Wilt's defense at 34 years old [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 02:37 AM

Oh god. This man really is unbelievable... I'm starting to believe the shit of him dominating in todays league, this is just too good.

1 week after that series with the Bulls (which LA wins thanks to Wilt), Wilt faced the 24 year old, now prime, MVP Kareem Abdul Jabbar. The NBA scoring leader, and dominant man on one of the GOAT teams in NBA history, the 1971 Milwaukee Bucks who were setting records left and right, and still hold the record for beating teams by the widest point margin average in NBA history.

Remember how Baylor and West DNP in that Bulls series? Well, As luck would have it, 1 other starter get's injured and cannot play for the Bucks series. LA is ridiculously crippled. Newspapers in LA headlined "Laker hopes rest in Wilt".

In spite of the Lakers losing the series, Wilt disappoints no one. Wilt played Kareem with such determination he had every reporter, fan, and player of the city of Milwaukee in complete awe. The Bucks were winning yet it was Wilt who was making LA, Milwaukee, and National sports headlines for "winning the battles" against Kareem. In the 5th and final game of the series as LA was ousted, Wilt got a several minute long standing ovation.... By the Milwaukee Bucks crowd!. WTF!? Milwaukee Journal prints a massive picture of him DOMINATING Kareem at the basket. I've never seen this kind of respect for an opposing player coming to town to hand their very own MVP his own ass. Milwaukee Journal couldn't fit the entire story of Wilt's impressive performance on their sports page... so they continue it anyways on another page... :roll:

Stuff like this sounds corny as hell, just like any other Wilt myth, but lots of cheesy stuff like this really happened lol. The guy is legendary, there's no other way to describe him...

Milwaukee Journal, page 1
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-su644QKICVc/T0mwR82cKkI/AAAAAAAADAw/hIJy1IteT1E/s800/April%252019th%25201971%2520-%2520Lakers%2520lose%252C%2520Chamberlain%2520ovat ion.jpg
Page 2
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0zccCuQRTV4/T0mwRa6V3OI/AAAAAAAADAg/dmJz1jlgwtw/s640/April%252019th%25201971%2520-%2520Part%2520two%2520Milwaukee%2520Journal.jpg

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 02:40 AM

http://gifsoup.com/view1/3427465/wilt-freethrow-o.gif

Wilt hold's the NBA record for giving the least amount of f_ck while shooting free throws :lol

jlauber

03-16-2012, 07:41 AM

The block at just past the 6 minute mark is amazing for a 34 year old, at over 300 lbs., and only one year removed from major knee surgery. I like the fact that they replay it in slow motion. Wilt's fingertips are near the top of the square...on a play in which he has no time to react, and goes straight up to block the shot.

As for his FT shooting, I don't have time to post his shooting form from earlier in his career right now (including college), but it was much better, and he was a significantly better shooter then, than in later in his career.

Jotaro Durant

03-16-2012, 07:56 AM

how can any ppl say russell was better:facepalm

D-Wade316

03-16-2012, 08:32 AM

how can any ppl say russell was better:facepalm
Boston's DRTG before, during, and after Russell's career.

1956 - 90.9 (#7, +0.6 above league average) <- before
1957 - 83.1 (#1, -4.9 below league average) <- during
1958 - 82.2 (#1, -5.4 below league average)
1959 - 84.2 (#1, -5.6 below league average)
1960 - 84.4 (#1, -6.1 below league average)
1961 - 83.7 (#1, -8.1 below league average)
1962 - 84.8 (#1, -8.8 below league average)
1963 - 87.1 (#1, -9.1 below league average) :bowdown:
1964 - 84.2 (#1, -10.2 below league average) :bowdown:
1965 - 83.6 (#1, -10.1 below league average) :bowdown:
1966 - 87.6 (#1, -7.2 below league average)
1967 - 91.8 (#1, -4.6 below league average)
1968 - 92.3 (#1, -5.0 below league average)
1969 - 89.2 (#1, -6.7 below league average)
1970 - 99.2 (#6, -0.8 below league average) <-after

Team impact matters more than individual stats. Russell had GOAT impact year every year. Even at old age, his Celtics were destroying the league. Their defense was so good that it overcame their poor offense.

inclinerator

03-16-2012, 08:36 AM

tremedous quick leaper

It's A VC3!!!

03-16-2012, 10:09 AM

The Best Peek Player Ever

Most Dominant Player Ever

Best Center of All Time

There was only 2 other 7 footers in the league during his time I read. He's overrated to me. Others think he's a gift to Earth though. With his claimed strength and agility, having to go up against only 2 7 footers is not impressive. Most of the people who guarded him were like 6'9 or 6'10.

mentallooser

03-16-2012, 11:32 AM

His hand movement and reflexes are what really does it for me. He reacts correctly so consistently. That is the sort of thing that tells me height isn't the issue. It might be, I don't know. His defensive skill and instinct was absolutely insane.

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 11:34 AM

There was only 2 other 7 footers in the league during his time I read. He's overrated to me. Others think he's a gift to Earth though. With his claimed strength and agility, having to go up against only 2 7 footers is not impressive. Most of the people who guarded him were like 6'9 or 6'10.
:facepalm

Are you Trolling?

Because if you must troll least make some effort to be a little more clever and check your bases before posting. Wilt is facing a 7 foot guy Tom Boerwinkle in the video... just a few comments down I posted news clips of him dominating the prime MVP Kareem Abdul Jabbar at Milwaukee just 1 week later... Sooooooo there's 2 7 footers within a week of each other in the playoffs... soo what are the odds are that those two guys are the only "two 7 footers" he battled throughout that entire 14 year career?... Not good. He faced quite a few more, even from the very start and during the prime of his career.

P.S. Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Ben Wallace, Emeka Okafur, Bismack Biyombo and Dwight Howard are all 6'10 and under in real life. And out of 1,499 draft candidates since 1989 that have been measured in their bare feet, only about ~20-30 people have ever been truly over 7 feet tall. And only about 1/3rd of them made it into the NBA... and only about a 1/3rd of those who made it are even worth remembering. There aren't a lot of true 7 footers in the NBA at any given time - The NBA today inflates list heights. The NBA of his era didn't, so this is an "on paper" error to assume he faced competition any shorter than today - the centers he faced are all the size of modern centers. Plus, I can assure you in a 9 team and 12 team league, having just a hand full of true 7 footers on some teams means he's facing them more often than having that equal sized hand full of 7 footers Dwight Howard faces in today's 30 team league. Being 7 foot doesn't make you a good center. Very few real-life 7 footers can be called "dominant" - the majority of top tier centers throughout NBA history have been under 7 foot in their bare feet, because being 7 feet tall and athletic is a rare combination. Who's better, Ewing and Olajuwon?, or Manute Bol and George Muresan?

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 11:52 AM

I don't know if anyone has done so yet, but if you enable annotations when watching the video. There is great text commentary scattered throughout the video that explains who is who, and what to look for throughout the entire video. It helps to have some perspective on how tall each player is, who the superstars are, etc. Especially in that older era. I recommend watching it with annotations enabled.

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 12:06 PM

wilt was so incredible.. so strong, so athletic..so caring and soft.. let me tell you... His unit matched his height... but he liked to give alot more than recieved.. amazing person.. Unbelievable lover.
:wtf:

Eric Cartman

03-16-2012, 12:13 PM

:wtf:

He likes it like that.

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 12:59 PM

Oh no CavaliersFTW

You're now on the :bowdown: :bowdown: bandwagon too? :(

Guess it was just a matter of time, Old Man. The kids are finally overwhelming us.
:oldlol:

I've been :bowdown: to Wilt since my very first post on IH, the video I posted is from my youtube channel!

http://www.youtube.com/user/dantheman9758?feature=mhee

CavaliersFTW

03-16-2012, 01:18 PM

Oh god. This man really is unbelievable... I'm starting to believe the shit of him dominating in todays league, this is just too good.

You know what's really unbelievable? That's the same guy who did this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4WZXiaDzyc&t=12m43s

jlauber

03-16-2012, 08:01 PM

The clinching game five of the '72 Finals is on YouTube (nearly all of it anyway), in 11 parts.

BTW, in that game, Chamberlain was playing with one badly sprained wrist, and the other, FRACTURED (in game four, and in a game in which Chamberlain played 53 minutes)...oh, and he was 35 years old, too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0ZbUk4fXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHskN2mt-Y0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW-GEZQzw5o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckZZ8Uj4JmA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcjwADfAjrg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8stSTQfa6tQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT6Wz_L46Vs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyOnw3hRFoA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoOD8VtNIm8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBCo84u8tKs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbFcAYrco18

Chamberlain's line...

24 points, 10-14 from the floor, 4-9 from the line, ? assists (I have read anywhere from 4 to 8), 9 blocks, and 29 rebounds (the entire Knick team had 39 BTW.)

jlauber

03-25-2012, 01:20 AM

How about this comment from Dantheman...

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=PdIUXjVKehI&page=1

What a steaming pile of hot garbage. Wilt blocked Kareem's skyhook 23 times in one playoff series, and 7 of those were in ONE game. He's blocks a left and right handed release twice in 10 seconds and you think Kareem let him!?!? Chamberlain was special, we barely have any footage of him yet somehow a clip of him doing this twice in a row surfaces? It's because he did it OFTEN. He was the ONLY player to ever make the skyhook look as weak as a normal hook shot, he was an anti-skyhook
dantheman9758 in reply to imamfollower (Show the comment) 4 months ago

BTW, we do have a number of recorded Wilt blocks on Kareem in that series (some 21), but as a followup, I actually WATCHED EVERY game in that series, and Wilt did indeed block the "unblockable" sky hook OFTEN in that series. He would routinely overplay Kareem to Abdul-Jabbar's right, and was able to get to spinning right-handed hook shot many times in that series. And, the 35 year old, and on a surgically repaired knee, was quick enough to get back to the other side, if Kareem faked and went left.

Of course, holding a Kareem, in his greatest statistical season (34.8 ppg on .574 shooting) to .457 shooting in that series was amazing enough...BUT, in the last FOUR games of that series, Wilt shut down Kareem to the tune of .414 shooting.

In fact, including those last four games of the '72 WCF's, and their six regular season H2H's in the very next season, Chamberlain held Kareem to .434 shooting in their LAST TEN STRAIGHT H2H meetings! BTWE, in his LAST season, and in those six H2H games with Kareem, Chamberlain outshot Kareem by a staggering .737 to .450 margin (which included one game in which he even outscored Kareem, 24-21, and outshot him, 10-14 to 10-27.)

PTB Fan

03-25-2012, 06:16 AM

Wilt's defensive excellence during his LA years, gives him a decent case for the honor of greatest defender of all time.

Bigsmoke

03-25-2012, 07:00 AM

Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Kareem and Mutombo were all still good when they were 34:sleeping

rodman91

03-25-2012, 07:18 AM

He could be good backup to Noah. In this highlight he seems as good as Omer Asik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3My4MHr51c

Helix

03-25-2012, 08:18 AM

Wilt's defensive excellence during his LA years, gives him a decent case for the honor of greatest defender of all time.

Although he wasn't concentrating solely on defense in 67 and 68, his defense those years was just about as good. He was a few years younger and hadn't yet torn up his knee.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 08:45 AM

Although he wasn't concentrating solely on defense in 67 and 68, his defense those years was just about as good. He was a few years younger and hadn't yet torn up his knee.

He was at his defensive peak in the mid-60's. I have posted the numbers many times, but in almost every one of his 29 playoff series, he DRAMATICALLY reduced his opposing center's FG%'s. In fact, in those 29 playoff series, he only surrendered a 50% or better FG% in TWO.

One of them was against multiple all-star Zelmo Beaty in the '64 playoffs. Beaty shot .521 against Wilt, while scoring 14.3 ppg along with 9.5 rpg. Meanwhile, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .559 against him.

The other came against Jerry Lucas in the '72 Finals. Granted, Lucas was a PF playing out of position, but many here are probably not aware of the fact that Lucas had tremendous range. The term "Lucas Layup" was coined after his 25+ ft range. In the '72 Finals, Lucas shot an even .500 against Wilt. However, in the first half of the first game, he was hitting shots from the Santa Monica Freeway, and at halftime, he had gone 9-11. A 35 year old Wilt managed to defend Lucas, and STILL cover the paint, the remainder of that series. Lucas went 37-81 the rest of the series, or .456.

You can go right down the list. In one series against Red Kerr, Chamberlain held him down from his season average of .443 shooting down to .376, and in the other it went from .392 to .296 against Wilt. Russell shot .457 in the '62 regular season, and in the ECF's against Wilt, .420. In the '67 regular season, Russell shot .454. In the '67 ECF's, and against Wilt... .358. Thurmond shot .437 in the '67 regular season, and in the Finals, and against Wilt... .343. Bellamy shot .541 in the '68 regular season, and only .421 against Wilt in the playoffs.

And there were other's in which we don't have verifiable FG%'s, but in which we could take an solid educated guess. For instance, Russell shot .433 in the '64 regular season, but only .356 in his ten post-season games, five of which were against Wilt.

And I have read some here who claim that Wilt was not a good defensive player early in his career. Well, in his ROOKIE season, in 59-60, he faced Russell in 11 regular season H2H's. And we have an article which covered their first ten H2H's. Keep in mind that Russell shot his career high that season, going .467 overall (and in a league that shot .410). In those ten H2H games, Wilt held Russell to .398 shooting.

And, how about Wilt's first encounter against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy? Bellamy came into that came averaging over 30 ppg. At the opening center jump, Chamberlain told Bellamy that he would he )Bellamy) would not score a point in the game. Sure enough, in the first half, Wilt held Bellamy scoreless, and blocked numerous shots. As they were getting ready for the seond half tip-off, a shell-shocked Bellamy was relieved to hear Wilt tell him that he would "let him play" the rest of the game. BTW, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy in that first encounter, 52-14.

Back to a PRIME Wilt, and his defense. Take a look at the single season rankings in terms of Defensive Win Shares...aside from Russell, the highest achieved were by Chamberlain, and they came in the mid-60's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

And to be honest, Wilt was probably at his peak in '67, even though in that season, it was well down the list from his '68 and '64 seasons, in which he had the 7th and 8th best seasons of all-time. Once again, in the playoffs in '67, he completely shut down Russell (.358), and Thurmond (.343.)

Helix

03-25-2012, 08:47 AM

He could be good backup to Noah. In this highlight he seems as good as Omer Asik.

You know, why do you find it necessary to make a trolling comment like this? Why not add to the discussion rather than take away from it.

A good backup to Noah?!?! Well let me see if I can explain something to you. Any of us "older folks" posting here that saw Wilt play and claim that he would be dominant today.....well, there are reasons for that.

1.Wilt was extremely well grounded in the fundamentals.....comparable to Duncan.

2.Wilt had a high basketball IQ.....once again Duncan comes to mind.

3.Wilt's physicality was off the charts. There's no one playing today that compares to him. No, not even your vaunted Dwight Howard. Compared to Howard Wilt was bigger, faster, stronger, could jump higher, etc.

And don't forget.....bringing Wilt forward in time 40-50 years he gets all the benefits that money and technology have added to the game. That makes him even better.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 08:57 AM

You know, why do you find it necessary to make a trolling comment like this? Why not add to the discussion rather than take away from it.

A good backup to Noah?!?! Well let me see if I can explain something to you. Any of us "older folks" posting here that saw Wilt play and claim that he would be dominant today.....well, there are reasons for that.

1.Wilt was extremely well grounded in the fundamentals.....comparable to Duncan.

2.Wilt had a high basketball IQ.....once again Duncan comes to mind.

3.Wilt's physicality was off the charts. There's no one playing today that compares to him. No, not even your vaunted Dwight Howard. Compared to Howard Wilt was bigger, faster, stronger, could jump higher, etc.

And don't forget.....bringing Wilt forward in time 40-50 years he gets all the benefits that money and technology have added to the game. That makes him even better.

To add to the above...take a look at a peak David Robinson, who was an inch shorter than Wilt, and about 50 lbs lighter than a peak Wilt. Robinson was a well built athlete, but I can guarantee you that he would have been DWARFED by a prime Wilt. Hell, Chamberlain also made the 7-2 Gilmore look like a scrawny wimp in their first encounter.

And, as you pointed out, Chamberlain was over 7-1, and would have been measured at close to 7-3 in today's NBA. He played anywhere from 275 to well over 300 lbs. He had an enormous 7-8 wingspan. He was a college High Jump champion (part-time, and with poor technique), who also particpated in the long jump, triple jump, and was a member of KU's 4x100 team. And, in his 14 years in the league, he was, by far-and-away, the strongest man in the league. And, as anyone can see by just going thru this topic, he was a MASSIVE man. And no matter what his maximum bench press really was, many consider him the strongest man to have EVER played in the NBA.

Combine all of that with these kind of skills...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4WZXiaDzyc

and ANYONE can plainly see that the man would have DOMINATED in TODAY's NBA.

Helix

03-25-2012, 09:06 AM

He was at his defensive peak in the mid-60's. I have posted the numbers many times, but in almost every one of his 29 playoff series, he DRAMATICALLY reduced his opposing center's FG%'s. In fact, in those 29 playoff series, he only surrendered a 50% or better FG% in TWO.

One of them was against multiple all-star Zelmo Beaty in the '64 playoffs. Beaty shot .521 against Wilt, while scoring 14.3 ppg along with 9.5 rpg. Meanwhile, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .559 against him.

The other came against Jerry Lucas in the '72 Finals. Granted, Lucas was a PF playing out of position, but many here are probably not aware of the fact that Lucas had tremendous range. The term "Lucas Layup" was coined after his 25+ ft range. In the '72 Finals, Lucas shot an even .500 against Wilt. However, in the first half of the first game, he was hitting shots from the Santa Monica Freeway, and at halftime, he had gone 9-11. A 35 year old Wilt managed to defend Lucas, and STILL cover the paint, the remainder of that series. Lucas went 37-81 the rest of the series, or .456.

You can go right down the list. In one series against Red Kerr, Chamberlain held him down from his season average of .443 shooting down to .376, and in the other it went from .392 to .296 against Wilt. Russell shot .457 in the '62 regular season, and in the ECF's against Wilt, .420. In the '67 regular season, Russell shot .454. In the '67 ECF's, and against Wilt... .358. Thurmond shot .437 in the '67 regular season, and in the Finals, and against Wilt... .343. Bellamy shot .541 in the '68 regular season, and only .421 against Wilt in the playoffs.

And there were other's in which we don't have verifiable FG%'s, but in which we could take an solid educated guess. For instance, Russell shot .433 in the '64 regular season, but only .356 in his ten post-season games, five of which were against Wilt.

And I have read some here who claim that Wilt was not a good defensive player early in his career. Well, in his ROOKIE season, in 59-60, he faced Russell in 11 regular season H2H's. And we have an article which covered their first ten H2H's. Keep in mind that Russell shot his career high that season, going .467 overall (and in a league that shot .410). In those ten H2H games, Wilt held Russell to .398 shooting.

And, how about Wilt's first encounter against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy? Bellamy came into that came averaging over 30 ppg. At the opening center jump, Chamberlain told Bellamy that he would he )Bellamy) would not score a point in the game. Sure enough, in the first half, Wilt held Bellamy scoreless, and blocked numerous shots. As they were getting ready for the seond half tip-off, a shell-shocked Bellamy was relieved to hear Wilt tell him that he would "let him play" the rest of the game. BTW, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy in that first encounter, 52-14.

Back to a PRIME Wilt, and his defense. Take a look at the single season rankings in terms of Defensive Win Shares...aside from Russell, the highest achieved were by Chamberlain, and they came in the mid-60's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

And to be honest, Wilt was probably at his peak in '67, even though in that season, it was well down the list from his '68 and '64 seasons, in which he had the 7th and 8th best seasons of all-time. Once again, in the playoffs in '67, he completely shut down Russell (.358), and Thurmond (.343.)

My point was......imagine what his defense could have been like in 67-68 had he concentrated on it like he did 71-73.

Also, pertaining to Russell.....one of these days we're gonna get together (email , pm, which I can't access for some reason, or somehow) and I'm gonna enlighten you on some things about Russell that I think will make you see him a bit differently.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 09:14 AM

My point was......imagine what his defense could have been like in 67-68 had he concentrated on it like he did 71-73.

Also, pertaining to Russell.....one of these days we're gonna get together (email , pm, which I can't access for some reason, or somehow) and I'm gonna enlighten you on some things about Russell that I think will make you see him a bit differently.

I have completely changed my mind on Russell's offense in the last few years. But, to clarify, I WATCHED MANY of the Russell-Wilt H2H's live in the 60's, and Chamberlain was such a much more skilled offensive player, and because of that, for years I just accepted the scoring and FG%'s of Russell as being average, at best.

However, after researching much more of Russell's career, including the video footage which has come out in the last few years, and I was actually stunned by just how good an offensive player he really was. Granted, he didn't have exceptional range, but he was very quick, and had quality post moves.

AND, what really caught my eye, was that the Celtic offense RAN THRU RUSSELL. He was a marvelous passer.

BTW, you are probably aware of these, but perhaps there are some here who aren't...

Russell had close out games in the Finals, of 30-38, and a game seven OT win of 30-40. He also had a Finals in '65 in which he averaged 18 ppg, 29 rpg, and shot a mind-boggling .702 from the floor. And in the following season's Finals, he LED Boston in scoring at 23.6 ppg.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 10:12 AM

Wilt's defensive excellence during his LA years, gives him a decent case for the honor of greatest defender of all time.

As great a defensive player as Wilt was, the overwhelming evidence points to Russell's defensive impact as the greatest ever. I would say that a prime Chamberlain, in the mid-to-late 60's, was close to a prime Russell. Still, ThaRegul8r has provided articles, and statistical analysis, that support Russell as the greatest ever.

From the limited research that we do have, though, it would appear that Chamberlain was the game's greatest shot-blocker. Something that raised my eyebrows was the information that Psileas was able to produce on Wilt's LAST two seasons. In some 50 known games in each of those seasons, Chamberlain averaged 7-8 bpg in '72, and 5-6 bpg in '73.

Why is that so significant? Because in the very next season, the NBA started officially recording blocked shots, and Nate Thurmond, who many consider one of the game's greatest defensive players and shot-blockers, averaged 2.9 bpg. And Kareem, who would win three blocked shot titles, averaged 3.5 bpg. In fact, Kareem's high season was 4.1 bpg (and he only had one other season at 4.0 bpg.)

We also have KNOWN games in which Chamberlain recorded 20+ blocks. In one, he had a double-triple-double game of 34 points, 33 rebounds, and 20 blocks. And in a nationally televised game in the 1968, Chamberlain recorded 23 blocks. Harvey Pollack also had Chamberlain with one game in the early 60's of 25. And, there are NUMEROUS other games in which Chamberlain had 15+ blocks in a game.

PTB Fan

03-25-2012, 12:06 PM

Although he wasn't concentrating solely on defense in 67 and 68, his defense those years was just about as good. He was a few years younger and hadn't yet torn up his knee.

Yeah. I've got few others above him which is why i said his case is decent.

winnnaz

03-25-2012, 12:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqQsiwZ1w-c
For JLauber

PTB Fan

03-25-2012, 12:07 PM

As great a defensive player as Wilt was, the overwhelming evidence points to Russell's defensive impact as the greatest ever. I would say that a prime Chamberlain, in the mid-to-late 60's, was close to a prime Russell. Still, ThaRegul8r has provided articles, and statistical analysis, that support Russell as the greatest ever.

From the limited research that we do have, though, it would appear that Chamberlain was the game's greatest shot-blocker. Something that raised my eyebrows was the information that Psileas was able to produce on Wilt's LAST two seasons. In some 50 known games in each of those seasons, Chamberlain averaged 7-8 bpg in '72, and 5-6 bpg in '73.

Why is that so significant? Because in the very next season, the NBA started officially recording blocked shots, and Nate Thurmond, who many consider one of the game's greatest defensive players and shot-blockers, averaged 2.9 bpg. And Kareem, who would win three blocked shot titles, averaged 3.5 bpg. In fact, Kareem's high season was 4.1 bpg (and he only had one other season at 4.0 bpg.)

We also have KNOWN games in which Chamberlain recorded 20+ blocks. In one, he had a double-triple-double game of 34 points, 33 rebounds, and 20 blocks. And in a nationally televised game in the 1968, Chamberlain recorded 23 blocks. Harvey Pollack also had Chamberlain with one game in the early 60's of 25. And, there are NUMEROUS other games in which Chamberlain had 15+ blocks in a game.

I personally have few players above Wilt in terms of D but Wilt's case is decent enough to get him in the debate. That's all i wanted to say.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 12:11 PM

I personally have few players above Wilt in terms of D but Wilt's case is decent enough to get him in the debate. That's all i wanted to say.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I can only see Russell having a greater case. IMHO, Wilt is close behind. Then there is a pretty good drop off after that. I won't go into a long rant bashing Hakeem's defense, but let me just say, there is a LOT of evidence to suggest that, while he was among the better defensive players of all-time, he has no case as being anywhere near the top. Even in the existing statistical ratings that we do have, he is nowhere near the best.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 12:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqQsiwZ1w-c
For JLauber

I'll take the 71-72 Lakers and the 66-67 Sixers.

BlackJoker23

03-25-2012, 12:18 PM

He could be good backup to Noah. In this highlight he seems as good as Omer Asik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3My4MHr51c
very sensible post. u may be giving wilt too much credit tho. i dont think he's as good as asik

jlauber

03-25-2012, 12:20 PM

very sensible post. u may be giving wilt too much credit tho. i dont think he's as good as asik

There are a couple of posters who are close (and they may be one in the same), but this idiot is the most moronic poster on this forum.

BlackJoker23

03-25-2012, 12:23 PM

There are a couple of posters who are close (and they may be one in the same), but this idiot is the most moronic poster on this forum.
no that would your dumb and extremely retarded ass. all fukktards in the world are proud since u carry on their legacy you insecure b1tch

jlauber

03-25-2012, 12:25 PM

no that would your dumb and extremely retarded ass. all fukktards in the world are proud since u carry on their legacy you insecure b1tch

If the above post doesn't prove my previous post, then I don't know what else can.

BlackJoker23

03-25-2012, 12:26 PM

If the post doesn't prove my previous post, then I don't know what else can.
if you cant admit you are a fukktard, were bullied and abused in school and dropped on your head too many times as a child, i dont what to say.

D-Wade316

03-25-2012, 12:28 PM

no that would your dumb and extremely retarded ass. all fukktards in the world are proud since u carry on their legacy you insecure b1tch
:coleman:

D-Wade316

03-25-2012, 12:29 PM

if you cant admit you are a fukktard, were bullied and abused in school and dropped on your head too many times as a child, i dont what to say.
:oldlol:

Helix

03-25-2012, 01:02 PM

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I can only see Russell having a greater case. IMHO, Wilt is close behind. Then there is a pretty good drop off after that. I won't go into a long rant bashing Hakeem's defense, but let me just say, there is a LOT of evidence to suggest that, while he was among the better defensive players of all-time, he has no case as being anywhere near the top. Even in the existing statistical ratings that we do have, he is nowhere near the best.

I would disagree if you're leaving out Thurmond. He belongs right there with Chamberlain and Russell. After those three is the drop off.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 03:07 PM

I would disagree if you're leaving out Thurmond. He belongs right there with Chamberlain and Russell. After those three is the drop off.

Nate's #3 on my all-time list. And no one played Kareem, or Wilt, better. In fact, he has a case as the greatest one-on-one defender of all-time. However, if you take a close look at his overall defensive impact, he was really not close to either Russell or Wilt.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

Now, granted that second stat, defensive rating, came after his prime (and after Russell and Wilt had retired), so in his defense, he was actually above average even after his prime.

Still, IMHO, no one reduced Kareem to such horrid levels in all of Kareem's H2H's. Even more remarkably, Nate faced Kareem in 50+ H2H games, and most about half came when Nate was on the decline...and he STILL held Kareem to just awful scoring and shooting. I'm sure most here are aware by now, but Kareem's HIGH game against Thurmond was only 34 points. In fact, Kareem seldom he even scored 30 against Nate. And Kareem had just AWFUL FG%'s against Thurmond. In three straight post-seasons, and in Kareem's statistical prime, Abdul-Jabbar shot .486, .405, and .428. And if you were to break down their entire career H2H's, I suspect that Kareem would be well below .450 overall.

And, while a PRIME Chamberlain was capable of multiple 50 point games against Russell (and a high of 62), his high against Thurmond was "only" 45. However, a PRIME Chamberlain only faced Thurmond in a dozen games in Wilt's "scoring" seasons, and in 11 straight games, from their last meeting in '65, thru their first H2H in '67, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg against Thurmond, including games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and that 45 point explosion.

I would have my list something like this...

1. Russell
2. Wilt

3. Thurmond

And then the discussion for #4 would start here.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 03:33 PM

Of the great defensive centers, ...

1. Russell
2. Wilt

3. Thurmond

4. Hakeem
5. Kareem (in the first half of his career.)

6. Howard
7. Wallace
8. Duncan (I know... PF or C?)
9. Mutombo
10. Ewing
11. Robinson
12. Hayes (although he mainly a forward later in his career)
13. Gilmore
14. Lanier
15. Cowens

A prime Walton would be close to Hakeem and Kareem BTW.

-23-

03-25-2012, 04:03 PM

rodman91

03-25-2012, 04:17 PM

Howard is 6th best defensive center of all time?

PTB Fan

03-25-2012, 04:39 PM

Russell, Hakeem, Nate, Duncan, Wilt, Mutombo are IMO guys who have great cases for GOAT defender in that order. And yes, i consider Duncan a C on defense. Not overall though.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:09 PM

You think howard is a better defensive player than Ewing? I ain't a georgetown fanboy but he anchored one of the most tenacious defenses in the 90's.

Not arguing with you, except that Howard will probably finish with the most DPOY's since the award existed. Of course, you can argue that this era's opposing centers have been less than stellar, to say the least.

Some might argue Wallace, too. Or Mutombo.

I don't know...what is your opinion?

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:10 PM

Howard is 6th best defensive center of all time?

I'm game...what you got?

Deuce Bigalow

03-25-2012, 05:15 PM

I'll take the 71-72 Lakers and the 66-67 Sixers.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bulls in 4

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:15 PM

Russell, Hakeem, Nate, Duncan, Wilt, Mutombo are IMO guys who have great cases for GOAT defender in that order. And yes, i consider Duncan a C on defense. Not overall though.

I can't see any of those guys not only shutting down their opposing centers, but entire opposing offenses, like Russell and Wilt.

There was YouTube footage of Chamberlain's defense and shot-blocking a couple of years, but it has since been removed. But, just in the course of a few moments, against Kareem's Bucks, he blocked a shot by Kareem, then Dandridge, and then a driving Oscar.

I have provided his numbers just against his opposing centers in the playoffs, many of whom he held to some 10% less than their regular season numbers, and only two, out of 29, that shot over 50% in a series against him. But, not only that, he was anchoring the middle like only Russell could, as well. Once again, the majority of the known evidence points to Wilt being the greatest shot-blocker of all-time.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:22 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bulls in 4

Well, we know that there is at least one position in which the '67 Sixers and '72 Lakers would have a HUGE advantage, don't we?

Deuce Bigalow

03-25-2012, 05:24 PM

Well, we know that there is at least one position in which the '67 Sixers and '72 Lakers would have a HUGE advantage, don't we?
Just like in '60-'73, but 2 rings

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:26 PM

Just like in '60-'73, but 2 rings

Ah, but when he had talented, and HEALTHY rosters, like in '67 and '72...68-13 and 69-13 teams that just demolished the league en route to overwhelming titles.

Deuce Bigalow

03-25-2012, 05:30 PM

Ah, but when he had talented, and HEALTHY rosters, like in '67 and '72...68-13 and 69-13 teams that just demolished the league en route to overwhelming titles.
also '69 and '70 when his sub 40% freethrow shooting in the series cost him 2 rings.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:30 PM

Just like in '60-'73, but 2 rings

Of course, as you have pointed out before, had Wilt not gone 1-11 from the line in game seven of the '70 Finals, in a blowout loss,...he would have won 3-4 more rings.

Deuce Bigalow

03-25-2012, 05:32 PM

Of course, as you have pointed out before, had Wilt not gone 1-11 from the line in game seven of the '70 Finals, in a blowout loss,...he would have won 3-4 more rings.
not just game 7. the whole series he was terrible in '69 and '70
game 1,2,3,4,5,6
In close games freethrows count

But hey it's always his teammates fault

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:39 PM

not just game 7. the whole series he was terrible in '69 and '70
game 1,2,3,4,5,6
In close games freethrows count

But hey it's always his teammates fault

O course, only in your mind, do FGAs NOT count. Look up Chamberlain's teammates shooting from the floor in those series.

For instance, in game three of the '69 Finals, BOTH Baylor and West shot a combined 1-14 from the field in the 4th period, in a six point loss. Or in game four, when Baylor not only shot 2-14 from the field, he also contributed a 1-6 performance from the line...in a ONE point loss. And, how about this...in that game seven, TWO POINT loss, Chamberlain shot .875 from the field...and his teammates collectively shot .360 (and Baylor went 8-22 in that game.) In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find a so-called all-time great, who had a WORSE series, than what Baylor had in '69. He was simply AWFUL.

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:40 PM

But, I digress. I have to learn to ignore these worthless "debates" with a mindless idiot.

Deuce Bigalow

03-25-2012, 05:43 PM

O course, only in your mind, do FGAs NOT count. Look up Chamberlain's teammates shooting from the floor in those series.

For instance, in game three of the '69 Finals, BOTH Baylor and West shot a combined 1-14 from the field in the 4th period, in a six point loss. Or in game four, when Baylor not only shot 2-14 from the field, he also contributed a 1-6 performance from the line...in a ONE point loss. And, how about this...in that game seven, TWO POINT loss, Chamberlain shot .875 from the field...and his teammates collectively shot .360 (and Baylor went 8-22 in that game.) In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find a so-called all-time great, who had a WORSE series, than what Baylor had in '69. He was simply AWFUL.
West in game 7: 42 pts, 13 reb, 12 ast
Wilt in game 7: 4-13 from the freethrow line

Lost by 2

jlauber

03-25-2012, 05:51 PM

West in game 7: 42 pts, 13 reb, 12 ast
Wilt in game 7: 4-13 from the freethrow line

Lost by 2

Perfect example...if West could have scored just three more points, LA would have won that game, and the series. What a "choker." Clearly, it was West who cost LA that title.

Deuce Bigalow

03-25-2012, 05:53 PM

Perfect example...if West could have scored just three more points, LA would have won that game, and the series. What a "choker." Clearly, it was West who cost LA that title.
nope, West did everything. Wilt couldn't even make half his freethrows :facepalm
pathetic, and you blame it on his teammates, even more pathetic :facepalm :facepalm

-23-

03-25-2012, 06:20 PM

Not arguing with you, except that Howard will probably finish with the most DPOY's since the award existed. Of course, you can argue that this era's opposing centers have been less than stellar, to say the least.

Some might argue Wallace, too. Or Mutombo.

I don't know...what is your opinion?

The game is different now, it would be hard to compare Howard to past centers since he pretty much has the next few DPOY locked.

My list for centers are:

1. Russell
2. Thurmond
3. Hakeem
4. Wilt
5. KAJ
6. Ewing
7. Mutombo
8. Robinson/ T Duncan
9. Wallace/ Dwight

jongib369

09-30-2014, 04:47 PM

:applause:

ArbitraryWater

09-30-2014, 06:11 PM

Perfect example...if West could have scored just three more points, LA would have won that game, and the series. What a "choker." Clearly, it was West who cost LA that title.

lmfao :facepalm

jongib369

09-30-2014, 06:23 PM

lmfao :facepalm
Not sure what's more transparent, Supermans disguise as Clark Kent or Jlaubers as LAZERUSS

LAZERUSS

09-30-2014, 10:45 PM

The game is different now, it would be hard to compare Howard to past centers since he pretty much has the next few DPOY locked.

My list for centers are:

1. Russell
2. Thurmond
3. Hakeem
4. Wilt
5. KAJ
6. Ewing
7. Mutombo
8. Robinson/ T Duncan
9. Wallace/ Dwight

Obviously, you are probably not aware of the fact that Wilt likely reduced his opposing HOF teams to the lowest FG%'s of their careers, and massively outshot all of them from the floor.

Or that Chamberlain has the two highest "non-Russell" DWS seasons in NBA history (and his '67 season, in which he dominated both offensively and defensively at his peak, was not one of them.)

Hakeem was routinely getting shelled by an OLD Kareem, Shaq, and even Robinson.

Chamberlain BADLY outplayed BOTH Thurmond and Russell. He held Thurmond to a .360 FG% in their CAREER H2H's, and Russell to a .382 FG% in their 143 CAREER H2H's. And outshot both of them by staggering margins.

He held a PEAK Kareem to a .464 FG% in their 28 CAREER H2H's, including a .434 FG% in their LAST TEN STRAIGHT games.

He in their known H2H's, he held Bellamy to over 10% BELOW his normal FG%'s.

In his LAST season, and covering six H2H's, he held a PRIME Lanier to a .374 FG%.

DatAsh

09-30-2014, 11:03 PM

Obviously, you are probably not aware of the fact that Wilt likely reduced his opposing HOF teams to the lowest FG%'s of their careers, and massively outshot all of them from the floor.

Or that Chamberlain has the two highest "non-Russell" DWS seasons in NBA history (and his '67 season, in which he dominated both offensively and defensively at his peak, was not one of them.)

Hakeem was routinely getting shelled by an OLD Kareem, Shaq, and even Robinson.

Chamberlain BADLY outplayed BOTH Thurmond and Russell. He held Thurmond to a .360 FG% in their CAREER H2H's, and Russell to a .382 FG% in their 143 CAREER H2H's. And outshot both of them by staggering margins.

He held a PEAK Kareem to a .464 FG% in their 28 CAREER H2H's, including a .434 FG% in their LAST TEN STRAIGHT games.

He in their known H2H's, he held Bellamy to over 10% BELOW his normal FG%'s.

In his LAST season, and covering six H2H's, he held a PRIME Lanier to a .374 FG%.

He has Wilt ranked 4th all time. That seems pretty reasonable :confusedshrug:

I mean, you could argue him over Thurmond and Olajuwon(I wouldn't), but there's no need to attack the guy for having an opinion that's pretty down to earth.

LAZERUSS

09-30-2014, 11:55 PM

He has Wilt ranked 4th all time. That seems pretty reasonable :confusedshrug:

I mean, you could argue him over Thurmond and Olajuwon(I wouldn't), but there's no need to attack the guy for having an opinion that's pretty down to earth.

You and I both know he has an anti-Wilt agenda.

And the facts are the facts. With the information we now have available, Chamberlain was not only DRAMATICALLY reducing his opposing HOF centers to just AWFUL FG%'s, he was CLEARLY the greatest "rim-protector" in NBA history, as well.

We know that a 36 year old Chamberlain averaged 5.4 bpg in his LAST season, and quite likely considerably more in his 17 post-season games. And we also KNOW that a PEAK Kareem averaged 3.5 bpg (and Thurmond was at 2.9 bpg BTW) the very next season.

Furthermore, the known research that is available has Wilt as the game's greatest shot-blocker, and by a huge margin. And even in his known H2H's with Russell, he just overwhelmed him in blocked shots.

I can see an argument for Russell, based on his TEAM's defensive numbers, but even then, Russell played with KC Jones, Satch Sanders, and John Havlicek, all three of whom were regarded as ELITE defenders in the decade of the 60's. Wilt played with a prime West for two seasons, and that was it as far as exceptional defensive teammates.

In fact, I would argue that a mid-60's Wilt was the equal of Russell, and past him up and pulled away each season after that.

DatAsh

10-01-2014, 12:20 AM

You and I both know he has an anti-Wilt agenda.

I don't recognize the name, then again I don't post here very often.

Wilt played with a prime West for two seasons, and that was it as far as exceptional defensive teammates.

Wilt had quite a few teammates who were great defensively. You're definitely overlooking several key players if you think West was the only good defender Wilt played with; he wasn't even the best. Look at those mid to late 60's teams. His teammates were every bit as good as Russell's on both ends of the floor.

In fact, I would argue that a mid-60's Wilt was the equal of Russell, and past him up and pulled away each season after that.

In my opinion 67' Wilt was every bit the defender that 67' Russell was; 68' Wilt was a better defender than 68' Russell, and he was always considerably better offensively.

LAZERUSS

10-01-2014, 12:29 AM

I don't recognize the name, then again I don't post here very often.

Wilt had quite a few teammates who were great defensively. You're definitely overlooking several key players if you think West was the only good defender Wilt played with; he wasn't even the best. Look at those mid to late 60's teams. His teammates were every bit as good as Russell's on both ends of the floor.

In my opinion 67' Wilt was every bit the defender that 67' Russell was; 68' Wilt was a better defender than 68' Russell, and he was always considerably better offensively.

Defensively, no, Wilt's mid-60's teams were not nearly as good as Russell's.

I know DWS is an inexact ranking, but it is pretty much all we have in the 60's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_top_10.html

Russell was SURROUNDED by Top-10 defensive teammates. Look at his '65 team, four of the top-5, and six of the top-8. Year-after-year he was playing with stacked defensive players.

And unfortunately, these awards didn't begin until the 68-69 season, but even here, Russell had better defensive teammates:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_defense.html

I would agree that Wilt had better offensive teammates on his '66 thru '68 Sixer teams, but even then, Russell's teammates completely shut down Chamberlain's in the '66 EDF's (holding them to a collective .352 FG%), and of course, in the '68 EDF's, Wilt and his teammates were just decimated with injuries. We did see what a peak Chamberlain playing with an equal roster as to what Russell had in '67, could do, though.

DatAsh

10-04-2014, 12:13 PM

Defensively, no, Wilt's mid-60's teams were not nearly as good as Russell's.

I know DWS is an inexact ranking, but it is pretty much all we have in the 60's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_top_10.html

Russell was SURROUNDED by Top-10 defensive teammates. Look at his '65 team, four of the top-5, and six of the top-8. Year-after-year he was playing with stacked defensive players.

And unfortunately, these awards didn't begin until the 68-69 season, but even here, Russell had better defensive teammates:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_defense.html

I would agree that Wilt had better offensive teammates on his '66 thru '68 Sixer teams, but even then, Russell's teammates completely shut down Chamberlain's in the '66 EDF's (holding them to a collective .352 FG%), and of course, in the '68 EDF's, Wilt and his teammates were just decimated with injuries. We did see what a peak Chamberlain playing with an equal roster as to what Russell had in '67, could do, though.

I wouldn't even count individual DWS as something we have, as they are of zero use. Cunnigham, Jones, and Greer were all very good defensive players. Jones and Greer were some of the best defenders in the league - up there with Hondo and Sanders - and probably better than anyone on the Celtics except for Tom Sanders(66-68), and they both played more mpg than Sanders(Greer considerably more).

They're teams were very similar offensively and defensively. I'd give Wilt's teammates the slight nod, but really the biggest difference was that Wilt himself was a better player than Russell.

La Frescobaldi

10-04-2014, 05:03 PM

I wouldn't even count individual DWS as something we have, as they are of zero use. Cunnigham, Jones, and Greer were all very good defensive players. Jones and Greer were some of the best defenders in the league - up there with Hondo and Sanders - and probably better than anyone on the Celtics except for Tom Sanders(66-68), and they both played more mpg than Sanders(Greer considerably more).

They're teams were very similar offensively and defensively. I'd give Wilt's teammates the slight nod, but really the biggest difference was that Wilt himself was a better player than Russell.
Wali Jones' defense as good as John Havlicek?

DatAsh

10-04-2014, 05:20 PM

Wali Jones' defense as good as John Havlicek?

Yep, from 66-68. Hondo wasn't yet the defensive beast he would eventually become.

La Frescobaldi

10-04-2014, 06:12 PM

Yep, from 66-68. Hondo wasn't yet the defensive beast he would eventually become.

we just have to disagree my friend.

DatAsh

10-04-2014, 06:44 PM

we just have to disagree my friend.

Looking back at my quotes, some of them are a few years later than I remember, so you may be right.

Anyway, I respect your opinion so I'd be curious to hear your side. I see a ton of praise for Havlicek's incredible defense, and overall I see him as arguably the best perimeter defender ever(same tier as guys like Pippen, Jordan, Moncrief), but in the mid 60's I'm seeing more praise for Sanders than I am for Havlicek.

I wouldn't sleep on Wali's defense though

[I]As far as the best defensive players in the league, Auerbach says the toughest centers to score against are former Kansas University star Wilt Chamberlain of the Philadelphia 76ers, Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics and Nate Thurmond of the San Francisco Warriors. Luke Jackson of the 76ers and Tom Sanders of Boston are rated as the best defensive forwards in the league. Lennie Wilkens of St. Louis and Wally Jones of the 76ers are Red