Kareem vs. Moses

[jlauber]

How great was Moses Malone? The 6-10 center faced the 7-2 Kareem in 40 total games from the 76-77 season, thru Kareem's last season in 88-89.

Some here claim that Kareem's peak was in that 76-77 season, although I strongly believe that the most dominant Kareem played in the early 70's. His statistical peak came in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons.

Kareem was 29 in the 76-77 season, while Moses was 21. However, Moses jumped right to the ABA at age 19, so he was already in his third professional season by the time the two first met.

Now, granted, the two probably did not exclusively defend each other in every game, nor were they on the floor at the same time in portions of those games.

There are several interesting aspects to this "rivalry." I am only posting the known stats that I could find, and perhaps there are some here who can provide even more info. I did come up with every one of their scoring H2H's, all 40 of them. However, I could only find their FG%'s and rebounding numbers in their last 16 games.

And overall, Kareem team's went 21-19 against Moses, which was surprising, since Kareem played with much more talented teams in nearly all of their 13 seasons in the league together. In facr, Moses only played on ONE team that ever had a better record than Kareem, in those 13 seasons.

However, while Kareem's teams enjoyed 20-13 margin in their regular season H2H's, Moses' team went 6-1 against Kareem's in the post-season. BTW, Kareem's team's were often leveled in the post-season, despite having better regular season records. Included in those post-season H2H's, was the 80-81 Rockets, at 40-42, beating Kareem's 54-28 (Magic was injured and missed 37 games that season), 2-1 in the first round of the playoffs. And, of course, Moses' 82-83 Sixers, which went 65-17 swept Kareem's 58-24 Lakers, 4-0. That was the ONLY season in which Moses had a more talented roster, and they were clearly better, going a combined 6-0 against Kareem's team in the overall season. However, Kareem did miss one of their regular season H2H's that year, so Moses only went 5-0 against him that year.

How about their personal battles? While a much more prime Kareem, at age 29, outscored the 21 year old Moses in their first year H2H's, it was not a dramatic difference. Kareem outscored him in three of their four games, but his high game was only 29 points. And, by their fourth game that season, Moses outscored Kareem, 26-23.

Another interesting aspect was that while both players started declining somewhat after the 84-85 season, Moses' decline was sharper. Still. Moses generally outplayed Kareem even after that. But, Moses was not the dominant player that he was from the 78-79 season thru the 84-85 season.

And while Kareem won the MVP award in the 79-80 season, Moses was probably already the better player. In the 78-79 season, a 23 year old Moses exploded, and averaged 24.8 ppg, on .540 shooting, with an astonishing 17.6 rpg average (winning the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game.) Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, and shot .577. In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 24.8 ppg, on a sensational .604 shooting, but was on a severe decline in the rebounding department, only getting 10.8 rpg. Meanwhile, Moses was at 25.8 ppg, .502 shooting, and grabbing 14.5 rpg. BUT, H2H in that Kareem MVP season, Moses DRAMATICALLY outscored Kareem, by an average margin of 30 ppg to 20 ppg. And, I have no doubt that he probably dominated Kareem on the glass, as well.

From that 79-80 season, on, Moses was CLEARLY the better player. While Kareem's numbers continued to decline, Moses jusr DOMINATED the league. From the 80-81 season thru the 84-85 season, Moses was THE best player in the league (sorry Larry and Magic, but Moses was UNSTOPPABLE.) He LED the league in rebounding EVERY season in those five years, and and scoring seasons as high as 27.8 ppg, and even 31.1 ppg.

And, the Kareem-Moses H2H's, from the 79-80 thru the 84-85 seasons reflected Moses COMPLETE DOMINATION of Kareem, as well.

After that, both declined, and while Moses generally outplayed Kareem, neither were putting up spectacular numbers.

In any case, in their 40 H2H games, Moses held a staggering 25-12-3 margin in their scoring battles. Not only that, but in their 7 playoff games, Moses enjoyed a solid 5-2 edge. And, Moses held a whopping 11-6 margin in 30+ point games against Kareem.

Kareem's two highest games against Moses were 34 and 36. Meanwhile, Moses had games of 34, 34, 35, 36, 37, 37, 38, and 39 against Kareem. And in their post-season H2H's, Moses held a 2-1 edge in 30+ point games (Kareem's high was 32, while Moses had games of 33, and even 38 in their playoff battles.)

Rebounding? As expected, Moses just CRUSHED Kareem on the glass. In the known 16 games in which I could find their rebounding totals, Moses went an unbelieveable 16-0 against Kareem. And some were by HUGE margins. For instance, in the '83 Finals, Moses not only outrebounded Kareem, 4-0, he held a MASSIVE 18-8 rpg differential.

Not only that, but given the fact that Moses was a better rebounder in EVERY season in their 13 years in the league together, there was a very good chance that Moses won the VAST MAJORITY of their rebounding H2H's. I wouldn't be surprised if the overall margin was something like a 35-5 edge (or maybe even higher.)

Kareem did SLIGHTLY outshoot Moses from the floor in those 16 H2H games, but it was very close, and overall, Kareem shot .523 in those 16 games (again, from the 82-83 season thru the 88-89 season.) Moses shot .472 overall in those last 16 H2H games.

All of which is interesting. For instance, in Kareem's 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, against Moses, he averaged 22 ppg on .513 shooting from the field against Moses in their four H2H's. Against a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem, in those two seasons, and covering 10 H2H games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on a mind-boggling .630 shooting. Meanwhile, Moses averaged 23 ppg on .484 shooting against Kareem, all while outrebounding him by an average differential of 12-5 rpg.

So, for those that question Moses's defense, they had better take a closer look. He was clearly a FORCE against Kareem. Once again, Moses' dodged Kareem's truly dominant seasons ('71-73), but even a young Moses was a near match for a near prime Kareem. And a PRIME Moses just ABUSED an older Kareem (even in a Kareem MVP season in 79-80.)
Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Here are the 40 H2H's between Kareem and Moses...

76-77

1.

M 4
K 18 W

2.

M 17 W
K 28

3.

M 19
K 29 W

4.

M 26 W
K 23


77-78

1.

M 20 W (dominated glass)
K 32

2.

M 21
K 19 W

3.

M 29
K 22 W


78-79

1.

M 32
K 28 W

2.

M 34 W
K 34


79-80

1.

M 32
K 24 W

2.

M 29
K 15 W


80-81

1.

M 26
K 10 W

2.

M 17 W
K 18

3.

M 28
K 22 W

4.

M 29
K 30 W

5.

M 34 W
K 36

Playoffs

1.

M 38 W
K 21

2.

M 33
K 27 W

3.

M 23 W
K 32



81-82

1.

M 36 W
K 33

2.

M 37
K 21 W

3.

M 23
K 23 W

4.

M 39
K 12 W

5.

M 37
K 20 W


82-83

1.

M 12-22 5-8 14 29 W
K 7-11 1-2 2 15

2.

Kareem did not play

Finals

1.

M 9-20 9-12 18 27 W
K 8-15 4-6 4 20

2.

M 8-10 8-13 12 24 W
K 11-17 1-2 4 23

3.

M 10-19 8-13 19 28 W
K 8-20 7-8 15 23

4.

M 9-22 6-9 23 24 W
K 10-15 8-10 7 28


83-84

1.

M 6-13 5-8 11 18
K 5-15 2-4 5 12 W

2.

M 8-17 6-9 11 22 W
K 14-21 1-1 6 29


84-85

1.

M 12-21 11-16 13 35 W
K 12-23 0-2 6 24

2.

M 5-13 6-7 14 16
K 9-19 5-7 9 23 W


85-86

1.

M 4-11 6-8 9 14
K 6-12 1-1 4 13 W

2.

M 9-21 9-14 12 27
K 12-22 4-5 5 28 W


86-87

1.

M 7-15 7-8 10 21
K 6-13 3-5 6 15 W

2.

M 10-22 7-10 15 27 W
K 6-13 5-6 6 17


87-88

1.

M 10-19 6-11 9 26 W
K 12-22 1-2 6 25

2.

Kareem did not play


88-89

1.

M 5-12 6-9 16 16
K 7-13 2-2 4 16 W

2.

M 4-14 6-8 11 14 W
K 2-7 0-0 6 4

[EllEffEll]

Early 80's Moses was very physical where Kareem's game was more finesse. When the refs let them play, Moses would really frustrate Kareem. Had the 76ers had Moses in 81-82 (instead of the following year), the Finals may have had a different outcome.

[heyhey]

I feel like most of the criticisms you laid against Kareem can be levied against wilt when comparing him and Russell

[jlauber]

I feel like most of the criticisms you laid against Kareem can be levied against wilt when comparing him and Russell

Give me some examples. If you are referring to Kareem outscoring Wilt (and really only in '72 and '73), Kareem was playing with great surrounding talent from '71 thru '73. Not only Oscar, but players like Dandridge, Lucius Allen, and Jon McGlocklin (who was perhaps the greatest long-range shooter of his era...along with Jerry Lucas.) Those Buck teams went 66-16, 63-19, 60-22 (and then 59-23 in '74 after Wilt had retired.)

Meanwhile, when Chamberlain was pouring in 30-40+ point games against Russell, he was also outrebounding and outshooting him (something that Kareem SELDOM did against Wilt), and in many, by MASSIVE margins. AND, Wilt was narrowly losing close series, year-after-year against Russell, and with PATHETIC rosters (as well as being outgunned by HUGE margins in terms of HOFers.)

[jlauber]

IMHO, Kareem was very fortunate that he never had to face a PRIME Wilt. Take a look at the destruction that Wilt wrought on many of the same centers that Kareem would face later on. Kareem never even came within the Grand Canyon of the games that a PRIME Wilt shelled players like Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy with. And Wilt was also FAR more dominant against players like DierKng, Fox, and Imhoff, whom a prime Kareem would face later on, as well.

[jlauber]

I honestly believe a PRIME Moses (from '79 thru '85) has to rank near a PRIME Wilt and a PRIME Shaq in terms of domination of his peers. Not even a PRIME Kareem was that dominant.

[jlauber]

I was just looking at the Kareem-Gilmore H2H's (and there many)...

IMHO, almost a stalemate. Granted, in their one playoff series H2H, Kareem's Lakers just shelled Gilmore's Spurs (it was a bloodbath), but it was nearly even in their statistical battle (BTW, in one of those games, the two COMBINED for ONE rebound.)

The rest of their many games were very close. Also interesting was that in the relatively quick research I did, (and I MAY have missed a couple of their H2H's), I found Kareem's high game against Gilmore was 31 points (and that was the only 30+ game I could find), ...and Gilmore's high, against Kareem, was also a 31 point game.

Overall, it appears that Kareem may have slightly outscored Gilmore, and that Gilmore probably outshot Kareem by a solid margin. I didn't spend a lot of time, so the rebounding numbers will also be interesting.

To be continued...

[jlauber]

It is interesting that Moses could take crappy rosters as far as the Finals (in '81 he single-handedly carried a 40-42 cast of clowns to the Finals), and then with a very good roster, to as dominating a season as any in NBA history (in 82-83, his Sixers went 65-17, and then 12-1 in the post-season.) But, in 84-85 and 85-86, with the ADDITION of Barkley, they couldn't even make it to the Finals. Of course, after 84-85, Moses declined each year, and Dr. J was really on the decline, but still, hard to believe those loaded rosters couldn't win a title.

[Gotterdammerung]

It is interesting that Moses could take crappy rosters as far as the Finals (in '81 he single-handedly carried a 40-42 cast of clowns to the Finals), and then with a very good roster, to as dominating a season as any in NBA history (in 82-83, his Sixers went 65-17, and then 12-1 in the post-season.) But, in 84-85 and 85-86, with the ADDITION of Barkley, they couldn't even make it to the Finals. Of course, after 84-85, Moses declined each year, and Dr. J was really on the decline, but still, hard to believe those loaded rosters couldn't win a title.

The reason why the 83 Sixers didn't repeat was due to their numerous flaws:

Toney was the lone sharpshooter.
Starting powerforward Iavaroni was just a journeyman.
The bench was thin after Bobby Jones (Edwards, Johnson, Reggie Johnson, Schoene, Cureton & McNamara).
That explains the Sixers' burnout and failure to reach the finals again.:no:

That explains their stunning gag-job in 84 vs the Nets in the playoffs.

in '85 they got Barkley and made it back to the East Finals, but lost to Celtics in 5. Wasn't close.

[jlauber]

The reason why the 83 Sixers didn't repeat was due to their numerous flaws:

Toney was the lone sharpshooter.
Starting powerforward Iavaroni was just a journeyman.
The bench was thin after Bobby Jones (Edwards, Johnson, Reggie Johnson, Schoene, Cureton & McNamara).
That explains the Sixers' burnout and failure to reach the finals again.:no:

Maybe so, but the 84-85 Sixers had Cheeks, Toney, Erving, Threatt, Barkley, Jones, and Moses. And, while Toney was injured in the 85-86 season (and was never the same again), the rest of that roster returned. Barkley was a force in 85-86, but as I said earlier, both Moses and Dr. J started to decline.

[jlauber]

Back to the OP, clearly Moses could overpower a Kareem from the '78 season on, but I wonder if he could have contained the athletically gifted Kareem in the early 70's, and when he was at his absolute peak. I'm sure he could have muscled him, and probably scored 30 a game on him, but I wonder what kind of scoring games THAT Kareem would have been capable of against even a PRIME Moses?

[Gotterdammerung]

Maybe so, but the 84-85 Sixers had Cheeks, Toney, Erving, Threatt, Barkley, Jones, and Moses. And, while Toney was injured in the 85-86 season (and was never the same again), the rest of that roster returned. Barkley was a force in 85-86, but as I said earlier, both Moses and Dr. J started to decline.
I suspect the 85 East Finals was about as far as you could go with that roster. Plus Boston upgraded after the 83 season with Dennis Johnson, neutralizing the Boston Strangler.

After all, Larry Bird was the best player in the league in those years, from 84 to 86. You weren't beating him with anything less than a championship caliber squad during those years.

What do you know, your 8888th post! And me 1 away from my own 888th! :eek:

[EllEffEll]

The 82-83 76ers squad doesn't get as much kudos as they should. Likely because the Lakers, Celtics and (later the) Pistons slurped up most of it back in the day. They were an absolute juggernaut that year.

I don't have any numbers to toss around. I just saw them play in person and am going strictly from memory (which ain't always perfect).

And Moses should get more respect among the all-time greats. He's rarely even mentioned.

[jlauber]

The 82-83 76ers squad doesn't get as much kudos as they should. Likely because the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons slurped up most of it back in the day. They were an absolute juggernaut that year.

I don't have any numbers to toss around. I just saw them play in person and am going strictly from memory (which ain't always perfect).

And Moses should get more respect among the all-time greats. He's rarely even mentioned.

That was the main reason for this post. Some here have claimed that all he could do was rebound. The man was a SCORER, too. He was OUTSCORING the mighty Kareem, and by considerable margins. And, how many other centers have ever had a 31.1 ppg season (and while LEADING the league in rebounding?)

And, here again, his defense was under-rated, too. Kareem only had SIX 30+ point games against him, in their 40 H2H's. Granted, the two may not always have defended each other, but in any case, Kareem seldom was able to take over a game at the offensive end, and in their known 16 H2H games, Kareem only shot .523 against him (Kareem shot .559 in his career, and in his 23 H2H's with Hakeem, a 37-41 yearold Kareem shot a staggering .610, while averaging 23 ppg against Hakeem.)

Hard to believe, but a 6-10 PRIME Moses just OVERPOWERED the NBA. Once again, and IMHO, a PRIME Moses was only matched by a PRIME Shaq and a PRIME Wilt, in dominating his peers. The more I look at his career, the more inclined I am in moving him ahead of Hakeem and into my #10 spot all-time. He won THREE MVPs. (and even in the years that he did not, like 79-80, he was still the best player in the league.) And, despite only winning one ring, he took one horrible roster to the Finals, and made most of his 80's teams solid contenders.

[DMAVS41]

The 82-83 76ers squad doesn't get as much kudos as they should. Likely because the Lakers, Celtics and (later the) Pistons slurped up most of it back in the day. They were an absolute juggernaut that year.

I don't have any numbers to toss around. I just saw them play in person and am going strictly from memory (which ain't always perfect).

And Moses should get more respect among the all-time greats. He's rarely even mentioned.


I find Moses sometimes hard to rank. I've never seen a list with him outside the top 15 though. Normally he's top 13.

Seems about right to me.

[jlauber]

[/B]

I find Moses sometimes hard to rank. I've never seen a list with him outside the top 15 though. Normally he's top 13.

Seems about right to me.

Well, I really believe that his PRIME, from '79 thru '85, was only matched by a PRIME Chamberlain ('62 thru '68), and a PRIME Shaq ('98 to '05.) Not even Kareem's peak seasons, and against his peers, were as dominant as those three guys were against their's.

[HighFlyer23]

both were leagues above wilt

/thread

[jlauber]

both were leagues above wilt

/thread

Prove it!

Give me SOMETHING...

Any idiot can jump into a topic and make a baseless claim...

[Odinn]

I can agree with Moses being underrated. I'm sorry but sometimes you can be very disturbing. Your thread title "Kareem vs. Moses" and you made this thread to applaud Wilt...:wtf: :facepalm

[mrpibb]

I can agree with Moses being underrated. I'm sorry but sometimes you can be very disturbing. Your thread title "Kareem vs. Moses" and you made this thread to applaud Wilt...:wtf: :facepalm

No, he didn't. Other people made him talk about Wilt.

[mosesmalone]

http://i1.hoopchina.com.cn/u/1106/13/709/100709/8bb4cb04.gif

http://i1.hoopchina.com.cn/user/709/100709/12758944468e041.gif
Moses game winner over LAL in 1980.10.30.

Moses can't stop the skyhook.
Kareem can't stop Moses tough offense underneath.
Maybe Kareem is a good rebounder in his prime(before 1981),but he didn't show the desire on rebounding in 80s.
Kareem's pass >>> Moses'

[All Net]

Great read jlauber...

[sundizz]

Jlauber you really need to get some sort of job with the NBA. As annoying as you are your passion is unbelievable. I :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: you for being someone that is as passionate about the game as I am. You seem to watch, to have opinions, and to take incredible pains to back up those efforts. A basketball profiler if you will. I think my heaven would be having the top 100 players in a league together and being able to watch a regular season and playoffs comprised of them.

I have to say, I've heard of Moses and always known he was really good and underrated. Your post has opened my eyes to how underrated he really was. Good info to know. Will use it to my advantage is arguments with friends.

A lot of these players from back in the day seen very hard to rank. He averaged about 16 and 9 in 1991 in his 20th season. I always feel that the numbers of players back in those days were greatly inflated by a lack of superior talent. However, some of these players really seem to transcend era's. If Kevin Love can get damn near 14 rpg a game, I won't say a beastly buff Moses couldn't get that much in today's league.

[jlauber]

Jlauber you really need to get some sort of job with the NBA. As annoying as you are your passion is unbelievable. I :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: you for being someone that is as passionate about the game as I am. You seem to watch, to have opinions, and to take incredible pains to back up those efforts. A basketball profiler if you will. I think my heaven would be having the top 100 players in a league together and being able to watch a regular season and playoffs comprised of them.

I have to say, I've heard of Moses and always known he was really good and underrated. Your post has opened my eyes to how underrated he really was. Good info to know. Will use it to my advantage is arguments with friends.

A lot of these players from back in the day seen very hard to rank. He averaged about 16 and 9 in 1991 in his 20th season. I always feel that the numbers of players back in those days were greatly inflated by a lack of superior talent. However, some of these players really seem to transcend era's. If Kevin Love can get damn near 14 rpg a game, I won't say a beastly buff Moses couldn't get that much in today's league.

I appreciate the kind words. Thanks.

As for Moses, there are probably not many here who know that, considering he was a bruiser, that he was damn good FT shooter, too. He had three full seasons of over .800 shooting (.815, .824, and .831.) And, how about FOUR post-seasons (granted, they were only 3, 3, 5, and 5 games), in which he shot,...get this... .929, .933, .952, and even .969 (31-32)!

The more you look at his career, the more "top-10" it becomes...

[jlauber]

Moses...the most under-rated all-time great...

And for those that have Kareem as their GOAT...please read this topic.

[Xiao Yao You]

I preferred Moses but the Kareem I saw was mostly just sky hooks. I loved watching Moses relentlessly work the offensive putbacks one after another.

[Pointguard]

I notice that the people who say Kareem was best in 76 or 77 they say that Kareem knew how to use his body better and establish position better. I used to think they said that to imply that Wilt wouldn't have pushed him around. But here's Moses who is never mentioned as being among the strongest (at least not like you hear about Gilmore, Wilt, Reed or Thurmond's strength) and he's compensating for a lot of height with with work, muscle and tenacity - which is like describing Thurmond who was much more dedicated to defense than MM was. Kareem would have trouble with active centers I think in any part of his career. At least in '71 and '72 he was very active himself.

Once Wilt is gone and Thurmond fades Kareem had that Dwight Howard stage: The dearth of centers made him seem greater but when you see a rare good center next to him he isn't as impressive. Cowens and Moses could out-work him tho - and both could and would out play him from time to time. In the time period you mention Moses just went at the boards harder and didn't let up. A definite case of hard work and tenacity overcoming talent.

[jlauber]

I notice that the people who say Kareem was best in 76 or 77 they say that Kareem knew how to use his body better and establish position better. I used to think they said that to imply that Wilt wouldn't have pushed him around. But here's Moses who is never mentioned as being among the strongest (at least not like you hear about Gilmore, Wilt, Reed or Thurmond's strength) and he's compensating for a lot of height with with work, muscle and tenacity - which is like describing Thurmond who was much more dedicated to defense than MM was. Kareem would have trouble with active centers I think in any part of his career. At least in '71 and '72 he was very active himself.

Once Wilt is gone and Thurmond fades Kareem had that Dwight Howard stage: The dearth of centers made him seem greater but when you see a rare good center next to him he isn't as impressive. Cowens and Moses could out-work him tho - and both could and would out play him from time to time. In the time period you mention Moses just went at the boards harder and didn't let up. A definite case of hard work and tenacity overcoming talent.

Excellent post...as always. IMHO, the "greats" usually hit the ground running. In many cases, their best statistical seasons come early in their careers. MJ had his highest scoring season in his third year, and by his 4th, he had his most productive. Chamberlain obviously was a monster from year one, and by his third season, he set records that will never be approached. In Shaq's second season, he averaged 29.3 ppg on .599 shooting, with 13.2 rpg. All of those numbers were nearly his career bests, and in actuality, were probably better than his MVP season in 2000.

I read how Hakeem was nowhere near his peak in the year's in which Kareem just murdered him ('85 and '86), and yet, in his '86 season, he averaged 23.5 ppg, shot .526 from the floor, and grabbed 11.5 rpg, all in 36.3 mpg. Some here claim his peak came in '94, his only MVP season, and yet, he averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg, and it came in a career high 41 mpg. Given the mpg, his numbers were no more dominant.

Even players like Magic, who would become a better pure shooter as the years went by, still had incredible season early on. In his third year, he nearly averaged a triple double, and did so by being a part-time PG. He also won FMVP in his first and third seasons. And his greatest game came in game six of the NBA Finals in his ROOKIE season.

And I have long maintained that Kareem's PEAK came in his second and third years in the league. And the numbers don't lie, either. In fact, and again using mpg, Kareem's best season was probably his second year. In his second season, in 70-71, he played 40.1 mpg, averaged 31.7 ppg, grabbed 16.0 rpg, handed out 3.3 apg (he was at 4.1 in his rookie season BTW), and shot .577 from the field. (BTW, that .577 came in a league that shot .449...which gave him a differential of .128, which was the highest of his career.) In his '72 season, which many regard as his greatest statistical season, he played a career high 44.2 mpg, scored 34.8 ppg, yanked 16.6 rpg, handed out 4.6 apg, and shot .574. All of the numbers were nearly identical to his previous season.

Yes, he became bigger, in terms of weight, and he developed more range, BUT, he LOST athleticism and quickness. Not only that, but he also lost his "edge' as well. He came into the league as the most heralded player since Wilt hit the NBA 10 years earlier. And, by his second season, he was easily leading the league in scoring, and winning an MVP AND a FMVP. However, I really think an OLD Wilt's outplaying him in both the '71 and '72 WCF's, as well as Thurmond reducing him to just pathetic FG%'s in three straight playoff series, and then finally, in the '74 Finals, when a 6-9 Dave Cowens just dominated him in the seventh game, (and in a blowout win on Kareem's home floor), just shocked him.

When Kareem won the scoring title, the NBA title, the MVP, and the FMVP, all in his second season, he was being UNIVERSALLY predicted to win scoring titles, MVP's, titles, and FMVP's in EVERY season for years to come. And while he did win MVP's in the decade of the 70's, the rest of those predictions never materialized. After Oscar retired, he languished on two losing teams in the middle of the decade, and even when he was surrounded with a wealth of talent, as he was in the '77, '78, and '79 seasons, his team's fell FAR short. Much of it was not his fault, BUT, he rarely stepped up either. Many year point out his 76-77 post-season as some kind of example. The reality was, yes, he dominated a 46-36 Warrior team in the first round, and in a seven game series (and this from a Laker team that went 53-29.) BUT, aside from ONE big game against Walton in the WCF's, the rest of that four game series was a wash between the two...EXCEPT, it was WALTON who was making the big plays late, or dominating in the 4th quarters.

I have doumented Kareem's MANY post-season flop jobs before...whether they be in single games (usually the biggest games, or game seven's); series; or even complete post-seasons. Just a quick recap...in his rookie season, he had a solid ECF's against Reed in the that series, BUT, in the clinching game five loss, Reed pummeled him with a 32 point game, in a 132-96 rout of Kareem's Bucks.

In his second season, EVERYTHING went Kareem's way. His TEAM, with newly acquired Oscar, went 66-16, and then romped to a title with a 12-2 post-season (which included a sweep of the Bullets in the Finals.) Once again...a scoring title, an MVP, a world championship, and a FMVP. BUT, much of it was smoke-and-mirrors, too. Chamberlain, who was clearly a better player the year before, and it showed in their one H2H game, BUT, he blew out his knee. So, he was nowhere near 100% in the '71 season (nor would he ever be the complete offensive force that he had been before that injury.) Not only that, but the Lakers lost Baylor in the third game of the '71 season (and he, too, was never the same.) THEN, West went down in the last fourth of the season, and missed the playoffs.

So, when the playoffs arrived, Kareem's Bucks blew thru a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, in the WCF's, with a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, statistically matched Kareem in every offensive category in that series, BUT, without BOTH Baylor and West (and then losing Erickson early in that series), the Bucks easily beat LA, 4-1. On top of that, the 42-40 Bullets shocked the Knicks, 4-3, in the ECF's. So, the Bucks beat a barely .500 team in the Finals.

After that season, virtually EVERYONE was predicting a long dynasty for Milwaukee. Aside from Oscar, they were a young team, and the stronger teams in the NBA, like LA and NY, were aging.

HOWEVER, in the '72 season, the Lakers dumped Baylor, inserted McMillian into their starting lineup, and proceeded to run off 33 wins in a row. They POUNDED the league, too, with Wilt and Hairston owning the glass. They shredded the Bucks in their five regular season games, going 4-1 (and if Wilt didn't run into foul problems in that one loss, it probably would have been 5-0.) The Bucks still went 63-19, BUT, they were looking UP at the 69-13 Lakers.

In the '72 playoffs, the 51-31 Warriors went down against Kareem's Bucks, BUT, Thurmond OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT Kareem in that series (and Kareem, who had averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, only averaged 22.8 ppg on a horrific .405 shooting against Nate.) Then, as well know by now, after a game one loss, in which LA didn't do anything right, the Lakers waltzed past the Bucks, winning 4 of the next 5 games, including a 25 point win in game five, and a stunning comeback win in game six in Milwaukee. And, virtually EVERYONE who watched and covered that series, acclaimed that Wilt had outplayed Kareem in that series. Furthermore, in the last four games of that series, Wilt held Kareem to .414 shooting. It was an absolute shocking season for the Bucks, who were expected to run off a long run of titles.

Continued...

[jlauber]

From that HUGE letdown of the '72 season, the rest of the decade went into a spinning downward spiral.

In his '73 season, Kareem took his 60-22 Bucks down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against the 47-35 Warriors. In that series, Kareem once again was held WAY below his scoring and shooting numbers by Thurmond. In the regular season, Kareem had averaged 30.0 ppg on .554 shooting. In that series against Nate... 22.8 ppg on a horrid .428 from the floor. BTW, Chamberlain just murdered Nate in the next round, taking HIS 60-22 Lakers to an easy 4-1 romp over Nate's Warriors (and in that series, Wilt outrebounded Nate, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg, and outshot Nate, .550 to .398.)

Wilt retired after that 72-73 season, and the expectations were, with Wilt gone, that Kareem would be unchallenged the rest of the decade. He did get his 59-23 Bucks to the Finals in that '74 season, BUT, in game seven, and on his home floor, the 6-9 Cowens outplayed him in every facet of the game, and the result was a blowout home loss for Kareem and his Bucks.

Oscar retired after that season, and the result...the Bucks went from a 59-23 championship team, down to a 38-44 non-playoff team. True, Kareem broke his hand, and missed 16 games, but even in the games he did play, they only went 35-31.

The Bucks could see that the sulking Kareem was no longer happy in Milwaukee, and they shipped him off the next season. I have long maintained that, IF Kareem could have challenged any of Wilt's records, THAT was the perfect situation for him. He came to a 30-52 Lakers team that desperately needed him to take over offensively. I get a kick out of those that have labeled Wilt a "stats-padder" in some of his seasons, but how about Kareem? In Kareem's greatest statistical season, 71-72, he played a career high 44.2 mpg, on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential.

So, here was Kareem, playing with a below average roster in 75-76, and a team that needed him to step up big-time. YET, in that season, he could only play 41.2 mpg. And unlike 71-72, when he averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, he suddenly declined to 27.7 ppg on only .529 shooting in '76. The result...his Lakers went 40-42, and missed the playoffs.

The Lakers retooled in the following season, 76-77, and as a result, they had the best record in the league, going 53-29. And, as previously noted, this would be Kareem's finest statistical post-season. He was brilliant in the first round of the playoffs, but, still, it took his Lakers seven games to knock off the 46-36 Warriors. In the WCF's, Kareem had ONE huge game against Walton, but the rest of that matchup was a stand-off...except, Walton was the more clutch player. And, the result was a shocking 4-0 sweep by the 49-33 Blazers.

LA acquired Adrian Dantley early in the 77-78 season, (and BTW, he was averaging 26.5 ppg when the got him) to go along with players like Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, and Jamaal Wilkes. Wilkes was particular interesting. He and Rick Barry, and a bunch of no-names, won a title with a 48-34 team in the '75 season.

So, the Lakers were probably the most STACKED team in the league in BOTH '78 and '79. And yet, they only went 45-37 and then 47-35, and were blown out in the first round of the playoffs in '78, and in the second round, 4-1, in '79, by Sonics teams that went 47-35 and 50-32, and that only had ONE borderline HOF player. In fact, in the clinching loss in the first round of the '78 playoffs, Marvin "the Human Eraser" outplayed Kareem.

Interesting too, that, after Wilt retired following the '73 season, that the NBA had the weakest NBA champions of any decade in it's history. The 48-34 Warriors won it '75; the 56-26 Celts in '76; the 49-33 Blazers in '77; the 44-38 Bullets in '78; and the 50-32 Sonics in '79. And STILL, from the '75 season on, Kareem could only get to the conference Finals, ONE time (and his team was SWEPT), and never came close to tasting the Finals in that time frame.

Overall, in the decade of the 70's, Kareem went to two Finals, and won ONE ring (in arguably the easiest run to a title in NBA history.) He played on teams that went 63-19, 60-22, 59-23 that did not win a title (and only ONE of those even made it to the Finals.) He also played on a 56-26 team that was routed in the ECF's, and another, a 53-29 team, which had the best record in the league, that was SWEPT in the WCF's, by a 49-33 team.

Continued...

[TheBigVeto]

Moses was a great center, one of the best in the business.
But Kareem >> Moses

[momo]

As a lake fan I can say Moses is one of the few opposing players I feared seeing. He was the perfect contrast and counterpoint to kaj. They were great to watch squaring off and they had to continually adjust to each other & re adjust.

[jlauber]

For those that somehow defend 22-23 year old Hakeem when a 38-39 year old year Kareem just torched him to the tune of 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting in ten straight games...

How about a 22 year old Moses nearly battling a a 29 year old Kareem to a draw in the four H2H's? Or a 23 year old Moses slightly outplaying a 30 year old Kareem? Or, a 24 year old Moses POUNDING a 31 year old Kareem, who would win the MVP in '80?

And from that point on, thru the rest of their career H2H's, Moses just OWNED Kareem. You can read the numbers at the beginning of this topic, but in any case, from the 79-80 season thru their last games in '89, Moses was the better player. And, from '80 thru '85, he was a MUCH better player.

Now, back to the "flop jobs" of Kareem...

Once again, in the decade of the 70's, and at his absolute peak, Kareem went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring (and again, with the easiest road to a title in NBA history.) That was IT. And he played with LOADED rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, too.

Of course, MAGIC's arrival was an IMMEDIATE title. While the '78 and '79 Lakers were wiped out by the Sonics, Magic torched them in '80, and then led the 60-22 Lakers into the Finals. Granted, Kareem had a monster series in the first five games of the '80 Finals, BUT, he sprained his ankle in game five, and missed game six. So what happened next? Magic completely dominated the game, with a 42-15-7 game (on 14-23 shooting from the field, and 14-14 from the line), and the result was the first of FIVE titles in the decade of the 80's.

However, Magic was injured early on in the 80-81 season, and while he came back, he was somewhat rusty, and it showed. He was awful in that first round, best-of-three series. STILL, it was MOSES, single handedly carrying his 40-42 Rockets past Kareem in that first round. He crushed Kareem in the first two games, including a 38 point beatdown in game one. And, for those question Moses' defense, he held Kareem to a .462 FG% in that series.

Magic became LA's best player from that season, on. He would go on to outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting from the '82 season thru Kareem's last season in 88-89. And, in the '82 Finals, it was Magic who dominated and went on to win the FMVP.

In the '83 Finals, Moses just DESTROYED Kareem, outscoring him, and POUNDING him on the glass by an 18-8 margin. The result...a 4-0 sweep by Moses' 76ers.

Magic took way too much of the blame for the Lakers meltdown in the '84 Finals. True, if he had hit his foul shots in game three, the Lakers would have won that series easily (and if Worthy hadn't thrown the ball away late in game two, it would have been a sweep), BUT, he still hung an 18-8-14 .560 series. Meanwhile, Kareem couldn't hit the Pacific Ocean from a lifeboat in game five, shooting 7-25. And overall, Kareem shot .481 in that Finals...a seven game series loss. Just another of MANY in which he didn't even shoot the league average in the post-season.

Kareem finally had a great Finals in the 84-85 season (albeit after a horrible performance in game one.) It may have been his finest Finals of his career. Still, it was Magic engineering that Laker offense, which averaged 126 ppg in that post-season, en route to a title.

I have documented Kareem's 85-86 season many times here. In his five regular season H2H's against Hakeem, he averaged 33 ppg on a mind-boggling .634 FG%. However, in the WCF's, the Rockets switched Sampson to the defensive assignment on Kareem (and with help from Hakeem.) The 39 year old Kareem still played reasonably well (although he couldn't grab a rebound for his life) averaging 27 ppg on .496 shooting (which included games of 33 and 31 points), BUT, it was a severe decline from his 33 ppg .634 shooting in the regular season. And, it was one of the main reasons why the 62-20 Lakers were stunned by the 51-31 Rockets, 4-1.

Kareem's role was dramatically reduced following that '86 season. He was no longer even LA's second best player (Worthy stepped up to that slot), and while he was a contributor to a title in that 86-87 season, LA was so loaded that they likely would have won a title whether he was there or not.

And, in the next season, Kareem had an AWFUL post-season, and an even WORSE Finals. The Lakers won a title DESPITE his putrid play. Kareem averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414 in the Finals, but thanks to Magic and Worthy, the Lakers escaped with a 4-3 series win.

In Kareem's LAST season, he was just a role player. And when Magic (and Scott) went down with injuries, the Lakers were again SWEPT.

That was Kareem's career in a nutshell. Hell, he retired, and the Lakers immediately IMPROVED. They went from a 57-25 team in his last season, to a 63-19 team the very next year. And Magic then led that injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record in HIS last season, and yet another trip to the Finals.

Of course, when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted back to the pre-Magic days, going 43-39, and then 39-43 in the two years after he retired.

Just some food for thought on Kareem's "GOAT" status...

[jlauber]

Moses was a great center, one of the best in the business.
But Kareem >> Moses

No doubt, Kareem's CAREER was greater than Moses'. And, while Moses pretty much DOMINATED him in their 40 H2H games, I still say that Kareem's REAL prime, was early in his career, from '71 thru '72 and perhaps even into '73. THAT was an athletic, quick, high-flying Kareem.

I think it would have been an interesting matchup, with a '79 thru '83 Moses, against a '71 thur '73 Kareem. No doubt Kareem would have scored considerably more, and would have given Moses a much tougher battle on the glass. But, Kareem was certainly no match for Moses later on, and in their known 16 games in which we have their rebounding H2H's, Moses went 16-0 against Kareem. And I maintain, that since Moses outrebounded Kareem in EVERY season in which the two played, all 13 of them, that he would have held a minimum of a 35-5 edge in those games. And that is a conservative estimate. It may very well have been 40-0.

[HighFlyer23]

Most of the threads you make, such as this one, are with the intent to propel Wilt to some ridiculous level that he was never at

Kareem is the most accomplished basketball player in history, a candidate for GOAT on both the collegiate and professional levels

And he shot better than Moses who averaged a pitiful .430 FG% against Kareem from '86 onward. Kareem went 4-3 against Moses in those 7 games as well despite being ANCIENT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=malonmo01

In the '83 Finals a 36 year old Kareem did fine against Malone

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1983_finals.html

Go wank off to your f@ggot fairy tales of wilt

[jlauber]

Most of the threads you make, such as this one, are with the intent to propel Wilt to some ridiculous level that he was never at

Kareem is the most accomplished basketball player in history, a candidate for GOAT on both the collegiate and professional levels

And he shot better than Moses who averaged a pitiful .430 FG% against Kareem from '86 onward. Kareem went 4-3 against Moses in those 7 games as well despite being ANCIENT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=malonmo01

In the '83 Finals a 36 year old Kareem did fine against Malone

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1983_finals.html

Go wank off to your f@ggot fairy tales of wilt

Talk about "cherry picking." Of course, IF you had read my very first post in this topic, you would have read where I claimed that Moses's decline came faster than Kareem's. BUT, even from '86, in which I documented his decline, he STILL was routinely outscoring Kareem, and he STILL outrebounded Kareem in EVERY one of those games.

Now, please feel free to post their H2H's from the '79-80 season thru 84-85. I know you won't, but in my second post, you can CLEARLY see where Moses was not only outplaying Kareem in nearly every one of their H2H's, he was routinely wiping the floor with Kareem.

[Pointguard]

For those that somehow defend 22-23 year old Hakeem when a 38-39 year old year Kareem just torched him to the tune of 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting in ten straight games...

How about a 22 year old Moses nearly battling a a 29 year old Kareem to a draw in the four H2H's? Or a 23 year old Moses slightly outplaying a 30 year old Kareem? Or, a 24 year old Moses POUNDING a 31 year old Kareem, who would win the MVP in '80?

And from that point on, thru the rest of their career H2H's, Moses just OWNED Kareem. You can read the numbers at the beginning of this topic, but in any case, from the 79-80 season thru their last games in '89, Moses was the better player. And, from '80 thru '85, he was a MUCH better player.

Now, back to the "flop jobs" of Kareem...

Once again, in the decade of the 70's, and at his absolute peak, Kareem went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring (and again, with the easiest road to a title in NBA history.) That was IT. And he played with LOADED rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, too.

Of course, MAGIC's arrival was an IMMEDIATE title. While the '78 and '79 Lakers were wiped out by the Sonics, Magic torched them in '80, and then led the 60-22 Lakers into the Finals. Granted, Kareem had a monster series in the first five games of the '80 Finals, BUT, he sprained his ankle in game five, and missed game six. So what happened next? Magic completely dominated the game, with a 42-15-7 game (on 14-23 shooting from the field, and 14-14 from the line), and the result was the first of FIVE titles in the decade of the 80's.

However, Magic was injured early on in the 80-81 season, and while he came back, he was somewhat rusty, and it showed. He was awful in that first round, best-of-three series. STILL, it was MOSES, single handedly carrying his 40-42 Rockets past Kareem in that first round. He crushed Kareem in the first two games, including a 38 point beatdown in game one. And, for those question Moses' defense, he held Kareem to a .462 FG% in that series.

Magic became LA's best player from that season, on. He would go on to outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting from the '82 season thru Kareem's last season in 88-89. And, in the '82 Finals, it was Magic who dominated and went on to win the FMVP.

In the '83 Finals, Moses just DESTROYED Kareem, outscoring him, and POUNDING him on the glass by an 18-8 margin. The result...a 4-0 sweep by Moses' 76ers.

Magic took way too much of the blame for the Lakers meltdown in the '84 Finals. True, if he had hit his foul shots in game three, the Lakers would have won that series easily (and if Worthy hadn't thrown the ball away late in game two, it would have been a sweep), BUT, he still hung an 18-8-14 .560 series. Meanwhile, Kareem couldn't hit the Pacific Ocean from a lifeboat in game five, shooting 7-25. And overall, Kareem shot .481 in that Finals...a seven game series loss. Just another of MANY in which he didn't even shoot the league average in the post-season.

Kareem finally had a great Finals in the 84-85 season (albeit after a horrible performance in game one.) It may have been his finest Finals of his career. Still, it was Magic engineering that Laker offense, which averaged 126 ppg in that post-season, en route to a title.

I have documented Kareem's 85-86 season many times here. In his five regular season H2H's against Hakeem, he averaged 33 ppg on a mind-boggling .634 FG%. However, in the WCF's, the Rockets switched Sampson to the defensive assignment on Kareem (and with help from Hakeem.) The 39 year old Kareem still played reasonably well (although he couldn't grab a rebound for his life) averaging 27 ppg on .496 shooting (which included games of 33 and 31 points), BUT, it was a severe decline from his 33 ppg .634 shooting in the regular season. And, it was one of the main reasons why the 62-20 Lakers were stunned by the 51-31 Rockets, 4-1.

Kareem's role was dramatically reduced following that '86 season. He was no longer even LA's second best player (Worthy stepped up to that slot), and while he was a contributor to a title in that 86-87 season, LA was so loaded that they likely would have won a title whether he was there or not.

And, in the next season, Kareem had an AWFUL post-season, and an even WORSE Finals. The Lakers won a title DESPITE his putrid play. Kareem averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414 in the Finals, but thanks to Magic and Worthy, the Lakers escaped with a 4-3 series win.

In Kareem's LAST season, he was just a role player. And when Magic (and Scott) went down with injuries, the Lakers were again SWEPT.

That was Kareem's career in a nutshell. Hell, he retired, and the Lakers immediately IMPROVED. They went from a 57-25 team in his last season, to a 63-19 team the very next year. And Magic then led that injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record in HIS last season, and yet another trip to the Finals.

Of course, when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted back to the pre-Magic days, going 43-39, and then 39-43 in the two years after he retired.

Just some food for thought on Kareem's "GOAT" status...
Great Posts, as always... at times... when you are rolling like this its like a video.

[jlauber]

Great Posts, as always... at times... when you are rolling like this its like a video.

Well, you basically covered it in your previous post on the topic. Kareem was immensely talented, as well as physically gifted. Yet, he just didn't have the drive that somewhat lessor players like Moses did. Moses was 6-10 for cryingoutloud, and early in his career he was around 230 lbs (he would eventually get to around 260.) And he was not a powerful man, nor a great leaper (in fact, I think he could barely dunk), yet, he just imposed his will on the NBA in his career, particularly from '79 thru '85.

Meanwhile, Kareem just seemed to accept his fate...at least until Magic arrived and re-energized his career. A motivated Kareem was capable of hanging 40+ on just about anyone (although he never approached that figure against either Moses or Thurmond.)

But, in many of his biggest moments, he had his biggest meltdowns. And I have always found it fascinating that Kareem was somehow considered more "clutch" than Wilt, and yet, in their two series clinching H2H games in the '71 and '72 WCF's, an OLD Wilt shot 18-33 (.545) against a PRIME Kareem, while that PRIME Kareem shot a horrible 23-60 (.383) against that OLD Wilt. And while you would be hard-pressed to find very many games in Wilt's entire post-season career, in which he was outplayed, or played poorly, particularly his BIGGEST games, there were quite a few BIG games in Kareem's post-season career in which he flopped. Even ENTIRE SERIES.

Kareem may very well have been the most talented and skilled seven-footer to have ever played the game, but there were many examples when he did not play to that talent level. Meanwhile, there has probably never been a player like Moses, who could DOMINATE, with nowhere near the height, weight, strength, or athleticism of MANY of the so-called "greats."

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kareem was still the best player in '81, imo, and definitely '80. I don't know why anyone would call Moses better than Kareem in '80 given the playoff run Kareem had(his best championship run and even better than the run Moses had in '83, imo) plus his well-deserved MVP award while leading the Lakers to 60 wins. Seriously, almost every game from Kareem's '80 run is available, and at least a half dozen regular season games. He was still an unbelievable player, with a devastating offensive arsenal(far more than just sky hooks), and underrated as far as his vertical and body control for a man 7'2"+. I've seen Abe post that gif occasionally from the Seattle series where a 33 year old Kareem's head is near rim level on a dunk. Kareem was also impressive defensively leading the league in blocks, and being a real presence at that end.

If Kareem lost anything by 1980 you could say it was rebounding as those numbers fell off a bit, but as I've mentioned several times, the Lakers improved their size and in particular the PF position in 1980 and of course, Magic being such a good rebounding guard helped the problem as well.

And look at the difference between how Kareem's teams fared on the boards from '77-'79

1977- Lakers were outrebounded by 2 rpg
1978- Lakers were outrebounded by 2.2 rpg
1979- Lakers were outrebounded by 3.3 rpg

As you can see, those Laker teams were horrible rebounding teams, now look at

1980- Lakers outrebounded opponents by 2.2 rpg
1981- Lakers were about even on the boards(4 more total rebounds than opponents for the season)

So Kareem's decline in rebounding numbers isn't really significant in '80 and '81 compared to '77-'79 considering he had a much better rebounding team.

By the way, when Magic was out in 1981, the Lakers went 28-17 and Kareem raised his scoring to 29 ppg for those 45 games without Magic, showing what I've maintained all along that Kareem could've scored significantly more had he wanted to, which is obvious to me just by watching him play, but also apparent from the 1980 playoff run(when he averaged 32) or the 1977 playoffs(when he averaged 35).

Kareem was still very much in his prime, or close to it, imo. I have very little doubt that the '77 version was a better player than the early 70's version. Especially since Kareem and teammates/opponents were saying that Kareem was at his best in '77. That means a lot more to me than numbers, particularly in a changing league.

When looking at numbers, consider this quote from the man himself in 1977 as well as the merger that year.


The first four or five years I was in the league, I was played basically one on one. There are 2 1/2 men on me all of the time now. One in back, one in front and a guard going for the ball. It's made it necessary for me to do other things."

The one thing I'd say he probably did better in Milwaukee was anchor the defense as Kareem's Lakers were often average defensively, while his Bucks were a dominant defensive team, and Kareem apparently didn't always get back on defense in the mid/late 70's and 80's, so I wouldn't argue that he was a better defensive player or more active defensively in the early 70's.

But I also don't like the simple view that "Kareem's teams underachieved and Magic came in and saved him". I believe that leaves out a lot of important information and as I showed, those late 70's Laker teams were horrible on the boards, and were playing Jamaal Wilkes at PF. They were also in desperate need of a defensive stopper and you can see that Gus Williams lit up the Lakers for 31 ppg in the 1979 playoffs. Michael Cooper got significant playing time the following season solving that problem.

To back up the fact that you're overrating his casts, the '78 Lakers went 8-12 without him(8-13 if you include a game Kareem left after a few minutes).

Regarding the '74 Bucks, Oscar was in his last season, and the Bucks were without Lucius Allen for the playoffs, Lucius had averaged 18/4/5/2 on 50% shooting for the season. Even so, the Bucks got to game 7 of the finals thanks to Kareem's game-winning sky hook in game 6 and Kareem had an amazing playoff run, and averaged just 1 less point than his 2nd and 3rd leading scorers combined for the entire playoffs.

As far as the '72 team. Well, by all accounts, Kareem didn't quite play up to his standards that run, but they lost to a team that had won 6 more games than him. The Lakers were a historic team and favored in the series as I proved to you in the past. And I'll also mention that Oscar was injured, and as long as you're going to bring up the '68 Sixers injuries, at least be consistent when Kareem has key teammates injured. I won't argue with '73, that was an upset with Kareem playing horribly(perhaps somewhat due to distractions requiring Kareem to travel with bodyguards), but either way, I don't want to come off as excusing every bad series he had. Just including more information. And I'll concede some criticism for his play in '72, not criticism for failing to beat the favored 69 win Lakers, but criticism for his actual level of play.

I just feel that you leave out a lot when it comes to Kareem, and are a Magic apologist. For example, you mention Magic being "rusty" as an excuse for the '81 playoffs. Well, Magic returned for the final 17 games of the '80-'81 season and averaged 21.8 ppg after his return compared to 21.4 before his injury.

And those numbers are brought down by Magic's first few games back when he actually was rusty. For example, Magic returned on February 27th and had 12 points in 24 minutes off the bench, and had 9 points in 33 minutes the following game. Magic returned to the starting lineup on March 3rd vs the Kings when he scored 13 points.

Magic finished the '81 season with games of 41 and 33 points, so these claims of him being "rusty" seem unsubstantiated to me. Kareem was the Lakers best player untril '83, imo, after that, it was a good debate between the 2 the next couple of seasons when they were very close. Obviously, Kareem was clearly better in '80 and '81, though I don't hear any arguments from you for those 2 seasons.

Back to the 1981 series, it's important to note that it was a best of 3 mini-series back then, which many hated because anything truly could happen, and we know how close that series was. That's actually the way that Magic's injury affected the Lakers '81 season more, imo, not that he was "rusty" for the series, but if he hadn't missed 45 games, they'd have probably had a better record and had a bye for the mini-series. And as long as you bring up Kareem being outrebounded by Moses as him being "pounded" in the '83 series, remember that in the '81 series, Kareem who was usually an inferior rebounder outrebounded Moses in the '81 series averaging an impressive 17 per game.

And in fairness, you did mention that they didn't always guard each other, but that can't be emphasized enough when looking at head to head match ups. Watch game 2 of the '81 series, Kareem is usually guarded by Billy Paultz and Moses is usually guarded by Jim Chones.

And why not look at 1982? One of Malone's best seasons, he was outplayed by Jack Sikma in the elimination games.

In game 1, Houston led by as many as 9 in the first half and Moses had 16 points at halftime, but Houston blew that lead and lost by 15 with Moses only scoring 4 points in the second half. Houston did respond in game 2 blowing out Seattle by 21 and Moses had 28 points and 23 rebounds. In game 3, Sikma outscored Moses 30-24 and Seattle blew out Houston by 21 to clinch the series. A headline for this game was "Sikma wins battle of the big men." Moses dropped from 31 ppg on 52% shooting during the season to 24 ppg on 43% shooting in the series.

And as long as you're going to mention Moses carrying a "pathetic" 40-42 team to the finals in '81, you should remember that their opponent in the Western Conference Finals was a 40-42 Kings team, so the achievement isn't as shocking as it sounds.

And I wouldn't call that team "pathetic" either, Calvin Murphy had 42 points in that classic game 7 vs the Spurs, thankfully a game that's available.

Not to take anything away from Moses, but he simply wasn't as good as Kareem or Hakeem. He was a better rebounder than either, but both players were better scorers, better defenders and vastly superior passers. I don't see it as particularly debatable. Malone's Rocket teams were consistently among the worst defensive teams in the league(sometimes the worst) and always below average, which is a huge disadvantage when compared to Olajuwon. Malone did join Sixer teams that were already elite defensively(and top contenders before he even got there).

The '84 Sixers really underachieved, they returned the incredibly talented team from '83 and ended up losing in the first round in an upset to the Nets. During that season, the Sixers owner accused Moses of being out of shape and not working as hard as usual. The '85 team also had an embarrassment of riches, though I will concede that losing to the Celtics is nothing to be ashamed of.

I won't argue with Moses being somewhere in the top 15, but top 10? No, don't see it....at all.

[Purch]

I miss the good posters... Shaqattack /fatal/jluabar

[bizil]

When u look at centers who COMBINED pure brute force inside and a well rounded scoring skillset, Moses was a top 2-3 center of all time! I would say Moses, Ewing, and Dream are the top 3 in that realm.

For starters, u won't find a more physical 6'10 center. Secondly, Moses had an AWESOME inside-outside scoring game. Centers like Shaq and Wilt set the standard for physical dominance at center. But Moses had a much better scoring skillset. Moses had a very effective short to medium midrange game. AND Moses took bigger or taller centers off the dribble too.

Peak wise, I think at one time Moses was the THIRD best center of all time. At one time, only Wilt and Kareem were better peak wise. Since then, I think the Dream and Shaq passed him by. I would EASILY take the peak of Moses over the peak of Bill Russell. GOAT wise, Moses was #4 at one point. In both realms, I think Dream and Shaq passed him by. But Big Moses is still a top 6 GOAT kind of center peak and GOAT wise.

[Pointguard]

I miss the good posters... Shaqattack /fatal/jluabar
This seemed about the time Shaqattack and Jluaber disappeared.

[dankok8]

We have all the full stats except blocked shots.

Kareem vs. Moses H2H

Regular Season (34 games)

Kareem: 22.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.4 apg, 3.0 bpg (24 games) on 54.5 %FG in 35.4 mpg
Moses: 25.3 ppg. 15.2 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.9 bpg (23 games) on 51.9 %FG in 40.6 mpg

Playoffs (7 games)

Kareem: 24.9 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.4 bpg on 50.8 %FG in 41.3 mpg
Moses: 28.1 ppg, 18.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.6 bpg (5 games) on 50.0 %FG in 42.7 mpg


When you realize all these match-ups were between a 22-34 year old Moses (in his prime/peak for basically all of that span) vs. a 30-42 year old Kareem (out of his prime for most of that span) you start thinking that how close the numbers are is a testament to Kareem's greatness not ammunition to tear down his legacy.

What would the numbers be like if it was 22-34 year old Kareem vs. a 30-42 year old Moses?

[Gotterdammerung]

This seemed about the time Shaqattack and Jluaber disappeared.
JLauber is still around, as LAZZERUS.

I wonder where are the other two, ShaqAttack3234 and Fatal9? Real GM boards? :confusedshrug:

[Odinn]

JLauber is still around, as LAZZERUS.

I wonder where are the other two, ShaqAttack3234 and Fatal9? Real GM boards? :confusedshrug:
ShaqAttack was posting RealGM a year ago. But I guess he doesn't have the time for all-time talks any more. He hasn't been so active. fpliii is active there tho and sometimes I visit the site for him.

Actually I tried RealGM myself, too. Basketball talk is better there but they have serious numbers of people that are obsessed with "advanced stats" and they can suggest that Moses is inferior player to Nowitzki just because those advanced stats say so. I used strong words about their approach and got the f out there. I like ISH better, at least I'm not considering quitting on ISH.

[La Frescobaldi]

ShaqAttack was posting RealGM a year ago. But I guess he doesn't have the time for all-time talks any more. He hasn't been so active. fpliii is active there tho and sometimes I visit the site for him.

Actually I tried RealGM myself, too. Basketball talk is better there but they have serious numbers of people that are obsessed with "advanced stats" and they can suggest that Moses is inferior player to Nowitzki just because those advanced stats say so. I used strong words about their approach and got the f out there. I like ISH better, at least I'm not considering quitting on ISH.

Good man.

Anyone that thinks Dirk Nowitski > Moses Malone needs to hear some strong words and then go sit in the corner. Because they are out in the weeds.

[1987_Lakers]

Kareem is obviously ranked higher all-time, but Moses Malone always seemed to outplayed Kareem during the early 80's.

It's funny, every time Moses went up against Robert Parish, Parish always seemed to outplay Malone, his defense always had Moses confused on the offensive end. While Kareem always seemed to destroy Parish in their H2H matchups.

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem is obviously ranked higher all-time, but Moses Malone always seemed to outplayed Kareem during the early 80's.

It's funny, every time Moses went up against Robert Parish, Parish always seemed to outplay Malone, his defense always had Moses confused on the offensive end. While Kareem always seemed to destroy Parish in their H2H matchups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=malonmo01&p2=parisro01

Not very many games in which Parish outplayed Moses.

I'll give him their '85 playoff series H2H (and Moses was on the decline by then), but before that, it was pretty much one-sided.

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=malonmo01&p2=parisro01

Not very many games in which Parish outplayed Moses.

I'll give him their '85 playoff series H2H (and Moses was on the decline by then), but before that, it was pretty much one-sided.

Alot of missing stats there.

Parish pretty much shut him down in the '81 Finals and outplayed him in the '85 playoffs. There is also a chunk of games in the mid 80's where Malone shot terrible against Boston. Out of all the Centers in the 80's you can say Parish contained Moses the best.

[Psileas]

Alot of missing stats there.

Parish pretty much shut him down in the '81 Finals and outplayed him in the '85 playoffs. There is also a chunk of games in the mid 80's where Malone shot terrible against Boston. Out of all the Centers in the 80's you can say Parish contained Moses the best.

Lots of missing stats with Kareem as well, at least in mainstream sites. For example, Kareem had a few games in the early 80's when he'd only play for few minutes (for his standards) which bring his stats vs Malone down.

[dankok8]

Lots of missing stats with Kareem as well, at least in mainstream sites. For example, Kareem had a few games in the early 80's when he'd only play for few minutes (for his standards) which bring his stats vs Malone down.

Yes Kareem had a few games where he didn't play the whole game because of injury/ejection. That does skew the numbers in favor of Moses.

We have complete data for Kareem vs. Moses though. All of their H2H's have points, rebounds, assists, and FG%. Even blocks for well over two thirds of the games.

[julizaver]

We have all the full stats except blocked shots.

Kareem vs. Moses H2H

Regular Season (34 games)

Kareem: 22.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.4 apg, 3.0 bpg (24 games) on 54.5 %FG in 35.4 mpg
Moses: 25.3 ppg. 15.2 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.9 bpg (23 games) on 51.9 %FG in 40.6 mpg

Playoffs (7 games)

Kareem: 24.9 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.4 bpg on 50.8 %FG in 41.3 mpg
Moses: 28.1 ppg, 18.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.6 bpg (5 games) on 50.0 %FG in 42.7 mpg


When you realize all these match-ups were between a 22-34 year old Moses (in his prime/peak for basically all of that span) vs. a 30-42 year old Kareem (out of his prime for most of that span) you start thinking that how close the numbers are is a testament to Kareem's greatness not ammunition to tear down his legacy.

What would the numbers be like if it was 22-34 year old Kareem vs. a 30-42 year old Moses?

Kareem far more skilled and dificult to guard with height advantage resulted in higher FG% (even at old age - asked Hakeem). The work horse Malone superior rebounder and at his prime dificult to be handled by past his prime Kareem. Kareem was capable of playing defense, even got some rebounds but his style is different from Malone.

If 22-34 Kareem played vs 30-42 year old Moses it would be masacre. While Kareem was still elite at 34 Malone was washed up in his late 30s, hardly imagine he could stay in the league till 42 as he ended at 39.

Prime Kareem vs prime Malone - I would give an edge to Kareem again, but not by far. Kareem will be ahead of ppg FG%, assists and blocks with possiibly a tie at rebounding or slight advantage for Malone. Prime Malone would get his 25 ppg, 17 rpg anyway vs Kareem.