Kyrie Irving is the best rookie shooter ever

[AAckley1]

Right now, Kyrie is putting up 47/40/87%. No rookie ever has shot those percentages on the number of shots he is attempting. What's more impressive is when you look at the players who have ever put up seasons comparable to Irving's.

For players who have shot >= 47/40/86 with at least 2 3PTA a game, it's essentially a list of the greatest shooters of all time.

Steve Nash: 10 seasons
Miller, Mullins: 4 seasons
Allen, Bird, Hornacek: 3 seasons
Ainge, Barros, B. Barry, Calderon, Hawkins, Legler, Nowitzki, Price, Smith, Stojakavic, Sczerbiak: 2 seasons

[Sarcastic]

Slow down son. He's having a great year, but this is not even a top 10 rookie season of all time.

[jb220]

Slow down son. He's having a great year, but this is not even a top 10 rookie season of all time.
Says who?

[Sarcastic]

Says who?

History.

[RedBlackAttack]

Slow down son. He's having a great year, but this is not even a top 10 rookie season of all time.
:oldlol:

How do you even rank such a thing? Statistically, he is having an all-time rookie season. But, if it were just that it would be one thing... He is also completely taking over literally every game in 4th quarters and willing his team to either wins or close losses in games that they probably have no business even competing in.

He has been phenomenal. Unfortunately, not many people have been watching.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Says who?
MJ
Kareem
Timmy
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Russell
Hakeem
..ugh....Lebron...ugh :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

Just about everyone on the top 10 GOAT list had better rookie seasons.

Wes Unseld is not even top 10, and he won MVP in his rookie year.

[RedBlackAttack]

Over the last 25 games, Kyrie is leading the league in scoring in the 4th Quarter and doing it at an amazing shooting percentage (over 50% from the floor, I believe).

[AAckley1]

Slow down son. He's having a great year, but this is not even a top 10 rookie season of all time.

Who said anything about it being a top 10 rookie season? It's simply the best shooting season by any rookie. He could be putting up a higher PPG while sacrificing his percentages, but he doesn't. He picks his spots and gets himself in situations that he can hit high percentage shots. That is a hallmark of a great shooter.

[Sarcastic]

Over the last 25 games, Kyrie is leading the league in scoring in the 4th Quarter and doing it at an amazing shooting percentage (over 50% from the floor, I believe).

Like I said, he is having a great year, and I think he is the real deal, but this is far from an all time year for a rookie.

[RedBlackAttack]

MJ..ugh....Lebron...ugh :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Speaking as someone who watched James in every game that he played his rookie year and I've done the same for Kyrie, Irving is having a pretty clearly superior rookie season. James made a dramatic leap from Year 1 to Year 2. That is when he really began taking off.

He showed signs of brilliance in his rookie year, but he wasn't even close to as consistently good as Irving has been, night-in and night-out.

[alwaysunny]

I'm confused. Thread is about percentage/efficiency. Why are you guys talking about having greater seasons?

[AAckley1]

Just about everyone on the top 10 GOAT list had better rookie seasons.

Wes Unseld is not even top 10, and he won MVP in his rookie year.

Ray Allen is the greatest shooter of all time. Micheal Jordan is the greatest player. Do you understand the difference?

[G-train]

Speaking as someone who watched James in every game that he played his rookie year and I've done the same for Kyrie, Irving is having a pretty clearly superior rookie season. James made a dramatic leap from Year 1 to Year 2. That is when he really began taking off.

He showed signs of brilliance in his rookie year, but he wasn't even close to as consistently good as Irving has been, night-in and night-out.

If I'm not mistaken Lebron was a year younger, dropped 20/5/5 or something and had about a 20 win increase. He was better than Irving in his rookie year, but Irving isn't too far behind. Had many spectacular games too.
To say Irving was clearly superior is extremely poor analysis.

[FKAri]

The word that I would use to describe Irving's play is unbelievable.

I can't believe he's 19. A real prodigy (the likes basketball doesn't really see). Paradoxically though I can't see holes in his game (aside from D) that he could work on to become even better. What can he really improve on and how much? It's so difficult to evaluate his ceiling for these reasons for me.

[IGOTGAME]

Kyrie has convinced me. He is a great shooter. The best I have ever seen as a rookie.

[Sarcastic]

Ray Allen is the greatest shooter of all time. Micheal Jordan is the greatest player. Do you understand the difference?

I never said Kyrie is not shooting great. I just said this was far from a top 10 all time rookie season.

[alwaysunny]

I never said Kyrie is not shooting great. I just said this was far from a top 10 all time rookie season.

He never said it was..

[Tenchi Ryu]

He never said it was..
Jb220 was hinting it was...

[LoneyROY7]

Only three full-time starter rookie guards had a higher TS% then Kyrie Irving:

MJ
Magic
Eric Gordon

[blacknapalm]

Speaking as someone who watched James in every game that he played his rookie year and I've done the same for Kyrie, Irving is having a pretty clearly superior rookie season. James made a dramatic leap from Year 1 to Year 2. That is when he really began taking off.

He showed signs of brilliance in his rookie year, but he wasn't even close to as consistently good as Irving has been, night-in and night-out.

i agree with this from a shooting standpoint. overall impact? i'd still say lebron but irving is doing great things. cavs have the chance to make the playoffs (starting to slip, i know) and that's without andy v for over a month now

[jb220]

Jb220 was hinting it was...
I said that in reply to the comment about him being top 10 rookie all time...

[RedBlackAttack]

If I'm not mistaken Lebron was a year younger, dropped 20/5/5 or something and had about a 20 win increase. He was better than Irving in his rookie year, but Irving isn't too far behind. Had many spectacular games too.
To say Irving was clearly superior is extremely poor analysis.
Irving has been far more efficient in every facet of the game. And, the Cavs went from losing 26-straight games last season to being in the playoff conversation for most of this season thus far and that is without their second best player (Varejao) who has been out for six weeks.

He is also taking over games lately down the stretch in a way that James never did this consistently in his rookie year.

But, strictly based on statistics...

LeBron averaged 40 minutes, 20 points, 5.9 assists and 5.5 rebounds his rookie year on 41.7% from the field, 75% from the line and 29% from 3.

Kyrie is averaging 31 minutes, 19 points, 5.6 assists, 3.7 rebounds on 47.2% from the field, 87% from the line, and 40% from 3.

Those numbers don't include tonight's 29/9/9 on 10-18 shooting.

And, in the advanced stats like PER and TS%, they aren't even close. You really think LeBron's statistics above are more impressive? And, we are talking about a guard, here, and guards very rarely shoot those kinds of percentages in their rookie seasons... Almost never.


Oh, and they were both 19 at this stage of the season. LeBron was younger by a matter of months, not a year.

[bdreason]

He's the real deal. Glad ESPN is finally giving him some attention.

[jb220]

Is there a reason Irving is playing only 31 minutes?

[AAckley1]

I never said Kyrie is not shooting great. I just said this was far from a top 10 all time rookie season.

Do you not notice that the list I posted of previous players contains not one player who anyone would put in their Top 10 Greatest Players of All Time.

Yet, if you rehash to the thread from a few days ago about who the best "pure shooter" of all time was, the list in my original post contains essentially every player named.

Because of the mindset a great shooter has, it essentially prevents them from ever becoming a "greatest player" because most great shooters simply cannot make themselves take terrible shots in the hopes of going in.

Ray Allen & Reggie Miller could have put up multiple 30+ PPG seasons, but their shooting percentage & their teams would have suffered as a result.

[RedBlackAttack]

Is there a reason Irving is playing only 31 minutes?
Obviously, since the dealing of Sessions, he has been playing more. He went over 40 tonight.

But, it had to do with:

1. He was coming off of an injury and had no training camp or preseason, basically.

2. One of the best players on the team was the backup PG.

3. This ridiculously condensed schedule that has these guys playing 5x a week at times.

When you take all of those things into account, it makes his season even more amazing.

[Sarcastic]

Do you not notice that the list I posted of previous players contains not one player who anyone would put in their Top 10 Greatest Players of All Time.

Yet, if you rehash to the thread from a few days ago about who the best "pure shooter" of all time was, the list in my original post contains essentially every player named.

Because of the mindset a great shooter has, it essentially prevents them from ever becoming a "greatest player" because most great shooters simply cannot make themselves take terrible shots in the hopes of going in.

Ray Allen & Reggie Miller could have put up multiple 30+ PPG seasons, but their shooting percentage & their teams would have suffered as a result.

Larry Bird is a top 10 player all time.

You picked arbitrary stats that fit your agenda. Larry Bird had a far superior season to what Kyrie is doing, but because his FT% wasn't 87%, he is not counted.

The standard season which great shooters are measured by is the 50/40/90 club.

Don't make up random numbers like 47% fg, and 87% ft.

[Meticode]

If I'm not mistaken Lebron was a year younger, dropped 20/5/5 or something and had about a 20 win increase.
This is all very true what you mentioned, he did drop 20/5/5 and increased the Cavs win total to 20 more games.

Also consider that he averaged those numbers averaging 39.5 minutes per game the whole season, he shot 41.7% from the field while 29% from three.

You could also argue Irving would lead the Cavs to 20+ more wins this season if a full schedule was played. Irving is averaging 19PPG, 5.7APG, 3.8RBG while shooting almost 48% from the field, over 40% from three and 87% from the line.

[bdreason]

Is there a reason Irving is playing only 31 minutes?


His coach is smart.

[cavsfanatic]

If I'm not mistaken Lebron was a year younger, dropped 20/5/5 or something and had about a 20 win increase. He was better than Irving in his rookie year, but Irving isn't too far behind. Had many spectacular games too.
To say Irving was clearly superior is extremely poor analysis.
Lebron was the 3rd rookie to ever average 20/5/5 and he came straight out of high school with tons of pressure. I agree with you

[RedBlackAttack]

This is all very true what you mentioned, he did drop 20/5/5 and increased the Cavs win total to 20 more games.

Also consider that he averaged those numbers averaging 39.5 minutes per game the whole season, he shot 41.7% from the field while 29% from three.

You could also argue Irving would lead the Cavs to 20+ more wins this season if a full schedule was played. Irving is averaging 19PPG, 5.7APG, 3.8RBG while shooting almost 48% from the field, over 40% from three and 87% from the line.
As someone who watched every game James played in his rookie year and every game Irving has played his rookie year, I'm far more impressed by what Irving is doing.

LeBron was clearly headed for greatness and that was easy to see, but he was also incredibly inconsistent in his first full season in the NBA. And, he didn't have to do it with this crazy schedule, which would have made things worse (and there is no way he would have played 40 minutes a game his first year under these circumstances).

The most amazing thing about Irving's rookie year has been his consistency... Very, very few off nights. And, he is taking over just about every game at the end, regardless of the opponent.

Take into account the statistics, be it your regular stats or more advanced efficiency stuff, I don't even think it is close. There is a HUGE difference between shooting close to 48% from the field and shooting 41%. Massive.

[Meticode]

As someone who watched every game James played in his rookie year and every game Irving has played his rookie year, I'm far more impressed by what Irving is doing.

LeBron was clearly headed for greatness and that was easy to see, but he was also incredibly inconsistent in his first full season in the NBA. And, he didn't have to do it with this crazy schedule, which would have made things worse (and there is no way he would have played 40 minutes a game his first year under these circumstances).

The most amazing thing about Irving's rookie year has been his consistency... Very, very few off nights. And, he is taking over just about every game at the end, regardless of the opponent.

Take into account the statistics, be it your regular stats or more advanced efficiency stuff, I don't even think it is close. There is a HUGE difference between shooting close to 48% from the field and shooting 41%. Massive.
Agreed.

[RedBlackAttack]

Lebron was the 3rd rookie to ever average 20/5/5 and he came straight out of high school with tons of pressure. I agree with you
Irving played 11 collegiate games, was coming off of an injury, had no training camp or preaseason, is playing a ridiculously condensed schedule and is putting up 19/6/4 on 48/87/41. They were both 19 during the majority of their rookie seasons.

Really?

[irondarts]

MJ
Kareem
Timmy
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Russell
Hakeem
..ugh....Lebron...ugh :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Kyrie - 18.7 PPG, 5.6 APG, 3.7 RPG on 47/40/87 in 31.1 MPG

LeBron - 20.9 PPG, 5.9 APG, 5.5 RPG on 41/29/75 in 39.5 MPG


I think Kyrie's Rookie year is better than LeBron's so far.

[Tenchi Ryu]

It just seems wrong though...this amount of progress is very promising, but at the same time I'd be a little cautious. This is literally too fast for a rookie, and if he does hit a wall, its gonna be HARD.

[Meticode]

Kyrie - 18.7 PPG, 5.6 APG, 3.7 RPG on 47/40/87 in 31.1 MPG

LeBron - 20.9 PPG, 5.9 APG, 5.5 RPG on 41/29/75 in 39.5 MPG


I think Kyrie's Rookie year is better than LeBron's so far.
On stats alone wasn't Tyreke Evans rookie season better stastically than LeBron's as well? 20/5/5?

[AAckley1]

Larry Bird is a top 10 player all time.

You picked arbitrary stats that fit your agenda. Larry Bird had a far superior season to what Kyrie is doing, but because his FT% wasn't 87%, he is not counted.

The standard season which great shooters are measured by is the 50/40/90 club.

Don't make up random numbers like 47% fg, and 87% ft.

Larry Bird shot >= 47,40,87 on 2 3PTA 4 times. Says so right in my original post. He's the only player on the list anyone would call a top 10 player.

As far as 50/40/90 seasons go, you do know that Nash, Bird, Nowitzki, Calderon, Mark Price & Reggie are the only players to ever do that while shooting at least 100 FT, right? And that Nash (4) & Bird (2) are the only ones to do it more than once?

So yes, I widened the statistics just a bit to include Kyrie into the grouping, however, the fact remains that the players who have put up similar shooting seasons are all in the conversation for greatest shooters of all time.

[Doranku]

:roll: @ people thinking LeBron's rookie season was better than Kyrie's so far.

[RedBlackAttack]

It just seems wrong though...this amount of progress is very promising, but at the same time I'd be a little cautious. This is literally too fast for a rookie, and if he does hit a wall, its gonna be HARD.
It only seems wrong to you because last year's draft was said to be historically weak at the top. A lot of analysts even pointed to Irving as a guy that would never go No. 1 in any other draft. There was such little hype/hope for this class that everyone was convinced that there wouldn't be anything all that special coming out.

If you watched him night-in and night-out like us Cavaliers fans have, you wouldn't be questioning his insane progression. Truth is, he has hit a bit of a rookie wall as far as his shooting is concerned. There was a point almost midway through the season where he was over 50% from the floor and 45% from 3.

His legs aren't in his jumper as consistently as they were early in the season for obvious reasons.

But, he has overcome that hurdle by becoming a much more well-rounded PG, now averaging six assists per game and less turnovers recently (the last couple of games excluded), while turning his game up several notches when it matters most.

One could argue that he did, in fact, face a rookie wall... And he has gotten over it.

[ballinhun8]

The resurgence of Jamison has also helped the Cavs be much more competitive. Every time I checked tea box score of a Cavs game he was always putting up 20+ ppg. The guy acts like he's back in the Bay.



He has helped Kyrie a good amount I believe. And so far at their peaks this season I would say Jamison is the second best Cavs player over Varajeo.

[AAckley1]

Larry Bird rookie year: 47/40/83 % 1.7 3PTA. 4.4 FTA

Kyrie Irving rookie year: 47/40/87 %. 3.2 3PTA. 4.3 FTA


Irving is shooting the exact same percentages as a rookie that Bird was. On twice as many 3 attempts, without having the benefit of being 6'9 for inside shots & mid range jumpers.

[RedBlackAttack]

And, listen guys... I'm not one to use PER as the be-all and end-all of a statistical discussion and I don't even like the stat all that much, but it does do a pretty good job of showing a player's scoring efficiency.

Coming into tonight's game, Kyrie's PER was 21.6. After tonight's game, I'm sure it is pushing or over 22.

Here is where Kyrie ranks all-time coming into tonight among rookie guards in PER (PGs and SGs):

Michael Jordan - 25.8 (no guard is ever touching that)
Chris Paul - 22.1
Kyrie Irving - 21.6
Magic Johnson - 20.6

Other notables:

KAJ - 22.5
Larry Bird - 20.5
LeBron James - 18.3


Now, we can sit here and have a debate about the validity of PER and how much it does or doesn't mean, but that is an impressive feat for a 6-foot-3 rookie point guard playing in a condensed season no matter how you slice it.

I AM NOT SAYING that he will ever be as good as Jordan, Bird, KAJ or Magic... That is not the point of this post. Just pointing out how stunningly efficient he has been during this rookie season.

[AAckley1]

I AM NOT SAYING that he will ever be as good as Jordan, Bird, KAJ or Magic... That is not the point of this post. Just pointing out how stunningly efficient he has been during this rookie season.

Exactly. No rookie has ever shot this well while shooting at the rate he is shooting.

[LBJMVP]

i'm more impressed with kyrie's rookie season. he could have easily been averaging 20/5/5 if he started with more minutes and he could still very well get there.

his 4th quarter scoring is insane! top 5 clutch player in the league. yes im going there. two game winning shot and free three with time expired to win a game. im not to sure he isn't leading the league in 4th quarter scoring. im 100% sure he is leading the league in scoring in the last 5 minutes of a game. plus he is shooting 50% during the fourth like someone else said.

he game is so smooth. he is playing past my wildest imaginations, the future is looking bright!

[D-Wade316]

And, listen guys... I'm not one to use PER as the be-all and end-all of a statistical discussion and I don't even like the stat all that much, but it does do a pretty good job of showing a player's scoring efficiency.

Coming into tonight's game, Kyrie's PER was 21.6. After tonight's game, I'm sure it is pushing or over 22.

Here is where Kyrie ranks all-time coming into tonight among rookie guards in PER (PGs and SGs):

Michael Jordan - 25.8 (no guard is ever touching that)
Chris Paul - 22.1
Kyrie Irving - 21.6
Magic Johnson - 20.6

Other notables:

KAJ - 22.5
Larry Bird - 20.5
LeBron James - 18.3


Now, we can sit here and have a debate about the validity of PER and how much it does or doesn't mean, but that is an impressive feat for a 6-foot-3 rookie point guard playing in a condensed season no matter how you slice it.

I AM NOT SAYING that he will ever be as good as Jordan, Bird, KAJ or Magic... That is not the point of this post. Just pointing out how stunningly efficient he has been during this rookie season.
Damn. :bowdown:

[RedBlackAttack]

The resurgence of Jamison has also helped the Cavs be much more competitive. Every time I checked tea box score of a Cavs game he was always putting up 20+ ppg. The guy acts like he's back in the Bay.



He has helped Kyrie a good amount I believe. And so far at their peaks this season I would say Jamison is the second best Cavs player over Varajeo.
As someone who has watched every Cavs game this year (sometimes multiple times), I can unequivocally say that Varejao was far and away the second best player on the team prior to injury. He was even getting major ASG consideration and rightfully so. He ranked No. 1 in the league in offensive boards, No. 3 in overall rebounds and was averaging 13/11 on the season, I believe. He even had a couple of 20/20 games. Further, he and Kyrie were playing really great off of one another in pick&roll situation before that injury happened... Far and away the best on-court relationship Kyrie has had with any player all season.

Jamison has done well for himself this season, no doubt, but -- as per usual -- a lot of his production comes from his unorthodox isolation sets where he tosses up some ridiculously off-balance scoop/hook that somehow goes in.

He is also only shooting 34% from 3 and 41% from the field, so it isn't like he is an extraordinarily good spot-up guy that can kill it on drive-and-kicks from Kyrie.

He has had a nice season and I have a massive amount of respect for him, but Jamison's style of play really doesn't lend itself to being all that in-tune with the other guys on the court. Most of his stuff comes on his own.

[RedBlackAttack]

i'm more impressed with kyrie's rookie season. he could have easily been averaging 20/5/5 if he started with more minutes and he could still very well get there.

his 4th quarter scoring is insane! top 5 clutch player in the league. yes im going there. two game winning shot and free three with time expired to win a game. im not to sure he isn't leading the league in 4th quarter scoring. im 100% sure he is leading the league in scoring in the last 5 minutes of a game. plus he is shooting 50% during the fourth like someone else said.

he game is so smooth. he is playing past my wildest imaginations, the future is looking bright!
I think he was 4th in the league in 4th Quarter scoring coming into tonight's game for the season.

Over the last 25 games, he is No. 1 in the league in scoring in the 4th Quarter, averaging over 9 per game in that stretch (he had 9 again tonight in the 4th and another 7 in overtime).

Also, I believe his TS% is No. 1 in the league for 4th Quarters this season.

[LBJMVP]

I think he was 4th in the league in 4th Quarter scoring coming into tonight's game for the season.

Over the last 25 games, he is No. 1 in the league in scoring in the 4th Quarter, averaging over 9 per game in that stretch (he had 9 again tonight in the 4th and another 7 in overtime).

Also, I believe his TS% is No. 1 in the league for 4th Quarters this season.


most impressive thing about his season so far. i can't believe what im watching when the fourth quarter comes. most of the last 25 games he comes in with 6 minutes left in the game. most of these games are all close to, it's not like he is getting these in garbage time!

we are talking about his 4th game winning shot if he hit that bank (im including the sacremento free throws)

[RedBlackAttack]

most impressive thing about his season so far. i can't believe what im watching when the fourth quarter comes. most of the last 25 games he comes in with 6 minutes left in the game. most of these games are all close to, it's not like he is getting these in garbage time!

we are talking about his 4th game winning shot if he hit that bank (im including the sacremento free throws)
Oh, and this just came up on RCF...

After tonight's game, Kyrie is averaging 7.0 points on 53% FG, 47% 3PT and 89% FT shooting in the 4th quarter this season.

In clutch time play he's scoring at a rate of 43 points per game and shooting percentages of 55/80/90.

:eek:

[Meticode]

Oh, and this just came up on RCF...

After tonight's game, Kyrie is averaging 7.0 points on 53% FG, 47% 3PT and 89% FT shooting in the 4th quarter this season.

In clutch time play he's scoring at a rate of 43 points per game and shooting percentages of 55/80/90.

:eek:
I remember you got on me about being a statman. :oldlol:

[RedBlackAttack]

I remember you got on me about being a statman. :oldlol:
The day you see me bring up +/- is the day that you can get on my case. :oldlol:

I'm not opposed to stats, just that particular stat which I consider totally useless. And, what was the word I used for Kyrie early in the season where you got on my back? I don't remember, but the reason I said it was because I could see the writing on the wall.

[AAckley1]

The Cavs could be an excellent situation moving forward. They're really only committed to Irving, Thompson & Varejao long term. Jamison's contract comes off the books after this season (or is it the next?). Granted they'll most likely have to overpay, they could land a 2nd tier FA ala Pacers with David West.

They'll be garnering a late lottery pick & will be aiming to get a wing. Given the make up of their team, I could see them going with a "know what you're going to get" type player like Jeff Taylor before grabbing a boom or bust prospect like either of the Jones' or Quincy Miller.

I'd also like to see them sneak back into the late 1st round and draft Darius Miller a little early. He strikes me as the player in this draft most likely to hit a corner 3 to win multiple playoff series in his career.

[LBJMVP]

The Cavs could be an excellent situation moving forward. They're really only committed to Irving, Thompson & Varejao long term. Jamison's contract comes off the books after this season (or is it the next?). Granted they'll most likely have to overpay, they could land a 2nd tier FA ala Pacers with David West.

They'll be garnering a late lottery pick & will be aiming to get a wing. Given the make up of their team, I could see them going with a "know what you're going to get" type player like Jeff Taylor before grabbing a boom or bust prospect like either of the Jones' or Quincy Miller.

I'd also like to see them sneak back into the late 1st round and draft Darius Miller a little early. He strikes me as the player in this draft most likely to hit a corner 3 to win multiple playoff series in his career.


not even late... right now we have the eighth pick, and we won the lottery with the 8th pick last year.

[AAckley1]

Oh, and this just came up on RCF...

After tonight's game, Kyrie is averaging 7.0 points on 53% FG, 47% 3PT and 89% FT shooting in the 4th quarter this season.

In clutch time play he's scoring at a rate of 43 points per game and shooting percentages of 55/80/90.

:eek:

55/80/90 .... My head just exploded.

[RedBlackAttack]

The Cavs could be an excellent situation moving forward. They're really only committed to Irving, Thompson & Varejao long term. Jamison's contract comes off the books after this season (or is it the next?). Granted they'll most likely have to overpay, they could land a 2nd tier FA ala Pacers with David West.

They'll be garnering a late lottery pick & will be aiming to get a wing. Given the make up of their team, I could see them going with a "know what you're going to get" type player like Jeff Taylor before grabbing a boom or bust prospect like either of the Jones' or Quincy Miller.

I'd also like to see them sneak back into the late 1st round and draft Darius Miller a little early. He strikes me as the player in this draft most likely to hit a corner 3 to win multiple playoff series in his career.

Couple notes...

I would also mention Alonzo Gee in the Kyrie, Tristan, Andy conversation. He has proven to me this year with his tremendous strides in the offseason that he may be a longterm answer.

He began the season as the 6th man off of the bench, but now he has taken the starting SF job away from Omri Casspi and has done quite well in that role. He's averaging 11 points and 5 rebounds on 45% shooting this year and, since becoming a starter, he is averaging 14/6 on 48% from the field.

Plus, he is only 24 and this is only his second season.


Also, we have four picks in the upcoming draft that will all likely be in the Top 35.... Plus two first-round picks next year (our pick and the Lakers' pick).

And, yes, Jamison's contract comes off of the books after this year. We will be way under the cap, even after acquiring Walton's contract in that swap for Sessions.

We couldn't be in a better position, truthfully.

[ihatetimthomas]

Irving played 11 collegiate games, was coming off of an injury, had no training camp or preaseason, is playing a ridiculously condensed schedule and is putting up 19/6/4 on 48/87/41. They were both 19 during the majority of their rookie seasons.

Really?

If you think playing for Duke and playing and learning under one of the greatest coaches ever in Coach K did basically nothing for him, then I dont know what to tell you. He was injured and did not play many games, but he played under one of the greatest bball minds ever and that had to help him develop, wether or not he was on the court. That tutelage is far more than what Lebron had. I am not here trying to say one as better than the other in their rook seasons, but you trying to basically dismiss his year in college is kind of ridiculous. High school to college is far more different. Comparing age is not a fair argument because Kyrie got to play at Duke and learn the game.

[RedBlackAttack]

If you think playing for Duke and playing and learning under one of the greatest coaches ever in Coach K did basically nothing for him, then I dont know what to tell you. He was injured and did not play many games, but he played under one of the greatest bball minds ever and that had to help him develop, wether or not he was on the court. That tutelage is far more than what Lebron had. I am not here trying to say one as better than the other in their rook seasons, but you trying to basically dismiss his year in college is kind of ridiculous. High school to college is far more different. Comparing age is not a fair argument because Kyrie got to play at Duke and learn the game.
I'm not dismissing his year at Duke. I'm quite sure that having some time to learn under one of the greatest coaches ever was very important.

However, that was less the point of the post that you noted, which had more to do with the nature of this season compared to James' rookie year. He had a full offseason to work with professional trainers, a full training camp to work out some kinks, a full preseason to prime his game for the regular season and then a completely normal 82-game season.

I know GOBB is going to laugh at my constantly bringing this up, but it is very important...

For a rookie to come into this league and do what Kyrie has done with basically no offseason work with the coaches and trainers, no training camp or preseason and having to cram 66 games into four months makes it that much more incredible.

So, the question becomes, which was more of a liability? James not having the chance to play some games and learn under Coach K or Kyrie having no offseason program, training camp or preseason and having to play 66 games in four months?

Both are legitimate points that should be factored into the discussion. LeBron averaged a little over one point more than Kyrie, less assists, and a rebound more in 40 minutes a night his rookie season as opposed to Kyrie's 31 minutes a game. There is no way in hell that James at 19 would have been playing those kinds of minutes under these circumstances.

[Meticode]

Couple notes...

I would also mention Alonzo Gee in the Kyrie, Tristan, Andy conversation. He has proven to me this year with his tremendous strides in the offseason that he may be a longterm answer.

He began the season as the 6th man off of the bench, but now he has taken the starting SF job away from Omri Casspi and has done quite well in that role. He's averaging 11 points and 5 rebounds on 45% shooting this year and, since becoming a starter, he is averaging 14/6 on 48% from the field.

Plus, he is only 24 and this is only his second season.


Also, we have four picks in the upcoming draft that will all likely be in the Top 35.... Plus two first-round picks next year (our pick and the Lakers' pick).

And, yes, Jamison's contract comes off of the books after this year. We will be way under the cap, even after acquiring Walton's contract in that swap for Sessions.

We couldn't be in a better position, truthfully.
http://www.fearthesword.com/2012/3/21/2886434/nba-cap-space-cavaliers-rule

...I wasn't aware we were going to have $26 million in cap space... :cheers:

Depending upon how the draft works out, some players I wouldn't mind having...

Roy Hibbert (Restricted)
George Hill (Restricted)
Dahntay Jones (Unrestricted)
Nick Young (Unrestricted)
Nicholas Batum (Restricted)
Courtney Lee (Restricted)

...I'm not sure who we can lure, but I hope we play it smart.

[Meticode]

I can't wait for the summer. June 28th the NBA Draft, July The Dark Knight Rises, later that year free agency. :cheers:

[ihatetimthomas]

I'm not dismissing his year at Duke. I'm quite sure that having some time to learn under one of the greatest coaches ever was very important.

However, that was less the point of the post that you noted, which had more to do with the nature of this season compared to James' rookie year. He had a full offseason to work with professional trainers, a full training camp to work out some kinks, a full preseason to prime his game for the regular season and then a completely normal 82-game season.

I know GOBB is going to laugh at my constantly bringing this up, but it is very important...

For a rookie to come into this league and do what Kyrie has done with basically no training camp or preseason and having to cram 66 games into four months makes it that much more incredible.

So, the question becomes, which was more of a liability? James not having the chance to play some games and learn under Coach K or Kyrie having no offseason program, training camp or preseason and having to play 66 games in four months?

Both are legitimate points that should be factored into the discussion.

Personally I think being able to play under a structured offense and team is better than a few weeks of training camp. I think a year in college in one of the best programs trumps a training camp. Obviously this is up for discussion. And I don't want to make it seem like I don't think he is having an amazing year because he is. I just think you are trying too hard to prove he is having a better year than Lebron when honestly its up for discussion.

[Meticode]

By-the-way, Anthony Davis looks FUUUUUCK UP OMG...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0306/nba_u_draftpanel_gb1_576.jpg

:roll:

[AAckley1]

To RedBlack:

Granted, I don't know how Cavs FO/coaches feel about Gee, I see him as more of a trade chip than a long term cog in their rebuild.

Suppose Gee puts up 15/5 on 50% next season & the Cavs snag the 8th see in the East.

Do they really turn down Gee + Lakers pick (late 20s) + Cavs Pick (late teens) to move into the lottery? I don't think so.

[jb220]

By-the-way, Anthony Davis looks FUUUUUCK YOU OMG...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0306/nba_u_draftpanel_gb1_576.jpg

:roll:
LMAO wtf, ugliest player in NBA history.:roll:

[RedBlackAttack]

Personally I think being able to play under a structured offense and team is better than a few weeks of training camp. I think a year in college in one of the best programs trumps a training camp. Obviously this is up for discussion. And I don't want to make it seem like I don't think he is having an amazing year because he is. I just think you are trying too hard to prove he is having a better year than Lebron when honestly its up for discussion.
Take note, it isn't just the offseason, training camp and preseason... It is also this ludicrous playing schedule that has even the most in-shape veterans accustomed to NBA seasons struggling to acclimate. That is an even more important factor to me than not having the offseason stuff. This schedule is plain nuts.

[FKAri]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/act_stephen_curry.jpg

[RedBlackAttack]

To RedBlack:

Granted, I don't know how Cavs FO/coaches feel about Gee, I see him as more of a trade chip than a long term cog in their rebuild.

Suppose Gee puts up 15/5 on 50% next season & the Cavs snag the 8th see in the East.

Do they really turn down Gee + Lakers pick (late 20s) + Cavs Pick (late teens) to move into the lottery? I don't think so.
It would depend on the strength of the draft, who we were trading with and just how far Gee comes by that point... Impossible to say what I would do at this point with those variables to consider. He does have a very high ceiling due to his extreme athleticism, so another massive improvement this offseason isn't completely out of the realm.

But, even if we accepted what you posted, that is just another reason to be excited about the future of this team. If Gee is eventually worth that much, he is an important piece down the road which was my overriding point.

[Meticode]

RedBlackAttack,

Is there any players you'd particularly like to see signed next year? Depending upon who we draft and what happens to Gee, Batum looks nice.

[cavsfanatic]

Kyrie is a hell of a rookie but imo he wasn't better than Lebron. Just living up to the hype was enough for me to be like damn he gone be a monster. Shooting wise it's not even close but overall I'd go with King Bron lol.

Remember his nba debut http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m0_f-bfWFA&feature=related all the pressure and he put on a show...

Wonder why he let's pressure get to him now smh

[AAckley1]

If Dwight really wanted to win, he'd sign with the Cavs. A 3 man big rotation of Dwight, Varejao & Thompson would be immediately one of the best defensive front courts in the league.

However, that means you'd have to accept Dwight's personality & "handlers", which could be a detriment to a team with the Cavs scrappy "don't count us out" mentality.

[CavaliersFTW]

Oh, and this just came up on RCF...

After tonight's game, Kyrie is averaging 7.0 points on 53% FG, 47% 3PT and 89% FT shooting in the 4th quarter this season.

In clutch time play he's scoring at a rate of 43 points per game and shooting percentages of 55/80/90.

:eek:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z312/Ubersnuber/Meme%20related/1216553137507.jpg

[RedBlackAttack]

RedBlackAttack,

Is there any players you'd particularly like to see signed next year? Depending upon who we draft and what happens to Gee, Batum looks nice.
I like Batum a lot... But I also happen to know that Portland loves him a lot, too. The only possibility that we pry him away from Portland, imo, is if they land the No. 4 pick in this year's draft and take MKG or Barnes... Which is a possibility, although they will probably be targeting someone like Beal (NO!) instead to pair with Batum and LA.

If we don't sign a SG in this draft, I wouldn't mind a guy like Kevin Martin, who is an UFA next season, I believe... That is, if he isn't asking for too much, which he probably will be. Keep in mind he is from Zanesville and I believe he lives in Ohio in the offseason.

Another guy I would like to target that I think would work well with our current make-up is Omer Asik.. And I also happen to know that the Cavs' FO is high on him, as well. I believe this is his last year with a solidified contract and next year is a qualifying offer season.

He would be a great addition, imo, if we could pry him away from the Bulls... Who have a lot of salary to fill out over the next few years.

EDIT: I see Martin is an UFA in 2013-14.

[MavAlbert]

Rodrigue Beaubois shot .518 .409 .808 his rookie year

[RedBlackAttack]

Rodrigue Beaubois shot .518 .409 .808 his rookie year
In 12 minutes a game... and 5 FGAs per game.... With an average of 7 points, 1 rebound and 1 assist per game...

There has to be a statistical cut-off at some point, right? :oldlol:

[AAckley1]

Rodrigue Beaubois shot .518 .409 .808 his rookie year

On 5 shots a game with less than 1 FTA/G. While playing garbage minutes.

Amir Johnson is the greatest shooter of all time if you remove any sample size requirements.

[boxclever]

Always got to be haters hating:lol

OP 'Kyrie is having a phenomenal rookie year and is shooting as well as any rookie ever has' - this is an absolutely undeniable assertion

Haters 'but, but... MJ is better' :facepalm

smdh

[AAckley1]

Always got to be haters hating:lol

OP 'Kyrie is having a phenomenal rookie year and is shooting as well as any rookie ever has' - this is an absolutely undeniable assertion

Haters 'but, but... MJ is better' :facepalm

smdh

Reading comprehension on this forum is at grade school levels most of the time. However, occasionally you get threads featuring posters who can actually use logic & reasoning. These are the types of threads that keep me coming back here to discuss the sport I love.

[DukeDelonte13]

cavs really hit the jackpot with this kid. People actually were saying how Derrick Williams should have gone #1 over Kyrie :oldlol:. Everybody knew that Kyrie was going to be good, but i don't think anybody expected him to have the rookie season he's having.

The basketball gods have blessed cleveland.

[B-Easy8]

This kid is becoming Blake Griffin 2.0. Everyone jumping on his bandwagon and he is becoming vastly overrated.

He is very good but come on he isn't having an all time great rookie season. Stats wise Tyreke had a better rookie year and John Wall had a fairly similar year. People are saying he is great but no one is talking about his missed gamewinner last night.

Im sick of these delusional Cavs fans thinking that he is the next LeBron. You have gotten a good young player but the Kings and Wizards also thought they had superstars in there respective rookie years.

[arifgokcen]

Speaking as someone who watched James in every game that he played his rookie year and I've done the same for Kyrie, Irving is having a pretty clearly superior rookie season. James made a dramatic leap from Year 1 to Year 2. That is when he really began taking off.

He showed signs of brilliance in his rookie year, but he wasn't even close to as consistently good as Irving has been, night-in and night-out.


Most of you forgot something.Lebron rookie season was some of the worst shooting year for wing players because of the new rules and all.
Let me put it like this kobe was down to 24ppg on fg%43 for that year previously he averaged 30ppg on fg%45.I have watched both lebron and irving.Lebron was definitely the superior player at their rookie season.

[Rnbizzle]

This kid is becoming Blake Griffin 2.0. Everyone jumping on his bandwagon and he is becoming vastly overrated.

He is very good but come on he isn't having an all time great rookie season. Stats wise Tyreke had a better rookie year and John Wall had a fairly similar year. People are saying he is great but no one is talking about his missed gamewinner last night.

Im sick of these delusional Cavs fans thinking that he is the next LeBron. You have gotten a good young player but the Kings and Wizards also thought they had superstars in there respective rookie years.
I disagree. Wall and Tyreke were good, the difference is they are great athletes, but Kyrie is so much more fundamentally sound. I think Kyrie has the potential to become a better CP3.

[B-Easy8]

I disagree. Wall and Tyreke were good, the difference is they are great athletes, but Kyrie is so much more fundamentally sound. I think Kyrie has the potential to become a better CP3.

Wall is clearly a superior athlete but Tyreke isn't that athletic he is just extremely strong. People were giving Tyreke Oscar Robertson and LeBron comparisons after his rookie year.

[Rnbizzle]

Wall is clearly a superior athlete but Tyreke isn't that athletic he is just extremely strong. People were giving Tyreke Oscar Robertson and LeBron comparisons after his rookie year.
I know, but Tyreke can't hit a jumper to save his life, he is only a great slasher. Irving can actually do it all, that's what makes him so much more special and that's why OP posted the incredible shooting numbers.

[B-Easy8]

I know, but Tyreke can't hit a jumper to save his life, he is only a great slasher. Irving can actually do it all, that's what makes him so much more special and that's why OP posted the incredible shooting numbers.

Im not saying that Tyreke will be as good as Kyrie, what I meant was that people thought Tyreke was going to be something really special. Despite the fact he couldn't shoot he averaged 20-5-5 as a rookie and people were all over him, they said he could be the smaller version of LeBron if he learnt to shoot. Im just saying that you never know it could happen again.

[plUto or bUst]

I disagree. Wall and Tyreke were good, the difference is they are great athletes, but Kyrie is so much more fundamentally sound. I think Kyrie has the potential to become a better CP3.

Kyrie is a pretty good athlete himself.

You have to wonder, though, is where he can improve his game? His shooting is not going to get (much) better. Really, the only things I see him improving vastly are his court generalship, playmaking, and defense. These parts of his game are a work in progress so he still has a long way to go before catching up to CP3, if he ever gets to that level.

BTW, Stephen Curry arguably put up better shooting numbers his rookie year.

[DukeDelonte13]

This kid is becoming Blake Griffin 2.0. Everyone jumping on his bandwagon and he is becoming vastly overrated.

He is very good but come on he isn't having an all time great rookie season. Stats wise Tyreke had a better rookie year and John Wall had a fairly similar year. People are saying he is great but no one is talking about his missed gamewinner last night.

Im sick of these delusional Cavs fans thinking that he is the next LeBron. You have gotten a good young player but the Kings and Wizards also thought they had superstars in there respective rookie years.


believe you me, nobody in cleveland wants another Lebron.

[AAckley1]

This kid is becoming Blake Griffin 2.0. Everyone jumping on his bandwagon and he is becoming vastly overrated.

He is very good but come on he isn't having an all time great rookie season. Stats wise Tyreke had a better rookie year and John Wall had a fairly similar year. People are saying he is great but no one is talking about his missed gamewinner last night.

Im sick of these delusional Cavs fans thinking that he is the next LeBron. You have gotten a good young player but the Kings and Wizards also thought they had superstars in there respective rookie years.

No one has said he is having an all time great rookie season. He is however having an all-time great shooting season for a rookie and that is clearly evident. Also, it is very rare that a player loses the ability to shoot well. Typically guys who come into the league as great shooters remain so their entire career. That's the difference between Kyrie and some of these other rookie seasons you're talking about. LeBron, Tyreke, Wall ... All of them had the benefit of raw athleticism and a depleted team to put up those numbers. LeBron is the only one who flirted with the playoffs his rookie season. The Cavs this year are the 8th best team in the East before Varejao goes down and that's almost entirely due to Kyrie & the huge improvements in Alonzo Gee's game.

Steph Curry shot similar numbers his rookie season, while being 2 years older & not being the focal point of the Warriors offense. If Kyrie had a player like Monta Ellis, he'd no doubt have higher shooting percentages.

[Droid101]

Switch Kyrie and Rose this season. Are the Bulls better?

I think so. Rose has missed 15 games and Kyrie is a tank.

22.8, 8, 3.5 on 45%/31%/82% (36 minutes per) vs 19, 5.7, 3.8 on 47/41/87 (31 minutes per)?

Give me Kyrie every day of the week.

[blablabla]

i hope he doesnt fall off like reke

[cavsfanatic]

Tyreke was playing out of position. He played pg that whole season and now he starts at Sf. He ain't a sf smh.

[cavsfanatic]

This kid is becoming Blake Griffin 2.0. Everyone jumping on his bandwagon and he is becoming vastly overrated.

He is very good but come on he isn't having an all time great rookie season. Stats wise Tyreke had a better rookie year and John Wall had a fairly similar year. People are saying he is great but no one is talking about his missed gamewinner last night.

Im sick of these delusional Cavs fans thinking that he is the next LeBron. You have gotten a good young player but the Kings and Wizards also thought they had superstars in there respective rookie years.
He's made 5 last second shots and free throws and missed 2. The one vs indy and the one last night. He not gone make everyone... Hell, nobody is gonna make everyone not kobe, Mj (no matter what ESPN tells you) or any human. Jordan missed a lot of Gw's, but he made more than he missed. I'm 29 so I was blessed to see Mj play

[RedBlackAttack]

Most of you forgot something.Lebron rookie season was some of the worst shooting year for wing players because of the new rules and all.
Let me put it like this kobe was down to 24ppg on fg%43 for that year previously he averaged 30ppg on fg%45.I have watched both lebron and irving.Lebron was definitely the superior player at their rookie season.
A. Who cares about new rules for rookies who had never played in the NBA under any other previous rules? I really don't see what you are getting at, there. For guys that had been in the league for 10 years playing under a different set of rules and then being forced to conform to subtle differences that may impact their respective games? Yeah, I can see that.

For James, who had never played under any previous rules and so, therefore, wasn't forced to change his game to adapt to the new rules? How does that even factor into this conversation?

Dwayne Wade shot 47-percent from the field during that same season as a rookie. Melo shot 43-percent from the field during that '03 rookie season.

The reason James struggled with his efficiency from the field had nothing to do with the rules changing. It was because the mechanics on his jumper were absolutely awful that season and, while he was already one of the best athletes in the league at getting to the basket, he was still a little slender and not the physical tank that we would see bowling over people on his way to the basket a couple of seasons later.

Also, he took some really awful shots. Attempting to peg his struggles from the field that season on the rules doesn't pass the smell test.


B. You have watched Kyrie? How many games? How frequently? It's just a little hard to believe considering I haven't seen you in a single game thread or discussing his game in any other thread... Until there is a comparison to LeBron James.


This kid is averaging 19/6/4 on 48/41/87 in 31 minutes in a night... While being in the Top 4 in the league in 4th Quarter scoring for the season, No. 1 in the NBA in 4th Quarter scoring over the last 25 games and he leads the league in stats like PER and TS% in 4th Quarters this season....

Also, he is the third ranked guard ALL-TIME in rookie PER... Also ahead of names like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and way in front of James.

But, you are watching? Let's all be honest with one another, here. I understand why a lot of people don't watch the Cavs frequently. It is understandable. The amazing thing to me is how many people claim to be watching Kyrie so frequently on here any time any conversations like this crop up, meanwhile the game threads has the same 2 or 3 posters in it for every game.

[Killbot]

Damn! I didn't know Kyrie was this beastly.

He needs a nickname.

[DMV2]

It just seems wrong though...this amount of progress is very promising, but at the same time I'd be a little cautious. This is literally too fast for a rookie, and if he does hit a wall, its gonna be HARD.
It didn't hurt LeBron or Rose did it when they were playing 357+ mins in their rookie season?

[PTB Fan]

Certainly up there.

[Dengness9]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: To Kyrie for a great rookie season so far.

Definitely hard to gauge his ceiling.

If i had to start a team tomorrow and had to choose a PG for the future...

1. Derrick Rose
2. Kyrie Irving
3. John Wall
4. Russy Westbrook

To rank him ahead of Wall and Russell is saying a lot as to how i feel about his talent. Rose/Wall/Westbrook are superior when it comes to athleticism, but Kyrie is a better pure shooter than all 3 of them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to Kyrie in year 2. You would expect him to improve but that sophomore slump is tricky one....Cp3, Deron, Rose(started season injured), now Wall all hit some slump in year 2.

[DMV2]

Damn! I didn't know Kyrie was this beastly.

He needs a nickname.
Stone Cold Kyrie Irving because his clutchness is just so cold-blooded.

[noob cake]

This kid is becoming Blake Griffin 2.0. Everyone jumping on his bandwagon and he is becoming vastly overrated.

He is very good but come on he isn't having an all time great rookie season. Stats wise Tyreke had a better rookie year and John Wall had a fairly similar year. People are saying he is great but no one is talking about his missed gamewinner last night.

Im sick of these delusional Cavs fans thinking that he is the next LeBron. You have gotten a good young player but the Kings and Wizards also thought they had superstars in there respective rookie years.

Tyreke Evans didn't have a better rookie season.

Tyreke had a 50% less winshare per 48 minutes (0.151/0.97), 30% less assist rate (36.3/26.1), 20% less PER (21.8/18.2).

Tyreke: 20.1/5.3/5.8 on 37 minutes

Kyrie: 19.0/2.9/5.7 on 31 minutes

Kyrie is having one of the all time great rookie seasons for a guard.

[RaininTwos]

Never seen a number one pick get less scrutiny. I think that Lebron's season was better once you look at the pressure he was under but Kyrie is right there.

[SwooshReturns]

July The Dark Knight Rises
I'm going to explode in my pants on that day, good sir.

[D-Wade316]

Kyrie is having one of the all time great rookie seasons for a guard.
No doubt. I see no objective arguments put up by critics saying Kyrie isn't. His play on the court and statistics prove it.

[AAckley1]

Never seen a number one pick get less scrutiny. I think that Lebron's season was better once you look at the pressure he was under but Kyrie is right there.

What scrutiny does Kyrie deserve? The Cavs were the worst team in the league last year. This year they're a fringe playoff team and Kyrie is putting up historically great shooting for someone of any age, let alone a 19 year old rookie.

The fact remains that only 22 players have ever shot the percentages that Kyrie is shooting while attempting as many 3s & FTs he is.

I'm not even a Cavs fan. They're in my team's division. However, I'm excited to see my Pacers, the Bulls & the Cavs battle it out for the division for the next 10 years.

[GOBB]

I can count on one hand how many rookies have avg 20-5-5 in a season. Bron did it fresh out of high school. You werent spinning it back when it happened. Dont in hindsight.

Anyway, Kyrie is having a great shooting season for a rookie.

[niko]

I can count on one hand how many rookies have avg 20-5-5 in a season. Bron did it fresh out of high school. You werent spinning it back when it happened. Dont in hindsight.

Anyway, Kyrie is having a great shooting season for a rookie.
hey gobb, save my avi and put it on yours so i can switch back to IU.

[RedBlackAttack]

Tyreke Evans didn't have a better rookie season.

Tyreke had a 50% less winshare per 48 minutes (0.151/0.97), 30% less assist rate (36.3/26.1), 20% less PER (21.8/18.2).

Tyreke: 20.1/5.3/5.8 on 37 minutes

Kyrie: 19.0/2.9/5.7 on 31 minutes

Kyrie is having one of the all time great rookie seasons for a guard.
Your rebounds for Kyrie are a little off... He's actually up to 3.8 a game now... Quite good for a PG.

[RedBlackAttack]

Never seen a number one pick get less scrutiny. I think that Lebron's season was better once you look at the pressure he was under but Kyrie is right there.
Have you ever seen one get less accolades? The two go hand-and-hand (accolades/scrutiny).

ESPN has barely touched on him.

[GOBB]

hey gobb, save my avi and put it on yours so i can switch back to IU.

I just did.

[RedBlackAttack]

I can count on one hand how many rookies have avg 20-5-5 in a season. Bron did it fresh out of high school. You werent spinning it back when it happened. Dont in hindsight.

Anyway, Kyrie is having a great shooting season for a rookie.
James had a very good rookie year. He lived up to expectations, which is saying something. The thing you have to realize is, I'm not discounting his regular season, which was fantastic by anyone's standards. But, Kyrie's has been better.

That isn't a slight to James, but a tip of the hat to this kid.

So, OK... You don't want to talk about advanced stats like PER and TS%. Even if we limit it to your basic statistics and percentages...

Do you really think...

20/5/5 on 41/77/28 in 40 minutes a night

is better than

19/6/4 on 48/87/41 in 31 minutes a night

???????

Really?

Yes, what James accomplished his rookie season is very rare. What Kyrie is doing is even more rare. Those percentages are just off-the-charts -- especially for a guard -- and he is doing it while carrying the offensive load basically every night.

[AAckley1]

hey gobb, save my avi and put it on yours so i can switch back to IU.

Do you go to IU? Because I do and that avi exemplifies our campus in so many ways hahahaha

[RaininTwos]

Have you ever seen one get less accolades? The two go hand-and-hand (accolades/scrutiny).

ESPN has barely touched on him.
Yeah, dude is completely playing under the radar, no one talks about him which is sad.

[GOBB]

Do you really think...

20/5/5 on 41/77/28 in 40 minutes a night

is better than

19/6/4 on 48/87/41 in 31 minutes a night

Yes, Bron fresh out of high school where proms and cutting class happened into the NBA in a full season where he did only what 2 other rookies in the history of the game has ever done. The hype, expectations and pressure he had? Enormous.

[AAckley1]

Yes, Bron fresh out of high school where proms and cutting class happened into the NBA in a full season where he did only what 2 other rookies in the history of the game has ever done. The hype, expectations and pressure he had? Enormous.

No rookie have ever done what Kyrie is doing. Steph Curry was close, but shot half as many FT as Irbing and wasn't the focal point of the offense like Kyrie.

[CavaliersFTW]

Damn! I didn't know Kyrie was this beastly.

He needs a nickname.

Dunno if this counts as a good nickname but Austin Carr has called him Kyrie Swirving following his spinning drives to the hoop. :lol

[GOBB]

No rookie have ever done what Kyrie is doing. Steph Curry was close, but shot half as many FT as Irbing and wasn't the focal point of the offense like Kyrie.

Curry shot 46% FG, Irving shooting 47%
Curry shot 44% 3pt, Irving shooting 41% 3pt
Curry shot 89% FT, Irving shooting 87% FT

Just off %'s, it seems Curry did pretty much what Irving is said to be the only one doing.

Curry avg 17.5ppg, Irving avg 19ppg
Curry avg 5.9apg, Irving avg 5.7apg
Curry avg 3.9rpg, Irving avg 3.8rpg
Curry avg 1.9stl, Irving avg 1stl

:confusedshrug:

Looks like Curry pretty much has done what Irving did. But whatever tho.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yes, Bron fresh out of high school where proms and cutting class happened into the NBA in a full season where he did only what 2 other rookies in the history of the game has ever done. The hype, expectations and pressure he had? Enormous.
Not sure what any of that has to do with my question.

20/5/5 on 41/77/28 in 40 minutes > 19/6/4 on 48/87/41 in 31 minutes?

If you want to just automatically award James because he had crazy expectations and he came out of high school, that is all well and good... But the argument that his numbers were better? I disagree with that. I will also contend (as you well know) that Kyrie has had a lot working against him this year.

And, if Kyrie adds a few percentage points to his rebounding average and one more point to his ppg average, that will really mean he has had a far superior season to what he has done thus far? With those same percentages?

There really isn't much difference between 20/5/5 and 19/6/4... there is a massive difference between their efficiency in getting those totals.

[SDtotheBay]

Curry was better (player and shooter).

Post all-star break he was playing the best ball he has ever played so far.

22 ppg, 8 apg, 5.5 rpg on 47% FG, 44% 3pt and 91% FT

that is amazing

[RedBlackAttack]

Curry shot 46% FG, Irving shooting 47%
Curry shot 44% 3pt, Irving shooting 41% 3pt
Curry shot 89% FT, Irving shooting 87% FT

Just off %'s, it seems Curry did pretty much what Irving is said to be the only one doing.

Curry avg 17.5ppg, Irving avg 19ppg
Curry avg 5.9apg, Irving avg 5.7apg
Curry avg 3.9rpg, Irving avg 3.8rpg
Curry avg 1.9stl, Irving avg 1stl

:confusedshrug:

Looks like Curry pretty much has done what Irving did. But whatever tho.
So, you're holding up James' 20/5/5 standard is an amazing statistical feat as compared to 19/6/4, but you are basically saying that averaging 17.5 points is the same as averaging 19 points?

Be consistent at least.

[RedBlackAttack]

Curry was better (player and shooter).

Post all-star break he was playing the best ball he has ever played so far.

22 ppg, 8 apg, 5.5 rpg on 47% FG, 44% 3pt and 91% FT

that is amazing
Condensed season?

And Kyrie's post-all-star numbers are very similar... and he had a much better first half of the season. As far as I can tell, we count whole seasons when evaluating rookie years.

To say that Curry had a better rookie year than Irving is having is just insane.

[SwooshReturns]

Curry was not better than Kyrie Irving has been this season.

Irving is a superior playmaker, which you want out of a ball dominant PG.

Curry needs to be more like his pops. Learn the old school SG game. Learn to move without the ball, catch and shoot. he could find a nice niche in the league following the foot steps of Reggie, Ray Allen, and RIP.

Him and his glass ankles shouldn't be trying to take people off the dribble.

[GOBB]

Not sure what any of that has to do with my question.

20/5/5 on 41/77/28 in 40 minutes > 19/6/4 on 48/87/41 in 31 minutes?

If you want to just automatically award James because he had crazy expectations and he came out of high school, that is all well and good... But the argument that his numbers were better? I disagree with that. I will also contend (as you well know) that Kyrie has had a lot working against him this year.

And, if Kyrie adds a few percentage points to his rebounding average and one more point to his ppg average, that will really mean he has had a far superior season to what he has done thus far? With those same percentages?

There really isn't much difference between 20/5/5 and 19/6/4... there is a massive difference between their efficiency in getting those totals.

And there is an enormous difference with the pressure, expectations and hyped placed on a teenager fresh out of high school. Somehow you dont factor that into the equation. You can side with the efficiency. I'll side with a kid who is facing the kind of pressure legitimate franchise players face. All eyes were on Bron to live up to the hype and deliver. All eyes were on the so called Messiah, King James, best talent to come out since Mary gave birth to Jesus. To me a player facing this is huge and how they deliver is what I look at. Bron delivered. I'm not going to nitpick his %'s. I'm going to say I've never seen a high school with that much riding on his shoulders to carry a franchise at that age? Is impressive. Only MJ and Big O did 20-5-5, and here a teenager comes along and joins the club. Give all that we've heard about him.

Kyrie is having a fantastic rookie season. He's impressive shooting the ball. And while you complain about the lack of exposure? I think its helped him. He can just go out and play. Bron had an entire city, a league even staring at him. That means more to me than playing the %'s. It may not have anything to do with the kind of reply you would like to hear. But thats how I look at it and why he did what he did back then was amazing.

[AAckley1]

Curry shot 46% FG, Irving shooting 47%
Curry shot 44% 3pt, Irving shooting 41% 3pt
Curry shot 89% FT, Irving shooting 87% FT

Just off %'s, it seems Curry did pretty much what Irving is said to be the only one doing.

Curry avg 17.5ppg, Irving avg 19ppg
Curry avg 5.9apg, Irving avg 5.7apg
Curry avg 3.9rpg, Irving avg 3.8rpg
Curry avg 1.9stl, Irving avg 1stl

:confusedshrug:

Looks like Curry pretty much has done what Irving did. But whatever tho.
It would appear that way until you look at more advanced stats.

Steph Curry rookie year: 44% of shots were assisted on.
Kyrie Irving: 30% of shots assisted on.

This shows that while putting up nearly the same # of shots, Curry was being assisted 50% more than Kyrie is. Which supports my argument that Kyrie is shouldering more of the offense than Steph ever had to since Monta was on the team. If Kyrie had one of the penetrating guards in the league, his shooting numbers would be even more inflated.

[LBJMVP]

James had a very good rookie year. He lived up to expectations, which is saying something. The thing you have to realize is, I'm not discounting his regular season, which was fantastic by anyone's standards. But, Kyrie's has been better.

That isn't a slight to James, but a tip of the hat to this kid.

So, OK... You don't want to talk about advanced stats like PER and TS%. Even if we limit it to your basic statistics and percentages...

Do you really think...

20/5/5 on 41/77/28 in 40 minutes a night

is better than

19/6/4 on 48/87/41 in 31 minutes a night

???????

Really?

Yes, what James accomplished his rookie season is very rare. What Kyrie is doing is even more rare. Those percentages are just off-the-charts -- especially for a guard -- and he is doing it while carrying the offensive load basically every night.

i'd seriously say irving is having a better rookie season as well. lebron played practically 10 more minutes a game then irving and averaged 1 more point, the same assist (i expect irvings assist numbers to be higher at the end of the season), and 2 more rebounds.

irving is one of the clutchess players in the NBA right now as well (something he is better than lebron at in currents standards)


yes james is part of the 20/5/5 club... but irving is fractions away from that. plus irving shoots better in every category, is way more efficient (just look at PER, which im not a big fan of, but he is up their with MJ and CP3)

many people are just saying lebrons season was better simply because he is lebron. just because he came out of high school doesn't mean he had a better season... he was great coming out of high school and played 11 less games of basketball than kyrie going in to the NBA.

sure kyie had coach K, but there is nothing more important than game time experience.

this team was second to last in the NBA and lost 26 straight last year, now we keep almost every game close and can beat anyone in the league (beat OKC at home, Utah, and houston all in a row) we couldn't have dreamt that last year.


by the way here is a great article comparing the two rookie seasons.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1112566-lebron-james-vs-kyrie-irving-is-irving-having-better-rookie-year-than-lebron
"Through 43 games in the NBA, during their rookie years, LeBron's 2003-04 Cavaliers team was 15-28 whereas Irving's 2011-12 team is 17-26, which takes away the argument of which team was better during each players' rookie season."

[GOBB]

It would appear that way until you look at more advanced stats.

Steph Curry rookie year: 44% of shots were assisted on.
Kyrie Irving: 30% of shots assisted on.

This shows that while putting up nearly the same # of shots, Curry was being assisted 50% more than Kyrie is. Which supports my argument that Kyrie is shouldering more of the offense than Steph ever had to since Monta was on the team. If Kyrie had one of the penetrating guards in the league, his shooting numbers would be even more inflated.

Or they could remain the same. I dont like when fans play with stats like this.

Especially minutes per game. This guy avg this in 35mpg while the other avg this is 30mpg. If the guy with 30mpg avg 5 more minutes? He would EASILY have better averages than the guy with 35mpg. The game of basketball doesnt work that way.

Kyrie Irving averages more minutes then who is to say his percentages wouldnt be open to going down. And nothing signicant. But 47% can go down to 44-45%, 41% from 3pt could go down to 39%. Why? I dont get into all that crap honestly.

So now while Curry %'s appear better than Irving? You're now setting specific criteria on who was getting assisted on more than the other. More stats we're messing around with.

[RaininTwos]

Curry was not better than Kyrie Irving has been this season.

Irving is a superior playmaker, which you want out of a ball dominant PG.

Curry needs to be more like his pops. Learn the old school SG game. Learn to move without the ball, catch and shoot. he could find a nice niche in the league following the foot steps of Reggie, Ray Allen, and RIP.

Him and his glass ankles shouldn't be trying to take people off the dribble.
:applause: :lol

[AAckley1]

The discussion is about Kyrie being a better shooter. Therefore, the number of his shots that he is being assisted on is a relevant criteria. If we set no criteria, Amir Johnson had the greatest shooting rookie season of all time. However, siting criteria that is relevant to the discussion isn't being misleading in any way. Great shooters shoot better when they're receiving the ball on an assist.

Steph received the ball on assists 50% more than Kyrie. It's plain ignorance to suggest that didn't increase his shooting percentages.

[GOBB]

So Steph Curry isnt a great shooter when he isnt being assisted too. I follow the logic.

[noob cake]

So Steph Curry isnt a great shooter when he isnt being assisted too. I follow the logic.

...some of these trolls are ridiculous.

The Lebron argument failed, so they bring out Tyreke. Tyreke fails so now they are on to Curry.

By the time this thread gets to 20 pages, the haters would have exhausted their options.

[LBJMVP]

...some of these trolls are ridiculous.

The Lebron argument failed, so they bring out Tyreke. Tyreke fails so now they are on to Curry.

By the time this thread gets to 20 pages, the haters would have exhausted their options.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1112566-lebron-james-vs-kyrie-irving-is-irving-having-better-rookie-year-than-lebron

read this....

[AAckley1]

So Steph Curry isnt a great shooter when he isnt being assisted too. I follow the logic.

I didn't say that anywhere in my post. Steph Curry is an amazing shooter, but it's ignorant to say that his shooting %s weren't benefitted by the fact he received 50% more assisted shots than Kyrie.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Ignore the butthurt loser that has over 50,000 posts

[AAckley1]

...some of these trolls are ridiculous.

The Lebron argument failed, so they bring out Tyreke. Tyreke fails so now they are on to Curry.

By the time this thread gets to 20 pages, the haters would have exhausted their options.

Do you even know how to read? Did you read ANY of my posts in this thread? I'm not saying that Kyrie is having a better rookie season than LeBron. Given all the immense pressure LeBron was under (that he & his handlers created, but that's another thread for another time) the fact that he put up 20/5/5 is no doubt impressive. But for anyone to even attempt to argue that either LeBron or Tyreke were better SHOOTERS than Kyrie is plain ignorance.

[Cali Syndicate]

Right now, Kyrie is putting up 47/40/87%. No rookie ever has shot those percentages on the number of shots he is attempting. What's more impressive is when you look at the players who have ever put up seasons comparable to Irving's.

For players who have shot >= 47/40/86 with at least 2 3PTA a game, it's essentially a list of the greatest shooters of all time.

Steve Nash: 10 seasons
Miller, Mullins: 4 seasons
Allen, Bird, Hornacek: 3 seasons
Ainge, Barros, B. Barry, Calderon, Hawkins, Legler, Nowitzki, Price, Smith, Stojakavic, Sczerbiak: 2 seasons

Two recent rookie seasons come to mind....

Anthony Morrow, First rookie to ever lead the league in 3pt%
47.8 fg%, 46.7 3pt% and 87 ft%

Steph Curry
46.2 fg%, 43.7 3pt% and 88.5 ft%

Edit: 9 pages deep, should have assumed this has already been said... Oh well.

[GOBB]

Two recent rookie seasons come to mind....

Anthony Morrow, First rookie to ever lead the league in 3pt%
47.8 fg%, 46.7 3pt% and 87 ft%

Steph Curry
46.2 fg%, 43.7 3pt% and 88.5 ft%

Edit: 9 pages deep, should have assumed this has already been said... Oh well.

Yeah both those two were assisted on far more than Kyrie Irving. So they dont count.

[AAckley1]

The criteria was 2 3PTA/G & 3 FTA/G. Says so in my original post. Neither Curry or Morrow reached those criteria so they didn't show up in the search results.

[LBJMVP]

The criteria was 2 3PTA/G & 3 FTA/G. Says so in my original post. Neither Curry or Morrow reached those criteria so they didn't show up in the search results.

yup, all information needed to understand the thread is in the first post.

but, for someone reason they still try to prove you wrong even though your OP is 100% true. :roll:

[GOBB]

The criteria was 2 3PTA/G & 3 FTA/G. Says so in my original post. Neither Curry or Morrow reached those criteria so they didn't show up in the search results.

Nice criteria. Seems like you made it that way on purpose. Wait what?

[AAckley1]

Nice criteria. Seems like you made it that way on purpose. Wait what?

Once again, something I already admitted to in this thread. Yet, the criteria aren't that outlandish. If I had made the criteria less, then people would complain about sample size.

If they're attempting > 2 3PT/G & 3 FT/G, it shows they aren't just floating around looking for good shots, but attacking the lane and getting fouled as well.

3 FT a game means Kyrie is going to the line at least twice a game so that creates a larger sample size to prove his FT% isn't a fluke. He's also attempting 3 3PT a game another large sample size to prove that his 3PT% is no fluke.

I could have dropped it down to 2.5 FT/G and Curry would have been included, but I didn't because no one actually attempts 2.5 FTs in any game.

Same thing with Morrow. His attempts were 8 FG, 2.7 3s & 1.5 FTs.

But what do I know...I'm only a statistics major at one of the best public colleges in the nation.

[GOBB]

Curry avg 2.5 FTA over an entire season. Thats mean the majority of the games he played he got to the line atleast 2 times. Yanno, kinda like how Kyrie has got to the FTA atleast 2 times as he avg 3 FTA per game. Normally in basketball when you're a good shooter and efficient from midrange-out? You're a good FT shooter. So no one would consider his FT% a fluke.

[Cali Syndicate]

The criteria was 2 3PTA/G & 3 FTA/G. Says so in my original post. Neither Curry or Morrow reached those criteria so they didn't show up in the search results.

This is what it says in the OP.


For players who have shot >= 47/40/86 with at least 2 3PTA a game, it's essentially a list of the greatest shooters of all time.

Morrow fits well into that criteria.

But if you want to add the FTA then yeah, count Morrow out then. FTA wasn't part of the initial criteria I read. Guess it is now? Not sure what FTA have to do with the claim of being "the best rookie shooter ever" anyways though.

And Curry is easily one of the best shooters in the game. His rookie season is one of the best shooting seasons for a rookie. By your criteria, sure Curry doesn't fit but try a criteria for

46 fg%, 43 3pt% and 88 ft% with at least 4 3point attempts and 2 free throw attempts per game

and Irving won't be listed, but Curry will.

[plUto or bUst]

Once again, something I already admitted to in this thread. Yet, the criteria aren't that outlandish. If I had made the criteria less, then people would complain about sample size.

If they're attempting > 2 3PT/G & 3 FT/G, it shows they aren't just floating around looking for good shots, but attacking the lane and getting fouled as well.

3 FT a game means Kyrie is going to the line at least twice a game so that creates a larger sample size to prove his FT% isn't a fluke. He's also attempting 3 3PT a game another large sample size to prove that his 3PT% is no fluke.

I could have dropped it down to 2.5 FT/G and Curry would have been included, but I didn't because no one actually attempts 2.5 FTs in any game.

Same thing with Morrow. His attempts were 8 FG, 2.7 3s & 1.5 FTs.

But what do I know...I'm only a statistics major at one of the best public colleges in the nation.

Change majors dude. You are hopeless as a statistics major.

When you look at what is flukey, you never look at per game averages. You look at a sample size.

If player A averages 10 FT's a game and shoots 90%, but does it for one game, it is more flukey then player B who averages 2FT's a game and shoots 90%, but does it for 100 games. Player A only shot 10 FTs while player B shot 200. You would say player A is more of a fluke even though he has higher FT average per game.

So lets look at sample size:

Curry rookie season shot 200 FT. Irving so far has shot 169. If anything, Irving's FT % is more flukey since it is a smaller sample size.

[AAckley1]

Change majors dude. You are hopeless as a statistics major.

So lets look at sample size:

Curry rookie season shot 200 FT. Irving so far has shot 169. If anything, Irving's FT % is more flukey since it is a smaller sample size.

You do realize this season is shorter, isn't over & Kyrie is shooting more FT a game right? Therefore over the same number of games...has a larger sample size than Curry.

But yes. I'm hopeless as a statistics major. I guess I should just change since I'm graduating in a few months huh ?

[Meticode]

You do realize this season is shorter, isn't over & Kyrie is shooting more FT a game right? Therefore over the same number of games...has a larger sample size than Curry.

But yes. I'm hopeless as a statistics major. I guess I should just change since I'm graduating in a few months huh ?
Just do what I do and thank them for their honesty. :D

[chips93]

he always has great balance when hes pulling up for the jumper. like cp3, he stays low, and gets his feet set underneath him before he rises up and shoots. this is something tiny that makes a huge difference. a lot of nba vets could learn something about footwork from him.

[RedBlackAttack]

And there is an enormous difference with the pressure, expectations and hyped placed on a teenager fresh out of high school. Somehow you dont factor that into the equation. You can side with the efficiency. I'll side with a kid who is facing the kind of pressure legitimate franchise players face. All eyes were on Bron to live up to the hype and deliver. All eyes were on the so called Messiah, King James, best talent to come out since Mary gave birth to Jesus. To me a player facing this is huge and how they deliver is what I look at. Bron delivered. I'm not going to nitpick his %'s. I'm going to say I've never seen a high school with that much riding on his shoulders to carry a franchise at that age? Is impressive. Only MJ and Big O did 20-5-5, and here a teenager comes along and joins the club. Give all that we've heard about him.

Kyrie is having a fantastic rookie season. He's impressive shooting the ball. And while you complain about the lack of exposure? I think its helped him. He can just go out and play. Bron had an entire city, a league even staring at him. That means more to me than playing the %'s. It may not have anything to do with the kind of reply you would like to hear. But thats how I look at it and why he did what he did back then was amazing.
I'm not getting into all that stuff. How do you accurately gauge the amount of pressure on a player and how that makes up for a difference in production/efficiency? It is just about impossible to have any kind of accurate criteria when introducing outside stuff like that.

I'm judging them based on their respective games during their rookie seasons... How effective, efficient, productive, clutch, consistent, etc. they are/were.

And, when going by that criteria, I think Kyrie has been comfortably the better player. That isn't to say that he has the upside of James or that he will eventually be as good as James is now. That is NOT what I am saying.

It is a simple criteria of who was the better player in their first year... and, to me, LeBron was great... Kyrie has been phenomenal.

The fact that he leads the league in PER and TS% in 4th Quarters and leads the league in 4th Quarter scoring over the last 25 games is just absurd to me when you look at the amount of talent throughout the league, the fact that this KID is 19 years old and the fact that the Cavs have basically no one else offensively that defenses have to worry about. He is averaging close to 10 points per 4th Quarter over the last 25 games, which is almost half of this season... And he was damn good before he went on this clutch terror (top 4 in 4th Quarter scoring for the season).

Just nuts. And, it is about time that people start recognizing it.

[GOBB]

He's only 19? Wow.

[Meticode]

He's only 19? Wow.
Until tomorrow! I wished him happy brithday on Twitter and told him to wish for a Cavs high draft pick. :roll:

[RedBlackAttack]

He's only 19? Wow.
Crazy, isn't it? He is way too consistent to be this young. That is really the most amazing part. LeBron had games during his rookie season that took my breath away. You could see that when he started to bring it day-in and day-out, he was almost certainly going to be amongst the best in the league.

But, he also had some downright awful games... A lot of them. And, that is to be expected from a 19-year-old rookie.

Except, somehow, Kyrie doesn't abide by that rule. :oldlol:

He has been blowing my mind literally every night. There have been times where, for three quarters, I've thought, "Ok, here is your proverbial bad rookie performance." Then, he'll score 18 points in the 4th Quarter. Scenarios like that have happened multiple times this year.

He has been phenomenal. And, I feel like only true Cavs fans know just how amazing he has been, because while people are beginning to pay attention now, for those of us that have seen every game this year... it is totally mind-blowing how consistently great he is already.

[Meticode]

I'm so burnt out on reading about Kyrie it feels like if we talk too much about it we're going to jinx ourselves and everyone will point and laugh when the time comes at us Cavaliers.

In the end, I hope he develops and gets better and nothing major happens to him injury-wise. For example, Jeff Green had a really bright NBA future, gets traded, has heart surgery threatening his career. Jay Williams looks like a solid NBA PG, then after one season he was no more.

I just hope we can build from the ground up, add some key pieces and start a run again towards Cleveland's first title next to forever.

[GOBB]

I know he's only 19 fellas, I was just being an ass.

The impressive thing from him to me isnt the efficiency which is nice. But his control, handles, floor IQ. He's in control, has sick handles to keep a defender guessing (drive because he has nice english or jumper) and understands the game. He was on nbatv, talkin about plays similar to Gruden QB camp. He's not just going thru the motion he's playing basketball. So that stuff impresses me the most than the %'s.

He has a clue. Not many rookie PGs can say that. I like Jrue Holiday but he hesistates at times whether its to pass, shoot, score. His decision making has been off and on (inconsistent). I dont know if its due to Doug Collins being in his ear/tough on him or what (fact he likes Evan/Iggy types to control rock). But with Kyrie he seems to get it. Atleast from the games I've watched.

[GOBB]

I'm so burnt out on reading about Kyrie it feels like if we talk too much about it we're going to jinx ourselves and everyone will point and laugh when the time comes at us Cavaliers.

In the end, I hope he develops and gets better and nothing major happens to him injury-wise. For example, Jeff Green had a really bright NBA future, gets traded, has heart surgery threatening his career. Jay Williams looks like a solid NBA PG, then after one season he was no more.

I just hope we can build from the ground up, add some key pieces and start a run again towards Cleveland's first title next to forever.

It could go that way where one season we're :bowdown: and the next season we're :confusedshrug:

I dont think that will be the case with Kyrie Irving. So I say no need to think about the bad that could potentially happen. Focus on the good within reason. Cavs just need to draft good the next two drafts and lets see what unfolds. Only two teams I want drafting #1 overall is Cleveland and Wash. Davis needs to be with a PG.

[Meticode]

It could go that way where one season we're :bowdown: and the next season we're :confusedshrug:

I dont think that will be the case with Kyrie Irving. So I say no need to think about the bad that could potentially happen. Focus on the good within reason. Cavs just need to draft good the next two drafts and lets see what unfolds. Only two teams I want drafting #1 overall is Cleveland and Wash. Davis needs to be with a PG.
Pick 'n Roll!

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm so burnt out on reading about Kyrie it feels like if we talk too much about it we're going to jinx ourselves and everyone will point and laugh when the time comes at us Cavaliers.

In the end, I hope he develops and gets better and nothing major happens to him injury-wise. For example, Jeff Green had a really bright NBA future, gets traded, has heart surgery threatening his career. Jay Williams looks like a solid NBA PG, then after one season he was no more.

I just hope we can build from the ground up, add some key pieces and start a run again towards Cleveland's first title next to forever.
I hear you. I'm not worried about jinxing ourselves and having everyone point and laugh, though, because up this point, we are on the money. He has been that good thus far. If he falls off the rookie cliff and never recovers (which I don't see happening), we will still have been right in talking about his rookie season up to this point.

I'm not saying that he is going to be the greatest player ever or the best player in the league down the road. He may be amongst the very elite, he may not... But, what he has done up to this point has been phenomenal and it warrants the talk.

I hear you on being burnt out on it, but in Kyrie's case, if we don't talk, who will? :oldlol:

During James' rookie season, we didn't have to say anything. His games headlined SportsCenter every night, just about, and there was a running tracker of all of his statistics on every sports-related website from his first game until his last.

There was no need for us to discuss how great he looked... Everyone else did it for us. I don't think I ever hyped James up one time during his time in Cleveland. The attention he received took care of all that for me.

In Kyrie's case, if people like me and you -- the very few that have actually been watching this kid do his thing all year -- don't talk about him, this thing would practically be going unnoticed which is absurd with the way he has played.


I know he's only 19 fellas, I was just being an ass.

The impressive thing from him to me isnt the efficiency which is nice. But his control, handles, floor IQ. He's in control, has sick handles to keep a defender guessing (drive because he has nice english or jumper) and understands the game. He was on nbatv, talkin about plays similar to Gruden QB camp. He's not just going thru the motion he's playing basketball. So that stuff impresses me the most than the %'s.

He has a clue. Not many rookie PGs can say that. I like Jrue Holiday but he hesistates at times whether its to pass, shoot, score. His decision making has been off and on (inconsistent). I dont know if its due to Doug Collins being in his ear/tough on him or what (fact he likes Evan/Iggy types to control rock). But with Kyrie he seems to get it. Atleast from the games I've watched.

Trust me, I know when you are in "devil's advocate" mode and this was an obvious case.

And, it also helps Kyrie that he has Byron showing him the ropes. Really, this is a perfect situation in Cleveland for something special to happen. I feel like we have one of the very best coaches in the league, one of the best young PGs, an owner who wants to spend whatever it takes, a GM who seems totally competent, a bunch of draft picks, other nice young pieces like Thompson and Gee...

It is just exactly where you want to be as a team in its second season of rebuilding mode... Only two years removed from winning 60+ games with a completely different situation.

Amazing how quickly things have changed. There is going to come a point where people are going to have to start praising this organization.

[G-train]

People have short memories, especially cavs fans whos brains got fried in an instant of "south beach" slipping out the Kings mouth.
You can mount a statistical argument that Irving had a better season as a rookie, based on shooting percentages mostly.
But anyone who watched both rookie seasons from an unbiased point of view can clearly see that Lebron's was better.
Take away the fact he was straight out of HS and had more pressure on him than any rookie in any sport EVER, and its still better.
He basically did what he does today, but just not as refined. He impacted possession after possession with sheer athleticism and guard play in an 6'8 frame.
He wasn't a PG expected to drop 10/5 and make good decisions while making open shots. He was 'all time great lite', even as a rookie. He was like Dr J. He was a PHENOM.
Irving is playing fantastic, smart, quality and surprisingly at times creative ball. James was REDEFINING basketball like no one since Shaq. BIG difference.
To suggest otherwise is FALSE.

[RedBlackAttack]

People have short memories, especially cavs fans whos brains got fried in an instant of "south beach" slipping out the Kings mouth.
You can mount a statistical argument that Irving had a better season as a rookie, based on shooting percentages mostly.
But anyone who watched both rookie seasons from an unbiased point of view can clearly see that Lebron's was better.
Take away the fact he was straight out of HS and had more pressure on him than any rookie in any sport EVER, and its still better.
He basically did what he does today, but just not as refined. He impacted possession after possession with sheer athleticism and guard play in an 6'8 frame.
He wasn't a PG expected to drop 10/5 and make good decisions while making open shots. He was 'all time great lite', even as a rookie. He was like Dr J. He was a PHENOM.
Irving is playing fantastic, smart, quality and surprisingly at times creative ball. James was REDEFINING basketball like no one since Shaq. BIG difference.
To suggest otherwise is FALSE.
I'm quite sure you've seen a sh!t ton of Cavs games this year. :oldlol:

Funny thing is, you are throwing out the statistics and basing your opinion on "watching the games." How many Cavs games have you seen this year? Serious question. Be honest.

You are just going to toss my opinion aside based on James ditching Cleveland and, in the process, dismissing one of the only people on the site who has actually watched every Cavs game this year and every Cavs game LeBron's rookie year.

Because, I couldn't possibly have a valid opinion. You, on the other hand, have a tight grasp on how each guy had played in every game of their rookie seasons. Being a Heat fan and all.

[zizozain]

only lebron prostitutes hating on Cavs and the city of Cleveland

move on .. prostitutes

[chips93]

only lebron prostitutes hating on Cavs and the city of Cleveland

move on .. prostitutes


nobody finds this gimmick funny

move on

welcome to ignore.

[LBJMVP]

People have short memories, especially cavs fans whos brains got fried in an instant of "south beach" slipping out the Kings mouth.
You can mount a statistical argument that Irving had a better season as a rookie, based on shooting percentages mostly.
But anyone who watched both rookie seasons from an unbiased point of view can clearly see that Lebron's was better.
Take away the fact he was straight out of HS and had more pressure on him than any rookie in any sport EVER, and its still better.
He basically did what he does today, but just not as refined. He impacted possession after possession with sheer athleticism and guard play in an 6'8 frame.
He wasn't a PG expected to drop 10/5 and make good decisions while making open shots. He was 'all time great lite', even as a rookie. He was like Dr J. He was a PHENOM.
Irving is playing fantastic, smart, quality and surprisingly at times creative ball. James was REDEFINING basketball like no one since Shaq. BIG
difference.
To suggest otherwise is FALSE.


LMAO without using any statistics you could say kyrie is better. way better closing games. if you look at the first 45 games of lebrons first season and the first 45 of kyries, guess who has the better record? kyrie irving.

leading the league in 4th quarter scoring the last 25 games as well as shooting percentage in the 4th and PER. 4th in the league overall in 4th quarter scoring.

better shooting in every category. lebron had better teammates his rookie season then kyrie as well.

just read this.

then, if your really want to through in statistics then kyrie is better than lebron as well.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1112566-lebron-james-vs-kyrie-irving-is-irving-having-better-rookie-year-than-lebron

[G-train]

I'm quite sure you've seen a sh!t ton of Cavs games this year. :oldlol:

Funny thing is, you are throwing out the statistics and basing your opinion on "watching the games." How many Cavs games have you seen this year? Serious question. Be honest.

You are just going to toss my opinion aside based on James ditching Cleveland and, in the process, dismissing one of the only people on the site who has actually watched every Cavs game this year and every Cavs game LeBron's rookie year.

Because, I couldn't possibly have a valid opinion. You, on the other hand, have a tight grasp on how each guy had played in every game of their rookie seasons. Being a Heat fan and all.

I've seen about 15 Cavs games, and every Heat game. I am actually a Cavs fan, supporting them as a second favorite team. I have international league pass and I use it fairly often.
I am aware you have a good hold on what is happening this season.
I am also aware that many cavs fans including yourself are now no longer good judges of Lebron, and probably never will be.

Lebron as a rookie played 79 games. He averaged 21 points, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.7 bpg at 42/29/75%. Out of the 79, I admit he had 15 or so poor games (good considering age).
However his rookie year was also littered with great games, some that Irving may never play as good as.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2004/
Consider game 1. 25/6/9 adn 4 stls. Incredible debut.
Consider game 68. 41/6/13 3 stls.
Here are some highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnbpW7eZZg
Not that you or others will watch.
I watched many games that season as well.
IMO, James had a better season.

I also strongly believe that most Cavs fans are no longer a valid source of Lebron facts, but some including yourself are accurate this season in regards to Irving.

[LBJMVP]

I've seen about 15 Cavs games, and every Heat game. I am actually a Cavs fan, supporting them as a second favorite team. I have international league pass and I use it fairly often.
I am aware you have a good hold on what is happening this season.
I am also aware that many cavs fans including yourself are now no longer good judges of Lebron, and probably never will be.

Lebron as a rookie played 79 games. He averaged 21 points, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.7 bpg at 42/29/75%. Out of the 79, I admit he had 15 or so poor games (good considering age).
However his rookie year was also littered with great games, some that Irving may never play as good as.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2004/
Consider game 1. 25/6/9 adn 4 stls. Incredible debut.
Consider game 68. 41/6/13 3 stls.
Here are some highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnbpW7eZZg
Not that you or others will watch.
I watched many games that season as well.
IMO, James had a better season.

I also strongly believe that most Cavs fans are no longer a valid source of Lebron facts, but some including yourself are accurate this season in regards to Irving.


so lebron averages 2 more points, and 1.5 more rebounds in 9 more minutes a game... and can do flashy dunks? kyrie is so much more efficient during this season it isn't even funny. and don't even start on fourth quarter play.


the more games you give kyrie the more his stats will improve. so you better be happy he isnt playing 79 games because he could join lebron in the 20/5/5 group. hell he might even still do it, and he may do with record setting FG percentages.

can you tell me the last rookie to lead the league in 4th quarter scoring, 4th quarter FG percentage (there must be a sample size to), and fourth quarter PER? cause this may very well happen this season.

[It's A VC3!!!]

The thing that impresses me about Irving is his determination to take the fourth quarter shots. When the Cavs played the Nets he seemed uninterested for 3 quarters. When the fourth quarter came, especially towards the end he started going into attack mode and was relentless. But he has been doing that all year. I won't get into comparisons because I almost NEVER do them, but this guy can definitely fill James shoes in a few years. He won't be as flashy, but his stats are beautiful for a rookie.

[G-train]

the more games you give kyrie the more his stats will improve. so you better be happy he isnt playing 79 games because he could join lebron in the 20/5/5 group. hell he might even still do it, and he may do with record setting FG percentages.


Or they could decrease as is often the case with rookies.

[RedBlackAttack]

I've seen about 15 Cavs games, and every Heat game. I am actually a Cavs fan, supporting them as a second favorite team. I have international league pass and I use it fairly often.
I am aware you have a good hold on what is happening this season.
I am also aware that many cavs fans including yourself are now no longer good judges of Lebron, and probably never will be.

Lebron as a rookie played 79 games. He averaged 21 points, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.7 bpg at 42/29/75%. Out of the 79, I admit he had 15 or so poor games (good considering age).
However his rookie year was also littered with great games, some that Irving may never play as good as.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2004/
Consider game 1. 25/6/9 adn 4 stls. Incredible debut.
Consider game 68. 41/6/13 3 stls.
Here are some highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnbpW7eZZg
Not that you or others will watch.
I watched many games that season as well.
IMO, James had a better season.

I also strongly believe that most Cavs fans are no longer a valid source of Lebron facts, but some including yourself are accurate this season in regards to Irving.

You don't have to consider me a 'valid source of LeBron facts' if you don't want to. The fact of the matter is, though, that I haven't disparaged his game a single time since he left Cleveland. I've continually called him the best player in the NBA (still do) and I've consistently said that he may be the most physically gifted player that I have ever seen.

It is no secret that I don't like James. I don't appreciate his arrogance or how he handled his business or really anything about his public personality in general. I also don't want him back in Cleveland (not that he ever would come back) because I simply don't like the guy. And, I was appalled that he decided to play with what I considered the second best player in the league and his biggest rival.

That said, through all of my ranting and raving against James last year (if you've noticed, I've barely spoken about him at all this year), I never criticized his skillset, ludicrous athleticism or all-around game. I'm just an easy target to dismiss because I'm the most outspoken Cavaliers fan on this board, so I couldn't possibly have a 'factual opinion' regarding James.

But, my gripes with James had nothing to do with his play on the court, unless you are referring to his disappearance in Boston in 2010 and in the Finals last year, wherein he deserved any and all criticism... And I barely even commented on that.

I respect his game. I don't respect him.


James had a great rookie year considering the circumstances, but it was hardly one of the great rookie seasons of all-time. In fact, there were A LOT of people who believed Melo deserved ROY that season and he had a legitimate gripe, although I gave it to James.

Where James really took off were in seasons two and three. The signs were there in his rookie year and he had a great year, but compared to this season by Irving or, say, CP3's rookie season, he was relatively inconsistent and inefficient.

Of course I remember some of the great games he had. But, a handful of outstanding games does not mean he is automatically better than a guy who may not explode in such a manner, but is far more consistent. And, once again, there is no way in hell that James would be playing 40 minutes a night if he were a rookie with this year's schedule.

On the Irving side of things, even if you've watched 15 Cavaliers games this season as you say, how does that give you the kind of exposure needed to make this kind of comparison with a player who had an 82-game season his rookie year?

I mean, the statistics and efficiency clearly favor Irving. His PER is the 3rd best ALL-TIME for any guard. Jordan is No. 1 by a wide margin and Kyrie is a fraction of a point behind CP3 for the No. 2 all-time spot. James, while having a great rookie year, was not on those kinds of levels.

So, you are basically saying that, stats be damned... You are basing it on what you've seen... And you haven't even seen half of Irving's games, by your own admission.

I just don't see how your argument stacks up. I think you know that I've seen every Cavs game this year and I saw every Cavs game in 2003-04. In fact, I've even watched some games/quarters multiple times.

I honestly believed that James was the best player in the league as soon as Shaq began to really fade... So, in my mind, he became the league's best around 2006 and remains in that position today.

Do I think that Irving will reach those kinds of levels? That would be ridiculous for me to expect. Do I think that Irving will be as good in Year 2 as James was in Year 2? Again, a ridiculous expectation considering the massive leap he made.

You won't likely see me making those arguments unless he improves by leaps and bounds.

However, comparing their respective rookie seasons and the way Irving has consistently (as in every night) taken over games down the stretch... Yeah, I think he is a more effective and more productive player during Year 1. And, this is one of the most remarkable rookie seasons I have ever seen.

The statistics point to that but, more importantly, I can see it with my own two eyes. And, it is also completely showing in the Cavs win totals, which is better through 44 games this season than it was in 2003-04 with less talent (especially with Varejao missing most of the season).

So, dismiss my opinion if you'd like, but I feel like I have a very firm grasp on both players' careers up to this point... Kyrie has had a better season. He'll have to do a ridiculous amount of work this offseason to approach James' second season.

How on earth is that remotely unreasonable? :oldlol:

You are just pulling out the now classic, "You are a Cavs guy so you couldn't possibly have a valid opinion on this," which is a total cop-out.

[RedBlackAttack]

Or they could decrease as is often the case with rookies.
Except, his is actually going up... And the season is headed into its stretch run. We don't exactly have a small sample size, here. There are 22 games left in a 66 game season and he has a PER of 21.92.... Which is absolutely remarkable.