Why is Bird considered greater and ranked higher than Hakeem?

[StateOfMind12]

I actually don't see much of the argument for Bird to be honest.

Bird gets valued a lot for his peak play but Hakeem's peak was even better. Neither have much longevity but you could probably argue that Hakeem's longevity was slightly better and longer.

Hakeem made far more impact on the court than Bird did and Hakeem was the better finals and post-season performer than Bird was. Bird was the superior regular season performer but all-time greats mark their legacy in the playoffs, not the regular season.

Can someone explain to me why Bird is considered greater and is usually ranked higher than Hakeem in the all-time list?

I have both Hakeem and Shaq ranked above Bird in my all-time list.

[get these NETS]

I think Hakeem could have nailed higher goat status if he won a ring AFTER Jordan came back.

Goat as in player...not center...he's the best center that I saw from almost start to finish



Hakeem was a dominant player for a long time and then had alltime great winning peak of 2-3 years

Bird had a peak of about 7 years and was a dominant player for his career


they are about as goat in their respective positions as it gets

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I actually don't see much of the argument for Bird to be honest.

Bird gets valued a lot for his peak play but Hakeem's peak was even better. Neither have much longevity but you could probably argue that Hakeem's longevity was slightly better and longer.

Hakeem made far more impact on the court than Bird did and Hakeem was the better finals and post-season performer than Bird was. Bird was the superior regular season performer but all-time greats mark their legacy in the playoffs, not the regular season.

Can someone explain to me why Bird is considered greater and is usually ranked higher than Hakeem in the all-time list?

I have both Hakeem and Shaq ranked above Bird in my all-time list.
your all time list is greatly flawed.

[Bernie Nips]

I actually don't see much of the argument for Bird to be honest.

Bird gets valued a lot for his peak play but Hakeem's peak was even better. Neither have much longevity but you could probably argue that Hakeem's longevity was slightly better and longer.

Hakeem made far more impact on the court than Bird did and Hakeem was the better finals and post-season performer than Bird was. Bird was the superior regular season performer but all-time greats mark their legacy in the playoffs, not the regular season.

Can someone explain to me why Bird is considered greater and is usually ranked higher than Hakeem in the all-time list?

I have both Hakeem and Shaq ranked above Bird in my all-time list.

Just to refute your points:

- Hakeem's peak was not better.
- Bird had more impact on the court.
- Bird has 2 Finals MVPs, 3 rings and 5 Finals appearances to Hakeem's 2 FMVPs, 2 rings and 3 Finals appearances.

Bird was talked about as the greatest of all time when he was playing. Hakeem has never had that.

Bird above Hakeem on the GOAT list is one of the easier ones to explain.

[Whoah10115]

Because he plays basketball at a greater and higher level than Hakeem.



Seriously, this isn't a discussion. Larry Bird is Larry Bird.




And Shaq is not allowed at the party.

[StateOfMind12]

- Hakeem's peak was not better.
Unfortunately for you that is not true and what I said was correct.


- Bird had more impact on the court.
And this is based on......


- Bird has 2 Finals MVPs, 3 rings and 5 Finals appearances to Hakeem's 2 FMVPs, 2 rings and 3 Finals appearances.
I bet it helps playing on more stacked teams. It's not Hakeem's fault that his team was complete junk from 1987-1992. The Rockets wasted like 5-6 years of his career because of that. He didn't have the luxury to play on multiple all-stars every season like Bird did, yet he was still making heavy impact on the team.



Bird above Hakeem on the GOAT list is one of the easier ones to explain.
If it is so easy to explain then do it.

[iamgine]

I actually don't see much of the argument for Bird to be honest.

Bird gets valued a lot for his peak play but Hakeem's peak was even better. Neither have much longevity but you could probably argue that Hakeem's longevity was slightly better and longer.

Hakeem made far more impact on the court than Bird did and Hakeem was the better finals and post-season performer than Bird was. Bird was the superior regular season performer but all-time greats mark their legacy in the playoffs, not the regular season.

Can someone explain to me why Bird is considered greater and is usually ranked higher than Hakeem in the all-time list?

I have both Hakeem and Shaq ranked above Bird in my all-time list.
Cause it isn't always about who's better.

George Mikan made the list of top 50 players despite being worse than Hasheem Thabeet.

[DMAVS41]

Meh...same tier for me.

I personally think Bird was better.

[Bernie Nips]

Unfortunately for you that is not true and what I said was correct.

Wow, this argument is going well.


And this is based on......

The exact same things your OP is based on.


I bet it helps playing on more stacked teams. It's not Hakeem's fault that his team was complete junk from 1987-1992. The Rockets wasted like 5-6 years of his career because of that. He didn't have the luxury to play on multiple all-stars every season like Bird did, yet he was still making heavy impact on the team.

The flipside of that argument is Bird made his teams better. He made his teammates better.

Celtics before Larry Bird:

29-53

Celtics Larry Bird's first year:

61-21

Celtics Larry Bird's second year:

Championship


If it is so easy to explain then do it.

Just did.

[Whoah10115]

Bird's competition (The Lakers) was also better.



If it was a team with prime Hakeem and prime Glyde in 85 and 87, Celtics win. And believe that Bird is the main reason why.



Larry Bird. Hakeem is not as good. His prime is not better. His peak is not better. Larry Bird hung with Magic and Hakeem is not as good as Magic.





NOOOOO.

[Tmuston Beltics]

Wow? Already 8 posts in this thread and no one mentioned that Bird is white? :biggums:

[1987_Lakers]

- Bird has 3 league MVPs
- Hakeem has 1 league MVP

- Bird won 3 titles during the NBA's most competitive era
- Hakeem won 2 titles during a much weaker era & no MJ.

- Bird is one of the NBA's saviors
- Hakeem is not

[StateOfMind12]

Cause it isn't always about who's better.

I understand that part but Bird's accomplishments, stats, and dominance is not so much superior to Hakeem's that it puts away the fact that Hakeem was the better player than Bird was in his peak.

You can and I might even argue that Hakeem had the greatest peak of all-time but he did not sustain that dominance for that long compared to the GOAT all-time candidates like MJ, Russell, KAJ, etc.

The problem is that Bird did not sustain his dominance for long either like Hakeem, and when Bird was dominant, he wasn't even more dominant than Hakeem was.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Here's what it comes down to.

Larry Bird won more than Hakeem did during the toughest era of basketball.

The 80s features more powerhouse teams than any other era. Yes it is true that Larry had a more prominent lineup than Hakeem did, but it was the culture of the league at the time. If you look at the Sixers,Pistons,Lakers they all had powerhouse lineups. The 90s was the era of NBA expansion and as a result featured weaker teams than any other era and less top heavy teams. Considering the two titles Hakeem did win were when Jordan was retired, and Magic/Larry left the game it makes them less impressive than Birds titles who he won by battling all-time great Lakers/Sixers teams. If Hakeem was able to win a title in a year in which the dominant player of his era Jordan actually full participated in then he would have a case over Bird.

Larry was one of the all-time great players to build around, he could do anything on the court. Great scorer, rebounder, GOAT playmaker at the forward position, and a true leader. Despite the Celtics making no additions other than Bird and LOSING their leading scorer HOFer Bob McAdoo the year before they improved to 61-21 in Birds ROOKIE YEAR after going 29-53 with the same exact roster and losing McAdoo who was their leading scorer. Astounding.

Hakeem was a talented scorer, but he didn't elevate his teammates play the way Bird did and I don't know if anyone did other than Magic. Most of those "great" teammates on Boston would be forgotten in History had Bird not been leading that team to titles during that decade.

[Carbine]

It's funny when these things come up and you hear people say "Bird was just better."

Yet if you ask those same people to explain why, it would be almost impossible to do if Hakeem is everything that he is portrait as these days.

Bird's impact on defense was light years behind Hakeem's. That's a pretty big part of basketball - not allowing the other team to score. Hakeem was the foundation you built that upon. Bird was not.

Offensively, pretty much everyone gives Hakeem the title of most impressive low post moves ever. He could give it to you however you wanted it - power, finesse, face up...whatever it was, he could do.

Low post scoring is very important. Probably the most important. Demanding a double from down there creates a scrambling defense, almost always resulting in a quality look on offense, even in the most adverse times. If you don't double, Hakeem would give you the business. Pretty simple.

Bird was a much better and creative passer. He was also a better shooter.

I think Bird is overall a better offensive player, because he himself could also post up, but really not anywhere near enough to off-set the gigantic difference on defense.

So, in theory, Hakeem has to be the choice to build around.

But I could see why Bird is deemed "greater," even if slightly, because of his resume.

[I.R.Beast]

I think Hakeem could have nailed higher goat status if he won a ring AFTER Jordan came back.

Goat as in player...not center...he's the best center that I saw from almost start to finish



Hakeem was a dominant player for a long time and then had alltime great winning peak of 2-3 years

Bird had a peak of about 7 years and was a dominant player for his career


they are about as goat in their respective positions as it gets

Thats dumb....Jordan aint won shit till the competition thinned out.


Bird and even in my top 10, Hakeem is over him.

[juju151111]

I have Hakeem and Shaq above Bird.

[RRR3]

Thats dumb....Jordan aint won shit till the competition thinned out.


Bird and even in my top 10, Hakeem is over him.
Who's your top 10 then?:lol

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

It's funny when these things come up and you hear people say "Bird was just better."

Yet if you ask those same people to explain why, it would be almost impossible to do if Hakeem is everything that he is portrait as these days.

Bird's impact on defense was light years behind Hakeem's. That's a pretty big part of basketball - not allowing the other team to score. Hakeem was the foundation you built that upon. Bird was not.

Offensively, pretty much everyone gives Hakeem the title of most impressive low post moves ever. He could give it to you however you wanted it - power, finesse, face up...whatever it was, he could do.

Low post scoring is very important. Probably the most important. Demanding a double from down there creates a scrambling defense, almost always resulting in a quality look on offense, even in the most adverse times. If you don't double, Hakeem would give you the business. Pretty simple.

Bird was a much better and creative passer. He was also a better shooter.

I think Bird is overall a better offensive player, because he himself could also post up, but really not anywhere near enough to off-set the gigantic difference on defense.

So, in theory, Hakeem has to be the choice to build around.

But I could see why Bird is deemed "greater," even if slightly, because of his resume.

Bird was a great defensive player too for his era. His hands were quick as lightning and could read the passing lanes better than maybe anyone in the history of the league next to Iverson. He wasn't quick on his feet, but he was crafty and the smartest player to ever play so it gave him other advantages. Hakeem was the typical huge 7 foot shot blocker so he makes more of an impact by default, but the gap isn't THAT far.

Offensively another edge to Bird is because he could make a play at will. It was easier for him to get a shot off. Hakeem was reliant on a teammate getting him the ball in position which is something that hurts bigman not named Dirk as go to scorers in certain moments.

And despite Hakeem being a center he only averaged 1 more rebound over the course of his career than Bird did. 11.1 to 10.0

[nba_55]

It s so funny reading these kind of threads. You have a bunch of posters acting like they watched the whole careers of Hakeem and Bird. They act like they know everything about them. In reality, they have only watch their highlights or 2-3 of their historic games. :coleman:

[juju151111]

Bird was a great defensive player too for his era. His hands were quick as lightning and could read the passing lanes better than maybe anyone in the history of the league next to Iverson. He wasn't quick on his feet, but he was crafty and the smartest player to ever play so it gave him other advantages. Hakeem was the typical huge 7 foot shot blocker so he makes more of an impact by default, but the gap isn't THAT far.

Offensively another edge to Bird is because he could make a play at will. It was easier for him to get a shot off. Hakeem was reliant on a teammate getting him the ball in position which is something that hurts bigman not named Dirk as go to scorers in certain moments.

And despite Hakeem being a center he only averaged 1 more rebound over the course of his career than Bird did. 11.1 to 10.0
Hakeem was top 10 in stls alltime. Hakeem old man years messed up his averages.

[eliteballer]

Bird was a great defensive player too for his era. His hands were quick as lightning and could read the passing lanes better than maybe anyone in the history of the league next to Iverson. He wasn't quick on his feet, but he was crafty and the smartest player to ever play so it gave him other advantages. Hakeem was the typical huge 7 foot shot blocker so he makes more of an impact by default, but the gap isn't THAT far.

Slap yourself. The nonsense some people will say:facepalm

[Carbine]

Slap yourself. The nonsense some people will say:facepalm

Yeah, that's just taking it to extreme levels of either homerism or just not knowing.

[Micku]

I actually don't see much of the argument for Bird to be honest.

Bird gets valued a lot for his peak play but Hakeem's peak was even better. Neither have much longevity but you could probably argue that Hakeem's longevity was slightly better and longer.

Hakeem made far more impact on the court than Bird did and Hakeem was the better finals and post-season performer than Bird was. Bird was the superior regular season performer but all-time greats mark their legacy in the playoffs, not the regular season.

Can someone explain to me why Bird is considered greater and is usually ranked higher than Hakeem in the all-time list?


Bird is more accomplish than Hakeem with his MVPs, finals appearance, teams that he beat, and the stats that he put up. Bird went to the Finals five times in his 13 year career. He was also out of commission for one year out of his 13 year career. He went to the finals four straight at one point, and suffered through injury. Only lost to the Lakers while the Hakeem only been to the finals three times out his 17 year career. Bird had a more successfully career than Hakeem, while playing on a high level.

If Hakeem was more successful, then I think it would be a stronger argument. Especially if the Rockets would've defeated the Jordan Bulls, which would've been the best team that he would ever face since the 1986 Celtics, while Hakeem putting up good numbers. But, he didn't. While it's not really a sting to Hakeem's play. Like last time the Rockets faced the Celtics in the finals Bird averaged:

24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 asts, 2.7 stls, on 48% FG

Hakeem averaged:

24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 1.8 asts, 2.3 stls, 3.2 blks, on 48% FG

And Kevin Mchale averaged:

25.8 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.7 asts, 2.5 blks, on 57% FG

Granted, Hakeem was only 23 years old at the time, check out his other finals games. It was pretty close to what he did in the 86 Finals. And if ISH existed back then, they would say Mchale>Bird>Hakeem.

Bird is the type of person who is a jack of all trades. He does everything. Rebound, pass, score, good with post up, and he is an underrated defender. He is a good post defender, and good team defender. And Bird's impact on the game was already felt with the Celtics since he turned a 29 win team to a 61 win team in his rookie season. That's a 32 game chance turn around.

Hakeem didn't do that. Jordan didn't do that. And look at the Celtics team without Bird for a season in the late 80s, and then a cripple Bird right after. Without Bird: the Celts was a 42 win team in the 88-89. With a cripple Bird they were a 52 win team.

Determining how successful you are is part of people's ranking. And it's also about how impressive they were when they played and winning their championship. With that said, you can probably take a lot of guys peaks and say they are equally important as the next person tho. But Bird is ranked higher than Hakeem because of the combination of his success rate and his level of play. Hakeem is not bad after, but Bird accomplished more. Like how Magic accomplished more than Bird. You can still argue about peak play, but most of the top 10 peak play could be interchangeable.

[iamgine]

I understand that part but Bird's accomplishments, stats, and dominance is not so much superior to Hakeem's that it puts away the fact that Hakeem was the better player than Bird was in his peak.

You can and I might even argue that Hakeem had the greatest peak of all-time but he did not sustain that dominance for that long compared to the GOAT all-time candidates like MJ, Russell, KAJ, etc.

The problem is that Bird did not sustain his dominance for long either like Hakeem, and when Bird was dominant, he wasn't even more dominant than Hakeem was.
Well we can't just put regular season into nothing. Fact is, David Robinson outmatched Hakeem for most of their regular season H2H. And where does David Robinson rank? Also, Hakeem don't have Bird's accomplishments/team accomplishment and Bird was always #1/2 in NBA for a long time. Can't say the same for Hakeem.

All time rank is always clouded by team accomplishment. I always say, put Hakeem or Robinson in 90's Bulls minus MJ, they'd have won close to 6 rings too or even more.

[Round Mound]

Bird was not a Better Individual player Hakeem had a Highe PER. Same with Barkley he was a Better Individual Player than Bird but Bird was a PLAYER THAT MADE OTHERS BETTER MORE THAN ANY PLAYER. Its a 5-5 Game so as a Team Player Bird was Better.

[Micku]

I understand that part but Bird's accomplishments, stats, and dominance is not so much superior to Hakeem's that it puts away the fact that Hakeem was the better player than Bird was in his peak.

You can and I might even argue that Hakeem had the greatest peak of all-time but he did not sustain that dominance for that long compared to the GOAT all-time candidates like MJ, Russell, KAJ, etc.

The problem is that Bird did not sustain his dominance for long either like Hakeem, and when Bird was dominant, he wasn't even more dominant than Hakeem was.

I think Bird was more dominant than Hakeem in his era. He won 3 straight MVPs, and he went to the finals four times in a row. He was getting arguments for being the GOAT player around that time. Injuries did the Celtics in though. In terms of individual play and not accomplishments, you could argue that Hakeem was better as a individual player in terms of defense and scoring. Bird was a pretty good scorer himself, and a good rebounder, but an ok man to man defender. He was a better post defender.

But it depends on what you mean by individual aspects. If you are talking just plainly on one on one skills, then passing, and rebounding to an extent probably won't count as much.

[StateOfMind12]

He won 3 straight MVPs,
Well MVPs is a subjective award. Many people have said and felt like Hakeem and/or MJ got robbed in the 1993 MVP voting by Barkley. The MVP has had even less credibility in the past decade.


and he went to the finals four times in a row.
He had a very talented and stacked team especially compared to Hakeem. Bird always played with multiple all-stars on his team while Hakeem didn't play with any other than Ralph Sampson (who had his career was derailed by injuries) before 1994.


He was getting arguments for being the GOAT player around that time.
I don't think this really matters.


He was a better post defender.
I hope this is a joke. Hakeem was far better than Bird at everything on defense.

Bird was more successful yes, but you also have to take into consideration why he was more successful. He was more successful because he played with a very stacked and good supporting cast. If you look at Bird's individual numbers in the playoffs specifically in the Finals, they aren't that good and they are clearly worse than Hakeem's.

Hakeem never had the luxuries that Bird did and we shouldn't fault Hakeem for that.

[iamgine]

Well MVPs is a subjective award. Many people have said and felt like Hakeem and/or MJ got robbed in the 1993 MVP voting by Barkley. The MVP has had even less credibility in the past decade.


He had a very talented and stacked team especially compared to Hakeem. Bird always played with multiple all-stars on his team while Hakeem didn't play with any other than Ralph Sampson (who had his career was derailed by injuries) before 1994.


I don't think this really matters.


I hope this is a joke. Hakeem was far better than Bird at everything on defense.

Bird was more successful yes, but you also have to take into consideration why he was more successful. He was more successful because he played with a very stacked and good supporting cast. If you look at Bird's individual numbers in the playoffs specifically in the Finals, they aren't that good and they are clearly worse than Hakeem's.

Hakeem never had the luxuries that Bird did and we shouldn't fault Hakeem for that.
But then, George Mikan had the luxuries of playing against a league of really bad basketball players. Dwight Howard never had that luxury. Should we put Dwight above Mikan then?

[Champ]

I understand that part but Bird's accomplishments, stats, and dominance is not so much superior to Hakeem's that it puts away the fact that Hakeem was the better player than Bird was in his peak.

You can and I might even argue that Hakeem had the greatest peak of all-time but he did not sustain that dominance for that long compared to the GOAT all-time candidates like MJ, Russell, KAJ, etc.

The problem is that Bird did not sustain his dominance for long either like Hakeem, and when Bird was dominant, he wasn't even more dominant than Hakeem was.

Bird was a dominant player for an 8 season run. That's not long enough for you?

[StateOfMind12]

But then, George Mikan had the luxuries of playing against a league of really bad basketball players. Dwight Howard never had that luxury. Should we put Dwight above Mikan then?
By luxury, I meant the fact that Bird had far superior talent around him and had far better coaching. Olajuwon did not have a good or an actual coach until Rudy T. stepped in 1992. He did have all-star caliber players until the Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

Don Chaney, the coach for Hakeem before 1992 preferred having Vernon Maxwell hoisting up shots oppose to Hakeem. You really think that coach knows what he is doing out there?

[iamgine]

By luxury, I meant the fact that Bird had far superior talent around him and had far better coaching. Olajuwon did not have a good or an actual coach until Rudy T. stepped in 1992. He did have all-star caliber players until the Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

Don Chaney, the coach for Hakeem before 1992 preferred having Vernon Maxwell hoisting up shots oppose to Hakeem. You really think that coach knows what he is doing out there?
Different luxury, same advantage.

[1987_Lakers]

By luxury, I meant the fact that Bird had far superior talent around him and had far better coaching. Olajuwon did not have a good or an actual coach until Rudy T. stepped in 1992. He did have all-star caliber players until the Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

Don Chaney, the coach for Hakeem before 1992 preferred having Vernon Maxwell hoisting up shots oppose to Hakeem. You really think that coach knows what he is doing out there?

Bird had alot talent around him, but so did the teams he was playing against in the postseason. Let's not act like Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came in the league he was coached by Bill Fitch, a HOFer, and he reached the Finals in his 2nd year as a player. Hakeem won with less talent around him, but keep in mind the competition he was going up against had EQUAL talent. You basically needed one superstar and a bunch of role players and you would of had a shot at the title during the mid 90's. It's a fact. Ewing's Knicks, Miller's Pacers, Hakeem's Rockets, D-Rob's Spurs. These were 55-60 win teams that lacked great talent, they would have gotten smoked during the mid-late 80's.

[Round Mound]

As i said before Individual Wise Hakeem was More Dominant Player so Charles > Also Bird=? as an Individual Players Yes but as a Team Player Bird is Probably the Best Ever. The way He Turned the Celtics Franchaise. Lets Remember that Kevin McHale was Not a Starter in 81 or 84.

Barkley was Robbed from the 1990 MVP (don`t bring me the Magic thing because he had GREAT SQUAD for those Wins, They Still Make the Play-Offs After He Leaves)

PER for 3 All Stars is Also Misleading.

[Micku]

Well MVPs is a subjective award. Many people have said and felt like Hakeem and/or MJ got robbed in the 1993 MVP voting by Barkley. The MVP has had even less credibility in the past decade.

It's a example of how dominant he was in his own era, and he was more accomplish than Hakeem. Of course you do have a point about MVP is subjective. Shaq should've gotten more.



He had a very talented and stacked team especially compared to Hakeem. Bird always played with multiple all-stars on his team while Hakeem didn't play with any other than Ralph Sampson (who had his career was derailed by injuries) before 1994.

Bird already proved that it wasn't just Mchale or Parish. Bird turned a 29 win team into the best record in the league with 61 wins in his rookie season. Besides, you couldn't win in the 80s without stacked teams. The Rockets did end up beating the Lakers 86, and the Lakers around that time was one the most talented teams.



I don't think this really matters.


I think conversation for GOAT matter a bit. It shows a level of how good you are. Jordan got conversations for GOAT at his first 3peat. People really thought that Bird was the GOAT player in the mid 80s. Fast forward, Bird stepped down quite a bit and he couldn't beat Magic's Lakers in the Finals, underperform in the playoffs, and injuries did him in.


I hope this is a joke. Hakeem was far better than Bird at everything on defense.


You totally missed my point. I was saying Bird was a good post defender, not that Bird was better than Hakeem. Hakeem was better than Magic at defending, but it doesn't really make him a better team player, and impact on the floor. I was saying how Bird was a jack of all trades. He could score, rebound, pass, and an average man to man defender, good post defender, and a good help defender.


Bird was more successful yes, but you also have to take into consideration why he was more successful. He was more successful because he played with a very stacked and good supporting cast. If you look at Bird's individual numbers in the playoffs specifically in the Finals, they aren't that good and they are clearly worse than Hakeem's.

I think it was half and half. I think Bird's rookie season and the absence of Bird showed how important it Bird was to the Celtics. In his rookie season, Bird turned a 29 win team around to the best record in the league with 61 wins. Without Bird they were a 42 win team in the 88-89. With an unhealthy Bird they were a 52 win team.

Your whole thread was about why Bird was considered greater, and that was why. Like Magic, it wasn't really about stats, not about how many points you put on the board. It was about what you did to make your team win. Bird all around game helped his team won and brought the Celtics to contenders throughtout the 80s.

In terms of playoffs, I think Bird didn't play as he should . There were some times he was injured, but that happens in the game. Hakeem had some good playoff series, but he was also out more in the first round than Bird was I think. Plus, Bird had more finals. If you really want to get literal on who played better in the Finals in terms of stats, Mchale>Bird and Hakeem to me. Is Mchale better than Hakeem and Bird?


Hakeem never had the luxuries that Bird did and we shouldn't fault Hakeem for that.

You can argue that every superstar in the 80s that was successful had stacked teams and good supporting cast. Moses Malone, Dr. J, Magic, Kareem, and etc. You can argue that the Hawks in the 88 had more talent and could beat the Rockets in 94 and possibly the Rockets in 95. The Hawks had Wilkins, Moses Malone, Doc Rivers. It was a different era where you had to be stacked to win.

Like in talent and teams in the 90s was different than talent in teams in the 80s.

Part of the reason why Hakeem is not considered better than Bird to some ppl is because he wasn't as successful. There are a lot of players who we ranked like that. And Bird probably had more impact than Hakeem because of his all around game as shown in the 80s.

[StateOfMind12]

Let's not act like Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came in the league he was coached by Bill Fitch, a HOFer, and he reached the Finals in his 2nd year as a player.
Hakeem didn't play with garbage but it looks and seems like garbage compared to the players Bird was playing with.

Hakeem was relatively successful in the beginning of his career when he had Bill Fitch as his coach and when Ralph Sampson was around. When Sampson started getting serious injuries and Fitch left, Hakeem and the Rockets had to deal with the dark ages for the next 4 seasons with Don Chaney as their coach.


Hakeem won with less talent around him, but keep in mind the competition he was going up against had EQUAL talent.
Well the Center position was at its strongest in the 90s. He completely dominated Ewing in 1994 and he dominated the two Centers that were voted on higher All-NBA teams than he did in 1995, Shaq and Robinson that season to win the championship back to back.

Both Bird and Hakeem's peaks were 3 years. Bird was '84-'86 while Hakeem was '93-'95. Both of them came out with two titles but I would say Hakeem was far better and dominant during those 3 years than Bird was.

[TheBigVeto]

Just because Hakeem is black doesn't mean he's better than Bird.

[Shepseskaf]

Right or wrong, both Magic and Bird have been pushed higher in the all-time rankings than their actual abilities would warrant because of being given credit for resurrecting the league.

Probably most of you weren't around before they debuted, but I can tell you that it was bad. NBA games simply weren't a priority for the networks, and there were no cable channels to broadcast "specialty" sports. You could mostly find games at weird hours, as many of them were not broadcast live.

The Magic-Bird duo changed all of that -- two all-time greats, one black, one white, both enjoying a high level of success immediately.... It was a marketers dream. Dictator Stern gets credit for turning the league around, but in truth if Magic and Bird hadn't come along, the league would not be what it is today.

Magic and Bird set the table, then MJ took it from there.

[JMT]

Because he plays basketball at a greater and higher level than Hakeem.



Thread should've stopped right here.

No offense to Hakeem. Bird played the game at a higher level than all but a couple players (none of whom was named Shaq).

Lifelong Sixers fan who hated him like poison. But the truth is the truth.

[millwad]

I wouldn't mind Hakeem over Bird at all, when people compare the two of them it often comes to who won the most, which is crazy unfair considering who Bird played with.

And one of Bird's rings came in '81, his teammates that year were;

Robert Parish (All-star that year and a HOF:er, top 50 ever)
Cedric Maxwell (Won the Finals MVP that year)
Tiny Archibald (All-star that year and HOF:er, top 50 ever)
Mchale (HOF:er but wasn't in his prime)

And they faced fairly weak competition, first a 45-37 Bulls team, then they won against a good Philly team but Bird still had more talent around him than what Julius had and in the finals they faced a Houston Rocket team (pre Akeem) who had a freaking loosing record that season.

The rest of Birds rings came when he had prime prime McHale, prime Parish, HOF:er Dennis Johnson and great role players like Ainge and Maxwell next to him. It's pretty remarkable that people actually compare the amount of rings Bird won with the amount of rings Hakeem won.

Hakeem won his rings without any all-stars (Clyde wasn't on the all-star team in '95) and they had huge gaps in their roster and he never had the luxury to be able to win without being the FMVP..

If Hakeem would have had all-time greats like McHale, Parish and Johnson next to him among many other all-stars he'd be ranked higher as well..

[millwad]

Bird had alot talent around him, but so did the teams he was playing against in the postseason. Let's not act like Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came in the league he was coached by Bill Fitch, a HOFer, and he reached the Finals in his 2nd year as a player. Hakeem won with less talent around him, but keep in mind the competition he was going up against had EQUAL talent. You basically needed one superstar and a bunch of role players and you would of had a shot at the title during the mid 90's. It's a fact. Ewing's Knicks, Miller's Pacers, Hakeem's Rockets, D-Rob's Spurs. These were 55-60 win teams that lacked great talent, they would have gotten smoked during the mid-late 80's.

Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came to the league he was drafted by a team who won 29 games prior to his arrival. After Hakeem's arrival they were suddenly a 48 win team and then a 51 win team.

The same Hakeem in his 2nd year as a pro lead his team to the finals against Bird and the Celtics. That same year Hakeem in his 2nd year as a pro abused your beloved Lakers in the playoffs and was unstoppable and lead his Rocket team to an easy 4-1 win in the series against the Lakers.

And lets not forget that the '86 Rockets didn't even have a true point guard, John Lucas went down and they had to put the forward Reid at the point guard spot. Sure, they were a talented team but not as talented as the '86 Lakers and Hakeem in '86 had no where close to the amount of talent around him compared to Bird.

And that was a prime Bird vs a 23 year old Hakeem and still Hakeem lead his Rocket team all the way to game 6 vs one of the best teams of all-time. Bird in that series had McHale who dominated like crazy and averaged 25 points per game in that series and DJ averaged 17 points, 6 rebounds and 5 assists per game in that series. And he still had Parish by his side along with great role players like Ainge and Walton..

Olajuwon as a 2nd year pro competed against prime Bird at his best with a worse team... I have no doubt in my mind that prime Hakeem was on the same level as Bird.

[JMT]

Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came to the league he was drafted by a team who won 29 games prior to his arrival. After Hakeem's arrival they were suddenly a 48 win team and then a 51 win team.

.

Hakeem stepped into the league playing next to Ralph Sampson. They were as feared a young front court as the league has seen since.

[gengiskhan]

Hakeem: 1 MVP
Bird: 3 MVPs

Hakeem: 0 Back-2-Back MVPs
Bird: 3 Back-2-back-2-back MVPs

Hakeem: 2 Rings
Bird: 3 Rings

Hakeem: Lost ROY honors to GOAT
Bird: Beat GOAT for ROY honors.

Hakeem: 1 DPOY
Bird: 0 DPOY

Hakeem: Rings overrated because of GOATs absense in 1994 & 1995.
Bird: Beat GOAT once in the Final & Other 2 Won in GOAT Magics prime.

Bird: more clutch. more impact player without ball
Hakeem: all time great center no doubt.

Bird > Hakeem.

GOAT list

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Russell

Bird Top 5 easily
Hakeem Top 6 as highest GOAT slot.

[Jotaro Durant]

kaj
wilt
mj
magic
bird
shaq
bryant
olajuwon
duncan
oscar

[ralph_i_el]

Bird was not a Better Individual player Hakeem had a Highe PER. Same with Barkley he was a Better Individual Player than Bird but Bird was a PLAYER THAT MADE OTHERS BETTER MORE THAN ANY PLAYER. Its a 5-5 Game so as a Team Player Bird was Better.

on open court they were talking about how hakeem was an amazing teammate especially for covering for teammates in PnR. Just a thought

[ballinhun8]

I actually don't see much of the argument for Bird to be honest.



That's cuz you don't know basketball.

[StateOfMind12]

That's cuz you don't know basketball.
I'll be sure to take that seriously from such a quality poster such as yourself :rolleyes:

/sarcasm.


Right or wrong, both Magic and Bird have been pushed higher in the all-time rankings than their actual abilities would warrant because of being given credit for resurrecting the league.

Which is bogus and unfair because you should be judged on your basketball abilities and accomplishments on what you did on the court, not off the court.

[millwad]

Hakeem: 1 MVP
Bird: 3 MVPs

Nash has 2 MVP's, guess he's better than Hakeem too.



Hakeem: 0 Back-2-Back MVPs
Bird: 3 Back-2-back-2-back MVPs


See above, and Hakeem definitely had a case for for the MVP in both '93 and '95.



Hakeem: 2 Rings
Bird: 3 Rings


Hakeem won with way less talented teams against 3 top 10 centers during his back-to-backs. Hakeem didn't even have an all-star by his side while winning (Drexler was not voted on the all-star team in '95).

Bird on the other side in '81 had the all-star Parish by his side and the all-star Tiny Archibald, both of them are in the HOF and in the top 50 list ever. And like that wasn't enough he had Cedric Maxwell who won the Finals MVP that year..

In '84 Bird won again with Parish and McHale, both of them were voted to the all-star team that year. As if that wasn't enough the HOF:er Dennis Johnson was still around.. So Bird won with 3 HOF:ers that year by his side.

In '86 his Celtic team won in game 6 against a Rocket team lead by the 2nd year pro Akeem Olajuwon. That year he had 4 HOF:ers by his side and 2 all-stars..

It's silly that you even mention the fact that he has one more ring than Hakeem.. :facepalm



Hakeem: Lost ROY honors to GOAT
Bird: Beat GOAT for ROY honors.


Bird would never have won the ROY if he would have had his first season in '85... That is just a stupid thing to write..



Hakeem: 1 DPOY
Bird: 0 DPOY


Hakeem won 2 DPOY's, not 1, educate yourself.



Hakeem: Rings overrated because of GOATs absense in 1994 & 1995.
Bird: Beat GOAT once in the Final & Other 2 Won in GOAT Magics prime.


Hakeem faced 3 top 10 centers during his back to back, 2 top 5 PF's and Magic is not GOAT, Jordan was. And Hakeem still had a winning record against Jordan. It's not like Jordan was unbeatable.



Bird: more clutch. more impact player without ball
Hakeem: all time great center no doubt.


More clutch? Prove it..

From 93-96 Hakeem faced elimination 10 times and he won 9 of those games and these are the stats he put up in those 10 games;

31/21/7/3/3
23/17/7/3
37/17/5/3
25/10/7/3
40/8/3
33/10/4
31/16/3
30/8/10/5
29/11/4

Hakeem was one of the most clutch players of all-time..

[Batchoy]

Which is bogus and unfair because you should be judged on your basketball abilities and accomplishments on what you did on the court, not off the court.And how did Magic and Bird resurrect the league...?

By playing basketball at the highest level. Winning games, winning divisions, winning conferences, and winning NBA Championships. They both also won individual honors, MVP's, rookie of the year, assist leaders, Finals MVP's, All star games, etc. You can look at their stats and see how well they played individually. They also had an unmatched rivalry that pushed each other as well as their teams to be their best.

[get these NETS]

I'm as big a Bird fan as exists, and i'm saddened by the people who go overboard with Bird worship.


Happens every time his name comes up.....logic is suspended and the fanaticism....extreme fanaticism emerges.........goes beyond just admiring a player


Any all time great can be compared to another alltime great.awkard when they play different positions but you can compare them.

[Bigsmoke]

- Bird has 3 league MVPs
- Hakeem has 1 league MVP

- Bird won 3 titles during the NBA's most competitive era
- Hakeem won 2 titles during a much weaker era & no MJ.

- Bird is one of the NBA's saviors
- Hakeem is not

thats shouldn't be a problem since his teams were stacked as hell.

[SwooshReturns]

thats shouldn't be a problem since his teams were stacked as hell.
Yea ... the mid to late 80's Celtics, Lakers, Sixers and Pistons were all super-teams.

[Odinn]

GOAT list not just about peaks.

Peak; very arguably. I'd say equal, you can't wrong with either. The difference is minimal.
Prime; I'd say Bird. Still close.
Accolades; Bird. Not saying way better but it's clear cut.
Longevity; We will never know Bird's true longevity. Hakeem.

The point about Hakeem is he had one of the top 5 peaks(as 3 year-span) ever but his legacy mostly based on just 3 year span. He is the only player who gets this much credit just based on 3 years from the 10 ever list. That can't be said for other top 10 players. That can't be said for Bird.


It's saying like why Pete Sampras ranked over John McEnroe. McEnroe had one of the best calendar years ever in 1984. At his best he is there. But not career wise.

[Brunch@Five]

I think Olajuwons impact offensively is way overrated if you take a look at his whole career. Hovered around .500 and didn't top 25ppg before his 30th birthday. Then had 4 great years and fell off hard after that.
Bird was far better on offense, if alone for the fact the he was a better ball handler. You also could run the offense through him in the post just as well as you could through Hakeem.

[get these NETS]

I think Olajuwons impact offensively is way overrated if you take a look at his whole career. Hovered around .500 and didn't top 25ppg before his 30th birthday. Then had 4 great years and fell off hard after that.
Bird was far better on offense, if alone for the fact the he was a better ball handler. You also could run the offense through him in the post just as well as you could through Hakeem.


WTF?


ball handling?

[Da_Realist]

It's saying like why Pete Sampras ranked over John McEnroe. McEnroe had one of the best calendar years ever in 1984. At his best he is there. But not career wise.

Love the tennis reference :rockon:

[ballinhun8]

I'll be sure to take that seriously from such a quality poster such as yourself :rolleyes:

/sarcasm.
.




Oh sorry, would you like to me to post under a different account like yourself?

[millwad]

I think Olajuwons impact offensively is way overrated if you take a look at his whole career. Hovered around .500 and didn't top 25ppg before his 30th birthday. Then had 4 great years and fell off hard after that.
Bird was far better on offense, if alone for the fact the he was a better ball handler. You also could run the offense through him in the post just as well as you could through Hakeem.

How can it be overrated?
The guy was a scorer, there's no doubt about that. He has the highest point per game average in the playoffs for any center in NBA history. He also averaged more than 23 points per game in 9 regular seasons and in total Hakeem is 9th in scoring of all-time. How is he overrated? Watch Houston's back to backs, every single possession went through Hakeem's hands..

And ballhandler? What? Hakeem was a center and you're comparing his ballhandling skills to a SF? And no, you couldn't run through Bird in the post just as well you could through Hakeem.

[Brunch@Five]

How can it be overrated?
The guy was a scorer, there's no doubt about that. He has the highest point per game average in the playoffs for any center in NBA history. He also averaged more than 23 points per game in 9 regular seasons and in total Hakeem is 9th in scoring of all-time. How is he overrated? Watch Houston's back to backs, every single possession went through Hakeem's hands..
23ppg at .500, while not being an outstanding passer, is not comparable to what the greatest offensive players like Bird, Magic or Jordan gave you.


And ballhandler? What? Hakeem was a center and you're comparing his ballhandling skills to a SF? And no, you couldn't run through Bird in the post just as well you could through Hakeem.

Ballhandling = things you can do with the ball. ie take guys off the dribble, make passes, ball-fakes etc.
And clearly Bird was a great post player. He wasn't as great 1on1 in the post as Hakeem, but clearly a much better passer. In terms of running a complete offense, Hakeem doesn't have much if anything on Bird. 10 seconds to go, I'd rather give Bird the ball in the post to make the winning play (assuming he has a good supporting cast).
Again, I'm not talking about scoring. You can't ignore the playmaking though. Which is why Bird is way better on offense than Hakeem.

[tontoz]

Bird was certainly more popular. Better player? Not so sure about that. The Court has 2 sides and Hakeem was a better defender than Bird by a mile.

The greatest playoff series i have ever seen from any player (including MJ, Bird and Magic) was the one where Hakeem punk'd DRob who won the MVP that year. Dream abused him, badly.

[millwad]

23ppg at .500, while not being an outstanding passer, is not comparable to what the greatest offensive players like Bird, Magic or Jordan gave you.

First of all, if you'd compare Hakeem's scoring average to the age when Bird retired, Hakeem would average 23.5 ppg on better % then what Bird managed to do on his 24.3 ppg average during his career.

And lets not forget that Hakeem even with his crappy last years in the league still had the highest PPG average for any center in the playoffs, his 25.9 point per game average in the playoffs beats Bird's 23.8 point per game average in the playoffs. If you just compare Hakeem's scoring to Birds to the age of 35 (the year Bird retired) Hakeem would even look more impressive..



Ballhandling = things you can do with the ball. ie take guys off the dribble, make passes, ball-fakes etc.
And clearly Bird was a great post player. He wasn't as great 1on1 in the post as Hakeem, but clearly a much better passer. In terms of running a complete offense, Hakeem doesn't have much if anything on Bird. 10 seconds to go, I'd rather give Bird the ball in the post to make the winning play (assuming he has a good supporting cast).
Again, I'm not talking about scoring. You can't ignore the playmaking though. Which is why Bird is way better on offense than Hakeem.

Of course Bird was a better passer, Hakeem was a center, HELLO!? And if you want to see a center running the complete offense, go and watch Hakeem's back to back titles. Almost every play went through Hakeem's hands which is extremely rare, he raised all his teammates averages.

And no, Bird wasn't "way better" on offense than Hakeem. And Hakeem is still way more dominant on the defensive end, the defensive end is what's not close.

[eliteballer]

FROM THE CENTER POSITION, Hakeem was a GREAT passer. Also dont assume Bird peaked higher. Hakeems peak is one of the greatest ever, evidenced by how he carried those Rockets teams and outplayed great centers like Robinson and Ewing

[Brunch@Five]

FROM THE CENTER POSITION, Hakeem was a GREAT passer. Also dont assume Bird peaked higher. Hakeems peak is one of the greatest ever, evidenced by how he carried those Rockets teams and outplayed great centers like Robinson and Ewing

if you make the center excuse for Hakeem on offense, apply the same logic to Bird on defense, please.
It's a fact that Bird was considerably better as a playmaker AND as a scorer than Hakeem.

[StateOfMind12]

if you make the center excuse for Hakeem on offense, apply the same logic to Bird on defense, please.
It's a fact that Bird was considerably better as a playmaker AND as a scorer than Hakeem.
Bird was not a better scorer than Hakeem was. There is a reason why Hakeem's post-season scoring numbers are much higher than Bird's. Hakeem's post-season scoring numbers is much higher than Bird for their careers, their primes, their peaks, etc. Bird's scoring did not translate in the post-season as well as Hakeem's did. Hakeem was a better scorer than Bird but you can argue that Bird was the better offensive player.

[eliteballer]

if you make the center excuse for Hakeem on offense, apply the same logic to Bird on defense, please.
It's a fact that Bird was considerably better as a playmaker AND as a scorer than Hakeem.


What a horrible post:oldlol: Bird wasnt a great defender no matter WHAT you refer to him as, and Hakeems defensive impact is a FAR greater factor in the outcome of games than Birds passing. You fools are acting like he was tom brady.

[millwad]

if you make the center excuse for Hakeem on offense, apply the same logic to Bird on defense, please.
It's a fact that Bird was considerably better as a playmaker AND as a scorer than Hakeem.

How can Bird be considerably better scorer when Hakeem had a higher PPG average in the playoffs on better FG%? HOW?

[juju151111]

How can Bird be considerably better scorer when Hakeem had a higher PPG average in the playoffs on better FG%? HOW?
Exactly Dream had playoffs numbers while Bird had plenty of clunkers.

[Brunch@Five]

What a horrible post:oldlol: Bird wasnt a great defender no matter WHAT you refer to him as, and Hakeems defensive impact is a FAR greater factor in the outcome of games than Birds passing. You fools are acting like he was tom brady.

I didn't start with this. Obviously Bird is a worse defender. I never said otherwise. HOWEVER, when we're talking about total offensive impact, it's irrelevant whether you label Hakeem a C, PF or SF. I said Bird is a way better playmaker, passer and ballhandler. The fact that Hakeem is above average or great in these aspects for a Center is not relevant in that comparison.

Also, yes, Bird was like Tom Brady in terms of passing. Much like Magic, you could give Bird the ball at any spot on the floor and he could make a deadly pass.

[jlauber]

Both are way over-rated, but Hakeem is a BORDERLINE Top-10 player at best.

The Hakeem-lovers ALWAYS point to THREE playoff series, and in one, he was battered by a young Shaq.

Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets, with as much talent as Ewing's 56-26 Knicks, beat that NY team in seven close games. True, Hakeem averaged 27 ppg, 9 rpg, and shot an .500 (which was his FINALS HIGH BTW...in his other two Finals, he shot .488 and .483), and he outplayed Ewing, BUT, those numbers are not dramatically better. Hakeem didn't even have ONE game in that series in which he was the leading rebounder, and Ewing easily outrebounded him, 12.4 rpg to 9.1 rpg.

True, Hakeem smacked Robinson in FOUR of their six games in the '95 playoffs. Of course, Ewing and Shaq also had playoff series against Robinson in which they badly outplayed him, as well.

Still, how about their other 42 H2H games? Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 rpg, and virtually every other offensive stat was a complete dead-heat...EXCEPT, in FG%, where Robinson outshot Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin (just an awful FG% BTW.) Oh, and BTW, Robinson's Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets.

How about those H2H's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

So, yes, over the course of FOUR games, Hakeem was better. The rest of their careers were a wash. And how many people rate Robinson anywhere near the Top-10?

As for the '95 Finals, a young Shaq was the better player...just as he was against his regular season H2H's. Sure, the shot-jacking Hakeem (taking 30 FGAs per game) slightly outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, BUT, in virtually EVERY other statistical category in that series, Shaq easily outplayed Hakeem. He outrebounded him, he outassisted him (BTW, had Shaq's teammates been able to hit their wide open shots from Shaq, he would have averaged 10 apg in that series, instead of "only" 6.3 apg), he even outblocked Hakeem. Oh, and BTW, he SHREDDED Hakeem in efficiency,...outshooting him by a MILE (.595 to .483.) How did Houston win that series? Hakeem's TEAMMATES DRAMATICALLY outshot Shaq's from the floor, and the arc...HUGE margins. AND, they took a MASSIVE number more FTAs, too.

Once again, a YOUNG Shaq held his own against a supposedly PRIME Hakeem. Even in the years from '93 to '95 it was very close, in every category. Hakeem was a slightly better scorer, and Shaq was a slightly better rebounder, and more efficient.

From the 95-96 season on, it was all Shaq. In their 14 H2H games from that point on, Shaq easily outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Hakeem. In fact, in those 14 games, Hakeem hit 50% or better, in FOUR games, and he had SIX of under 40% (including TWO of less than 30%.)

And that was in their regular season H2H's...

And while the Hakeem-lovers will somehow try to say that a PRIME Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 (which was not the case), they NEVER bring up a more PRIME Shaq just SHELLING Hakeem in the '99 playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

What is interesting, too, is that the Hakeem "excusers" will say that Olajuwon was only 22-23 years old, when a 38-39 year old Kareem (yes a 39 year old Kareem) who couldn't jump for his life, just OBLITERATED Hakeem in TEN STRAIGHT games, scoring 32 ppg on .630 in those TEN STRAIGHT games...

they will NEVER say anything like that in the '95 Finals, when Hakeem (who was outplayed by Shaq, but his TEAM best Shaq's) at his PEAK, couldn't outplay the 22 year old Shaq (yes, 22 years old.)

BUT, when Hakeem gets MURDERED by a PRIME Shaq from '96 on...well, Hakeem was past his prime.

And this 22-23 year vs 38-39 Kareem battle was just LOPSIDED. Yet, how many of the Hakeem fans will acknowledge Moses Malone's greatness. A 22 year old Malone played FAR better against a 29 year old Kareem. A 23 year old matched him. And a 24 year old Moses POUNDED Kareem, even in Kareem's last MVP season (79-80)? From '79 thru '85, Moses was a BETTER player than Hakeem EVER was. He was a better scorer (he even LED the league in scoring at 31.1 ppg one season. And he was LIGHT YEARS better in rebounding than Hakeem EVER was. Hell, in one season, Moses outrebounded his nearest competitor by FIVE per game. (BTW, when Hakeem was paired with an equally aged 6-6 Barkley, Charles slaughtered Hakeem on the glass by over FOUR per game.)


MVP's? The supposed "best player on the planet in '95 and '96" came in FIFTH and FOURTH in the MVP balloting. The man won ONE MVP, and in a year in which MJ took off. In fact, had MJ played that season, and there would have been NO DOUBT that the Bulls would have won the title that season. Even without him, Chicago went 55-27, and then lost a close (and controversial) game seven to the Knicks in the playoffs. The same Knick team that took the Rockets to a close game seven in the Finals. Only a complete idiot would claim that Houston would have beaten an MJ-led Bulls team in the Finals that season.

The REALITY? Hakeem won that one questionable MVP. He came in second...ONE time. And he finished in the Top-4, TWO more times. That was it. FOUR Top-FOUR finishes in an 18 season career. He didn't even finish in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of seasons, or nearly HALF of them.

More REALITY. Hakeem played on FOUR teams that won 50+ games in his EIGHTEEN season career, with a HIGH of 58 wins. He NEVER even took ONE team to the BEST record in the league. Not ONE.

Even MORE REALITY. While the Hakeem-lovers bask in his TWO title runs (and again, MJ didn't play in one), what about the rest of his 18 seasons? He took 15 teams to the playoffs. FOUR made it to the Conference Finals. Three made it to the Finals. And, yes, he had two winners.

Oh, wait, he also took EIGHT of his teams down in flames in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs. EIGHT of them. OVER HALF of his playoff teams were wiped out in the FIRST ROUND. Not only that, but they rarely won more than ONE game in those EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoffs losses. They weren't even CLOSE to winning those series.

Scorer? He not only never won even ONE scoring title, in his EIGHTEEN seasons, he never even came close. He never even approached 30 ppg (27.8 ppg was his HIGH.) So, no, he was NOWHERE NEAR a truly GREAT scorer. His BEST season comes in at 136th all-time.

Rebounding? True, he won two rebounding titles (barely.) And he was NOWHERE NEAR the best rebounder of HIS era, either. The 6-8 Rodman was a FAR better rebounder. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, his own teammate, the 6-6 Barkley, just crushed him on the glass.

Shot-blocking? I love it how the Hakeem fans rave about him being the all-time shot-block leader. Of course, the REALITY is, Wilt and Russell probably blocked TWICE as many shots (maybe even THREE times as many.) He wasn't even the best shot-blocker of HIS era. Mark "cement shoes" Eaton was a FAR greater shot-blocker (and won more shot-blocking titles, despite a much shorter career.)

Defense? He was not only LIGHT YEARS behind players like Russell and Wilt, he wasn't even the best defensive player in HIS era. He only won TWO DPOY's. Mutombo won FOUR. 6-7 Ben Wallace won FOUR. And players like Rodman, Eaton, and Mourning won as many.

FG% shooting? Truly LAUGHABLE. Hakeem, a CENTER, was barely above the league average for most of his career. And he played in the defenseless 80's, too, where EVERYONE shot 50%+. In fact, it was no coincidence that his HIGHEST FG% season, came in his ROOKIE year, at .538...in a league that shot the HIGHEST FG% in it's HISTORY (.492.) Hakeem was FAR down the list of EFFICIENT centers in his career, and this is not even debateable.

There you have it. The Hakeem "lovers" can point to TWO playoff series, in which he outplayed Ewing and Robinson (and the rest of his career matchups with Robinson were a complete draw.) The remainder of his 18 season career was made up of being a very good, but certainly not GREAT, player, who was not even considered a Top-4 player in 14 seasons of his career. A player who couldn't even get out of the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs in OVER HALF of his playoff career (and even in those they never put up a fight.)

That was the REALITY of Hakeem's career. He was, at BEST, a BORDERLINE Top-10 player. And, when you take a closer look at Moses' career, I am now inclined to move Malone over him, as well...and knocking Hakeem down to #11.

[LoneyROY7]

Both are way over-rated, but Hakeem is a BORDERLINE Top-10 player at best.

The Hakeem-lovers ALWAYS point to THREE playoff series, and in one, he was battered by a young Shaq.

Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets, with as much talent as Ewing's 56-26 Knicks, beat that NY team in seven close games. True, Hakeem averaged 27 ppg, 9 rpg, and shot an .500 (which was his FINALS HIGH BTW...in his other two Finals, he shot .488 and .483), and he outplayed Ewing, BUT, those numbers are not dramatically better. Hakeem didn't even have ONE game in that series in which he was the leading rebounder, and Ewing easily outrebounded him, 12.4 rpg to 9.1 rpg.

True, Hakeem smacked Robinson in FOUR of their six games in the '95 playoffs. Of course, Ewing and Shaq also had playoff series against Robinson in which they badly outplayed him, as well.

Still, how about their other 42 H2H games? Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 rpg, and virtually every other offensive stat was a complete dead-heat...EXCEPT, in FG%, where Robinson outshot Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin (just an awful FG% BTW.) Oh, and BTW, Robinson's Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets.

How about those H2H's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

So, yes, over the course of FOUR games, Hakeem was better. The rest of their careers were a wash. And how many people rate Robinson anywhere near the Top-10?

As for the '95 Finals, a young Shaq was the better player...just as he was against his regular season H2H's. Sure, the shot-jacking Hakeem (taking 30 FGAs per game) slightly outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, BUT, in virtually EVERY other statistical category in that series, Shaq easily outplayed Hakeem. He outrebounded him, he outassisted him (BTW, had Shaq's teammates been able to hit their wide open shots from Shaq, he would have averaged 10 apg in that series, instead of "only" 6.3 apg), he even outblocked Hakeem. Oh, and BTW, he SHREDDED Hakeem in efficiency,...outshooting him by a MILE (.595 to .483.) How did Houston win that series? Hakeem's TEAMMATES DRAMATICALLY outshot Shaq's from the floor, and the arc...HUGE margins. AND, they took a MASSIVE number more FTAs, too.

Once again, a YOUNG Shaq held his own against a supposedly PRIME Hakeem. Even in the years from '93 to '95 it was very close, in every category. Hakeem was a slightly better scorer, and Shaq was a slightly better rebounder, and more efficient.

From the 95-96 season on, it was all Shaq. In their 14 H2H games from that point on, Shaq easily outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Hakeem. In fact, in those 14 games, Hakeem hit 50% or better, in FOUR games, and he had SIX of under 40% (including TWO of less than 30%.)

And that was in their regular season H2H's...

And while the Hakeem-lovers will somehow try to say that a PRIME Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 (which was not the case), they NEVER bring up a more PRIME Shaq just SHELLING Hakeem in the '99 playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

What is interesting, too, is that the Hakeem "excusers" will say that Olajuwon was only 22-23 years old, when a 38-39 year old Kareem (yes a 39 year old Kareem) who couldn't jump for his life, just OBLITERATED Hakeem in TEN STRAIGHT games, scoring 32 ppg on .630 in those TEN STRAIGHT games...

they will NEVER say anything like that in the '95 Finals, when Hakeem (who was outplayed by Shaq, but his TEAM best Shaq's) at his PEAK, couldn't outplay the 22 year old Shaq (yes, 22 years old.)

BUT, when Hakeem gets MURDERED by a PRIME Shaq from '96 on...well, Hakeem was past his prime.

And this 22-23 year vs 38-39 Kareem battle was just LOPSIDED. Yet, how many of the Hakeem fans will acknowledge Moses Malone's greatness. A 22 year old Malone played FAR better against a 29 year old Kareem. A 23 year old matched him. And a 24 year old Moses POUNDED Kareem, even in Kareem's last MVP season (79-80)? From '79 thru '85, Moses was a BETTER player than Hakeem EVER was. He was a better scorer (he even LED the league in scoring at 31.1 ppg one season. And he was LIGHT YEARS better in rebounding than Hakeem EVER was. Hell, in one season, Moses outrebounded his nearest competitor by FIVE per game. (BTW, when Hakeem was paired with an equally aged 6-6 Barkley, Charles slaughtered Hakeem on the glass by over FOUR per game.)


MVP's? The supposed "best player on the planet in '95 and '96" came in FIFTH and FOURTH in the MVP balloting. The man won ONE MVP, and in a year in which MJ took off. In fact, had MJ played that season, and there would have been NO DOUBT that the Bulls would have won the title that season. Even without him, Chicago went 55-27, and then lost a close (and controversial) game seven to the Knicks in the playoffs. The same Knick team that took the Rockets to a close game seven in the Finals. Only a complete idiot would claim that Houston would have beaten an MJ-led Bulls team in the Finals that season.

The REALITY? Hakeem won that one questionable MVP. He came in second...ONE time. And he finished in the Top-4, TWO more times. That was it. FOUR Top-FOUR finishes in an 18 season career. He didn't even finish in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of seasons, or nearly HALF of them.

More REALITY. Hakeem played on FOUR teams that won 50+ games in his EIGHTEEN season career, with a HIGH of 58 wins. He NEVER even took ONE team to the BEST record in the league. Not ONE.

Even MORE REALITY. While the Hakeem-lovers bask in his TWO title runs (and again, MJ didn't play in one), what about the rest of his 18 seasons? He took 15 teams to the playoffs. FOUR made it to the Conference Finals. Three made it to the Finals. And, yes, he had two winners.

Oh, wait, he also took EIGHT of his teams down in flames in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs. EIGHT of them. OVER HALF of his playoff teams were wiped out in the FIRST ROUND. Not only that, but they rarely won more than ONE game in those EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoffs losses. They weren't even CLOSE to winning those series.

Scorer? He not only never won even ONE scoring title, in his EIGHTEEN seasons, he never even came close. He never even approached 30 ppg (27.8 ppg was his HIGH.) So, no, he was NOWHERE NEAR a truly GREAT scorer. His BEST season comes in at 136th all-time.

Rebounding? True, he won two rebounding titles (barely.) And he was NOWHERE NEAR the best rebounder of HIS era, either. The 6-8 Rodman was a FAR better rebounder. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, his own teammate, the 6-6 Barkley, just crushed him on the glass.

Shot-blocking? I love it how the Hakeem fans rave about him being the all-time shot-block leader. Of course, the REALITY is, Wilt and Russell probably blocked TWICE as many shots (maybe even THREE times as many.) He wasn't even the best shot-blocker of HIS era. Mark "cement shoes" Eaton was a FAR greater shot-blocker (and won more shot-blocking titles, despite a much shorter career.)

Defense? He was not only LIGHT YEARS behind players like Russell and Wilt, he wasn't even the best defensive player in HIS era. He only won TWO DPOY's. Mutombo won FOUR. 6-7 Ben Wallace won FOUR. And players like Rodman, Eaton, and Mourning won as many.

FG% shooting? Truly LAUGHABLE. Hakeem, a CENTER, was barely above the league average for most of his career. And he played in the defenseless 80's, too, where EVERYONE shot 50%+. In fact, it was no coincidence that his HIGHEST FG% season, came in his ROOKIE year, at .538...in a league that shot the HIGHEST FG% in it's HISTORY (.492.) Hakeem was FAR down the list of EFFICIENT centers in his career, and this is not even debateable.

There you have it. The Hakeem "lovers" can point to TWO playoff series, in which he outplayed Ewing and Robinson (and the rest of his career matchups with Robinson were a complete draw.) The remainder of his 18 season career was made up of being a very good, but certainly not GREAT, player, who was not even considered a Top-4 player in 14 seasons of his career. A player who couldn't even get out of the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs in OVER HALF of his playoff career (and even in those they never put up a fight.)

That was the REALITY of Hakeem's career. He was, at BEST, a BORDERLINE Top-10 player. And, when you take a closer look at Moses' career, I am now inclined to move Malone over him, as well...and knocking Hakeem down to #11.

Typical agenda-driven post to unnecessarily prop up Wilt.

:coleman:

[Bernie Nips]

First of all, if you'd compare Hakeem's scoring average to the age when Bird retired, Hakeem would average 23.5 ppg on better % then what Bird managed to do on his 24.3 ppg average during his career.

And lets not forget that Hakeem even with his crappy last years in the league still had the highest PPG average for any center in the playoffs, his 25.9 point per game average in the playoffs beats Bird's 23.8 point per game average in the playoffs. If you just compare Hakeem's scoring to Birds to the age of 35 (the year Bird retired) Hakeem would even look more impressive..



Of course Bird was a better passer, Hakeem was a center, HELLO!? And if you want to see a center running the complete offense, go and watch Hakeem's back to back titles. Almost every play went through Hakeem's hands which is extremely rare, he raised all his teammates averages.

And no, Bird wasn't "way better" on offense than Hakeem. And Hakeem is still way more dominant on the defensive end, the defensive end is what's not close.

Wait a second...


First of all, if you'd compare Hakeem's scoring average to the age when Bird retired, Hakeem would average 23.5 ppg on better % then what Bird managed to do on his 24.3 ppg average during his career.


Of course Bird was a better passer, Hakeem was a center, HELLO!?

:coleman:


First of all, if you'd compare Hakeem's scoring average to the age when Bird retired, Hakeem would average 23.5 ppg on better % then what Bird managed to do on his 24.3 ppg average during his career.


Of course Bird was a better passer, Hakeem was a center, HELLO!?

:biggums:

[Round Mound]

Hakeem was a Better Individual Player (Higher PER, so was Barkley) but None Can Be The Best Team Player but Bird

The Comparison vs D-Rob is flawed. Most of the Games past 1995 are when Hakeem was Passed his Prime. Give me a 1989 to 1995 Head to Heads vs Robinson and you`ll see Who Outplayed Who

[Odinn]

Hakeem was a Better Individual Player (Higher PER
23.5 vs 23.6...:roll: :roll: :roll:

PER... What a joke.:oldlol: People use that crap to rank the all-time greats?..:roll:

[get these NETS]

Hakeem was a Better Individual Player (Higher PER, so was Barkley) but None Can Be The Best Team Player but Bird

The Comparison vs D-Rob is flawed. Most of the Games past 1995 are when Hakeem was Passed his Prime. Give me a 1989 to 1995 Head to Heads vs Robinson and you`ll see Who Outplayed Who
when the money was on the table dream sank the admiral's battleship

[305Baller]

Bird is ranked higher purely because he put on a great show. Diving for balls, trick shots, titles, etc.. but they are close...

[Jotaro Durant]

Both are way over-rated, but Hakeem is a BORDERLINE Top-10 player at best.

The Hakeem-lovers ALWAYS point to THREE playoff series, and in one, he was battered by a young Shaq.

Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets, with as much talent as Ewing's 56-26 Knicks, beat that NY team in seven close games. True, Hakeem averaged 27 ppg, 9 rpg, and shot an .500 (which was his FINALS HIGH BTW...in his other two Finals, he shot .488 and .483), and he outplayed Ewing, BUT, those numbers are not dramatically better. Hakeem didn't even have ONE game in that series in which he was the leading rebounder, and Ewing easily outrebounded him, 12.4 rpg to 9.1 rpg.

True, Hakeem smacked Robinson in FOUR of their six games in the '95 playoffs. Of course, Ewing and Shaq also had playoff series against Robinson in which they badly outplayed him, as well.

Still, how about their other 42 H2H games? Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 rpg, and virtually every other offensive stat was a complete dead-heat...EXCEPT, in FG%, where Robinson outshot Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin (just an awful FG% BTW.) Oh, and BTW, Robinson's Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets.

How about those H2H's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

So, yes, over the course of FOUR games, Hakeem was better. The rest of their careers were a wash. And how many people rate Robinson anywhere near the Top-10?

As for the '95 Finals, a young Shaq was the better player...just as he was against his regular season H2H's. Sure, the shot-jacking Hakeem (taking 30 FGAs per game) slightly outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, BUT, in virtually EVERY other statistical category in that series, Shaq easily outplayed Hakeem. He outrebounded him, he outassisted him (BTW, had Shaq's teammates been able to hit their wide open shots from Shaq, he would have averaged 10 apg in that series, instead of "only" 6.3 apg), he even outblocked Hakeem. Oh, and BTW, he SHREDDED Hakeem in efficiency,...outshooting him by a MILE (.595 to .483.) How did Houston win that series? Hakeem's TEAMMATES DRAMATICALLY outshot Shaq's from the floor, and the arc...HUGE margins. AND, they took a MASSIVE number more FTAs, too.

Once again, a YOUNG Shaq held his own against a supposedly PRIME Hakeem. Even in the years from '93 to '95 it was very close, in every category. Hakeem was a slightly better scorer, and Shaq was a slightly better rebounder, and more efficient.

From the 95-96 season on, it was all Shaq. In their 14 H2H games from that point on, Shaq easily outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Hakeem. In fact, in those 14 games, Hakeem hit 50% or better, in FOUR games, and he had SIX of under 40% (including TWO of less than 30%.)

And that was in their regular season H2H's...

And while the Hakeem-lovers will somehow try to say that a PRIME Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 (which was not the case), they NEVER bring up a more PRIME Shaq just SHELLING Hakeem in the '99 playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

What is interesting, too, is that the Hakeem "excusers" will say that Olajuwon was only 22-23 years old, when a 38-39 year old Kareem (yes a 39 year old Kareem) who couldn't jump for his life, just OBLITERATED Hakeem in TEN STRAIGHT games, scoring 32 ppg on .630 in those TEN STRAIGHT games...

they will NEVER say anything like that in the '95 Finals, when Hakeem (who was outplayed by Shaq, but his TEAM best Shaq's) at his PEAK, couldn't outplay the 22 year old Shaq (yes, 22 years old.)

BUT, when Hakeem gets MURDERED by a PRIME Shaq from '96 on...well, Hakeem was past his prime.

And this 22-23 year vs 38-39 Kareem battle was just LOPSIDED. Yet, how many of the Hakeem fans will acknowledge Moses Malone's greatness. A 22 year old Malone played FAR better against a 29 year old Kareem. A 23 year old matched him. And a 24 year old Moses POUNDED Kareem, even in Kareem's last MVP season (79-80)? From '79 thru '85, Moses was a BETTER player than Hakeem EVER was. He was a better scorer (he even LED the league in scoring at 31.1 ppg one season. And he was LIGHT YEARS better in rebounding than Hakeem EVER was. Hell, in one season, Moses outrebounded his nearest competitor by FIVE per game. (BTW, when Hakeem was paired with an equally aged 6-6 Barkley, Charles slaughtered Hakeem on the glass by over FOUR per game.)


MVP's? The supposed "best player on the planet in '95 and '96" came in FIFTH and FOURTH in the MVP balloting. The man won ONE MVP, and in a year in which MJ took off. In fact, had MJ played that season, and there would have been NO DOUBT that the Bulls would have won the title that season. Even without him, Chicago went 55-27, and then lost a close (and controversial) game seven to the Knicks in the playoffs. The same Knick team that took the Rockets to a close game seven in the Finals. Only a complete idiot would claim that Houston would have beaten an MJ-led Bulls team in the Finals that season.

The REALITY? Hakeem won that one questionable MVP. He came in second...ONE time. And he finished in the Top-4, TWO more times. That was it. FOUR Top-FOUR finishes in an 18 season career. He didn't even finish in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of seasons, or nearly HALF of them.

More REALITY. Hakeem played on FOUR teams that won 50+ games in his EIGHTEEN season career, with a HIGH of 58 wins. He NEVER even took ONE team to the BEST record in the league. Not ONE.

Even MORE REALITY. While the Hakeem-lovers bask in his TWO title runs (and again, MJ didn't play in one), what about the rest of his 18 seasons? He took 15 teams to the playoffs. FOUR made it to the Conference Finals. Three made it to the Finals. And, yes, he had two winners.

Oh, wait, he also took EIGHT of his teams down in flames in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs. EIGHT of them. OVER HALF of his playoff teams were wiped out in the FIRST ROUND. Not only that, but they rarely won more than ONE game in those EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoffs losses. They weren't even CLOSE to winning those series.

Scorer? He not only never won even ONE scoring title, in his EIGHTEEN seasons, he never even came close. He never even approached 30 ppg (27.8 ppg was his HIGH.) So, no, he was NOWHERE NEAR a truly GREAT scorer. His BEST season comes in at 136th all-time.

Rebounding? True, he won two rebounding titles (barely.) And he was NOWHERE NEAR the best rebounder of HIS era, either. The 6-8 Rodman was a FAR better rebounder. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, his own teammate, the 6-6 Barkley, just crushed him on the glass.

Shot-blocking? I love it how the Hakeem fans rave about him being the all-time shot-block leader. Of course, the REALITY is, Wilt and Russell probably blocked TWICE as many shots (maybe even THREE times as many.) He wasn't even the best shot-blocker of HIS era. Mark "cement shoes" Eaton was a FAR greater shot-blocker (and won more shot-blocking titles, despite a much shorter career.)

Defense? He was not only LIGHT YEARS behind players like Russell and Wilt, he wasn't even the best defensive player in HIS era. He only won TWO DPOY's. Mutombo won FOUR. 6-7 Ben Wallace won FOUR. And players like Rodman, Eaton, and Mourning won as many.

FG% shooting? Truly LAUGHABLE. Hakeem, a CENTER, was barely above the league average for most of his career. And he played in the defenseless 80's, too, where EVERYONE shot 50%+. In fact, it was no coincidence that his HIGHEST FG% season, came in his ROOKIE year, at .538...in a league that shot the HIGHEST FG% in it's HISTORY (.492.) Hakeem was FAR down the list of EFFICIENT centers in his career, and this is not even debateable.

There you have it. The Hakeem "lovers" can point to TWO playoff series, in which he outplayed Ewing and Robinson (and the rest of his career matchups with Robinson were a complete draw.) The remainder of his 18 season career was made up of being a very good, but certainly not GREAT, player, who was not even considered a Top-4 player in 14 seasons of his career. A player who couldn't even get out of the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs in OVER HALF of his playoff career (and even in those they never put up a fight.)

That was the REALITY of Hakeem's career. He was, at BEST, a BORDERLINE Top-10 player. And, when you take a closer look at Moses' career, I am now inclined to move Malone over him, as well...and knocking Hakeem down to #11.

ctrl+f
wilt
:yaohappy:

[Micku]

Bird was not a better scorer than Hakeem was. There is a reason why Hakeem's post-season scoring numbers are much higher than Bird's. Hakeem's post-season scoring numbers is much higher than Bird for their careers, their primes, their peaks, etc. Bird's scoring did not translate in the post-season as well as Hakeem's did. Hakeem was a better scorer than Bird but you can argue that Bird was the better offensive player.

Being swept or taken out in the first round was one of them though. Bird did play 20 more games than Hakeem and Bird didn't get knock out in the first round as much as Hakeem.

With that said, Bird didn't really score 30+ a game. He didn't need to, of course. He did other things.

[jlauber]

Typical agenda-driven post to unnecessarily prop up Wilt.

:coleman:

I see that you can't argue with ANY of my post, though. Typical IDIOTIC poster on ISH.

[millwad]

I see that you can't argue with ANY of my post, though. Typical IDIOTIC poster on ISH.

Jlauber, you're the biggest moron on ISH, you have no brain.
Wilt did your mother.

[StateOfMind12]

Being swept or taken out in the first round was one of them though. Bird did play 20 more games than Hakeem and Bird didn't get knock out in the first round as much as Hakeem.
Hakeem's got swept and taken out of the 1st round due to having weak teammates. The weaker your teammates are the more double teams you will see, the more attention you will receive, and the harder time you should have to score and even receive the ball.

The fact that Hakeem still scored more points despite all of that makes it an easy decision to figure out who the superior scorer between Bird and Hakeem is.

Plus, Hakeem in his peak scored more ppg in the post-season than Bird did in his peak. Hakeem was just a better scorer no matter how you look at it.



With that said, Bird didn't really score 30+ a game. He didn't need to, of course. He did other things.
Hakeem did as well....

[jlauber]

Hakeem could consistently get your team ONE win in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs. THE greatest LOSER of the so-called all-time greats.

[millwad]

Hakeem could consistently get your team ONE win in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs. THE greatest LOSER of the so-called all-time greats.

You always call him a loser, but it's still a fact that he won just as many titles as Wilt, while actually leading his teams a la scoring.. Something Wilt never did while winning them rings, haha..

And for once you should answer this question..

WHAT YEARS DO YOU THINK HAKEEM SHOULD HAVE MADE IT ANY FURTHER?

[Micku]

The fact that Hakeem still scored more points despite all of that makes it an easy decision to figure out who the superior scorer between Bird and Hakeem is.

Plus, Hakeem in his peak scored more ppg in the post-season than Bird did in his peak. Hakeem was just a better scorer no matter how you look at it.


Maybe. But even when Bird was in his prime, he did have Mchale and Parish on his team. He didn't really need to or have to score 30+ a lot. Similar to Magic and Worthy who could've scored more, but they had other scorers on their team too.


Hakeem did as well....

Indeed he did. But keep in mind that Bird switch out with Mchale (Mchale would guard the SFs sometimes) to rebound against the likes of Moses Malone, Sampson, Barkley, Hakeem himself, and etc. He would also create at times. He flirted with a triple double in the finals against Hakeem's Rockets in the Finals. And he had a few series where he did flirt with a triple double in the playoffs.

But not to sound that Hakeem isn't an impact player, because he was. But I think Bird proved that like Magic, he was one of the best team players to have. Obviously if you check the record that the Celts had without Bird. If you want to argue that Hakeem vs Bird individual skills, then it's kind'a hard to argue because you would possibly have to out a few aspects of the game.

[jlauber]

You always call him a loser, but it's still a fact that he won just as many titles as Wilt, while actually leading his teams a la scoring.. Something Wilt never did while winning them rings, haha..

And for once you should answer this question..

WHAT YEARS DO YOU THINK HAKEEM SHOULD HAVE MADE IT ANY FURTHER?


ALL of them. He seldom could even get his team more than ONE win in the first round. Just DISGRACEFUL.

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain carried much more pathetic rosters, and with players who played WORSE, MUCH farther than Hakeem did. Give me the entire post-seasons in which Hakeem's teammates shot .382, or .380, or .354, or .352 (and on a 55-25 tea BTW), .352, or even .332.

[millwad]

ALL of them. He seldom could even get his team more than ONE win in the first round. Just DISGRACEFUL.

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain carried much more pathetic rosters, and with players who played WORSE, MUCH farther than Hakeem did. Give me the entire post-seasons in which Hakeem's teammates shot .382, or .380, or .354, or .352 (and on a 55-25 tea BTW), .352, or even .332.

HAHAHA!

Ehm, I can start, Hakeem's 2nd best scorer in '94 playoffs was Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting.. And yeah, Hakeem and the Rockets won that year.

You're too easy..

You're the same idiot who claims that Hakeem got outplayed by Shaq in '95, haha..

[jlauber]

HAHAHA!

Ehm, I can start, Hakeem's 2nd best scorer in '94 playoffs was Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting.. And yeah, Hakeem and the Rockets won that year.

You're too easy..

You're the same idiot who claims that Hakeem got outplayed by Shaq in '95, haha..

Oh, that was Hakeem's 58-24 team, which barely beat a less talented Knick 56-26 Knick team in the post-season? And with his TEAMMATE Otis Thorpe OUTREBOUNDING Hakeem. Geez, how many times in Hakeem's post-season career was he outrebounded by TEAMMATES????


And yes, a 22 year old Shaq abused Hakeem in the '95 Finals. Had Shaq's teammates even played slightly better than the AWFUL performance that they put in (they were HORRIBLY outshot from the field, and the arc...as well as surrendering a TON more FTAs to Hakeem's teammates.)

Gotta love it, too. You constantly EXCUSE a 22-23 year old Hakeem for just getting CRUSHED by a 38-39 year old Kareem (and I mean just MURDERED...I can't recall ANY center ever averaging 32 ppg on .630 shooting in any ten H2H's games against ANYONE else in NBA history...no matter who they were)...and yet, you blatantly claim that a PRIME Hakeem outplayed Shaq (which was simply not true), and NEVER bring up the fact that Shaq was 22!

And you NEVER mention Hakeem just getting DESTROYED by a more PRIME Shaq in the '99 playoffs, either. In FACT, in their 28 H2H's, Shaq just CRUSHED Hakeem H2H. Not even CLOSE.

Or that a 22-23 year old Moses was battling a 29-30 year old Kareem to a draw in their H2H's, and from that point on, Moses just POUNDED a much more PRIME Kareem than Hakeem EVER faced.

Moses > Hakeem.

Hakeem...Top-10 in about HALF of HIS seasons in MVP balloting, with ONE MVP, ONE 2nd, and TWO 4th's, in 18 seasons. How ANYONE can claim that clown was a top-5 player of all-time is beyond me. He wasn't even a top-5 player in HIS era.

[millwad]

Oh, that was Hakeem's 58-24 team, which barely beat a less talented Knick 56-26 Knick team in the post-season?

Haha, you always got some excuse.
Hakeem won with a 2nd best scorer in Maxwell a la 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting. Wilt couldn't even win with all-stars by his side when he was in his scoring prime..:roll:



And yes, a 22 year old Shaq abused Hakeem in the '95 Finals. Had Shaq's teammates even played slightly better than the AWFUL performance that they put in (they were HORRIBLY outshot from the field, and the arc...as well as surrendering a TON more FTAs to Hakeem's teammates.)

Hakeem easily outplayed Shaq in game 2 and 4, there's not even a single person that would say anything about that, but you.. Game 3 was a tie at best for Shaq and game 1 who Hakeem made the game winning shot in goes to Shaq. Do you want to break down game for game and tell us all why you don't agree? Haha..



Gotta love it, too. You constantly EXCUSE a 22-23 year old Hakeem for just getting CRUSHED by a 38-39 year old Kareem (and I mean just MURDERED...I can't recall ANY center ever averaging 32 ppg on .630 shooting in any ten H2H's games against ANYONE else in NBA history...no matter who they were)...and yet, you blatantly claim that a PRIME Hakeem outplayed Shaq (which was simply not true), and NEVER bring up the fact that Shaq was 22!

I don't excuse him at all, the same 23 year old Hakeem abused Kareem and the Lakers in the playoffs that same year. Hakeem led his Rocket team to an easy 4-1 win in the WCF against the Lakers and Kareem, spam all you want about regular season games but it's a fact Hakeem abused the Lakers in the playoffs that same year and there was no question about that.

And no, you troll. Shaq was 23, why do you lie about Shaq's age? WHY? Answer me, WHY DO YOU LIE ABOUT SHAQ's AGE? And Hakeem as a 23 year old abused Kareem in the playoffs, Shaq got outplayed and swept in the playoffs..

Shaq faced Hakeem in the finals and yes, he got outplayed which is true. Even Shaq himself knows that, Hakeem easily won the match up in game 2 and 4 and game 1 went to Shaq (Hakeem still made the game winning shot in that game) and game 3 was a tie at best..



And you NEVER mention Hakeem just getting DESTROYED by a more PRIME Shaq in the '99 playoffs, either. In FACT, in their 28 H2H's, Shaq just CRUSHED Hakeem H2H. Not even CLOSE.

36 year old Hakeem, haha..
35 year old Wilt was freaking raped by Kareem in the regular season of '72, Kareem freaking averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting against prime defensive Wilt, how pathetic ain't that? Now go find a game where Shaq scored 40 on Hakeem.. Wait, there is no..

[juju151111]

Hakeem could consistently get your team ONE win in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs. THE greatest LOSER of the so-called all-time greats.
Show me a top 10 player who had no allstars and have a title. Hakeem was freaking beasting in the playoffs in the 80s but his team failed him. Infact he had no PG in 86 finals while Ralph was coked up and playing like a straight bum.

[millwad]

Show me a top 10 player who had no allstars and have a title. Hakeem was freaking beasting in the playoffs in the 80s but his team failed him. Infact he had no PG in 86 finals while Ralph was coked up and playing like a straight bum.

He has no knowledge, he freaking thinks Hakeem got badly outplayed by Shaq in '95...:facepalm

[juju151111]

ALL of them. He seldom could even get his team more than ONE win in the first round. Just DISGRACEFUL.

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain carried much more pathetic rosters, and with players who played WORSE, MUCH farther than Hakeem did. Give me the entire post-seasons in which Hakeem's teammates shot .382, or .380, or .354, or .352 (and on a 55-25 tea BTW), .352, or even .332.
Gtfo Hakeem led his no allstar team to a chip. Show me Wilt doing it. Show me Wilt going through 60 wins team with no homecourt advantages in no rounds. Shaq admitted Hakeem outplayed him and Robinson got finger raped when it mattered. Barly top 10 my ass

[jlauber]

Show me a top 10 player who had no allstars and have a title. Hakeem was freaking beasting in the playoffs in the 80s but his team failed him. Infact he had no PG in 86 finals while Ralph was coked up and playing like a straight bum.

I can show you players, without All-Star teammates, who carried their teams farther than Hakeem did in the 80's.

How about Wilt in '71? And before you mention West...NO, he did not play in the post-season, NOR did Baylor. And yet, Chamberlain CARRIED that team to the WCF's, where, by most accounts, he OUTPLAYED a PRIME Kareem.

Or Wilt in '64? True, he had Guy Rodgers, who was perhaps the WORST shooter in NBA history. How about this...Chamberlain's "all-star" teammate, Rodgers, shot .365 from the field that season. And, to prove it was no fluke, he then shot .329 in the post-season. And yet, with his teammates contributing absolutely nothing, Chamberlain took his 48-32 team (essentially the SAME team that went 31-49 the year before) past the Hawks in the first round, with a 39 ppg, 23 rpg, .559 series...and then to the Finals, where they lost 4-1 to the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers (and in a series in which Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.8 rpg...and shooting .517 from the field in the process, while his teammates couldn't throw a pea in the ocean.)

Or a Chamberlain taking a 40-40 Sixer team to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-19 Celtics, in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg.

Or Wilt taking the same LAST PLACE roster he inherited in '60, past Syracuse in the first round, and to a game six, two point loss against the 59-16 Celtics.

Or Chamberlain taking the core of that SAME team, only older and playing worse, to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics in the '62 ECF's (after leading his Warriors past Syracuse in game five of a best of five, with a 56-35 game.) Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot .354 in those playoffs (including "HOF" teammate Tom Gola shooting .271.)

I could go on, but Chamberlain carried far more pathetic rosters to near titles in several of his seasons in the first half of his career.

[jlauber]

Gtfo Hakeem led his no allstar team to a chip. Show me Wilt doing it. Show me Wilt going through 60 wins team with no homecourt advantages in no rounds. Shaq admitted Hakeem outplayed him and Robinson got finger raped when it mattered. Barly top 10 my ass

Hakeem had MORE HOFers on his roster than Shaq did in the '95 Finals. And I could not care less what Shaq SAID. He had his way with Hakeem. Here again, give me a list of times a player averaged 28 ppg on .595 shooting in the post-season on Wilt.

And Wilt not only CARRIED pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating 60+ win teams, he was facing those teams that had anywhere from SIX to EIGHT HOFers on their roster...AND, Wilt's TEAMMATES played WORSE than they did in the regular season.

Yes, borderline TOP-10!!!! He has NO CASE over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Duncan. And he could be anywhere in the Kobe, Bird, Moses mix (although a PRIME Moses, from '79 to '85 was MORE dominant.)

[millwad]

I can show you players, without All-Star teammates, who carried their teams farther than Hakeem did in the 80's...


As usual you never answer the question, you just go on with how bad teammates Wilt had and how amazing he was..

[millwad]

Hakeem had MORE HOFers on his roster than Shaq did in the '95 Finals. And I could not care less what Shaq SAID. He had his way with Hakeem. Here again, give me a list of times a player averaged 28 ppg on .595 shooting in the post-season on Wilt.


Haha, this is the problem. You don't watch the freaking games, you just watch the boxscores..

Break down the games, tell us how Shaq outplayed Hakeem in game 2, 3 and 4.. And you who spam constantly about 1 article from the Milwuakee press a la the '72 playoffs, why don't you agree with the huge amount of articles and quotes regarding Hakeem outplaying Shaq? Hypocrite..

But you're in good company, on ISH it's only you and 32dayz (who currently is banned for trolling) who claims that Hakeem got outplayed by Shaq.. Haha.

So Hakeem didn't outplay Shaq because of Shaq's ppg average and that he outshot Hakeem in that series but at the same time you claim that Wilt abused and crushed Kareem in the '72 playoffs, even though Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game and outshot him as well and also outrebounded Wilt in 3 of the games and also dished out more assists.. Great logic, Jlauber, great logic!

[juju151111]

I can show you players, without All-Star teammates, who carried their teams farther than Hakeem did in the 80's.

How about Wilt in '71? And before you mention West...NO, he did not play in the post-season, NOR did Baylor. And yet, Chamberlain CARRIED that team to the WCF's, where, by most accounts, he OUTPLAYED a PRIME Kareem.

Or Wilt in '64? True, he had Guy Rodgers, who was perhaps the WORST shooter in NBA history. How about this...Chamberlain's "all-star" teammate, Rodgers, shot .365 from the field that season. And, to prove it was no fluke, he then shot .329 in the post-season. And yet, with his teammates contributing absolutely nothing, Chamberlain took his 48-32 team (essentially the SAME team that went 31-49 the year before) past the Hawks in the first round, with a 39 ppg, 23 rpg, .559 series...and then to the Finals, where they lost 4-1 to the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers (and in a series in which Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.8 rpg...and shooting .517 from the field in the process, while his teammates couldn't throw a pea in the ocean.)

Or a Chamberlain taking a 40-40 Sixer team to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-19 Celtics, in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg.

Or Wilt taking the same LAST PLACE roster he inherited in '60, past Syracuse in the first round, and to a game six, two point loss against the 59-16 Celtics.

Or Chamberlain taking the core of that SAME team, only older and playing worse, to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics in the '62 ECF's (after leading his Warriors past Syracuse in game five of a best of five, with a 56-35 game.) Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot .354 in those playoffs (including "HOF" teammate Tom Gola shooting .271.)

I could go on, but Chamberlain carried far more pathetic rosters to near titles in several of his seasons in the first half of his career.
Long ass post and still dont see the person who led his team with no allstars to a title. I am still waiting

[juju151111]

Hakeem had MORE HOFers on his roster than Shaq did in the '95 Finals. And I could not care less what Shaq SAID. He had his way with Hakeem. Here again, give me a list of times a player averaged 28 ppg on .595 shooting in the post-season on Wilt.

And Wilt not only CARRIED pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating 60+ win teams, he was facing those teams that had anywhere from SIX to EIGHT HOFers on their roster...AND, Wilt's TEAMMATES played WORSE than they did in the regular season.

Yes, borderline TOP-10!!!! He has NO CASE over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Duncan. And he could be anywhere in the Kobe, Bird, Moses mix (although a PRIME Moses, from '79 to '85 was MORE dominant.)
Lmao I care wat Shaq said. Hakeem outplayed him and Shaq was a TO machine in that series. Hakeem made the clutch plays. I dont give a damn about eyelash. Hakeem took on the whole playoffs with no homecourt advantage and won.Lmfao at Duncan,Bird, and Kobe. Go sit down son

[jlauber]

Haha, this is the problem. You don't watch the freaking games, you just watch the boxscores..

Break down the games, tell us how Shaq outplayed Hakeem in game 2, 3 and 4.. And you who spam constantly about 1 article from the Milwuakee press a la the '72 playoffs, why don't you agree with the huge amount of articles and quotes regarding Hakeem outplaying Shaq? Hypocrite..

But you're in good company, on ISH it's only you and 32dayz (who currently is banned for trolling) who claims that Hakeem got outplayed by Shaq.. Haha.

So Hakeem didn't outplay Shaq because of Shaq's ppg average and that he outshot Hakeem in that series but at the same time you claim that Wilt abused and crushed Kareem in the '72 playoffs, even though Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game and outshot him as well and also outrebounded Wilt in 3 of the games and also dished out more assists.. Great logic, Jlauber, great logic!

Shaq CRUSHED Hakeem in game two. True, his TEAMMATES were awful, but Shaq just murdered Hakeem in the second half of that game.

Shaq was better in game one and two. The rest were close. Overall...Shaq, and easily.

Once again, take a CLOSE look at that series. Hakeem's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Shaq's. They outshot them from the floor by a HUGE margin. They outshot them from the arc by a HUGE margin. And they KILLED them from the line...taking FAR more FTs.

Had Shaq's TEAMMATES even played half way normally, his TEAM probably would have won that series.

And, once again, this from a just turned 23 year old Shaq...and against a supposed PRIME Hakeem.

Of course, Chamberlain was 35 in the '72 WCF's, and nowhere near the PRIME Chamberlain that just CRUSHED the NBA HOF centers in the 60's (and even Kareem in the one game before Wilt shattered his knee.)

We never got to see what a PRIME Chamberlain would have leveled Kareem with. What we do KNOW, though, is that a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the SAME centers that the two faced in their careers (and Wilt faced them in their PRIMES, too, unlike Kareem.)

[tontoz]

If someone started a thread about backup pgs if the thread went long enough it would eventually be about Wilt.

:facepalm

[jlauber]

Lmao I care wat Shaq said. Hakeem outplayed him and Shaq was a TO machine in that series. Hakeem made the clutch plays. I dont give a damn about eyelash. Hakeem took on the whole playoffs with no homecourt advantage and won.Lmfao at Duncan,Bird, and Kobe. Go sit down son


DUNCAN??? The TWO-TIME MVP. The THREE-TIME FMVP. FOUR RINGS. The Duncan who never had less than a 50 win season (except in a strike season, and then he won a title), and SEVERAL 60+ win teams.

And I see that you didn't mention Moses, who was CLEARLY a more dominant player at his peak (and his peak was longer as well.)

Hakeem has NO CASE over Duncan...and considerably less against Shaq. As for Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem...

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[millwad]

Shaq CRUSHED Hakeem in game two. True, his TEAMMATES were awful, but Shaq just murdered Hakeem in the second half of that game.

Shaq was better in game one and two. The rest were close. Overall...Shaq, and easily.


HAHAHA, wow.. You idiot, this only proves that you never actually saw this series and that you're talking out of your ass.

In game 2 Hakeem had a HUGE first half, he put up 22 points in the first half, O'neal and Anderson combined for pathetic 5-21 shooting in that first half. The game was never even close after the first half and Hakeem's dominant playing. Shaq's points came when the game was totally over and in garbage time, and this is what you call "Shaq crushing Hakeem", you're retarded. This is the biggest proof of your stupidity, you have NO CLUE what so ever about this. This is beyond embarrassing..

You're talking about "murdering" someone when the game is totally over and in garbage time when Shaq himself had a terrible first half while Hakeem had a crazy good first half with 22 points in 2 Q's..

And how was game 4 close?
Hakeem outscored Shaq with 10 points, outrebounded him with 3, outassisted him with 3 and turned over the ball 2 times less. You have clue what so ever, this is beyond stupid..



Once again, take a CLOSE look at that series. Hakeem's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Shaq's. They outshot them from the floor by a HUGE margin. They outshot them from the arc by a HUGE margin. And they KILLED them from the line...taking FAR more FTs.


I am not talking about teammates, I'm talking about Hakeem vs Shaq in the series. And you seem obsessed with Hakeem's teammates in that series, we all know how much better teammates Wilt had in '72 but you never mention that.. :facepalm




Of course, Chamberlain was 35 in the '72 WCF's, and nowhere near the PRIME Chamberlain that just CRUSHED the NBA HOF centers in the 60's (and even Kareem in the one game before Wilt shattered his knee.)

No one is ****ing talking about Chamberlain, I asked you about what you know about this series and you proved that you don't know smack, haha, you claimed that Hakeem got crushed in game 2, haha..



We never got to see what a PRIME Chamberlain would have leveled Kareem with. What we do KNOW, though, is that a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the SAME centers that the two faced in their careers (and Wilt faced them in their PRIMES, too, unlike Kareem.)

Still not asking about Chamberlain.. :facepalm

[jlauber]

HAHAHA, wow.. You idiot, this only proves that you never actually saw this series and that you're talking out of your ass.

In game 2 Hakeem had a HUGE first half, he put up 22 points in the first half, O'neal and Anderson combined for pathetic 5-21 shooting in that first half. The game was never even close after the first half and Hakeem's dominant playing. Shaq's points came when the game was totally over and in garbage time, and this is what you call "Shaq crushing Hakeem", you're retarded. This is the biggest proof of your stupidity, you have NO CLUE what so ever about this. This is beyond embarrassing..

You're talking about "murdering" someone when the game is totally over and in garbage time when Shaq himself had a terrible first half while Hakeem had a crazy good first half with 22 points in 2 Q's..

And how was game 4 close?
Hakeem outscored Shaq with 10 points, outrebounded him with 3, outassisted him with 3 and turned over the ball 2 times less. You have clue what so ever, this is beyond stupid..




I am not talking about teammates, I'm talking about Hakeem vs Shaq in the series. And you seem obsessed with Hakeem's teammates in that series, we all know how much better teammates Wilt had in '72 but you never mention that.. :facepalm




No one is ****ing talking about Chamberlain, I asked you about what you know about this series and you proved that you don't know smack, haha, you claimed that Hakeem got crushed in game 2, haha..



Still not asking about Chamberlain.. :facepalm

Game two...YOU mentioned the FIRST HALF. So, while Shaq just BURIED Hakeem in the second half, it doesn't count?

How about their stat line from that game?

Hakeem with 34 points, on 14-30 shooting (he only shot 50% in ONE game in that series, and it was an even 50% BTW), 6-9 from the line, with 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 5 fouls, 4 blocks, and 1 steal.

Shaq, with 33 points, on 12-22 shooting, 9-14 from the line (he outscored Hakeem from the line in three of the four games, and by a large margin overall), 12 rebounds, 7 assists (again, 6.3 apg in the series, and had his teammates hit their open shots, it would have been 10), and 5 fouls.

And once again, a young 23 year old Shaq...at the same age Hakeem was when a 39 year old Kareem was just carpet-bombing Hakeem with five H2H games of 33 ppg on .634 shooting. (And don't give me this CRAP that Hakeem GUARED Kareem in the WCF's...it was SAMPSON who held the 39 year old Kareem to "only" 27 ppg in that series.)

Of course, when Shaq just MURDERED Hakeem a few years later, well, Hakeem was old. Sure, EVERY EXCUSE for Hakeem. He was young. He was old. His teammates weren't any good (even when he had Drexler and Barkley at the same time)...blah, blah, blah.

Hakeem was the game's greatest LOSER. Plain-and-simple.

[juju151111]

DUNCAN??? The TWO-TIME MVP. The THREE-TIME FMVP. FOUR RINGS. The Duncan who never had less than a 50 win season (except in a strike season, and then he won a title), and SEVERAL 60+ win teams.

And I see that you didn't mention Moses, who was CLEARLY a more dominant player at his peak (and his peak was longer as well.)

Hakeem has NO CASE over Duncan...and considerably less against Shaq. As for Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem...

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Give Hakeem Parker,Bowen,Robinson, and manu

[millwad]

Game two...YOU mentioned the FIRST HALF. So, while Shaq just BURIED Hakeem in the second half, it doesn't count?


The game was over, you idiot. Shaq's points came in garbage time when the game was decided. God, how stupid are you?

Hakeem killed the game in the first half while Shaq couldn't even make a shot... And he didn't bury anyone in the second half, you moron, he made 12 FG's in total in the whole freaking game.

You have no clue, that's why you're so obsessed with stats, you don't watch the games.. Your analyze of game 2 was the worst I've EVER seen.

So suddenly a player who gets shitted on in the first half and first starts to score when the game is over gets credited for "crushing" his opponent... This shows how little basketball you really understand. Shaq's points came when his team was down crazy much and the game was already finito, stop watching the boxscores, you moron.

The game is on youtube.

[pauk]

As players/talents alone its pretty damn close..... but it is so difficult to compare two completely different superstars, they had different size, positions, skillsets/talents, gamestyles...

You can compare their career accomplishments tho.... and there is not much you can discuss, Larry Bird achieved a bit more however you twist and turn it, but Hakeem is not so far behind, not on my list anyways... i rank their careers like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar/Kobe/Julius

[jlauber]

As players/talents alone its pretty damn close..... but it is so difficult to compare two completely different superstars, they had different size, positions, skillsets/talents, gamestyles...

You can compare their career accomplishments tho.... and there is not much you can discuss, Larry Bird achieved a bit more however you twist and turn it, but Hakeem is not so far behind, not on my list anyways... i rank their careers like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar/Kobe/Julius

Excellent list, although Bird is too high (he wasn't nearly as dominant as Shaq, nor for as long.) And, you forgot Moses, who was a greater scorer and rebounder than Hakeem (and held a 3-1 edge in MVP balloting.)

H2H, Moses battered a much more prime Kareem in their 40 games, while a 38-42 year old Kareem outscored a 22-26 year old Hakeem, and outshot him by a .610 to .512 margin in their 23 H2H's. And a 38-39 year old Kareem just DESTROYED a 22-23 Hakeem.

[millwad]

Gaylauber, you proved that you actually have no idea about the '95 series and that you only rely on boxscores..

How does my dikk feel in your mother's throat? *GAG*

[oolalaa]

Excellent list, although Bird is too high (he wasn't nearly as dominant as Shaq, nor for as long.) And, you forgot Moses, who was a greater scorer and rebounder than Hakeem (and held a 3-1 edge in MVP balloting.)

H2H, Moses battered a much more prime Kareem in their 40 games, while a 38-42 year old Kareem outscored a 22-26 year old Hakeem, and outshot him by a .610 to .512 margin in their 23 H2H's. And a 38-39 year old Kareem just DESTROYED a 22-23 Hakeem.

Your usual hypocrisy.

Was Magic any where near as dominant as Shaq? Of course not, because let's face it, who was? (This is not a cue for you to go on another Wilt rampage).

This is what is so bizarre. You seem to think that Magic was on a whole other level above Bird - that Bird isn't even worthy of being in the conversation with him. This is absurd. They were neck a neck for a good 8 years. It was only from 87/88 onwards that Magic really separated himself, partly because of Bird's injuries.


And Moses was "a greater scorer" than Hakeem? You should be embarrassed of that comment.

[jlauber]

Your usual hypocrisy.

Was Magic any where near as dominant as Shaq? Of course not, because let's face it, who was? (This is not a cue for you to go on another Wilt rampage).

This is what is so bizarre. You seem to think that Magic was on a whole other level above Bird - that Bird isn't even worthy of being in the conversation with him. This is absurd. They were neck a neck for a good 8 years. It was only from 87/88 onwards that Magic really separated himself, partly because of Bird's injuries.


And Moses was "a greater scorer" than Hakeem? You should be embarrassed of that comment.

Magic was better in H2H's, won more rings, more FMVP (and he should he have won another in '88) was a far better post-season player, and had a better overall career than Bird. Not even close.

As for Moses...he had a season of 31.1 ppg (as well as leading the league in rebounding that year.) His second best season matches Hakeem's best.

Not to mention that Moses POUNDED Kareem in bulk of their 40 H2H's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255307

Which was something that Hakeem NEVER did.

Moses was the most dominant player in the league from '79 thru '85 (sorry Kareem, Bird and Magic.) And his THREE MVP's were an indication of just how dominant he was compared to Hakeem.

[oolalaa]

Magic was better in H2H's, won more rings, more FMVP (and he should he have won another in '88) was a far better post-season player, and had a better overall career than Bird. Not even close.

As for Moses...he had a season of 31.1 ppg (as well as leading the league in rebounding that year.) His second best season matches Hakeem's best.

Not to mention that Moses POUNDED Kareem in bulk of their 40 H2H's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255307

Which was something that Hakeem NEVER did.

Moses was the most dominant player in the league from '79 thru '85 (sorry Kareem, Bird and Magic.) And his THREE MVP's were an indication of just how dominant he was compared to Hakeem.

Magic was not a FAR better post season player than Bird. I have to seriously question your evaluation of a players impact/ability and circumstance if you really believe that...


'80 - Tie. Would the Lakers have won the championship with Bird on their team instead of Magic? Yes. Yes they would. Kareem was the best player in the league.

'81 - Bird. Magic was in team killing mode.

'82 - Magic. Bird's worst post season.

'83 - Tie. Bird was sub par in the playoffs but so was the entire team (they flat out revolted against Bill Fitch). Was Magic really much better? He went from shooting 55% in the reg season to 49% in the playoffs and L.A got trounced by Philly in the finals.

'84 - Bird. Tragic Johnson.

'85 - Magic. L.A beat Boston.

'86 - Bird. GOAT talk officially began.

'87 - Tie. Bird was the same player in '87 as in '86. He dragged a ridiculously banged up Celtics to the finals. This was Magic at his peak.

'88 - Magic. Age and injuries finally caught up with Bird and the Celtics.

Bird - 3
Magic - 3
Tie - 3



Moses was the best player in the league from '79 - '85?

Ye from '81 - '83 I would agree. But what happened in the '84 and '85 playoffs?? CHOOOKE is what happened. Those 2 years really hurt his legacy for me.

And I'm still waiting for you to take back your 'Moses was a better scorer than Hakeem' comment.....

[TheBigVeto]

Magic was not a FAR better post season player than Bird. I have to seriously question your evaluation of a players impact/ability and circumstance if you really believe that...


Don't worry about that retard. He is actually a Magic/Kobe/Faker fan disguised as Wilt superfan. His opinions on basketball are worthless.

[lbj23clutch]

Magic was better in H2H's, won more rings, more FMVP (and he should he have won another in '88) was a far better post-season player, and had a better overall career than Bird. Not even close.

As for Moses...he had a season of 31.1 ppg (as well as leading the league in rebounding that year.) His second best season matches Hakeem's best.

Not to mention that Moses POUNDED Kareem in bulk of their 40 H2H's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255307

Which was something that Hakeem NEVER did.

Moses was the most dominant player in the league from '79 thru '85 (sorry Kareem, Bird and Magic.) And his THREE MVP's were an indication of just how dominant he was compared to Hakeem.
Hakeem>Wilt

[jlauber]

Magic was not a FAR better post season player than Bird. I have to seriously question your evaluation of a players impact/ability and circumstance if you really believe that...


'80 - Tie. Would the Lakers have won the championship with Bird on their team instead of Magic? Yes. Yes they would. Kareem was the best player in the league.

'81 - Bird. Magic was in team killing mode.

'82 - Magic. Bird's worst post season.

'83 - Tie. Bird was sub par in the playoffs but so was the entire team (they flat out revolted against Bill Fitch). Was Magic really much better? He went from shooting 55% in the reg season to 49% in the playoffs and L.A got trounced by Philly in the finals.

'84 - Bird. Tragic Johnson.

'85 - Magic. L.A beat Boston.

'86 - Bird. GOAT talk officially began.

'87 - Tie. Bird was the same player in '87 as in '86. He dragged a ridiculously banged up Celtics to the finals. This was Magic at his peak.

'88 - Magic. Age and injuries finally caught up with Bird and the Celtics.

Bird - 3
Magic - 3
Tie - 3



Moses was the best player in the league from '79 - '85?

Ye from '81 - '83 I would agree. But what happened in the '84 and '85 playoffs?? CHOOOKE is what happened. Those 2 years really hurt his legacy for me.

And I'm still waiting for you to take back your 'Moses was a better scorer than Hakeem' comment.....

'80? Are you kidding me? Magic was a FAR better player, both in the regular season, AND ESPECIALLY in the post-season. He was the well-deserved FMVP and with a greater game six than Bird EVER had in ANY of his Finals (and with Kareem at home watching the game from his couch.) BTW, claiming that Bird would have won with Kareem is a pure fallacy. How about Magic in '90 and '91, and without Kareem? 63-19 and 58-24 records, and yet another trip to the Finals with a cast of over-the-hill and injured players (and even himself no longer at his peak.)


"Tragic Johnson" in the '84 Finals... 18.1 ppg, led LA in rebounding (as he often did) at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the floor (while Bird shot .484 and Kareem shot .481.) Yep, that was Magic at his WORST.

'87? Bird wasn't even the second best player in that series. Runaway MVP Magic was WAY better... and in EVERY category. Magic outscored Bird, and by a solid margin. Magic nearly outrebounded Bird. He outassisted Bird by a HUGE margin. He outshot Bird by a staggering .541 to .445 margin. And he even outshot Bird from the line. No WAY Bird was the better player at ALL during that season.

And after that, Magic RAN AWAY with being a better player.

So, even if I give you '84, in which Bird hardly outplayed Magic (and, if Magic just hit ONE more FT in game four, this would not even be a topic for discussion) that would still be Magic in '80, '82, '85, '87 and then '88, '89, '90, and '91. So, Bird wins in '81 (even while shooting .419 in his Finals), '84 (which was CLOSE), and '86.

A ONE-SIDED ROMP for Magic.,..and it was not even CLOSE.

GTFO.

[millwad]

Jlauber is an idiot, it's pretty obvious now that he doesn't watch the games, he only watches boxscores..

Proof? Go back one page and see him "analyzing" the '95 NBA finals. I asked him to break down the games so it would be clear how little he actually knows.

He claims that Hakeem got crushed by Shaq in game 2 of that series, that's the same game where Hakeem totally outplayed Shaq in the first half and put up 22 points. Shaq had a terrible first half and combined with Anderson they made 5-21 shots and Shaq's points in that game came in garbage time and when the game was over.

I mean, only an idiot would claim the things Jlauber did, and it's interesting that he and 32dayz (who got banned for trolling) are the only one's who claims that Shaq outplayed Hakeem in '95 on ISH.. Jlauber who's so obsessed with newspapers and articles disses them all when it's about that series and he even disses Shaq's own comments about that series..

Jlauber, you're getting owned, as usual. Clueless idiot.

[jlauber]

Jlauber is an idiot, it's pretty obvious now that he doesn't watch the games, he only watches boxscores..

Proof? Go back one page and see him "analyzing" the '95 NBA finals. I asked him to break down the games so it would be clear how little he actually knows.

He claims that Hakeem got crushed by Shaq in game 2 of that series, that's the same game where Hakeem totally outplayed Shaq in the first half and put up 22 points. Shaq had a terrible first half and combined with Anderson they made 5-21 shots and Shaq's points in that game came in garbage time and when the game was over.

I mean, only an idiot would claim the things Jlauber did, and it's interesting that he and 32dayz (who got banned for trolling) are the only one's who claims that Shaq outplayed Hakeem in '95 on ISH.. Jlauber who's so obsessed with newspapers and articles disses them all when it's about that series and he even disses Shaq's own comments about that series..

Jlauber, you're getting owned, as usual. Clueless idiot.

Basketball is a 48 minute game you clown. I recall the typical "Wilt-bashers" bringing up PORTIONS of the '62 ECF's, in some DESPERATE attempt to disparage Wilt as some kind of "stats-padder." And it was not posters who cared anything for Russell, BTW, it was the posters who always went out of their way to slam Chamberlain.

Fortunately, NYCelt84 provided a box score of a game in 1960, in which Wilt poured in nearly 50 points against Russell. In that game, Boston had a 20 point lead in the third quarter, but the Warriors came back to win the game.

As in this case, a Shaq who obviously just wore Hakeem out in that second half. The man POUNDED Hakeem throughout the entire series, too. Once again, those that actually watched that series, would attest to the fact that Shaq's TEAMMATES were AWFUL. His teammates were dramatically outshot from the field, and the arc...and on top of that, they were constantly putting Hakeem's TEAMMATES on the line.

Hakeem outscored Shaq in that series, 32 ppg to 28 ppg, BUT, he averaged 29 FGAs to Shaq's 19. Shaq outshot him from the field by a massive .595 to .483 margin. And, he POUNDED Hakeem at the line, too. That, combined with easily outrebounding him, outassisting him (and here again, how many assists did he lose because his teammates were missing wide open shots), and even outblocking him.

Of course, if we are going to use your stupid analogy, then let's dispense with any more mentioning of Kareem outscoring Wilt in the '72 regular season (and WCF's)...as Wilt's Lakers went 4-1 in the regular season (with two relative blowout wins), and then 4-2 in the WCF's (and yet another massacre in game five.) Obviously, Wilt was cruising en route to those wins, right?

[jlauber]

And one more time for those that may have missed it...

Here are ALL 28 H2H games between Hakeem and Shaq, including their playoffs...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Once again, the Hakeem-lovers only point to a HANDFUL of games in his entire 18 season career, and attempt to use them as a measuring stick in his overall career.

Hakeem was a player who could get his team ONE win in the first round of the playoffs, and little else, in his ENTIRE career. He was THE biggest "loser" of the all-time "greats." And even in one of his two rings, he was fortunate enough to not have had to face an MJ-led team.

[millwad]

Basketball is a 48 minute game you clown. I recall the typical "Wilt-bashers" bringing up PORTIONS of the '62 ECF's, in some DESPERATE attempt to disparage Wilt as some kind of "stats-padder." And it was not posters who cared anything for Russell, BTW, it was the posters who always went out of their way to slam Chamberlain.

You idiot, it's simple.
When you play a game and one player completely dominates his opponent to that extent that the game is basically over, like Hakeem did in the first half while Shaq couldn't get a shot to go in. And then when the game is over and Shaq starts to score in garbage time, then the edge doesn't go over to Shaq because he started to score when the game was over. How stupid are you? Shaq's points came when the game was in garbage time, this only proves that you only watch the boxscores.




As in this case, a Shaq who obviously just wore Hakeem out in that second half. The man POUNDED Hakeem throughout the entire series, too. Once again, those that actually watched that series, would attest to the fact that Shaq's TEAMMATES were AWFUL. His teammates were dramatically outshot from the field, and the arc...and on top of that, they were constantly putting Hakeem's TEAMMATES on the line.


No, he didn't wore Hakeem out, idiot. Shaq scored his points in garbage time when the game was already finito, haha, you bloody retard. What don't you understand? Hakeem scored 22 points in the first half to ice the game, Shaq was terrible in the first half of the game and couldn't hit a shot, Shaq's scoring came when the game was over, IN GARBAGE TIME with his team being down 20ish.. And I'm not talking about teammates still, I am talking about Hakeem vs Shaq in the series and that Hakeem easily got game 2 and 4 while game 3 at best was a tie while Shaq got game 1.



Hakeem outscored Shaq in that series, 32 ppg to 28 ppg, BUT, he averaged 29 FGAs to Shaq's 19. Shaq outshot him from the field by a massive .595 to .483 margin. And, he POUNDED Hakeem at the line, too. That, combined with easily outrebounding him, outassisting him (and here again, how many assists did he lose because his teammates were missing wide open shots), and even outblocking him.

Haha, you're so full of shit. You're obsessed with stats because you didn't the see games, you didn't see Hakeem massacre the Magic in game 2 where he ice'd the game after half-time, you didn't see game 4 when Shaq had nothing to say about the game when Hakeem swept him in that series.

And no, Shaq didn't pound Hakeem from the FT-line, he made 6 more FT's on 16 more attempts, moron. And haha, easily outassisting Hakeem... :facepalm

The difference was .8 assists per game between the two of them while Shaq averaged 2.5 more turnovers per game.. Haha, you idiot, Shaq turned over the ball crazy much in this series, he had 21 turnovers in 4 games.. Go and check his turnover/assist ratio.. 5.25 turnovers per game while having 6.3 assists per game..

I guess that you're going to blame the turnovers Shaq had on his teammates, haha..



Of course, if we are going to use your stupid analogy, then let's dispense with any more mentioning of Kareem outscoring Wilt in the '72 regular season (and WCF's)...as Wilt's Lakers went 4-1 in the regular season (with two relative blowout wins), and then 4-2 in the WCF's. Obviously, Wilt was cruising en route to those wins, right?

Haha, the difference was that Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game on better FG%, he didn't get outscored, and he didn't get swept like Shaq did even though Kareem had the better team around him. And Kareem outrebounded Wilt in 3 of the games, outassisted him in the series and held Wilt to terrible FG%..

It's pathetic how you call the '72 series "Wilt murdering Kareem" but suddenly your logic doesn't work the same way for the '95 finals.. And you love them newspapers, why do you diss the media who says that Hakeem outplayed Shaq? :facepalm

[millwad]

And one more time for those that may have missed it...

Here are ALL 28 H2H games between Hakeem and Shaq, including their playoffs...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Once again, the Hakeem-lovers only point to a HANDFUL of games in his entire 18 season career, and attempt to use them as a measuring stick in his overall career.

Hakeem was a player who could get his team ONE win in the first round of the playoffs, and little else, in his ENTIRE career. He was THE biggest "loser" of the all-time "greats." And even in one of his two rings, he was fortunate enough to not have had to face an MJ-led team.

Haha, please, mention a 36 year old Hakeem vs Shaq again, please!
Hakeem did what he had to do vs Shaq in the finals, SWEEPING and outplaying him, your fetisch with regular season games is due the fact that Wilt always shrunk in the playoffs compared to what he did in the regular season.

And haha, Hakeem being the biggest loser, haha... Comes from a guy who is crazy obsessed with Wilt who only could stand around while Russell one them rings and who only could win when others took over the scoring... :facepalm

Hakeem won just as many rings as Wilt, the difference was that Hakeem didn't need no HOF:ers and all-stars like Wilt, he did in '94 with a 2nd best scorer in Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting. Wilt could barely win with HOF:ers and all-stars who even took over the scoring in the playoffs..

And the loser Wilt is the same guy who choked from the FT-line resulting in his team loooooosing a ring.. SUCK THAT, JLAUBER...

[oolalaa]

'80? Are you kidding me? Magic was a FAR better player, both in the regular season, AND ESPECIALLY in the post-season. He was the well-deserved FMVP and with a greater game six than Bird EVER had in ANY of his Finals (and with Kareem at home watching the game from his couch.) BTW, claiming that Bird would have won with Kareem is a pure fallacy. How about Magic in '90 and '91, and without Kareem? 63-19 and 58-24 records, and yet another trip to the Finals with a cast of over-the-hill and injured players (and even himself no longer at his peak.)


"Tragic Johnson" in the '84 Finals... 18.1 ppg, led LA in rebounding (as he often did) at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the floor (while Bird shot .484 and Kareem shot .481.) Yep, that was Magic at his WORST.

'87? Bird wasn't even the second best player in that series. Runaway MVP Magic was WAY better... and in EVERY category. Magic outscored Bird, and by a solid margin. Magic nearly outrebounded Bird. He outassisted Bird by a HUGE margin. He outshot Bird by a staggering .541 to .445 margin. And he even outshot Bird from the line. No WAY Bird was the better player at ALL during that season.

And after that, Magic RAN AWAY with being a better player.

So, even if I give you '84, in which Bird hardly outplayed Magic (and, if Magic just hit ONE more FT in game four, this would not even be a topic for discussion) that would still be Magic in '80, '82, '85, '87 and then '88, '89, '90, and '91. So, Bird wins in '81 (even while shooting .419 in his Finals), '84 (which was CLOSE), and '86.

A ONE-SIDED ROMP for Magic.,..and it was not even CLOSE.

GTFO.

Utter nonsense once again. The lack of objectivity is staggering.

I'll just say a couple of things...

- Who won rookie of the year in 79/80? Oh that's right it was Bird, not Magic. GTFO

- Bird wasn't even the second best player in that '87 finals? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. McHale, Parish and Ainge were all banged up and Walton was a non factor. That's only Bird's 4 best teammates....all playing hurt and below their best. Like I said, Bird was a good in '87 as he was in '86. If the health of L.A and Boston was switched in the finals, the result would have been reversed.


And still I'm still waiting for you to take back that 'Moses was a greater scorer than Hakeem comment'. There is no possible way you are using just 1 REGULAR season to make that claim, is there??

[Champ]

Utter nonsense once again. The lack of objectivity is staggering.

I'll just say a couple of things...

- Who won rookie of the year in 79/80? Oh that's right it was Bird, not Magic. GTFO

- Bird wasn't even the second best player in that '87 finals? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. McHale, Parish and Ainge were all banged up and Walton was a non factor. That's only Bird's 4 best teammates....all playing hurt and below their best. Like I said, Bird was a good in '87 as he was in '86. If the health of L.A and Boston was switched in the finals, the result would have been reversed.

Good post.

[KevinNYC]

I understand that part but Bird's accomplishments, stats, and dominance is not so much superior to Hakeem's that it puts away the fact that Hakeem was the better player than Bird was in his peak.

You can and I might even argue that Hakeem had the greatest peak of all-time but he did not sustain that dominance for that long compared to the GOAT all-time candidates like MJ, Russell, KAJ, etc.

The problem is that Bird did not sustain his dominance for long either like Hakeem, and when Bird was dominant, he wasn't even more dominant than Hakeem was.

Larry Bird from his rookie year up to the year both his Achilles tendons snapped was never less than the 4th best player in the league and fourth was his rookie year. For three years he was number one and for four years he was number two. His peak is simply greater than Hakeem's

MVP Award Shares
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1)
1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)
Career 5.693 (3)

Hakeem Olajuwon has two years when he was considered the number one or number two player in the league.

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.015 (12)
1985-86 NBA 0.247 (4)
1986-87 NBA 0.037 (7)
1987-88 NBA 0.050 (7)
1988-89 NBA 0.211 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.070 (7)
1990-91 NBA 0.004 (18)
1992-93 NBA 0.660 (2)
1993-94 NBA 0.880 (1)
1994-95 NBA 0.140 (5)
1995-96 NBA 0.211 (4)
1996-97 NBA 0.083 (7)
1998-99 NBA 0.003 (13)
Career 2.611 (16)

Hakeem Olajuwon

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.015 (12)
1985-86 NBA 0.247 (4)
1986-87 NBA 0.037 (7)
1987-88 NBA 0.050 (7)
1988-89 NBA 0.211 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.070 (7)
1990-91 NBA 0.004 (18)
1992-93 NBA 0.660 (2)
1993-94 NBA 0.880 (1)
1994-95 NBA 0.140 (5)
1995-96 NBA 0.211 (4)
1996-97 NBA 0.083 (7)
1998-99 NBA 0.003 (13)
Career 2.611 (16)

I think a better question is why Hakeem considered a better player than Moses Malone who was a three time MVP and has more career MVP shares.
Career 2.873 (13)

[millwad]

Larry Bird from his rookie year up to the year both his Achilles tendons snapped was never less than the 4th best player in the league and fourth was his rookie year. For three years he was number one and for four years he was number two. His peak is simply greater than Hakeem's

MVP Award Shares
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1)
1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)
Career 5.693 (3)

Hakeem Olajuwon has two years when he was considered the number one or number two player in the league.

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.015 (12)
1985-86 NBA 0.247 (4)
1986-87 NBA 0.037 (7)
1987-88 NBA 0.050 (7)
1988-89 NBA 0.211 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.070 (7)
1990-91 NBA 0.004 (18)
1992-93 NBA 0.660 (2)
1993-94 NBA 0.880 (1)
1994-95 NBA 0.140 (5)
1995-96 NBA 0.211 (4)
1996-97 NBA 0.083 (7)
1998-99 NBA 0.003 (13)
Career 2.611 (16)

Hakeem Olajuwon

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.015 (12)
1985-86 NBA 0.247 (4)
1986-87 NBA 0.037 (7)
1987-88 NBA 0.050 (7)
1988-89 NBA 0.211 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.070 (7)
1990-91 NBA 0.004 (18)
1992-93 NBA 0.660 (2)
1993-94 NBA 0.880 (1)
1994-95 NBA 0.140 (5)
1995-96 NBA 0.211 (4)
1996-97 NBA 0.083 (7)
1998-99 NBA 0.003 (13)
Career 2.611 (16)

I think a better question is why Hakeem considered a better player than Moses Malone who was a three time MVP and has more career MVP shares.
Career 2.873 (13)

Even though I don't agree with Bird being better than Hakeem I can buy your argument, but in that case, that must mean that Nash is better than Hakeem as well and Shaq too. Being on a better team obviously helped Bird to get higher on the MVP-rankings, you never see a guy on a semi-good or mediocre team get highly ranked on MVP-lists and considering all the years Hakeem played with crap and never made it far in the playoffs, it affected him on the MVP-ranking.

I just don't feel that Bird's edge on offense can be compared to Hakeem's huge edge on the defensive end when you compare the two of them. But still, I get where you're coming from

Regarding Hakeem vs Moses..

Hakeem was better on the offensive end and the defensive end, the only edge Moses had over Hakeem was his rebounding. People may claim that scoring should be an edge for Moses due having a higher scoring peak but that is not much worth, Moses shot with worse FG% and especially in the playoffs. His FG% in the playoffs is pretty terrible a la 22.1 points per game on 47% shooting, compared to Hakeem's 25.9 point per game average (highest ppg average among all centers of all time in the playoffs) on 52% shooting.

And then we have shotblocking which was an edge a la Hakeem, steals was an edge for Hakeem, assists was an edge for Hakeem etc..

Moses only has the edge in rebounding, Hakeem was better..

[KevinNYC]

Even though I don't agree with Bird being better than Hakeem I can buy your argument, but in that case, that must mean that Nash is better than Hakeem as well and Shaq too. Being on a better team obviously helped Bird to get higher on the MVP-rankings, you never see a guy on a semi-good or mediocre team get highly ranked on MVP-lists and considering all the years Hakeem played with crap and never made it far in the playoffs, it affected him on the MVP-ranking.

I just don't feel that Bird's edge on offense can be compared to Hakeem's huge edge on the defensive end when you compare the two of them. But still, I get where you're coming from

Regarding Hakeem vs Moses..

Hakeem was better on the offensive end and the defensive end, the only edge Moses had over Hakeem was his rebounding. People may claim that scoring should be an edge for Moses due having a higher scoring peak but that is not much worth, Moses shot with worse FG% and especially in the playoffs. His FG% in the playoffs is pretty terrible a la 22.1 points per game on 47% shooting, compared to Hakeem's 25.9 point per game average (highest ppg average among all centers of all time in the playoffs) on 52% shooting.

And then we have shotblocking which was an edge a la Hakeem, steals was an edge for Hakeem, assists was an edge for Hakeem etc..

Moses only has the edge in rebounding, Hakeem was better..

Both Olajuwon and Shaq are above Nash in Career MVP shares and Shaq is far ahead. When you look at Nash's career MVP shares, you can tell, that you're talking about three peak seasons. Also that he wasn't even considered until his 6th year in the league.

I would have Olajuwon over Moses too because of his all around game, but to me they are far closer that most here have them. After they played Olajuwon's reputation has soared while Moses's has dropped. However several years Moses was simply the most feared guy in the NBA. Took a bad Rockets team to the Finals when they started clicking late in the season. His rep has fallen because his style of play wasn't highlight worthy, but it was crazy effective. For folks who didn't see Moses play, imagine if Dennis Rodman was 6'11 and a much better scorer minus Rodman's man to man defense. There's no stat kept for effort, but Moses just worked crazy hard and defenders tended to bounce off him like bowling pins.

I don't think Hakeem ever had the rep for several years as being the hardest guy to stop in the league.

Moses FG% was never great, but his offensive effectiness usually was because his offensive rebounding was so incredible in fact he would often take shots he knew he probably wasn't going to make, because his second and third jumps were going to be quicker and he would get the rebound and the basket. Moses never got style points, but he got the points.

[millwad]

Both Olajuwon and Shaq are above Nash in Career MVP shares and Shaq is far ahead. When you look at Nash's career MVP shares, you can tell, that you're talking about three peak seasons. Also that he wasn't even considered until his 6th year in the league.

If you want to watch blindly on the MVP shares then Hakeem suddenly is behind Moses, DRob, Garnett, Pettit, Bryant, Duncan, Karl Malon, James etc.. MVP's is a misleading award and I put some worth in it but I never make a judgement just on MVP's or MVP shares. Freaking Karl Malone is 7th on that list, when was the last time anyone put in Malone in the top 10.. That choking bastard.



I would have Olajuwon over Moses too because of his all around game, but to me they are far closer that most here have them. After they played Olajuwon's reputation has soared while Moses's has dropped. However several years Moses was simply the most feared guy in the NBA. Took a bad Rockets team to the Finals when they started clicking late in the season. His rep has fallen because his style of play wasn't highlight worthy, but it was crazy effective. For folks who didn't see Moses play, imagine if Dennis Rodman was 6'11 and a much better scorer minus Rodman's man to man defense. There's no stat kept for effort, but Moses just worked crazy hard and defenders tended to bounce off him like bowling pins.

I never said it's a huge difference between the two of them, that would be stupidity. And even though I've seen a couple of his games I can't at all claim that I'm any expert so don't get me wrong, I'm not acting like I'm some self-proclaimed historian a la Jlauber, just a fan of the game.

I have 2-3 of the games from the 81 finals when he played for the Rockets, downloaded from sport-scene I think it was or PB. And I've never seen anyone fighting and working that hard on the boards, extremely spectacular. Especially considering the fact that Moses wasn't the most athletic guy or that tall either, he was just a hard worker. I also feel like his FG% wasn't that bad really because if you see him play, the guy had thousands of plays where he went for a lay-up or shot and grabbed his own rebounds multiple times and then finally got it in. Sure, it may look bad in the box scores but at the same time, nothing but spectacular.

Here's game 5 from that series btw; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE-7rNgTFd8

But bottom line, Hakeem was the better of them two, both offensively and on defense, but no, it wasn't any huge margin of course..

[KevinNYC]

Also someone upthread seemed to imply that Ralph Sampson did coke.

I would love to see the evidence of that.

[millwad]

Also someone upthread seemed to imply that Ralph Sampson did coke.

I would love to see the evidence of that.

Coke or choke, haha?

He probably did both..

Houston had troubles in the mid 80's with cocaine, both Wiggins and Lloyd were banned and Lucas had major issues as well with both cocaine and alcohol.

People claimed that Hakeem had used some as well but he was always clean whenever tested and he once punched his teammate Robert Reid in practice, haha, when he heard that Robert had spread them rumours.

[emaugust]

The only thing I would like to add to this thread is that Larry Bird doesn't get mentioned much as a passer - but he was an amazing passer. I used to think he was just a spot up guy but he really had a lot of tools.

[KevinNYC]

Coke or choke, haha?

He probably did both..

Houston had troubles in the mid 80's with cocaine, both Wiggins and Lloyd were banned and Lucas had major issues as well with both cocaine and alcohol.

People claimed that Hakeem had used some as well but he was always clean whenever tested and he once punched his teammate Robert Reid in practice, haha, when he heard that Robert had spread them rumours.

The only article I could find said that Sampson was clean and tried to help out John Lucas after he went into rehab. Lucas would run his plans for the night vs Sampson and Sampson would veto them if he thought the place or the people would be wrong for Lucas.

[jlauber]

Larry Bird from his rookie year up to the year both his Achilles tendons snapped was never less than the 4th best player in the league and fourth was his rookie year. For three years he was number one and for four years he was number two. His peak is simply greater than Hakeem's

MVP Award Shares
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1)
1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)
Career 5.693 (3)

Hakeem Olajuwon has two years when he was considered the number one or number two player in the league.

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.015 (12)
1985-86 NBA 0.247 (4)
1986-87 NBA 0.037 (7)
1987-88 NBA 0.050 (7)
1988-89 NBA 0.211 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.070 (7)
1990-91 NBA 0.004 (18)
1992-93 NBA 0.660 (2)
1993-94 NBA 0.880 (1)
1994-95 NBA 0.140 (5)
1995-96 NBA 0.211 (4)
1996-97 NBA 0.083 (7)
1998-99 NBA 0.003 (13)
Career 2.611 (16)

Hakeem Olajuwon

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.015 (12)
1985-86 NBA 0.247 (4)
1986-87 NBA 0.037 (7)
1987-88 NBA 0.050 (7)
1988-89 NBA 0.211 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.070 (7)
1990-91 NBA 0.004 (18)
1992-93 NBA 0.660 (2)
1993-94 NBA 0.880 (1)
1994-95 NBA 0.140 (5)
1995-96 NBA 0.211 (4)
1996-97 NBA 0.083 (7)
1998-99 NBA 0.003 (13)
Career 2.611 (16)

I think a better question is why Hakeem considered a better player than Moses Malone who was a three time MVP and has more career MVP shares.
Career 2.873 (13)

100% agreed. I have been saying the same thing for years now...

[OldSchoolBBall]

In terms of individual play and not accomplishments, you could argue that Hakeem was better as a individual player in terms of defense and scoring. Bird was a pretty good scorer himself

Hakeem isn't even close to as good of a scorer as Bird. Not even close.

[D-Wade316]

1981 NBA Finals:
Bird - 15.3ppg
Maxwell - 17.7ppg(FMVP)

[jlauber]

Hakeem isn't even close to as good of a scorer as Bird. Not even close.


And aside from a couple of playoff series...and in the rest of Hakeem's entire 18 season career, he was never even remotely close to being the best scorer in HIS own era.

Just ridiculous how these Hakeem-lovers are twisting ACTUAL history.

I have long blown away all of these ridiculous assertions.

Scoring? Take a look at this list and tell me when you find even a PRIME Hakeem's name on it...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_season.html


He was NOT a great rebounder. Hell, he was outrebounded in most of his three Finals series, and when paired with a 6-6 Barkley, he was crushed by Charles on the glass. He was NOWHERE NEAR the best rebounder of his era.

Need proof? Don't bother to look until you are near the END of this list...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_per_g_season.html



Defense? How can anyone claim that he was on some legendary level? He didn't win as many DPOY's as 6-7 Wallace or Mutombo, and even Eaton won as many.

Check out defensive win shares...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

And how about Defensive ratings...which doesn't include players like Russell, Wilt, and Thurmond...

Oh, BTW, start looking at the #63 slot...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

Shot blocking? My god, he was NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the best shot-blocker of HIS era, much less of all-time (he would be MILES behind Russell and Wilt...both of whom were KNOWN to be MILES ahead of Kareem.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_season.html

Once again, if we had Wilt's and Russell's blocks per game, Hakeem would not been on that list until another 25 slots...

FG%? :roll: :roll: :roll:

He doesn't even show up on this list...which goes to 250 ...and if it did continue, he would another 100 or more spots below it...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg_pct_season.html

Hakeem's BEST season in FG% was .538, and not coincidently occurred in a league that it's HIGHEST FG% in NBA HISTORY. There were 30-52 TEAMs shooting .504, and the entire Laker TEAM shot .548!

He was no more than ordinary in terms of efficiency.


Yet, with all of this MASSIVE evidence, some here attempt to claim him as a TOP-FIVE player of all-time!

[Whoah10115]

Hakeem led the league in rebounding twice. He did that while putting up 24PPG and being the best defender in the game.



Please don't try and suggest he wasn't an elite rebounder. When he won his first MVP he had a career rebounding average of 12.7PPG and they went down after.



And what is this shit about Hakeem's defense? What the shit are you talking about? Hakeem is one of the best shot-blockers ever and he did it while averaging over 2 steals a game like 4 or 5 times, playing every switch, manning the pain, playing every lane, boxing out and going for every rebound, taking every post assignment.



He didn't win as many DPOTY's as Ben Wallace or Dikembe and who gives a shit? Up until Dwight, those two were the only ones to win more than twice. And the only other players to win twice were Moncrief, Eaton, Rodman and Hakeem.



How many of those guys were great offensive players as well? More importantly, who cares on what someone else voted. I can argue Pippen should have won it in 94 and he definitely should have won Dikembe's first in 95. I can argue that Hakeem should have won Rodman's first in 90.




Larry Bird, as I said before, is Larry Bird. So this thread is stupid. But don't play down Hakeem. With much respect, that's a bias playing in.



And don't list what Wilt and Russell did. The fact is that no one else will put up those numbers because the eras are different. Russell and Wilt could be just as good today as they were in their day, but they wouldn't put up the same numbers. The suggestion they would is arbitrary and the fact that they wouldn't invalidates how far down the list Hakeem is.



Stats, with context, please.

[StateOfMind12]

Hakeem isn't even close to as good of a scorer as Bird. Not even close.
Is that why Hakeem's post-season and Finals scoring is higher than Bird's and more efficient than Bird's? :rolleyes:

There is nothing I hate more than player's greatness being based off of reputation more than off of ability and accomplishments.



Larry Bird, as I said before, is Larry Bird. So this thread is stupid. But don't play down Hakeem.
Good thing nobody cares what you have to say.

[chazzy]

Shot blocking? My god, he was NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the best shot-blocker of HIS era
What??

[jlauber]

Hakeem led the league in rebounding twice and has also been second. He did that while putting up 24PPG and being the best defender in the game.



Please don't try and suggest he wasn't an elite rebounder. When he won his first MVP he had a career rebounding average of 12.7PPG and they went down after.



Larry Bird, as I said before, is Larry Bird. So this thread is stupid. But don't play down Hakeem.

Hakeem BARELY won two rebounding titles. He was nowhere near the best rebounder of HIS era. Even his post-season rebounding was over-rated. A PRIME Hakeem was outrebounded by a YOUNG Shaq in one Finals, and crushed by him in another playoff series. Ewing easily outrebounded him in another Finals. My god, for those claim that he didn't have any help in his '94 playoff run, his TEAMMATE, the great Otis Thorpe, easily outrebounded him.

And when he was paired with an equally as old Barkley, Charles outrebounded him by FOUR per game.

So, let's not act like he was some legendary rebounder.

And give me ANY center, in the history of the game, and against ANY other center, who averaged 32 ppg on .630 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT H2H games (and in which Hakeem DID guard Kareem BTW.) Much less against a 38 and 39 year old man. Or a PRIME Hakeem surrendering 28 ppg on .595 shooting against a barely 23 year old Shaq in the Finals.

The OVER-RATING of Hakeem on this forum is beyond belief.

[jlauber]

What??

Mark Eaton...yes Mark Eaton won MORE shot-blocking titles, and had a HIGHER average in that decade, than Hakeem did.

And once again, check out Kareem's best season of 4.1. That came a couple of years after Wilt retired. Psileas posted strong documentation of Chamberlain averaging 7-8 bpg in '72 and 6-7 bpg in his LAST season in '73. An OLD Wilt was blocking FAR more shots than a PRIME Kareem. So, what was a PRIME Chamberlain doing in the 60's (along with Russell)?

[tpols]

An OLD Wilt was blocking FAR more shots than a PRIME Kareem. So, what was a PRIME Chamberlain doing in the 60's (along with Russell)?
Probably 15-20 bpg since he's playing against a bunch of 6' scrubs.

[Whoah10115]

Is that why Hakeem's post-season and Finals scoring is higher than Bird's and more efficient than Bird's? :rolleyes:

There is nothing I hate more than player's greatness being based off of reputation more than off of ability and accomplishments.


Good thing nobody cares what you have to say.




That's not true...and the only problem is that it is completely unreasonable to suggest Hakeem is better than Bird. And yea, it's unreasonable. Even tho Bird is BETTER statistically than Hakeem, and won more titles, and got to more finals, and was better in the regular season, and won 3 straight MVP's that no one looks back at and argues.



It's with respect that I say this doesn't make any sense. In no way, shape or form, was Hakeem a better player than Larry Bird.

[jlauber]

Probably 15-20 bpg since he's playing against a bunch of 6' scrubs.

Yeah...in league's with a TON of HOF centers and where the average height of those centers were nearly identical to TODAY's NBA.

BTW, in the '72 WCF's, Chamberlain was knocking Kareem's "unblockable" skyhook all over the gym. We have a KNOWN 29 blocks of Kareem' shots, in just six games in their 28 H2H's, and the assumption simply has to be that Wilt probably blocked between 50-100 of Kareem's shots in those 28 H2H's.

[StateOfMind12]

That's not true...and the only problem is that it is completely unreasonable to suggest Hakeem is better than Bird. And yea, it's unreasonable. Even tho Bird is BETTER statistically than Hakeem, and won more titles, and got to more finals, and was better in the regular season, and won 3 straight MVP's that no one looks back at and argues.

What's not true about what I said? Hakeem was clearly a better scorer than Bird in the post-season and in the Finals.

Hakeem's playoff scoring in his peak ('92-'93 to '94-'95) - 29.8 ppg, 52.4% FG, 56.4% TS, 52.6% eFG.
Bird's playoff scoring in his peak ('83-'84-'85-'86) - 26.5 ppg, 50.0% FG, 58.4% TS, 51.5% eFG.

Hakeem's playoff scoring for his career - 25.9 ppg, 52.8% FG, 56.9% TS, 52.9% eFG
Bird's playoff scoring for his career - 23.8 ppg, 47.2% FG, 55.1% TS, 48.5% eFG


It's not my fault you are a blind homer while I'm not. It's unreasonable to say Hakeem was better even though Hakeem was better than Bird at like everything except passing/playmaking, ok. :oldlol:

[Whoah10115]

Hakeem BARELY won two rebounding titles. He was nowhere near the best rebounder of HIS era. Even his post-season rebounding was over-rated. A PRIME Hakeem was outrebounded by a YOUNG Shaq in one Finals, and crushed by him in another playoff series. Ewing easily outrebounded him in another Finals. My god, for those claim that he didn't have any help in his '94 playoff run, his TEAMMATE, the great Otis Thorpe, easily outrebounded him.

And when he was paired with an equally as old Barkley, Charles outrebounded him by FOUR per game.

So, let's not act like he was some legendary rebounder.

And give me ANY center, in the history of the game, and against ANY other center, who averaged 32 ppg on .630 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT H2H games (and in which Hakeem DID guard Kareem BTW.) Much less against a 38 and 39 year old man. Or a PRIME Hakeem surrendering 28 ppg on .595 shooting against a barely 23 year old Shaq in the Finals.

The OVER-RATING of Hakeem on this forum is beyond belief.




Barely, whatever. It's not a question of him being the greatest or whatever. He was a great rebounder.



Barkley was a better rebounder. Who cares about his height. Not only was he a better rebounder, but like I told you already, Hakeem was at 12.7RPG after his 10th season. And he never averaged 11RPG after that. Barkley got to Houston 3 years later and Hakeem fell under 10RPG. They're the same age, yea. But Barkley had lost a lot of his game and it was Hakeem's team, so Barkley went in and ate up the boards and Hakeem had already become a less physical player. Barkely averaging 13.5RPG is not a slight on Hakeem's rebounding. Hakeem was a terrific rebounder.




Shaq is one of the best players of all-time, but he is a stat-padder. If you think looking at raw stats is the correct way of concluding a player's worth, then you've already lost the argument. Shaq got his ass torched that series, regardless of what people want to now suggest. Hakeem played him worse than he played Robinson. Difference is Robinson didn't just pad his stats and played not just against Hakeem but AGAINST THE ROCKETS. Shaq got his but was overmatched.


Ewing was great in the 94 series, but Riley did a terrible job with the offense and Pat didn't get enough touches. Had he, he would have gotten the best out of Hakeem. But he didn't, and overall Hakeem was better and they won.





NOW...if you wanna look at Hakeem and say "Kareem scored a lot" and come to a conclusion, go ahead. But here's the thing. Hakeem didn't just go at Kareem. Hakeem played center against the Lakers. If he was just a single cog whose sole responsibility was Kareem, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case. He played defense against the entire Lakers team. He was the anchor, not just the post defender. He did everything.





AND WITH THAT SAID...Kareem destroyed Hakeem? In the WCF's, Hakeem had 3.4APG to Hakeem's 2APG. Kareem shot .724 from the line, to Hakeem's .700.



Why did I bring those up? Because those are the only two categories where Kareem outdid Olajuwon. Kareem scored 27PPG, on a ridiculous 6.8RPG. Hakeem averaged 11.2RPG and still had time to outscore Kareem, 31PPG. He had 2.2SPG and 4BPG. And the Rockets beat the champion Lakers, 4-1.



So how did he destroy Olajuwon? Based on some arbitrary regular season stretch? Their regular season head-to-head is in Hakeem's favor, statistically. And the WCF's Hakeem, on paper, clearly outplayed Kareem. In reality, it was more than that. He even shot much better. And Shaq did a great job of putting up great numbers in that series against Houston. And even tho he had the more talented team and even tho people actually blame Nick Anderson, they didn't win a single game, with the difference being Hakeem legitimately destroying Shaq. Shaq gives no one respect. He's been outplayed before and acted like it never happened. He doesn't say shit about Hakeem cuz in the end he realizes that's why his team didn't get a game. And you see him trying to backdoor the blame on other guys in his barber shop or wherever. So please don't bring what Hakeem allowed a barely 23year old Shaq to do. He allowed a barely 23year old Shaq to get ass squashed. So don't stick to your numbers.





BTW, just because a player outplays another head-to-head doesn't mean he's better than that player. You can have trouble with one guy but overall you can be better.

[Whoah10115]

What's not true about what I said? Hakeem was clearly a better scorer than Bird in the post-season and in the Finals.

Hakeem's playoff scoring in his peak ('92-'93 to '94-'95) - 29.8 ppg, 52.4% FG, 56.4% TS, 52.6% eFG.
Bird's playoff scoring in his peak ('83-'84-'85-'86) - 26.5 ppg, 50.0% FG, 58.4% TS, 51.5% eFG.

Hakeem's playoff scoring for his career - 25.9 ppg, 52.8% FG, 56.9% TS, 52.9% eFG
Bird's playoff scoring for his career - 23.8 ppg, 47.2% FG, 55.1% TS, 48.5% eFG


It's not my fault you are a blind homer while I'm not. It's unreasonable to say Hakeem was better even though Hakeem was better than Bird at like everything except passing/playmaking, ok. :oldlol:



You realize the playoffs are situational, right? Stats are really great in the playoffs but the playoffs are situational. Jordan has had much better nights, statistically, than the flu game. But besides the fact that he was flat beastly in that game, it was a specific situation. The playoffs don't have the regular season to balance them out.



Second, I realize Larry Bird had a much better team. I realize he was part of the greatest frontline ever. I realize he doesn't win 3 titles and get to two more finals, if he doesn't have that line. I get that. I think it's relevant when discussing a player and his rings, instead of just looking at rings. Bird did it in the toughest era ever, but I still feel I should preface my next point with this concession.


Larry Bird played with that frontline, Ainge, and Dennis Johnson. So even tho he was the best player, he wasn't as out in front as Hakeem was on his Rockets. Hakeem had plenty of series where he was great and put up great numbers, but those numbers didn't have to put up with the toll of a full postseason, because he was eliminated in the first round. That's not a knock on Olajuwon, but you should consider that when looking at career numbers. Not counting his last season in Toronto, Hakeem played in the the playoffs two more times than Bird did. And he played 24 fewer games. If you count that last season then he played in the playoffs three more times than Bird did, yet played 19 fewer games. He was not a better scorer than Bird. Not to mention Bird is the best passing non-PG ever and a true playmaker. Nobody was better at making others around him better, than Larry Bird.



So if you wanna go by those stats and come to conclusions, then go ahead. It's far from homerism or nostalgia on my end.



And BTW, what I meant about "That's not true" was in reference to one cares about what I have to say...that's just ridiculous.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What's not true about what I said? Hakeem was clearly a better scorer than Bird in the post-season and in the Finals.

Hakeem's playoff scoring in his peak ('92-'93 to '94-'95) - 29.8 ppg, 52.4% FG, 56.4% TS, 52.6% eFG.
Bird's playoff scoring in his peak ('83-'84-'85-'86) - 26.5 ppg, 50.0% FG, 58.4% TS, 51.5% eFG.

Hakeem's playoff scoring for his career - 25.9 ppg, 52.8% FG, 56.9% TS, 52.9% eFG
Bird's playoff scoring for his career - 23.8 ppg, 47.2% FG, 55.1% TS, 48.5% eFG


It's not my fault you are a blind homer while I'm not. It's unreasonable to say Hakeem was better even though Hakeem was better than Bird at like everything except passing/playmaking, ok. :oldlol:

Funny how Hakeem fans always look exclusively at playoffs, which is a smaller sample size. Bird was scoring more and on higher percentages during his peak 4 seasons than Hakeem scored from '87-'91.

[jlauber]

Barely, whatever. It's not a question of him being the greatest or whatever. He was a great rebounder.



Barkley was a better rebounder. Who cares about his height. Not only was he a better rebounder, but like I told you already, Hakeem was at 12.7RPG after his 10th season. And he never averaged 11RPG after that. Barkley got to Houston 3 years later and Hakeem fell under 10RPG. They're the same age, yea. But Barkley had lost a lot of his game and it was Hakeem's team, so Barkley went in and ate up the boards and Hakeem had already become a less physical player. Barkely averaging 13.5RPG is not a slight on Hakeem's rebounding. Hakeem was a terrific rebounder.




Shaq is one of the best players of all-time, but he is a stat-padder. If you think looking at raw stats is the correct way of concluding a player's worth, then you've already lost the argument. Shaq got his ass torched that series, regardless of what people want to now suggest. Hakeem played him worse than he played Robinson. Difference is Robinson didn't just pad his stats and played not just against Hakeem but AGAINST THE ROCKETS. Shaq got his but was overmatched.


Ewing was great in the 94 series, but Riley did a terrible job with the offense and Pat didn't get enough touches. Had he, he would have gotten the best out of Hakeem. But he didn't, and overall Hakeem was better and they won.





NOW...if you wanna look at Hakeem and say "Kareem scored a lot" and come to a conclusion, go ahead. But here's the thing. Hakeem didn't just go at Kareem. Hakeem played center against the Lakers. If he was just a single cog whose sole responsibility was Kareem, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case. He played defense against the entire Lakers team. He was the anchor, not just the post defender. He did everything.





AND WITH THAT SAID...Kareem destroyed Hakeem? Hakeem had 3.4APG to Hakeem's 2APG. Kareem shot .724 from the line, to Hakeem's .700.



Why did I bring those up? Because those are the only two categories where Kareem outdid Olajuwon. Kareem scored 27PPG, on 6.8RPG. Hakeem averaged 11.2RPG and still had time to outscore Kareem, 31PPG. He had 2.2SPG and 4BPG. And the Rockets beat the champion Lakers, 4-1.



So how did he beat Kareem? Their head-to-head is in Hakeem's favor, statistically. And the WCF's Hakeem, on paper, clearly outplayed Kareem. In reality, it was more than that. He even shot much better.





BTW, just because a player outplays another head-to-head doesn't mean he's better than that player. You can have trouble with one guy but overall you can be better.


Unlike the '86 WCF's when it was SAMPSON who guarded the 39 year old Kareem (yes, a 39 year old Kareem), Hakeem TRIED to cover the 38-39 year old Kareem in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games...and the result?

31.8 ppg on .630 shooting, which included three games of 40, 43, and even 46. We have VIDEO FOOTAGE of a 38 year old Kareem (yes, a 38 year old Kareem who could barely get 6 rpg) hanging 40 points on a Hakeem who flailed away the entire game. We also have a NEWSPAPER RECAP in which the writer ripped the Rockets coach for allowing the bloodbath that a 39 year old Kareem (yes, a 39 year old Kareem) DESTROYED Hakeem with, in a game in which Kareem not only scored 46 points almost exclusively on Hakeem, and on a stunning 21-30 shooting, but in only 37 minutes!

But, yes, go right ahead and be proud of a 23 year old Hakeem outscoring a 39 year old Kareem in the '86 WCF's (and again, with SAMPSON doing the bulk of the defensive assigment), by a 31-27 ppg margin, and outrebounding him by an 11-6 rpg margin, and outshooting him by a .520 to .496 margin.

Now, ask yourself this...just what would a 23 year old Kareem, a player who averaged 31.7 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and shot .577 and in only 40 mpg...while winning the MVP and FMVP, have done against THAT Hakeem?

Then, let's carry that even further...what would a 23 year old Kareem have BOMBED a 39 year old Hakeem with?

As for the Shaq-Hakeem battles...Shaq WON the VAST MAJORITY of their 28 total H2H games, and overall, by a HUGE margin. Even a young Shaq was battling a PRIME Hakeem to a standstill, and a more PRIME Shaq just ANNIHILATED an older Hakeem.

Everyone jumps on the Hakeem bandwagon for outplaying Ewing in one seven game Finals; for wiping the floor with a timid Robinson in ONE playoff series; and for sweeping a young Shaq, who had NO HELP in the '95 Finals, and whose TEAMMATES were just SLAUGHTERED by Hakeem's TEAMMATES. But, yes, Shaq was "stats-padding" while single-handedly keeping his team in those four games, and by being outscored by a shot-jacking Hakeem (who took TEN more FGAs PER GAME), by a 32-28 margin. And in the meantime, he easily outassisted Hakeem (and once again, had his teammates hit their open shots it would have been much more); easily outrebounding Hakeem; even outblocking Hakeem; and just murdering him from the floor by a .595 to .483 margin.

[Whoah10115]

Unlike the '86 WCF's when it was SAMPSON who guarded the 39 year old Kareem (yes, a 39 year old Kareem), Hakeem TRIED to cover the 38-39 year old Kareem in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games...and the result?

31.8 ppg on .630 shooting, which included three games of 40, 43, and even 46. We have VIDEO FOOTAGE of a 38 year old Kareem (yes, a 38 year old Kareem who could barely get 6 rpg) hanging 40 points on a Hakeem who flailed away the entire game. We also have a NEWSPAPER RECAP in which the writer ripped the Rockets coach for allowing the bloodbath that a 39 year old Kareem (yes, a 39 year old Kareem) DESTROYED Hakeem with, in a game in which Kareem not only scored 46 points almost exclusively on Hakeem, and on a stunning 21-30 shooting, but in only 37 minutes!

But, yes, go right ahead and be proud of a 23 year old Hakeem outscoring a 39 year old Kareem in the '86 WCF's (and again, with SAMPSON doing the bulk of the defensive assigment), by a 31-27 ppg margin, and outrebounding him by an 11-6 rpg margin, and outshooting him by a .520 to .496 margin.

Now, ask yourself this...just what would a 23 year old Kareem, a player who averaged 31.7 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and shot .577 and in only 40 mpg...while winning the MVP and FMVP, have done against THAT Hakeem?

Then, let's carry that even further...what would a 23 year old Kareem have BOMBED a 39 year old Hakeem with?

As for the Shaq-Hakeem battles...Shaq WON the VAST MAJORITY of their 28 total H2H games, and overall, by a HUGE margin. Even a young Shaq was battling a PRIME Hakeem to a standstill, and a more PRIME Shaq just ANNIHILATED an older Hakeem.

Everyone jumps on the Hakeem bandwagon for outplaying Ewing in one seven game Finals; for wiping the floor with a timid Robinson in ONE playoff series; and for sweeping a young Shaq, who had NO HELP in the '95 Finals, and whose TEAMMATES were just SLAUGHTERED by Hakeem's TEAMMATES. But, yes, Shaq was "stats-padding" while single-handedly keeping his team in those four games, and by being outscored by a shot-jacking Hakeem (who took TEN more FGAs PER GAME), by a 32-28 margin. And in the meantime, he easily outassisted Hakeem (and once again, had his teammates hit their open shots it would have been much more); easily outrebounding Hakeem; even outblocking Hakeem; and just murdering him from the floor by a .595 to .483 margin.



Shaq's teammates were better than Hakeem's. Drexler was great, Horry was great, everyone else did a very good job. But you wanna keep looking at stats, go look and see that Penny was great too. And Penny actually played pretty well.



You think that if Shaq's teammates had played up to Hakeem's, that the Magic would have won the series? I mean, do you think they would have won 2 games? Because they were never gonna win the series. Keep looking at stats, Hakeem didn't just destroy Shaq, he destroyed the Magic. And the game is actually 5v5.



Shaq's teammates were better than Hakeem's. You ever wonder if maybe Hakeem made those guys around him better?





Kareem was guarded by Sampson...so he was guarded by the worse defender? It wasn't all game like you suggest, but that just means a lesser defender was guarding Kareem. More importantly, like I already said and you whipped right past, Hakeem was the anchor in the middle so his job was to do more than just win 1v1 vs Kareem. He was the center of their defense. And he didn't play lazy on defense and completely ignore the pick n'roll like Kareem did. He didn't not get rebounds like Kareem did. He played every bit of every possession.




Why would I care what Kareem did to Hakeem their first 10 H2H meetings? Malone beat Kareem H2H but Moses Malone is not as good as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And besides that, their FIRST 10 H2H games. Half of that is Hakeem's rookie season (not prime). Rookie. And his 2nd season. And then, in his second season, he torched the Lakers in the WCF's. He did not torch Kareem, he torched the Los Angeles Lakers. He was the reason they won. He was the reason the defending (and soon to be back-to-back) champions were eliminated from the playoffs. He's the reason the Houston Rockets went to the NBA Finals.



He's not as good as Larry Bird, but he's a legit top 10 all-time. And what you're saying about him, getting shelled by Kareem, that's just not true. Old Kareem was selfish as all hell...I can actually say that about all of LA Kareem. He got his too. But he was an all-time player and he had remarkable longevity and was still great in his late 30's. Hakeem was raw and all over the place. So, there's no need to say "We can only imagine". That doesn't mean anything. And you're not giving the man his due.

[jlauber]

Shaq's teammates were better than Hakeem's. Drexler was great, Horry was great, everyone else did a very good job. But you wanna keep looking at stats, go look and see that Penny was great too. And Penny actually played pretty well.



You think that if Shaq's teammates had played up to Hakeem's, that the Magic would have won the series? I mean, do you think they would have won 2 games? Because they were never gonna win the series. Keep looking at stats, Hakeem didn't just destroy Shaq, he destroyed the Magic. And the game is actually 5v5.



Shaq's teammates were better than Hakeem's. You ever wonder if maybe Hakeem made those guys around him better?





Kareem was guarded by Sampson...so he was guarded by the worse defender? It wasn't all game like you suggest, but that just means a lesser defender was guarding Kareem. More importantly, like I already said and you whipped right past, Hakeem was the anchor in the middle so his job was to do more than just win 1v1 vs Kareem. He was the center of their defense. And he didn't play lazy on defense and completely ignore the pick n'roll like Kareem did. He didn't not get rebounds like Kareem did. He played every bit of every possession.




Why would I care what Kareem did to Hakeem their first 10 H2H meetings? Malone beat Kareem H2H but Moses Malone is not as good as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And besides that, their FIRST 10 H2H games. Half of that is Hakeem's rookie season (not prime). Rookie. And his 2nd season. And then, in his second season, he torched the Lakers in the WCF's. He did not torch Kareem, he torched the Los Angeles Lakers. He was the reason they won. He was the reason the defending (and soon to be back-to-back) champions were eliminated from the playoffs. He's the reason the Houston Rockets went to the NBA Finals.



He's not as good as Larry Bird, but he's a legit top 10 all-time. And what you're saying about him, getting shelled by Kareem, that's just not true. Old Kareem was selfish as all hell...I can actually say that about all of LA Kareem. He got his too. But he was an all-time player and he had remarkable longevity and was still great in his late 30's. Hakeem was raw and all over the place. So, there's no need to say "We can only imagine". That doesn't mean anything. And you're not giving the man his due.

Hakeem is a BORDERLINE Top-TEN player of all-time. How do I KNOW that? Because he wasn't even a TOP-FIVE player in HIS era. He won ONE MVP, in a season in which MJ did not play (and won a title by not having to face a Jordan-led Bulls team that went 55-27 withOUT him.) He came in second, ONE time. He came in 4th, TWICE. In EIGHTEEN seasons. FOUR Top-FOUR finishes in 18 seasons. EIGHT seasons in which he was not even Top-TEN. ONE stinking MVP. And yet I am supposed to credit this man with some kind of ranking over the likes of Bird, Kobe, and even Moses (who won THREE MVPs)?

And there is no way in hell he had anywhere near the careers that Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Duncan had, either.

BORDERLINE TOP-TEN is being generous...

[StateOfMind12]

Funny how Hakeem fans always look exclusively at playoffs, which is a smaller sample size. Bird was scoring more and on higher percentages during his peak 4 seasons than Hakeem scored from '87-'91.
Why wouldn't we? Playoffs and Finals scoring matter the most because that is when the competition is at its highest and when defenses tighten up. Bird scored more than Hakeem did in the regular season but Bird scored less than Hakeem did in the playoffs and in the Finals.

All that shows me is that Bird is better at taking advantages of the weaker teams and weaker defenses while Hakeem is better against tougher teams and tougher defenses. I don't know about you, but I prefer my scorer being better and more reliable against tougher teams and tougher defenses.

As for your comment about how Bird scored more than in his peak seasons than Hakeem did in '87-'91.

Well that is because Hakeem had a coach (Don Chaney) that was more interested in having Vernon Maxwell taking more shots or as many shots as Hakeem did. That isn't Olajuwon's fault that he had a coach that didn't know what he was doing out there and preferring having the shots going to someone else. That is why Olajuwon's scoring and FGA went up as soon as Rudy T. took over as HC for the Houston Rockets.

That is why a lot of people say Olajuwon's career before 1992 was practically wasted. Everybody calls those years for Hakeem, the dark years.

[jlauber]

Why wouldn't we? Playoffs and Finals scoring matter the most because that is when the competition is at its highest and when defenses tighten up. Bird scored more than Hakeem did in the regular season but Bird scored less than Hakeem did in the playoffs and in the Finals.

All that shows me is that Bird is better at taking advantages of the weaker teams and weaker defenses while Hakeem is better against tougher teams and tougher defenses. I don't know about you, but I prefer my scorer being better and more reliable against tougher teams and tougher defenses.

As for your comment about how Bird scored more than in his peak seasons than Hakeem did in '87-'91.

Well that is because Hakeem had a coach (Don Chaney) that was more interested in having Vernon Maxwell taking more shots or as many shots as Hakeem did. That isn't Olajuwon's fault that he had a coach that didn't know what he was doing out there and preferring having the shots going to someone else. That is why Olajuwon's scoring and FGA went up as soon as Rudy T. took over as HC for the Houston Rockets.

That is why a lot of people say Olajuwon's career before 1992 was practically wasted. Everybody calls those years for Hakeem, the dark years.

And yet, Hakeem had EIGHT playoff runs, in FIFTEEN playoffs, in which he couldn't get his team past the first round, including a horrible series against the Lakers in the late 80's. OVER HALF of his post-season career, he couldn't get past the FIRST ROUND. My god, he could barely win ONE game in each of those EIGHT playoff runs.

BTW, the greatest SB running back. Arguably Timmy Smith.
The greatest SB QB...arguably Doug Williams.

The above argument about sums up Hakeem's post-season play. He had TWO playoff runs, in which he was exceptional. Yes, he played well in several other post-seasons, but I can find many other players who did as well.

The Hakeem-lovers are basically claiming him as some monumental player, based on seven games against Ewing, six against Robinson, and are WAY over-rating his Finals against a young Shaq. 17 damn games.

Take a look at the MVP balloting in his career. Even in his supposed PRIME. Now THAT was REALITY.

[Whoah10115]

Hakeem is a BORDERLINE Top-TEN player of all-time. How do I KNOW that? Because he wasn't even a TOP-FIVE player in HIS era. He won ONE MVP, in a season in which MJ did not play (and won a title by not having to face a Jordan-led Bulls team that went 55-27 withOUT him.) He came in second, ONE time. He came in 4th, TWICE. In EIGHTEEN seasons. FOUR Top-FOUR finishes in 18 seasons. EIGHT seasons in which he was not even Top-TEN. ONE stinking MVP. And yet I am supposed to credit this man with some kind of ranking over the likes of Bird, Kobe, and even Moses (who won THREE MVPs)?

And there is no way in hell he had anywhere near the careers that Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Duncan had, either.

BORDERLINE TOP-TEN is being generous...




Borderline Top Ten means he's being legitimately considered top 10. That's more than just a real good player. That's one of the very best players of all-time.




He's better than Shaq and Duncan.



I understand the dominance of Shaq and all that. I get how Duncan ranks every year. But first thing is first, I'm not rank Hakeem based on how others ranked him. Otherwise I wouldn't be ranking him.


Shaq took more advantage of the game than any player I've ever seen. That's not even the right comment. It was almost a slap in the face to the game. Often times it was. But whatever, he is one of the best I've seen.



To say Hakeem didn't have anywhere near those careers...that's just ridiculous.



I don't have a top 10 written. Hakeem may or may not be on it. I have a hard time ranking. Duncan was great but got away with taking the regular season off and some BS in the playoffs. And he's been one of my favorites. Shaq, I already said. I don't know where I rank Hakeem.



It's hard to rank eras, because eras cross. But Hakeem is up there.



He is better than Moses Malone. I'm sorry, but he's better than Moses Malone.




The things that you called Hakeem out on are off-base tho. His rebounding, his defense, his shot-blocking. Guys like Eaton may have had more blocks, but they did almost nothing else. Hakeem did everything.


Michael, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Kobe...those are the only guys I'm certain belong in the top 10. I can go Duncan, I can also still pick Malone and Barkley over him if I really want, West, Oscar, Havlicek maybe. And I can look at Isiah too, who I'm shocked has been forgotten. No Shaq, maybe Hakeem.



All I know is the top 7. And obviously, this is not just prime or peak.

[Big#50]

Bird is ****ing awesome. That's all.

[BlackJoker23]

lol hakeem is so much better than wilt and bird its not even funny

only dumb cvnts and retards rank those two over him

[juju151111]

Funny how Hakeem fans always look exclusively at playoffs, which is a smaller sample size. Bird was scoring more and on higher percentages during his peak 4 seasons than Hakeem scored from '87-'91.
Wtf you mean we always look at playoffs stats. Playoffs is what most greats are judged on. Look at LJ this season. Putting up the their best season ever and who gives a **** until playoffs time. Playoffs are more intense and teams get to gameplan. Go ask Bird,Magic, Mj if regular season matters.

[Jotaro Durant]

lol hakeem is so much better than wilt and bird its not even funny

only dumb cvnts and retards rank those two over him
olajuwon over chamberlain:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :biggums:

[juju151111]

And yet, Hakeem had EIGHT playoff runs, in FIFTEEN playoffs, in which he couldn't get his team past the first round, including a horrible series against the Lakers in the late 80's. OVER HALF of his post-season career, he couldn't get past the FIRST ROUND. My god, he could barely win ONE game in each of those EIGHT playoff runs.

BTW, the greatest SB running back. Arguably Timmy Smith.
The greatest SB QB...arguably Doug Williams.

The above argument about sums up Hakeem's post-season play. He had TWO playoff runs, in which he was exceptional. Yes, he played well in several other post-seasons, but I can find many other players who did as well.

The Hakeem-lovers are basically claiming him as some monumental player, based on seven games against Ewing, six against Robinson, and are WAY over-rating his Finals against a young Shaq. 17 damn games.

Take a look at the MVP balloting in his career. Even in his supposed PRIME. Now THAT was REALITY.
Show me a top 10 player who led his team to a chip with no allstars. Lol at 17 gms Hakeem is a all-time defender and top 10 in almost all stats. Go sit ur Wilt loving ass down. This guy got raped by Bill Russell and not a great playoff performer. Choke artist at the line

[OldSchoolBBall]

As for your comment about how Bird scored more than in his peak seasons than Hakeem did in '87-'91.

Well that is because Hakeem had a coach (Don Chaney) that was more interested in having Vernon Maxwell taking more shots or as many shots as Hakeem did. That isn't Olajuwon's fault that he had a coach that didn't know what he was doing out there and preferring having the shots going to someone else. That is why Olajuwon's scoring and FGA went up as soon as Rudy T. took over as HC for the Houston Rockets.

:facepalm

Maxwell wasn't even ON THE TEAM until 1990 (three years later), and even then only for the last 30 games of that season. He averaged 10.7 FGA/gm, hardly a high amount. Hakeem averaged 17.5-19.6 FGA/gm from '87-'91, yet never cracked 24.8 ppg (generally in the 22.5-23.5 ppg range), while a guy like Barkley averaged 15.3-17.4 FGA/gm during that same span and averaged 26-28 ppg - so it's not about his FGA. Maybe it's because Hakeem was converting at a dismal rate (for a center, especially in the 80's, 50-51% isn't great at all). Try again.

[StateOfMind12]

:facepalm

Maxwell wasn't even ON THE TEAM until 1990 (three years later), and even then only for the last 30 games of that season. He averaged 10.7 FGA/gm, hardly a high amount. Hakeem averaged 17.5-19.6 FGA/gm from '87-'91, yet never cracked 24.8 ppg (generally in the 22.5-23.5 ppg range), while a guy like Barkley averaged 15.3-17.4 FGA/gm during that same span and averaged 26-28 ppg - so it's not about his FGA. Maybe it's because Hakeem was converting at a dismal rate (for a center, especially in the 80's, 50-51% isn't great at all). Try again.
He still got more FGA and touches when Rudy T. came along then when Chaney was the coach, hence why Hakeem's usage percentage was much higher from '92-'96 than it was from '87-'91.

And also, Hakeem scored 26.1 ppg in the post-season from '87-'91 and he only averaged 19.6 fga. That's not higher than the scoring averages Bird put up in the post-season during his peak but that is because that was peak Bird while this was not peak or prime Hakeem.

Hakeem always upped his game in the post-season unlike Bird, who was wildly inconsistent in the playoffs.

Plus, why are we comparing peak Bird to non-peak Hakeem? That would be like me saying Hakeem in his peak scored more than Bird did from '87-'91 (post peak/prime). It doesn't matter and I don't have to do that though because Hakeem in his peak scored more than Bird did in his peak. It's not my fault these numbers back up my argument while it does not back up yours.

[jlauber]

Show me a top 10 player who led his team to a chip with no allstars. Lol at 17 gms Hakeem is a all-time defender and top 10 in almost all stats. Go sit ur Wilt loving ass down. This guy got raped by Bill Russell and not a great playoff performer. Choke artist at the line

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

RESEARCH my friend, RESEARCH. Try it sometime.

BTW, your boy Jordan got sodomized by Bird in the post-season. 6-0.

[juju151111]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

RESEARCH my friend, RESEARCH. Try it sometime.

BTW, your boy Jordan got sodomized by Bird in the post-season. 6-0.
You mean Mj who steps up in the playoffs? Lol at regular season lovers. You Maddy Wilt got destroyed by Russell Lmfaoooooo Mj 6 rings and 6FMVP

[Roundball_Rock]

I think Hakeem could have nailed higher goat status if he won a ring AFTER Jordan came back.


1995. Is it Hakeem's fault the Bulls lost in the second round in 94' and 95' with or without MJ?

[jlauber]

You mean Mj who steps up in the playoffs? Lol at regular season lovers. You Maddy Wilt got destroyed by Russell Lmfaoooooo Mj 6 rings and 6FMVP


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

RESEARCH my friend, RESEARCH. Try it sometime. And then get back to me.

[StateOfMind12]

1995. Is it Hakeem's fault the Bulls lost in the second round in 94' and 95' with or without MJ?
Yeah, I have no idea why MJ is still an excuse or a cockblock for Hakeem's greatness. It's not like Hakeem was never able to win and be successful because of MJ. MJ never stopped Hakeem from doing anything. The MJ pass only works for players like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, etc. not Hakeem.

[millwad]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

RESEARCH my friend, RESEARCH. Try it sometime. And then get back to me.

Yeah, people, research like Jlauber... Use yahoo and youtube-comments as sources and believe in every quote you hear..:facepalm

Dude, don't you understand how lame you are? Even CavaliersFTW mocks you in the PM's I've got from him, you don't know crap and all you do is copy and paste..

It's really lame that even the guy's who like the same players like you mocks you as well.

[millwad]

You mean Mj who steps up in the playoffs? Lol at regular season lovers. You Maddy Wilt got destroyed by Russell Lmfaoooooo Mj 6 rings and 6FMVP

He's an idiot and a hypocrite, no one takes him seriously no more, not even Wilt-fans.

He always spams about the bad records some of those Rocket teams had and I confronted him and asked him what year's Hakeem should have lead his team further considering the teammates he had. The idiot doesn't know crap so he told me "every year"..:facepalm

And it's always fun to watch him spam about how much Kareem scored on Akeem when he was a rookie and a 2nd year pro, but he never mentions that Olajuwon as a 2nd year pro abused Kareem and the Lakers in the playoffs that same year and led his Rocket team to an easy 4-1 win in series.. Considering how Wilt always dropped in the playoffs it's understandable that Jlauber is this obsessed with the reg. season.. :facepalm

Hakeem led a team without all-stars to a ring in '94 with a 2nd best scorer in Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting in the playoffs. I asked Jluber to find anyone else who had that little help and he was clueless..

[bwink23]

Yeah, I have no idea why MJ is still an excuse or a cockblock for Hakeem's greatness. It's not like Hakeem was never able to win and be successful because of MJ. MJ never stopped Hakeem from doing anything. The MJ pass only works for players like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, etc. not Hakeem.


So your saying cuz the other guys played and lost....you can say that for them...but Hakeem's teams were never good enough to meet the Bulls in the Finals, so your right. Jordan had nothing to do with that...:D

[millwad]

So your saying cuz the other guys played and lost....you can say that for them...but Hakeem's teams were never good enough to meet the Bulls in the Finals, so your right. Jordan had nothing to do with that...:D

Hakeem is the only player who played against prime Jordan and didn't have a looooosing record, and be aware of the fact that some of those Rocket really sucked.

The Rockets were never a good match up for the Bulls. Now I'm not saying that Hakeem would have won but Hakeem if anyone had a good chance.