Explain to me why/how Rose is better than Westbrook?

[MASH Transit]

As far as I'm concerned, they're the premier athletes at the PG position. Both are athletic slashers with inconsistent jump shots who live or die by getting to the rim. Both are top 5-10 players, and top 5 PG's behind Chris Paul.

Rose: 35.4mpg/23/3/8/45fg%/54ts%

Westbrook: 35.5mpg/24/5/6/47fg%/54ts%

What am I missing; What makes Rose definitively better than Westbrook? Why is it that Westbrook is labeled a chucker and Rose a top 5 player?

[FKAri]

The human mind is a very powerful thing.

[DMAVS41]

Nothing tangible really.

Just media bias and bs perceptions.

You'll hear in this thread that Rose is more clutch....but that hasn't been the case at all this year actually. In fact, Westbrook has been far more clutch this year.

[cteach111]

Rose is a smarter player

[Droid101]

Rose is a smarter player
Bravo, thank you for the thought-provoking analysis.

[SpecialQue]

Sorry, if I have to go with

http://i.imgur.com/tAzOr.gif

vs

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m012yhXJOr1qj966mo1_500.gif

Then I'm going with option 1.

[liquidrage]

Rose doesn't get blammed when Durant gets caught coming off a screen and can't get open.

Rose doesn't have to pass to Ibaka who drops 2 passes a game for easy buckets.


Honestly, I think Rose is a slightly better player. But Westbrook got beat up too much in the playoffs and the start of the year. He's not worlds better, just a tad.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Rose doesn't get blammed when Durant gets caught coming off a screen and can't get open.

Rose doesn't have to pass to Ibaka who drops 2 passes a game for easy buckets.


Honestly, I think Rose is a slightly better player. But Westbrook got beat up too much in the playoffs and the start of the year. He's not worlds better, just a tad.


Rose doesn't have a player of Durant's caliber on his team :confusedshrug:

Rose's next best scoring option besides himself is... Carlos Boozer?
While Westbrooke has has Durant & Harden to pick up the slack when he's having an off game.

When Rose has a bad game everybody notices because he's the only source of offense on his team, so when he's off the team loses.

When Westbrooke has a bad game its not as noticable because he usually has either Durant, Harden or BOTH picking up the slack.

BTW D rose bball iq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Westbrooke.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Rose carries his team, he's far and away their best player. Westbrook is the clear second option on his team, so of course he's not going to get the same recognition as Rose.

I do think Rose is a little better, Westbrook is helped by defenses having to key so hard on Durant, while anyone playing the Bulls is going to devote their defensive efforts toward stopping Rose.

[Droid101]

When Rose has a bad game everybody notices because he's the only source of offense on his team, so when he's off the team loses.

Oh yeah? Then why did the Bulls win so many games when Rose was out?

[Kiddlovesnets]

I supposed a top 3 PG is better than someone who is not top 5 in this position? Worthless thread, really...

[Pointguard]

Oh yeah? Then why did the Bulls win so many games when Rose was out?
Because they played sucky teams.

[selrahc]

westbrook makes dumber decisions and takes worse shots

[Droid101]

Because they played sucky teams.
Or, maybe because they win with defense, and he's not that good a defender.

[Alamo]

Or, maybe because they win with defense, and he's not that good a defender.

Nope, they just played sucky teams.

[Clippersfan86]

Uh.... some things Rose has a big edge in that don't show up in stats? Ballhandling, court vision primarily. Rose just knows how to play the game better. Just because two players have similar stats doesn't mean they are equals. Ballhandling and court vision are HUGE, important things when it comes to a PG. Rose is so much better in those two things, it's really not even close.

Westbrook has the most slippery, unstable ballhandling I've ever seen in a top tier PG. Compare his ballhandling to all the other "elite" PG's and you'll see a big drop off. Same with his passing/playmaking.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Oh yeah? Then why did the Bulls win so many games when Rose was out?

Because they were playing scrubb ass teams.

Unless you think a starting 5 of cj watson ronnie brewer luol deng carlos boozer and noah are a serious threat to win the east..

[Pointguard]

Nothing tangible really.

Just media bias and bs perceptions.

You'll hear in this thread that Rose is more clutch....but that hasn't been the case at all this year actually. In fact, Westbrook has been far more clutch this year.
Really? I know you have the stats but I also know that you don't fully understand them.

[Cowboy Thunder]

westbrook makes dumber decisions and takes worse shots


a year ago...


not this year:applause:

[Pointguard]

Uh.... some things Rose has a big edge in that don't show up in stats? Ballhandling, court vision primarily. Rose just knows how to play the game better. Just because two players have similar stats doesn't mean they are equals. Ballhandling and court vision are HUGE, important things when it comes to a PG. Rose is so much better in those two things, it's really not even close.

Westbrook has the most slippery, unstable ballhandling I've ever seen in a top tier PG. Compare his ballhandling to all the other "elite" PG's and you'll see a big drop off. Same with his passing/playmaking.
This.
Passing, control, pace, IQ, leadership, ball-handling, knowing his players, court vision, reading defenses, reading game situation, alpha status, more responsibility, experience, on court coaching, knowing when to step up, creativity, providing team harmony, judgment, balance, facilitation are all thing that immediately jump out at me in favor or Rose. If Rose wasn't hurt early in games he would be scoring more as well.

[cavsfanatic]

They are the same player. Don't believe the hype that Rose plays with nobody and Westbrook should pass to Durant more. Rose would play the same way in Okc

[All Net]

They are closer than people think but mentioning the bulls record without rose is pointless... Look who they played.

[cavsfanatic]

This.
Passing, control, pace, IQ, leadership, ball-handling, knowing his players, court vision, reading defenses, reading game situation, alpha status, more responsibility, experience, on court coaching, knowing when to step up, creativity, providing team harmony, judgment, balance, facilitation are all thing that immediately jump out at me in favor or Rose. If Rose wasn't hurt early in games he would be scoring more as well.
GTFOH.

[Kyle_korver]

As far as I'm concerned, they're the premier athletes at the PG position. Both are athletic slashers with inconsistent jump shots who live or die by getting to the rim. Both are top 5-10 players, and top 5 PG's behind Chris Paul.

Rose: 35.4mpg/23/3/8/45fg%/54ts%

Westbrook: 35.5mpg/24/5/6/47fg%/54ts%

What am I missing; What makes Rose definitively better than Westbrook? Why is it that Westbrook is labeled a chucker and Rose a top 5 player?
THANK YOU I wonder the exact same thing ... Westbrook is a way better defender too .. Imagine him with an offense as him as a first option on a great defensive team like the bulls .. He would average at Least 25+

[Pharcyde]

Or, maybe because they win with defense, and he's not that good a defender.
Rose is a good defender.

[StateOfMind12]

Or, maybe because they win with defense, and he's not that good a defender.
Rose is one of the best man to man defensive PGs in the league. He isn't that great defensively at any other aspect of defense but in terms of man to man defense, Rose is excellent.

I could have sworn the OP a few weeks ago said that Westbrook is not an elite PG, now he is saying he is trying to argue that Westbrook is better than Rose? :oldlol:

Rose is a smarter player than Westbrook and that is enough for Rose to be better. Rose has advantages over Westbrook in other aspects as well but the main aspect is IQ.

[Go Getter]

Coach K knows more about basketball than anyone on this board I'd wager and he chose D. Rose over Westbrook as his floor general.

That's enough for me.

[kingkong]

The human mind is a very powerful thing.

true

[Pointguard]

Or, maybe because they win with defense, and he's not that good a defender.

No. Because they played bad teams. Miami plays as good a defense and they got three super offensive talents. Milwaukee is a defensive team and they aren't winning. The Lakers with its three mega mismatches is right there defensively as good as Chicago this year as well. Boston, Philly, Dallas is very much in the same category defensively. And most of these teams have super offensive talents. But Chicago is the only team that can win on defense alone. Get that weak, last year crap out of here. Chicago's offense is much better this year.

When Rose was crushing the other star players at his position last year, yall were saying the same thing. Just owe up and stop hating.

[tontoz]

Westbrook averages only 5.6 assists and 4.0 turnovers. that is a piss poor assist/turnover ratio for a starting pg.

[DMAVS41]

Coach K knows more about basketball than anyone on this board I'd wager and he chose D. Rose over Westbrook as his floor general.

That's enough for me.

The NBA game and the international game are far different.

Its a toss up this year as to who is the better player. And sound arguments can be made for Westbrook over Rose and Rose over Westbrook.

And depending on how much you factor in clutch play, Westbrook has a huge advantage in that area this year.

[clayton]

Durant draws attentions. Rose has none.

[Pointguard]

GTFOH.
If I name you 20 things he does better its your time to shine and make me look bad. Stand up.

[liquidrage]

Coach K knows more about basketball than anyone on this board I'd wager and he chose D. Rose over Westbrook as his floor general.

That's enough for me.

LOL. That one backfires on you. But I think your initial point is pointless anyways and doesn't mean much. But if it did, you might want to re-evaluate who got more crunchtime minutes. Rose started, they usually both finished, but twice Westbrook got more minute down the stretch then Rose.

[StateOfMind12]

Westbrook averages only 5.6 assists and 4.0 turnovers. that is a piss poor assist/turnover ratio for a starting pg.
That is mainly because their offense consists of nothing but isolation and pick and roll. There is a reason why the Thunder are ranked 29th in the league in assists. Westbrook doesn't even run the pick and roll most of the time, it is usually ran by Harden.

[pegasus]

Nothing tangible really.

Just media bias and bs perceptions.

You'll hear in this thread that Rose is more clutch....but that hasn't been the case at all this year actually. In fact, Westbrook has been far more clutch this year.

The worst post of the year!:applause:

[tontoz]

That is mainly because their offense consists of nothing but isolation and pick and roll. There is a reason why the Thunder are ranked 29th in the league in assists. Westbrook doesn't even run the pick and roll most of the time, it is usually ran by Harden.


Has it occurred to you that it is run frequently by Harden because he might be better at it?

[Pointguard]

The NBA game and the international game are far different.

Its a toss up this year as to who is the better player. And sound arguments can be made for Westbrook over Rose and Rose over Westbrook.

And depending on how much you factor in clutch play, Westbrook has a huge advantage in that area this year.

He doesn't have a huge advantage. That's just plain false. Stop flat out lying. You did this same craziness last year saying CJ Watson was a better defender because his man shot worse than Rose's man. You had your stats right but you totally lacked concept. And now you're on it again.

Clutch is passing, controlling tempo, winning, making the right play.
You are comparing an Alpha to a Beta. Rose's responsibility is flat out worth much more. Westbrook is a wild Beta at that. He's a great player but winning a game is usually not on his shoulder.

[mjokc]

Westbrook = Rose in a small market, if roles were reversed it would be Westbrook getting all the praise and Rose being called the chucker. Also, rose gets away with the most blatant travels / charges that I've ever seen a single player get away with on a consistent basis.

[DMAVS41]

He doesn't have a huge advantage. That's just plain false. Stop flat out lying. You did this same craziness last year saying CJ Watson was a better defender because his man shot worse than Rose's man. You had your stats right but you totally lacked concept. And now you're on it again.

Clutch is passing, controlling tempo, winning, making the right play.
You are comparing an Alpha to a Beta. Rose's responsibility is flat out worth much more. Westbrook is a wild Beta at that. He's a great player but winning a game is usually not on his shoulder.

Rose would be the 2nd best player on the Thunder as well. Durant is just better. LOL

And you can come up with as many excuses as you want, Westbrook is performing better in crunch time than Rose this year. Its just a fact.

They are very similar players. Not sure who is better actually. To act like its not a legit question is just silly. Westbrook has his flaws, but media bias and bs perceptions are revising history big time.

Basically what Rose fans want to be able to say:

Rose is better because he just is....LOL

[Eat Like A Bosh]

I think Westbrook is almost as good as Rose. And maybe he is or could be.

Rose is basically a less reckless smart-decision-maker version of Westbrook.
And Westbrook has Durant.

[StateOfMind12]

Has it occurred to you that it is run frequently by Harden because he might be better at it?
I never said otherwise. I'm just explaining it to you why his assists are low and have gone down this season.

Russell Westbrook and James Harden remind me of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

[mjokc]

Rose would be the 2nd best player on the Thunder as well. Durant is just better. LOL

And you can come up with as many excuses as you want, Westbrook is performing better in crunch time than Rose this year. Its just a fact.

They are very similar players. Not sure who is better actually. To act like its not a legit question is just silly. Westbrook has his flaws, but media bias and bs perceptions are revising history big time.

Basically what Rose fans want to be able to say:

Rose is better because he just is....LOL

Dude speaks the truth.

[Go Getter]

LOL. That one backfires on you. But I think your initial point is pointless anyways and doesn't mean much. But if it did, you might want to re-evaluate who got more crunchtime minutes. Rose started, they usually both finished, but twice Westbrook got more minute down the stretch then Rose.


In a forum full of idiots and fanatics Coach K's opinion isn't valid?

Coach K doesn't have any ties to any NBA organization and he thinks Rose is the best PG in the league.

That counts for something.....it certain counts more than your opinion.

[Go Getter]

The NBA game and the international game are far different.

Its a toss up this year as to who is the better player. And sound arguments can be made for Westbrook over Rose and Rose over Westbrook.

And depending on how much you factor in clutch play, Westbrook has a huge advantage in that area this year.
:facepalm

[Go Getter]

This dude frequently says stuff like "it's a fact" with 0 proof to back it up.:facepalm

[tikay0]

Pretty much, the consencus is that westbrook's handles arent that great. where as rose's are elite. now put all the opposing team's defensive attention soley towards westbrook, and that equals more to's than he already has, and less points due to said non elite ball handling. its pretty easy to understand. can you imagine rose's ppg avg. If he had another elite offensive threat in durant and harden taking most of the pressure off of him. its night and day when your the second fiddle and when your the man on your team. 5assts. And 4 to's speaks for itself bruhs. thats mediocre for even sg standards let alone pg standards. add to the fact that rose controls and is depended on the ofeense of his team a lot a lot more than westbrook. ive never watched westbrook play and been like "wow, hes controlling the pace and fliw of the game." its usually attack or pass it to durant and harden,then they do their usual iso moves. put rose on the thunder, and we wouldnt even be talking about the heat. on top of all that, rose's mentality is more mature in bball terms. if he started with a player like durant he wouldnt be avg. As many points, because he'd make sure durant got his shots every sibgle night. its all about winning with derrick. holla back.

[Pointguard]

Rose would be the 2nd best player on the Thunder as well. Durant is just better. LOL

And you can come up with as many excuses as you want, Westbrook is performing better in crunch time than Rose this year. Its just a fact.

They are very similar players. Not sure who is better actually. To act like its not a legit question is just silly. Westbrook has his flaws, but media bias and bs perceptions are revising history big time.

Basically what Rose fans want to be able to say:

Rose is better because he just is....LOL
Westbrook is 69th in the league in assist to turnover ratio. Two high ball handling centers are ranked higher than him. And that's his main responsibility and he isn't near being on par with another starting PG. He might have the highest assist/turnover ratio in the history of the sport for a winning team. And you are saying its the media revising history? And you are comparing him to the best PG, CP3 has an argument here, in the age of Point Guards.

Very different if Westbrook was an Alpha, that would mean the responsibility is burdensome and you have to take chances. But he isn't an Alpha. As Tontoz and State of Mind say above, he's bumped out of his role when the game is on the line. LOL, and you think he's equal to D Rose? You think Brewer is going to take over and do the pick and roll for the Bulls when the game is on the line? You think Westbrook can control pace like Rose? You think he's the leader that Rose is? You think if he was an Alpha he could handle double and triple teams? He's turnover prone as an Beta and being the third option when the game is on the line. He can't score like Rose when he's not the focus of the defense.

Please tell me you can seriously answer yes to any of those questions.

[Pointguard]

Pretty much, the consencus is that westbrook's handles arent that great. where as rose's are elite. now put all the opposing team's defensive attention soley towards westbrook, and that equals more to's than he already has, and less points due to said non elite ball handling. its pretty easy to understand. can you imagine rose's ppg avg. If he had another elite offensive threat in durant and harden taking most of the pressure off of him. its night and day when your the second fiddle and when your the man on your team. 5assts. And 4 to's speaks for itself bruhs. thats mediocre for even sg standards let alone pg standards. add to the fact that rose controls and is depended on the ofeense of his team a lot a lot more than westbrook. ive never watched westbrook play and been like "wow, hes controlling the pace and fliw of the game." its usually attack or pass it to durant and harden,then they do their usual iso moves. put rose on the thunder, and we wouldnt even be talking about the heat. on top of all that, rose's mentality is more mature in bball terms. if he started with a player like durant he wouldnt be avg. As many points, because he'd make sure durant got his shots every sibgle night. its all about winning with derrick. holla back.
Excellent points!

[Bigsmoke]

Rose is better in the clutch, better at controlling the tempo of the game, more skilled, less turnover prone, passer, better penetrater "if thats a word" and finisher, ect.

Westbrook is a better defender and rebounder and thats it. how do u be a PG who averages 5 assists and 4 turnovers?

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Does anyone actually think that if Westbrook was on the Bulls then the Bulls would be a title contender/best in the East? There is just no way a team led by westbrook would be a legitimate threat. He has the maturity of a 17 year old.


You guys dont know shit about basketball. Go shove your stats up your assess.

[Whoah10115]

Because he plays basketball more effectively.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Oh really?

Rose:

27.7 shots for 28.6 points

33% fg
0% 3p
65% ft


Westbrook

20.7 shots for 29.7 points

47% fg
55% 3p
91% ft

Yea.....uhhhhh.....:no:

[k0kakw0rld]

Rose is a smarter player
Really? :facepalm Both low bb IQ

Westbrook is better period. He will never become passive if LeBron guards him.

[DMAVS41]

Westbrook is 69th in the league in assist to turnover ratio. Two high ball handling centers are ranked higher than him. And that's his main responsibility and he isn't near being on par with another starting PG. He might have the highest assist/turnover ratio in the history of the sport for a winning team. And you are saying its the media revising history? And you are comparing him to the best PG, CP3 has an argument here, in the age of Point Guards.

Very different if Westbrook was an Alpha, that would mean the responsibility is burdensome and you have to take chances. But he isn't an Alpha. As Tontoz and State of Mind say above, he's bumped out of his role when the game is on the line. LOL, and you think he's equal to D Rose? You think Brewer is going to take over and do the pick and roll for the Bulls when the game is on the line? You think Westbrook can control pace like Rose? You think he's the leader that Rose is? You think if he was an Alpha he could handle double and triple teams? He's turnover prone as an Beta and being the third option when the game is on the line. He can't score like Rose when he's not the focus of the defense.

Please tell me you can seriously answer yes to any of those questions.

All these are...are excuses.

Westbrook and Rose are two extremely similar players and acting like Rose is on a different level is laughable.....but expected.

[madmax]

they are pretty much equal players, as their team records and stats suggest:confusedshrug: Media would love to tell you otherwise, but Chicago is known for overhyping their heroes anyway...

[DMAVS41]

they are pretty much equal players, as their team records and stats suggest:confusedshrug: Media would love to tell you otherwise, but Chicago is known for overhyping their heroes anyway...

Bingo....:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Pointguard]

Rose is better in the clutch, better at controlling the tempo of the game, most skilled, less turnover prone, passer, better penetrater "if thats a word" and finisher, ect.

Westbrook is a better defender and rebounder and thats it. how do u be a PG who averages 5 assists and 4 turnover?
That is a bit ironic. Because to listen a lot of the Rose nay sayer's here, Westbrook would be idea for the Bulls because the team is a defensive and rebounding team. And here is Westbrook, somewhat similar, and good in those two areas, yet as OhnoTimNoSho says above, the team would be questionable with Westbrook at the helm despite the two being somewhat similar.

[liquidrage]

In a forum full of idiots and fanatics Coach K's opinion isn't valid?

Coach K doesn't have any ties to any NBA organization and he thinks Rose is the best PG in the league.

That counts for something.....it certain counts more than your opinion.

Coach K picking a player for his team doesn't mean player A is better then B. It means Coach K thought more of that player for what HE wanted to do given the team.

And the problem here is Coach K didn't show more for Rose then Westbrook. He played Westbrook over Rose a few times, but almost all the time they were 2 of the guards that closed out games together.

[Pointguard]

they are pretty much equal players, as their team records and stats suggest:confusedshrug: Media would love to tell you otherwise, but Chicago is known for overhyping their heroes anyway...
Care to show me an article in the media that says Rose is better? If anything they are extremely kind to Westbrook.

[Glide2keva]

He isn't obviously. Everyone is better than Rose, including guys who aren't even in the league yet.

Rose is a scrub.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Does anyone actually think that if Westbrook was on the Bulls then the Bulls would be a title contender/best in the East? There is just no way a team led by westbrook would be a legitimate threat. He has the maturity of a 17 year old.


You guys dont know shit about basketball. Go shove your stats up your assess.
/Thread....

And once again...OP is a dumb ass hater, as usual. I'm seriously starting to think this fool doesn't even WATCH basketball

[liquidrage]

/Thread....

And once again...OP is a dumb ass hater, as usual. I'm seriously starting to think this fool doesn't even WATCH basketball

Yes, because he really has a horrible IQ. Despite the fact that (stealing someone elses stupid point) Coach K loved Westbrook and so does Brooks.

The Bulls are a playoff team with your mom at point apparently, so giving Rose all the credit for shot jacking on a defensive first team is just idol-ism from Rose-lovers IMO.

[LABean]

I'd take Westbrick over Rose. :confusedshrug:

[Tenchi Ryu]

Yes, because he really has a horrible IQ. Despite the fact that (stealing someone elses stupid point) Coach K loved Westbrook and so does Brooks.

The Bulls are a playoff team with your mom at point apparently, so giving Rose all the credit for shot jacking on a defensive first team is just idol-ism from Rose-lovers IMO.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Tenchi Ryu]

I'd take Westbrick over Rose. :confusedshrug:
Yes, we know LABean

[LABean]

Yes, we know LABean

:lol

I hope you didn't get that I think Rose sucks from that.
He's a very good player. :applause:

[Pointguard]

All these are...are excuses.

Westbrook and Rose are two extremely similar players and acting like Rose is on a different level is laughable.....but expected.
Excuses :confusedshrug: Rose is an Alpha. Westbrook is a Beta or less when Harden is playing = Reality.

Excuses :confusedshrug: Westbrook has the worse assist/turnover ratio ever heard of from a contending team. And that's a guarantee.

Excuses :confusedshrug: Opposing teams trap Rose at the end of games. At the end of games Westbrook's isn't even the main ball-handler anymore. He gets demoted.

Excuses :confusedshrug: Where do you see excuses? You have to be crazy to think Rose doesn't have more responsibilities and takes care of them better than Westbrook. And its only close to people who know nothing about the game.

[DMAVS41]

Excuses :confusedshrug: Rose is an Alpha. Westbrook is a Beta or less when Harden is playing = Reality.

Excuses :confusedshrug: Westbrook has the worse assist/turnover ratio ever heard of from a contending team. And that's a guarantee.

Excuses :confusedshrug: Opposing teams trap Rose at the end of games. At the end of games Westbrook's isn't even the main ball-handler anymore. He gets demoted.

Excuses :confusedshrug: Where do you see excuses? You have to be crazy to think Rose doesn't have more responsibilities and takes care of them better than Westbrook. And its only close to people who know nothing about the game.

Its really not. Rose fans...like Kobe fans....act like he plays with the worst help ever.

Funny how last year Rose was choking his ass in the ecf off and his team still gave him plenty of chances to win.

I'm not even saying Westbrook is better. I'm saying they are on the same level. ONly a person that knows nothing about the game can honestly say that Rose is on a different level than Westbrook.

[I.Malcolm]

Westbrook is barely the 2nd best player on his team.

Switch Westbrook and Rose around and the Bulls drop to a 5 seed tops, IMO, and the Thunder become a dynasty. Rose would easily put up 20/10 with Durant and Harden.

[Pointguard]

He isn't obviously. Everyone is better than Rose, including guys who aren't even in the league yet.

Rose is a scrub.
Ha! Yes, March Madness!

[MASH Transit]

I would like to address a few points made by Rose supporters in this threads.

First, for those who argue that the Bulls played bad teams while Rose was out, therefore them going 7-3 without him shouldn't be a knock against how dependent their success is upon his impact: Do you realize that the Bulls, even with Rose, have played one of the weakest schedules in the league? Could I not just as easily use this fact to argue that his stat line has been skewed by feeding on bad teams in a weak conference, and that because of that Westbrook's stat line is more impressive?

Secondly, for those who cite Rose's superior decision making and shot selection as reasons for his perceived superiority over Westbrook, have you not considered the fact that Westbrook is a significantly better rebounder(especially offensively), and is much more adept at creating turnovers on the defensive end? Would these not balance out Rose's advantages?

Lastly, for those knocking Westbrook's assist to turnover ratio: Are you aware that Westbrook, during two separate seasons, finished with a higher assist per game average and ast% than Rose has at any point in his career, including this season?

[Pointguard]

Its really not. Rose fans...like Kobe fans....act like he plays with the worst help ever.
What are you talking about? Most of my stuff is primarily about Westbrook. Rose is the unquestioned main man on his team. He is the point guard and the guy with all the pg responsibilities and the Alpha responsibilities. He doesn't look for somebody else to make the big shots.


Funny how last year Rose was choking his ass in the ecf off and his team still gave him plenty of chances to win.
Curious, who stepped up? You can't win games with nobody stepping up. Its easy to step up when they are trapping and using their resources on one guy. Who stepped up? When Dirk was shooting like Rose in the last three games of the finals, Terry stepped up and was much more dependable. Who stepped up for the Bulls? And Dirk gets to be ranked top 20 in your all time list despite having choked much worse and having guys like Terry and Josh Howard become Alphas in his place. Rose ain't never did no ish like that :lol


I'm not even saying Westbrook is better. I'm saying they are on the same level. ONly a person that knows nothing about the game can honestly say that Rose is on a different level than Westbrook.
Superstar, best at his position (CP3 Arguable tho, Rose pulls rank on him), not the same as a Beta that is the worse in the league at handling his most basic responsibilities. Westbrook is a heck of a player but he's not there yet.

[I.Malcolm]

I would like to address a few points made by Rose supporters in this threads.

First, for those who argue that the Bulls played bad teams while Rose was out, therefore them going 7-3 without him shouldn't be a knock against how dependent their success is upon his impact: Do you realize that the Bulls, even with Rose, have played one of the weakest schedules in the league? Could I not just as easily use this fact to argue that his stat line has been skewed by feeding on bad teams in a weak conference, and that because of that Westbrook's stat line is more impressive?

Secondly, for those who cite Rose's superior decision making and shot selection as reasons for his perceived superiority over Westbrook, have you not considered the fact that Westbrook is a significantly better rebounder(especially offensively), and is much more adept at creating turnovers on the defensive end? Would these not balance out Rose's advantages?

Lastly, for those knocking Westbrook's assist to turnover ratio: Are you aware that Westbrook, during two separate seasons, finished with a higher assist per game average and ast% than Rose has at any point in his career, including this season?

Irrelevant. I don't need my PG to be a great rebounder & steals are not anything to base a players defensive prowess on.

So no, those don't balance it out at all.

Westbrook avging 1 APG more than Rose the last season isn't surprising at all. he should be averaging at least two or three more per game solely because of Durant.

So the fact that Westbrook is getting under 6 dimes a game is abysmal.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Superstar, best at his position (CP3 Arguable tho, Rose pulls rank on him), not the same as a Beta that is the worse in the league at handling his most basic responsibilities. Westbrook is a heck of a player but he's not there yet.
This.

Westbrook is good, damn good. Already got him as a top 10 player, and definitely a top 4 PG in the league. So while Rose is better, its not like people are saying Westbrook is garbage, its just that as good as Westbrook is, Rose is just better at the job and basketball in general. Controls his team better, makes better decisions, and can be relied on making the SMART play at crunch time.

[DMAVS41]

What are you talking about? Most of my stuff is primarily about Westbrook. Rose is the unquestioned main man on his team. He is the point guard and the guy with all the pg responsibilities and the Alpha responsibilities. He doesn't look for somebody else to make the big shots.

Curious, who stepped up? You can't win games with nobody stepping up. Its easy to step up when they are trapping and using their resources on one guy. Who stepped up? When Dirk was shooting like Rose in the last three games of the finals, Terry stepped up and was much more dependable. Who stepped up for the Bulls? And Dirk gets to be ranked top 20 in your all time list despite having choked much worse and having guys like Terry and Josh Howard become Alphas in his place. Rose ain't never did no ish like that :lol

Superstar, best at his position (CP3 Arguable tho, Rose pulls rank on him), not the same as a Beta that is the worse in the league at handling his most basic responsibilities. Westbrook is a heck of a player but he's not there yet.

I disagree...sorry. Rose is not as good as Durant. Rose would also be the 2nd best player on the Thunder and Westbrook would of course be by far the best player on the Bulls.

So by your idiotic logic...if you just switched them...then Westbrook then instantly becomes better because he is an alpha and Rose would then be a beta.

And we all know that the Bulls win off defense and rebounding regardless and would have a great record with Westbrook as well.

Stay consistent.....if you do...then your logic makes no sense. Westbrook is not a worse player just because he plays with Durant.

[Tenchi Ryu]

So by your idiotic logic...if you just switched them...then Westbrook then instantly becomes better because he is an alpha and Rose would then be a beta.

No, cause Rose wouldn't be a beta. It would be a Lebron-Wade type Duo.

[DMAVS41]

No, cause Rose wouldn't be a beta. It would be a Lebron-Wade type Duo.

And what do you think Westbrook-Durant thing is? Westbrook is playing great in crunch time and playing great overall.

ROFL...do you ever watch the Thunder play? I think Durant is the better player but I can assure you the gap between Wade and Lebron is not any smaller than Westbrook and Durant.

LOL

[MASH Transit]

Excuses :confusedshrug: Rose is an Alpha. Westbrook is a Beta or less when Harden is playing = Reality.

Rose would be a second option on OKC as well. He'd also split PnR duties with Harden and Durant. Just like Westbrook. I hardly understand how this evidence of Rose's superiority.

You know who else were second options? Kobe Bryant and Scottie Pippen. Is Vince Carter better than they were because he spent the bulk of his career as his teams first scoring option?


Excuses :confusedshrug: Westbrook has the worse assist/turnover ratio ever heard of from a contending team. And that's a guarantee.

Westbrook, two times, has averaged more assist per game than Rose has at any point in his career.


Excuses :confusedshrug: Opposing teams trap Rose at the end of games. At the end of games Westbrook's isn't even the main ball-handler anymore. He gets demoted.

Teams also trap Westbrook. Watch more games.


Excuses :confusedshrug: Where do you see excuses? You have to be crazy to think Rose doesn't have more responsibilities and takes care of them better than Westbrook. And its only close to people who know nothing about the game.

You aren't proving anything. :confusedshrug:

[Cowboy Thunder]

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/happy-photo-9.jpg

[Pointguard]

Oh really?

Rose:

27.7 shots for 28.6 points

33% fg
0% 3p
65% ft


Westbrook

20.7 shots for 29.7 points

47% fg
55% 3p
91% ft

Yea.....uhhhhh.....:no:

Provide the background. You just threw out numbers that don't have attempts, turnovers, assist or other good point guard related responsibilities.

[maybeshewill13]

Sorry, if I have to go with

http://i.imgur.com/tAzOr.gif

vs

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m012yhXJOr1qj966mo1_500.gif

Then I'm going with option 1.

Hahaha love it.

I think Rose is the better player, just a little smarter, but there's not much in it. I agree Westbrook is a top 10 player this year for sure. Sitting at probably 9-10.

[MASH Transit]

Irrelevant. I don't need my PG to be a great rebounder

I don't need for my SF to be 6'11 with guard skills and unlimited range. But it helps, and certainly adds to the value of the individual player.


& steals are not anything to base a players defensive prowess on.

I never attempted to draw a connection between steals and defensive proficiency. I specifically mentioned the value in his ability to create turnovers, which is an instrumental aspect of transition play.


So no, those don't balance it out at all.

I disagree, for the reasons mentioned above.

A late game assist is not more more important than a late game offensive rebound that leads to a go ahead basket.


Westbrook avging 1 APG more than Rose the last season isn't surprising at all. he should be averaging at least two or three more per game solely because of Durant.

Actually, the opposite is true. He averages less assist because he splits ball handling duties with James Harden. You know whose averaging career highs in creation out of iso possessions? James Harden and Kevin Durant. You know whose averaging career near his career low in assist? Westbrook. The reasons why are obvious. You just have to watch the games.


So the fact that Westbrook is getting under 6 dimes a game is abysmal.

No, it isn't.

[maybeshewill13]

Sorry, if I have to go with

http://i.imgur.com/tAzOr.gif

vs


Hahahahaha I just realized Lebron in that pic for the first time. Look at his face. lmao. Biggest WTF face ever?

[Pointguard]

Rose would be a second option on OKC as well. He'd also split PnR duties with Harden and Durant. Just like Westbrook. I hardly understand how this evidence of Rose's superiority.

You know who else were second options? Kobe Bryant and Scottie Pippen. Is Vince Carter better than they were because he spent the bulk of his career as his teams first scoring option?
If Vince Carter had won an MVP without even star help and won more games than Shaq and Kobe together and they have equal rings not only would I think Vince is better than a MVPless Shaq, but Kobe would be a forgone conclusion. Why concern yourself with Alpha vs Beta if Alpha vs Alpha is questionable. Rose is responsible for the decision making, pace, distribution, and how the game is offensively played for his team. He does both Westbrook's job and Durants for his team.


Westbrook, two times, has averaged more assist per game than Rose has at any point in his career.

Durant has consistently lead the league and averaged around 30ppg. Rose teammates have only hit 30points like two times in the last 100 games. Durant is one of the best shooters the game has ever known. Amazingly Westbrook is very close to equal assist to turnovers. Westbrook is supposed to have more assist per game. What Westbrook is doing is truly historical.


Teams also trap Westbrook. Watch more games.
Trapping a guy because he's the most potent scoring machine on the team is very different than trapping a player because you know he's a turnover machine. :lol


You aren't proving anything. :confusedshrug:
I wasn't talking to you anyway. Are you Dmav's under a different name?

[Pointguard]

I disagree...sorry. Rose is not as good as Durant. Rose would also be the 2nd best player on the Thunder and Westbrook would of course be by far the best player on the Bulls.

So by your idiotic logic...if you just switched them...then Westbrook then instantly becomes better because he is an alpha and Rose would then be a beta.

And we all know that the Bulls win off defense and rebounding regardless and would have a great record with Westbrook as well.

Stay consistent.....if you do...then your logic makes no sense. Westbrook is not a worse player just because he plays with Durant.
You didn't answer one question I put to you cause you know you can't.

Durant is a shot maker. Rose does what Durant and Westbrook do on their teams. Tenchi Ryu set you up. Even you lean toward Rose as being better than Westbrook. Nobody in their right head is going to say Westbrook is a better leader and makes better decisions than Rose. He's careless with the rock yet you have him supposedly at 1A with Durant being 1A right next to him. I have Rose as more of natural leader than either. Rose is the leader of max team effort. Westbrook and Durant out talent teams. Very little assist and team ball - Harden is the brains and the team oriented guy. Rose on OKC is no less than 1A. His responsibilities and presence to the team would be bigger than Durant's. Durant could be more impactful with his shooting but no way would he be the brains, decision maker, team oriented guy, the guy that calms the team - Harden is more that guy now on OKC than Durant is. At least from what I seen.

I bring up the Beta status to demonstrate to you how much easier it is for Westbrook. If teams could focus on Westbrook as an alpha his horrid assist to turnover ratio would be among the worse ever for a team with a decent record. He can live in the shadow of the best shooter in the game yet be the worse PG in the league at the most basic of responsibilities. If Westbrook was the major focus of defenses he would be a train wreck, heck he's one now. He's a major talent but Harden is the better set up player and he's looked for at the end of the game.

According to you Westbrook would the first guy the best at his position despite not being very skilled at his position, being among the worse of taking care of the basic fundamentals of his position, while having another guy that takes over his responsibilities at the end of the game. All of this while its the age of the point guard. I'm not convinced.

[oolalaa]

Westbrook = Rose in the same way that Kobe = Jordan.

That is all.

[tmacattack33]

Rose is better because he plays smarter (which is weird considering Rose cheated on the SAT because he couldn't get past like the 5th percentile on it).

[Bigsmoke]

again.. how do u average 5.4 assists and commit 4 turnovers and be better than an MVP? :lol

Rose is better. stop trying to think that picking underdogs is cool or something.

[imdaman99]

if rose is an 8 than westbrook is a 7.99. get off your high horses stupid morons from chicago overratin the hell out their guys :lol

[ballinhun8]

if rose is an 8 than westbrook is a 7.99. get off your high horses stupid morons from chicago overratin the hell out their guys :lol





God Damn son do you ever get tired if hating on Chicago and the Bulls???




We know the Knicks are a joke of a franchise but take your hating elsewhere, to a team similar to yours, like the Bobcats or something.

[hkfosho]

if rose is an 8 than westbrook is a 7.99. get off your high horses stupid morons from chicago overratin the hell out their guys :lol

if rose is 8, westbrook is 6.5

next

[dee-rose]

5.6 assists to 4.0 Turnovers.
For any elite player, that is awful.
For an elite PG, that's just flat out unacceptable. Turrible, really.

Both of these guys' main weaknesses last year were playmaking. Rose has improved, while Westbrook has clearly regressed. Yeah, Westbrook scores a bit more, but he takes more shots and has less defensive attention.

The worst part about this discussion is that their stats aren't even very similar this year.

[CardiacKemba]

5.6 assists to 4.0 Turnovers.
For any elite player, that is awful.
For an elite PG, that's just flat out unacceptable. Turrible, really.

Both of these guys' main weaknesses last year were playmaking. Rose has improved, while Westbrook has clearly regressed. Yeah, Westbrook scores a bit more, but he takes more shots and has less defensive attention.

The worst part about this discussion is that their stats aren't even very similar this year.

Westbrook regressed? Watch an OKC game please.

[dee-rose]

Westbrook regressed? Watch an OKC game please.
his PLAYMAKING has regressed. He's a great scorer/player. I like the guy, but he should honestly be a SG, and he could be because he's a good enough defender to check most guards. He was a shooting guard in college wasn't he? OKC has a lot more offensive potential than they are showing b.c of how much Westbrook and Durant isolate, but I guess that goes more on the coach than it does on the players.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

If rose was on the thunder the thunder would be the best team in the NBA hands down.

[jrong]

but I can assure you the gap between Wade and Lebron is not any smaller than Westbrook and Durant.LOL

Uh, Gino, were you possessed when you typed this?

[Mr. Jabbar]

So we gonna act like westbrick wasn't among the top 3 dumbest nba players not so long ago?

[DMAVS41]

Uh, Gino, were you possessed when you typed this?

Why would you think that is a crazy statement?

Lebron is quite easily the best player in the game this year in my opinion.

I'm not sure who has been better this year between Wade and Westbrook. Therefore the gap between the best player (Lebron) and Wade isn't any smaller than it is between Durant and Westbrook.

You know I'm a huge Wade guy, but do you really think Wade has been better than Westbrook so far this year? I really don't.

[jrong]

Why would you think that is a crazy statement?

Lebron is quite easily the best player in the game this year in my opinion.

I'm not sure who has been better this year between Wade and Westbrook. Therefore the gap between the best player (Lebron) and Wade isn't any smaller than it is between Durant and Westbrook.

You know I'm a huge Wade guy, but do you really think Wade has been better than Westbrook so far this year? I really don't.

Well, considering Wade is heading toward becoming the second player this year with a PER above 30 (and if it happens, it will be the first time in history that two teammates exceed it), and this is in spite of his injury-limited first month, then yes, I think he's still an exponentially better player than Westbrook.

But, here's the head-to-head comparison (excluding tonight's games)

Westbrook: 35.4 mins, 23.7 pts, 4.8 rebs, 5.5 asts, 1.8 stls, .3 blks, 46.6% Fgs, 4 TOs

Wade: 31.9 mins, 22.4 pts, 4.4 rebs, 4.9 asts, 1.7 stls, 1.3 blks, 50.2% Fgs, 2.6 TOs

I have to say I'm a little disappointed in you. I shouldn't have had to post these numbers; you should've known intuitively that comparing Westbrook to Wade is lunacy. Wade is SO much better on a production/efficiency basis. He's simply more dominant in fewer minutes. And we haven't even discussed defense, where Wade has him by chasms.

To the extent that any gap exists between James and Wade, it's largely perceptional. LeBron does have more aggregate impact on the game over 48 minutes than Wade or anyone else, which technically is the definition of the best player in the game. However, when it comes time to produce the points necessary to win a game, Wade is the best option. This is the essence of the Heat's 1ab/1ba workload distribution.

However, Westbrook isn't a 1ab/1ba or even a 1b. He's a CLEAR #2 which isn't even close to approximate to the situation that the Heat have.

P.S. Rose > Westbrook

[DMAVS41]

Well, considering Wade is heading toward becoming the second player this year with a PER above 30 (and if it happens, it will be the first time in history that two teammates exceed it), and this is in spite of his injury-limited first month, then yes, I think he's still an exponentially better player than Westbrook.

But, here's the head-to-head comparison (excluding tonight's games)

Westbrook: 35.4 mins, 23.7 pts, 4.8 rebs, 5.5 asts, 1.8 stls, .3 blks, 46.6% Fgs, 4 TOs

Wade: 31.9 mins, 22.4 pts, 4.4 rebs, 4.9 asts, 1.7 stls, 1.3 blks, 50.2% Fgs, 2.6 TOs

I have to say I'm a little disappointed in you. I shouldn't have had to post these numbers; you should've known intuitively that comparing Westbrook to Wade is lunacy. Wade is SO much better on a production/efficiency basis. He's simply more dominant in fewer minutes. And we haven't even discussed defense, where Wade has him by chasms.

To the extent that any gap exists between James and Wade, it's largely perceptional. LeBron does have more aggregate impact on the game over 48 minutes than Wade or anyone else, which technically is the definition of the best player in the game. However, when it comes time to produce the points necessary to win a game, Wade is the best option. This is the essence of the Heat's 1ab/1ba workload distribution.

However, Westbrook isn't a 1ab/1ba or even a 1b. He's a CLEAR #2 which isn't even close to approximate to the situation that the Heat have.

P.S. Rose > Westbrook


A few things:

1. Lebron is better than Wade. Its not really debatable at all this year. I'm shocked you would even insinuate that there is no gap between Wade and Lebron this year. Its quite laughable.

2. Playing less minutes is not a positive. You have less impact on the game if you play less minutes.

3. Westbrook is not a clear number 2. Its very much a similar situation to Wade and Lebron. What is so funny is that you use clutch play as the reason Wade is closer to Lebron....

I'm disappointed in you saying that because if you really hold consistent...then these following numbers should destroy your whole notion:

In the clutch this year (per 36):

Wade

19.3 points
35% fg
0% 3
65% ft

Westbrook

29.3 points
46% fg
55% 3
91% ft

So i'm of course confused. You say Wade is closer to Lebron because (and I quote) "when its time to produce the points necessary to win the game, Wade is the best option.

Hmmmmm. But Westbrook has been far better than Wade at producing points necessary to win the game this year as the above shows.

And I'm assuming you would admit that Lebron is better than Durant overall. So if Lebron is better than Durant...and Westbrook has been better than Wade at producing points necessary to win the game (the criteria you used to claim Wade is close to Lebron)....then how is Westbrook not close to Durant?

Its also kind of silly how Lebron is outperforming Wade in crunch time this year...kind of blows your whole notion out of the water. Just in case you don't know the actual facts:

Lebron in crunch time this year

26.7 points
44% fg
38% 3
67% ft

Again...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[D-Wade316]

A few things:

1. Lebron is better than Wade. Its not really debatable at all this year. I'm shocked you would even insinuate that there is no gap between Wade and Lebron this year. Its quite laughable.

2. Playing less minutes is not a positive. You have less impact on the game if you play less minutes.

3. Westbrook is not a clear number 2. Its very much a similar situation to Wade and Lebron. What is so funny is that you use clutch play as the reason Wade is closer to Lebron....

I'm disappointed in you saying that because if you really hold consistent...then these following numbers should destroy your whole notion:

In the clutch this year (per 36):

Wade

19.3 points
35% fg
0% 3
65% ft

Westbrook

29.3 points
46% fg
55% 3
91% ft

So i'm of course confused. You say Wade is closer to Lebron because (and I quote) "when its time to produce the points necessary to win the game, Wade is the best option.

Hmmmmm. But Westbrook has been far better than Wade at producing points necessary to win the game this year as the above shows.

And I'm assuming you would admit that Lebron is better than Durant overall. So if Lebron is better than Durant...and Westbrook has been better than Wade at producing points necessary to win the game (the criteria you used to claim Wade is close to Lebron)....then how is Westbrook not close to Durant?
Wade barely played in the second half of the Heat's 9-game winning stretch, because they were blowing teams out. Since the all-star break, Wade has played over 35+min in 3 games over 5 games(he fouled out in one game, and got injured in another).

[I.R.Beast]

As far as I'm concerned, they're the premier athletes at the PG position. Both are athletic slashers with inconsistent jump shots who live or die by getting to the rim. Both are top 5-10 players, and top 5 PG's behind Chris Paul.

Rose: 35.4mpg/23/3/8/45fg%/54ts%

Westbrook: 35.5mpg/24/5/6/47fg%/54ts%

What am I missing; What makes Rose definitively better than Westbrook? Why is it that Westbrook is labeled a chucker and Rose a top 5 player?
i favor westrbook because he's more emotionally expressive and seemingly more passionate than rose , but rose is a bit better at everything than westbrook is, he's more consistent, and is harder to gameplan for beacause of his top tier finishing ability. Westbrook = the guy you get if u wanted rose but the guy a few spots ahead of you drafted Rose . But i like i said i like westbrook more than rose. His passionate play makes him so easy to like. Rose has the dull look to him that gives off the cold assassain type of aura(which i like aswell but westbrook gets hyped and fired up andi I'm more drawn to that type of player. Also rose is not nearly as turnover prone as westbrook tends to be..

[jrong]

A few things:

1. Lebron is better than Wade. Its not really debatable at all this year. I'm shocked you would even insinuate that there is no gap between Wade and Lebron this year. Its quite laughable.

2. Playing less minutes is not a positive. You have less impact on the game if you play less minutes.

3. Westbrook is not a clear number 2. Its very much a similar situation to Wade and Lebron. What is so funny is that you use clutch play as the reason Wade is closer to Lebron....

I'm disappointed in you saying that because if you really hold consistent...then these following numbers should destroy your whole notion:

In the clutch this year (per 36):

Wade

19.3 points
35% fg
0% 3
65% ft

Westbrook

29.3 points
46% fg
55% 3
91% ft

So i'm of course confused. You say Wade is closer to Lebron because (and I quote) "when its time to produce the points necessary to win the game, Wade is the best option.

Hmmmmm. But Westbrook has been far better than Wade at producing points necessary to win the game this year as the above shows.

And I'm assuming you would admit that Lebron is better than Durant overall. So if Lebron is better than Durant...and Westbrook has been better than Wade at producing points necessary to win the game (the criteria you used to claim Wade is close to Lebron)....then how is Westbrook not close to Durant?

Have you gone full-on troll? How many Heat games have actually come down to the clutch this year?

Playing less minutes is not a positive?? So if a player can average 25 ppg in 30 minutes as Wade has been doing since he came back, it's not better than creating the same production in 40 minutes? Why do you think PER reflects that Wade is having a far better season than his averages indicate on their face. Because PER considers variables, among them minutes.

Wade's minutes are low because of a combination of over-caution and Heat blow-outs. Per 36 minutes, he's at 25/5/6, surpassing both his production and efficiency from last year. And typically, Wade's M.O. is to punish teams in the first half, then when the game is out of reach in the second, he lets his foot off the intensity pedal. If the games were still competitive, his averages would go higher yet.

As I said, LeBron meets the technical definition of best player-- he has the most impact on both sides of the ball over an entire game (however, his stat edge in games where both were healthy is more like 1 or 2 pts per game more than Wade rather than 5 pts; also, as I've pointed out before, the Heat's substitution patterns provide James built-in opportunities to accrue numbers that are denied to Wade). Having said that, I beleive the majority of Heat supporters are in agreement about who they want to have the ball at the end of games....

[Mr. Jabbar]

Ppl in this thread actually trying to discuss with DMAVS/Gino?

good luck

[gin17]

put westbrook on the bulls and the bulls become a bit worse. put rose on okc and they become even more unstoppable.

[DMAVS41]

Have you gone full-on troll? How many Heat games have actually come down to the clutch this year?

Playing less minutes is not a positive?? So if a player can average 25 ppg in 30 minutes as Wade has been doing since he came back, it's not better than creating the same production in 40 minutes? Why do you think PER reflects that Wade is having a far better season than his averages indicate on their face. Because PER considers variables, among them minutes.

Wade's minutes are low because of a combination of over-caution and Heat blow-outs. Per 36 minutes, he's at 25/5/6, surpassing both his production and efficiency from last year.

As I said, LeBron meets the technical definition of best player-- he has the most impact on both sides of the ball over an entire game (however, his stat edge in games where both were healthy is more like 1 or 2 pts per game more rather than 5 pts; also, as I've pointed out before, the Heat's substitution patterns provide James built-in opportunities to accrue numbers that are denied to Wade). Having said that, I beleive the majority of Heat supporters are in agreement about who they want to have the ball at the end of games....

Have you gone full out troll? You literally don't respond to anything in post. Your reasons for saying Wade is closer to Lebron got absolutely blown out of the water. LOL

And playing less minutes is not a positive. If you are far more productive in less minutes its a different story....but I don't consider what Wade has done this year to be far more productive than Westbrook.

Especially if you account for crunch time play...which was the basis for your whole post. Now you want to just ignore it as Westbrook is producing far better than Wade.

Does that not matter now?

Hilarious though....your own criteria is used against you.

[DMAVS41]

Jrong....

Who has been the better crunch time peformer...Wade or Westbrook?

[CardiacKemba]

Jrong....

Who has been the better crunch time peformer...Wade or Westbrook?

Wade has had more 'game winners' so to speak, so I assume most people would say him. However Westbrook has been bigger in crunch time, closing out games, taking over down the stretch. It's stupid for people to distinctively point out that someone is 'clutch' if they hit a game winner. For me, 'clutch' is your play in the last few minutes, not one single moment. Wade was pretty poor late in the game besides his last shot.

[DMAVS41]

Wade has had more 'game winners' so to speak, so I assume most people would say him. However Westbrook has been bigger in crunch time, closing out games, taking over down the stretch. It's stupid for people to distinctively point out that someone is 'clutch' if they hit a game winner. For me, 'clutch' is your play in the last few minutes, not one single moment. Wade was pretty poor late in the game besides his last shot.

Exactly. He's shooting 35% fg, 0% 3, and 65% ft...so far this season in crunch time.

Yet somehow jrong is using Wade's clutch play as the reason he's closer to Lebron than Westbrook is to Durant.

Now keep in mind that Westbrook is playing great in crunch time this year. Shooting 46% fg, 55% 3, 91% ft.

Its a total logic fail.

[iDefend5]

http://www.social-proof.com/opmisc.gif

[jrong]

Have you gone full out troll? You literally don't respond to anything in post. Your reasons for saying Wade is closer to Lebron got absolutely blown out of the water. LOL

And playing less minutes is not a positive. If you are far more productive in less minutes its a different story....but I don't consider what Wade has done this year to be far more productive than Westbrook.

Especially if you account for crunch time play...which was the basis for your whole post. Now you want to just ignore it as Westbrook is producing far better than Wade.

Does that not matter now?

Hilarious though....your own criteria is used against you.

You're using irrelevant criteria. Again how many Heat games have come down to the clutch? The word is "sample-size."

Honestly, though, this argument is beneath both Wade and myself. I'm getting tight in my throat at the notion that anyone would try to compare Westbrook. It's one of those ideas that should be a topical non-starter, categotrically rejected out-of-hand by any semi-knowledgeable observer. It's insulting, not to mention outright disrespectful.

But, for the love of God, Wade IS far more productive in fewer minutes. That's the explanation for this:

PER: Wade: 28.15; Westbrook: 23.49

.... Now is Wade "close" to LeBron? Well, he's the only player within 4 - 5 points in PER, so he's the "closest" in that respect. And in games he's played healthy, he's maintained the same statistical near-balance with him as last year.

So, it's a semantic argument. It is accurate to say that LeBron clearly has more effect within an individual game than anyone. So, in that respect, I suppose nobody is that "close".

On the other hand, when it comes down to ultimately winning, Wade can get the job done every bit as well. So if you have a team with two players and it's debatable which player produces better results with the ball in their hands, then in that sense, you would have to say the players are pretty "close."

[DMAVS41]

You're using irrelevant criteria. Again how many Heat games have come down to the clutch? The word is "sample-size."

Honestly, though, this argument is beneath both Wade and myself. I'm getting tight in my throat at the notion that anyone would try to compare Westbrook. It's one of those ideas that should be a topical non-starter, categotrically rejected out-of-hand by any semi-knowledgeable observer. It's insulting, not to mention outright disrespectful.

But, for the love of God, Wade IS far more productive in fewer minutes. That's the explanation for this:

PER: Wade: 28.15; Westbrook: 23.49

.... Now is Wade "close" to LeBron? Well, he's the only player within 4 - 5 points in PER, so he's the "closest" in that respect. And in games he's played healthy, he's maintained the same statistical near-balance with him as last year.

So, it's a semantic argument. It is accurate to say that LeBron clearly has more effect within an individual game than anyone. So, in that respect, I suppose nobody is that "close".

On the other hand, when it comes down to ultimately winning, Wade can get the job done every bit as well. So if you have a team with two players and it's debatable which player produces better results with the ball in their hands, then in that sense, you would have to say the players are pretty "close."

The criteria was yours? Now the end all be all is PER? Wow...just wow.

You brought up the crunch time play. Not me. You used it as the reason why Wade was closer to Lebron. Not me.

Now it just doesn't matter when you got shit on? Again...LOL.

Now its beneath you and Wade? Uttering that sentence is about as lame as it gets you ****ing ignorant elitist.

You throw out Wade's per 36 stats at 25/5/6 as if they are destroying Westbrook. Westbrook is averaging 24/5/6 per 36.

And this isn't even really about Wade vs Westbrook. Its about how close Westbrook has been to Durant and how close Wade has been to Lebron.

Lebron is better than Durant. I'll assume you will agree to that. Now...you seem to want to use PER. Ok...

Lebron's PER is 4.9 higher than Wade.
Durant's PER is 3.5 higher than Westbrook.

So again...another one of your criteria is used against you. You can't stay remotely consistent. So based on PER (the stat you love to use)....Westbrook is actually closer to Durant than Wade is to Lebron.

So lets summarize this. You claimed that PER is very very important. You claimed the crunch time play is very very important. You laughed at my statement that Westbrook is as close to or closer to Durant than Wade is to Lebron.

Now. Westbrook is closer to Durant in PER....and Westbrook is outperforming Wade in crunch time.

So please explain to me how you think its laughable to say what I did....

How many ways must I own you tonight?

[jrong]

The criteria was yours? Now the end all be all is PER? Wow...just wow.

You brought up the crunch time play. Not me. You used it as the reason why Wade was closer to Lebron. Not me.

Now it just doesn't matter when you got shit on? Again...LOL.

Now its beneath you and Wade? Uttering that sentence is about as lame as it gets you ****ing ignorant elitist.

You throw out Wade's per 36 stats at 25/5/6 as if they are destroying Westbrook. Westbrook is averaging 24/5/6 per 36.

And this isn't even really about Wade vs Westbrook. Its about how close Westbrook has been to Durant and how close Wade has been to Lebron.

Lebron is better than Durant. I'll assume you will agree to that. Now...you seem to want to use PER. Ok...

Lebron's PER is 4.9 higher than Wade.
Durant's PER is 3.5 higher than Westbrook.

So again...another one of your criteria is used against you. You can't stay remotely consistent. So based on PER (the stat you love to use)....Westbrook is actually closer to Durant than Wade is to Lebron.

How many ways must I own you tonight?

Own me? Round up some independent arbitrators on here and we'll have a scored debate. I'll put my intellect up against anyone's, sir.

But, beyond that, I'm done with you. I enjoy friendly discussion and even disagreement, but you've been steadily and progressively alienating most of your former friends on here. I've watched it happen. And instead of keeping this conversation confined to the level of vigorous argument, you chose to get personal with me. So now you have even one fewer person who will associate with you on the board.

I am not too dense to grasp what you are driving at-- that I'm hypocritical because I asserted that the relative equality between James and Wade lies in Wade's takeover ability, but I'm ignoring Westbrook's "superior" 2012 clutch stats.

Obviously, it's an artificial argument-- I already cited the minimal sample size of clutch stats for the Heat. And as far as Wade's "takeover rep", it wasn't born in 2012.

However, as I said, I have no interest in continuing this or further conversations with you. I have no desire to try to make my points to somebody who doesn't even maintain basic civility.

[JimmyConway]

Bravo, thank you for the thought-provoking analysis.Shutup you ******.

[DMAVS41]

Own me? Round up some independent arbitrators on here and we'll have a scored debate. I'll put my intellect up against anyone's, sir.

But, beyond that, I'm done with you. I enjoy friendly discussion and even disagreement, but you've been steadily and progressively alienating most of your former friends on here. I've watched it happen. And instead of keeping this conversation confined to the level of vigorous argument, you chose to get personal with me. So now you have even one fewer person who will associate with you on the board.

I am not too dense to grasp what you are driving at-- that I'm hypocritical because I asserted that the relative equality between James and Wade lies in Wade's takeover ability, but I'm ignoring Westbrook's "superior" 2012 clutch stats.

Obviously, it's an artificial argument-- I already cited the minimal sample size of clutch stats for the Heat. And as far as Wade's "takeover rep", it wasn't born in 2012.

However, as I said, I have no interest in continuing this or further conversations with you. I have no desire to try to make my points to somebody who doesn't even maintain basic civility.

Friends on a message board? LOL...and you called me out and called me a troll for saying something that is factually (based on your criteria) true.

Here is the translation of your post above:

Well shit. He just used every word I posted against me and now I can't do anything but make a post that isn't about the debate...but about him.

I said PER illustrates this stuff....but then he showed how Westbrook is closer to Durant in PER than Wade is to Lebron.

Then I said clutch play is what is determining this...then he showed how Westbrook has been more clutch than Wade this season.

So I'm stuck with nothing and my "superior" intellect just got rocked. I better bailout and say something about a previous year when the discussion is clearly about the players this year.

Well....that sucked. I'm done.

Was that close enough JRONG? :roll: :roll: :roll:


To summarize for those interested:

JRONG claims PER illustrates overall impact and play. He also claims that Wade is far closer to Lebron than Westbrook is to Durant. However, Westbrook is closer to Durant in PER than Wade is to Lebron.

JRONG claims that clutch play is another big reason why Wade is closer to Lebron. Yet not only is Lebron outperforming Wade in crunch time....so is Westbrook. And Durant is as well, but that doesn't matter.

So by both of his own measures and criteria, Westbrook is factually closer to Durant than Wade is to Lebron.

[Jotaro Durant]

:roll: :roll: :roll: jrong got bodied real talk:applause:

[guy]

Actually, the opposite is true. He averages less assist because he splits ball handling duties with James Harden. You know whose averaging career highs in creation out of iso possessions? James Harden and Kevin Durant. You know whose averaging career near his career low in assist? Westbrook. The reasons why are obvious. You just have to watch the games.


Well with that being the case, that makes his turnover issue that much more worse. Rose has a 2.8 assist/turnover ratio to Westbrook's 1.4 assist/turnover ratio and averages over more assists per game. He's double the ratio and averages 2 more assists per game. Its clear as day that Rose is a better playmaker then Westbrook right now and the scoring stats are so close you can easily argue that the only reason Westbrook's are slightly better is cause of the attention Durant gets and because he's more selfish then Rose.

[upside24]

Rose's bball IQ appears to be higher. I like Westbrook better though, he is an emotional player and very entertaining even if he has a few flaws.