the Knicks right now.
You know whats most ironic? The fact that is if these exact posters were asked, theyd say Jordan carried the 1st threepeat bulls and that he had minimal help. But then, they routinely say the Pippen led bulls shouldve won the championship in 94 without Jordan. Even going so far as to say or imply that Pete Myers and rookie Toni Kukoc were suitable replacements for Jordan. If that'd not disrespectful to Jordan, I dont know what is.

Ive read posts saying Pippen wasnt a Franchise player cuz he wasnt able to win with what they feel was a championship caliber squad in 94. But then when I say the bulls wouldve won the championship if they had a Mitch Richmond or Latrell Spreewell type player, they vehemently disagree.

[LABean]

:facepalm

You're lucky Jordan had Pippen.
No Pippen, no rings. :lol :lol

[97 bulls]

Magic missed some games in 1982 and the Lakers were just fine without him.

Bird missed some games in 1981 or 1982 and the Celtics were just fine without him.

That's because they both left teams that still had youth, talent, leadership and championship experience. That's what Jordan left in 93.
Lol some games? How did the lakers do in 92 for a whole season without Johnson with sedale threat who was a solid pg. how did the Celtics fair when Bird hurt his back in 89 and with Reggie Lewis as his replacement?

[97 bulls]

NBA & ABA Yearly Top 10 Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_top_10.html)

Says here that MJ had a better DRtg than Pippen for the 95-96 season :confusedshrug: In fact, I didn't see one year where Pippen led MJ in DRtg.

From 96 to 97, Pippen fell from top 10 to not mentioned at all.

** And by the way, looking over the names on this list makes me almost want to disqualify DRtg totally. Jack Sikma? Alton Liston?? Chris Dudley??? :no:


Defensive Win Shares is even worse. Magic was the leader in defensive win shares in the 87 playoffs. :wtf:
NBA & ABA Yearly Top 10 Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Win Share (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_top_10_p.html)

Other notes,
(Playoffs)
In 89, MJ ranked 1, Pippen 2
In 90, MJ ranked 3, Pippen 7
In 91, MJ ranked 2, Pippen 1
In 92, MJ ranked 2, Pippen 1
In 93, MJ ranked 4, Pippen 3
In 96, MJ ranked 5, Pippen 1
In 97, MJ ranked 2, Pippen 3
In 98, MJ ranked 4, Pippen 2

According to this, it doens't look like Pippen was the only one doing the "dirty defensive work" in the playoffs every year.
All statistics need to be taken with context in mind. Dennis Rodman led the league in FG% bit noone would he was a great scorer. He just took alot of close range easy shots. Magic had a high defensive rating cuz he would guard the worse offensive players.

[Soundwave]

The Bulls weren't a stacked team in a conventional sense in terms of talent, but they always played well together, understood their roles, were well coached, and played hard defence.

If you remove the 92-93 season which IMO was the one year the Bulls got a little lazy, they were basically a 60+ win team every year with Jordan ...

91 - 61 wins
92- 69 wins
94/95 - 13-4 w/Jordan (pro-rates to a 62-63 win pace)
96- 72 wins
97- 67 wins
98- 62 wins

IMO in 92-93, the team kinda zoned out because all the hype was about the "threepeat" which was a huge deal back then, and they just wanted to get back to the playoffs. Still got the job done in the playoffs.

If the baseball thing hadn't gotten in the way and Jordan maybe takes 5-6 months to clear his head/relax and comes back in time for last 15-20 games on the 93-94 season, I think they definitely would've won the title again in '94.

[Da_Realist]

How did the lakers do in 92 for a whole season without Johnson with sedale threat who was a solid pg.

1) The Lakers ran their offense through Magic Johnson, who retired unexpectantly during training camp.

2) Kinda hard for a journeyman pg to run an offense built on Magic's strengths and leadership

3) James Worthy missed 28 games. Sam Perkins missed 19 games. Vlade Divac missed 46 games

4) They hadn't won a title since 1988

5) Coach = Mike Dunleavy. Good, but not Phil Jackson


how did the Celtics fair when Bird hurt his back in 89 and with Reggie Lewis as his replacement?

1) Reggie didn't have the luxury of 6 years to become a leader

2) Mchale was never the same after injuring his foot in 87. He certainly wasn't able to step up his game to compensate for what they lost

3) Parish was 35 years old and DJ was 34

4) The guys they relied on to pick up the slack were too young and inexperienced. Reggie Lewis was in his 2nd year and Brian Shaw was in his 1st

5) Coach = Jimmy Rodgers. Good, but not Phil Jackson

[97 bulls]

1) The Lakers ran their offense through Magic Johnson, who retired unexpectantly during training camp.

2) Kinda hard for a journeyman pg to run an offense built on Magic's strengths and leadership

3) James Worthy missed 28 games. Sam Perkins missed 19 games. Vlade Divac missed 46 games

4) They hadn't won a title since 1988

5) Coach = Mike Dunleavy. Good, but not Phil Jackson



1) Reggie didn't have the luxury of 6 years to become a leader

2) Mchale was never the same after injuring his foot in 87. He certainly wasn't able to step up his game to compensate for what they lost

3) Parish was 35 years old and DJ was 34

4) The guys they relied on to pick up the slack were too young and inexperienced. Reggie Lewis was in his 2nd year and Brian Shaw was in his 1st

5) Coach = Jimmy Rodgers. Good, but not Phil Jackson
Didnt the bulls run their offense through Jordan? Didnt Pippen, Grant, Paxson, Scott Williams, Cartwright miss time? Werent paxson and cartwright old? Didnt the lakers come off a championship appearance? And the Celtics an ECF?

The Celtics changing coaches didnt have that big a difference cuz they kept the same offense. And Dunleavy led the lakers to a championship appearance. The same excuses you use for the Lakers and Celtics apply to the Bulls.

Even if all the excuses you use for the Lakers and Celtics werent needed, the injuries etc, they still don't achieve what the bulls did.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls weren't a stacked team in a conventional sense in terms of talent, but they always played well together, understood their roles, were well coached, and played hard defence.

If you remove the 92-93 season which IMO was the one year the Bulls got a little lazy, they were basically a 60+ win team every year with Jordan ...

91 - 61 wins
92- 69 wins
94/95 - 13-4 w/Jordan (pro-rates to a 62-63 win pace)
96- 72 wins
97- 67 wins
98- 62 wins With Pippen missing 38 games. Which pro-rates to 68 wins roughly

IMO in 92-93, the team kinda zoned out because all the hype was about the "threepeat" which was a huge deal back then, and they just wanted to get back to the playoffs. Still got the job done in the playoffs.

If the baseball thing hadn't gotten in the way and Jordan maybe takes 5-6 months to clear his head/relax and comes back in time for last 15-20 games on the 93-94 season, I think they definitely would've won the title again in '94.
Just had to include that

[Nick Young]

scottie is a bigger choke artist than lebron

[guy]

1) The Lakers ran their offense through Magic Johnson, who retired unexpectantly during training camp.

2) Kinda hard for a journeyman pg to run an offense built on Magic's strengths and leadership

3) James Worthy missed 28 games. Sam Perkins missed 19 games. Vlade Divac missed 46 games

4) They hadn't won a title since 1988

5) Coach = Mike Dunleavy. Good, but not Phil Jackson



1) Reggie didn't have the luxury of 6 years to become a leader

2) Mchale was never the same after injuring his foot in 87. He certainly wasn't able to step up his game to compensate for what they lost

3) Parish was 35 years old and DJ was 34

4) The guys they relied on to pick up the slack were too young and inexperienced. Reggie Lewis was in his 2nd year and Brian Shaw was in his 1st

5) Coach = Jimmy Rodgers. Good, but not Phil Jackson

Not to mention that neither of those teams came into those seasons with high intensity and with a chip on their shoulder with something to prove. Alot of the core players were old and injured with there best days behind them and their leader gone.

I think its always ridiculous how people just always point to this argument where removing a player and seeing how they do automatically measures that player's impact or his teammates' that are still there. Lebron James went from 66 wins with Cleveland to 58 with Miami, which was basically the same Cleveland team but with Wade and Bosh in Mo and Varejeao's place. No one in their right mind is going to say Mo and Vareajeao is better then Wade and Bosh. Sometimes these things are unexplainable or there's things going on with the dynamic of that team that we all really don't know about. Like someone else I believe said, the Bulls went from 67 wins to 57 wins from 92 to 93. What changed with the roster? Nothing really.

[guy]

By the way, what the hell does 1B even mean? If you're distinguishing a duo as 1A/1B whats the difference between that and 1/2? You're still clearly showing there's a separation between the two.

[97 bulls]

By the way, what the hell does 1B even mean? If you're distinguishing a duo as 1A/1B whats the difference between that and 1/2? You're still clearly showing there's a separation between the two.
Posters routinely mix up what a 1st option player is and being the leader. Or best player

[guy]

Posters routinely mix up what a 1st option player is and being the leader. Or best player

Okay. I still don't understand why people do that.

[97 bulls]

Okay. I still don't understand why people do that.
They don't play basketball. Pippen was never a 1b option to Jordan. He was number 2

[bizil]

When it comes to Pip at SF, he wouldn't be a player u would select as a number one option or alpha dog. It takes more than a very good scoring skillset and ability to be a number one option or alpha dog scorer. It takes a certain killer instinct and mentality to do it. If u are a student of the game, u know it when u see it. And it's not about jacking up a lot of shots. But at times, the alpha dog might have to jack a lot of shots depending on the team, game, or situation. At SF u have these guys in my book who are alpha dog types:

Bird
Dr.J
Hondo
Barry
Baylor
Lebron (yes Bron is an alpha dog level scorer, just not the closer many would like yet)
Nique
King
English
Dantley
Aguirre
Melo
Durant
Pierce
Kiki
Mullin

These kinds of SF's are a different breed of scorer and mentality than Pippen. I feel u could win a ring with Pippen as your best player because he was still a very good scorer and epic all around guy. But at the same time, Pippen is NOT your prototypical alpha dog type scorer. Pip never put the foot on the gas consistently enough for that level.

[305Baller]

saying 'nuff said' is annoying and tired.
i did it years ago when nobody did it.