Prime Carmelo Anthony vs. Prime Bernard King

[Lebron23]

Who's the better player?

[Xiao Yao You]

Bernard

[akts]

Bernard King.

[PHaYze]

King in today's game would be similar to a Michael Beasley. Gonna go with Melo.

[bizil]

Very similar players indeed. Melo even said he patterned his game after BK. I would roll with BK in this discussion. BK is arguably a top 10 GOAT SF ever. But I think peak value wise, King is clearly a top 10 SF of all time. And in terms of being a straight up scoring machine, he may be the BEST SF of all time peak value wise. But Melo is still somewhat young in his career, and in the all around sense is better than BK. But for who flat out is the better player, give me BK. I feel King and G Hill would have really shook up the GOAT SF list if they would have stayed healthy.

Bron is already shaking up that list and appears to be on collision course with Bird at the top. But Melo and Durant have the potential to shake up that list as well. I always dug those alpha dog SF's like King, Melo, Durant, Doc, Nique, English, Aguirre, and Dantley. Their all around games aren't on the level of Bird, Bron, Hondo, or Barry. But in terms of being straight up killers on the court, I really enjoy wathcin them play. And have a certain affinity for them because many of them tend to become underrated over time because they might have lacked the dominant all around skills of a Bird, Bron, Hondo, or Barry.

[blacknapalm]

King in today's game would be similar to a Michael Beasley. Gonna go with Melo.

why is that? king hardly took any 3's, had a deceptive first step and had a sick mid-range game

better questions....king vs english vs gervin vs dantley

[PHaYze]

why is that? king hardly took any 3's, had a deceptive first step and had a sick mid-range game
i was kidding, i dont give a rats ass about bernard kings game.

he's probably better than melo though, doesnt take much.

[Rowe]

why is that? king hardly took any 3's, had a deceptive first step and had a sick mid-range game

better questions....king vs english vs gervin vs dantley

Gervin hands down.

That really shouldn't be an argument.

[blacknapalm]

Gervin hands down.

That really shouldn't be an argument.

i almost didn't put him in there. peak wise, i agree. those other guys can make a case as far as career wise (except for king if solely for injuries). gervin was just too money though. 6'7" and top 10 in FG% twice? :bowdown:

[Rowe]

King in today's game would be similar to a Michael Beasley. Gonna go with Melo.

No. Not at all.

There really isn't any current NBA player to compare to Bernard King.

His "peak season" often gets overrated for his performance and eventual decline following injuries. The biggest mistake he made in his career was signing with the Bullets instead of joining the Celtics and coming off the bench. Red had a 1 year offer for him and he turned it down in favor of a bigger role. He would've contributed to a Championship team because an injured Larry Bird could've used a player like King to come off the bench and carry some of the scoring load.

If we're going off of their "peak season" then King has the edge.
If we're going off of career then Melo has the edge already just 9 years in.

[LockoutOver11]

Very similar players indeed. Melo even said he patterned his game after BK. I would roll with BK in this discussion. BK is arguably a top 10 GOAT SF ever. But I think peak value wise, King is clearly a top 10 SF of all time. And in terms of being a straight up scoring machine, he may be the BEST SF of all time peak value wise. But Melo is still somewhat young in his career, and in the all around sense is better than BK. But for who flat out is the better player, give me BK. I feel King and G Hill would have really shook up the GOAT SF list if they would have stayed healthy.

Bron is already shaking up that list and appears to be on collision course with Bird at the top. But Melo and Durant have the potential to shake up that list as well. I always dug those alpha dog SF's like King, Melo, Durant, Doc, Nique, English, Aguirre, and Dantley. Their all around games aren't on the level of Bird, Bron, Hondo, or Barry. But in terms of being straight up killers on the court, I really enjoy wathcin them play. And have a certain affinity for them because many of them tend to become underrated over time because they might have lacked the dominant all around skills of a Bird, Bron, Hondo, or Barry.

i agree with grant, not so much king... he was just a scorer it seems.

**** up with melo. he kept a team in playoff contention every year when he was a nugget in the western conference, and what the **** is up with those ****ing knicks... under .500 really? its gonna hurt melo's status in the long run if there are several more seasons of this shit. its been really one whole season but most people will see it as 2 already...

[Xiao Yao You]

better questions....king vs english vs gervin vs dantley

Ice Man


its gonna hurt melo's status in the long run if there are several more seasons of this shit. its been really one whole season but most people will see it as 2 already...

Already has. Between the Knicks and what the Nuggets have done he's a joke!

[Rowe]

i almost didn't put him in there. peak wise, i agree. those other guys can make a case as far as career wise (except for king if solely for injuries). gervin was just too money though. 6'7" and top 10 in FG% twice? :bowdown:
Agreed.

English, King, & Dantley get overrated by people today who are simply just looking at numbers of guys who "played in the 80's". Iceman is one of the best players to ever play in the NBA and its a shame he never played in a major market so that he could be immortalized.

People overlook him for his lack of championships but it isn't his fault entirely.

If the Spurs hadn't been in the Eastern Conference, he would've won a NBA Championship.

[Xiao Yao You]

Agreed.

English, King, & Dantley get overrated by people today who are simply just looking at numbers of guys who "played in the 80's".

English and Dantley were underrated when they played. They were comparable to Dominique despite the hype he got)similar to Carmelo today) and King who played in NY at the top of his game.



If the Spurs hadn't been in the Eastern Conference, he would've won a NBA Championship.

By the early 80's they were certainly dominating the midwest division.

[Myth]

I'd take King over Melo.

[Rowe]

English and Dantley were underrated when they played. They were comparable to Dominique despite the hype he got)similar to Carmelo today) and King who played in NY at the top of his game.

English and Dantley weren't underrated at all.

They just weren't on par with the Elite Forwards during that period of time and the NBA didn't have the means to promote their "other stars".

But as visiting teams the fans showed them respect for their game and showed both guys even more respect by writing their name on the All Star ballots after the games ended. How else would they have made it if they were "underrated"?

You know who was "underrated"? Dale Ellis & Paul Pressey.



By the early 80's they were certainly dominating the midwest division.
By the time they were shuffled into the Western Conference, Magic Johnson had arrived. That essentially ended Gervin's career as the Spurs were done.

Had they been in the West in 78 and 79, I think Gervin would've got a Championship espescially in 79' when the Sonics, who lacked a big time performer like Gervin, couldn't close out a Bullets team that gave them the chance.

[Xiao Yao You]

English and Dantley weren't underrated at all.

They were underrated compared to Dominique and Bernard King despite being comparable on the court.


But as visiting teams the fans showed them respect for their game and showed both guys even more respect by writing their name on the All Star ballots after the games ended. How else would they have made it if they were "underrated"?

They were voted into the all-star game by the fans?


You know who was "underrated"? Dale Ellis & Paul Pressey.

Never thought much of Ellis' game myself.

[JMT]

English and Dantley weren't underrated at all.

They just weren't on par with the Elite Forwards during that period of time and the NBA didn't have the means to promote their "other stars".

But as visiting teams the fans showed them respect for their game and showed both guys even more respect by writing their name on the All Star ballots after the games ended. How else would they have made it if they were "underrated"?

You know who was "underrated"? Paul Pressey.





Spot on.

English and Dantley weren't much different from King who wasn't much different from Melo, the object of everyones vitriol. One dimensional players...scorers...though they did it differently.

Hell, Melo was Pistol Pete as a passer compared to the black hole of Dantley. English's game was more predicated on slashing and midrange. Neither was a true threat to the top forwards of the day.

Dead on about Paul Pressey. A tremendous player, one of my favorites.

[Xiao Yao You]

Spot on.

English and Dantley weren't much different from King who wasn't much different from Melo, the object of everyones vitriol.

Carmelo and his followers have hyped him as one of the greats since he came into the league though when in reality he is just another in a long line of high scoring small forwatds. Similar to Dominique in his day.


Melo was Pistol Pete as a passer compared to the black hole of Dantley.

In his heyday in Utah he averaged between 2.8 and 4.8 assists a game. Carmelo between 2.6 and 3.8 in his career. :confusedshrug:

[Shepseskaf]

King in today's game would be similar to a Michael Beasley. Gonna go with Melo.
:facepalm

So says some 12-year old moron who I guarantee has never seen Bernard King in his prime.

I have, and its not even close. Prime Bernard craps all over Prime Carmelo. In the 1983-84 season, Bernard came in second play in the MVP voting (when the award actually meant something) to Bird.

I could go on and one, but the bottom line is that Carmelo has proven to be an elite scorer, but Bernard was among the top scorers ever to play the game.

Despite being a volume shooter, Bernard shot 52% from the field for his career.

King should be in the Hall of Fame. I doubt that Carmelo even gets close.

[JohnnySic]

There really isn't any current NBA player to compare to Bernard King.
Carmelo and Paul Pierce are comporable.

[JMT]

In his heyday in Utah he averaged between 2.8 and 4.8 assists a game. Carmelo between 2.6 and 3.8 in his career. :confusedshrug:

The emphasis on isolation and drawing illegal defense calls made it significantly easier to match those numbers.Trust me, I'm no Carmelo fan. But he can face up and deliver a pass within the flow of an offense better and more readily than AD.

And why are you comparing one career vs another prime? Their career #'s are virtually identical.

[Shepseskaf]

Carmelo and Paul Pierce are comporable.
No they aren't. Neither are close to being as explosive.

[JohnnySic]

King should be in the Hall of Fame. I doubt that Carmelo even gets close.
Are you serious? I agree that King was better, but Carmelo will make the HOF. He already has 15,000 points at age 27; he'll likely finish with 25,000+.

[Shepseskaf]

Are you serious? I agree that King was better, but Carmelo will make the HOF. He already has 15,000 points at age 27; he'll likely finish with 25,000+.
He's going to run into the same problem that Vince Carter will. The stats are all there, but the reputation will be an impediment.

i have my doubts that Carmelo gets in.

[Xiao Yao You]

Carmelo and Paul Pierce are comporable.

Pierce >>>>>>>>>>>Carmelo


he can face up and deliver a pass within the flow of an offense better and more readily than AD

Maybe but a black hole doesn't put up between 3-5 assists a game. He could pass out of the double and triple teams he attracted.


And why are you comparing one career vs another prime? Their career #'s are virtually identical.

Well AD was only a #1 option in Utah I believe. Those are his peak years. Carmelo always has been a #1 or 1b at least. They have similar games. Inside/out. Get to the line. Exactly why it's laughable that Carmelo is considered one of the greats and that the Knicks blew up their roster to get him. Jazz got Tripuka and Kent Benson for AD at the top of his game. ROTFLMAO!

[JMT]

Maybe but a black hole doesn't put up between 3-5 assists a game. He could pass out of the double and triple teams he attracted.



3 assists a game. Career average.

Different era, different rules. AD was regarded the same way as Mark Aquirre when it came to passing. He had the luxury of playing with some really good spot up shooters in a system that, despite allowing him to iso, was designed to generate a lot of possessions.

Trust me on this one. Voice of experience.

[Whoah10115]

Sounds like a lot of players who are not comparable with Dominique are being considered comparable with Dominique. Wilkins was much better than any of the guys being mentioned. One of the greats.



King just had too many injuries. He might not have been all-around, but his scoring ability was special enough to make him a great player. Just not enough of a full resume in the NBA. Tho I would have no problem with him in the Hall.


Adrian Dantley, from everything I have seen, is the biggest black hole ever. Just because he knew how to pass and got some assists doesn't necessarily mean much. If the entire offense was predicated on him deciding to get to his spot and then, if he couldn't put up a good shot, swing it to someone else...players who dominate everything will put up numbers. No surprise that his teams were not any good. I won't hang it all on him because I obviously don't know about it all to such a crazy extent. No problem with him being in the Hall but that's my observation. Kinda obvious I think.



Carmelo has more than just the ability to score. Carmelo should be a Hall-of-Famer. It's up to him to bother to play D. It's up to him to want to D up the other team's great perimeter scorer. It's up to him to let his points count towards a win and going places. But his talent level is much better than all the older guys he's being compared to in this thread, minus Wilkins.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

He's going to run into the same problem that Vince Carter will. The stats are all there, but the reputation will be an impediment.

i have my doubts that Carmelo gets in.

People forget that this is a BASKETBALL HOF and not a NBA HOF. His contribution for team USA and his college accomplishments will probaly get him in. Along with his stats , all-star selections and all-nba teams picks.

[Bigsmoke]

Melo

[iDunk]

We haven't seen Melos peak yet, he's being vastly misused by the Knicks.

[get these NETS]

carmelo is a throwback to the elite mid 80s sfs...

they were among the best all around scorers the league has ever seen

aguirre, english,dantley.nique,bird,king


it was a scoring position...

bird, paul pressey had passing skills and systems/players that took advantage of those skillls but for the most part...sf position was about getting buckets in a wide range of ways

the guys had unique talents but ..all could post up, face up, good footwork, good outside shooting, midrange game...


melo and king is a good comparison...comparable skill set...king had quickness advantage and played more aggressive game

[PHaYze]

Melo will be in the HOF. If it was the NBA hall of fame then he probably wouldn't make it.

Him absolutely shitting on the NCAA his only year, along with his Olympics play, never missing the playoffs(until maybe this year), total points, most points in a quarter will get him in. If he somehow ends up winning anything then he'll be a 100% lock.

[PHaYze]

We haven't seen Melos peak yet, he's being vastly misused by the Knicks.
IDK, Melo seems off. He's missing so many shots he easily made w/ Denver. He needs to work his ass off over the summer.

[Shepseskaf]

People forget that this is a BASKETBALL HOF and not a NBA HOF. His contribution for team USA and his college accomplishments will probaly get him in. Along with his stats , all-star selections and all-nba teams picks.
You may be right in this, but it still doesn't sit right with me. Carmelo may wait through a few years of eligibility, though, if he does get in.

[bizil]

I don't think King was as one dimensional as many think. He has a career rebounding average right around six a game. Which featured a couple of seasons with 9.5 boards and 8.2 boards. Those are very good even great numbers for a SF. Sure he wasn't a dominant all around guy like Bird, Bron, Hondo, Pippen, or Barry. But guys like Nique, King, and English were very good rebounders for a SF. All of them have posted 8-9 rebound seasons before.

But most importantly, King was epic at the MOST PREMIUM ASSET IN BBALL! And thats the ability to be an alpha dog scorer and takeover a game. U have to remember that the better all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases. I've seen Paul Pressey brought up in this thread. He was one of the first point forwards and capable of playing three positions and defending them as well. But King was CLEARLY a superior player to Pressey. Because King's IMPACT on a game in greater. King was a better scorer and rebounder than Pressey. Pressey was a better defender and passer. So King has two edges on Pressey. Nique and English have the same edges on Pressey.

And I very much believe Melo and King have many similar traits. This myth that Melo isn't explosive enough to be considered similar to King is comical. Both are explosive on that baseline and strong finishers. Both also have a great first step. But they aren't freakish like Bron, Dr. J, or Nique.

[bizil]

carmelo is a throwback to the elite mid 80s sfs...

they were among the best all around scorers the league has ever seen

aguirre, english,dantley.nique,bird,king


it was a scoring position...

bird, paul pressey had passing skills and systems/players that took advantage of those skillls but for the most part...sf position was about getting buckets in a wide range of ways

the guys had unique talents but ..all could post up, face up, good footwork, good outside shooting, midrange game...


melo and king is a good comparison...comparable skill set...king had quickness advantage and played more aggressive game

Well said sir! Those 80's guys all had great scoring skillsets!

[SwooshReturns]

I thought Melo and Glenn Robinson were closer as players than Melo and King.

[LockoutOver11]

Melo will be in the HOF. If it was the NBA hall of fame then he probably wouldn't make it.

Him absolutely shitting on the NCAA his only year, along with his Olympics play, never missing the playoffs(until maybe this year), total points, most points in a quarter will get him in. If he somehow ends up winning anything then he'll be a 100% lock.

ouch, if the knicks miss the playoffs. ny is gonna go crazy, knicks turmoil. thank god im not a fan of my hometown team. too bad because i like alot of their pieces. hate the coach. hate the owner.

[SwooshReturns]

We haven't seen Melos peak yet, he's being vastly misused by the Knicks.
Yea we have, dude ... players at their peak are usually from 24 - 28 (sometimes 30)

Carmelo has clearly reached the pinnacle of what he will be as a player. And he's probably been there for 3 or 4 years now.

[Shepseskaf]

Carmelo has clearly reached the pinnacle of what he will be as a player. And he's probably been there for 3 or 4 years now.
Agreed.

If he actually spent some time on fitness, Carmelo would have extended this. He's on the downside now, with a fat contract.

[Xiao Yao You]

Sounds like a lot of players who are not comparable with Dominique are being considered comparable with Dominique. Wilkins was much better than any of the guys being mentioned. One of the greats.

He was a great scoring SF just like the others we're talking about. Like Carmelo he was placed higher in his day based on ESPN highlites and hype. Was never really that impressed by him hopping all over the court myself. Like Carmelo in NY, Atlanta added high priced FA's Reggie Theus and Moses Malone one year that was supposed to be them over the top. He just wasn't that great.


No surprise that his teams were not any good.

He led a the saddest franchise in all of basketball at the time from 30 wins to 45 and a Midwest division title for their first playoff appearance and start the great string of playoff appearances that Sloan/Malone/Stockton now get the credit for. That included an incredible first half that got a crappy coach in as the west all-star coach.


I won't hang it all on him because I obviously don't know about it all to such a crazy extent.

Obviously. Once they started to put some other pieces around him he got them involved and they started to win.


his talent level is much better than all the older guys he's being compared to in this thread, minus Wilkins.

Maybe but that doesn't make him better than a guy that worked as hard as A.D. to succeed. Arguably the best low post scorer ever inch for inch. I've heard he was really only 6'2". Very strong and one of the best conditioned athletes. A master at drawing fouls. Could hit the hit outside shot if you gave it to him. Would blow by you with a head and shoulder fake while drawing the foul if you didn't. Could pass out of the coverage and hit the offensive glass.

Carmelo was lucky to have the chance to work with him in Denver. They have a lot of similarities in their games.


I thought Melo and Glenn Robinson were closer as players than Melo and King.

Great comparison. Again the hype doesn't equal the player.

[TheBluest]

Who's the better player?


I don't know which thread is worse asking if....


Melo has been a Top 10 Player in his career

or

Comparing primes, Melo vs King


Bernard would destroy Melo. it would be an atrocity of all atrocities to witness

[pauk]

Bernard King by far

[bizil]

He was a great scoring SF just like the others we're talking about. Like Carmelo he was placed higher in his day based on ESPN highlites and hype. Was never really that impressed by him hopping all over the court myself. Like Carmelo in NY, Atlanta added high priced FA's Reggie Theus and Moses Malone one year that was supposed to be them over the top. He just wasn't that great.



He led a the saddest franchise in all of basketball at the time from 30 wins to 45 and a Midwest division title for their first playoff appearance and start the great string of playoff appearances that Sloan/Malone/Stockton now get the credit for. That included an incredible first half that got a crappy coach in as the west all-star coach.



Obviously. Once they started to put some other pieces around him he got them involved and they started to win.



Maybe but that doesn't make him better than a guy that worked as hard as A.D. to succeed. Arguably the best low post scorer ever inch for inch. I've heard he was really only 6'2". Very strong and one of the best conditioned athletes. A master at drawing fouls. Could hit the hit outside shot if you gave it to him. Would blow by you with a head and shoulder fake while drawing the foul if you didn't. Could pass out of the coverage and hit the offensive glass.

Carmelo was lucky to have the chance to work with him in Denver. They have a lot of similarities in their games.



Great comparison. Again the hype doesn't equal the player.


Nique was great, hell an icon in my book. He was much more than a great player. He helped the NBA put a lot of asses in the seat and ratings wise. Nique was box office, the shining box office star of the Southeast. This was before the Heat, Charlotte, and Orlando came around. Nique on TBS was all the Southeast had for a long time. He redefined the SF position and athletic ability in the L. If u look at the freak athlete SF who was an alpha dog scoring machine, the tree went like this:

Baylor
Hawkins
Erving
Wilkins

After that u had guys like Bron come along. But Nique has a firm place in that group. The other SF's like King, English, Aguirre, Dantley, and Kiki while great didn't redefine the SF position in the manner that Wilkins did. Larry Bird said himself that he, MJ, King, and Wilkins were on another level when it came to perimeter scorers during that time. And I feel Bird was right, even though u had many SG's and SF's who were awesome, legendary scorers. I feel Bird's two greatest rivals at SF turned out to be Dr. J and Dominique. King would have been in there as well if not for injuries. But Bird and Nique actually had the longest most enduring rivalry at the SF spot in that particular era.

And u mention Theus and Moses on that Hawks team. They didn't keep that Hawks team together long enough. But Nique led many of those Hawks teams to 50+ win seasons. And the East was loaded with Boston, Detroit, Milwaukee, and later Chicago. Nique NEVER had the consistent firepower that those teams had.

[Xiao Yao You]

Nique was great, hell an icon in my book. He was much more than a great player. He helped the NBA put a lot of asses in the seat and ratings wise. Nique was box office, the shining box office star of the Southeast. This was before the Heat, Charlotte, and Orlando came around. Nique on TBS was all the Southeast had for a long time. He redefined the SF position and athletic ability in the L. If u look at the freak athlete SF who was an alpha dog scoring machine, the tree went like this:

Baylor
Hawkins
Erving
Wilkins

After that u had guys like Bron come along. But Nique has a firm place in that group. The other SF's like King, English, Aguirre, Dantley, and Kiki while great didn't redefine the SF position in the manner that Wilkins did. Larry Bird said himself that he, MJ, King, and Wilkins were on another level when it came to perimeter scorers during that time. And I feel Bird was right, even though u had many SG's and SF's who were awesome, legendary scorers. I feel Bird's two greatest rivals at SF turned out to be Dr. J and Dominique. King would have been in there as well if not for injuries. But Bird and Nique actually had the longest most enduring rivalry at the SF spot in that particular era.

And u mention Theus and Moses on that Hawks team. They didn't keep that Hawks team together long enough. But Nique led many of those Hawks teams to 50+ win seasons. And the East was loaded with Boston, Detroit, Milwaukee, and later Chicago. Nique NEVER had the consistent firepower that those teams had.

Bird was wrong. He and MJ were on another level. King and Wilkens were high scoring SF's like the others. With his skills he should have done a lot more. He was an underachiever that didn't live up to the hype. I was more impressed with him at the end with SA. He was still athletic but he was playing D and the little things he never did in Atlanta.

[bizil]

Bird was wrong. He and MJ were on another level. King and Wilkens were high scoring SF's like the others. With his skills he should have done a lot more. He was an underachiever that didn't live up to the hype. I was more impressed with him at the end with SA. He was still athletic but he was playing D and the little things he never did in Atlanta.

As total players Bird and MJ were on another level than King and Bird. But as far as scoring machines, the gap between the four was A LOT SMALLER! I remember on those Come Fly with Me tapes with MJ where he said the TOP PLAYER he got up to play against was Nique. The reason why is because Nique was his rival in terms of being an unstoppable freak athlete scoring machine.

And what do u mean Nique underachieved? Hell he OVERACHIEVED with that Hawks team in the 80's! And u are what your skillset says u are often times. Just because he wasn't a great defender or great passer DOESN'T mean he was lazy or underachieved. If anything, I think Nique expended so much energy on offense that he was less effective on defense. Guys like MJ could balance the two better and MJ was an elite defender to begin with. And every player DOESN'T have point forward skills or is a great passer. Once it again it doesn't mean Nique underachieved it's just that those skills weren't his strengths.

An underachiever is letting your body get out of control. Or letting a drug habit totally ruin your career. Or being a knucklehead with horrible shot selection. Or not using your great strengths to its fullest and being lazy. Nique was none of those things. He was a great scorer and very good-great rebounder for a SF. It just so happened that passing and defense weren't his strong suits. Just like Magic and Larry's one on one defense weren't their strong suits. Or scoring wasn't Rodman's strong suit.

[bizil]

Bird was wrong. He and MJ were on another level. King and Wilkens were high scoring SF's like the others. With his skills he should have done a lot more. He was an underachiever that didn't live up to the hype. I was more impressed with him at the end with SA. He was still athletic but he was playing D and the little things he never did in Atlanta.

And the Hawks traded Nique when he had his best shot for a ring. The Hawks were number one in the East. Nique at 34 years old was still a great player and a top 2-3 SF in the L. They traded Nique for a "so called" better all around player in Manning. And look what happened the Hawks got bounced early. But Nique in my book had a very good chance at a ring against the Rockets. But Nique getting that team to the Finals would have done some great things for his legacy. How could u be more impressed with Nique in SA than in ATL. Nique was 37 years old, coming off the bench, and outta of his prime. But he was still very good and put up 18 points playing often times outta position at PF. As impressive as it was, Nique really started hitting his stride in the all around sense in his early 30's during the early 90's. Plus u gotta give Nique credit for coming back strong from that Achilles injury. The hate Nique gets is baffling to me!!!

[Xiao Yao You]

As total players Bird and MJ were on another level than King and Bird. But as far as scoring machines, the gap between the four was A LOT SMALLER!

But A.D. and English were right there with Dominique and King as scoring machines. Just because they didn't do it as flashy or on the NY stage doesn't make it any less impressive.


And the Hawks traded Nique when he had his best shot for a ring. The Hawks were number one in the East.

I would have traded him long before that. He wasn't taking them anywhere.


How could u be more impressed with Nique in SA than in ATL.

Because I wasn't ever that impressed with him hopping around the court in the first place.

[bizil]

But A.D. and English were right there with Dominique and King as scoring machines. Just because they didn't do it as flashy or on the NY stage doesn't make it any less impressive.



I would have traded him long before that. He wasn't taking them anywhere.



Because I wasn't ever that impressed with him hopping around the court in the first place.

For one the great Larry Bird said he, MJ, Nique, and King were on another level from other scorers of that era, not me. Bird forgot more about bball than we will ever know so I will take his word for it. I never doubted English or Dantley at all. But I feel the way MJ, Bird, King, and Nique scored revolutionized their positions in the scoring aspects. English and Dantley weren't as explosive on the baseline as King and Nique. They didn't have the three point range or the size of Bird. Slashing wise, Nique and King are two of the greatest SF's of all time in that regard as well. Dantley and English could score in a multitude of ways, but Bird, Nique, and King either had superior size or superior explosiveness that set them apart.

U can't teach size or explosiveness. Those are the facets that Bird (size), MJ, Nique, and King (explosiveness) brought to the table. And the combined it with their great scoring skillsets. But frankly, I always considered Dantley, English, Aguirre, Bird, Nique, Kiki, and even Worthy great alpha dog level scorers. How u would rank them can be like splitting straws. But I do feel that Bird, King, Nique, and Worthy had a little something more special due to factors like size and explosiveness.

[bizil]

But A.D. and English were right there with Dominique and King as scoring machines. Just because they didn't do it as flashy or on the NY stage doesn't make it any less impressive.



I would have traded him long before that. He wasn't taking them anywhere.



Because I wasn't ever that impressed with him hopping around the court in the first place.

Nique was MUCH MORE THAN HOPPING AROUND THE COURT! In the 80's NBA, u would get put on your ass for trying to dunk ALL of the time. Sure Nique got his share of dunks. But in order to be the career leader in total points in NBA history at the SF, Nique HAD to do more than just dunk on people. I say without hesitation that Nique was:

The most explosive scorer in terms of athletic ability EVER at the SF

Had one of the most deadly bankshots EVER at SF

Had one of the greatest array of floaters and finger rolls EVER at the SF

Had one of the premier postup games EVER at the SF

And in terms of the freak athlete scoring alpha dogs at SF (Baylor, Hawkins, Dr.J, Bron, etc) he had THE MOST COMPLETE SCORING SKILLSET EVER!

And on top of it, Nique developed a very good midrange jumper. So Nique was much more than just hopping around on the court. The fact the he's the highest scoring SF of NBA history for career points (and only 2nd to Dr. J for ABA-NBA) says a lot. Kareem is the man at center for that. At the PF its Malone. At SG its MJ. And PG its Big O. That's the company Nique is in!

[04mzwach]

I have today's Melo over just about any past player for 1V1.

[Xiao Yao You]

For one the great Larry Bird said he, MJ, Nique, and King were on another level from other scorers of that era, not me.

Bird wasn't that big of a scorer. It was his overall game that set him apart.


English and Dantley weren't as explosive on the baseline as King and Nique. They didn't have the three point range or the size of Bird. Slashing wise, Nique and King are two of the greatest SF's of all time in that regard as well. Dantley and English could score in a multitude of ways, but Bird, Nique, and King either had superior size or superior explosiveness that set them apart.

None of them post up or get to the line like A.D. He could also slash to the hole and hit the outside shot. English could also slash and shoot. Wilkens was a great scorer not one of the great players.


I do feel that Bird, King, Nique, and Worthy had a little something more special due to factors like size and explosiveness.

Worthy too was overrated. He was on the right team at the right time.

Funny thing is A.D. played ahead of King in Utah for a short while before King committed sexual assault. The Jazz also dealt Wilkens more because of the million dollars they got kept them in town than because of AD though.

Wilkens was the Carmelo of his day.

[Xiao Yao You]

Nique was MUCH MORE THAN HOPPING AROUND THE COURT!

Agreed. He developed a nice all-around scoring set but his hopping is what got him all the hype and he wasn't up with the best players of his day which is why he's not talked about as one of the greats anymore. Same will happen to Carmelo. Should be already! What more do people need to see to realize Carmelo isn't one of the games greats?


That's the company Nique is in!

Again as far as I saw it he's in the company with the other high scoring small forwards not the all-time great players.

[bizil]

Agreed. He developed a nice all-around scoring set but his hopping is what got him all the hype and he wasn't up with the best players of his day which is why he's not talked about as one of the greats anymore. Same will happen to Carmelo. Should be already! What more do people need to see to realize Carmelo isn't one of the games greats?



Again as far as I saw it he's in the company with the other high scoring small forwards not the all-time great players.

Nique is an all time great player that can be ranked in that 30-40 range GOAT wise. He's firmly entrenched in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever and in the HOF. So how can u say that Nique isn't an all time great? U don't have to be rated in the top 10 GOAT to be an all time great. If u are worthy of HOF status, then u are an all time great flat out!

Secondly, I never said Dantley and English didn't have great scoring skillsets. What I said was King, Bird, Worthy, and Wilkins had certain attributes like size, athletic ablity, or explosiveness that made their skillsets somewhat more devastating to me. Worthy was truly an alpha dog type player. But he played on deep ass teams that featured two of the top 5-6 GOAT. And he played with guys like McAdoo, Scott, Wilkes, etc. From a scoring talent standpoint, those Lakers teams are amongst the best of all time.

Put Worthy on a team where he had to be the guy scoring the rock, and u will get clutch, takeover scoring at a 25-27 point clip. I'm truly convinced by that. By the time Magic retired the first time, Worthy's body was already beat up to the point where he couldn't show what he could do. He was still an All Star caliber SF, but was more of a pure second option type. Worthy's body started breaking down relatively young while Magic was still going strong and in his prime that year vs. the Bulls in the Finals.

[knickswin]

i want melo to emulate king. the game is different now, but in some ways it's kind of the perfect time for a power three. a lot of the centers are defensive. a lot of the power forwards are stretch fours. perfect time for a forward to play like a big man.

king was a more explosive scorer and had such an incredibly quick release that it was hard for him to hurt the team's offense. melo is a better rebounder and probably a better passer too.

[SacJB Shady]

Does carmelo anthony knows that he sucks at basketball? does he even know that?

[Xiao Yao You]

Nique is an all time great player that can be ranked in that 30-40 range GOAT wise. He's firmly entrenched in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever and in the HOF. So how can u say that Nique isn't an all time great? U don't have to be rated in the top 10 GOAT to be an all time great. If u are worthy of HOF status, then u are an all time great flat out!

Guess it depends on what you view as an all-time great. There are special players that stand out above the rest and than there are guys like Wilkens that are in a large group of high scoring small forwards that you take your pick from depending on your preference. Hopping around the court didn't impress me as much as a lot of other guys that got similar results without the hype.


I never said Dantley and English didn't have great scoring skillsets. What I said was King, Bird, Worthy, and Wilkins had certain attributes like size, athletic ablity, or explosiveness that made their skillsets somewhat more devastating to me.

None of those guys are in Bird's league. Worthy isn't in the group of great high scoring small forwards that King and Wilkens are either.


Worthy was truly an alpha dog type player.

Very arguable.


Put Worthy on a team where he had to be the guy scoring the rock, and u will get clutch, takeover scoring at a 25-27 point clip.

Possibly? We'll never know. Just like we might have never known AD or English or Wilkens or King could do what they'd done if they'd been put in a different situation.


By the time Magic retired the first time, Worthy's body was already beat up to the point where he couldn't show what he could do.

How convenient that he has that excuse. Maybe it was just that Magic made him?

[bizil]

Guess it depends on what you view as an all-time great. There are special players that stand out above the rest and than there are guys like Wilkens that are in a large group of high scoring small forwards that you take your pick from depending on your preference. Hopping around the court didn't impress me as much as a lot of other guys that got similar results without the hype.



None of those guys are in Bird's league. Worthy isn't in the group of great high scoring small forwards that King and Wilkens are either.



Very arguable.



Possibly? We'll never know. Just like we might have never known AD or English or Wilkens or King could do what they'd done if they'd been put in a different situation.



How convenient that he has that excuse. Maybe it was just that Magic made him?

Say what u want about Nique but the man is in the HOF! And in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever. In terms of scoring, Nique, King, English, and Dantley are in Bird's league. It's Bird's all around game that sets him apart from those guys. And Worthy had all the goods to be an alpha dog scorer. His Finals MVP in 1988 proved that. He was splitting the pie with arguably the most talented offensive machine in NBA history. And it's NO excuse that Worthy's body was breaking down when Magic retired the first time. It's a fact and by that time, James was flat out a number two option. Worthy retired at the very young age of 32 years old. That's an age where many or the greats are at their peak or if anything in their prime. So that goes to show that Worthy KNEW his body was breaking down. Many of the other great SF's like Bird, Nique, Doc, Hondo, etc. were all still great at 32 years old.

[Xiao Yao You]

Say what u want about Nique but the man is in the HOF!

So are AD and English and King I imagine will be eventually.


And in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever.

Very arguable. Great scoring small forward. I prefer guys with more all-around games myself.


In terms of scoring, Nique, King, English, and Dantley are in Bird's league.

Probably ahead of him.


It's Bird's all around game that sets him apart from those guys.

What I said.


And Worthy had all the goods to be an alpha dog scorer. His Finals MVP in 1988 proved that.

arguable


He was splitting the pie with arguably the most talented offensive machine in NBA history.

Exactly. Would he have put up 30 a game in Denver/Atlanta/Utah/NY/etc.?